1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 2 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime. 3 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 6 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: compelling true crimes, and. 7 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 2: I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new 8 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:26,079 Speaker 2: insights to old mysteries. 9 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 10 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens. 11 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones. 13 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,119 Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you today? 14 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:05,479 Speaker 1: I'm doing well. How about you? 15 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 2: I am hanging in there. 16 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: I want to jump into talking about a main character 17 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: in the case that we're going to talk about, and 18 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: it's a pathologist named Bernard Spillsbury, who I'm sure has 19 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: resonated with you because he was in two of our cases. 20 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: So he was in the Crumbles Beach case and he 21 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: was in the doctor Crippen case. So Spillsbury has come 22 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: up and I've said that he's just been incredibly respected. 23 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: Do you remember him? And kind of hearing his name. 24 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, the name is very familiar. I do 25 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 2: vaguely remember his role in most notably the Crippen Case. However, 26 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,919 Speaker 2: in terms of his career, everything he's done, I really 27 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 2: am at a loss. 28 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: That's okay. You know, he was well known in his time, 29 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: and I'm sure he pops up for pathologists in history 30 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: when they're studying pathology. My question to you is, you know, 31 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: when you first started to explore the idea of being 32 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: in law enforcement, investigation, forensics, all of that stuff, did 33 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: you veer towards pathology or what was your biggest interest 34 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: at first when you started thinking, Oh, this is a 35 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: field I'd like to go into. 36 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 2: Oh you really don't know, do you? 37 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: No? Well, I'm I supposed to know. Is everybody going 38 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: to say you don't know this about Paul? 39 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 2: Well? You know, so when I was young, there was 40 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 2: a TV show called Quincy and Neil Quincy, MD. He 41 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,239 Speaker 2: was a forensic pathologist down in Los Angeles. He had 42 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 2: his superhero pathology assistant sidekick Sam and Quincy was not 43 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 2: just a pathologist. He was a crime scene investigator. He 44 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 2: was a forensic scientist, he was an investigator, He was 45 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 2: everything rolled into one character, which we know today doesn't 46 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 2: really exist. But watching that show that inspired me. I 47 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 2: really thought when I was going through school I was 48 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: studying biochemistry, but at UC Davis I ended up going 49 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 2: and taking human anatomy as well, having access to the 50 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 2: UC Davis Medical library, and I ended up spending more 51 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 2: time looking at forensic pathology books than actually studying my 52 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 2: biochemistry major textbooks. But needless to say, I didn't go 53 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 2: to med school, and thank god Identic because once I 54 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 2: started my career and having to go to the Morgan 55 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 2: seeing what forensic pathologists do day in and day out, 56 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 2: it's a job I would not have enjoyed. But I 57 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 2: really did study both at the college level, but most 58 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 2: notably after I got working, I studied forensic pathology. And 59 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 2: it's so critically important to understand what can be discerned 60 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 2: from the violence, the injuries to the victim, and how 61 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 2: that correlates to the crime scene evidence as well as 62 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: what it could potentially indicate as to who the offender 63 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 2: might be. There's a lot of information that can be 64 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 2: discerned from what we would consider this discipline of forensic pathology. 65 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: And it's all thanks to Quincy. 66 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 2: MD, well, and in many ways. I even though I 67 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 2: said he had all these roles that don't exist in 68 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 2: real law enforcement, well I kind of made it exist. 69 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 2: So I kind of, you know, being inspired by Quincy, 70 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 2: took it upon myself not just to stay in my lane, 71 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 2: but get into other people's lanes. 72 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: You know, I've noticed that that you are in other 73 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: people's lanes. Thank goodness. I need you to be in 74 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,359 Speaker 1: everybody's lane for these stories. So it's funny that you 75 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: were inspired by a TV show because I was too. 76 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: Oh you want to know the reason I went into 77 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: journalism that became really excited about journalism. 78 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 2: Oh, do tell. I'm trying to right now. I'm trying 79 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 2: to scroll through some shows I watched when I was 80 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 2: younger to see if there was one in which there 81 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 2: was a journalist that would have inspired you. But nothing 82 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 2: is coming to mind. Was Mary Tyler Moore a journalist? 83 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: Listen, I know you think I'm old, but I'm not. 84 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 2: Well, maybe I just said I just revealed my age. 85 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: Okay, okay. Think a blonde woman, big mouth, loud, outspoken 86 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: Washington in DC, and she was a television journalist. Can 87 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: you think about who I'm talking about? 88 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 2: Murphy Brown. Yes, oh, I got it. 89 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: Now. 90 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 2: You know. 91 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: I watched The Real Housewives, specifically of New Jersey, and 92 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 1: I used to watch Murphy Brown and I watched the 93 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,919 Speaker 1: revival of Murphy Brown too, and it was it was inspiring. 94 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: I really loved seeing, you know, whatever your opinion was 95 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: about the character, I loved seeing a woman who was 96 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: really outspoken and together and you don't had personal problems. 97 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 1: But that was really inspiring to me that she was 98 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 1: just such a go getter in every aspect of her life. So, 99 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: you know, I never ever when I have students come 100 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: to me and say, oh, I really you know, I 101 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 1: used to watch this TV show and this is what 102 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: inspired me to go into mind Hunters, and this is 103 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: why I want to go into criminal profiling. I never 104 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: dismissed that, because you and I both came from that 105 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: we are. You are inspired by by the art, you know, 106 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: by Hollywood sometimes, so whatever gets you to where you 107 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: are sitting across from me telling me any facts about cases, 108 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: that's all I care about. 109 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and everybody, and we've talked about this 110 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 2: before and how this true crime genre we're in is 111 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 2: just so huge, you know, and the reality is is 112 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 2: that well the genre has always been there, even though 113 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 2: Quincy technically wouldn't be true crime, you know, it's a 114 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 2: fictional show. But the crime stories that's the ultimate human drama, 115 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 2: and of course that's what people watch and they always 116 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 2: have and they always will. 117 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 1: Yep. Well, now that we have our inspirations made public, 118 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: I want to get into this case because really, Bernard 119 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: Spilsbury is just a rock star of a pathologist. Even 120 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 1: though he worked in the thirties and forties and fifties, 121 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: he worked on the John Reginald Christi case, which my 122 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: first book was about. You know, I'm familiar with his work. 123 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: He did some really serious work on this case coming up. 124 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: And this is such a big case that it's a 125 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: two parter, and it's also unsolved, and there's forensics everywhere, 126 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: and you have to tell me what makes sense. This 127 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: is nineteen thirty one London. You have to tell me 128 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: what makes sense and what doesn't make sense. But I 129 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: think you'll be impressed with some of the stuff that 130 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 1: he did. I think it's pretty interesting and we're going 131 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: to learn a lot from the story. 132 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 2: Okay, well, I'm looking forward to it. Anytime there's an 133 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 2: unsolved case, you've got my attention. 134 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: So the good news is we're in London in nineteen 135 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: thirty one, which is for me a wonderful time period 136 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: to explore, especially in London. My first book took place 137 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty two, which was very dreary London, and 138 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty one is to me such an electric time period. 139 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: The bad news is that this is involving a ten 140 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: year old girl. You know, I hate the stories about children, 141 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: but I picked them specifically because they're important. They show 142 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: us a lot about history and we learn a lot. So, 143 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: as I've said a million times, this is not haphazard 144 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: how we choose these cases. You know, I'm doing it 145 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: specifically for a reason. So I just wanted to warn 146 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: the audience in you up top that this is a 147 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: really brutal crime involving a ten year old. 148 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 2: Girl, Okay, you know, And this is just something where 149 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 2: even though I'm in the true crime space, and I've 150 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 2: said this over and over, I come out of real crime. 151 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 2: And unfortunately, real crime does occur with children, and I've 152 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 2: worked plenty of cases involving kids in real life and 153 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 2: they are tough for sure. 154 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a hard one. And Bernard Spilsbury does 155 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: an excellent job outlining what happens in this case in 156 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: his book, so we went to him to figure out 157 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,119 Speaker 1: what the area was like. This is in notting Hill, 158 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: and notting Hill is also the centerpiece of my first 159 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: book and Death in the Air. Not a similar case, 160 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: but the same sort of feeling, which is sort of 161 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: this shabby genteel. Not wealthy people, but people who who 162 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 1: had some means, who are merging into what is quickly 163 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: becoming more of a slum. Notting Hill now and London 164 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: is beautiful. I love it, love it, love it. But 165 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: in the thirties, forties and fifties it was harder. It 166 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: was a harder time, particularly after the war. So you know, 167 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: we are in an area that would be predominantly working class, 168 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: lots of shops. But you know, you picture London, and 169 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: I know you've been there enough. You know we're in 170 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: an area where there's sort of row houses, these old 171 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: Victorian houses that are stacked right close to each other, 172 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: sharing a wall. Oftentimes there's gardens out front. This is 173 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: a congested, tight space area which I would think is 174 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 1: not the easiest place to commit a crime in privacy 175 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: unless you are in your own flat. 176 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I had a family vacation a few 177 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 2: months ago and that's when I really started to get 178 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 2: much more familiar with the layout of London. And though 179 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 2: I didn't spend any time in the notting Hill area, 180 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 2: I do recall riding the underground and seeing the notting 181 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 2: Hill station, you know, just kind of and I'm just 182 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 2: passing through. I never got off the underground, but it 183 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 2: appeared that there was a lot of professionals today that 184 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 2: were getting off and on at that station, as if 185 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 2: this was their residence and they were commuting from the 186 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:00,080 Speaker 2: notting Hill area into downtown or out of notting Hill. Well, 187 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 2: is that accurate for today? 188 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think back then there were a 189 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: lot of people who were working locally, and I think 190 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: you're right, there's people, you know, who are commuting out 191 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: and in of notting Hill all the time. Now, this is, 192 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: like I said, predominantly a working class area. That crime 193 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 1: rate is I would say like at a medium this 194 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: is not a high high crime rate area, but there 195 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: are a lot of people and we are close to 196 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: a shopping district where there are people, as you said, 197 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: coming in and out. And this is about a week 198 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: and a half ish before Christmas. So now you're talking 199 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,839 Speaker 1: about even more people who are in the area who 200 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 1: are shopping. So let's talk about the family first. It 201 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: begins with a family called the Pages and they live 202 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: on the ground floor flat at twenty two Blenham Crescent 203 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: Street and this is a multi family working class house 204 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 1: in the area of notting Hill. They haven't been there 205 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: very long, it's been about a year or so, and 206 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 1: there are five people who are there. So there is 207 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: a husband named Charles, a wife named Isabelle, and then 208 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: they have only one child who's a ten year old 209 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: who's at the center of this named Vera Page. This 210 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 1: became one of Spillsbury's more publicized cases because of Vera, 211 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: because this is our victim. She was ten years old. 212 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: Also in the house, Isabelle has a niece and the 213 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: niece lives with the boyfriend. So the niece has a 214 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: boyfriend who lives with them. So there are five of 215 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: them in this working class building. And again they're on 216 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: the ground floor. And then you've got one other family 217 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: and they're an elderly couple named Arthur and Annie Rush 218 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: and they live on the top floor and they've been 219 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 1: there for twenty years, so long term couple friendly with 220 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: the Page family. Everything seems to be fine. The time 221 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: period that we're talking about is Monday, December fourteenth of 222 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,839 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty one. In the house, about four thirty pm, Vera, 223 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: the ten year old, asks her mother if she can 224 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: walk to Aunt Minnie's house. So, you know, her aunt 225 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: lives nearby, ten or fifteen minute walk. Vera had gotten 226 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: two swimming certificates that she was very proud of, but 227 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: she showed them to Aunt Minnie and then left them 228 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: behind the day before, so she wanted to go back. 229 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: Vera's mom said okay, but because it was wintertime, she said, 230 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: you know, you need to put on these heavy layers, 231 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: so she put on a coat and she grabbed a 232 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: red beret. You know, this would be kind of a 233 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: key clue unfortunately later on, so she was walking fifteen 234 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: minutes away. You know, I like, now, I am nervous 235 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 1: if my kids are they're thirteen or fifteen minutes away 236 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 1: and I can't see them the whole time. But this 237 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: was a different time, and I'm sure Vera had made 238 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: this trip before, but it sort of informs the independence 239 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: that she felt even at age ten. 240 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 2: And I'm the same way you know, today, when I 241 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 2: see young children and I'm not seeing an adult anywhere around, 242 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 2: you know, I immediately I'm looking. I'm saying, okay, where 243 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 2: where is the parent or where is the guardian? You know, 244 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 2: And almost always I am seeing, okay, there's this adult 245 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 2: that's protecting that child. But every now and then I 246 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 2: get really hinked up when I see a young kid 247 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 2: out there riding their bike or just walking, because even 248 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 2: though it's rare, it's such a high risk situation for 249 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 2: somebody driving by, who's a bad character to see a 250 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 2: victim of opportunity. 251 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,959 Speaker 1: When we are thinking about history, when did the child 252 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: snatching thrown into the van? When did that sort of 253 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: panic set in in this country? Is there one case 254 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: that you know of in the seventies or the eighties 255 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: where it just became kind of like the Satanic panic 256 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 1: or some of the other trends that you know, when 257 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: women started going missing when they were hitchhiking. I feel 258 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: like there are decades kind of assigned to that awareness. 259 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: When did we really start seeing kids be snatched off 260 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: the street in a highly publicized way? 261 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, that's actually a very interesting question because 262 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 2: there have been different eras when it comes to the victimology, 263 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 2: you know, and how offenders are gaining access to the victims. 264 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 2: I can't speak for across the nation. I can only 265 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 2: speak for the cases that I got involved with out 266 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 2: in the East Bay, California in the nineteen sixties. There 267 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 2: were abductions and abduction homicides of children and it would 268 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 2: make the headlines in the local newspaper for a few 269 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 2: days and then it would just, you know, disappear. And 270 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 2: it didn't seem like those cases really caused a cultural 271 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 2: shift right away, and that seemed to continue through the seventies. 272 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 2: I would say it was more into the eighties in 273 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 2: my jurisdiction, where now people realized our kids are vulnerable 274 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 2: when they're outside playing, or they're at the park, or 275 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 2: they're out of view of the parent or the guardian. 276 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 2: And just like you mentioned, you know, it was with 277 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 2: the co ed's, the women that were hitchhiking in the 278 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 2: late sixties and early seventies and the predators we're picking 279 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 2: them up. And you know, today it's very rare to 280 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 2: see a woman by herself hitchhiking, just because it is 281 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 2: such a dangerous activity for them to do. With the 282 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 2: child abduction cases occurring through the eighties. That's when I 283 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 2: think you started to see more protection. Instead of the 284 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 2: kids just go, hey, go play at the park by 285 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 2: yourselves with the other neighborhood kids. Now you see all 286 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 2: the parents, you know, sitting on the park benches watching 287 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 2: their kids at the park, and that's persistent to this day. 288 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 2: And what's happened is because now you have these guardians 289 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 2: at the parks or wherever the kids kind of congregate, 290 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 2: you know, where predators used to go. Now the predators 291 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 2: are having to shift their tactics, and now it's the 292 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 2: online space where they can anonymize, and their ultimate goal 293 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 2: is to lure these children to some location away from 294 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 2: the house, away from their guardian, so they can now 295 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 2: do what they want with them physically. 296 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: I remember in the eighties, you know, when I was 297 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: Vera's age, it would have been eighty four eighty five, 298 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: and I remember playing in our neighborhood riding my bike. 299 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: But I also remember my mom driving up every once 300 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: in a while. I was about a block away in 301 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: a cul de sac maybe, and there were parents all 302 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: around us. So I think you're right. I think it 303 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: really was in the eighties where people started to become 304 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: a lot more alert, and I started hearing about the 305 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: white van and stranger danger and things like that. But 306 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: we're in the thirties and her parents. Vera's parents say, okay, 307 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: go on ahead, and she walks out the door, and 308 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: she ends up actually going and making it all the 309 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: way to Minnie's house. She gets the certificates within a 310 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: fifteen minute period, and then she leaves and then she 311 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: isn't seen alive again. 312 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 2: Okay, so she makes she actually is successful in the 313 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 2: first leg of the trip, yep. But then the second leg, which, 314 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 2: as far as we know, her intent was to go right. 315 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: Back home exactly. That's what she told her parents. I'm 316 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: going to go get these certificates and I'll come right 317 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: back home. And we have to presume that this is 318 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: a trip that she's made before. And they felt very safe. 319 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: And that's four thirty in the afternoon, and it's daylight 320 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,360 Speaker 1: and it hasn't gotten dark yet, even though it's December. 321 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: So Vera's parents are waiting and waiting. They are expecting 322 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 1: her to be home by probably five, five fifteen at 323 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 1: the latest, and at dinnertime, which was six o'clock, they 324 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: become very concerned her father walks over to Aunt Minnie's 325 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,679 Speaker 1: house to investigate, and he finds out from Aunt Minnie 326 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,719 Speaker 1: that Vera, as I said, made it there. She grabbed 327 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: her swimming certificates and then turned around and left at 328 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 1: four forty five, so fifteen minutes as predicted. This is 329 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: not a good sign. Right between four forty five and 330 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: now six pm, we have no idea where this little 331 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 1: girl is. Charles starts knocking on doors of nearby friends 332 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 1: and relatives. No one has seen Vera. I don't know 333 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,159 Speaker 1: if he's thinking she might have popped in or gotten 334 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 1: hurt and looked for help. But later that evening, when 335 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 1: this ten year old is still not home, he and 336 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: his wife go to the notting Hill police station and 337 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: report her missing. So later in the evening is probably 338 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: seven or eight o'clock. I'm not sure what's going on 339 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: with them, and I don't want to judge what parents 340 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: do in that way. But later in the evening for 341 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 1: a teenager, maybe, but for a ten year old after 342 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: dark to be gone and they waited to go to 343 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: the police, that. 344 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 2: Is kind of tough to assess. Considering the anxiety that 345 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 2: today a parent would have for such a young child. 346 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 2: To not be where they need to be. You know, 347 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 2: I do have an observation and a question though, so Dad, 348 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 2: it sounds like about an hour and fifteen minutes roughly 349 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 2: after Vera left her aunt's house. He walks the same 350 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 2: path as his daughter, and he doesn't see anything. 351 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 1: Nope. 352 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 2: And now the question that I have is these streets 353 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 2: that he's walking along in nineteen thirty one, is this 354 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 2: mostly automobiles would be on these streets? Would this be 355 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 2: horse carriage or just you know, people walk in pedestrians. 356 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: It would be mostly walking. Cars did not become a 357 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: really popular in London until the mid to late nineteen thirties, 358 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: and this is nineteen thirty one, so it's not like 359 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 1: anybody would own a car. You'd have to be pretty 360 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 1: wealthy to own a car. And so this is you know, 361 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: still walking. Potentially, if you're a worker, you're using a 362 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: wheelbarrow an awful lot. You might have carriages, but predominantly 363 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: people are walking in this part. It's mixed residential and 364 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: commercial this area. 365 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 2: Okay, part of the threat are the residents along the 366 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 2: path that Vera walked. You see somebody who's looking out 367 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 2: the window or out out front and sees this little 368 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,919 Speaker 2: girl by herself, and it's very easy to grab the 369 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 2: girl and bring her inside. So that's something that I 370 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 2: would be considering. And the father did the right thing 371 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 2: knocking on doors. But also you have this these pedestri 372 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 2: It's just that, you know, if this was a really 373 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 2: busy street with a lot of people walking, if somebody 374 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 2: it doesn't have a shelter to pull the victim into 375 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 2: right away, really takes a risk that there would be witnesses. 376 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 1: You're right, and no car, of course, I mean it's 377 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: really risky, but she is gone. Nobody has an idea 378 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: about what happened to her. The police start immediately looking 379 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: for vera ten year old girl. This doesn't happen all 380 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: the time. The pages don't receive any updates that night, 381 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 1: so let's just say eight pm in the next day either, 382 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: so not at all Monday night and not at all 383 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: Tuesday night. This has to be absolutely horrible for her family. 384 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: How do police know how much they need to update 385 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 1: the family when it is clear that this little girl 386 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: has either been drawn away by someone or has gotten hurt. 387 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: This is most likely not a runaway situation. How do 388 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 1: the police balance keeping the family update if they really 389 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: don't know what's going on, I would think they're going crazy. 390 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, most early, you know, the parents have just 391 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 2: got to be you know, besides themselves not being able 392 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:13,679 Speaker 2: to sleep, not being able to eat, you know, just 393 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 2: absolute fear as to you know, where their daughter's at 394 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,479 Speaker 2: and still maintaining hope that she's going to show up 395 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 2: or she's going to be found and be okay. You know. 396 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 2: In terms of law enforcement, you know, of course today 397 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 2: there's more formalized child deduction protocols, and of course when 398 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 2: law enforcement responds, you know, the first people that are 399 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 2: are contacted are the residents inside the house where the 400 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 2: child has gone missing out of and of course they 401 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 2: are being interviewed, the house is being searched. Oftentimes the 402 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 2: kids have you know hidden themselves, you know, inside the house. 403 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 2: In this situation, you have this young girl that is 404 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,959 Speaker 2: walked away from the house, and so now law enforcement 405 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 2: is going to be doing a canvas of the area. Today, 406 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 2: we likely would have have a dedicated officer who is 407 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 2: the point person to contact the parents. Sometimes you know, 408 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 2: would be staying with the parents at their residence or 409 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 2: would be routinely you know, dropping in and saying you know, 410 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 2: we're still looking. You know, this is where we're at. 411 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 2: But back in nineteen thirty one, I bet they weren't 412 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,199 Speaker 2: even thinking about sort of this this caretaking role that 413 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 2: they need to take on with the parents themselves. 414 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, her parents are beside themselves. They're not getting 415 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 1: any updates. But very quickly there is a very very 416 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: sad update. So Monday night when she goes missing, no word, Tuesday, 417 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: no word. Wednesday morning, around nine point thirty, someone discovers 418 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 1: Vera's body. Now, the timeline and the distance and all 419 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: of these details, because we have a lot of witnesses 420 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: and we've got some forensics, various things happening become important. 421 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: So nine point fifty in the morning, there is a 422 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: milkman who who goes to the front garden of a 423 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: house at eighty nine Addison Road, And this is about 424 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: a mile, maybe a little touch more away from Vera's house, 425 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: this place where she's found. So he finds her in 426 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: the garden and he said that she was under some bushes. 427 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:22,239 Speaker 1: She's fully clothed. There's no red beret, and there's no 428 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: swimming certificates, which the aunt had confirmed she had both 429 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: of those things when she came and then left. So 430 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 1: this could be a what do you call it mementos? 431 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 1: This could be a memento situation. Does that sound like 432 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:34,919 Speaker 1: it could be? 433 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 2: There's a possibility. We use the term souvenir. You know, 434 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 2: some people will throughout the term trophy or momento. But technically, 435 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 2: if you know, when we have an offender who is 436 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 2: keeping an item of the victims to relive, to fantasize 437 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 2: down the road about this victim, that's what we call 438 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 2: a souvenir. So this red cap potentially the certificates potentially, 439 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 2: but also those could have been discarded because these are 440 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,400 Speaker 2: loose items and now you know, through the abduction process, 441 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 2: maybe they fall off. Maybe it's in his residence or 442 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 2: wherever he took her body, or he's just tossing them 443 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 2: as he's in this transportation stage of getting rid of 444 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 2: her body. 445 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: Okay, so I guess we're going to find out. Let 446 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: me tell you what the milkman says. We do have 447 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 1: a pathology report from doctor Spillsbury in a little bit, 448 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 1: but as a police officer on the scene, I just 449 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: want to get your impressions on what the milkman says 450 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 1: he saw. Okay, he came, he said. The moment I 451 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 1: stepped into the garden, I saw the body. The child 452 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: was lying on her right side, and the lapel of 453 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,640 Speaker 1: her coat almost covered her face. I told the cook 454 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: of the house, and then went out and found a policeman. 455 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: She looked as if she were lying asleep under the bushes, 456 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: except that her face was like marble. What does that mean? White? 457 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 2: That's how I'm interpreting it, you know, And so she 458 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 2: no longer has blood flowing through her body. She's deceased, 459 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 2: you know. You do see this pallor if you will, 460 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 2: with the lack of blood, and so that would look whitish. 461 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,120 Speaker 2: But it's also telling to me that he's not saying 462 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 2: I'm seeing Brown's spots or I'm not seeing vain starting 463 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 2: to show up, like the decompositional process as kicked in. 464 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 2: And this is we're talking December time frame in London, 465 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 2: So I imagine the outdoor temperatures are fairly cool, right. 466 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: M hmm, Except that doctor Spilsbury has a pretty strong 467 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: opinion about where she died and when she died, and 468 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: it's different. His description can seem a little misleading. So 469 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: let me get to the timeline first, because the milkman 470 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 1: has come around this area before, so let's do the 471 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: timeline real quick. Police start to try to piece this together. 472 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: This same guy, the same milkman, made a delivery that 473 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: morning to that same block and he walked by the house. 474 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: It was five point thirty in the morning. The milkman says, 475 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: I didn't see anything weird, but it was dark outside 476 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 1: the night before. So Tuesday night she goes missing. Monday night, 477 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: Tuesday night, and then the next morning, someone living at 478 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: eighty nine Addison had walked past the garden and didn't 479 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: see anything unusual. And you know, these gardens were right 480 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,120 Speaker 1: on the sidewalk. They were right there, so you would 481 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 1: walk past and you would be able to see everything 482 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 1: in the garden. So the police are saying, between this 483 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 1: homeowner who lived, you know, around the block next door, 484 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 1: and the milkman, they would not have missed this little 485 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: girl's body in this garden, right on the sidewalk. And 486 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: they know she wasn't there at ten twenty the night 487 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: before she was discovered, at five thirty the morning she 488 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 1: was discovered, but she was there at seven point fifty 489 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: the morning she was discovered, but she was there two 490 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: hours later. So it sounds like somebody took her. If 491 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: these guys are these witnesses are right, somebody put her 492 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: body there between seven point fifty in the morning and 493 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: nine to fifty when it is daylight. 494 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it is a relatively darrow window of time. 495 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 2: And this is a mile away from where Vera's aunt's 496 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 2: house was at right, little. 497 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,160 Speaker 1: More than a mile, just slightly more than a mile. 498 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,919 Speaker 2: He's got comfort to know that at that time of 499 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 2: day in this neighborhood he would be able to discard 500 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 2: this child's body without being seen. So that's that's telling 501 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 2: to me a little bit about the offender. Now, if 502 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,679 Speaker 2: law enforcement is also making this assessment, because I'm looking 503 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 2: at what I'm assuming is this neighborhood. Now you're saying 504 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 2: it was like eighty nine Addison. 505 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: Uh huh, eighty nine Addison. I will say, also, the 506 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,119 Speaker 1: police said she was only partially concealed. It's not like 507 00:27:58,160 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: he put her under the bush and you had to look. 508 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,160 Speaker 1: She was partially visible, so anybody would have seen her 509 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 1: walking by, you wouldn't have been able to miss her. 510 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 2: It seems like, yeah, and so this this was a 511 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 2: quick disposal. Yeah, he is. If you want to say 512 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 2: in and out. I would use this term, and it 513 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,120 Speaker 2: may sound a little crude when we talk about disposing 514 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 2: a child's body, but this is a dump and run, 515 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 2: you're right. Versus spending time to secret her body like 516 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 2: as you mentioned, you know, behind bushes, or to try 517 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 2: to bury the body in some way or cover the 518 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 2: body up. He's not taking the time to do that. 519 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 2: So in part, he's recognizing I've got a limited time 520 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 2: to take this child's body from wherever he's secreted it, 521 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 2: or however he's transported it to this location and put 522 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 2: that body and get rid of the body and get 523 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 2: away without risk of somebody coming out of the houses, 524 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 2: the neighbors coming out just as they're going to work 525 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 2: or something. So he's just he's just doing a real 526 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 2: quick body dump and then is running off. 527 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: The question will be how did he get her there? Yeah, 528 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: they interviewed everybody at eighty nine Addison Road. This was 529 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: not anybody on their radar that came from this house, 530 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: so it's not like he came from a basement flat 531 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: and just placed her under there. He definitely brought her 532 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: there and it was thirty six hours after she went missing. 533 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: So the question will I mean did he do it 534 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: immediately and kill her immediately, or did he keep her 535 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: alive and then kill. 536 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 2: Her right now? You know, the possibilities are wide open. 537 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 2: But imagine this is let's say he bumps into her 538 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 2: as she's walking home. The initial vision is as he 539 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 2: grabs this child, and the child is kicking and screaming, 540 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 2: and you know, there's a big commotion. However, imagine an 541 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 2: adult male coming up to a ten year old girl 542 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 2: and saying, you're coming with me, and literally he's holding 543 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 2: her hand and walking her, possibly to this Addison location. 544 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 2: Maybe he lives along this street, and he takes her 545 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 2: inside his residence, and any witnesses just see a man 546 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 2: with a young girl out for a walk. You know, 547 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 2: that type of scenario is entirely possible. 548 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: And is it possible that he knows her that this 549 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: isn't a stranger thing at all. Obviously that's possible. 550 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 2: Well for sure. Yeah. Now, and this is where victimology 551 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 2: is huge. You know, we need to talk to the parents. 552 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,959 Speaker 2: Who else does you know, Verah know? Who does she trust? 553 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 2: You know, whether it be relatives, whether it be friends, 554 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 2: parents of some of the kids that she's friends with. 555 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 2: You know, So it's gathering all that information and going 556 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 2: and interviewing them. 557 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: So let's bring in doctor Spillsbury, who is a little 558 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: bit of a saving grace. He has some great information 559 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: and frankly gives us a lot of historical context that 560 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: I had not heard of. So I'll be interested in 561 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: hearing what you think the real basics. He says she 562 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: was likely killed inside, not outside, and certainly not at 563 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: the garden at eighty nine Addison. And it's because, thank goodness, 564 00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: it rained. I know that we talk about rain and 565 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: can be terrible for forensic investigators, but because it rained, 566 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: he saw her clothes and basically the back part of 567 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: her coat was damp and that was it. So the 568 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: rest of her is not wet and filthy and dirty. 569 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: And it had rained an awful lot from three pm 570 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: until nine pm on Wednesday. I think he made a 571 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: mistake by choosing, you know, this time to do it. 572 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: I guess he probably. I'm sure he wasn't thinking about 573 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: this aspect of it. But Spillsbury said she was definitely 574 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 1: killed inside. There's no indicator that she was killed outside, 575 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: which gives him a clue. 576 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 2: No, that is a clue. And also this may be 577 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 2: a very practical aspect for the offender. He may have 578 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 2: wanted to get rid of her body in the middle 579 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 2: of the night, but didn't want to go out in 580 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 2: the rain, and so he waited for the rain to 581 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 2: end to dispose of her body. 582 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: Interesting. Okay, so let's talk about cause of death and 583 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 1: what else happened. So Spillsbury examines Vera. He concludes she 584 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 1: has been sexually assaulted. He found evidence of seamen and 585 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 1: he also says she was strangled to death by someone's 586 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: bare hands. But she also this is what's interesting, she 587 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: also had ligature marks on her neck that he says 588 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: seemed to be made postmarnem. Is that because of the 589 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: way that the blood coagulated or how would he know 590 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: postmarnem versus before she died. 591 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 2: Well, that has to do with the way that the 592 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 2: tissues are responding. So if a ligature is tied around 593 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 2: the neck tight enough, you know this is trauma to 594 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 2: the tissues. And when the victim is alive, or what 595 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 2: we call this perimortem state in which the tissues are 596 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 2: still functioning even though the victim may technically be dead, 597 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 2: there is an inflammatory response. There could be if the 598 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 2: heart is still pumping. There could be hemorrhage, you know, 599 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 2: in the furrows of this tight ligature. This is not 600 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 2: an unusual sequence for offenders to manually strangle and then 601 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 2: to apply a ligature afterwards. They do this in part 602 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 2: they are naive killers, so they do the manual strangulation, 603 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 2: but they're not sure is she really dead. So what 604 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 2: they do is they'll tie a ligature around the neck 605 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 2: to ensure that the victim is dead. Now, in this case, 606 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 2: it sounds like a ligature was applied post mortem, but 607 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 2: then that ligature was removed and I'm assuming it wasn't 608 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 2: recovered at the crime scene. 609 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 1: Now, okay, okay, here's the historical context that I find 610 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: absolutely fascinating. Spillsbury looks at Vera and says she has 611 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: soot and coal on her face and clothing. Another reason 612 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: why he thought this happened, you know, inside in a 613 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 1: coal cellar and not outside. There are also small dabs 614 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: of candle grease and paraffin wax on her coat, So 615 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 1: Spillsbury says she was in a coal seller. This all 616 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 1: must have happened in a coal cellar because of two things, Paul, 617 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: and this is kind of relates to a case you 618 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: and I just talked about. One was that coal sellers 619 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: almost never had electricity in the nineteen thirty so they 620 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 1: were all lit with candles, and people used paraffin wax 621 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: as a way to clean things. And they would have 622 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: used paraffin wax perhaps in a coal seller to clean things. 623 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: Neither of the candles or the wax ever occurred to 624 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 1: me in any way, but that's what they lived with 625 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty one. 626 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. No, that is, you know, tremendous cultural insight. I 627 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 2: would say that great observations by doctor Spillsbury. Now is 628 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 2: it conclusive, no, you know, but it is a clue, 629 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 2: you know. So now investigators when they are going to 630 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 2: potential you know, crime scene locations, suspect houses, and it's like, 631 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,720 Speaker 2: I want to see your coal seller and see, oh, 632 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 2: paraffin wax candles, you know, yes, okay, I see disturbances, 633 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 2: I see other items of physical evidence that could relate 634 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 2: to the crime. Spillsberry's observations does give investigators at least 635 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:03,280 Speaker 2: some focus, but you can't just rely on it because 636 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,840 Speaker 2: there could potentially be other explanations for the paraffin the 637 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 2: candle wax. But it's I think that's great, that's great 638 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 2: information to provide the investigators. 639 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: How would paraffin been used as a common cleaning agent. 640 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know enough about paraffin. Can you picture 641 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 1: how that would have been the case? 642 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, this is a thing. You know, I'm 643 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 2: seeing it just with a quick search. You know, paraffin 644 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 2: wax cleaners and you know paraffin. You know, of course, 645 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 2: this is a it's a solid substance that you could 646 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 2: heat up and it will melt. Water based cleaners will 647 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 2: be able to clean substances that are soluble in water, 648 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 2: whereas some substances such as you know, maybe waxes, maybe 649 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 2: the coal, you know, some of the soot aspect, wouldn't 650 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 2: be as readily soluble in water or water mixed with detergent, 651 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 2: and so now paraffin could be something that could help 652 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,399 Speaker 2: get these other non water soluble substances. Or it may 653 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 2: just be a physical type of cleaning where now you 654 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,240 Speaker 2: like the soot, the paraffin wax just kind of grabs 655 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,280 Speaker 2: onto it and then you can remove it from the surface. 656 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,400 Speaker 2: You don't want soot on you know. Something like that 657 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 2: is what's coming to mind for me. 658 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, moving forward, doctor Spillsbury is trying to figure 659 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: out when she was killed and what happened to her 660 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 1: because decomposition, it sounds like the milkman made a very 661 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 1: cursory examination of Vera when he saw her, and he 662 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 1: made that observation that she looked like marble white, you know, 663 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:44,319 Speaker 1: kind of drained of blood. What Spillsbury says is he 664 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: thinks she was killed very shortly after she was kidnapped. 665 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: He thinks she was killed in the coal cellar, but 666 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,760 Speaker 1: she was not kept there very long because mid December 667 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: it would have been freezing in the coal cellar. And 668 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 1: he said she had an advanced state of decomposition, and 669 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,760 Speaker 1: she was probably kept in a warm, heated room before 670 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 1: she was left in the garden thirty six hours later. 671 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: So he thought she was somewhere for thirty either her 672 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,240 Speaker 1: body or her alive in a heated room for thirty 673 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:19,840 Speaker 1: six hours before she was dumped. 674 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 2: So advanced state of decomposition. I've had bodies that have 675 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 2: I can think of one girl who was outside in 676 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 2: November in the East Bay for seven days and it 677 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:36,320 Speaker 2: was cool. She had When we initially recovered her body, 678 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 2: she did not look very decomposed, but then the next 679 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 2: day in the morgue. Literally, the decompositional process had just 680 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 2: absolutely sped up here. I agree. You know, for this 681 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:53,800 Speaker 2: girl thirty six hours later to have advanced state of decomposition, 682 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 2: her body is in a warm environment, no question about it. 683 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 2: So yes, I do agree with doctor spiel Bury there. 684 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 1: Okay, so he's ten for ten right now. Spillsbury. 685 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 2: Usually, I'm very critical of your your favorite experts. 686 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 1: Not this guy, only the ones from the seventeen hundreds. 687 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 1: You start warming up into the late eighteen hundreds and 688 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,359 Speaker 1: then the nineteen hundreds. They really know what they're doing. Well, 689 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,319 Speaker 1: we'll see, there's a lot more to come here. So 690 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 1: they do a comparison. They want to see if the 691 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 1: candle wax and the paraffin wax on Vera's coat might 692 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: have come from her own home, which is I'm sure 693 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 1: something you would have done. So I did not know this, 694 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,319 Speaker 1: that candle wax. I know, everybody's gonna think I'm an 695 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 1: idiot here, but I didn't know there were different kinds 696 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,280 Speaker 1: of candle wax. I mean, I know there's wheat bees wax. 697 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: But they looked at all the candles and all the 698 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 1: paraffin in Vera's home and the stuff on her jacket 699 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 1: and on her body did not come from her home. 700 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:49,719 Speaker 1: They compared it and it didn't match. I did not 701 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 1: know that. I'm sure that this has been done a 702 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: million times by police. 703 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,799 Speaker 2: Well, anytime you have a foreign substance, you know, this 704 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,880 Speaker 2: is just part of you know, assessing, you know, for 705 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,880 Speaker 2: first it is is this something that was on the 706 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,919 Speaker 2: victim's body prior to the crime committee and what would 707 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,799 Speaker 2: the source of that substance be? And can I differentiate 708 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,840 Speaker 2: that substance, you know, And it's not just the wax, 709 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 2: you know. You think about these candles and there are 710 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,839 Speaker 2: different colors. There's different sense put in when we used 711 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 2: to be allowed to do these types of kind of 712 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:25,760 Speaker 2: novel forensic investigation, scientific investigations. During the era that I worked, 713 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 2: we had the advanced instrumentation to really drill down to differentiate, 714 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 2: as an example, different fibers from one to the other 715 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,280 Speaker 2: based on the dies within the fibers. They may visually 716 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,719 Speaker 2: look the same, but they're from two different sources because 717 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,280 Speaker 2: they have two different dyes to give them that color. 718 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 2: So with the the waxes, you know, back in the day, 719 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 2: I'm not entirely sure, you know, from a forensic standpoint, 720 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 2: what they would have been able to do. I imagine 721 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 2: what they're doing is they're doing a visual observation to say, Okay, 722 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,960 Speaker 2: is there anything within Varra's house that looks just like 723 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 2: what's on her clothing? But also the witness, the aunt, 724 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:06,439 Speaker 2: the parents. Right now, I don't have any understanding as 725 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,799 Speaker 2: to how much of this wax is on her, but 726 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 2: that would be part of the question. If there was 727 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 2: a lot on her that's very visible on the front 728 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 2: of her coat or whatever it is, ask the parents 729 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:20,879 Speaker 2: was that on her when she left? Asked the aunt 730 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 2: was that on her when she showed up? You know? 731 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,360 Speaker 2: The soot? Did she have foot on her? So you 732 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 2: can rely on witness statements to help determine yes, this 733 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:30,840 Speaker 2: is related to the crime and not. There isn't an 734 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 2: innocent explanation for these substances on her. 735 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 1: So Spillsbury says, small dabs of candle and paraffin wax, 736 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:42,440 Speaker 1: so it might have gone unnoticed, who knows, but soot 737 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 1: and coal on her face and clothing would have been noticed. 738 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 1: So this seems like this happened after she disappeared, after 739 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 1: she went to Aunt Minnie's house, is what it sounds 740 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 1: like to me, but we'll see. 741 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:53,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, no for sure. 742 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 1: So let's do a real quick recap here. We have 743 00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 1: this ten year old girl via page. She goes to 744 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:02,320 Speaker 1: her aunt's house. It's supposed to take fifteen minutes. It does. 745 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 1: She gets there, she grabs these swimming certificates in her 746 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,720 Speaker 1: red beret, and she vanishes. Her parents call police. Thirty 747 00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 1: six hours later, her body is discovered about a mile away. 748 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 1: No one knows how her body got there. The pathologist, 749 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,959 Speaker 1: Bernard Spilsbury, suspects that she was killed in a coal 750 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:25,160 Speaker 1: cellar based on material that he finds on her body, 751 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 1: and then kept somewhere warm. He thinks, based on everything 752 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,840 Speaker 1: he's seen, that she was killed immediately, and then it 753 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: sounds like held until the killer could figure out where 754 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 1: to dump her body. Will it ever stop raining in London? 755 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 1: Does that sound right to you? 756 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 2: You did a great job summarizing the story. 757 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,840 Speaker 1: Okay, So now I'm going to throw a tiny, tiny 758 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 1: wrench in our whole story here. The police continue, continue, 759 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 1: continue to interview witnesses. I mean, they just do an 760 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,440 Speaker 1: excellent canvas here. And there are people who have spotted 761 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,280 Speaker 1: vera you know, as I said, Miss says she left. 762 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 1: But now we're starting to find people who saw Vera alive, 763 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 1: and Vera did something without her parents' permission. She went 764 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 1: somewhere without asking them, And now that opens up another 765 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:21,680 Speaker 1: list of suspects because she no longer has a predictable schedule. 766 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,359 Speaker 1: And you'll probably have a little stroke when I tell 767 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,520 Speaker 1: you what she did. But it's gonna have to wait 768 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 1: until next week. I can remember, I told you, I 769 00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:32,359 Speaker 1: warned you this was a two parter. 770 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,239 Speaker 2: Come on, I'm sitting on pins and needles here. Where 771 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:36,960 Speaker 2: did she end up? 772 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:38,719 Speaker 1: You're gonna have to wait. 773 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 2: That's what kids do, right, You know that's a variable. 774 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:46,160 Speaker 2: And yes, I am looking forward to hearing the rest 775 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:47,799 Speaker 2: of this because I want to know what happened to her. 776 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:49,200 Speaker 1: Okay, I'll see you soon. 777 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 2: Sounds good. 778 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,960 Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our sources 779 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,520 Speaker 1: and show notes go to exactly Right Media slash Buried 780 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:05,160 Speaker 1: Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi. 781 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,680 Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson. 782 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,200 Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday. 783 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:14,799 Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel. 784 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:16,960 Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa. 785 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:20,520 Speaker 2: Lilac, executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and 786 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 2: Danielle Kramer. 787 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:25,120 Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 788 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 1: Barry Bones. 789 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,960 Speaker 2: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a 790 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,320 Speaker 2: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode 791 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,200 Speaker 2: the criminal mind, is available now 792 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:37,799 Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's 793 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:39,879 Speaker 1: cold cases is also available now