WEBVTT - How to Work with Someone You Hate 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:02.320 When it comes to work, there's plenty of things to 0:00:02.320 --> 0:00:07.520 annoy us, the open office plan, long commutes, too many emails. 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:10.039 But for a lot of people, the most annoying part 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:13.800 of the workplace is other people. But we all have 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:16.120 to get along. So how do you deal with people 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:30.960 you hate at work? This is game plan. Hi. I'm 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:34.440 francesco Leavie and I'm Rebecca Greenfield. And this week we 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:37.400 are going to talk about everyone we hate at the office. 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:40.320 Just kidding, we're not, but we are. We are going 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:43.480 to talk about some of the types of people that 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:47.879 it's easy to become enemies with at work. Um. And 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:52.120 before we get into it, I have a disclaimer. We 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:56.720 uh interview a guest this week whose book title has 0:00:56.760 --> 0:00:59.160 a profane word in it, and we can't really talk 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:01.240 about the book without using the words, so we're going 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:03.639 to use it a lot. So maybe this isn't want 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:06.080 to listen to with kids. Let's start with why we 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:09.120 end up hating people at work. I think work as 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:13.360 a microcosm for society as a whole. You know, you 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:16.560 have a group of people thrown together and we all 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:20.520 have to exist together, and inevitably their only conflict. Yeah, 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:22.560 and I think though in other parts of your life 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:25.120 you do have a little bit more choice in who 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:27.880 you're in that society with. So, like I mean, I 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:30.479 mentioned at the very top the open office, but that's 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:33.520 like a little powder keg in its own way, because 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:36.960 everybody's sort of really in each other's face. You can 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:39.039 see everyone, you can hear everyone, and then it's the 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:42.640 people that you're around there. Ideally they're selected for how 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:45.000 good they are at their jobs, not necessarily how well 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:48.960 they get along with you. Yeah, it almost seems like 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:54.760 the workplace is designed for maximum annoyance with people. Yeah. Yeah, 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:57.120 and then you throw in, you know, some work stress. 0:01:57.240 --> 0:01:59.320 Sometimes you have long hours, you might have to work 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:01.480 on a project with when and it's just like too 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:06.000 much contact, stressful situations and people who are all different 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:08.440 personality types and might not get along, or you're competing 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:12.959 interests and agendas that might contradict someone else's. Yeah, that 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:16.080 goes to your like microcosm of society theory. It's like 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:19.359 a little feudal land where everyone's trying to advance their 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:22.360 own kingdom. That reminds me of like the Leviathan or 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:26.480 something I was going to say, a Game of Thrones, 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:30.600 but yeah, no, no, no, literary I like it. So 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:33.480 you develop coping strategies for dealing with people you don't like, 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:35.919 or you should. I mean, I don't know how good 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:37.960 I am at it, but one thing I tend to 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:42.760 do is vent. Do you find venting helpful? I am 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:46.200 a master ventor? Yeah? I mean do you vent to 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:49.160 people in your personal life or just like other people 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:51.920 at work about the people that you both don't like? 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:55.240 Or it's hard because to vent to people at work, 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:58.640 you have to know where their allegiances are. You know, 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:01.160 you have to feel out if it's okay to gossip 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:04.799 with them about the person near you who you think 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:07.960 is evil. But once you what, Once you do do 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:10.839 that and you've like caught their you know, I roll 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:12.680 at the meeting and you feel like it's kind of 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:15.240 safe to talk to them. I feel like often for 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:18.280 me venting at work, it starts out good because it's like, oh, 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:20.839 finally I found somebody who agrees with me that this 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:24.639 person is really annoying in meetings. But then you can 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:27.079 go so far with it that it becomes like that 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:29.840 becomes your whole relationship with that person that all you 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:32.280 ever do is complain about people and then suddenly there's 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:35.960 like a negative tinge to it. Yes. Um. And of 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:39.960 course there's research on gossiping at work and it's kind 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:42.960 of mixed. Um. Some of it has found that gossiping 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:45.120 can be good for the workplace, which makes me feel 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:48.000 a lot better because like I'm really you know, participating 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:50.320 in work and making it a better place. But one 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:53.160 of those studies looked at how gossiping can be good 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:56.480 if it's a way to increase information flow in an 0:03:56.560 --> 0:03:59.960 organization where there isn't very much so like your manager 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:03.880 isn't doing a good job communicating things to you. If 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.520 the underlings gossip about it, it can make it a 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:10.640 better workplace. Oh that sounds sort of sad. Yeah, it's 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:13.640 like it's good in bad workplaces. The places where the 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:17.760 gossip is bad is where employees are so cynical about 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:21.279 work that all they do is gossip and it can 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:24.440 harm their productivity, which I also feel. Yeah, I feel 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:27.279 like the first kind of gossiping, where it's like information sharing, 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:29.440 can can maybe lead to the second kind, like the 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:33.039 good kind can become of that kind. So gossiping is 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:36.520 not a catch all solution. Um. And also you probably 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:40.599 need different strategies for dealing with different types of enemies 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:42.839 at work. The worst person to not get along with 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:45.480 at work, I think is your boss, So you can 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:48.080 be a bad boss in a few ways. I find 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:52.280 it's really hard to deal with absentee managers. Like this 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:54.080 is something that sounds like it should be kind of 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:56.599 nice because it's like, oh, the cats away. You know, 0:04:56.880 --> 0:04:59.400 your boss doesn't care what you do, but actually it 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:01.480 can get in the way of projects getting done. It 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:03.440 can end up making you look bad. And it's like 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:05.400 when you have a boss who supposed to be helping 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:08.760 you understand what your job is and how well you're doing, 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:12.200 and they're not there for you in that way. It 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:16.200 just for me, it just makes me so frustrated and 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:20.440 kind of depressed. Yeah, I think having an absentee boss 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:23.560 makes you good at being an absentee employee, which is 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:26.320 could be nice sometimes, like if you want to take 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:28.479 a long weekend and not have anyone noticed, but it 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:31.799 doesn't make you good at work now. And most people 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:33.680 I think, like want to make something of their time 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:36.239 when they're at work. But then there's the complete opposite 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:40.680 of the absentee manager, and that's the micro manager um 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:42.920 which I don't think anybody likes like I've never heard 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:47.080 anybody say, like my ideal work environment to be micro managed. Um. 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:50.560 But to me, when people micro manage, when people just 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:52.880 like get in your business about every single thing you're doing, 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:55.400 it's a sign they don't trust you. And they also 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:58.120 it's a weird attitude to go into work with that, 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:01.680 Like all of the people who report to you are 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:03.920 kind of secretly trying to get one over on you, 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:05.960 you know, like they want to be laid on deadlines 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:07.919 and they want to you know, they're not acting in 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:10.200 good faith and they don't have good reasons for not 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:12.960 getting things done on time. And I'd rather just trust 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:15.359 people and occasionally be like, Okay, there's a thing that 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:17.520 you need to get better at. I was reading about 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:21.880 one workplace where micro managing was to the extreme. It 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:26.279 made me so uncomfortable. But the boss made his employees 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:28.040 tell them when they were going to lunch. He got 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:30.159 mad at them when they stepped away from their desks 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:35.000 or saw that their chat light went red. Um. But 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:38.800 also rewarded employees for ratting each other out and give 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:41.760 people five dollar bonus as for calling out bad behavior. 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:47.960 What that's exactly the kind of like untrusting environment that micromanaging. 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:50.520 So's I hate that that sounds terrible. But the two 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:53.560 types of bosses you're talking about fall into like the 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:57.839 two types of bad boss categories that UM researchers have found. 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:01.920 So there's like the dysfunctional bad boss, which I think 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:03.919 is kind of the absent team manager. It's like a 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:06.560 bad boss who's just bad at their job. And then 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:08.880 there's what they call the dark bad boss, which is 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:11.160 kind of like the evil bad boss, which to me 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:14.840 is kind of what the micro manager is ye machiavellian 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:18.640 or someone who has bad intentions, Like I think you 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:20.520 can solve a lot of those problems as a manager 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:22.440 by just feeling like you and your team are all 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:25.000 sort of working towards the same goal on a team. 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:27.760 On a team. So let's talk about some other kinds 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:31.360 of enemies or people we hate at work, because it's 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:33.480 not just your boss's, right, the people you work with 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:37.400 you also end up hating. Often. I have their kind 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:39.920 person who just likes everybody. I guess there are those 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:44.280 people I have a particular dislike for this one type 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:47.120 of person that I am going to call the trophy collector. 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:51.200 This is somebody who basically only does the work that 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:55.600 is the most visible, so will perform being good at work. 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:58.160 You know, we'll send out emails about all the great 0:07:58.160 --> 0:07:59.880 things they've done, or we'll do something if they know 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.480 it's going to get them accolades or if people in 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:06.000 in you know, higher up positions are going to notice it. 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:08.800 And those people also tend to kind of slack off 0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:11.360 on the work that's behind the scenes, because a lot 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:15.320 of getting real work done is doing stuff that goes 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:18.120 unrewarded and also helping out your colleagues. Like you see 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:20.280 somebody's underwater and you're just like, hey, I can take 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:22.520 that over for you. You're not going to necessarily get 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:25.160 praised for doing that. Your colleague might even get the credit, 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:28.080 but over time it sort of evens out and you 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:30.160 you're working in good faith. But these there's a certain 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:32.600 type of person where it's like it makes it even 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:35.680 worse that they don't do that because they're getting celebrated 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:38.080 for all of this really high profile stuff that they 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:40.560 are doing. When I've worked with people like that in 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:43.200 the past, it has driven me crazy. It kind of 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:46.280 reminds me of this advice that you see a lot online, 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:49.080 which is like nobody's going to remember you for the 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:52.000 emails you sent, like they'll remember you for the things 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:54.720 that your name is on. And I get that advice 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:56.480 where it's like, you know, don't you don't need to 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:59.040 put all of your work into writing emails. But it's 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:03.079 also like sometimes work that nobody sees as part of work, 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:06.880 and yeah, it sucks. It's like you have to be 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:09.000 a particular type of person who's willing to pick up 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:11.920 that work. But but you know, the office doesn't move 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:13.600 forward unless there are people who are willing to do 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:16.640 that invisible work. I don't like that person. So those 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:18.760 are some types of people that annoy us at work. 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:23.200 But what about the ultimate work enemy, the asshole? Like 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:27.640 this is a very broad and yes profane word. Uh, 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:29.720 that could mean a lot of things. So we want 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:33.079 to break down what we're talking about when we say 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:36.840 someone's an asshole and figure out how you can survive 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:43.120 working with them. So we consulted an expert. Bob Sutton 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:47.600 is a professor of organizational behavior at Stanford. He wrote 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:51.600 the widely acclaimed book The No Asshole Rule and just 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:57.839 came out with its follow up, The Asshole Survival Guide. 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:02.680 So let's jump right, and what is your definition of 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:07.199 an asshole? Oh, so, my definition of an asshole is 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:09.800 kind of at your ear and in your brain, not 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:13.880 at the other person's mouth or whatever. It's a it's 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:18.880 that feeling that someone has left you feeling uh demeaned, 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:24.679 de energized, uh disrespected, oppressed. They make you feel like dirt. 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:29.160 That's my definition. Yeah, so that sounds like a personal 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:33.400 upfront is what makes some it's very personal, yes, And 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:36.560 and the reason that I define it that way is 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:42.840 there's so many different behaviors in so many different organizational cultures. 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:47.400 Um that, um, what's bad behavior in one might be 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:51.040 good behavior in the other. So just let's just take interrupting. 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:55.360 There's some organizational cultures where you just stop and you 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:58.600 let the other person talk and you don't interrupt. And 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:01.640 then there's ones that are sort of crazy businesses type 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:03.520 where if you're not interrupting, you don't get in your 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:07.959 word edgewise. And so whether or not you're feeling hurt 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:11.520 is a big part of it. We could list behaviors 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:14.920 that are asshole behaviors. We could talk about there's different 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:18.000 kind of things that tend to set people off, but 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:21.000 but to me, owning your feelings is a big part 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:23.080 of it. It's a little bit in the eye of 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:26.560 the beholder. Um. You mentioned in your book that that 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:31.520 there's kind of a assholes finished first mythology. Where do 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:34.400 you think that came from? And and is there any 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:38.280 truth to it? Yes, there is, Um. I would start 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:41.000 with the headline that if you're an asshole and a winner, 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:43.440 you're still a loser in my book, because you're doing 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:46.720 so much damage to other people. The there's a very 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:49.679 specific kind of situation where people finish first if they 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:52.719 leave others feeling to mean, to deenergize when it's a 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:56.760 zero sum game, and and the way we play the 0:11:56.800 --> 0:11:59.840 game is by just stomping on others. So to use 0:11:59.880 --> 0:12:03.320 a examples of cultures, uh, the old Merrill Lynch culture, 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:07.080 the old Microsoft culture. That's how the game was played there. 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:11.800 But the problem is that's the way that individuals get ahead. 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:15.360 And all the evidence is that if you stomp on 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:18.040 others on the way to the top, you undermine the 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:22.679 performance of the people around you and your overall organization. 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:27.080 So sometimes winners do finish first, but they end up 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:31.320 running loser organizations and creating losers around them. You mentioned 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:34.560 that some things might make one person feel demeaned or 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:38.680 insulted or in another company just be the company culture 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:40.360 or the way people talk to each other. And it's fine. 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:43.600 So how do you, as an individual determine how bad 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:45.960 the problem is if you think you have a that's really, 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:50.720 um an interesting question. And by nature this is human psychology. 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:54.320 There's subjectivity to it. And uh, to me, there's the 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:57.319 cultural part and then there's the part that you sort 0:12:57.320 --> 0:12:59.840 of own. The cultural part we've already talked about is 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:02.440 that an insult in one culture is just everyday life 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:05.000 and the other and the other part is that some 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:10.600 of us are more thin skinned than others. The fact is, Uh, 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:12.640 my wife used to be managing partner of a large 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:15.160 law firm, and her advice is, uh, if you're going 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:17.400 to survive in a large law firm, you better have 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:20.120 a pretty thick skin because you're just not gonna make 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:22.199 it because people are gonna insult you, they're gonna ignore you, 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:23.880 your clients are gonna yell you. This is what it's 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:26.319 like being a large lawyer in a large law firm. 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:27.920 But I don't know if you were going to work 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:32.240 in a yoga studio. Such behavior might not be quite 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:35.240 as as I think that's why lawyers open yoga studios. 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:39.120 But that's another that's another side story. Um So, so 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:42.839 there's that part. And for me, the main way in 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:45.360 a lot of the problem when you have asshole problems 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:48.679 is to have people in your life who essentially can 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:51.080 tell you whether you're crazy or not in a lot 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:53.800 of ways, whether or not you have an asshole problem 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:55.800 and should do something about it. A lot of it 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:59.120 is having friends co workers around you who can help 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:01.240 you assess your souation. You should run it by your 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:04.680 your inner circle and make sure that you're you're checking 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:08.000 whether your feelings are accurate. Yeah, and and also it's 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:11.560 this notion that, um sometimes there's a problem where somebody 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:13.080 is treating you like dirt and they just hate you 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:16.880 and they're nice to everybody else, and I would call 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:20.160 that you've kind of got an interpersonal conflict problem. Or 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:22.880 one of the biggest problems is you've got an equal 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:26.280 opportunity asshole, or somebody who just doesn't like women, or 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:30.080 just doesn't like people who aren't white or something, And 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:33.160 then you've got a different sort of problem than if 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:35.640 it's just somebody who is out to get you, which 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:39.760 happens sometimes in life. You mentioned earlier though that there 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:43.800 are generic asshole behaviors. Can you get into some of 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:46.880 those things? I would break it into three categories. The 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:51.120 first category is open, kind of in your face, treating 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:53.840 you like dirt, so the flick cigarette or or calling 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:57.800 you an obscenity would do. The second backstabbing in the 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:00.960 book is a local Silicon Valley see Oh interviewed, and 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:04.600 he described how he had a grip. So what would 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:07.400 be is this guy, yes, boss, I'll do whatever you want. 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:10.440 That's a great idea, and then he would bad mouth 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:12.840 the boss and screw up the implementation of it and 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:16.000 then go blame somebody else. So so that's that kind 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:18.160 of asshole and and that requires a different kind of 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:21.440 situation because you kind of got to do recognizance um. 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:24.800 And then the third kind are people who treat you 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:28.040 as if you're a completely irrelevant object. Is if you're 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:31.240 part of the furniture. And and if you have a 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:33.400 boss or a co worker who just treat you like 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:37.480 you're invisible, that's actually really painful that you don't matter 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:40.840 at all. One of the solutions that you suggest in 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:44.440 your book is just to quit. And I wonder why. 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:46.880 I mean, it's not always possible to quit, but what 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:50.040 it is. Why does that solution not not seem available 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:52.400 to people? First of all, there's there are some people 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:55.680 who really can't quit. So one of the examples have 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:57.880 in the book is a woman who is clerking for 0:15:57.920 --> 0:15:59.760 a federal judge and was one year into a two 0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:02.080 year clerkship and she looked at her option that just 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:05.280 wasn't gonna work. But then there's the kind of people 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:10.960 who have are in denial. Next year, it'll get better. Um, 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:13.760 she's promised me she's gonna stop do it doing it 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:15.760 even though your boss has promised to you that she's 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:17.960 gonna stop screaming at you twenty five times? So why 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:21.040 would they stop the twenty six times? My favorite one? 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:23.760 And I'm one of mine. I just have to finish 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:27.920 this one project, and there's always another project. But Um, 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:31.440 the fact is that although I'm very careful to give 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:33.600 people the advice, my main advice about quitting is don't 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:36.160 be stupid, don't burn your bridges, and don't quit if 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:40.040 you can't feed your children or something like that. Um. 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:42.320 But um, the way I think about it is. It's 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:45.280 sort of like people say quitters should be punished, but 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:48.000 if somebody's hitting you with a hammer, maybe you should 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:49.720 walk away from it and not walk back into that 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:51.720 room where you're being hit with a hammer. So there's 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:53.920 a point where it might be time to quit. But 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:56.040 my motto is, don't be stupid about it. Try to 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:57.760 figure out what your options are, and don't burn your 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:00.960 bridges and less than necessary. I there are other coping 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:04.160 mechanisms that you said. Just before getting to the point 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:07.320 of quitting. There's lots of things you can do. So 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.119 there's one set of strategies that I call a distancing 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:13.280 or avoidance strategy. So to me, it's kind of like 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:16.919 the asshole ism is kryptonite and your goal is to 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:21.840 avoid as much exposure to it as possible. So leaving 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:25.720 meetings early would be an example. Uh. I don't buy 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:28.640 into the general notion that Steve Jobs was always an asshole. Nonetheless, 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:30.840 somebody told me who worked for him for years, that 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:32.960 he always would make sure not to sit next to 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:35.280 Steve during meetings or to get an elevator with him. 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:39.359 There's also one of my favorite techniques is uh I 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:42.800 call it the rhythm method, but it's the notion that, um, 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:44.600 if you've got some in your life who wants to 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:46.200 meet with you a lot and send you all these 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:49.800 emails and they're like really nasty, uh, that what you 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:52.960 do is you kind of meet as rarely as possible 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:57.000 and wait for those six or seven emails, wait maybe 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:58.560 a week or two in the answer them all at once. 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:01.400 And that as a couple of things when it reduces 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:04.440 your exposure. The other thing is, and we haven't talked 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:06.760 much about different sort of assholes, but there's a certain 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:10.159 type of assholes probably once of Mackabellian personality. If you 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:14.000 look at the research who they're not clueless. The reason 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:16.119 they treat you like dirt is that their their brain 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:18.880 lights up when they see you suffer. And if you've 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:21.680 got that sort of asshole like giving them less reinforcement, 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:24.560 it's just like giving a rap fewer pellets that at 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:29.520 least you're slowing the reinforcement. So so there's those kinds 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:32.879 and then there's a whole another set of of coping 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:36.400 mechanisms that are based on kind of cognitive behavioral therapy, 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:38.800 which is you can't change your environment, but you change 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:41.960 the way that you perceive it. So a couple of 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:46.080 quick examples. One of my favorite ones, which is evidence based, 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:50.040 is called temporal distancing, and what that means is when 0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:52.240 somebody is treating you like there. It could be a customer, 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:55.959 it could be a year into a two year internship. 0:18:56.560 --> 0:18:59.760 You imagine that, um, it's in the future, and your 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:01.840 look back on it, it's not so bad. So by 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:05.240 shifting time focus that helps. And then the other one 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:09.160 is finding some way to become more emotionally detached from 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:10.920 it so you kind of feel like you're not there. 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:13.320 One of my favorite stories one of my friends, her 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:17.439 name's Becky Margiotta, UM, and so Becky when she was 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:19.920 a first year plead at West Point. So if you 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:21.840 know west Point, they're gonna yell at you and hayes 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:25.320 you every day. And Becky's is the eighties, and yet 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:28.400 every day some upper classmen would walk up to her 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:30.639 and asked her what was on the front page of 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:32.200 the New York Times that day, and if she couldn't 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:34.119 recite it, she'd get screamed at and told how stupid 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:36.680 she was. And the way that she coped with it 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:41.280 was by imagining that these people were clever comedians and 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:43.840 she just thought they were so funny. So it was 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:46.080 sort of like watching a movie and not taking it personally. 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:48.920 And I thought that was brilliant. Those strategies are fascinating. 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:51.000 So much about how we work is just learning how 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:54.320 to not take things personally. Um, you have another strategy 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:58.560 that you you I think we're writing about in terms 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:02.760 of the type of asshole who treats you, like the 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:05.760 furniture that you mentioned earlier, which is hiding in plain sight? 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:09.360 Can you explain what that is? Ah? Well, so one 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:11.080 way to think about it, this is actually research on 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:14.880 t s A agents. And one of the things that 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:17.960 you'll do if there's you're in an asshole intensive environment 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:20.440 and let's going through the security screening might be it's 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:25.200 a very asshole intensive environment. And sometimes in those situations, 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:27.760 you just don't want to be noticed, so you're sort 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:30.080 of the strategy is to sort of embrace if there's 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:33.280 a if there's a neglectful manager, say, the strategy is 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:36.240 sort of to embrace not being noticed because you might 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:41.520 be in for worse. Absolutely, um And and that's also 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:43.640 one of the classic things. And I don't know they've 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:45.480 been in a workplace like this, but I have where 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:48.840 part of the executive assistance job is to tell you 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:51.280 when the boss is coming and whether the boss is 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:54.680 in a bad mood or not. And under those situations, 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:56.560 you just want to be at your desk and not 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:59.200