WEBVTT - Ep. 01: West of Everything

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<v Speaker 1>Following the collapse of the Grand Chaco and Empire, refugees

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<v Speaker 1>founded eight thriving new towns along the Galisteo River of

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<v Speaker 1>New Mexico, but ultimately found it difficult to sustain an

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<v Speaker 1>arid climate civilization across the next five hundred years. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>Dan Flores and this is the American West, brought to

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<v Speaker 1>you by Velvet Buck, Crafted for those who live off

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<v Speaker 1>the beaten path, where the hunt meets the harvest, and

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<v Speaker 1>every glass tells a story. Enjoy responsibly, West of Everything.

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<v Speaker 1>Thinking of a podcast about the American West and my

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<v Speaker 1>own take on its history has had me trying to

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<v Speaker 1>understand recently why the West resonates with us the way

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<v Speaker 1>it does. Apologies to New England, New York, the South,

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<v Speaker 1>the Midwest, but the West seems to fascinate the world

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<v Speaker 1>in a way no other American region can. Why are

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<v Speaker 1>their television channels devoted twenty four to seven to playing

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<v Speaker 1>seventy five year old Western movies, so a John Wayne

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<v Speaker 1>fix is available at just about any sleepless three am.

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<v Speaker 1>Why does a contemporary soap opera Western like Yellowstone succeed

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<v Speaker 1>with so many people? Why do Germans dress up and

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<v Speaker 1>play act being residents of the West on their vacation

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<v Speaker 1>weekends in European forest. How does back at the Ranch

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<v Speaker 1>Bootstore in Santa Fe sell five thousand dollars cowboy boots

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<v Speaker 1>that will never see a stirrup? Why is there a

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<v Speaker 1>cowboy poets gathering in Nevada every winter? Why a gene

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<v Speaker 1>Autrey Museum in la a Buffalo Bill Historical Museum in Cody,

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<v Speaker 1>a National Western Heritage Center in Oklahoma City?

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<v Speaker 2>And why?

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe this is the most serious question here, does the

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<v Speaker 1>phrase just like the Wild West cause all of us

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<v Speaker 1>to imagine entire freedom of action, a whole lack of restraint,

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<v Speaker 1>a free for all. Nobody is regulating all that reverence

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<v Speaker 1>and fascination for the West happens for good reason, because

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<v Speaker 1>of its sunshine and the public lands that provide remarkable

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<v Speaker 1>access to the surrounding landscape. The West is a great

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<v Speaker 1>place to live in the present, but as we all know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's the past of the West that's the key to

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<v Speaker 1>its magic. Those of us who live in the West

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<v Speaker 1>may love various aspects of the modern world out the door,

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<v Speaker 1>but we all absolutely adore the old West, the frontier.

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<v Speaker 1>We've absorbed it by watching films by john Ford and

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<v Speaker 1>Quentin Tarantino, reading novels by Louis Lamore and Cormac McCarthy,

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<v Speaker 1>and histories by Steven Ambrose and Hampton Sides. Of course,

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<v Speaker 1>there are many versions of the West, and all of

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<v Speaker 1>us have a personal preference for our favorite version. Clearly,

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<v Speaker 1>for john Ford or Quentin Tarantino, it's the Cowboy West

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<v Speaker 1>of so many hundreds of Western movies.

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<v Speaker 2>For others, it's the West.

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<v Speaker 1>Of town building and Wyatt Earp's or Marshall Dillon's imposition

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<v Speaker 1>of law and order, or of settlers versus railroads are

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<v Speaker 1>the gunfighter stories that Tarantino obviously also loves and loves

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<v Speaker 1>to invert. And of course there's the Indian Wars West

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<v Speaker 1>of a few hundred movies and a few thousand paintings.

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<v Speaker 1>But as a modern Westerner, a writer and historian who

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<v Speaker 1>is interested most in the West, remarkable landscapes and animals,

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<v Speaker 1>the West that does it for me is one most

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<v Speaker 1>people may not think of as iconic. I'm most drawn

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<v Speaker 1>to what Western artist Charlie Russell, in one of his

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<v Speaker 1>magnificent paintings, called when the Land belonged to God? For me,

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<v Speaker 1>the West that speaks to my deepest soul is the

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<v Speaker 1>West either side of Lewis and Clark. How the kind

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<v Speaker 1>of natural West they saw came to be and lasted

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<v Speaker 1>for so long? Plus what has happened to that version

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<v Speaker 1>of the West in the centuries since Lewis and Clark

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<v Speaker 1>saw it. That's the West I try to understand. To me,

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<v Speaker 1>that's the true West, a natural West, one that's west

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<v Speaker 1>of everything else. In part, my West is a kind

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<v Speaker 1>of a first contact West, a theme of much science

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<v Speaker 1>fiction and fascination with exploring places like Mars in the

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<v Speaker 1>next few decades. It's about travel to strange places, new

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<v Speaker 1>country and new animals, the meeting place of an exotic,

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<v Speaker 1>ancient world and modernity. Come to think of it, the

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<v Speaker 1>natural West is not only our future on Mars, it's

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<v Speaker 1>also our deep past. When modern humans left Africa more

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<v Speaker 1>than fi fifty thousand years ago and began to explore

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<v Speaker 1>the rest of the Earth, America's West, in many ways,

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<v Speaker 1>was a last earthly experience of that first contact moment

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<v Speaker 1>in human history when new people's first meet. Everybody experiences

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<v Speaker 1>first contact, but usually only one side sees the natural

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<v Speaker 1>world as new and exotic, a new world. The resident

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<v Speaker 1>people tend to think invasion, and so it is. Yet

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<v Speaker 1>all of us have ancestors who bequeathed us more than

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<v Speaker 1>twenty thousand years of first contact experiences in North America.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think I come by a fascination for stories

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<v Speaker 1>like this naturally, and of.

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<v Speaker 2>Course so do you.

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<v Speaker 1>Those of us who are in love with the natural

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<v Speaker 1>West are usually attracted to the world of native people,

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<v Speaker 1>to natural landscapes, and to wild animals. Being intrigued by

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<v Speaker 1>the native West is self evidently at the core of

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<v Speaker 1>Western fascination, judging by the volume and quality of Western

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<v Speaker 1>landscape art and the way the Western landscape becomes a

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<v Speaker 1>character in so many films. Judging by the number of

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<v Speaker 1>Crown Jewel national parks in the West, the same can

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<v Speaker 1>be said of the Western landscape. But let's say at

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<v Speaker 1>the outset. The West I'm talking about is not synonymous

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<v Speaker 1>with the frontier.

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<v Speaker 2>When the Old World came to North America.

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<v Speaker 1>Every place on the continent had a frontier, a meeting

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<v Speaker 1>point between what existed and what was coming. But the

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<v Speaker 1>natural West of which I speak is not defined by

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<v Speaker 1>a moment in time a frontier. It's a place, a

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<v Speaker 1>region of plains, mountains, and deserts, on the sunset side

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<v Speaker 1>of the Mississippi River. The timeframe of the natural West

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<v Speaker 1>is not just its frontier stage. The story of this

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<v Speaker 1>West is much more ancient, and it also takes place

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<v Speaker 1>more recently than the frontier. Because the past does not

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<v Speaker 1>remain in the past, but affects us in our own time.

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<v Speaker 1>The story of the West continues beyond the frontier and

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<v Speaker 1>into the twenty first century. Many of the Western stories

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<v Speaker 1>I've written about and will tell in this podcast are

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<v Speaker 1>the stories of the West's wildlife, very much an ignored

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<v Speaker 1>topic in the West and elsewhere. The cow and the sheep,

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<v Speaker 1>and to a certain extent, even the saddled horse, are

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<v Speaker 1>the animals we associate with the West of trail driving, ranching,

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<v Speaker 1>town building, But I have to observe that not one

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<v Speaker 1>of them appears in Charlie Russell's When the Land Belonged

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<v Speaker 1>to God. Russell's timeless scene of a bison herd flanked

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<v Speaker 1>by gray wolves pouring over a divide in a landscape

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<v Speaker 1>we old worlders would one day call Montana implied that

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<v Speaker 1>the divine world in the West was a Native America.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's start there, but not necessarily at its beginning.

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<v Speaker 1>At least not yet. Let's commence our exploration of the

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<v Speaker 1>natural West slightly later in time. We'll return to beginnings

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<v Speaker 1>in the next episodes with a story that makes the

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<v Speaker 1>point that the West is not new, but a very

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<v Speaker 1>old place. This story stretches our imaginations, suggests how central

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<v Speaker 1>and fragile Western ecologies have always been to human life here,

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<v Speaker 1>and illustrates the longevity of the human experience in a

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<v Speaker 1>country where reflexively still thinking of as the newest part

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<v Speaker 1>of America. On a sun drenched November afternoon, I sit

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<v Speaker 1>in t shirt and shorts a few feet from the

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<v Speaker 1>edge of a canyon rimrock, looking through four hundred feet

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<v Speaker 1>of transparent desert air on a thousand year old city.

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<v Speaker 1>My wife Sarah is pulling a bottle of water from

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<v Speaker 1>her pack. A few feet away. Various friends are scattered

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<v Speaker 1>along rock cairn marked trails through the uplands behind us,

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<v Speaker 1>where the faint indentation of ancient highways four hundred miles

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<v Speaker 1>of them, extend to horizons miles distant. The whole country

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<v Speaker 1>sagebrush uplands, the canyon floor, the enclosing rimrocks, and the

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<v Speaker 1>ruins with odd names that lie in every direction below

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<v Speaker 1>is a uniform tannish brown, the color of dust or

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<v Speaker 1>perhaps the color of abandonment. During the time of the

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<v Speaker 1>Crusades in Europe, this spot and another on the east

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<v Speaker 1>bank of the Mississippi River just across from today Saint Louis,

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<v Speaker 1>held the two largest cities in North America, both religious centers,

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<v Speaker 1>with a ceremonial effigy mound of lizards and serpents, and

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<v Speaker 1>a stone hinge like circle of upright timbers planted to

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<v Speaker 1>mark out soices and equinoxes.

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<v Speaker 2>The city in the Eastern Woods today we call it Kahokia.

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<v Speaker 1>Probably held a fairly permanent population of thirty thousand people,

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<v Speaker 1>larger than London at that time. I first saw Kahokia

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<v Speaker 1>in the early nineteen nineties with a girlfriend who had

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<v Speaker 1>Missouri roots and insisted we visit the place. I'd seen mounds,

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<v Speaker 1>but never anything on the scale of Monks Mound towering

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<v Speaker 1>up out of the American bottoms like an earth and

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<v Speaker 1>Chichenitsan pyramid. After three hundred years of urban life, an

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<v Speaker 1>earthquake mostly destroyed Kahokia City, but not before its population

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<v Speaker 1>had gone through twenty thousand trees and almost all the

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<v Speaker 1>wildlife for scores of miles around. As for the city

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<v Speaker 1>whose ruins lay below us now either side of ten

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<v Speaker 1>centuries ago. From eight hundred AD to eleven forty AD,

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<v Speaker 1>it was the Vatican of the American Desert. We call

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<v Speaker 1>it Chaco, and it's another of our UNESCO World Heritage Sites.

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<v Speaker 1>Chaco was the closest Native America ever got to an

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<v Speaker 1>empire like those of the Aztecs, Mayans, or Incas. But

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<v Speaker 1>this was not an empire of warrior armies and conquered provinces.

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<v Speaker 1>It was an empire of priests who organized many thousands

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<v Speaker 1>of scattered farming hamlets across fifty thousand square miles of

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<v Speaker 1>today's four corners into an economic and religious network. No

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<v Speaker 1>European principality of the age matched it. What the priest's

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<v Speaker 1>promised was direct intervention with the deities who controlled rain,

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<v Speaker 1>crops and animals, those grand imponderables whose presence made life

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<v Speaker 1>good and whose absence ruined it. The city of Chaco

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<v Speaker 1>housed the priests, their families, and a resident population of thousands.

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<v Speaker 1>It stored and distributed surplus crops. Then at solstices and

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<v Speaker 1>other special times of year, it hosted grand ceremonies, to

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<v Speaker 1>which the outlying residents made holy pilgrimages. At those times,

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<v Speaker 1>Choco gathered a population of some forty thousand. Looking down

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<v Speaker 1>now on its buildings and avenues, one suspects both the

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<v Speaker 1>ceremonies and the nightlife must have been epic. Choco America

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<v Speaker 1>almost seems foreign in the modern United States, as if

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<v Speaker 1>lifted from the Middle East. The agricultural revolution arrived in

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<v Speaker 1>this region thirteen hundred years before the city existed, and

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<v Speaker 1>pollen studies indicate this development produced two immediate environmental effects.

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<v Speaker 1>Human populations skyrocketed, and crops that needed to be boiled

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<v Speaker 1>before you could eat them meant that daily cooking fires

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<v Speaker 1>soon reduced a robust pinions juniper woodland to desert. This

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<v Speaker 1>became a world in need of priests who could intervene

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<v Speaker 1>with the gods. Sitting and admiring the sprawling, hemispheric architecture

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<v Speaker 1>of Chaco's largest structure, Pueblo Benito, as its lines and

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<v Speaker 1>shadows shimmer in the afternoon sun, I know this is

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<v Speaker 1>a place that reveals much about humanity. Sarah passes the

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<v Speaker 1>water bottle over to me, and reading my mind, sums

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<v Speaker 1>it up.

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<v Speaker 2>It wasn't until the eighteen eighties that anyone built a

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<v Speaker 2>larger building than that in America. In its time, the

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<v Speaker 2>city lasted longer than Washington, d C. Has so far.

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<v Speaker 1>Chaco and its satellite hamlets survive, in fact, for three

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<v Speaker 1>hundred and forty years. The shorthand version of its collapse

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<v Speaker 1>is that it all ended with a series of droughts

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<v Speaker 1>across the Southwest, and that's true, but the many archaeologists

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<v Speaker 1>who have interpreted Chaco know that much more happened here.

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<v Speaker 1>When the rain stopped coming, the farmers seemed to act abruptly,

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<v Speaker 1>dropping their digging sticks in the fields, turning their backs

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<v Speaker 1>on the grand religious gatherings at Chaco, and relocating.

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<v Speaker 2>Across the southwest.

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<v Speaker 1>Some went north to what we now call Mesa Verdi's

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<v Speaker 1>Cliff Palace in present Colorado. Most of the people who

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<v Speaker 1>abandoned the Chaco and world congregated along the Upper Rio Grand,

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<v Speaker 1>eventually founding towns still home to their descendants, the Pueblo peoples,

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<v Speaker 1>famous for their apartment like villages, geometrically painted pottery, and

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<v Speaker 1>turquoise jewelry. Why did Choco collapse in what sounds.

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<v Speaker 2>Like a fit of peak.

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<v Speaker 1>The evidence and ultimately the response of the pueblos afterwards

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<v Speaker 1>points to a crisis we should recognize. Down there in

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<v Speaker 1>Pueblo Bonito, a single room out of six hundred and

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<v Speaker 1>fifty rooms yielded the remains of fourteen people whose funerary

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<v Speaker 1>items indicated they represented Chaco's religious and political elites. In

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<v Speaker 1>the room were flutes, ceremonial staffs, thousands of pieces of

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<v Speaker 1>turquoise jewelry, cont shell trumpets from America's west coast, the

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<v Speaker 1>remains of macaw parrots from the tropics, The oldest burial

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<v Speaker 1>dated to eight hundred a d. And the last from

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<v Speaker 1>Choco's abandonment. So those fourteen span the entire life of

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<v Speaker 1>the city, and.

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<v Speaker 2>Not just that.

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<v Speaker 1>The genetics of nine of the fourteen showed them to

0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:59.920
<v Speaker 1>be descended from the same matrilineal line from a woman

0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:06.000
<v Speaker 1>who evidently had been there at Chaco's founding. Disparities in

0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:09.600
<v Speaker 1>wealth and quality of life, along with the resentments they produce,

0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:14.440
<v Speaker 1>are familiar to modern Americans. Isotope comparisons of the bones

0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:17.600
<v Speaker 1>of the priestly class in Choco's great houses with those

0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:21.600
<v Speaker 1>of farmers from the villages indicates that the elites consumed

0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:25.400
<v Speaker 1>far more protein from the meat of deer and prong horns.

0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.520
<v Speaker 1>They were better fed, grew almost two inches taller, suffered

0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:32.920
<v Speaker 1>less from disease, had three times the survival rate for

0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:37.720
<v Speaker 1>children under five, and lived longer. They were also conspicuous

0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:42.440
<v Speaker 1>consumers of high status goods, from beautiful pots to copper bells,

0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:46.960
<v Speaker 1>from turquoise jewelry to parrots. In the late eighteen hundreds,

0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:51.160
<v Speaker 1>an early archaeologist working in Chaco shipped more than seventy

0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:55.800
<v Speaker 1>thousand high status items just from Pueblo Benito to the

0:15:55.840 --> 0:16:00.160
<v Speaker 1>American Museum of Natural History. The farming class suffered this

0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:02.800
<v Speaker 1>gap between rich and poor as long as the elites

0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:06.040
<v Speaker 1>delivered on their promise to make it rain. But when

0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:09.280
<v Speaker 1>drought came and the priests were powerless to stop it,

0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:13.000
<v Speaker 1>the lower classes attacked and killed many in the upper class.

0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:19.320
<v Speaker 1>They also embraced a new belief, the Kachina religion. By

0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:23.760
<v Speaker 1>the year eleven sixty, massive three story public buildings like

0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:27.760
<v Speaker 1>Chetro Kettle, a four hundred room great house in Chako

0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:33.080
<v Speaker 1>that was built with fifty million sandstone blocks, twenty six

0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:37.360
<v Speaker 1>thousand timbers and extended for four hundred and fifty feet

0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:42.520
<v Speaker 1>beneath a canyon wall, stood completely abandoned as for animal

0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:46.160
<v Speaker 1>life in the Chacoan region. Diet studies in the collapses

0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:50.160
<v Speaker 1>aftermath implied that rabbits and rodents were almost the only

0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:54.560
<v Speaker 1>huntable animals left. Their need for protein perhaps explains why

0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:57.560
<v Speaker 1>some of the new villages were founded close to the

0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:09.440
<v Speaker 1>bison planes. One March afternoon in the early two thousands,

0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:12.680
<v Speaker 1>I opened the passenger door of a pickup, stretched out

0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:15.119
<v Speaker 1>a hiking boot to the ground, and had one of

0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:20.840
<v Speaker 1>those small steps for man moments until I exited that

0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:24.000
<v Speaker 1>pickup and began to walk on a surface that spoke,

0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:27.800
<v Speaker 1>it crunched, it crinkled. I'd never had the kind of

0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:31.960
<v Speaker 1>visceral understanding of America's ancient past I was now experiencing.

0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:36.680
<v Speaker 1>I was walking into a place known to Southwestern archaeologists

0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:41.919
<v Speaker 1>as the San Lazaro Ruins. With every step, my boots

0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:46.040
<v Speaker 1>were landing on broken shards of Indian pottery half a

0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:50.520
<v Speaker 1>foot deep. That brought a profound realization. I was walking

0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:53.919
<v Speaker 1>on ground that humans long before me had lived on

0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:58.360
<v Speaker 1>for some three hundred years. In every direction, the ground

0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:04.360
<v Speaker 1>underfoot was a thick, continuous surface of curving, angled, shattered pottery.

0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:07.960
<v Speaker 1>The pieces set at all angles and drawing the eye

0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:12.760
<v Speaker 1>with painted zigzags and designs in blacks and reds. This

0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:15.600
<v Speaker 1>is how the people who lived here seven hundred years

0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:19.840
<v Speaker 1>ago must have experienced a stroll around their town. I thought,

0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:23.960
<v Speaker 1>it's how the pioneers of archaeology in the West, the

0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:28.399
<v Speaker 1>Adolf Bandeliers, the Alfred Kidters and Edgar Hewletts, no doubt

0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:31.080
<v Speaker 1>felt the first time they walked across the ruins of

0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:35.080
<v Speaker 1>Chaco or Mesa Verdi, or the country I was in now,

0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:39.120
<v Speaker 1>the Galistaloe River country south of Santa Fe.

0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:42.600
<v Speaker 2>I was having this experience.

0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:45.520
<v Speaker 1>Because I've become friends with a remarkable Santa Fe character

0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:49.960
<v Speaker 1>named Forrest Finn. Among many aspects of Finn's world that

0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:54.000
<v Speaker 1>seemed more than improbable was that he actually owned the

0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:57.880
<v Speaker 1>ground where the ruins of San Lazaro stood. That's why

0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:01.520
<v Speaker 1>we were here. He was proudly showing off his possession

0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:05.800
<v Speaker 1>of the largest ancestral pueblo village site in the Santa

0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:10.080
<v Speaker 1>Fe area. A native Texan and a former Vietnam fighter

0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:13.680
<v Speaker 1>pilot who survived being shot down to become a successful

0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:17.000
<v Speaker 1>art gallery owner in Santa Fe. Fenn was in his

0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:21.439
<v Speaker 1>late seventies. Then his body leaned his silvery hair still

0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:22.920
<v Speaker 1>in a military buzz cut.

0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:25.320
<v Speaker 2>When we struck up a friendship, I.

0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:30.080
<v Speaker 1>Found him garrulous, hugely energetic, and, despite a slender education,

0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:31.800
<v Speaker 1>fiercely opinionated.

0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:33.960
<v Speaker 2>True to his Texas roots.

0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:37.639
<v Speaker 1>Those opinions included a hatred for the federal government and

0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:41.919
<v Speaker 1>a distrust of educated elites. Although he could occasionally be

0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:46.720
<v Speaker 1>impressed by experts, Fenn was as dedicated to Old West

0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:51.200
<v Speaker 1>history as fundamentalists are in Old Time religion. His home

0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:55.760
<v Speaker 1>came across as a combination museum, archive, and archaeology lab.

0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:59.760
<v Speaker 1>He outdid anyone in my experience with his boyish, hucked

0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:03.199
<v Speaker 1>finn like romance about Western adventure, which led him to

0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:08.080
<v Speaker 1>invest prodigious energy in several seriously crazy projects that made

0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:13.280
<v Speaker 1>many people WinCE. One was acquiring and doing amateur excavations

0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:16.960
<v Speaker 1>at a major site like San Lazaro. The last of

0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:20.280
<v Speaker 1>Forrest's grand ideas, when he was in his eighties, got

0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:25.280
<v Speaker 1>him national exposure that wasn't always admiring. He buried a

0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:28.960
<v Speaker 1>treasure chest containing more than two million dollars of precious

0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:32.520
<v Speaker 1>artifacts from around the world in a secret location in

0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:36.080
<v Speaker 1>the West, then self published a book featuring a page

0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:40.200
<v Speaker 1>of verse offering clues to its hiding spot. More than

0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:44.399
<v Speaker 1>one person died, and untold thousands trecked the West's vast

0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:47.680
<v Speaker 1>public lands in search of a treasure that to forest

0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:52.480
<v Speaker 1>offered ordinary folks a chance to reprise a classic Old

0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:55.960
<v Speaker 1>West opportunity, finding loot and.

0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:57.439
<v Speaker 2>Making a mint off nature.

0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:04.000
<v Speaker 1>San Lazaro had once been one of eight major Indian

0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:08.200
<v Speaker 1>towns that post Choco spread across the Galiso River near

0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:12.000
<v Speaker 1>where Spain would found Santa Fe in the year sixteen ten.

0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:16.400
<v Speaker 1>The entire four corners is lousy with the surviving ruins

0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:20.800
<v Speaker 1>of advanced farming civilizations that made the Southwest into one

0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:23.960
<v Speaker 1>of the most densely lived in parts of North America

0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:28.560
<v Speaker 1>a thousand years ago, long before Europeans came here, other

0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:33.320
<v Speaker 1>humans hoped and dreamed, lived, loved, and died, and left

0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:37.200
<v Speaker 1>their mark on this oldest place in America. In fact,

0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:41.040
<v Speaker 1>eight hundred years ago there was a far larger population

0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:45.560
<v Speaker 1>of people living in the Galisseo River country than actually

0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:49.680
<v Speaker 1>live here. Now that's a claim few other American regions

0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:54.920
<v Speaker 1>can make. A great drought in the Southwest, the most

0:21:54.960 --> 0:21:58.080
<v Speaker 1>severe one in the past thousand years, was the apparent

0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:01.520
<v Speaker 1>approximate cause that brought them here. In a sense, they

0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:06.480
<v Speaker 1>were religious refugees fleeing that hereditary religious class that had

0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:09.879
<v Speaker 1>insisted they could intervene with the gods to send life

0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:13.600
<v Speaker 1>saving rain. So the search for a new center place

0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:17.680
<v Speaker 1>led some of the former Choco Puebloans to the beautiful,

0:22:17.920 --> 0:22:24.080
<v Speaker 1>wind swept Galisteo Country. Here's what they found. A high

0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:27.760
<v Speaker 1>desert with three hundred and twenty days of annual sunshine,

0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:32.280
<v Speaker 1>prompting their name for it, placed near the sun, rainfall

0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:35.399
<v Speaker 1>that rarely reached to double figures but still made for

0:22:35.520 --> 0:22:40.399
<v Speaker 1>green mountains and dwarf forests. A river, albeit small, with

0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:47.360
<v Speaker 1>spring fed tributaries sometimes flowing water, sowable ground, sandstone for bricks,

0:22:47.440 --> 0:22:51.800
<v Speaker 1>and suitable soil to make adobes. A small mountain range

0:22:51.880 --> 0:22:55.280
<v Speaker 1>long known and famous far and wide for its sky

0:22:55.440 --> 0:23:00.280
<v Speaker 1>blue stones, ample firewood to boil their crops in the

0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:04.760
<v Speaker 1>grassland basin. Bands of striped prong orn antelope, mule deer

0:23:04.800 --> 0:23:08.120
<v Speaker 1>in the hills, and elk, sheep and bears in the mountains.

0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:12.560
<v Speaker 1>Eagles soaring overhead, packs of gray wolves howling in the night,

0:23:13.080 --> 0:23:17.040
<v Speaker 1>Lions slinking through the rocks, and sacred coyotes trotting by

0:23:17.160 --> 0:23:21.200
<v Speaker 1>with a quick, sharp eyed look. Crystalline air for watching

0:23:21.240 --> 0:23:26.600
<v Speaker 1>the sun's progress along the horizons, nights brilliant with jittering stars,

0:23:27.040 --> 0:23:31.480
<v Speaker 1>the steady glow of traveler planets, and the occasional light

0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:37.040
<v Speaker 1>that flies. The colonizers spoke two different pueblo and languages,

0:23:37.400 --> 0:23:42.040
<v Speaker 1>Tanno and Caresson, so living near one another were bilingual.

0:23:42.680 --> 0:23:45.600
<v Speaker 1>They wore garments made from the cotton they grew, and

0:23:45.800 --> 0:23:50.000
<v Speaker 1>ornamented themselves with turquoise jewelry. The women wore their dark

0:23:50.040 --> 0:23:54.280
<v Speaker 1>hair long, while men affected a bowl cut. They painted

0:23:54.320 --> 0:23:58.639
<v Speaker 1>colorful designs on pottery known as Rio Grand glazeware that

0:23:58.760 --> 0:24:02.800
<v Speaker 1>frequently included images of parrots or macaus, brilliantly mark birds,

0:24:02.840 --> 0:24:05.639
<v Speaker 1>traded up from Mexico and not native to anywhere in

0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:10.720
<v Speaker 1>the Southwest. Farm implements they fashioned from fire hardened juniper

0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:15.440
<v Speaker 1>arrow points largely from local black obcitian glass, and their

0:24:15.520 --> 0:24:20.080
<v Speaker 1>axe blades from an aluminum silica called fiber light. They

0:24:20.200 --> 0:24:24.520
<v Speaker 1>mined in the high rockies nearby. Their domestic animals were

0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:28.600
<v Speaker 1>dogs and turkeys. Their ancestors had domesticated turkeys around the

0:24:28.680 --> 0:24:33.119
<v Speaker 1>year one thousand, when huntable wildlife near their villages declined

0:24:33.359 --> 0:24:38.640
<v Speaker 1>and left them protein poor water manipulation and desert agriculture

0:24:38.760 --> 0:24:43.520
<v Speaker 1>required cooperative effort, so these were town dwellers. They lived

0:24:43.560 --> 0:24:47.800
<v Speaker 1>in apartment like rectangular buildings with flat roofs resting on

0:24:48.000 --> 0:24:53.000
<v Speaker 1>massive support beams, with plastered walls, occasionally built of stacked stone,

0:24:53.400 --> 0:24:57.639
<v Speaker 1>but more commonly in the Galileo country of puddled dried adobes.

0:24:58.359 --> 0:25:02.679
<v Speaker 1>The buildings often were three to five stories, with entrances,

0:25:02.800 --> 0:25:06.560
<v Speaker 1>cooking and daily life carried out on the top roof level.

0:25:06.920 --> 0:25:11.320
<v Speaker 1>The lower levels accessed by descending ladders into rooms that

0:25:11.440 --> 0:25:16.200
<v Speaker 1>featured gleaming, polished floors and walls, often painted with murals.

0:25:16.920 --> 0:25:21.359
<v Speaker 1>The buildings commonly grouped around central plazas. The plazas highlighted

0:25:21.480 --> 0:25:28.520
<v Speaker 1>circular underground ceremonial rooms known as kivas, with fireplaces, perimeter benches,

0:25:28.880 --> 0:25:33.400
<v Speaker 1>and a central hold a sipapu. It was called representing

0:25:33.480 --> 0:25:37.760
<v Speaker 1>humanity's point of emergence from a world below into.

0:25:37.520 --> 0:25:38.439
<v Speaker 2>The present world.

0:25:41.400 --> 0:25:45.000
<v Speaker 1>San Lazarro left the largest ruins of all the Galistale villages.

0:25:45.520 --> 0:25:49.159
<v Speaker 1>Its ruins cover fifty seven acres and feature the outlines

0:25:49.200 --> 0:25:53.439
<v Speaker 1>of twenty seven separate buildings, with one nine hundred and

0:25:53.480 --> 0:25:57.399
<v Speaker 1>forty one ground floor rooms and a remarkable total of

0:25:57.520 --> 0:26:02.159
<v Speaker 1>five thousand rooms. It was settled around twelve ninety, and,

0:26:02.200 --> 0:26:05.879
<v Speaker 1>despite a pair of debilitating droughts in the fourteen hundreds,

0:26:06.280 --> 0:26:09.119
<v Speaker 1>continued to grow for two hundred years, when its peak

0:26:09.200 --> 0:26:13.840
<v Speaker 1>population was nearly two thousand people. That's six times the

0:26:13.920 --> 0:26:20.360
<v Speaker 1>size of any twenty first century Galisteo valley town. By then,

0:26:20.520 --> 0:26:24.159
<v Speaker 1>many local resources were likely depleted, and the town was

0:26:24.200 --> 0:26:28.119
<v Speaker 1>abandoned in the early fifteen hundreds. The immediate catalyst to

0:26:28.160 --> 0:26:31.640
<v Speaker 1>that exodus may have been something dramatic, for in fifteen

0:26:31.680 --> 0:26:35.320
<v Speaker 1>eighty one, a Spanish party found the town half destroyed.

0:26:36.320 --> 0:26:40.160
<v Speaker 1>Finn's most remarkable San Lazaro discovery, for which he had

0:26:40.160 --> 0:26:44.199
<v Speaker 1>the good sense to call in professional archaeologists and native descendants,

0:26:44.640 --> 0:26:48.639
<v Speaker 1>came in nineteen ninety two, when he unearthed two plastered

0:26:48.720 --> 0:26:54.359
<v Speaker 1>Kachina masks and other stored sacred objects. The magnificent mask

0:26:54.520 --> 0:26:58.399
<v Speaker 1>appeared to represent black bears and were likely associated with

0:26:58.480 --> 0:27:03.600
<v Speaker 1>a bear clan or Medison society. Various dating techniques placed

0:27:03.640 --> 0:27:07.800
<v Speaker 1>the masks a few years on either side of fifteen hundred.

0:27:08.560 --> 0:27:12.119
<v Speaker 1>Kachina mask would be one of the most unlikely objects

0:27:12.400 --> 0:27:17.480
<v Speaker 1>any Puebloan would ever abandon, whatever happened at San Lazarro

0:27:17.600 --> 0:27:22.800
<v Speaker 1>around fifteen hundred must have come on remarkably suddenly when

0:27:22.840 --> 0:27:27.400
<v Speaker 1>European colonizers arrived in the early sixteen hundreds and introduced

0:27:27.520 --> 0:27:31.280
<v Speaker 1>fulsome news sources of protein. Four thousand sheep and one

0:27:31.280 --> 0:27:35.679
<v Speaker 1>thousand goats arrived with those first Spanish settlers. Pueblo people

0:27:35.920 --> 0:27:41.280
<v Speaker 1>fully reoccupied San Lazarro before long, though swelling resentment over

0:27:41.359 --> 0:27:45.359
<v Speaker 1>having to provide crops and labor, and as Spanish suppression

0:27:45.480 --> 0:27:49.600
<v Speaker 1>of the Kachina religion led San Lazaro's warriors to become

0:27:49.720 --> 0:27:53.280
<v Speaker 1>leaders in the Great Pueblo Revolt of sixteen eighty, which

0:27:53.359 --> 0:27:56.879
<v Speaker 1>drove the Europeans out of New Mexico for a dozen years.

0:27:57.640 --> 0:28:02.399
<v Speaker 1>But the Pueblo citizens were alarmed at the possible consequences

0:28:02.400 --> 0:28:06.879
<v Speaker 1>of this that everyone ended up fleeing San Lazaro, leaving

0:28:06.920 --> 0:28:10.480
<v Speaker 1>a four hundred year old city to dissolve into silence

0:28:10.520 --> 0:28:18.960
<v Speaker 1>and adobe. There were at least seven other similar, long

0:28:19.000 --> 0:28:22.879
<v Speaker 1>lived towns in the Galileo country, harboring at various times

0:28:23.119 --> 0:28:27.800
<v Speaker 1>several thousand more of these former Chocowans. Several were farther

0:28:27.920 --> 0:28:30.560
<v Speaker 1>east and close to the high plains, where they had

0:28:30.560 --> 0:28:34.879
<v Speaker 1>to survive a patchy rage after those Athabaskan speakers migrated

0:28:34.920 --> 0:28:38.360
<v Speaker 1>in from the far north, but like the townspeople of

0:28:38.400 --> 0:28:42.400
<v Speaker 1>San Lazaro, their inhabitants fled soon following the Pueblo Revolt,

0:28:42.640 --> 0:28:46.800
<v Speaker 1>when the Spanish absence allowed for even more plains Indian raids,

0:28:47.000 --> 0:28:51.000
<v Speaker 1>this time by Comanches thundering their horses through a rim

0:28:51.160 --> 0:28:57.160
<v Speaker 1>rock break that still known today as Comanche Gap. The

0:28:57.200 --> 0:29:00.240
<v Speaker 1>Spaniards called the westernmost Pueblo town they found than the

0:29:00.280 --> 0:29:04.560
<v Speaker 1>Galileo country, San Marcos. It was near a little mountain

0:29:04.680 --> 0:29:09.200
<v Speaker 1>range the newcomers named Los Surreals, the little hills that

0:29:09.320 --> 0:29:12.480
<v Speaker 1>had been mined since the time of Chaco for lead

0:29:12.680 --> 0:29:16.280
<v Speaker 1>use to glaze pottery, and for the ultimate trade item

0:29:16.400 --> 0:29:21.720
<v Speaker 1>from the southwest, sky blue turquoise. One thousand years ago,

0:29:21.840 --> 0:29:25.640
<v Speaker 1>Indian miners pulled turquoise or out of shafts in a

0:29:25.680 --> 0:29:30.040
<v Speaker 1>minor cereals peak called Chalchi Wheedle, the name from the

0:29:30.080 --> 0:29:34.160
<v Speaker 1>Aztec language, and a little mountain with an outsized reputation.

0:29:35.120 --> 0:29:37.960
<v Speaker 1>An image of this little mountain graces the Temple of

0:29:38.000 --> 0:29:42.360
<v Speaker 1>the Sun Pyramid in the Aztec capital of tenoch Teetlin.

0:29:43.200 --> 0:29:46.680
<v Speaker 1>I've explored its ancient shafts sum but always with hair

0:29:46.800 --> 0:29:51.040
<v Speaker 1>raising alarm and shock at the fearlessness of Indian miners.

0:29:52.720 --> 0:29:55.360
<v Speaker 1>The fortunes of these towns flourished and ebbed as the

0:29:55.400 --> 0:30:00.520
<v Speaker 1>centuries passed, when they were all occupied with unexploited resources available.

0:30:00.680 --> 0:30:04.400
<v Speaker 1>In the thirteen hundreds and fourteen hundreds, the combined population

0:30:04.480 --> 0:30:06.880
<v Speaker 1>of these Galileo River towns may have been more than

0:30:07.000 --> 0:30:11.360
<v Speaker 1>six thousand, because rainfall was essential for their economy, yet

0:30:11.440 --> 0:30:15.000
<v Speaker 1>droughts also strike the Galiseo. They made a science of

0:30:15.120 --> 0:30:19.240
<v Speaker 1>cloud and wind study, no doubt hopeful as modern residents

0:30:19.240 --> 0:30:23.320
<v Speaker 1>still are when grand anvil headed clouds full of moisture

0:30:23.640 --> 0:30:28.760
<v Speaker 1>towered up from the mountain ranges in summertime. Their religion

0:30:29.040 --> 0:30:33.200
<v Speaker 1>was less theocratic and more decentralized than at Chaco, and

0:30:33.320 --> 0:30:40.360
<v Speaker 1>featured clan leaders dressed in the elaborate costuming representing Kachina emissaries.

0:30:39.840 --> 0:30:41.200
<v Speaker 2>To the deities of nature.

0:30:41.880 --> 0:30:49.560
<v Speaker 1>The Kachina religion lives on among their descendants today, although

0:30:49.600 --> 0:30:53.160
<v Speaker 1>none of these towns survives today. Half of these Galiselo

0:30:53.200 --> 0:30:57.680
<v Speaker 1>pueblos lasted longer than the United States has existed, but

0:30:57.760 --> 0:31:00.640
<v Speaker 1>as is evident from a place like San Lazara, for

0:31:00.800 --> 0:31:06.280
<v Speaker 1>all their successes, the Galistale Pueblins struggled with long term sustainability.

0:31:07.040 --> 0:31:09.959
<v Speaker 1>The year round fires to boil their crops meant that

0:31:10.120 --> 0:31:14.360
<v Speaker 1>firewood cutting and gathering pushed farther out year after year.

0:31:15.200 --> 0:31:17.960
<v Speaker 1>One of the first scientists to investigate the ruins of

0:31:18.000 --> 0:31:22.000
<v Speaker 1>their towns, Nels Nelson of the American Museum of Natural History,

0:31:22.360 --> 0:31:26.080
<v Speaker 1>took a revelatory photograph of the San Lazaro site in

0:31:26.200 --> 0:31:30.560
<v Speaker 1>nineteen twelve, one hundred and thirty two years after its abandonment.

0:31:31.360 --> 0:31:36.720
<v Speaker 1>That photo showed a still barren landscape, almost entirely stripped

0:31:36.760 --> 0:31:40.760
<v Speaker 1>of trees and shrubs, for two miles around. With the

0:31:40.840 --> 0:31:45.400
<v Speaker 1>diaspora that followed Chaco's collapse, the new pueblo town of Pecos,

0:31:45.680 --> 0:31:50.400
<v Speaker 1>northeast of the Galistaloe country, developed a mutualistic arrangement with

0:31:50.480 --> 0:31:55.040
<v Speaker 1>planes hunters to trade Pueblo crop products for dried bison meat.

0:31:55.600 --> 0:31:59.840
<v Speaker 1>There's no evidence these Galistdale villages ever managed something similar,

0:32:00.280 --> 0:32:04.560
<v Speaker 1>so with eight towns and several thousand residents, huntable wildlife

0:32:04.760 --> 0:32:08.400
<v Speaker 1>likely took a significant hit. One bit of evidence comes

0:32:08.400 --> 0:32:13.720
<v Speaker 1>from Sand Lazaro's archaeology's astonishing number of bones and skulls,

0:32:14.080 --> 0:32:16.520
<v Speaker 1>many of them cracked open to get at marrow or

0:32:16.560 --> 0:32:21.320
<v Speaker 1>brains from the goats and sheep Spanish settlers introduced now

0:32:21.360 --> 0:32:25.800
<v Speaker 1>the sixteen hundreds. Protein was obviously a dietary addition. The

0:32:25.840 --> 0:32:30.520
<v Speaker 1>Galisteo Pueblo residents were avid for. Their several hundred year

0:32:30.560 --> 0:32:35.520
<v Speaker 1>inhabitation did leave the incoming Europeans a beautifully grass basin

0:32:35.720 --> 0:32:39.800
<v Speaker 1>and valley and a healthy Galisto river that flowed over

0:32:39.840 --> 0:32:44.160
<v Speaker 1>the surface of this landscape. The ecological changes that left

0:32:44.200 --> 0:32:47.960
<v Speaker 1>exotic weeds and spreading junipers and produced a river that

0:32:48.080 --> 0:32:52.280
<v Speaker 1>slashed arroyos and stream beds twenty five feet deep all

0:32:52.360 --> 0:32:56.440
<v Speaker 1>came later with pasturage for new spains, horse herds, and

0:32:56.520 --> 0:32:59.920
<v Speaker 1>flocks of sheep and goats, and when the Americans came

0:33:00.160 --> 0:33:10.880
<v Speaker 1>with millions of cattle and renewed mining in the local mountains.

0:33:10.920 --> 0:33:14.360
<v Speaker 1>Beyond walking across the broken pots at San Lazaro, my

0:33:14.480 --> 0:33:17.240
<v Speaker 1>own most vivid experience of the lingering presence of this

0:33:17.320 --> 0:33:21.040
<v Speaker 1>former Galistal world has come from hiking the remnant lava

0:33:21.160 --> 0:33:25.280
<v Speaker 1>dykes that rise like black dragon backbones from the yellow

0:33:25.320 --> 0:33:31.280
<v Speaker 1>grasslands here. Centuries ago, my Galistal neighbors lavishly adorned these

0:33:31.360 --> 0:33:35.800
<v Speaker 1>lava boulders with petroglyphs, not a handful, not a few dozen,

0:33:36.160 --> 0:33:40.760
<v Speaker 1>but with thousands of white outlined images carefully pecked into

0:33:40.800 --> 0:33:44.680
<v Speaker 1>the black rock surfaces for capturing some of the essentials

0:33:44.720 --> 0:33:48.040
<v Speaker 1>of their world and their presence. Nothing else brings them

0:33:48.080 --> 0:33:53.120
<v Speaker 1>to life like these Today we call petroglyphs and pictrographs

0:33:53.360 --> 0:33:56.800
<v Speaker 1>rock art, but of course they express a more specific

0:33:56.920 --> 0:34:01.520
<v Speaker 1>cosmic meaning than any decorative or narrative art. Picking my

0:34:01.560 --> 0:34:04.320
<v Speaker 1>way from boulder to boulder atop these dykes and keening

0:34:04.400 --> 0:34:08.000
<v Speaker 1>morning winds, the images have sometimes given me a Sistine

0:34:08.160 --> 0:34:12.000
<v Speaker 1>chapel feeling, at other times the open mouth reaction one

0:34:12.080 --> 0:34:16.520
<v Speaker 1>has to the Las Vegas Strip. There are elaborately costumed

0:34:16.600 --> 0:34:20.080
<v Speaker 1>Kachina figures on these rocks, and having once stood in

0:34:20.120 --> 0:34:24.640
<v Speaker 1>freezing December weather in Zuni Pueblo and watched a towering

0:34:24.719 --> 0:34:29.440
<v Speaker 1>Shaalako kachina clacking its two foot wooden beak while dancing

0:34:29.480 --> 0:34:33.200
<v Speaker 1>a Solstice blessing inside a brand new home, it's hard

0:34:33.239 --> 0:34:36.560
<v Speaker 1>for me to separate the sacred from the entertaining in

0:34:36.640 --> 0:34:40.920
<v Speaker 1>these images. I also can't help imagining date nights and

0:34:41.040 --> 0:34:45.200
<v Speaker 1>holding hands under a full moon, gobsmacked at white visions

0:34:45.320 --> 0:34:49.440
<v Speaker 1>leaping out at you from the silvery black. The imagery

0:34:49.520 --> 0:34:53.360
<v Speaker 1>is mind bending in variety and detail. There are mythical

0:34:53.360 --> 0:34:58.120
<v Speaker 1>creatures like giant horn water serpents, but also real rattlesnakes,

0:34:58.280 --> 0:35:03.680
<v Speaker 1>often too in tandem, underbird eagles, badgers, coyotes, bears, all

0:35:03.800 --> 0:35:09.160
<v Speaker 1>revered animals the Pueblos preserved. There are gleaming four pointed planets,

0:35:09.440 --> 0:35:13.040
<v Speaker 1>an endless variety of different cloud terraces, which is the

0:35:13.080 --> 0:35:16.360
<v Speaker 1>home of the Kachina gods, and those appear in conjunction

0:35:16.520 --> 0:35:21.040
<v Speaker 1>with water serpents, mountain lions, a woman's nether parts. There

0:35:21.080 --> 0:35:26.799
<v Speaker 1>are faces with or without masks. Handprints link these zigzag lines, spirals,

0:35:26.960 --> 0:35:33.000
<v Speaker 1>fields of dots, warrior figures protected by circular shields. While

0:35:33.120 --> 0:35:36.840
<v Speaker 1>history and their struggles at sustainability mean the Pueblo people

0:35:36.960 --> 0:35:40.279
<v Speaker 1>no longer live along the Galisal River, which is my

0:35:40.440 --> 0:35:43.200
<v Speaker 1>home today, their descendants.

0:35:42.680 --> 0:35:44.680
<v Speaker 2>Remain along the Rio Grande.

0:35:44.400 --> 0:35:47.600
<v Speaker 1>Nearby, and I like to go to the annual ceremonies

0:35:47.640 --> 0:35:50.719
<v Speaker 1>they open to the public. But like so much of

0:35:50.719 --> 0:35:54.160
<v Speaker 1>the human story, the past here and even in Chaco

0:35:54.800 --> 0:35:59.560
<v Speaker 1>somehow still seems just out of my grasp. We humans

0:35:59.600 --> 0:36:03.680
<v Speaker 1>focus on the moments we exist in touching the past

0:36:04.000 --> 0:36:16.040
<v Speaker 1>is the forever problem of history.

0:36:09.719 --> 0:36:29.399
<v Speaker 3>I'm Steve Vanella. I'm joined here by Randall Williams. Hello,

0:36:30.080 --> 0:36:32.359
<v Speaker 3>and we're gonna do a little thing where after we

0:36:32.440 --> 0:36:36.840
<v Speaker 3>listen to Dan Florey's American West podcast, we get to

0:36:36.840 --> 0:36:38.480
<v Speaker 3>come in. We have the privilege we get to come

0:36:38.520 --> 0:36:42.319
<v Speaker 3>in and ask questions and hopefully for you listeners, some

0:36:42.360 --> 0:36:44.120
<v Speaker 3>of the questions we asked might reflect some of the

0:36:44.239 --> 0:36:47.560
<v Speaker 3>questions that you have and maybe we'll do a little

0:36:47.600 --> 0:36:51.000
<v Speaker 3>thing or if you have questions, yeah, we will do this.

0:36:51.760 --> 0:36:55.040
<v Speaker 3>Send your questions in and at some point we'll send

0:36:55.040 --> 0:36:56.440
<v Speaker 3>your questions and at some point we'll be able to

0:36:56.600 --> 0:36:58.520
<v Speaker 3>round up with Dan and get your questions answered. But

0:36:58.560 --> 0:36:59.960
<v Speaker 3>in the meantime, here's our questions.

0:37:00.640 --> 0:37:03.440
<v Speaker 4>And this is very familiar to us as former students

0:37:03.440 --> 0:37:04.920
<v Speaker 4>of dance, so exactly.

0:37:05.680 --> 0:37:08.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, thanks to you guys for doing this, by the way,

0:37:08.200 --> 0:37:09.040
<v Speaker 1>really appreciate it.

0:37:09.080 --> 0:37:14.360
<v Speaker 3>Oh, it's great. You got you want to start.

0:37:15.560 --> 0:37:22.279
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think in the start of this episode you're

0:37:22.360 --> 0:37:27.360
<v Speaker 4>talking about many wests, and there's certain wests that have

0:37:28.800 --> 0:37:31.880
<v Speaker 4>you know, lived on and on and pop culture, especially

0:37:31.960 --> 0:37:37.239
<v Speaker 4>for Americans living in the twenty first century. But you

0:37:37.360 --> 0:37:40.920
<v Speaker 4>kind of challenge people to understand the West as a

0:37:41.000 --> 0:37:44.719
<v Speaker 4>much larger place than the West of cowboys and Indians

0:37:44.719 --> 0:37:48.720
<v Speaker 4>and of overland trails and everything like that. So I wonder,

0:37:51.320 --> 0:37:54.960
<v Speaker 4>what is it about the West that seems to have

0:37:55.000 --> 0:38:00.840
<v Speaker 4>grabbed a hold of our imaginations, and what has particular

0:38:00.880 --> 0:38:03.920
<v Speaker 4>about cowboy culture that's grabbed our imaginations? And then what

0:38:04.000 --> 0:38:07.560
<v Speaker 4>do we gain by opening our eyes to through the

0:38:07.600 --> 0:38:08.560
<v Speaker 4>deep time West.

0:38:10.760 --> 0:38:16.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So I'm putting together a podcast here, twenty six

0:38:16.800 --> 0:38:22.040
<v Speaker 1>episodes on it that will be about different kinds of

0:38:22.040 --> 0:38:25.759
<v Speaker 1>things than most people think of when they think of

0:38:26.160 --> 0:38:30.840
<v Speaker 1>Western history. They're no gunfights, they are no mining strikes,

0:38:33.400 --> 0:38:38.160
<v Speaker 1>there's no Marshall Dylon. What I'm interested in is a

0:38:38.239 --> 0:38:40.240
<v Speaker 1>different kind of West. And I think this is maybe

0:38:40.280 --> 0:38:43.239
<v Speaker 1>the value of something like this, a part of the

0:38:43.400 --> 0:38:48.000
<v Speaker 1>Western story that's not really been known or written about

0:38:48.160 --> 0:38:51.880
<v Speaker 1>very much, and certainly not in pop culture portrayed so

0:38:51.920 --> 0:38:55.440
<v Speaker 1>that people get to understand it. And what that West

0:38:55.560 --> 0:38:59.400
<v Speaker 1>is is something I call the natural West, which is

0:39:00.360 --> 0:39:04.400
<v Speaker 1>it's a West of the native people. It's a West

0:39:04.640 --> 0:39:12.879
<v Speaker 1>of wildlife, abundance beyond imagining for wildlife and many, many

0:39:12.880 --> 0:39:18.440
<v Speaker 1>different species, and it's a story of the West. That

0:39:19.719 --> 0:39:24.480
<v Speaker 1>really hinges a lot of around kind of an initial

0:39:25.160 --> 0:39:31.400
<v Speaker 1>reaction to a place that's different, new, and very unfamiliar

0:39:31.560 --> 0:39:34.920
<v Speaker 1>to people coming out of the East in particular. I mean,

0:39:34.960 --> 0:39:39.160
<v Speaker 1>I think people coming up, say from Mexico into New

0:39:39.200 --> 0:39:43.880
<v Speaker 1>Mexico or California, don't see the West as being that different.

0:39:43.920 --> 0:39:46.960
<v Speaker 1>Their usual reaction to the country farther north is that

0:39:47.040 --> 0:39:48.080
<v Speaker 1>it's cold.

0:39:48.480 --> 0:39:50.240
<v Speaker 2>But it's similar.

0:39:50.480 --> 0:39:51.680
<v Speaker 3>That's an interesting point, man.

0:39:51.840 --> 0:39:54.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's how they that's how they characterize it. Man,

0:39:54.080 --> 0:39:54.880
<v Speaker 1>it's really cold.

0:39:55.040 --> 0:39:57.640
<v Speaker 3>There kind of got similar thing going on as cold.

0:39:58.800 --> 0:40:01.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the country looks the same, but man, it's cold.

0:40:02.440 --> 0:40:08.160
<v Speaker 1>But what I'm kind of interested in is the deep

0:40:08.320 --> 0:40:12.520
<v Speaker 1>time story all the way back to the Pleistocene and

0:40:12.600 --> 0:40:16.560
<v Speaker 1>the earliest people who were here and how they interacted

0:40:16.600 --> 0:40:20.040
<v Speaker 1>with Western animals, because we have some pretty epic alterations

0:40:20.080 --> 0:40:23.320
<v Speaker 1>that take place in this story. I mean, we lose

0:40:23.360 --> 0:40:25.840
<v Speaker 1>a lot of animals ten thousand years ago. Then we

0:40:25.880 --> 0:40:27.840
<v Speaker 1>have a period where we go for ten thousand years

0:40:28.040 --> 0:40:31.000
<v Speaker 1>in the West and it looks as if native people

0:40:31.080 --> 0:40:36.000
<v Speaker 1>in particular are pretty benevolent. I mean, there's only one

0:40:36.040 --> 0:40:40.719
<v Speaker 1>extinction during that time period, and I try to try

0:40:40.719 --> 0:40:43.759
<v Speaker 1>to figure out why that is how it happened that way,

0:40:44.360 --> 0:40:47.120
<v Speaker 1>and then a lot of the rest of the episodes

0:40:47.560 --> 0:40:51.240
<v Speaker 1>have to do with a kind of an exploratory first

0:40:51.400 --> 0:40:56.200
<v Speaker 1>contact experience from people like Lewis and Clark, for example,

0:40:57.160 --> 0:40:59.880
<v Speaker 1>and a whole host of people later in the nineteenth century,

0:41:00.440 --> 0:41:05.080
<v Speaker 1>and also with what transpires in a West in the

0:41:05.160 --> 0:41:09.000
<v Speaker 1>nineteenth century with all this abundant wildlife where there are

0:41:09.080 --> 0:41:12.960
<v Speaker 1>really no rules, no regulations. It's just kind of a

0:41:13.040 --> 0:41:17.360
<v Speaker 1>free for all, and pretty much what you would predict

0:41:17.840 --> 0:41:20.719
<v Speaker 1>for a free for all, things don't turn out all

0:41:20.760 --> 0:41:23.279
<v Speaker 1>that great for a lot of the animals, and of

0:41:23.320 --> 0:41:23.960
<v Speaker 1>course a lot of.

0:41:23.880 --> 0:41:25.160
<v Speaker 2>The native people either.

0:41:25.480 --> 0:41:32.480
<v Speaker 1>But it's those stories in contrast to Marshall Dillon and

0:41:32.600 --> 0:41:38.800
<v Speaker 1>town building and the California gold Rush, the Mormon settlement

0:41:38.840 --> 0:41:43.560
<v Speaker 1>of Utah, these are the things that I've been writing about.

0:41:43.360 --> 0:41:45.360
<v Speaker 2>For thirty five years.

0:41:45.400 --> 0:41:49.920
<v Speaker 1>Basically, I never was interested much because other people had

0:41:49.920 --> 0:41:54.520
<v Speaker 1>already done it to write about the mining rushes or

0:41:54.760 --> 0:41:58.120
<v Speaker 1>the Indian Wars. I was always looking for something different

0:41:58.480 --> 0:42:01.759
<v Speaker 1>and new to write about that I thought would sort

0:42:01.800 --> 0:42:05.759
<v Speaker 1>of tell us story that nobody quite knew yet. And

0:42:05.800 --> 0:42:07.640
<v Speaker 1>that's really what this podcast does.

0:42:08.680 --> 0:42:11.960
<v Speaker 3>This there's the thing I've wondered about there's an impression

0:42:11.960 --> 0:42:18.320
<v Speaker 3>I have unsourced material about source material east versus West

0:42:18.440 --> 0:42:22.840
<v Speaker 3>source material, and you might not share the same impression.

0:42:22.960 --> 0:42:24.640
<v Speaker 3>But if you have this impression, maybe you can speak

0:42:24.680 --> 0:42:29.399
<v Speaker 3>to it would be this is a very roundabout way

0:42:29.400 --> 0:42:31.880
<v Speaker 3>of arriving at the point. But when Rand and I

0:42:31.920 --> 0:42:35.400
<v Speaker 3>were reading about the long hunters, so this this group

0:42:35.520 --> 0:42:39.840
<v Speaker 3>of Euro American deer skin hunters that were first pushing

0:42:39.880 --> 0:42:44.800
<v Speaker 3>over the apple Achian Mountains and going into Kentucky, basically

0:42:45.040 --> 0:42:48.480
<v Speaker 3>the country south of the Ohio River, west of the

0:42:48.520 --> 0:42:51.640
<v Speaker 3>apple Aachian Range, south of the Ohio pushing into that area,

0:42:52.000 --> 0:42:56.120
<v Speaker 3>and we kind of marvel at the paucity of materials

0:42:57.480 --> 0:43:02.880
<v Speaker 3>and the and the the lack of sort of like

0:43:03.400 --> 0:43:08.040
<v Speaker 3>the lack of natural observation, the lack of nature observation.

0:43:08.920 --> 0:43:11.480
<v Speaker 3>What is there was collected like very deliberately by a

0:43:11.560 --> 0:43:15.759
<v Speaker 3>historian who went and talked to some of the key players, children, spouses,

0:43:15.840 --> 0:43:18.440
<v Speaker 3>grandchildren and try to put together a little history of

0:43:18.440 --> 0:43:21.440
<v Speaker 3>these first euro Americans to push into this area. But

0:43:21.520 --> 0:43:26.120
<v Speaker 3>there's just not a ton there. And that is at say,

0:43:27.719 --> 0:43:33.160
<v Speaker 3>seventeen seventy six. Yeah, what happens that when you get

0:43:33.280 --> 0:43:36.239
<v Speaker 3>what happens in the next thirty forty years where all

0:43:36.280 --> 0:43:40.960
<v Speaker 3>of a sudden it seems like everyone is so literate. Yeah,

0:43:41.000 --> 0:43:45.200
<v Speaker 3>and everyone is just observing and writing about trying to

0:43:45.360 --> 0:43:50.479
<v Speaker 3>you know, writing about the sites they see, counting things right,

0:43:50.640 --> 0:43:54.279
<v Speaker 3>like really putting a record down. Then now you can

0:43:54.320 --> 0:43:56.240
<v Speaker 3>look at the West, and part of what's so inviting

0:43:56.280 --> 0:44:01.040
<v Speaker 3>about it is there something, there's something there to read about. Yeah,

0:44:01.200 --> 0:44:04.240
<v Speaker 3>and it's really hard to get Like you just when

0:44:04.320 --> 0:44:07.399
<v Speaker 3>looking at people coming into Kentucky again for instance, coming

0:44:07.400 --> 0:44:13.120
<v Speaker 3>into Kentucky, it's like there's hints of things where you're like,

0:44:13.239 --> 0:44:15.279
<v Speaker 3>you gather it must have been really different, but there's

0:44:15.360 --> 0:44:20.200
<v Speaker 3>no just vivid pictures of what they're seeing. Did people

0:44:20.239 --> 0:44:22.400
<v Speaker 3>also learn to read and write? Like, like, how do

0:44:22.440 --> 0:44:24.200
<v Speaker 3>you how do you explain that?

0:44:25.080 --> 0:44:25.319
<v Speaker 2>Well?

0:44:25.680 --> 0:44:28.960
<v Speaker 1>I explained it in three ways, I guess. One is

0:44:29.000 --> 0:44:32.880
<v Speaker 1>that starting in eighteen hundred, a lot of the expeditions

0:44:32.880 --> 0:44:36.319
<v Speaker 1>into the West, or government expeditions, and those people are

0:44:36.400 --> 0:44:40.080
<v Speaker 1>giving given specific instructions to keep a record, keep a

0:44:40.160 --> 0:44:44.720
<v Speaker 1>really close record. I mean, Jefferson tells Lewis and Clark,

0:44:44.760 --> 0:44:47.319
<v Speaker 1>for example, you know, any animals that you see that

0:44:47.360 --> 0:44:50.640
<v Speaker 1>aren't found in the maritime states, collect them, write a description,

0:44:51.280 --> 0:44:53.640
<v Speaker 1>learn them as much about their natural history as you can.

0:44:53.840 --> 0:44:56.360
<v Speaker 1>And I think that's one of the things. I think

0:44:56.440 --> 0:45:01.320
<v Speaker 1>another thing is that there are a lot of Europeans

0:45:01.920 --> 0:45:07.360
<v Speaker 1>coming over in the early nineteenth century. The Thomas Nuttalls,

0:45:07.440 --> 0:45:13.640
<v Speaker 1>the John Bradberry's and those guys tend to look at

0:45:13.920 --> 0:45:17.560
<v Speaker 1>darkest North America sort of the way the Brits were

0:45:17.640 --> 0:45:23.160
<v Speaker 1>looking at Africa. Then where Wow, man, this is some

0:45:23.440 --> 0:45:26.440
<v Speaker 1>amazing part of the world that none of us has

0:45:26.480 --> 0:45:29.440
<v Speaker 1>ever seen. And so we got to keep a record

0:45:29.920 --> 0:45:32.320
<v Speaker 1>of all of it. We've got to, you know, we've

0:45:32.360 --> 0:45:36.960
<v Speaker 1>got to preserve what it looks like. And I think

0:45:38.120 --> 0:45:43.760
<v Speaker 1>really there was an actual market.

0:45:43.280 --> 0:45:47.279
<v Speaker 2>For literary work about the West.

0:45:47.520 --> 0:45:50.799
<v Speaker 1>Starting around probably as early as eighteen ten. And I

0:45:50.840 --> 0:45:54.000
<v Speaker 1>think the you know, the Nicholas Biddle Journals of the

0:45:54.080 --> 0:45:56.640
<v Speaker 1>Lewis and Clark Expedition, which came out in eighteen fourteen.

0:45:56.840 --> 0:45:59.680
<v Speaker 2>I mean, those things sold like hotcakes in the East,

0:45:59.840 --> 0:46:00.279
<v Speaker 2>and I.

0:46:00.200 --> 0:46:03.719
<v Speaker 1>Think that made people understand that, wow, okay, all I

0:46:03.719 --> 0:46:05.920
<v Speaker 1>gotta do is go out to the West, you know,

0:46:06.000 --> 0:46:10.960
<v Speaker 1>and write some account. And it even led to I mean,

0:46:10.960 --> 0:46:14.560
<v Speaker 1>and I have found two or three of these what

0:46:14.640 --> 0:46:19.240
<v Speaker 1>were basically made up accounts by people who never actually

0:46:19.320 --> 0:46:22.279
<v Speaker 1>went to the West, but they talked to people and

0:46:22.320 --> 0:46:25.279
<v Speaker 1>read other people's stuff and sat down and wrote an

0:46:25.320 --> 0:46:27.400
<v Speaker 1>account of their own journey.

0:46:27.480 --> 0:46:30.120
<v Speaker 3>Like it was enough of a thing that there's value

0:46:30.120 --> 0:46:30.959
<v Speaker 3>in faking one.

0:46:31.120 --> 0:46:34.640
<v Speaker 1>Yes, there was, and you could sell a faked book.

0:46:35.000 --> 0:46:40.480
<v Speaker 1>There's one particular guy, a guy named John Mayley, who

0:46:40.520 --> 0:46:44.480
<v Speaker 1>wrote a faked book about an expedition he took up

0:46:44.520 --> 0:46:48.279
<v Speaker 1>the Red River, and he sold it for like five

0:46:48.360 --> 0:46:50.480
<v Speaker 1>thousand dollars or something, which, of course at the time

0:46:50.600 --> 0:46:53.799
<v Speaker 1>was a huge sum of money. But the publisher he

0:46:53.880 --> 0:46:57.200
<v Speaker 1>sold it to broke in the panic, the Depression of

0:46:57.239 --> 0:47:00.400
<v Speaker 1>eighteen nineteen, and they never did publish it. So it

0:47:00.480 --> 0:47:03.080
<v Speaker 1>kind of exists just as a manuscript which I have

0:47:03.239 --> 0:47:07.160
<v Speaker 1>actually examined and examined closely enough to realize bullshit.

0:47:07.480 --> 0:47:09.080
<v Speaker 2>This guy did not do any of this.

0:47:10.800 --> 0:47:13.160
<v Speaker 3>But man, like, it's off your subject matter. But can

0:47:13.200 --> 0:47:16.440
<v Speaker 3>you just imagine that if a century prior to Lewis

0:47:16.440 --> 0:47:20.960
<v Speaker 3>and Clark you to have taken people with that mandate

0:47:21.360 --> 0:47:24.000
<v Speaker 3>and that skill set, and you had said, I want

0:47:24.040 --> 0:47:26.080
<v Speaker 3>you to cross over the range divide, I want you

0:47:26.160 --> 0:47:34.560
<v Speaker 3>to descend the Ohio decend the Mississippi, come back overland, yeah,

0:47:34.760 --> 0:47:38.920
<v Speaker 3>trace or whatever, and like do your thing, like right

0:47:38.960 --> 0:47:41.200
<v Speaker 3>down about all this stuff, right down about all of it.

0:47:41.360 --> 0:47:41.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you have to.

0:47:42.080 --> 0:47:46.000
<v Speaker 4>I mean in that era, you really have to sort

0:47:46.080 --> 0:47:50.200
<v Speaker 4>through what material there is to get glimpses of the

0:47:50.280 --> 0:47:54.840
<v Speaker 4>natural world. And obviously there's a literature from the earlier

0:47:54.880 --> 0:47:56.080
<v Speaker 4>colonial period.

0:47:55.840 --> 0:47:58.760
<v Speaker 2>Of you know, English gentlemen.

0:48:00.520 --> 0:48:03.200
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean it doesn't William Bartram kind of very

0:48:03.239 --> 0:48:07.000
<v Speaker 4>it reads is very sort of pre modern, not in

0:48:07.040 --> 0:48:10.720
<v Speaker 4>the technical sense, but pre modern. I mean it's very

0:48:10.960 --> 0:48:11.239
<v Speaker 4>It's like.

0:48:11.320 --> 0:48:14.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you read that's true. You read like the account

0:48:14.520 --> 0:48:17.400
<v Speaker 3>of Kabe's a Devaka. It feels like it's like an

0:48:17.440 --> 0:48:21.360
<v Speaker 3>extended acid trip. You know, like you're kind of like, what, really,

0:48:21.440 --> 0:48:23.520
<v Speaker 3>there's no way, I mean, that's you kind of like

0:48:23.960 --> 0:48:26.319
<v Speaker 3>it doesn't paint a vivid picture. And I think that

0:48:26.440 --> 0:48:31.280
<v Speaker 3>something you're right, Like, something happened linguistically where we got

0:48:31.320 --> 0:48:33.120
<v Speaker 3>over this hump and all of a sudden you can

0:48:33.320 --> 0:48:35.160
<v Speaker 3>understand what people are talking about.

0:48:35.320 --> 0:48:40.919
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's that a market emerged for it.

0:48:41.520 --> 0:48:44.760
<v Speaker 1>There was a market, you know, America where we're interested

0:48:44.800 --> 0:48:48.640
<v Speaker 1>in possibilities for making money, and here was this wild

0:48:48.760 --> 0:48:53.440
<v Speaker 1>new country that everybody around the world, including all the Europeans,

0:48:53.440 --> 0:48:57.839
<v Speaker 1>were really intrigued by, And so people began to realize, well, hell,

0:48:58.280 --> 0:49:00.880
<v Speaker 1>I just you know, I try to I try to

0:49:00.960 --> 0:49:01.480
<v Speaker 1>keep notes.

0:49:01.600 --> 0:49:03.080
<v Speaker 2>Maybe I embellish a little bit.

0:49:03.000 --> 0:49:07.920
<v Speaker 1>Even, And so I think that's kind of one of

0:49:07.920 --> 0:49:12.600
<v Speaker 1>the explanations for what happens starting about eighteen hundred and

0:49:12.600 --> 0:49:16.200
<v Speaker 1>eighteen ten, that suddenly you start getting a lot more

0:49:16.600 --> 0:49:19.440
<v Speaker 1>primary source accounts. You have to use them, you know,

0:49:19.520 --> 0:49:20.279
<v Speaker 1>with a grain of salt.

0:49:20.320 --> 0:49:20.600
<v Speaker 2>Sometimes.

0:49:21.080 --> 0:49:24.399
<v Speaker 3>I wasn't really aware of that, man, and you turned

0:49:24.440 --> 0:49:28.480
<v Speaker 3>me on to that to be suspicious. In studying writing,

0:49:28.520 --> 0:49:31.840
<v Speaker 3>we'd always in studying fiction writing, we always learned about

0:49:31.960 --> 0:49:39.000
<v Speaker 3>the the unreliable narrator as a fictional device, right like

0:49:39.719 --> 0:49:42.600
<v Speaker 3>you're reading a novel and the reader sort of becomes

0:49:42.600 --> 0:49:45.440
<v Speaker 3>aware like that part of the thing is not to

0:49:45.480 --> 0:49:49.040
<v Speaker 3>trust the narrator, which is common in movies and other stuff,

0:49:49.080 --> 0:49:52.640
<v Speaker 3>right like it's built, it's built intension. I never thought

0:49:52.640 --> 0:49:55.759
<v Speaker 3>of it in historical journals. I never thought of it.

0:49:55.800 --> 0:49:58.759
<v Speaker 3>And I had read Tough Trip through Paradise, and I'd

0:49:58.760 --> 0:50:00.839
<v Speaker 3>emailed you or ran in to you whatever it was,

0:50:00.920 --> 0:50:03.560
<v Speaker 3>and asked you about tough trip through Paradise. I remember

0:50:03.600 --> 0:50:08.520
<v Speaker 3>you said basically, you know, be careful. He plays a

0:50:08.520 --> 0:50:10.439
<v Speaker 3>little I think he said something. He gets a little

0:50:10.520 --> 0:50:12.479
<v Speaker 3>fast and loose, and some of the things don't quite

0:50:12.480 --> 0:50:14.760
<v Speaker 3>add up, and I just read it like gospel.

0:50:14.960 --> 0:50:16.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, well, I think one is inclined to

0:50:16.960 --> 0:50:19.120
<v Speaker 1>do that until you began to realize that. You know,

0:50:19.160 --> 0:50:22.200
<v Speaker 1>the classic one in the West is the account of

0:50:22.280 --> 0:50:26.240
<v Speaker 1>James Ohio Patty, who you know. I mean that book

0:50:26.320 --> 0:50:30.680
<v Speaker 1>was probably published ten different times in the nineteenth century,

0:50:30.920 --> 0:50:32.800
<v Speaker 1>and so there are a bunch of different versions.

0:50:32.800 --> 0:50:33.600
<v Speaker 2>He changed him up.

0:50:33.719 --> 0:50:36.560
<v Speaker 3>Wait, we quote him, and had been warned about him, now,

0:50:36.719 --> 0:50:37.799
<v Speaker 3>but we quote him.

0:50:37.880 --> 0:50:41.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he's got some good some good details. Yeah, he

0:50:41.960 --> 0:50:43.000
<v Speaker 2>does have some good details.

0:50:43.040 --> 0:50:45.360
<v Speaker 1>And I mean, who knows what I think, for example,

0:50:45.640 --> 0:50:48.880
<v Speaker 1>with people like that, like Patty and maybe like John Maylee,

0:50:49.080 --> 0:50:51.840
<v Speaker 1>is they actually did I think Melee knew enough to

0:50:51.920 --> 0:50:55.600
<v Speaker 1>convince me that he had talked to people, he had talked.

0:50:55.360 --> 0:50:56.920
<v Speaker 2>To people who knew about it.

0:50:57.239 --> 0:51:00.160
<v Speaker 1>But when he started going up the Red River and

0:51:00.200 --> 0:51:04.120
<v Speaker 1>started describing the landmarks, I mean I could tell by

0:51:04.160 --> 0:51:06.480
<v Speaker 1>the time you got to about the third or fourth day,

0:51:07.320 --> 0:51:09.600
<v Speaker 1>this guy ain't nowhere on any red rivers that.

0:51:09.960 --> 0:51:13.839
<v Speaker 2>Existed then or now. I mean, so it was.

0:51:14.320 --> 0:51:17.400
<v Speaker 1>You know, it's a market for stuff and it produces

0:51:17.719 --> 0:51:20.640
<v Speaker 1>a huge abundance of material to use, but somehow you

0:51:20.640 --> 0:51:21.240
<v Speaker 1>have to be careful.

0:51:21.719 --> 0:51:26.640
<v Speaker 3>I'm reading one right now. It's like sixty years. It's

0:51:26.680 --> 0:51:30.759
<v Speaker 3>a guy that wound up in Montana, wound up having

0:51:30.840 --> 0:51:32.480
<v Speaker 3>he had a trading for it. He had a trading

0:51:32.480 --> 0:51:35.360
<v Speaker 3>post in Missoula for a while. Can't member's name. Sixty years,

0:51:35.400 --> 0:51:39.239
<v Speaker 3>a fighter and trader or something. And a lot of

0:51:39.280 --> 0:51:40.840
<v Speaker 3>the stuff in there. There's a lot of stuff in

0:51:40.880 --> 0:51:44.640
<v Speaker 3>there where you read it and you're like you accept

0:51:44.680 --> 0:51:47.719
<v Speaker 3>as legit. Like some of the observations are ways they

0:51:47.840 --> 0:51:51.759
<v Speaker 3>use things right, like little tricks of the trade. You're like,

0:51:51.840 --> 0:51:54.279
<v Speaker 3>that has to come from a level of knowledge. But

0:51:54.400 --> 0:51:56.799
<v Speaker 3>other parts of it, you know, he's talking about I

0:51:56.840 --> 0:52:00.560
<v Speaker 3>sent Randall passage about Sharp's Buffalo rifles, and Randall's like

0:52:00.600 --> 0:52:05.640
<v Speaker 3>they didn't exist, So he's a mystery later he's misremembering whatever,

0:52:05.680 --> 0:52:07.719
<v Speaker 3>you know. I mean, he's like he feels like he

0:52:07.840 --> 0:52:09.840
<v Speaker 3>had one at a time when he didn't actually have

0:52:10.160 --> 0:52:13.359
<v Speaker 3>before Christian made a rifle. Yeah, but here's the thing,

0:52:13.520 --> 0:52:15.160
<v Speaker 3>like my man fought in World War Two. Okay, my

0:52:15.200 --> 0:52:17.239
<v Speaker 3>dad's long. Dad, my dad fought in World War Two.

0:52:17.280 --> 0:52:20.480
<v Speaker 3>I could tell you he told me about getting and

0:52:20.520 --> 0:52:25.719
<v Speaker 3>carrying around with him a Thompson submachine gun. Right now,

0:52:25.960 --> 0:52:27.920
<v Speaker 3>I could go and put down like my dad was

0:52:27.920 --> 0:52:29.959
<v Speaker 3>in World War two and had a Thompson sub machine gun.

0:52:30.080 --> 0:52:32.359
<v Speaker 3>And he might be like, well, no, no, no, I didn't

0:52:32.400 --> 0:52:34.000
<v Speaker 3>have it there. I had it later. But you know

0:52:34.040 --> 0:52:36.640
<v Speaker 3>what I mean, Like like I just remember war Thompson

0:52:36.680 --> 0:52:40.160
<v Speaker 3>submachine gun, and you can see someone later just out

0:52:40.160 --> 0:52:44.839
<v Speaker 3>of expediency bleeding it together, just putting it all in there,

0:52:44.840 --> 0:52:47.640
<v Speaker 3>and then someone later saying that that couldn't have been true. Yea,

0:52:47.760 --> 0:52:48.640
<v Speaker 3>he wouldn't have had it.

0:52:48.680 --> 0:52:49.400
<v Speaker 2>He don't know.

0:52:49.520 --> 0:52:51.400
<v Speaker 3>He couldn't have had it at Anzio. He could have

0:52:51.400 --> 0:52:53.239
<v Speaker 3>had it later in France, but he wouldn't have had

0:52:53.239 --> 0:52:53.880
<v Speaker 3>it at Anzio.

0:52:54.120 --> 0:52:56.680
<v Speaker 1>Well, it becomes these kinds of things become even more

0:52:56.760 --> 0:53:00.160
<v Speaker 1>difficult when you're dealing like with in this particular or

0:53:00.239 --> 0:53:06.200
<v Speaker 1>podcast with the people in Shako, where we have no

0:53:06.320 --> 0:53:11.120
<v Speaker 1>written accounts. All we have to go on is archaeology

0:53:11.600 --> 0:53:17.279
<v Speaker 1>and material culture objects and so and now genetics. Obviously,

0:53:17.600 --> 0:53:20.920
<v Speaker 1>that story about the the fourteen people who are all

0:53:20.960 --> 0:53:24.120
<v Speaker 1>related to one another buried in a single room in Puebloo.

0:53:24.480 --> 0:53:28.920
<v Speaker 1>That makes the whole story of telling the deep time

0:53:29.120 --> 0:53:31.640
<v Speaker 1>history of the West even more difficult, because now you

0:53:31.680 --> 0:53:34.360
<v Speaker 1>don't really have you may have, I mean, and I

0:53:34.400 --> 0:53:38.280
<v Speaker 1>have used them this way. There are great coyote stories

0:53:38.320 --> 0:53:41.960
<v Speaker 1>going back thousands of years, and I have occasionally used

0:53:42.320 --> 0:53:46.560
<v Speaker 1>a coyote story associated with a particular group that I

0:53:46.560 --> 0:53:50.920
<v Speaker 1>think would make a point about them. But that's literally

0:53:50.960 --> 0:53:55.480
<v Speaker 1>the only kind of storytelling you get. It's oral history,

0:53:56.080 --> 0:53:59.680
<v Speaker 1>and so you have to you have to approach things

0:54:00.360 --> 0:54:03.800
<v Speaker 1>that way, as you know, really carefully.

0:54:04.440 --> 0:54:06.560
<v Speaker 3>But that's where my that's where my observation, I guess,

0:54:06.640 --> 0:54:09.040
<v Speaker 3>falls apart because I was talking about the vivid descriptions,

0:54:09.280 --> 0:54:12.640
<v Speaker 3>but when it comes to the Pueblo site, some of

0:54:12.640 --> 0:54:16.239
<v Speaker 3>the ancient Pueblo sites, here's these really these guys doing

0:54:16.239 --> 0:54:19.080
<v Speaker 3>really vivid descriptions, and they're stumped.

0:54:19.320 --> 0:54:19.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:54:20.320 --> 0:54:23.000
<v Speaker 3>The vivid description is of someone being like, what in

0:54:23.040 --> 0:54:23.919
<v Speaker 3>the hell happened here?

0:54:24.600 --> 0:54:24.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

0:54:24.840 --> 0:54:25.960
<v Speaker 3>You know what I mean, it's not even like a

0:54:26.040 --> 0:54:30.399
<v Speaker 3>vivid they're just describing being awestruck by what they see

0:54:30.440 --> 0:54:31.000
<v Speaker 3>as a ruin.

0:54:31.320 --> 0:54:35.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So what we're grappling with then is you know,

0:54:35.480 --> 0:54:38.880
<v Speaker 1>so people got into Chaco in the eighteen fifties for

0:54:38.880 --> 0:54:41.680
<v Speaker 1>the first time, eighteen fifties, eighteen sixties, and so we've

0:54:41.800 --> 0:54:46.799
<v Speaker 1>essentially got one hundred and seventy years of archaeological speculation.

0:54:47.560 --> 0:54:49.919
<v Speaker 1>And so the way you try to figure it out

0:54:50.000 --> 0:54:54.400
<v Speaker 1>as you sort of track that story through to hopefully

0:54:54.440 --> 0:54:58.759
<v Speaker 1>the most recent versions of well, here's what it kind

0:54:58.760 --> 0:55:02.440
<v Speaker 1>of looks like what happened. But that kind of evidence

0:55:02.600 --> 0:55:06.120
<v Speaker 1>is never quite as fool proof as Lewis and Clark

0:55:06.200 --> 0:55:09.120
<v Speaker 1>saying today, for the first time we saw and shot

0:55:09.120 --> 0:55:09.640
<v Speaker 1>a buffalo.

0:55:09.760 --> 0:55:11.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, So the.

0:55:13.080 --> 0:55:16.160
<v Speaker 1>Story of the West when you go back in time

0:55:16.840 --> 0:55:23.480
<v Speaker 1>is based on a kind of an evidentiary base that

0:55:23.640 --> 0:55:27.239
<v Speaker 1>you have to even be more careful with, but it's

0:55:27.280 --> 0:55:29.240
<v Speaker 1>the only way we have to figure out what happens.

0:55:29.440 --> 0:55:31.200
<v Speaker 3>Have you ever read Black Range Tales?

0:55:31.719 --> 0:55:32.440
<v Speaker 2>I don't think so.

0:55:32.600 --> 0:55:37.440
<v Speaker 3>It's a gold miner. He's knocking around New Mexico mostly

0:55:39.560 --> 0:55:43.400
<v Speaker 3>eighteen sixties. But one of the things really stuck with

0:55:43.400 --> 0:55:46.120
<v Speaker 3>me is here's this guy in the eighteen sixties and

0:55:46.160 --> 0:55:49.879
<v Speaker 3>he's talking about basically trying to loot pueblo sites, and

0:55:49.960 --> 0:55:52.439
<v Speaker 3>in the eighteen sixties. He's lamenting that all the good

0:55:52.440 --> 0:55:57.799
<v Speaker 3>stuff's been hauled away. In the eighteen sixties. He describes

0:55:57.840 --> 0:56:00.719
<v Speaker 3>like amazing things that other guys have carried off.

0:56:00.800 --> 0:56:03.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah right, yeah, well that's that.

0:56:03.360 --> 0:56:07.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely, that's been going on forever. As soon as

0:56:07.040 --> 0:56:11.040
<v Speaker 1>those villages, like in the Galiseo Valley were abandoned, there's

0:56:11.080 --> 0:56:13.840
<v Speaker 1>no question there were people out there poking around seeing

0:56:13.840 --> 0:56:14.480
<v Speaker 1>what they could find.

0:56:14.680 --> 0:56:16.280
<v Speaker 2>Instantly, yeah, just instantly.

0:56:16.920 --> 0:56:20.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And so who knows what all disappeared, but sometimes

0:56:20.239 --> 0:56:23.279
<v Speaker 1>really great finds or you know, they remain. And I

0:56:23.280 --> 0:56:27.200
<v Speaker 1>mean those Kachina masks that Forest Finn found there in

0:56:27.280 --> 0:56:30.320
<v Speaker 1>San Lazarro Pueblo in nineteen ninety two. Man, that's a

0:56:31.480 --> 0:56:37.160
<v Speaker 1>you just don't find that stuff in part because nobody

0:56:37.320 --> 0:56:43.920
<v Speaker 1>ever leaves it. And something that we don't understand happened

0:56:44.480 --> 0:56:50.480
<v Speaker 1>at San Lazaro around fifteen hundred that caused that population

0:56:50.600 --> 0:56:55.560
<v Speaker 1>of that town to flee. So suddenly that either some

0:56:56.719 --> 0:57:02.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, some magician, some healer, some shaman maybe got

0:57:02.200 --> 0:57:08.120
<v Speaker 1>killed and couldn't go for his his goods, or some

0:57:08.239 --> 0:57:12.839
<v Speaker 1>attack came so suddenly that everybody just fled. I mean,

0:57:13.520 --> 0:57:16.240
<v Speaker 1>so sometimes you get lucky like that, and Forrest got

0:57:16.400 --> 0:57:17.440
<v Speaker 1>pretty lucky on that one.

0:57:17.800 --> 0:57:19.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's it's.

0:57:19.720 --> 0:57:22.080
<v Speaker 3>Like founding finding a modern day house where they didn't

0:57:22.080 --> 0:57:23.200
<v Speaker 3>even take their passports.

0:57:23.280 --> 0:57:25.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah that's right, that's exactly right.

0:57:25.600 --> 0:57:27.760
<v Speaker 3>Well damn man, I'm super excited for the series. I

0:57:27.760 --> 0:57:29.880
<v Speaker 3>can't wait to learn all this stuff that's coming.

0:57:29.960 --> 0:57:32.400
<v Speaker 2>So thanks, well thanks to you guys for joining me

0:57:32.440 --> 0:57:32.600
<v Speaker 2>with this