1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:12,879 Speaker 1: Welcome to Trillions. I'm Joel Weber and I'm America Belts Eric. 2 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: I find you yet again on the road. Where is 3 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: it this? I'm in uh the D terminal of the 4 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: Miami Airport, waiting for my flight back from the big 5 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: e t F conference called Exchange. Um, and I am 6 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: I'm weary. I'm tired, I'll be honest, but I had 7 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: I had fun and I met a lot of people 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 1: and reconnected with a bunch of people. Um, but tip 9 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: as usual, I'm I'm exhausted on the way home. So 10 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: you went to Miami to talk about e t F 11 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 1: s instead of Bitcoin, I'm surprised. Yeah, well it's funny. 12 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: There was a Bitcoin conference the week before, so there 13 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,559 Speaker 1: were some people who were at both. The world's are 14 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: merging a little bit. But yeah, it was the e 15 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: t F conference. So you're in Miami. You did this 16 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: et F conference and this is gonna be another special 17 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: episode of Trillion. Yeah. So they had a special room 18 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: in the conference where they had six different podcasts to 19 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 1: a live episode. UM. Other ones that were in the 20 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: mix where Animal Spirits, UM, the med favorite Show and 21 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: Flirting with Models, So you know, good company. These are 22 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: popular podcasts with smart people. So I was happy to 23 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: be in the mixed trillions. You weren't there obviously, so 24 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: Katie Gray felt sort of filled in and you know, 25 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: played your part. She was great as usual. It was 26 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: great hanging out with her at the conference as well. 27 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: And then we got two guests. We got Jeremy Schwartz 28 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:34,919 Speaker 1: and Wisdom treat and Perth Toll from Life and Liberty 29 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: Indexes who was famously from the Freedom ETF which is 30 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: doing very well. And Jeremy has China in their funds 31 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: and Jeremy's Wisdom Tree ets also never got rid of Russia, 32 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: and so I thought, let's have a little friendly debate 33 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: about whether you should own China, Russia and some of 34 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: these other authority authoritarian countries. Perth, obviously we know where 35 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: she stands there, not in her fund and that's what 36 00:01:57,960 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: we did. We had a kind of friendly debate and 37 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: there was a point where they both started talking back 38 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: and forth for maybe a good like I don't know, 39 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: six minutes, which is what we wanted. Um. But we 40 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: brow some other stuff too, but mostly that was the discussion. 41 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 1: It's time on trillions, the big emerging markets debate. Welcome 42 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: to trillions. I'm Eric thought tunis. I'm Katie Kryfeld, filling 43 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 1: in for Joel Webber, who couldn't be with us. He's 44 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 1: stuck in New York City where the weather is not 45 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 1: as good. Um, but we miss him, and uh we will. 46 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: I think Joel and I might actually have done an 47 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: intro before you're hearing me here. So Katie, thank you 48 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: for filling in. Absolutely. I was honored when you asked. 49 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 1: Let me just say that, so thrilled to be here. 50 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: You're a regular on the show anyway, so yeah, you know, 51 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: but to put on my jewel Webber hats pretty huge. Um. Well, 52 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: how do you like the conference so far? What have 53 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: you learned? Nuts? I've actually I have shaken so many 54 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,239 Speaker 1: hands over the past I don't know six hours in 55 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: terms of what I've learned. I'm going to get back 56 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,519 Speaker 1: to you on that. Well, you've moderated like two panels, nothing, 57 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: nothing of interest. I'm worried about inflation. Okay, yeah, yeah, 58 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 1: do you hear Gunlock's presentation, I'm worried about everything. After 59 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: I realize, Um, so I spoke with Michael Sonenshein of 60 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: Gray Scale. I think our panel ended at nine or 61 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: maybe it ended at ten. I didn't realize that Gunlock 62 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 1: immediately followed us, like immediately like brush past him. So 63 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: that was pretty cool. Yeah, when this conference was in 64 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: Hollywood two and a half years ago, backstage, we ran 65 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: into Derek Jeter and took one of the most famous 66 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,559 Speaker 1: photos within our little et F community of Todd Rosenbluth. 67 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: Looks like he was pitching something to Derek Jeter. Who 68 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: was You got to see the photo. But anyway, Yeah, 69 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: sometimes you meet some people backstage. I actually met Sam 70 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: Hanky backstage. Do you know who that is? I should, 71 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: and I don't anybody know who Sam Hanky is. Yeah. 72 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: You ever heard the phrase trust the process? I certainly have. 73 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: It's all coming together. He put the Sixers together and 74 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: created that a concept of just sort of waiting picking 75 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: high draft picks. Anyway, it was great to meet him, 76 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: great to be here. Let's get on with the guests 77 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: that we have. Um, So, look, I was thinking about 78 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: who to get on this this program for this episode 79 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:20,799 Speaker 1: because it's live, there's I don't know about forty people 80 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 1: in the audience which will take questions from after we 81 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: get some questions to our panel of guests, not panelists, 82 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: and I thought the WENI people who are interesting, argumentative, 83 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: and good on stage, and that does narrow the list 84 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: down a little bit, because you could have somebody who 85 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: isn't any of those things and on a podcast, but 86 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: when you're on stage, you kind of have to bring 87 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: some firepower. So I have the two very good, perfect 88 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:46,919 Speaker 1: people for this Perth Toll of Life and Liberty Indexes. 89 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: Is that the official name of your company? Okay, I 90 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: got it all right. I always just say Perth Tolls 91 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: of Freedom f R D M is the e t 92 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: F that basically she runs. And Jeremy Schwartz of Wisdom 93 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:06,679 Speaker 1: Tree Welcome, guys, very argumentative. What's expected of us? So, Katie, um, 94 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: we haven't even prepped for this, so you just jump 95 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 1: in when you feel the urge. I'll start with a question. 96 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: I'm gonna start with just a broad question. I think 97 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 1: this year really reminded us of why they're called the 98 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: emerging markets. Right. They seem pretty mellow for a while 99 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: and they just went crazy. Let me ask both of 100 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: you guys this, why even invest in the emerging markets 101 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: at all? I mean, you guys have different takes on them, 102 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: but why even allocate to E M? Well, it's it's interesting. 103 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: I think certainly the inflation is your main narrative, Katie, 104 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 1: to your point that that's the big concern. And so 105 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: you see growth stocks selling off everywhere. That's particularly true 106 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: in e M uh now China growth in particulars where 107 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: a lot of the hits came. But I think people 108 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: view EM for the growth. Like so one of the 109 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 1: reasons why e M should be favored is it comes 110 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: back to valuations and fundamental growth. And so SMP at 111 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: twenty times earnings is more expensive market. Broad emerging markets 112 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 1: are cheaper called small twelve times earnings maybe for a 113 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 1: broad e M index, and they've got populations that are 114 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,679 Speaker 1: growing faster theoretically earnings and sales that are growing faster. 115 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: It's that combination of valuations and growth that's interesting. And 116 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: you could see different ways of looking at you and 117 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: have very different performances here. So we can get into 118 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: all that. But value is working very very well in 119 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 1: e M versus growth is what I would say, even 120 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: like when it came in with heavy Russia. It's working 121 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: very very well, and so we can we can get 122 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: into all those things. Yeah, I would add there that 123 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:38,239 Speaker 1: in emerging markets right now especially UM in a crisis situation, 124 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 1: you want to look at what are the safe havens 125 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: right in this type of market? And um, you know, 126 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 1: in the emerging markets, we're looking for markets that are 127 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: coming from a very low low base, that have a 128 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: high growth potential. And you know, we specifically want countries 129 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: that have the you know, stronger institutions, rule of law, 130 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 1: individual investor protections, and those I think are going to 131 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: be the safe havens in them going forward. And actually 132 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: I've in one of the panels I did this morning, 133 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: we were talking with Michael Roni of Spider and he 134 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: brought up small cap e M as a place that 135 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: he really likes right now. And I don't often think 136 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: about small cap YEM. I have to say that, but 137 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: I mean, so an obvious question to follow up with 138 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: to you, Jeremy is e M. We talked about it 139 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: as a block U as basically this one singular trade. 140 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: But within e M, what regions are you bullish on 141 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: right now and where are you potentially avoiding? Well? So 142 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: DGS is a small cap e M E T f 143 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: R S fifteen year history. It has a dividend orientation 144 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: to it, so it's very value based. So talk about 145 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: value around the world. The pe on this basket is 146 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: below nine times earnings, right, so this is single digit multiples. 147 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: It's got average dividents of five broad EM is down 148 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: nine this year or yeah, around nine percent, it's it's up, 149 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: so it's sort of that's my point on value is 150 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: working when growth is not. So that that is a 151 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: eat example. It doesn't all have to be China tech. 152 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: I mean, China tack is its own story that we 153 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: can get into. But the small cap em it's a 154 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: two billion dollar fund. It's one of our top inflows 155 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: this year. You're seeing a lot of people embrace that. 156 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: And I think it's one of the few places where 157 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: a non cap weighted e t F is the largest 158 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: et F in the world. Actually, I think I don't 159 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: think there's a bigger non cap weighted ETF in t gs, 160 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: so I think that's an interesting one. Also. Yeah, and um, 161 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: since you brought up China, I think let's just go 162 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: right there. I think that's one of the most interesting 163 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: things to talk about. We'll get to Russia too, But 164 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: um per um. You know, I think you really showed 165 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: people with your fund um you know why. You know, 166 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: governments are different in the emerging markets, and there's definitely 167 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: been a mental shift. I feel obviously your fund is 168 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: beating the e M by a lot because of some 169 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: of this UM. But there's also when you you e 170 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: t f s catch fire, they also need a narrative 171 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: and psychological shift, and I feel like it's happening. UM. 172 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,079 Speaker 1: I'll let jeremy owner, but explain why you don't want 173 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: China in your portfolio. Yeah. So we think on the 174 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: country level, that governance factor, which we measure using personal 175 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: and economic freedom variables that are from third party think 176 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: tanks UM is the basis for all other kind of 177 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: other kind of factors that you can put onto emerging 178 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: markets or any other strategy. So in developed markets, you know, 179 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: these these freedom metrics are all pretty high. Most developed 180 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 1: markets are pretty free, the governance is pretty strong UM, 181 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:31,199 Speaker 1: and you don't really need to worry about that. But 182 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: in emerging markets, the universe is so rife with autocracies. 183 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: It is so there's so many, you know, countries like Russia, China, 184 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,839 Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt, um A, u A, so forth. 185 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,319 Speaker 1: So there are a lot of these autocracies. And when 186 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: you market cap weight without regard to country level governance 187 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 1: you are looking at and autocracies and your broad emerging 188 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: markets allocation and that's just a lot of risk and 189 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: China I think is the biggest risk in that allocation. 190 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 1: It's currently about and you're broad emerging markets in disease. 191 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: But I mean at its height it was about in August. 192 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 1: That's come down since them because of market movement. So 193 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: um going forward, you know, China has in its governance 194 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: and policies reversed all of the policies that have made 195 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: them prosperous and they are going full speed ahead on 196 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 1: that reversal. So we think that's going to be a 197 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: huge drag on emerging markets going forward. It's interesting. I mean, 198 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,839 Speaker 1: so it comes back to these big decisions and benchmarks. 199 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: So M s c I, to your point, is now 200 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: thirty percent China, and which is so if you're going 201 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: to go to zero China and listen, there's now a 202 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: whole category of e M X China al right, so 203 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: you're seeing flows go to beta solutions. We have a 204 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,439 Speaker 1: filing for an e M X China without state owned companies, 205 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: which is something Perthonite agree on. It will be agreeable 206 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: on the x state owned factor. As a concept. Um. 207 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: But the China bet to, I think it is a 208 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 1: big leap to go all the way to zero UM. 209 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: I mean, they're certainly a lot of talk about being uninvestable. Right, 210 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 1: So for a while energy was uninvestable as a sector. 211 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,559 Speaker 1: When oil went negative, you're hearing, well, you know, it's 212 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: it's uninvestable, and that's exactly when you wanted to be investing. 213 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: I feel like some of that narrative is happening around 214 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: China now that everybody's saying it's it's quote unquote uninvestable. 215 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: Yet the companies are growing like four times. If you 216 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: look at some of the China tech companies are growing 217 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: four times the SMP at multiples that are less than 218 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: the SMP. So it's it becomes that becomes the inherent 219 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 1: thing is is they are they actually trying to make 220 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: these companies completely unprofitable. There they are putting their hands 221 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: on these companies, there's no question about it. UM. But 222 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: often when you hear it's completely on investable, that's when 223 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: you time to go Okay, So you're looking at this 224 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: value play, right, it's a well the growth characteristics combined 225 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: with their valuations make it an interesting combination all right, 226 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: So I'm gonna I'm gonna counter that if you look 227 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,599 Speaker 1: at the freer markets, you can do value place in 228 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: the free markets where you have investor protections, where you 229 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: have rule of law. But in a market like China, 230 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: if you look at the mc h I INDE, that's 231 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,319 Speaker 1: the ms c I China on shore and offshore, very 232 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: complete picture of China investing um since inception in the 233 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: cumulative return is now approaching zero percent. So that's a 234 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: time of extreme growth in China from now. That was 235 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 1: a time when it really opened up from the policies 236 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: of bysmal policies under MAO where tens of millions of 237 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: people died and famine. Um. I've seen someone that is 238 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: at this conference. Another firm used the term Great Lead 239 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: Forward for marketing purposes. The Great Lead Forward killed tens 240 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 1: of millions of people. So no, please don't use that 241 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: for marketing. First of all, and second of all, Um, 242 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: those policies were reversed to you know, not so bad policies, 243 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: and that is what caused this great growth in China 244 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: the last thirty and forty years. That was an increase 245 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,199 Speaker 1: in economic freedom. And now they are reversing all of 246 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 1: those policies. If you got zero per cent during a 247 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 1: period of extreme growth, good luck going forward. So back 248 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: in the nineties, like of it was all state owned companies. 249 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 1: Now you could say all of China. There's definitely a 250 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: bit narrative that all of China is a state owned company. 251 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 1: So you could say, can is there anything a private company? Right? 252 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 1: So there are people we have that discussion with all 253 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: the time. We have c X as c R China 254 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,559 Speaker 1: state owned, and I get that view, Like I'm not 255 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 1: gonna completely argue with that view, um, but they are 256 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: position as private companies and they do have fact like 257 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: if you just look at the fundamentals of the companies, 258 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: they are growing sales a year for the last three years, um. 259 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: And so there becomes a valuation number where if they 260 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: don't make these a zero that they are at trapped. 261 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 1: You know, they could be good good investments. Is the 262 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: point I would come back with. I do agree with 263 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: the non state owned aspect of what he's saying here 264 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: for freer markets now in markets like China, yes, I 265 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: do agree that most companies are all companies actually are 266 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: state owned. In fact, there's a law an article actually 267 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 1: says all company information is considered a state secret and 268 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: we can't share. And that's what the audit problem that 269 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: we're having now with the p C O B. But 270 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: in a place like China where they can come in 271 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: overnight and just say okay, you guys are nonprofits now, 272 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: like they did with the education companies last year, there's 273 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: no way an investor could recover from that. And it's 274 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: very similar to what we see in Russia. In fact, 275 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: with the freedom metrics that we use from the Cat 276 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: Institute and the Fraser Institute, a a combination of seventy 277 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: nine variables encompassing personal and economic freedoms, China ranks worse 278 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: than Russia. So this is great. I have to say, 279 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: like I'm already really loving this, and I've asked one question, 280 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: but Jeremy, listening to you, describe sort of the valuation 281 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: opportunity that you see here in Perth. Hearing your counter that, Okay, 282 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: China isn't a free society. You don't know what's going 283 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: to happen to you know, your investments, things can change overnight. 284 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: I'm curious do you at all consider, you know, f 285 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: R D M a E s G fund from that standpoint? Yeah, 286 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: So we have two type to investors, and some people 287 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: are both like myself on both. Um we have one 288 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: that is wanting to align their values for freedom and 289 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: human rights UM in emerging markets and and that's one 290 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: type investor. And we have one type investor that believes 291 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: that freer markets will outperform. And we have seen twenty 292 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: outperformance over e M since inception. Um so, so that 293 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: is another type of invest Now, we don't always promise 294 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: that kind of out performance, just very stark right now 295 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: because of what has happened in the market. UM So, 296 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: don't expect that going forward, I would say, but I 297 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: do expect freer countries to outperform because they have more 298 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: sustainable growth, they recover faster from draw downs, and they 299 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: have better allocation of personal and economic capital, so they 300 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: use their capital more efficiently and have less capital flight 301 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: and capital destruction. UM So, yeah, I do consider it 302 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: kind of an E s G product. We don't sell 303 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: ourselves that way because we don't use company level s 304 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: G metrics. But what we found is that on the 305 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: country level, UM, when that G is in place, that 306 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: the S and the E on both the country level 307 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: and the security level level tends to take care of 308 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: itself and we have an A rating from MSCI on 309 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: y s G actually far fund. Okay, let's move to Russia. Um. 310 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: And by the way, I like just go into debate 311 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: mode that I like that. I would just stand back 312 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: like an old school presidential debate. You guys, just go 313 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: at it. Um, let's talk about Russia. I mean, obviously 314 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: everybody's seen what's happened. Russia has gotten dropped from all 315 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 1: the major indexes, and it's basically those stocks are worth 316 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: nothing basically. Um. But you know, Jeremy, talk about what 317 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: happens if I don't know, there's a resolution, how's all 318 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: this come back to normal? So they've been dropped from 319 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 1: the major indexes besides for Wisdom Trees, UM. So we 320 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: have not So you haven't dropped them. We have not 321 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: dropped them from the indexes, um, partly because you're I 322 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: think the question some people ask is are they now 323 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: in the funds? They're being marked zero? Okay, you can't 324 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: trade these stocks, So even the removal is symbolic. Okay. 325 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: So it's it's like a statement that we are against 326 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: Russia and we're not. We're not pro Russia at Wisdom Trede. 327 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: That's not what I'm saying at all, but I saying 328 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: these securities may not be valued at zero. And as CEO, 329 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: I'm responsible for assuring we get the best value for 330 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: our funds. And if they're not necessarily valued at zero, 331 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: should you make that symbolic statement today? And so this 332 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: comes back to this E S G question. There's no 333 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: question about it. Um. But so today they're still in 334 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 1: the indexes we'll have to We don't have a rebound, 335 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: so there's nothing to do today. Our next rebound is 336 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: in November, which is where I'll get even more interesting, um, 337 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: if nothing is resolved or they're not worth more than zero. 338 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:31,479 Speaker 1: But we haven't made that statement. But we also think 339 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: about like what are the other Are there other countries 340 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: like a China that becomes an issue and and and 341 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: at thirty of the market, it's so much you'd say 342 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 1: it's a bigger issue. Um. What's interesting is our fund 343 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 1: that had the most Russia coming into this year was 344 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: d E M High dividend Value. The PS and these 345 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: baskets are six times earnings. It's up to on the 346 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: year when the markets down ten, the S ANDPS down seven. 347 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: So despite being overweight Russia that's now being valued at zero, 348 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: it's still up to which is just telling you how 349 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: strong the value rotation has been UM. But also those 350 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: things may not be worth zero. So that's one of 351 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,360 Speaker 1: the reason why we haven't the reason why we haven't 352 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: kicked it out. Yeah, it's interesting RSX stopped trading van 353 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: Neck with the exchange said you can't trade it. I'm 354 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 1: have a feeling Vane would would actually prefer to trade. 355 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: I know if I owned RSX UM, I would rather 356 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 1: just hang in there and wait then have it just 357 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: liquidated it like a dollar or zero um per. Obviously 358 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: this to pivot to you on this UM you know 359 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: we're you know Russia has it ever been in your fund? 360 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 1: We have never owned Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Turkey, 361 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: or any of the other autocracies. And that's just a 362 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: natural result of the freedom waiting. So our job is 363 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: to find the best opportunities in emerging markets for our investors, 364 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: and we believe those opportunities exist in the freer markets. 365 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: If you have a company that's trying to do good, 366 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: for example, in a freer market versus an un free market. 367 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: In a freer market, they're going to be rewarded and 368 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: incentivized to provide the best value for their clients. That 369 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: is how they compete by making other people's lives better. 370 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: In another free market, you're going to be rewarded by 371 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: gaining the favor of the government. Your entire job is 372 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: to curry favor with the government. And that is why 373 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: a lot of Wall Street firms want to be there 374 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 1: right now, because if they get the favor of the government, 375 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: that's a monopoly, and the government's going to keep all 376 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: your competitors out, even if they offer a better value. 377 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: So we're here to provide investors with access to markets 378 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: that have the conditions in place to support and encourage 379 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 1: companies that are willing to put their own, their stakeholders, 380 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: and their customers interests first ahead of those of the state. 381 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: And so we think those are the better opportunities. So 382 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,919 Speaker 1: we don't want to be in countries like Russia, where 383 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: the state's interests always come first. Can I do a 384 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: bad host thing and go back to China? Okay, so, jeremy, 385 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: I am curious. I mean it feels like every few 386 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 1: months we get worried about potential delisting of Chinese companies 387 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: of the A D r S. I would just love 388 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: to know how you approach that at Wisdom Trade, because 389 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 1: it feels like, again we're in one of those modes 390 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: where that's a concern for sure. Um. So I say 391 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: a few things. One is we have a woman, Leechen Rent, 392 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: who we had hired away from Vanguard, and she I 393 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: think produces I think some of the best commentary on 394 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 1: what's happening in China. So I encourage everybody to follow 395 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: Lee chen Um in that regard. She's been on top 396 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 1: of a lot of what she sees as the narrative 397 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: versus the reality on the ground. One of the things 398 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 1: we did in our indexes we did add more A shares, 399 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: so we now have about a third A shares in 400 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 1: our indexes. So we had were migrating away from the 401 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: US listings where we could. We had been early on 402 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: going from Ali Baba US to Ali Baba Hong Kong, 403 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 1: so we've been moving towards all of those places. It's 404 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 1: one of those questions, should you have the US listings. 405 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: Recently there were some headlines saying that they were resolving 406 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: the tensions in the Chinese stocks. Flew Um, I'm not 407 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: sure they're completely resolving the tensions, UM, and so I 408 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: think there's more of the to play out. So we'll 409 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: we're gonna continue to migrate towards the Hong Kong away 410 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,400 Speaker 1: from the US. There will be sensitive information they don't 411 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: want in the US listings. UM. So that that's gonna 412 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: be one of those When did you start that process, 413 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: that migration. It's interesting we were ahead of M S 414 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,360 Speaker 1: C I and having Ali Baba, and then we were 415 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: ahead and moving. I think over we're trying to stay 416 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: a little bit ahead on that, but we at each rebalance. 417 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: We've been taking those type of steps in the last 418 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: two years. Okay, so look, we just went over the 419 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 1: two big problem children and E M. And I think 420 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: you've heard, you know from both sides. I want to 421 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: actually talk about some things you guys have in common 422 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 1: and so per, let's let's look at F R D M. 423 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 1: Here's an E T F that had forty four million 424 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: dollars a year ago. It just hit two hundred millions. 425 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: So congratulations, UM the first I think the first hundred 426 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 1: million is the hardest. I'm sure you can detest that. UM. 427 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,479 Speaker 1: And I guess I just want to talk about, like 428 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 1: what you're experiencing as somebody who because I think a 429 00:21:57,920 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 1: lot of people have ideas for a t F S. 430 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 1: So you're one person with one idea and one E 431 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 1: t F. How are you getting the word out? And 432 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:06,400 Speaker 1: how much is it fish jumping in the boat now 433 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 1: versus you having to hustle down every dollar? So this morning, 434 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: I've learned that I have a reputation for pushing product hard. 435 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: So I don't know if that's part of it. What 436 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,640 Speaker 1: else are you supposed to do? Yeah, so I am 437 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: the only one, UM pushing the product hard. But you 438 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: know what, the whole time, I've never been alone UM 439 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:23,640 Speaker 1: here at this conference. I mean this is the biggest 440 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 1: one of the biggest et F conferences, maybe to replace 441 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: the other one. UM. You know, it's all everybody that 442 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 1: I've seen since I've been here has been a part 443 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: of our success. And you guys everybody else that has, 444 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 1: you know, given us their platform to to tell the story. 445 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 1: And I think that the E t F industry is 446 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: just very welcoming to new stories like this, UM, and 447 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 1: I'm very grateful for that. So, UM, I do kind 448 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: of want to address what to be a bad guest 449 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: what Jeremy said on his last answer about China, though, 450 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: if I could like revert back, I like it. I 451 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 1: like it. Go ahead. Humanative, that's what we are, that's 452 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 1: here so uh so, so you know, talking about the 453 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: China narratives versus actual policy action. UM. You know, right 454 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: now we're seeing a shut down in Shanghai. Um, it's 455 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,880 Speaker 1: a very tragic situation, and there's more COVID cases than 456 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: in there were in Wuhan, and we're seeing zero deaths. 457 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 1: Now that's just not that believable to me. So if 458 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 1: you don't even have correct data, I don't know how 459 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: many PhDs you know you you can use to justify um, 460 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: any of the data that that we use for investing 461 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: or impact purposes coming out of China. I mean, they're 462 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,919 Speaker 1: saying that the stocks jumped the day that the government 463 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: said that they would support or um support the the 464 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: you know, listing rules in the US. But PRC National 465 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: Intelligence Law Article seven, which was in acted in two 466 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 1: thousand seventeen, what das seeing BALFA is the Chinese name 467 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: for that. I mean that that it says all of 468 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 1: the company's information are state secrets, and so I just 469 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,120 Speaker 1: don't see how they could comply with Chinese law. And 470 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: also comp I with American law when they are saying 471 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: these these things to try to boost at the stock 472 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 1: market at a time when the capital is fleeing China 473 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: for this reason. Well, we agree that the listing standards 474 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 1: wasn't as rosy as what what they what the headlines 475 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,199 Speaker 1: were reading. We were telling people that don't go that 476 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: far as what they're saying. Um, Lee Chen is saying 477 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: now that the Shankhai situation is actually getting better than 478 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: what's being popularly reported. So she's she's on the Shankhai 479 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: is gonna get unlocked down soon in the next few days, 480 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: like I don't know the exact time, like, but she's 481 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: she's saying that when starting to turn the corner. Um, 482 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 1: I'm gonna be a good host and bring us out 483 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 1: of the depths of the details of China which are 484 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,400 Speaker 1: fascinating and we see the images and it's it's wild again. 485 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: Like I said, I think people's psyches have changed a 486 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: little in this topic for sure. Um. But I want 487 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: to go back as to you guys issuers, because a 488 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: lot of issuers in the room here and at the conference, 489 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: and and I think at home people are sort of 490 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: are you curious about what it's like to have a 491 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: hit product. And Jeremy, Um, I remember four or five, 492 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: well maybe some times flying maybe six seven years ago, 493 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,920 Speaker 1: you were like the bell of the ball here because 494 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: d x J was like on fire. That's the Japan 495 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: hedge DTF. It was like one of those perfect moments 496 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: where it like fit the narrative, the returns were awesome, 497 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: and it I think it was the biggest inflow et 498 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: F one year, beating i VV all the vanguards. I mean, 499 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: that's that never happens, right. Obviously h E d J 500 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 1: was another one. That's the Europe hedge. So this currency 501 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: hedge fad was like the hula hoop for a while. 502 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 1: I mean everybody was in it. I remember being at 503 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: a conference in Texas and this guy's like, yeah, the 504 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: boss slacks the d x J, and I was like, man, 505 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: this thing is sweeping the country. Um now those two 506 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 1: aren't even in your top ten by assets now. Obviously 507 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: it was this huge ride up and down. Talk about 508 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: that experience and you know what what you're trying to 509 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 1: do to get things back on track with those former 510 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,199 Speaker 1: rock stars. That's interesting today as a firm, we have 511 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 1: about eighty billion globally we're the most diversified we've ever been. 512 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: We had, you know, acquired a firm in Europe which 513 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: is very commodities heavy. So like today are a u 514 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 1: M is up on the year. When how many asset 515 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,239 Speaker 1: managers with a large scale presence can say that when 516 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,160 Speaker 1: the marks are down ten percent, bonds are down even 517 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,239 Speaker 1: more so where like where the most eperside we've ever been. 518 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: So a lot of the core business has been like 519 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 1: a forty five degree line trendline, but then you have 520 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 1: that blip, as you said, like the blip higher, blip 521 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: back down. They're now about four billion combined from their 522 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: peaks of like forty billion combined. So it's amazing to 523 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: have witness the rocket ship in the we call the hangover. 524 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: I mean, what's interesting is the the end today is 525 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: back to the all time low levels that when dctually 526 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: was at its peak and people just haven't been caring, 527 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: which is which is a very interesting dynamic. So on 528 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 1: our team we call that the second play at the Apple. 529 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 1: And it just seems like it doesn't happen if you 530 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: look at funds from the nineties and the eighties, and 531 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: these trends usually when the when the trade comes back. 532 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: People just they just are in at the second time. 533 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 1: But you're right, you do have what four or five 534 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: billion and you had you know, if you just erase 535 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: the up and down, it looks like a nice little growth. 536 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: Any more questions for open up to the artist. I 537 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: have a question, UM, I do want to ask about 538 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: f R d M. This is a question that I'm 539 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 1: going to steal from Todd Rosenbluth. Actually, I'm curious what 540 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,400 Speaker 1: countries are on the cusp of getting added to your 541 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: e t F because I mean, we've talked a lot 542 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 1: about what isn't in there. I love to know what 543 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,400 Speaker 1: could make it into their Yeah, So I'm gonna start 544 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 1: with what countries are in there currently. So the top 545 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 1: four countries, which are always typically the top four, these 546 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 1: don't change very much, is Taiwan, South Korea, Turkey, and 547 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 1: Poland and Chili and Poland. UM, I don't know if 548 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,400 Speaker 1: you with tydes of notice. Chili is benefited from UM 549 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 1: the commodities trade since the beginning of the Ukraine crisis, 550 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: and UM, Poland has been on the forefront of fighting 551 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: for freedom, helping Ukraine. UM in that in that sense 552 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: that we're very proud of that Um. Now the country 553 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: is on the CUSP. There are several India was in 554 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,640 Speaker 1: in two thousand twenty left in two thousand twenty one. 555 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: Got dropped because of several things. They increased the repression 556 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: of their cashmere peoples, they had more media repression from 557 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 1: the government, and they blacked out internet in places that 558 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: had protests. So due to those human rights issues, their 559 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: score dropped in two thousand twenty and they were dropped 560 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: from the index. Now they're very much on the CUSP 561 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: and could come in at any point. Brazil is on 562 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: the CUSP currently in could go out at any point. Um. Malaysia, Thailand, 563 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: and Columbia are some other countries that are on the CUSP. 564 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: On the CUSP. These countries, Uh, it's interesting the e 565 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: M and they get graduate to the bigger indices. In 566 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: your case, it's a whole different kind of graduation. Um. 567 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: All right, um, look, let's let's have some fun here. Everybody. Somebody, 568 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: if you have a question, raise your hand and there's 569 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: a mic that you can use. But if you we 570 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: can't get the mic, I'll just repeat the question. So 571 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: somebody out there help me and break the ice. Is 572 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: Todd Rosen blues In the room nature racy. Come on, somebody, 573 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: come on, come on. You can even ask them like 574 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:18,719 Speaker 1: their favorite movie, uh or maybe their favorite stocks. Oh, 575 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: here we go. Thank you? All right? Hold on, yes, 576 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: hold on, let me repeat it. Because what percentage of 577 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: the value trade in the emerging markets is directly related 578 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: to commodities. So I mentioned two different funds, So d 579 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: e M was high dividend e M And to the 580 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,719 Speaker 1: point on how different markets are today, I mean, there 581 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: was a point when in two thousand and eight commodities 582 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: energy materials are like a third of MSc E margin marketing. 583 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: Today it's it's small double digits in D E M. 584 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: It's it's close to between energy and material so it's 585 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: it's it's a high number UM. So it's a big 586 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: part of that. D G asked this small cap which 587 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: is a value part that was also positive on the 588 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 1: year when the end is downten UM is not so 589 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: commodity centric. It's more it has some of the Taiwan 590 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: that Perth was mentioning Korea, it's got India. It's sort 591 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: of a broader than commodities. Industrial is local manufacturing, but 592 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: so not as much in the commodity sectors. It's a 593 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: little bit of both, but in d em in particular 594 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: very high. Yes, sir, Okay, what do you think that 595 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: will happen? I picked the wrong were my I should 596 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: have won more T shirt today, Um, Jeremy talking about yes. 597 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: So here's the question is who and when? Well, I 598 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: guess when will the spot bit koiny TF be approved 599 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: and who will be the big winner? Whoever's out first 600 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: is basically an instant billionaire. They can just go retire. UM. 601 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: I know you guys want to be first, but we 602 00:30:55,800 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: take that. We're trying hard. UM. We've added some features 603 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: to our filings that Gensler is looking for. UM. The 604 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,239 Speaker 1: question is is there's any filing going to be in 605 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: his in his mind with the exchanges, is to get 606 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: a regulatory exchange where it could be traded, I think 607 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: is one of the big question. But we were adding 608 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: the forty Act features that he likes, trying to use 609 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: a a bank custodian. That's different than some of the 610 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: other filings. UM, but you know it's it's an open question. 611 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: We're not waiting on him. We've been working on an 612 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: indexing business, a direct indexing business. You're a lot about 613 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: direct indexing. Equities and bonds, and there's number of platforms 614 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: uh some here UM with former colleagues that Eric Dave 615 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: Abner from Gemini in particular, that are can make it 616 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: make it access to these products through a direct s 617 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: m A uh. And so we're working on indexes for 618 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: that type of application and and going beyond just the 619 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: spot bitcoining. And you have products in Europe right where 620 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: anything goes over there. You can launch a mid Were 621 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: you the ones who undercut UM I forget who it was? 622 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 1: Twenty one shares maybe on a Huolka dot etf So 623 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: we launched a few. So yeah, we were early bitcoin 624 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: ether baskets. We have a fifty fifty, We have an 625 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: add coins large cap. We did Polka Dot, Salana and 626 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: Cardano three of them. So yeah, you're doing a lot 627 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: of the katie. You probably have e tp s for tokens. 628 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: I haven't even heard about yet. So I have heard 629 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: about Polka dot well, I think there's a fee war 630 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: already on Polka dot ETPs in the Europe. In Europe, 631 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: and we don't have a spot e t F. Hence 632 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: my my shirt that I made specifically, I'm surprised aren't 633 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: carrying it. Around here. It's dirty. I sweat a lot yesterday. 634 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: It's hot here. Um, okay, anyone else question? Yeah, sure, 635 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: in the back. Yeah, I'll be a bad audience number 636 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: and take the conversation back to a previous topic. I 637 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: like it you raised currency hedging and developed markets, but 638 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: actually curious about how both of you think about emerging markets. 639 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: And when you are bullish about an emerging market, is 640 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: it more the currency, is that the actual equities? Is 641 00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: it both? How they interacting? What do you think about that? 642 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: All it? So the question is currency hedging typically used 643 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: in international developed like Japan in Europe? What about em 644 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: do you guys like to apply currency hedging there? Um? 645 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: Given the cost? So I've been big on saying in 646 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: developed markets a it's a better than free option to hedge. 647 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: And I say it's a better than free option because 648 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: in general you're paid to hedge as a US investor, 649 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: particularly now, is the FEDS raising rates in the Bank 650 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: of Japan's negative, the CBS negative, Swiss is very negative, 651 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: and so you have this huge positive carry. And I 652 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: wrote a piece on on Monday talking about how the 653 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: dollar is like the most negatively correlated asset to the 654 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: sp five hundred more negatively than BOX. So like why 655 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: people like to bet on these currencies going up forever, 656 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: which I call on compensated US I don't understand that, 657 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: So that goes back to that question. UM. In e M, though, 658 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 1: it's not better than free option. You have to pay 659 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: the carry, and the carry is high on average, and 660 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: the very high um like Brazil height to double digit rates, 661 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: so then you've gotta be breaking even. You got the 662 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,040 Speaker 1: currencies go down by more than that ten percent and 663 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: carry on average, which is a tougher proposition. So I'd 664 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: say EM has been different. If you're gonna do it, 665 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: be very tactical, dynamic on time in terms of timing 666 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: those things. We did launch a family of dynamic hedging 667 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 1: type things to try to help with that, to manage 668 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 1: to cost better and also to try to use factors 669 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: in developed world to do that as well. Um, but 670 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: it's not the same in e M as in developed 671 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 1: I mean, EM currencies are up this year with the 672 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,919 Speaker 1: carry when the dollar is up. So it's another fascinating proposition. Yeah, 673 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: we don't specifically hedge currencies in our product, but what 674 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: we do have is a metric for sound money. So 675 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,720 Speaker 1: we're gonna be in the markets that have more sound 676 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 1: monetary policies that have had less inflation historically. UM. And 677 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: we actually have investors who have told me they're investing 678 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: because the freer markets have less currency risk, and so 679 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: that's one of the main risks in EM that we 680 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 1: do address through that sound money metric. Good question one 681 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: or two more? I think you had one up here? No, 682 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:06,720 Speaker 1: oh you, I couldn't. I did, I did that? That? 683 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 1: That must have been their question. Oh yeah, is that 684 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 1: you Jeremy? Okay, alright, Hi, I haven't. I haven't seen 685 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: Hi yet. I just saw you just now for the 686 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 1: first time. Okay, Hey, I have a question for Perth UM. 687 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: How is how much interest has your product been garnering 688 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: from E S G allocators and UM and UM and 689 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: E S G seeking institutions because it seems like your 690 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: product is the most based on the most fundamental G 691 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 1: of all. Yeah, question is how much is Perth's product 692 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: f R d M been creating interest from institutions? UM 693 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 1: And that's a great question because I would also add 694 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 1: on to that, do you fear an institution liking your 695 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 1: idea and then just doing it on their own. We're 696 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,800 Speaker 1: using someone else or having someone else make the product 697 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,760 Speaker 1: for them. Yeah. So we actually most of the product 698 00:35:57,880 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: right now, I would say the entire a U S 699 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: is retail and retail advisors. UM. I would say of 700 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: that most of them are in it for the potential 701 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 1: outperformance in emerging markets that are more free. UM. But 702 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: we do have a lot more interest from institutions now 703 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: that we're big enough to to get institutional attention and 704 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: money and UM we have seen a lot of that. 705 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,280 Speaker 1: We were you know, started and starting to get invited 706 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 1: to respond to our piece, which I'm very loath to 707 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 1: do just because it's a massive, massive process and we're 708 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 1: still pretty small. UM. But you know, maybe as we 709 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:32,839 Speaker 1: grow will do more of that. UM. We have had 710 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 1: some institutions that have asked us for our proprietary methodologies 711 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 1: and things like that. UM. And so so yeah, I 712 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 1: think there is always the concern, hey, are you just 713 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 1: trying to do this for yourself? UM, But I think 714 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 1: for the most part they've seen our kind of track record. 715 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: We have that almost three year as of next month's 716 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 1: track record UM. And as institutions adapt more to I 717 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: think ETS they will be more open to it. We 718 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: do also license our in us to institutions. Um, some 719 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: that are y s G doing additional y s G overlays. 720 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: So like the religious organizations, for example, will license the 721 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,239 Speaker 1: index and put their own overlays on top of our 722 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 1: country weights. Um, so there is that option for them 723 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: as well. Yes, alright over here, I want to take 724 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: this up a level higher. So if you're talking to clients, 725 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 1: I would love person Jeremy I for you guys to 726 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:30,440 Speaker 1: explain your kind of case at that most basic level. So, 727 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 1: if you've decided to pull out of questionable countries and 728 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: go full on, you know, freedom, how do you explain 729 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: that decision to clients who might be worried about missing 730 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 1: out on potential upsides? And if, on the other hand, 731 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 1: you make the decision to stay in China or Russia 732 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,400 Speaker 1: or those countries, and you have clients who are concerned 733 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,320 Speaker 1: about that, how do you defend that decision or explain 734 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,720 Speaker 1: that position to clients. So kind of at the highest level, 735 00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 1: how do you justify those things outside of the nerds 736 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 1: in this room? Yeah, So the question is if you 737 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 1: went with Perth and you didn't have China, Russia and 738 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 1: those countries started coming back and you underperformed, how do 739 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,720 Speaker 1: you deal with clients saying, oh, you know, I'm bummed 740 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: we didn't we're under performing now. And then on Jeremy's side, 741 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 1: what about now where you are underperforming because you have 742 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,799 Speaker 1: those countries and people might you know, I guess, how 743 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 1: do you deal with the complainers? Jeremy's letting me go 744 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 1: first on this because I have an unfair advantage. Right 745 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: now we are seeing only people that are coming to 746 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:30,919 Speaker 1: be saying, wow, I thank you for making me look 747 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,719 Speaker 1: so smart. Thank you. You know my clients that the 748 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: joy and relief of my clients when I tell them 749 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 1: how we invested for them. Um So I am seeing 750 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,320 Speaker 1: the opposite of that right now. But in the past 751 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:45,279 Speaker 1: I have heard those um kind of objections to this 752 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: type of strategy. How can you have no China? It's 753 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: you know, second biggest market in the world, and you 754 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 1: know it's freedom waiting, and that's that's what we do. 755 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,240 Speaker 1: This is the for people who believe in the benefits 756 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:58,880 Speaker 1: of freedom and want to capture that in their emerging markets. Allocations, 757 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,760 Speaker 1: you know, are returns are up. We're up since inception 758 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,719 Speaker 1: three years ago. Um e M is up in that 759 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 1: same time period. So we don't have to defend the 760 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,360 Speaker 1: performance right now. Their time may come a time and 761 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,760 Speaker 1: I expect that when we will have to defend that performance. 762 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 1: And it still comes down to that kind of freedom 763 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 1: waiting that we we just can't de gate from that. That 764 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,759 Speaker 1: That is our strategy in our theme and so with 765 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,359 Speaker 1: some Tree, you know, we've been a factory investor. Our 766 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,760 Speaker 1: first funds launched in June of two thousand and six, 767 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: all very value dividend base and then you had this 768 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:31,399 Speaker 1: huge growth market. So you know it was you were 769 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:35,320 Speaker 1: going into the headwind for a long time. I means finally, 770 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,560 Speaker 1: in a way you got a changing dynamic today. So 771 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 1: we started where we launched high dividends and value and 772 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 1: oh seven for e m UM, we didn't have the 773 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 1: growthy option and as we started to about how do 774 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:48,359 Speaker 1: you get a core with a growth told that's when 775 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:50,879 Speaker 1: we started looking at state owned companies and we saw 776 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,240 Speaker 1: like an Ali Baba and these other China tech companies 777 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 1: were the predominant of what e m growth was. And 778 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,440 Speaker 1: so we had launched these core products with a growth 779 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,279 Speaker 1: tilt being broad em with the the day don't tilt 780 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 1: and when the China specific one and so a lot 781 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,799 Speaker 1: of it is the factor exposures you're trying to get 782 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,320 Speaker 1: so you know, eat broad em, that's core more growth 783 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,200 Speaker 1: oorent did you go X stay down value? You go 784 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,759 Speaker 1: for dividends, and you know they have different cases. One 785 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,719 Speaker 1: is if you think China is being discounted today, that 786 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,759 Speaker 1: being this uninvestable narrative, which is very true. I mean, 787 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,320 Speaker 1: that's that's the what you hear all the time. You say, 788 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 1: you know, do you think there's actual value that and 789 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 1: people are overly discounting that and that when becomes turned 790 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: into an opportunity, or if you just think this inflation 791 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:36,840 Speaker 1: coming back to how Katie started that inflation is a 792 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: key issue. Growth is going to be continued under pressure. 793 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 1: That's where value dividends are really shining around the world, 794 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,759 Speaker 1: US E M broader national Uh, that factor has been 795 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:48,720 Speaker 1: the key factor and I think that's true in EM 796 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:53,520 Speaker 1: as well. All right, Katie, are you doing over there? 797 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,840 Speaker 1: Doing pretty good? It's fascinating. I will say I have 798 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,560 Speaker 1: learned a lot and it's great to I mean, this 799 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:02,360 Speaker 1: has been such a great panel. I'm glad that you 800 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 1: I'm sorry podcast this is specifically not a panel, but 801 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 1: it's great to get both perspectives on this topic, and 802 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,279 Speaker 1: we have a fun closing question that we ask all 803 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,960 Speaker 1: our guests. UM and I will start with Jeremy and 804 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,520 Speaker 1: then Perth. What is your favorite e t F ticker 805 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 1: that is not your own favorite ticker? Not my own? Um, 806 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: do I have any favorites? Are you are? You're that 807 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:29,720 Speaker 1: locked into wisdom for you don't even know what else exists. 808 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:31,719 Speaker 1: I'll give perth is sh out here. I mean, I 809 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:35,480 Speaker 1: like freedom. It's a good concept. I'll give a shout. Okay, Perth, 810 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 1: you can't pick a wisdom tree ticker. It's just too 811 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:43,520 Speaker 1: it's too much. Yeah, okay, uh is moves still around. 812 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,279 Speaker 1: It is moves the most popular answer. By the way, 813 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: what about meme is pretty good? Yeah, it's good. I'm 814 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,240 Speaker 1: just saying moves moves like the Mona Lisa of tickers. 815 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 1: They just it's hard to beat that. Um. I also 816 00:41:56,160 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 1: like verbs, so who is right? And there's also is 817 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 1: Romo Romo And by the way, Romo is in the crowd, 818 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:09,239 Speaker 1: not Tony Tony. But by the way, as an Eagles fan, 819 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,319 Speaker 1: when I saw that you launched that it, I had 820 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 1: to deal with that for a while. But now he's 821 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 1: a good announcer. So is it's okay, but anyway, um, 822 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:17,440 Speaker 1: all right, well, I want to thank you guys for 823 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 1: coming on. I want to thank you guys for attending 824 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:32,920 Speaker 1: and uh, great job. Thank you, thank you. Thanks for 825 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,400 Speaker 1: listening to Trillions. Until next time. You can find us 826 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,440 Speaker 1: on the Bloomberg Terminal, Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcast, Spotify, 827 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,360 Speaker 1: and wherever else you'd like to listen. We'd love to 828 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,279 Speaker 1: hear from you. We're on Twitter. I'm at Joel Webber Show. 829 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 1: He's at Eric Faltunas. This episode of Trillions was produced 830 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,960 Speaker 1: by Magnus Hendrickson. Francesca Levie is the head of Bloomberg 831 00:42:51,960 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 1: podcast Spipe to the Theater and to