1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercam. I'm a mother of four, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger. 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:10,960 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of two and soon to be three 4 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:14,159 Speaker 1: and a practicing physician. We are two working parents who 5 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 1: love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of 6 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode seventeen where we will 11 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: be talking gender stereotypes and dealing with them both in 12 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,480 Speaker 1: the home, especially as we're raising our children. Both Sarah 13 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: and I have girls and boys, so we've gotten to 14 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: see how that plays out with both genders with children 15 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: and also confronting gender stereotypes in the workforce as well. 16 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: So Friday shopping aganza that weekend, I guess, right after 17 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: Cyber Monday or whatever that fake shopping day is. Do 18 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: you do a lot of shopping that weekend? Oh? Oh 19 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,119 Speaker 1: my goodness, no, I don't even do the Cyber Monday thing. 20 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: I guess because Monday is a work. Okay, do you guys, 21 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: Do you guys do Christmas presents? No? Or you just 22 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: do like holiday, we do Hankka, we do Hanka presence. 23 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: So yeah, there's still definitely the responsibility. And then at work, 24 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: of course there's still Christmas and all that kind of stuff. 25 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: But no, I don't do it on those days generally 26 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: at all, because those are the most crowded days in 27 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: the least convenient days, and I do most of my 28 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: shopping online anyway. But for me, I guess it just 29 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: doesn't Usually. I know, Cyber Monday is famous, but I'm 30 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: usually at worked that day, so it doesn't lend itself 31 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: to like midnight shopping cart. Well, the thing about cyber 32 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: Monday is it was that people were I think originally 33 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: the idea is people were looking at deals over the 34 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: weekend and then when they got back to work on 35 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: Monday when they had access to like the high speed internet. 36 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: That's where I came from money. We're actually, in fact 37 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: not working at work and we're ordering this stuff, which 38 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: again is the sort of thing of like what they 39 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: don't tell you about being a physician is that you 40 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: will not be able to do that. You will not 41 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: be able to goof off at your desk all day. 42 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: I'm like, I might be able to order some gifts 43 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: at lunchtime, but I'm not gonna be able to like 44 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: sit there and go through it. Like really, I'm on 45 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: a conference call and here I am over on Amazon 46 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: all day. So but how much of what proportion of 47 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: your holiday gift giving goes to Amazon? Out of curiosity? Oh, 48 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: I know, I feel like I should say, Oh, I 49 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 1: frequent smaller crafty reals to know it's like totally Amazon, 50 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: and I actually so Usually I don't plan ahead that much, 51 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: like because Amazon Prime has enabled me to just like 52 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: do it a week in advance or less. But this year, 53 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 1: because of my due date being very close to the 54 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 1: beginning of Hanakai, I am going to start ordering some stuff. 55 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 1: And I was better this year about like writing down 56 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: ideas as they were coming up a little bit. So 57 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: I'll probably start and it's the beginning to remember, I'll 58 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: probably start ordering stuff soon again because who knows when 59 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 1: the baby comes and I don't want to be dealing 60 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: with that. So do you give your kids one gift 61 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: to night through it? Or yeah, we did last year, 62 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean like eight big things that usually 63 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: means like one big thing and then like crayons and 64 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: new socks and the like. Out. No, they're happy they 65 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:34,519 Speaker 1: get presents. They know there's no mad no, no, it 66 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: would be like the toothbrushes. So he writes, oh, yeah, 67 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: good idea, I should add that. Growing up, we you know, 68 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: different families do Santa in different ways, and my family 69 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: was not so much into the Santa thing growing up, 70 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:55,119 Speaker 1: it being not, of course, the key point of Christmas, 71 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: so it being you know, about celebrating Jesus's birthday, not 72 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: a man in red coming down your chimney, and so 73 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: the stockings were always a bit of a afterthought perhaps, 74 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: and so we got stuff like toothbrushes in them, which 75 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: should not contribute to me feeling like like Santo was 76 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:16,479 Speaker 1: something that I was really all that excited about. I 77 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: definitely had, you know, it would be like a friend 78 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: was getting the Barbie castle and I'm getting a toothbrush 79 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: and like hmmm, curious, like that was what was under 80 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: your tree? Like we got pressed under the tree. They 81 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: were from people we knew, for my parents, my grandparents, 82 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:36,559 Speaker 1: so it was different. People have different thoughts about, you know, 83 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: how how Santo should be incorporated. And I actually was 84 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: always jealous of the stocking thing, not really the presence 85 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: under the tree, I guess because ours is so equivalent. 86 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: But like, yeah, I could have a Hanka stocking, but 87 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: I don't think that well, I mean it doesn't you 88 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: could put toothbrushes in it. I mean apparently my family 89 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 1: for years, but yeah, I know, we we do a 90 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: lot of Amazon shopping there. And it gets confusing though, 91 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: because there's all these Amazon boxes showing up and you 92 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,239 Speaker 1: don't know what's in them, and we have a tendency 93 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: just yeah, like is that legos? We have to like 94 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: squirrel stuff away upstairs And then I'm opening it and 95 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: I'm like, wait, that is the paper tells. So it's 96 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 1: back downstairs with the paper tells, and I'm a lot 97 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: less excited. So it's a what is your feeling on 98 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: like directing relatives to give certain types of gifts versus 99 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 1: like let everyone give what they want I general, I mean, 100 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 1: well people ask us you know what the kids want, 101 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 1: and so you know, if you do have relatives we're asking, 102 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: then of course you know, tell them what what the 103 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 1: kid would want or a present that you think would 104 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: be particularly good. I know, a lot of families have. 105 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: There's sort of a movement in the anti consumers sort 106 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: of thing to ask, especially like grandparents then who might 107 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: be willing to do sort of bigger ticket items like 108 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 1: memberships to area like a zoo or aquarium or kids 109 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 1: museum or something like that, because then it's something you 110 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: can use the whole year and it's not eight jillion 111 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: plastic pieces in your basement exactly. No. So because I 112 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:14,919 Speaker 1: I've sort of tried to to request that we not 113 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: get a lot of cluttery stuff, but I get the 114 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: temptation because it's easy to buy something that you know 115 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,679 Speaker 1: will light up the kids' eyes. So sometimes it doesn't 116 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 1: always work so well. But maybe as the kids are 117 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: getting older, people will be more apt to get us 118 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: the kind of stuff that isn't so cluttery. And yeah, 119 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 1: I love the experiential gifts. Stuff I did get like 120 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: drama tickets for my nieces last year, and that's actually 121 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 1: what they asked for, so I thought that was awesome. 122 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: So I may try to be looking more towards that 123 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: kind of stuff, yeah, or consumables like craft supplies that 124 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 1: are just going to get ed up, so it's not 125 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:52,119 Speaker 1: the little clutter because I hate play. And that's sand, 126 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: that horrible craft sand. Have you ever seen like the 127 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: modeling soff oh, the kumatic sand. My kids always look 128 00:06:57,560 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: at it at the museum gift shop and I'm like, 129 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: not for because it does look like it would get everywhere. 130 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: It's not that kinetic, like it doesn't stay together that well. 131 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: Just in case you were you were wondering, Yeah, no, 132 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: I mean there's a certain amount of suff and and 133 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: plus like you know, you you know, people want to 134 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: get the kids stuff. You can't really, you know not, 135 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: you can't stop them. Yes, I get that. We've done 136 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: a few experiential things. So my oldest son, he had 137 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: really wanted a cat for Christmas. I was like, oh, 138 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: I cannot. I cannot deal with another house in the 139 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: lying in this house that I will have to keep 140 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: care of. And so we wound up doing He allowed 141 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: me too instead give him a two night trip to 142 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: New York City, which was actually a lot more fun 143 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: and so I well for me than a cat would 144 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: have been. But we went. We saw the Lion King like, 145 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: we went out to eat. We went on a carriage 146 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: ride in Central Park, We went to the top of 147 00:07:57,840 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: the Empire State Building. It was really it was really 148 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: kind of cool. That is an amazing gift. Oh my goodness. So, 149 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: you know, I'll see if any of the other kids 150 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: might be into something like that, but yeah, they're still 151 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: at the age where they like the stuff like American Girl. 152 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: You guys are doing American Girl. Yeah. So, and that's 153 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: sort of in line with our episode topic a little. Yeah, 154 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: Annabelle discovered that catalog, which relentlessly started coming in the 155 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: mail about a year ago. And I can't tell her 156 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: she's asking for it because she's like heard other kids 157 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 1: ask for it, if she or if she really feels passionately, 158 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: but she's been consistent enough, and I think their products 159 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,239 Speaker 1: are you know, they at least have that historical perspective 160 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: and they have books that go with it. Like I'm 161 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: okay with that. So I think this might be the 162 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: year that she she gets an American Girl doll. There's 163 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: maybe also a little bit of pent up, like I 164 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: never got mine they wanted, so now I can buy 165 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: my daughter. Yeah. I took my daughter to the American 166 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: Girl place in New York for her birthday that she 167 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: and that was quite an experience. Oh my goodness, that 168 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: place all the doll clothes, the doll friends. Were you 169 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 1: into dolls growing up? I actually was not really into dolls. 170 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,559 Speaker 1: I did want an American Girl at some point. I 171 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: was more like my sister liked dolls and stuffed animals, 172 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: and I was more like, no, like I want like 173 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: fashiony stuff, like everything anything looked very eighties or like 174 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: crafty stuff or like, I don't know. It's not that 175 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: I liked things that were typically like quote unquote masculine 176 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: items actually like not at all, like superheroes seemed really boring. 177 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: But I also wasn't that into the dolls. I think 178 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: I like, I wanted like a play school kid. I 179 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: liked things that you kind of played with, I guess 180 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 1: more than things that you would do pretend play with. 181 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: So dolls weren't as attractive to me, but I did. 182 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: I did remember liking that catalog in particularly the American Girl, 183 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,719 Speaker 1: and then got jealous when other kids had it in 184 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: we And then does does Cameron play with the dolls 185 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: at all? Or is that yeah, well, she doesn't have 186 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: that many dolls right now. She has she has Calico Critters. 187 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: Cameron will play with those to some extent. The shopkins 188 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: will play with together. The legos that we have are 189 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 1: pretty they're quite neutral, Like we don't we have some 190 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: of the Lego Friends kids, but they're all mixed up 191 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: with like the quote unquote regular legos, Like, so there's 192 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: no I actually feel like the way we've done legos, 193 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: it's probably because because they're younger, but everything gets mixed together. 194 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: So they just all just make stuff. There's nothing gendered 195 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,719 Speaker 1: one direction or another about it. And they definitely all 196 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: do it together, and it all plays with the little 197 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: Batman thing and the Superman thing, and Cameron's playing with 198 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: the you know, Lego Friends Pets thing because he's putting 199 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 1: him in a house with Superman and Batman, et cetera. 200 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: So right now, they don't they're not inclined to super 201 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: gendered toys. Although Cameron did a mask quite a car 202 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: collection because we got a lot of them and so 203 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: that became, you know, his thing. But I do like 204 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: when I noticed that, it's like, uh, what do I, dude? 205 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: Do I you can't really prevent it necessarily. I guess 206 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: I've just tried to like encourage them both to play 207 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: with everything they have and bring them towards things that 208 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: are neutral, like building type items. Like I've talked about 209 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: magnetiles eight million times as like super cool, gender neutral, 210 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: non messy, creative play, structural play type things. Yeah, probably 211 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 1: good for spatial reasoning skills. I was telling Sarah earlier 212 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: about this study and I couldn't find it then, so 213 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: I hope I didn't just make this up. But finding 214 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: that girls who had older brothers tended to do slightly 215 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: better on spatial reasoning things, and the theory was that 216 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: they had seen legos and blocks and such in their houses, 217 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: whereas if a family had a couple girls in a 218 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: row first that there tended to be the more sort 219 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,719 Speaker 1: of female gendered toys which weren't like the legos and 220 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: the blocks, and so the girls didn't get as much 221 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: experience playing with those sorts of things. That is so interesting. Yeah, 222 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: so we definitely my daughter will have great special reasoning skills. 223 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: And the case because your daughter is and maybe my 224 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: son is true, So we have any new listeners. I 225 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: have four children. My oldest two are boys, my youngest 226 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,559 Speaker 1: is a boy. The third is a girl. And she's 227 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: she's pretty tough as these things go. She's you know, 228 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: how are her preferences? Like does she really like to 229 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: amass her own very gender specific collection, or I mean, 230 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,839 Speaker 1: this is the thing she she's she does legos and 231 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: stuff too, and she'll play with the trains and whatever, 232 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 1: but she definitely has played a lot with the dolls, 233 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: and she's asked for more dolls. But then again, you know, 234 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: it's it's socially rewarded too. I mean, people are if 235 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: she asked for a doll, she gets a doll, Whereas 236 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: I feel like when my oldest son would ask for 237 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: a doll, which he did, like people would make a 238 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: big deal out of it, either one way or the other, like, oh, 239 00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: does he really want a doll? Or be like, oh, 240 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: I did that marvel that your son wants a doll, 241 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: you know, and it's like they didn't just you know, 242 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: give it to him. Yes, that's what he wanted, and 243 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: he's wonderfully Like so, my boys are are kind of different, 244 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: and so I tend to believe that they're you know, 245 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: may it's not even so much a gender thing as 246 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: a personality thing, and certain things are more rewarded within 247 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 1: boys than others. So yes, he probably does gravitate to 248 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: some more of the boys stuff just because it's what 249 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: gets reinforced socially around him. But my oldest son was 250 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: definitely into playing with dolls, and we bought the kitchen 251 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,559 Speaker 1: set for him. Originally my daughter's the one who plays 252 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: with it now, but it was definitely a present for 253 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: him that he liked that sort of thing. He's you know, 254 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: I never even thought of the kitchen set having any 255 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: gender and gender implications, but you're right, I guess, yeah, 256 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: I both play with it. Yeah, like just it's way no. 257 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 1: He wanted it and we got it for him. And 258 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: but but then my second son is far more sort 259 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: of stereotypical boy, you know, in that everything becomes a weapon. 260 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: There's you know, like very more into we have to 261 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: you know, keep them away from stuff like violent video 262 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: games because that's what he'd want to play if he could. 263 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: And you know, we not that we need to go 264 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: into all that, but there's just more of that kind 265 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: of and he's very anti girl stuff, whereas my eldest 266 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: son was never anti girl stuff. He's perfectly fine to play. 267 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: And that's so nice that you have those two to 268 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: compare so that you see that it's not just like, oh, 269 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: well that why chromosome always does that. It's like, well, 270 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: there's this complex mire of the cultural influences and a 271 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: kid's innate preferences that are going to play out in 272 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: some fashion. And I do I mean this dint get controversial, 273 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: like in many people. Certainly the bell curves overlap like crazy, 274 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: but there may be more you know x ex. Women 275 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: who gravitate towards more dolls. But it's it's like, I 276 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: don't know, it's just much more. It's much more complex 277 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: than like, oh they're this way because there's yeah, it's 278 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: like there's so many different influence. I think the bell 279 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: curves are the way to just grab the overlapping bell curves. 280 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, generally women are shorter than men, 281 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: but there are a lot of yes exactly, but there's 282 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: a lot of taller women shorter men, and so it's 283 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: overlapping bell curves. There's a big spot in the middle. 284 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: And I mean we're not surprised that like possibly men 285 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: and women, boys and girls might be different. I mean, 286 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: you know, there there are reasons for that. On a 287 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: population level, that is exactly true. But on an individual level, 288 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: anybody can be anything. And I firmly believe and so 289 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: we we definitely I mean, I don't feel like I 290 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: need to be on a mission with my children to 291 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: you know, counter things. But I do. I feel like 292 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: I'm probably more aware of certain things like with that 293 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: my daughter than you know, the boys, just because I 294 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: know there is a lot of you know, crap that 295 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: shoved at women, and I wonder sometimes where they picked 296 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: it up. I was in our show notes, I mentioned 297 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: to Sarah that my my daughter, at one point, you know, 298 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: she was like, I want to be a doctor. And 299 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: she said that for years, like she wants to be 300 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: a Doctor's partly that she's she she was born with 301 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: some problems with her eyes, and so she's actually been 302 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: through a couple of surgeries and so she's familiar with 303 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: the medical establishment in a way that the other children 304 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: are not. So she she wants to be a doctor. 305 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: But at one point she was like, well, mommy, I 306 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: want to be a doctor, but I also want to 307 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: be a mommy. And I'm like, oh my goodness. We 308 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: did not have that problem at our well. Annabelle actually 309 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: did say at one point she wanted to be a 310 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: doctor and thankful there was no qualification. And I guess 311 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: that's because obviously me who's a doctor. Yes, although now 312 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: she wants to be an artist, so that's cool too. 313 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: But you know, yeah, we had to go through the 314 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: long list of like, you know, people who she knows 315 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: who are doctors and mommies, and you know, we fortunately 316 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: we know a lot of them around here, so we 317 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: we could go through the list as, oh, well, you know, 318 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: Layla's mommy is a doctor, her head, so forth the 319 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 1: Connor's mommy. Yeah, if I heard that statement, I was 320 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 1: a director. So we went through that. But you know, 321 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: we'll see how she grows up, because I mean, clearly 322 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: the workforce is not absent of such things too, And 323 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: I'm curious have you encountered much of it as you 324 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: went through things like you know, your rotations and your 325 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: residency and training and all that, did you Because medical 326 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: schools are pretty close, if not already half female at 327 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 1: this point. Oh yeah, med schools. Actually, I think it's 328 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: even dipped, maybe towards like a tiny bit more female. 329 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: And pediatrics, which is, you know, the field that I'm 330 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,479 Speaker 1: in is like eighty percent of our applicants are female 331 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: at this point, so you know, there certainly is differences 332 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: by specialty, but those stereotypes will not be staying for 333 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: the next generation. Because they're going to get really used 334 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: to seeing a lot of female doctors out there. Yeah, 335 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: but I mean as were there still some that you 336 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: were dealing with as you were going through your training. 337 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: I mean, especially as you were, you know, maybe training 338 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: with older physicians who are Yeah, yeah, I mean certainly 339 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 1: I will think back to the residency days and when 340 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: you're in the surgical rotation, there tends to be a 341 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 1: little bit more of it, and it really varies by program. 342 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 1: I mean, I was lucky to be at a place 343 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 1: where there was actually a lot of female leadership. The 344 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,919 Speaker 1: department of Ascular Surgery where my husband was in had 345 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 1: a female chair, which is really rare. Actually, there's like 346 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: very few female chairs of surgical departments out there. And 347 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: I do see it, you know, as a as a professional. 348 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: Now it does. It's more of a dichotomy where the 349 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: sort of leadership generation and most of them are older, 350 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: so they've been at it for longer. When there was 351 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: more of a skewed distribution of physicians, tends to be 352 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: a little bit of a male dominated culture, which can 353 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,959 Speaker 1: be hard because that's just the assumption that you know, 354 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: there's a certain model for a physician, and it tends 355 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: to be a man who has somebody else dealing with 356 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 1: other things on the home front. Then yes. And I've 357 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 1: spoken with other people at different institutions and especially during 358 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: their training, who have been told stuff like, oh, you 359 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: know you don't want to do this because you're a woman, 360 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: or you know, I'm so thankful to my spouse because 361 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: without that I couldn't have done that. You know, when 362 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 1: you say things like that, a female in their peak 363 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: reproductive years might find that to be a roadblock, even 364 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 1: if that wasn't how the person meant it. So I know, 365 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: like the challenges are absolutely not gone. Yeah, and even 366 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: just like how we think about I mean, there's a 367 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: lot of sort of what was it called implicit bias 368 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: or you know, I forget what the exact word is, 369 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 1: unconscious bias. But in terms of like in the corporate world, 370 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: I say this a lot with you know, who looks 371 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: like a leader, Well, somebody who has gravy toss, Well, 372 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: what is gravy toss? Well it turns out to be 373 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 1: like a good fit. They're a good fit. But what 374 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:13,640 Speaker 1: does that even mean? It turns out to mean that 375 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: like basically they're a tall white man. That's who looks 376 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: like a leader, right, and and so if that's what 377 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 1: you're being judgment well, you know there are many people 378 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: who will, whatever they do, will never be a tall 379 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 1: white man. So if that's the for me, the tall 380 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: part is the completely to become a man. But you 381 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 1: could not become tall, So yeah, I mean, you know, 382 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 1: if that's what you're up against, you have to come 383 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: up with other ways to show people that you are 384 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: a leader and and sort of certain things. And then CHERRYL. 385 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,239 Speaker 1: Sandberg's written about this all the time, that men, you know, 386 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 1: being sort of loud and demanding a scene as power, 387 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: whereas women doing that it's seen as like shrill, and yes, 388 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 1: and I've had to have that, Like sometimes my husband 389 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: and I have like dissected, like you know, different things 390 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 1: that go on at work, and it talked about it, 391 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,239 Speaker 1: and I'm always like, care, well, like you're said that 392 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 1: that person said it like this, but like how would 393 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: you feel if that was a man saying it? Would 394 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 1: that just be strong or would that be you know, 395 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 1: bitchy or yeah, shrill is the right word. And you know, 396 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: of course we don't even need to think about politics 397 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: and past elections and such, but behavior is judged differently. 398 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 1: Attitudes are judged differently depending on gender, and that's just 399 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: the reality. I mean, I don't know that we're going 400 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: to move from that anytime. So women leaders have to 401 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: sort of thread this needle of being seen as both 402 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: caring and strong, and you know, it's not an easy 403 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 1: thing to do that. I interviewed this wonderful one with 404 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 1: Cheryl bill Sheelter, who's the former CEO of Popeye'es. It's 405 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: now called like Popeye's Louisiana Kitchen, I think, but Popeye's 406 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: the fried chicken chain, right, And so she was talking 407 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: about how she threads the needle of that that you 408 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: can really be aggressive on behalf of other people. Is 409 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 1: how such aggressiveness tends to be valued in women, that 410 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: you are seen as strong and demanding on behalf of 411 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,120 Speaker 1: other people. That I'm doing this because my team needs. 412 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 1: Oh interesting that it's someone else. It's not. I'm not 413 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: looking at it for me. I mean there may be 414 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: benefits to I mean, I want to be the leader 415 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: of this company because I know I can do great 416 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: things for other people, which you know, I'll still be 417 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 1: the leader of the company. That happening, but that it's 418 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: it's framing it in terms of advocating for others, and 419 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 1: that as part of it, it becomes easier for you 420 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: to do in many cases and makes off better. You know. 421 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 1: In medicine, the equivalent of that is like you have 422 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: to find the patient care angle, which should be the 423 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 1: important thing anyway, but isn't always necessarily what's being talked 424 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: about at the conference table. But I do think that 425 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: is what makes people listen. And there's no gender that's 426 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: going to be penalized for saying something strongly and saying 427 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 1: and that's to provide better patient care, better patient outcomes, 428 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 1: or you know, for the three year out there with 429 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: diabetes or whatever, then you can you could be strong 430 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: and powerful and not so I think that's that's the 431 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: medical equivalent. That's very interesting, Yeah, but definitely a difficult 432 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: thing for people to come apart, you know, And I've 433 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: seen this even with people voices like I know that 434 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: in the writing world, male authors are often automatically taken 435 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: more seriously, like if they write a novel, it's a 436 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 1: serious novel. It's not a fluff novel. Whereas women's fiction 437 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: is in and of itself, the phrase women's fiction means, yeah, 438 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 1: you're right that has like fluff, negative, negative connotations. And 439 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: in the public speaking circuit, I'm getting better about, you know, 440 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: asking for what I think I deserve in terms of 441 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: speaking phase. I have agents who represent me for that 442 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: sort of stuff as well. But I also know that 443 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 1: it's it's men. It's like the powerful voice, right, that 444 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: people are gravitating towards. And as a woman, I have 445 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 1: to be somewhat careful of my voice. You know, that 446 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: is my voice, you know, coming across in a good 447 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: sort of powerful way. But I know that people are 448 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:13,159 Speaker 1: sort of naturally feel like the strong voice is the 449 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: male voice, it's the low voice, and so that's you know, 450 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: something I have to deal with too. But I do 451 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: think that that's changing as well. My pastor at church 452 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: is a woman, the head pastor, and she has a 453 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 1: wonderful voice for giving sermons. It sounds very you know, 454 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: it lures you in. You're listening, you're paying attention, and 455 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: I know in past generations people are like, well, women 456 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: couldn't preach, They wouldn't you know, have the voice to 457 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: do it, or and she does. I mean, it's it's 458 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: just you have to sort of I think people's minds 459 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 1: are slowly changing on all these things. That's awesome. Yeah, 460 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: it's I mean, we're not summing this up with any 461 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: sort of a solution, but I do think that the 462 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: first step is awareness and reading some of these really 463 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 1: interesting books and just taking stock of these situations. And 464 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,880 Speaker 1: and I always love the gender reversal trick, like, hmm, 465 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 1: would this whole interaction or situation feel differently if it 466 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: was reverse? And if so, like is that fair? How 467 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: is it? Coloring can help. I had a little tiny 468 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 1: parenting anecdote that, like, you know, not really in the 469 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: home or workspheres, but like they had this little thing 470 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: in class where they said, you know, go ahead and 471 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: bring in a treat for a small treat for each 472 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: kid for Halloween. So I took that to mean, like, 473 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: there's twenty two kids in the class. I put twenty 474 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: two organic lollipops in his ziploc bag, brought it in 475 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 1: and felt like I did my job. And I got 476 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: there and like most of the people had brought in 477 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 1: and either they were being brought in by their nannies, 478 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 1: some of them by their dads, because I think a 479 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: lot of the dads do drop off on the way 480 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: to work. And then some of them by moms, like 481 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: these like decorated little baggies with like the kids nately, 482 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,199 Speaker 1: you know, with love from balance hers, so they get 483 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 1: like credit for it, right, And so Annabel came home 484 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 1: with like several of these, like multiple of these like 485 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: cute little gift bag type things, and I just thought 486 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: it meant like bringing you know whatever. They're gonna get 487 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 1: enough stuff. It's Halloween. So I felt bad for like 488 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 1: one second, and then this dad was dropping it off 489 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 1: and made some sort of offhand comment like, oh ho, 490 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: you just can't stop my wife, and I'm like, he 491 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 1: doesn't feel bad bring it in, So why do I 492 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: have to feel guilty about doing, you know, like not 493 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 1: a bonus pinter sty job on this. No man in 494 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: the class, no father, would have felt guilty for not 495 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: doing a pinteresty job on it. I mean I can like, 496 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: maybe that's a stereotype thing to say, but it's true. 497 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: So I just moved on and then I rolled with it, 498 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,400 Speaker 1: and then I posted into on our best of both 499 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: worlds Instagram, which hopefully exactly Yeah. No, I love it always, 500 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 1: just asking yourself, would I be reacting the same way 501 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: if the if the genders were reversed, and if if 502 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 1: you were sure, I mean, there's plenty of you know, 503 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: stupid things women do at work, stupid things men do 504 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: at work, and you know, sometimes our unhappiness about them 505 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: is not gendered at all. But if it is that, 506 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: you know, you find yourself annoyed that a woman is 507 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: advocating aggressively for something or asking for a promotion or 508 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: raise or something like that, then to say, well, we 509 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 1: would expect this with others if we don't, you know, 510 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: we want to change these things in the future, not 511 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 1: expect them this way. So moving to our there's no 512 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: good segue out of this. I you know, it's just 513 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: that's but we welcome comments. I do think we love 514 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: especially I mean, we don't want to get into this 515 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: at all, but I know that the topic of sexual 516 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: harassment is in the news a lot right now, with 517 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: various powerful men having turned out to be total horrible people, 518 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,880 Speaker 1: and so we'd love to hear how people have navigated 519 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: the situation. Owners Sarah and I are both very lucky 520 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: that neither of us have had to deal with much 521 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: horrible stuff in that regard, and we would love to 522 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: hear from people about how they have dealt with complicated 523 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: situations or you know, if they have managed to counter 524 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 1: various gender shary types at work. We would love to 525 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 1: hear from you about that, so please reach out to 526 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: us and any advice you might have that we can 527 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: share with our listeners in future episodes. So our our 528 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: love of the week again total one eight here. But 529 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: this is something that is totally gendered, because you know 530 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: mine is mine is totally genders rightah, My love of 531 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 1: the week is maternity geniens. So yeah, very gendered. Sorry, 532 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: can't can't, can't go neutral with that one. But so 533 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: when I got pregnant this time, I had thrown out 534 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: all well not thrown out. I'd given away to friends 535 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: and to you know, charitable organizations all my clothes from 536 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: the prior pregnancies because I thought I was done having kids. 537 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: And at like ten weeks, I always show really really early, 538 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: and I'm busting out of everything, and I'd rather just 539 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: wear the maternity clothes than like not fit my clothes. 540 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: So like ten weeks, I went to pee in the pod. 541 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: I bought a bunch of stuff, including two pairs of 542 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: probably you know, overpriced designer maternity jeans that I sort 543 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: of had to convince myself to buy, and those things 544 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: have become I mean they're like heroes. Like the price 545 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: per were has got to be amazingly good because I 546 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: got a pair of like black skinny jeans that were 547 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: ag that I wore I wear probably three times a 548 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: week to work with like longer tops over them. And 549 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: then a pair of Joe's like denim one like blue 550 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: ones with like a copped hem that I wear literally 551 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 1: every single day on the weekend. So judge me for 552 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: being boring a gross but they're super comfortable and I 553 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 1: am really happy I made that investment. Yeah, if you 554 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: get a good pair of maternity jeans, those are awesome. 555 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: I wore this one pair of seven for all Mankind 556 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: maternity jeans. WHI yeah, I got it pee in the pod. 557 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that I wore through all four pregnancies. 558 00:29:54,400 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 1: And yeah, your price per Ware superware ridiculous. Although there 559 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: were some other maternity clothes that I only went out 560 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: to wear like twice and then the band fell apart 561 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: or something like. You know, people do not necessarily make 562 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: nice maternity clothes. And it's better than when I think 563 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: our mothers were you know, it was just a tent 564 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 1: at that point, but you know it's still there's a 565 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: lot of really bad maternity clothes. But my love of 566 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: the week, I'll do a clothing related one. Also in 567 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: terms of good price per wear, I have this blue 568 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: tank top from Saint John. I guess a shell is 569 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: what you would call it. But if you ever, if 570 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: you want to google my ted talk, it's the one 571 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: I'm wearing in that and I have worn that for 572 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: so many speeches. I really I need to stop wearing it, 573 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: probably because people are gonna be like, you wore that video. 574 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: I saw you my speech tap. But I know it works, 575 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: Like I like the colors, this bright blue jewel tone. 576 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: I can wear it with black pants or black skirt 577 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: and some you know, nude heels, and I just feel like, 578 00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: you know, okay, I know it's gonna be fine on camera. 579 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: I know it's gonna be fine with whatever lighting. I 580 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: feel comfortable in it, and so I've worn it for 581 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: several events and I'm very happy with it. And it 582 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: was not cheap either, like it was like three hundred 583 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: bucks for a shell. But on the other hand, it's uh, 584 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: it's seen me through a lot so price per ware. 585 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: It's all about all about price per war, So I'll 586 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: do a real quick Q and A. We're getting towards 587 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: the end of Sarah's pregnancy here, very very exciting, but 588 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: if you read her blog, you know that she is 589 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: still running. So thirty five weeks in she is still running. 590 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: So what can you tell us about third trimester running? 591 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: How's it going? It's going pretty well. So I did 592 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: this with all three perg well, actually with Annabelle, I 593 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: literally ran until forty weeks, like I think I had 594 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,239 Speaker 1: her at forty weeks and two days, and I went 595 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: on a run on forty weeks. Cameron, I did quit 596 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: around thirty five weeks. I was anemic and really tired, 597 00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: probably from chasing a toddler, and I was like over it, 598 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: so I just stopped. This time, I felt pretty good. 599 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: But when I say running, I know there are some 600 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: people who can like go, you know, like their normal 601 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: pace and barely slow down. That is not me. I 602 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: have to like accept that I'm going to be really 603 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: really slow and accept that something's better than nothing, and 604 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: then it really is. It still feels good because you're 605 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: still getting a workout no matter what the pace is. 606 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 1: So I guess I would say my secrets are walk intervals. 607 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: So I'll do like, actually I've done up to like 608 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: I when the weather cooled down, I've done up to 609 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: like a mile outside at a time, and then I'll 610 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: walk for a quarter mile and then like run another mile. 611 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: But if I really like I'm not sure I have 612 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: good energy on a given day, I'll do like four 613 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: minutes run, two minutes walk, four minutes run. And I've 614 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: dialed down my run paces like crazy. I mean, like 615 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: my normal run pace would be like an easy run 616 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: at like nine minute mile, nine thirty something like that, 617 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: and I do like twelve minute miles, so it's not 618 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: exactly the same, but it oddly feels the same, and 619 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: I still get that same nice little I don't know, 620 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: mood boosts run high from it, even though I'm only 621 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: going like two or three miles. And I guess I 622 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: would just say there's you know now that we know 623 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: it used to be a tabo thing, but now there's 624 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: no data for that whatsoever. And it actually suggested that 625 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 1: exercise is going to help you have a very healthy pregnancy. 626 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: So as long as you're consistent and you kind of 627 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: listen to your body, if you can do it, go 628 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 1: for it, and don't be afraid to be really embarrassingly slow. 629 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: I think that's some people's problem. They try to run 630 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 1: at their normal place and they're like, that's hard. Well, yeah, 631 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: you're heavy, yah, exactly. Your heart has to be really fast. 632 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: And actually I tend to have to slow down immediately, 633 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: like like you know, first trimester, and that's due to 634 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: all kinds of blood volume changes and heart rate changes. 635 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: And you know, it's not how fast you're going, but 636 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: are you moving at all? So that's how and continuing 637 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: to move is great for having a better pregnancy and 638 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: like not feeling like completely awful. Absolutely, absolutely, and I 639 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: really really do feel decent. I complain a bunch but 640 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: my husband and to my coworkers, but it could be 641 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: so much worse. All right, Well, this has been episode seventeen. 642 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: We've been talking about gender stereotypes and how we can 643 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: combat them both at work and at home. So please 644 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: tune in next week when we'll have more on how 645 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: to make work and life fit together. Thanks for listening. 646 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com 647 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can 648 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 1: find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has 649 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us 650 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 1: next time for more on making work and life work together.