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Speaker 1: Kushkin.

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Speaker 2: This season of The Chinatown Sting has been about the

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Speaker 2: rise and fall of one gang, in particular the Flying Dragons.

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Speaker 2: I tried over and over it to get the perspective

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Speaker 2: of someone who'd actually been in the gang, but no

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Speaker 2: one was willing to speak to me until now today.

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Speaker 2: An interview with someone who's going to tell us about

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Speaker 2: the harsh life he led in the gang, how it

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Speaker 2: recruited kids, and how it all came to an end

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Speaker 2: for him. I'm Lady Jane Kott, and this is a

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Speaker 2: special bonus episode of.

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Speaker 1: The Chinatown Sting.

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Speaker 2: Cowboy, who now goes by CB, came to the US

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Speaker 2: from Hong Kong in nineteen seventy one when he was

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Speaker 2: six years old. He joined the Flying Dragons shortly after

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Speaker 2: he started high school. That was back when a man

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Speaker 2: named Michael Chen aka the Scientist, was the leader of

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Speaker 2: the gang. In nineteen eighty three, the Scientist was shot

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Speaker 2: and CB managed to stay on in the gang as

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Speaker 2: it acquired a new boss, Johnny Ing aka Onion Head.

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Speaker 2: We actually heard CB's voice in an earlier episode. He

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Speaker 2: was interviewed on the YouTube channel Chinatown Gang Stories.

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Speaker 3: Onion was like a different regime. He was like, go

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Speaker 3: out make money everyone. It was like the Soviet Union

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Speaker 3: they disbanded. You give a freedom, they go, say to yourself,

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Speaker 3: what the fuck I will do with it. We don't

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Speaker 3: know how to make money except distributing drugs. So that

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Speaker 3: was the new era.

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Speaker 2: CEB would later serve almost two decades in prison for

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Speaker 2: drug charges unrelated to the trial against Johnny, and then

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Speaker 2: for racketeering. He was one of many Flying Dragon members

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Speaker 2: indicted in nineteen ninety four. He was released in two

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Speaker 2: thousand and seven. I met with CB at a tea

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Speaker 2: shop on Pell Street, right by the Flying Dragon's old headquarters.

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Speaker 2: He was honest about how brutal the gang used to be,

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Speaker 2: but not as remorseful as you might expect. I asked

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Speaker 2: him why he joined the gang in the first place.

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Speaker 4: Well, from my early days I was bullied.

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Speaker 3: When I came to the country, I lived in the

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Speaker 3: Bronx of all places, so my conditioning started there. Like

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Speaker 3: I always said, this was like nineteen seventy one. If

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Speaker 3: you look at my school year picture, I went to kindergarten,

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Speaker 3: I think first grade, second grade. You see in the

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Speaker 3: yearful pictures, you see some brown faces, some black faces. Wife,

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Speaker 3: there's only one yellow face, which was mine in the

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Speaker 3: whole school and maybe in that whole damn community. I'm

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Speaker 3: not kidding, and listen, don't understand. Kids are the meanness

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Speaker 3: every day when I went to school, it was an

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Speaker 3: exercise in survival.

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Speaker 4: I'm not kidding.

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Speaker 3: I was walking and decide the street with my little backpack.

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Speaker 3: I see a bunch of kids that I walked the

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Speaker 3: other way, but they always see me every day. It

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Speaker 3: was like ing John with me, so I had to

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Speaker 3: either fight of like that type of lifestyle conditioning changed

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Speaker 3: me in a certain way to begin with, you know

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Speaker 3: what I mean. Long story short, fast forward. I'm in

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Speaker 3: Queen's Vacational High School. There was a branch or the

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Speaker 3: Flying Dragons there, the green section right there. So I

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Speaker 3: had a run in with them and they accosted me,

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Speaker 3: approached me. Back then, there was a thing with Chinese

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Speaker 3: right when you see another Chinese person.

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Speaker 4: They bethinking he's a game?

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Speaker 3: Might not you approach him and you literally confront him

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Speaker 3: and say where are you from?

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Speaker 1: To find out?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, which you would tell by your attitude and your responses.

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Speaker 4: You know what I mean. There's a purpose to that one.

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Speaker 3: You could root out enemy gangs too. It's a possible recruitment,

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean. And young kids all want

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Speaker 3: to belong to something. And the reason why I chose

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Speaker 3: the Flying Dragons was they had a moral foundation. What

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Speaker 3: they preached to me and the originally was that we're

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Speaker 3: here to protect the Chinese community. I mean it sounds

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Speaker 3: a little bit hypocritical though, but they said that we're

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Speaker 3: not supposed to deal with drugs. We're not supposed to

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Speaker 3: hurt civilians, meaning elderly ladies, women, children, We do not

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Speaker 3: commit rape.

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Speaker 4: These are basic laws that they were told me. And

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Speaker 4: I said, whoa, this is.

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Speaker 3: Something I could get down with our apartments here, one

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Speaker 3: of the cardinal rules was no girls can go up there.

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Speaker 3: So our leader at that time, Michael chen Right, it

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Speaker 3: was very serious what he did.

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Speaker 2: He was a leader before Onion Head. Yes, and he

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Speaker 2: was known as the Scientist.

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Speaker 3: Yes, he had a lot of rules. He ran this

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Speaker 3: with a strict iron.

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Speaker 2: So you moved into one of these apartments here on

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Speaker 2: Pell Street as a teenager.

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Speaker 4: Yes.

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Speaker 3: When I first came down here, my bed was four

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Speaker 3: chairs put together. Oh wow, yes, you have to go

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Speaker 3: to a probation. He tested you to see do you

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Speaker 3: have the right stuff to be a full fledged member.

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Speaker 3: Actually he also did psychological profile me. A lot of

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Speaker 3: us were actually only sons, so we're looking to belong somewhere,

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Speaker 3: and a lot of us, my fellow brothers a generation,

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Speaker 3: we were all.

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Speaker 4: Picked one and bullied.

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Speaker 2: He needed people who really wanted to feel like they

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Speaker 2: belonged in the gang.

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Speaker 1: And we're gonna be like committed to it.

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Speaker 4: Yes, because we were bullied.

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Speaker 3: We wanted to fight back, but we didn't have the

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Speaker 3: power fight back. So he knew how to profile us

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Speaker 3: that way, and in retrospect, he built an army of

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Speaker 3: freaking ultra violent people because we all had a common

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Speaker 3: element of hatred for them.

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Speaker 1: Shadows, which were it. Yeah, I was gonna say, not

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Speaker 1: too far. Also, can you tell me about the war

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Speaker 1: with the ghost shadows?

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Speaker 3: But we foll every day almost right. But it's political too.

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Speaker 2: Because you guys were both fighting for who was going

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Speaker 2: to be the most important you.

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Speaker 3: Know what, The line, or should I say, the indoctrination

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Speaker 3: fit was that we are.

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Speaker 4: The protectors of this community, not them.

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Speaker 3: So in respect, we felt like robin hoods and we

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Speaker 3: felt that they were the Antichrist, so we had to

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Speaker 3: come back them I mean that's how that's once against

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Speaker 3: that with teenagers too young, that.

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Speaker 2: Was maybe they had the opposite story exactly.

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Speaker 3: Maybe they were taught something else to this is what

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Speaker 3: we were taught to believe it.

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Speaker 2: And what was the relationship between because also on Pell

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Speaker 2: Street you had the gambling parlor and then you also

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Speaker 2: had the Hip Sang association, right, and what was the

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Speaker 2: relationship between you guys in your apartment.

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Speaker 3: And the because back then in the days, right, the

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Speaker 3: FDS nine Joints was the military arm for the hip

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Speaker 3: syns Okay under the Uncle seven regime, Uncle Benny regime, who.

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Speaker 1: Was the head of the of the hip saying yes, and.

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Speaker 4: He was he was finally looked at us like the

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Speaker 4: godfather of China.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: What about where were the Uncle Sevin's gambling houses? Where

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Speaker 2: were the locations?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's of information. Number fifteen's over there and the

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Speaker 3: famous number nine right.

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Speaker 4: Next to us.

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Speaker 3: We had apartment upstairs which was used to monitor street

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Speaker 3: activity and act as a protection over there. We had

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Speaker 3: an apartment across the street there too and went down

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Speaker 3: there too. So all this was a purpose of just sleeping,

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Speaker 3: not partying, nothing else. And you also get use it

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Speaker 3: as a place where you put the troops. You gotta

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Speaker 3: be close by you close by the cloud. Think of

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Speaker 3: it as troop barracks. Barracks were the soldiers.

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Speaker 1: How did you get your nickname?

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Speaker 4: Cowboy?

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Speaker 3: Let's just say I was a little bit like like

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Speaker 3: like the image goal, a little bit rampunctious and reckless

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Speaker 3: when I was young, as I was small, I was

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Speaker 3: the youngest of the crowd, young or small. But it's

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Speaker 3: just it because I was picked on so much.

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Speaker 4: I fight. Some people come out and put machetes on me.

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Speaker 4: Every day was violence, you know when we were young.

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Speaker 4: You know how we were trained to fight? Street fighting.

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Speaker 4: I don't know even know.

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Speaker 3: Back in the days, there was a lot of vagabonds,

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Speaker 3: bums how you are called on the streets of Bowie.

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Speaker 4: They lay all over the streets, all over. It's not

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Speaker 4: like this.

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Speaker 3: So our elders will tell us it sounds cruel to

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Speaker 3: practice on them, but.

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Speaker 4: We will kick them out. We're tell them to get

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Speaker 4: off the street.

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Speaker 3: We thought we're doing the service because they're lying front

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Speaker 3: of the business stores and everything, and we're here to protect

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Speaker 3: the neighborhood, clean up the airs, and we'll tell them

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Speaker 3: to move if they don't move then, you know, obviously

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Speaker 3: we would have to force him to move. And that's

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Speaker 3: how weaking our training from to fight in the streets.

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Speaker 3: Drop over a hat.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Otherwise, the normal lay person, you tell me right now

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Speaker 3: to fight or hit somebody, you can't if you never

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Speaker 3: hit a person. It's a little threshold that you don't

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Speaker 3: know how to pass unless you did it already. To

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Speaker 3: be violent or another human being is something else, you.

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Speaker 4: Know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: It's not something i'm gonna say I'm proud of, but

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Speaker 3: it's something that was conditioned, conditioned for us to be

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Speaker 3: just like soldiers.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty three, the body of Michael Chen, also

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Speaker 2: known as the Scientist, was found inside an office belonging

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Speaker 2: to the hip, saying that community Association on Pell Street

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Speaker 2: he had been shot to death. His murder was never solved,

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Speaker 2: and the man who took over the gang after him

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Speaker 2: would be a very different sort of leader.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back.

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Speaker 2: I'm back with CEB, a former member of the Flying

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Speaker 2: Dragons gang in Manhattan's Chinatown in nineteen eighty three, after

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Speaker 2: spending his early teenage years under the Scientists leadership, CB

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Speaker 2: now eighteen, had to adjust to life under a new leader,

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Speaker 2: Johnny Yang on your head.

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Speaker 3: It was basically it wasn't so strict. It wasn't that

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Speaker 3: many rules that you had to follow. Under Michael there

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Speaker 3: was so much code of conduct. Hm, you have to

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Speaker 3: carry yourself a certain way. You can't do this, can't

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Speaker 3: do that. No, But on the onion is more or

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Speaker 3: less like like we'll make money.

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Speaker 4: But here's the problem.

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Speaker 3: Well, young, all we knew as kids going up was

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Speaker 3: rules and engaging in street violence. So it's only natural.

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Speaker 3: The next thing that fell upon us was this dribbled

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Speaker 3: drugs on a different level. Of course, we had the balls,

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean. We spoke English, so it

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Speaker 3: was a natural choice.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think Johnny like, why was that his approach?

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Speaker 2: Why wasn't he stretched like like the scientist is.

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Speaker 4: Different. He's not as.

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Speaker 3: Controlling, you know what I mean, as controlling as Michael

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Speaker 3: Chen was. So I guess there's something that fell on

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Speaker 3: his lap too. I'm sure there's other people that want

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Speaker 3: to step up for that position, but then there will

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Speaker 3: be opposition. Here's one person with enough street creds. You

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Speaker 3: have enough street creds and time in for people to

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Speaker 3: respect you. You know what I mean, so for you

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Speaker 3: to take that role, then people will fall in line, right.

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Speaker 2: And out of everyone we've talked to you on this series,

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Speaker 2: I think you probably know Onion the best. Like, how

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Speaker 2: would you describe what he was like?

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Speaker 4: What's he like? Person?

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Speaker 3: You need to understand something in the streets. We all

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Speaker 3: have a persona. Nobody breaks out a character, okay, and

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Speaker 3: nobody really gets to know each other.

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Speaker 1: That well, that's interesting.

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Speaker 4: And I guess my nicknames Okay, they're not just for show.

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Speaker 4: There's a purpose to it.

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Speaker 3: I know my Elderns for like freaking years and I

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Speaker 3: don't know his real name.

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Speaker 4: There's a reason for that.

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Speaker 3: If I don't know your name, I can never be

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Speaker 3: informing on you. There's a purpose to it, right, So

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Speaker 3: that's why everybody got these colorful nicknames, right. That was

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Speaker 3: given sometimes because based on your personality or whatever to be,

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Speaker 3: you will give a nickname and it sticks to you

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Speaker 3: and that's what you'll refer to. Everything is on a

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Speaker 3: need to know basis, and we don't know where each

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Speaker 3: other lives.

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Speaker 1: But what was his persona? Just that he was like

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Speaker 1: a business.

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Speaker 3: Guy, is much much more business like than Michael. It

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Speaker 3: wasn't it didn't put up the airs as.

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Speaker 4: Much like that was more casual.

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Speaker 3: You could catch them just sneakers and jeans and a

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Speaker 3: T shirt, very unassuming.

250
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Speaker 2: It's so funny because if you read like the newspapers,

251
00:13:17,771 --> 00:13:18,290
Speaker 2: they're all.

252
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Speaker 1: Like Johnny who was always wearing expensive suits.

253
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Speaker 4: Like not very unassuming. Yeah, you see him walk on

254
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Speaker 4: the street. What's character.

255
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Speaker 3: He is more interested in making money doing business as

256
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Speaker 3: opposed to trying to control territory, get into war and

257
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Speaker 3: all that stuff. All that stuff was just pass for us.

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Speaker 3: That plus a lot of us became what's the word

259
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Speaker 3: I look for. It's almost a little bit like post

260
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Speaker 3: traumatic syndrome. By the time Onion took over, a lot

261
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Speaker 3: of us been through many years of ultra violence.

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Speaker 1: Johnny came, you guys all had some PTSD. You were like,

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Speaker 1: let's make them everybody.

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Speaker 3: A lot of us, A lot of us they didn't

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Speaker 3: want to engage in the violence anymore. And also we're

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Speaker 3: growing up. By the time Johnny came in, we were

267
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Speaker 3: now in our late teens eighteen nineteen, so we realized

268
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Speaker 3: one thing, ship we need money.

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Speaker 1: Right, how to make the money in the drugs?

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Speaker 2: But were you aware of the risks of like this

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Speaker 2: was during the War on drugs. There's the mandatory minimums, Like,

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Speaker 2: were you considering were you thinking about that?

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Speaker 4: Of course not?

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Speaker 5: You were going to say, of course we were thinking

275
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Speaker 5: about th think about the mindset where gangsters real full

276
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Speaker 5: time not weekend warriors gain that's the life we leave

277
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Speaker 5: lived by this sor died by this type of thing.

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Speaker 3: So it's part of it's all part of the experience.

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Speaker 3: If you're going to be scared about that stuff, you

280
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Speaker 3: can't be a gangster.

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Speaker 4: Right, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Were you thinking about the risks you were putting on

283
00:14:50,611 --> 00:14:51,091
Speaker 1: other people?

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Speaker 2: Like when you're asking the woman and the madrong parlors

285
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Speaker 2: to like accept those packages of heroin?

286
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Speaker 1: What could happen to them?

287
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Speaker 4: No, like the.

288
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Speaker 3: Moms Nope, nope, Because why here here's the thing. Nobody's

289
00:15:02,811 --> 00:15:07,811
Speaker 3: forced to do anything. Really, whoever volunteers I mean terms

290
00:15:07,851 --> 00:15:10,651
Speaker 3: of trade, would receive BA just they did it for money,

291
00:15:12,171 --> 00:15:15,091
Speaker 3: all right, Maybe maybe you have to pick certain people

292
00:15:15,090 --> 00:15:17,091
Speaker 3: that was down on their luck or whatever, but still

293
00:15:18,411 --> 00:15:21,971
Speaker 3: it was through their own consent. I mean, honest, I

294
00:15:22,011 --> 00:15:25,210
Speaker 3: myself received the package before. That's my first thing.

295
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Speaker 1: That's how you started.

296
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Speaker 3: Yet in that drug trade thing, I was paid twenty

297
00:15:31,491 --> 00:15:32,251
Speaker 3: thousand dollars.

298
00:15:32,811 --> 00:15:33,490
Speaker 4: That's a lot of.

299
00:15:33,451 --> 00:15:35,571
Speaker 1: Money, yeah, especially in nineteen eighties.

300
00:15:35,731 --> 00:15:38,571
Speaker 3: Yes, but it was a due or die job, meaning

301
00:15:38,651 --> 00:15:40,891
Speaker 3: all you have to do was sit there and wait

302
00:15:40,891 --> 00:15:44,010
Speaker 3: for the package to come. If the package passion comes in,

303
00:15:44,251 --> 00:15:44,771
Speaker 3: you get it.

304
00:15:44,771 --> 00:15:45,251
Speaker 4: It's clean.

305
00:15:45,531 --> 00:15:48,451
Speaker 3: But it was intercepted. It was a sting operation. You're

306
00:15:48,491 --> 00:15:50,211
Speaker 3: done right, you know what I mean. So it was

307
00:15:50,210 --> 00:15:52,011
Speaker 3: a due or die thing. I did it once only

308
00:15:52,051 --> 00:15:54,451
Speaker 3: because I knew it was due or die and nevertheand

309
00:15:54,451 --> 00:15:59,331
Speaker 3: that I started to move up the chain of distribution

310
00:15:59,811 --> 00:16:02,491
Speaker 3: instead of just being the meal of accepting, which is

311
00:16:02,491 --> 00:16:06,291
Speaker 3: really started to find customers to distribute the product itself.

312
00:16:07,131 --> 00:16:07,931
Speaker 1: How easy was.

313
00:16:07,931 --> 00:16:10,691
Speaker 2: It to bring the drugs into the country, like to

314
00:16:10,691 --> 00:16:12,491
Speaker 2: get the connections in Hong Kong, and.

315
00:16:12,691 --> 00:16:14,610
Speaker 4: Back then it was pretty easy. It said.

316
00:16:14,651 --> 00:16:18,571
Speaker 3: Technology was different, you know back then to send the

317
00:16:18,611 --> 00:16:22,490
Speaker 3: package I we see was just wrapped around with toys

318
00:16:23,371 --> 00:16:26,811
Speaker 3: in the middle. Part of it was the actual product yourself.

319
00:16:27,251 --> 00:16:30,211
Speaker 3: Because a seven hundred grand brick is like a size

320
00:16:30,210 --> 00:16:35,611
Speaker 3: of like a like a dictionary, like a thick dictionary.

321
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Speaker 4: Big thick.

322
00:16:36,491 --> 00:16:38,171
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's quite big.

323
00:16:38,291 --> 00:16:42,131
Speaker 3: Yeah, ten of them put together, Valo like a million dollars.

324
00:16:42,131 --> 00:16:44,971
Speaker 3: It's about only this bay. It brings me to a store.

325
00:16:44,970 --> 00:16:47,771
Speaker 3: When I was in China one time, right, somebody sharing me,

326
00:16:47,771 --> 00:16:51,171
Speaker 3: and how to conceal these packages was to smear the

327
00:16:51,330 --> 00:16:56,491
Speaker 3: inside of it with tiger shit figer feces. Yeah, I said,

328
00:16:56,531 --> 00:16:59,931
Speaker 3: what you know why? This is what he said to me.

329
00:16:59,970 --> 00:17:01,891
Speaker 3: I don't know if it worked or not, but he said,

330
00:17:02,210 --> 00:17:05,171
Speaker 3: dogs have an intrinsic natural fear.

331
00:17:06,051 --> 00:17:09,330
Speaker 1: Oh my god, so dog, yes, it's.

332
00:17:09,651 --> 00:17:12,731
Speaker 4: Going to it, they'll move away from it. Back then,

333
00:17:12,771 --> 00:17:14,011
Speaker 4: that the fact, then the legend.

334
00:17:14,291 --> 00:17:16,931
Speaker 3: Back then, the only thing to have with dogs and radar,

335
00:17:17,131 --> 00:17:19,931
Speaker 3: I mean X ray, not like nowadays, to get it

336
00:17:19,931 --> 00:17:21,771
Speaker 3: where they see him. You're figuring Adams, you know what

337
00:17:21,771 --> 00:17:24,771
Speaker 3: I mean. But I remember because I was in China

338
00:17:24,811 --> 00:17:26,251
Speaker 3: and I asked some people. I said, listen, can you

339
00:17:26,251 --> 00:17:27,971
Speaker 3: go do a zoo and find me some tiger?

340
00:17:29,051 --> 00:17:32,051
Speaker 1: Actually did you do it? Uh?

341
00:17:32,291 --> 00:17:32,531
Speaker 4: Yeah?

342
00:17:32,731 --> 00:17:34,531
Speaker 3: Later on, when I started to try to move into

343
00:17:34,571 --> 00:17:38,571
Speaker 3: importation myself, right, I actually found people in China. China,

344
00:17:38,611 --> 00:17:41,090
Speaker 3: you understand, it's the death penalty to mess with drugs.

345
00:17:41,131 --> 00:17:43,611
Speaker 3: Back then, we're still communists, you know me. So we

346
00:17:43,691 --> 00:17:45,051
Speaker 3: took a lot of boards to do it. So I

347
00:17:45,091 --> 00:17:47,051
Speaker 3: had to find people go to zoo. They give me

348
00:17:47,091 --> 00:17:50,051
Speaker 3: some tiger feeces itself.

349
00:17:50,091 --> 00:17:50,291
Speaker 4: Yeah.

350
00:17:50,411 --> 00:17:52,731
Speaker 1: Did that message make it safely to New York?

351
00:17:52,971 --> 00:17:54,531
Speaker 4: No? Not you to Puerto Rico.

352
00:17:55,411 --> 00:17:58,451
Speaker 3: It wasn't a destination that was on the radar. And

353
00:17:58,491 --> 00:18:01,811
Speaker 3: then I have my under links from Puerto Rico bring

354
00:18:01,811 --> 00:18:04,011
Speaker 3: it back into the States. Yeah, you know what I mean,

355
00:18:04,011 --> 00:18:06,211
Speaker 3: because that was easy coming into the state.

356
00:18:06,851 --> 00:18:12,291
Speaker 2: Did you ever go to the Johnny's State in Pennsylvania.

357
00:18:11,451 --> 00:18:12,330
Speaker 4: The shooting place? Now?

358
00:18:12,371 --> 00:18:15,251
Speaker 1: Yeah, you never went? Oh you know I went to it.

359
00:18:15,411 --> 00:18:15,971
Speaker 4: You went to it?

360
00:18:16,091 --> 00:18:16,291
Speaker 2: Yeah?

361
00:18:16,411 --> 00:18:21,451
Speaker 4: Really? Yeah, when you mean later on, not when he

362
00:18:21,571 --> 00:18:21,931
Speaker 4: was around.

363
00:18:22,291 --> 00:18:23,971
Speaker 1: My good friend Onion had invited me.

364
00:18:24,091 --> 00:18:26,890
Speaker 2: No, I went, like for reporting the podcast, it's now

365
00:18:26,931 --> 00:18:29,731
Speaker 2: a shooting range officially, How can we never made it

366
00:18:29,771 --> 00:18:30,251
Speaker 2: to Johnny?

367
00:18:30,531 --> 00:18:33,971
Speaker 3: Well, under Johnny's regime, I was also doing other stuff,

368
00:18:34,691 --> 00:18:37,051
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. I partner up with other

369
00:18:37,131 --> 00:18:42,491
Speaker 3: members to distribute stuff, some of it his product, not

370
00:18:42,531 --> 00:18:44,971
Speaker 3: necessarily or his products, you know what I mean. So,

371
00:18:45,131 --> 00:18:49,011
Speaker 3: like I said, under Johnny's regime, he being a businessman,

372
00:18:49,571 --> 00:18:52,331
Speaker 3: and while we all still one flag.

373
00:18:53,251 --> 00:18:54,650
Speaker 1: But you're kind of doing a different thing.

374
00:18:54,771 --> 00:18:56,731
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you didn't you didn't get an invite to

375
00:18:56,771 --> 00:18:57,691
Speaker 2: the shooting.

376
00:18:57,931 --> 00:18:59,451
Speaker 4: I mean, no, I'll be honest.

377
00:18:59,491 --> 00:19:05,491
Speaker 3: You to share a story, right, Uh, Johnny was Obviously

378
00:19:06,131 --> 00:19:08,611
Speaker 3: there's certain things that need to be done, like sometimes

379
00:19:08,811 --> 00:19:11,411
Speaker 3: people need to bring money back to Hong Kong, right,

380
00:19:11,811 --> 00:19:13,731
Speaker 3: and you would get paid an X amount of money,

381
00:19:14,211 --> 00:19:15,891
Speaker 3: strap money on your body.

382
00:19:15,611 --> 00:19:16,411
Speaker 4: To bring it back. Way.

383
00:19:17,251 --> 00:19:20,731
Speaker 3: I turned down that offer, I see, because I said

384
00:19:20,731 --> 00:19:21,451
Speaker 3: to myself this.

385
00:19:22,211 --> 00:19:22,851
Speaker 4: I still remember.

386
00:19:23,731 --> 00:19:25,771
Speaker 3: I said, when I go back, I'm gonna go back

387
00:19:25,771 --> 00:19:28,130
Speaker 3: on my own court, you know what I mean. I'm

388
00:19:28,131 --> 00:19:31,331
Speaker 3: gonna go back, not as a worker, but under my

389
00:19:31,451 --> 00:19:34,731
Speaker 3: own choice. And I did later on, Well, I call

390
00:19:34,771 --> 00:19:38,291
Speaker 3: it court ambition, call it what you like, you know

391
00:19:38,291 --> 00:19:40,171
Speaker 3: what I mean. I'm going back as my own man.

392
00:19:40,211 --> 00:19:44,091
Speaker 1: He didn't want to go back smuggling money for another.

393
00:19:43,771 --> 00:19:46,371
Speaker 4: Guy exactly, something like that exactly.

394
00:19:49,691 --> 00:19:52,211
Speaker 2: But the law would soon catch up with CB and

395
00:19:52,331 --> 00:20:08,411
Speaker 2: with the Flying Dragons. That's after the break in nineteen

396
00:20:08,491 --> 00:20:10,891
Speaker 2: ninety one, see, he was arrested for playing a role

397
00:20:10,891 --> 00:20:14,771
Speaker 2: in a drug conspiracy, one that didn't involve Johnny. He

398
00:20:14,931 --> 00:20:18,331
Speaker 2: was in the mcc that jail on your Chinatown awaiting

399
00:20:18,331 --> 00:20:22,571
Speaker 2: his trial, and then he saw a familiar face, someone

400
00:20:22,651 --> 00:20:25,451
Speaker 2: who he hadn't seen for a while one.

401
00:20:25,371 --> 00:20:28,011
Speaker 3: Day I woke up, I came out of my tier,

402
00:20:28,211 --> 00:20:30,850
Speaker 3: my room, and I saw the skinny guy standing in

403
00:20:30,851 --> 00:20:33,731
Speaker 3: front of the common area. Now in MCC, I was

404
00:20:33,731 --> 00:20:34,651
Speaker 3: always established.

405
00:20:35,491 --> 00:20:37,331
Speaker 4: I was like, let's just sound. I was comfortable a

406
00:20:37,411 --> 00:20:37,651
Speaker 4: right there.

407
00:20:37,691 --> 00:20:39,851
Speaker 3: I had my whole surroundings everything, So I was, holy shit,

408
00:20:39,851 --> 00:20:42,891
Speaker 3: who's that union. Probably at that time was just Extra

409
00:20:42,931 --> 00:20:45,371
Speaker 3: died over here. Yeah, it was just Extra died and

410
00:20:45,411 --> 00:20:47,971
Speaker 3: he landed here. I saw him as holy shit onion.

411
00:20:48,091 --> 00:20:50,251
Speaker 3: But Lucky ran into me because I said, okay, you're

412
00:20:50,291 --> 00:20:52,971
Speaker 3: my new roommate. At that time, I had cloud in pash,

413
00:20:53,251 --> 00:20:54,931
Speaker 3: so I told the CELA, moved my guy out.

414
00:20:55,011 --> 00:20:56,131
Speaker 4: He's moving into my room.

415
00:20:56,531 --> 00:20:58,851
Speaker 3: But that only lasted for a few days because I'm

416
00:20:58,851 --> 00:21:01,811
Speaker 3: sure the prosecutor found out had split this up right away.

417
00:21:02,131 --> 00:21:04,291
Speaker 1: Yeah that makes sense. Yeah, was he a good roommate.

418
00:21:04,931 --> 00:21:07,411
Speaker 3: I mean he's my elder. I mean, I mean this

419
00:21:07,891 --> 00:21:09,651
Speaker 3: thing that is good and not good, you know what

420
00:21:09,691 --> 00:21:11,691
Speaker 3: I mean. I still respect the fact he's my elder.

421
00:21:11,851 --> 00:21:13,531
Speaker 3: So I did the best I can to hook him up,

422
00:21:13,571 --> 00:21:16,691
Speaker 3: make sure everything is okay. Because in prison, right especially

423
00:21:16,691 --> 00:21:19,211
Speaker 3: the attention center, the best spot is if you have

424
00:21:19,251 --> 00:21:23,411
Speaker 3: a job in the kitchen passing out of food because

425
00:21:23,571 --> 00:21:26,691
Speaker 3: inside there's not much amenities. You know, eating is.

426
00:21:26,691 --> 00:21:27,491
Speaker 4: One of them.

427
00:21:27,691 --> 00:21:31,131
Speaker 3: So when you have the spot as the orderlies to

428
00:21:31,291 --> 00:21:33,611
Speaker 3: distribute food, then you hold everything.

429
00:21:34,131 --> 00:21:39,171
Speaker 4: So I get a job in the kitchen to distribute food.

430
00:21:39,211 --> 00:21:42,090
Speaker 4: But those are positions of Cloud in prison.

431
00:21:42,251 --> 00:21:46,731
Speaker 2: So you hooked him up, yes, And what impact did

432
00:21:46,731 --> 00:21:48,611
Speaker 2: his conviction have on on the gang?

433
00:21:49,691 --> 00:21:52,971
Speaker 3: There's a void, you know why, because all the leadership

434
00:21:53,091 --> 00:21:57,971
Speaker 3: was inside. Once you have upper management and even middle

435
00:21:58,011 --> 00:22:01,411
Speaker 3: management gone, the rest just falls apart.

436
00:22:01,731 --> 00:22:05,731
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's just like any organization legit or imit. And

437
00:22:05,771 --> 00:22:07,850
Speaker 4: the FETs knew that too. The best know what they do.

438
00:22:08,531 --> 00:22:10,691
Speaker 2: I guess I was wondering, looking back, do you regret

439
00:22:10,731 --> 00:22:14,011
Speaker 2: bringing dregs into the country and your time being in

440
00:22:14,091 --> 00:22:17,651
Speaker 2: a gang in Chinatown and extorting shopkeepers.

441
00:22:17,691 --> 00:22:19,851
Speaker 3: But here's the thing, though, when you like the way

442
00:22:19,891 --> 00:22:24,051
Speaker 3: we so called extort shopkeepers, it's not like we go

443
00:22:24,091 --> 00:22:28,171
Speaker 3: in there flip their chair. No, because all these they're

444
00:22:28,211 --> 00:22:32,691
Speaker 3: all members of the association. Everybody over there is a

445
00:22:32,691 --> 00:22:35,931
Speaker 3: member of the Online Association. Everybody this size a member

446
00:22:35,971 --> 00:22:38,251
Speaker 3: of the hips In Association. So they pay their adues

447
00:22:38,251 --> 00:22:42,331
Speaker 3: to the Business Association. Anyway, Now, we when we go

448
00:22:42,411 --> 00:22:45,851
Speaker 3: approach these stores, this is the line we tell them.

449
00:22:46,491 --> 00:22:49,850
Speaker 3: Can you help support the young the young brothers in

450
00:22:49,891 --> 00:22:52,451
Speaker 3: the street. Sometime these restaurants, they say, sometime we need

451
00:22:52,451 --> 00:22:56,731
Speaker 3: a place to eat, right, and in return, we will

452
00:22:56,771 --> 00:22:57,251
Speaker 3: protect you.

453
00:22:57,411 --> 00:22:59,571
Speaker 4: For real, we will protect you.

454
00:22:59,571 --> 00:23:02,211
Speaker 3: You have a problem, because we're going to show up

455
00:23:03,051 --> 00:23:04,491
Speaker 3: and we do stand by that.

456
00:23:04,771 --> 00:23:06,691
Speaker 1: So you're more like mandatory bodyguards.

457
00:23:06,771 --> 00:23:09,531
Speaker 4: Yes, that's the best way they put it. It's I'm

458
00:23:09,571 --> 00:23:10,651
Speaker 4: the Tory security guard.

459
00:23:10,931 --> 00:23:13,651
Speaker 3: You have to hire this security firm, which we have

460
00:23:13,731 --> 00:23:15,971
Speaker 3: the security guards with this whole neighborhood.

461
00:23:17,131 --> 00:23:20,291
Speaker 2: But like I was reading testimony from people, because you know,

462
00:23:20,331 --> 00:23:22,971
Speaker 2: there was there were these congressional hearings in Washington and

463
00:23:23,051 --> 00:23:25,971
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty two, and there were a couple of people

464
00:23:25,971 --> 00:23:29,811
Speaker 2: from Chinatown, like small business owners, and they testified at

465
00:23:29,851 --> 00:23:33,011
Speaker 2: this congressional hearing about the gangs. And one of them said,

466
00:23:33,331 --> 00:23:35,731
Speaker 2: I'm a manager at a restaurant located at the heart

467
00:23:35,731 --> 00:23:38,411
Speaker 2: of Chinatown, New York City. Because my business location is

468
00:23:38,451 --> 00:23:41,251
Speaker 2: controlled by a gang named the Flying Dragons, I'm constantly

469
00:23:41,251 --> 00:23:44,171
Speaker 2: threatened and intimidated by them. As a manager of a restaurant,

470
00:23:44,171 --> 00:23:46,251
Speaker 2: I have to try and show them a respectful manner,

471
00:23:46,331 --> 00:23:49,171
Speaker 2: otherwise I put myself in danger. And they were there

472
00:23:49,211 --> 00:23:51,451
Speaker 2: asking for, like you know, there to be a crackdown

473
00:23:51,451 --> 00:23:51,931
Speaker 2: on the gangs.

474
00:23:51,971 --> 00:23:57,211
Speaker 3: Basically, well, here's the thing, slow, We're not going to

475
00:23:57,291 --> 00:24:00,571
Speaker 3: go in there and just intimidate you unless you don't

476
00:24:00,611 --> 00:24:03,851
Speaker 3: go with the program. You have to go with the program.

477
00:24:04,251 --> 00:24:07,571
Speaker 3: Every store has to follow the program. Of course, this

478
00:24:08,011 --> 00:24:12,971
Speaker 3: section belongs to and US, so nobody can buck the system.

479
00:24:13,331 --> 00:24:15,850
Speaker 3: Same as over there too on the other side. So

480
00:24:15,931 --> 00:24:20,371
Speaker 3: I'm sure if he was bucking the system, then probably

481
00:24:20,371 --> 00:24:23,091
Speaker 3: somebody had to say something to put him in line.

482
00:24:22,931 --> 00:24:23,651
Speaker 4: Put him in check.

483
00:24:24,171 --> 00:24:27,491
Speaker 3: Usually usually, like I say, they all know what they

484
00:24:27,531 --> 00:24:30,090
Speaker 3: know the deal. That's the way they do business in

485
00:24:30,211 --> 00:24:33,451
Speaker 3: China back then. If you know, being this neighbor around here,

486
00:24:33,571 --> 00:24:37,330
Speaker 3: you had to pay your dues to the work association,

487
00:24:37,491 --> 00:24:39,811
Speaker 3: the business association, and to us.

488
00:24:40,091 --> 00:24:42,411
Speaker 2: So in your perspective, you are just like one tiny

489
00:24:42,411 --> 00:24:44,931
Speaker 2: little part of like a system that was much bigger

490
00:24:45,051 --> 00:24:46,131
Speaker 2: on every single street.

491
00:24:46,291 --> 00:24:48,611
Speaker 4: Yes, that's the way business was done in.

492
00:24:48,611 --> 00:24:51,411
Speaker 1: China, I mean, but now it's not.

493
00:24:51,811 --> 00:24:52,330
Speaker 4: Yes, it's not.

494
00:24:52,411 --> 00:24:55,291
Speaker 3: It's I I'll relate my feelings. When I came back

495
00:24:55,331 --> 00:24:58,411
Speaker 3: out after I was released from prison, right. I never

496
00:24:58,451 --> 00:25:02,531
Speaker 3: felt so safe. I said, New York City is so safe.

497
00:25:03,091 --> 00:25:04,491
Speaker 3: Do you know back then, when I was out here,

498
00:25:04,571 --> 00:25:07,611
Speaker 3: right twenty four to seven, I say, every day I'm strapped.

499
00:25:07,611 --> 00:25:09,171
Speaker 4: I have a gun on me every.

500
00:25:09,051 --> 00:25:11,331
Speaker 3: Day, not because I want to hurt somebody, go I

501
00:25:11,371 --> 00:25:13,371
Speaker 3: don't need to take myself, because that's how New York

502
00:25:13,411 --> 00:25:16,051
Speaker 3: City was. Yeah, But when I came back out in

503
00:25:16,051 --> 00:25:19,331
Speaker 3: two thousand and seven, I said, Wow, you could walk

504
00:25:19,411 --> 00:25:21,330
Speaker 3: anywhere and you feel safe.

505
00:25:21,971 --> 00:25:24,531
Speaker 4: They cleaned every day, and that was a good thing.

506
00:25:25,371 --> 00:25:27,011
Speaker 1: Do you think the gangs will ever come back?

507
00:25:28,491 --> 00:25:31,851
Speaker 3: Not like in that form. Nowadays you have a lot

508
00:25:31,891 --> 00:25:35,371
Speaker 3: of crews five six guys. They don't have a name,

509
00:25:36,091 --> 00:25:40,130
Speaker 3: but they are here to do business, not to make trouble,

510
00:25:40,811 --> 00:25:43,931
Speaker 3: not to take over territory, and not to extort anyone.

511
00:25:44,051 --> 00:25:48,011
Speaker 3: So you still have people that have to conduct illegal businesses.

512
00:25:48,211 --> 00:25:50,011
Speaker 3: That's true of everywhere, you know what I mean. But

513
00:25:50,651 --> 00:25:54,531
Speaker 3: in the terms of an actual crew raising a crime,

514
00:25:55,211 --> 00:25:57,051
Speaker 3: the Feds did away with that already.

515
00:25:57,331 --> 00:25:57,651
Speaker 4: Rico.

516
00:25:57,971 --> 00:26:00,811
Speaker 3: Yeah, nobody wants to do that because right away you

517
00:26:00,891 --> 00:26:02,371
Speaker 3: sell yourself for a recal conviction.

518
00:26:02,651 --> 00:26:05,091
Speaker 1: Do you think that's better this new way of doing crime?

519
00:26:07,291 --> 00:26:08,811
Speaker 4: I'm not gonna say it's better. Well, I know, is

520
00:26:08,811 --> 00:26:10,531
Speaker 4: this Listen, the streets are safer.

521
00:26:10,691 --> 00:26:13,171
Speaker 1: Yeah, what are you doing now?

522
00:26:14,051 --> 00:26:16,291
Speaker 3: I moved to different industries you now, I mean for

523
00:26:16,291 --> 00:26:17,931
Speaker 3: a while I was in the KTV business.

524
00:26:18,291 --> 00:26:21,011
Speaker 4: What's that karaoke? Now I'm in the restaurant industry.

525
00:26:22,211 --> 00:26:25,330
Speaker 2: And what can you say about what Onion is up

526
00:26:25,371 --> 00:26:25,811
Speaker 2: to now?

527
00:26:25,851 --> 00:26:27,371
Speaker 1: If anything, he's.

528
00:26:27,251 --> 00:26:29,090
Speaker 4: A businessman, legitimate businessman.

529
00:26:30,291 --> 00:26:34,011
Speaker 3: I will say, yeah, he's totally legit because I know

530
00:26:34,091 --> 00:26:37,771
Speaker 3: because he works his ass off. Uh huh, you know

531
00:26:37,891 --> 00:26:39,811
Speaker 3: me in the industry he's in, you know what I mean?

532
00:26:40,051 --> 00:26:42,571
Speaker 3: Very rough, Yes, it's very rough industry he is in.

533
00:26:43,051 --> 00:26:44,531
Speaker 4: And uh, you know what I mean, he has his

534
00:26:44,651 --> 00:26:45,411
Speaker 4: ups and downs.

535
00:26:45,571 --> 00:26:47,411
Speaker 1: Can you say what the industry is there now?

536
00:26:48,811 --> 00:26:49,811
Speaker 4: Seafood distribution?

537
00:26:50,611 --> 00:26:51,051
Speaker 3: What do you.

538
00:26:51,451 --> 00:26:53,931
Speaker 2: People learn from the story of like when the gangs

539
00:26:54,011 --> 00:26:56,731
Speaker 2: ran in Chinatown in the nineteen eighties and then stopped existing.

540
00:26:56,771 --> 00:26:57,331
Speaker 1: What's the taking?

541
00:26:57,411 --> 00:26:57,451
Speaker 4: No?

542
00:26:57,851 --> 00:27:03,531
Speaker 3: I think the Italians has always been romanticized access stretcher

543
00:27:04,291 --> 00:27:06,811
Speaker 3: in the movies and stuff, right, but really, little do

544
00:27:06,891 --> 00:27:09,771
Speaker 3: they know that the Chinese were doing their own thing too.

545
00:27:10,251 --> 00:27:13,171
Speaker 3: It's just that we're much more secretive. We didn't want

546
00:27:13,171 --> 00:27:17,451
Speaker 3: that much attention, so it's also it's a part of history.

547
00:27:17,931 --> 00:27:21,211
Speaker 3: We're just clarifying history and this part of what it

548
00:27:21,331 --> 00:27:22,891
Speaker 3: was Nowwach.

549
00:27:22,891 --> 00:27:25,251
Speaker 4: Everything is clean. It's great, you know.

550
00:27:25,731 --> 00:27:28,171
Speaker 3: So at least I'm around to talk about it, you know,

551
00:27:28,491 --> 00:27:29,411
Speaker 3: so that's a good thing.

552
00:27:29,971 --> 00:27:32,771
Speaker 1: Yes, well, thank you. Should I call you Cowboy or.

553
00:27:32,811 --> 00:27:36,371
Speaker 3: CV nowadays said by coming CB, I shorten it too

554
00:27:36,451 --> 00:27:37,651
Speaker 3: much baggage.

555
00:27:37,211 --> 00:27:37,971
Speaker 4: With the cowboy.

556
00:27:38,051 --> 00:27:40,370
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much, CV, thank you coming on

557
00:27:40,371 --> 00:27:40,691
Speaker 1: the show.

558
00:27:40,771 --> 00:27:43,091
Speaker 4: Thank you very much. It's thank you.

559
00:27:48,571 --> 00:27:55,251
Speaker 2: CB is a former member of the Flying Dragons. This

560
00:27:55,331 --> 00:27:58,571
Speaker 2: episode of The China Hunstan was produced by Sonia Gurwitt

561
00:27:58,811 --> 00:28:03,371
Speaker 2: and edited by Julia Barton. It was engineered by Sarah Bruguer.

562
00:28:04,211 --> 00:28:07,731
Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Our music was composed

563
00:28:07,731 --> 00:28:11,571
Speaker 2: by John Sung, with additional music by Jake Gorski. Special

564
00:28:11,611 --> 00:28:15,051
Speaker 2: thanks to Mike Moy of Chinatown Gang Stories for connecting

565
00:28:15,091 --> 00:28:18,851
Speaker 2: me to CB. The Chinatown Staning is a production of

566
00:28:18,891 --> 00:28:22,731
Speaker 2: Pushkin Industries. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the

567
00:28:22,771 --> 00:28:27,130
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

568
00:28:27,771 --> 00:28:28,771
Speaker 1: I'm Lydia Gene Copp