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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to step

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Speaker 1: I never told you production of iHeart Radio. And as

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Speaker 1: you know listeners, we are big horror fans here at

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Speaker 1: Smindy One costume. I didn't mention that I saw a

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Speaker 1: lot at Dragon Con that is recently at freaked me out.

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Speaker 1: Was the scream, the ghost face mask and made me nervous.

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Speaker 1: And we've already been running some horror stuff because we

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Speaker 1: have so much content around that. We've already started discussing

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Speaker 1: our horror movies that we need to watch. We've got

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Speaker 1: some plans. We've got some plans listeners, for sure, I'm

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Speaker 1: sure no shock to you at all. But in the

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Speaker 1: spirit of that, I have been meaning to bring back

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Speaker 1: this episode. This was before your time, Samantha, but bright

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Speaker 1: before your time when I bought on Lauren from Savor,

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Speaker 1: our friend and co worker uh to do an episode

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Speaker 1: with me about the trope and horror movies of why

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Speaker 1: didn't you believe her? Because once you see it, you

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Speaker 1: can't un see it. I swear it's a woman who's like, hey,

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Speaker 1: I think this is a bad idea. We shouldn't do this,

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Speaker 1: and then a guy being like no, no, no, no, no no,

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Speaker 1: you're being too emotional. Whatever it is, let's go, and

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Speaker 1: then death ensues. And since we've done this episode, I

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Speaker 1: see it all the time, and in fact, I think

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Speaker 1: I jokingly texted you and some of my other friends

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Speaker 1: the paranormal Activity movies, which I do love. Um could

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Speaker 1: essentially be summed up as a woman being like, hey,

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Speaker 1: to to a dude in her life, I think this

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Speaker 1: is bad. We shouldn't mess with it. The dude being like, oh, no,

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Speaker 1: I think it's cool. Let's see what happens. Everyone does,

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Speaker 1: but not always. Sometimes everybody just dies. But it is.

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Speaker 1: It is something where I'm just like, there it is somebody.

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Speaker 1: Usually a woman may be like, no, I think this

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Speaker 1: is a bad idea. So yes, as we move into

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Speaker 1: this season, we thought we would bring back this classic episode,

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Speaker 1: so please enjoy. Hi. This is Annie and you're listening

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Speaker 1: to stuff mom never told you. And today we're joined

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Speaker 1: by a guest co host, Lauren vulgal Bomb. Hello. That's me, Hi, Lauren, Hi,

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Speaker 1: thanks for joining us. Yeah anytime, I mean maybe not

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Speaker 1: literally anytime, because I already do a lot of other things, Yes,

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Speaker 1: including a show, a little show you may have heard

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Speaker 1: of that we co host together once food Stuff. It

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Speaker 1: is now called Savor Savor Savor. Um. It just re

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Speaker 1: launched last week. We were trying or eating lots of food,

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Speaker 1: drinking lots of drinks, a lot of people, talking to

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Speaker 1: some amazing people, and incorporating clips from those interviews into

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Speaker 1: our stories about different foods and food cultures. So it's

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Speaker 1: pretty I think it's okay. Yeah, we're not biased. No no,

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Speaker 1: And Lauren, has you've been on the show before, have

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Speaker 1: you not? I have back up back when Kristen and

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Speaker 1: Caroline where where the hosts. I was on an episode

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Speaker 1: about Buffy the Vampire Slayer because I bugged them for

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Speaker 1: years about doing an episode about Buffy. Well, you succeeded.

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Speaker 1: It was a long, hard fought campaign, but it was

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Speaker 1: you got what you in the end. And that's one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons I wanted you to come on this

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Speaker 1: week to fill in for Bridget because, Um, you like horror.

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Speaker 1: I like horror. Oh yeah, yeah. We talked about this

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Speaker 1: all the time. We do, we do um and I

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Speaker 1: feel like real life has started to feel a little

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Speaker 1: horror movie esque only just started. Yes, Um, so we

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Speaker 1: originally today we were going to talk about and we

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Speaker 1: are going to talk about the trope of in horror movies,

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Speaker 1: why don't people believe women? And it turned into that,

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Speaker 1: but also so much real life stuff. Yeah. I'm guessing

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Speaker 1: that some of you have seen or heard the phrase

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Speaker 1: believe women being tossed around lately. Yeah, so there's that

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Speaker 1: whole trend believe women trending on Twitter in response to

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Speaker 1: the accusations of assault made against Supreme Court Justice nominee

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Speaker 1: Brett Kevinaugh and the complete dismissal of these accusations are

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Speaker 1: even like just don't like, people don't care, um in

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Speaker 1: in a lot of cases. Um, and you've probably all

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Speaker 1: heard these numbers before, but I think they're worth repeating.

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Speaker 1: Sexual assault is all too common, some estimates say one

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Speaker 1: in five women, and it's more common than we think

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Speaker 1: in men as well. We don't hear about that as often,

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Speaker 1: but it should be part of the conversation. Absolutely, And

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Speaker 1: only somewhere from two to eight percent of sexual assault

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Speaker 1: accusations are found to be false, But the conversations we

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Speaker 1: have around this would suggest that false accusations just happened

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Speaker 1: all of the time. Yeah. Um, and I've been thinking

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Speaker 1: a lot about this, and I think even outside of

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Speaker 1: sexual assault. People just don't believe women. And I can

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Speaker 1: think of so many examples in my life where I've

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Speaker 1: said something like, hey, I like this song and been

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Speaker 1: interrogated about it by a dude as if that there's

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Speaker 1: no way you know this song, you like this song,

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Speaker 1: you've never heard that song? Yea? What in like a

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Speaker 1: fake geek girl way, like like you were trying to

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Speaker 1: impress them by saying that yeah. And it was weird

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Speaker 1: because I'm thinking of one particular instance, and it got

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Speaker 1: to the point where another guy who I didn't know

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Speaker 1: very well stepped in the conversation and said, dude, she's

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Speaker 1: said she likes it. I don't. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: was going on. It wasn't even that quote manly of

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Speaker 1: a thing. In fact, I would argue that that's more

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Speaker 1: traditionally feminine type music. But whatever. Another example is how

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Speaker 1: I'm happy single people, that's impossible. You're just you don't

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Speaker 1: know what you're talking about, young lady. You're just miserable.

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Speaker 1: You don't know how to recognize it yet, but you'll

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Speaker 1: you'll understand um. And I found a lot of studies

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Speaker 1: researching this that show that managers are less likely to

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Speaker 1: believe women who ask for flex time as compared to men.

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Speaker 1: They think their priorities are divided with families. It couldn't be,

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Speaker 1: because they're they're human people. The only men are people.

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Speaker 1: Women are women. That's right, that's right, that's the heart

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Speaker 1: of this whole thing. Have you ever experienced something like this? Jeez,

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Speaker 1: it feels like about once a week. Uh. My favorite

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Speaker 1: is along the fake geek girl thing when when guys.

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Speaker 1: Guys don't usually argue with me about it, but um,

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Speaker 1: but I get this response from dude sometimes where they

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Speaker 1: are shocked beyond belief that I like this geeky thing

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Speaker 1: that they also like. They're like, well, but I'm like, well,

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Speaker 1: but what They're like, well, be your girl, and I'm

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Speaker 1: like yes, And I like Batman. I don't know why

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Speaker 1: everyone likes Batman. It's it's strange. And another example, and

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Speaker 1: thinking about this this morning got me so mad. Um.

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Speaker 1: I have a bunch of intolerances to a bunch of

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Speaker 1: different foods, bell, peppers, onion, stuff like that, which I

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Speaker 1: discovered by getting like really sick repeatedly from eating dishes

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Speaker 1: that contain even just a little bit of those things,

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Speaker 1: and kind of like process of elimination, no pun intended

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Speaker 1: figuring out that it's those specific foods um and Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I had a dude argue with me about how just

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Speaker 1: just a little bit can't possibly hurt you. It can't possibly.

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Speaker 1: I was like, what do I need to record bathroom

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Speaker 1: noises and send them to you? Like I don't, he'd

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Speaker 1: probably never talked to you. Again, that's a long way

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Speaker 1: to get to solve the problem. Yeah, this is true. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've mentioned before on this show that, um, I I

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Speaker 1: often get the fake get girl thing all of the time,

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Speaker 1: and then once you finally have proven yourself, then it's

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Speaker 1: like suddenly they're super attracted to me, at least in

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Speaker 1: my case. And I'm like, so your qualifications are you

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Speaker 1: want someone who's fluent in and Marvel and that is

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Speaker 1: kind of a reflection of you. M well, that's for

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Speaker 1: a different episode. We also talked about this, this whole

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Speaker 1: thing I'm not believing women in our episode on women

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Speaker 1: in pain, how the medical community consistently dismisses women who

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Speaker 1: who come and try to get helps for pain specifically,

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Speaker 1: and it takes so much longer to get a diagnosis

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Speaker 1: for traditionally women's um issues, which is really frustrating. Oh, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: and this also ties into an intersectional issue. The medical

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Speaker 1: community also doesn't believe people of color pretty frequently. Studies

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Speaker 1: have shown that implicit biases lead doctors to prescribe fewer

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Speaker 1: pain killers and less aggressive treatments to black patients than

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Speaker 1: white patients, even when the patients present the exact same symptoms.

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Speaker 1: So there's there's a lot of issues there. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff that we need to work on. But

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Speaker 1: in this episode, we're going to try to use horror

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Speaker 1: movies as a semi fun ones to tackle a very

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Speaker 1: depressing and frustrating issue. Gay. Yeah. Um, Like we talked

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Speaker 1: about in our final Girl episode, horror movies are really

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Speaker 1: great reflections of the anxieties we have as a society,

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Speaker 1: or or the observ sans are hang ups. Just in general,

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Speaker 1: I think horror movies are a great way to sort

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Speaker 1: of test out where we are, do a little, a

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Speaker 1: little yeah, just see to see see what's going on

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Speaker 1: in the mind of the common common person. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: if if horror movies or anything to go by our

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Speaker 1: horror media in general, we do not believe women or

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Speaker 1: people of color, yes, both, alright, So even if we don't,

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Speaker 1: even if you don't because Lauren and I do. Even

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Speaker 1: if you don't watch a lot of horror movies, you

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Speaker 1: have probably seen this before in crime procedurals and supernatural killers,

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Speaker 1: anything like that. You've seen a character, most likely a

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Speaker 1: female or a minority or both, say hey, I don't

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Speaker 1: like this, let's go back and get ignored. And then

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Speaker 1: probably they're both killed, or maybe it's a bigger group

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Speaker 1: all killed by a monster in the woods or a

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Speaker 1: CEO killer in the woods, or what have you. Or

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Speaker 1: if the woman survives, the police don't believe her then,

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Speaker 1: but I will admit the monster killed my boyfriend might

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Speaker 1: be a bit of a stretch. I would I would

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Speaker 1: want to conduct some further investigation. Yes, believe women find

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Speaker 1: the truth. Yeah, I like that, which I've seen presented

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Speaker 1: as a as a useful thing in these are non horror,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to say their non horror. And these

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Speaker 1: are regular times, and these are non movie times. Yes,

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Speaker 1: those times. If it's a big conspiracy and we're all

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Speaker 1: in a movie, oh man, what a downer of a

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Speaker 1: movie it is? Okay. Um. So, while most horror movie

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Speaker 1: troops can be seen as moralistic or cautionary tales, this

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Speaker 1: one seems more just assumed. Um. Take this scene from

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Speaker 1: Night of the Living Dead, partly because it illustrates the

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Speaker 1: point and partly because it's in the public domain. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: here's the clip. Well, you used to really be scared here, Johnny,

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Speaker 1: you're still afraid. Stop it now, I mean it. They're

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Speaker 1: coming for you, Barbara. Stop it. You're acting like a child.

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Speaker 1: They're coming for you. Look, that comes one of them.

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Speaker 1: Now he'll hear you. Here he comes. Now I'm getting

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Speaker 1: out of here, Johnny. Spoiler alert. It was a zombie. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Barbara was right. Barbara was right. And we were talking

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Speaker 1: about this off Mike, and the trope is sort of

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Speaker 1: one of necessity. If the one was like, I don't

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Speaker 1: like this, let's go home, and instead of calling her

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Speaker 1: a scaredy cat, the dude was like, yeah, okay, history ends. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's no there's no movie. Then probably, But it is

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Speaker 1: interesting that a good percent of the time it is

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Speaker 1: a woman or a person of color are both that

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Speaker 1: is the one raising the the concern and then getting ignored,

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Speaker 1: totally ignored. Yeah, yeah, so much so that when it's

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Speaker 1: not a woman or a person of color, it's strange,

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Speaker 1: like it's a it's usually a purposeful reversal, it becomes

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Speaker 1: the whole point. Like it was mind blowing in the

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Speaker 1: X Files that Molder, the guy was the one jumping

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Speaker 1: to these crazy conclusions that usually turned out to be right,

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Speaker 1: and Scully was the scientific skeptic, a woman who is

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Speaker 1: a scientist. Weird, what imp um or When the stoner

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Speaker 1: character and Cabin in the Woods tells everyone that, you know,

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Speaker 1: I've got a bad feeling about this, it's played for laughs,

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Speaker 1: you know. The other characters tell him to man up

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Speaker 1: and that the weed has a paranoid man um And

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Speaker 1: of course he's right though, and the weed is what

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Speaker 1: saves him. And and note also that this very frequently

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Speaker 1: happens to child characters, Like basically none of the Harry

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Speaker 1: Potter series would have happened if the kids and the

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Speaker 1: adults trusted each other enough to fill each other in.

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Speaker 1: But the kids thought that they wouldn't be believed, and

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Speaker 1: the adult thought that the kids couldn't handle it. The

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Speaker 1: fact that this trope happens to women, people of color,

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Speaker 1: and children, I think really speaks to how infantilized those

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Speaker 1: two groups that are not children. Yeah, yeah, that's a

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Speaker 1: great point. Um And I thought about this a lot, because,

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Speaker 1: as as listeners know, I'm a huge Harry Potter fan.

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Speaker 1: And uh, it's another one of those things where the

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Speaker 1: books wouldn't have happened if that trust had been there.

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Speaker 1: Like a lot of children's books do operate on that. Um.

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Speaker 1: And when I reread them as an adult, I had

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Speaker 1: to step back because I kept getting so angry thinking

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Speaker 1: why aren't the adults help from right? Oh man, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's it's it's infuriating. Um. But but yeah, like, like interestingly,

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Speaker 1: the way that the troope does play out, disbelieving these

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Speaker 1: people is to everyone's detriment, like you know, from either

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Speaker 1: just the main characters in the movie to like the

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Speaker 1: whole world. People suffer and perish because they aren't believing

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Speaker 1: these adult human people. Yeah it's intelligent human beings. Right.

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Speaker 1: It's like it's like, I don't know if that's a

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Speaker 1: subconscious yeah addition or yeah. Um. However, I do think

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Speaker 1: that this trope of of these people being right can

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Speaker 1: also play into the sexist trope of women being preternaturally

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Speaker 1: or even magically intuitive. Um, this is a witch woman trope,

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Speaker 1: you know, the idea that ladies are just so mysterious.

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Speaker 1: Who knows what's going on in our heads. Our thought

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Speaker 1: processes are just so different. Um. You know the idea

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Speaker 1: that men are logical or observational and women are emotional

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Speaker 1: or intuitive. Yeah, I was thinking about that too, and

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Speaker 1: I was thinking that it's another way or it can

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Speaker 1: be used as another way to victim blame totally, like

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Speaker 1: you should have intuited and then we do and no

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Speaker 1: one believes us for frustrating at Yeah. And I would

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Speaker 1: say that like a high level of observational logic can

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Speaker 1: look like intuition um, similar to Arthur C. Clark's often

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Speaker 1: quoted adage that UM any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable

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Speaker 1: from from magic. UM. Like if you take Sherlock Holmes,

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Speaker 1: his whole stick is that it seems like he's intuiting

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Speaker 1: uh impossibly or even magically until he just breaks down

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Speaker 1: his very rational observations. And he's often portrayed as being

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Speaker 1: fay or feminine or otherwise non masculine. Maybe because of that,

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Speaker 1: maybe alongside that, I don't know, it's a weird. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And we're going to come back a little bit too,

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Speaker 1: this whole woman's intuition and horror movies thing. But that

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Speaker 1: is I do like that point that it can seem magical,

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Speaker 1: but really you're just reasoning, oh yeah, high level. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and you kind of you kind of see it.

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Speaker 1: You kind of see it everywhere. You've got, you know,

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Speaker 1: the fortune teller, the wise woman, the woman healer or midwife.

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Speaker 1: If you add in Nadasha racism, you've got the so

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Speaker 1: called gypsy or voodoo woman. Um. If you're if you're

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Speaker 1: in a fictional universe that incorporates magic, then like, okay,

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Speaker 1: we we can talk about those characters. You know, both

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Speaker 1: both with the metaphors that are in use there and

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Speaker 1: also with the actual history of those medicinal and of

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Speaker 1: religious practices and the fact that women have been accused

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Speaker 1: of witchery all over the place. Um. But it's so

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Speaker 1: fascinating to me that even in horror, set in a

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Speaker 1: non magical universe where the villain is just a regular dude,

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Speaker 1: you you still get this trope. Um, it'll have that moment, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that we're talking about where the woman or the token

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Speaker 1: rachel minority will express that seemingly intuitive thought this feels wrong.

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Speaker 1: I don't like it. It's not it's not magic. They're

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Speaker 1: just paying attention. Yeah, yeah, pretty much. There's a great

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Speaker 1: article over at Tour written by Emily as your parent

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Speaker 1: about this whole thing, and it was sol full when

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Speaker 1: researching this, and we're going to be referencing it throughout.

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Speaker 1: Should you want to look it up? Yeah? Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's called the Peril of Being Disbelieved, Horror and the

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Speaker 1: Intuition of Women. Yes, and we have just so many

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Speaker 1: examples for you. But first we're gonna stop for a

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Speaker 1: quick break for word from our sponsor and we're back,

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Speaker 1: Thank you, sponsor. So I'm thinking about this. The more

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Speaker 1: we thought about it, the more and more examples we

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Speaker 1: came up with. Oh yeah, I started realizing that it's

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Speaker 1: in everything. But we wanted to point out a couple,

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Speaker 1: a couple like really big strong ones. Yes, and I

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Speaker 1: wanted to start with one of my favorite favorite horror movies,

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Speaker 1: Scream and Scream Too, which is also good. Um, and

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Speaker 1: this is a great example of what we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: For those of you who haven't seen these movies. They

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Speaker 1: follow Sidney Prescott played by Nev Campbell, who in the

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Speaker 1: first one is a teenager in high school and she's

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Speaker 1: tormented by the ghost face killer. Um. I'm sure you've

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Speaker 1: seen those sort of Grim Reaper costumes. Yeah, it looks

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Speaker 1: like the Scream the painting. Oh yeah, it does look

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Speaker 1: like that. Um or how I imagine that Grim Reaper

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Speaker 1: would look. But I don't know if that's influenced by

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Speaker 1: this or vice versa. I don't know. But that's what

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Speaker 1: the killer or killers wears in these movies. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's there's gonna be spoilers in here. Just just just

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Speaker 1: f y I. I feel like the isn't the window

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Speaker 1: is past. Yeah, but if you're really concerned about it, yes,

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Speaker 1: f y Um. As we talked about in a little

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Speaker 1: bit in our final Girl episode, Scream is a hyper

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Speaker 1: aware horror movie. It's a horror movie making fun of

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Speaker 1: horror movies. Is playing off the tripes. It knows the tropes,

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Speaker 1: It knows that you know the tropes, and it uses

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Speaker 1: that to mess with you. I love the first time

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Speaker 1: I saw the first one, I thought almost every character

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Speaker 1: was the killer at some point. I loved it because

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Speaker 1: they were so great. They knew you were looking for

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Speaker 1: the which is excellent. Um. And this trope of not

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Speaker 1: being believed with a touch of gas lighting in this case,

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Speaker 1: is certainly played with here because it turns out Toiney's boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: the person who keeps telling her everything's going to be

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Speaker 1: all right. Stop being so obsessed with the past. You're

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Speaker 1: really overreacting. He's the serial killer. Yeah he um, he knew,

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Speaker 1: he knew. Oh I don't know if you can say

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Speaker 1: the character n the trope, but he knew that was

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Speaker 1: a way to like he did. He's obsessed with horror movies.

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Speaker 1: That's true. That That's an interesting thing about these movies too,

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Speaker 1: is that the killers usually reference horror movies at the

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Speaker 1: end as Yeah, I took um, I was influenced by

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Speaker 1: Anthony Perkins and Psycho like yeah, yeah, that's another interesting

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Speaker 1: aspect about these But um, if we moved to Scream

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Speaker 1: to Scream too gets super meta and I love it.

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Speaker 1: At this point, Sydney is in college and one of

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Speaker 1: her extracurricular activities is drama and oh yeah, she's being

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Speaker 1: tormented again by a ghost face killer and anyway, her

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Speaker 1: starring role is Cassandra from Greek mythology and if you

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Speaker 1: haven't heard or aren't familiar with Cassandra, she was the

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Speaker 1: daughter of Troy's last king and Troy as in Helen

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Speaker 1: of Yeah, the god Apollo was super in love with Cassandra,

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Speaker 1: and he gave her the ability to see into the

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Speaker 1: future and hopes that that would win her over. I

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Speaker 1: didn't though, I didn't work, and she she wasn't into it,

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Speaker 1: so he put a curse on her that made sure

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Speaker 1: no one would ever believe her prophecies. So she saw

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Speaker 1: agamem Noam's death, the fall of Troy. She told people

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Speaker 1: no one believed her. And if you've heard beware of

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Speaker 1: Greeks bearing gifts are possibly the translation is where the Greeks,

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Speaker 1: especially those bearing gifts. That is a quote from her in.

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Speaker 1: French philosopher Gaston Buccalard even named a syndrome after her,

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Speaker 1: the Cassandra syndrome, to describe cases where legitimate concerns were

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Speaker 1: raised and not believe yes, which brings us back to

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Speaker 1: scream too. Okay, so Sydney isn't being believed. She's playing Cassandra. Yes. Um.

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Speaker 1: There's a scene where they're rehearsing the play and Sydney

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Speaker 1: playing Cassandra. She has sort of this Greek chorus wearing

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Speaker 1: masks behind her, kind of like the stone versions of

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Speaker 1: those tragedy comedy faces, and the chorus begins to do

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Speaker 1: this dance attack type thing at her. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of choreography involved. Um, only she's not acting anymore because

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Speaker 1: she sees that one of the actors is wearing the

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Speaker 1: ghost face mask under their hood. But no one believes her.

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Speaker 1: And it's great because they're chanting there, like chanting behind

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Speaker 1: her hill, Cassandra, no one believes you. It's wild. And

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Speaker 1: the finale of the movie takes place on that stage

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Speaker 1: and Sydney uses a lot of the props, the disorienting music,

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Speaker 1: the lights, the heavy bags holding up the lights, the

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Speaker 1: falling of styrofoam rocks and pillars, the fog machine in

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Speaker 1: her battle against the killer. And to me, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of saying that we haven't really gotten that far from

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Speaker 1: ancient mythological Greece when it comes to believing women that

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Speaker 1: it's a battle that we're still fighting. But I've been

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Speaker 1: known to perhaps read too much into horror movies. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: Here is a clip from this scene, so dramatic, right, Oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we were, we were just like we we watched we

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Speaker 1: actually watched the clipping studio and uh and and producer

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Speaker 1: Andrew and I. Neither of us have seen this film

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Speaker 1: in like about twenty years and so it's I forgot

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Speaker 1: how much I freaked out when that scene happened in

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Speaker 1: the theater. It's great. Um yeah, there are layers upon

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Speaker 1: layers of um it playing on on the first one,

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Speaker 1: on the whole fear of the boyfriend. Now, of course Randy,

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Speaker 1: the character who has all the horror movie rules, horror

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Speaker 1: movie rules about sequels. Um, when she goes to the police,

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Speaker 1: they don't believe her when she says, I think it's

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Speaker 1: this Yeah. Yeah. The entire sequel is basically about her

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Speaker 1: not being believed. Yeah. Wow. It's a pretty good example

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Speaker 1: for what we're talking about. Yeah. Also, I didn't know

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Speaker 1: this that there is an ABBA song about Cassandra and

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Speaker 1: it's it goes like, sorry, I didn't believe you, You're

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Speaker 1: right now we're all dead or some I know, getting

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Speaker 1: getting serious there, I I have I have an example,

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Speaker 1: um that that I wanted to discuss that isn't about women,

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Speaker 1: but going back to the intersectionality of people of color

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Speaker 1: also having this happen in horror films. Um. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk about get Out. Yeah, this is another film

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Speaker 1: that is very reflexive about its tropes. It expects you

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Speaker 1: to have these certain expectations and it uses that to

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Speaker 1: mess with you. Um, if you have not seen it

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Speaker 1: and you like either horror films or ridiculous, sleep canny

401
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Speaker 1: explorations of racism in liberal white America, stop this podcast

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Speaker 1: right now and go watch it because A it's really

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Speaker 1: good and be I'm going to spoil everything. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: so good. Yeah, okay. So so get Out is a

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Speaker 1: story about a black man's intuitive fears being valid to

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Speaker 1: the extreme. Our hero Chris, has anxiety from the get

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Speaker 1: go about driving out to the country to meet his

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Speaker 1: white girlfriend's family. She assures him that everything will be fine.

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Speaker 1: Everything is not fine. Her family and their friends are

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Speaker 1: like walking microaggressions, and the one other black dude there

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Speaker 1: who is not a servant, gives Chris this panicked, cryptic

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Speaker 1: warning to get out. Um. Chris is increasingly unsettled. He

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Speaker 1: asked his girlfriend if they can leave, and you know what,

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Speaker 1: she says. Yes, She's like, oh, of course, of course

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Speaker 1: we can go. She believes him immediately, and Chris is

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Speaker 1: relief and like mine, watching this movie is intense and palpable. Um, Like,

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Speaker 1: you never expect that to happen in a scary movie,

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Speaker 1: but hell, is your characters being believed. Of course, this is,

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Speaker 1: you know, a horror movie, so it's a trick. Of course,

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Speaker 1: she's in on her family's plot to kidnap Chris and

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Speaker 1: supplant his consciousness with that of one of their white friends,

422
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: because Chris's body is healthy, their friends is not. In

423
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: Black lives don't matter. But y'all that moment where she

424
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 1: says that she believes him, I know, it's it kind

425
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 1: of goes back to what you were saying earlier about

426
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 1: how the purposeful. It seems so odd to have Skully

427
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: be the skeptic and scientifically it seems purposeful that moment.

428
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: I remember that too, being like, oh my gosh, it's

429
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 1: so refreshing, right, and then it's not. It's totally a

430
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: purpose um. The film also explicitly portrays black people not

431
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: being believed by police. Um On on the way to

432
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: her family's house, Chris and the girlfriend hit a deer

433
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 1: and a cop shows up, a white cop, and even

434
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: though she was the one driving, the cop asks Chris

435
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 1: for his I D and only backs off when the

436
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: girlfriend insists that it's unfair and unnecessary. Um. And later

437
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 1: when Chris contacts a black friend about how weird everything

438
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,120
Speaker 1: is out out of the ranch. The friend calls the police,

439
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: but he is also dismissed. Um. And all of that

440
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: pays off with one more twist at the end that uh,

441
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: what was another moment that I was just like, well

442
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: in the theater, like I didn't even know what was

443
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: happening to my face. Um, so so you know, it's

444
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: it's the end sequence. Chris is fighting the girlfriend for

445
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 1: his life and he's winning. Yeah. But but out of

446
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: the night, a police car approaches. And I've heard personally

447
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: never been that scared by police showing up. And it

448
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: was a profound privilege check for me, Like it was

449
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: one of those moments where I was just like, oh, oh, oh,

450
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 1: I get it. Thank you for telling me about it.

451
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 1: I'm listening, and I'm so sorry for like not getting

452
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: it previously. Um. And it turns out to be Chris's

453
00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: friend who's a T S A agent, And I don't

454
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: care the probably they don't get cars like that because again,

455
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: just like that sense of relief, like you know, if

456
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: it had been cops, cops never would have believed him,

457
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: our judiciary system never would have believed him. Um. And

458
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: it turned out okay, which was such a relief. I

459
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: read that the original ending of the film actually had

460
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: cops show up and that the final scene is Chris

461
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: in in jail or prison, um, and I am so

462
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: glad that Jordan Peele gave us that relief instead, even

463
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: if it's probably not realistic. Yeah, I think I saw

464
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: the alternate ending. I think you can see it, and

465
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 1: it was so it was just dismal. Yeah, it was

466
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: quite dismal. Um. But that was another That is another

467
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: great example of a a couple of things, a lot

468
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: of things, but a couple of things that we're talking

469
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: about of horror movies being reflective of of society and um,

470
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: fears that we have in society, and also just a

471
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: movie that knows it's true, hopes and messes with you

472
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: because it knows that you know them too. Great. Ah yeah,

473
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: so smart. Yeah, well, well to lighten things up a

474
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: little bit, he was some sillier examples. I thought of, Yeah,

475
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: drive home, how calmon, this trope is hocus pocus. Yeah,

476
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: so I watched last night. Oh it's a good movie.

477
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: Stayed up very late, or it's a silly movie. It's

478
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: it's a movie I enjoy watching. That's probably the best

479
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: way to describe it. I watched it so much as

480
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: a kid. It was banned from my household. I'm not

481
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 1: allowed to watch it. In fact, I didn't watch it

482
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: from about the age of eight until about the age

483
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: of four because my parents Nope, never again. So funny. Um.

484
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: When Danny, who's a little sister, tells her brother Max

485
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: not to light the black flame candle, he goes right

486
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: ahead and does it. She says she's scared. She doesn't

487
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 1: want to do it. It's a dumb idea. H He's

488
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: trying to impress, Yeah, a lady friend. But she doesn't

489
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,959
Speaker 1: want him to do it either. Yeah, She's like, I'm scared,

490
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: don't do that. Also, it's like a museum. Yeah. Anyway,

491
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: we my friends and I played a drinking game to

492
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: it last night, and every time they said, Hollywood, you

493
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: had to take a drink. Um community in community, um britta.

494
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: That's sort of a bit about the steps to writing

495
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 1: horror movies. And one of the episodes, and she tells

496
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: the story of a man and woman making out in

497
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: a car and the woman keeps hearing something and the

498
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: dude only agrees to check it out if she promises

499
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: to give him sex when he returns, so he doesn't

500
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: yeah believe her. Yeah, but he'll use it, but he'll

501
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: use it to get sex. Yeah, great thriller. The music

502
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: video which I've never seen before, or i'd seen the

503
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: like short one, but there's a long thirteen minutes. Yeah,

504
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: it's beautiful. Well, the whole plot thread is essentially this

505
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: whole thing with Michael Jackson telling his date don't be

506
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: afraid because it's only a movie. But the next then,

507
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: of course, it turns out that it's not just a

508
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 1: movie and she is followed by zombies. So that's encapsulated

509
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: right there. Yeah, if you haven't seen it, check it out.

510
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,959
Speaker 1: I enjoyed it quite a bit. Oh and it just

511
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: like like yeah, like once we started thinking about it,

512
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: it's hard not to pile up the the the examples

513
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: of it. Um. I think it's interesting that in some

514
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: of these stories it's it's not just other people disbelieving women,

515
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 1: it's women doubting themselves, stuff like the Boba Duke, The Ring,

516
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 1: Rosemary's Baby, Hunting of Hillhouse, Hereditary, the Shining Joy, Spuyers,

517
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: and Stranger Things. I also think it's really interesting that

518
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: all those characters are mothers. Yes, and I'm not sure

519
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 1: what exactly that says. I think that's another episode about

520
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: about motherhood and horror movies. But oh yeah yeah, um,

521
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: of course all of these women finally do like own

522
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 1: the fact that something we're just happening and reach out

523
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: for help and they're disbelieved. But yeah uh and speaking

524
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 1: of stranger things, oh okay, I keep getting excited. Uh.

525
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: I do love that the two young women, um eleven

526
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: and Nancy are a lot more confident, like they don't

527
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: doubt themselves. Um, I mean they're they're also dismissed, but

528
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: but at least, you know, I don't know, like it's

529
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: it's better sweet like they I think the point is

530
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 1: that they haven't had that confidence in their own senses

531
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: ground out of them yet. That is more bitter than

532
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: sweet perhaps, but um, I I do enjoy that as well.

533
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 1: Here's hoping that. Yeah, these fictional characters keep fighting the

534
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 1: good fight. Absolutely. Um. Right before we started podcasting, producer

535
00:33:54,280 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: Andrew reminded us of Aliens alien to it's the second

536
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: one that is aliens with an S and not alien singular.

537
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: But the I just watched this recently as well, because

538
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 1: I do like a whole two month horror movie thing um.

539
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: And in the beginning, there's this committee of business people

540
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: and lawyers questioning replace the corney Weaver's character about her

541
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,439
Speaker 1: experience on LV too for six or whatever it is

542
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: um with the alien, and no one believes her. Yeah.

543
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,479
Speaker 1: She keeps saying, like, it destroyed my career, destroyed my ship.

544
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 1: The only way I could get out was to jettison

545
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 1: it and escape on this whole on the little pod.

546
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 1: And they're all like, acid comes out on his rains.

547
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 1: They're like, lady, that's patently silly, that's just jo. Do

548
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: you know how much money we lost? Yeah? Yeah, they

549
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: keep bringing that up, the whole money thing um. And

550
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 1: then when she she's talking to the sort of marine

551
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 1: the alien marines, the space marines, Alien marines, marines, um,

552
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: and she's trying to share a story, and to me

553
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 1: is obviously like having dividculty. It's clear she has this experience.

554
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 1: They sort of are just like, okay, yeah, sure whatever, Yeah,

555
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,280
Speaker 1: it's just not that scary. Yeah, sure, it's not that bad. Um.

556
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 1: Pretty much, And every episode of Supernatural, the TV series,

557
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: starts with this some version of this. Sure. A lot

558
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 1: of episodes of Buffy Too yeah, yeah, yeah, and and

559
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: frequently it's one of the it's one of the actual

560
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,800
Speaker 1: Scoopy Gang. Like the number of times that Buffy herself

561
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: is disbelieved by everyone around here is truly remarkable because

562
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: it's just like, y'all, we did this last week and

563
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: the week before that, um, paranormal activity to where it's

564
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 1: kind of an interesting dynamic and um, if you haven't

565
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 1: seen this, you probably know the gist of it. But

566
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:11,320
Speaker 1: basically it's this couple and her boyfriend. It's weird because

567
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: it's like he believes her because he wants to. He

568
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 1: believes that there's paranormal activity. He wants to capture it,

569
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: but he doesn't believe her when she's telling him how

570
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 1: serious and dangerous it is. So it's kind of a strange,

571
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: like he's excited by it. He keeps inviting it in

572
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: and she's saying no, like this is a scary thing

573
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: we need to bring to mess with it. In fact,

574
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 1: I think we should go do this and try to

575
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: fix it, and he keeps saying, I can fix it,

576
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,720
Speaker 1: it's not that bad. He doesn't believe her when she's

577
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 1: saying she's telling him the consequences and the severity the

578
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,399
Speaker 1: seriousness of it, which is an interesting kind of take

579
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:53,280
Speaker 1: on the whole thing. Um and we when we're talking

580
00:36:53,280 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 1: about this, you might wonder why is this troupe so common?

581
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: Probably you have a good idea, but talked about it anyway. Emily,

582
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 1: as your parent, in that article that we reverence at

583
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,399
Speaker 1: the top, wrote, every woman knows what this feels like.

584
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 1: They know what it means, They know how hard the

585
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: world works not to believe them. And this particular narrative

586
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,399
Speaker 1: device always feels like a pointed jab, a great big

587
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 1: spotlight on that precise problem. It doesn't even matter if

588
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 1: it's intentional. In fact, the idea that it might be

589
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 1: unintentional makes it all the more poignant. Filmmakers and script

590
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,800
Speaker 1: writers accidentally pointing out how women's fears are never taken

591
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: seriously again and again. And why would she have that

592
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 1: sense when no one else was bothered? Oh, you know,

593
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: probably women's intuition. But intuition is not a magical power

594
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 1: granted to half the population by sheer random happenstance. It's

595
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,399
Speaker 1: not the consolation prize you drew because the world calls

596
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: you a woman. Intuition is an ability built up over time,

597
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: powered partly by animal instinct and partly by learning and

598
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 1: partly by experience. Any human being can tap into intuition,

599
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: but women are constantly pegged as the humans who own

600
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 1: this preternatural ability. Why because women are supposed to be

601
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 1: on their guard every second of the day. Because our

602
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: very existence in the right skirt or pair of high

603
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,800
Speaker 1: heels is an invitation to untold abuses. Because we're not

604
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 1: supposed to trust anyone, but we're supposed to be unfailingly

605
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 1: sweet to everyone. Women are intuitive because tapping that intuition

606
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,439
Speaker 1: is something that we are encouraged towards from the day

607
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: we were born, for the sake of our safety and

608
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:38,959
Speaker 1: our lives. Yeah, you know, women and people of color

609
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 1: have to pay attention. We have to control how we

610
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: move through the world more carefully. You know. We we

611
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: make note of our surroundings. We pick up on nonverbal cues.

612
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: It's a learned skill. Yeah. Um, And I was thinking,

613
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: I haven't seen this horror movie in a while, but

614
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,959
Speaker 1: I was thinking about the silence of the lambs Buffalo Bill.

615
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 1: He says something along the lines of wouldn't believe how

616
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 1: many people like even though they're scared, are too afraid

617
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,919
Speaker 1: to be rude. Oh yeah, right, I remember that part. Yeah,

618
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: like they'll put their safety at risk. And I feel

619
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,919
Speaker 1: that all the time, where I do think that, Um,

620
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: women are socialized to be so polite and so nice

621
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: and so friendly. Also watch out and watch out. It's

622
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 1: your fault if anything happens, I mean, if it really

623
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: did happen. Yeah, yeah, um. We we do have some

624
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: more history and science science about why women, UM and

625
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 1: people of color are less likely to be believed. But

626
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 1: first we're going to pause for one more quick break

627
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: for word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor. So,

628
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: as we've said before on this show and in this

629
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 1: very episode, harmonies are a great mirror the hold up

630
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,320
Speaker 1: to society. And this is no exception on a large

631
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 1: societal scale. We don't trust women. They're over dramatic, they overreact,

632
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:17,399
Speaker 1: people of color to their unreliable narrators, all of us UM.

633
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,280
Speaker 1: And this goes back forever UM in the case of women,

634
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 1: in the case of people of color, that the modern

635
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 1: concepts of race are relatively recent constructs UM created and

636
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 1: perpetuated during globalization and the and the slave trade to

637
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 1: dehumanize and discredit enslaved people's and since then popular culture

638
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 1: has largely drawn people of color as unintelligent brutes. This

639
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: pervaded in the United States via minstrel shows basically right

640
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 1: up until the Civil rights movement in the middle of

641
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: the twentieth century. Um. But you know, although most people

642
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 1: know that like black face is bad now, um, those

643
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 1: biases are absolutely still part of our culture. Yeah. For women, Um,

644
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 1: there's ane Pirus from It's the oldest known medical text

645
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:09,359
Speaker 1: that actually describes depressive symptoms, and it blames women's mental

646
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: health problems on their uteruses moving around their bodies making trouble.

647
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, um yeah. Hop over to ancient Greece.

648
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 1: A few centuries later you get physicians talking about uterine melancholy. Um.

649
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 1: Hippocrates gave us the first written mention of hysteria around

650
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 1: five b C. Hysteria being described as an anxiety and

651
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 1: other symptoms in women caused by a bad and again

652
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 1: wandering uterus. I don't know why they thought it detached?

653
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,320
Speaker 1: Is it like a ghostly uterus? I don't know. No,

654
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:46,399
Speaker 1: I think it was physical, because they would they would

655
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 1: give you like they would like put like good smelling

656
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,439
Speaker 1: things by your nose, and like bad smelling things by

657
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 1: your by your badge if if they wanted it to

658
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 1: move higher up in your body, and they would reverse that.

659
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 1: It's very sensitive to smell if they wanted it to

660
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 1: move back down again. I know. That's why they didn't

661
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,800
Speaker 1: let women wide trains for a while, because they thought that,

662
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: like any suns stop heck, although that could have just

663
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:15,800
Speaker 1: been they didn't want women writing tricks. I don't know,

664
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 1: I don't know for sure. Uh yeah. In the case

665
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 1: of ancient Greece, the cure for this was generally having

666
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: sex with men. Oh, of course, because men were believed

667
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: to be superior um and uh so later those those

668
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 1: those beliefs were codified into religion. You know, Eve was

669
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,879
Speaker 1: physically mentally weaker than Adam, so she's the one who

670
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:45,720
Speaker 1: fell for the serpent's trick. Yeah and yeah. The belief

671
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 1: in women being irrational due to problems with their sex

672
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: organs lasted into the century. That's why it's why vibrators

673
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 1: were invented. People were like, ladies, you you really need

674
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: to You can't be coming into the doctor's office this

675
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 1: been to get have a vibrator to have orgasms. We

676
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 1: need to give you a take home method. Of solving

677
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: this problem. They didn't call it orgasms then, but yeah,

678
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: well one, that's one good thing I suppose. Oh and

679
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: I do want to put in here that, of course,

680
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,720
Speaker 1: it is completely possible for hormones to affect your mental health.

681
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: But like dudes have hormones too, breaking news. I'm sorry

682
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 1: you had to learn it here, but learn it you did. Yeah,

683
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: if we if we bring all of this back to

684
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 1: the whole hashtag believer and Brett kavanaw thing um. When

685
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 1: it comes to sexual assault, there has been some science

686
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: looking into why we don't believe women, and it has

687
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 1: to do with how the brain handles trauma. Survivors don't

688
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: outwardly act how folks think they should. Instead of a

689
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 1: sobbing mess, they might see kind of cold, and that's

690
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:06,919
Speaker 1: because a lot of survivors experience disassociation from their body. Also,

691
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,479
Speaker 1: a lot of times their memories might seem flimsy, which

692
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 1: causes people to doubt them. But again, this is your

693
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 1: brain shutting down all other functions that don't have to

694
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:20,280
Speaker 1: do with pure survival during a traumatic, potentially life threatening event.

695
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 1: And in some cases it's not that you can't remember,

696
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 1: it's just you have difficulty retrieving it and describing it.

697
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 1: Another thing the brain does that plays into this has

698
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 1: to do with how it handles and often rejects new

699
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 1: information that challenges accepted patterns are perceptions. If you find

700
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 1: out a friend of yours, someone you've known for a

701
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 1: long time, is accused of sexual assault, this challenge is

702
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: something you've long held to be true, and your brain

703
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 1: is like, Nope, no, can't be obviously not. Yeah. You

704
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 1: can be presented with all these facts and your brain

705
00:44:54,360 --> 00:45:00,320
Speaker 1: is just um. But it is interesting to point out

706
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 1: once a man gets involved, the story kind of changes.

707
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 1: Six women had accused Bill Cosby of sexual assault, and

708
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 1: Tina Fey referenced these accusations twice, once on a weekend

709
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 1: to update another time on thirty Rock. But it was

710
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 1: when the comedian Hannibal Burris called Bill Cosby a rapist

711
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,280
Speaker 1: and one of his bits that people started to think, oh,

712
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 1: oh no, maybe we should look into this. It took

713
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 1: a man to legitimize the conversation and lead to actual action,

714
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 1: and just to drive this point home, in some countries

715
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,879
Speaker 1: around the world, rape allegations have to be corroborated by

716
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: one or more men, and that used to be the

717
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 1: case in some some states in the US as well. Yeah.

718
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 1: Another way to look at this whole thing is how

719
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 1: in our society we elevate the desires of men at

720
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:53,240
Speaker 1: the expense of women. Like in this whole conversation about

721
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 1: Brett Kavanaugh, the accusers are destroying his life and his future,

722
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: but never mind the lives and future, just general well

723
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:06,320
Speaker 1: being of the women involved. Yeah. Oh, and in the nineties,

724
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: the Philadelphia Police sex crimes unit called themselves the Lion

725
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:19,399
Speaker 1: Bitches Unit. Uh yeah, so sweet. Yeah the article I read,

726
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:22,399
Speaker 1: they didn't seem too upset about getting found out either.

727
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: Yeah uh um I read. I read an excellent essay

728
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 1: by Stephanie Merritt in The Guardian called the Cult of

729
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 1: the Unreliable Female Narrator Must be Stopped um, in which

730
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 1: she argues that society's disbelief of women is exactly what

731
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: makes horror movies like the ones that we've talked about

732
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 1: today so effectively frightening. Um. She She says that because

733
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 1: men are less vulnerable in our society, those creative works

734
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: wouldn't have quote the same atmosphere of claustrophobic menace if

735
00:46:56,080 --> 00:47:02,319
Speaker 1: the main characters were male. Yeah. Um, I feel like

736
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 1: we could keep talking about this forever and keep bring

737
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: up examples forever. But that kind of reminds me of

738
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 1: the Witch. Oh yeah. Um, Which what I found so

739
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 1: frightening about that movie was, um, it did such a

740
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 1: great job of driving home to me why um we

741
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 1: we read about the Salem witch trials all the time

742
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 1: and it feels kind of at least in my case,

743
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 1: it's always felt kind of distant. But that just brought

744
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 1: home to me how there's no way to prove you

745
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: aren't a wish. No one believed the main character thomasin um, yeah,

746
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 1: you can't prove that you're not possessed by the demon,

747
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 1: And it was terrifying. Um, no one believed her. And

748
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 1: I think that's what made it so relatable, is even

749
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 1: if we're not exactly trying to ward off accusations of witchcraft,

750
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 1: although I mean you can see parallels certainly and in

751
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:05,479
Speaker 1: some things, that idea of not being believed is scary

752
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:12,240
Speaker 1: and absolutely yeah, And I think that really as a society,

753
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 1: we don't want to believe women because we don't want

754
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 1: to have to deal with it. We don't want to

755
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: have to deal with what it means and with having

756
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: to do the work too, to fix it, to combat

757
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 1: what these women, all these women are saying is happening. Yeah.

758
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 1: I think it's the same reason that there's such pushback

759
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 1: against Black Lives Matter, because people are like, well, you know,

760
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:36,879
Speaker 1: like that that intrinsic response that all lives matter thing

761
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 1: is essentially saying like, there's no problem, right, Like, why

762
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 1: are you saying that there's a problem. Stop saying that

763
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:46,359
Speaker 1: there's a problem. Yeah, because if you admit that, then

764
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 1: you have to admit that you have to work on it,

765
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 1: exactly right, that it's it's a lot of work, and

766
00:48:52,000 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 1: and it is frightening. It's frightening. Um balloons, balloons. Uh oh,

767
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 1: I just watched it recently. No balloons. So this brings

768
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 1: us to the end of this episode, which I I

769
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 1: foolishly when I pitched it to you, Lauren, thought it

770
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 1: was going to be a much more cheerful thing. I

771
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 1: don't know what I was thinking. I was like, we

772
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:27,359
Speaker 1: can relate this to current events, which are great, so

773
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 1: much fun know what I was thinking. But it was

774
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 1: really enlightening to do. As someone like I said, we

775
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 1: both watch a lot of hard movies, and I'm going

776
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 1: to guess that for a lot of you. You're not

777
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 1: going to be able to unsee this now. Uh, it's

778
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,840
Speaker 1: really everywhere it is. It is, And I don't know,

779
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 1: and I do think that it's it's It's an interesting

780
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: and like culturally useful trope, especially in discussions like this,

781
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:57,320
Speaker 1: you know, like once you're aware of it, then yeah,

782
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 1: hopefully you can do stuff to help change it, one

783
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 1: would hope. And we're all about change again, growing for

784
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 1: the better here. Um, thank you so much for being

785
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 1: on the show. Um, hopefully you'll you'll come back. We

786
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 1: can talk some more horror movies one other things. I

787
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 1: won't type cast you whatever you want to talk about. Yes, no,

788
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 1: I thank you so much for having me. This has

789
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,280
Speaker 1: been This has been a lot of fun. Yeah, and um,

790
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,280
Speaker 1: you can always find the both of us on Saver.

791
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 1: We would love for you to come check that out. Um,

792
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:36,800
Speaker 1: and I think I've mentioned before I love fan fiction,

793
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,840
Speaker 1: and uh, we we're trying to get a little maybe

794
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 1: a mini series or on and off against series of

795
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: reading stuff that you you listeners have written. So if

796
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 1: you have any fiction, nonfiction, anything fan fiction that you've

797
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 1: created that you are cool with us reading on the air,

798
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 1: please send it in UM we might even get some

799
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 1: voices and some production some production work into it. UM.

800
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I would love for any of y'all

801
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 1: to send some stuff like that in UM. Also just UM.

802
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 1: Another mini series we're thinking about doing is What's something

803
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 1: your Mom Never told you? Because you know the show,

804
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 1: we'll get back to our roots a little bit. So

805
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 1: if you have anything like that, we would love to

806
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 1: hear it. You can email us at mom Stuff at

807
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com. You can find us on

808
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 1: Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast and on Instagram at stuff

809
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 1: I've Never Told You. Thanks as always to our producer

810
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 1: Andrew Howard, and thanks to you for listening.