1
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,680
Speaker 1: You are listening to Ruthie's Table four in partnership with Montclair.

2
00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,440
Speaker 2: We've only just met, but I'm sure Claire Saffatts and

3
00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:11,440
Speaker 2: I will be friends forever. Being a modern woman, I

4
00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,640
Speaker 2: know all about her from her beautiful and brilliant YouTube

5
00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,599
Speaker 2: and instagrams, the closest I guess I'll ever come to

6
00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,439
Speaker 2: dating online, though I'd have a lot of competition dating Claire.

7
00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,520
Speaker 2: She has over a million followers who love her. Claire

8
00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,200
Speaker 2: is open and she is honest. She shares with us

9
00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:33,080
Speaker 2: the challenges of baking and of life in general. She's

10
00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:35,680
Speaker 2: a star in a new era of food writers who

11
00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,879
Speaker 2: are experts in their knowledge, passionate about their craft, rigorous

12
00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,720
Speaker 2: about their work. Claire measured in history and literature at Harvard,

13
00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,600
Speaker 2: pursuing her career as an academic. Then one day, in

14
00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:51,280
Speaker 2: her own words, almost by accident, she became the host

15
00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:55,600
Speaker 2: of her own cooking show. Claire has also written two cookbooks,

16
00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,320
Speaker 2: Dessert Person and What's for Dessert, both of which are

17
00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,440
Speaker 2: New York Times best sellers. I've come to New York

18
00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,640
Speaker 2: to meet Claire the Dessert Person, and most of all,

19
00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,640
Speaker 2: my new best friend. One million other friends. I'm not worried.

20
00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,280
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you so much for having me.

21
00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:14,160
Speaker 2: It's great to see you. And here we are in

22
00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:16,800
Speaker 2: New York, beautiful day after the eclipse. Did you see

23
00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:17,319
Speaker 2: the eclipse?

24
00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:18,960
Speaker 1: It was clowny where I was. Oh, it was in

25
00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:24,440
Speaker 1: Hudson Valley. We're in Orange County, sort of far from

26
00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:25,120
Speaker 1: the Cat's Skills.

27
00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it was born in Monticello.

28
00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,280
Speaker 1: Oh, we're not too far. We're actually very close. It

29
00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,160
Speaker 1: was clear all day until about three pm, and then

30
00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:34,119
Speaker 1: I couldn't see anything.

31
00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:36,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. Great thing about being here us today was the

32
00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,880
Speaker 2: amount of people on the streets, in the on the rooftops.

33
00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:44,240
Speaker 2: The people want to share seeing something, don't they. You know,

34
00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,720
Speaker 2: it was so beautiful to see the kind of movement

35
00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:49,680
Speaker 2: on the streets of everybody on the streets.

36
00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:51,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. New York comes alive in spring.

37
00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,320
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, I really And today is a beautiful day.

38
00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,400
Speaker 2: So we're here and I am so happy to meet you.

39
00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,600
Speaker 2: And my favorite dessert is vanilla ice cream, and it's

40
00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:03,680
Speaker 2: the one you went right too. So would you like

41
00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:04,080
Speaker 2: to read it?

42
00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:08,400
Speaker 1: I'd love to, Okay, vanilla ice cream one point seventy

43
00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,560
Speaker 1: five liters double cream, four hundred and fifty mili liters

44
00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:16,880
Speaker 1: whole milk, four fresh vanilla pods, split lengthways, fifteen egg yolks,

45
00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,400
Speaker 1: three hundred and fifty grams cast or sugar. Combine the

46
00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,320
Speaker 1: cream and milk in a large saucepan. Scrape the vanilla

47
00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,640
Speaker 1: seeds out of the pods into the pan using a knife.

48
00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,080
Speaker 1: Then add the pods to heat until just below boiling point.

49
00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,840
Speaker 1: Remove from the heat. Beat the egg yolks and sugar

50
00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,480
Speaker 1: together until pale and thick. Pour a little of the

51
00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,760
Speaker 1: warm cream into the eggyoak mixture and stir. Return this

52
00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:39,520
Speaker 1: to the rest of the cream in the saucepan, and

53
00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:42,240
Speaker 1: cook gently over a low heat, stirring constantly to prevent

54
00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,239
Speaker 1: the custard from curdling. When the custard is thickened enough

55
00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:47,440
Speaker 1: to coat the back of the spoon, strain it into

56
00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,080
Speaker 1: a heatproof bowl and leave to cool. Pour into an

57
00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:51,880
Speaker 1: ice cream machine and churn until frozen.

58
00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:55,640
Speaker 2: What made you choose a vanilla ice cream?

59
00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:57,799
Speaker 1: I have a memory of culinary school and went to

60
00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,520
Speaker 1: culinary school in Paris at age It was twenty four

61
00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,440
Speaker 1: to twenty five, and I did a sort of general

62
00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:05,880
Speaker 1: culinary program, so I didn't focus on pastry, even though

63
00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,919
Speaker 1: now I'm mostly a baker, but we had one day

64
00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,880
Speaker 1: a week of pastry, and I was very influenced by

65
00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:16,120
Speaker 1: our chef. Chef Antoine was our pastry chef in culinary school.

66
00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,320
Speaker 1: And I remember the day that we made vanilla ice cream.

67
00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:22,520
Speaker 1: We were doing all the custards and he, you know,

68
00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:24,240
Speaker 1: he was late in his career. He had worked at

69
00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,160
Speaker 1: lots of tiv Aut, like lots of three Michelin star

70
00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,160
Speaker 1: restaurants in Paris, and we made vanilla ice cream and

71
00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:31,560
Speaker 1: he took it out of the ice cream machine and

72
00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:33,240
Speaker 1: he tasted it, and he just got this look on

73
00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,600
Speaker 1: a total sort of like exalted look on his face,

74
00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:38,720
Speaker 1: and he was just like, I love anell ice cream.

75
00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,000
Speaker 1: It's the best thing there is. And so that was

76
00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,520
Speaker 1: really formative, and he was right. It really is the

77
00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,920
Speaker 1: most delicious dessert. I love dairy based desserts. I love

78
00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,800
Speaker 1: dairy in general. Vanilla is one of the most unique,

79
00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:56,360
Speaker 1: incredible flavors that comes from the earth. So I just

80
00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,560
Speaker 1: think it's the most perfect dessert that there.

81
00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:03,520
Speaker 2: Is, because I do too when I go to the

82
00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,520
Speaker 2: River Cafe now, and I know every dessert I've made,

83
00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,320
Speaker 2: every dessert, and I love, you know, I just love them,

84
00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,160
Speaker 2: but they almost don't ask me anymore. They just bring

85
00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,440
Speaker 2: ice cream, right, And I think, do you make your

86
00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:18,560
Speaker 2: ice cream in the same way? Do you use the

87
00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:19,440
Speaker 2: vanilla pods?

88
00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:21,760
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean I like, I like this recipe because

89
00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:24,880
Speaker 1: it has a lot of vanilla, which is great. But

90
00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:26,400
Speaker 1: I do make ice cream at home. I got an

91
00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:28,800
Speaker 1: ice cream maker last year, a good one. Finally a

92
00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,880
Speaker 1: good one, so you have a good result. But I like,

93
00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:33,600
Speaker 1: you know, I went to colony school in France, so

94
00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,080
Speaker 1: I like the cramong glass base and lass egg yolks

95
00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,200
Speaker 1: and make the most delicious ice cream.

96
00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:41,360
Speaker 2: And so if we're going back, because I would love

97
00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,039
Speaker 2: to talk to you more about coming, you know, to

98
00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,360
Speaker 2: pastry and how you came there and going to France

99
00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,760
Speaker 2: to learn to cook, because again there's a similarity there

100
00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:52,919
Speaker 2: that my living in Paris, as I did as an

101
00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:57,480
Speaker 2: adult working in an architect's office. It was there that

102
00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,599
Speaker 2: I decided to become a cook, and I went to

103
00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,080
Speaker 2: do you know, the Mastering in the Art of French cooking.

104
00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,920
Speaker 2: Of course, I'm so old that Simone Beck was living

105
00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,280
Speaker 2: in Paris, and I somehow got in touch with her

106
00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,040
Speaker 2: and asked her if I could have some time with her,

107
00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:13,599
Speaker 2: and so I used to go to her apartment in

108
00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,120
Speaker 2: the sixteenth Wow, this is about me, and I want

109
00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,559
Speaker 2: to talk about you. So tell me. Tell me about

110
00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:20,960
Speaker 2: growing up in your house, Tell me about your parents

111
00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:22,240
Speaker 2: and food.

112
00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,320
Speaker 1: I grew up in Saint Louis, Missouri, in the Midwest.

113
00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,200
Speaker 1: I would say it was a very typical kind of

114
00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,880
Speaker 1: suburban childhood of the nineteen nineties. But both of my

115
00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,400
Speaker 1: parents cooked all the time. Mostly both did, yeah, mostly

116
00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,200
Speaker 1: my mom who was home more. My dad worked more.

117
00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:39,320
Speaker 2: What did he do?

118
00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:44,080
Speaker 1: He was actually recently retired. He worked at Washington University

119
00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,680
Speaker 1: Medical School, so he was an academic physician. And that's

120
00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,400
Speaker 1: what brought my family to Saint Louis. They are not

121
00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,240
Speaker 1: originally Midwesterners. My parents there from the East Coast, so

122
00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,200
Speaker 1: they moved out to the Midwest, where my grandma was

123
00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:57,320
Speaker 1: sure we'd never get a bagel. She was very worried.

124
00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,680
Speaker 1: She came, my family came to No, she was just

125
00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:01,960
Speaker 1: family was on the East coast and she was very

126
00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:03,640
Speaker 1: scared that no one would get a bagel. Turns out

127
00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:07,400
Speaker 1: we had a great bagel shop nearby. So and I

128
00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:09,120
Speaker 1: have two older sisters. We were all born in Saint

129
00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,880
Speaker 1: Louis and I just come from a house where cooking

130
00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:17,200
Speaker 1: was very central and we all ate dinner together every

131
00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,280
Speaker 1: night at the table. My mom made dinner almost every night,

132
00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:22,760
Speaker 1: and I think as a child of the nineties, I

133
00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,720
Speaker 1: learned later in life that that wasn't so typical. That

134
00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:29,240
Speaker 1: it's like a lot of my friend's parents both worked,

135
00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,000
Speaker 1: and my mom worked as well, but she was a teacher,

136
00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,719
Speaker 1: so she had more time in the afternoons, so she'd

137
00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,719
Speaker 1: come home and it wasn't uncommon for her to bake

138
00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:39,960
Speaker 1: a loaf of bread in the afternoon, and so we'd

139
00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,039
Speaker 1: have fresh bread for dinner, and she'd make lots of

140
00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:46,520
Speaker 1: soups and everything homemade from scratch. So I grew up

141
00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,320
Speaker 1: with that very normalized and very kind of typical. We

142
00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,479
Speaker 1: started every meal with a green salad where she'd you know,

143
00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,880
Speaker 1: cut up crunchy vegetables and mostly romaine, and she'd put

144
00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,839
Speaker 1: all of oil and redwhe vinegar and some grated parmesan

145
00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,320
Speaker 1: on the salad, and that was how we started our meal,

146
00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:07,200
Speaker 1: and it was really ideal. I think that taught me

147
00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,840
Speaker 1: from a young age about the importance of cooking, and

148
00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,480
Speaker 1: I think my parents also modeled really healthy behavior around food,

149
00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:16,800
Speaker 1: which I think again as a child in the nineties

150
00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,360
Speaker 1: was not so common really. That was the era of

151
00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,920
Speaker 1: like everything was low fat or no fat, with a

152
00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:24,560
Speaker 1: lot of you know a lot of snack foods and

153
00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,280
Speaker 1: prepared foods. So that wasn't really a thing in our house.

154
00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:29,800
Speaker 1: I think I learned I gave me good habits as

155
00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,040
Speaker 1: an adult because I'm not a snacker, you know, I'd

156
00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,120
Speaker 1: like to eat a proper meal. So I'm really grateful

157
00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:40,080
Speaker 1: for the modeling around food and cooking in our house.

158
00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:41,960
Speaker 2: How do you think she did that that she would

159
00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:43,560
Speaker 2: teach and then she would go shopping or do you

160
00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:45,800
Speaker 2: think she'd wake up in the morning and think, I

161
00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:47,200
Speaker 2: know what I'm going to cook today?

162
00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:49,280
Speaker 1: Or did you I have di I really ask her.

163
00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,640
Speaker 1: I mean she has still today a really extensive and

164
00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,880
Speaker 1: well curated recipe box. She did me multiple boxes, really,

165
00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,440
Speaker 1: But I think my mom really liked cooking, so it

166
00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:02,960
Speaker 1: wasn't it was a chore for her, because you know,

167
00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,240
Speaker 1: with family of five, I think it's always going to

168
00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:07,040
Speaker 1: feel like a chore if you do it every night.

169
00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:09,880
Speaker 1: But she also liked it, so I don't really know

170
00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:11,800
Speaker 1: how she decided what she would make, But we would

171
00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:15,600
Speaker 1: have dinners of she would have to me. Looking back,

172
00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,800
Speaker 1: I think that they were really inspired meals. We'd have

173
00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,680
Speaker 1: like french onion soup and crocs one night, and then

174
00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,720
Speaker 1: we'd have what were other sort of typical meals that

175
00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,280
Speaker 1: she would make. We would have like baked potatoes and

176
00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:33,439
Speaker 1: steak and broccoli another night. So we had really well rounded,

177
00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:35,320
Speaker 1: abundant meals.

178
00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:36,800
Speaker 2: Would you ever go in the kitchen?

179
00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,760
Speaker 1: I would help her. We all had chores, my sisters

180
00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,080
Speaker 1: and I, So it was setting the table, clearing the table,

181
00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:45,319
Speaker 1: not so much helping with the dishes. My dad is

182
00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,600
Speaker 1: sort of a mania called dishwasher, and so we were

183
00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,160
Speaker 1: not actually didn't want our help with that, And so

184
00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,680
Speaker 1: I would bake with my mom more often. I was

185
00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,160
Speaker 1: a really studious child, so I would be doing my

186
00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,520
Speaker 1: homework when my mom was making dinner. But on the

187
00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,600
Speaker 1: weekends we would, you know, I would help her baking

188
00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:04,880
Speaker 1: breaking projects.

189
00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,720
Speaker 2: Would you have dessert? Also? Every night you'd have screen salad,

190
00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:09,199
Speaker 2: but go on to the dessert.

191
00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:11,200
Speaker 1: We would have dessert every night.

192
00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:11,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

193
00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:13,400
Speaker 1: It was I mean it was small. It was like

194
00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,000
Speaker 1: a little bit of ice cream after dinner on you know,

195
00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,120
Speaker 1: everyone kind of doing we wouldn't like properly have it

196
00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,640
Speaker 1: at the table, but it was everyone can kind of

197
00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,720
Speaker 1: help himself, and there was no restriction or judgment around food,

198
00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:24,959
Speaker 1: which is really important.

199
00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,599
Speaker 2: And you said your father cooked as well, Yeah, my

200
00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:28,280
Speaker 2: dad cooked.

201
00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:29,960
Speaker 1: It was more of a weekend project. You'd make us

202
00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:33,080
Speaker 1: breakfasts and we'd always have It was very common in

203
00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,360
Speaker 1: my family to had like a Sunday brunch with bagels

204
00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:37,520
Speaker 1: and scrambled eggs and fruit and that kind of thing,

205
00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,840
Speaker 1: and he would cook. One of my earliest food memories

206
00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:45,240
Speaker 1: is my dad sawteg sliced garlic and olive oil to

207
00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:46,840
Speaker 1: make linguini with clams.

208
00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,319
Speaker 2: So where did you live. Where was it you were

209
00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:51,360
Speaker 2: near the No.

210
00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:53,400
Speaker 1: We were in Saint Louis. We had like kind of

211
00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,360
Speaker 1: so in those days. I think he would use canned clams.

212
00:09:58,160 --> 00:09:59,840
Speaker 1: We had a pretty good fish market where a lot

213
00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:01,320
Speaker 1: of the fish came up from the Gulf because we

214
00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:03,600
Speaker 1: were in Saint Louis. So I grew up eating fish,

215
00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,080
Speaker 1: but not like not like here in New York. But

216
00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,800
Speaker 1: that memory, and especially the smell memory of the garlic

217
00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:12,360
Speaker 1: and olive oil, I still to this day I think

218
00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:14,480
Speaker 1: that there is no better smell in the entire world

219
00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:16,040
Speaker 1: than garlic and olive oil.

220
00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:18,920
Speaker 2: And sometimes you need that smell that you I mean, yeah,

221
00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:20,920
Speaker 2: you know there have been times that I just need

222
00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:21,360
Speaker 2: to have that.

223
00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:24,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very grounding to me just because of how

224
00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,640
Speaker 1: early on I remember that. So in my family, we

225
00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:30,360
Speaker 1: always joke that we discussed the next meal. At the

226
00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:32,040
Speaker 1: current meal. I'll be sitting out for dinner, then we

227
00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,000
Speaker 1: talk about what what are we gonna eat tomorrow?

228
00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,400
Speaker 2: I think that might that might become more common, that

229
00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,520
Speaker 2: there's something about because I remember saying that to my mother.

230
00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:42,280
Speaker 2: She said, well, you know, what are we going to

231
00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,520
Speaker 2: eat tomorrow? So you just was slightly groaning from a

232
00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:47,680
Speaker 2: and but then it's it's fun.

233
00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:48,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fine.

234
00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:50,559
Speaker 2: To get a bed thinking what are we going to

235
00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:52,720
Speaker 2: eat tomorrow? What are we going to wake up to tomorrow?

236
00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:57,040
Speaker 1: We loved a meal plan and yeah.

237
00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,920
Speaker 2: And so your father more about your dad cooking, So

238
00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:01,439
Speaker 2: you would do at the breakfast and he would do

239
00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:07,200
Speaker 2: the weekends. Was it his family that came from Ukraine.

240
00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,800
Speaker 1: It's very fuzzy, yes, and no Ukraine or Russia, we

241
00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,959
Speaker 1: don't really know. It's been actually very difficult to find

242
00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:18,559
Speaker 1: on my mom's side. My mother's grandparents came from Ukraine

243
00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:23,480
Speaker 1: and only spoke Yiddish, and her grandfather before coming to

244
00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,000
Speaker 1: the United States was a baker, which I didn't know

245
00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:27,880
Speaker 1: this until I was an adult, like not even that

246
00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:32,240
Speaker 1: many time. Yes, I was working on my first cookbook

247
00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:33,880
Speaker 1: and I was with my mom because my mom and

248
00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,120
Speaker 1: I cooked together all the time now, and she kind

249
00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,680
Speaker 1: of offhandedly mentioned this. We were in the kitchen together

250
00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:42,559
Speaker 1: and she said, oh, yeah, well, you know, my grandpa

251
00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:44,920
Speaker 1: was a baker, and I had truly never heard that before.

252
00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:49,040
Speaker 1: But it makes sense because we have a small but

253
00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,319
Speaker 1: really important collection of family recipes from her side in

254
00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,520
Speaker 1: the family of you know, sort of Jewish baking recipes,

255
00:11:55,640 --> 00:12:02,520
Speaker 1: so apple cake and mondel bread and poppy seed bread,

256
00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,680
Speaker 1: all these sort of like Eastern European Jewish and.

257
00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,640
Speaker 2: They would have come from your grandmother who has got

258
00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:09,200
Speaker 2: them from her.

259
00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,280
Speaker 1: Yes, mother, Yes, So we have Aunt Tilly's apple cake,

260
00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,320
Speaker 1: which is my grandmother sister was Tilly.

261
00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:15,280
Speaker 2: I haven't Aunt Tilly.

262
00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, a famous, a famous apple cake recipe. Actually my

263
00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,959
Speaker 1: mom submitted it to this is like in the nineties

264
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,240
Speaker 1: Saint Louis Post Dispatch, our local paper, and it won

265
00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:31,079
Speaker 1: Recipe of the Year. So it's a famous apple cake. Famous.

266
00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,199
Speaker 1: It has some it has orange juice in it, and

267
00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:39,319
Speaker 1: it has sour cream, so it's like a very very

268
00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,920
Speaker 1: tender cake and it just has mostly it has just

269
00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,199
Speaker 1: a ton of apples in it, and it's delicious. I've

270
00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:46,600
Speaker 1: made it in a very long time.

271
00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:48,880
Speaker 2: Did your entertain They did.

272
00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,559
Speaker 1: They entertained a lot, And it gave me a false

273
00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,880
Speaker 1: sense of how easy entertaining is because my mom made

274
00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,240
Speaker 1: it look so easy. She was so organized and would

275
00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,680
Speaker 1: always have like be dressed and ready and flowers arranged

276
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,600
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes before people started showing up.

277
00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:11,559
Speaker 2: Not like us, right right, yeah, right.

278
00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,280
Speaker 1: But I grew up, Yeah, I grew up with those

279
00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,920
Speaker 1: kinds of like parties. My dad's you know, fellow faculty

280
00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,760
Speaker 1: from the hospital would come over for parties. And I

281
00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,400
Speaker 1: grew up with that kind of as a kid from

282
00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,319
Speaker 1: the top of the stairs looking down at the party

283
00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,880
Speaker 1: and that the kind of little chit chat and you know,

284
00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,520
Speaker 1: some sort of sound effects of a good party. I

285
00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:34,080
Speaker 1: grew up with.

286
00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,480
Speaker 2: And when you left this dream and you went off too,

287
00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:40,720
Speaker 2: was the first time you left when you went to college?

288
00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:41,160
Speaker 1: Yes?

289
00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:43,959
Speaker 2: And did you what was the food like there? I know,

290
00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,600
Speaker 2: the university, and I know Harvard, and I know so

291
00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:48,840
Speaker 2: I don't you know, what would you be interesting to know?

292
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,559
Speaker 2: What was it like as in terms of food.

293
00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,080
Speaker 1: It was at Harvard. It's most common for students to

294
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,960
Speaker 1: live on campus all four years, so it's not typicult

295
00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,920
Speaker 1: to be in an apartment where you have may kitchen

296
00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:07,040
Speaker 1: and can prepare your meals. So that's what I did.

297
00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:08,640
Speaker 1: I lived in the dorms and we ate in the

298
00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:13,120
Speaker 1: dining halls, which was sort of typical dining hall food.

299
00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:15,880
Speaker 1: They I think right around the time I was a student,

300
00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,760
Speaker 1: they had begun a program to work with local farms,

301
00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,800
Speaker 1: but in Boston that just means you're eating winter squash

302
00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:24,840
Speaker 1: for most of the year. We were just limited in

303
00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,280
Speaker 1: our options, but I would go. I would Actually an

304
00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,960
Speaker 1: interesting anecdote is that my parents moved to the Boston

305
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,040
Speaker 1: area when I started college. My dad's pitch shops, so

306
00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:37,760
Speaker 1: my parents have been in Boston for the last eighteen

307
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,960
Speaker 1: plus years. But it meant that I had a home

308
00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,200
Speaker 1: that I could go to if I wanted to cook.

309
00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:45,200
Speaker 1: So I would go home on the weekends and bake.

310
00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,160
Speaker 1: Sometimes i'd bake pies, and if I just really felt

311
00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,960
Speaker 1: like I wanted to have that kind of domestic time

312
00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,800
Speaker 1: from away from school and academics, and I would do that,

313
00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:57,600
Speaker 1: so I was lucky that I also got to do that.

314
00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,760
Speaker 2: Do you think the smell of baking was powerful as

315
00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:02,840
Speaker 2: the smell of garlic and oil frying in the pan?

316
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:03,960
Speaker 1: I do.

317
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,560
Speaker 2: It is about smell biking, right.

318
00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,440
Speaker 1: My mom. I know when I am so funny in

319
00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:14,240
Speaker 1: my When I first started working up on Epite magazine,

320
00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,400
Speaker 1: we worked in what was the former Gourmet Test kitchen

321
00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,440
Speaker 1: where they really didn't have hoods, and I could I

322
00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,400
Speaker 1: always knew when something was done because I could smell it.

323
00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,440
Speaker 1: And then we moved facilities into a much bigger, newer

324
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:29,400
Speaker 1: kitchen where they had really powerful hoods and I couldn't

325
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,680
Speaker 1: smell anything, and it really kind of screwed me up. Yeah,

326
00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,480
Speaker 1: but baking is very evocative for me of my childhood.

327
00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:40,960
Speaker 1: My mom, we had a outside of my sister's window,

328
00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,640
Speaker 1: we had a sour cherry tree, which is very special.

329
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,720
Speaker 1: Sour Cherries are partly because of my childhood and partly

330
00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:51,040
Speaker 1: just because they're incredible, always my favorite baking fruit, and

331
00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,480
Speaker 1: they're so temporary, so fleeting.

332
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:54,920
Speaker 2: What is this season for us?

333
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:58,640
Speaker 1: Out? It's really early July. It was just about a

334
00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,040
Speaker 1: week or two where you get window because they're very,

335
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,680
Speaker 1: very fragile. When they're ripe, they are so soft, and

336
00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,080
Speaker 1: so they just they go bad so fast. So my

337
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,480
Speaker 1: mom would bake pies with Sara cherries, and we would

338
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,600
Speaker 1: pick the cherries out of my sister's window from her bedroom.

339
00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:16,280
Speaker 1: My mom would be terrified, we're gonna fall out of

340
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,840
Speaker 1: the window. So before the birds could get them, we'd

341
00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:21,400
Speaker 1: try to pick enough cherries.

342
00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:23,600
Speaker 2: Would you preserve them? Would you put them into ours?

343
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:24,280
Speaker 2: We didn't.

344
00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,200
Speaker 1: I wish we had done that. I would do that now.

345
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:31,280
Speaker 2: One of my favorite things is is cherries and grappa,

346
00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,800
Speaker 2: you know, really strong alcohol, and I don't like so

347
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,800
Speaker 2: much in syrup, but the French do it in a

348
00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:42,440
Speaker 2: kind of de v and the and yeah, yeah, I

349
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:42,840
Speaker 2: love that.

350
00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,520
Speaker 1: Yes, my mom would bake pies, just bake pies. Yeah,

351
00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:48,760
Speaker 1: so the smell of pie baking is to me very

352
00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:51,240
Speaker 1: reminiscent of my childhood.

353
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,520
Speaker 2: So you'd go home at the weekends and bake. And

354
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,360
Speaker 2: you were saying, as saying in the introduction that you

355
00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:01,680
Speaker 2: were studying literature and history and the liberal arts education.

356
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:05,639
Speaker 2: But then you had a moment was there a moment

357
00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:07,800
Speaker 2: that you sort of an epiphany when you said, actually,

358
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:09,760
Speaker 2: what I want to do is cook or was that

359
00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,360
Speaker 2: a gradual thing to do it?

360
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,720
Speaker 1: It feels like it was both in a way. When

361
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,199
Speaker 1: I graduated from college, I didn't really know what I

362
00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,320
Speaker 1: wanted to do. I moved back home for the summer,

363
00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:26,000
Speaker 1: and I started cooking basically NonStop. It became the only

364
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,720
Speaker 1: thing that I really I wasn't really motivated to find

365
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,440
Speaker 1: a job, but I was highly motivated to cook dinner

366
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:34,920
Speaker 1: every night for my parents, me and my parents, and

367
00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:36,760
Speaker 1: they kind of loved it, but they also wanted me

368
00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:41,160
Speaker 1: to like figure some stuff out. So that's when actually

369
00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,160
Speaker 1: I got an internship. I moved to New York. That's

370
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,400
Speaker 1: when I became even more serious about cooking and eating

371
00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,480
Speaker 1: and exploring New York's restaurants to the extent that I

372
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:55,600
Speaker 1: could on being like living on a stipend from an internship.

373
00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,960
Speaker 1: Then I applied to culinary school because which one was

374
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:05,840
Speaker 1: a fernde in Paris, which I only applied to one

375
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:07,919
Speaker 1: I was the only one I really knew that much

376
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,560
Speaker 1: about that had been recommended by, you know, a friend

377
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:15,240
Speaker 1: of a friend of a friend. So I pursued culinary

378
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:19,480
Speaker 1: school more as a means to moving to another country.

379
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:21,960
Speaker 1: I wanted to live abroad. I wanted to get that

380
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,320
Speaker 1: education and have that experience. I am. You know, I'm

381
00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,320
Speaker 1: a lover of Julia Child and I just wanted to

382
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:33,440
Speaker 1: be her basically. But I always had the plan to

383
00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:39,119
Speaker 1: presume academics. So after I did that, I went back

384
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,119
Speaker 1: to school and I did a master's in It was

385
00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:44,800
Speaker 1: a master's in history, but with their study a focus

386
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,440
Speaker 1: on culinary history, basically looking at the sort of intellectual

387
00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:53,000
Speaker 1: history of food. And I loved doing that. But about

388
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,520
Speaker 1: halfway through my master's program, I just decided that I

389
00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,800
Speaker 1: missed cooking. I missed that feeling of making something with

390
00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:02,159
Speaker 1: my hands that had always been so important to me.

391
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,159
Speaker 1: So I finished my master's program and that's when I decided, like,

392
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,359
Speaker 1: I think that I have to be making food and

393
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:10,919
Speaker 1: not just reading and writing about it.

394
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,960
Speaker 2: And what did you think that having that academic knowledge,

395
00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,600
Speaker 2: knowing the history, knowing influenced your actual cooking. Do you

396
00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:21,919
Speaker 2: think you would have been with that all that a

397
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,919
Speaker 2: different kind of cook if you didn't know or have that.

398
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,639
Speaker 1: I think it just informs my perspective, my perspective is

399
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:31,959
Speaker 1: just very long, I think when it comes to cooking,

400
00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,520
Speaker 1: because when I would read these like early modern cookbook texts,

401
00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:37,760
Speaker 1: some of it would seem very contemporary.

402
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,800
Speaker 2: What year when when you say early modern, what.

403
00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:45,240
Speaker 1: Year seventeen hundreds for the most part, Yeah, so.

404
00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,000
Speaker 2: That I'm making in seventeen hundreds.

405
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,480
Speaker 1: Oh so most of the books from that period were

406
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:55,080
Speaker 1: written by professional chefs, all men of course, who worked

407
00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,080
Speaker 1: in big houses, big nobile houses or in you know,

408
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,920
Speaker 1: royal households, and they were in the same genre as

409
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,440
Speaker 1: household manual, So how to how to keep a house

410
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:09,200
Speaker 1: in France and England. Yeah, so this is really when

411
00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:11,639
Speaker 1: the these are kind of proto cookbooks like these are

412
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:13,920
Speaker 1: sort of the first examples of cookbooks as we know them.

413
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,440
Speaker 1: And they would talk about how to throw a banquet,

414
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,240
Speaker 1: you know, make this kind of pie, you know, they

415
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,080
Speaker 1: would how to make these sort of sculptural pieces that

416
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,240
Speaker 1: would go sort of in between courses, and you know,

417
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,240
Speaker 1: very like heavily spiced food, sort of food that was

418
00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,280
Speaker 1: not so unlike food of the Middle Ages. Really also

419
00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,240
Speaker 1: where sweet and savory were not divided between. There really

420
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,320
Speaker 1: was no concept of courses. Everything would just be laid

421
00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,640
Speaker 1: out together, so sweet and savory would be mingled. I

422
00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,560
Speaker 1: loved I love reading these books. Yeah, and they were illustrations.

423
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,240
Speaker 1: It's like fascinating. But really just knowing having that knowledge

424
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,719
Speaker 1: makes me realize that, like when I am creating a recipe,

425
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,960
Speaker 1: I'm never really making anything new ever. You know, everything's

426
00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:00,119
Speaker 1: already been made before, and I'm just maybe putting a

427
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,640
Speaker 1: little touch on it or something or changing the proportion.

428
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,920
Speaker 1: So it just gives me that perspective of like someone

429
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,359
Speaker 1: before me has already done this. You know. I'm not

430
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 1: the kind of cook that is so motivated by the

431
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:19,359
Speaker 1: idea of originality, you know, because I just things are

432
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,960
Speaker 1: classic for a reason, you know, these combinations that are

433
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,080
Speaker 1: tried and true, It's because they taste the best, you know.

434
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:31,199
Speaker 1: So I'm never really trying to innovate so much. I

435
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,520
Speaker 1: just want to make the best version of the thing

436
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,480
Speaker 1: that I want to eat, you know. So you know,

437
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:42,159
Speaker 1: when I'm recipe developing, I try to be very honest

438
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 1: and up front of it.

439
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,240
Speaker 2: I noticed that with your food. I noticed that it's

440
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,639
Speaker 2: classic and it's I said, rigorous, you know, And I

441
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 2: think we can all find those ideas recipes, you know,

442
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 2: let's do this, or let's do that. But what we're

443
00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 2: interested in is how to how to make the perfect

444
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,919
Speaker 2: I don't know, tartantan, how do you make I'd like

445
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,480
Speaker 2: to learn how to make a kind of chocolate moss

446
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,640
Speaker 2: that actually has that depth of flavor and not by

447
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,359
Speaker 2: putting something in it that we've never seen or making

448
00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 2: it higher. Which is not to say try it, you know,

449
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:21,120
Speaker 2: try the experimentation. But yeah, that's what we do. That's

450
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 2: what I like about your food, and I like about

451
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:32,879
Speaker 2: the recipes that you cook. The River Cafe is excited.

452
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,639
Speaker 2: We're opening the River Cafe Cafe. Come for a morning

453
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,959
Speaker 2: Briotian cappuccino, a plate of seasonal antiposity on the terrace,

454
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,480
Speaker 2: or an ice cream or a paratubo in the sun.

455
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,919
Speaker 2: We can't wait to open and we cannot wait to

456
00:22:48,960 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 2: welcome you. So you're becoming a chef in New York

457
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 2: right doing with Bone Appetite. And then how did you

458
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,879
Speaker 2: seg by into doing it on your own and working

459
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 2: by yourself?

460
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,920
Speaker 1: So I started working at Bone Epetee in the test

461
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 1: kitchen almost right out of grad school. I got so

462
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 1: lucky to have gotten that job when I did, and

463
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 1: I was thrilled. I could not have been happier. I

464
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 1: get to move back to New York, which I really

465
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 1: wanted to do, and I just thought that food media

466
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 1: was truly like the perfect place for me because I

467
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 1: got to make food and I got to write about it,

468
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:36,360
Speaker 1: and that it really was. I started as a recipe tester,

469
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 1: so I wasn't developing recipes, but the food editors would develop.

470
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:42,679
Speaker 1: They would go through a series of tastings and then

471
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,639
Speaker 1: write the recipe and then I would get it and

472
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 1: I was sort of the last person to touch that

473
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 1: recipe in the kitchen before it would get published. So

474
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 1: it was my job to flag anything that didn't work.

475
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:55,160
Speaker 1: And I learned so much about recipe writing and development

476
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 1: during that time. I think it's so essential to learn

477
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 1: how to test a recipe if you want to do development.

478
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 1: And then I got promoted and I became, you know,

479
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 1: went through all the different levels in the magazine world

480
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:14,200
Speaker 1: of like associate editor, you know, assistant editor, associate. I

481
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 1: think I was senior associate, and then senior finally, so

482
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,920
Speaker 1: I was there for five years and developing recipes the

483
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 1: whole time, and I just got to the point in

484
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 1: the magazine cycle of like, I don't know if I

485
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,159
Speaker 1: can do another Christmas issue. I don't know if I

486
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 1: could do another Thanksgiving issue, summer grilling. It's very repetitive.

487
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 1: So I just sort of thought after five cycles of

488
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 1: doing that that it was time to move on. But

489
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 1: I had also begun to do video as part of,

490
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,160
Speaker 1: you know, my job in the test kitchen. I worked

491
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: for bon Epte, which was part of Conde Nast, and

492
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 1: they had this big, beautiful new space at the World

493
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: Trade Center and they had, you know, a video team.

494
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 1: So I started doing some video hosting app on epetit

495
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 1: with you know, basically like no training in that I

496
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 1: hadn't had any experience in front of the camera. I

497
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: didn't really want to do that as part of my career.

498
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: It just happened, so and it was extremely successful. And

499
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 1: I did this show called Gourmey Makes where I like

500
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: reverse engineered I basically knew that I liked to bake,

501
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: and they were like, well, we can have Claire. We

502
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 1: could hire a pastry chef, you know, from a restaurant

503
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 1: in New York to come in and do this, or

504
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 1: we could just have Claire do it and she's already

505
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 1: on staff and we already pay her. So I started

506
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:34,919
Speaker 1: doing that show. She was really successful, but I just

507
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,120
Speaker 1: was like, I think I've been doing this long enough.

508
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 1: I want to kind of do my own thing.

509
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 2: So did you like the desserts that you were being

510
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 2: given to before?

511
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,160
Speaker 1: You know, I mentioned earlier that like I didn't really

512
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 1: grow up with a lot of store bought food. Yeah,

513
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 1: so I was sort of you know, like the first

514
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 1: thing they had me make was a Twinkie. It's like,

515
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 1: I don't even know if I'd ever eaten it before.

516
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 2: It's not to describe a tweaky the audience, the American

517
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 2: audience when the Twinkie is a kind of roll with cream.

518
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:13,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a bar shaped cake individually wrapped with

519
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: a cream filling. But it's not cream c R E

520
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: A M. It's c R E M E, which is

521
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 1: they can't actually call it cream filling because it has

522
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: the area.

523
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

524
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: So, you know, a lot of the things that I

525
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 1: was trying to recreate were not in and of themselves

526
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,159
Speaker 1: really food. They were like things that are edible but

527
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 1: are really not food because it's all packaged stuff. So

528
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: that was really my job was like I'm going to

529
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: make this into you know, actual food that someone could

530
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 1: make and that you could eat. So I learned a

531
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,199
Speaker 1: lot doing it. I don't think that like in and

532
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: of itself, the task of making a I'm trying to

533
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: think of other swinging. I made Twizzler the other you know,

534
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: it was like so useful, But I learned a lot,

535
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,120
Speaker 1: and I think it helped me become a better recipe

536
00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: developer and also just to understand more of the problems

537
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: solving process. So I left in twenty eighteen, so I

538
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 1: was no longer on staff, and that's when I started

539
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 1: writing my first cookbook, which is Desert Person.

540
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, tell us about Dessert Person.

541
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. Dessert Person is a book of all the stuff

542
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: that I like to bake and eat. It's not all sweet.

543
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,360
Speaker 1: There's some savory baking because baking. Part of the thesis

544
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 1: of the book is that baking can be many different things,

545
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: and it can be dinner, and it can you know,

546
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: it's not just sweets. But really it's a book about

547
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 1: kind of not restricting your sing oneself and not sort

548
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:43,120
Speaker 1: of assigning morality to food and not saying that some

549
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 1: food is good or bad or thinking that you know

550
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: you're doing something wrong by eating dessert. You know, it's

551
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: just not how I think about it, and so that's

552
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 1: kind of what that's kind of the underpinnings of the book.

553
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,199
Speaker 1: It's sort of like, it's okay to eat dessert, and

554
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,479
Speaker 1: we should celebrate it, and you know, food is one

555
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: of life's great pleasures, if not a great pleasure, so

556
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: you might as well enjoy it. I still look upon

557
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 1: it so fondly and with a lot of pride, because

558
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: it was a book that really felt at the time

559
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: like the culmination of everything I had learned about pastry

560
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: and cooking, but also about eating and about the kinds

561
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 1: of foods that I like to eat, and about my

562
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: style of baking. And so it's very you know, fresh

563
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: produce driven, it's very seasonal. There's fruit deserts are kind

564
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 1: of my favorite kinds of dessert, so there's tons of

565
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: fruit in it.

566
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 2: Tell us about food deserts. If somebody's listening to this

567
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: and you want to tell them about which they should

568
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 2: be thinking about when they think about fruit desserts. What

569
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,719
Speaker 2: is this month? Now? This is April, yes, So what

570
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 2: are we thinking about right now?

571
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: Oh? Right now, I'm just waiting until we get strawberries,

572
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 1: which in New York will still be, you know, at

573
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: least a month. So I have a kind of a

574
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: hierarchy of fruit desserts. Okay, I think the top fruit

575
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: dessert is as I mentioned, sour cherry. I think there

576
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: is like no better baking fruit. And then after that apples.

577
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: Apples are just an incredible specific Actually my favorite apple.

578
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:13,719
Speaker 1: And you know, I live in New York, which is

579
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: truly like the land of apples. There's like hundreds and

580
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: hundreds of varieties. My favorite is called gold rush. Have

581
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: you ever had a gold rush apple? They are It

582
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: is the firmest apple I've ever tried, to the point

583
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: where if you want to eat one out of hand,

584
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 1: it almost hurts your mouth to bite into. But the

585
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: flavor is incredible, like honey and lemon and even almost

586
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: like tropical fruit. It's so complex and is so amazing

587
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: for its sweet tart balance, and they hold together incredibly

588
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 1: well when you bake them.

589
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 2: So if you were making a tartai tan back to

590
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 2: the tarta tent, would you use that for gold rush?

591
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: Yeah?

592
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 2: Because it is challenging. I think when you when you

593
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 2: make it, let's talk about.

594
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: I love I love making it and I love eating it.

595
00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, And what is your and so you have these

596
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 2: star with the apple. Can you tell me about your tartata?

597
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: Yes, I've made it so many different ways. So the

598
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: kind of classic way is just to make your caramel

599
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: and your skillet and then add your apples and cook them.

600
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: And there's all these tricks of like you can dry

601
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: out your apples in advance by peeling them and cutting

602
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: them and keeping them in the fridge.

603
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 2: Do you cut the apples in half? Of do you

604
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 2: cut them in pieces?

605
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: I sort of cut them in lobes, like I cut

606
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: around the core, so I end up with pieces that

607
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: are slightly different sizes, which can be useful for tucking

608
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: them into the gaps because there is a lot of

609
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: they lose moisture and with a shrink shrink, So I

610
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: like to actually pre cook my apples. I think it

611
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: just takes out some of the variability. So I like

612
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: to cook. I actually roast my apples in caramel before

613
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 1: I assemble the whole thing, because what doesn't make sense

614
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: about tartata is putting cold pastry on warm apples, and

615
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: I like to avoid doing that because it just feels

616
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 1: so wrong. So I like to I roast my apple

617
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: in caramel covered really tightly in a low oven until

618
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: they're soft, and then they cool in the caramel and

619
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: they kind of absorb. Like the best thing about tart

620
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: tatan is the way the apple's candy in the caramel

621
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: and you cut into them, but apples have absorbed the

622
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: caramel all the way through. It's not just like they

623
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: have a ring of it around, and then the flesh

624
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: is white on the inside, so this really facilitates that.

625
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: And then I just lay the apples there. You know,

626
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: there's already they're already sort of imbued with that caramel.

627
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: I lay them in, put the pastry on top. Everything's cold,

628
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: which is great, and then into the oven. It was

629
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: more work. It's not that kind of spontaneous like cooking

630
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 1: on the stove and throwing the whole thing in the oven.

631
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 2: But I came from Paris. That was always the dessert

632
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 2: that I wanted to perfect. And we had a tiny,

633
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 2: tiny kitchen was so tiny that you couldn't actually put

634
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 2: an oven in there, so we made a window and

635
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 2: stuck back that looked like an air conditioner from the road,

636
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 2: but it was the oven. And I actually it's interesting

637
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 2: to hear you say that, because that's how I did

638
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 2: the dark dead to him because what you will, they

639
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 2: do shrink and they do. The whole point is to

640
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 2: have the caramel and to have them dark brown, and

641
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 2: to have them really strong. And I think that's how

642
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 2: I ended up making them in two stages.

643
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 1: That texture of like a soft but not mushy apple

644
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 1: that's sort of caramelized all the way through and that's

645
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: spooning into it is just one of the most satisfying

646
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: food textures for me.

647
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 2: There are so many books out there, cookbooks and dessert books,

648
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 2: and this book was a huge success, wasn't it. What

649
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 2: do you think that was due to? Why do you

650
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 2: think your book reached so many people?

651
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: I do think a lot of it was the timing.

652
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: It came out in the fall of twenty twenty.

653
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 2: Oh was it.

654
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: Not a great time all around, but a great time

655
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: for a cookbook, for a baking book. People were making

656
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: banana bread.

657
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 2: Like crazy in England as well. I have more text

658
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 2: messages which include a loaf of bread than practically anything

659
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 2: right else? Right?

660
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: How do I make the sweeple text? How do I

661
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: make it right?

662
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 2: I would zoom cool? And you know, FaceTime cooking with

663
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 2: friends of mine's children or trying to get I tried

664
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 2: to get perfect. Do you have a perfect chocolate chip cookie?

665
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: I do, and it's a dessert person. Yeah, it's so good.

666
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 2: Good? Is it a thin one?

667
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: It's a thin with like the very outer edges crispy

668
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: and the rest of it is chewy, and it gets

669
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: it kind of wrinkled because it's a thinner cookie has

670
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,239
Speaker 1: a higher proportion of butter, so it gets it kind

671
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: of wrinkled edge, which I love. And it has both

672
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: dark chocolate and milk chocolate in it. You just break

673
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: it up, yes, yeah, so chopped up from a bar

674
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 1: and a brown the butter which oh, that combination of

675
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: the brown butter plus brown sugar plus vanilla, it gives

676
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: you so much of that intense butter scotch flavor, which

677
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 1: I love.

678
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 2: Do you think that this book in your books and

679
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 2: your influence? How much does that coincide with being visual online,

680
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 2: being on YouTube, being Instagram? What do you feel about

681
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 2: the New Revolution and food?

682
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: I mean, I have to say that I am in

683
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: favor of it because I'm a part of it, but

684
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:15,280
Speaker 1: I have my I have my mixed feelings. I think overall,

685
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 1: I think there's it's so easy to be to feel overexposed,

686
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: and to just think that you can turn your normal

687
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: daily activities into content and to sort of always be visible,

688
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 1: which I don't like, don't I don't actually post on

689
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: Instagram that frequently, and I'm told that I need to

690
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: do it more. But you know, I like to keep

691
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:37,720
Speaker 1: very private actually, and I like to keep my private

692
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: life private. But I try to remain rooted in the

693
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: idea that visual medium for food is the best. It's

694
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:49,919
Speaker 1: so much easier to teach someone how to make something

695
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 1: when you can think to write the words on a page.

696
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,320
Speaker 1: So that's where I come from. I come from a

697
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: place of teaching when it comes to YouTube and you know,

698
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 1: just video and social media in general. I hope that

699
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 1: we still need cookbooks. I think that cookbooks are important

700
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 1: from like it's not really about individual recipes. It's about like,

701
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 1: what is this a book really saying? What is it?

702
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: Sort of like what's the lifestyle? It's it's advocating for

703
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 1: what is the kind of approach to food that is

704
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: taken as a whole. When you look at the entire book,

705
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,360
Speaker 1: it's not just you know, one hundred recipes put together

706
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 1: in a specific order. It's really much more than that.

707
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 1: It's about a sort of whole, the way this person

708
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 1: is conceiving of, you know, the work, the work that

709
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 1: they're doing, and the work of home cooking. So I

710
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 1: do think we still need cookbooks. I wonder for myself

711
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: if I am going to keep writing them, because it's like,

712
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: once you said everything there is to say, I'm like,

713
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 1: I don't know.

714
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 2: I always say that I think that you know, often

715
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 2: thing we've done thirteen or fourteen, I can't remember, but

716
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,720
Speaker 2: I think that I alwa often say does a world

717
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 2: need another cookbook? Yeah? And I do keep doing them

718
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,280
Speaker 2: because I just love doing them. For me to actually

719
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 2: work with, it's so collaborative. We work in a very

720
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 2: collaborative way. So we immediately start working with the photographers,

721
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 2: with the designers. We sit around the table and we

722
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:14,839
Speaker 2: always cook something and then we taste it and then

723
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 2: we say, let's do it this way, let's change the recipe.

724
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 2: And so for us, I think it's one of the

725
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:24,720
Speaker 2: joys of life. It's about informing and it's always aspirational.

726
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 2: I think that people I think they once did a

727
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 2: study of Gourmet magazine, which you mentioned and I grew

728
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 2: up with, and I think maybe. Nora Efron wrote an

729
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,280
Speaker 2: essay saying, have you ever cooked a recipe from Gourmet?

730
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 2: And it was kind of true that you'd buy the

731
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 2: magazine and you'd say, I'm going to make that, I'm

732
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 2: going to be a better person, I'm going to do this,

733
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 2: and then put the magazine down, and you know didn't.

734
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: So right, That's how I tend to read cookbooks, and

735
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 1: I'm not ever I'm basically never making recipes out of cookbooks.

736
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: I mean, I shouldn't say maybe literally never am I

737
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,320
Speaker 1: making recipes out of cookbooks? But I read them. Yeah,

738
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 1: And that's exactly why, because I want to sort of

739
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 1: see I love the photography, and I want to see

740
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 1: the types of recipes, and I love the other sort

741
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 1: of ancillary writing. Sometimes there's essays, so like Martha, the

742
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 1: same thing with Martha Stewart, who's her one hundred book

743
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 1: is coming out, which is blows my mind, but I

744
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:22,399
Speaker 1: think one hundred yeah, so yeah, like I'm that's why

745
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 1: I'm buying and reading cookbooks, not so much because I

746
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: think it's going to help me, you know, make dinner

747
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 1: on a Tuesday. I can already make dinner on a man.

748
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 2: If you like listening to Ruthie's table for Would you

749
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 2: please make sure to rate and review the podcast on

750
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, o wherever you get

751
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 2: your podcasts. Thank you.

752
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: We went to London a few months ago and we

753
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: had lunch at the River Cafe and then we took

754
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,760
Speaker 1: the train to Paris and we're in Paris for a while.

755
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 1: And I hadn't been back to Paris since I lived

756
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: there for Connory School had been over ten years. So

757
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 1: it was a very emotional trip for me and I

758
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 1: had the best time, and I want my husband. We'd

759
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 1: never been to Europe together.

760
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:20,320
Speaker 2: Who is a chef?

761
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,760
Speaker 1: So it's a chef, yes, what is he doing? Before

762
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: we met, he had been a chef in New York

763
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 1: restaurants for ten years at a couple of places that

764
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 1: are now closed. Then he really left kitchens for a

765
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: long time and went into sort of restaurant operations. And

766
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: so he has a restaurant that he runs in Chelsea Market.

767
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: It's Burgers and Sheiks, and they partner with this incredible

768
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,799
Speaker 1: dairy farm in the Hudson Valley called Ronnie Brook. Maybe

769
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 1: Ronnie Brook Dairy, Yeah, just like a big New York dairy.

770
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,240
Speaker 1: Actually they're not big, but in New York they're just

771
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,280
Speaker 1: very sort of an iconic like New York Dairy brand.

772
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 1: And now he's actually returned to kitchens and he's cooking

773
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 1: at a place in the Catskills. It's called the Tasting

774
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 1: Room at Catskill Distillery. So he's partnering with this woman

775
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 1: named Claire Marin and she has this distillery up in

776
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 1: Calicoon and she makes honey and maple syrup, and so

777
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: he's cooking at the restaurant.

778
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 2: There. There's a real emergence or emergence of local produce,

779
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 2: isn't it People going back to the fairy, to the

780
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 2: farms to know, especially in the Hudson River Valley.

781
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're surrounded by farms everywhere we look.

782
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 2: And what are you working on now?

783
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 1: Right now? I've really begun pretty serious, dedicated work on

784
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 1: my next book, which is savory, mostly savory. The sort

785
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 1: of central thesis of this book is that if you

786
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: want to live the best life, you have to cook.

787
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 1: So it's really kind of a meditation on how to

788
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:57,799
Speaker 1: live well by cooking for oneself and for you know,

789
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 1: your friends and family. So it's pretty it's pretty expansive

790
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: and comprehensive. It's sort of it's like kind of meals

791
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:11,800
Speaker 1: for every occasion, from breakfast to a snack to entertaining

792
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: to holidays. So it's really it's actually very driven by

793
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: eating rather than cooking, because I always make a distinction

794
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: between there's the things that you love to cook and

795
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 1: the things that you love to eat.

796
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 2: That distinction.

797
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,800
Speaker 1: For instance, I love cooking. I mean I love French food.

798
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 1: So it's like I love cooking kind of multi step

799
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 1: French recipes like I love cassoulet. I love cooking it.

800
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:44,439
Speaker 1: I don't totally love eating it. It's a lot very heavy,

801
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 1: just very like nutrient dense, you know, it's beans and

802
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: lots of different meats. But I love cooking it. So

803
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 1: it's like I love making it for an occasion.

804
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:53,240
Speaker 2: What do you love about cooking?

805
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 1: I love slowness, the slowness. I love simmering beans. The

806
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,839
Speaker 1: beans themselves are so delicious that tar bay beans, which

807
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 1: I always make a point to get. I love the process,

808
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:09,280
Speaker 1: the kind of layering of the flavors and the long cooking,

809
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: and I love assembling that kind of when you get

810
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 1: to like layer the beans with all the different you know,

811
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 1: the garlic sausage and the dot confie and all that,

812
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 1: but not my favorite thing to eat. So this new

813
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 1: book is really driven by the things that I'd love

814
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 1: to eat most.

815
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 2: So give me five.

816
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, okay too well, so it's funny. The

817
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 1: book is savory, but of course there's lots of dessert.

818
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 1: There has to be, because that's it's proportionate to the

819
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 1: amount of dessert that I eat in my life compared

820
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 1: to savory food, which is maybe like five, you know,

821
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 1: one to five or something. I just made like a

822
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 1: very simple pistachio cake, super simple, and make it in

823
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 1: the food processor, because you start just by grinding toasted

824
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 1: pistachios and then you just add all your.

825
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 2: Other ingredients in pour butter, sugar.

826
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, basically eggs, very egg heavy.

827
00:41:59,160 --> 00:41:59,919
Speaker 2: Do you do it in love?

828
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 1: I did it just as a single layer so that

829
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 1: you can get I just sprinkled some confection of sugar

830
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 1: and toasted pistachios over top. Not too sweet, you know,

831
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 1: all my desserts are really not too sweet, so you

832
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:16,280
Speaker 1: can taste it's supposed to taste like something else with sugar.

833
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 1: What else? Lots of salads? I mean, I'm a vegetable lover.

834
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 1: I haven't talked about that yet, but I know I haven't.

835
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: I love vegetables like I love like a soft cooked

836
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 1: green beani, just really simple, like you know, one of

837
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 1: the ingredients that I use most in the kitchen is

838
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: rock garlic, because I think that heat is so important

839
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 1: and nothing else is really like it. So the other

840
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 1: day I was just I made some sort of soft

841
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 1: cooked green beans, but just olive oil and lemon and

842
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 1: a lot of rock garlic, a lot of sort of

843
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 1: flaky salt.

844
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 2: And better, aren't I think the other difference between Italian

845
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 2: food and French food is that Italians don't understand the

846
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:56,479
Speaker 2: word identic except for pasta, and all their vegetables are

847
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,839
Speaker 2: really cooked. You know. I don't know why, and i'd

848
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 2: be careful because so British. But when the British overcooked vegetables,

849
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,840
Speaker 2: you can't eat them. And when the Italians overcome vegetables,

850
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 2: they are really delicious. I think it is the olive oil.

851
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 2: I think that, you know, it's a very and also

852
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 2: the ingredient, but it is. You know, my mother in law,

853
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,240
Speaker 2: who's at time, never had anything crispy and a vegetable

854
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 2: undercooked broccoli or undercooked green beans. Yeah, it's very whereas

855
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 2: the French do have you know, just blatched green beans right,

856
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:27,840
Speaker 2: which you're delicious too, But I do like would you

857
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 2: call soft?

858
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 1: I don't want them to be so cooked that they

859
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,800
Speaker 1: lose their color and vibrancy and that the freshness of flavor.

860
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: But I don't want it to have some of the

861
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: I want all the rawness gone. So it's that kind

862
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 1: of special like window of cooking. I just I mean,

863
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: all the food I love is simple.

864
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:47,399
Speaker 2: It's like I.

865
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: Just want like them.

866
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 2: And this book will be at one twenty twenty six.

867
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 1: Oh okay, I have a while, but I really need

868
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 1: to work on it.

869
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 2: Better go home and work. Before you do, go home

870
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 2: and work, I'd like to ask you one question I

871
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 2: ask everyone. Food is sharing? Food? Is what your mother

872
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 2: did to get her children around the table, to have

873
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 2: her children around the table too. I'd love to meet

874
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 2: your mother because it sounds like she created this home

875
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 2: and comfort for you all, And so I would ask you, Claire, well,

876
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 2: if you had a comfort food, the food that you

877
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 2: went to for comfort, what would that be?

878
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: When I think of comfort food, I think of potatoes.

879
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 1: You know something I eat from such a young age

880
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:34,359
Speaker 1: and is truly still one of my favorite things to eat.

881
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 1: And you can make a potato a million different ways,

882
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,240
Speaker 1: but to me, just like a buttered a buttered potato,

883
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: which is something that we ate when I was a kid,

884
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 1: like a steamed or boiled potato with some salt and

885
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 1: pepper and butter on. It is still something that like,

886
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,959
Speaker 1: I would eat it every day. It's so delicious and

887
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: the kind of heat and steam from the inside, and

888
00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:00,839
Speaker 1: the starchiness and the kind of you know, the kind

889
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 1: of blank slate that potatoes are, and then just like

890
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 1: a little bit of a little bit of butter, last seasoning. Yeah, yeah,

891
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 1: my mom would make like parsley potatoes, which yeah, just

892
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 1: just butter and parsley and salt, pepper, and to this

893
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,919
Speaker 1: day is such a comforting food for me. I love

894
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: it well.

895
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 2: I look forward to seeing the recipes for potatoes in

896
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 2: your book and to seeing more of you. And thank

897
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:25,959
Speaker 2: you so much for coming.

898
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 1: This was such a pleasure. Thank you so much, Thank you,

899
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Ruthie's Table four in partnership

900
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 1: with Montclair