1 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and the Samantha and Welcome to Stuff. 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: I've never told your production of I Heart Radios how 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: stuff works. And this classic episode we wanted to to 4 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: replay one that is a part of the conversation we're 5 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: having nationally worldwide around abortion and it's miscarriage. Yes, because 6 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: a lot of the laws and bands being proposed here 7 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: are being passed here do you have stipulations in them 8 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 1: where somebody who has a miscarriage to be investigated for homicide? Right? 9 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: This is something I think you and I Samantha definitely 10 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: wanna return to and um find some people to to 11 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: talk to you about this because I think that, um, 12 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: it impacts more women. Um then we know, right, it 13 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: impacts a lot of women. In the statistics out there, 14 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: it's pretty high the likelihood of miscarriage, and you know 15 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: that's being floated around for quite some time now. And 16 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: then just having the language of what is a miscarriage 17 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: versus an abortion and on what does all that look like, 18 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: especially like with medical procedures and how that can be. Yes, 19 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 1: But in the meantime, here is this classic episode and 20 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: we hope you enjoy Welcome to Stuff. Mom never told 21 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: you from how stupp works dot com. Hello and welcome 22 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm Caroline and I'm Kristen. Today's topic 23 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: is one that has been requested by a lot of 24 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: you listeners out there. It's a rather sensitive topic for 25 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: a lot of women and their partners. Um it's we're 26 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: talking about miscarriages today. It's a it's a common health 27 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: issue that a lot of people face, and we have 28 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: never done anything just kind of giving you the one 29 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: oh one on miscarriages before, so today we thought we 30 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: would talk about the whole issue. Yeah, and I think 31 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: it's also important for us to talk about miscarriage, not 32 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 1: just because so many women experience it, but because it's 33 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: something that we don't talk about very much, probably among ourselves, 34 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: especially considering how common it is. Um. So we're just gonna, yeah, 35 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: walk through what it is and why it happens, more importantly, 36 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: almost why it doesn't happen, and the psychological repercussions. So, 37 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: first off, what is a miscarriage. This is coming from 38 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: the National Institutes of Health, and technically speaking, it's the 39 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:49,959 Speaker 1: spontaneous loss of a fetus before the twenty week of pregnancy, 40 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 1: because pregnancy loss after the twenty week is actually called 41 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: a pre term delivery, right. And another term for miscarriage 42 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: is spontaneous abortion, and spontaneous being the key word, this 43 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: refers to a naturally occurring event, not anything to do 44 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: with medical abortions or surgical abortions. And there are other 45 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: terms for early loss of pregnancy, including what's termed a 46 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:19,519 Speaker 1: complete abortion, wherein all of the tissue of conception leaves 47 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:25,679 Speaker 1: the body, and there's incomplete, inevitable, infected, and missed abortion. 48 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: All of those different terms relate to how much of 49 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: a tissue leaves the body, whether or not, as infected 50 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: abortion implies whether or not there was some kind of 51 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: infection in the womb. Um. Missed abortion, for instance, is 52 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: when the pregnancy is lost but the products of conception 53 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: as they're called, remain inside of the body. Right. And 54 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: there's also this term called threatened miscarriage. This is basically 55 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: when the symptoms of miscarriage occur, whether without vaginal bleeding, 56 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: and half of threatened miscarriages do in fact in in 57 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: pregnancy loss, and so the signs of miscarriage include things 58 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: like cramping, bleeding, and lower back pain. And there was 59 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: one column that I was reading in Slate by a 60 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: woman named Sarah shem Kiss, who was talking about how 61 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: miscarriage is often portrayed on television as this one time event, 62 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 1: like where a woman goes to the bathroom and she 63 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:24,600 Speaker 1: sees blood and then it's over. And one thing that 64 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: a lot of people might not realize is that this 65 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,919 Speaker 1: can be a process that can take at least in 66 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:34,840 Speaker 1: shem Kisses case, as long as a week to happen. Um. So, yeah, 67 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: then that just is just kind of putting it out 68 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 1: there to clarify how the process can can vary for 69 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: different women. Right, And so we should take a look 70 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 1: at the causes of miscarriage because contrary to you know, 71 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:52,679 Speaker 1: there's a lot of misinformation I feel like around around 72 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: things like this, having sex exercise, mild falls and most 73 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:02,679 Speaker 1: medications do not cause miscarriage. Again, sex exercise, mild false 74 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 1: medications not a cause of miscarriage. And a lot of 75 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: times when it happens, there might be some guilt on 76 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:13,239 Speaker 1: the part of the mother and her partner thinking that 77 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: there might be something wrong with their genes that caused 78 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: this pregnancy loss. But in fact, most miscarriages are caused 79 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: by chromosomal problems that essentially make it impossible for the 80 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: baby to develop, but those problems are usually not related 81 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: to mother's or father's genes, right, And a common chromosomal 82 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: issue that comes up is that the embryo or fetus 83 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: has a chromosome that causes it to develop abnormally. And 84 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: this is not usually a sign of a condition that 85 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: could cause problems in future pregnancies because it usually happens 86 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: by chance when the egg divides and grows. And this 87 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: is actually a problem that causes at least half of miscarriages. 88 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: And one thing that medical scholars have been looking more 89 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 1: closely at too in recent years is a correlation between 90 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 1: miscarriage and partners age, not the mother's age, um they're 91 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: the frequency. For instance, of these kinds of chromosomal anomalies 92 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: in spermatozoa appear to increase with male age, So, for instance, 93 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 1: in two thousand four, there was a study published an 94 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: American Journal of Epidemiology which found that pregnancies by fathers 95 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 1: fifty years or older carried twice the risk of miscarriage 96 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: compared with pregnancies with younger fathers. And some other possible 97 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: risk factors for miscarriage include things like drug and alcohol 98 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 1: abuse during pregnancy, exposure to environmental toxins, hormone problems, infection, obesity, 99 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 1: or on the flip side, being extremely underweight, um smoking, 100 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: and problems with the body's immune response. Yeah, an age 101 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: can also be a factor for risk of miscarriage as well, 102 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: as we talked about in our episode on why it's 103 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: harder to get pregnant after thirty five of because the 104 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: risk of miscarriages hiring women who are older, and that 105 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: risk starts to elevate after age thirty, but it really 106 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: escalates after forty. But no matter the age of the mother, 107 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: miscarriage is most likely to happen early. In fact, most 108 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: miscarriages occurred during the first seven weeks of pregnancy. Eight 109 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: out of ten miscarriages happened during the first three months 110 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: of pregnancy, and second trimester miscarriages happened in just one 111 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: to five of pregnancies. Yeah, I kind of put another way. 112 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: More than half of all pregnancies are spontaneously lost before 113 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: a woman even knows she's pregnant, before she even misses 114 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: a period. That's how common this happened. So in other words, 115 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: women might have miscarriages and not even know it because 116 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: they didn't even realize they were pregnant, right, And you know, 117 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: as as horrifying as the experience of miscarriage is, typically 118 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: it's to tistically, it is usually a one time occurrence. 119 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: Most women who miscarry go on to have a healthy 120 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: pregnancy after the miscarriage. However, there is a recovery period, 121 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: and people kind of debate how long this period should 122 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: go on, you know, do you wait a long time, 123 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: do you try again immediately? Should you take you know, 124 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: basically mental health into consideration when you're doing that. And 125 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: while it of course varies from person to person, the 126 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: physical recovery from miscarriage in most cases takes only a 127 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: few hours to a couple of days. Yeah, I mean, 128 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: your periods will likely return within four to six weeks, 129 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: and it is possible to become pregnant during the menstrual 130 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,959 Speaker 1: cycle immediately after a miscarriage. Now, that said, the World 131 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: Health Organization recommends waiting at least six months before trying 132 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: to conceive. That six month waiting period seems to be 133 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: standard advice, although more recent studies are starting to call 134 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 1: that in a question because the w h O is 135 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: recommending that's six month wait time based largely on maternal 136 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: health in developing countries where medical care is less reliable 137 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: and where women tend to get pregnant at earlier ages. Correct. Yeah, 138 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: And the British Medical Journal actually says that women who 139 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: conceive within six months of a miscarriage instead of waiting 140 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 1: up to a year end up reducing their risk of 141 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: another miscarriage by a third, and they also increase their 142 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: chances of a healthy and successful pregnancy. But Julius Shelley, 143 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: who's an associate professor at Deacon University in Burwood, Australia, 144 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: wrote an editorial accompanying that British Medical Journal study, offering 145 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: a little bit of a qualification, saying, quote, we cannot 146 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 1: really tell whether pregnancy is conceived very soon after a 147 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: miscarriage really do have better outcomes, or whether women and 148 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: couples who conceive quickly following a miscarriage have better outcomes 149 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:55,719 Speaker 1: in subsequent pregnancy than couples who take longer to conceive. Right. 150 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: And so, I mean it kind of depends person to person, 151 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: really on your own person mental health and all of 152 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: that stuff. I mean, if you're healthy and feel ready, 153 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: doctors say there might not be a need to wait. Uh, 154 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: you know, if you're if you're taking your prenatal vitamins 155 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: or your full like acid supplements. You know that that 156 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 1: usually starts months before you even conceive, as long as 157 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 1: you're maintaining a healthy weight including physical activity, uh and 158 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: eating a healthy diet, and of course managing stress and 159 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: avoiding alcohol smoking that sort of stuff. Yeah, and I 160 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: would imagine too that that weight time might also depend 161 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: on the type of miscarriage that occurs, like we were 162 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: referenced at the top of the podcast of the various 163 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: kinds that can happen. Um. But one thing too that 164 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: we wanted to mention is the question of whether or 165 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: not having a medical abortion of voluntary abortion in any 166 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: way predisposes you to miscarriage, because I think that is 167 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: a fairly common assumption. When I was just poking around 168 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: on Google looking for solid data on this, there were 169 00:10:56,200 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: a lot of uh sort of inflammatory tie A blog 170 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: posts that immediately pop up saying that if you have 171 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 1: an abortion, then you are risking you know, subsequent miscarriage 172 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: or infertility. Um. However, the Royal College of Obstetricians and 173 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: Gynecologists says, quote there are no proven associations between induced 174 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: abortion and subsequent ectopic pregnancy PULLA cent to previa or infertility. 175 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: And one reason that some people have thought that miscar 176 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: that abortion might lead to miscarriage is because it's based 177 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 1: on old data. Basically, abortion technology has improved and made 178 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:41,679 Speaker 1: it safer for the mother and left the uterus and 179 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 1: the cervis more intact, So there should not be a 180 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: greater risk of miscarriage, right exactly. And one risk factor 181 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 1: that we didn't really touch on fully is the idea 182 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 1: that women who have had previous miscarriages are at a 183 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: greater risk of having future or miscarriages. And yes, this 184 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: is a definite risk factor, but it is it is small. 185 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:08,199 Speaker 1: Less than five percent of women have two consecutive miscarriages 186 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: and only one percent have three or more consecutive miscarriages. 187 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,439 Speaker 1: And this is coming from the Mayo Clinic. Uh they 188 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: write that after two consecutive miscarriages, there's a seventy chance 189 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 1: that the next pregnancy will be maintained. Now, somewhat counterintuitively, 190 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: after three miscarriages, in fact, that risk drops to But 191 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: when looking for the reasons why someone might be experiencing 192 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: recurrent miscarriages, but in cases of recurrent miscarriage, the big 193 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,839 Speaker 1: question mark often is why it's happening because I believe 194 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: this was reported on in the New York Times that 195 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: in fewer than half of couples experiencing that will doctors 196 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: pinpoint a definite cause, and the causes of recurrent miscarriage 197 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: really tied back to miscarriage over all. UH, the overwhelming 198 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 1: majority of these recurrent miscarriages that happen because of chromosomal abnormalities, which, 199 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: as we already discussed, increase with the mother's age and 200 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: with the father's age. There could be genetic errors in 201 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: the egg or sperm that result in embryos with too 202 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: many or too few chromosomes, but environmental factors are rarely 203 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:26,079 Speaker 1: linked to pregnancy loss and there have been no associations 204 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: between environmental factors and recurrent pregnancy loss established. There could 205 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: also be an inherited disorder that raises a woman's risk 206 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: of blood clots um also called thrombosis, that can increase 207 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: the risk of fetal death in the second half of 208 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: pregnancy as well. And if you experience multiple miscarriages, there 209 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: there are tests that you can have when you go 210 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 1: to your doctor, things like blood tests. They can evaluate 211 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: it to detect problems with hormones, your immune system, um, 212 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 1: there are chromosomal tests that you and your partner might 213 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: both have your IT tested to determine if chromosomes can 214 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: be a factor if there is tissue from the miscarriage 215 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: that's remaining that can be tested, and these chromosomal analyzes 216 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: can basically see if there's some inherited genetic cause that happens. 217 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: And that's in less than five percent of couples. But 218 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, talking about the immune system problems 219 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: and the hormonal problems, like you know, we mentioned in 220 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: our thyroid episode that you know that is both when 221 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: you have something like graves or hashimotos, that's both a 222 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:31,239 Speaker 1: hormone and an immune disorder problem. So having those tests 223 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: leading up to pregnancy, whether you've had miscarriages or not, 224 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: is very important. Yeah, and and again we want to 225 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: underscore that on the bright side, about six of women 226 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: with unexplained repeated miscarriages still go on to have healthy pregnancies, 227 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: So even if you've had multiple miscarriages, it's certainly likely 228 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: that you can still have a baby. So we've talked 229 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: about the physical repercussions of miscarriage, what what might be 230 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: going on inside the b addie, but we also need 231 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: to talk about how miscarriage can impact the mind and 232 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: your emotional well being, not just for mothers, but also 233 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: for partners as well. So we're going to get into 234 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: the psychology of pregnancy loss when we come right back 235 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: from a quick break. So we were talking a lot 236 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: about the physical causes and effects of miscarriages, but one 237 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: thing we have not talked about yet is the psychological effect, 238 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: the burden that the mother and her partner feel when 239 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: this tragedy has happened, and calling it a tragedy is 240 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like a lot of times when 241 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: miscarriages are discussed, they're kind of brushed off anyone outside 242 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: of the couple or the mother who is having the child. 243 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: It's kind of the attitude is like, oh, well, you'll 244 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: be okay, just try try again. Well, and especially if 245 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: it's lost early from the pregnancy to right there's seems 246 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: to be kind of this general misunderstanding about the emotional 247 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: toll that a miscarriage can take on a couple or 248 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: a mother, however early it happens, Traditionally, it's kind of 249 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: this private event, you know. I know a friend of 250 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: mine had a miscarriage before she had her children, and 251 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: I didn't even know about it. You know, it was 252 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: once she was pregnant with her now two year old 253 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: that you know, she said, oh, yeah, you know, early on, 254 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: I had this thing. And and it's almost as if 255 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: a lot of moms feel like they're not allowed to 256 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: be sad, or they're not allowed to be sad in public. Yeah, 257 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: but a new research suggests that some women might actually 258 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: more in for a lot longer than expected, which is, 259 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: you know, part of why we wanted to to talk 260 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: about this issue, to kind of open up these conversational 261 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: lines for women to feel more comfortable talking about these experiences, 262 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: because it can last even after the birth of a 263 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: healthy child, although of course the range inseverity of the 264 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: symptoms are going to vary and h Janet Jaffee, who 265 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: is a clinical psychologist at the Center for Reproductive Psychology 266 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,880 Speaker 1: in San Diego, says that it's kind of the medical 267 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: commonality of miscarriages that lead us to kind of brushing 268 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: them off, to underestimate the impact that they can have 269 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: on a family. Um Jaffe says that it's a traumatic 270 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: loss not only of the pregnancy, but of a woman's 271 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 1: sense of self and her hopes and her dreams. Of 272 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 1: the future. She has lost her reproductive story and it 273 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: needs to be grieved. Yeah, and a woman who has 274 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,959 Speaker 1: a miscarriage is understandably at risk for symptoms of depression 275 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: and anxiety, not just immediately following the miscarriage, but in 276 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: in the years to come and even after having a 277 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: healthy child. Women who miscarry also have a higher risk 278 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: of postpartum depression. And there is a paper published in 279 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: the British Journal of Psychiatry in two thousand eleven looking 280 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: at this, and the researcher followed more than thirteen thousand 281 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 1: women for three years post birth and of though who 282 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: had miscarriages, they were about hundred of those women who 283 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: had had a miscarriage experienced clinically significant depression and or 284 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: exiety anxiety during and after the pregnancies for up to 285 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: those three years. And this can really affect women as 286 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: they become mothers, as they bear healthy children. Um A 287 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,920 Speaker 1: study looked at women who had delivered a child within 288 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: nineteen months after a miscarriage and found that of the 289 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: infants had disorganized attachments to their mothers that it was 290 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: still affecting them in the way that they viewed their 291 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: healthy children. And not only can it take a toll 292 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: on mother's relationship with her children, but understandably it can 293 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: take a toll on her relationship with her partner. Um, 294 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: there have been there's been research into how miscarriage can 295 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: impact UH sex life, for instance, and a lot of 296 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: times you'll see in heterosexual relationships men might be ready 297 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: to move on and wanted reignite that flame, whereas women 298 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: might not be ready to have sex for a while. Yeah, exactly. 299 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: And we should look at at partners, both both male 300 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: and female partners, when it comes to having a miscarriage 301 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: because traditionally, the feelings experienced by the partner tend to 302 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: be dismissed, both within the family and without. And studies 303 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: have shown that men are not satisfied with the support 304 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: they get from others. Nonetheless, research also has shown that 305 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: that men absolutely grieve these losses as well, but it 306 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: might not be as intense or as enduring as their partners, 307 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,159 Speaker 1: which is understandable because it's not as much of a 308 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: physical experience perhaps for them. Right. And study in the 309 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: Journal of Psychosomatic Research found that UM, for both men 310 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: and women in these situations, giving up their personal expectations, 311 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 1: hopes for and fantasies about out the unborn child is 312 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: a major source of grieving. Some men, on the other hand, 313 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: feel burdened, particularly by their wives grief or depressive reactions. 314 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 1: I'm sure, feeling helpless, not knowing what to do or say. 315 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: They can't say anything right exactly. I mean, there's no 316 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: way to to magically fix that situation. Um. And so 317 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 1: you see sort of gender stereotypical differences emerging in these 318 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: studies of how men tend to manage their grief compared 319 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: to women. For instance, one study published in the Journal 320 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 1: of Reproductive and Infant Psychology found that men might display 321 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: less what they call immediate active grief, but they might 322 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 1: also be more vulnerable to feelings of despair and difficulty coping, 323 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 1: probably because of a sense of helplessness. Right. And while 324 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 1: studies have shown that no matter how advanced the pregnancy is, 325 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,479 Speaker 1: the woman will likely feel the same sense of loss, 326 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,360 Speaker 1: for men, the more advanced it is, the greater their 327 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: sense of loss, the more it's almost like they're getting 328 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 1: to know this little person from the ultrasound on, whereas 329 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: the woman's sense of grief is heightened either way. Yeah, 330 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: and there have been similar studies on this conducted among 331 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: lesbian couples as well, and it finds for the non 332 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: pregnant lesbian partners similar feelings that that husbands or boyfriends 333 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 1: might experience in heterosexual relationships. Um for instance, in one 334 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: study talked about how often the response is, you know, 335 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: a sense of having not only lost the baby, but 336 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: also kind of having lost emotionally speaking, the partner, not 337 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: knowing how to sort of rebuild that connection. How do 338 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: you move forward from that? Right, and researcher Denuda m 339 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: Wasner said that lesbian couples do face kind of a 340 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 1: unique situation psychologically and emotionally in that they're gonna be 341 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: a lot of people who didn't approve of this union 342 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: and this pregnancy in the first place, So there might 343 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: even be a ratear lack of support for them in 344 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: this time. Well, they might have to go to greater 345 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: links as well to go about getting pregnant in the 346 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: first place. Right, and and that even ties in with 347 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 1: other studies that have shown that women who go through 348 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: like fertility treatments or IVF or something like that their 349 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: grief tends to be extended past the point of where 350 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: other women are starting to move on. Yeah, and and 351 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: I don't want to leave gay fathers out of the 352 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: equation as well, because I'm sure there can be a 353 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 1: similar process. For instance, if you're, you know, hoping to 354 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: adopt and that falls through. I mean, anytime you're going 355 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: to experience some kind of of loss of unexpected child, 356 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: we need to be able to to talk about it 357 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: into to grieve with them and for them, and allow 358 00:22:49,000 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: that process to happen. So the question would be, then, 359 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: you know, if you are the friend, what can you 360 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: do if you find out that that someone you know 361 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: has experienced a miscarriage. Well grief expert Robbie Miller Kaplan 362 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 1: stresses that a miscarriage is a death in the family, 363 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: and just like any death, the bereaved must grieve for 364 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 1: the loved ones they have lost. And so she says, 365 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: first it's really important to acknowledge the loss that your 366 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,959 Speaker 1: friend is experienced. Yeah, she says, you should treat your 367 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:27,679 Speaker 1: friend just like you would treat a loved one who 368 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: had who has had a family member die. Send flowers, 369 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: write a note, bring a meal, or just offered to 370 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,360 Speaker 1: visit and listen, you know, right, And she stresses that 371 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: when you're talking with your friend and listening to your 372 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: friend kind of repeat things back to him or her 373 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,360 Speaker 1: so that she or he knows you're listening, you're actually 374 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: taking it all in, and that they're being heard.