1
00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,560
Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with

2
00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:19,320
Speaker 1: me your girl Daniel Moody recording from the home Bunker. Folks,

3
00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:25,439
Speaker 1: look out your window, because apparently hell has in fact

4
00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:32,760
Speaker 1: frozen over. Mitch McConnell has said that he will step

5
00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:38,360
Speaker 1: down as the Republican leader in the Senate. While his

6
00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:42,879
Speaker 1: term does not finish until January twenty twenty seven, he

7
00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,360
Speaker 1: will not be seeking reelection, and he will be stepping

8
00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:52,839
Speaker 1: down in November as leader in the Senate. Let me

9
00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,760
Speaker 1: tell you something, as soon as I read that fucking headline,

10
00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,440
Speaker 1: I was like, bye, bitch, bye. As you you know,

11
00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:03,080
Speaker 1: because you've been listening to OKF for quite some time.

12
00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,920
Speaker 1: I cannot fucking stand Mitch McConnell. I think that Mitch

13
00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:16,880
Speaker 1: McConnell is indicative of everything that is wrong with America,

14
00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:23,200
Speaker 1: with white supremacy, with patriarchy, and with white men having power.

15
00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:26,839
Speaker 1: Mitch McConnell is the reason why we have a six

16
00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:31,080
Speaker 1: to three Trump Supreme Court. You know, when I think

17
00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:34,880
Speaker 1: about it now, and I posted a video yesterday talking

18
00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:41,360
Speaker 1: about his decision to step down, I get so fucking

19
00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:45,319
Speaker 1: angry sometimes when I think back to the Obama administration,

20
00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:50,160
Speaker 1: particularly the last term, where Barack Obama said that he

21
00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:55,760
Speaker 1: was choosing Merritgarland to be his Supreme Court nominee. Mitch

22
00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:58,520
Speaker 1: McConnell then decides, well, I'm not even going to give

23
00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:04,280
Speaker 1: you a hearing, and Barack Obama just says, okay, doesn't

24
00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,240
Speaker 1: decide to take Mitch McConnell to court, doesn't decide to

25
00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:12,520
Speaker 1: fight for his right as President of the United States

26
00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:17,240
Speaker 1: to seat a Supreme Court justice, and just fucking acquiesced

27
00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,440
Speaker 1: to that son of a bitch who would then not

28
00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:27,320
Speaker 1: only jam Brett Kavanaugh a fucking rapist down our throats,

29
00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:35,800
Speaker 1: but then also Cony Barrett. So when I think about

30
00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:41,320
Speaker 1: Barack Obama and that moment, that is just indicative of

31
00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:46,840
Speaker 1: how the Democratic Party has been. Republicans will pull every

32
00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:51,359
Speaker 1: single fucking punch that they can, just egging, just waiting.

33
00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,399
Speaker 1: You won't call my bluff, You gon'a try and take

34
00:02:55,400 --> 00:03:00,160
Speaker 1: me to the mats, and Democrats say no, no, no, no, oh,

35
00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:06,840
Speaker 1: it's okay, boss. Imagine where we would be right now.

36
00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,680
Speaker 1: It would still be, in all honesty, a five to

37
00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:15,520
Speaker 1: four court. Again, if Barack Obama had actually tried to

38
00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:19,520
Speaker 1: fight in court for his right to seat a Supreme

39
00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:24,400
Speaker 1: Court justice. And then when Joe Biden won the election

40
00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:29,720
Speaker 1: and Mitch McConnell decided to ram again Amy Cony Barrett

41
00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,600
Speaker 1: down our throats. If I'm Joe Biden and I'm coming

42
00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,160
Speaker 1: in and I'm saying, no, I won the election, you

43
00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,000
Speaker 1: do not have the right to seat this Supreme Court justice.

44
00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,680
Speaker 1: And I would have fucking fought it, because what do

45
00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,920
Speaker 1: you lose at the end of the day when you

46
00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:51,800
Speaker 1: fight for the country, our democracy, and the base, what

47
00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:55,600
Speaker 1: do you lose? You lose a whole lot when you

48
00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:59,120
Speaker 1: decide to try and compromise with the fucking devil that

49
00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:04,960
Speaker 1: laughs in your face. Republicans been playing in our faces

50
00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:10,560
Speaker 1: for the last fucking eight and nine years under trump Ism.

51
00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,360
Speaker 1: They were playing in our faces with the Tea Party

52
00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:21,599
Speaker 1: and the fucking Birther movement, and we don't take them

53
00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:25,320
Speaker 1: to the mats on these issues, and then look and

54
00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:29,040
Speaker 1: are surprised when our rights are taken away and rolled

55
00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,440
Speaker 1: back one fucking Supreme Court decision in one state at

56
00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:39,200
Speaker 1: a time. It is just as much Mitch McConnell's fucking fault.

57
00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,320
Speaker 1: But you know what he was going to do. He

58
00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:47,280
Speaker 1: was showing you. The Democrats decided to lay the fuck

59
00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:50,159
Speaker 1: down and thought that that made them look like, what

60
00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:55,359
Speaker 1: the bigger person, Fuck your bigger person. The country is

61
00:04:55,400 --> 00:05:00,880
Speaker 1: fucked because of it. So let me tell you something.

62
00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:05,960
Speaker 1: Mitch McConnell couldn't have announced his retirement soon enough. He

63
00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:11,080
Speaker 1: should have retired back in twenty twenty or twenty eighteen,

64
00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:16,160
Speaker 1: or I don't know, fucking six decades ago. Also, if

65
00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,520
Speaker 1: I'm the state of Kentucky and I'm looking around and

66
00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:21,359
Speaker 1: I'm looking at your education numbers and your healthcare numbers

67
00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:26,039
Speaker 1: and your obesity numbers, exactly what is it that Mitch

68
00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,479
Speaker 1: McConnell did for the state of Kentucky. Not a fucking thing.

69
00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,240
Speaker 1: You know. I saw a mean the other day that

70
00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:39,800
Speaker 1: was so accurate. It was so accurate when it said

71
00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:44,440
Speaker 1: the biggest trick that the Republican Party pulled off was

72
00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:48,039
Speaker 1: convincing the American electorate that the party that was trying

73
00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:53,039
Speaker 1: to give you healthcare, bodily autonomy, right, and access to

74
00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:59,400
Speaker 1: the vote were the bad guys. So, you know, good

75
00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:04,599
Speaker 1: riddance fucking Mitch McConnell. It clearly means if that motherfucker

76
00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:06,680
Speaker 1: is letting go of power, then he must be on

77
00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:13,559
Speaker 1: death's door and he couldn't get there soon enough. Coming

78
00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:18,520
Speaker 1: up next, dear friends, my conversation with our in house doctor,

79
00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,200
Speaker 1: our friend, doctor Jonathan Metzel. We are checking in with

80
00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:26,240
Speaker 1: him to see how his book tour is going. If

81
00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:29,920
Speaker 1: you have not gotten a copy of Jonathan's new book

82
00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,599
Speaker 1: that is a New York Times bestseller, that is in

83
00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,159
Speaker 1: the New York Times editors lists and editors picks What

84
00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:40,400
Speaker 1: We've Become, go out and get yourself a copy. That

85
00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:47,360
Speaker 1: conversation is coming up next, folks. I am so excited

86
00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,000
Speaker 1: to be back with our friend, our in house doctor,

87
00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:55,640
Speaker 1: doctor Jonathan Metzel, who's been doing the tour devorce around

88
00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,839
Speaker 1: the country with his new book, What We've Become. Jonathan,

89
00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:04,200
Speaker 1: So tell us you have been in all the places.

90
00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,680
Speaker 1: Tell us about some of the experiences, the conversations that

91
00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,560
Speaker 1: you have had, and what's coming up for people as

92
00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:11,960
Speaker 1: they as they read your book.

93
00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,000
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much. I'm so glad to be

94
00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,600
Speaker 2: back talking to you. I've missed you so much. It's

95
00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,440
Speaker 2: been it's been a whirlwind. The book was on the

96
00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:25,440
Speaker 2: cover of the New York Times Book Review and was

97
00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:27,720
Speaker 2: an editor's pick from the New York Times, and then

98
00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,320
Speaker 2: it just kind of took off from there, and so

99
00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,000
Speaker 2: it's been it's been fantastic. I've been just came back

100
00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:38,120
Speaker 2: from New Orleans last night. I'm actually doing my day

101
00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,080
Speaker 2: job here for a couple of days, which they want

102
00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:42,680
Speaker 2: me to show up and do every every once in

103
00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,760
Speaker 2: a while. And then I'm heading to Kansas City to

104
00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,360
Speaker 2: be a speaker at my old medical school, actually my

105
00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:51,680
Speaker 2: my my alma mater. And then I'm going to be

106
00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,360
Speaker 2: in North Carolina, and then I'm going to be back

107
00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:56,800
Speaker 2: here in Nashville doing a book club. And so it's

108
00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,680
Speaker 2: been a it's been a whirlwind, lots of different audiences.

109
00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,760
Speaker 2: It's interesting time to be out there talking about politics,

110
00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:07,920
Speaker 2: as you know, obviously as a non politician. But I'm finding,

111
00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,840
Speaker 2: you know, obviously that there's a lot of hunger out

112
00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,480
Speaker 2: there to talk about guns. And my book is about

113
00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:17,040
Speaker 2: guns and mass shootings and race, but it's obviously a

114
00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,680
Speaker 2: metaphor for a bunch of bigger issues also, and so

115
00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,320
Speaker 2: it's been great to have those conversations. The best one

116
00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,960
Speaker 2: by far was at green Light Bookstore in Brooklyn, New York,

117
00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,079
Speaker 2: where you and I had a lovely, amazing conversation. But

118
00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,680
Speaker 2: I'll post after this, I'll post to the show. Some

119
00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,520
Speaker 2: of the images I sent you yesterday because it's been great.

120
00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,680
Speaker 2: I was in d C talking to Neam Malika Henderson.

121
00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,280
Speaker 2: I was in Boston talking to Beth Novak. I did

122
00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,920
Speaker 2: a reading with my softball team in Brooklyn because we

123
00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,320
Speaker 2: lost a teammate two years ago now to gun violence.

124
00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,120
Speaker 2: And so it's just there's, you know, going out and

125
00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:01,360
Speaker 2: talking about this issue people relate to in very personal ways.

126
00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:06,920
Speaker 2: So parents of victims have come, conservatives have come, liberals

127
00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,600
Speaker 2: have come, tons of crazy people have come and so

128
00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,199
Speaker 2: and so it's been it's been I think it's been

129
00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,400
Speaker 2: good to have these kind of conversations. It's for me

130
00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:22,000
Speaker 2: reinforced my not what I know, which is that when

131
00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:26,440
Speaker 2: you get off of social media and off of cable news,

132
00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,880
Speaker 2: that you actually can have real conversations with people. So

133
00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,640
Speaker 2: that part's been really nice. And again the book is

134
00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:38,200
Speaker 2: quite provocative to conservatives but also to liberals, and so

135
00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:40,240
Speaker 2: the other I think interesting part of it is that

136
00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,480
Speaker 2: I was a bit nervous about what it would mean

137
00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:44,959
Speaker 2: to challenge liberal dogma out there, but that part has

138
00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:46,160
Speaker 2: been going really well.

139
00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:54,760
Speaker 1: Also, I think too, whenever I have the opportunity, which

140
00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:58,679
Speaker 1: is not often frankly, to get out and actually speak

141
00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,280
Speaker 1: to real life people and get a sense of what

142
00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,600
Speaker 1: the sentiments and feelings are on the ground. Like you said,

143
00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,000
Speaker 1: we're in really precarious times as it pertains to our politics.

144
00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:09,960
Speaker 1: You're not running for office, so you're not trying to

145
00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,560
Speaker 1: convince people you know, of something, But I mean you

146
00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,959
Speaker 1: are trying to shift their ideology around guns and how

147
00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:21,120
Speaker 1: we approach them. So what have been some of the

148
00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,960
Speaker 1: thoughts that people have offered that have, you know, maybe

149
00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,680
Speaker 1: kind of give you pause, or thoughts that they have

150
00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,840
Speaker 1: offered where you're just like, Okay, maybe we are making

151
00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:30,880
Speaker 1: some headway here.

152
00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,360
Speaker 2: I'll give you the opposite and then I'll answer that question.

153
00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:36,800
Speaker 2: But the opposite for me, as people who've read the

154
00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,559
Speaker 2: book now, I challenge the idea that's kind of core

155
00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:43,440
Speaker 2: knowledge in the Democratic Party that guns are a public

156
00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,040
Speaker 2: health emergency. I mean, they are a public health emergency.

157
00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:51,120
Speaker 2: But I argue that what we're doing is not going

158
00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,439
Speaker 2: to get us anywhere because things like background checks and

159
00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,560
Speaker 2: red flag laws, if they're the core of our entire agenda,

160
00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:00,680
Speaker 2: we're not going to shift some of the bigger things

161
00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,080
Speaker 2: that are happening to us about the other side using

162
00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,040
Speaker 2: the gun issue to put judges in place, and to

163
00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,080
Speaker 2: for me, a huge issue is we have no real

164
00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,480
Speaker 2: answer to permitless carry, which is the story of the

165
00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:18,840
Speaker 2: story of the book. And so as much as I

166
00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:20,960
Speaker 2: think background checks and read flag laws and all those

167
00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,319
Speaker 2: things are important, I feel like they're always going to

168
00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,120
Speaker 2: be protest issues against authority if we don't have a

169
00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:31,120
Speaker 2: theory of power. And conversely, the Republicans or the NRA

170
00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:35,200
Speaker 2: or whoever for them, guns is a conduit to power.

171
00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,920
Speaker 2: And so I really am trying to say that, Now

172
00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,439
Speaker 2: that's a hard thing for people to hear, sometimes, certainly

173
00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:48,200
Speaker 2: people who have been involved in gun violence themselves. You know,

174
00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:49,840
Speaker 2: I try to be very clear. I'm not saying guns

175
00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,559
Speaker 2: are not a public health issue. It's just that framing

176
00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,120
Speaker 2: them as a public health issue is not going to

177
00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:58,800
Speaker 2: give us the kind of power to counter the power

178
00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,640
Speaker 2: of the controlling the Supreme Court and things like that

179
00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,240
Speaker 2: that we need actually a different strategy. But that's very

180
00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:08,240
Speaker 2: personal for a lot of people. So that part has

181
00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:12,280
Speaker 2: been I think hard and productive. You know, I always

182
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,360
Speaker 2: urge people to please read the book, because it's not

183
00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:16,800
Speaker 2: like I'm saying I don't believe in gun laws. I

184
00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:21,040
Speaker 2: just think that they're always going to be for structural reasons,

185
00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,520
Speaker 2: a protest against power if we don't have a model

186
00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,360
Speaker 2: of power. Also, so that part has been hard. But

187
00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:29,600
Speaker 2: I would also say that there are just a lot

188
00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:33,560
Speaker 2: of people who have a lot of and maybe this

189
00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,280
Speaker 2: is how politics works, but a lot of alliance, a

190
00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:41,320
Speaker 2: lot of alliance to the kind of every town line,

191
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,920
Speaker 2: which is background checks or a flag laws, all these

192
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:46,640
Speaker 2: kind of things. And so for that there's been a

193
00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,720
Speaker 2: lot of pushback from the left in a way that

194
00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:51,760
Speaker 2: is like, you can't say that because that's not what

195
00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,600
Speaker 2: you know, that's not our position. So that part has

196
00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:56,280
Speaker 2: been hard. But I would like to think that the

197
00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:01,240
Speaker 2: hard times are the I would like to think that

198
00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:05,640
Speaker 2: the hard times are the ones that are the most

199
00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,080
Speaker 2: you know, when you challenge people, that's when the real

200
00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:11,360
Speaker 2: conversation happens. So I would say that that would probably

201
00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:12,000
Speaker 2: be my answer.

202
00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,280
Speaker 1: And I wonder too, like, as you are going around

203
00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:22,160
Speaker 1: the country now talking about your book, where you think

204
00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:30,240
Speaker 1: that gun violence gun reform ranks in Biden's reelection campaign,

205
00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,200
Speaker 1: like where you know, where do you think that those

206
00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,079
Speaker 1: conversations are they being had? Are they being had enough?

207
00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,480
Speaker 1: And frankly, are they being discussed in the right way.

208
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:46,439
Speaker 2: Well, they matter a lot to Biden's reelection campaign for

209
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:48,960
Speaker 2: the reason I talk about in the book, which is

210
00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,760
Speaker 2: that Trump went to the NRA and he said, nobody's

211
00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,679
Speaker 2: going to touch your guns, I'm and so he told

212
00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,000
Speaker 2: people they could keep their guns and keep their power.

213
00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,880
Speaker 2: And that's what NRA people like to hear, and they

214
00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,280
Speaker 2: vote on this one hundred percent of the time. Like

215
00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:08,040
Speaker 2: I show that Republicans vote because of Trump's line on guns,

216
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,000
Speaker 2: but Democrats don't vote based on gun related issues. And

217
00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:18,920
Speaker 2: so our line is based in regulation and common sense

218
00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,880
Speaker 2: laws and trust in public health and mandates. But that

219
00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,320
Speaker 2: doesn't drive Democrats to the polls. And so even if

220
00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,240
Speaker 2: people don't vote on guns as a wedge issue, which

221
00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,000
Speaker 2: it shows is not the case with Democrats, they vote

222
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,480
Speaker 2: on other things. But you can be sure that Trump

223
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:36,280
Speaker 2: voters are going to be voting on guns as a

224
00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,520
Speaker 2: wedge issue. And so that's part of the issue. Is

225
00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:40,720
Speaker 2: I'm not saying everybody needs to vote on guns. People

226
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,920
Speaker 2: vote on a bunch of different issues. But I would

227
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:47,000
Speaker 2: just say that whether or not it's an issue for Biden,

228
00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,080
Speaker 2: it certainly is going to be a driver for Trump voters,

229
00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,160
Speaker 2: and so we need to at least recognize.

230
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:56,880
Speaker 1: That, you know, I'm wondering, Jonathan, Like you know that

231
00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,960
Speaker 1: we have several months right now between now and November,

232
00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,920
Speaker 1: and sadly, in the way that things work in America,

233
00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,960
Speaker 1: I'm certain that there'll be multiple mass shootings that will happen.

234
00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:12,000
Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure. And you tell me, because I

235
00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:16,720
Speaker 1: know that there are conversations around how we measure mass

236
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,000
Speaker 1: shootings now because there are so many that how we

237
00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,800
Speaker 1: measure them needs to change. But I'm wondering. You know,

238
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:28,080
Speaker 1: we also know that the former head of the NRA

239
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,920
Speaker 1: was just charged, you know, with massive amounts of fraud

240
00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:38,360
Speaker 1: here in New York. How does any of these things like,

241
00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,320
Speaker 1: I don't know, Like, like I believe Democrats are not

242
00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:46,040
Speaker 1: single issue voters, and we have so many things that

243
00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,560
Speaker 1: are coming at us right now, and I think that

244
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,600
Speaker 1: there is a sense of being worn out. But like

245
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,800
Speaker 1: in your mind obviously, you know, you just laid out

246
00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,560
Speaker 1: the difference between Biden and Trump. But I'm just like wondering,

247
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,840
Speaker 1: outside of the headlines, do you think that guns are

248
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:06,320
Speaker 1: front of mind for people?

249
00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,840
Speaker 2: As you know from my time piece, I think the

250
00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,600
Speaker 2: bigger issue with guns isn't just about guns. It's about

251
00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,040
Speaker 2: the threat they present to democracy and democratic governance that

252
00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,480
Speaker 2: gun politics do. And so I would say that whether

253
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,520
Speaker 2: or not Democrats feel like, oh guns is my issue,

254
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,040
Speaker 2: and I'm going to go to the poll based on guns,

255
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,000
Speaker 2: which is true for some people and not for other people.

256
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,720
Speaker 2: Your future freedom depends on what's going to happen in

257
00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,240
Speaker 2: that election. And there are ways in which the Republicans

258
00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,080
Speaker 2: mobilize around the gun issue. And I'll give you an example.

259
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:45,520
Speaker 2: We get are furious after mass shootings. We protest after

260
00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,560
Speaker 2: mass shootings, we demand change after mass shootings. The Republicans

261
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:54,160
Speaker 2: don't do that. But South Carolina and Louisiana now are

262
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:59,760
Speaker 2: passing what's called constitutional carry, permitless carry. We now have

263
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,000
Speaker 2: the states in the country. Pretty soon here they're going

264
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:09,440
Speaker 2: to allow people to carry guns without any training, any permit. Now,

265
00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,399
Speaker 2: the story I tell in the book is how permitless

266
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,600
Speaker 2: carry makes it impossible to stop mass shootings, but it

267
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,120
Speaker 2: also creates a kind of sense of lawlessness. I mean,

268
00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,199
Speaker 2: these guys know that flooding guns into cities leads to

269
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,440
Speaker 2: more crime, and then they point to crime as an issue.

270
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,360
Speaker 2: And so in a way, while we're out there protesting,

271
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,880
Speaker 2: the Republicans have been the cops with n RA is

272
00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,040
Speaker 2: probably important. But the fact that we're not focusing enough

273
00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,640
Speaker 2: on the rise of just armed people in society right now.

274
00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:43,359
Speaker 2: That's what happened to the Kansas City Super Bowl parade.

275
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,800
Speaker 2: I was going to say, yep, you know, two guys

276
00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:48,840
Speaker 2: got in a shooting and then nine hundred other people

277
00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:52,920
Speaker 2: whipped out their guns. And so in a way, the

278
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,320
Speaker 2: Republicans are using the gun issue to change society, to

279
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,160
Speaker 2: change how people feel about the public square, to change

280
00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,920
Speaker 2: how people trust each other. And so I just think

281
00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,119
Speaker 2: I agree. I mean, people are going to vote for

282
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,920
Speaker 2: Gaza or for climate, or for age, or for they

283
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:14,520
Speaker 2: love Robert F. Kennedy Junior or whatever, you know, like

284
00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,320
Speaker 2: they're going to vote for a bunch of crazy, weird

285
00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:22,440
Speaker 2: reasons or real reasons or urgent reasons. But but the

286
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:27,480
Speaker 2: issue is we're up against an opponent that is not

287
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,679
Speaker 2: not broad like that, Like the opponent is going to

288
00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,119
Speaker 2: base vote. Guns is one of the court issues that

289
00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,119
Speaker 2: people are going to vote on, and so it's not

290
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:36,960
Speaker 2: you know, I just think we need to be a

291
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,720
Speaker 2: lot more disciplined in the face of what it suggests

292
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,440
Speaker 2: about what we're up against. Does that make sense?

293
00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:45,560
Speaker 1: Yeah? And I you know, I just want to go

294
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:49,640
Speaker 1: back to something that you said, which was, you know

295
00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,639
Speaker 1: that the Republicans they're using the gun issue as a

296
00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,840
Speaker 1: way to change our relationship with guns. And I would

297
00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,720
Speaker 1: argue there was something that I saw earlier this week

298
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:05,320
Speaker 1: in Texas, for instance, where Greg Gabbott is, you know,

299
00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:11,320
Speaker 1: creating a policy that essentially has people turn in their neighbors,

300
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,879
Speaker 1: right like, has people turn on their neighbors as it

301
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:20,520
Speaker 1: pertains to their like potential immigration status or what have you.

302
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,960
Speaker 1: And it's really what I realize from that is that

303
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,800
Speaker 1: like the whole love thy neighbor part of you know,

304
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:32,280
Speaker 1: Christianity and the Bible is lost on these people. There

305
00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,280
Speaker 1: is no love thy neighbor. It's fear thy neighbor. It's

306
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,080
Speaker 1: you know, turn on thy neighbor. And I'm wondering for you, like,

307
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:47,639
Speaker 1: how does the proliferation of guns really go hand in

308
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,040
Speaker 1: hand with our lack of ability to build community with

309
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:55,280
Speaker 1: other with people outside of that look like us, you

310
00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:57,760
Speaker 1: know that are considered quote unquote other.

311
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,760
Speaker 2: But also it's got you know, you go into the

312
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:06,240
Speaker 2: public square mistrusting people fearing the worst, pulling out your

313
00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:11,040
Speaker 2: gun just in case. And so it certainly has tribalizing

314
00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,840
Speaker 2: functions that are very self perpetuating. But the other thing

315
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,879
Speaker 2: is I write about in that time piece is like,

316
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,840
Speaker 2: because of the Bruined decision, it's also incredibly anti democratic

317
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:27,280
Speaker 2: And by that I mean that By that, I mean

318
00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:32,720
Speaker 2: that people have voted for gun policies in places like Oregon,

319
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:38,600
Speaker 2: for example, or Virginia, but the judges now can overturn

320
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,440
Speaker 2: the will of the voters because of the Bruined decision,

321
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,399
Speaker 2: And so it's also a model for anti democracy because

322
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,280
Speaker 2: people vote for safety laws that can then be overturned.

323
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:53,040
Speaker 2: So Republicans are also using the gun issue to put

324
00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,159
Speaker 2: power in their lifetime appointed judges in a way that

325
00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,080
Speaker 2: overturns the will of the voters in ways that I

326
00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 2: think is another big issue obviously this if this whole

327
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,639
Speaker 2: election is about democracy, guns are a really core component

328
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,800
Speaker 2: to that and people. So hopefully for people who read

329
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:10,119
Speaker 2: the book, they'll see what I mean. But I have

330
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:11,920
Speaker 2: a lot of very concrete examples of that.

331
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:22,480
Speaker 1: What are your hopes for this book and how it

332
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,520
Speaker 1: shapes our conversations moving forward, Like there is a sense

333
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:28,560
Speaker 1: and I you know, we talk about this all the

334
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,840
Speaker 1: time here of just hopelessness around this issue that just

335
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,160
Speaker 1: continues to get worse. Republicans get more savvy. You're laying

336
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,639
Speaker 1: out all the ways in which you know, they have

337
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,920
Speaker 1: increased gun proliferation and changed the laws and bought the

338
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 1: judges and done all the things. And so for a

339
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,879
Speaker 1: lot of people, as they're listening to this, they're just like,

340
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 1: fuck it, it's a lost cause, you know, And so

341
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 1: I want like, so yeah, so please.

342
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,119
Speaker 2: The rebindless is true for every issue, but the twenty

343
00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 2: four election honestly is make or break for this issue.

344
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,879
Speaker 2: You I think that if we win the twenty four election,

345
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 2: we have the ability to totally upend the American gun debate.

346
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,679
Speaker 2: It's not you know, my students think it's about are

347
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 2: you four against the Second Amendment? That you know we're

348
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:20,960
Speaker 2: thirty years past that. It's really can we invest and

349
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 2: rebuild in community infrastructure in ways that make people feel

350
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:27,440
Speaker 2: safe and like they don't need to carry a gun

351
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 2: every time they need the house? Leave the house? So

352
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,240
Speaker 2: I think, you know, that will depend on who's sitting

353
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,159
Speaker 2: on the Supreme Court. It depends on who's sitting in

354
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,920
Speaker 2: all the other judge, judge ships. I just think power

355
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:44,159
Speaker 2: will create the ability to change that conversation. And so

356
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:48,160
Speaker 2: the stakes of this coming election, like for everything else,

357
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,639
Speaker 2: could not possibly be higher. I just think that people,

358
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 2: you know, people's great grandchildren will bear the implications of

359
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 2: whether we have nine NRA Supreme Court judges or we

360
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,360
Speaker 2: whether we take back power on the Supreme Court, for example,

361
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 2: And so guns are obviously one part of that story,

362
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 2: but I think a pretty considerable one.

363
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,479
Speaker 1: So you, I mean, you come at this from an

364
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 1: angle of we need to change course, but you still have,

365
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,880
Speaker 1: what I hear in your voice, a sense of hopefulness

366
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,439
Speaker 1: that like there is still fight to be had, and

367
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 1: I think that, and I think, but you know, and

368
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:26,199
Speaker 1: I want to I want you to talk about that

369
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,399
Speaker 1: because I think that where this issue but a whole

370
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: host of issues where people are feeling, you know, drained,

371
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,160
Speaker 1: and they're just like there is no hope. Every every

372
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 1: day is another horrible headline. Every day is another policy

373
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 1: that's being passed that goes against the will of the people.

374
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 1: But Republicans don't care.

375
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 2: Well, here's the thing. We have an ability, like you know,

376
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 2: a year from now, we won't have the opportunity that

377
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 2: we have now one way or another, so we actually

378
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 2: have an election where we have a say in how

379
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 2: things are going to play out. Now. I understand a

380
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 2: lot of people are not thrilled with the two options,

381
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 2: but there is I think Charles Blow was right about

382
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 2: this over the weekend on Instagram. We have a really

383
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,199
Speaker 2: clear decision about the future of our country. There are

384
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 2: two very radical decisions and directions. And not that like

385
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 2: anyone is perfect, but these are the two decisions that

386
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 2: we have, the two directions that we have, and so

387
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 2: I think that either we're going to either we're going

388
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 2: to kind of keep working towards the project that we're on,

389
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,679
Speaker 2: or the whole thing is going to kind of evaporate.

390
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 2: And so at least right now, I'm optimistic because we

391
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,679
Speaker 2: have a voice right now. And as you know, I

392
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,160
Speaker 2: have a lot of I have a lot of liberal

393
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,159
Speaker 2: friends in Israel. And it's funny, but I was in

394
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 2: Israel before Nitta Yah was elected and they were feeling like,

395
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 2: oh my god, we're going through this again. We're exhausted.

396
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 2: The problem in Israel was the other side, the right

397
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 2: evil side in Israel, was totally mobilized, and so what

398
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 2: happened in the Israel election, and I'll tell you why

399
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 2: I'm telling you this, But what happened in Israel election

400
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:13,479
Speaker 2: was that the left voted in the same numbers that

401
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 2: they had for every election, kind of their average sixty

402
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 2: one percent, but the right voted seventy nine percent, totally energized,

403
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 2: and Nitanya, who has overtaken the courts, got the country

404
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 2: into a war, threatened the existence of the entire country,

405
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,360
Speaker 2: all these kind of things. And so when I talked

406
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 2: to my friends in Israel now, they're like, oh my god,

407
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 2: I wish we would have done more. We felt so

408
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 2: blase before this election, and it cost us everything, including

409
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 2: like our essets, our existence. And for me that talking

410
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 2: to the guys like that, it's just such a it's

411
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 2: such a wake up call for me, because it's kind

412
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 2: of like the left kind of figured, well, we need

413
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,640
Speaker 2: to shake things up. I don't trust the people I'm against.

414
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 2: But being detached was the strategy of the right. They

415
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 2: wanted the people on the left to feel like it

416
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 2: doesn't really matter, your vote doesn't matter. And I feel

417
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 2: like the same thing's being done to the left here.

418
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 2: And again I just always think back, I have a

419
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 2: piece I'm writing about it now. Interviewing Israeli leftists a

420
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 2: month after that Nitan Yahoo election, and they were in

421
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 2: shock about what it meant for their lives. They realized

422
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,719
Speaker 2: this is going to lead to a war and international

423
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 2: isolation and the end of their rights. But even in

424
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 2: a place like Israel, where people are pretty attuned with democracy,

425
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 2: the strategy of telling people their vote didn't matter was

426
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 2: really effective. And I feel like the same thing is

427
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 2: being done here. I really do feel like, who, you know,

428
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 2: there's obviously very real issues. I'm not trying to step

429
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 2: away from that. But the strategy of convincing people their

430
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 2: vote doesn't matter is what's being pumped across social media

431
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 2: to everybody right now. And the question is how we're

432
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 2: going to mobilize around them.

433
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. And the funny thing is, and you know, we'll

434
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: close on this, is that you know, in twenty sixteen,

435
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:02,360
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, in twenty sixteen, twenty eighteen, twenty twenty,

436
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,679
Speaker 1: and you know, and twenty twenty two we've had the

437
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 1: highest turnout we've ever had, right Like, So it's a

438
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 1: point of yes, that is their strategy, but the people

439
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 1: of this country have also been responding every year since

440
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 1: with their action and their turnout at the polls, and

441
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: so I don't want that to be lost on people

442
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 1: as well as always, my friend Johnathan, We're so happy,

443
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: proud and excited for you and this book. We wish

444
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 1: you continued success as you continue your tour.

445
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 2: Really, thank you so much. And let me just say

446
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 2: that some listeners to the show reached out to ask

447
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 2: if I would do a book club, and I would

448
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,919
Speaker 2: be delighted anytime anybody wants to just let me know,

449
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 2: but if you're if you're a WOKF listener, I would

450
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 2: be delighted to do a book club.

451
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 1: Absolutely wonderful. Thank you. That is it for me today,

452
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 1: dear friends on Woke a F as always, Power to

453
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: the people and to all the people. Power, get woke

454
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: and stay woke as fuck. MHM.