1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised. Hi, this 3 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: is Danish Sports. 4 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 2: I am so excited to be here today for a 5 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 2: very special episode of Noble Blood. I'm joined by the 6 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 2: incredible actor, director, historian writer Peter Weller. Just an incredible figure, 7 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 2: an incredible life. You've done so much. We're going to 8 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 2: be talking about the Holy Roman Ember of Frederick the Second, 9 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 2: but before we dive in, I would just love to ask, 10 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 2: and I think my listeners would love to know what 11 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 2: was your transition like going from the acting world in 12 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 2: Hollywood to going back and studying Italian Renaissance art. 13 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 3: So I knew nothing about art. My mother tried to 14 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 3: introduce me to art. You know, I didn't really get it. 15 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 3: There's a wonderful actress. Most people know it was an 16 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 3: actress model. She's actually an art history design degree from Wellesley. 17 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 3: Was a Girl of the Year under Diana Breeland, was 18 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 3: a stylist for Vogue, a lot of other stuff. Ali McGraw. 19 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 3: Ali McGraw is one of the great beauties of the 20 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 3: world and also one of the smartest people I've ever known, 21 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:06,199 Speaker 3: and I did the movie with her, and I usually 22 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 3: don't get involved, but after the movie she asked me 23 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,680 Speaker 3: to go to see Sweeney Todd. When Sweeney Todd first 24 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 3: open and Angel Lansbury, I went to see it on 25 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 3: Saint Patrick's day. I'll never get it. And then when 26 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 3: he started up this affair, and then we turned into 27 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 3: a longtime friendship. It goes on and on and on on, 28 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 3: and she's to this day one of the first real 29 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 3: life thank in my new book, it's because just cannot 30 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,639 Speaker 3: game to University press about Renaissance Guide. But Ali's personally 31 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 3: took me by the hand, introduced me to Picasso Picasso's 32 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 3: GUERNI leave New York and go to Once Franco was 33 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 3: either passed away and Spain had a social democracy, Picasso 34 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 3: wanted this cornerstone piece of anti fascist art and horror 35 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 3: to go to Spain. And so there was a big 36 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 3: exhibition at MoMA and you couldn't get in, but if 37 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 3: you were Ali, you could get in. Because Allie's friends were. 38 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 3: People think that she ran with movie No No, she 39 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 3: ran with the literal that glitter out, that she ran 40 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 3: with Halston and Truemy, Capodi and Veland and the head 41 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 3: of moment, and they head of the met powerful powerful 42 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,079 Speaker 3: people in New York, both women and men. So she thinks, 43 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 3: by the hand threw me into Picasso, I come out 44 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 3: of five flowers at Picasso. I'm so But this bears 45 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 3: this embarrassment because the second person, other than Maria Connell, 46 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 3: who's a great friend and head of Fit in America 47 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 3: Folk Art Museum, one of the people got me to 48 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 3: the Renaissance. After this happened, I am at the National 49 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 3: Film Festival of Japan with the great Jean Moreau, one 50 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 3: of the greatest actors as ever, Mike met a Boy, 51 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 3: one of the great producers ever, producer Robo cop and 52 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 3: Victoria Sto. And if you haven't heard of him, or 53 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 3: your listeners haven't heard of him, then they have to 54 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 3: leave the show. Because Touroro is the first guy to 55 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 3: filter technicolor, which was against the law to be filtered. 56 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 3: If you see visions of Light, He's the first guy 57 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 3: that the experiment. Really you know, we just take tepic 58 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,679 Speaker 3: color for granted. And if you know Apocalypse Now or 59 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 3: Last Time in Paris or The Sheltering Sky or Last 60 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 3: Emperor or Dick Tracy, can I go on and on 61 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 3: and on. Vittorio is a very elite dude and was 62 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 3: versace all the time, and he had this VERSACEI scar 63 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 3: pond and not playing mister Horton because I know I 64 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 3: could talk about Sich Twombley and I could talk about 65 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 3: franket Dollar or whatever. So I say, vittoyo Keia Rito 66 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 3: Pettori too, or this is nineteen ninety two. I say, 67 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 3: who's your favorite painter nineteen ninety one and work Kyoto 68 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 3: and he goes uh. And even the Padua they see 69 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 3: Jolto in the very first one by one four frames 70 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 3: of narrative of light color, perception, dark emotion, negative space narrative. 71 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 3: I go, what this is, Jolto. I don't know who 72 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 3: you're talking about, man, And he takes his versace scar 73 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 3: and he flips it. Look, Francis Coppola said, Victoria Sore 74 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 3: is the only guy who spent two years in the 75 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 3: Philippines in a white suit, and he did, and that's Vittorio. 76 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 3: So he flips his scar, but he says, well, Peter, 77 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 3: we cannot talk about it, and he walks away. Then 78 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 3: I say, you get really pretentious, man, and he goes, no, 79 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 3: you're like the most Americans. You're pretentious, You're like so 80 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 3: many people. You can drop all these names and you 81 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 3: don't know Joto. You have no context, You have no context. 82 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 3: He's the one person that's indemnified in contemporary art. Karo 83 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 3: karof Father of Cubas, that talks about him, Precisions, that 84 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 3: talks about him, roth Coo talks about him, Picasto talks 85 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 3: about him. Rembrandt. I'm going I feel like a dummy. 86 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 3: And I got to sitting at church in the Capella Scrotin, 87 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 3: which is in my book now, and I find out 88 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 3: that that's the one piece, the one Nama piece of 89 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 3: art in the Western world that is like solarified as 90 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,840 Speaker 3: a cornerstone, and all the art that comes after it 91 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 3: in the Western world doesn't matter what you're talking about, 92 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 3: post Cubism, abstract Depressionism, piet Mondrian, whatever, They're all gonna 93 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 3: go back to Joto. They're all going to go back 94 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 3: to that. I called up Ali, I go, look, why 95 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 3: didn't you talk about Joto? She says, I did. You 96 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 3: had no interest in the Renaissance. I'll do the horny 97 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 3: Toy New York scene like every other idiot, you know, 98 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 3: I couldn't get you out of modern art. I couldn't 99 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 3: get you out of get there where art. So that's 100 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 3: how I started. I said, how do I start this? 101 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 3: They said, take a classe at Syracuse. Do ten weeks. 102 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 3: You go to Italy anyway, but you know nothing. But 103 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 3: I was the ugly American Dana. I'm telling you this 104 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 3: some benefit of your podcast. I was the guy who 105 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 3: went to Italy and hung out on the piazza smoking 106 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 3: a cigar, walking here and there. Yeah, looking at the thing, 107 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 3: looking at the coliseums, or but never get a deep 108 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,679 Speaker 3: dive into it. Pit me eight years before I started 109 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 3: to look at the art and now, yeah, PhD book 110 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 3: with Cambridge University Press. But it wasn't for those two 111 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 3: people shaming me into it, you know. It wasn't like 112 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 3: I just kind of went, oh wow, or I think 113 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 3: I'll do this. I'll flip with the second O and 114 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 3: stop and no, they gonna do this. Here's a good 115 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 3: segue here. One of the things I get fascinated in 116 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 3: when I get my master's degree in a very special 117 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 3: program at Syracuse University, whether it only take it by 118 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 3: four six people a year, is I get fascinated with 119 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 3: the Franciscan movement, which is, by the way, contemporary to 120 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 3: Frederick the second who we're going to talk about today, Owenstaufen. 121 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 3: So Francis of a SIZI. We've all heard of him. 122 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 2: Big saints, statues and gardens all the time. 123 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:23,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, big deal, Okay, connect joto. Francis is the guy 124 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 3: who preaches, never is a priest, never does a marriage, 125 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 3: never owns a mass. Francis and Francis man started walking 126 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 3: and talking. And you know, I was talking to a 127 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 3: guy from Oxford and I was speaking in a historiography 128 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 3: class PhD level at my alma mater, UCLA, and I say, 129 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 3: the influence of Francis is a quarter million people following 130 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 3: him within eight years without a fax machine. But here's 131 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 3: what he's say. He's saying, Look, man, walk the walk 132 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,359 Speaker 3: of the human Jesus. You don't have to do the 133 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 3: seven steps to happen. If you Hannah what's in front 134 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 3: of you with kindness, if you understand Christ trying to 135 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 3: preach kindness and the suffering with it, then you identify 136 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 3: with it. That's all you got to do, you know. 137 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 3: And people have been listening to this pulpit crack. You know, 138 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 3: God wins and you don't, man, You're the loser and 139 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 3: he's the winner. And all of a sudden, Francis comes on. 140 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 3: You ought to follow the dude, I mean yeah, I 141 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 3: to go in so anyway, when he dies, there's a 142 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 3: whole lot of people really want to follow this thing. 143 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 3: And then of course the hierarchy of the church gets 144 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 3: hold of his movement and says, no, no, no, we 145 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 3: got to build churches, make money, la la la, And 146 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 3: that's too bad, dog, right, Okay, this is right around 147 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 3: the time of Frederick. Frederick has got some towns, and 148 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 3: Francis has got some towns that sympathize with the Franciscans 149 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 3: and someone who sympathize with the pope and want to 150 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 3: make money. So dig this history of the world. Simply 151 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 3: Rome falls in Rome around four point fifty, they burn 152 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 3: the books. You've got nothing. You got tribes coming in. 153 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 3: We used to call them barbarians, oss, vandals, etc. They 154 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 3: come raiding in Italy. Why Italy? Why is everybody want Italy? 155 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,119 Speaker 3: Now that's my question to you. You can answer why 156 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 3: does all of Europe want Italy? 157 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 2: Let's see, is it because it's sort of a strategic 158 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 2: stronghold before the crusades strategic. 159 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 3: It's a finger that sticks into the Med, and the 160 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 3: Med is the only systemic of trade in the world. 161 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 3: So you got this thing that sticks into the Med 162 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 3: that nobody owns because roam's down. Hey man, let's go 163 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 3: conquer the dude, got it. Yeah, So by eight nine hundred, 164 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 3: Charlemagne takes over and unites the war, becomes Holy Woman 165 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 3: I heard night, and unites all these tribes. But there 166 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 3: are still serves in and Muslim groups that have been 167 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 3: in Sicily forever, and they gonna give it up. So 168 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 3: Charlottatne says, okay, all you tribes are under me now, 169 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 3: la la lah. The only one group that doesn't follow 170 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 3: him is Venice. I love it. That's an whole nother story. 171 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 3: I gotta talk about. Venice goes few man, we follow 172 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:08,079 Speaker 3: no emperor nowhere, man. We are Venetian, Venetian, Venetian. They know, 173 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 3: they go off and do their own thing. Yeah, and 174 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 3: everybody else's got to follow him, right, So anyway, Charle 175 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 3: Maine becomes that. Then his Holy Woman empire splits up. 176 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 3: The next thing you know, there's a crusade, and the 177 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 3: crusade is essentially by the time that late ten hundreds, 178 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 3: a pope goes Man, you know what, we're doing enough 179 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 3: business now with the Levant, which is that you got 180 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 3: to think of like your Joe blow out there thinking 181 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 3: of what Islam is now with reactionary fundamentalism as opposed 182 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 3: to moderate and some for Islam, with the Moors and 183 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 3: all the way into the Levant. That's Turkey and Judea 184 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 3: was the most sophisticated civilization of planet Earth. They gave 185 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 3: us numbers, they gave us star science, They brought back science, 186 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:54,839 Speaker 3: brought back medicine, brought back to everything. Whatever you may 187 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 3: think of any religion when it goes into its crusade stage, 188 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 3: Islam at that point was really sophisticated. Yeah, the Moors 189 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 3: are Islamic. They fought against the Arabs to keep Spain. 190 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 3: So you can't just group them all together and go, hey, 191 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:11,679 Speaker 3: this is all a bunch of Arabs. No, they're not 192 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 3: the tribal. So what happens is they got Baliland, and 193 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 3: the Western world wants it. They don't want a new 194 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 3: business with it, they want to own it. It's the 195 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,439 Speaker 3: place of Jesus and Moses and you know, Joshua or 196 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 3: whatever man. And so they send a crusade to send 197 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 3: another crusade, another than a crusade, right, okay, So then. 198 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 2: Just for a brief context for our listeners, we're talking 199 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 2: about the Holy Roman Emperor Frederic the Second, and this 200 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 2: is going to be early thirteenth century, so you know, 201 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 2: early twelve hundreds. 202 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 3: Right same time as Francis, by the. 203 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 2: Way, and Frederick the Second was involved in the sixth Crusades, right. 204 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the dicey deal because the first crusade they 205 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 3: get stuff, and this essentially ends the feudal system, you know, 206 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 3: because people get leave the land and go, hey man, 207 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 3: they need numbers as an account and so forth. The 208 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 3: lawyer's la la la lah. This goes to former university, 209 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 3: the former University of Bologna and so forth, and Uissia 210 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 3: Padua and they start account. Then the second crusade is 211 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 3: kind of dicey. Then the third crusade is a guy 212 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:17,959 Speaker 3: named Frederick Barbara Rosa. Okay, you know the Robin Hood lender, right, 213 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 3: Robin Hood of course. Okay, So Robin Hood is the servant. 214 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 3: Really he's looking for the good king to come back. 215 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 3: Remember his name, Richard the Lionheart Great, And what's wrong 216 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 3: with Richard why can't Richard come back? 217 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 2: Well, I think he was kidnapped by Germans at some point. 218 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. So who's the German guy that kidnapped 219 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 3: him and said, hey, you haven't recognized me as the 220 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 3: Holy Roman Emperor. And by the way, you owe me 221 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 3: some money because you want to this crusade and we 222 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 3: financed you someone to keep you here. So who's this guy? 223 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 2: Is it Frederick? 224 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 3: It's his dad, Henry the sixth, and his dad the 225 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 3: Holy Woman Emperor Charlemagne the first one, and there's several 226 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 3: and there's autos and so forth, and then it breaks down. 227 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 3: France says, we don't want to be ali Roman Empire. 228 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 3: We're gonna be France. Germany continues this idea of the 229 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 3: only Reman empire. So you got the starting a hunder 230 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 3: and by the time you get to eleven hundred and 231 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 3: the Third Crusade, the son of Frederick Barbarossa Redbeard. Okay, 232 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 3: I'm gonna back up a second, and this period we're 233 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 3: talking about the famous Normans that invaded England. Normans are 234 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 3: not just normandy knights anymore from you know, Norway or whatever. 235 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 3: They are sexually guns for hire, and they really take 236 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 3: over Sicily. The Norman inclusion of Sicily is amazing. And 237 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 3: these kings, these tancred Norman kings, Roger the first, Roger 238 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 3: the second, these are the guys that bring sovereignty to Sicily. 239 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 3: By what by tolerance? Here's unheard of you. You don't 240 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 3: do tolerance in the Middle Ages, man, You cut off 241 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 3: people's eyes and and so forth. But Roger the second 242 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 3: is the guy who's tolerant of Jews, He's tolerant of Muslims, 243 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 3: He's tolerant of like the princes who want their own 244 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 3: lands off. So this Norman guy right is swinging. Okay. 245 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 3: You know the German guys want like I said, remember 246 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 3: they want Italy. Okay, they can't get it. Why because 247 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 3: in between is a pope going. You can't have the 248 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,199 Speaker 3: bottom of the world and the top of the world. 249 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 3: You can't smash us together. Henry the sixth, the guy's 250 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 3: getting that bridge of the lineup, gets this great idea. 251 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,959 Speaker 3: You know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna marry Roger 252 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:44,719 Speaker 3: the Norman's daughter. Yes, Constance, I'm gonna marry her. And 253 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 3: that way the Queen of Sicily and me, the King 254 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 3: of Germany, will own the world together. 255 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 2: It's a pretty good plan. I can't imagine the rest 256 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 2: of the world is happy about it. 257 00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 3: But no they're not. First goes wait on, you know, 258 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 3: the parent's going, hey man, you know I gotta handle 259 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 3: this guy. Francis man, you know what are you doing now? 260 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 3: You squeeze me so longstone short. Any of the six 261 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 3: dies and they have a kid. And they have a 262 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 3: kid in a play called Jesse, which is near Ancona 263 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 3: in the eastern part of Italy, which is beautiful, and 264 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 3: this is Frederick, and Frederick is like taken to Sicily, 265 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 3: and Frederick is a kid. Immediately the infiltration of a 266 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 3: whole lot of Lombards does her up by Milan. French 267 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 3: warrior families come down. I want to take over seas. 268 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 3: Nobody's running Sicily now, man, the Rogers are gone. The 269 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 3: Constances can't really do it on our own. This kid 270 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 3: is amazingly ferociously. There's a legend that when a guy 271 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 3: named Mark Ward, one of the German thugs, came down 272 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 3: to take over Sicily, they looked for the kid to 273 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 3: kill him or to do what when he was hiding 274 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 3: out he's five years old, that he jumped on mark 275 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 3: Ward and started to scratch his face and so forth. 276 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 3: And that's Frederick. I mean, the legends about Frederick are 277 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 3: immense that what he goes on to be is this. 278 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 3: He goes on to first tell the pope, look, the 279 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 3: auto dynasty, the wealth. This is factions and it was 280 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 3: going to turn into guelfs and ghibelins, people who support 281 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 3: the both people' support. They're right, I'm jumping to. This 282 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 3: is about twelve hundreds Frederick's Morning, eleven ninety four, about 283 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 3: ten years after the crusade. Then your mother dies, his 284 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 3: mother tries to school it, his mother tries to give 285 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 3: him tolerance. This is a one off, dude. You gotta 286 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 3: learn stuff. You gotta learn languages. You got to learn Hebrew, 287 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 3: you gotta learn Arabic, you gotta learn Greek. You gotta 288 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 3: learn these people. Man, these people are around you, and 289 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 3: you better be talking their lingo if you want something 290 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 3: to do with it, because you can't just win by domination, 291 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 3: even though you gotta remember, despots do live and they are, 292 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 3: you know, caged. Yeah, And Frederick second is going to 293 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 3: spur a guy to debt, you know, and tell a 294 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 3: guy that you're gonna have your tongue cut out somewhere, 295 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 3: so they're not nice guys at the end of the day. 296 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 3: But in the realm of humanism, I'm reading about Franciscanism. 297 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 3: It's Syracuse, and I'm reading about how these certain cities 298 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 3: hid are the spiritual Franciscans. You wanted to just walk 299 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 3: the walk of Francis and not be part of the 300 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 3: money thing. And I'm reading about how certain parts of 301 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 3: the pope did not support these spiritual Franciscans, but the 302 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 3: only woman, Frederic the second, did so I get deep 303 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 3: dive into Frederic second, and I see that he's into science, 304 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 3: see that he's in the literature. I see that this 305 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 3: guy's obsessed with birds. I see obsessed with writing, that 306 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 3: he's a vegetarian, that he weighs the same amount when 307 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 3: he was sixty four years old and when he died 308 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 3: that he did when he was eighteen. I also see 309 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 3: that he went and got Germany back with the Pope's approval, 310 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 3: with a whole lot lesser men than Otto, by going 311 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 3: in and promising all these princes that I'm not going 312 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 3: to get your jam man, I'm just going to be 313 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 3: the Holy Roman Emperor. You guys can continue your act. 314 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 3: I don't want to dominate, you scold, you complain, you 315 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 3: guys guy pay me the veig, but you guys can groove. 316 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 3: And then within two months they support him. Then he's 317 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 3: ordered to go on a crusader. He tells the Pope, 318 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 3: I will I gotta go back and make sure Sicily's mine. 319 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 3: And he goes back to Sicily and he does the 320 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 3: same thing. He essentially wings Sicily through diplomacy. Can't Klowich 321 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 3: writes a book on the guy that lionizes and the 322 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 3: great David Atalafia, who is wrote I think the greatest 323 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 3: book on him, who is the mentor to my mentor. 324 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,160 Speaker 3: Pete Stacy at UCLA writes a book that like, say, 325 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 3: wait a minute, you gotta put Frederic the Second because 326 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 3: by now Beta everyone has hasted Frederic the Second on 327 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 3: is like something else. But it's like Cyrus the Great 328 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,239 Speaker 3: with the freedom of the Jews from Babylon and the 329 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 3: Cyrus Cylinder. The Cyrus Cylindator says, you know, hey, all 330 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 3: you Jews can go back from Babylon and live in 331 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 3: your home, because I write a vision from Zora's division 332 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 3: that people want to live on the turf of their homeland. 333 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 3: Nobody did this in twenty six PC. They killed you 334 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 3: or dispersed you or enslaved you. Yeah, but he did 335 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 3: it once in a while as a dude or a 336 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 3: woman who goes, you know what, I see that the 337 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 3: freedom of people is better than the domination of people. 338 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 3: I can allowing people liberties. The way to control your 339 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 3: sheep is give him a large pasture. And I think 340 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 3: that is essentially what Frederick is famous for. And Frederick, 341 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 3: by the way, goes on a crusade and he wins 342 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 3: territory by diplomacy, and it pisss off the Pope. They say, 343 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 3: we know what diplomacy, man, we want like dominance, and 344 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 3: he goes, yeah, I ain't gonna do that. Then he 345 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 3: comes back and you know, he's considered the Holy King 346 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 3: of Jerusalem and so forth, and Pope hates that and 347 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 3: he gets into an antagonistic thing. Well, but it starts 348 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 3: the very first state endowed university in Naples, which is 349 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,120 Speaker 3: called it called the University toa Frederica Secundo named after him. 350 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 3: He does so many things to essentially trans formed the 351 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 3: idea of and ab lafia. This guy ropes him in yeah, 352 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 3: and essentially says that Frederick you cannot divorce Frederick from 353 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 3: essentially the guy who was in a clash with Catholicism, 354 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 3: as almost all emperors were, you know, until eighteen hundred. 355 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 3: Cannot take him out of the context though, the dude 356 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 3: who wanted to be acknowledged as you know, the dude 357 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 3: of it all. But the acknowledgment aside, yeah, which everybody wanted. 358 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 3: How he went about it in so many ways, was 359 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 3: so deferential to human rights in many ways, you know. 360 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 3: And people say, yeah, okay, man, okay, look he took 361 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 3: all the Muslims in Sicily. You didn't tell him he 362 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 3: gave him a hundred thousand acres or ten thousand acres 363 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 3: in Apulia. 364 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 2: But if I am correct, he does get excommunicated four times. Yes, 365 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 2: they forgive him. They bring him back, they say, just kidding. 366 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 3: You know, how they bring you back because he's diplomatic. Yeah, 367 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 3: he's diplomatic. What is And he's diplomatic what the noise is. Ironically, 368 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,360 Speaker 3: the guy that really hates him is Gregory than Knight, 369 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 3: and Gregory the Knight is Ugolino, the guy who championed 370 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 3: Francis a Vesisi. He's the guy from Umbria who went 371 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 3: with Francis to Innocent the third and today man. The 372 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 3: guy's preaching, but he's not a priest. I gotta think anything, 373 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 3: why I don't kill him? Let him walk around. And 374 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 3: that's the guy who later becomes the pope who hates 375 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 3: veteran and he's a very humanist poet, Ugolino, very humanist, 376 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 3: but he just can't take it that Frederick is not 377 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 3: bowing to him. 378 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 2: I think of Frederick the Second as sort of the 379 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 2: quintessential renaissance man. You know, this is some intolerant spoke, 380 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 2: multiple languages, a mathematician, a poet, a composer. Obviously, when 381 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 2: he's excommune indicated multiple times by the Pope, we're going 382 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,400 Speaker 2: to get some sources vilifying him, these pro papal chronicles. 383 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 2: How would you define his legacy looking at all of 384 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,719 Speaker 2: those sources and sort of weighing it all together. 385 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 3: You know, I want to be David Abulafia and say, 386 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 3: wait a minute, let's put the rains on theticism. You know, 387 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 3: the mystic legend of this guy. Yeah, he did kill people. 388 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 3: He did jill his best friend. 389 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 2: You know, it's patrision, but it was a brutal time. 390 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 3: That's right. You can't take it out of context. But 391 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 3: he did also give people right to civil courts, over 392 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 3: land distributions or what. I'm thinking that he is the forerunner. 393 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 3: I mean, in spite of the fact that doctor Abolafia 394 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 3: wants to rain him in. I finished reading the Abelavia's 395 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 3: book and I go, you know what, man, the guy 396 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 3: is still not like anybody else. And you acknowledge him 397 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 3: so many times in there. Well, come on, thinking three 398 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 3: thousand people into Germany, I guess an army of almost 399 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 3: like you know, eight thousand dudes, and like talking your 400 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 3: way diplomacy, diplomatically winning that whole thing back and doing 401 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 3: the same thing at Sicily. This is gifted stuff. This 402 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 3: is the art of rap I think that's his great legacy. 403 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 3: His great legacy is diplomacy, I think. And one can 404 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 3: bring up all of the footnotes about brutality, but like 405 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 3: you said, it's the time you're living in and somebody 406 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 3: tries to kill you, you kill them. That's the way 407 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 3: it goes. Well. 408 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 2: I do have one question about Frederick's legacy. It looks 409 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 2: like after he dies we're going to get the Great 410 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 2: interregnum with the Holy Roman Emperor. There's not going to 411 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 2: be a clear succession after him. Why is that. 412 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 3: I don't think that MANFREDI or Manfred or Conrad Conridine grandson, 413 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 3: I don't think they had the talent. Yeah, if you're 414 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 3: fatherless and then you're raised by this incredible mother who 415 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:59,479 Speaker 3: is like running a show and instills the temperance in 416 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 3: you that you're gonna live through, that's inured. I mean, 417 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 3: that's almost something that he can't be taught. 418 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 2: Hmm. 419 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 3: So his jam, which is speaking and coming to terms 420 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 3: and let's meet, let's do this, let's do that. It's 421 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 3: unique to him and when he goes, I don't think 422 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 3: that he's taught that to his kids or his great kids. 423 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 3: Beyonka his lover. Basically they say he married who ivn 424 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 3: Avolafia acknowledges was the one sort of passion in his life. 425 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 3: He probably did marry her before he died, but they 426 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 3: never spent time with the kid. I got to go, 427 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 3: you know this is right, this is wrong. Here's what 428 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 3: you do. You go here, you do that. I don't 429 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 3: know Frederick had those people, the school, these kids. I 430 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 3: don't think his kids knew international law. I don't think 431 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 3: he spoke Brive languages. I'm sorry. I don't think they 432 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 3: like travel with him in all his places. His one kid, Henry, 433 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 3: tried to revolt against him. He had to take the 434 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 3: guy down he had and imprison his own kid in Germany. 435 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 2: So he's a great holy Roman emperor, not a great. 436 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 3: Father, not a great dad. 437 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 2: No, well, nobody's perfect. 438 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 3: I know, you know what, I gotta remember that my 439 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 3: kid and I with the POMPEII. My son is the 440 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,439 Speaker 3: attention span of all thirteen year old which is about, 441 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 3: you know, six feet until it gets too hot or 442 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 3: the phones are gone or whatever. Hey, he's in POMPEII. 443 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 3: He said, hey, Dad, over here, look over here, this 444 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 3: is where they had the sewage pipes. Now I've done 445 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 3: historiography on POMPEII. I had to present on POMPEII. I 446 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 3: had to take tours, not to tours, but school groups 447 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 3: do pompe And I've never seen these sewage pipes. And 448 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 3: I said, how did you do that? He says, I 449 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 3: found it a TikTok. He found the friggin sewage pipes 450 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 3: in POMPEII on TikTok. And then he's got the scholar 451 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 3: Antonio and shows us. I almost started crying. Man, I 452 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 3: was so impressed with him. I was impressed that he 453 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 3: was showing me something. And two days ago, two scholars 454 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 3: giving up to me and they were talking about the 455 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 3: sewage systems in Roma. Said, were they essentially discovered by pass? Yeah? 456 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,879 Speaker 3: She was just vompe have taught us everything. So my 457 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 3: kid taught me about them. What do you mean your 458 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 3: kid talking about it? I said, about two weeks ago, 459 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 3: my kid on TikTok find out where the sewage systems 460 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 3: were in POMPEII and were showing me. And these guys 461 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 3: are like your thirteen year old kid on TikTok was 462 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 3: showing you where the sewage systems or I said, yeah, 463 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 3: and it's just stopped us dead data, so good dead 464 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 3: good leader. I don't know. 465 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 2: I was in POMPEII a few years ago, and the 466 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 2: fun fact about the plumbing that stuck with me. Maybe 467 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 2: the listeners don't know, maybe it's incredibly obvious, but the 468 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 2: elemental symbol for lead is peeb, and that comes from 469 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 2: the Latin word for plumbing plumb them peeb because their 470 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 2: pipes were lead, their plumbing was lead. Who knew? 471 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 3: Did somebody teach you that? 472 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 2: I think our tour guide said that it must have 473 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 2: been in the back of my mind. When I studied 474 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 2: chemistry in college, I. 475 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 3: Only learned PB meaning lead in Rome, with the pipes 476 00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 3: in Rome, you know, coming out of places like the 477 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 3: Colise and down with the eastrect channels of the history channel. 478 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 3: Learners that I wasn't walking around Pompeii with a thirteen 479 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 3: year old. But that's great that you know that it 480 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 3: isn't Pompeii extraordinary. 481 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 2: I will say it was one of the historical sites 482 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 2: that truly floored me, that exceeded all expectations for me. 483 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 3: You have to go back. I've been twenty nine times now, 484 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 3: but look twenty nine times, and now I find out 485 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 3: for my kid where the plumbing is. 486 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 2: Doctor Peter Weller with your brand new book Leon Batista 487 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 2: Alberti in Exile by Peter Weller. 488 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 3: And the subtitle is Tracing the Path. 489 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 2: Too, the first modern book on painting. 490 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 3: Yes, and in it are a ton of photographs and 491 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 3: images and so forth. Not to mention at the beginning 492 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 3: of it is Joto in the Capella Scravegni that Victorios 493 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 3: Durero told me that I was an idiot because I 494 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 3: hadn't seen it, which his figures hugely in this thing. 495 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 3: And I just want to say this to wrap this up, 496 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 3: is that you know, the beginning of this is my 497 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 3: dissertation and also acknowledgement in this book and in the 498 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 3: dissertation one page begins with this book owes the debt 499 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 3: of inspiration to Alice McGraw, Maria Connelliot of the Brooklyn Academy, 500 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,360 Speaker 3: and cinematographer Victoria Stiro. 501 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 2: That's amazing this. 502 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,119 Speaker 3: Book really quickly, just I'll tell you what is a 503 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 3: very famous Renaissance guys that probably Math. He's an architect writer, 504 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 3: he's like the he's like the fallout of Frederick the Second. 505 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,360 Speaker 3: He's everything that Frederick the Second wanted to be. Eddie 506 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 3: Gorisseecond also is an amazing architect. You got to go 507 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 3: to right northern Bari and see his castle, which is 508 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 3: a circle which steps only this big, so you can 509 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 3: actually run up them, you know, instead of these big 510 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 3: clonky deals. You can run up and down them, so 511 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 3: that knights can run with armor and so forth. Right 512 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 3: and these eight chaurrets around it. It's astounding piece of 513 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 3: architecture that he supervised himself. So look in the notice 514 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 3: of Frederick the Second wanting to be this polymath, which 515 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 3: is what he wants us A language guy, scientist, guy, 516 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 3: a berg guy, you know, biologist, architect, everything you've got. 517 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 3: This dude here, Leon Butt STALBERTI which I'm sure who am? 518 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 3: I'm sure knew everything at Athletic the second it's meant. 519 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 3: The second is like a one off. And he they 520 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 3: say that somebody scholars said in the twenty century, oh 521 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 3: you know what. His family was exiled and then he 522 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 3: came to Florence and in eight months wrote the first 523 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 3: Martyn book on painting in tripart at Latin Ciceronian ideas. 524 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 3: And I'm asking when I was getting master, I'm asking 525 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 3: all these holy to dots, I said, what a great Elaine. 526 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 3: I said, I can't buy it that this guy just 527 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 3: came to Florence and in eight months wrote this astounding 528 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 3: book on Lion's points light art of it. They said, 529 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 3: yeah you did. And one guy rab Hadfield, his great scholar, 530 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 3: said no, everybody knows. He came from Cadua. He came 531 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 3: from Joe too, he came from Bologna, he came through 532 00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 3: all this stuff. I said, wh do you teach that? 533 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 3: I said, because Florence is the apex of all things Renaissance, 534 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 3: which is horseshit. It's is horseshit. You know, Florence is 535 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 3: the apex of all things Renaissance, but it's not the 536 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 3: seed of all things Renaissance. 537 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 2: Doctor Peter Weller, this has been such a joy. Next 538 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 2: time I'm into Italy, I want you to be my 539 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 2: tour guide. This was extraordinary. 540 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 3: All you got to do is let us know when 541 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 3: you're going, because even if we can't be there with you, 542 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 3: we can turn you on, save you a lot of 543 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 3: time and money and saving you essentially a whole lot 544 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 3: of energy that you don't need to spend. 545 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 2: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much. This is doctor Weller, 546 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 2: author of Leon batistal Bertie in Exile. Thank you so 547 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 2: much for joining us. This is such a pleasure. 548 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 3: Okay, listen, I want the last thing. I just wanted 549 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 3: to say this, Frederick Second by David Abolafia is really 550 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 3: the book to read. On the thing, there's a lot 551 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 3: of great books, but this is the book that really 552 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 3: takes you, walks you through the good and the bad 553 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 3: news about Frederick the Second, and by the way, the 554 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 3: wonder what the bad news is about Frederick Second? You 555 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 3: come away thinking, hey, once in a while, there's a hero. 556 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 2: Absolutely, thank you so much. Noble Blood is a production 557 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 2: of iHeart Radio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Mankey. 558 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 2: Noble Blood is hosted by me Dana Schwartz, with additional 559 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 2: writing and research by Hannah Johnston, Hannahswick, Courtney Sender, Amy 560 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 2: Hit and Julia Melaney. The show is edited and produced 561 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:35,719 Speaker 2: by Jesse Funk, with supervising producer rima il KLi and 562 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 2: executive producers Aaron Manke, Trevor Young, and Matt Frederick. For 563 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 2: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 564 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.