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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Think Spring is here with our Think Spring playlist,

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Speaker 1: and it's Chuck here to introduce today's episode. What's permaculture

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Speaker 1: all about? Permaculture is a pretty great thing, and it's

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Speaker 1: you know, if you don't know anything about it, this

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Speaker 1: can teach you all about it and it may just

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Speaker 1: change the way you live your life. There at yourius,

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Speaker 1: so give it a try.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff you should Know from HowStuffWorks dot com.

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Speaker 3: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and

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Speaker 3: there's Charles w. Chipper, Chuck Bryant and there's Jerry Rowland,

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Speaker 3: and we're all in great moods everybody, because it's stuff

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Speaker 3: you should know. Time. Everything else just falls to the

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Speaker 3: wayside when we record stuff you should know. It's just

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Speaker 3: it's the reason we love doing it. Still, after a

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Speaker 3: thousand episodes.

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Speaker 1: You realize every single listener right now is thinking, why

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Speaker 1: are they in a bad mood? And why is Josh

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Speaker 1: being so weird?

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Speaker 3: I don't think I'm being weird? Am I being? Am

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Speaker 3: I over selling it? I think so oh oh sorry.

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Speaker 1: It makes it sound like we all three were in

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Speaker 1: a big fist fight and then Jerry.

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Speaker 3: Had recorded right, She's like just jammed a Kleenex up

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Speaker 3: her nose to staunch the bleeding.

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Speaker 1: I am recovering a bit because we just got back

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Speaker 1: from New York City.

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Speaker 3: Dude, it has been a week, I know. So we

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Speaker 3: did show a show Sunday, a show Monday, and a

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Speaker 3: show Tuesday, all sold out at the Bellhouse, traveled home Wednesday,

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Speaker 3: and are recording today Thursday.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and I just want to say, there's no way

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Speaker 1: that people will ever hear Tuesday's episode because it was

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Speaker 1: the filthiest thing we've ever done on stage.

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Speaker 3: It was seriously, man, I don't know what got into us.

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Speaker 1: I think it was night three of three, So that

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Speaker 1: is for the three hundred and fifty people in that room. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I hope they enjoyed it.

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Speaker 3: It was fun. It was fun, and come on out.

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Speaker 3: Whenever we do a live show, you never know if

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Speaker 3: we're just gonna be like, this one's not getting released,

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Speaker 3: let's just go crazy, you know. Especially it was a

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Speaker 3: twenty one and up show, which is.

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Speaker 1: Really well, well that's why we for sure why we

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Speaker 1: did it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what took the feedback off, you know, And

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Speaker 3: that is saying I think.

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Speaker 1: So put the feedbag on. Take it off.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess so, I guess so it's not really,

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Speaker 3: but we'll just press forward. How about that. Let's do so, Chuck,

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Speaker 3: I know that you know this, but not everybody knows this.

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Speaker 3: I had a personal conversation with one Charles C. Mann,

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Speaker 3: who wrote my favorite book of all time fourteen ninety one,

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Speaker 3: that is correct, And I was talking to mister man

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Speaker 3: and he has a I was talking to him and

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Speaker 3: got a show coming out on Existential Risks eventually, but

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Speaker 3: and he's going to be in it. It's just like

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Speaker 3: interviewed for it. But he has a book coming out

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Speaker 3: this January and it's called The Wizard and the Prophet.

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Speaker 3: Have you heard of it?

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Speaker 1: No? But did you just say that he's going to

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Speaker 1: be part of Existential Risks?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he's an Interviewee.

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Speaker 1: That's fantastic.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's going to be pretty I was really psyched

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Speaker 3: to just be able to talk to him, and even

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Speaker 3: better than that, like you know, we were kind of

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Speaker 3: rapping for a few minutes beforehand, and it was just

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Speaker 3: as calm and casual as I had always like envisioned

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Speaker 3: talking to him.

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Speaker 1: That's amazing would be.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a really really neat conversation but he

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Speaker 3: was telling me about the book he has coming out,

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Speaker 3: The Wizard and the Prophet, and it's basically about him

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Speaker 3: trying to find out how we can possibly, or even

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Speaker 3: if it is possible, sustain ten billion people on planet Earth. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and not just sustained, meaning like you know, keeping him alive,

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Speaker 3: but how could we do it sustain a blee. And

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Speaker 3: he goes back and starts digging in and finds that

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Speaker 3: there's this long standing headbutt between the techno optimists, the

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Speaker 3: people who are like, well, we humans are smart enough

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Speaker 3: to invent our way out of any problem, yeah, and

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Speaker 3: the people who are like, no, we need to really

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Speaker 3: like mitigate a lot of things that we're doing right

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Speaker 3: now to make sure that we actually can keep doing

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Speaker 3: this for the foreseeable future. And part of it is

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Speaker 3: on Norman Borlog.

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Speaker 1: And see the Wizard.

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Speaker 3: He is the Wizard, that's actually absolutely right. The Prophet

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Speaker 3: is a guy named William vote Vogt. I believe his name,

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Speaker 3: and he I don't know nearly as much about him

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Speaker 3: as Norman Borlog, which is to say, I know basically

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Speaker 3: zero about him, but he's the Prophet, so I will

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Speaker 3: know all about him when the book comes out in January.

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Speaker 3: I'm psyched about it. But as I was researching this

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Speaker 3: permaculture article, I was like, you can really see that

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Speaker 3: same headbutt, that same push and pull between people who

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Speaker 3: are saying we need sustainability and other people are like,

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Speaker 3: we need to feed, you know, billions and billions of people,

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Speaker 3: and that really comes together in the debate over permaculture

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Speaker 3: and whether it works or whether it is just just

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Speaker 3: a pie in the sky kind of idea.

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Speaker 1: Well, I have a little something to say. Okay, I

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Speaker 1: am a bit of an IRB. Well not a bit.

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Speaker 1: I'm an urban permaculturist.

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Speaker 3: That's awesome.

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Speaker 1: We had not me as like I don't know much

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Speaker 1: while I do know about this stuff now after researching it,

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Speaker 1: but we are redoing our front and backyards and we

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Speaker 1: hired a permaculture company to do so.

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Speaker 3: Really, the Permaculture Pros.

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Speaker 1: That's not their name, but maybe it should be. Uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: So we're we are like right in the middle of

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Speaker 1: making our small little piece of Atlanta a permaculture urban pum.

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Speaker 3: I know it's hard to say now that I'm saying

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Speaker 3: it out loud.

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Speaker 1: An urban perm habitat if you will, urb perm that's right.

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Speaker 1: So I'll be peppering, you know, little things here and there.

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Speaker 3: I think that would help a lot. Yeah, because permaculture,

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Speaker 3: as it turns out, and I didn't know really anything

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Speaker 3: about it until we started researching this. It is a

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Speaker 3: wooly idea. It's tough to pin down, which is really

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Speaker 3: weird because it's actually a set of design principles meant

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Speaker 3: to grow food for people in a way that's sustainable

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Speaker 3: and not harmful. And it basically stands in contradiction of

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Speaker 3: what you would consider like big modern agriculture, which is

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Speaker 3: we grow one kind of food and we squeeze as

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Speaker 3: much as we possibly can out of it from the

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Speaker 3: ground we have, using as much artificial resources as we

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Speaker 3: possibly need to increase our yield.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's like people throw around the word sustainable

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Speaker 1: or unsustainable, and maybe people sometimes folks don't even stop

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Speaker 1: to think about what that means. Sustainable or I guess

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Speaker 1: we'll start with unsustainable. That means that you are you're

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Speaker 1: depleting resources around you and you are depending very much

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Speaker 1: on bringing in different resources to make that thing work, right,

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Speaker 1: Like you're not just using what's available, Like that's what

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Speaker 1: sustainable would be. You're using what's available. It all works

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Speaker 1: together to ideally sustain itself without saying, well, now I

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Speaker 1: need to bring in this thing from way over here

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Speaker 1: to make these three hundred acres of corn grow.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I've got to go burn a bunch of fossil

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Speaker 3: fuels to create nitrogen based fertilizer, and it's not going

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Speaker 3: to attach to the soil very well, so a lot

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Speaker 3: of it will run off and be wasted, and even worse,

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Speaker 3: it'll end up in a pond, which will create an

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Speaker 3: algae bloom which sucks up all of the dissolved oxygen,

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Speaker 3: which creates a fish kill. That's unsustainable. And it's weird

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Speaker 3: because I hadn't really thought about that either, Chuck. But

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Speaker 3: as growing up, as like kids who are sensioned in

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Speaker 3: the nineties, you hear unsustainable and it's just basically in

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Speaker 3: your mind with evil, like almost intentionally malicious acts against

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Speaker 3: the earth, and that's just not necessarily the case. And

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Speaker 3: that's another thing about like Norman Borlog the Wizard. He

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Speaker 3: had the greatest of intentions, but you can also lay

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Speaker 3: at his feet a lot of the ecological problems we're

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Speaker 3: facing right now because of agriculture and the agricultural practices

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Speaker 3: he helped pioneer in order to feed a bunch of people.

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Speaker 3: So there's this tension between unsustainability and sustainability, but it's

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Speaker 3: also a tension between what's realistic and what's not.

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Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, it's definitely a little sticky.

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Speaker 3: It is a little sticky.

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Speaker 1: But perma culture basically is trying to create like a harmonious,

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Speaker 1: holistic approach to farming and whether it be a large

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Speaker 1: farm or like in my case, like an urban small

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Speaker 1: urban plot. And like I said, we'll kind of go

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Speaker 1: over both of those through my lens and then through

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Speaker 1: the larger ideas of the farm. And it's it's not

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Speaker 1: like Robert Lamb wrote this article from Stuff to blow

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Speaker 1: your mind. He did a good job with it, always

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Speaker 1: does he does. But he does point out that you shouldn't.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't necessarily mean that you have to go back

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Speaker 1: to caveman days and like you have to live like

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Speaker 1: tiktook and scavenge the earth. He said, to think of

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Speaker 1: it in terms of a river, like you were a

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Speaker 1: boat floating down a river and you were sustained by

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Speaker 1: that river, but you are also navigating it as well

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Speaker 1: with your rudder.

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Speaker 3: And if you have to pee right now. It just

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Speaker 3: increased tenfold, that's right. So yeah, it's not like just

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Speaker 3: passively taking from the land what it has to offer.

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Speaker 3: There's still management of it, right, Oh yeah, But the

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Speaker 3: idea behind that management of it is managing the land

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Speaker 3: in a way that the land.

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Speaker 1: Is happy with. Yeah, kind of working with what you got.

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Speaker 3: Like you can walk past a dog that's just sitting

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Speaker 3: there looking at you and maybe you know, give it

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Speaker 3: like a wink or something like that, and keep walking.

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Speaker 3: That's passive. But if you stop and scratch it behind

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Speaker 3: the ear, you're managing that dog in a way or

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Speaker 3: something like that. You're at least interacting with it more

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Speaker 3: and the dog likes it. You could also walk past

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Speaker 3: the dog and like poking in the ribs. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 3: interacting with it in a way that the dog wouldn't like.

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Speaker 3: Perma culture is the middle one, right, sure. So you're saying, hey,

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Speaker 3: I want to get something out of you, like a

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Speaker 3: good feeling, so I'm going to scratch it behind the

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Speaker 3: ear earth. And again, like you said, you're doing that

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Speaker 3: by trying to create a system, whether it's your little

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Speaker 3: plot of land or a full scale, industrial sized farm

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Speaker 3: in a way that it has. It's sustainable, meaning it

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Speaker 3: requires as few external inputs as possible. That's right, But sorry,

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Speaker 3: I just need to point it again. It's still being managed.

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Speaker 3: It's still being managed by you, just in a harmonious way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think there is a word for the other

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Speaker 1: thing where you just just let everything do its thing. Right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's nature, maybe like wild or something or rewilding. Have

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Speaker 1: we talked about that.

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Speaker 3: No, we never did. I'm probably wrong anyway, although we

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Speaker 3: also thought we didn't do a cat episode, So who

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Speaker 3: knows if we've talked about it before or not.

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Speaker 1: All right, so this all goes back to Australia and

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Speaker 1: see you in September of next year. Australia. Yep, right, yep,

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Speaker 1: get excited.

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Speaker 3: Oh man, you just sold us a million tickets with

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Speaker 3: that accent, buddy and New Zealand, so you gotta take

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Speaker 3: it better than that.

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Speaker 1: Well no, I'm super excited about going to New Zealand. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to not mention.

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Speaker 3: That, you say in New Zealand.

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Speaker 1: In New Zealand. So in Australia in the nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 1: there were a couple of dudes named Bill Mullison and

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Speaker 1: David holmegrin and imagine they were sitting around smoking a

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Speaker 1: joint one night in the version that I have in

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Speaker 1: my head. Oh yeah, when they dreamed up the word

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Speaker 1: permaculture in nineteen seventy eight, which is basically what we've

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Speaker 1: been talking about. This is just put a word on it.

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Speaker 3: Actually two words, permanent and agriculture.

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Speaker 1: Right, good point. They said let's join those up and

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Speaker 1: he said right, and that was it. That's how it

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Speaker 1: went down. And it's a self sustaining alternative to like

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Speaker 1: what you were talking about, which is mass production of

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Speaker 1: a single crop. And there are three basic ethics to

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Speaker 1: the permaculture movement. Yeah, care for the earth, care for

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Speaker 1: the people, and then setting limits on population and consumption.

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Speaker 3: Right. And so Mollison I believe, was a professor at

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Speaker 3: the time and Holmgren was his student, and they split

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Speaker 3: within a few years. They had creative differences, I guess

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Speaker 3: you could kind of call it. They both like pursued permaculture,

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Speaker 3: but through different ways. So Mollison is frequently accused or

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Speaker 3: was I think he may have passed accused of being

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Speaker 3: kind of a dogmatic, charismatic egomaniac maybe where it was

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Speaker 3: like it's more I waey or the haw way. And

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Speaker 3: then that extended to even principles of permaculture, right, like

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Speaker 3: if he said it, it was just that was just true,

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Speaker 3: whereas Hommegren apparently took a little more of a pragmatic

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Speaker 3: approach to studying it, finding out the best practices, discarding

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Speaker 3: the ones that didn't work, even if they were like

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Speaker 3: precious to everybody, including the entire permaculture movement, and movement

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Speaker 3: is actually the right word, because there is like this

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Speaker 3: definite well like Malison put the cult in permaculture, you

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Speaker 3: know what I'm saying, Like, there's definitely an adherency to

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Speaker 3: it that's kind of fervent. You know that the whole

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Speaker 3: movement gets criticized for rightfully or wrongly. Yeah, but they're

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Speaker 3: both kind of I think the fact that they did

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Speaker 3: split probably added to this field even more because there's

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Speaker 3: two different courses of study or of thinking about it

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Speaker 3: at least that were able to develop in tandem.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and this stuff is nothing new. They didn't invent

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Speaker 1: this idea because Tuk took in the Gang way back

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Speaker 1: in the ancient days did things like this. They worked

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Speaker 1: with what they had. They didn't have four hundred acres

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Speaker 1: of corn. They did forest farming, they had crop rotation,

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Speaker 1: they composted, they had multiple crops, and they were not

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Speaker 1: just out to be leading pioneers and environmentalism. That was

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Speaker 1: just the way you work the earth back then. And

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Speaker 1: that's a lot of what permaculture is all about is

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Speaker 1: returning to this idea of just sort of doing it

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Speaker 1: the smart right way. And again, this is probably not

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Speaker 1: going to be the thing that feeds the world, but

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Speaker 1: that's not to say you can't have a permaculture movement

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Speaker 1: in farms, in urban permaculture going on.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's one of the things that it gets criticized

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Speaker 3: about is that people who our big time adherents of

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Speaker 3: permaculture do tend to say, like, uh, yeah, this is

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Speaker 3: this is what we need to feed the world, and

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Speaker 3: if we don't do this, then there's not going to

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Speaker 3: be people around to feed because we're going to wreck

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Speaker 3: the earth and die from climate change.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I get that, but I think I come from

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Speaker 1: the like reality camp, and you're not going to undo

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Speaker 1: conventional modern farming. You're not gonna just completely supplant that anymore.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of too late.

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Speaker 3: I agree with you. I am of the same mindset.

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Speaker 3: I do think though, that you these practices or most

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Speaker 3: of them, should be incorporated as best as possible.

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Speaker 1: Sure, that'd be great.

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Speaker 3: So I think there's a happy medium between you know, big,

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Speaker 3: big time monoculture agriculture and pure permaculture, just because they're

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Speaker 3: both probably unsustainable for what we need, which is to

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Speaker 3: feed a bunch of people in a way that doesn't

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Speaker 3: wreck the earth.

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Speaker 1: Agreed.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm with you, man.

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Speaker 1: Should we take a sure, all right, We're gonna take

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Speaker 1: a little, uh, a little pause for the cause and

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Speaker 1: then come back. That was so corny and sounds like

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Speaker 1: our radio DJ. It was great, and then come back

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Speaker 1: and talk about design principles of permaculture right after this.

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Speaker 3: Okay, you back, We're back. Are we back?

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Speaker 1: I'm back?

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Speaker 3: Okay, I'm back to Jerry. You're back.

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Speaker 1: She's back, She's back.

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Speaker 3: So, like I said early on, Chuck, the permaculture is

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Speaker 3: a little it's a wooly it's a wooly idea. There's

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Speaker 3: so many different definitions of it, and as a results,

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Speaker 3: its image kind of suffers in the mind of rational skeptics. Right, Yes,

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Speaker 3: but I did find one one definition of it that

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Speaker 3: I thought really got the whole point across hit me.

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Speaker 3: The conscious design and maintenance of agriculturally productive systems which

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Speaker 3: have the diversity, stability, and resilience of natural ecosystems. That's

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Speaker 3: a big one. There's a second half even it is

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Speaker 3: the harmonious integration of the landscape with people providing their food, energy, shelter,

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Speaker 3: and other material and non material needs in a sustainable way.

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Speaker 1: That is a great definition.

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Speaker 3: I agree wholeheartedly. And I'm not sure who the actual

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Speaker 3: person who said or wrote it was because it was

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Speaker 3: misattributed to at least three different people. But regardless, it's

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Speaker 3: a great definition.

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Speaker 1: We should just throw your name in there too.

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Speaker 3: Sure, we'll say I said it. So you said you

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Speaker 3: brought up the three basic ethics, right, the care for earth,

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Speaker 3: care for people, and setting limits on population.

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Speaker 1: Correct.

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Speaker 3: Feel like we should kind of go over those a

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Speaker 3: little in depth, don't you think.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, care for earth is it's not just like a

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Speaker 1: lot of this is about plants, of course, but it's

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Speaker 1: also animals and insects and how the air moves through

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Speaker 1: the area, and minerals in the earth, and it's basically

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Speaker 1: respecting all of the things within the ecosystem. Right, How's that.

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Speaker 3: I think that's great care for people, right. So basically

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Speaker 3: that's saying like that there's an importance to community. It's

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Speaker 3: every person isn't just an island, right, and that this

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Speaker 3: is a big one too, that access to resources is

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Speaker 3: a human right and it's easy to take that for granted.

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Speaker 3: You know where in places where you have easy access

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Speaker 3: to land or water or something like that, but in

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Speaker 3: places as diverse as Flint, Michigan, or Central America, they're

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Speaker 3: the access to good stuff like water is highly restricted

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Speaker 3: or the water is just not good. So the idea

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Speaker 3: that everybody's should have easy, cheap, if not free, access

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Speaker 3: to something like clean water is that's a that's a

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Speaker 3: big one. That's it's kind of radical in a weird

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Speaker 3: way these days.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And as far as limits on population and consumption,

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Speaker 1: Robert puts it as recognizing how you have to reinvest

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Speaker 1: money in surplus labor and energy into caring for the planet.

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Speaker 1: Like it's it's it takes.

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Speaker 3: Work, right, So those are like the three ethics. That's

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Speaker 3: not how you go permaculture. That's just kind of the

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Speaker 3: basis for the designs to permaculture, right, correct. And I

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Speaker 3: think you said that this is this is not new, right,

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Speaker 3: this is something that's been around for a very long time.

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Speaker 3: Or these some of these ideas or the sustainable practices

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Speaker 3: are adopted from like generations and generations of proven techniques, right, yes,

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Speaker 3: which is pretty interesting if you ask me. That's another

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Speaker 3: thing too, if you if you have not read have

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Speaker 3: you read fourteen ninety one yet?

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Speaker 1: Nope?

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Speaker 3: Oh man, you have to read it. It talks about

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Speaker 3: this kind of stuff where like they from just looking

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Speaker 3: into it, they've they've found that there's all these sophisticated

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Speaker 3: land management techniques that were just totally lost to time

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Speaker 3: until archaeologists started discovering them. And at first they didn't

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Speaker 3: even realize what they were looking at, and they'd be like, well,

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of kind of weird hills in this area.

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Speaker 3: It's otherwise pretty flat. And then they realized, oh wait,

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Speaker 3: this is entire system of berms that used to be planted,

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Speaker 3: and in between the berms were aquaculture ponds where they

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Speaker 3: raised fish, and they were just doing all this sophisticated

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Speaker 3: stuff that no one had any idea. That book is

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Speaker 3: just all about chasing that stuff down and figuring it out.

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Speaker 3: So good Chuck. One day you'll read it right, of course. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So before the break, I promised some design principles and

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Speaker 1: there are believe like ten of these in our article.

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Speaker 1: And it breaks down like this, and this is this

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Speaker 1: is talking about a farm, but we have incorporated in

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Speaker 1: this company that's come in as incorporating these most of

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Speaker 1: these same principles within like a place as small as

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Speaker 1: our backyard, for instance, zones. We have divided our yard

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Speaker 1: up into zones now. And basically in the case of

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Speaker 1: a farm, it's a little bit different. They divide areas

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Speaker 1: into zones based on based on the in all this stuff,

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Speaker 1: it's just sort of makes sense and it's all seems

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Speaker 1: like it would be intuitive and how Tiktook would have

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Speaker 1: done it. So it divides into zones based on how

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Speaker 1: much attention certain things need on the farm and what

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Speaker 1: does it require out of people in the different areas.

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Speaker 1: And so if you think of it as a circle,

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Speaker 1: you got your farm in the center. So obviously the

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Speaker 1: stuff that needed the most attention would be closest to

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Speaker 1: the center where the people are. And then as you

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Speaker 1: go out and out, the activity decreases like the human activity,

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Speaker 1: and things are allowed like trees to grow a little

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Speaker 1: more wildly.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, So like the zone is kind of like

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Speaker 3: ripples in a pond or something, right there, concentric circles, yeah,

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Speaker 3: radiating from the center. And I guess the center is

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Speaker 3: the actual farmer in this case, your house. Uh yeah, okay,

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Speaker 3: so that's understandable enough. And then you look into something

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Speaker 3: called sectors, and that's kind of similar, it seems like,

402
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Speaker 3: but it's actually not. With sectors. Again, the center of

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Speaker 3: the whole, the whole permaculture land or whatever, is the

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Speaker 3: farm where the people live or whatever. And then the

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Speaker 3: the zone the sectors radiate outwards, so the whole thing

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Speaker 3: is one big circle around the center, but this time

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Speaker 3: it's sliced into like like pizza slices.

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Speaker 1: Basically, all right, I'm hungry enough.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So but with that, so that doesn't mean like

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Speaker 3: you do sectors or zones. These are two different ways

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Speaker 3: of looking at the land that will overlay one another. Right,

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Speaker 3: And I've seen a couple of places that recommend if

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Speaker 3: you're setting up a permaculture farm, you want to spend

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Speaker 3: basically an entire year doing nothing but observing. Don't plant anything,

415
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Speaker 3: don't cut anything down, don't dig upond, don't do anything

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Speaker 3: like that, just observe, figure out where the sun is

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Speaker 3: at different parts of the year, where does the wind

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Speaker 3: come from, where does the water go. Are there pollutants

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Speaker 3: that come onto the property that you need to to,

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Speaker 3: you know, manage where do the animals, Like if there's

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Speaker 3: deer that come in and eat the garden, like, where

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Speaker 3: would they be coming from? And so that's what you

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Speaker 3: base the sectors on, and then that creates kind of

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Speaker 3: like this underlying map beneath the zones. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 3: Okay? And I got that one right, Yeah, I think so? Okay.

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Speaker 1: I mean I'm sure a permaculture expert would say, oh boys, right.

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Speaker 1: Relative locations another important part of permaculture. That is basically

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Speaker 1: designing things and again in a way that makes sense

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Speaker 1: relative to one another. So the great example that Robert

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Speaker 1: gives is is planning a crop downhill from a pond.

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Speaker 1: That way it's downhill, you don't need to install a

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Speaker 1: pump system. The whole idea of sustainability and so if

434
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 1: you can have the stuff you need to water downhill

435
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 1: from your water, then you have just created a sustainable environment.

436
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:37,160
Speaker 3: Right, And that one is there's it's an actual design principle,

437
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 3: like David Holmgren came up with twelve of them. One

438
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 3: of them was called integrate rather than segregate, and that

439
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:44,439
Speaker 3: one's definitely part of that.

440
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 1: That's right.

441
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 3: There's also having single elements with multiple functions, right, Yes,

442
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 3: So going back to that, like a pond example, a

443
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 3: pond also not only serves as a source for irrigation,

444
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 3: but it's also a water source for your live stock,

445
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 3: and depending on where you put it, it also acts

446
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 3: as a barrier between your live stock and the edge

447
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 3: of your property.

448
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you don't even need a fence because cows

449
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 1: aren't going to swim across the pond.

450
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 3: No, you try to find one doing it, they won't

451
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 3: do it.

452
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 1: Or a hedge, a hedge lovely hedge connect as a

453
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: wind block, things like.

454
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 3: That, right, And it can also produce seeds that your

455
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 3: chicken seed.

456
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 1: Right right, or shade if you need shade.

457
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 3: Right, and so all that I mean that just makes

458
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 3: total sense. Of course you want to do that. But

459
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 3: when you stop and think about the fact that they

460
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 3: don't do this on big modern farms, like this stuff

461
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 3: is not that's just wasted area where you could be

462
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,120
Speaker 3: planting more corn. You know, what I mean.

463
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they don't do Most people don't think about

464
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: this when they're designing their home backyards either. They want

465
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: they just say this looks pretty. That looks pretty, and

466
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 1: it may be laid out in such a way that

467
00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 1: it's completely unharmonious and working against each other at times. Right,

468
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 1: why is that thing dying? It's so pretty? It's like, well,

469
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 1: it's not, it's not where it should be.

470
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 3: Another permaculture principle that stands in stark opposition to monoculture

471
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 3: is having a single thing have just one function, or

472
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 3: have okay, a bunch of different things serving as failsafes

473
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 3: to one another. You see what I'm saying. Right, So,

474
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 3: like that pond can also provide water, right, so it's

475
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 3: a it's a water reservoir. But you may also have

476
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 3: rain barrels on site as well. So you have all

477
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 3: these different things serving multiple functions but also serving backups

478
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 3: to the functions that they share with one another. And again,

479
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 3: this is the idea that you're doing this if you

480
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 3: take the time to diversify, Like this is where the

481
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 3: idea that you you shouldn't put all of your eggs

482
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 3: in one basket. It came from the farm. Yeah, and

483
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 3: this is this, like some of these principles are just

484
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 3: getting back to that very simple maxim which is you

485
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 3: have to diversify, and the more you diversify, the better

486
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 3: off you're gonna be. If something befalls, like if an

487
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 3: avian flu wipes out your chicken flock, well, if all

488
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 3: you do is raise chickens, you're ruined. Your family's going

489
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 3: to starve, you're gonna lose all of your money, and

490
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 3: the farm's gonna be taken from you. If chickens are

491
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 3: just one part of a larger holistic farm you have

492
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 3: going on, then you lose your chickens, and that's awful,

493
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 3: but you still have You know, you can cut off

494
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 3: a cow's foot and chew on that for the winter.

495
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 1: You know where the chicken and the eggs in the

496
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 1: basket comes from, right way that little Bobby Joe going

497
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: out to get the chicken eggs one morning, taking one basket.

498
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: He says, Paw, I got them, don't fret. And then

499
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: he trips on the way back and breaks all his

500
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: eggs and Pa says, put all the chicken eggs in

501
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 1: one basket. Now I ain't got no eggs. Yeah, And

502
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 1: then Bobby Joe says, well, then paw have more kids

503
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: or get more baskets.

504
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 3: That's right, and that happened in December of eighteen forty

505
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 3: two in Georgia.

506
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 1: That's right. Those were my relatives.

507
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 3: That was a great way. They chalked tall.

508
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 1: No, no, no, this is from the other side of

509
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 1: the family.

510
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:18,479
Speaker 3: The other side. Okay, yes, that's canna say, the redneck side.

511
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: Energy efficiency is a big deal using energy efficient designs,

512
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 1: whether or not you're straight up using like wind power

513
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 1: or solar, or you can just simply, like I said,

514
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 1: build things in a way where you have natural wind

515
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 1: breaks built in or places to allow the wind to

516
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,360
Speaker 1: come through and spread seed and stuff like that.

517
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 3: Right, My favorite dude of all is the biological resources.

518
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: Let's hear it.

519
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 3: So it's just basically using nature to help solve the

520
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 3: problems that you have. Right. So mollusin one of the

521
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 3: creators of it. What is his first name begain Bill

522
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 3: Bill Mullison. He had a saying, you don't have a

523
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,239
Speaker 3: snail problem, you have a duct of fish, which is

524
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 3: to say.

525
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 1: That that shirt too.

526
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 3: It was for a little while it was almost outsold

527
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 3: gas grass or you know, yeah, right, but The premise

528
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 3: of it is that if you are over rum with stils,

529
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 3: get more ducks, because the ducks are going to eat

530
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 3: the snails. And it's fine. It's good to have ducks

531
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 3: because they do other stuff too, like they walk around

532
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 3: and poop all over your property, fertilizing it as they're

533
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 3: doing it. Right, So the just to kind of take

534
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 3: a take a step back and look at it like, okay,

535
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 3: what how just say like what would nature do? That's

536
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 3: a great way to solve your problems through permaculture. Another

537
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 3: one is using pigs or chickens to till the ground

538
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 3: and to actually rotate where you plant crops every year,

539
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 3: and so this year's pig pen is next year's crop

540
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 3: land because you can move the pigs onto another area

541
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 3: and they'll turn it all muddy and turn it up

542
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 3: and get it ready for planting, just like they did

543
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 3: for this year's cropland that you're using now.

544
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: Pretty great insects too, Yeah, very big thing to bring

545
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: in the right kinds of plants, to attract the right

546
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: kinds of insects, to take care of the wrong kinds

547
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: of insects. Right, but great, I love it.

548
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 3: This raises an issue though, too one of the criticisms

549
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 3: of permacultures. It's like, well, where are you going to

550
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 3: bring in those insects from? Right? So, if, for example,

551
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 3: if you order ladybugs online, it can actually be really

552
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 3: bad for the ladybugs that live in your area because

553
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 3: if they are lab raised or farm raised ladybugs, they

554
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 3: very frequently carry a parasite that you're bringing now into

555
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 3: your neighborhood, and you can wipe out the existing native

556
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 3: ladybug population. So what do you do?

557
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: Well?

558
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 3: The permaculture way would be to say, I need to

559
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 3: attract more native ladybugs because I got aphids on my

560
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 3: lemon trees. So how do I do that? Well, you

561
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 3: just plant more high pollinating plants like sunflowers, and voila,

562
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 3: native ladybugs parasite free love it.

563
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: I didn't know people bought ladybugs online. Yeah, that's a thing.

564
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 3: I know that because I've had aphids before I looked

565
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 3: into it.

566
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: You said, duck, I got aphids at my lemon tree.

567
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: It's a come here shot. Plant succession is another design principle.

568
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: If you think about how land was before people were

569
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: messing around with it. In a natural scene, things would

570
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: just sort of grow and develop as they as nature intended,

571
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: and fields might be barren and then grow into weeds,

572
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 1: and that that might eventually grow into plants that may

573
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: eventually grow into trees, and then what do you know,

574
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 1: you have a forest.

575
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 3: Right, So Robert makes the case like that's apparently the

576
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 3: natural progression of a temperate area. Yeah, if you leave

577
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 3: it alone for long enough, it's going to into a force.

578
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 3: I didn't realize that. I guess it makes sense. So

579
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 3: this is basically saying, well, how can we how can

580
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 3: we do that if that's the way the plant, if

581
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 3: that's the way the area wants to be, how can

582
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 3: we accommodate that while also getting you know, food staples

583
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 3: from that too.

584
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: Right.

585
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 3: There's also nutrient recycling, which is basically composting. And I

586
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 3: was thinking the other day I don't answer enough when

587
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 3: asked what my favorite episode is. Composting is definitely up there.

588
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that was a great one. All right, if

589
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 3: you're digging this episode at all, go listen to composting

590
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 3: if you haven't already, it's a good one.

591
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. And finally, diversity raising multiple crops, having different kinds

592
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: of animals. Like we said, we've kind of been beaten

593
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: up on corn. But that's the idea is to not

594
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: have you know, a thousand acres of a thing and

595
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: have many different things. So, like you said, the benefits there.

596
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: If something comes along that is an illness to a crop,

597
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: you're not wiped out completely, right, you know.

598
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 3: So speaking of wiping out, let's take a break for

599
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 3: a second. Okay, well you wiped out. I'm a little

600
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 3: wiped I need to regenerate here. Okay, Okay, we'll be

601
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 3: right back. Okay, we're back. I'm feeling restored.

602
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: Chuck, good, Well, you took a nap on my shoulder

603
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: and that always helps.

604
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 3: I got a little jewel on your sleeve.

605
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, no big deal.

606
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 3: Okay. So when when you're talking about this, like design

607
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 3: principles are great and good and they are really interesting

608
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 3: to me. I think ecology is incredibly fascinating. But there

609
00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 3: are to actually feed people, you have to take them

610
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 3: into action and like do something. And people have been

611
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 3: trying this right to varying degrees of success, and more importantly,

612
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 3: to varying degrees of scientific study. I ran across a

613
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 3: professor in I believe, the UK at a place called

614
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 3: Schumacher College. Her name is Bethin Stagg, and she I

615
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 3: get the impression Schumacher College is a little crunchy. I

616
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 3: think they're the fighting granola, little hippiepy just a tad.

617
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 3: But one of the things they teach is permaculture, and

618
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 3: so beth and Stag, one of the professors there, I

619
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 3: basically studied this permaculture next to traditional like gardening plots

620
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 3: that are the same size, they're they're like, everything's the same,

621
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 3: the amount of wind and rain and sun they're getting.

622
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 3: The difference is one is one is cultivated in a

623
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 3: through permaculture methods. The other one's more just like traditional gardening,

624
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 3: like go buy fertilizer and stuff like that. Who won

625
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 3: it depends on your definition of one.

626
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: Well, which one was lying dead in a field afterward

627
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: the regular gardener.

628
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 3: They both got a couple of good licks in on

629
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 3: one another. Ultimately, I think most people would say that

630
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 3: the traditional gardening or the normal modern gardening method one.

631
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 3: The reason why it won was because for one hundred

632
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:28,760
Speaker 3: for every hundred square meters of land, it yielded thirteen

633
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 3: kilograms of edible food. The permaculture one yielded two point

634
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 3: three kilograms per one hundred meters, so far, far far

635
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 3: less food was grown. But there's a couple of things

636
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 3: you got to point out here. There was also far,

637
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 3: far far less time put into the permaculture plot, because

638
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 3: that's one of the tenets of permaculture. It's just like

639
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 3: plant this stuff and then just forget about it. You're

640
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 3: not ever supposed to mess with it again except to

641
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 3: harvest stuff. There's an emphasis on perennials rather than annuals.

642
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 3: There's far less inputs that are meant to be made

643
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 3: into it. It's just supposed to be like a little

644
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 3: engine you build and then start and it just keeps

645
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 3: going forever. Yeah, so far less time and far less

646
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 3: effort on the permaculture side, so it kind of wins

647
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 3: in that respect, right. But then also there was over

648
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 3: this three year study there were also at least one

649
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 3: year where the weather was really bad, and so the

650
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 3: normal modern gardening suffered as a result, whereas the permaculture one,

651
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 3: which was more diversified, had about the same yield as

652
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 3: the other years. So they both won. They're all winners.

653
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 3: It's like a soccer game.

654
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think the idea too, is it's not

655
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: like like that's the kind of tests that should be

656
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:46,439
Speaker 1: carried out over one hundred years.

657
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 3: Almost yes.

658
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 1: And the whole point is though still that permaculture is

659
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: not like they're not saying we will shall create more

660
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 1: yield than any other farm. That's not the whole point.

661
00:36:57,880 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 3: Again, though it depends on who you talk to. There

662
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 3: are but definitely permaculture adherents out there who think that

663
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 3: anyone who doesn't use permaculture is an idiot who's ruining

664
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 3: the planet and this is the way.

665
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 1: No, I'm not saying that. But are they saying that

666
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: they can they can provide more yield the conventional farming.

667
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 3: I think if you backed them into a corner, they

668
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 3: would probably hedge that. But I think that when they're

669
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 3: amongst themselves they may yes.

670
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: Okay, like you guys totally know we can't okay, we

671
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: just won't talk about it.

672
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 3: Shut up, Simon.

673
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 1: So there are people doing this to varying degrees all

674
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: over the world. Whether or not is if you have

675
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: a full scale permaculture farm, then you are almost one

676
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,800
Speaker 1: likely to be a pulm permaculture activist or an educator.

677
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: It's not something you're doing lightly. You may also be

678
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 1: someone who's like, well, you know, I'm part of my

679
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 1: part of my farm here I'm doing in such a

680
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: manner part of it. I'm not. But there are things

681
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: that you can do even at your own home, like

682
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: a forest garden.

683
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 3: Well that that's like what permaculture seems to really be

684
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 3: best at is backyard gardening. Yeah, so tell them about

685
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 3: the forest garden, because I found this fascinating. Man.

686
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if you've got a if you have

687
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,760
Speaker 1: a back lawn that is just a big grass lawn.

688
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 1: And you know, during our grass episode, we we didn't

689
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: get preachy, but a lot of people will say, like,

690
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: that's the worst thing you can do is just to

691
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,879
Speaker 1: have a huge flat thing of grass, right as far

692
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 1: as what's good for the earth, And that's a total

693
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 1: I mean once in that I think I remember we

694
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: talked about that literally being just like an American creation

695
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: in the fifties or something.

696
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 3: No, it was even that than that. Yeah, but yeah,

697
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure it was pretty American. Yeah, maybe English.

698
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 1: So a forest garden is a food garden that you

699
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: build or plant. You build it out of wood and

700
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 1: iron in your backyard that imitates a natural forest. So

701
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 1: you're trying to sort of replicate what you might find

702
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 1: in that natural setting in your yard. And this is gonna,

703
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: like you said, make things a little easier on you

704
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 1: because you're not gonna have to rotate crops or till

705
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:21,760
Speaker 1: like you normally would, and everything's just sort of working together.

706
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: And Robert has sort of a four part example for layers,

707
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 1: if you will, starting with trees, which are gonna obviously

708
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 1: the biggest thing in that forest garden. They're gonna eat

709
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 1: most of that sunlight. But they're also gonna let dapple

710
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: light through, which can be great growing conditions for certain things.

711
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 3: Right, So there's you're gonna grow things like blackberries or

712
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:52,320
Speaker 3: leaf lettuce or strawberries, any vines that are shade loving

713
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 3: that that produce food. But the point of this is

714
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 3: like the tree isn't just like, well, here's a tree,

715
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 3: isn't that great. It's like the tree also provides stability

716
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 3: for the vine to climb up right right, like you said,

717
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 3: it provides shade for these shade loving plants. And I

718
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 3: guess the point And I didn't really see anywhere explained

719
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 3: why people do this. I know it's like an ancient

720
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 3: technique from South America, I believe, like in the Brazilian rainforest.

721
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 3: It's used to great impact.

722
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 1: What the trees.

723
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, agro forestry basically is what it's called. But I

724
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,760
Speaker 3: didn't really see what the benefits of it are, especially

725
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 3: if it limits you to shade loving food plants, right,

726
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 3: because there's plenty of food plants out there that don't

727
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 3: love shade. Isn't that correct?

728
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 1: Yeah? It will, I guess. Let me talk about what

729
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,439
Speaker 1: we're doing. Okay, So this lady came in and she's

730
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 1: a company owner, and she takes a look at our

731
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: yard and she's basically instead of saying, hey, let's plant

732
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 1: a tree that will take twenty years to grow to

733
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: provide whatever shade and then go, she's like, let's look

734
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 1: at what you got now, because Atlanta is an urban

735
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 1: forest on its own, as you know, and there are

736
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 1: trees everywhere. So we had existing trees and stuff, and

737
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 1: she basically just sort of looks at everything, draws up

738
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 1: a design, and then comes back to us and said,

739
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 1: here's what we're gonna do. And that she's working mainly

740
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 1: with Emily because this was sort of her initiative and

741
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 1: she knew more about it than I did, and Emily

742
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: is more of the gardener in the family.

743
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 3: Way to go, Emily.

744
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I was on board, you know, and I

745
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 1: was sitting in on these meetings, going this sounds great,

746
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 1: this sounds great. So she would say, all right, you

747
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: have shade over here, so why don't we think about

748
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 1: this here like blueberry bushes, This is where you might

749
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 1: want to think about putting your herbs and downwind from

750
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 1: there because of how the way the wind blows through

751
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 1: your yard. You might want to think about this there,

752
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 1: and we can move. Like we had certain things that

753
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,240
Speaker 1: we wanted to keep, like some azaleas and some roses

754
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 1: and things, and she was like, we got to move

755
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: those because they're not in the right place. So we'll

756
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 1: put that over here, move this over there, and then

757
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 1: before you know it, she's drawn a schematic for a

758
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 1: sustainable backyard that all works together. And you know, the

759
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: insects from the one plant are close to the where

760
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,320
Speaker 1: they need to be to help kill insects that affect

761
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,240
Speaker 1: the other plant. And you know, I wish, I, well,

762
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,760
Speaker 1: it's probably great to get two wonky over my yard,

763
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: but it just all works together in harmony, and we're

764
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 1: doing it in stages. The main thing, the big, big

765
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 1: change that we've done aside from rearranging and planting new things.

766
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: Is we got a cistern finally, so we have a big,

767
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 1: huge geez. I don't even know how many gallons. I

768
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 1: want to say, like five hundred gallon. No, it's large.

769
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 3: Wow.

770
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 1: I mean it's as big as.

771
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 3: That's above ground swimming pool. I think you're describing.

772
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:52,720
Speaker 1: Is that too many gallons?

773
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:54,839
Speaker 3: Five hundred that's a lot, I don't know.

774
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 1: Let's say this. It is as big as a it's

775
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: like half as big as a Volk wagon beetle.

776
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 3: Wow, it's large.

777
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 1: So this is under our deck, so it's not an

778
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 1: iore or anything. All the gutters in the house, all

779
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 1: the water that falls onto our roof is fed into

780
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 1: the cistern. And then that cistern has pipes that they

781
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: trenched and they go all underground throughout the whole yard

782
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 1: and just sort of leech water where it needs to be.

783
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 1: And then there's also a couple of pumps. We didn't

784
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 1: have spigots in our backyard. We still don't. It's been awful,

785
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 1: you know, we haven't had We've had to run like

786
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: hundreds of feet of hose every time we wanted to

787
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: water anything, and it just feels wasteful anyway, And so

788
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 1: we didn't have backyards pigots. And now we have these

789
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 1: two posts with the little pumps and it's sort of

790
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 1: gravity fed in a way, like if the cistern is

791
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 1: full and you turn that pump on, it'll water will

792
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:55,320
Speaker 1: flow some. But then we have an actual pump installed

793
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: on the cistern to where we can actually use a

794
00:43:58,160 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 1: sprinkler if we want to.

795
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 3: But but the the pump is squirrel run by a

796
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 3: hamster whale, right which and it's it's located in the

797
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,280
Speaker 3: chestnut tree, so it's going to attract the squirrels anyway.

798
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 1: No, it's sadly it does run an electricity. I wish

799
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 1: it was hooked up to solar, but we're not that

800
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: far along yet.

801
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,399
Speaker 3: That's pretty cool though. Man, that's a that's a neat

802
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:20,839
Speaker 3: prope plane you got there.

803
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,240
Speaker 1: It's pretty awesome. And guess what we have a swale?

804
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 3: Oh? I was hoping we were going to be able

805
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 3: to talk about swales. Yeahales.

806
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, Robert did include this in his article, but I

807
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:32,840
Speaker 1: sent you a thing on swales. And we have a swale,

808
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 1: which is to say, in the back right corner of

809
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:39,919
Speaker 1: our yard. Now we have a tiny pond. It's only

810
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 1: about five feet across by five feet across, and it

811
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 1: is round and it has a like a round berm

812
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 1: around it, so you know, it's like a little hill

813
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 1: and a swale. The definition of a swale it is

814
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:58,800
Speaker 1: a is a level ditch that has dug across whatever

815
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 1: site you're in with the purpose of stopping the flow

816
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,720
Speaker 1: of water in order to make the water slowly filter

817
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 1: into the land instead of rushing over it. And the

818
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: idea there is is that most people design their yards

819
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 1: so water won't accumulate and it will run It's graded

820
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 1: in such a way that rain water will just run

821
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,840
Speaker 1: off of it as quickly as possible, right, And that's

822
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 1: you know, that's very wasteful, and that's not how the ground.

823
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 1: The ground is supposed to accept the water. I know

824
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: that sounds so hippy, but in an ideal situation, the

825
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 1: ground accepts the water into it and it's not dry

826
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 1: a day later. It is actually feeding the ground. And

827
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 1: so this swale now has a runoff from the cistern.

828
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: So when the cistern gets too full, the water will

829
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 1: then run out into the swale and just sort of

830
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: slowly leach into the ground around it, or if we

831
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 1: get just tons of tons of rain, obviously the swale

832
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 1: will collect it and the water will leach into the

833
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 1: ground around it.

834
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 3: That is very cool. That is swale.

835
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 1: It hit a super swale, but it was an important part.

836
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 1: Like when this lady came over, she's like, well, you

837
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 1: got to have a swale.

838
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like swales are my biggest seller.

839
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: And right now it's not the most attractive thing in

840
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:15,280
Speaker 1: the world. But over time we're planning. Instead of grass

841
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 1: in between everything, or even mault, we're doing groundcover. I

842
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: can't remember the specific variety, but groundcover or malta the

843
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:27,240
Speaker 1: two most sustainable ways to treat your yard period.

844
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes sense because the multual breakdown right, degrade

845
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 3: and become nutrients.

846
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. So's it's pretty neat, Like we got a good scene.

847
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 1: It's going to be years in the making.

848
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 3: Well that's another thing too. I mean like you got

849
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 3: to be very patient with this kind of stuff.

850
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great man.

851
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 3: Anywhere there are and I'm wondering you seem to have

852
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 3: a pretty realistic approach to permaculture though, like you're not

853
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:56,840
Speaker 3: going to save the world with your backyard. It sounds

854
00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 3: like but it's certainly not hurting some of the issues

855
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 3: that the world is facing right now.

856
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:04,880
Speaker 1: We're just trying to create our own little sustainable habitat.

857
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:09,399
Speaker 3: So there are we should mention some criticisms of permaculture.

858
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 3: A lot of criticisms of permaculture, we should say, but

859
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:15,800
Speaker 3: they you know, we've kind of hit on a couple

860
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:17,919
Speaker 3: of them. But the big one probably is that it's

861
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 3: not rigorously tested scientifically enough that it's just kind of

862
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 3: taken like, oh, yeah, that would work intuitively, and then

863
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:29,280
Speaker 3: that it's just left at that in a lot of ways.

864
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 3: So there are people like Beth and Stagg who I mentioned,

865
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,239
Speaker 3: and other people around the world who are starting to

866
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 3: apply science to these things to say this one works,

867
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 3: let's keep at it, this one works better if you

868
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 3: do it this way, or this one doesn't work at all,

869
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 3: don't waste your time. And as long as they're doing that,

870
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 3: permaculture deserves any respect it can get because it really

871
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 3: is again, intuitively, it makes a lot of sense, but

872
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 3: that doesn't necessarily mean it's true in fact, which is

873
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 3: why you got to study that kind of thing.

874
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the other thing that I saw in the

875
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 1: Roberts article that did make sense to me. Was one

876
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:10,279
Speaker 1: of the criticisms was to Mollison himself because he apparently

877
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 1: had a stress on bringing in exotic plants, and that

878
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 1: goes counter to everything that our lady for her company

879
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 1: talked about. She is all about native plants, like only

880
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 1: native plants.

881
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 3: And Mollison's response was, well, we've already screwed up the

882
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,959
Speaker 3: earth so bad that we're not trying to preserve ecosystems

883
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 3: as they are, specifically where we're trying to make them

884
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:40,280
Speaker 3: better through management. And it's like, actually, just contradicted everything

885
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:43,399
Speaker 3: you said back in nineteen seventy eight. And I think

886
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:45,720
Speaker 3: that's a pretty good example of from what I understand

887
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 3: of that guy. He's like, well, this is what I'm

888
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 3: saying now, so this is true, gotcha, you know what

889
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 3: I mean? That's just and I've never met him, never

890
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 3: heard him speak anything like that, just from reading about him.

891
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,319
Speaker 3: That's the impression that I have, gotcha. So to the

892
00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 3: Mulson family, sorry, if that's all right, You anything else?

893
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: Got nothing else? You'll have to come over in two years.

894
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:09,439
Speaker 3: I I'll take you upon.

895
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:10,439
Speaker 1: I want you to see it now.

896
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 3: I've been waiting for this invitation for ten years.

897
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 1: Well, it's going to be twelve total.

898
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 3: Twelve total. All right, If you want to know more

899
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 3: about permaculture, you can type that word into the search

900
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 3: bar how stuff works. And since I said search bar,

901
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 3: it's time for listener mail.

902
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:30,760
Speaker 1: I'm going to call this harrowing story from a fashion

903
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:34,359
Speaker 1: design intern. Yeah, it's a good one, and I got

904
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 1: her permission. Hey, guys, listen to internships. I wanted to

905
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 1: say thanks for addressing this issue. When I was in college,

906
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 1: I went to work or I wanted to work in

907
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 1: the fashion industry, and the internship process was very difficult

908
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,439
Speaker 1: and exploitive. I managed to somehow get an internship without

909
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 1: any connections, which felt nearly impossible, and worked my first

910
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:56,359
Speaker 1: gig for a top designer, and she did not name

911
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 1: the designer. In a follow up email, she did, but

912
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: then said, maybe don't read it.

913
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:03,360
Speaker 3: Okay, but it's a top designer okay.

914
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:06,359
Speaker 1: Not only was the internship unpaid in one of the

915
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 1: most expensive cities in the world, but I was also

916
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:13,280
Speaker 1: expected to wear an all black, fashionable wardrobe at all times,

917
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 1: so I had to find housing in New York by

918
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 1: all new clothes. Luckily, my parents were able to help

919
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,839
Speaker 1: me out there, but I hated how prohibitive the whole

920
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 1: thing was. While I was with that designer, the condin

921
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: Nass lawsuits were going on, and I remember people saying

922
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 1: the lawsuit was just another example of stereotypical millennial entitlement.

923
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 1: That's obviously not the case, because, as you mentioned, it's

924
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 1: a social issue. Because of my internship, I was able

925
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:42,320
Speaker 1: to get more experiences in the fashion industry and eventually

926
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 1: a full time job in New York after I graduated.

927
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 1: Everyone I work with now had unpaid fashion internships, and

928
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 1: almost everyone I work with as white, upper class and

929
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:54,720
Speaker 1: from a good school. Unpaid internships have led to bigger

930
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 1: problems and diversity that I think really have hurt the

931
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 1: fashion industry. You always hear about how retail and department

932
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:05,280
Speaker 1: stores are dying. Well, all the companies are run by old, white,

933
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 1: straight dudes, and we lack a variety of perspectives which

934
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 1: prevents innovation. I'm glad I had internships and I learned

935
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: a lot, but I think the internship market really needs

936
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 1: to change, So thanks again for addressing this. A lot

937
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 1: of people listen to your podcast and reevaluate how they

938
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 1: do things at their own companies and that is from Gail.

939
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 3: Thanks a lot, Gail. Nice one.

940
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, well there be good one.

941
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,359
Speaker 3: Actually, if you want to get in touch with us,

942
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:31,359
Speaker 3: like Gail did, you can tweat to us. I'm at

943
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 3: sysk podcast, or at Josh M. Clark, Chuck's at Charles W.

944
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 3: Chuck Bryant on Facebook and at Stuff you Should Know

945
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 3: on Facebook. I'm on there too somewhere, although I'm not

946
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:44,280
Speaker 3: sure where. You can send us all an email, including

947
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 3: Jerry J. E. Ri I to Stuff podcast at HowStuffWorks

948
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:51,600
Speaker 3: dot com and in the meantime, hanging out with us

949
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:58,280
Speaker 3: at our home on the web, Stuff youshould Know dot com.

950
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 2: For more on this and thousands of US or topics,

951
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 2: visit HowStuffWorks dot com.

952
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 3: M HM