WEBVTT - Apple's Virtual Reality Distortion Field, with Mark Gurman 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:20.400 Hey, and welcome to What Future. I'm your host Joshua Topolski, 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:23.759 and today on the podcast, boy have we got one 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:29.240 for you? Boy oh boy. I'm very excited because I 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:34.920 have been thinking a lot about reality and how terrible 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:38.519 it is and how I'd like to escape it. I 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:40.760 feel like I'm not giving reality a good affair shake. 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:43.400 The truth is reality is actually pretty excellent, unless you 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:46.120 read the news. I don't recommend that. But there's been 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:48.640 a lot of talk recently about a new Apple product 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:51.320 that is coming out which is supposedly going to be 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:55.160 a headset, a thing you wear on your face that 0:00:55.240 --> 0:01:00.640 does virtual reality and augmented reality, and suppose will have 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:03.520 a screen that shows your eyeballs on it when you're 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:06.559 using it, which sounds very normal and not dystopian at all, 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:09.880 and I'm sure lots of people will really enjoy that. Anyhow, 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:11.800 there has been a ton of great writing done by 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:15.399 Mark German at Bloomberg. I am a huge fan of his, 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:17.679 and we've got him on the show today to get 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:20.039 into the guts of the Apple headset and all of 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:22.800 what the company's working on around that. So let's get 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:43.000 into this conversation because I have got a lot to say. 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:47.000 You are like probably at the top of the pyramid 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:51.480 of Apple scoopers, Like you have more inside info on 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:54.640 this company than I think anybody has ever had in 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:57.120 my experience, and I've been reading, as you well know, 0:01:57.200 --> 0:01:58.880 I've been reading and writing about this shit for a 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:02.640 long time. You are consistently one hundred percent correct with them, 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:04.960 which is or like ninety percent correct with them, which 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:07.200 is very rare. So first, I want to say kudos 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:10.960 to you for being some kind of Apple Ninja's very 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:14.440 strange situation. But I applaud you, Thank you. But the 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:16.120 reason I want to talk to you is because we 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:20.040 are on the precipice supposedly, as so you claim on 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:25.919 the precipice of Apple releasing a mixed reality headset? Does 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:28.480 VR and AR? Correct? Stop me if any of this 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:31.680 sounds incorrect. Okay, they've been working on this headset. It's 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:33.600 a thing you wear on your face, you wear over 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:37.320 your eyes. It does VR, it does AR. It is 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:41.240 a product that you claim that Apple is going to announce. 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:44.120 Tim Cook is going to announce on stage at WWDC 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:47.359 on June Is it fifth? Is that the date? Yeah? 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:49.240 June fifth, Monday, June fifth. 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:52.040 Literally like next week, right, Yes, just give us the 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:54.360 quick like where did this come from? Because I have 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:56.600 a lot of questions about it? Yes, you just share 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:58.639 whatever you think is like a good setup for this thing. 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.000 Kicked off after the Apple Watch came out in twenty fifteen. 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:05.760 They were sort of looking for their next idea, right. 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:08.880 The hardware engineering group hired a guy named Mike Rockwell, 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:12.160 who was the CTO of Dolby and before that was 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:17.200 the CTO of Avid super Into Displays, super Into VR, 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:23.000 super Into high quality Audio. They hired Tom Holmansen, who 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:27.720 was the creator of THHX, which is the studio behind 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:31.960 the audio from Star Wars, which is, as everyone knows, 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:35.520 one of the paramount reasons people love Star Wars is 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:38.080 because of the soundtrack, right, and so this is a 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:41.880 music expert, and Apple's design team at the same time 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:46.920 was looking at virtual reality, augmented reality head worn devices, 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:50.400 and you know, one thing led to another. They came 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:53.040 together and they started working on this device. They did 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:58.160 many explorations around use cases. They used Samsung Gear vrs, 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:01.680 they used HDC vibes, they used every Nascent and VR 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:04.280 headset that was available eight years ago to run demos 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:06.520 on demo to Tim Cook, the executive team, the board 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:07.160 of directors. 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:10.200 Right, eight years ago they started working on this. 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:12.880 This is eight years ago, right. And you remember when 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:16.320 Steve Jobs announced the original iPhone, he said, this is 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:18.080 a day I've been looking forward to for two and 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:19.599 a half years, right. 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:20.000 Right. 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:22.680 You remember when the Apple Watch was announced, they said 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:25.039 that was about a two to three year development process. Right, 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:28.880 We're talking seven eight years here. Now there's more to it, 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:31.880 but you know that's a long development process. 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:33.960 I mean, here's what I'll say. I mean, I want 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:36.240 to hear all this backstory, but like I mean, I'm 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:38.160 a little bit in disbelief, like if you're in. By 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:40.120 the way, your scoop record, as I said at the 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:43.039 top of this, is very good. So you know, it's 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:45.400 rare that you write something and with this much detail, 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:47.600 Like look at the background here that you're sharing and 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:49.839 the stuff that you shared in your stories on Bloomberg. Right, 0:04:50.160 --> 0:04:52.200 And I tweeted about this. I was and a lot 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:54.920 of people responded to this feels like the most unlike 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:58.159 Apple thing that I've ever heard of. It's like the 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:02.360 development process, the infighting. You you wrote about the infighting there, 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:05.400 the fact that this is a device that sits on 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:09.240 your face. Apple often comes into a market and like 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:11.040 it's like there's a little bit of a market and 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:12.280 they blow it up and they turn it into a 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:15.000 huge market. I don't even know if there is a 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:19.200 market for this in a widespread way, because like, getting 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:21.880 people to wear anything on their face is difficult. People 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:26.440 get laser surgery on their eyes to avoid wearing glasses, right, 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:28.560 and I like glasses, Like I'm a glass. 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:31.440 I'll tell you so. A few years ago, they were 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:32.920 trying to figure out how they can get the weight 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:35.839 down right in the device and the overall size. So 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:38.719 you're kind of screw your glasses my front because you're 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:40.159 not going to be able to wear those and the 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:41.640 headset together. 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:44.599 Okay, I mean that alone sounds okay. See everything you're saying. 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:47.080 See when I hear this shit, what I think is 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:48.680 and this is why I'm so like I wanted to 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:51.400 talk to you because I this just sounds like it's 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:52.279 not going to happen. 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:54.680 Well, there's going to be a prescription system where you 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:57.400 pay a couple hundred bucks and you'scriptions. 0:05:57.440 --> 0:05:59.040 Does that sound like something Apple would do? 0:05:59.400 --> 0:05:59.479 Like? 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:00.440 Does it? Actually? 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:05.520 It does? Okay, that specific feature, yes, but if you're 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:08.919 asking about this device in general, the answer would be no, 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:13.000 this is definitely the new Apple so to speak. Right, right, 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:16.600 this is they're trying something new. You know, depending on 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:19.120 who you talk to there, there's mixed confidence in how 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:21.280 this thing is going to do. But I think the 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:24.479 through line, what most people at the company, the decision 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:27.599 makers have understood, is that this thing is going to 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:31.680 start off remarkably slow. I think even maybe slower than 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:34.760 the Apple Watch. Right, actually, probably much slower than the 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:35.280 Apple Watch. 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:37.920 I would imagine it's going to be expensive too, right, 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:38.600 It's not cheap. 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:41.039 It's going to be expensive. It's going to be roughly 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:45.520 three thousand dollars. So I would say anywhere from the 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:49.200 high twos to the low threes. Now that's pretty you know, 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:51.119 eye melting. But if you look at the XR market 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:54.599 in general, they're probably in the Hollow Lens to Magic 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:57.760 Leap price range. Yeah, we know those two devices failed. 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:00.159 But I was going to say, Magic Leap is like 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:03.520 a they'll teach the story of Magical Leap in business 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:07.520 classes about like this vaporware company. Right, Like Magic Leap 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:09.400 was a company that was making a headset that people 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:12.280 were like, this is like magic. Literally when you put 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:15.080 it on, you're transported. It can do anything. It's the 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:17.559 it's the be all, end all, it's the next iPhone whatever. 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:19.320 And then the company just has fizzled out, like they'd 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:22.400 never been able to ship any real meaningful product, certainly 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:26.440 not a consumer facing product, right, Hollo lens. That's Microsoft's entrant, right, 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:29.320 which was a mixed reality. I mean, I think they 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:34.120 basically wanted to target enterprise, right. It was like a business, 0:07:34.520 --> 0:07:37.680 a lab maybe like a warehouse type of device you 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:41.080 might use like for some ar assisted stuff. That's also 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:43.160 kind of fizzled, right, it has. 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:45.480 But Apple's going to shoehorn this thing into working out. 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:47.600 I mean that's my belief. 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:50.880 You think this is not only that this is going 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:53.600 to happen for real, you believe that that they're going 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:54.640 to announce this product. 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:56.160 I'm in trouble if they don't. 0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:59.800 But yes, right of course, yes, But I mean, you know, listen, 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:03.280 the way you write it, though, is the kind of 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:05.440 product that they could get very close to and then 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:07.800 look at it, do the demo and say, you know what, 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:10.160 like it's not there yet, right, Like that that has 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:11.520 happened well. 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:13.800 Back to the like the more comparing the timelines on 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:17.360 development processes three years for the previous two products and 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:20.560 then eight years for this. Let's see, this has been 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:24.160 delayed three or four times. The original original original pipe 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:27.600 dream was twenty twenty. Obviously that got pushed to twenty one, 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:30.760 then twenty two, and then twenty three. They were going 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:33.000 to announce it in January, then they were gonna announce 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:36.439 it in the spring. Right, and here we are WWDC. 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.480 It's it's locked, It's it's locked and loaded. At this point, 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:41.760 I don't see any way around that. 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:44.480 Can you describe it like physically? Do you know? Have 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:46.120 you seen it? Have you tried it? 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:48.320 I have not tried it. I've tried the Quest three, 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:49.680 but I have not tried this one. 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:52.040 Okay, but the Quest three is not we're not talking it. 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:54.080 That's not in the same ballpark. No I know has 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:56.520 this right? So you wrote about it having an external 0:08:56.559 --> 0:08:59.120 battery pack. First off, is that staying. 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:02.160 You know, like the mag Safe battery like they started 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:03.439 selling a few years that you can put on the 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:06.040 back of the iPhone anchor if you other companies sell 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:08.760 that looks like that about bigger. It's about the size 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:12.800 of an iPhone and you connected over a cable. The 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:14.880 cable is lodged into the battery pack, you plug it 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:17.480 into the headset and it goes over a wire. And 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:21.360 the two considerations there were safety and weight. Obviously, with 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:23.840 the product like this, you wanted as portable as possible 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:26.480 and as light as possible, right, and getting the battery 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:29.640 out of there was a big help in my thinking, 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:31.959 is even though they wanted to get the battery in 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:34.439 there initially, and even though for these types of products 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:36.400 you do want the battery to eventually be in the 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:41.199 frame itself. Remember the Apple Wash they launched with one 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:45.000 day of battery life, and the initial speculation was, oh, 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:47.120 over time, they're going to increase the battery life. Now sure, 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:48.720 ten years later we got the Apple Watch Ultro. 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:51.800 Yeah, it's only a little bit increased. It's like, right, 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:53.920 two three days instead of one. It's not that great, 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:55.040 that's right. 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:57.480 But in what they did, they had two options, right, 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:02.800 they had let's add to the battery life, or let's 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:05.480 add more and more power and functionality without reducing the 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:06.240 battery life. 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:07.000 Right. 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:09.280 They've done that with the iPad as well. Obviously, the 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:11.440 iPhone's a bit different they had to go in a 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:14.920 situation where they had to increase the performance and increase 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:17.800 battery life. Right, but I think the headset were probably 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:21.040 locked into this external battery situation for years to come, 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:23.680 and ideas people are gonna be okay with that, let's 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:27.200 add more performance rather than sort of taper it down 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:30.120 and get the battery back inside. I want to talk 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:31.040 about the naming thing. 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:32.640 For a minute though, Yeah, yeah, please do it, please 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:33.400 do So. 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:37.120 They've trademarked quite a few names, right, So, they trademarked 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:40.920 the name Reality one. They trademarked the name Reality Pro. 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:46.359 They've trademarked a few potential operating system names. They've trademarked 0:10:46.400 --> 0:10:50.559 the name Reality OS. They've trade marked the name XROS. 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:54.959 They've trademarked the name Reality PROS and XR pros. Right, 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:57.600 here's what I can tell you for fact, Right, for fact, 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:01.680 the OS itself is going to be called XR OS. 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:02.400 Right. 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:04.960 They were originally going to call it Reality OS. It 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:07.920 was sort of the working title, so to speak. It 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:10.319 was your this is my next before the verbs. Right. 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:13.760 We don't like that, yeah, yeah, right, So it was. 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:17.000 Going to be Reality OS, and then last year they 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:20.040 moved from the working title to the real name, which 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:23.480 is XR OS right. Now. I think there are a 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:25.640 couple of reasons for that. One. I think the word 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:32.080 reality probably doesn't translate so cleanly internationally, right, But I 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:34.840 think it's a more understandable term, at least in the 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:36.360 English language than x R. 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:39.360 Right. Yeah, XR sounds like a motorcycle, right. 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:41.720 But it also sounds a little bit more high tech, right, 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:44.600 And Apples tries to sort of bridge that idea of 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:48.079 mixing tech with you know, mass understanding. So it's a 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:51.640 little odd there. But this is a highly technical product, 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:53.800 and I think it's initially going to appeal to a 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:56.840 very niche audience, So perhaps it makes sense. What they 0:11:56.880 --> 0:11:59.040 really are trying to do is sort of, in their minds, 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:02.000 create this x mixed reality market, and so it would 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:05.240 help them own that market from a marketing standpoint, the 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:08.880 XR market. Back to the naming conventions, so they went 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:12.959 from reality OS right to XROS. And if you have 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:16.520 an operating system called reality OS, the logic would be 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:19.720 that the device itself would be called the reality right 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:23.320 or the Reality pro, just like the iPad runs iPad OS, 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:26.560 the watch, watch OS, TV t v OS et cetera. Right, 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:32.160 they've switched to XROS on the operating system name. Does 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:36.359 that mean the device is called the XR Pro running XROS. 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:39.000 Does it make sense to have a Reality Pro running 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:40.720 XROS or does it make more sense to have an 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:44.720 XR pro running XROS? What Apple release a product called 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:47.360 the XR Pro, Like the mass consumer is not going 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:51.160 to know what XR pro means? Right? And so those 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:53.560 are the questions I'd like to see answered, which will 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:57.080 obviously be answered. It's WWDC, Right, That's what's been on 0:12:57.120 --> 0:12:57.800 my mind lately. 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:02.439 That's interesting. XR is I mean presumably that means mixed reality, right? 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:04.520 Is that what we're supposed to be XR is? Or 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:07.280 I mean x has usually not used the mixed but 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:11.640 crossed reality, mixed reality whatever let's call it. That makes 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:14.560 sense in a global way of describing it, right, like 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.840 the for the format. Forget about whether they call it 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:21.120 reality or XR. Look, I've seen a lot of really 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:23.760 impressive demos of mixed reality, and I'm sure you have 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:25.680 as well. I've seen a lot of and no doubt 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:27.680 Apple can do this better than anybody. Like, I'm not 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:31.800 questioning that they can't execute something that's a better product, right, 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.520 we know that they can. They can take a smartphone, 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:36.040 You've seen a million of them, and they can make 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:39.520 it something really special and really like cohesive. What I 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:42.040 wonder though, in what's sort of not in your in 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:47.319 that bigger piece, is a question about the consumer aspect 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:51.439 of it, the relationship to consumer desire. Listen, as a 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:54.400 guy who's tried all the VR headsets, was unbelievably excited 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:57.000 about Oculus when they first appeared. Was like the biggest 0:13:57.080 --> 0:14:00.320 fan in the world. I've dreamed of VR my whole life. 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:03.080 Like all of the experiences have not only have they 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:06.360 been like ultimately sort of impressive, but disappointing in the 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:09.640 long run. What I found is like, oh, wearing this 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:12.880 thing on my head and being removed from reality and 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:16.319 having these experiences, it's a very kind of like singular 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:19.320 private experience that you can only do once in a while. 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:21.960 And I'm a nerd, Okay, remember I'm one of the 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:24.640 biggest fucking nerds in the world. They also make me 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:27.480 motion sick, Okay, Like, those experiences. 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:29.280 Have problems, right, I don't want to get too tmi. 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:33.520 But the first time I tried the quest this was 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:38.000 the original quest. I had lunch before using it. It 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:40.560 wasn't so pretty and so, oh my god, you really 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:43.960 got to get the IPD correct right, the pupil distance. 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:45.600 Right, you have to the latency has to be But 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:48.240 even then, I don't know that. Like you still are 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:50.640 challenged by lots of different things. But so this is 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:54.480 the thing, Like I understand consumers wear watches, right, Like 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:56.280 I can make an art. I can hear the argument 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:59.160 at Apple like, hey, they wear these things in their wrists, right, 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:00.800 maybe more people I would wear it if we could 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:02.560 give them a reason to put it on. You know, 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:04.480 there's already health trackers. We know that's a big market. 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:06.920 We could bite into that market. There's already a watch market. 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:08.360 It's a big market. We know we could bite into 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:10.880 that market. Maybe not everybody wants to wear the Apple Watch, 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:12.880 but we can bring people around over time, and they 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:14.720 certainly did. Like I'm one of those people's like I 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:16.480 don't want I don't need it, And then I was like, wow, 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:17.440 I love wearing it. 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:18.720 I was the same, I could believe it or not. 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:20.920 I didn't wear an Apple Watch until the series five. 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:23.480 Yeah, I mean I tried a couple of them, and 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:25.200 I was like, it's not for me. I wore regular 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.960 analog watches, and then like the last couple of years, 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:30.440 I was started wearing a garment for exercise and I 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:32.280 was like oh. When the Aultra came out, I was like, Okay, 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:43.840 this is like actually what I want. Yeah, But here's 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:46.720 the thing I am not hearing or seeing. And I 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:48.600 say this as a person who would love to see 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:52.480 a real broad consumer use case. I feel like when 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:54.760 you write about it, it feels like this product from 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:58.520 that era that you describe as like which where the 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:01.760 HCC is getting into it and quest is coming, you know, meta, 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:05.240 it buys oculus and they start doing question and again 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:07.600 and I get it. Samsung was trying to do VR stuff. 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:10.280 It's like many many years ago. This feels like a 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.480 product from a time when the excitement around that still 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:15.360 seem new and like possible. 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:15.760 Right. 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:19.640 I don't think consumers have embraced these products and even 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:22.840 want them. And so what is Apple saying internally or 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:24.880 what are they how are they testing internally? I know 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:27.280 they're like the consumer doesn't know what it wants or whatever, 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:29.560 but can you give me some color on like what's 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:32.520 going on with their relationship to a consumer audience for this. 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:34.880 Yeah, I mean that is a good question. You know, 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:36.560 if you pull one hundred people on the street to 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:38.240 ask them if this is something that they're going to 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:40.040 use on a daily basis, the number is going to 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:43.440 probably be incredibly small. What I think is that they 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:46.760 see this as a very very long term thing, like 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:51.320 ten years long term. And one thing I believe they're 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:53.240 going to try to do is position it as quote, 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:55.960 the future of the computer. I think they see this 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:59.960 as something that's a Mac replacement or an iPad replacement, 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:02.800 So maybe five years from now you won't own a Mac, 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:07.400 you'll own a headset instead. I say that as being 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:09.360 around long enough to know how many people were saying 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:13.119 that about the iPad, and I know very few people 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:16.760 personally who've transitioned from a Mac to an iPad. Fully, 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:19.880 I will say there are millions of people who have right, 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:22.479 so don't get me wrong, but I think it's going 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:24.840 to play out similarly to that. I mean, the best 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:27.679 estimates that I'm hearing are the most optimistic estimates I'm hearing. 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:30.399 Is this bringing in about twenty five billion a year 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:33.119 in revenue. That puts it on part the iPad and 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:36.200 the Apple Watch, which is not nothing. It's not nothing 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:38.760 for Apple to show growth that's good enough. They're going 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:41.159 to make a big return on this investment. Within a 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:43.760 few years. They're going to become the market leader in 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:47.640 XR in terms of unit sales and revenue probably within 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:51.639 six months, or revenue within six months. Unit sales probably 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:55.360 not as quickly. So you know, from a market standpoint, 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:57.920 it's going to be a success out of the gate. 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:01.080 Apple standpoint, it's going to be a flop out of 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:04.760 the gate, I think, but eventually be hugely successful. Like 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:07.280 I really believe in this long term you do because 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:09.240 of the investment, Yeah, I do. The ga Apple's not 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:10.720 going to give up on this, right, even if it 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:13.240 takes five ten years. They're going to shoehorn this thing 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:15.760 till it works out. You know, the price is going 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:18.119 to come down eventually too. You're going to get new 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:20.760 features like cellular. There are going to be big enough 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:23.640 improvements and a big marketing budget behind it to get 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:25.960 people interested in this. Right, They're going to make a 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:28.080 whole big deal about this thing in Apple retail stores. 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:30.320 It's going to drive foot traffic. They're going to try 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:32.840 selling other products to people who are just coming in 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:36.160 to try this thing on. It'll be a big marketing exer, 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:36.359 so a. 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:39.760 Lot of accessories, I'm sure a lot of accessories. Right. So, 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:42.159 like everything you're describing sounds very app right, and I 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:44.760 think like the long the long play is possible, right, 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:46.600 They definitely like the I mean, I've had a good 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:50.000 example of something that has never found a perfect home, 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:52.480 but definitely there's a big market for it. And they've 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:55.399 created that market really for tablets, right, right, And I 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:58.919 think you're right, Like I've grown to become an iPad user, 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:01.560 and in fact, they just released some greats that like Logic, 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:05.359 the music software that has been Mac only for a 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:07.720 really long time. They were a music guy before this, right, 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:08.680 I used to produce music. 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:10.840 Right, I'm curious what you think, Well, I'll. 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:12.360 Tell you what I think. I think it's fucking amazing. 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:14.520 And I have been sitting on my iPad at night, 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:18.200 like in my downtime, making music in Logic. Now there's 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:19.919 some stuff that's like a little bit yanky because it's 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:23.320 like the iPad the way it works is just weird 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:25.280 for things where you need lots of windows, like it 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:27.800 just doesn't want to do that. But like in terms 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.840 of a tool. It's like unbelievably powerful and really really 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:32.600 good for what it's like what you want it to be. 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:34.520 And I think it's going to work in the headset. 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:36.440 I think that app run in the headset. 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:39.400 So that sounds like a super fun like I can see, 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:41.520 like listen, I mean Jaron Lanier, who is the guy 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:45.120 who basically invented VR, who's written about technology for years, 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:47.720 for decades and decades, he's really like become like a 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:51.919 philosopher when it comes to this technology. Originally, you know, 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:54.760 kind of created VR for this purpose of working in 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:56.560 a larger space, Like he was dealing with these really 0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:58.560 large numbers that you couldn't look out on a monitor. 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:02.560 So I see the commercial applications there, right, I can 0:20:02.600 --> 0:20:04.960 see like there's going to be places, like I said, 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:07.920 where hollow Lens was maybe targeting, or where magic Leap 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:09.760 hope to target where I can see more of a 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:13.960 retail or commercial application. What's so weird to me though, 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:17.520 is if you look at the landscape of today, right 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:20.800 so peak COVID, I'd see this as being a really 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:23.359 attractive product, right like when we were had peak COVID, 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:26.360 when everybody was at home we had lockdowns, we had 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:28.800 like everybody was scared to kind of go out and socialize. 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:31.160 Like I think that's when you know, that's when Facebook 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:33.800 tried to kind of capture with their metaverse bullshit. They 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:36.360 kind of tried to capture this moment of like, hey, 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:38.280 we're going to all move to this different kind of 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:41.560 like way of communicating and computing and working and blah 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:43.800 blah blah. But I feel like if you look at 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:46.280 the hit rate now again and maybe this Apple sees 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:49.119 that as a market opportunity, it feels like such an 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:54.080 off key entry. Like we've seen so many versions of 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:56.840 this that had been really rejected and in fact, like 0:20:57.600 --> 0:21:01.280 none surprisingly, but Facebook's huge pivot was basically rejected as 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:04.159 this concept of the metaverse and being more like what 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:06.800 I see from society. And frankly, what Tim Cook has 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:11.080 actually said at many intervals on stage is like people 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:14.600 want less of this, like of this stuff in their life. 0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:17.840 They want to be less immersed in technology. When they 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:19.399 talked about the watch, they were like, we want you 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:21.280 to be less distracted by your phone and you can 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:23.000 get up on your you know, do your thing. You 0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:26.040 can just glance at your watch and all this it 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:28.119 just feels like it flies in the face of And 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:29.760 Tim Cook was a big part of this, right, Like 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:32.160 he pushed this, This is like his product in some way, 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:34.960 he wanted this to happen. I mean, he runs the company. 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:37.400 This doesn't feel like it flies in the face of 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:40.199 everything that, like the industry has told us and that 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:41.760 consumers have told us about this. 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:45.760 Yes, but I think one of the most fundamental aspects 0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:48.879 from early on in development was how you make VR 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:52.760 socially acceptable and how you take people in VR without 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:55.320 removing them from the real world. And there's a few 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:58.760 tricks they have up their sleeve on that. One is 0:21:58.840 --> 0:22:02.040 this external display that they've been working on from the 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:05.320 very beginning for the headset, where it's essentially you can 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:07.879 see you have this front ole a display and you 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:10.800 see the person's eyes who's wearing it, and so like 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:14.040 it's sort of like they're there or not there. 0:22:14.880 --> 0:22:17.720 Yeah, I mean this sounds insane, right, Like just hearing 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:20.159 you describe that, you're saying that on the outside of 0:22:19.920 --> 0:22:23.679 these basically look like ski goggles, right right, this device 0:22:23.760 --> 0:22:26.280 is something like that you're saying on the outside surface 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:28.560 of it, is it covering the whole surface of the 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:30.040 outside the screen. 0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:33.280 Do you know the screen A portion of it, Yeah, 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:35.320 where your eyes would be, and you can you know 0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:38.240 you're moving your eyes and you can you know you're blinking. 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:40.960 And so there's cameras inside of the there's some kind 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:43.000 of camera inside of the goggles that are tracking your 0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:43.760 eye movements. 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:45.480 Yeah, eye tracking, right. 0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:47.359 And so then it's showing people on the outside. So 0:22:47.800 --> 0:22:50.120 do they think that you'd be walking around in public 0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:51.120 wearing this headset? 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:53.919 There was a demo internally, and not only that, that 0:22:53.960 --> 0:22:55.640 you would wear it to a party, which I think 0:22:55.720 --> 0:22:56.440 is ridiculous. 0:22:56.480 --> 0:22:58.480 But I mean, this is the thing, Like, think about 0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:00.320 a bunch of people at a party wearing the things 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:04.680 on their face and try to imagine a desire there. 0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:05.480 I would leave. 0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:07.959 Now, I'm kidding right now, you probably, I mean, if 0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:10.640 you didn't have one, you certainly would leave. Right, That's 0:23:10.680 --> 0:23:11.760 the point, right. 0:23:11.840 --> 0:23:13.720 I don't think they're gonna they're going to try to 0:23:13.760 --> 0:23:16.280 make this socially acceptable. The other thing they've done from 0:23:16.320 --> 0:23:19.320 a technology standpoint, it is a it's a VR headset, 0:23:19.920 --> 0:23:22.440 but they've shoehorned AR into there as a very core 0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:25.600 component of it. Because you have these dozen external cameras 0:23:26.160 --> 0:23:28.240 and you have the crown on the Apple Watch. You 0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:31.960 have a bigger version of that on the headset, right. 0:23:31.840 --> 0:23:33.320 So it's like that. And it's like the headphones. I 0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:36.200 have the big yeah Apple they have that big crown 0:23:36.240 --> 0:23:37.920 on them to adjust volume and stuff. 0:23:38.000 --> 0:23:40.880 Right, So it's like going between VR and AR mode, right, 0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:42.840 and so you are seeing right. 0:23:43.080 --> 0:23:45.320 Oh, you can dial it. You can dial it to 0:23:45.480 --> 0:23:48.320 by degrees in and out. Oh is that the idea? 0:23:48.560 --> 0:23:50.560 I don't know. I was described to me as on 0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:51.119 or off. 0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:53.359 Oh really, okay, because I was thinking like, actually, it's 0:23:53.359 --> 0:23:55.400 a cool idea. If you could go, like I want, 0:23:55.440 --> 0:23:59.280 like sixty percent you know, virtual reality and forty percent 0:23:59.359 --> 0:24:00.800 you know, real or whatever. I don't know. 0:24:00.920 --> 0:24:03.320 Just that that I don't know that actually would make sense. 0:24:03.320 --> 0:24:05.160 I mean, it's a dial it's just my thought. Yeah, 0:24:05.200 --> 0:24:06.040 well that too. 0:24:06.119 --> 0:24:09.320 But also the idea of XR being a spectrum as 0:24:09.400 --> 0:24:11.560 much VR as you want or as much AR as 0:24:11.600 --> 0:24:13.359 you want, that would make a lot of sense to 0:24:13.400 --> 0:24:16.520 me too. I think most people will probably use it 0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:19.239 in VR mode, but you have the AR mode there too, right. 0:24:19.440 --> 0:24:22.280 I think that it's going to be a really interesting 0:24:22.280 --> 0:24:24.800 differentiator from the competition, like I was using the Quest 0:24:24.880 --> 0:24:26.720 three the other day. There's no dial to go in 0:24:26.800 --> 0:24:29.800 and out of vr AR. It's like a sending. 0:24:30.119 --> 0:24:31.760 I mean, on the Quest you can switch into a 0:24:31.800 --> 0:24:34.440 mode where you're to a pass through mode right as 0:24:35.040 --> 0:24:36.880 flipping a dial on the top of the headset. 0:24:37.160 --> 0:24:39.119 That's going to be something every headset maker is going 0:24:39.200 --> 0:24:40.960 to take, you know, for sure. 0:24:41.359 --> 0:24:43.040 And it would have to I mean presumably would have 0:24:43.040 --> 0:24:44.720 to be able like if they imagine people at a 0:24:44.720 --> 0:24:47.520 party with this, then the view it gives you has 0:24:47.600 --> 0:24:49.840 to be as like close to one to one of 0:24:49.880 --> 0:24:52.399 your vision as like you have when you're not wearing 0:24:52.400 --> 0:24:54.600 the headset, right, because like otherwise you're going to be 0:24:54.600 --> 0:24:57.440 bumping into shit and like you know, falling on things. 0:24:57.440 --> 0:24:59.399 Because like you need to be able to see, like 0:24:59.520 --> 0:25:02.320 imagine walking around and you don't have like perfect vision, 0:25:02.480 --> 0:25:04.280 like you can't see the law or whatever. 0:25:04.440 --> 0:25:06.119 Put it this way, I used the Quest three. This 0:25:06.200 --> 0:25:07.679 was a prototype. By the way, this thing's not being 0:25:07.680 --> 0:25:11.639 announced for several months. I used the Quest three and 0:25:11.720 --> 0:25:15.920 it was pretty on point in terms of what you're describing, 0:25:15.960 --> 0:25:17.960 being able to walk and see what you're doing. 0:25:18.840 --> 0:25:22.720 That has two cameras, okay, right, this has a dozen. 0:25:22.760 --> 0:25:25.160 Roughly a dozen, so I would say anywhere between ten 0:25:25.200 --> 0:25:28.080 to fourteen, right, And so you're talking about three to 0:25:28.160 --> 0:25:31.640 five x performance of something that, to me, someone who 0:25:31.720 --> 0:25:34.760 uses this stuff was pretty damn good, right, and talking 0:25:34.760 --> 0:25:37.080 about the metaproduct, and so this is going to be 0:25:37.240 --> 0:25:39.399 this is going to be unbelievable. People who have demoed 0:25:39.400 --> 0:25:42.080 this thing like is rocked off their socks. I mean, 0:25:42.080 --> 0:25:43.160 they've been blown away. 0:25:43.440 --> 0:25:45.320 See here's the thing. It's like, I believe that Apple 0:25:45.359 --> 0:25:47.720 can execute on something like this better than anybody. Like 0:25:47.720 --> 0:25:50.560 that's what I was saying earlier, like the thing that 0:25:50.720 --> 0:25:52.440 just breaks my brain. I don't mean to keep coming 0:25:52.440 --> 0:25:53.760 back to it, but it's just like I just like, 0:25:53.800 --> 0:25:56.960 I'm like, even in the best executed sense, there's so 0:25:57.080 --> 0:26:00.840 many things that are off putting about this. And again 0:26:00.880 --> 0:26:03.439 I say this as a person who desires to be 0:26:03.480 --> 0:26:05.600 able to have these experiences, like I think this is 0:26:05.600 --> 0:26:08.480 a cool technology that we haven't yet seen the end of. 0:26:08.560 --> 0:26:13.520 But I personally have gotten a little bit deflated in 0:26:13.600 --> 0:26:17.120 terms of like what it can provide, not just because 0:26:17.280 --> 0:26:19.520 the experience has been bad or not as good as 0:26:19.560 --> 0:26:24.840 I would hope, but because societally, like culturally, I feel 0:26:24.880 --> 0:26:30.400 like we are all feeling really burnt on being inside 0:26:30.440 --> 0:26:33.800 the box, right, being inside this thing here that we're 0:26:33.840 --> 0:26:36.560 talking on and looking at this thing all day long, right, 0:26:36.680 --> 0:26:39.240 being immersed has become a thing that I think for 0:26:39.280 --> 0:26:41.920 a lot of people. I mean, listen, you're much younger 0:26:41.960 --> 0:26:44.120 than me. I'm an old man now, I'll be dead 0:26:44.119 --> 0:26:46.600 at any day now. But you know, like having lived 0:26:46.600 --> 0:26:48.800 through the boom of this stuff of like the social 0:26:48.840 --> 0:26:52.280 media era and the phone era, I'm like, yeah, like 0:26:52.320 --> 0:26:56.640 I kind of want less of it. And Apple is saying, okay, 0:26:56.800 --> 0:26:59.800 but what if you put your entire fucking face inside 0:26:59.840 --> 0:27:02.440 of it all the time? Right? That's kind of like their 0:27:02.480 --> 0:27:04.520 bat here, which seems weird to me. 0:27:05.200 --> 0:27:07.880 It's scary, it's scary. I mean, they do make these 0:27:07.880 --> 0:27:09.720 comments about like you said, they want you to lose it, 0:27:09.840 --> 0:27:12.400 use your devices less. They don't want you using these things. 0:27:12.440 --> 0:27:13.680 They don't want you to be addicted to them. But 0:27:13.680 --> 0:27:15.280 if people weren't addicted to them and using them as 0:27:15.320 --> 0:27:17.240 much as they did, they wouldn't be making they wouldn't 0:27:17.240 --> 0:27:19.240 be a three trillion dollar company, right, So there is 0:27:19.280 --> 0:27:22.320 some nuance there, right, They want to toe that line. 0:27:22.760 --> 0:27:25.359 You know, what I heard from a few people is 0:27:25.400 --> 0:27:27.560 that at the get go of this project, you know, 0:27:27.840 --> 0:27:32.000 Apple had serious reservations and considerations internally about creating a 0:27:32.000 --> 0:27:34.639 product that would run counter to this idea we're talking about. 0:27:34.720 --> 0:27:35.040 Right. 0:27:35.080 --> 0:27:37.840 They didn't want to create something that would keep people 0:27:37.840 --> 0:27:40.879 out of the real world. And one idea that they 0:27:40.880 --> 0:27:42.879 came up with internally was this argument that if we 0:27:42.920 --> 0:27:45.800 don't do it and do it in a responsible way, 0:27:46.119 --> 0:27:49.360 this external display, the mixed reality focus, someone else will 0:27:49.400 --> 0:27:53.040 do it poorly and you know, hurt society. Now, right, 0:27:53.320 --> 0:27:58.320 that's that opinion. It's a preventative measure, right Yeah, No, yeah, 0:27:58.760 --> 0:28:01.320 buy it at Walgreens. No, But that's one end of 0:28:01.320 --> 0:28:03.879 the spectrum. The other idea here is if Apple doesn't 0:28:03.920 --> 0:28:07.200 do this, Amazon, Meta, Google, someone else will come with 0:28:07.280 --> 0:28:10.159 a VR headset and destroy Apple in that market. Like 0:28:10.200 --> 0:28:14.400 Apple was hurting smart speakers and voice assistants and such, right. 0:28:14.359 --> 0:28:16.080 The speaker thing I was thinking of when you were 0:28:16.080 --> 0:28:18.080 saying how they stick with stuff long term, Like. 0:28:18.520 --> 0:28:20.320 They just continued that after a year. 0:28:20.680 --> 0:28:23.800 Right. There are places where Apple tries to fight and 0:28:24.600 --> 0:28:28.639 doesn't ever really gain a footholder. Just for for whatever reason, 0:28:28.680 --> 0:28:33.760 they can't get the fit right, Like there's something about 0:28:34.400 --> 0:28:36.840 the market doesn't want their version of it. It's too 0:28:36.880 --> 0:28:38.440 you know, so it's like, well, I just. 0:28:38.360 --> 0:28:40.040 They totally screwed up at the home pod at the 0:28:40.080 --> 0:28:42.160 get go right. And if you think about you know, 0:28:42.600 --> 0:28:44.520 it depends how you look at these things. If you 0:28:44.560 --> 0:28:47.360 consider the home pod a major product category, that could 0:28:47.400 --> 0:28:50.000 have been in the same vein as you know, the iPhone, 0:28:50.080 --> 0:28:53.080 the iPod, right, the iPad, the mac right, I consider 0:28:53.120 --> 0:28:56.720 it more in the accessories category, something akin to like 0:28:56.720 --> 0:28:58.640 an Apple TV or air pods. 0:28:58.760 --> 0:29:00.000 It's smaller, it's smaller. 0:29:00.320 --> 0:29:02.920 They okay, that was a five six year development process. 0:29:02.960 --> 0:29:05.840 Also because there were numerous times where they were thinking, 0:29:05.880 --> 0:29:08.040 let's not do it, let's do it. They had many delays. 0:29:08.200 --> 0:29:12.000 They screwed up twofold pricing, three point fifty out the door, 0:29:12.680 --> 0:29:19.800 awful decision, right yep iPhone exclusive serie exclusive, no app integration, 0:29:20.920 --> 0:29:22.920 no ecosystem. I mean that was just. 0:29:23.040 --> 0:29:26.360 Are you describing describing the headset right now? Well, high 0:29:26.360 --> 0:29:27.240 price point out. 0:29:27.120 --> 0:29:28.760 Of the gates, high price point out of the gate. 0:29:28.800 --> 0:29:30.920 It's definitely not going to work with anybody else's device, right, 0:29:30.960 --> 0:29:32.520 You're not going to able to use an Android phone. 0:29:32.520 --> 0:29:34.560 With this, it's not going to work with anyone else's device, 0:29:35.200 --> 0:29:37.320 but it is going to run a million iPad apps 0:29:37.320 --> 0:29:38.840 when you take it out of the box, and so 0:29:39.680 --> 0:29:41.600 they are not going to have a content issue, and 0:29:41.640 --> 0:29:44.200 from day one they're going to have the biggest XR 0:29:44.880 --> 0:29:47.040 app ecosystem of any provider. 0:29:47.800 --> 0:29:49.200 I got to tell you, I mean, I'm just I 0:29:49.280 --> 0:29:51.120 was thinking through this. Like you mentioned that they were 0:29:51.120 --> 0:29:54.520 talking about doing logic. It's a studio app. It is 0:29:54.560 --> 0:29:58.040 something that people use in professional studios to produce music. 0:29:58.040 --> 0:30:00.280 Probably most of the music you listen to, either pro 0:30:00.360 --> 0:30:03.280 Tools or Logic is where they people produce it. So 0:30:03.480 --> 0:30:05.520 you're saying they just brought it to the iPad. You're saying, 0:30:05.560 --> 0:30:07.880 now they can take that and expand it to XR 0:30:08.560 --> 0:30:11.200 and create. Presumably you're in the headset and you can 0:30:11.240 --> 0:30:13.320 see your score. You can see what you're working on 0:30:13.400 --> 0:30:15.760 from like the beginning of a ten minute song to 0:30:15.800 --> 0:30:17.440 the end of it in one glance. 0:30:17.560 --> 0:30:20.160 Right, all right, let me take a step back. First, 0:30:20.200 --> 0:30:25.400 iPad launched Okay, two options for apps, full scale iPad apps, 0:30:26.000 --> 0:30:28.320 iPhone app to x moon't run on the iPad, right, 0:30:28.760 --> 0:30:31.280 and the iPhone only apps died pretty quickly because they 0:30:31.280 --> 0:30:31.920 were crappy. 0:30:32.040 --> 0:30:33.080 I don't like where this is going. 0:30:33.600 --> 0:30:35.600 It was a thing, right, and so this is going 0:30:35.640 --> 0:30:38.360 to be a much better version of that. It'll run 0:30:38.360 --> 0:30:40.040 your iPad os apps out of the box. 0:30:40.280 --> 0:30:42.680 But you're saying like it'll run up. You're saying it'll 0:30:42.760 --> 0:30:46.080 run a window. It'll run a window, right, and then 0:30:47.160 --> 0:30:48.200 that's interesting. 0:30:47.880 --> 0:30:50.320 Right, But if the developer wants to create a native, 0:30:50.400 --> 0:30:54.440 native XR version of that app, they can do that also. 0:30:54.560 --> 0:30:57.800 Right, right, So it's like an operating system literally in 0:30:57.840 --> 0:31:00.719 the sense that I will be able to open and 0:31:00.800 --> 0:31:04.840 look at like multiple iPad apps running as I would 0:31:04.840 --> 0:31:06.640 see them, or some variation of how I would see 0:31:06.640 --> 0:31:10.920 them on an iPad, like a in a windowed scenario essentially, 0:31:10.960 --> 0:31:13.800 but then possibly like at a later day. Okay, so 0:31:13.800 --> 0:31:17.720 so I can So that's really interesting. I mean again, 0:31:17.960 --> 0:31:19.360 but here's the thing. What I was going to say 0:31:19.440 --> 0:31:22.400 is last night I was in my living room. I 0:31:22.440 --> 0:31:24.560 was messing around with logic. I had my headphones on 0:31:24.680 --> 0:31:26.640 and I had noise cancelation on, right, so I couldn't 0:31:26.640 --> 0:31:29.880 hear anything, that's just hearing. And my wife walked in 0:31:30.000 --> 0:31:33.120 the living room and I literally jumped because I didn't 0:31:33.120 --> 0:31:35.080 know she was there and I looked up and there 0:31:35.080 --> 0:31:37.040 was like a person standing there, and I fucking jumped, 0:31:37.280 --> 0:31:38.600 you know. And then I was like, Okay, well, I 0:31:38.640 --> 0:31:41.760 can't sit in the room with her listening to my 0:31:41.960 --> 0:31:44.560 like logic project I'm working on while she's like trying 0:31:44.560 --> 0:31:47.200 to talk to me or we're like, you know, you know, going, hey, 0:31:47.240 --> 0:31:49.360 we should watch a show or something. Like. You can't 0:31:49.360 --> 0:31:52.240 be in a room with noise cancelation unless you expressly 0:31:52.280 --> 0:31:54.840 want to shut the world out, right, Like, I'm sure 0:31:54.880 --> 0:31:57.760 you've used noise cancelation on your on your AirPods and 0:31:57.800 --> 0:32:00.360 you know what I'm talking about. This is like noise 0:32:00.440 --> 0:32:06.360 cancelation for your fucking eyes, I assume additionally for your ears, right, Like, 0:32:06.400 --> 0:32:09.800 so I'm trying to imagine that same scenario, right, but 0:32:09.840 --> 0:32:11.480 like you're sitting in it. You're sitting in a room, 0:32:11.600 --> 0:32:14.520 you're doing something, You're totally isolated from people in that room. 0:32:14.880 --> 0:32:17.600 It's such a weird vulnerability that I just feel like, 0:32:18.560 --> 0:32:20.960 I don't know, does Apple really think people want that? 0:32:21.240 --> 0:32:24.600 Like do people want that? I guess I don't know. 0:32:24.760 --> 0:32:27.480 I personally, you know, I'm a nerd like you I'll 0:32:27.480 --> 0:32:30.680 be first in line, right, not freaking wait to try it. 0:32:30.720 --> 0:32:32.560 We'll buy it. Don't get me wrong, I'm going to 0:32:32.600 --> 0:32:35.840 buy it and use it because I'm a total like gonna, 0:32:36.080 --> 0:32:38.320 I'm a total freak for this shit. But like, right, 0:32:38.800 --> 0:32:41.000 but I have I have quests, and I have all 0:32:41.040 --> 0:32:43.400 kinds of other stuff, and you know, like it comes 0:32:43.640 --> 0:32:46.520 comes out occasionally, but it's just a very unusual experience. 0:32:46.720 --> 0:32:49.720 That's exactly right. My question is is how long until 0:32:49.760 --> 0:32:51.920 this thing is charging on a daily basis on my 0:32:51.960 --> 0:32:54.760 desk rather than being used? How long until it turns 0:32:54.760 --> 0:32:57.840 into uh, you know, something that just sits there and 0:32:58.040 --> 0:32:58.720 gathers dust. 0:33:09.120 --> 0:33:11.280 Here's an interesting anecdote and I think maybe speaks to 0:33:11.280 --> 0:33:14.080 this question about immersion. Yeah, I started to use my 0:33:14.120 --> 0:33:16.760 iPad more in the evenings when I wasn't working because 0:33:16.800 --> 0:33:19.720 I wanted to have an experience that made me less 0:33:19.840 --> 0:33:25.000 immersed in like the windowed noisiness of a laptop. Right, 0:33:25.040 --> 0:33:27.480 Like on my laptop, I've got like Gmail open, I've 0:33:27.480 --> 0:33:29.400 got Twitter open, I've got all this shit, and everything's 0:33:29.440 --> 0:33:32.200 like pinging, there's all this noise, and on an iPad 0:33:32.240 --> 0:33:35.440 it's like very singular. You're like when I'm working on 0:33:35.520 --> 0:33:37.760 logic on the iPad. You know, I'm in like do 0:33:37.880 --> 0:33:40.280 not Disturb, and it's like everything is gone. There's no 0:33:40.360 --> 0:33:42.800 other windows, there's no little pop ups. It's like very 0:33:43.040 --> 0:33:45.520 and you know, for even for browsing or watching shit 0:33:45.600 --> 0:33:47.840 on YouTube. I do like I'll just go into that 0:33:47.920 --> 0:33:50.320 kind of like singular sort of focused zone. It's like 0:33:50.320 --> 0:33:54.600 a bigger workspace, but it's like less noisy and less 0:33:54.600 --> 0:33:57.160 immersive than being in a computer in the sense you know, 0:33:57.400 --> 0:33:59.080 it will take time. I agree with you, but. 0:33:59.600 --> 0:34:01.400 I'm us it. By the way, I was a big 0:34:01.440 --> 0:34:06.120 iPad user until the m one computer started coming out, Yeah, 0:34:06.200 --> 0:34:10.400 because the Intel machines were so crappy and slow and fans. 0:34:10.440 --> 0:34:12.520 I was like, I need to get anything horrible battery, Yeah, 0:34:12.520 --> 0:34:13.400 I need to use the iPad. 0:34:13.520 --> 0:34:13.719 Yeah. 0:34:13.760 --> 0:34:17.440 But since I've had this m one Max MacBook Pro, 0:34:17.640 --> 0:34:19.880 the iPad is not as useful because I actually can 0:34:19.920 --> 0:34:21.160 get stuff done on this now. 0:34:21.640 --> 0:34:23.640 So but I want to talk about that. Actually, like 0:34:23.680 --> 0:34:25.600 this brings us to an interesting point about all of this, 0:34:25.680 --> 0:34:28.399 which is like we are very much in the Tim 0:34:28.480 --> 0:34:30.440 Cook era here. I mean, there's no question that. 0:34:30.719 --> 0:34:32.439 We're deep in the Tim Cook era. 0:34:32.680 --> 0:34:35.880 He's not gonna be CEO forever. Obviously he's not that old, 0:34:35.920 --> 0:34:37.680 but you know there's going to be a CEO after 0:34:37.760 --> 0:34:40.759 Tim Cook. This could be his big like moment, right. 0:34:40.840 --> 0:34:43.960 The era of Tim Cook produced this product, But the 0:34:43.960 --> 0:34:47.360 era of Tim Cook has produced a lot of middling 0:34:48.440 --> 0:34:53.640 just okay, not that exciting me too, products that feel like, 0:34:53.840 --> 0:34:56.960 you know, like like Apple music is It's fine. You know, 0:34:57.000 --> 0:35:00.560 it didn't change the world. It didn't destroy Spot, it 0:35:00.600 --> 0:35:03.680 didn't you know, it's didn't iTunes the situation, right, It 0:35:03.719 --> 0:35:06.360 wasn't like one day we're all got our rios and 0:35:06.400 --> 0:35:09.400 then the next day nobody is using anything but iTunes. 0:35:10.400 --> 0:35:13.160 The lack of definition of this feels very of a 0:35:13.239 --> 0:35:15.520 type of Tim Cook sort of product. Not to say 0:35:15.520 --> 0:35:17.520 that that and you mentioned this in your article that 0:35:17.560 --> 0:35:19.840 he's not a product guy. So can you talk a 0:35:19.880 --> 0:35:21.680 little bit about how this is like a part of 0:35:21.719 --> 0:35:24.520 his legacy if you know what type of legacy he 0:35:24.560 --> 0:35:26.480 would have like in a post Tim Cook era. 0:35:26.680 --> 0:35:30.480 Well, I really think they see this as the third 0:35:30.719 --> 0:35:34.880 major new computing paradigm in Apple's history, right, the first 0:35:34.920 --> 0:35:39.360 one being the Mac, the second one really being the iPhone, 0:35:39.600 --> 0:35:41.960 with the Apple Watch of the iPad as an extension 0:35:42.040 --> 0:35:43.960 of that. Like I would say, you know, the Mac 0:35:44.080 --> 0:35:46.440 is one, the iPhone is two, and the iPad and 0:35:46.520 --> 0:35:49.160 watch are two A and two B, right, And then 0:35:49.160 --> 0:35:52.200 I really think this is number three, right. I think 0:35:52.239 --> 0:35:54.759 they really believe that the future of computing could be 0:35:54.840 --> 0:36:00.000 living in these mixed reality environments. Certainly more immersive, it's 0:36:00.080 --> 0:36:02.520 certainly brings a lot of power with it. There's a 0:36:02.560 --> 0:36:05.000 lot more flexibility in the types of apps you can use, 0:36:05.320 --> 0:36:07.240 there's a lot more ways that you can actually interact 0:36:07.239 --> 0:36:10.960 with your content. But it is so early stage one. 0:36:11.040 --> 0:36:13.280 I mean it really I think could take ten years 0:36:13.600 --> 0:36:16.480 to take off. And I think if they successfully create 0:36:16.560 --> 0:36:19.360 this XR market, because let's be honest, it's really nascent, 0:36:19.440 --> 0:36:22.480 it basically doesn't exist, and they take it into how 0:36:22.520 --> 0:36:26.239 people use computers in the future instead of laptops and desktops, right, 0:36:26.360 --> 0:36:28.719 or instead of iPads and phones, I think that's a 0:36:28.719 --> 0:36:32.920 pretty cool legacy. Right. It's also an extremely big bet 0:36:32.960 --> 0:36:35.880 because there is a very high chance that never happens 0:36:35.920 --> 0:36:39.080 and it doesn't work out. On the other hand, Apple 0:36:39.160 --> 0:36:42.440 has so much market cachet and has so much money 0:36:42.520 --> 0:36:45.879 and so many resources that I think that this thing. 0:36:45.960 --> 0:36:50.720 Becoming a massive, massive failure would not break the company. 0:36:50.760 --> 0:36:54.759 But I think this being a big hit would do 0:36:55.360 --> 0:36:57.160 wonders for the company. 0:36:56.840 --> 0:36:59.520 Like you would change that the path of where they're 0:36:59.600 --> 0:37:02.560 focused like pretty much for the future, right, it. 0:37:02.560 --> 0:37:05.239 Would change a lot. It would change a lot. And 0:37:05.320 --> 0:37:08.400 so I think that is one aspect of it. Another 0:37:08.440 --> 0:37:09.879 part of it that I don't think people are talking 0:37:09.920 --> 0:37:11.759 about enough, and I tried to flick at this through 0:37:11.760 --> 0:37:15.399 my articles in this conversation, is the app situation, right. 0:37:15.520 --> 0:37:18.560 I think the idea is that the Apple user of 0:37:18.600 --> 0:37:21.280 Tim Cook's dream has all of these products, the phone, 0:37:21.320 --> 0:37:25.399 the watch, the iPad, the Mac, et cetera, right right 0:37:25.480 --> 0:37:28.680 at the headset, and you have one app that can 0:37:28.760 --> 0:37:31.520 run across the ecosystem. So whatever Apple device you're on, 0:37:31.800 --> 0:37:34.560 you can run any app you have in a different form. 0:37:34.760 --> 0:37:36.440 You can run logic on your Mac, you can run 0:37:36.440 --> 0:37:38.760 logic on your iPad, you can run logic on your headset, 0:37:38.880 --> 0:37:40.960 you can I message from your watch, from your headset, 0:37:41.000 --> 0:37:43.400 your phone, whatever, and it all just integrates together. 0:37:43.800 --> 0:37:45.960 And that's their biggest that's their biggest asset when you 0:37:46.040 --> 0:37:48.440 get down to it, Like obviously the hardware or the 0:37:48.480 --> 0:37:52.279 software that the acumen, a building, and but like the 0:37:52.320 --> 0:37:55.239 way all of these things work together is ultimately at 0:37:55.239 --> 0:37:59.160 the core of Apples sort of mastery of this industry. 0:37:59.200 --> 0:38:00.200 It's like, but it's a. 0:38:00.080 --> 0:38:03.200 Double edged sword. It's a double edged sword because this 0:38:03.280 --> 0:38:05.080 has been a Timcook thing. I mean, Steve Jobs are 0:38:05.080 --> 0:38:07.120 sort of laying the groundwork for that with iCloud and 0:38:07.160 --> 0:38:09.799 the initial post PC devices as they called it. But 0:38:09.840 --> 0:38:12.360 that's really been a thing, this Timcook era has been pushing. 0:38:12.360 --> 0:38:14.560 I don't mean to credit him specifically, but it has 0:38:14.680 --> 0:38:17.080 been his company the last decade and change, so you know, 0:38:17.120 --> 0:38:20.600 we'll credit leadership to that it has. It's a double 0:38:20.680 --> 0:38:24.920 edged sword because it necessitates Apple doing everything because if 0:38:24.960 --> 0:38:30.280 they miss one potential major consumer technology category, you break 0:38:30.320 --> 0:38:32.839 the ecosystem. The example I like to give is, let's 0:38:32.880 --> 0:38:38.200 say Amazon comes out with an amazing AR headset. Apple 0:38:38.239 --> 0:38:41.200 doesn't have one. Right, everyone wants to buy this Amazon 0:38:41.400 --> 0:38:44.200 ar headset. Then they get exposed to other Amazon products, 0:38:44.200 --> 0:38:46.839 whether it's the Amazon tablets, the Amazon phone, if they 0:38:46.880 --> 0:38:48.360 bring that back to the e buds. 0:38:48.160 --> 0:38:51.960 Right, Right, it's all about ecosystem sort of dominates. 0:38:52.040 --> 0:38:52.160 Right. 0:38:52.200 --> 0:38:54.239 It's like, you don't just want one product, you want 0:38:54.239 --> 0:38:55.640 to be inside of the entire thing. 0:38:56.000 --> 0:38:59.000 So the reliance by Apple on this idea where you're 0:38:59.040 --> 0:39:02.839 owning the whole ecosystem, if they miss one element of it, right, 0:39:03.000 --> 0:39:05.480 even though the HomePod was a complete failure, that's why 0:39:05.480 --> 0:39:07.879 they had to do a HomePod and try a HomePod right, right. 0:39:07.920 --> 0:39:10.000 And so their bet is if the technology industry is 0:39:10.000 --> 0:39:12.160 going to push into headsets, they have to have one too, 0:39:12.200 --> 0:39:14.400 because if they miss on that, yeah, one crack in 0:39:14.400 --> 0:39:18.080 the ecosystem could cost them big time across their other products. 0:39:18.440 --> 0:39:21.560 But you see, you actually just raised an interesting point 0:39:21.560 --> 0:39:23.520 that I meant to bring up earlier and I wanted 0:39:23.520 --> 0:39:26.920 to talk about before we ended. This is what's so interesting, 0:39:27.000 --> 0:39:29.479 Like you're talking about the ecosystem, you're talking about Apple 0:39:29.600 --> 0:39:31.680 missing things. And I think that like one of the 0:39:32.080 --> 0:39:35.839 blind spots Apple has had in some ways historically has 0:39:35.880 --> 0:39:39.040 been things like the Internet and search and these like 0:39:39.239 --> 0:39:43.040 large sort of like online projects that like look at 0:39:43.080 --> 0:39:45.719 maps for instance, right, Like they've they've been playing for 0:39:45.840 --> 0:39:48.120 years playing catch up to Google in all of these 0:39:48.239 --> 0:39:50.320 areas of just like they're like, hey, we just didn't 0:39:50.320 --> 0:39:52.560 see this, we didn't put any money into it. My 0:39:52.640 --> 0:39:54.959 understanding wasn't I feel like this has been said before. 0:39:54.960 --> 0:39:57.920 Steve Jobs actually didn't like the Internet. He wasn't like 0:39:57.960 --> 0:39:59.719 a fan of being online, and like so a lot 0:39:59.760 --> 0:40:02.160 of us were kind of built with like not online 0:40:02.160 --> 0:40:04.960 as a component. But I'm looking now at the landscape, 0:40:04.960 --> 0:40:08.239 and I'm looking at what is the emergent moment that 0:40:08.480 --> 0:40:11.239 is happening. And listen, we're not done with any of 0:40:11.280 --> 0:40:13.160 this stuff yet. We're at the very early endings of 0:40:13.160 --> 0:40:15.120 a lot of this technology that we're starting to see. 0:40:15.360 --> 0:40:17.200 But if you look at what's happening with AI right now, 0:40:17.239 --> 0:40:20.080 for instance, right in these large models, you know whether 0:40:20.120 --> 0:40:23.920 it's mid journey or open AI. Obviously you see Microsoft, 0:40:23.960 --> 0:40:27.080 you see Google now suddenly getting into this like huge 0:40:27.200 --> 0:40:33.640 race for dominance in computing that goes beyond the known 0:40:33.800 --> 0:40:36.000 space that I think we've been in right a type 0:40:36.000 --> 0:40:40.280 of computing that is about us interacting with the machine 0:40:40.280 --> 0:40:43.880 in a way that is naturalistic and responsive, beyond anything 0:40:43.920 --> 0:40:46.239 I think we could have imagined even ten years ago. 0:40:46.840 --> 0:40:49.160 And by the way, Siri is a good example of 0:40:49.200 --> 0:40:52.359 where Apple tried to get into this like assistant game. 0:40:52.400 --> 0:40:55.640 They obviously have a huge foothold there, but everybody knows 0:40:56.360 --> 0:40:59.120 that Siri is worse at everything than many of the 0:40:59.160 --> 0:41:03.600 other assistants, notably Google's assistant right, And so to me, 0:41:03.840 --> 0:41:08.319 like a bold, exciting Apple has got it figured out 0:41:08.320 --> 0:41:10.680 for the future or has sees a pathway forward would 0:41:10.719 --> 0:41:15.160 be something like Apple announces it has acquired open ai, right, 0:41:15.440 --> 0:41:18.200 or Apple has built an AI that is far more 0:41:18.239 --> 0:41:22.080 sophisticated but also focused on privacy and respecting copyright and 0:41:22.080 --> 0:41:24.520 all this other stuff that people are worried about. And 0:41:24.600 --> 0:41:26.720 yet what I see is, this is what's so odd 0:41:26.719 --> 0:41:29.920 to me about this this headset, is that it feels 0:41:29.920 --> 0:41:33.080 like the industry and the Internet and its users are 0:41:33.080 --> 0:41:36.160 going in one direction over here to a different new 0:41:36.239 --> 0:41:38.480 thing that is it's not and I don't think it's 0:41:38.600 --> 0:41:40.640 just hype. I think part of it is like there's 0:41:40.640 --> 0:41:42.600 something underpinning that that's very real. 0:41:42.520 --> 0:41:42.880 I agree. 0:41:42.920 --> 0:41:46.560 Whereas Apple's over here going into this again almost this 0:41:46.680 --> 0:41:52.880 like internal inside the box, not really about outside, not 0:41:52.920 --> 0:41:55.480 really about the Internet, not in some ways even about 0:41:56.520 --> 0:41:58.320 being able to be social. And it just feels like 0:41:58.360 --> 0:42:00.759 these two really divergent paths, and I I I just wonder, 0:42:00.880 --> 0:42:02.839 like does that fit anywhere into this, like the AI 0:42:02.880 --> 0:42:06.720 stuff that's happening and is there any from your sense 0:42:06.960 --> 0:42:08.759 anywhere at Apple or that's starting to be like a 0:42:08.800 --> 0:42:11.799 conversation because it feels like they're missing something right now right. 0:42:12.239 --> 0:42:15.200 I've seen a few people point this out where the 0:42:15.280 --> 0:42:18.839 industry is heading into AI and Apple is a week 0:42:18.840 --> 0:42:22.120 away from heading into XR. Right, two diverging paths, and 0:42:22.160 --> 0:42:25.040 that's certainly true. The way I look at it sort 0:42:25.080 --> 0:42:27.040 of off the cuff here because I haven't given it 0:42:27.280 --> 0:42:32.680 much thought. The XR situation is a platform. AI is 0:42:33.840 --> 0:42:37.919 in my opinion, more feature than platform, and I think 0:42:37.960 --> 0:42:42.040 AI is something that they play very heavily on XR, 0:42:42.480 --> 0:42:44.719 So I don't think it's two different paths. I think 0:42:44.760 --> 0:42:47.239 the two can go together. On the top of my head, 0:42:47.280 --> 0:42:49.280 I can't come up with the most interesting use cases 0:42:49.320 --> 0:42:52.480 for AI in XR, but certainly Apple needs to get 0:42:52.480 --> 0:42:56.000 the ball rolling. I think these chat bots that you see, 0:42:56.280 --> 0:42:58.680 like the chat GPT stuff, Yeah, this is weird, but 0:42:58.719 --> 0:43:00.759 I call it like raw AI. It's like a raw 0:43:00.800 --> 0:43:04.359 implementation of what artificial intelligence can do. And I think 0:43:04.400 --> 0:43:07.799 what Apple does is they take these raw technologies and 0:43:07.840 --> 0:43:09.440 they apply them. 0:43:09.640 --> 0:43:09.839 Right. 0:43:09.960 --> 0:43:12.799 It's like if you look up the definition of technology 0:43:13.080 --> 0:43:17.960 right in Mirriam Webster. I believe the definition is applied sciences, right. 0:43:18.560 --> 0:43:23.160 I think chat GPT's science. I think technology is applied science. 0:43:23.560 --> 0:43:27.800 And I think the ultimate way of showing AI's power 0:43:27.920 --> 0:43:30.560 is applying that. And so if Apple is able to 0:43:30.600 --> 0:43:34.240 take AI and apply it to real world use cases, right, 0:43:34.320 --> 0:43:36.719 to make things easier, to make things better, I think 0:43:36.719 --> 0:43:40.000 that's where AI can really shine. I think Microsoft, from 0:43:40.040 --> 0:43:42.120 the little I've seen so far of what they've shown, 0:43:42.200 --> 0:43:44.600 these things like Copilot, these things that can assist you 0:43:44.640 --> 0:43:46.920 in day to day development of things, I think that's 0:43:46.960 --> 0:43:48.920 where AI can really shine. So I think Microsoft is 0:43:48.960 --> 0:43:51.920 doing a great job. THEAI stuff you're starting to see 0:43:51.920 --> 0:43:54.640 in Google Search and bar and being and such. I 0:43:54.640 --> 0:43:56.880 think that's happening there. I think we're a couple of 0:43:56.920 --> 0:43:59.600 years away from Apple really showing some big news in AI. 0:43:59.680 --> 0:44:02.919 I'm not anticipating rights they had a five year lead, 0:44:02.960 --> 0:44:04.640 another five years behind, right, and so. 0:44:05.000 --> 0:44:06.719 Well, that's the thing is like they feels like they're 0:44:06.719 --> 0:44:08.719 always playing ketchup in these areas that actually end up 0:44:08.760 --> 0:44:12.560 to be huge, huge, like massively important moments in computing. 0:44:12.600 --> 0:44:15.200 It's not to say, look, Apple's like the most valuable 0:44:15.239 --> 0:44:17.279 company in the world, right, like you can't knock. You 0:44:17.280 --> 0:44:19.200 can't be like, well they're bad at business or something. 0:44:19.200 --> 0:44:19.640 That's not it. 0:44:19.680 --> 0:44:20.520 They're doing something right. 0:44:20.520 --> 0:44:22.319 They're doing something right, So like you have to be 0:44:22.320 --> 0:44:24.560 inclined to go like, well, maybe they've got a good 0:44:24.600 --> 0:44:26.880 idea with the headset, but yeah, it just feels like 0:44:26.920 --> 0:44:30.000 it's interesting because because when I was reading your writing 0:44:30.080 --> 0:44:31.719 on this, and there's so much of it that's so 0:44:31.719 --> 0:44:34.000 good and I encourage everybody listen to go and read it, 0:44:34.800 --> 0:44:38.520 but like it just feels like a weird almost an artifact. 0:44:38.640 --> 0:44:42.279 And so I guess their challenge here will be can 0:44:42.320 --> 0:44:46.120 they make something that feels like yesterday's sort of tech 0:44:46.239 --> 0:44:50.480 or yesterday's future feel like tomorrow's You know. 0:44:51.040 --> 0:44:54.480 I think yes, because that future never took off, right, 0:44:54.520 --> 0:44:56.080 I mean I think they really believe that it never 0:44:56.160 --> 0:44:58.439 took off, And you know, based on the tech that's 0:44:58.480 --> 0:45:00.359 going to be in there, I really think it's going 0:45:00.400 --> 0:45:03.680 to blow the water off of anything. I mean, it's 0:45:03.719 --> 0:45:08.120 it's extremely powerful, extremely advanced device. The bigger question to 0:45:08.120 --> 0:45:10.120 me is do people really want that and are people 0:45:10.200 --> 0:45:12.080 going to be sold on that? And I think that's 0:45:12.160 --> 0:45:14.880 something that's going to take time. I certainly could be 0:45:14.880 --> 0:45:17.040 sold on it. But you know I haven't used it, right, 0:45:17.080 --> 0:45:18.839 I haven't played with these things for an extended period 0:45:18.880 --> 0:45:19.160 of time. 0:45:19.280 --> 0:45:21.520 So you claim right, So I claim you claim. Mark. 0:45:21.719 --> 0:45:23.560 We're actually talking to you from one right now and 0:45:23.600 --> 0:45:25.719 it has this in feat right there. 0:45:25.920 --> 0:45:27.400 That's that's fucking amazing. 0:45:27.880 --> 0:45:29.120 I mean, how cool would it be if we were 0:45:29.160 --> 0:45:30.920 doing this in virtual reality where it felt like we 0:45:30.920 --> 0:45:32.600 were in the same living room together, right? 0:45:32.640 --> 0:45:34.600 Well, would it be cool? That's a question. I think 0:45:34.640 --> 0:45:37.560 that I have done that. I have done podcasts in 0:45:37.640 --> 0:45:41.960 virtual reality and it was but this was like five, six, 0:45:42.080 --> 0:45:44.800 seven years ago. It was like shit, you know, yeah, 0:45:44.840 --> 0:45:46.080 what would it be like? I guess we're going to 0:45:46.120 --> 0:45:48.719 find out in a few days. Mark, listen, I know 0:45:48.719 --> 0:45:50.600 you got to go. Thank you so much for doing this. 0:45:50.719 --> 0:45:51.440 Thanks for having me. 0:45:51.520 --> 0:45:53.840 It's this a brilliant conversation, super interesting. You got to 0:45:53.840 --> 0:45:55.880 come back. We're going to talk more about all of 0:45:55.960 --> 0:45:58.799 the unearthed secrets that you've that you've gotten into because 0:45:58.800 --> 0:46:00.000 it's fascinating stuff. 0:46:00.160 --> 0:46:01.680 Thank you. And if I can just give a shout 0:46:01.680 --> 0:46:04.040 out anyone wants to read more, it's Bloomberg dot com 0:46:04.040 --> 0:46:06.479 slash power on or Twitter dot com slash Mark Erman 0:46:06.840 --> 0:46:08.880 and thanks Josh. It was an honor to bear with 0:46:08.920 --> 0:46:10.239 you and looking forward to next time. 0:46:10.640 --> 0:46:18.920 Thanks for joining. Well that is our show. I mean, 0:46:18.960 --> 0:46:21.880 there are several hundred more hours of conversation I would 0:46:21.920 --> 0:46:24.040 like to have with Mark, but we all have things 0:46:24.080 --> 0:46:28.239 we've got to do. Anyhow, we will be back next 0:46:28.239 --> 0:46:33.280 week with more what future as you know, and as always, 0:46:33.560 --> 0:46:35.800 I wish you and your family the very best