WEBVTT - What's Permaculture All About? 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:08.920 Hey, everybody, Think Spring is here with our Think Spring playlist, 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:13.640 and it's Chuck here to introduce today's episode. What's permaculture 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:17.040 all about? Permaculture is a pretty great thing, and it's 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:19.079 you know, if you don't know anything about it, this 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:21.560 can teach you all about it and it may just 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:23.840 change the way you live your life. There at yourius, 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:25.360 so give it a try. 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:41.960 Welcome to Stuff you should Know from HowStuffWorks dot com. 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:45.000 Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:49.519 there's Charles w. Chipper, Chuck Bryant and there's Jerry Rowland, 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:53.800 and we're all in great moods everybody, because it's stuff 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:56.920 you should know. Time. Everything else just falls to the 0:00:56.960 --> 0:00:59.800 wayside when we record stuff you should know. It's just 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:02.360 it's the reason we love doing it. Still, after a 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:04.000 thousand episodes. 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:07.280 You realize every single listener right now is thinking, why 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:09.360 are they in a bad mood? And why is Josh 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:10.080 being so weird? 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:12.520 I don't think I'm being weird? Am I being? Am 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:15.479 I over selling it? I think so oh oh sorry. 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:17.400 It makes it sound like we all three were in 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:19.520 a big fist fight and then Jerry. 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:23.360 Had recorded right, She's like just jammed a Kleenex up 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:24.760 her nose to staunch the bleeding. 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:28.399 I am recovering a bit because we just got back 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:29.400 from New York City. 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:32.680 Dude, it has been a week, I know. So we 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:35.840 did show a show Sunday, a show Monday, and a 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:40.000 show Tuesday, all sold out at the Bellhouse, traveled home Wednesday, 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:42.479 and are recording today Thursday. 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:47.000 Yes, and I just want to say, there's no way 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:50.680 that people will ever hear Tuesday's episode because it was 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:52.480 the filthiest thing we've ever done on stage. 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:56.520 It was seriously, man, I don't know what got into us. 0:01:56.560 --> 0:02:00.920 I think it was night three of three, So that 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:04.480 is for the three hundred and fifty people in that room. Yeah, 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:05.920 I hope they enjoyed it. 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:08.280 It was fun. It was fun, and come on out. 0:02:08.320 --> 0:02:10.160 Whenever we do a live show, you never know if 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:12.200 we're just gonna be like, this one's not getting released, 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:15.120 let's just go crazy, you know. Especially it was a 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:16.400 twenty one and up show, which is. 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:18.440 Really well, well that's why we for sure why we 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:18.760 did it. 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:22.800 Yeah, that's what took the feedback off, you know, And 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:24.720 that is saying I think. 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:26.640 So put the feedbag on. Take it off. 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:30.280 Yeah, I guess so, I guess so it's not really, 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:33.880 but we'll just press forward. How about that. Let's do so, Chuck, 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:36.840 I know that you know this, but not everybody knows this. 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:42.520 I had a personal conversation with one Charles C. Mann, 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:46.399 who wrote my favorite book of all time fourteen ninety one, 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:50.480 that is correct, And I was talking to mister man 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:52.519 and he has a I was talking to him and 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:56.240 got a show coming out on Existential Risks eventually, but 0:02:56.760 --> 0:02:58.320 and he's going to be in it. It's just like 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:00.360 interviewed for it. But he has a book coming out 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:03.920 this January and it's called The Wizard and the Prophet. 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:04.600 Have you heard of it? 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:06.959 No? But did you just say that he's going to 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:09.520 be part of Existential Risks? 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:11.080 Yeah, he's an Interviewee. 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:12.200 That's fantastic. 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:15.040 Yeah, it's going to be pretty I was really psyched 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:16.399 to just be able to talk to him, and even 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:18.560 better than that, like you know, we were kind of 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:21.320 rapping for a few minutes beforehand, and it was just 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:25.400 as calm and casual as I had always like envisioned 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:26.120 talking to him. 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:26.920 That's amazing would be. 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:29.600 Yeah, it was a really really neat conversation but he 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:31.480 was telling me about the book he has coming out, 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:36.280 The Wizard and the Prophet, and it's basically about him 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:39.640 trying to find out how we can possibly, or even 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:45.400 if it is possible, sustain ten billion people on planet Earth. Yeah, 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:48.800 and not just sustained, meaning like you know, keeping him alive, 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:51.600 but how could we do it sustain a blee. And 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:54.240 he goes back and starts digging in and finds that 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:59.440 there's this long standing headbutt between the techno optimists, the 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:02.200 people who are like, well, we humans are smart enough 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:04.560 to invent our way out of any problem, yeah, and 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:07.040 the people who are like, no, we need to really 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:10.760 like mitigate a lot of things that we're doing right 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:14.120 now to make sure that we actually can keep doing 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:17.200 this for the foreseeable future. And part of it is 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:18.360 on Norman Borlog. 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:20.040 And see the Wizard. 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:24.280 He is the Wizard, that's actually absolutely right. The Prophet 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:28.440 is a guy named William vote Vogt. I believe his name, 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:32.000 and he I don't know nearly as much about him 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:34.120 as Norman Borlog, which is to say, I know basically 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:36.960 zero about him, but he's the Prophet, so I will 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:39.000 know all about him when the book comes out in January. 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.120 I'm psyched about it. But as I was researching this 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:46.600 permaculture article, I was like, you can really see that 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:50.960 same headbutt, that same push and pull between people who 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:53.880 are saying we need sustainability and other people are like, 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:56.279 we need to feed, you know, billions and billions of people, 0:04:56.920 --> 0:05:01.520 and that really comes together in the debate over permaculture 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:05.240 and whether it works or whether it is just just 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:07.200 a pie in the sky kind of idea. 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:11.360 Well, I have a little something to say. Okay, I 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:14.080 am a bit of an IRB. Well not a bit. 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:15.920 I'm an urban permaculturist. 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:17.120 That's awesome. 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.520 We had not me as like I don't know much 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:23.080 while I do know about this stuff now after researching it, 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:27.400 but we are redoing our front and backyards and we 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:30.960 hired a permaculture company to do so. 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:33.360 Really, the Permaculture Pros. 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:38.119 That's not their name, but maybe it should be. Uh yeah, 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:41.040 So we're we are like right in the middle of 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:47.599 making our small little piece of Atlanta a permaculture urban pum. 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:50.279 I know it's hard to say now that I'm saying 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:51.000 it out loud. 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:55.520 An urban perm habitat if you will, urb perm that's right. 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:58.919 So I'll be peppering, you know, little things here and there. 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:03.320 I think that would help a lot. Yeah, because permaculture, 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:06.040 as it turns out, and I didn't know really anything 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:09.599 about it until we started researching this. It is a 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:12.880 wooly idea. It's tough to pin down, which is really 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:18.799 weird because it's actually a set of design principles meant 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:23.360 to grow food for people in a way that's sustainable 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:27.520 and not harmful. And it basically stands in contradiction of 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:32.120 what you would consider like big modern agriculture, which is 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:35.160 we grow one kind of food and we squeeze as 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:37.479 much as we possibly can out of it from the 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:41.719 ground we have, using as much artificial resources as we 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:44.400 possibly need to increase our yield. 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:47.560 Yeah, And that's like people throw around the word sustainable 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:52.160 or unsustainable, and maybe people sometimes folks don't even stop 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:55.040 to think about what that means. Sustainable or I guess 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:58.600 we'll start with unsustainable. That means that you are you're 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:02.360 depleting resources around you and you are depending very much 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:08.239 on bringing in different resources to make that thing work, right, 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:11.600 Like you're not just using what's available, Like that's what 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:14.440 sustainable would be. You're using what's available. It all works 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:19.280 together to ideally sustain itself without saying, well, now I 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:21.960 need to bring in this thing from way over here 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:25.800 to make these three hundred acres of corn grow. 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:28.280 Yeah, I've got to go burn a bunch of fossil 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:32.720 fuels to create nitrogen based fertilizer, and it's not going 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:34.560 to attach to the soil very well, so a lot 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:37.200 of it will run off and be wasted, and even worse, 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:39.400 it'll end up in a pond, which will create an 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:43.200 algae bloom which sucks up all of the dissolved oxygen, 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:48.440 which creates a fish kill. That's unsustainable. And it's weird 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:50.960 because I hadn't really thought about that either, Chuck. But 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:54.720 as growing up, as like kids who are sensioned in 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:59.080 the nineties, you hear unsustainable and it's just basically in 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:04.400 your mind with evil, like almost intentionally malicious acts against 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:07.200 the earth, and that's just not necessarily the case. And 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:12.760 that's another thing about like Norman Borlog the Wizard. He 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:15.520 had the greatest of intentions, but you can also lay 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:19.160 at his feet a lot of the ecological problems we're 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:22.600 facing right now because of agriculture and the agricultural practices 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:25.760 he helped pioneer in order to feed a bunch of people. 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:30.560 So there's this tension between unsustainability and sustainability, but it's 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:33.160 also a tension between what's realistic and what's not. 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:35.240 You know, Yeah, it's definitely a little sticky. 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:36.600 It is a little sticky. 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:40.479 But perma culture basically is trying to create like a harmonious, 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:45.760 holistic approach to farming and whether it be a large 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:50.160 farm or like in my case, like an urban small 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:53.480 urban plot. And like I said, we'll kind of go 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:56.640 over both of those through my lens and then through 0:08:56.679 --> 0:09:00.240 the larger ideas of the farm. And it's it's not 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:02.520 like Robert Lamb wrote this article from Stuff to blow 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:04.360 your mind. He did a good job with it, always 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:08.240 does he does. But he does point out that you shouldn't. 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:11.640 It doesn't necessarily mean that you have to go back 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:13.880 to caveman days and like you have to live like 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:17.640 tiktook and scavenge the earth. He said, to think of 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:20.560 it in terms of a river, like you were a 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:25.000 boat floating down a river and you were sustained by 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:28.280 that river, but you are also navigating it as well 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:29.440 with your rudder. 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:31.800 And if you have to pee right now. It just 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:36.560 increased tenfold, that's right. So yeah, it's not like just 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:40.079 passively taking from the land what it has to offer. 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:43.600 There's still management of it, right, Oh yeah, But the 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:47.280 idea behind that management of it is managing the land 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:50.760 in a way that the land. 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:52.720 Is happy with. Yeah, kind of working with what you got. 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:55.240 Like you can walk past a dog that's just sitting 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:57.839 there looking at you and maybe you know, give it 0:09:57.880 --> 0:09:59.840 like a wink or something like that, and keep walking. 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:03.360 That's passive. But if you stop and scratch it behind 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:06.280 the ear, you're managing that dog in a way or 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:09.280 something like that. You're at least interacting with it more 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:11.840 and the dog likes it. You could also walk past 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:14.240 the dog and like poking in the ribs. Yeah, that's 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:16.679 interacting with it in a way that the dog wouldn't like. 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:20.920 Perma culture is the middle one, right, sure. So you're saying, hey, 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:22.480 I want to get something out of you, like a 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:24.160 good feeling, so I'm going to scratch it behind the 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:26.920 ear earth. And again, like you said, you're doing that 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:30.960 by trying to create a system, whether it's your little 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:34.920 plot of land or a full scale, industrial sized farm 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:38.679 in a way that it has. It's sustainable, meaning it 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:43.880 requires as few external inputs as possible. That's right, But sorry, 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.480 I just need to point it again. It's still being managed. 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:49.880 It's still being managed by you, just in a harmonious way. 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:52.079 Yeah. I think there is a word for the other 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:57.320 thing where you just just let everything do its thing. Right. Yeah, 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:02.160 that's nature, maybe like wild or something or rewilding. Have 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:02.960 we talked about that. 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:07.720 No, we never did. I'm probably wrong anyway, although we 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:10.440 also thought we didn't do a cat episode, So who 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:12.080 knows if we've talked about it before or not. 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:16.720 All right, so this all goes back to Australia and 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:21.319 see you in September of next year. Australia. Yep, right, yep, 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:23.160 get excited. 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:26.240 Oh man, you just sold us a million tickets with 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:32.640 that accent, buddy and New Zealand, so you gotta take 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:33.360 it better than that. 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:36.439 Well no, I'm super excited about going to New Zealand. Okay, 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:37.760 I didn't want to not mention. 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:39.280 That, you say in New Zealand. 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:44.479 In New Zealand. So in Australia in the nineteen seventies, 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:47.520 there were a couple of dudes named Bill Mullison and 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:51.880 David holmegrin and imagine they were sitting around smoking a 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:54.280 joint one night in the version that I have in 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:57.360 my head. Oh yeah, when they dreamed up the word 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:01.319 permaculture in nineteen seventy eight, which is basically what we've 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:04.160 been talking about. This is just put a word on it. 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:07.319 Actually two words, permanent and agriculture. 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:10.200 Right, good point. They said let's join those up and 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:14.120 he said right, and that was it. That's how it 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:18.240 went down. And it's a self sustaining alternative to like 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:21.000 what you were talking about, which is mass production of 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:24.200 a single crop. And there are three basic ethics to 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:28.440 the permaculture movement. Yeah, care for the earth, care for 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:32.080 the people, and then setting limits on population and consumption. 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:37.199 Right. And so Mollison I believe, was a professor at 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:41.240 the time and Holmgren was his student, and they split 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:45.200 within a few years. They had creative differences, I guess 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:49.040 you could kind of call it. They both like pursued permaculture, 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:53.720 but through different ways. So Mollison is frequently accused or 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:57.040 was I think he may have passed accused of being 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:04.800 kind of a dogmatic, charismatic egomaniac maybe where it was 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:09.600 like it's more I waey or the haw way. And 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:13.000 then that extended to even principles of permaculture, right, like 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:15.560 if he said it, it was just that was just true, 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:20.360 whereas Hommegren apparently took a little more of a pragmatic 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:24.280 approach to studying it, finding out the best practices, discarding 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:26.480 the ones that didn't work, even if they were like 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:32.319 precious to everybody, including the entire permaculture movement, and movement 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:34.840 is actually the right word, because there is like this 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:40.959 definite well like Malison put the cult in permaculture, you 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:44.320 know what I'm saying, Like, there's definitely an adherency to 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:47.480 it that's kind of fervent. You know that the whole 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:52.320 movement gets criticized for rightfully or wrongly. Yeah, but they're 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:55.280 both kind of I think the fact that they did 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:59.000 split probably added to this field even more because there's 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:02.679 two different courses of study or of thinking about it 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:06.160 at least that were able to develop in tandem. 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:08.920 Yeah, and this stuff is nothing new. They didn't invent 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:12.480 this idea because Tuk took in the Gang way back 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.920 in the ancient days did things like this. They worked 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:18.840 with what they had. They didn't have four hundred acres 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:22.480 of corn. They did forest farming, they had crop rotation, 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:26.880 they composted, they had multiple crops, and they were not 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:31.200 just out to be leading pioneers and environmentalism. That was 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:33.800 just the way you work the earth back then. And 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:36.800 that's a lot of what permaculture is all about is 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:41.920 returning to this idea of just sort of doing it 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:46.000 the smart right way. And again, this is probably not 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:48.280 going to be the thing that feeds the world, but 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:51.920 that's not to say you can't have a permaculture movement 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:54.200 in farms, in urban permaculture going on. 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:56.880 Well, that's one of the things that it gets criticized 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:01.360 about is that people who our big time adherents of 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:06.040 permaculture do tend to say, like, uh, yeah, this is 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:07.840 this is what we need to feed the world, and 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:10.400 if we don't do this, then there's not going to 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:13.200 be people around to feed because we're going to wreck 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:15.480 the earth and die from climate change. 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:18.080 Yeah. I get that, but I think I come from 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:20.840 the like reality camp, and you're not going to undo 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:26.840 conventional modern farming. You're not gonna just completely supplant that anymore. 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:27.720 It's kind of too late. 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:31.400 I agree with you. I am of the same mindset. 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:36.480 I do think though, that you these practices or most 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:39.320 of them, should be incorporated as best as possible. 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:40.200 Sure, that'd be great. 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:44.080 So I think there's a happy medium between you know, big, 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:51.720 big time monoculture agriculture and pure permaculture, just because they're 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:55.280 both probably unsustainable for what we need, which is to 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:57.160 feed a bunch of people in a way that doesn't 0:15:57.160 --> 0:15:57.760 wreck the earth. 0:15:57.880 --> 0:15:58.240 Agreed. 0:15:58.640 --> 0:15:59.400 Yeah, I'm with you, man. 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:02.040 Should we take a sure, all right, We're gonna take 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:05.120 a little, uh, a little pause for the cause and 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:07.680 then come back. That was so corny and sounds like 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:10.720 our radio DJ. It was great, and then come back 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:13.760 and talk about design principles of permaculture right after this. 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:36.240 Okay, you back, We're back. Are we back? 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:37.360 I'm back? 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.080 Okay, I'm back to Jerry. You're back. 0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:41.480 She's back, She's back. 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:46.240 So, like I said early on, Chuck, the permaculture is 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:48.480 a little it's a wooly it's a wooly idea. There's 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:51.000 so many different definitions of it, and as a results, 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:55.840 its image kind of suffers in the mind of rational skeptics. Right, Yes, 0:16:56.440 --> 0:17:01.560 but I did find one one definition of it that 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:03.800 I thought really got the whole point across hit me. 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:09.840 The conscious design and maintenance of agriculturally productive systems which 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:14.480 have the diversity, stability, and resilience of natural ecosystems. That's 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:17.199 a big one. There's a second half even it is 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:23.000 the harmonious integration of the landscape with people providing their food, energy, shelter, 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:26.320 and other material and non material needs in a sustainable way. 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:27.800 That is a great definition. 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:31.920 I agree wholeheartedly. And I'm not sure who the actual 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:34.600 person who said or wrote it was because it was 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:38.280 misattributed to at least three different people. But regardless, it's 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:39.000 a great definition. 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:40.400 We should just throw your name in there too. 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:43.720 Sure, we'll say I said it. So you said you 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:46.840 brought up the three basic ethics, right, the care for earth, 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:49.320 care for people, and setting limits on population. 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:49.760 Correct. 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:51.280 Feel like we should kind of go over those a 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:53.040 little in depth, don't you think. 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:58.000 Yeah, care for earth is it's not just like a 0:17:58.000 --> 0:17:59.880 lot of this is about plants, of course, but it's 0:17:59.880 --> 0:18:04.240 also animals and insects and how the air moves through 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:08.720 the area, and minerals in the earth, and it's basically 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:14.440 respecting all of the things within the ecosystem. Right, How's that. 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:19.120 I think that's great care for people, right. So basically 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:23.920 that's saying like that there's an importance to community. It's 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:27.239 every person isn't just an island, right, and that this 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:30.800 is a big one too, that access to resources is 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:35.160 a human right and it's easy to take that for granted. 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:39.280 You know where in places where you have easy access 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:43.679 to land or water or something like that, but in 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:49.000 places as diverse as Flint, Michigan, or Central America, they're 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:55.639 the access to good stuff like water is highly restricted 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.280 or the water is just not good. So the idea 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:02.840 that everybody's should have easy, cheap, if not free, access 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:06.600 to something like clean water is that's a that's a 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:08.920 big one. That's it's kind of radical in a weird 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:09.880 way these days. 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:12.680 Yeah. And as far as limits on population and consumption, 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:17.080 Robert puts it as recognizing how you have to reinvest 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:22.760 money in surplus labor and energy into caring for the planet. 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:24.960 Like it's it's it takes. 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:29.440 Work, right, So those are like the three ethics. That's 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:31.919 not how you go permaculture. That's just kind of the 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:37.199 basis for the designs to permaculture, right, correct. And I 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:41.400 think you said that this is this is not new, right, 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:44.200 this is something that's been around for a very long time. 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:47.200 Or these some of these ideas or the sustainable practices 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:52.640 are adopted from like generations and generations of proven techniques, right, yes, 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:56.159 which is pretty interesting if you ask me. That's another 0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:58.520 thing too, if you if you have not read have 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:00.000 you read fourteen ninety one yet? 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:00.520 Nope? 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:04.000 Oh man, you have to read it. It talks about 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:07.480 this kind of stuff where like they from just looking 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:11.760 into it, they've they've found that there's all these sophisticated 0:20:12.640 --> 0:20:16.240 land management techniques that were just totally lost to time 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:20.760 until archaeologists started discovering them. And at first they didn't 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:23.479 even realize what they were looking at, and they'd be like, well, 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:26.080 there's a lot of kind of weird hills in this area. 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:29.000 It's otherwise pretty flat. And then they realized, oh wait, 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:32.840 this is entire system of berms that used to be planted, 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:36.320 and in between the berms were aquaculture ponds where they 0:20:36.440 --> 0:20:39.560 raised fish, and they were just doing all this sophisticated 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:42.399 stuff that no one had any idea. That book is 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:44.879 just all about chasing that stuff down and figuring it out. 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:49.160 So good Chuck. One day you'll read it right, of course. Yeah. 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:53.080 So before the break, I promised some design principles and 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:57.000 there are believe like ten of these in our article. 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:01.800 And it breaks down like this, and this is this 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:04.639 is talking about a farm, but we have incorporated in 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:07.200 this company that's come in as incorporating these most of 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:10.520 these same principles within like a place as small as 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:13.960 our backyard, for instance, zones. We have divided our yard 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:17.760 up into zones now. And basically in the case of 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:20.160 a farm, it's a little bit different. They divide areas 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:25.440 into zones based on based on the in all this stuff, 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:28.320 it's just sort of makes sense and it's all seems 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:30.600 like it would be intuitive and how Tiktook would have 0:21:30.640 --> 0:21:33.719 done it. So it divides into zones based on how 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:36.639 much attention certain things need on the farm and what 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:39.480 does it require out of people in the different areas. 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:42.040 And so if you think of it as a circle, 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:45.560 you got your farm in the center. So obviously the 0:21:45.560 --> 0:21:47.919 stuff that needed the most attention would be closest to 0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:52.240 the center where the people are. And then as you 0:21:52.320 --> 0:21:57.520 go out and out, the activity decreases like the human activity, 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:01.080 and things are allowed like trees to grow a little 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:01.600 more wildly. 0:22:02.520 --> 0:22:04.800 Right, Yeah, So like the zone is kind of like 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:10.040 ripples in a pond or something, right there, concentric circles, yeah, 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:12.399 radiating from the center. And I guess the center is 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:17.479 the actual farmer in this case, your house. Uh yeah, okay, 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:22.280 so that's understandable enough. And then you look into something 0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:26.199