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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick.

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Speaker 1: And this is going to be part two of a

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Speaker 1: two part episode about the attention economy and the technosphere,

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Speaker 1: the war for your eyeballs and the fact that we

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Speaker 1: live in a technological economy that in which platforms and

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Speaker 1: apps and devices are constantly trying to suck in your

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Speaker 1: attention and they're succeeding. They're working so good. If you

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Speaker 1: have not listened to our first episode, you should go

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Speaker 1: back listen to that first. That's where we lay the

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Speaker 1: whole groundwork try to explain the problem of what's going

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Speaker 1: on with the attention economy today. But just as a

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Speaker 1: quick refresher, if you've already listened to the episode, to

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Speaker 1: put it back in your mind, what do we talk

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Speaker 1: about last time? We basically talked about the attention economy,

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Speaker 1: the idea that your attention, my attention, it is a depletable,

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Speaker 1: finite resource. And every time there is a pop up

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Speaker 1: on our phone, every time we obey the impulse to

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Speaker 1: check Facebook or Twitter or Instagram or what have you,

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Speaker 1: it is depleting not only precious time, but precious energy

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Speaker 1: and precious will. Right, it's it really matters. It's taking

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Speaker 1: us away from the things that we would like to

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Speaker 1: be doing with our time ultimately to get what we

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Speaker 1: want out of life, the things that really matter to us,

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Speaker 1: and instead putting us into these easy, habitual modes of

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Speaker 1: passive consumption of digitally supplied information and entertainment that that

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Speaker 1: ultimately we can end up feeling hollow and regretful after

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Speaker 1: we experience. Right, even if it's not hurting us causing

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Speaker 1: us direct harm, that those that I think there's some

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Speaker 1: evidence that it is actually hurting us in the sense

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Speaker 1: of what we talked about with by constantly interrupting us.

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Speaker 1: It's lowering our cognitive performance, making us less smart by

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Speaker 1: constantly pulling us out of focus on tasks and interrupting

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Speaker 1: us all the time, and just having us always aware

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Speaker 1: of like the interruption, threat of a new message or

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Speaker 1: notification or something. So it might actually be harming us.

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Speaker 1: But even if it's not harming us, it's causing us

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Speaker 1: to voluntarily spend our time and attention in ways that

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Speaker 1: are not what we want out of life, and we

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Speaker 1: end up feeling regretful, and in a way we are

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Speaker 1: victims of shock, future shock, Future Shock, tell me about

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Speaker 1: future shock? Yes, well, okay, so listen. Long time listeners

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Speaker 1: to the show might remember that we we had a

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Speaker 1: two parter years and years ago about the about future shock,

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Speaker 1: Alvin Toffler, Alvin Toffler's nineteen seventy book and just general

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Speaker 1: idea of future shock. Also, there is a wonderful, I

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Speaker 1: think nineteen seventy two TV documentary about the Cooper Cronenberg. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it has kind of a twilight Zony Cronenbergie vibe, and

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Speaker 1: it's narrated by Orson Wells. It's a it's a little overwrought,

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Speaker 1: as you might imagine, but it's still very good. It's

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Speaker 1: it's all on YouTube. You should be able to find it.

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Speaker 1: So I've never actually read this book. I know it's

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Speaker 1: a classic work of futurism, uh, and I should read

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Speaker 1: it at some point, but I haven't read it. So Robert,

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Speaker 1: can you explain to me the idea of future shock? Alright?

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Speaker 1: So the book itself, which is still a fine read,

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Speaker 1: even though it is again in the decades old book

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Speaker 1: at this point, but it touched on a number of

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Speaker 1: contemporary and looming aspects of technological advancement, including over choice,

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Speaker 1: pressure to keep up with the latest technology, rapidly expanding knowledge,

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Speaker 1: information overload, computer fueled society, temporary consumer culture, young new

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Speaker 1: transient lifestyles, instant intimacy, as well as more sort of

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Speaker 1: sci fi ideas you might say, such as cyborgs, modular bodies,

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Speaker 1: and prosthetics. Okay, but how's this come into the idea

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Speaker 1: of the attention economy. Did Toffler actually predict that we

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Speaker 1: would be in this situation of being surrounded by by

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Speaker 1: machines that's so efficiently drained away our attention? He did?

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Speaker 1: He did, in fact, so I want to read a

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Speaker 1: passage here from future Shock. For while we tend to

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Speaker 1: focus on only one situation at a time, the increased

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Speaker 1: rate at which situations flow past us vastly complicates the

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Speaker 1: entire structure of life, multiplying the number of roles we

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Speaker 1: must play and the number of choices we are forced

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Speaker 1: to make. This, in turn, accounts for the choking sense

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Speaker 1: of complexity about contemporary life. Moreover, the speeded up flow

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Speaker 1: through of situations demands much more work from the complex

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Speaker 1: focusing mechanisms by which we shift our attention from one

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Speaker 1: situation to another. There is more switching back and forth,

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Speaker 1: less time for extended, peaceful attention to one problem or

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Speaker 1: situation at a time. This is what lies behind the

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Speaker 1: vague feeling noted earlier that quote things are moving faster,

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Speaker 1: they are around us and through us. So that sounds like,

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Speaker 1: for one thing, some recognition of a thing we mentioned

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Speaker 1: in the last episode, the ta shifting penalty, right, that

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Speaker 1: we're downgrading the quality of our cognition by constantly shifting

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Speaker 1: between focus on different tasks. But it's more than that, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's he He goes on in the section of the

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Speaker 1: book and says, quote all this represents the press of

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Speaker 1: engineered messages against his senses, and the pressure is rising.

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Speaker 1: In an effort to transmit even richer image producing messages

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Speaker 1: at an even faster rate. Communications people, artists, and others

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Speaker 1: consciously work to make each instant of exposure to the

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Speaker 1: mass media carry a heavier informational and emotional freight. I

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Speaker 1: want to read just one more quote here from the book,

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Speaker 1: because this touches on sort of again. This was like

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Speaker 1: nine late sixties that he would have been writing this,

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Speaker 1: Uh to to ground it but I think it's very

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Speaker 1: applicable to some of what we're discussing here today, he said. Quote.

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Speaker 1: The religious fervor and bizarre behavior of certain hippie cultists

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Speaker 1: may arise not merely from drug abuse, but from experimentation

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Speaker 1: with both sensory deprivation and bombardment. The chanting of monotonous mantras,

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Speaker 1: the attempt to focus the individual's attention on interior bodily

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Speaker 1: sensation to the exclusion of outside stimuli, our efforts to

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Speaker 1: induce the weird and sometimes hallucinatory effects of under stimulation.

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Speaker 1: At the other end of the scale, we note the

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Speaker 1: glaze stairs and numb expressionalist faces of youthful dancers at

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Speaker 1: the great rock music auditoriums, where light shows, split screen movies,

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Speaker 1: high decibel scream shouts and moans, grotesque costumes, and writhing

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Speaker 1: painted bodies create a sensory environment characterized by high input

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Speaker 1: and extreme unpredictability and novelty. Now, now that's a fun passage,

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Speaker 1: because there is this sort of sense of oh, the

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Speaker 1: the young hippies and their their their craziness. But but

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Speaker 1: at at heart, this idea of over and understimulation, this

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Speaker 1: questing for bodily stillness in relation to this overly stimula

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Speaker 1: added world, I think is crucial to what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about here, and I think it kind of supports this

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Speaker 1: idea that that Alvin Toffler warned us. Alvin Toffler told

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Speaker 1: us so he warned us of this future shock. Well,

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Speaker 1: it makes me think about the inherent uh fallacy where

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Speaker 1: we would tend to assume that boy having lots of

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Speaker 1: input coming into the mind, that would essentially be an

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Speaker 1: enriching experience. Right, the more input is coming in, the

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Speaker 1: more stocks of information and wisdom you should be building up, right,

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Speaker 1: But I think that's not necessarily the case. In fact,

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Speaker 1: having many information streams coming into the mind tends to

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Speaker 1: instead confuse the input processing devices within the mind, and

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Speaker 1: instead of enriching the mind, it sort of just numbs

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Speaker 1: the mind. Yeah, like the the idea that he touches

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Speaker 1: on about over choice, I feel over choice, uh like crazy.

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Speaker 1: I feel like any time that I am just casting

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Speaker 1: about on say Netflix, to see what I might be

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Speaker 1: interested in watching, they're just there's so many options that

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Speaker 1: will end up just scaling through them all and not

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Speaker 1: watching anything, and hopefully you have a completely unfulfilling experience.

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Speaker 1: Because I didn't actually view a movie on this this app,

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Speaker 1: this service, this industry that is about delivering me a movie. Now,

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Speaker 1: something I want to come back to in a minute

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Speaker 1: is it's interesting because that app is different than many

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Speaker 1: of the other things we're talking about. Many of the

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Speaker 1: things we're talking about demand our attention because they are

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Speaker 1: ad supported, or because they're gathering data on the user,

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Speaker 1: in which the user's attention and the times they spend

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Speaker 1: paying attention to the app is literally what's valuable to

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Speaker 1: the content producer or to the platform. Right. Netflix is

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Speaker 1: a different thing because it's subscription based and so you're

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Speaker 1: paying to have access to it, So like, why would

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Speaker 1: they want you to keep paying attention that that's an

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Speaker 1: interesting question. We can maybe talk about that a little

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Speaker 1: bit more. But another point about Netflix I do want

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Speaker 1: to make real quick is that, as we I think

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Speaker 1: said last time, we don't want to demonize all consumption

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Speaker 1: of information or entertainment through digital formats, right, because ultimately,

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Speaker 1: what you want when you use Netflix is to watch

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Speaker 1: a movie, and we like watching movies. Like watching a

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Speaker 1: movie is a valuable activity to me, and when it's

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Speaker 1: a movie, I like that, I that I care about Uh,

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Speaker 1: that is something that I feel like is worth doing

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Speaker 1: with my free time. It's something that that brings me pleasure.

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Speaker 1: And I'd say a similar thing for lots of the

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Speaker 1: other apps I use. I enjoy the digital content I

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Speaker 1: consume through my books apps. I enjoy the digital content

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Speaker 1: I consume through my podcast apps. But one of the

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Speaker 1: things that makes these apps a little more difficult to use,

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Speaker 1: even though we get more enjoyment out of them, is

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Speaker 1: that you have to make conscious decisions about how to

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Speaker 1: use them, right. You have to seek out the thing

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Speaker 1: you want. I know, I want to listen to this podcast.

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Speaker 1: I know I want to listen to this musical album.

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Speaker 1: I know I want to watch this movie. Whereas we

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Speaker 1: are served this content so much more passively and automatically

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Speaker 1: by many of these other apps that make us feel regretful,

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Speaker 1: by our social media apps and by the games that

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Speaker 1: just sort of launch and then it's an incoming stream

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Speaker 1: of stimulation. Does that make sense? Yeah? No, yeah, it

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Speaker 1: does make me wonder to what extent these various uh

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Speaker 1: like Alexa type products UH where you have some sort

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Speaker 1: of a smart speaker that you talk to and then

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Speaker 1: it fetches what you need. I wonder if that could

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Speaker 1: be a way to mitigate this effect in the future

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Speaker 1: where it's it's you have this robot that's essentially doing

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Speaker 1: the surfing for you. It's going to be the one

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Speaker 1: dealing with the and and and ultimately not having to

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Speaker 1: deal with the over choice of say a Netflix que Yeah. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think one thing we should explore in

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Speaker 1: the second episode here is the idea of how because

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Speaker 1: like I said, we don't want to just demonize technology.

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Speaker 1: It's not like digital platforms are inherently bad as a concept.

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Speaker 1: It's that they have taken on this form that is

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Speaker 1: giving up, that's taking away our attention in our lives

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Speaker 1: without really giving us a lot of value, giving us

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Speaker 1: always the things we want. Though sometimes we do get

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Speaker 1: the things we want out of them, it's just that

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Speaker 1: that's not always presented in such an engrossing and addictive

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Speaker 1: way as the stuff we don't really ultimately want. Is So,

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Speaker 1: how to make technology work better for us to give

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Speaker 1: us what we actually want and actually care about that

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Speaker 1: that's something that matters, and it's a question we should address.

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Speaker 1: But I think maybe we should take a quick break,

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Speaker 1: and we come back from that break, we will look

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Speaker 1: at an essay about how these apps and devices are

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Speaker 1: specifically engineered to hijack our brains. Alright, we're back, so

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Speaker 1: let's get into some of the specific tricks that are

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Speaker 1: that are involved here, like what what are these devices doing?

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Speaker 1: All right? Right here, I want to turn to a

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteen essay by a guy we've mentioned, a guy

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Speaker 1: named Tristan Harris who's a former Google employee. Now he

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Speaker 1: uh found. He's one of the foul unders of this

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Speaker 1: movement now called Time Well Spent, which is focused on

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Speaker 1: exactly this issue we've been talking about over these past

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Speaker 1: couple of episodes, the idea of the attention economy and

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Speaker 1: the fact that our technological devices and apps are not

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Speaker 1: really giving us what we want in terms of our

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Speaker 1: attention investment, but they're they're nevertheless extremely powerful and harnessing

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Speaker 1: that attention. And so Harris in this essay is trying

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Speaker 1: to explain how it works, how they capture our attentions

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Speaker 1: so effectively, so powerfully, and how we are so powerless

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Speaker 1: to resist. So he cites the fact that he was

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Speaker 1: formerly a design ethicistic Google and he spent his life

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Speaker 1: studying security vulnerabilities in the human brain. Ways to trick

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Speaker 1: the brain and subvert its will without the person ever

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Speaker 1: realizing what's happening. In his words, quote how technology hijacks

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Speaker 1: are psychological vulnerabilities, and he goes on the list ten

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Speaker 1: ways that technology mapul manipulates and controls us invisibly. I'll

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Speaker 1: try to mention them all, but explain a few of

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Speaker 1: them in depth. One of them is that when you

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Speaker 1: have a technological platform that allows people to use it freely,

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Speaker 1: that platform controls the menu of options that people have

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Speaker 1: available to them. And yet it's still simulates the feeling

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Speaker 1: of having free choice, right. I mean, it's kind of

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Speaker 1: like asking a five year old what they want for dinner.

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Speaker 1: You you don't you don't let them have free range.

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Speaker 1: You don't say what do you want? You say, do

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Speaker 1: you want broccoli or spinach? Right? You give them the

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Speaker 1: choices that you are already prepared to make, and you

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Speaker 1: don't have a third choice that you that you are

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Speaker 1: totally not into yourself. Right, And well, that makes a

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Speaker 1: lot of sense with the child, and maybe sometimes with

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Speaker 1: certain types of bosses, but that is also how these

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Speaker 1: apps work. They have the feeling of giving us a

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Speaker 1: lot of choice by giving us a menu of options

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Speaker 1: of things to do, but also by discouraging us from

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Speaker 1: wondering why aren't I allowed to do different things that

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Speaker 1: aren't on this list? Okay, So the idea here is,

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Speaker 1: again we have an illusion of choice, but we're still

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Speaker 1: being herded into a few pre selected ideal choices, right,

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Speaker 1: and generally, what those pre selected ideal choices do is

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Speaker 1: keep us engaged with the apps and platforms we're using.

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Speaker 1: So instead of uh, instead of thinking of the open

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Speaker 1: ended question, who could I hang out with tonight? Instead,

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Speaker 1: the apps on your phone encourage you to think, who

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Speaker 1: are the most recent people I've been texting with that

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Speaker 1: I could pay about this and continue texting with. Or

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Speaker 1: instead of what's happening in the world an open ended question,

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Speaker 1: you could investigate lots of ways, it becomes let's see

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Speaker 1: what's happening on my news app feed? Keeps me engaged

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Speaker 1: with the device and with the app on it, Yes,

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Speaker 1: and which stories have been updated? And okay are they

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Speaker 1: going to be updated? Now? Oh? I better check it again,

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Speaker 1: see if that story has been updated once more. The

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Speaker 1: second point that Harris makes, I think is maybe the

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Speaker 1: most important point on the whole list. He he draws

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Speaker 1: a lot of attention to it, And I think this

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Speaker 1: is very important. We've discussed slow machines on the show before, yes,

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Speaker 1: we I don't think it's uh, it's unfair for us

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Speaker 1: to say that that we do not like slot machines.

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Speaker 1: They are these highly advanced, very smart, highly developed parasites

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Speaker 1: that are engineered perfectly to drain us of money by

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Speaker 1: appealing to our reward seeking minds. But why are slot

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Speaker 1: machines so addictive? What's the trick like? One of the

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Speaker 1: things that has pointed out in harris His essay is

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Speaker 1: that he cites the work of the n y U

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Speaker 1: professor Natasha Dao school, author of Addiction by Design, which

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Speaker 1: found that people get quote problematically involved with slot machines

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Speaker 1: three to four times faster than they do with other

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Speaker 1: types of gambling. So why would that be? Why are

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Speaker 1: slot machines so much more effective at causing problem gambling

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Speaker 1: behaviors than a craps table or a poker game. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, on one hand, it's certainly a farm more

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Speaker 1: mindless endeavor. Right, You're just you're just to pull on

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Speaker 1: the level, You're just essentially hitting refresh and seeing what happens.

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Speaker 1: Am I a winner? This time, I am a winner.

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Speaker 1: This time, there's no there's no strategy, there's no there's

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Speaker 1: certainly no card counting. It's just let me take another

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Speaker 1: go at it and see what life a k A.

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Speaker 1: The machine that had been programmed to drain my money, uh,

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Speaker 1: to see what it allows to happen. Yeah, and apparently

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Speaker 1: the number one factor making slot machines so devilishly irresistible

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Speaker 1: and addictive is what's called quote intermittent variable rewards. Intermittent

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Speaker 1: variable rewards. This means that you create a circuit where

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Speaker 1: a simple user action, just like you're talking about pressing

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Speaker 1: a button, pulling a lever, reloading a page, opening an app,

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Speaker 1: very simple action to do, leads to a variable reward

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Speaker 1: at a variable rate. So variable reward means that when

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Speaker 1: you complete the user action, sometimes you get nothing, sometimes

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Speaker 1: you get a small reward, sometimes you get a big reward.

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Speaker 1: And the variable rate means that it's not predictive will win.

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Speaker 1: These rewards will come in a sequence of actions. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: It's it's like checking Twitter, for instance. Yeah, I refresh,

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Speaker 1: and who knows what I'll get. Maybe I'll get to

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Speaker 1: have a notification. Yeah, and somebody at mention, Yes, somebody's

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Speaker 1: talking to me or about me, or my favorite comedian

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Speaker 1: has a funny statement to make. There's a new trailer

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Speaker 1: for a movie I want, or oh, nuclear war, it

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Speaker 1: could be it could be anything right, or the message inbox,

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Speaker 1: likes on a post or a tweet, the matches on

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Speaker 1: a dating app. It's all intermittent variable rewards. You keep refreshing,

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Speaker 1: you keep checking, hoping that there will be some reward,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes there is. Sometimes there's something that's a little

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Speaker 1: bit socially gratifying, sometimes there's something that's a lot socially gratifying.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes there's nothing. There's nothing. A lot of times there's nothing.

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Speaker 1: And when there is nothing, that actually really keeps you

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Speaker 1: checking it once you keeps you searching that next reward.

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Speaker 1: So the intermittent variable rewards matrix is an extremely powerful

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Speaker 1: exploit on the human mind. It's a it's a known

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Speaker 1: vulnerable pity, and most tech devices like phones and stuff

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Speaker 1: and the most used apps are making use of intermittent

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Speaker 1: variable rewards. Now, Harris mentions that this kind of thing

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Speaker 1: doesn't have to be an intentional design at first, like

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Speaker 1: apps could land on these strategies by accident. They didn't.

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Speaker 1: They didn't have to say let's make it a slot

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Speaker 1: machine from the beginning, But once it works like a

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Speaker 1: slot machine, they realize that that's very effective and maximizing

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Speaker 1: time on site or user engagement or repeated pickups throughout

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Speaker 1: the day. Yeah, it's kind of a parallel evolution type situation,

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Speaker 1: right where this particular form moves the fastest through water.

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Speaker 1: This is the design that has been selected. Okay. A

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Speaker 1: third point Harris makes is that these apps encourage us

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Speaker 1: to think, what if I miss something important? Well, we

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Speaker 1: have a bit little bit of a fear of missing

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Speaker 1: out and all of that, but also, yeah, I do

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Speaker 1: want to know if there's nuclear war. I'm not I'm

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Speaker 1: not exactly sure why. There may not be much that

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Speaker 1: I can do, but it's gonna be something. It's it's

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Speaker 1: an important event, and I need to know that it

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Speaker 1: has happened. Another thing, he mentions our desire for social approval.

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Speaker 1: They really play on this, like, we are largely social

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Speaker 1: creatures with socially shaped brains, and we're highly motivated by

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Speaker 1: feelings of social inclusion and approval and avoiding feelings of

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Speaker 1: social exclusion and disapproval. So when somebody thinks to quote

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Speaker 1: mention you on Facebook. You've seen this, uh this capability, right,

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Speaker 1: you can tag a person's name and a post on Facebook.

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Speaker 1: This feels intensely rewarding to people. But I got mentioned

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Speaker 1: it was me, I'm I'm what this person was thinking about? Right,

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Speaker 1: and then you click and you see, oh wait, they

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Speaker 1: tagged everybody, yeah and so. But unfortunately, these mentions, as

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Speaker 1: rewarding as they feel, they don't spring forth directly from

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Speaker 1: people's social relationships. You'll notice that Facebook tries to get

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Speaker 1: people to do this. It tries to make you mention

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Speaker 1: other Facebook users as often as possible, suggesting they be

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Speaker 1: tagged in photos, suggesting they be named and tagged in

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Speaker 1: the post you're making, and so forth. Also, have you

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Speaker 1: ever noticed how the Facebook news feed algorithm favors prominent

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Speaker 1: and repeated display of posts that have comments saying the

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Speaker 1: word congratulations. I have not noticed this. Tried this sometimes,

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Speaker 1: like if somebody posts something that has no congratulatory content,

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Speaker 1: nothing worth congratulating in it, just start commenting congratulations on it.

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Speaker 1: I think that this moves that post up in the

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Speaker 1: news feed and more people see it. And because they

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Speaker 1: want to get people engaging with some kind of chain

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Speaker 1: of social approval, which keeps people glued to the app

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Speaker 1: see this is this is probably one of those situations

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Speaker 1: where I would have assumed it had more to do

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Speaker 1: with my attention, the idea that I'm more inclined to

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Speaker 1: notice when somebody else has been congratulated on something, and

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Speaker 1: that may go in like negative or positive directions, right

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Speaker 1: because it could be somebody that I deeply care about them,

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Speaker 1: or it's you know, or it's me, and of course

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Speaker 1: I'm invested in them getting congratulate relations or I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: I have this kind of bitter feeling where it's like, ah,

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Speaker 1: then look at that they got a new puppy dog

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Speaker 1: and the getting all these congratulations about it. I don't

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Speaker 1: have a puppy dog. Well, either way, you're engaged, aren't you.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know if that's the case. I really

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Speaker 1: strongly think that's the case. That's not a point Harris

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Speaker 1: makes about congratulations. That was just something I think I've observed,

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Speaker 1: But I wonder I really do see it seeming to

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Speaker 1: get highlighted and moved up. Sometimes Facebook will even like

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Speaker 1: bold the word congratulations in the comments as they display

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Speaker 1: on your news feed. Another point Harris mentions is playing

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Speaker 1: upon our feeling of responsibility for social reciprocity. Somebody followed you,

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Speaker 1: better follow them back. Somebody wrote you a LinkedIn recommendation,

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Speaker 1: Better write one for them. Here's a really devious iteration

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Speaker 1: of this. Why did Facebook start doing that thing in

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Speaker 1: Facebook Messenger where it tells the sender that the message

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Speaker 1: has been seen. Oh yeah, that's that's It's like they're

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Speaker 1: just trying to get you in trouble for for dragging

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Speaker 1: your feet. It puts pressure on the recipient of a

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Speaker 1: message to respond. You can't pretend you haven't read the message.

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Speaker 1: It tells them you saw it, so now you really

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Speaker 1: need to spend some time in the app composing a response,

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Speaker 1: or or it's something like in a chat where it's

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Speaker 1: saying Joe is typing a response and oh, one what

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Speaker 1: he's chatting. Oh he's really been going at this for

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Speaker 1: a while. This must be great, and then he never

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Speaker 1: sends it and he's like, oh, what was it? What

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Speaker 1: was this epic poem that Joe was composing. I can't

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Speaker 1: remember where I saw this cartoon, but it was hilarious

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Speaker 1: where I probably just saw it on some social media

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Speaker 1: feed anonymously in the middle of the ether, but it

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Speaker 1: was where you you message somebody, Um, hey, what did

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Speaker 1: you think of my thing? You know, some something that

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Speaker 1: you did, What did you think of my poem? And

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Speaker 1: it's like so and so is typing so and so

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Speaker 1: is typing so and so is typing so and so

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Speaker 1: is typing so and so is typing response It was great. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've I've seen that's that's sort of affected before as

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Speaker 1: well on the whole um, uh, you know following people

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Speaker 1: back then, I do have to add that, surely I'm

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Speaker 1: not alone when I see like a celebrity Twitter account

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Speaker 1: where they either have they either like they'll have like

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Speaker 1: you know, several million followers or whatever, but then if

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Speaker 1: they follow zero people or only one person or it's

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Speaker 1: some pre selected fun number, Um, I kind of always

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Speaker 1: have this impulse to say, you're a monster, what is

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Speaker 1: the matter with you? Like, I don't have that judgment

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Speaker 1: about people who have more followers than than people they're following.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you could ultimately only follow so many feeds,

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Speaker 1: I feel, uh, and certainly if you were if you

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Speaker 1: were a celebrity or there's going to be that imbalance.

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Speaker 1: But when when these people have like I follow nobody,

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Speaker 1: I am my own voice, or or I follow one

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Speaker 1: person and it is the lord, or I don't know this. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it always kind of irks me. Okay. The next

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Speaker 1: point Harris makes that they use is infinite displays, AutoPlay videos,

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Speaker 1: infinitely scrolling news feeds. There's no natural stopping point. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you just keep going on and down, down forever, and

428
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 1: maybe you cannot get to the bottom of the screen.

429
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: It's like playing tetris. Yeah. And this is a psychological

430
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:15,160
Speaker 1: vulnerability as well, because instead of having to actively select

431
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 1: that you want to continue doing something. Think about like

432
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,880
Speaker 1: if your Facebook news feed was pageinated and you had

433
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,399
Speaker 1: to click, you had to keep clicking to the next

434
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 1: page instead of just constantly scrolling down for infinity time.

435
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 1: It's harder to make a decision to stop and change

436
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: what you're doing, or to make a decision to do something,

437
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: than it is to just continue your passive consumption experience

438
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 1: that's ongoing and unchanging. The next one, this is a

439
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 1: big one, instant interruptions. Does your phone wait and update

440
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 1: you about notifications in batches separated by a few hours, No,

441
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 1: of course not. I mean most of the time by

442
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,439
Speaker 1: default and there's gonna be differences between different devices and

443
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 1: apps and how they by default give you notifications, but

444
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 1: generally they're going to want, by default to say something

445
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 1: just happened right now, you need to check it immediately.

446
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,360
Speaker 1: It interrupts whatever you're doing to tempt you with an

447
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: intermittent variable reward, and then once it tem tempts you in,

448
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: you're in there. Yeah. Yeah, I've had to turn most

449
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 1: of those off because it seems like for a while,

450
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: I'd have like a major news organization app on my phone,

451
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 1: and uh, they would send me an update and I

452
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: think something important happened. I'd get kind of anxious about it,

453
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 1: or is this was there a nuclear explosion? Was there

454
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 1: some sort of terrible event that occurred? And then no,

455
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 1: it's a major sporting events score. Right. It's like I

456
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,400
Speaker 1: didn't even sign up for that. I that's but now

457
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 1: I'm interrupted by it and now I'm mad about it. Uh.

458
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: Two more Harris mentions are actually three more. Two I

459
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,719
Speaker 1: want to mention briefly. One is putting the most profitable

460
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: or attention grabbing part of the app between you and

461
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 1: the reason you opened the app. So it's like you

462
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 1: opened the Facebook app to check on an event or

463
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: to see a message or something. But it's gonna try

464
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: to route you through the news feed. Right, It's kind

465
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: of the gift shop kind of scenario exactly. Next thing

466
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: is increasing the friction and making choices that tech businesses

467
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: don't want you to make. So just making it more

468
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,679
Speaker 1: effort and more difficulty to unsubscribe or opt out of something.

469
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, my favorite is of course you cannot unsubscribe

470
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: through the app or the website. You have to call

471
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,919
Speaker 1: a number on a particular day, or how about the

472
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: ones that they make it? Uh, you have to opt

473
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 1: out to make your account private on something things are

474
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: public by default. You've got to go in and mess

475
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: with a bunch of toggling settings to keep people from

476
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: seeing the stuff you post. Finally, and this is what

477
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 1: I want to discuss in a little more depth. Harris

478
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,919
Speaker 1: points out that these apps and services use foot in

479
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 1: the door sales strategies. So, Robert, you've bought a car, right, yes,

480
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 1: And so if you've ever bought a car, you go

481
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 1: to the go to the car lot, salesperson is trying

482
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 1: to sell you on the car, and you'll know that

483
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: the salesperson makes all these kind of little bids for

484
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: your continued engagement that are at no cost to you, right,

485
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 1: and so they feel easy and no risk, like why

486
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: not just take a little test drive. I know you're

487
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 1: not ready to buy it. That's fine, you don't have

488
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 1: to do anything today. Just take a test drive. It's free,

489
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 1: it's low investment. Just take a few minutes, just see

490
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,919
Speaker 1: what it feels like and make you better inform your

491
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 1: decision ultimately. And then you do the test drive and

492
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,199
Speaker 1: you're like, okay, well I want to go think about it,

493
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: and they don't want to let you go. They want

494
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: to say, actually, you know, I know you need time

495
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: to think about it. That totally makes sense that we

496
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: don't want to force you to do anything, but I

497
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 1: do want you to come inside real quick and just

498
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: get something on paper so I can show you what

499
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 1: kind of deal we can put together for you that

500
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: will help inform your decision making. If you're looking at

501
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: some other cars, you see the same thing with so

502
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: many of these services where it's try it for seven

503
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: days if you like it, and then when you go

504
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 1: to unsubscribe, they're like, why didn't you like it? Is

505
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: it too expensive? And and maybe they'll say, well, I'll

506
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: tell you what. Try it off about that. You know

507
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 1: they'll throw some sort of deal or to say, how

508
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 1: about this, Maybe don't unsubscribe, Maybe just snooth just for

509
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,439
Speaker 1: a while, and you know you'll come back to it

510
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: a k. You'll forget about us, and then we'll charge

511
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 1: you for the service. Exactly right. But with the car salesperson,

512
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 1: what they're doing every time they make a little bid

513
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,719
Speaker 1: for your continued engagement is they're exploiting psychological vulnerabilities. They

514
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: know the more time you spend talking to them, and

515
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 1: if they can get you into a chair seated across

516
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 1: from them at a desk looking at a piece of paper,

517
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 1: their psychologically advancing you toward the sale, making it more

518
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: and more psychologically difficult for you to back out. Even

519
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: though you haven't committed to doing anything explicitly, you're becoming

520
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: more and more implicitly psychologically committed, and they just keep

521
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 1: doing that. They're always advancing the sale. And so many

522
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: of these social media apps work the same way. How

523
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: about Kenny tagged you in a photo click to see

524
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:50,719
Speaker 1: the photo. Well, you might be in the middle of

525
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: doing something, but if you get that notification, you're like, well,

526
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: I can look at a photo that just takes a

527
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: few seconds, so you click to see the photo. But

528
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: in Harris's words, quote, people don't intuitively forecast the true

529
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: cost of a click when it's presented to them, because

530
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: you think, click to see photo, that I'll just take

531
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 1: a few seconds. Okay, that's fine. I can invest those

532
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: few seconds and look at the photo. But then you're

533
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: in the app and all of the other stuff in

534
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: the app is there, and you could click on other

535
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: people or click to see more photos, or end up

536
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: back on the news feed, and it's pulling you in.

537
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: And that's how it works. They present you the idea

538
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: that will there will just be a quick little investment.

539
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 1: Instagram does stuff like this. You know, you want to

540
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: see one thing, You've got a message, or you were

541
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 1: tagged in a photo, there was something, just one little

542
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: thing you need to check, but then you're scrolling. Ultimately,

543
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 1: Harris ends the article by saying what we need our smartphones,

544
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: notification screens, and web browsers to be exo skeletons for

545
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: our minds and interpersonal relationships that put our values, not

546
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: our impulses first, And so he's advocating that we need

547
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: to read as in our technological landscape to make our

548
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: technology serve what we want out of life rather than

549
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: what's easy for us to do in the moment, because

550
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: what's easy for us to do in the moment is

551
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: so easily exploited by people who are not working in

552
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: our best interests. Yeah, obviously, you know, I was thinking

553
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: about this just the other day because, uh, Facebook actually

554
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: rolled out this little questionnaire. I don't know if you

555
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: received this as well, UH, asking you know, what can

556
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: we what can we do to make the world a

557
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: better place? What can we do to to to to

558
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 1: help the the product? Uh, make your life better? And

559
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: uh And you know, on one hand, I appreciated the outreach.

560
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 1: I'll be at a you know, a corporate technological outreach.

561
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: But in the other hand, I wanted to say, like,

562
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: I'm talking to a machine. You were not a person.

563
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: You were a corporation. You're a business, You're a technology.

564
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: And I know what technologies want. I know what corporations want,

565
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 1: and they are not necessar they're they are they almost

566
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: certainly not what I want. People think the wrong way

567
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: about the evil that gets done by like tech businesses

568
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: and stuff. They often think that like, oh, you've got

569
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: the snidely whiplash executives sitting up there thinking about how

570
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: to wreck people's lives, and that that's not what happens.

571
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 1: I mean, these businesses are like other businesses. They're full

572
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: of people who are mostly decent people who are just

573
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: trying to just trying to do a job and make

574
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: a business and make a product that works. And the

575
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: problem is with the incentives. The incentives in the structure

576
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: of the business. The business incentivizes captivating as much of

577
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: people's attention as possible. This is not presented to the

578
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 1: people who work in these businesses as an overtly evil

579
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: thing to do. It's presented in terms of things like engagement.

580
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: So we want to make the app engaging. You want

581
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 1: to make it something that people want to use. If

582
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: people are using your app a lot, doesn't that seem

583
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: like they're getting something out of it. I mean, you're

584
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: not forcing them to do it. They're doing it because

585
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: they want to. And so you can get locked into

586
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: this way of thinking about things without ever making the

587
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: decision to try to be evil and and upset people's

588
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: goals and hurt the quality of their lives. What's kind

589
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: of like with video game design, you know, you want

590
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 1: to make a really fun game, but then when the

591
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: response is, hey, I'm sorry, you made that game a

592
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: little bit too fun, it's making people sad. And well,

593
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 1: there are different ways to make a fun game. You

594
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: could make a fun game that people, when they were

595
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 1: done playing, felt good about the time they spent playing it.

596
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: They're like, I had fun, that was a fulfilling experience.

597
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: I don't regret it. You can also make a fun

598
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: game that when people are done they feel hollow and

599
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: regretful and aren't glad they spent their time that way. Well,

600
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: I'm always reminded of the old saying, uh, leave one,

601
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: they're wanting you to stay. That's I can count of

602
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 1: that all the time. With these big games like it.

603
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: I like a nice short game. Give me a four

604
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: hour game, a six hour game, one of those games

605
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: that online reviewers criticized for being too short, because that's

606
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: probably the right length. It's these big, open ided games

607
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: where it seems like you just play them till you're

608
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 1: sick of it. You like, this brings me no joy anymore,

609
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure why I'm playing it right now. Yeah,

610
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: it's an overabundance problem. There's too much supply of stimulating

611
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: game and actually not enough demand of attention, right, um,

612
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: and so I think this is a good way to

613
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 1: transition to something that we've both read that's pretty interesting.

614
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: It's an interview with another one of the co founders

615
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: of Time Well Spent whose a guy named James Williams,

616
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: a former Google employee as well, who started thinking trying

617
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: to become a technology ethicist, thinking about like how technology

618
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: can serve what we want out of life and serve

619
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: our values instead of just sucking our attention away in

620
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: these mindless activities. He actually wrote an essay called stand

621
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: Out of Our Light, and one exerpt from it is

622
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 1: that he pointed out the problem is that digital technologies

623
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: privilege our impulses over our intentions, and instead they should

624
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,719
Speaker 1: help us in achieving our intentions, not just satisfying what

625
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: we impulsively do when given the opera tunity. But he

626
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: talks about several things in this interview with Nautilus from

627
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 1: that I think are really interesting. One of them is

628
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 1: that Williams makes an appeal based on the economics of information.

629
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: So he says, like, we used to live in a

630
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: world in which information was scarce and attention was abundant,

631
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: it was hard to find things out. Sometimes it was

632
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: hard to entertain and stimulate your mind. Your local newspaper

633
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: was a critical information resource because in many, many cases

634
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 1: it was the only way you could find things out

635
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: about the world. And one way I like to think

636
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 1: about this difference over time is that people used to

637
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: talk all the time about being bored. To me, boredom

638
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 1: is a word in attention economics, terms of an attention surplus.

639
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: In an information scarce environment, you have attention to spend

640
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,760
Speaker 1: and nothing to spend it on. It's when the attention

641
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: economy is in a state of high demand and low supply.

642
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: Now we live in this completely opposite world where information

643
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: is more than abundant. Your news source, whatever that is,

644
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,879
Speaker 1: is not your news source because you it's the only

645
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: way you can learn about things. It's because it's your

646
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 1: preferred source among thousands or functionally infinite numbers of sources.

647
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 1: And the entertainment you turn to is not whatever is available.

648
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: It's not the one channel on your TV. It's what

649
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 1: you choose from a field of almost limitless options. Now

650
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 1: what scarce is not information, but the attention you have

651
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: to spend on it. And increasingly the role of information

652
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: sources is not to provide you with information which you

653
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 1: could access a thousand different ways, but to focus your

654
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 1: attention to let you know which pieces of information are true,

655
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: which are false, which are important, which are trivial. My

656
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: own observation is that I think people often prefer certain

657
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 1: news sources over others because they learn which ones will

658
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: make them feel good, yeah, which ones are going to

659
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 1: confirm their view of reality. Yeah. And so Williams goes

660
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: on to describe this modern technological economy, the attention economy

661
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 1: as quote a denial of service attack on the human will.

662
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 1: So a denial of service attack is something you see

663
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 1: in cybersecurity. It's when you get a bunch of computers

664
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: or something bombarding say a website or some kind of

665
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 1: user facing service, a website or a network, and they

666
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 1: they bombard it with so much traffic that it can't

667
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: serve itself to legitimate users. So you try to go

668
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: to the website and it won't load for you because

669
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 1: it's getting so many requests for loading from all of

670
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 1: these fraudulent, fraudulent bots and stuff like that. So a

671
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 1: denial of service attack on the human will is the

672
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 1: idea that there's so much coming at you and demand

673
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: making demands on your attention, you can't really spend your

674
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: attention intentionally. Yeah, I mean, it's the very real scenario

675
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: of decision fatigue. At the end of the day, you've

676
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 1: been you've made so many choices already, you cannot make

677
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 1: the simplest choice of, say, what do I want to

678
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: drink with my dinner? You know, it's like, I don't know,

679
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 1: it's fizzy water milk, but I cannot. I cannot extend

680
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 1: the willpower to make this one final choice. And uh,

681
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 1: you know he touches on some of this in the interview.

682
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: One of the quotes was that that stood out to me.

683
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,320
Speaker 1: They keep us looking and clicking. I think this wears

684
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: down certain capacities like willpower by having us to make

685
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 1: more decisions. And certainly we've covered decision fat dig on

686
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 1: the show before. We talked about multiple willpower experiments. Uh.

687
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 1: So many of them seem to involve chocolate cake. The

688
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 1: most delicious chocolate cake you've ever seen in your life,

689
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 1: by the way, Uh that they'll they'll show this to

690
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,760
Speaker 1: somebody and then they'll have to deal with some sort

691
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 1: of additional uh threat to their willpower additional decision challenge,

692
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: and so so the idea here is that we deplete

693
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: our video game esque willpower bar until we have no

694
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: more choice. Do we end up clicking on that ad,

695
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 1: eating that cake, or making a digital purchase? And I

696
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: find I find it rather interesting that we we take

697
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: for granted the ability to purchase items and have shipped

698
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: to us at any given moment, you know, right from

699
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:07,760
Speaker 1: our tiny pocket computers. There's this tremendous convenience in this, certainly,

700
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 1: but it also means that when you were at your weakest,

701
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: perhaps at the end of a long day, in the moment,

702
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: in a moment of foolish pride or drunken confidence, you

703
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: can simply finalize the purchase of just about anything within

704
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 1: just a few key strokes. It's usually treated as a

705
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 1: source of humor that people say, like, I got drunk

706
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 1: and bought X on Amazon, but I don't know that.

707
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 1: I mean, it is kind of funny, but it's also

708
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,280
Speaker 1: kind of not funny. Like you're you're in your house

709
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 1: and you have essentially like decreased your inhibitions to dangerously

710
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: low levels with the power to deplete your bank accounts

711
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 1: on frivolous purchases while you're doing this, and it need

712
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 1: not involve alcohol or any substance. It can just be

713
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: a matter of Yeah, at the end of the day,

714
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,439
Speaker 1: my willpower was beaten down enough that I decided that

715
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 1: I deserved that blue ray of screamers, and I simply

716
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 1: ordered it. Like it, Like your whole day is kind

717
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 1: of building up to that moment when you finally break

718
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: and give in to not only your your own desires,

719
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: but also the marketing that you are your your hit

720
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: with online. Another thing Williams points out that I think

721
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 1: is actually really worth considering is the way that the

722
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 1: media and attention economy landscape affects political values and changes

723
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: in society. Right. Yeah, here's another wonderful, uh slash horrifying

724
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: quote from the interview. Quote. Radio was a huge factor

725
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 1: in Hitler's rise to power. It's why he put one

726
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: in every house. I think that's an interest in comparison.

727
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:41,760
Speaker 1: Marshall mclewin, a Canadian media theorist, talked about this. He said,

728
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: when a new technology comes out and we still don't

729
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 1: know how to wrap our heads around it, there's an

730
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 1: initial period where our sensory ratios, our perception is re

731
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,760
Speaker 1: acclimating a kind of hypnosis moment. He makes the point

732
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: that the hypnotic effect of Hitler's style of oratory was

733
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 1: amplified by the hip and antic effect of this new media,

734
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: which is a type of information overload in people's lives. Yeah,

735
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 1: Williams makes this fascinating connection between the technological attention economy

736
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 1: and the recent resurgence of authoritarian populism. Right. So, the

737
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 1: idea is that technology trains us to live by impulse

738
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 1: battering down our long term gold driven and value driven

739
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: behavior one distraction at a time. And what does it

740
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: do to your brain when everything you really want to

741
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,720
Speaker 1: do with your time keeps getting interrupted by impulsively tempting

742
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,280
Speaker 1: digital candy. Does it make you complacent with the idea

743
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,839
Speaker 1: of impulsive decision making in other forms, even driving your

744
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 1: politics towards things that feel good in the moment, regardless

745
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,439
Speaker 1: of whatever you think is really right in the long

746
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: term or in terms of your moral values. This is

747
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 1: on top of the effect of you know, we haven't

748
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: even really touched on the idea of these platforms rewarding

749
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 1: certain types of information that are often very negative in

750
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:01,720
Speaker 1: their political consequences, like fake new is being more viral

751
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 1: on social media than real news. Yeah, conspiracy theories um

752
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 1: resonating with view with readers more than like a perhaps

753
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: a more stuffy breakdown of what we we do know

754
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: and what we don't know. Right, Okay, well, I think

755
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 1: we should take a break and then when we come back,

756
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: we will discuss options for how to fight back against

757
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 1: this state of affairs. All right, we're back. Let's let's

758
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 1: get into it. What do what do we need to

759
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 1: do to aim our video drone cancer gun at the

760
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 1: TV screen that is threatening us? I don't know. I mean,

761
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: so there are several options we could look at broadly.

762
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 1: One of them is that we could hope the attention

763
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: monopolizers will realize what's going on and stop monopolizing our attention.

764
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: You know that they'll like Facebook and all these big

765
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: companies and Apple and Google. They'll say like, oh, people

766
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 1: aren't really getting the value that they want out of

767
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: all the time that they're spending with these apps and devices.

768
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll just make them less compelling so people go

769
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,399
Speaker 1: spend their time on other things. Let's make our our

770
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: game needs to be less fun because people are playing

771
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 1: it too much, and our product is because ultimately, the

772
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,320
Speaker 1: sad part about this idea is that we're not dealing

773
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 1: with people. We're dealing with corporations, which operate like machines.

774
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: They're full of people. People make them possible, and in

775
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: some case, in many cases, there is a particular creator involved,

776
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 1: but that creator is only a creator. They are no

777
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 1: longer the master. Yeah, the corporations are mobilized by market incentives.

778
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 1: And market incentives currently in like an ad supported and

779
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 1: data collection supported model of the technology sphere, are going

780
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 1: to incentivize for keeping you glued to the device or

781
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 1: stuck in the app. They want time on site, they

782
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,760
Speaker 1: want screen time, they want your eyeballs, they want attention

783
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,399
Speaker 1: because that's how they make money. Now, this does make

784
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 1: you wonder, well, what if they had a different way

785
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: of making money? Could things change? Then? Like what if

786
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:08,359
Speaker 1: technology largely turned to a paid subscriber model rather than

787
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: an advertising supported model. Then if it didn't matter how

788
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 1: much time you spent in an app or on a device,

789
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: would everything be okay then? Because then they wouldn't be

790
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 1: nearly as incentivized to keep you using it. To the

791
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: Netflix problem, right, that's a paid subscriber thing. But you

792
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 1: notice Netflix introduces things that seem like they're geared to

793
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 1: keep you in the app, even though it's a paid

794
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: subscriber model. What is what's causing that? Like the AutoPlay functionality,

795
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: the thing on Netflix where it starts playing a movie

796
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: even though you didn't click on it. Why does it

797
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 1: do that? I think there are maybe a couple of

798
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 1: reasons for this. One is that how much time a

799
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: user spins on an app is somewhat predictive of whether

800
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 1: they'll keep subscribing to it. So, even on a subscriber model,

801
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:58,399
Speaker 1: if you don't watch, you might unsubscribe. So they want

802
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:00,760
Speaker 1: you to watch so you'll feel like you're getting value

803
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 1: out of the app and stay a subscriber. It's one

804
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:05,239
Speaker 1: thing to get the get you to binge watch one show,

805
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,399
Speaker 1: they want you to binge watch multiple shows. They want

806
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 1: you to subscribe next month as well. Yeah, because if

807
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 1: you realize, hey, I'm never using Netflix, you probably want

808
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 1: to subscribe, right. Another thing is that the more you

809
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 1: use an app, the more data the app can gather

810
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: about you, and that data is worth money. If not

811
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 1: externally then certainly internally. What kind of shows are resonating

812
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,280
Speaker 1: with our average view or the certain demographics of viewers,

813
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,720
Speaker 1: certain demographics of subscribers. Okay, so that's the first option,

814
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,320
Speaker 1: hope they'll stop monopolizing our attention. That doesn't seem super likely.

815
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 1: Maybe would work a little bit better if there was

816
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 1: more subscription and less ad driven support for digital content,

817
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 1: but not clear. The second option is maybe we can

818
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: hope that attention monopolizers will shift to monopolizing our attention

819
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: with things that are truly fulfilling rather than things that

820
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 1: leave us feeling unhappy, regretful, and hollow. I mean, think

821
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 1: about this way. What if there was something that was

822
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 1: as impulsively addictive as your favorite social media app that

823
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: you spend hours just mindlessly wandering through, but it made

824
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: you feel as fulfilled as the stuff you really care

825
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,240
Speaker 1: about doing. Like it it was full of intellectually stimulating

826
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: information and stuff that made you feel like, I'm really

827
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 1: getting value out of this, this is what I want

828
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 1: to be doing with my time. Sounds like you're describing

829
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,399
Speaker 1: stuff to blue your mind dot contract. I mean that's

830
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 1: actually what we hope. Like we are digital content creators,

831
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 1: we hope people will consume our content. But I hope,

832
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't get the sense based on our

833
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 1: contact with listeners, that people consume us just mindlessly and

834
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,879
Speaker 1: then they're really regretful later. I hope that's not the case.

835
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 1: What we're what we hope is that we provide value

836
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 1: in people's lives. That increasingly we have the thing. I mean,

837
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: it sounds a little bit tacky to put it in

838
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 1: these these terms, but increasingly we can't just market the

839
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:57,879
Speaker 1: website and say, go check out this website. It has

840
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:00,359
Speaker 1: our content on it. Uh, it has to go through

841
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:03,439
Speaker 1: something like Facebook. Facebook is the way that people get

842
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 1: to your content. Yeah. Yeah, And so we we in

843
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 1: these episodes by saying, like check us out on social media.

844
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 1: Isn't that ironic? But I mean, like that is. That's

845
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 1: sort of like if you've got a store that's in

846
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 1: the mall, and you you think it's good for people

847
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 1: to come to your store because you think we have

848
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 1: really good products and people get a lot of value

849
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:23,839
Speaker 1: out of coming to our store, but they do have

850
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:25,879
Speaker 1: to walk through the mall to get to us. Yeah,

851
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,359
Speaker 1: and maybe they have to walk by six competitors who

852
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 1: are willing to pay for better better positioning within the all.

853
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,280
Speaker 1: I mean you see that all the time. Yeah, So anyway,

854
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:37,720
Speaker 1: can we hold out hope for the fact that maybe

855
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 1: maybe everybody will try to do it more like this,

856
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 1: that all these apps and these platforms and everything will

857
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 1: will focus on making their experience something that's deeply fulfilling

858
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 1: and aligned with people's goals. I think we can't just

859
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: assume anything like this will happen. We can't hold out

860
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 1: hope for that. One thing I want to mention is

861
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 1: that there was an example of an announcement along these

862
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 1: lines earlier this year. Mark Zuckerberg claimed on a public

863
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 1: post on January elevenen that quote, one of our big

864
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 1: focus areas inen is making sure that the time we

865
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: all spend on Facebook is time well spent. So he's

866
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: even using the tagle the phrase time well spent. It

867
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: sounds like he's been influenced by Tristan Harris and these

868
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 1: other people who are making this argument right. And the

869
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 1: main way he says, Facebook is going to do this

870
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 1: by altering the news feed algorithm to reduce the amount

871
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 1: of stuff people see from pages and publishers and increasing

872
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 1: what people see from friends and family. And this works

873
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: on the assumption that people like spending time seeing posts

874
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 1: and comments by people they know, and this will leave

875
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 1: them feeling less regretful than if they were seeing posts

876
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 1: by you know, check out our insane videos, or by

877
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:49,280
Speaker 1: a podcast that they listened to. Say so, to his credit,

878
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 1: Zuckerberg acknowledged in the post he said, now, I want

879
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 1: to be clear. By making these changes, I expect the

880
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: time people spend on Facebook and some measures of engagement

881
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 1: will go down, but I expect the time you do

882
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 1: spend on Facebook will be more valuable. So if we

883
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 1: take him at this word here he's it sounds like

884
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: he's trying to say, I want to make my product

885
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: something that people get value and meaning from in their lives,

886
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,279
Speaker 1: something that is more fulfilling to them. I don't know

887
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 1: if the strategy will work. I mean, who knows what

888
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 1: the real motives are. I mean, I try not to

889
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 1: be super cynical about things, but there could be a

890
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 1: lot of messaging reasons for putting up a post like this.

891
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 1: But I don't know if this will actually make things

892
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: all that much better. And then, on top of that,

893
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 1: even if it did make things better, the business incentive

894
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: for companies generally to do things like this is not there.

895
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: Like apparently, when Zuckerberg announced this on the post, Facebook

896
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,840
Speaker 1: shares went down four. Yeah, because he might be the

897
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 1: monster's creator, but he is no longer the monster's master.

898
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 1: He can't dictate the hunger of this beast, at least

899
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 1: not for long. And I just keep coming back to

900
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 1: the idea of what does the corporation want? And not

901
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 1: just a finite and fixed thing either. We're talking that

902
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 1: the this is a beast that swells and shrinks as

903
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,760
Speaker 1: necessary to survive the changing demands of its economic, political,

904
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 1: and social environment. It's a monster that wants nothing short

905
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 1: of complete consumption and endless digestion of you, your loved

906
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,760
Speaker 1: ones in every generation to follow. It's the hungry, jealous

907
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 1: god that we could only dream of an ages past.

908
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:25,799
Speaker 1: I want to start applauding, but it would sound kind

909
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: of sad if it's just one person applauding. So imagine

910
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 1: the crowd applauding. Yeah, Okay, Well, I'm being a little

911
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 1: negative and cynical about the whole thing. But if it's

912
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 1: a monster, maybe the creator can't control it. But if

913
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,399
Speaker 1: I know anything about monster movies is that a hero

914
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,239
Speaker 1: can sometimes slay it or drive it away. Right, you

915
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 1: gotta take defensive measures. So that's what we should talk about.

916
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:50,240
Speaker 1: What can you literally do to protect yourself against having

917
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: your attention gobbled up by all of these digital slot machines.

918
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 1: One way you can protect yourself, of course, would be

919
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 1: to delete apps or block website that you discover are

920
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,360
Speaker 1: making you unhappy or making you spend your time in

921
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 1: a way you later regret. But that's not always practical,

922
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 1: is it. Like some people us included, need to use

923
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 1: social media apps for work, and sometimes you want to

924
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: have the option to stay connected to friends and receive

925
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 1: messages from family through social media, even though you don't

926
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 1: want to spend your time being mindlessly hypnotized through a

927
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: flow of content from it. Right, So, if you want

928
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 1: to still have access to these apps and platforms, but

929
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 1: to make them less effective at hijacking your mind and

930
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 1: gobbling up your attention, the Center for Humane Technology recommends

931
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 1: a few steps specific to mobile devices that will help

932
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:41,240
Speaker 1: make them less addictive and less able to hijack your attention.

933
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:45,320
Speaker 1: The first one, turn off notifications if you haven't already

934
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: done this basically, unless it's something you really care about

935
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 1: knowing immediately when it happens, maybe like direct messages from

936
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 1: human beings, turn them off. Don't let that just go

937
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 1: to your phone whenever somebody at mentions you on Twitter

938
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 1: or whatever. Because the notifications or the foot in the

939
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,839
Speaker 1: door strategy, right, I can check that one notification. Not

940
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 1: only are they distracting, but they get you in there

941
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 1: and then they try to push you towards the sale

942
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 1: of let's get a couple hours from you on this app.

943
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 1: Another thing, this is a pretty interesting appeal. They say,

944
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 1: switch your phone to gray scale display in I didn't

945
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: even know that was an option. Yeah, get rid of

946
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 1: the colors. Apparently you can go into the settings on

947
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:26,719
Speaker 1: some phones and turn off the color so you just

948
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 1: see your phone in black and white or in gray scale. Well,

949
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:33,319
Speaker 1: you can toggle it off and on right, So if

950
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 1: you want to watch a movie or look at a

951
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 1: photo or something like that, you could turn the color

952
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 1: back on. But if you generally have it in gray scale,

953
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:44,440
Speaker 1: app designers are carefully they've carefully researched how to use

954
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 1: color to arouse your attention and reward seeking behaviors. And

955
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 1: if you switch your phone to gray scale, it will

956
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 1: have less power to lasso your brain with like red

957
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 1: flag notifications and stuff. Another thing they suggest, sort your

958
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 1: shortcuts on the phone. You've usually got like a series

959
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 1: of screens. You got a home screen, you swipe over

960
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 1: to other screens, and then you've got shortcuts that gets

961
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: you into your apps. You can choose where to put

962
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 1: the shortcuts and move them around. Right, So, when you

963
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 1: open your phone on your home screen, are the apps

964
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 1: that drain your attention the most efficiently? Are they right

965
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 1: there on the home screen? Maybe you should put them

966
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 1: in a place that's harder to reach, like sort them

967
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 1: into a secondary screen, or or just deeper than that,

968
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 1: like like store them six sudden folders deep and in

969
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 1: a prison of your smartphone. Right, so you really have

970
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:35,919
Speaker 1: to make a decision that you're going to go into

971
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 1: the app. You don't just mindlessly open it every time

972
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 1: you unlock your phone. You know, I did something like

973
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:45,320
Speaker 1: this for a while with with one of my social

974
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:48,879
Speaker 1: media apps. I deleted the app, but I I still

975
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 1: could access it through the browser, so it didn't keep

976
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 1: me from checking it, but it made it just a

977
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 1: little more difficult for me to do it, and it

978
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 1: it seemed to help, at least for a while. A

979
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 1: big thing, going back to our first episode here, that

980
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 1: I would recommend is putting your phone in a different

981
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:08,280
Speaker 1: room whenever you can when you're in bed. Don't charge

982
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,319
Speaker 1: your phone right beside the bed. Charge your phone in

983
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 1: a different room in the house. When you're reading, or

984
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,440
Speaker 1: trying to do some work, or trying to watch a movie,

985
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 1: trying to do anything else that you just want to

986
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 1: devote your attention to. Don't put your phone beside, you

987
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:23,760
Speaker 1: put your phone somewhere else. It's it's a nice idea,

988
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 1: but that then you get into issues of like, well,

989
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 1: don't I need the phone next to my bed if

990
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,279
Speaker 1: there's an emergency, or like for me, I use my

991
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 1: phone to play white noise every evening, so I become addicted.

992
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,800
Speaker 1: I'm granted I could get a white noise machine and

993
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 1: and uh and get around that. Well, I mean it's

994
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 1: a question of do you find yourself having a problem.

995
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 1: I mean, if you just use it to play white

996
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 1: noise and that's helpful to you, then that's fine. Actually,

997
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 1: then the device is working the way it should work,

998
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:52,359
Speaker 1: the way that it's good for it to work. It's

999
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,280
Speaker 1: helping you get what you want. But if you find

1000
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 1: that by having it there, you tend to open it

1001
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 1: and you tend to start looking at stuff that's gobbling

1002
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:02,920
Speaker 1: up your time and attention in a way that you

1003
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 1: later regret. That's when the problem comes and maybe it

1004
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 1: should be playing white noise. But on the other side

1005
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 1: of the ring sort of thing. Maybe there are also

1006
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 1: a lot of apps that are designed essentially as defensive

1007
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 1: weapons against the addictive power of the other apps. Right,

1008
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 1: Like we mentioned that one earlier moment that tracks what

1009
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 1: apps you use and shows you so you can be aware.

1010
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 1: But there are a bunch of apps that do stuff

1011
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 1: like this. There are apps that block your access to

1012
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 1: certain websites, so you say, actually, I don't want to

1013
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 1: be able to go to Twitter dot com within the

1014
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 1: next few hours or something like that. Uh, And then

1015
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 1: there are more recommendations you can look up if you

1016
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 1: go to the Center for Humane Technology website. But we

1017
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 1: should point out that these are mundane and specific defenses

1018
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 1: against certain types of attention attacks from our current generation

1019
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:54,720
Speaker 1: of personal devices. They don't really address the larger problem

1020
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 1: that we live in an economy that incentivizes companies to

1021
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 1: get as much of our attention as they can. They've

1022
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 1: come up with really smart, really effective strategies for doing this,

1023
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 1: and their strategies for doing this are only going to

1024
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 1: get better over time and They infect so many areas

1025
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 1: of everyday life that it's difficult to escape them without

1026
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 1: cutting yourself off from mainstream technological society. I think one

1027
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 1: of the more painful things about this whole scenario is

1028
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:22,800
Speaker 1: that I feel like the more people grow up with

1029
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 1: within this world, uh, you know, the more they don't

1030
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 1: know what it's like to live without this current level

1031
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 1: of over stimulation and hyper choice and decision fatigue. For instance,

1032
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:37,440
Speaker 1: in my family, we limit my son's scream time as

1033
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 1: much as possible, but we we do let him watch

1034
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 1: educational shows, play educational games. But we wonder sometimes if

1035
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 1: he truly knows what it's like to be bored. And

1036
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 1: even though you hear kids still use the word board,

1037
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:53,240
Speaker 1: they still talk about being bored. But do they really

1038
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 1: know what it's like to be left with only your

1039
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:58,799
Speaker 1: own thoughts to entertain you and pass the time? Are

1040
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:02,480
Speaker 1: they left with depleted skills for reaching out into the

1041
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:05,319
Speaker 1: real world around them or the inner world of imagination

1042
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:08,240
Speaker 1: to pass the hours of the day. I do worry

1043
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:11,760
Speaker 1: about this. I sometimes think about how I'm never bored anymore.

1044
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 1: I remember being bored when I was a kid, but

1045
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 1: now I've always got ten thousand things to do that

1046
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:20,359
Speaker 1: I haven't gotten to yet, and I can access them

1047
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 1: at pretty much any time. So I mean, I just

1048
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 1: never really experienced boredom. There's always like something I could

1049
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:30,520
Speaker 1: be working on, something I could be reading, something I

1050
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:32,759
Speaker 1: could be getting to that I've meant to get to,

1051
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 1: and boredom might be important. That might be an important

1052
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:40,239
Speaker 1: cognitive space, something that matters for our cognitive health and development.

1053
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:44,919
Speaker 1: What about larger institutional changes though, Yeah, that's something we've

1054
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:48,360
Speaker 1: got to think about. So here's one thing. Some governments

1055
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:51,920
Speaker 1: regulate the design of slot machines, right, which are brilliantly

1056
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 1: created techno drugs that are addictive that serve the function

1057
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:57,879
Speaker 1: of draining people of as much money as possible, getting

1058
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 1: them to play to extinction. Could we also regulate the

1059
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 1: addictive properties of techno drugs designed to drain us of

1060
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:07,880
Speaker 1: as much attention as possible, to play to extinction of

1061
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 1: our attention? Should the government regulate the way things can

1062
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 1: hijack our attention? I'm not saying necessarily should, but it's

1063
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 1: worth considering that the costs and benefits. I want to

1064
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 1: read another exerpt from that James Williams essay, where he

1065
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 1: mentions what we can do about this, He says, quote, First,

1066
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:29,919
Speaker 1: we must reject the impulse to ask users to just

1067
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 1: adapt to distraction. We must also move briskly past the

1068
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 1: illusion that media literacy will ever be enough. Nor can

1069
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 1: we reply that if someone doesn't like the choices on

1070
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 1: technologies menu, the only option is to unplug or detox.

1071
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:48,640
Speaker 1: This is a pessimistic and unsustainable view of technology. And

1072
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 1: of course we can't expect the attention economy to fix itself.

1073
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:55,800
Speaker 1: We must then move urgently to assert and defend our

1074
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:59,280
Speaker 1: freedom of attention. So he ends up advocating essentially that

1075
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:03,480
Speaker 1: we need to create a discipline of studying freedom of

1076
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:06,600
Speaker 1: attention in order to come up with the right uh,

1077
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 1: the right philosophy, the right framework, in the right terms

1078
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:12,840
Speaker 1: in which to discuss this problem, so that it's not

1079
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 1: just something that a few people in the technology ethics

1080
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 1: sphere are observing, but that it becomes a part of

1081
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:22,280
Speaker 1: our moral philosophy, or even just a part of like

1082
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 1: in the same sense that a medication has to pass

1083
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:30,480
Speaker 1: various trials and become approved by a governmental body before

1084
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 1: it can be actually used as a treatment measure, to

1085
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:36,440
Speaker 1: what extent should we get into a situation where an

1086
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 1: app or some other kind of program or social media

1087
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 1: and interface has to be cleared. It has to meet

1088
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:46,000
Speaker 1: certain thresholds of acceptability. I mean, it is difficult because

1089
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:50,080
Speaker 1: the ways in which these technological innovations hurt us are

1090
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:54,439
Speaker 1: not ways that are acute and easy to identify. It's

1091
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 1: not like they caused us to be to become sick,

1092
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:01,160
Speaker 1: or they caused us to die in the show term. Instead,

1093
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 1: what they're doing is depriving us of the attention and

1094
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 1: will to get what we want out of life. And

1095
00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 1: this is something that only gets recognized in the large

1096
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 1: scale over long periods of time. Yeah, until suddenly you're

1097
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:16,840
Speaker 1: in a situation where you have to wage a Buttlerian

1098
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 1: jihad against the machines. Right, Well, that that is a

1099
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:22,160
Speaker 1: brilliant idea. So it goes back to the idea and

1100
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:25,040
Speaker 1: Dune that you know there there was, ultimately, at some

1101
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:28,000
Speaker 1: point in the past history of the Dune sci fi universe,

1102
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:31,400
Speaker 1: a war between humans and machines, not all machines, but

1103
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 1: thinking machines, machines that were too smart and that had

1104
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 1: hurt humanity's own sense of itself by recreating sort of

1105
00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 1: humans and the image of a machine because they had

1106
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 1: created machines and the image of humans. Yeah, And I

1107
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 1: think the jihad aspect is key here because you know,

1108
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:53,680
Speaker 1: people who are maybe not familiar with the the the

1109
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:55,960
Speaker 1: Islamic use of the term, you might just think jihad

1110
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 1: is war, jihad is some sort of violent act, But

1111
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:03,080
Speaker 1: jahad means a struggle against depression and it it can,

1112
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 1: it need not be an actual struggle of physical violence

1113
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:10,320
Speaker 1: of forms. Yeah, So, I mean, I don't think it's

1114
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:14,520
Speaker 1: it's unrealistic or overwrought to think of our struggle against

1115
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 1: UH attention fatigue and the design of these various devices

1116
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:23,000
Speaker 1: as being a sort of job and to think of

1117
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 1: it as a form of oppression. Now that being said,

1118
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:29,320
Speaker 1: obviously there's a lot of very real oppression going on

1119
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:31,880
Speaker 1: in the world that is UH, that is beyond the

1120
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 1: scope of mere smartphones. But then it's not like there's

1121
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:39,440
Speaker 1: there's no interplay between the two because our our devices

1122
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:41,760
Speaker 1: are apps. We're talking about news feedes, we're talking about

1123
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:46,640
Speaker 1: political movements, we're talking about um social energy that does

1124
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 1: impact actual physical oppression in the world and our understanding

1125
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:54,480
Speaker 1: of it, our knowledge of it, and our opinions of it. Yeah, exactly,

1126
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:56,440
Speaker 1: So there are two things that I'm trying to juggle

1127
01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:58,280
Speaker 1: in my mind right now, and one of them is

1128
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 1: this is a thing Tristan Harris points out, is that

1129
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 1: we need to reject the myth that technology is always

1130
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 1: just a neutral tool that you can use how you

1131
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:12,840
Speaker 1: want it. Technologies have content, and sometimes the content of

1132
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:16,200
Speaker 1: the technology has a net positive or negative effect on

1133
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:19,560
Speaker 1: us that's intrinsic to the technology itself. You can't just

1134
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 1: wave your hand and say, well, well, technology is always

1135
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:25,600
Speaker 1: just neutral, it's how you use it. Some technologies really do.

1136
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:28,960
Speaker 1: They really are made in a way that gives us

1137
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:31,160
Speaker 1: things other than what we want, or affects us in

1138
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:33,640
Speaker 1: a way that we ultimately view as negative. But the

1139
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:35,920
Speaker 1: other side of this is that we don't have to

1140
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:40,240
Speaker 1: be technophobic. We don't have to say that technology necessarily

1141
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:45,000
Speaker 1: is bad or necessarily hurts us. Technology in general could

1142
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:47,200
Speaker 1: serve our best needs. It could be a thing that

1143
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:49,880
Speaker 1: helped us get exactly what we want out of life

1144
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:52,840
Speaker 1: instead of subverting what we want to get out of life. Right,

1145
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:56,000
Speaker 1: And I guess it's part of our job to think

1146
01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:58,520
Speaker 1: about like how we can each individually work to try

1147
01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:01,240
Speaker 1: to shape the world we even and the technosphere we

1148
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:05,240
Speaker 1: occupy to be more like that. To to to steer

1149
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:09,640
Speaker 1: it towards a you know, a positive feedback loop with

1150
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:13,120
Speaker 1: our own goals and desires and dreams and and interests,

1151
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:17,760
Speaker 1: rather than a place of perverse incentives that drives us

1152
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 1: towards mindless consumption. Yeah, to to use it as a tool,

1153
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:23,680
Speaker 1: to keep it as a tool, and to sort of

1154
01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 1: maintain it, to cultivate it as a tool. Alright, So

1155
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:30,280
Speaker 1: there you have it, UH fight the power, I suppose

1156
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:33,760
Speaker 1: hopefully in this episode, we you know, we we laid

1157
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:36,680
Speaker 1: some kind of harrowing facts on you, but I think

1158
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:40,320
Speaker 1: we also provided some hope, We provided some tips, and

1159
01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:42,640
Speaker 1: we would love to hear from everyone out there about

1160
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:45,040
Speaker 1: you know, for instance, how how it how it goes

1161
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:46,800
Speaker 1: when you start applying some of these tips to your

1162
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:50,360
Speaker 1: own use of social media and various devices in your life,

1163
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 1: or if you have additional tips, additional strategies that you've

1164
01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:57,640
Speaker 1: come across, additional thoughts on the on the topic in general. Um.

1165
01:02:57,680 --> 01:02:59,200
Speaker 1: In the meantime, head on over to stuff to Blow

1166
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:00,680
Speaker 1: your Mind dot com if we will find all the

1167
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:03,680
Speaker 1: podcast episodes as well as linked out to those social

1168
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:07,760
Speaker 1: media accounts and uh big thanks as always to our

1169
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:11,320
Speaker 1: excellent audio producers Alex Williams and Tory Harrison. And if

1170
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 1: you want to get in touch with us directly but

1171
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:15,520
Speaker 1: let us know feedback on this episode or any other,

1172
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:18,200
Speaker 1: to suggest topic for the future, or just to say hi,

1173
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:21,080
Speaker 1: or to tell us your personal story, you can email

1174
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:24,040
Speaker 1: us at blow the Mind at how stuff works dot

1175
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:36,120
Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics.

1176
01:03:36,240 --> 01:04:00,120
Speaker 1: Does it how stuff works dot com? No,