WEBVTT - Rickie Lee Jones 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:12.160 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:15.000 My guest today is the one and only Ricky Lee Jones. 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:18.279 Ricky Lee, good to have you on the program. I'm 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:23.640 glad to be here at last. Okay, what the audience 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:28.280 doesn't realize is we did an exhaustive podcast back in 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:31.200 the fall, and we had an audio problem. We covered 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:33.040 so much territory. I don't know if we could ever 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:37.000 cover that again, but we're gonna give it another shot. So, 0:00:37.640 --> 0:00:41.519 Ricky Lee, you've been out on the road. What has 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:46.120 that experience been like in the COVID era. Well, I've 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:49.159 done a few dates, but let's see. We did some 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:52.680 in September, and then I guess did Florida. So playing 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:56.120 Florida isn't like the rest of the country. And the 0:00:56.200 --> 0:01:00.560 first night was people were masked and it was a show. 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:05.600 The second night's odd, very few people had masks on. 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:11.600 I guess the governor's anti mandate mandate came into effect um. 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:14.880 But for me to be honest one time on stage, 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:18.280 I don't even remember there's COVID. I don't remember anything. 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:21.680 I'm just up there playing as I always did. So 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:27.840 it's it's there are less states harder to do. But 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:31.160 for me it's the same. Okay, any fear of getting 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:35.520 COVID yourself, well a little bit, um, but not enough 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:38.400 to keep me from going out there and sharing the 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:41.959 air with people. And at this point in time, what 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:45.240 is the motivation? To what degree is the motivation go 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:48.760 on the road? Money? To what degree is the experience? 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:51.360 To what degree is hey, I just gotta have to 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:53.680 do something else in my life than there are other 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:56.720 people who say you can't get that hit anywhere else 0:01:56.760 --> 0:01:59.080 in life being on stage. So what's motivating you at 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:03.240 this point to go on the road? Money? Money, money, money, 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:06.320 I don't have. Uh, you know, I think if I 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:10.720 were rich, would I would I want to go on tour. 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:14.200 I bet you I would. But I can't have that 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:17.079 perspective because I have to go on to have to 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:21.440 That's how I make my check. So that gets tiring 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:24.880 to um. But like anybody else who has to go 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:30.120 to work, UM, you know, I don't always see um 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:35.720 that I'd like to do it. I love performing for people, 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:41.680 but it's exhausting, it's exhausting emotionally. Um. Sometimes I'm done, 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:45.040 you know, and I'd like to wait for the next 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:47.600 group of songs to come or my life to turn 0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:50.640 the dial and then come on stage again. But I 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:56.280 can't keep keep working. So um, that being said, there 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:59.920 is I don't like that praiser, but there is something 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:06.240 happening this year. There is something happening wonderful for me. 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:12.040 People are recognizing me. I don't feel like I've changed, 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:16.920 particularly getting older, and I could add that you know 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:21.399 a woman in pop or rock music getting older, being 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:24.919 one of the survivors making it to old age. And 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:31.639 my job has is bringing to me um a confidence 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:38.720 because I just don't care anymore. And I don't think 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:43.080 it's an arrogance. I think it's just finally, if you 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:46.680 like it, come, I love, I love, I want to 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:49.920 give love. If you don't, that's all right to go 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:52.840 where you like it. And I'm not trying to win, 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:57.560 which was a lifelong pursuit. Believe me that one guy 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:01.840 will never like what I do, so that's been shed 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:07.120 from me. And when I'm on stage, I'm everybody, I 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:12.200 imagine UM knows exactly what they're doing. So the thing 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:15.040 that everything is not at stake when I'm up there, 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:19.599 it doesn't matter if my socks match. All that matters 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:24.560 is that I'm singing the best I can sing. Um 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:27.960 that's come to me now, And I think that's translating 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:31.320 in that way that only comes to older people, where 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:35.679 people go, wow, that she's really good. She's really good. 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:39.240 Now to what degree does that free you creatively? You 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:41.880 know things you say, well, maybe the audience, whether it 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:44.920 be on recordings or alive. Me have a hard time 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:47.360 getting to this for this time saying I'm going to 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:49.680 test the limits. I'm not living forever. Who gives a 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:53.240 ship that's a great question. I did some testing of 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:57.200 limits back when I did Ghost Ahead and and and 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:02.279 challenged people's personal reception of me, both both in the 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:07.120 recording and on tour. That's not what I don't need 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:10.960 to do that anymore, but I recognize that there is 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:15.960 some conforming going on. You know, it's such a complicated thing, 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:19.400 the way we interact with each other. So you know, 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:23.400 you go, I love it when you brush your hair 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:26.880 down and wear that red shirt. I like my red shirt. 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:29.440 But now that I know you want me to brush 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:31.680 my hair down with the red shirt, I don't know 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:34.279 if I like it anymore. So all those ways we 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:39.279 um doubt what we do naturally, So when I'm on stage, 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:43.760 I naturally sing jazz, or I naturally like to play 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:47.240 a happy song, or I naturally very depressed and playset song. 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:53.000 But when I know you're expecting that, then I start 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:56.480 to feel like I'm, you know, at work and calling 0:05:56.480 --> 0:06:00.760 it lines. So then I go, I have so many ideas. 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:06.120 I'd like to do a night of improvisation and um, 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:09.919 and I will do that. But but the question is, 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:12.880 am I just doing it because I want you to 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:15.479 like me no matter what I do. I want you 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:19.200 to prove that you like me. I like that superhero 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:22.880 on the Boys, want you like me, not just my 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:26.800 music And all those trips I went to I went 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:30.080 through in the thirties and forties, and I just I 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:34.720 don't really have them now. When I'm ready, maybe I'll 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:40.040 take off my clothes and wear fishnet body suit and 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:44.599 and improvise the entire night if I feel like that's 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:48.800 gonna take us where we want to go. Because it's 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:53.000 about the audience as much as me. It just is. 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:58.080 It's not about you watching me derived pleasure. It's about 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:03.800 us and how we experience the songs together. When I'm 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:07.200 singing and I think that you know, there have been 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:09.360 times in my life where I thought, this is all 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:11.880 about me, it's not about you. I don't care if 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:14.840 you like it. Um, I'm not supposed to care if 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:18.320 you like it, So so fuck you, guys. It's not 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:23.000 already to say that, and um, yeah, but I know 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:26.160 that that's not the truth. It never was the truth. 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:30.680 The truth is if you travel all the way from 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:33.360 your home and you buy a ticket and all the 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:35.400 things you have to do to get there, and all 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:37.840 the things I have to do to get there, we've 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:42.160 come to be together. And that's what this moment is. 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:46.880 It's me singing and and that spirit going through it. 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:50.840 And so, um, I feel like that's your job. I 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:54.640 do very well and I have confidence now in in 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:58.520 what I do. And uh, I don't know why, but 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:05.560 I spent a lifetime without much confidence. Okay, so the 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:08.640 people at the show, do you? I mean? I have 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:11.560 this very distinct memory of going to see Brian Adams 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:14.600 and happened to be during the daytime where it's harder 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.440 to get the audience, and he literally took the set list, 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:20.680 looked at the band, ripped it in half, and then 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:23.160 worked his way into the minds of the audience and 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:26.280 bought everybody together. If people show up at your show, 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:28.960 do you feel an obligation at this late date, at 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:31.640 this age to get that person who's sort of you know, 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:34.720 looking at their phone or drifting. Do you sit up 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:38.080 and saying saying, I'm gonna convince that person. First of all, 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:42.280 nobody looks at their phone when I'm on stage. Everybody 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:46.240 is with me, and if they're not, they're probably somewhere 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:52.560 where I can't see them. Um. You know, I never 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:57.400 have a set list. It's always about what we feel today. 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:02.160 Sometimes this song follows this song really well, so you 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:05.400 might trying to do a couple back to back, but 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:10.640 I'm always listening and feeling how do I feel tonight? 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:12.439 And where do they want to go? Are they kind 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:16.520 of sadder? All right, then we'll go that way. So um, 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:19.439 So that's not a big deal to me. It requires 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:23.000 very special people in the band. They not only have 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:25.800 to be great players, but they have to not be 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:30.760 intimidated easily, because that thing of not knowing what you're 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:34.840 gonna play next can be can make people angry. I've 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:38.320 had musics to get angry about that. So you gotta 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:40.840 love play and you gotta be a great player, so 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:43.200 that whatever I call you, you're gonna be able to 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:46.559 do it, and then we have a good time because otherwise, 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:50.240 in a short time they're playing wrote. They hate me 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:53.400 because they're playing wrote, but not as much as they 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:56.920 hate me, if I call it a different sense of challenge. 0:09:57.760 --> 0:09:59.640 But the main thing I don't I don't know if 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:02.440 you've seen me and how many times you've seen me, 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:10.800 but my performances are usually very powerful, um very powerful. 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:13.160 I like to say that, like church or anything. But 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:16.520 people get caught up. There's a lot of crying, there's 0:10:16.520 --> 0:10:21.440 a lot of laughing. We are feeling and experiencing things 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:26.080 that that's inexplicable. It's more than the voice, that's more 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:30.440 than the story. All the lifetime people have invested in 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:34.439 the in the music is taking place there. So it's 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:38.840 a powerful thing. It is not you know, it's not playing, 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:42.440 it's not playing the list. But I get why you 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:46.680 would do something extraordinary in the middle of the day 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:50.360 to wake people up, you know, to the fact that 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:52.680 they're in a show whatever time. I get why you did. 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:57.360 And you know, I haven't crowd served yet, so I 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:01.480 might have jumped out in the audience. Carry me, carry 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:04.640 me and uh, and that could have gone wrong. But 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:08.720 testing them that way, I understand why you go. You know, 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:11.599 if I play this show to a dead audience, to 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:16.200 people who are distracted and uninterested, it's gonna harm me. 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:20.040 It's gonna make me cynical, it's gonna make it harder 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:24.360 for me to do the next show. So I'm I'm gonna. 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:26.240 So the two things you do is you hold your 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:29.200 breath and and do it, or you go, let's shake 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:33.120 them up. And sometimes that works. Sometimes you get pressy 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:36.800 people out there who you know, think you should behave 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:41.880 just this way. But um, but it's all okay. However 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:45.079 they whatever they write, however they act, it's it's all 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:48.720 right as long as I reached that one person. I 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:54.720 know there's one person out there who came for something powerful, 0:11:55.040 --> 0:12:00.240 some healing, some direction, and and I know it's not 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:03.000 like I experienced it when they do, but I have 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:09.120 faith that they're there, and that's why I can get 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:12.160 some pleasure out of having to go to Florida. I'm 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:16.640 playing at the Taco Standard. The song writer postables. Okay, 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:23.720 so you know you have a very analytical perspective. You 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:26.480 understand what you're doing when you hit it out of 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:31.040 the park, to use a baseball metaphor, are you frustrated 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:34.400 that you're not reaching more people? You had that moment 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:36.960 the end of the seventies early eighties where everybody in 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:39.800 America was paying attention to you. Do you get frustrated 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:42.120 that now you're doing great stuff and not as many 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:45.160 people are aware of it. Yeah, sometimes, Bob, I do. 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:51.319 Sometimes I feel sorry for myself and uh and and 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:58.560 I feel a little angry or irked like so, but 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:02.800 why you know, well, you do only feel upset if 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:07.200 there was somebody else getting the attention who was not 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:13.160 really who. You know. It comes down to ego, but 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:16.880 it also comes under money. So if my ego said 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:20.400 I am so much better than that guy, why can't 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.440 I at least get the same stage he has to 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:27.280 get a chance to be heard? Um And a lot 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:30.720 of that thinking just just you know, I just went 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:36.280 I think things have a time, and I think that, Um, 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:39.840 you know, if there's a time where I'll be served 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:42.960 well by being in front of a larger audience and 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:46.720 I could do my job taking care of them, then 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:49.800 I'll be in front of a bigger audience. I think 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:53.800 I accept the fact that I am. I like to 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:58.440 just say unique, unusual, um, but I accept the fact 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:06.559 that I'm not and have never been particularly homogenized. I 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:08.360 don't want to say normal, but you know what I mean. 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:12.320 So that's harder to for people, all the people involved, 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:15.680 and to put that person in front of a large audience. 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:21.920 But um so the answers. Yes, it's been frustrating sometimes, 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:26.520 but I feel I really feel like if that's where 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:30.160 I want to go, I'll aim there and make the 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:33.360 things around me take me there. Okay, to what degree 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:36.920 are you a student of the game. Let's start with Okay, 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:41.800 you're not really caring about reaching everybody. But are you saying, well, 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:44.160 I was in this town a year ago, and my 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:46.800 numbers are up or down and I and that affects 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:49.840 what I'm playing. Oh yeah, I don't know anything about 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:53.520 that stuff. The unfortunate thing is I don't think my 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:56.760 manager did either. So now I think I have a 0:14:56.920 --> 0:15:03.960 crew around me. It's it is very sophisticated and so 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:09.960 whatever those numbers are, hopefully, um we'll be building it. 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:14.320 You know. Let me tell you that when I'd sell 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:16.880 out a place right and I didn't want to play 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:19.800 the really big places I kept it. I said, we're 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.840 not gonna ever go bigger than five thousands. We're gonna 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:26.880 try to keep this intimate thing right. And I had 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:31.280 I had, um, you know, constructed the thing as I 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:34.280 wanted it to be. And I had these rules, which 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:36.240 was to never go out and look at the audience 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.840 while they're pibly it. But one day at a winery, 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:43.640 I went out and watched them coming in, and I 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:46.520 said to myself, Wow, I can't relate to any of 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:49.600 those people, right, And how can I say, you know, 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:52.600 you don't know what their dressed, who they are. But 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:57.440 I just went, oh, my audience, it's not my peer group. 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:04.040 And realize that when you have a large audience, probably 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:09.080 seventy percent of them are coming for a very different 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:13.080 reason than that wonderful core group who comes to you know, 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:17.720 like like vampires, we get really high off each other 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:21.000 the blood and intoxicated. The rest of those people come 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:27.040 to watch, and they're good numbers and they fill the seats, 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:31.520 but they don't give you what you come for. And 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:36.360 and I suspect, you know, I'm I I think quite 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:39.600 horribly that something in my mind when I don't want 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:44.920 them to come anymore, I only want the true religion, 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:49.480 the people who need to be there, the people who 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:53.520 you know are so invested in the music, not the 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:57.200 people who came because their cousin likes joking the love 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:01.160 or related to the promoter. All those people and um 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:05.159 and and that's okay. You know, I understand why I 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:10.080 why I did that, But I think it's so ego based. 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:16.120 I think I think now everybody's invited, and the more people, 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:21.440 the more bean Besia will grow, the more people who come, 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:26.920 the more love and good will, the more I live forever, 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:32.280 Like every artist wants to live forever. Everybody wants to 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:37.560 live forever. If you see me play, I'll be in 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:42.200 your memory and and you pass that. You know these 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:46.400 are very very personal things. They'll talk about it very much. 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:50.359 That's the way I'll be with you always, because you'll 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:53.639 tell the story to your kid or your Granted, I 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:56.560 saw her at the Da da Da Da Da da da. 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:00.240 And you know, if you last a hundred years after 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:05.399 you die, then you've done a good job for the 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:09.240 legend of Rickingly Jones, whatever that legend is going to 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.440 end up being. But also in a very practical basis, 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:16.600 I won't be seventy years old and have to work 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:20.040 in order to pay my mortgage, and that would be 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:32.040 really great. Okay, let's go back to the money. Uh 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:35.639 Is it that just you know, living now, a revenue 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:38.640 from recordings and publishing is not as high or did 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:42.000 you blow the money and you regret it. I regret 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:44.159 blowing it, but I had to add sick people in 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:46.920 my family and had to pay for them. That's how 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:51.200 I spent them. Um. I was also devastated in that 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:57.439 horrible crash of two thousand and eight. Um, So I 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:01.120 didn't I did bad things, and I took for granted 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:03.840 that I'd always have a little bit of money and 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:06.159 I lost it. And when I lost it and the 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:08.359 i r S put a lean on everything I had, 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:11.840 I could not get back on my feet. And I 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:16.880 was a rock star. I didn't know anything about anything 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:20.399 about anything that I did with money, taxes, how to 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:24.640 pay bills. It was a rough and hard lesson to 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:29.119 lose everything and find you know, all those nice people 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:32.199 at the bank don't give a shit about you. You know, 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:34.120 they're not going to give me a loan or help 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:37.040 you do that just because you used to make millions 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:41.480 of dollars buddy, can you spare it? Do? So? All 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:44.720 those lessons that so many others were learning at the time, 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:51.520 I also learned. Um. I of course I regret blowing it, 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:55.000 but I think it's not hoky. I think I've learned 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:59.160 amazing lessons. You know, I was. I was taken right 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:02.120 to the top and immediately like a dream come true, 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:05.560 like an angel took me there and didn't have time 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:08.720 to learn very many lessons on my way. I've learned 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:12.960 a lot of lessons now. And um, I didn't have 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:16.119 any respect for money. I thought it was ghost to 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:21.520 care about money, and I threw money around but everybody 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:25.680 dinner for about five years every where I went. Um, 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:28.119 I have a healthy respect for it now because I 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:31.880 know that you know, if you don't have anybody, you'll 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:35.280 meet a lot of kind people along the way, But 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:39.199 it's much it's much better to have the money to 0:20:39.240 --> 0:20:46.480 pay your own way. UM. So I think if I aim, 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:50.199 I'll hit the mark. I just have to decide what 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:56.840 I'm aiming at and not be um guilty about having 0:20:56.920 --> 0:21:03.000 success succeeding. And you know, I also try to not 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:07.199 be clear because I like a little bit of fuzzy thinking, 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:10.800 so that other things can take shape than just what 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:14.440 you you were going to plan. But at this age, 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:16.520 I think it's not the worst thing to start to 0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:21.199 have clear plans about how it will be, whether it 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:25.720 will be, how long it will be. So that's that's 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:28.080 what I'm living by the railroad tract. So that's what 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:31.000 it's like. Now, Okay, let's stay with the money just 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:35.760 one more time. Uh, do you still get royalties assuming 0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:39.400 there are people listening to your music from recordings from 0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:42.960 from publishing or did you sell those rights? I sold 0:21:43.040 --> 0:21:47.880 some of the rights. Um, but I do still get 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:51.199 royalties more than you. You'd be surprised you I do 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:53.720 okay on those roads. If I didn't have those rotaries, 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:57.960 I'd be shipped out of Look, and that happened because 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:01.359 as I was just going getting signed at Warner Brothers 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:02.879 are in the six month. I wrote about it a 0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:08.199 little in the book. But um, somebody said with it Ivan, 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:12.960 I don't know, said you have to have your own publishing, 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:17.679 don't sell your publishing. That's how you'll make all your money. 0:22:18.040 --> 0:22:21.120 And at that time, it's just it's a concept. Right, 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:25.040 where would that all that money come? Well, that was 0:22:25.080 --> 0:22:30.119 exactly the truth. The publishing. Um, you know, I sold 0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:33.679 it for not very much money. UM to pay up 0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:36.919 that I r S did. Um, but I kept some 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:41.800 of it. And and so I'm doing I'm okay, okay, 0:22:41.800 --> 0:22:45.960 tell me about that guilt over success. Well, there's so 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:51.119 many ways that it manifests. But my family, it's not 0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:54.600 that they were ne'er do wells, but they could. None 0:22:54.600 --> 0:22:59.159 of them seem to ever get a break. No, And 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:05.040 so when I first, you know, walked into the golden 0:23:05.200 --> 0:23:08.280 fields of the success that I had wanted to have, 0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:12.440 I felt really bad that none of them had anything. 0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:17.840 Nor my friends who were also talented musicians, but nobody 0:23:17.920 --> 0:23:22.200 seemed to be interested in in their songs. I tried 0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:25.920 very hard to bring sal Bernardi and his songs get 0:23:25.960 --> 0:23:28.280 Warner Brothers design, and they didn't want anything to do 0:23:28.320 --> 0:23:31.400 with them. When I see really successful people and their 0:23:31.480 --> 0:23:35.200 friends all getting signed, like how they do that? Because 0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:42.120 I get um, But it manifests really terribly. UM. It 0:23:42.160 --> 0:23:47.359 weighs besides self the obvious self destructive things, the subtle 0:23:47.400 --> 0:23:52.119 ways should trip yourself up. Now, maybe I'm just an asshole, 0:23:52.520 --> 0:23:57.240 but I rather think that, you know, sometimes i'd meet 0:23:57.320 --> 0:24:00.800 somebody who might have been an important person to be 0:24:01.359 --> 0:24:04.840 and I would be thirty minutes late to the meeting, 0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:11.000 or I meet somebody else and talk to them, like, 0:24:11.840 --> 0:24:18.760 you know, I remember meeting Um Peter Case and Victoria Williams. 0:24:19.080 --> 0:24:22.080 They were wanted to talk to me about producing a song, 0:24:22.400 --> 0:24:25.119 a sal Bernardi song, to speak of it, think of it. 0:24:25.240 --> 0:24:28.200 And I went into the meeting and I said, well, 0:24:28.359 --> 0:24:30.800 first of all, if we do this song, we have 0:24:30.920 --> 0:24:33.280 to do it this way. And then and I just 0:24:33.320 --> 0:24:38.040 went just like and they were just set to me listen. 0:24:39.040 --> 0:24:42.240 Victoria and I are very close friends, and I said 0:24:42.280 --> 0:24:44.720 to her a couple of years ago, I just I 0:24:44.840 --> 0:24:49.960 want to apologize for that meeting forty years ago. I'm 0:24:50.040 --> 0:24:55.520 so sorry that I I was so nervous and I 0:24:55.560 --> 0:24:57.800 just didn't know how to work with other people. I 0:24:57.840 --> 0:25:02.120 thought I had a vision and I I wasn't cut 0:25:02.119 --> 0:25:04.680 out to be a producer at that time. And she 0:25:04.680 --> 0:25:07.560 she just hugged me, you know. So. But anyway, there 0:25:07.600 --> 0:25:11.040 are a lot of ways you can alienate people and 0:25:11.119 --> 0:25:14.119 make sure that you don't go any further and even 0:25:14.320 --> 0:25:18.200 destroy yourself. There was always that feeling of they're gonna 0:25:18.320 --> 0:25:22.280 find out I'm here. I've read other people excuse me. 0:25:22.320 --> 0:25:25.879 I've seen other people say that about their careers, but 0:25:25.920 --> 0:25:28.480 that is a very real thing. You really feel like 0:25:28.600 --> 0:25:33.159 at any moment, some writers going to say she can't really. 0:25:33.800 --> 0:25:36.880 Of course they did, but she can't really sing and 0:25:36.960 --> 0:25:41.560 she's da and everybody's gonna go, oh, we believe you, 0:25:41.720 --> 0:25:44.600 and we're not even gonna go see your listen. So 0:25:46.119 --> 0:25:49.640 I think that that probably went up until the small 0:25:49.680 --> 0:25:54.879 gap where older age started and I went, that's fine, 0:25:55.320 --> 0:25:58.119 you guys do it everyone. As long as somebody books 0:25:58.119 --> 0:26:00.800 me somewhere and I can play, I'll show you what 0:26:00.920 --> 0:26:04.520 I am. And and you know, if you like, if 0:26:04.520 --> 0:26:07.240 you don't like it, I tell you the truth though 0:26:07.320 --> 0:26:09.640 that you know I said, I think I said when 0:26:09.640 --> 0:26:12.120 I sat down, I didn't care about that one guy anywhere, 0:26:12.160 --> 0:26:16.199 but he's always with me. I think that that one critic. 0:26:16.320 --> 0:26:20.400 I think he comes from the talking Heads camp. He's 0:26:20.440 --> 0:26:24.240 one of those shipsters in he comes from New York City, 0:26:24.840 --> 0:26:28.800 and everything he knows is, you know, there's certainly no 0:26:28.960 --> 0:26:36.880 room for emotion or flawed female. It's male, and it's 0:26:36.920 --> 0:26:40.240