Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.
Speaker 1: My guest today is the one and only Ricky Lee Jones.
Speaker 1: Ricky Lee, good to have you on the program. I'm
Speaker 1: glad to be here at last. Okay, what the audience
Speaker 1: doesn't realize is we did an exhaustive podcast back in
Speaker 1: the fall, and we had an audio problem. We covered
Speaker 1: so much territory. I don't know if we could ever
Speaker 1: cover that again, but we're gonna give it another shot. So,
Speaker 1: Ricky Lee, you've been out on the road. What has
Speaker 1: that experience been like in the COVID era. Well, I've
Speaker 1: done a few dates, but let's see. We did some
Speaker 1: in September, and then I guess did Florida. So playing
Speaker 1: Florida isn't like the rest of the country. And the
Speaker 1: first night was people were masked and it was a show.
Speaker 1: The second night's odd, very few people had masks on.
Speaker 1: I guess the governor's anti mandate mandate came into effect um.
Speaker 1: But for me to be honest one time on stage,
Speaker 1: I don't even remember there's COVID. I don't remember anything.
Speaker 1: I'm just up there playing as I always did. So
Speaker 1: it's it's there are less states harder to do. But
Speaker 1: for me it's the same. Okay, any fear of getting
Speaker 1: COVID yourself, well a little bit, um, but not enough
Speaker 1: to keep me from going out there and sharing the
Speaker 1: air with people. And at this point in time, what
Speaker 1: is the motivation? To what degree is the motivation go
Speaker 1: on the road? Money? To what degree is the experience?
Speaker 1: To what degree is hey, I just gotta have to
Speaker 1: do something else in my life than there are other
Speaker 1: people who say you can't get that hit anywhere else
Speaker 1: in life being on stage. So what's motivating you at
Speaker 1: this point to go on the road? Money? Money, money, money,
Speaker 1: I don't have. Uh, you know, I think if I
Speaker 1: were rich, would I would I want to go on tour.
Speaker 1: I bet you I would. But I can't have that
Speaker 1: perspective because I have to go on to have to
Speaker 1: That's how I make my check. So that gets tiring
Speaker 1: to um. But like anybody else who has to go
Speaker 1: to work, UM, you know, I don't always see um
Speaker 1: that I'd like to do it. I love performing for people,
Speaker 1: but it's exhausting, it's exhausting emotionally. Um. Sometimes I'm done,
Speaker 1: you know, and I'd like to wait for the next
Speaker 1: group of songs to come or my life to turn
Speaker 1: the dial and then come on stage again. But I
Speaker 1: can't keep keep working. So um, that being said, there
Speaker 1: is I don't like that praiser, but there is something
Speaker 1: happening this year. There is something happening wonderful for me.
Speaker 1: People are recognizing me. I don't feel like I've changed,
Speaker 1: particularly getting older, and I could add that you know
Speaker 1: a woman in pop or rock music getting older, being
Speaker 1: one of the survivors making it to old age. And
Speaker 1: my job has is bringing to me um a confidence
Speaker 1: because I just don't care anymore. And I don't think
Speaker 1: it's an arrogance. I think it's just finally, if you
Speaker 1: like it, come, I love, I love, I want to
Speaker 1: give love. If you don't, that's all right to go
Speaker 1: where you like it. And I'm not trying to win,
Speaker 1: which was a lifelong pursuit. Believe me that one guy
Speaker 1: will never like what I do, so that's been shed
Speaker 1: from me. And when I'm on stage, I'm everybody, I
Speaker 1: imagine UM knows exactly what they're doing. So the thing
Speaker 1: that everything is not at stake when I'm up there,
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if my socks match. All that matters
Speaker 1: is that I'm singing the best I can sing. Um
Speaker 1: that's come to me now, And I think that's translating
Speaker 1: in that way that only comes to older people, where
Speaker 1: people go, wow, that she's really good. She's really good.
Speaker 1: Now to what degree does that free you creatively? You
Speaker 1: know things you say, well, maybe the audience, whether it
Speaker 1: be on recordings or alive. Me have a hard time
Speaker 1: getting to this for this time saying I'm going to
Speaker 1: test the limits. I'm not living forever. Who gives a
Speaker 1: ship that's a great question. I did some testing of
Speaker 1: limits back when I did Ghost Ahead and and and
Speaker 1: challenged people's personal reception of me, both both in the
Speaker 1: recording and on tour. That's not what I don't need
Speaker 1: to do that anymore, but I recognize that there is
Speaker 1: some conforming going on. You know, it's such a complicated thing,
Speaker 1: the way we interact with each other. So you know,
Speaker 1: you go, I love it when you brush your hair
Speaker 1: down and wear that red shirt. I like my red shirt.
Speaker 1: But now that I know you want me to brush
Speaker 1: my hair down with the red shirt, I don't know
Speaker 1: if I like it anymore. So all those ways we
Speaker 1: um doubt what we do naturally, So when I'm on stage,
Speaker 1: I naturally sing jazz, or I naturally like to play
Speaker 1: a happy song, or I naturally very depressed and playset song.
Speaker 1: But when I know you're expecting that, then I start
Speaker 1: to feel like I'm, you know, at work and calling
Speaker 1: it lines. So then I go, I have so many ideas.
Speaker 1: I'd like to do a night of improvisation and um,
Speaker 1: and I will do that. But but the question is,
Speaker 1: am I just doing it because I want you to
Speaker 1: like me no matter what I do. I want you
Speaker 1: to prove that you like me. I like that superhero
Speaker 1: on the Boys, want you like me, not just my
Speaker 1: music And all those trips I went to I went
Speaker 1: through in the thirties and forties, and I just I
Speaker 1: don't really have them now. When I'm ready, maybe I'll
Speaker 1: take off my clothes and wear fishnet body suit and
Speaker 1: and improvise the entire night if I feel like that's
Speaker 1: gonna take us where we want to go. Because it's
Speaker 1: about the audience as much as me. It just is.
Speaker 1: It's not about you watching me derived pleasure. It's about
Speaker 1: us and how we experience the songs together. When I'm
Speaker 1: singing and I think that you know, there have been
Speaker 1: times in my life where I thought, this is all
Speaker 1: about me, it's not about you. I don't care if
Speaker 1: you like it. Um, I'm not supposed to care if
Speaker 1: you like it, So so fuck you, guys. It's not
Speaker 1: already to say that, and um, yeah, but I know
Speaker 1: that that's not the truth. It never was the truth.
Speaker 1: The truth is if you travel all the way from
Speaker 1: your home and you buy a ticket and all the
Speaker 1: things you have to do to get there, and all
Speaker 1: the things I have to do to get there, we've
Speaker 1: come to be together. And that's what this moment is.
Speaker 1: It's me singing and and that spirit going through it.
Speaker 1: And so, um, I feel like that's your job. I
Speaker 1: do very well and I have confidence now in in
Speaker 1: what I do. And uh, I don't know why, but
Speaker 1: I spent a lifetime without much confidence. Okay, so the
Speaker 1: people at the show, do you? I mean? I have
Speaker 1: this very distinct memory of going to see Brian Adams
Speaker 1: and happened to be during the daytime where it's harder
Speaker 1: to get the audience, and he literally took the set list,
Speaker 1: looked at the band, ripped it in half, and then
Speaker 1: worked his way into the minds of the audience and
Speaker 1: bought everybody together. If people show up at your show,
Speaker 1: do you feel an obligation at this late date, at
Speaker 1: this age to get that person who's sort of you know,
Speaker 1: looking at their phone or drifting. Do you sit up
Speaker 1: and saying saying, I'm gonna convince that person. First of all,
Speaker 1: nobody looks at their phone when I'm on stage. Everybody
Speaker 1: is with me, and if they're not, they're probably somewhere
Speaker 1: where I can't see them. Um. You know, I never
Speaker 1: have a set list. It's always about what we feel today.
Speaker 1: Sometimes this song follows this song really well, so you
Speaker 1: might trying to do a couple back to back, but
Speaker 1: I'm always listening and feeling how do I feel tonight?
Speaker 1: And where do they want to go? Are they kind
Speaker 1: of sadder? All right, then we'll go that way. So um,
Speaker 1: So that's not a big deal to me. It requires
Speaker 1: very special people in the band. They not only have
Speaker 1: to be great players, but they have to not be
Speaker 1: intimidated easily, because that thing of not knowing what you're
Speaker 1: gonna play next can be can make people angry. I've
Speaker 1: had musics to get angry about that. So you gotta
Speaker 1: love play and you gotta be a great player, so
Speaker 1: that whatever I call you, you're gonna be able to
Speaker 1: do it, and then we have a good time because otherwise,
Speaker 1: in a short time they're playing wrote. They hate me
Speaker 1: because they're playing wrote, but not as much as they
Speaker 1: hate me, if I call it a different sense of challenge.
Speaker 1: But the main thing I don't I don't know if
Speaker 1: you've seen me and how many times you've seen me,
Speaker 1: but my performances are usually very powerful, um very powerful.
Speaker 1: I like to say that, like church or anything. But
Speaker 1: people get caught up. There's a lot of crying, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of laughing. We are feeling and experiencing things
Speaker 1: that that's inexplicable. It's more than the voice, that's more
Speaker 1: than the story. All the lifetime people have invested in
Speaker 1: the in the music is taking place there. So it's
Speaker 1: a powerful thing. It is not you know, it's not playing,
Speaker 1: it's not playing the list. But I get why you
Speaker 1: would do something extraordinary in the middle of the day
Speaker 1: to wake people up, you know, to the fact that
Speaker 1: they're in a show whatever time. I get why you did.
Speaker 1: And you know, I haven't crowd served yet, so I
Speaker 1: might have jumped out in the audience. Carry me, carry
Speaker 1: me and uh, and that could have gone wrong. But
Speaker 1: testing them that way, I understand why you go. You know,
Speaker 1: if I play this show to a dead audience, to
Speaker 1: people who are distracted and uninterested, it's gonna harm me.
Speaker 1: It's gonna make me cynical, it's gonna make it harder
Speaker 1: for me to do the next show. So I'm I'm gonna.
Speaker 1: So the two things you do is you hold your
Speaker 1: breath and and do it, or you go, let's shake
Speaker 1: them up. And sometimes that works. Sometimes you get pressy
Speaker 1: people out there who you know, think you should behave
Speaker 1: just this way. But um, but it's all okay. However
Speaker 1: they whatever they write, however they act, it's it's all
Speaker 1: right as long as I reached that one person. I
Speaker 1: know there's one person out there who came for something powerful,
Speaker 1: some healing, some direction, and and I know it's not
Speaker 1: like I experienced it when they do, but I have
Speaker 1: faith that they're there, and that's why I can get
Speaker 1: some pleasure out of having to go to Florida. I'm
Speaker 1: playing at the Taco Standard. The song writer postables. Okay,
Speaker 1: so you know you have a very analytical perspective. You
Speaker 1: understand what you're doing when you hit it out of
Speaker 1: the park, to use a baseball metaphor, are you frustrated
Speaker 1: that you're not reaching more people? You had that moment
Speaker 1: the end of the seventies early eighties where everybody in
Speaker 1: America was paying attention to you. Do you get frustrated
Speaker 1: that now you're doing great stuff and not as many
Speaker 1: people are aware of it. Yeah, sometimes, Bob, I do.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I feel sorry for myself and uh and and
Speaker 1: I feel a little angry or irked like so, but
Speaker 1: why you know, well, you do only feel upset if
Speaker 1: there was somebody else getting the attention who was not
Speaker 1: really who. You know. It comes down to ego, but
Speaker 1: it also comes under money. So if my ego said
Speaker 1: I am so much better than that guy, why can't
Speaker 1: I at least get the same stage he has to
Speaker 1: get a chance to be heard? Um And a lot
Speaker 1: of that thinking just just you know, I just went
Speaker 1: I think things have a time, and I think that, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, if there's a time where I'll be served
Speaker 1: well by being in front of a larger audience and
Speaker 1: I could do my job taking care of them, then
Speaker 1: I'll be in front of a bigger audience. I think
Speaker 1: I accept the fact that I am. I like to
Speaker 1: just say unique, unusual, um, but I accept the fact
Speaker 1: that I'm not and have never been particularly homogenized. I
Speaker 1: don't want to say normal, but you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: So that's harder to for people, all the people involved,
Speaker 1: and to put that person in front of a large audience.
Speaker 1: But um so the answers. Yes, it's been frustrating sometimes,
Speaker 1: but I feel I really feel like if that's where
Speaker 1: I want to go, I'll aim there and make the
Speaker 1: things around me take me there. Okay, to what degree
Speaker 1: are you a student of the game. Let's start with Okay,
Speaker 1: you're not really caring about reaching everybody. But are you saying, well,
Speaker 1: I was in this town a year ago, and my
Speaker 1: numbers are up or down and I and that affects
Speaker 1: what I'm playing. Oh yeah, I don't know anything about
Speaker 1: that stuff. The unfortunate thing is I don't think my
Speaker 1: manager did either. So now I think I have a
Speaker 1: crew around me. It's it is very sophisticated and so
Speaker 1: whatever those numbers are, hopefully, um we'll be building it.
Speaker 1: You know. Let me tell you that when I'd sell
Speaker 1: out a place right and I didn't want to play
Speaker 1: the really big places I kept it. I said, we're
Speaker 1: not gonna ever go bigger than five thousands. We're gonna
Speaker 1: try to keep this intimate thing right. And I had
Speaker 1: I had, um, you know, constructed the thing as I
Speaker 1: wanted it to be. And I had these rules, which
Speaker 1: was to never go out and look at the audience
Speaker 1: while they're pibly it. But one day at a winery,
Speaker 1: I went out and watched them coming in, and I
Speaker 1: said to myself, Wow, I can't relate to any of
Speaker 1: those people, right, And how can I say, you know,
Speaker 1: you don't know what their dressed, who they are. But
Speaker 1: I just went, oh, my audience, it's not my peer group.
Speaker 1: And realize that when you have a large audience, probably
Speaker 1: seventy percent of them are coming for a very different
Speaker 1: reason than that wonderful core group who comes to you know,
Speaker 1: like like vampires, we get really high off each other
Speaker 1: the blood and intoxicated. The rest of those people come
Speaker 1: to watch, and they're good numbers and they fill the seats,
Speaker 1: but they don't give you what you come for. And
Speaker 1: and I suspect, you know, I'm I I think quite
Speaker 1: horribly that something in my mind when I don't want
Speaker 1: them to come anymore, I only want the true religion,
Speaker 1: the people who need to be there, the people who
Speaker 1: you know are so invested in the music, not the
Speaker 1: people who came because their cousin likes joking the love
Speaker 1: or related to the promoter. All those people and um
Speaker 1: and and that's okay. You know, I understand why I
Speaker 1: why I did that, But I think it's so ego based.
Speaker 1: I think I think now everybody's invited, and the more people,
Speaker 1: the more bean Besia will grow, the more people who come,
Speaker 1: the more love and good will, the more I live forever,
Speaker 1: Like every artist wants to live forever. Everybody wants to
Speaker 1: live forever. If you see me play, I'll be in
Speaker 1: your memory and and you pass that. You know these
Speaker 1: are very very personal things. They'll talk about it very much.
Speaker 1: That's the way I'll be with you always, because you'll
Speaker 1: tell the story to your kid or your Granted, I
Speaker 1: saw her at the Da da Da Da Da da da.
Speaker 1: And you know, if you last a hundred years after
Speaker 1: you die, then you've done a good job for the
Speaker 1: legend of Rickingly Jones, whatever that legend is going to
Speaker 1: end up being. But also in a very practical basis,
Speaker 1: I won't be seventy years old and have to work
Speaker 1: in order to pay my mortgage, and that would be
Speaker 1: really great. Okay, let's go back to the money. Uh
Speaker 1: Is it that just you know, living now, a revenue
Speaker 1: from recordings and publishing is not as high or did
Speaker 1: you blow the money and you regret it. I regret
Speaker 1: blowing it, but I had to add sick people in
Speaker 1: my family and had to pay for them. That's how
Speaker 1: I spent them. Um. I was also devastated in that
Speaker 1: horrible crash of two thousand and eight. Um, So I
Speaker 1: didn't I did bad things, and I took for granted
Speaker 1: that I'd always have a little bit of money and
Speaker 1: I lost it. And when I lost it and the
Speaker 1: i r S put a lean on everything I had,
Speaker 1: I could not get back on my feet. And I
Speaker 1: was a rock star. I didn't know anything about anything
Speaker 1: about anything that I did with money, taxes, how to
Speaker 1: pay bills. It was a rough and hard lesson to
Speaker 1: lose everything and find you know, all those nice people
Speaker 1: at the bank don't give a shit about you. You know,
Speaker 1: they're not going to give me a loan or help
Speaker 1: you do that just because you used to make millions
Speaker 1: of dollars buddy, can you spare it? Do? So? All
Speaker 1: those lessons that so many others were learning at the time,
Speaker 1: I also learned. Um. I of course I regret blowing it,
Speaker 1: but I think it's not hoky. I think I've learned
Speaker 1: amazing lessons. You know, I was. I was taken right
Speaker 1: to the top and immediately like a dream come true,
Speaker 1: like an angel took me there and didn't have time
Speaker 1: to learn very many lessons on my way. I've learned
Speaker 1: a lot of lessons now. And um, I didn't have
Speaker 1: any respect for money. I thought it was ghost to
Speaker 1: care about money, and I threw money around but everybody
Speaker 1: dinner for about five years every where I went. Um,
Speaker 1: I have a healthy respect for it now because I
Speaker 1: know that you know, if you don't have anybody, you'll
Speaker 1: meet a lot of kind people along the way, But
Speaker 1: it's much it's much better to have the money to
Speaker 1: pay your own way. UM. So I think if I aim,
Speaker 1: I'll hit the mark. I just have to decide what
Speaker 1: I'm aiming at and not be um guilty about having
Speaker 1: success succeeding. And you know, I also try to not
Speaker 1: be clear because I like a little bit of fuzzy thinking,
Speaker 1: so that other things can take shape than just what
Speaker 1: you you were going to plan. But at this age,
Speaker 1: I think it's not the worst thing to start to
Speaker 1: have clear plans about how it will be, whether it
Speaker 1: will be, how long it will be. So that's that's
Speaker 1: what I'm living by the railroad tract. So that's what
Speaker 1: it's like. Now, Okay, let's stay with the money just
Speaker 1: one more time. Uh, do you still get royalties assuming
Speaker 1: there are people listening to your music from recordings from
Speaker 1: from publishing or did you sell those rights? I sold
Speaker 1: some of the rights. Um, but I do still get
Speaker 1: royalties more than you. You'd be surprised you I do
Speaker 1: okay on those roads. If I didn't have those rotaries,
Speaker 1: I'd be shipped out of Look, and that happened because
Speaker 1: as I was just going getting signed at Warner Brothers
Speaker 1: are in the six month. I wrote about it a
Speaker 1: little in the book. But um, somebody said with it Ivan,
Speaker 1: I don't know, said you have to have your own publishing,
Speaker 1: don't sell your publishing. That's how you'll make all your money.
Speaker 1: And at that time, it's just it's a concept. Right,
Speaker 1: where would that all that money come? Well, that was
Speaker 1: exactly the truth. The publishing. Um, you know, I sold
Speaker 1: it for not very much money. UM to pay up
Speaker 1: that I r S did. Um, but I kept some
Speaker 1: of it. And and so I'm doing I'm okay, okay,
Speaker 1: tell me about that guilt over success. Well, there's so
Speaker 1: many ways that it manifests. But my family, it's not
Speaker 1: that they were ne'er do wells, but they could. None
Speaker 1: of them seem to ever get a break. No, And
Speaker 1: so when I first, you know, walked into the golden
Speaker 1: fields of the success that I had wanted to have,
Speaker 1: I felt really bad that none of them had anything.
Speaker 1: Nor my friends who were also talented musicians, but nobody
Speaker 1: seemed to be interested in in their songs. I tried
Speaker 1: very hard to bring sal Bernardi and his songs get
Speaker 1: Warner Brothers design, and they didn't want anything to do
Speaker 1: with them. When I see really successful people and their
Speaker 1: friends all getting signed, like how they do that? Because
Speaker 1: I get um, But it manifests really terribly. UM. It
Speaker 1: weighs besides self the obvious self destructive things, the subtle
Speaker 1: ways should trip yourself up. Now, maybe I'm just an asshole,
Speaker 1: but I rather think that, you know, sometimes i'd meet
Speaker 1: somebody who might have been an important person to be
Speaker 1: and I would be thirty minutes late to the meeting,
Speaker 1: or I meet somebody else and talk to them, like,
Speaker 1: you know, I remember meeting Um Peter Case and Victoria Williams.
Speaker 1: They were wanted to talk to me about producing a song,
Speaker 1: a sal Bernardi song, to speak of it, think of it.
Speaker 1: And I went into the meeting and I said, well,
Speaker 1: first of all, if we do this song, we have
Speaker 1: to do it this way. And then and I just
Speaker 1: went just like and they were just set to me listen.
Speaker 1: Victoria and I are very close friends, and I said
Speaker 1: to her a couple of years ago, I just I
Speaker 1: want to apologize for that meeting forty years ago. I'm
Speaker 1: so sorry that I I was so nervous and I
Speaker 1: just didn't know how to work with other people. I
Speaker 1: thought I had a vision and I I wasn't cut
Speaker 1: out to be a producer at that time. And she
Speaker 1: she just hugged me, you know. So. But anyway, there
Speaker 1: are a lot of ways you can alienate people and
Speaker 1: make sure that you don't go any further and even
Speaker 1: destroy yourself. There was always that feeling of they're gonna
Speaker 1: find out I'm here. I've read other people excuse me.
Speaker 1: I've seen other people say that about their careers, but
Speaker 1: that is a very real thing. You really feel like
Speaker 1: at any moment, some writers going to say she can't really.
Speaker 1: Of course they did, but she can't really sing and
Speaker 1: she's da and everybody's gonna go, oh, we believe you,
Speaker 1: and we're not even gonna go see your listen. So
Speaker 1: I think that that probably went up until the small
Speaker 1: gap where older age started and I went, that's fine,
Speaker 1: you guys do it everyone. As long as somebody books
Speaker 1: me somewhere and I can play, I'll show you what
Speaker 1: I am. And and you know, if you like, if
Speaker 1: you don't like it, I tell you the truth though
Speaker 1: that you know I said, I think I said when
Speaker 1: I sat down, I didn't care about that one guy anywhere,
Speaker 1: but he's always with me. I think that that one critic.
Speaker 1: I think he comes from the talking Heads camp. He's
Speaker 1: one of those shipsters in he comes from New York City,
Speaker 1: and everything he knows is, you know, there's certainly no
Speaker 1: room for emotion or flawed female. It's male, and it's
Speaker 1: in this place, and it rocks, and it's and if
Speaker 1: it's not that, it's second rate, and and and I'm
Speaker 1: always trying to talk to him and say, there, did
Speaker 1: I change your mind? See? And he's always the critic
Speaker 1: that I that I never win, and I like to
Speaker 1: think that I'm setting him down, but I don't know
Speaker 1: if I'll ever really set them down. Let's go back
Speaker 1: to Peter and Victoria. You apologize for behavior. How did
Speaker 1: you learn to get along with people? And it's one
Speaker 1: thing to get along with people. The other half you
Speaker 1: said was I thought I was right. Do you still
Speaker 1: think you're right? Or are you open to more opinions.
Speaker 1: I think my creative ideas are fantastic and they're unique. Um,
Speaker 1: but what I started doing in the early nineties or
Speaker 1: something was just setting my ideas aside totally and getting
Speaker 1: other people to do their ideas and being a guest
Speaker 1: with them. I think that's the worst thing I can do.
Speaker 1: I think I have a clear vision, and when it
Speaker 1: comes to me, that's what I should do. I mean
Speaker 1: to not spend one more day apologizing to people because
Speaker 1: I have a clear vision and know what to do.
Speaker 1: If you want to work with me, there'll be places
Speaker 1: where I'll ask you to participate. But if I see
Speaker 1: the whole thing and know what it should be, that's
Speaker 1: gonna be. That's your job. You're in the orchestra. Sometimes
Speaker 1: you're in a rock band where you get to play
Speaker 1: the solo o the times you're not. This is my
Speaker 1: stage and this is how I do my work. And
Speaker 1: that took a long time because when people say mean
Speaker 1: things about in the Meka, I mean, say she's a
Speaker 1: bit nobody wants to work with you, they don't like you.
Speaker 1: It hurts the little kid in me. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: trying to make friends, try really hard doing all this music.
Speaker 1: It's been all this money is come and you know,
Speaker 1: so it's not like going into a little room. I'm
Speaker 1: not the univox, you know, trying reaching out to make friends.
Speaker 1: And when my best efforts are met with you know.
Speaker 1: And and one reason is because it's just fun to
Speaker 1: say anything about famous people. And I get that, you know,
Speaker 1: you don't never have to look them in the eye.
Speaker 1: And and but back in the eighties, when I was
Speaker 1: very big and could do anything I wanted, one of
Speaker 1: the things I really wanted was to make friends. And
Speaker 1: I sacrificed my work in order to try try to
Speaker 1: get people like me. I think I did some interesting work,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't my work? Um, So an answer to
Speaker 1: that question, if I recognize somebody's a great anything and
Speaker 1: the ranger, he's a player, he's got something I need,
Speaker 1: then I'll open the door for us to talk to
Speaker 1: one another. But what I don't do anymore is set
Speaker 1: down what I have. Um. That might have been a
Speaker 1: girl lesson. I don't know, but I feel fine. You know.
Speaker 1: I know it's taken a lifetime. I'm sixty seven years old. Um,
Speaker 1: but we get to see kids who are twenty. They're creating, uh,
Speaker 1: such a more eat you know, it's not even like
Speaker 1: it's not an afterthought. It is an equal world. Um.
Speaker 1: But in my generation, it's just simply wasn't. And I
Speaker 1: you can hear the way I talked. I'm emphatic and excited,
Speaker 1: but that's just so full of love. And there are
Speaker 1: some men, not so much women, but some people who
Speaker 1: are just like WHOA, they don't like me and are
Speaker 1: there not comfortable with me and and so working only
Speaker 1: with men and all that sexual tension that's always going
Speaker 1: on that you have to manage if you're a female
Speaker 1: boss while getting them to play and define you as
Speaker 1: a fellow musician. That's how I wanted to be a
Speaker 1: fellow musician and not a girl, and a lot that's
Speaker 1: a lot of psychic energy. You know how much of
Speaker 1: this is just having lived and have experiences these insights
Speaker 1: or to what degree might have been through therapy. Did
Speaker 1: you go to therapy and what has that helped or
Speaker 1: not help? Well? Therapies for private issues probably you know,
Speaker 1: things that happen to do with my family, and maybe
Speaker 1: early on, you know, other issues, But I can't see
Speaker 1: it actually extending into the wider world though it at
Speaker 1: churning must have. So did you see that? I got
Speaker 1: that point. But did you see the therapist? You still
Speaker 1: see a therapist? Oh yeah, I've seen a therapist for
Speaker 1: twenty years phone because we're in different towns. But he's
Speaker 1: it's good, it's a good guy. Okay, let's go back
Speaker 1: something he said earlier. You said, well, you know, if
Speaker 1: you expect me in the red shirt, I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: wear that. I complete that the same way. And it's
Speaker 1: and I think it's the sixties, okay, And everybody sold
Speaker 1: out in the eighties and I didn't sell out. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm even still wearing the clothes from the sixties. But
Speaker 1: to what degree. Were you always that person not necessarily
Speaker 1: needing to put other people down from being behind you,
Speaker 1: but not really a member of the group, outsider thinking
Speaker 1: for yourself. Well, uh, you know, all my life, I've
Speaker 1: been an outsider on the playground. That's that's just simply
Speaker 1: the way that it was. It wasn't my choosing, but
Speaker 1: that's that's who I am here on stage. People like that,
Speaker 1: They like that energy. That's a place where a weirdo
Speaker 1: can find a home because if you're creative and you
Speaker 1: have that unique energy, then people can watch you from
Speaker 1: a distance and enjoy it. If you're sitting next to
Speaker 1: him on the bus, it might make um a little uncomfortable. Um,
Speaker 1: I think you're asking me a bigger question though that
Speaker 1: I'm not actually getting my hands around. Would you ask
Speaker 1: it again? Well, I mean, I think you've hit the
Speaker 1: point of always being an outsider and the tension of
Speaker 1: wanting to be yourself but by the same token, wanting
Speaker 1: to be included. I think we've sort of nailed that.
Speaker 1: Let's let's go back to others. Something else you said
Speaker 1: earlier about being a woman in the business. Yes, you
Speaker 1: want to be taken uh seriously as an equal with
Speaker 1: other people you're playing with. But expand that, what's it
Speaker 1: like being a woman dealing with a wreck? Good company?
Speaker 1: Being on the road? I mean this is we live
Speaker 1: in a different ror now with mobile phones. Everybody's got
Speaker 1: a camera everywhere. But you were on the road. Did
Speaker 1: you live like the men? Did you go out drinking?
Speaker 1: Did you drug? Did you have sex with different people?
Speaker 1: Did you stay home and you know, in your hotel
Speaker 1: room and say no, I want none of that. So UM,
Speaker 1: the answer to that question changes with each new tour
Speaker 1: and reinvention of our growth. You know, Um, when I
Speaker 1: first started out, I was the boss and I wanted
Speaker 1: to but I didn't know that yet, And I always
Speaker 1: wondered why the boys didn't call me to go out
Speaker 1: with them when they went to dinner. And they'd all
Speaker 1: go to have dinner, but I'd be home in the hotel.
Speaker 1: I feel sorry for myself to look and the big
Speaker 1: star and I'm at the loneliest person of all. Um.
Speaker 1: Then the next subsequent tours, I understood, no matter how
Speaker 1: friendly we are when we're on tour, I'm the boss,
Speaker 1: I'm the employer, and very few of them will cross
Speaker 1: the line to um to be friendly. They're just more
Speaker 1: comfortable with each other. This this goes on still somewhat,
Speaker 1: but not as much. Let's pitch gears a second. We spoke,
Speaker 1: as I say, about three or four months back, and
Speaker 1: you were very warm and excited about the fact that
Speaker 1: you had this new romance with a guy in New Orleans.
Speaker 1: Is that still happening? It is my romance. Um, I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna chew this. It's all right to talk about
Speaker 1: it a little bit. You know, he's very private, he
Speaker 1: doesn't want to discussed. I think it's important to protect
Speaker 1: family and friends. This same thing of people you don't
Speaker 1: know knowing what you're doing and caring about it. It's
Speaker 1: overwhelming to people at first. So and then also they
Speaker 1: asked this question later, which you know you might have
Speaker 1: broken up, your heart's devastated and there, and there's not
Speaker 1: something you want to talk about. But people feel they
Speaker 1: have a right to talk to you about it because
Speaker 1: it's part of fame. So I will say yes, at
Speaker 1: this late age, I've met someone. I hope that we
Speaker 1: continue to be to evolve into whatever it is you
Speaker 1: can evolve into it this age. But I think it's
Speaker 1: pretty important to keep it, keep it private. For him,
Speaker 1: but also for me. So what's the key to being
Speaker 1: involved with Rickie Lee Jones? Do you mean on a
Speaker 1: personal level? Yeah, both romantically and as a friend. Boy,
Speaker 1: I think that it seems so much reflected in his eyes,
Speaker 1: like he's comes from a very different social place than me.
Speaker 1: We share music, love of music's I got a business guy,
Speaker 1: a bunch of sports on the weekends. Sometimes, who are you? Um?
Speaker 1: I think it's what it takes to be a friend
Speaker 1: with me, is what it takes to be with anybody
Speaker 1: who's patience and kindness and as long as you resort
Speaker 1: to kindness when you're confused instead of aggression. Sometimes I
Speaker 1: want to challenge. That's the moment I don't challenge and
Speaker 1: I totally surrender. I have a totally different technique now
Speaker 1: than I had when I was a kid, which is
Speaker 1: to do the opposite of what I think, what my
Speaker 1: feelings say, do, to not be so patient to wait.
Speaker 1: In my case, I'm a so insecure emotionally, and I'm
Speaker 1: always watching for the hamered to Paul or whatever it is,
Speaker 1: and and then react to things that might not be
Speaker 1: going on. It might be going on, but they'll pass.
Speaker 1: So I've actually read read in a song called Patients
Speaker 1: and Kindness. That's a really beautiful song, and it's it's
Speaker 1: about getting outside of your own skin, even though people
Speaker 1: might be hurting your feelings, and finding out what's happening
Speaker 1: to them instead. And if we look after the love
Speaker 1: the beloved before us, always, we'll win. As long as
Speaker 1: they're also looking out for the beloved first always, we'll
Speaker 1: both win. Once we start to look after our own interests.
Speaker 1: I'm scared. I think I'm not gonna call you. I'm
Speaker 1: going to play a game, and then then we're fucked.
Speaker 1: But if we think, how is the other feeling does
Speaker 1: he needs space, says he needs me to call him
Speaker 1: and set my And I'm also strengthened by this willpower control.
Speaker 1: I think at my age, this is a you know,
Speaker 1: we're not gonna have children, so you know, we're creating
Speaker 1: roads and trenches and trees and forests and things for
Speaker 1: us to do as we communicate with one another. And
Speaker 1: the main thing, as I always tended, I've always made
Speaker 1: people my world. Um, I'm pretty sure this person just
Speaker 1: won't be able to tolerate that. And my total attention.
Speaker 1: It's a lot of serious attention. So I'm you might say,
Speaker 1: I'm learning to date. I'm learning to put somebody in
Speaker 1: a place in my world instead of making them my world.
Speaker 1: So that's a lot more than I expected to say.
Speaker 1: But I think it's good to say that out loud,
Speaker 1: because I'm sure I'm not the only girl who's made
Speaker 1: men a man her world, right, Jennis Choplin, And to learn, No,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm worth and whole, and I don't need to
Speaker 1: shrink myself and make you the world. So you'll be
Speaker 1: You'll know how much important you are. You know how
Speaker 1: important you are. I think so much of my motivation
Speaker 1: with men has been because I felt sorry for them
Speaker 1: since I was a little kid. And when you know what,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna just, I'll cut my arm off so you
Speaker 1: can pick it up and shot back on you what
Speaker 1: I mean. I just And finally, I you know. And
Speaker 1: it's not easy. I don't have very many skills or
Speaker 1: habits with this idea, but I am good, I am whole.
Speaker 1: I don't need anybody. I'd like to have friends, and
Speaker 1: I'd like people to be true and loving and other
Speaker 1: than that, it's it's okay if I can't. If I
Speaker 1: they're just this this thing my mother did once and
Speaker 1: I don't know why it had a profound effect on me,
Speaker 1: but when I was really little, she said something like,
Speaker 1: you you mustn't hurt his feelings, and so I would
Speaker 1: really go over backwards to try to make sure that
Speaker 1: nobody was getting hurt by me, even if that meant,
Speaker 1: you know, I had to walk with somebody when I'm
Speaker 1: really little that I didn't really like, or are they
Speaker 1: smelled bad or whatever it was that I didn't like,
Speaker 1: I would sacrifice how I felt so they would be happy.
Speaker 1: That is what I did all my life, and I
Speaker 1: think I'm not doing that now, and I think it's
Speaker 1: largely because the person I care about first is totally intact,
Speaker 1: finally on his own, and so I didn't pick somebody
Speaker 1: who needed me to save them, and that's the keys.
Speaker 1: For some reason, I was attracted to somebody who was whole,
Speaker 1: and uh, we're both at this later years in life
Speaker 1: that because I mean, I see, I'm not that it's
Speaker 1: trouble free, but I think for the most part, these
Speaker 1: these issues are clear that you know, this is our age.
Speaker 1: That's what we'd like to do. I'd like to travel more.
Speaker 1: I'd like to be a little more carefree. Um, and
Speaker 1: that's the life I've lived because you know, I travel
Speaker 1: and I see the world. I'd love to do that
Speaker 1: with somebody, but that might not be this guy. But
Speaker 1: whatever it is, we're able to be together. I think
Speaker 1: we can have a happy time for as long as
Speaker 1: it's decreed. I know that sounds really noncommittal, but that's
Speaker 1: what I gotta do. Uh. In the past, you talk
Speaker 1: about wanting this kindness, etcetera. In your past relationships. Have
Speaker 1: you been volatile? Have you always been kind? Have you
Speaker 1: been aggressive at times? Yeah? Volatile? Are you kidding you
Speaker 1: read the book? Um? Yes, my parents My family were
Speaker 1: very emotional, demonstrative people. And my mother had a terrible flaw,
Speaker 1: which is she she could not apologize, and if she
Speaker 1: got mad, she stayed mad. She didn't seem to have
Speaker 1: a door to come out of being mad gracefully. So
Speaker 1: she does. She percolate for days and it and kind
Speaker 1: of dwindle off. As a child, you had to watch
Speaker 1: her cues if if you're back on the integat and
Speaker 1: and so really, I didn't know how to fight with people.
Speaker 1: You know, if there was a disagreement, it was over,
Speaker 1: I'm out. I didn't know how to, well, we have
Speaker 1: a disagreement and then we'll work it out. And as
Speaker 1: I did, her later life goes on. So when I
Speaker 1: was a kid, at any minute, life would disintegrate. Love
Speaker 1: there's always been challenged with with you know, with all
Speaker 1: the weapons out in every disagreement, and that I just
Speaker 1: simply didn't know another way. And if I there's a
Speaker 1: famous story of me, unfortunately in Arizona, Tippy. I was
Speaker 1: playing my my hometown for the first time, um in
Speaker 1: my career. And you know, if you read the book,
Speaker 1: you'll see how many terrible things had happened in Phoenix.
Speaker 1: One was my brother's accident, so it was trauma. It's
Speaker 1: all there. And I'm also bored and Auntsie before the
Speaker 1: sound check, and they've made a very dangerous backstage area.
Speaker 1: Everything's just propped up. They have folding tables with mirrors
Speaker 1: leaning against either curtains or temporary thing, temporary things. Yeah,
Speaker 1: mosts at a door and I said blah blah blah
Speaker 1: blah blah, and I walked out. I didn't even slam
Speaker 1: the door. The door and all the mirrors fell off
Speaker 1: the table and broke. Now there are a couple of
Speaker 1: things about that, which was my my stage manager j D.
Speaker 1: Dolan was standing there, Ricky, what's the matter? But it
Speaker 1: had been a total accident. But now I felt like
Speaker 1: I had to um stand for what it what it happened,
Speaker 1: fucking walked away. And that's funny. That thing became very
Speaker 1: a famous thing, which she did in Phoenix and the thing. Um,
Speaker 1: if I had a little bit of ability, I would oh.
Speaker 1: I could never say I'm sorry, or I could never
Speaker 1: have explained. I could never look like I had accidents
Speaker 1: happened to be um. I just didn't know how to
Speaker 1: be gracious. And and that graciousness comes from a power
Speaker 1: that you have inside where nothing is at stake. You
Speaker 1: can you know, you can be kind and courteous to anybody.
Speaker 1: There are people who will be kind to that curtious,
Speaker 1: that guy, but not to that guy. It doesn't they
Speaker 1: lose something if they say I'm so sorry, I apologize.
Speaker 1: And it took me a long time to you know,
Speaker 1: I didn't tell j D. I didn't I didn't do that. Um.
Speaker 1: But it didn't help because all the crew people heard
Speaker 1: it had to clean it up. And so the legend began.
Speaker 1: Tell me more about your insecurity and do you ever
Speaker 1: feel secure? Is like, if you're in your home and
Speaker 1: no one else is there, then you yourself. But as
Speaker 1: soon as you integrate with the world, you become insecure.
Speaker 1: I think for me, the answer to that question is
Speaker 1: not possible because you'd have to be secure to know
Speaker 1: if you're insecure, you know, you're just you're the way
Speaker 1: that you are at all times. I think we all
Speaker 1: feel more comfortable when we're by ourselves. But secure, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I'm I think I'm very secure now. Actually, um,
Speaker 1: I recognize that I have the ability, like anybody, to
Speaker 1: make the world a better place for me being in it.
Speaker 1: So whatever vehicle it is, whether we're talking together or
Speaker 1: I'm meeting the insurance guy, or I feel okay about
Speaker 1: my part in it. Sometimes though, now that I think
Speaker 1: of it, there are times where you know, my mother
Speaker 1: had agmoraphobia. Friends came over, she would run and hide
Speaker 1: in her in her room until they was really rude.
Speaker 1: But there are times where I feel a little overwhelmed
Speaker 1: by in person and in person meetings. This step is fun,
Speaker 1: but if we were all here together, it would be
Speaker 1: really hard about friends. You know the nature of the businesses,
Speaker 1: you know a million people, But to what to we
Speaker 1: are you in contact or see people? And we're in
Speaker 1: the covid era, so it's a little crazy on a
Speaker 1: regular basis. Is you're like somebody you talked to our
Speaker 1: email with every day, or and you have a lot
Speaker 1: of people looking for you and you instigated or people
Speaker 1: looking for you, or really you're kind of isolated unless
Speaker 1: you reach out or go out. Boy. That used to
Speaker 1: be the case when I lived in Los Angeles, so
Speaker 1: totally isolated. Less I ship felt at at least of us.
Speaker 1: I initiated some kind of contact, and it seemed there
Speaker 1: that all contact was was status based like people. I
Speaker 1: think it's true. People would call you back in the
Speaker 1: order of how important you are in a larger framework,
Speaker 1: and it was very hard to find friends. Now, I definitely.
Speaker 1: I was just talking to my friend in New Mexico.
Speaker 1: I have girlfriends now and boyfriends now and they called me.
Speaker 1: I don't know why they didn't before, but they called
Speaker 1: me now and I call them. I think I have friends. Yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure, definitely have friends here. We play scrabble and
Speaker 1: we go have coffees together. We play scrabble, a terrible
Speaker 1: game we do. Okay, wait, wait, wait, that all sounds good.
Speaker 1: Why is it a terrible Why is it a terrible game?
Speaker 1: You know, here's why. Because some people know a lot
Speaker 1: more words than other people, and some people use the
Speaker 1: book a lot more. Some people look at the book
Speaker 1: even when they're putting down the words. That's why they're looking.
Speaker 1: It's a fun game, but it but it's it's a
Speaker 1: little bit long, a little tedious. Well, you know, as
Speaker 1: we speak, there's this hot app core wordle Are you
Speaker 1: familiar with that? Do you use it? Okay? Uh? As
Speaker 1: you can play that one by yourself? But without to
Speaker 1: what degree? Are you tech savvy the computer in the phone, etcetera?
Speaker 1: I'm okay, I I have a little tolerance for it.
Speaker 1: I could do some stuff. Okay, let's go back to
Speaker 1: the music. How do you choose what songs to cover?
Speaker 1: I think it's mostly impulsive, although I'm working on a
Speaker 1: list right now with Rust Titleman, my old producer from
Speaker 1: the first two records, that we're creating a list of
Speaker 1: jazz songs that we're gonna start recording probably in a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks um and where so whatever happens to
Speaker 1: enter his mind of my mind in those two weeks
Speaker 1: are the songs that will end up on the list,
Speaker 1: and I picked them. I you know, I have a
Speaker 1: feeling about some passage in it. I can see or
Speaker 1: feel myself in the passage singing it. Um, And that's
Speaker 1: usually it. But sometimes it's a little random, like I
Speaker 1: did this song Bad Company. I always liked Bad Company
Speaker 1: singing it love Bad Company, and that was the best
Speaker 1: song I feel like make. I mean, I can't get
Speaker 1: enough with it, but I always loved on the first
Speaker 1: song on the second side, Bad Company. Yeah, that guy's
Speaker 1: a great singer. And so I recorded Bad Company again
Speaker 1: on a song with some jazzy kind of things um
Speaker 1: that I hadn't really thought of doing before, and did
Speaker 1: them because I thought of him at that month. And
Speaker 1: and my credit and the records are good. But if
Speaker 1: I could have, if I would have more control over
Speaker 1: how I do things, I would think I was a
Speaker 1: better musician. And that's why I'd like to have a
Speaker 1: really good producer. I'd like to have somebody who's thinking
Speaker 1: about the repertoire and thinking about the players and the
Speaker 1: best time to do it and the best place. Whereas
Speaker 1: I might be impulsive, that's not my forte. I'm a
Speaker 1: I'm a creative thinker and a and a singer, but
Speaker 1: organizing repertoire on people, no, I'm not so good at it.
Speaker 1: So um, I'm excited to see how it comes out
Speaker 1: with Russ and what songs. I think he'll create an atmosphere.
Speaker 1: You know, I always veer I do the I do
Speaker 1: the you know, the metal rock song with the trad
Speaker 1: jazz song, and I enjoy that, but I would really
Speaker 1: like to do an atmosphere and stay there, just one time,
Speaker 1: to stay there. Okay. Uh. You know when back in
Speaker 1: the old days when you work with Russ, he was
Speaker 1: paid by Warner Brothers who had a record contract. Have
Speaker 1: you maintained contact with Russell? Did reconnect with Russ? And
Speaker 1: Russ is totally independent now who will pay for the recordings? Yeah?
Speaker 1: We did not have contact. And in fact, I wondered
Speaker 1: if he was mad at me, because sometimes I see
Speaker 1: stuff on on the internet that he looked like. There's
Speaker 1: this one thing where this woman was interviewing him. It
Speaker 1: almost looked like a bridge club or something. She said, oh,
Speaker 1: the Ricky Lee Jones and so wonderful and that in
Speaker 1: pirates talk about that, and he just deflected it went
Speaker 1: somewhere else, and I was like, oh, why would he
Speaker 1: be mad at me? What is he still mad about pirates?
Speaker 1: What happened? And I reached out to him. I think
Speaker 1: I said, I tell you in this interview and whatever.
Speaker 1: It was, the moment that we heard each other's voices,
Speaker 1: it just went up and smoked. We were happy to
Speaker 1: hear each other. I went to New York. We had
Speaker 1: a lunch, went to New York, we had a dinner.
Speaker 1: Little by little, we've come in close again. He's he's
Speaker 1: you know, he's been there from the inception of rock
Speaker 1: and roll. He was in a band called the The
Speaker 1: Specters three or the Specters for it Phil Specter group.
Speaker 1: He was sixteen in that and his big sister was
Speaker 1: dating Phil Specter. He I'll ask him who wrote the
Speaker 1: lyric to whatever Arlean bucks, Remember that clarinet song, um
Speaker 1: da da da da da da da da da da
Speaker 1: dah the uh uh, it's not a He knows the
Speaker 1: name of the guy who didn't what his real name was.
Speaker 1: Wearing bored. He's like, Wow, So I have an idea.
Speaker 1: I'd like to do some recordings with Russ and make
Speaker 1: them into a podcast. Besides the recordings she'll do it.
Speaker 1: So we have vigorously redod our friendship. Okay, you're very
Speaker 1: much a rock chick. How do you know all these
Speaker 1: jazz songs? Well, before I was a rock chick, I
Speaker 1: grew up in a house where my father listened to
Speaker 1: jazz all the time. So the first before the eye
Speaker 1: was alive, before the Beatles. Can you release that? So
Speaker 1: the first music I heard Andy Williams, Harry Bellafante, that
Speaker 1: was the pop stuff stuff happening. And then his collection
Speaker 1: of Nina Simone, Billie Holiday, the Dorseys and Bitty Goodness
Speaker 1: that to I and Duke Gallington it again. That's that's
Speaker 1: where I grew up hearing before the Beatles came out,
Speaker 1: So I had, you know, this unique synthesis of jazz
Speaker 1: timing and straight ahead pop. Be the difference that pop
Speaker 1: is you're right off the down beach blad rather see
Speaker 1: you that little girl kind of count another man? And
Speaker 1: in jazz, how would you do that too? Well, I'd
Speaker 1: read you day, little girl. That'd be kind of blues.
Speaker 1: But you know what I mean, I feel that think
Speaker 1: in a different way. So the main thing is I
Speaker 1: love music. So if it's a great song, even I'm
Speaker 1: so load, so I can cry. You know, that's a
Speaker 1: devastating songs. So if it's a great song, if it
Speaker 1: moves me, that's the direction I grew in. Well, if
Speaker 1: you read the book, you were infatuated with Beatles. Uh,
Speaker 1: most of us love all the things they did. But
Speaker 1: what are your one or two favorite Beatles song? What
Speaker 1: is your favorite Beetle era? My favorite era is the
Speaker 1: very beginning. Um, there's something spooky, spooky about the beginning.
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's just reverb, but there's something. Um,
Speaker 1: you can feel this. You know, this is a bad
Speaker 1: that reverberated into the world. Yes and not it was
Speaker 1: big being crossby, but this music shook the world. And
Speaker 1: so you can feel this synthesis. I know I've used
Speaker 1: that word twice, but you can feel in um, the
Speaker 1: very beginning of this power forming in those weird, simple
Speaker 1: early songs. Later it's creative. I love it, don't get
Speaker 1: me wrong. But the thing that goes to my heart,
Speaker 1: I think it's always singing, and the singing on there
Speaker 1: is a place well I can go, just goes into
Speaker 1: my childhood heart. So how did you see the Beatles?
Speaker 1: Have you seen Paul McCartney. Did you see George Harrison? No,
Speaker 1: I haven't seen the Beatles. I was at a party
Speaker 1: once with Ringo, but I didn't have the nerve to
Speaker 1: go say hello, and I haven't. You know. I think
Speaker 1: I'd be all right if I met one. You know,
Speaker 1: sometimes you go, you'll melt, don't go near the fire,
Speaker 1: but I'd like to. That would be a powerful thing
Speaker 1: if I actually got to spend spend a minute with
Speaker 1: the with the I need to know where what happened. No,
Speaker 1: I haven't met him. Okay. Also in the book, You're
Speaker 1: you're going to a lot of shows. You've seen a
Speaker 1: lot of acts. What were the two best shows you
Speaker 1: were ever? Rock? Too? Well, you know I've had a
Speaker 1: lot of rock festivals. But um, the first time I
Speaker 1: saw Simon and Garfuncle, it was a powerful thing. Um
Speaker 1: there's no backdrop, you know, just a light on them.
Speaker 1: And he had so much command over what he was doing.
Speaker 1: And a time when you know, people are floppy hats
Speaker 1: and playing long solos to Paul Simon at command of
Speaker 1: his instrument and a little bit of message. A lot
Speaker 1: of college, um patronizing things, but but deep in there
Speaker 1: was such beautiful music and such command of the guitar
Speaker 1: and and I was moved by that. I think, um
Speaker 1: and I don't think. And then I saw Tom Waits
Speaker 1: at the Pantageous and I've never seen a show like it.
Speaker 1: He had a it was kind of theater. He had
Speaker 1: a stripper open and he's saying standing on the corner
Speaker 1: watching all the girls go by, and she was so
Speaker 1: beautiful and I was like, WHOA, what's that? And he
Speaker 1: kind of acted out the song so that that, you know,
Speaker 1: that was really inspiring. I think it was just when
Speaker 1: I met him, because he I couldn't have bought the ticket,
Speaker 1: he gave, gave me a ticket, gave all the friends
Speaker 1: from the Troubadour tickets, so I I think, you know,
Speaker 1: probably were done. I'll go, WHOA you forgot that? You know?
Speaker 1: Ella Fitzgerald or Sara of honor Frank. That's it, Frank
Speaker 1: Sinatra at the Universal Amphitheater just before they closed it,
Speaker 1: h Sarah vaughted open for him. And that's kind of
Speaker 1: where I imprinted this thing where when I watched him,
Speaker 1: there was nothing that he didn't know. He was in
Speaker 1: command of everything, and everybody there was safe in Frank's arms.
Speaker 1: He knew where he was going and you could just
Speaker 1: sit back and go. And I went, that's that's the
Speaker 1: place to grow up to be. That's what people seek.
Speaker 1: They want you to know exactly where you're going and
Speaker 1: take up there and um. So that was not only
Speaker 1: you know, he was struggling a little bit, but it
Speaker 1: didn't matter. He he and the and the orchestra and
Speaker 1: the band were one. And that was another thing I
Speaker 1: still covered, which is to have an ensemble that can
Speaker 1: you know, go with you where you go, where you
Speaker 1: don't have to follow their down be they follow yours.
Speaker 1: That was when that was still happening in that kind
Speaker 1: of music, and that you know, if you can have
Speaker 1: that with a little bit of sexy rocket roll sometimes,
Speaker 1: then you've got a unique and wonderful thing or not.
Speaker 1: You mentioned Ross, you mentioned Tom Waits in your book.
Speaker 1: You say you think people are only supposed to be
Speaker 1: in your life at a certain time. Then they grow
Speaker 1: one way, you go another way. So to what degree
Speaker 1: all of these people from the past do you have
Speaker 1: any contact with them? Do you reconnect with them if
Speaker 1: they're ill? What's the viewpoint on that. I don't think
Speaker 1: I'll ever talk to Calm again. His wife is pretty
Speaker 1: adamant that that never happened. Rust TITLEMN. You know, like
Speaker 1: I said, I'm talking to him Lyle love It found
Speaker 1: his way back into my life a week or two
Speaker 1: ago and said, I just want to reach out to
Speaker 1: you and have contact with you again, just like that.
Speaker 1: That's all. And who doesn't. So we began to I
Speaker 1: wrote a little letter and uh, so you never know
Speaker 1: who's going to come back around if you stay long enough. Okay,
Speaker 1: And you talked about loving to travel. What were some
Speaker 1: of your best experiences traveling and where have you not
Speaker 1: been that you want to go. I have not been
Speaker 1: to Africa, and uh, i'd like to see those animals
Speaker 1: before they're gone. I really want to see the Northern
Speaker 1: lights and uh actually took a gig in Alaska though
Speaker 1: no offense to them, but there were the hopes of
Speaker 1: seen the Northern lights, but it was cloudy, so I'd
Speaker 1: like to see that event. Um. I haven't been to
Speaker 1: India or Russia or Kazotstan, and I haven't particularly you know,
Speaker 1: those aren't on my list of where I really I
Speaker 1: want to go before I die, But it would be
Speaker 1: exciting to go everywhere. I think that you know, no
Speaker 1: place rises above that. You know, they're all defined by
Speaker 1: the audience that was there, and the audience is all
Speaker 1: the same audience, They're all the same person. I was
Speaker 1: glad I got to go all the way down to Argentina,
Speaker 1: and I'd like to see Para del Fuego and Antarctica
Speaker 1: right the Antarctica now. Um, but I guess I've I've
Speaker 1: been so many places in my I'm I guess I've
Speaker 1: been to many places, and and I just I'd like
Speaker 1: to see that extraordinary event in the sky and be
Speaker 1: in the home land of Africa. Although I'm Neanderthals, so
Speaker 1: my my I'd probably come from the Deander Valley, but
Speaker 1: I think of the of Africa as the home and
Speaker 1: I'd like to go there and see if when I
Speaker 1: look up at the stars there, if if I go,
Speaker 1: I remember these stars or what happens? And what do
Speaker 1: you think of the state of the world today? Oh? My, well,
Speaker 1: the first thing that comes to mind is the young
Speaker 1: country of America, such a big hope, not even realizing
Speaker 1: how great it is because it's always fighting with itself.
Speaker 1: I lived in France for a while, so I got
Speaker 1: to look back over my shoulder and went, wow, what
Speaker 1: an incredible country America is. You know, we we keep
Speaker 1: hearing information about how other countries don't like us, but
Speaker 1: when you're over there, you realize how much they love us.
Speaker 1: They're like they're like the sister, sometimes the jealous sister,
Speaker 1: but they love us and wish they could be as
Speaker 1: wild as we are. So when democracy begins to fail,
Speaker 1: as we've seen so quickly, you know, in ten or
Speaker 1: twenty years, I feel kind of sad about that. I
Speaker 1: feel sad that, you know, our brothers and our brethren
Speaker 1: here are so selfish that they just think about what
Speaker 1: they want instead of protecting the larger thing of making
Speaker 1: sure whether or not you went that guy or that guy.
Speaker 1: You got to make sure the machine keeps darring, gott
Speaker 1: keep having democracy. Um, I feel frightened for the whole
Speaker 1: world if this, if this thing continues to degenerate and
Speaker 1: go down. But on the other hand, it's a wonderful
Speaker 1: and large world. It's there have been many epox epochs
Speaker 1: of the whole systems of life that came and went,
Speaker 1: came and went. But I have a little, um, a
Speaker 1: little uh petrified snail here about a hundred million years old.
Speaker 1: I got on the Permian Trail and in New Mexico,
Speaker 1: I always like to look at the stars and that
Speaker 1: the petrified living things to remind myself that we're part
Speaker 1: of a larger movement of life and light. Maybe even
Speaker 1: a story, but I'm not sure if it's a story,
Speaker 1: it's something we can't conceive them. So don't take things
Speaker 1: so seriously. That's that's what I tell myself. Look, there's
Speaker 1: a star, don't take it, it's dead. Don't take anything seriously. Um.
Speaker 1: So I think the state of the you know, we
Speaker 1: tend to take ourselves and our times seriously. We're so
Speaker 1: afraid of death and of our power that every generation
Speaker 1: thinks it's the one that's gonna kill everybody and everything.
Speaker 1: But it's not the worst thing to try to if
Speaker 1: it helps remind people to be their better selves. I
Speaker 1: think that America is a light to the whole world.
Speaker 1: And if we don't recognize it before it's too late,
Speaker 1: and we don't don't mean we can be bullies. But
Speaker 1: if we don't recognize it before it's too late, then
Speaker 1: it'll be cool. And if we recognize it, then who knows,
Speaker 1: you know, who knows what a great what a great
Speaker 1: thing might happen. I'm just trying this thing here. This
Speaker 1: is a nice, a nice thing to tell you. I
Speaker 1: think it's called sub stack. And these guys invented this
Speaker 1: thing where they take ten percent of so I hope
Speaker 1: that's okay to tell They take a small percentage of it,
Speaker 1: and they invite people to create anything they want, and
Speaker 1: they help them do it. They'll give you an editor,
Speaker 1: they'll give you this, they'll give you a back. You
Speaker 1: can reach out to your fans and have them come
Speaker 1: and you can talk to them, seeming to them, right
Speaker 1: to them constantly. It's it's a little altruistic, little capitalistic,
Speaker 1: but but the main focus is to avoid commerciality and
Speaker 1: the pressure to do things based on money and to
Speaker 1: do things directly to your audience. If little things like
Speaker 1: that can pop up, who knows what can happen, you know.
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I was very excited about the
Speaker 1: idea that that a younger generation is trying to, you know,
Speaker 1: generate money, but also do things for the greater good.
Speaker 1: I think it's a I think it's a beautiful world,
Speaker 1: and I have a lot of hope for it. I
Speaker 1: really do. I have a lot of hope for it.
Speaker 1: Don't you know. But I'm a pessimist. I am not
Speaker 1: I am an optimist. I could go on. We could
Speaker 1: have a four hour discussion about this, but I know
Speaker 1: you're limited in time. Uh if you could, if I
Speaker 1: can weave a magic wand or snap your fingers, what
Speaker 1: would you want to change about you or your life?
Speaker 1: I mean, there's so many things you write about the
Speaker 1: book where you know you've been attacked for your looks
Speaker 1: or you made certain choices. Are you fatalistic like that's
Speaker 1: just the way it is? Or if we could change
Speaker 1: a couple of things, what would you change? But the
Speaker 1: first answers that I'd have you bring my mother back
Speaker 1: because I missed my mom. And you know, I was thinking,
Speaker 1: we have two kinds of friends. We have the friends
Speaker 1: that that make us laugh, and then we have the
Speaker 1: friends who laugh at our jokes, who know how to laugh.
Speaker 1: And there and that rare friend who laughs when we
Speaker 1: want them to laugh. Understand it so deeply. I only
Speaker 1: have a friend or two who laughs right on you now,
Speaker 1: and mother, I just senter into hysterical fits of laughter.
Speaker 1: And that made me feel so powerful. I could do anything.
Speaker 1: When I hunt up with my mother, I could write
Speaker 1: any song or do anything because my mother left at
Speaker 1: my jokes. Um, so that's the first thing I feel like, Um,
Speaker 1: I miss having that one son and mood in my life.
Speaker 1: On a more practical basis, I guess, um, I don't
Speaker 1: spend any time doing that, you know, A wishless. I
Speaker 1: hope that I reach a larger audience. But if I
Speaker 1: do reach a larger audience, I don't want to, you know,
Speaker 1: do that thing. I should have doubt myself and whether
Speaker 1: or not I belonged or so. Um, I feel like
Speaker 1: whatever comes to us to come. I'd like to not
Speaker 1: be poor. I'd really like to not be poor. But
Speaker 1: I have a feeling like, uh, in my case, maybe
Speaker 1: every things on the right truck. And do you need
Speaker 1: to be remembered or yes if you do, and tell
Speaker 1: us more about that. Yeah, that's a funny question because
Speaker 1: I could end up that petrified not even if I'm
Speaker 1: just a petrified rock. I guess I want to still
Speaker 1: be here. I like it here, so I wanted to
Speaker 1: get buried. They have these pods they'll put you in
Speaker 1: and plant a tree on top of you. I know,
Speaker 1: plants don't eat they eat carbon or nitrogen or something
Speaker 1: but I'm trying to be part of it, you know.
Speaker 1: I just want to be part of the living world,
Speaker 1: whether it's in a very physical way or in and
Speaker 1: what people say, or a melody that they hum maybe
Speaker 1: in three hundred years ago. Whatever it is, is something
Speaker 1: I did. Even if they don't know I did it,
Speaker 1: it's still here, like green sleeves. You know who wrote that,
Speaker 1: or you know? Or my name? That's that's okay too,
Speaker 1: though of course by then it won't have anything. But
Speaker 1: I think I'm not Somebody quoted somebody on a movie
Speaker 1: yesterday I was watching. They said the last person you
Speaker 1: don't die until the last person who's going to say
Speaker 1: your name says your name. That's interesting. You know. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of things in biblical writings or spiritual writings
Speaker 1: that talk about how we want to be remembered, we
Speaker 1: want our name to go on. It just seems to
Speaker 1: be an intrinsic that some people, you know, just burn
Speaker 1: me up and brought me in the river when I'm dead.
Speaker 1: But but for me, I'd like some melody I wrote
Speaker 1: to be some long time from now. Rickly, I really
Speaker 1: love you. I mean, it's I don't know if we'd
Speaker 1: ever get along in real life. But so much of
Speaker 1: what you say resonates with my identity. I mean, feeling
Speaker 1: like an outsider, wanting to be an insider, the insecurities,
Speaker 1: all that other stuff that I and I look at
Speaker 1: the rest of the people and they're going to a job.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's like Jackson Brown's pretender or something. I just
Speaker 1: don't know how they do it. I don't either. You know,
Speaker 1: it's probably really hard for them and and not to
Speaker 1: you know, look over at them. But but on the
Speaker 1: other hand, not everybody's cut out to do artistic things.
Speaker 1: They look at this job and go, I hate to
Speaker 1: have to travel all the time. I look at their
Speaker 1: job and go, I hated if I didn't get to travel.
Speaker 1: So I like to think that we serve each other
Speaker 1: a little bit, you know, you make this, somebody listens
Speaker 1: to it and their days a little bit, and then
Speaker 1: they go out do something better. I think. I think
Speaker 1: it's good what you're doing, and you've found someplace where
Speaker 1: the way you feel makes something good in the world,
Speaker 1: don't you think? Oh yeah, But I mean we could
Speaker 1: go really so many of these things. I mean, you
Speaker 1: have a child. I know that you're It's not something
Speaker 1: you'd rather discuss, but I don't have. I've invested everything
Speaker 1: in what I have and in my so called career,
Speaker 1: and then people our age are starting to retire and
Speaker 1: are on the down slope. I mean, you said earlier,
Speaker 1: you're older, you're wiser, you're mellow where, you're happier, You've
Speaker 1: seen all these things. But then you have all these
Speaker 1: people checking out and they're only living through their memories,
Speaker 1: and you say, well, you know, I got a lot
Speaker 1: of want to do here, and it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: I want to make my market. It's like also, now,
Speaker 1: because of the Internet, you can play. But you know,
Speaker 1: it used to be very hard to get a record deal.
Speaker 1: And if you've got a record deal, even if you
Speaker 1: didn't have a hit, the label would make a certain
Speaker 1: number of people aware of his publicity, etcetera. Today you
Speaker 1: can make Anybody can make something and post it online.
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean anybody's gonna hear it or read it.
Speaker 1: I know, like the whole game. The whole game changed
Speaker 1: while we were playing. It's kind of shocking. I mean,
Speaker 1: you got a hit that was ubiquitous. You talk about
Speaker 1: Saturday Night Live, Saturday Night Live, the ratings are you know,
Speaker 1: they're fraction in Saturday That life means nothing. I don't
Speaker 1: want to make it about Saturday Night Live, but it's
Speaker 1: like it was. It was the heartbeat of a generation
Speaker 1: and there isn't even anything like that anymore. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know if there is, because it would be
Speaker 1: speaking to a younger generation than us. But to come
Speaker 1: from a time where there was only a TV and radio,
Speaker 1: and on TV only one one show that had impact
Speaker 1: imagined that. Yeah, so the things that happened were much
Speaker 1: more miraculous, much more powerful for them having found their
Speaker 1: way to the one place that you had to go
Speaker 1: in order to be seen or heard. It's funny because
Speaker 1: with so many choices now there is no more greater
Speaker 1: music for their being more doors, that music is behind
Speaker 1: because the amount of people who are powerful, meaningful is
Speaker 1: always the same and the fact that you know, the
Speaker 1: percentage is this much, and the fact that there are
Speaker 1: more doors just means it's crowded with more people who
Speaker 1: are not really very good, while the great people are
Speaker 1: still probably trying to find their way to the door
Speaker 1: that that all that all come and that's the world
Speaker 1: they're going to live in. There creating that world, it's
Speaker 1: not the world we do. It's hard for us to
Speaker 1: imagine what that will be like. Um if if so
Speaker 1: many people who aren't great get equal time to the
Speaker 1: people who are truly gifted, but that's for them to
Speaker 1: work out, Okay, but I just to stay. I have
Speaker 1: to respond to them. I think it's a different ethos.
Speaker 1: In the sixties, we all came from a middle class.
Speaker 1: The income inequality was nowhere like it was today, and
Speaker 1: you could leave things on the table. The crass commercialization
Speaker 1: didn't exist. The most important thing was to make your
Speaker 1: statement and be unfettered. I mean, a rock star was
Speaker 1: as rich and powerful as anybody in America for getting
Speaker 1: Europe with royalty, and you could make a statement and
Speaker 1: everybody could hear it, whereas today it's about the pannumbra.
Speaker 1: Oh man, if I have some success, I can sell this,
Speaker 1: I can do this. And there's a lot of creativity.
Speaker 1: You know there was in the internet. It's not music,
Speaker 1: and right now there's amazing creativity and tell vision. But
Speaker 1: for those of us who lived through it, people have
Speaker 1: no idea what it was like. When the Beatles hit,
Speaker 1: it was like a light went off. There was music before,
Speaker 1: but this made it the most important thing in the world. Yes,
Speaker 1: it did, and we were there. Yeah, I'm with you.
Speaker 1: The crass commercialism that you're talking about, the the small
Speaker 1: group of people who made it hit are whatever to
Speaker 1: be crass. That will pass. It's just a pop culture
Speaker 1: as it's becoming. It's just an ever changing, folding thing.
Speaker 1: Used to be in England you'd watch a thing come
Speaker 1: and go in six months, while in America lasted for
Speaker 1: a few years. We've caught up to them now and
Speaker 1: and you know it's going. It is a place where
Speaker 1: people go to make money, not make art and um,
Speaker 1: but I think that that will pass. Two, I really do.
Speaker 1: I think it's it's going to be ever changing, wonderful
Speaker 1: thing and and there will be a time soon where
Speaker 1: music and musicians are not the top of the of
Speaker 1: the social strata that they are now. You know what
Speaker 1: will Who knows what it will be? My computer programmers,
Speaker 1: I don't know. But this time in which we live,
Speaker 1: when musicians get to be beloved, I don't think it'll
Speaker 1: always be like that? Is that just who I know?
Speaker 1: Is that optimistic or pessimistic? I just think things change.
Speaker 1: I'm thinking five d years ago, who knows, who were
Speaker 1: any who any of the singers were, so it's probably
Speaker 1: going to change again. Just realistic. I think there will
Speaker 1: always be music, whether to drive the culture or not.
Speaker 1: That's yet to be seen. Anyway, the irony here is
Speaker 1: other than your boyfriend. I don't think we covered a
Speaker 1: single thing that we talked about in our first conversation. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the personal is a lot about the book. I think thanks,
Speaker 1: that were right, So I hope we can do this
Speaker 1: again in the future, just because you know, it's so
Speaker 1: great talking to you, so thanks so much for taking
Speaker 1: the time, Ricky. But I just want to say thank
Speaker 1: you because you know, people, so many people responded because
Speaker 1: of what you said about the book, and it was
Speaker 1: so helpful to me, and I really want to thank
Speaker 1: you for that. Well, you know, I tell my psychiatrists
Speaker 1: we talked about marketing. They said, if I want to
Speaker 1: move ahead, the best thing I can do is just
Speaker 1: sit here and write something. And so in your a
Speaker 1: particular case, you wrote the book and you've got a
Speaker 1: certain amount of publicity. It's all rock biographies autobiographiest but
Speaker 1: if you read the book, it's something that will stick
Speaker 1: with you forever. I mean, your experience of hitchhiking is
Speaker 1: a teenager going to meet that person in Canada and
Speaker 1: what was going on? What they said, I mean, these
Speaker 1: are ex and the way it was written, I can't
Speaker 1: I can't talk about another book that's even similar, you know,
Speaker 1: and it's it's and that's why it's so memorable. And
Speaker 1: I tried. I was so impacted, you know. I hope
Speaker 1: to catch some of that what was in the book
Speaker 1: of what I wrote. But thanks for saying that, and I,
Speaker 1: as I said, I was glad to do it. In
Speaker 1: any event, we've come to the end of the feeling
Speaker 1: we've known. I have to say goodbye, Ricky Lee, thanks
Speaker 1: so much for doing us. Until next time. This is
Speaker 1: Bob Leftstax eight