1
00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,400
Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to What Future. I'm your host Joshua Topolski,

2
00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,759
Speaker 1: and today on the podcast, boy have we got one

3
00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:29,240
Speaker 1: for you? Boy oh boy. I'm very excited because I

4
00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:34,920
Speaker 1: have been thinking a lot about reality and how terrible

5
00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,519
Speaker 1: it is and how I'd like to escape it. I

6
00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:40,760
Speaker 1: feel like I'm not giving reality a good affair shake.

7
00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,400
Speaker 1: The truth is reality is actually pretty excellent, unless you

8
00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,120
Speaker 1: read the news. I don't recommend that. But there's been

9
00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,640
Speaker 1: a lot of talk recently about a new Apple product

10
00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,320
Speaker 1: that is coming out which is supposedly going to be

11
00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:55,160
Speaker 1: a headset, a thing you wear on your face that

12
00:00:55,240 --> 00:01:00,640
Speaker 1: does virtual reality and augmented reality, and suppose will have

13
00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,520
Speaker 1: a screen that shows your eyeballs on it when you're

14
00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,559
Speaker 1: using it, which sounds very normal and not dystopian at all,

15
00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,880
Speaker 1: and I'm sure lots of people will really enjoy that. Anyhow,

16
00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:11,800
Speaker 1: there has been a ton of great writing done by

17
00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,399
Speaker 1: Mark German at Bloomberg. I am a huge fan of his,

18
00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:17,679
Speaker 1: and we've got him on the show today to get

19
00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:20,039
Speaker 1: into the guts of the Apple headset and all of

20
00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,800
Speaker 1: what the company's working on around that. So let's get

21
00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:43,000
Speaker 1: into this conversation because I have got a lot to say.

22
00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:47,000
Speaker 1: You are like probably at the top of the pyramid

23
00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:51,480
Speaker 1: of Apple scoopers, Like you have more inside info on

24
00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,640
Speaker 1: this company than I think anybody has ever had in

25
00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,120
Speaker 1: my experience, and I've been reading, as you well know,

26
00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:58,880
Speaker 1: I've been reading and writing about this shit for a

27
00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,640
Speaker 1: long time. You are consistently one hundred percent correct with them,

28
00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:04,960
Speaker 1: which is or like ninety percent correct with them, which

29
00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,200
Speaker 1: is very rare. So first, I want to say kudos

30
00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,960
Speaker 1: to you for being some kind of Apple Ninja's very

31
00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:14,440
Speaker 1: strange situation. But I applaud you, Thank you. But the

32
00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:16,120
Speaker 1: reason I want to talk to you is because we

33
00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:20,040
Speaker 1: are on the precipice supposedly, as so you claim on

34
00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:25,919
Speaker 1: the precipice of Apple releasing a mixed reality headset? Does

35
00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,480
Speaker 1: VR and AR? Correct? Stop me if any of this

36
00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,680
Speaker 1: sounds incorrect. Okay, they've been working on this headset. It's

37
00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:33,600
Speaker 1: a thing you wear on your face, you wear over

38
00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,320
Speaker 1: your eyes. It does VR, it does AR. It is

39
00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:41,240
Speaker 1: a product that you claim that Apple is going to announce.

40
00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,120
Speaker 1: Tim Cook is going to announce on stage at WWDC

41
00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,359
Speaker 1: on June Is it fifth? Is that the date? Yeah?

42
00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:49,240
Speaker 2: June fifth, Monday, June fifth.

43
00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,040
Speaker 1: Literally like next week, right, Yes, just give us the

44
00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:54,360
Speaker 1: quick like where did this come from? Because I have

45
00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,600
Speaker 1: a lot of questions about it? Yes, you just share

46
00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:58,639
Speaker 1: whatever you think is like a good setup for this thing.

47
00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,000
Speaker 2: Kicked off after the Apple Watch came out in twenty fifteen.

48
00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,760
Speaker 2: They were sort of looking for their next idea, right.

49
00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,880
Speaker 2: The hardware engineering group hired a guy named Mike Rockwell,

50
00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,160
Speaker 2: who was the CTO of Dolby and before that was

51
00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:17,200
Speaker 2: the CTO of Avid super Into Displays, super Into VR,

52
00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:23,000
Speaker 2: super Into high quality Audio. They hired Tom Holmansen, who

53
00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,720
Speaker 2: was the creator of THHX, which is the studio behind

54
00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,960
Speaker 2: the audio from Star Wars, which is, as everyone knows,

55
00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:35,520
Speaker 2: one of the paramount reasons people love Star Wars is

56
00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,080
Speaker 2: because of the soundtrack, right, and so this is a

57
00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,880
Speaker 2: music expert, and Apple's design team at the same time

58
00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:46,920
Speaker 2: was looking at virtual reality, augmented reality head worn devices,

59
00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,400
Speaker 2: and you know, one thing led to another. They came

60
00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,040
Speaker 2: together and they started working on this device. They did

61
00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:58,160
Speaker 2: many explorations around use cases. They used Samsung Gear vrs,

62
00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,680
Speaker 2: they used HDC vibes, they used every Nascent and VR

63
00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,280
Speaker 2: headset that was available eight years ago to run demos

64
00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,520
Speaker 2: on demo to Tim Cook, the executive team, the board

65
00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:07,160
Speaker 2: of directors.

66
00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,200
Speaker 1: Right, eight years ago they started working on this.

67
00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:12,880
Speaker 2: This is eight years ago, right. And you remember when

68
00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,320
Speaker 2: Steve Jobs announced the original iPhone, he said, this is

69
00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,080
Speaker 2: a day I've been looking forward to for two and

70
00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:19,599
Speaker 2: a half years, right.

71
00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:20,000
Speaker 1: Right.

72
00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,680
Speaker 2: You remember when the Apple Watch was announced, they said

73
00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,039
Speaker 2: that was about a two to three year development process. Right,

74
00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,880
Speaker 2: We're talking seven eight years here. Now there's more to it,

75
00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,880
Speaker 2: but you know that's a long development process.

76
00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:33,960
Speaker 1: I mean, here's what I'll say. I mean, I want

77
00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,240
Speaker 1: to hear all this backstory, but like I mean, I'm

78
00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:38,160
Speaker 1: a little bit in disbelief, like if you're in. By

79
00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,120
Speaker 1: the way, your scoop record, as I said at the

80
00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,039
Speaker 1: top of this, is very good. So you know, it's

81
00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:45,400
Speaker 1: rare that you write something and with this much detail,

82
00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:47,600
Speaker 1: Like look at the background here that you're sharing and

83
00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,839
Speaker 1: the stuff that you shared in your stories on Bloomberg. Right,

84
00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,200
Speaker 1: And I tweeted about this. I was and a lot

85
00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,920
Speaker 1: of people responded to this feels like the most unlike

86
00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,159
Speaker 1: Apple thing that I've ever heard of. It's like the

87
00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:02,360
Speaker 1: development process, the infighting. You you wrote about the infighting there,

88
00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,400
Speaker 1: the fact that this is a device that sits on

89
00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,240
Speaker 1: your face. Apple often comes into a market and like

90
00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:11,040
Speaker 1: it's like there's a little bit of a market and

91
00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:12,280
Speaker 1: they blow it up and they turn it into a

92
00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,000
Speaker 1: huge market. I don't even know if there is a

93
00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:19,200
Speaker 1: market for this in a widespread way, because like, getting

94
00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,880
Speaker 1: people to wear anything on their face is difficult. People

95
00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:26,440
Speaker 1: get laser surgery on their eyes to avoid wearing glasses, right,

96
00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:28,560
Speaker 1: and I like glasses, Like I'm a glass.

97
00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,440
Speaker 2: I'll tell you so. A few years ago, they were

98
00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:32,920
Speaker 2: trying to figure out how they can get the weight

99
00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,839
Speaker 2: down right in the device and the overall size. So

100
00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,719
Speaker 2: you're kind of screw your glasses my front because you're

101
00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:40,159
Speaker 2: not going to be able to wear those and the

102
00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:41,640
Speaker 2: headset together.

103
00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,599
Speaker 1: Okay, I mean that alone sounds okay. See everything you're saying.

104
00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,080
Speaker 1: See when I hear this shit, what I think is

105
00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:48,680
Speaker 1: and this is why I'm so like I wanted to

106
00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,400
Speaker 1: talk to you because I this just sounds like it's

107
00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:52,279
Speaker 1: not going to happen.

108
00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,680
Speaker 2: Well, there's going to be a prescription system where you

109
00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,400
Speaker 2: pay a couple hundred bucks and you'scriptions.

110
00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,040
Speaker 1: Does that sound like something Apple would do?

111
00:05:59,400 --> 00:05:59,479
Speaker 2: Like?

112
00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:00,440
Speaker 1: Does it? Actually?

113
00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:05,520
Speaker 2: It does? Okay, that specific feature, yes, but if you're

114
00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,919
Speaker 2: asking about this device in general, the answer would be no,

115
00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:13,000
Speaker 2: this is definitely the new Apple so to speak. Right, right,

116
00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,600
Speaker 2: this is they're trying something new. You know, depending on

117
00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:19,120
Speaker 2: who you talk to there, there's mixed confidence in how

118
00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:21,280
Speaker 2: this thing is going to do. But I think the

119
00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,479
Speaker 2: through line, what most people at the company, the decision

120
00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,599
Speaker 2: makers have understood, is that this thing is going to

121
00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,680
Speaker 2: start off remarkably slow. I think even maybe slower than

122
00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,760
Speaker 2: the Apple Watch. Right, actually, probably much slower than the

123
00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:35,280
Speaker 2: Apple Watch.

124
00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:37,920
Speaker 1: I would imagine it's going to be expensive too, right,

125
00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:38,600
Speaker 1: It's not cheap.

126
00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,039
Speaker 2: It's going to be expensive. It's going to be roughly

127
00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:45,520
Speaker 2: three thousand dollars. So I would say anywhere from the

128
00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:49,200
Speaker 2: high twos to the low threes. Now that's pretty you know,

129
00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,119
Speaker 2: eye melting. But if you look at the XR market

130
00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,599
Speaker 2: in general, they're probably in the Hollow Lens to Magic

131
00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,760
Speaker 2: Leap price range. Yeah, we know those two devices failed.

132
00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,159
Speaker 1: But I was going to say, Magic Leap is like

133
00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,520
Speaker 1: a they'll teach the story of Magical Leap in business

134
00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,520
Speaker 1: classes about like this vaporware company. Right, Like Magic Leap

135
00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:09,400
Speaker 1: was a company that was making a headset that people

136
00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,280
Speaker 1: were like, this is like magic. Literally when you put

137
00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,080
Speaker 1: it on, you're transported. It can do anything. It's the

138
00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,559
Speaker 1: it's the be all, end all, it's the next iPhone whatever.

139
00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:19,320
Speaker 1: And then the company just has fizzled out, like they'd

140
00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,400
Speaker 1: never been able to ship any real meaningful product, certainly

141
00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:26,440
Speaker 1: not a consumer facing product, right, Hollo lens. That's Microsoft's entrant, right,

142
00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,320
Speaker 1: which was a mixed reality. I mean, I think they

143
00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:34,120
Speaker 1: basically wanted to target enterprise, right. It was like a business,

144
00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:37,680
Speaker 1: a lab maybe like a warehouse type of device you

145
00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,080
Speaker 1: might use like for some ar assisted stuff. That's also

146
00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,160
Speaker 1: kind of fizzled, right, it has.

147
00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,480
Speaker 2: But Apple's going to shoehorn this thing into working out.

148
00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:47,600
Speaker 2: I mean that's my belief.

149
00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:50,880
Speaker 1: You think this is not only that this is going

150
00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,600
Speaker 1: to happen for real, you believe that that they're going

151
00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:54,640
Speaker 1: to announce this product.

152
00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:56,160
Speaker 2: I'm in trouble if they don't.

153
00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,800
Speaker 1: But yes, right of course, yes, But I mean, you know, listen,

154
00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,280
Speaker 1: the way you write it, though, is the kind of

155
00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,440
Speaker 1: product that they could get very close to and then

156
00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:07,800
Speaker 1: look at it, do the demo and say, you know what,

157
00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,160
Speaker 1: like it's not there yet, right, Like that that has

158
00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:11,520
Speaker 1: happened well.

159
00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:13,800
Speaker 2: Back to the like the more comparing the timelines on

160
00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,360
Speaker 2: development processes three years for the previous two products and

161
00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,560
Speaker 2: then eight years for this. Let's see, this has been

162
00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:24,160
Speaker 2: delayed three or four times. The original original original pipe

163
00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,600
Speaker 2: dream was twenty twenty. Obviously that got pushed to twenty one,

164
00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,760
Speaker 2: then twenty two, and then twenty three. They were going

165
00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,000
Speaker 2: to announce it in January, then they were gonna announce

166
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,439
Speaker 2: it in the spring. Right, and here we are WWDC.

167
00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,480
Speaker 2: It's it's locked, It's it's locked and loaded. At this point,

168
00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:41,760
Speaker 2: I don't see any way around that.

169
00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,480
Speaker 1: Can you describe it like physically? Do you know? Have

170
00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:46,120
Speaker 1: you seen it? Have you tried it?

171
00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:48,320
Speaker 2: I have not tried it. I've tried the Quest three,

172
00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:49,680
Speaker 2: but I have not tried this one.

173
00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,040
Speaker 1: Okay, but the Quest three is not we're not talking it.

174
00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,080
Speaker 1: That's not in the same ballpark. No I know has

175
00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,520
Speaker 1: this right? So you wrote about it having an external

176
00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:59,120
Speaker 1: battery pack. First off, is that staying.

177
00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,160
Speaker 2: You know, like the mag Safe battery like they started

178
00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:03,439
Speaker 2: selling a few years that you can put on the

179
00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,040
Speaker 2: back of the iPhone anchor if you other companies sell

180
00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,760
Speaker 2: that looks like that about bigger. It's about the size

181
00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,800
Speaker 2: of an iPhone and you connected over a cable. The

182
00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:14,880
Speaker 2: cable is lodged into the battery pack, you plug it

183
00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:17,480
Speaker 2: into the headset and it goes over a wire. And

184
00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,360
Speaker 2: the two considerations there were safety and weight. Obviously, with

185
00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:23,840
Speaker 2: the product like this, you wanted as portable as possible

186
00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,480
Speaker 2: and as light as possible, right, and getting the battery

187
00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,640
Speaker 2: out of there was a big help in my thinking,

188
00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:31,959
Speaker 2: is even though they wanted to get the battery in

189
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,439
Speaker 2: there initially, and even though for these types of products

190
00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:36,400
Speaker 2: you do want the battery to eventually be in the

191
00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,199
Speaker 2: frame itself. Remember the Apple Wash they launched with one

192
00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,000
Speaker 2: day of battery life, and the initial speculation was, oh,

193
00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,120
Speaker 2: over time, they're going to increase the battery life. Now sure,

194
00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:48,720
Speaker 2: ten years later we got the Apple Watch Ultro.

195
00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's only a little bit increased. It's like, right,

196
00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:53,920
Speaker 1: two three days instead of one. It's not that great,

197
00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:55,040
Speaker 1: that's right.

198
00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,480
Speaker 2: But in what they did, they had two options, right,

199
00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:02,800
Speaker 2: they had let's add to the battery life, or let's

200
00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,480
Speaker 2: add more and more power and functionality without reducing the

201
00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:06,240
Speaker 2: battery life.

202
00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:07,000
Speaker 1: Right.

203
00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,280
Speaker 2: They've done that with the iPad as well. Obviously, the

204
00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,440
Speaker 2: iPhone's a bit different they had to go in a

205
00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,920
Speaker 2: situation where they had to increase the performance and increase

206
00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:17,800
Speaker 2: battery life. Right, but I think the headset were probably

207
00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,040
Speaker 2: locked into this external battery situation for years to come,

208
00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,680
Speaker 2: and ideas people are gonna be okay with that, let's

209
00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,200
Speaker 2: add more performance rather than sort of taper it down

210
00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,120
Speaker 2: and get the battery back inside. I want to talk

211
00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:31,040
Speaker 2: about the naming thing.

212
00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:32,640
Speaker 1: For a minute though, Yeah, yeah, please do it, please

213
00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:33,400
Speaker 1: do So.

214
00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,120
Speaker 2: They've trademarked quite a few names, right, So, they trademarked

215
00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,920
Speaker 2: the name Reality one. They trademarked the name Reality Pro.

216
00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:46,359
Speaker 2: They've trademarked a few potential operating system names. They've trademarked

217
00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:50,559
Speaker 2: the name Reality OS. They've trade marked the name XROS.

218
00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,959
Speaker 2: They've trademarked the name Reality PROS and XR pros. Right,

219
00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,600
Speaker 2: here's what I can tell you for fact, Right, for fact,

220
00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,680
Speaker 2: the OS itself is going to be called XR OS.

221
00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:02,400
Speaker 1: Right.

222
00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:04,960
Speaker 2: They were originally going to call it Reality OS. It

223
00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,920
Speaker 2: was sort of the working title, so to speak. It

224
00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,319
Speaker 2: was your this is my next before the verbs. Right.

225
00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,760
Speaker 1: We don't like that, yeah, yeah, right, So it was.

226
00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,000
Speaker 2: Going to be Reality OS, and then last year they

227
00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:20,040
Speaker 2: moved from the working title to the real name, which

228
00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:23,480
Speaker 2: is XR OS right. Now. I think there are a

229
00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:25,640
Speaker 2: couple of reasons for that. One. I think the word

230
00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:32,080
Speaker 2: reality probably doesn't translate so cleanly internationally, right, But I

231
00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:34,840
Speaker 2: think it's a more understandable term, at least in the

232
00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:36,360
Speaker 2: English language than x R.

233
00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,360
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, XR sounds like a motorcycle, right.

234
00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,720
Speaker 2: But it also sounds a little bit more high tech, right,

235
00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,600
Speaker 2: And Apples tries to sort of bridge that idea of

236
00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:48,079
Speaker 2: mixing tech with you know, mass understanding. So it's a

237
00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,640
Speaker 2: little odd there. But this is a highly technical product,

238
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:53,800
Speaker 2: and I think it's initially going to appeal to a

239
00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,840
Speaker 2: very niche audience, So perhaps it makes sense. What they

240
00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,040
Speaker 2: really are trying to do is sort of, in their minds,

241
00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,000
Speaker 2: create this x mixed reality market, and so it would

242
00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:05,240
Speaker 2: help them own that market from a marketing standpoint, the

243
00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,880
Speaker 2: XR market. Back to the naming conventions, so they went

244
00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,959
Speaker 2: from reality OS right to XROS. And if you have

245
00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,520
Speaker 2: an operating system called reality OS, the logic would be

246
00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,720
Speaker 2: that the device itself would be called the reality right

247
00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,320
Speaker 2: or the Reality pro, just like the iPad runs iPad OS,

248
00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,560
Speaker 2: the watch, watch OS, TV t v OS et cetera. Right,

249
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:32,160
Speaker 2: they've switched to XROS on the operating system name. Does

250
00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:36,359
Speaker 2: that mean the device is called the XR Pro running XROS.

251
00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,000
Speaker 2: Does it make sense to have a Reality Pro running

252
00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:40,720
Speaker 2: XROS or does it make more sense to have an

253
00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,720
Speaker 2: XR pro running XROS? What Apple release a product called

254
00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,360
Speaker 2: the XR Pro, Like the mass consumer is not going

255
00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:51,160
Speaker 2: to know what XR pro means? Right? And so those

256
00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,560
Speaker 2: are the questions I'd like to see answered, which will

257
00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:57,080
Speaker 2: obviously be answered. It's WWDC, Right, That's what's been on

258
00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:57,800
Speaker 2: my mind lately.

259
00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:02,439
Speaker 1: That's interesting. XR is I mean presumably that means mixed reality, right?

260
00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:04,520
Speaker 1: Is that what we're supposed to be XR is? Or

261
00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,280
Speaker 1: I mean x has usually not used the mixed but

262
00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:11,640
Speaker 1: crossed reality, mixed reality whatever let's call it. That makes

263
00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,560
Speaker 1: sense in a global way of describing it, right, like

264
00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,840
Speaker 1: the for the format. Forget about whether they call it

265
00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,120
Speaker 1: reality or XR. Look, I've seen a lot of really

266
00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:23,760
Speaker 1: impressive demos of mixed reality, and I'm sure you have

267
00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:25,680
Speaker 1: as well. I've seen a lot of and no doubt

268
00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:27,680
Speaker 1: Apple can do this better than anybody. Like, I'm not

269
00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:31,800
Speaker 1: questioning that they can't execute something that's a better product, right,

270
00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,520
Speaker 1: we know that they can. They can take a smartphone,

271
00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:36,040
Speaker 1: You've seen a million of them, and they can make

272
00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,520
Speaker 1: it something really special and really like cohesive. What I

273
00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,040
Speaker 1: wonder though, in what's sort of not in your in

274
00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:47,319
Speaker 1: that bigger piece, is a question about the consumer aspect

275
00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,439
Speaker 1: of it, the relationship to consumer desire. Listen, as a

276
00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,400
Speaker 1: guy who's tried all the VR headsets, was unbelievably excited

277
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,000
Speaker 1: about Oculus when they first appeared. Was like the biggest

278
00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:00,320
Speaker 1: fan in the world. I've dreamed of VR my whole life.

279
00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,080
Speaker 1: Like all of the experiences have not only have they

280
00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,360
Speaker 1: been like ultimately sort of impressive, but disappointing in the

281
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,640
Speaker 1: long run. What I found is like, oh, wearing this

282
00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:12,880
Speaker 1: thing on my head and being removed from reality and

283
00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:16,319
Speaker 1: having these experiences, it's a very kind of like singular

284
00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,320
Speaker 1: private experience that you can only do once in a while.

285
00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:21,960
Speaker 1: And I'm a nerd, Okay, remember I'm one of the

286
00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,640
Speaker 1: biggest fucking nerds in the world. They also make me

287
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,480
Speaker 1: motion sick, Okay, Like, those experiences.

288
00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,280
Speaker 2: Have problems, right, I don't want to get too tmi.

289
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,520
Speaker 2: But the first time I tried the quest this was

290
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:38,000
Speaker 2: the original quest. I had lunch before using it. It

291
00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,560
Speaker 2: wasn't so pretty and so, oh my god, you really

292
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,960
Speaker 2: got to get the IPD correct right, the pupil distance.

293
00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:45,600
Speaker 1: Right, you have to the latency has to be But

294
00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,240
Speaker 1: even then, I don't know that. Like you still are

295
00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,640
Speaker 1: challenged by lots of different things. But so this is

296
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,480
Speaker 1: the thing, Like I understand consumers wear watches, right, Like

297
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,280
Speaker 1: I can make an art. I can hear the argument

298
00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,160
Speaker 1: at Apple like, hey, they wear these things in their wrists, right,

299
00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:00,800
Speaker 1: maybe more people I would wear it if we could

300
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:02,560
Speaker 1: give them a reason to put it on. You know,

301
00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:04,480
Speaker 1: there's already health trackers. We know that's a big market.

302
00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:06,920
Speaker 1: We could bite into that market. There's already a watch market.

303
00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:08,360
Speaker 1: It's a big market. We know we could bite into

304
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:10,880
Speaker 1: that market. Maybe not everybody wants to wear the Apple Watch,

305
00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:12,880
Speaker 1: but we can bring people around over time, and they

306
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:14,720
Speaker 1: certainly did. Like I'm one of those people's like I

307
00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:16,480
Speaker 1: don't want I don't need it, And then I was like, wow,

308
00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:17,440
Speaker 1: I love wearing it.

309
00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:18,720
Speaker 2: I was the same, I could believe it or not.

310
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:20,920
Speaker 2: I didn't wear an Apple Watch until the series five.

311
00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:23,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I tried a couple of them, and

312
00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:25,200
Speaker 1: I was like, it's not for me. I wore regular

313
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,960
Speaker 1: analog watches, and then like the last couple of years,

314
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,440
Speaker 1: I was started wearing a garment for exercise and I

315
00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:32,280
Speaker 1: was like oh. When the Aultra came out, I was like, Okay,

316
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:43,840
Speaker 1: this is like actually what I want. Yeah, But here's

317
00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,720
Speaker 1: the thing I am not hearing or seeing. And I

318
00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:48,600
Speaker 1: say this as a person who would love to see

319
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,480
Speaker 1: a real broad consumer use case. I feel like when

320
00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:54,760
Speaker 1: you write about it, it feels like this product from

321
00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,520
Speaker 1: that era that you describe as like which where the

322
00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,760
Speaker 1: HCC is getting into it and quest is coming, you know, meta,

323
00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,240
Speaker 1: it buys oculus and they start doing question and again

324
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:07,600
Speaker 1: and I get it. Samsung was trying to do VR stuff.

325
00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,280
Speaker 1: It's like many many years ago. This feels like a

326
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,480
Speaker 1: product from a time when the excitement around that still

327
00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:15,360
Speaker 1: seem new and like possible.

328
00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:15,760
Speaker 2: Right.

329
00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,640
Speaker 1: I don't think consumers have embraced these products and even

330
00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,840
Speaker 1: want them. And so what is Apple saying internally or

331
00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:24,880
Speaker 1: what are they how are they testing internally? I know

332
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,280
Speaker 1: they're like the consumer doesn't know what it wants or whatever,

333
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:29,560
Speaker 1: but can you give me some color on like what's

334
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,520
Speaker 1: going on with their relationship to a consumer audience for this.

335
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:34,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that is a good question. You know,

336
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:36,560
Speaker 2: if you pull one hundred people on the street to

337
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,240
Speaker 2: ask them if this is something that they're going to

338
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:40,040
Speaker 2: use on a daily basis, the number is going to

339
00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,440
Speaker 2: probably be incredibly small. What I think is that they

340
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,760
Speaker 2: see this as a very very long term thing, like

341
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,320
Speaker 2: ten years long term. And one thing I believe they're

342
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,240
Speaker 2: going to try to do is position it as quote,

343
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,960
Speaker 2: the future of the computer. I think they see this

344
00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,960
Speaker 2: as something that's a Mac replacement or an iPad replacement,

345
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:02,800
Speaker 2: So maybe five years from now you won't own a Mac,

346
00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:07,400
Speaker 2: you'll own a headset instead. I say that as being

347
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,360
Speaker 2: around long enough to know how many people were saying

348
00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:13,119
Speaker 2: that about the iPad, and I know very few people

349
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,760
Speaker 2: personally who've transitioned from a Mac to an iPad. Fully,

350
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,880
Speaker 2: I will say there are millions of people who have right,

351
00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,479
Speaker 2: so don't get me wrong, but I think it's going

352
00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:24,840
Speaker 2: to play out similarly to that. I mean, the best

353
00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,679
Speaker 2: estimates that I'm hearing are the most optimistic estimates I'm hearing.

354
00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,399
Speaker 2: Is this bringing in about twenty five billion a year

355
00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,119
Speaker 2: in revenue. That puts it on part the iPad and

356
00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,200
Speaker 2: the Apple Watch, which is not nothing. It's not nothing

357
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,760
Speaker 2: for Apple to show growth that's good enough. They're going

358
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,159
Speaker 2: to make a big return on this investment. Within a

359
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,760
Speaker 2: few years. They're going to become the market leader in

360
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,640
Speaker 2: XR in terms of unit sales and revenue probably within

361
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,639
Speaker 2: six months, or revenue within six months. Unit sales probably

362
00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,360
Speaker 2: not as quickly. So you know, from a market standpoint,

363
00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,920
Speaker 2: it's going to be a success out of the gate.

364
00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,080
Speaker 2: Apple standpoint, it's going to be a flop out of

365
00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,760
Speaker 2: the gate, I think, but eventually be hugely successful. Like

366
00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,280
Speaker 2: I really believe in this long term you do because

367
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,240
Speaker 2: of the investment, Yeah, I do. The ga Apple's not

368
00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:10,720
Speaker 2: going to give up on this, right, even if it

369
00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,240
Speaker 2: takes five ten years. They're going to shoehorn this thing

370
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:15,760
Speaker 2: till it works out. You know, the price is going

371
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,119
Speaker 2: to come down eventually too. You're going to get new

372
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,760
Speaker 2: features like cellular. There are going to be big enough

373
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,640
Speaker 2: improvements and a big marketing budget behind it to get

374
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:25,960
Speaker 2: people interested in this. Right, They're going to make a

375
00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,080
Speaker 2: whole big deal about this thing in Apple retail stores.

376
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,320
Speaker 2: It's going to drive foot traffic. They're going to try

377
00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:32,840
Speaker 2: selling other products to people who are just coming in

378
00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:36,160
Speaker 2: to try this thing on. It'll be a big marketing exer,

379
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:36,359
Speaker 2: so a.

380
00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,760
Speaker 1: Lot of accessories, I'm sure a lot of accessories. Right. So,

381
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,159
Speaker 1: like everything you're describing sounds very app right, and I

382
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,760
Speaker 1: think like the long the long play is possible, right,

383
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:46,600
Speaker 1: They definitely like the I mean, I've had a good

384
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,000
Speaker 1: example of something that has never found a perfect home,

385
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,480
Speaker 1: but definitely there's a big market for it. And they've

386
00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,399
Speaker 1: created that market really for tablets, right, right, And I

387
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,919
Speaker 1: think you're right, Like I've grown to become an iPad user,

388
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,560
Speaker 1: and in fact, they just released some greats that like Logic,

389
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,359
Speaker 1: the music software that has been Mac only for a

390
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:07,720
Speaker 1: really long time. They were a music guy before this, right,

391
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:08,680
Speaker 1: I used to produce music.

392
00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:10,840
Speaker 2: Right, I'm curious what you think, Well, I'll.

393
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:12,360
Speaker 1: Tell you what I think. I think it's fucking amazing.

394
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:14,520
Speaker 1: And I have been sitting on my iPad at night,

395
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,200
Speaker 1: like in my downtime, making music in Logic. Now there's

396
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:19,919
Speaker 1: some stuff that's like a little bit yanky because it's

397
00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,320
Speaker 1: like the iPad the way it works is just weird

398
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,280
Speaker 1: for things where you need lots of windows, like it

399
00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:27,800
Speaker 1: just doesn't want to do that. But like in terms

400
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,840
Speaker 1: of a tool. It's like unbelievably powerful and really really

401
00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:32,600
Speaker 1: good for what it's like what you want it to be.

402
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:34,520
Speaker 2: And I think it's going to work in the headset.

403
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:36,440
Speaker 2: I think that app run in the headset.

404
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,400
Speaker 1: So that sounds like a super fun like I can see,

405
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:41,520
Speaker 1: like listen, I mean Jaron Lanier, who is the guy

406
00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:45,120
Speaker 1: who basically invented VR, who's written about technology for years,

407
00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,720
Speaker 1: for decades and decades, he's really like become like a

408
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,919
Speaker 1: philosopher when it comes to this technology. Originally, you know,

409
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,760
Speaker 1: kind of created VR for this purpose of working in

410
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:56,560
Speaker 1: a larger space, Like he was dealing with these really

411
00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:58,560
Speaker 1: large numbers that you couldn't look out on a monitor.

412
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,560
Speaker 1: So I see the commercial applications there, right, I can

413
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:04,960
Speaker 1: see like there's going to be places, like I said,

414
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,920
Speaker 1: where hollow Lens was maybe targeting, or where magic Leap

415
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:09,760
Speaker 1: hope to target where I can see more of a

416
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,960
Speaker 1: retail or commercial application. What's so weird to me though,

417
00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:17,520
Speaker 1: is if you look at the landscape of today, right

418
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,800
Speaker 1: so peak COVID, I'd see this as being a really

419
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,359
Speaker 1: attractive product, right like when we were had peak COVID,

420
00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,360
Speaker 1: when everybody was at home we had lockdowns, we had

421
00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,800
Speaker 1: like everybody was scared to kind of go out and socialize.

422
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,160
Speaker 1: Like I think that's when you know, that's when Facebook

423
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,800
Speaker 1: tried to kind of capture with their metaverse bullshit. They

424
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,360
Speaker 1: kind of tried to capture this moment of like, hey,

425
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,280
Speaker 1: we're going to all move to this different kind of

426
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,560
Speaker 1: like way of communicating and computing and working and blah

427
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,800
Speaker 1: blah blah. But I feel like if you look at

428
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,280
Speaker 1: the hit rate now again and maybe this Apple sees

429
00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,119
Speaker 1: that as a market opportunity, it feels like such an

430
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:54,080
Speaker 1: off key entry. Like we've seen so many versions of

431
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,840
Speaker 1: this that had been really rejected and in fact, like

432
00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,280
Speaker 1: none surprisingly, but Facebook's huge pivot was basically rejected as

433
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,159
Speaker 1: this concept of the metaverse and being more like what

434
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,800
Speaker 1: I see from society. And frankly, what Tim Cook has

435
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 1: actually said at many intervals on stage is like people

436
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,600
Speaker 1: want less of this, like of this stuff in their life.

437
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,840
Speaker 1: They want to be less immersed in technology. When they

438
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:19,399
Speaker 1: talked about the watch, they were like, we want you

439
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,280
Speaker 1: to be less distracted by your phone and you can

440
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 1: get up on your you know, do your thing. You

441
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 1: can just glance at your watch and all this it

442
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,119
Speaker 1: just feels like it flies in the face of And

443
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 1: Tim Cook was a big part of this, right, Like

444
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,160
Speaker 1: he pushed this, This is like his product in some way,

445
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:34,960
Speaker 1: he wanted this to happen. I mean, he runs the company.

446
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:37,400
Speaker 1: This doesn't feel like it flies in the face of

447
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,199
Speaker 1: everything that, like the industry has told us and that

448
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:41,760
Speaker 1: consumers have told us about this.

449
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,760
Speaker 2: Yes, but I think one of the most fundamental aspects

450
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,879
Speaker 2: from early on in development was how you make VR

451
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 2: socially acceptable and how you take people in VR without

452
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 2: removing them from the real world. And there's a few

453
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,760
Speaker 2: tricks they have up their sleeve on that. One is

454
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 2: this external display that they've been working on from the

455
00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 2: very beginning for the headset, where it's essentially you can

456
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,879
Speaker 2: see you have this front ole a display and you

457
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 2: see the person's eyes who's wearing it, and so like

458
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 2: it's sort of like they're there or not there.

459
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this sounds insane, right, Like just hearing

460
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,159
Speaker 1: you describe that, you're saying that on the outside of

461
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,679
Speaker 1: these basically look like ski goggles, right right, this device

462
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 1: is something like that you're saying on the outside surface

463
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 1: of it, is it covering the whole surface of the

464
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 1: outside the screen.

465
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 2: Do you know the screen A portion of it, Yeah,

466
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 2: where your eyes would be, and you can you know

467
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,240
Speaker 2: you're moving your eyes and you can you know you're blinking.

468
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,960
Speaker 1: And so there's cameras inside of the there's some kind

469
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 1: of camera inside of the goggles that are tracking your

470
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 1: eye movements.

471
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:45,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, eye tracking, right.

472
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 1: And so then it's showing people on the outside. So

473
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,120
Speaker 1: do they think that you'd be walking around in public

474
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:51,120
Speaker 1: wearing this headset?

475
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,919
Speaker 2: There was a demo internally, and not only that, that

476
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:55,640
Speaker 2: you would wear it to a party, which I think

477
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 2: is ridiculous.

478
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 1: But I mean, this is the thing, Like, think about

479
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 1: a bunch of people at a party wearing the things

480
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,680
Speaker 1: on their face and try to imagine a desire there.

481
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 2: I would leave.

482
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,959
Speaker 1: Now, I'm kidding right now, you probably, I mean, if

483
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,640
Speaker 1: you didn't have one, you certainly would leave. Right, That's

484
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 1: the point, right.

485
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 2: I don't think they're gonna they're going to try to

486
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 2: make this socially acceptable. The other thing they've done from

487
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 2: a technology standpoint, it is a it's a VR headset,

488
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,440
Speaker 2: but they've shoehorned AR into there as a very core

489
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 2: component of it. Because you have these dozen external cameras

490
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 2: and you have the crown on the Apple Watch. You

491
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 2: have a bigger version of that on the headset, right.

492
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: So it's like that. And it's like the headphones. I

493
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 1: have the big yeah Apple they have that big crown

494
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 1: on them to adjust volume and stuff.

495
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,880
Speaker 2: Right, So it's like going between VR and AR mode, right,

496
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 2: and so you are seeing right.

497
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 1: Oh, you can dial it. You can dial it to

498
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: by degrees in and out. Oh is that the idea?

499
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 2: I don't know. I was described to me as on

500
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 2: or off.

501
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 1: Oh really, okay, because I was thinking like, actually, it's

502
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,400
Speaker 1: a cool idea. If you could go, like I want,

503
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: like sixty percent you know, virtual reality and forty percent

504
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 1: you know, real or whatever. I don't know.

505
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 2: Just that that I don't know that actually would make sense.

506
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,160
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a dial it's just my thought. Yeah,

507
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: well that too.

508
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 2: But also the idea of XR being a spectrum as

509
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 2: much VR as you want or as much AR as

510
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 2: you want, that would make a lot of sense to

511
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 2: me too. I think most people will probably use it

512
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,239
Speaker 2: in VR mode, but you have the AR mode there too, right.

513
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 2: I think that it's going to be a really interesting

514
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 2: differentiator from the competition, like I was using the Quest

515
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 2: three the other day. There's no dial to go in

516
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 2: and out of vr AR. It's like a sending.

517
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 1: I mean, on the Quest you can switch into a

518
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 1: mode where you're to a pass through mode right as

519
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:36,880
Speaker 1: flipping a dial on the top of the headset.

520
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 2: That's going to be something every headset maker is going

521
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 2: to take, you know, for sure.

522
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 1: And it would have to I mean presumably would have

523
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 1: to be able like if they imagine people at a

524
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: party with this, then the view it gives you has

525
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 1: to be as like close to one to one of

526
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 1: your vision as like you have when you're not wearing

527
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 1: the headset, right, because like otherwise you're going to be

528
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 1: bumping into shit and like you know, falling on things.

529
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 1: Because like you need to be able to see, like

530
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 1: imagine walking around and you don't have like perfect vision,

531
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 1: like you can't see the law or whatever.

532
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 2: Put it this way, I used the Quest three. This

533
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:07,679
Speaker 2: was a prototype. By the way, this thing's not being

534
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 2: announced for several months. I used the Quest three and

535
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 2: it was pretty on point in terms of what you're describing,

536
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 2: being able to walk and see what you're doing.

537
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: That has two cameras, okay, right, this has a dozen.

538
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 2: Roughly a dozen, so I would say anywhere between ten

539
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 2: to fourteen, right, And so you're talking about three to

540
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,640
Speaker 2: five x performance of something that, to me, someone who

541
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 2: uses this stuff was pretty damn good, right, and talking

542
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 2: about the metaproduct, and so this is going to be

543
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 2: this is going to be unbelievable. People who have demoed

544
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 2: this thing like is rocked off their socks. I mean,

545
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 2: they've been blown away.

546
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: See here's the thing. It's like, I believe that Apple

547
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: can execute on something like this better than anybody. Like

548
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 1: that's what I was saying earlier, like the thing that

549
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 1: just breaks my brain. I don't mean to keep coming

550
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: back to it, but it's just like I just like,

551
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 1: I'm like, even in the best executed sense, there's so

552
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: many things that are off putting about this. And again

553
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 1: I say this as a person who desires to be

554
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: able to have these experiences, like I think this is

555
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: a cool technology that we haven't yet seen the end of.

556
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: But I personally have gotten a little bit deflated in

557
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 1: terms of like what it can provide, not just because

558
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: the experience has been bad or not as good as

559
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: I would hope, but because societally, like culturally, I feel

560
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 1: like we are all feeling really burnt on being inside

561
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: the box, right, being inside this thing here that we're

562
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: talking on and looking at this thing all day long, right,

563
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: being immersed has become a thing that I think for

564
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 1: a lot of people. I mean, listen, you're much younger

565
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,120
Speaker 1: than me. I'm an old man now, I'll be dead

566
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: at any day now. But you know, like having lived

567
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 1: through the boom of this stuff of like the social

568
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: media era and the phone era, I'm like, yeah, like

569
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 1: I kind of want less of it. And Apple is saying, okay,

570
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: but what if you put your entire fucking face inside

571
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 1: of it all the time? Right? That's kind of like their

572
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: bat here, which seems weird to me.

573
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 2: It's scary, it's scary. I mean, they do make these

574
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 2: comments about like you said, they want you to lose it,

575
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 2: use your devices less. They don't want you using these things.

576
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 2: They don't want you to be addicted to them. But

577
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 2: if people weren't addicted to them and using them as

578
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 2: much as they did, they wouldn't be making they wouldn't

579
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 2: be a three trillion dollar company, right, So there is

580
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 2: some nuance there, right, They want to toe that line.

581
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 2: You know, what I heard from a few people is

582
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 2: that at the get go of this project, you know,

583
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 2: Apple had serious reservations and considerations internally about creating a

584
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 2: product that would run counter to this idea we're talking about.

585
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: Right.

586
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 2: They didn't want to create something that would keep people

587
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 2: out of the real world. And one idea that they

588
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 2: came up with internally was this argument that if we

589
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 2: don't do it and do it in a responsible way,

590
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,360
Speaker 2: this external display, the mixed reality focus, someone else will

591
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 2: do it poorly and you know, hurt society. Now, right,

592
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 2: that's that opinion. It's a preventative measure, right Yeah, No, yeah,

593
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 2: buy it at Walgreens. No, But that's one end of

594
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 2: the spectrum. The other idea here is if Apple doesn't

595
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 2: do this, Amazon, Meta, Google, someone else will come with

596
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 2: a VR headset and destroy Apple in that market. Like

597
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:14,400
Speaker 2: Apple was hurting smart speakers and voice assistants and such, right.

598
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: The speaker thing I was thinking of when you were

599
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: saying how they stick with stuff long term, Like.

600
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 2: They just continued that after a year.

601
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: Right. There are places where Apple tries to fight and

602
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 1: doesn't ever really gain a footholder. Just for for whatever reason,

603
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: they can't get the fit right, Like there's something about

604
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: the market doesn't want their version of it. It's too

605
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: you know, so it's like, well, I just.

606
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: They totally screwed up at the home pod at the

607
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 2: get go right. And if you think about you know,

608
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 2: it depends how you look at these things. If you

609
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 2: consider the home pod a major product category, that could

610
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 2: have been in the same vein as you know, the iPhone,

611
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 2: the iPod, right, the iPad, the mac right, I consider

612
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 2: it more in the accessories category, something akin to like

613
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 2: an Apple TV or air pods.

614
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: It's smaller, it's smaller.

615
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 2: They okay, that was a five six year development process.

616
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 2: Also because there were numerous times where they were thinking,

617
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 2: let's not do it, let's do it. They had many delays.

618
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 2: They screwed up twofold pricing, three point fifty out the door,

619
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 2: awful decision, right yep iPhone exclusive serie exclusive, no app integration,

620
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 2: no ecosystem. I mean that was just.

621
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: Are you describing describing the headset right now? Well, high

622
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: price point out.

623
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 2: Of the gates, high price point out of the gate.

624
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: It's definitely not going to work with anybody else's device, right,

625
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: You're not going to able to use an Android phone.

626
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 2: With this, it's not going to work with anyone else's device,

627
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 2: but it is going to run a million iPad apps

628
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 2: when you take it out of the box, and so

629
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 2: they are not going to have a content issue, and

630
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 2: from day one they're going to have the biggest XR

631
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 2: app ecosystem of any provider.

632
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 1: I got to tell you, I mean, I'm just I

633
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 1: was thinking through this. Like you mentioned that they were

634
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: talking about doing logic. It's a studio app. It is

635
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: something that people use in professional studios to produce music.

636
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: Probably most of the music you listen to, either pro

637
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 1: Tools or Logic is where they people produce it. So

638
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: you're saying they just brought it to the iPad. You're saying,

639
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: now they can take that and expand it to XR

640
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 1: and create. Presumably you're in the headset and you can

641
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: see your score. You can see what you're working on

642
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: from like the beginning of a ten minute song to

643
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: the end of it in one glance.

644
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 2: Right, all right, let me take a step back. First,

645
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 2: iPad launched Okay, two options for apps, full scale iPad apps,

646
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 2: iPhone app to x moon't run on the iPad, right,

647
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 2: and the iPhone only apps died pretty quickly because they

648
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 2: were crappy.

649
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: I don't like where this is going.

650
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 2: It was a thing, right, and so this is going

651
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 2: to be a much better version of that. It'll run

652
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 2: your iPad os apps out of the box.

653
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: But you're saying like it'll run up. You're saying it'll

654
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: run a window. It'll run a window, right, and then

655
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: that's interesting.

656
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 2: Right, But if the developer wants to create a native,

657
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 2: native XR version of that app, they can do that also.

658
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: Right, right, So it's like an operating system literally in

659
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,719
Speaker 1: the sense that I will be able to open and

660
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: look at like multiple iPad apps running as I would

661
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: see them, or some variation of how I would see

662
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: them on an iPad, like a in a windowed scenario essentially,

663
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: but then possibly like at a later day. Okay, so

664
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 1: so I can So that's really interesting. I mean again,

665
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 1: but here's the thing. What I was going to say

666
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: is last night I was in my living room. I

667
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: was messing around with logic. I had my headphones on

668
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 1: and I had noise cancelation on, right, so I couldn't

669
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: hear anything, that's just hearing. And my wife walked in

670
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: the living room and I literally jumped because I didn't

671
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: know she was there and I looked up and there

672
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: was like a person standing there, and I fucking jumped,

673
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 1: you know. And then I was like, Okay, well, I

674
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: can't sit in the room with her listening to my

675
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: like logic project I'm working on while she's like trying

676
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: to talk to me or we're like, you know, you know, going, hey,

677
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: we should watch a show or something. Like. You can't

678
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: be in a room with noise cancelation unless you expressly

679
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: want to shut the world out, right, Like, I'm sure

680
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: you've used noise cancelation on your on your AirPods and

681
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: you know what I'm talking about. This is like noise

682
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: cancelation for your fucking eyes, I assume additionally for your ears, right, Like,

683
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: so I'm trying to imagine that same scenario, right, but

684
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: like you're sitting in it. You're sitting in a room,

685
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 1: you're doing something, You're totally isolated from people in that room.

686
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: It's such a weird vulnerability that I just feel like,

687
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: I don't know, does Apple really think people want that?

688
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: Like do people want that? I guess I don't know.

689
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 2: I personally, you know, I'm a nerd like you I'll

690
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 2: be first in line, right, not freaking wait to try it.

691
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: We'll buy it. Don't get me wrong, I'm going to

692
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: buy it and use it because I'm a total like gonna,

693
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: I'm a total freak for this shit. But like, right,

694
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: but I have I have quests, and I have all

695
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: kinds of other stuff, and you know, like it comes

696
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: comes out occasionally, but it's just a very unusual experience.

697
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 2: That's exactly right. My question is is how long until

698
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 2: this thing is charging on a daily basis on my

699
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 2: desk rather than being used? How long until it turns

700
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 2: into uh, you know, something that just sits there and

701
00:32:58,040 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 2: gathers dust.

702
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 1: Here's an interesting anecdote and I think maybe speaks to

703
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 1: this question about immersion. Yeah, I started to use my

704
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: iPad more in the evenings when I wasn't working because

705
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: I wanted to have an experience that made me less

706
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: immersed in like the windowed noisiness of a laptop. Right,

707
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 1: Like on my laptop, I've got like Gmail open, I've

708
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: got Twitter open, I've got all this shit, and everything's

709
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 1: like pinging, there's all this noise, and on an iPad

710
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: it's like very singular. You're like when I'm working on

711
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: logic on the iPad. You know, I'm in like do

712
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 1: not Disturb, and it's like everything is gone. There's no

713
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: other windows, there's no little pop ups. It's like very

714
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: and you know, for even for browsing or watching shit

715
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 1: on YouTube. I do like I'll just go into that

716
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: kind of like singular sort of focused zone. It's like

717
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: a bigger workspace, but it's like less noisy and less

718
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 1: immersive than being in a computer in the sense you know,

719
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: it will take time. I agree with you, but.

720
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 2: I'm us it. By the way, I was a big

721
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 2: iPad user until the m one computer started coming out, Yeah,

722
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 2: because the Intel machines were so crappy and slow and fans.

723
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 2: I was like, I need to get anything horrible battery, Yeah,

724
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 2: I need to use the iPad.

725
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 1: Yeah.

726
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 2: But since I've had this m one Max MacBook Pro,

727
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 2: the iPad is not as useful because I actually can

728
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 2: get stuff done on this now.

729
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 1: So but I want to talk about that. Actually, like

730
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: this brings us to an interesting point about all of this,

731
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,399
Speaker 1: which is like we are very much in the Tim

732
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 1: Cook era here. I mean, there's no question that.

733
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:32,439
Speaker 2: We're deep in the Tim Cook era.

734
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 1: He's not gonna be CEO forever. Obviously he's not that old,

735
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: but you know there's going to be a CEO after

736
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 1: Tim Cook. This could be his big like moment, right.

737
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 1: The era of Tim Cook produced this product, But the

738
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 1: era of Tim Cook has produced a lot of middling

739
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: just okay, not that exciting me too, products that feel like,

740
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 1: you know, like like Apple music is It's fine. You know,

741
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: it didn't change the world. It didn't destroy Spot, it

742
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: didn't you know, it's didn't iTunes the situation, right, It

743
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 1: wasn't like one day we're all got our rios and

744
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 1: then the next day nobody is using anything but iTunes.

745
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 1: The lack of definition of this feels very of a

746
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: type of Tim Cook sort of product. Not to say

747
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: that that and you mentioned this in your article that

748
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 1: he's not a product guy. So can you talk a

749
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 1: little bit about how this is like a part of

750
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: his legacy if you know what type of legacy he

751
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: would have like in a post Tim Cook era.

752
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 2: Well, I really think they see this as the third

753
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 2: major new computing paradigm in Apple's history, right, the first

754
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 2: one being the Mac, the second one really being the iPhone,

755
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 2: with the Apple Watch of the iPad as an extension

756
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 2: of that. Like I would say, you know, the Mac

757
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 2: is one, the iPhone is two, and the iPad and

758
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 2: watch are two A and two B, right, And then

759
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 2: I really think this is number three, right. I think

760
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 2: they really believe that the future of computing could be

761
00:35:54,840 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 2: living in these mixed reality environments. Certainly more immersive, it's

762
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 2: certainly brings a lot of power with it. There's a

763
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 2: lot more flexibility in the types of apps you can use,

764
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,240
Speaker 2: there's a lot more ways that you can actually interact

765
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 2: with your content. But it is so early stage one.

766
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,280
Speaker 2: I mean it really I think could take ten years

767
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 2: to take off. And I think if they successfully create

768
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 2: this XR market, because let's be honest, it's really nascent,

769
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 2: it basically doesn't exist, and they take it into how

770
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 2: people use computers in the future instead of laptops and desktops, right,

771
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 2: or instead of iPads and phones, I think that's a

772
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 2: pretty cool legacy. Right. It's also an extremely big bet

773
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 2: because there is a very high chance that never happens

774
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 2: and it doesn't work out. On the other hand, Apple

775
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 2: has so much market cachet and has so much money

776
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,879
Speaker 2: and so many resources that I think that this thing.

777
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:50,720
Speaker 2: Becoming a massive, massive failure would not break the company.

778
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 2: But I think this being a big hit would do

779
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 2: wonders for the company.

780
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: Like you would change that the path of where they're

781
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 1: focused like pretty much for the future, right, it.

782
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 2: Would change a lot. It would change a lot. And

783
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 2: so I think that is one aspect of it. Another

784
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:09,879
Speaker 2: part of it that I don't think people are talking

785
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 2: about enough, and I tried to flick at this through

786
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 2: my articles in this conversation, is the app situation, right.

787
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 2: I think the idea is that the Apple user of

788
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,280
Speaker 2: Tim Cook's dream has all of these products, the phone,

789
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:25,399
Speaker 2: the watch, the iPad, the Mac, et cetera, right right

790
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 2: at the headset, and you have one app that can

791
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 2: run across the ecosystem. So whatever Apple device you're on,

792
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 2: you can run any app you have in a different form.

793
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 2: You can run logic on your Mac, you can run

794
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,760
Speaker 2: logic on your iPad, you can run logic on your headset,

795
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 2: you can I message from your watch, from your headset,

796
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 2: your phone, whatever, and it all just integrates together.

797
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: And that's their biggest that's their biggest asset when you

798
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 1: get down to it, Like obviously the hardware or the

799
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 1: software that the acumen, a building, and but like the

800
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 1: way all of these things work together is ultimately at

801
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: the core of Apples sort of mastery of this industry.

802
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 1: It's like, but it's a.

803
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 2: Double edged sword. It's a double edged sword because this

804
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 2: has been a Timcook thing. I mean, Steve Jobs are

805
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 2: sort of laying the groundwork for that with iCloud and

806
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 2: the initial post PC devices as they called it. But

807
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 2: that's really been a thing, this Timcook era has been pushing.

808
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 2: I don't mean to credit him specifically, but it has

809
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 2: been his company the last decade and change, so you know,

810
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 2: we'll credit leadership to that it has. It's a double

811
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 2: edged sword because it necessitates Apple doing everything because if

812
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:30,280
Speaker 2: they miss one potential major consumer technology category, you break

813
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,839
Speaker 2: the ecosystem. The example I like to give is, let's

814
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 2: say Amazon comes out with an amazing AR headset. Apple

815
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 2: doesn't have one. Right, everyone wants to buy this Amazon

816
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 2: ar headset. Then they get exposed to other Amazon products,

817
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 2: whether it's the Amazon tablets, the Amazon phone, if they

818
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 2: bring that back to the e buds.

819
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: Right, Right, it's all about ecosystem sort of dominates.

820
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 2: Right.

821
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 1: It's like, you don't just want one product, you want

822
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 1: to be inside of the entire thing.

823
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 2: So the reliance by Apple on this idea where you're

824
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,839
Speaker 2: owning the whole ecosystem, if they miss one element of it, right,

825
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 2: even though the HomePod was a complete failure, that's why

826
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,879
Speaker 2: they had to do a HomePod and try a HomePod right, right.

827
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 2: And so their bet is if the technology industry is

828
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 2: going to push into headsets, they have to have one too,

829
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 2: because if they miss on that, yeah, one crack in

830
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 2: the ecosystem could cost them big time across their other products.

831
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: But you see, you actually just raised an interesting point

832
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 1: that I meant to bring up earlier and I wanted

833
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 1: to talk about before we ended. This is what's so interesting,

834
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,479
Speaker 1: Like you're talking about the ecosystem, you're talking about Apple

835
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 1: missing things. And I think that like one of the

836
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 1: blind spots Apple has had in some ways historically has

837
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: been things like the Internet and search and these like

838
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: large sort of like online projects that like look at

839
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: maps for instance, right, Like they've they've been playing for

840
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 1: years playing catch up to Google in all of these

841
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,320
Speaker 1: areas of just like they're like, hey, we just didn't

842
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 1: see this, we didn't put any money into it. My

843
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:54,959
Speaker 1: understanding wasn't I feel like this has been said before.

844
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 1: Steve Jobs actually didn't like the Internet. He wasn't like

845
00:39:57,960 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 1: a fan of being online, and like so a lot

846
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 1: of us were kind of built with like not online

847
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: as a component. But I'm looking now at the landscape,

848
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 1: and I'm looking at what is the emergent moment that

849
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 1: is happening. And listen, we're not done with any of

850
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: this stuff yet. We're at the very early endings of

851
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 1: a lot of this technology that we're starting to see.

852
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: But if you look at what's happening with AI right now,

853
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 1: for instance, right in these large models, you know whether

854
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 1: it's mid journey or open AI. Obviously you see Microsoft,

855
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: you see Google now suddenly getting into this like huge

856
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 1: race for dominance in computing that goes beyond the known

857
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 1: space that I think we've been in right a type

858
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:40,280
Speaker 1: of computing that is about us interacting with the machine

859
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 1: in a way that is naturalistic and responsive, beyond anything

860
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 1: I think we could have imagined even ten years ago.

861
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 1: And by the way, Siri is a good example of

862
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 1: where Apple tried to get into this like assistant game.

863
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: They obviously have a huge foothold there, but everybody knows

864
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 1: that Siri is worse at everything than many of the

865
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: other assistants, notably Google's assistant right, And so to me,

866
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 1: like a bold, exciting Apple has got it figured out

867
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 1: for the future or has sees a pathway forward would

868
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: be something like Apple announces it has acquired open ai, right,

869
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: or Apple has built an AI that is far more

870
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 1: sophisticated but also focused on privacy and respecting copyright and

871
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 1: all this other stuff that people are worried about. And

872
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:26,720
Speaker 1: yet what I see is, this is what's so odd

873
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 1: to me about this this headset, is that it feels

874
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: like the industry and the Internet and its users are

875
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 1: going in one direction over here to a different new

876
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 1: thing that is it's not and I don't think it's

877
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: just hype. I think part of it is like there's

878
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 1: something underpinning that that's very real.

879
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 2: I agree.

880
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: Whereas Apple's over here going into this again almost this

881
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 1: like internal inside the box, not really about outside, not

882
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 1: really about the Internet, not in some ways even about

883
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:58,320
Speaker 1: being able to be social. And it just feels like

884
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 1: these two really divergent paths, and I I I just wonder,

885
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,839
Speaker 1: like does that fit anywhere into this, like the AI

886
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,720
Speaker 1: stuff that's happening and is there any from your sense

887
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 1: anywhere at Apple or that's starting to be like a

888
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 1: conversation because it feels like they're missing something right now right.

889
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 2: I've seen a few people point this out where the

890
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,839
Speaker 2: industry is heading into AI and Apple is a week

891
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 2: away from heading into XR. Right, two diverging paths, and

892
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 2: that's certainly true. The way I look at it sort

893
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 2: of off the cuff here because I haven't given it

894
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 2: much thought. The XR situation is a platform. AI is

895
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,919
Speaker 2: in my opinion, more feature than platform, and I think

896
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 2: AI is something that they play very heavily on XR,

897
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 2: So I don't think it's two different paths. I think

898
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 2: the two can go together. On the top of my head,

899
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,280
Speaker 2: I can't come up with the most interesting use cases

900
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 2: for AI in XR, but certainly Apple needs to get

901
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 2: the ball rolling. I think these chat bots that you see,

902
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 2: like the chat GPT stuff, Yeah, this is weird, but

903
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 2: I call it like raw AI. It's like a raw

904
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:04,359
Speaker 2: implementation of what artificial intelligence can do. And I think

905
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 2: what Apple does is they take these raw technologies and

906
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 2: they apply them.

907
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:09,839
Speaker 1: Right.

908
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 2: It's like if you look up the definition of technology

909
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 2: right in Mirriam Webster. I believe the definition is applied sciences, right.

910
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 2: I think chat GPT's science. I think technology is applied science.

911
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,800
Speaker 2: And I think the ultimate way of showing AI's power

912
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 2: is applying that. And so if Apple is able to

913
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:34,240
Speaker 2: take AI and apply it to real world use cases, right,

914
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 2: to make things easier, to make things better, I think

915
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 2: that's where AI can really shine. I think Microsoft, from

916
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 2: the little I've seen so far of what they've shown,

917
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 2: these things like Copilot, these things that can assist you

918
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 2: in day to day development of things, I think that's

919
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 2: where AI can really shine. So I think Microsoft is

920
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 2: doing a great job. THEAI stuff you're starting to see

921
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 2: in Google Search and bar and being and such. I

922
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 2: think that's happening there. I think we're a couple of

923
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 2: years away from Apple really showing some big news in AI.

924
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,919
Speaker 2: I'm not anticipating rights they had a five year lead,

925
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 2: another five years behind, right, and so.

926
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing is like they feels like they're

927
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 1: always playing ketchup in these areas that actually end up

928
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: to be huge, huge, like massively important moments in computing.

929
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 1: It's not to say, look, Apple's like the most valuable

930
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 1: company in the world, right, like you can't knock. You

931
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: can't be like, well they're bad at business or something.

932
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: That's not it.

933
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 2: They're doing something right.

934
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 1: They're doing something right, So like you have to be

935
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 1: inclined to go like, well, maybe they've got a good

936
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 1: idea with the headset, but yeah, it just feels like

937
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 1: it's interesting because because when I was reading your writing

938
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 1: on this, and there's so much of it that's so

939
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 1: good and I encourage everybody listen to go and read it,

940
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 1: but like it just feels like a weird almost an artifact.

941
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: And so I guess their challenge here will be can

942
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 1: they make something that feels like yesterday's sort of tech

943
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 1: or yesterday's future feel like tomorrow's You know.

944
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 2: I think yes, because that future never took off, right,

945
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 2: I mean I think they really believe that it never

946
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,439
Speaker 2: took off, And you know, based on the tech that's

947
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 2: going to be in there, I really think it's going

948
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 2: to blow the water off of anything. I mean, it's

949
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 2: it's extremely powerful, extremely advanced device. The bigger question to

950
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 2: me is do people really want that and are people

951
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 2: going to be sold on that? And I think that's

952
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 2: something that's going to take time. I certainly could be

953
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 2: sold on it. But you know I haven't used it, right,

954
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:18,839
Speaker 2: I haven't played with these things for an extended period

955
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 2: of time.

956
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 1: So you claim right, So I claim you claim. Mark.

957
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 2: We're actually talking to you from one right now and

958
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 2: it has this in feat right there.

959
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 1: That's that's fucking amazing.

960
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 2: I mean, how cool would it be if we were

961
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 2: doing this in virtual reality where it felt like we

962
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 2: were in the same living room together, right?

963
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 1: Well, would it be cool? That's a question. I think

964
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: that I have done that. I have done podcasts in

965
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 1: virtual reality and it was but this was like five, six,

966
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,800
Speaker 1: seven years ago. It was like shit, you know, yeah,

967
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 1: what would it be like? I guess we're going to

968
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 1: find out in a few days. Mark, listen, I know

969
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 1: you got to go. Thank you so much for doing this.

970
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

971
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 1: It's this a brilliant conversation, super interesting. You got to

972
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 1: come back. We're going to talk more about all of

973
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,799
Speaker 1: the unearthed secrets that you've that you've gotten into because

974
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 1: it's fascinating stuff.

975
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 2: Thank you. And if I can just give a shout

976
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 2: out anyone wants to read more, it's Bloomberg dot com

977
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,479
Speaker 2: slash power on or Twitter dot com slash Mark Erman

978
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 2: and thanks Josh. It was an honor to bear with

979
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 2: you and looking forward to next time.

980
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining. Well that is our show. I mean,

981
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 1: there are several hundred more hours of conversation I would

982
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: like to have with Mark, but we all have things

983
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 1: we've got to do. Anyhow, we will be back next

984
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:33,280
Speaker 1: week with more what future as you know, and as always,

985
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,800
Speaker 1: I wish you and your family the very best