1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: Hey, dear listener, it's Mariainojosa in your ear right now. 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: So you know that along with Latino USA and the 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: We Imagine Us Project, I also host another futuro podcast. 4 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: It's called In the Thick with my co host Julio 5 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: Ricardo Barela, and we talk about politics, race and culture 6 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 1: and break down the latest news that the mainstream media 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: is missing. Today, we're going to share a recent episode 8 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: of In the Thick on this feed, and we got 9 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: a chance to speak to Al Letson. He's the host 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 1: of Reveal and of the new podcast series Mississippi Goddamn 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: The Ballad of Billy Joe. We're going to get into 12 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: Al's journey of reporting on Billy Joe Johnson Junior, a 13 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: high school football star who is found dead in two 14 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: thousand and eight after being pulled over by a white 15 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: cop in Lousdale, Mississippi. Years later, Al returns to Mississippi 16 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: to investigate the death of Billy Joe and to help 17 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: his family find some closure. We also get into the 18 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: problematic history of investigations when it comes to suspicious deaths 19 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 1: of black people in Mississippi. Here's our colleague and fellow 20 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: journalist Al Letson, with the episode. 21 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 2: Hey Sam, Welcome to In the Thick. 22 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 1: This is a podcast about politics, race and culture from 23 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: a POC perspective. 24 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 2: I'm Maria no Josa and I'm and we have a. 25 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: Real special guest today joining us from Los Angeles, California 26 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: is Al Letson. He's host to Reveal and also a 27 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: new podcast series called Mississippi Goddamn The Ballad of Billy Joe. 28 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: It can be found in the Reveal podcast feed. Al, 29 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. It's great to have you on 30 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: in the Thick. 31 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 3: It is so good to be here. May you know, 32 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 3: I'm like one of your biggest fans. I'm actually the 33 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 3: vice president of the fan club. 34 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 4: You receive all the letters and right back to the fans. 35 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 5: Yeah. 36 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 3: If anybody ever is met at the letters, they get 37 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 3: returned to them, it's because I wrote them horrible. 38 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 2: The mady I know. It's a Los Angeles based fan club. 39 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 4: It's president so adorable. 40 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 3: Well, I'm the head of the Los Angeles Tapster, you know, 41 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 3: so I love it. 42 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 2: So Al's family. 43 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 1: We go back a long way, and that's why it's 44 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: so wonderful to have Al joining us to talk about 45 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 1: this really important project. 46 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 2: Also, Dear listener. 47 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: Remember we're all still recording at home, so dogs, cats, lawnmowers, 48 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: you know it can happen. 49 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, all right. 50 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: Al So, we love this story because it is a 51 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: story of not giving up. Because you first heard the 52 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: story about Billy Joe Johnson like ten years ago when 53 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: you were on a reporting trip to Lousdale, Mississippi to 54 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: report on the deep Water Horizon spill. So when you 55 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: were there, because you're a good reporter, people were telling you, look, 56 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: there's this other thing that happened that you should check into. 57 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: And you were like what, and they were like, well, 58 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: there was this death of a high school football star. Basically, 59 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,799 Speaker 1: you never gave up, and for ten years you were 60 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: thinking about this and now it's releasing. So congratulations. Before 61 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,119 Speaker 1: we do anything, though, I love to do something here 62 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: in the Thick because it's our show. We can do 63 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: what we want, and we love to do temperature checks, 64 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:09,959 Speaker 1: especially with journalists of color. 65 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 2: How are you doing? 66 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: And it's just like an emotional check in, like how's 67 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: your state of being? 68 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's complicated, Yeah, I would say I'm doing okay. 69 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 3: Where we are in the process right now is that 70 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 3: we're really close to the finish line. Yeah, gosh, I 71 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 3: think the very the first reporting trip that I did 72 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 3: for Reveal to Mississippi, I want to say, it was 73 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 3: in twenty eighteen. So I don't really have all that 74 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 3: many feels about the project right now because I don't 75 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 3: really have time to like, we have to finish, and 76 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 3: so for me, it's like I have to compartmentalize and 77 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 3: put that aside. That being said, I can feel under 78 00:03:53,760 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 3: my compartmentalization like an overflowing room of emotion. It comes 79 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 3: out every now and then when Billy Joe's family reaches 80 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 3: out to me and we talk about the episode that 81 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 3: came out, and so, yeah, right now, I'm good. But 82 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 3: I think that once this is all out and released 83 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 3: in the world, I'm going to have I'm definitely going 84 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 3: to take like a couple of weeks off just to process. 85 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, there you go. 86 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 1: We feel that it's important and we believe in taking 87 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:19,799 Speaker 1: some time. 88 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 2: Definitely. 89 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 4: Yeah. 90 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 5: So let's give some background on Billy Joe Johnson. He 91 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,679 Speaker 5: was a seventeen year old black high school junior, a son, 92 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 5: a brother, a friend, and an incredible football player. He 93 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 5: was described by his coaches and peers as one of 94 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 5: the best they had ever seen. With scholarship offers from 95 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 5: multiple colleges. But in December of two thousand and eight, 96 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 5: Billy Joe was found dead after being pulled over by 97 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 5: a white cop for. 98 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 4: Running a red light. 99 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 5: Initially, police said that Billy Joe died by suicide. The 100 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 5: grand jury report ruled it an accidental death. Billy Joe's 101 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 5: family never believed this, and they kept searching for answers. 102 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 5: And something that struck me is you talk about this 103 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 5: story being so personal for you because you grew up 104 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 5: in the South, in Jacksonville, Florida. So in chapter one 105 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 5: you talk about how this story brought back your own 106 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 5: experience of hostile encounters with police. 107 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 4: So let's take a listen. 108 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,359 Speaker 3: Standing in the sweltering heat of a Mississippi summer, I 109 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 3: felt the history of this country like the humidity in 110 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 3: the air. It was all around me, from the ghosts 111 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 3: of the enslaved black people who work the land, to 112 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 3: the shadows cast by the trees silent monuments, to the 113 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 3: victims of lynching to right now. See. I remember what 114 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 3: it felt like to be a black kid in a 115 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 3: little southern town where it seemed like no one cared 116 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 3: or could hear you. Where justice was a theory you 117 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 3: never saw in practice. So when they asked me to 118 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 3: look into this story, there was only one answer I 119 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 3: could give them. Yes, I made a promise, a promise 120 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 3: that I would look into the death of Billy Joe Johnson. 121 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 3: It took me ten years, but this is the story 122 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 3: of where that promise led me. 123 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 5: Wow, in reporting this story, how did your experiences shape 124 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 5: the way you told it? 125 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, it completely shaped the way I told it. You know, 126 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 3: I'm just gonna be like super real with you in 127 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:16,559 Speaker 3: a way that might get me in trouble. 128 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 2: It's the only way we do it. 129 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, you're with us, You're with family, exactly, exactly family, 130 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 3: You're good. And I know that you guys have experienced this. 131 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 3: But there are several podcasts that have come out in 132 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 3: the last you know, eight years or so. Yeah, and 133 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 3: one of those podcasts, and Yeah, I'll just be honest, 134 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 3: S Town came out, and as a black man who 135 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 3: grew up in the South, I loved the artistry of 136 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 3: S Town. I loved it. I thought that the writing 137 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 3: was just, oh god, it was so beautiful. 138 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 2: You know. 139 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 3: As an audio person, I thought the tape that they 140 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 3: got was great, But I felt betrayed at the end 141 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 3: of it because you find out that the lead character 142 00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 3: is racist. 143 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, one hund right. 144 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 3: So there's a lot of journalism that happens that doesn't 145 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 3: take our experiences and who we are into account exactly. 146 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 3: I thought that, like, if I ever got the chance 147 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 3: to do this story the way I wanted to do 148 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 3: this story, that I was bringing all my experience with 149 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 3: me and I wasn't apologizing for it, and I was 150 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 3: going to tell the audience straight up that this is 151 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 3: my experience and this is my point of view, not 152 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 3: that I'm not going to give everybody a fair shot. 153 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 3: Like I'm a journalist, I'm a professional. I can look 154 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 3: at a situation and definitely the lens that I use 155 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 3: is what I bring with me. Just like every journalist. 156 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 3: It's just a white man get the pass on it 157 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 3: because white men are the standard bearers, right, Like they 158 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 3: can bring their past and nobody says anything when they. 159 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: Get emotionally connected to a story. It's like, oh my god, bravo, you. 160 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 2: Have feelings, thank you, Oh my god. 161 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 3: Yes. 162 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: And when we are connected to a story in anyway close, 163 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: it's like, what's the matter with you? 164 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 2: Emotional? You know, unpredictable and biased journalist. 165 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, yep, exactly. And you know, I'm sure I'll be 166 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 3: called that, but I don't really care. 167 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 4: We reach a certain point in our lives and career exactly. 168 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 5: Where you do. 169 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 4: You're like, I don't care anymore. 170 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 3: Exactly. 171 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 4: Good for you. 172 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: Well, look, let's be straight up. We have proven ourselves. 173 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: We have won the awards that there are to win, yep. 174 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: And so to have to continue to say we are 175 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: fair journalists and so this and we are, you know, 176 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: it's ridiculous, absolutely when is what you were doing. What 177 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: we are doing is saying this country is complex. The 178 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: racial reality of this country is ridiculously not just complex, 179 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: it is based on structural white supremacy. 180 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 3: Yep. 181 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: Therefore, when we are taking on issues of a crime 182 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: like this, we're looking at it through not only that 183 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: structural lens, but the personal lens. That little bit that 184 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: we just heard of being a little black kid in 185 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: a small town just feeling like nobody even hears you. Yep, 186 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: I'm right there with you because of that line. Now 187 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 1: I want to listen to this piece. 188 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like we are the journalists that we are 189 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 3: because everything that we bring with us and I think 190 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 3: what we're taught like both in school, although Maria, I 191 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 3: know you don't teach that in your classes. What we're 192 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 3: taught in school and just getting into journalism is that 193 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:27,319 Speaker 3: you have to push that aside. And I think that 194 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 3: like engaging and it makes me a better journalist. It 195 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 3: helps me understand not just the Johnson family, but you know, 196 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 3: everybody that's kind of connected to this story. And again, 197 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 3: this is one of those uncomfortable truths. But to be 198 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 3: a successful person of color in America, i e. What 199 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 3: liked society deems as quote unquote success, you have to 200 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 3: be able to understand white people. You just do. You 201 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 3: have to be able to like read how the room 202 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 3: moves nicely. And so it's like, in a way, I 203 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 3: think journalists of color understand America in a way that 204 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 3: a lot of white journalists may not be able to 205 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 3: because they haven't had to have that experience. They don't 206 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 3: have to understand black people or Latinos or you know, immigrants. 207 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 3: They don't have to understand those groups, correct because those 208 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 3: groups are coming into their dominant culture. Whereas when you're 209 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 3: on the outside of it, you have to understand it. 210 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 3: And so for me, I think the experiences that I 211 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 3: brought to this story inform all of that, and I'll 212 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 3: just you know, spoiler warning here. You know, at the 213 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 3: end of the first episode, I tell everybody, this is 214 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 3: not true crime. I'm not doing true crime with this 215 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 3: story at all. Thank you, no true crime. But I 216 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 3: honestly don't know what happened to Billy Joe Johnson. I've 217 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 3: been looking at this for three years, like hardcore looking 218 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 3: at it, and in my opinion, because the investigation was 219 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 3: not done as thorough as it should have. They're just 220 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:58,839 Speaker 3: things that like I can't know, I don't have subpoena power, 221 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 3: I can't force people to talk to me. I can't 222 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 3: you know, there's a lot of things that like police 223 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 3: investigators a lot of tools that they have that I 224 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 3: don't have. And so in that I am definitely trying 225 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 3: to be fair to all parties that were involved in this, 226 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 3: but definitely the number one thing is that Billy Joe 227 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 3: Johnson's family and Billy Joe Johnson's experience is centered in 228 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 3: this work. 229 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: So actually, Al you really address all of that straight 230 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: up with the listener. We're going to play the end 231 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: of the first episode where you basically lay it out 232 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: on the podcast in terms of this is how you're 233 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:32,719 Speaker 1: going to tell it, Let's listen. 234 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 3: Before we start. You and I, dear listener, need to 235 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 3: have a covenant between us. There are a ton of 236 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 3: true crime podcasts out there. Some are really great, and 237 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 3: if that's what you're looking for, I encourage you to 238 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 3: find those because this is not that show. I'm not 239 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 3: asking the Johnson's or anybody else to relive the worst 240 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 3: thing that ever happened to them for your listening pleasure. 241 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 3: I am not interested in commodifying black death. I am 242 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 3: interested in looking at the system and understanding it so 243 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 3: that change may be implemented. I'm asking you to go 244 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 3: on that journey with us, but to always remember that 245 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 3: Billy Joe Johnson is not a character in a podcast 246 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 3: you love, but he was a human being whose life mattered, 247 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 3: and that's why we want to understand his death. 248 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 2: Oh I love that, Thank you so much. 249 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: These are the kinds of conversations that we have in 250 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: our own editorial meetings. 251 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 2: But you have just said, look, he's not a character. 252 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: He is a life. What's it like to listen to 253 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: yourself kind of leaning out that. 254 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 3: It's a little weird, but I love it. 255 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 2: It's very much dear listeners. 256 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, you saw at the House rules, which is important. 257 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 5: Yeah. 258 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 3: We had a lot of discussion on the team about 259 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 3: whether I wrote that, and you know, I fought to 260 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:58,319 Speaker 3: keep it in the mix. I think the worry from 261 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 3: withinside the editorial team on this is that, like, are 262 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 3: we telling people not to listen to our podcast and 263 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 3: we need people listening to our podcast. 264 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 2: Oh, I think the opposite. 265 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 4: It was the opposite for me. Yes. 266 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: I think what you're doing is we're going to move 267 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: the cheese. Are you coming? 268 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 3: Yeah exactly. 269 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and now we're even more interested, right, yeah, exactly. 270 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 3: And I feel like what I said to the team 271 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 3: is we're not discouraging people to listen. We're teaching people 272 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 3: how to listen. And that comes from a personal thing. 273 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 3: Like I remember season one of Cereal that I was 274 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,319 Speaker 3: listening to it like it was an episode of Law 275 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 3: and Order, like I was wrapped up in all of 276 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 3: these characters. And then at some point, I think halfway through, 277 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 3: I stopped listening because I realized that, you know, a 278 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 3: young girl died here, and I'm consuming her life like 279 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 3: she's a throwaway character on Law and Order, like she's 280 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 3: a New York actor extra who needed a couple of dollars, right, Like, yeah, 281 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 3: she's a person, and there's a family connected to that person, 282 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 3: and there's her connected to that person. And I stopped 283 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 3: listening because of me. And there's a lot to be 284 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 3: said about the reporting and all of that, Like we 285 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 3: can have that debate. But I would say that I 286 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 3: finished the serial because I was talking to a friend 287 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 3: of mine and he was like, yeah, but like, you 288 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 3: know what if this guy is innocent, and if he 289 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 3: is innocent, then this podcast is really necessary to like 290 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 3: bring the truth to the light. And I was like, yeah, 291 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 3: that is true. And so for me, it was really 292 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 3: about like, Okay, I don't want people to have that 293 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 3: same experience that I did, and so therefore, like let 294 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 3: me think about how I want to frame it. Yeah, 295 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 3: and then also, you know, like black and brown bodies 296 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 3: in America, like, let's just be honest. In the media, 297 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 3: we're disposable. 298 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 2: Well I think we're invisible, right. 299 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, Yeah, And I just wanted to say that, 300 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 3: like Billy Joe Johnson's not. 301 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, and before we continue out, I mean, I'm a 302 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 5: dad and my son is a jock and he's nineteen 303 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 5: and already you know, I think about how Billy Joe's 304 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 5: life was, the athlete, the guy that had the future, 305 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 5: that was real. Like, that's universal in a lot of ways, 306 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 5: and you can't forget that at all. 307 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 4: Kudos for you for making those choices. 308 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 2: Right, I mean, also great choices. 309 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: This is like a conversation for journalism students because it 310 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: is our mission and we love it, it is our passion. 311 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: But there is a craft here. You spent a lot 312 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: of time with the family, not recording like initial conversations 313 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: with certain people. For example, you did not record your 314 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: initial conversation with Billy Joe's sister. You made that decision 315 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: because it's like, Hi, I might here without a microphone, 316 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: and I will be here as many times as I 317 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: have to be here without a microphone until you say 318 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: it's okay to come with a microphone. That's a different 319 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: kind of journalism. What was your true north your north 320 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: star that kept you? I mean, hello, mister Frederick Douglass, 321 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: my founding father, of course, but bringing him here, what 322 00:15:57,840 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: was the guide for you? 323 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, like I should say that. Don't want 324 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 3: to ever forget my reporting partner, Jonathan Jones, because he 325 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 3: was with me every step of the way in doing this, 326 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 3: and as a white guy. Him and I have some 327 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 3: serious conversations about race as well, where we're both trying 328 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 3: to wrap our heads around things. The thing that JJ 329 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 3: and I thought about a lot when we were in 330 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 3: the field is that one the Johnson family, they don't 331 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 3: listen to podcasts and they don't listen to NPR. They 332 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 3: have no real understanding of what it is that we 333 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 3: were telling them we were going to do. I mean, 334 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 3: I think if we came and said we were with 335 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 3: a newspaper or with a television station, they know that media, 336 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 3: they use that media, but they don't do podcasts. They 337 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 3: didn't even know what NPR was, which I would say 338 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 3: is common in a lot of you know, black neighborhoods 339 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 3: in the South. 340 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 2: And it's not their fault absolutely. 341 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 3: I mean, like there's forms of media that like, I 342 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 3: don't I look at TikTok and I'm like, I don't understand. 343 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 4: I'm with you, I don't even begin to understand. I 344 00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 4: don't get it. 345 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 3: We got to talk offline because I'm just like I've 346 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 3: I feel old. 347 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 4: You have an ally in that don't worry You're not alone. 348 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, So for me it was like and for 349 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 3: JJ as well, we were just like, look, let's leave 350 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 3: the microphones. Yeah, as much as we can. Before we 351 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 3: got to a comfortable spot with them, we would just 352 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 3: tell them ahead of time, Hey, like we need to 353 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 3: get this on mic. But my first meeting with Tiffany, 354 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 3: we didn't have the mics. On the first time that 355 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 3: we sat down with the lead investigator. We met him 356 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 3: at a library. I cut the mic on to record 357 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,439 Speaker 3: us in the library walking into the library. You know, 358 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 3: you want that good ambi ye, But I did not 359 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 3: put the mic in his face, and I waited until 360 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 3: we sat down before I actually started like really like 361 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 3: diving in and recording. So to me, it was just like, 362 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,160 Speaker 3: people don't really understand what I'm doing here, and it's 363 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 3: on me to explain it in a way that feels 364 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,360 Speaker 3: good to them. And then, you know, after like our 365 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 3: first trip, you know, every trip afterwards, like the family 366 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 3: was just like, yeah, they don't even see the microphones anymore. 367 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 3: They just talk to us. 368 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 5: How would you describe Billy Joe as a young man? 369 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 5: What have you learned about him about his life that 370 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 5: we should all know so that he isn't a character 371 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 5: in a podcast. 372 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 4: He's a real person. 373 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that Billy Joe a like he loved football, 374 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 3: I mean loved football. His dad talks about like from 375 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 3: the time he was like three, he had a football 376 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 3: in his hand. You know. One story and his friends 377 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,919 Speaker 3: tell us they were all, you know, they're like sixteen 378 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 3: seventeen years old, and they got their older brother's license 379 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 3: so that they could all go drinking in Mobile, Alabama, 380 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 3: which you know is the big city for them. So 381 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 3: they all get their IDs, they go to a club. 382 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 3: They're all excited about, you know, like they're going to 383 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 3: drink at a club and they go to the bar 384 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 3: and Billy Joe orders a coke and everybody was like, 385 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 3: what are you doing And he's like, I don't drink, 386 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 3: you know, like it's not my thing. 387 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 5: You know. 388 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 3: He was really focused on like what his future was 389 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,479 Speaker 3: going to be. You know, it gets coaches say that, like, 390 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 3: you know, he could get mad really quickly. He would 391 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 3: get mad over like if the team wasn't playing well. 392 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 3: You know. He was like a lot of the high 393 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 3: level athletes that we you know, know of that they 394 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 3: expect perfection and they expect people to do their jobs. 395 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 3: And so when that didn't happen, yet he would have 396 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 3: an attitude. You know. One thing his parents talk about 397 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 3: is the fact that like this little town, him being 398 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 3: a football star. It's a Friday night lights situation, right Like, 399 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,439 Speaker 3: it's literally the only thing going on in town. So 400 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,360 Speaker 3: everybody's watching them, and little kids looked up to him, 401 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 3: and he would go hang out and talk to He 402 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 3: was like a little star in his community. So you know, 403 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 3: he would inspire kids to go out and do stuff. 404 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 3: But he was a regular kid. He had his ups 405 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 3: and downs. He was a great football player, he had dreams, 406 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 3: and you know, just the picture that his family makes 407 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 3: and his friends make of him is just like a 408 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 3: really sweet kid. 409 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 4: Wow. 410 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 2: Well, thank you for that. 411 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 4: Thank you for sharing that. 412 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 5: Obviously, Mississippi, we know the history of ridiculously botched investigations 413 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 5: when it comes to his suspicious deaths of black people, 414 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 5: especially black men. You say this is used to cover 415 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 5: up racial violence and perpetuate white supremacy. 416 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 4: And I just want to mention a clip from chapter two. 417 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 5: This comes up as Billy Joe's parents aren't even able 418 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,199 Speaker 5: to see the body at the crime scene. They have 419 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 5: to stand behind the police line while white police officers 420 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 5: and coaches can get closer. 421 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 4: Let's just take a listen to that moment. 422 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 3: Billy Joe's senior says, They're told, you don't. 423 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 4: Come no closer than that. 424 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 2: Retdale, I say, and he said, y'all beag on back, 425 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:32,959 Speaker 2: and we put the thing, and none of y'all been 426 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 2: that come past. 427 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 3: He says. The police officer looks him in the eyes 428 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 3: and says, if you cross that line, I'll shoot. He's 429 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 3: told they have it all under control. 430 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 2: Say, we got to have down control. We don't need 431 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 2: you over there. 432 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 4: What you got on you ain't got none of control. 433 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 3: One of Billy Joe's football coaches has already been asked 434 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 3: to identify the body while his parents are just a 435 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 3: few yards away. 436 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 4: Yeah wow, I mean, think about that. 437 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 5: Billy Joe's family doesn't get to see the body until 438 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 5: several days later after the autopsy, but Billy Joe's coach 439 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 5: identifies Billy Joe. I mean, and even during the grand 440 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 5: jury hearing. You also note that eighteen of the twenty 441 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 5: jurors are white, and only one of the first seventeen 442 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 5: witnesses scheduled to speak is black, and that person is 443 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 5: an agent Joel Wallace, who's with the Mississippi Bureau Investigation. Al. 444 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 1: I don't think you know this because you've been busy 445 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 1: producing this, but we dropped a second documentary about my 446 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 1: returning reporting to Mississippi. 447 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 2: And Mississippi Goddamn. 448 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: And we actually hear the song performed written by Nina Simone, 449 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 1: which is Mississippi Goddamn. And it's basically a song that 450 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 1: is just like Mississippi Goddamn. So we have been reporting 451 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 1: in Mississippi because there is a history here right Billy 452 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 1: Joe's death, the fight for justice highlights systemic failures throughout 453 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: the state of Mississippi. 454 00:21:59,400 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 2: Right now. 455 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: You know, undocumented immigrant people feel attacked not only by 456 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 1: immigration agents, but they too. There have been several unsolved 457 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 1: murders in these little tiny villages and towns, right and 458 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: then the police blame the community. It's their fault because 459 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: they can't solve the crime if the community doesn't come forward. 460 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 1: In your mission to help Billy Joe's family find the truth, 461 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: can you talk a little bit about some of the 462 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: things that you came up against and how you dealt 463 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 1: with that, specifically in the legal system, in the criminal 464 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: legal system, what were the challenges because it's i mean, 465 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: Mississippi is no longer a black and white dynamic only, 466 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 1: but it is still historically seeped in racism. 467 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. 468 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 2: Absolutely, What did that look like as a journalist. 469 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I was doing some reporting years ago 470 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 3: in Mississippi and Alabama, and the way migrants are treated 471 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 3: both through the law and through a lot of communities 472 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 3: down there is just I mean, I'm so glad you 473 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 3: guys are doing the stuff because it's it's upsetting, you know, 474 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 3: I think for us, like the number one legal challenge 475 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 3: is that Mississippi is a type of state that does 476 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 3: not have to give you anything. You can't get paperwork 477 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 3: on investigations. You can know if a cop was fired, 478 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,880 Speaker 3: but it's really hard to find out why they were fired. 479 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 3: Like there's all these laws that preserve secrecy and stop 480 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 3: you from looking in on what the process is. And 481 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 3: you know, therefore the system of checks and balances there 482 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 3: really isn't one. So that was a number one hurdle. 483 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 3: The one thing I'd love to point out though, is that, 484 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 3: you know, I think that it's really easy to look 485 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 3: at the Johnson family as they are poor, they are 486 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 3: black in the South, and they definitely are disenfranchised, but 487 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 3: that never stopped them from fighting, and so they raised 488 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 3: money and they got a lawyer who was able to 489 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 3: get the investigative file. I have no idea how this 490 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 3: lawyer got it, because, like I said, it's really hard 491 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 3: to get these type of things, but he did. The 492 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 3: family giving us the investigative file is really why we 493 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 3: were able to do this story. Normally you don't get 494 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 3: all the information that we got, and so having that 495 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 3: is a huge help. The issues that came up around it, though, 496 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 3: is that trying to talk to law enforcement. We actually 497 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 3: do talk to Joel Wallace, and we've talked to Joe 498 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 3: Wallace many, many, many hours. He's been really great with 499 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 3: his time, and he believed that he did a really 500 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 3: good job in this investigation. I think that now he 501 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 3: would tell you that he feels like there was information 502 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 3: that was being held from him that he didn't know, 503 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 3: and if he had known that, he would have done 504 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 3: something different. But Joel gets a lot of our hard questions, 505 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 3: a lot of them, and the reason why he gets 506 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 3: most of it is because nobody else in Mississippi would 507 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,919 Speaker 3: talk to us. The district's attorney at the time is 508 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 3: now a judge, and he will not talk to us. 509 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,880 Speaker 3: The other investigators in the case, they won't talk to us. 510 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 3: We've tried to talk to the current district attorney. They 511 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,679 Speaker 3: won't talk to us. And so it's just you know, 512 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 3: people stone walling us and not speaking on record. Then 513 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 3: when it comes to like interviewing, you know, interviewing black 514 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 3: folks that are connected with this case, was it was 515 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 3: just a matter of you know, finding them. Interviewing white 516 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 3: folks connected with this case is a whole different ball 517 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 3: of wax. They don't want to talk. And you know 518 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 3: what's hard about that is that there are people that 519 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 3: have made statements in this case that are in the 520 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 3: case file that you know, we have to report on 521 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 3: and there could be reasonable explanations for what they say 522 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 3: in thost case files. Yeah, but they won't talk to 523 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 3: us about it. So, you know, it's like, if you 524 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 3: don't talk to me and I just have a statement 525 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 3: that you made when you were seventeen, you know, I 526 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 3: have to put that statement out there because you made 527 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 3: it and it's in the case file. You know, it's 528 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 3: the truth of the case. But if you don't talk 529 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 3: to me, then I can't put context around it. I 530 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 3: don't know what was going on around that time. So 531 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 3: it's it's been difficult, but you know, I think the 532 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,439 Speaker 3: number one thing to say is that we got as 533 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 3: far as we did because the family, who I never 534 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,880 Speaker 3: want to play the family like they were these innocent 535 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 3: little victims who just like took what came to them. Now, 536 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 3: they were warriors for Billy Joe. They fought, yeah, and 537 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 3: because they fought, we were able to actually make this series. 538 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 5: Okay, so let's move on to our final segment, which 539 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 5: we call La ultima inosbamos or the last one before 540 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 5: you go. 541 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 1: All right, So summer twenty twenty, it is historic protests 542 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: after Derek Chauvin, former Minneapolis police officer, murders George Floyd 543 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: in full view. According to research from the US Crisis Monitor, 544 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 1: between May twenty sixth, the day after Floyd was killed, 545 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 1: and August twenty second, there were over seven hundred and 546 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,360 Speaker 1: fifty demonstrations for racial justice across the country in all 547 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: fifty states. 548 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:56,919 Speaker 2: Mississippi also saw protests. 549 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: In early June of twenty twenty, protest in Jackson, Mississippi, 550 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,959 Speaker 1: the capital, drew thousands of people across the country. We 551 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 1: were having conversations about abolishing the police, defunding the police. 552 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: So can you put the story that you've been working 553 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 1: on for finding justice for Billy. 554 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 2: Joe his family. How does that kind. 555 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: Of historic context impact your work on this project? 556 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it impacts it greatly. We open every 557 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 3: episode with a historical look back to an issue that 558 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 3: connects to what's happening in the series. And that was 559 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 3: really important to me because I think as journalists of color, 560 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 3: like we carry that history with us forward and everything 561 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 3: we do in some ways, especially here in America's trauma, 562 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,719 Speaker 3: that like, as journalists we carry with us, right, And 563 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 3: so for me and for people of color, when we 564 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 3: experience these big things happening on the news, they really 565 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 3: they stick with us and they echo in the reporting 566 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 3: that we do. And you know, you brought up George 567 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 3: Floyd and the Chauvin trial for me, like while we 568 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 3: were working on this episode, Oh god, I just felt 569 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,880 Speaker 3: it at my chest. While we were working on this series. 570 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 3: I had to stop for a couple of weeks when 571 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 3: George Floyd died. And then during the trial a year later, 572 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,959 Speaker 3: during the chauvn trial, another young man was killed by 573 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,399 Speaker 3: the police in Minneapolis around that time, and again, I 574 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 3: had to stop. And that young man who died looked 575 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 3: so much like my seventeen year old son. Wow, that 576 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 3: it broke me talking about it now, like it just 577 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 3: comes back fresh. It hurts, It takes my breath away. 578 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 3: And so all of that leads to what I am 579 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 3: trying to do with this series, to speak to that, 580 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 3: to say that, like you know, it's a continuum. Nobody 581 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 3: gets to leave the past behind them. It's just that 582 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 3: some people get to pretend that it doesn't affect them 583 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 3: the way it does. But it affects all of us. 584 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 3: And until we like wrap our heads around that, until 585 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 3: we wrap our heads around that, you cannot break time. 586 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 3: You cannot disconnect time. No matter how many legislatures across 587 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 3: the country you try to stop us from talking about 588 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 3: the history of America, it doesn't go away. It's still 589 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 3: there waiting for all of us. We all have to 590 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 3: deal with it every single day. And so for me, 591 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 3: like all of that, both memory and trauma but also joy, 592 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 3: you know, all of that comes into the reporting of 593 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 3: this story. And I hope that at the end of 594 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 3: it people will feel all of that weight that the 595 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 3: Johnson's had to feel. 596 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you, thank you for bringing up the issue 597 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: of joy too, because we do this work because we 598 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: find joy in telling the truth yep. Yeah, and bringing 599 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: all of this perspective and all of the feelings. So 600 00:29:58,640 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: thank you for being in your feelings. 601 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 5: Al. 602 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: This is a show, this is a company, This is 603 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: a place where we allow journalists to be their whole 604 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: selves on the air, off the air, as we report 605 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,239 Speaker 1: when we're not reporting, So we really appreciate it. Congratulations 606 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: on the release of their new series Mississippi Goddamn The 607 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: Ballad of Billy Joe, part of the Reveal Feed where 608 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 1: Al Letson is the host. So thank you again for 609 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 1: joining Juliu and me on this episode of In the Thick. 610 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you, thank you and quite happy to 611 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 3: be the vice president of the club. It makes me 612 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 3: very happy. 613 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know we should connect. 614 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 2: I think we got to go back to Mississippi together. 615 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 4: Yes, well, he is the vice president of your fan club, 616 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 4: So I am. 617 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 3: I am. 618 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: Thank you again, Al, Thank you, Al, congratulations, Thank you guys. 619 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 3: So good to talk to both of you. 620 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 2: I'm Mariajosa and I'm h dear listener. 621 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: Remember to go to Apple Podcasts to rate and review us, 622 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: and also remember You can listen to us on Pandora, Spotify, 623 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts on. Check us out on 624 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 1: the web at inthethik dot org, follow us on Twitter 625 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: and on Instagram at in the Think Show, Like us 626 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: on Facebook or I don't know, I Think they got 627 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: a new name, and tell. 628 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 2: Your friends and family to listen. In the Thing is. 629 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: Produced by Nursaudi Harshanahata and our New York Women's Foundation 630 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: Ignite fellow Lisa Salinaz, with editorial support from Mike Sargent 631 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: and Charlotte Manchin. Our audio engineering team is Stephanie LeBeau, 632 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: Julia Caruso, and Gabrielle Abias. Our digital editor is Restoona. 633 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: Thanks to Raunperez for recording me. The music you heard 634 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: is courtesy of Naciona kept NZCK Records. See you on 635 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: our next episode, Dear Listener, Issitos by p All. 636 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,959 Speaker 3: The opinions expressed by the guests and contributors in this 637 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 3: podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the 638 00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 3: views of Futuro Media or its employees.