WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 4 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.119 I'm Tanya sam Post of the Money Moves Podcast powered 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:06.000 by Greenwood. This daily podcast will help give you the 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:09.360 keys to the Kingdom of financial stability, wealth and abundance 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:12.800 with celebrity guests like Rick Ross, Amanda Sille's, Angela Ye, 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:15.960 Roland Martin, JB. Smooth, and Terrell Owens. Tune in to 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:18.759 learn how to turn liabilities into assets and make your 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:23.479 money moves up and fold party. Subscribe to the Money 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.040 Moves Podcast powered by Greenwan on the I Heart Radio 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:28.960 app or wherever you get your podcasts, and make sure 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:33.520 you leave a review. The art world it is essentially 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:37.479 a money laundering business. The best fakes are still hanging 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:40.519 on people's walls. You know they don't even know or 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:44.040 suspect that their fakes. I'm out like Baldwin and this 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:48.559 is a podcast about deception, greed and forgery in the 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:52.360 art world. I just walked in and saw this bright 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:57.560 red painting presuming to be a Rothko. Of course, art 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:01.400 forgeries only happen because there's need to be made a 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:04.840 lot of money. I'm listening to what they're paying for 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:08.679 each thing. It was an incredible MANSI money. You knew 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:15.520 the painting was fake Listen to Art Fraud starting February 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:20.040 one on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:30.720 wherever you get your podcasts. Get all the Real Housewives 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:33.360 to you need on the podcast to Teas in a 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:36.839 pod join ex Housewives Teddy Mellencamp and tam Or Judge 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:40.360 as they watch recap Armchair Quarterback and break down all 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:44.000 things from the hit reality TV franchise. This team tells 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:46.600 it like it is. Each week, we're gonna be recapping 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:50.720 whatever housewife is currently airing. Lucky for Tamra, we're gonna 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:53.680 start Oh My God with Orange County. Listen to two 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:55.640 Teas in a pod on the I Heart Radio app, 0:01:55.760 --> 0:02:00.000 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:02.200 Robert Evans here and I wanted to let you know 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:05.920 this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:09.720 week that just happened is here in one convenient and 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:13.040 with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:15.400 in a long stretch if you want. If you've been 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:17.600 listening to the episodes every day this week, there's gonna 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:19.680 be nothing new here for you, But you can make 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:25.400 your own decisions, all right, Welcome to it could happen 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:28.520 here a podcast that is about fifty of the time 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:30.680 introduced well and about fifty percent of the time us 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:34.920 talking about how we're bad at introductions, and today it 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:38.280 is it is just be Christopher, but with me is 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:42.840 Hadley and Mike from Labelia Commons, who are here to 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:46.959 talk about many things, one of which is there is 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:51.280 the first edition of the earth Bound Farmers Almanac. Hey, 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:53.320 how how are you two doing today? I heard I 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:56.640 heard there's maybe a thunderstorm rolling in. Yeah, we're doing 0:02:56.680 --> 0:02:59.399 pretty good. Um, it's gonna be glad for the rain, 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:05.000 I guess, yeah, yeah, it'll be good. We're gonna talk 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:07.760 a little bit first about Labilia Commons. So how did 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:09.520 that project start? I know, I know was something from 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:11.799 the beginning of the pandemic, but had you all been 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:14.519 working on this kind of stuff before? And yeah, I 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:18.040 just wanted roasty a little bit of that. Yeah, So 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:23.880 it kind of started um last year during the pandemic. Basically, UM. 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:26.679 Basically at the beginning of the pandemic, we had UM 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:29.639 that's like a surge of interest in these like kind 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:33.960 of mutual a groups UM and the largest of which 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:37.000 that formed in New Orleans specifically, which some of us 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:39.600 helped form was called New Orleans Mutual, a group which 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:43.800 was doing like food distribution. It kind of stemmed out 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:46.600 of a project that was already UM running like a 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:50.640 food share, basically getting excess produce that was coming into 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:53.840 the port and distributing it for free in front of 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:57.480 like one of the gentrifying grocery stores. UM. But within 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:01.640 like I want to say, like a couple of weeks UM, 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:05.680 there was such a surge of interest in doing that 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:08.600 type of like volunteer or whatever UM where that there 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:10.920 was like a ton of labor to make it happen. 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:15.800 And that basically meant buying tons of produce eventually because 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:18.720 the ports eventually shut down and there wasn't any produce 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:21.320 coming from anywhere at the beginning of the the pandemic, and 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:25.320 that basically buying tons of produce from like costco and 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:29.240 that labor meant like waiting in lines for you know, 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:33.200 wrapping around entire like massive like multi city block where 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:38.440 the house stores. UM. And so that was basically doing 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:43.159 like food distribution. So we took the opportunity to since 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:46.440 there was so much labor happening, that we could go 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:49.719 and start to adjust the question of like food production 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:54.080 specifically and and try and do that in interesting ways. UM. So, 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:57.159 we felt like it was pretty important to start like 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:00.600 experimenting and different forms of food product chain and like 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:05.640 like ways of relating to food production. UM So, I 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:09.839 mean this first started with like a, um, we're basically 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:13.080 just starting tons of seeds and delivering them all over 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:17.120 the city, um, just driving around from we had like 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:19.799 one centralized nursery that was run out of a warehouse 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:24.080 um and that was a ton of labor as a 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:28.680 really time consuming. It was super centralized, and so we 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:34.120 moved from that into a number of other projects. Um. 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:37.880 Short shortly thereafter, we put together like a like a 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:42.720 collaborative mushroom production group where we were um getting people 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:47.159 who had been growing mushrooms and teaching folks and she 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:51.839 like doing skill shares to produce oyster mushrooms out of buckets. 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:57.599 We started doing some like woodlock production of Chautaukis, which 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:02.240 has like since expanded pretty dramatically. Um And yeah, just 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:05.840 like kind of like things that that draw people's interests 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:09.159 like that, and and and think about like how you 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:13.040 can grow food in an urban or peri urban scenario 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:20.039 fairly interestingly and like with joy um. Also, um. You know, 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:23.840 after this, we we were reached out to by folks 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:26.480 that were like, well, I want to grow herbs, and 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:32.160 rather than specifically getting like a lot and covering it 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:39.120 in different herbal medicines, we reached out had already had 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:42.599 folks reaching out to us. UM. So someone came up 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:44.960 with the idea of, well, let's just all grow in 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:48.200 our backyard stuns of herbs, and let's find herbs that 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:52.880 already grow abundantly around us to kind of collectively share 0:06:52.920 --> 0:07:00.160 the experience of harvesting and um and turning those into medicines. UM. 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:02.520 And so now there's like this Herb Commons group that 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:07.840 the labor is distributed. It's distributed geographically, um, but there's 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:12.040 these like meet ups where they're bulk curbs are given up, Yeah, 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:17.600 given out just like in a canal space and um. Yeah, 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:20.800 like there's skill shares happening there. And and so there's 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:24.880 kind of some community being built around that. Um that 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:28.360 that happens in a very decentralized manner. Yeah, it's definitely 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:31.760 very decentralized. There are working groups that are part of 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:35.560 Lobelia Commons that I'm like, not entirely sure what they're 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:38.320 doing any given day or you know, what's going on. 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:42.000 I'm involved in like a couple particular projects within it UM, 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:44.520 and I think that it's really flexible for folks who 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:46.520 are trying to get involved. They can kind of be 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:50.560 involved at whatever level they want. Like, um, if somebody 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:52.840 doesn't want to go to a bunch of garden work 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:54.960 days or a bunch of meetings or something, which you 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:56.600 know are have been a great way for us to 0:07:56.680 --> 0:07:59.400 like see each other and see our friends during the 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:01.400 pandemic and stuff, is to get together for these work 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:04.240 days outdoors or whatnot. But if somebody wants to just 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:07.720 like do nothing but sprout plants at their own house 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:11.080 and then somebody will come pick up those seedlings and 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:14.200 and you know bring them to one of our decentralized 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:17.360 nursery spots, that's great. Um. That's one of the other 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:20.880 kind of projects we have we call the decentralized nursery, 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:24.239 And that's kind of like just something that people already 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:26.960 do at a certain time of year. You know, gardeners 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:29.720 will regularly start more plants than they need and then 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:31.960 just kind of give them away to friends and neighbors 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:34.920 and stuff. And we tried to just make it a 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:37.520 little bit more of an intentional thing. Um. And this 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:39.959 was also kind of growing out of like at the 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:42.200 very beginning of the pandemic, and we were actually doing 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:45.880 seedling deliveries to people, which made sense of that time, 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:48.920 but it was like very labor intensive. Um. So we 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:51.240 kind of moved to this model of having just like 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:55.960 free stands in front of houses on street corners in 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:59.120 different places. Um. You know, there's already like a bunch 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:01.240 of free fridges around New Orleans and things like that, 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:03.640 and so this is kind of like the free plant 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:05.960 version of that, and it's really easy for somebody to 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:09.400 just set one up, um. And then that kind of 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:13.520 also allows us to like work on this other aspect 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:17.240 of of decentralizing food production, because like that's definitely one 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:19.600 of our goals, right is to like not have a 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:22.000 tiny percentage of the population be the only ones who 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:25.000 know how to grow food and giving it under the 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:28.040 control of the tiny number of corporations that own all 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:29.600 the land. And you know, obviously we're trying to get 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:31.839 away from that food system, and so one of the 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:35.000 ways we can think about doing that is finding ways 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:39.640 to really decentralize some of the skills that are UM 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:42.280 that are necessary. So for example, like if somebody's growing 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:47.240 avocados for our nurseries, UM, the thing about growing an 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:52.040 avocado from a pit actually is that, uh, that tree 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:57.880 probably won't produce fruit. It actually needs to be grafted. UM. 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:01.360 So we can have people starting pits, and then we're 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:05.679 also you know, sharing the knowledge of how to graph 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:10.640 these things, UM because we kind of like see a 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:14.480 future in which a lot more people um will need 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:18.319 to be involved in food production. But also, like Mike 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:21.480 was saying, like, we want this to be not like 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:23.720 a job that it feels like people have, but this 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:28.440 joyous kind of thing that's just a part of everyday life. Yeah. 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:30.400 One of the other things that I was I was 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:33.960 interested in is you know, so so part of part 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:38.720 of what I think the beginning of the Earth Performers 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:43.240 Romanac is about is talking about how I guess people 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:46.200 people have this tendency to sort of focus on climate 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:48.560 change is just like the only sort of climate thing 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:51.959 that's happening. And you know, I mean there's obviously the yeah, 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:54.680 there's there's a bunch of sort of stuff that is 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:56.960 climate change, But isn't the weather that are sort of 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:58.800 you know, things like the phosphor cycle, things like the 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:03.079 nitrogen cycle that are breaking. But simultaneously, I think it's 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:07.600 it's also true that you know that that that kind 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:10.400 of stuff, and this is also something that's that's talked 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:12.360 about in there is is going to have a large 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:15.120 impact both on sort of like even just what what 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:17.920 kind of biomas exist in the inner very short term. 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:21.600 And you know, another product of that is, you know 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:24.160 it is that the sort of increasing rate of storms. 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:25.760 And I was wondering if you all could talk a 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:30.920 bit about what happened after Ida and how both just 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:32.720 sort of in the short term in the long term, 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:35.080 that the sort of the increase of just hurricanes. And 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:37.880 I hesitate to call natural disasters because you know that 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:40.200 there's there's a whole thing about how these disasters are 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:42.679 sort of manufactured in a lot of ways, but how 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:46.240 how that's been affecting how y'all think are thinking about 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:49.199 and working with these kind of mutual aid projects and 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:55.080 food production. Yeah. So I think with IDA, it's kind 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:57.920 of complicated because, um, you can almost look at it, 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:02.199 look at it as like two different storms. Um, because 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:04.560 what happened in New Orleans versus what happened and say 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:09.079 like um Homa or the river parishes, UM, these areas 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:13.679 that are you know, generally south and west of New Orleans, 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:18.440 UM are are are kind of like two different UH 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:21.440 animals in some ways, like what happened in New Orleans 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:24.720 specifically relates to infrastructure. So like what you're saying, like 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:30.240 the kind of quote unquote natural disasters thing that's UM, 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:33.000 you know, that's a pretty commonplace way of looking. I mean, 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:35.839 it's not a very radical UM conception that like these 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:40.280 aren't natural disasters wherever the disasters is created. As soon 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:44.920 as UM there was the attempt to create a colonial 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:48.440 New Orleans in the first place. UM. So this became 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:52.439 honestly part of like national discourse as a result of Katrina, 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.560 most famously because of the Army corp of Engineers failure 0:12:56.040 --> 0:13:00.920 UM teven five and UM so what happened this year 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:05.520 UM was with with Hurricane Ida was one of the 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:10.920 main transmission towers UM for the the energy Energy Corporation 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:14.600 in New Worlds is called energy outside of the Gulf 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:17.480 South aren't familiar with. So the entergy tower fell into 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:20.480 the Mississippi River. You had that happening at the same 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:23.760 time that thousands of power lines fell down. The power 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:27.920 lines are are are on poles and very prone to 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:31.240 getting knocked down even just during the during any day 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:34.480 of the week, UM. And so there wasn't actually really 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:37.880 much flooding UM that was happening. It was it was 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:40.920 primarily wind damage. So that the tower falls into the river, 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:44.760 power lines down. You had something like I believe fifty 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:48.720 five barges in the Port of South Louisiana falling into 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:52.040 their falling off their moorings and floating around just crashing 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:55.400 into things, just crashing Like there's like several ferries that 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:58.000 connect the east and west banks of the city. Um, 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:01.320 those fell off their mornings. So, so like the physical 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:04.640 infrastructure of the place and and how that relates to 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:07.360 beyond New Orleans is New Orleans is located at the 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:11.960 very um southern reach of the Mississippi Rivers Port of 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:15.000 South Southern Louisiana, which is like a fifty five mile 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:20.040 port I believe a fifty two port um that processes 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:22.640 like six of all U S grain going to exports. 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:26.800 So it's like a massive, really really important piece of 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:32.440 American capitalist infrastructure. So that when when those boats follow 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.760 their mornings. It's not like, oh this like whatever quaint 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:42.480 like byou problem. It's a very serious imperial problem. UM. 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:46.960 But so for for the average person living in New Orleans, UM, 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:49.560 this looked like I think I think it ended up 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:52.280 being for most people around a week and a half 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:56.120 without power, which if anyone's lived even with air conditioning 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:59.600 in New Orleans for a summer, UM, it's it's extremely 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:03.640 difficult to live here during the summer. UM. It's that 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:07.240 it's obviously not impossible when we have modern amenities, but 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:09.760 when you're when you're without those, when you without the refrigerator, 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:13.800 when we throughout without new freezer air conditioning, it's it's 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:18.680 really really really hot, um. You know. So that's what 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:21.280 was happening in New Orleans. There was some some damage 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:26.040 to people's rooms, there was some you know, fairly fairly 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:30.520 substantial damage to the structures. But what happened to the west, 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:37.360 in cities like Laplace, UM, which is about thirty miles 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:41.680 west of New Orleans, UM, that's where you started to 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:47.240 see like very severe flooding, very severe UM damage to structures, 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:53.120 places like Homer Lafitte, um Portchean, all these places that 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:55.360 are closer to the coast. That's where you saw the 0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:58.120 real heavy destruction. So a lot of people have been 0:15:58.160 --> 0:16:01.600 framing what's happened down the Bayou and in the river 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:05.640 parishes as we would say, um as like those places Katrina, 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:11.400 because it's the destruction was was so total in that way. UM, 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:15.200 So the way that you relate to UM, that type 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:18.720 of again quote unquote disaster is much is much different, 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:23.240 whereas what happened in New Orleans, UM is more of 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:26.640 a continuation of of what could be called like a 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:30.520 series of apocalypses that have been happening since colonization. UM. 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:35.000 I think that's that's an interesting point also that that 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:37.000 that I want to talk about a little bit about 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:40.960 US grain exports because I think that that's another part 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:46.360 of this whole food system question that is important on 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:49.160 a scale that I don't think people understand, like, you know, 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:52.600 it's just for furvent background for listeners. So when when 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:56.080 all of the sort of giant like free trade agreements 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:58.880 went into effect, um, you know, so so the free 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:00.640 trade comments are like, okay, you're you're not supposed to 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:04.320 be able to like have government subsidies of agricultural products. 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:07.040 And there's there's a couple of carve outs that were 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:10.200 put into this now almost all of them. There are exceptions, 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:12.720 for there's a couple of like weird manufacturing stuff in 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:14.919 like Italy and Germany that have carve outs. And the 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:17.919 other big one is that the the the U. S. 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:20.840 Government is allowed to just do enormous levels of agricultural 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:24.040 subsidies that no one else like really in the world 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:27.280 is allowed to like match or I mean do it. 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:28.960 Like you know, you know if if if you try 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:31.080 to have grand subsidies, right, it's like you know, the 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:32.960 I m F will come after you, like you know, 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:34.960 you're not allowed to do it. But then you know, 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:37.320 sometanious that you have the US producing all of this 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:40.879 like this. I mean it it's it's not it's not 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:44.000 really cheap, right, but it's it's you know, this enormously 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:47.800 subsidized grain that nobody can actually really compete with. And 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:51.840 I think that's that's like an interesting I was wondering what, 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:54.240 like how how how do you guys think about that 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:58.040 in terms of, you know, try trying to do decentralized 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:02.280 I guess o your culture into play. That's to a 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:06.080 large extent, this sort of like conduitive grain to the 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:07.720 rest of the world, but in a way that like 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:12.080 also inhibits those places from actually you know, having their 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:16.280 own kind of like essentialized agriculture. UM. I mean I 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:19.200 can speak a little bit about like what that kind 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:23.000 of does to our context of like making it, like 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:25.400 especially when I see people in the kind of organic 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:31.120 gardening farming world trying to go on this model of like, oh, 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:36.119 we're gonna make you know, regenerative agriculture profitable, and we're 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:43.119 gonna make it somehow compete with conventional agriculture. UM. And 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:46.080 I guess I just don't really think that that is 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:50.240 feasible in that in that terrain. Like you know, if 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:52.919 if we're trying to compete on that same terrain and 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:57.080 we're competing with these absurd subsidies, it definitely just the 0:18:57.119 --> 0:18:59.640 same problem that you see around the world where people 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:02.760 aren't able to afford to grow their own thing because 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:04.600 there's no way they can they can sell it as 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:08.120 cheaply as as us grain. UM. So I think it's 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:11.520 more important to sort of like look at like there's 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:13.680 there's a piece in the almanac actually that sort of 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:16.879 gets into this this issue of like, well, are we 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:21.439 really growing enough food in this regenerative way. Like you know, 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:24.480 we we don't even hardly grow that many grains or 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:26.520 that many high calorie things. A lot of things are 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:29.439 just focused on vegetables and things like that. And like, 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:32.080 I think that's a really important critique. And also I 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:35.040 think that the way out of it isn't just gonna 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:40.159 be us trying harder or something or um. Like the 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:43.960 future iron vision for us, like really changing the food 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:49.760 system kind of involves like really large scale expropriation of 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:52.480 that land where the grain is being produced and of 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:57.560 those huge machineries, those huge like satellite powered or satellite 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:01.800 directed you know, plows and tractors and whatnot that are 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:06.240 that are doing this stuff. Um. And so like when 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:08.480 I'm trying to think about like the impact that a 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:11.159 food project is having, or like a food justice project, 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:13.960 I don't try to think like we're trying to replace 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:18.280 uh aggro business on its own terms. I think like 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:23.679 we're trying to be an ally or an aid to 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:27.760 any kind of antagonistic sort of social movement that actually 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:29.800 is going to create the conditions where like we can 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:32.480 all get together and start to actually address these problems, 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:38.440 um without being hindered by you know, things like private property. 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:40.720 So I guess that that that that's a good point 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:44.000 to to jump into the Almanac from. I think, yeah, 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:46.040 do do you want to just introduce the project a 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:47.480 little bit and then we can talk about some of 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:50.280 the stuff in it that I thought was really interesting. Yeah. 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:53.080 So the Almanac kind of came out of like a 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:56.960 little bit of a like partially is like a joke. 0:20:57.119 --> 0:21:02.360 You know, we're like, everyone gets the Almanac and kind 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:05.960 of you know, it doesn't really relate too much to 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:10.000 um like most of us what we would be growing. Um, 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:13.720 So we had we had posited something like different, you know, 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:17.119 something that that does kind of grapple with some of 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:20.160 the questions of you know, growing food and kind of 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:22.359 the conditions we live in. Maybe you can speak kind 0:21:22.359 --> 0:21:24.680 of yeah, I can even just I'll actually just read 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:26.800 the back of it because I think it speaks to 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:29.439 it pretty well. This is a farmer's almanac for the 0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:31.960 end of the world. Growing food used to be a 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:34.639 lot more straightforward when you plant your okra at the 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:37.880 same time every year like your grandpa did. Now we've 0:21:37.920 --> 0:21:41.520 got to be ready for anything. Late spring freezes, freak 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:44.800 heat waves that bring plants out of dormancy to early 0:21:45.440 --> 0:21:49.719 fire season longer every year, the polar vortex. And if 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:52.080 that wasn't enough, we've also got to contend with the 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:56.000 fallout from breakages in the global supply chain. When millions 0:21:56.000 --> 0:21:58.560 of gallons of milk get poured down the drain and 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:02.040 mountains of potatoes are left to rock, it's a world 0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:05.760 that calls for a new kind of farmers almanac. Today's 0:22:05.800 --> 0:22:09.240 crisis has roots in the earliest moments of land theft 0:22:09.240 --> 0:22:13.480 against Native people's, a process that has continued alongside hundreds 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:17.440 of years of slavery and colonization. The way forward out 0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:19.879 of this mess will mean grappling with the crimes of 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:23.000 the past, as well as charting a new course guided 0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:27.560 by black and Indigenous knowledge, creative experimentation and food production, 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:32.520 and paying attention across generational and species devides. So I mean, 0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:35.359 what one like very concrete example of like how this 0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:37.400 farmer's on the neck is different than what you might 0:22:37.520 --> 0:22:41.520 see just from the standard almanac. Is um, you know, 0:22:41.560 --> 0:22:44.720 we we don't have like oh it's it's May, it's 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:47.520 time to plant corn or whatever, because I mean, first 0:22:47.560 --> 0:22:50.119 of all that that was never that useful as for 0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:53.600 a publication that's meant to be used across this vast continent. 0:22:53.720 --> 0:22:56.640 You know, it's going to be different everywhere, um, where 0:22:56.680 --> 0:23:00.439 you're going to plant things at which time, um. But 0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:04.080 also like those standard resources that we would go to 0:23:04.240 --> 0:23:07.280 like for here, for the Southeast for example, or wherever, Like, 0:23:07.560 --> 0:23:10.040 if you're looking at something that was made a few 0:23:10.040 --> 0:23:13.240 decades ago, it's not going to actually be accurate or 0:23:13.280 --> 0:23:16.800 it's going to give you undo certainty about where the 0:23:16.840 --> 0:23:19.159 seasons line up and things like that. So you know, 0:23:19.200 --> 0:23:21.440 instead of telling people exactly when to plant their seeds, 0:23:21.480 --> 0:23:24.640 we have a chart that has the actual German Nation 0:23:24.720 --> 0:23:28.840 temperatures of like all the major annual vegetables that people 0:23:28.840 --> 0:23:32.320 would want to grow, um. And then we also have 0:23:32.520 --> 0:23:37.680 like the monthly notes from this local farm in New Orleans, 0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:40.720 so you know, located in this area, you can you 0:23:40.760 --> 0:23:42.520 can also get a really precise view of like, oh, 0:23:42.560 --> 0:23:46.080 they were planning this, then they were harvesting this then. Yeah. 0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:49.600 I think that we hope to make something that was 0:23:49.680 --> 0:23:52.399 you know, our our original focus was something that was 0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:56.080 specific to New Orleans in the region, um, you know, 0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:59.480 in the Gulf South and the Southeast generally, because we 0:23:59.520 --> 0:24:03.600 are so or of the you know, the differences or 0:24:03.960 --> 0:24:07.280 what have you between growing through here and growing food 0:24:07.320 --> 0:24:09.920 in Ohio or something or whatever, and we all get 0:24:09.920 --> 0:24:12.760 these same seeds you know, out of Walmart or Lows 0:24:12.880 --> 0:24:15.280 or whatever and try and grow the exact same plants 0:24:15.320 --> 0:24:19.000 all over the place to trying to um hone in 0:24:19.040 --> 0:24:23.040 on some of that local perspective. UM with me really 0:24:23.080 --> 0:24:26.639 in terms of like getting some like folk tradition, getting 0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:32.440 some um, you know, anecdotal evidence about you know, things 0:24:32.480 --> 0:24:36.080 that worked with things that people are trying UM. And 0:24:37.080 --> 0:24:39.879 I think that that was that was fairly successful. UM. 0:24:41.200 --> 0:24:43.560 I think I think aside that we weren't really expecting 0:24:43.600 --> 0:24:46.800 as much was just the amount of national and even 0:24:46.880 --> 0:24:51.520 international UM kind of grasp that it had. UM. I 0:24:51.600 --> 0:24:55.480 think a lot of people like could could use something 0:24:55.560 --> 0:25:00.639 like this in their area. UM. And it fostered some 0:25:00.720 --> 0:25:04.840 really interesting connections for people that are experimenting in New York, 0:25:04.920 --> 0:25:07.440 for people that are are growing things or thinking about 0:25:07.560 --> 0:25:10.960 maybe UM food systems and how they relate to prisons 0:25:10.960 --> 0:25:15.560 in California or UM even you know as far away 0:25:15.600 --> 0:25:20.280 as Brazil. UM. It's kind of began to foster a 0:25:20.320 --> 0:25:25.400 connection between Lobelia commons and a group called thee Bovos, 0:25:25.440 --> 0:25:29.160 which translates roughly to like the Web of People's UM 0:25:29.240 --> 0:25:34.080 in Brazil, so called Brazil UM, where it's kind of 0:25:34.080 --> 0:25:39.840 like experimental agroecology project that's very specific UM specifically focused 0:25:39.920 --> 0:25:45.560 on UM, you know, sovereignty, land stewardship, kind of following 0:25:45.600 --> 0:25:49.080 a little bit in the tradition of the Landless Workers movement. 0:25:49.080 --> 0:25:52.119 If anyone's familiar with mst UM, it's kind of following 0:25:52.119 --> 0:25:56.000 in that tradition a bit UM, but is heavily stewarded 0:25:56.080 --> 0:26:01.199 by black and Indigenous knowledges. Yeah, I was something I 0:26:01.240 --> 0:26:03.320 think of a like a kind of pleasant surprise out 0:26:03.359 --> 0:26:06.320 of it. Yeah, I thought that was that was really 0:26:07.560 --> 0:26:10.440 interesting way of looking at it, because I feel like 0:26:10.560 --> 0:26:15.640 there's this tendency in the US too, you know when 0:26:15.640 --> 0:26:17.720 when when when we talk about sort of a relationship 0:26:17.760 --> 0:26:19.359 to the land, which which something that comes up a 0:26:19.400 --> 0:26:22.120 lot in in the sort of essays that are are 0:26:22.160 --> 0:26:24.800 in the All Neck is about you know, like the 0:26:24.920 --> 0:26:26.600 there there there's a piece that I related to a lot, 0:26:26.640 --> 0:26:29.600 which is about someone from Guam trying to sort of 0:26:30.680 --> 0:26:34.040 deal with like I mean, particularly like legacies is or 0:26:34.119 --> 0:26:36.560 Japanese imperialism and being driven from their home. And I 0:26:36.640 --> 0:26:39.359 was like, oh, hey, look like this is yeah, you know, 0:26:39.440 --> 0:26:42.080 is this this is someone who experienced which when Japan 0:26:42.119 --> 0:26:43.919 went west. I was like, oh yeah, my family had 0:26:43.920 --> 0:26:46.840 this basically very similar thing when they went east. And 0:26:47.119 --> 0:26:49.960 you know, but but there's there's I think, yeah, and 0:26:50.200 --> 0:26:53.879 I think it's very smartly you get you get to 0:26:53.920 --> 0:26:58.080 a point very quickly where you're trying to grapple with 0:26:58.760 --> 0:27:01.679 you know, how do how do you build connections to land? 0:27:01.720 --> 0:27:04.280 But then also how how does that work in a 0:27:04.359 --> 0:27:07.840 context in you know, in a context that's basically defined 0:27:07.840 --> 0:27:11.000 by southern colonialism and defined by by this by this occupation. 0:27:11.160 --> 0:27:13.879 And I think looking at the MSc, looking at a 0:27:13.880 --> 0:27:15.800 lot of stuff happened Latin America, I mean there there's 0:27:16.040 --> 0:27:21.119 very similar to what you guys were talking about. In Brazil. 0:27:21.160 --> 0:27:24.040 There there was a huge movement like this that was 0:27:24.119 --> 0:27:27.959 indigenous land recormation, sort of agrocology in in Columbia for 0:27:27.960 --> 0:27:31.120 example too in the nineties, and they they run into 0:27:31.119 --> 0:27:34.239 this problem of you know, there's there's a civil war 0:27:34.280 --> 0:27:35.600 growing on in Columbia and they a lot of them 0:27:35.600 --> 0:27:38.720 getting murdered by sort of state paramilitary is in the army. 0:27:38.880 --> 0:27:41.920 But I think it's it's a it's a really interesting 0:27:41.960 --> 0:27:46.159 way of of looking at what what does what does 0:27:46.240 --> 0:27:47.880 lampak actually look like? And how how do you deal 0:27:47.880 --> 0:27:50.440 with interacting with land? And also yeah, the lance workers 0:27:50.480 --> 0:27:52.879 in particular, they use a lot of methods, but you 0:27:52.880 --> 0:27:55.600 know they actually do just take a like an enormous 0:27:55.600 --> 0:27:58.680 amount of land like back from this state and sort 0:27:58.680 --> 0:28:02.480 of back from corporate things. So I'm interested in how 0:28:02.560 --> 0:28:05.359 we all started talking to a lot of these a 0:28:05.400 --> 0:28:07.080 lot of the Brazilian groups and how that sort of 0:28:07.720 --> 0:28:10.760 like that that perspective is shaped way that like this, 0:28:10.760 --> 0:28:13.440 this this whole sort of project turned out. Um. So 0:28:14.040 --> 0:28:20.320 we were specifically to their dispos um some previous connections 0:28:20.359 --> 0:28:25.160 that some of us had UM in Brazil had when 0:28:25.240 --> 0:28:27.520 talking about what we were doing and just kind of 0:28:27.640 --> 0:28:31.800 keeping up in exchange of um you know, just like 0:28:31.880 --> 0:28:34.160 kind of updates from from the Gulf when they would 0:28:34.640 --> 0:28:39.320 send updates from things going on down there. They kind 0:28:39.320 --> 0:28:43.880 of drew the connection for us and put us towards them. 0:28:44.040 --> 0:28:48.520 And I reached out to day Dispobos and was like, hey, 0:28:48.600 --> 0:28:51.880 we're you know, we're doing this thing, and I you know, 0:28:53.040 --> 0:28:57.160 and inspired by what you're doing personally and UM, you know, 0:28:57.200 --> 0:29:01.760 I I'd be curious to see what what what kind 0:29:01.800 --> 0:29:08.040 of relationship whatever we can foster, and they took it. UM. 0:29:08.040 --> 0:29:11.560 You know, also with with some inspirations, seeing that this 0:29:11.680 --> 0:29:17.040 very clear connection in terms of relationship with land historically, 0:29:17.600 --> 0:29:24.200 M this possession historically between the two continents across the Caribbean. UM. 0:29:24.320 --> 0:29:31.560 The implementation on a wide scale of plantation, monoculture UM. 0:29:31.640 --> 0:29:36.400 It that was fueled entirely by slavery and genocide. UM. 0:29:37.520 --> 0:29:41.239 And And I think that having that kind of like 0:29:41.760 --> 0:29:45.400 shared common history, I think gives us a good bedrock to, 0:29:45.520 --> 0:29:49.560 like UM exchange notes about where we are now kind 0:29:49.600 --> 0:29:55.120 of multiplied by the fact that the way that UM, yeah, 0:29:55.240 --> 0:30:00.000 so called emancipation happened here versus in Brazil radically different. 0:30:00.040 --> 0:30:06.120 And UM the UM like the for instance, the existence 0:30:06.160 --> 0:30:09.400 of PET or the Workers Party in Brazil being such 0:30:09.400 --> 0:30:12.880 a force after the dictatorship and having that like strong 0:30:13.120 --> 0:30:17.320 populist movement UM that was you know, rooted a very 0:30:17.360 --> 0:30:22.400 traditional left UM that that fueled MST. Well, you don't 0:30:22.400 --> 0:30:25.200 have anything like that here. You know that that happens 0:30:25.240 --> 0:30:28.960 at the same time that here, actually the workers movement 0:30:29.080 --> 0:30:31.200 in the US was was kind of getting defeated, I 0:30:31.200 --> 0:30:36.000 mean the up in the seventies. So with respect to 0:30:36.040 --> 0:30:41.200 like um land back specifically, UM, you know, I don't 0:30:41.240 --> 0:30:42.760 know if you I don't know if you will see 0:30:42.760 --> 0:30:46.960 it in the same forms. I doubt at least obviously 0:30:47.280 --> 0:30:51.040 would totally be there cheering it on. And I'm happy 0:30:51.080 --> 0:30:53.000 to see it. Um. But I think it looks a 0:30:53.080 --> 0:30:55.480 lot more like during the uprising last year. You saw 0:30:55.560 --> 0:31:00.640 in Chicago, for instance, UM, the when when the trains 0:31:00.720 --> 0:31:04.960 were being expropriated as they were moving, taking goods out 0:31:05.000 --> 0:31:08.440 of these box cars, um, and just expropriate in tons 0:31:08.440 --> 0:31:11.240 of goods, taking you know, taking goods that would normally 0:31:11.240 --> 0:31:14.600 be going you know, just commodities normally going to court, 0:31:14.920 --> 0:31:18.200 just cut off in the middle of line or you know, UM, 0:31:18.240 --> 0:31:24.240 these these these these kind of like more um ah, 0:31:24.600 --> 0:31:28.719 I don't want to say small scale, but UM focus 0:31:28.800 --> 0:31:32.920 more on like infrastructural choke points rather than necessarily um 0:31:34.000 --> 0:31:38.320 like having thousands of people swarming uh, you know, a 0:31:38.360 --> 0:31:43.760 massive industrial agriculture UM set up in Kansas or something. 0:31:43.800 --> 0:31:46.520 You know. Yeah, yeah, I think it's great to imagine that. 0:31:46.560 --> 0:31:50.640 I think I really love sharing the history of mst 0:31:51.080 --> 0:31:53.160 with people in America who have never heard it before, 0:31:53.160 --> 0:31:55.000 because I think it's a great way to kind of 0:31:55.360 --> 0:31:59.720 expand the imaginary of like what is possible, like what 0:32:00.040 --> 0:32:03.240 kind of actions are actually at our disposal like it 0:32:03.320 --> 0:32:05.680 and it truly is not you to look exactly like that. 0:32:05.800 --> 0:32:08.480 And I think it's also really important for us to 0:32:08.600 --> 0:32:13.640 like not forget a lot of the similar histories here, 0:32:13.680 --> 0:32:18.200 like UM. Part of the inspiration for the Almanac or 0:32:18.240 --> 0:32:20.440 what kind of drove us to to make it was 0:32:20.680 --> 0:32:22.640 some of us were doing a reading group of this 0:32:22.680 --> 0:32:28.000 book called Freedom Farmers that's about kind of like various 0:32:28.120 --> 0:32:33.480 uh um black projects in the South for food autonomy 0:32:33.760 --> 0:32:36.640 after slavery, and a lot of it is about Fannie 0:32:36.680 --> 0:32:40.760 Lew Hammer and UM freedom Farms. And you know, we 0:32:41.120 --> 0:32:44.720 were definitely inspired for some of the litbilia things by 0:32:44.920 --> 0:32:47.960 um Fannie Lee Hammer's pig Bank, which was a really 0:32:47.960 --> 0:32:50.600 cool thing where they just like started with a bunch 0:32:50.640 --> 0:32:53.120 of pigs and if you were in the community, like 0:32:53.400 --> 0:32:55.960 you get you get your pigs from you get a 0:32:55.960 --> 0:32:58.520 couple of piglets from the pig bank, and then the 0:32:58.760 --> 0:33:01.280 interest on that is a couple of years later you 0:33:01.360 --> 0:33:03.120 got to give them a couple of pigs because you're 0:33:03.120 --> 0:33:05.240 producing your own pigs, and so the pig bank is 0:33:05.280 --> 0:33:08.520 like self sustaining. UM. And another thing from that book 0:33:08.520 --> 0:33:13.520 that was inspiring to us was um reading about George 0:33:13.560 --> 0:33:22.400 Washington Carver's public education projects out of Tuskegee University that were, um, 0:33:22.440 --> 0:33:25.040 just really inspiring in terms of like he was doing 0:33:25.080 --> 0:33:28.800 all of his own kind of independent research about soils 0:33:28.800 --> 0:33:31.160 and pests and all these different crops and everything, and 0:33:31.480 --> 0:33:36.960 creating these farm bulletins that were then being distributed to 0:33:37.160 --> 0:33:40.520 black farmers throughout the region to kind of, you know, 0:33:40.680 --> 0:33:43.520 share better practices, and a lot of the stuff was 0:33:43.600 --> 0:33:47.040 like agro ecology before people had that word. Like he 0:33:47.120 --> 0:33:48.840 was very far out of his time in terms of 0:33:48.920 --> 0:33:53.959 understanding soil dynamics and and passing things like that. UM. 0:33:54.000 --> 0:33:56.840 So yeah, we we definitely try to try to lift 0:33:56.920 --> 0:33:59.720 up all that history as much as possible. Yeah, I 0:33:59.720 --> 0:34:03.280 guess whenever. The ether thing I thought was very interesting 0:34:03.440 --> 0:34:08.200 that you alluded to you briefly in this was Yeah, 0:34:08.200 --> 0:34:10.160 because there's there's a session of this is talking about 0:34:10.520 --> 0:34:13.480 food in prisons, and I wonder if you could talk 0:34:13.520 --> 0:34:15.120 about that part a little bit more because that's a 0:34:15.160 --> 0:34:18.200 connection that I that I really don't think it's drawn 0:34:18.760 --> 0:34:21.359 very often here on me flipped to the piece, right, 0:34:21.800 --> 0:34:23.200 I mean one of the things that it's kind of 0:34:23.239 --> 0:34:26.200 hard to describe. I do love the visual that that 0:34:26.239 --> 0:34:29.160 we have for this piece, but yeah, I mean it's 0:34:29.200 --> 0:34:31.759 just like the it's a striking image, you know, it's 0:34:31.800 --> 0:34:35.080 got like, um in the center, there's a picture of 0:34:35.400 --> 0:34:38.920 a really high density chicken operation and there's somebody wearing 0:34:38.960 --> 0:34:41.480 sort of like a full tibex suit suit and just 0:34:41.800 --> 0:34:44.879 walking through this like massive herd of chickens. And then 0:34:44.920 --> 0:34:49.200 that's superimposed over this just like really nasty looking close 0:34:49.280 --> 0:34:52.359 up photo of a prison food tray and just like 0:34:52.440 --> 0:34:56.480 the canned veggies and the everything, And like, I mean, 0:34:56.520 --> 0:34:59.400 I don't I've been to jail a number of times, 0:34:59.480 --> 0:35:02.200 and the food is always terrible. It's always one of 0:35:02.200 --> 0:35:04.280 the things that you talk about or you can bond 0:35:04.320 --> 0:35:06.239 over or whatever. It's just how bad the food is. 0:35:06.280 --> 0:35:10.440 But I think people who haven't experienced that don't really 0:35:10.719 --> 0:35:16.000 think about just how much systematic like starvation is going 0:35:16.000 --> 0:35:18.040 on and the nutrition is going on, where it's like 0:35:18.239 --> 0:35:20.560 the only way you can possibly survive in these places 0:35:20.840 --> 0:35:23.799 is spending a bunch of extra money on commissary to 0:35:23.840 --> 0:35:26.200 get stuff that also isn't healthy, but at least you 0:35:26.200 --> 0:35:29.200 can get more calories and stuff. Um. And like I 0:35:29.239 --> 0:35:34.240 think that that there's like a lot of parallels between 0:35:34.320 --> 0:35:37.120 kind of the structure of prisons and the structure of 0:35:37.160 --> 0:35:41.680 our of our food system. UM. I mean one example 0:35:41.719 --> 0:35:43.680 that I used to talk about this is like the 0:35:43.680 --> 0:35:48.840 banana plantation um where like the you know, we have 0:35:48.920 --> 0:35:52.960 an entire variety of banana that's like basically stanct or 0:35:53.000 --> 0:35:57.640 it's it can't be grown commercially anymore because the banana industry, 0:35:58.080 --> 0:36:03.240 you know, functions by putting like warehousing these banas together 0:36:03.320 --> 0:36:07.040 and these like super tight plantation formations, you know, which 0:36:07.080 --> 0:36:10.239 really only makes sense if you're just trying to maximize 0:36:10.239 --> 0:36:12.200 your profits and get as much out of a a 0:36:12.280 --> 0:36:15.080 small space as possible. But what it does is is 0:36:15.120 --> 0:36:18.320 the exact same thing that happens in prisons during COVID 0:36:18.440 --> 0:36:22.160 or with any kind of uh, you know, pathogen like 0:36:22.200 --> 0:36:26.600 tuberculosis or whatever. Um. You know, It's it's like the 0:36:27.040 --> 0:36:30.840 trees are so close together that the fungus spread so rapidly, 0:36:30.920 --> 0:36:33.719 and then they're also like pumping all these things into 0:36:34.080 --> 0:36:37.359 to fight that, and they're actually breeding super funguses all 0:36:37.400 --> 0:36:40.040 the time, and at some point the banana that we 0:36:40.080 --> 0:36:42.960 eat now is going to also stop existing because of this. 0:36:43.840 --> 0:36:46.839 UM And I guess I don't know if I can 0:36:46.960 --> 0:36:50.200 draw anything deeper out of those similarities than the fact 0:36:50.200 --> 0:36:53.920 that there's this like overriding logic of capitalism that is 0:36:54.000 --> 0:36:58.720 just like has no respect for these beings, like whether 0:36:58.800 --> 0:37:02.879 it is a per person or a minatory, like it's 0:37:02.880 --> 0:37:10.600 all just commodities and things to be warehouse. UM. Yeah, 0:37:09.440 --> 0:37:12.960 I think UM to add on that, I mean this, 0:37:13.160 --> 0:37:15.440 this is the piece in there which is called the 0:37:15.480 --> 0:37:18.320 Struggle for good Food across Walls. UM. I think it 0:37:18.400 --> 0:37:22.440 does a nice job of talking about how like, um, 0:37:22.440 --> 0:37:24.560 you know, if we're talking about quote unquote food, food 0:37:24.600 --> 0:37:29.560 justice or what have you like, UM Like, how can 0:37:29.600 --> 0:37:31.880 we talk about that on the outside of all forgetting 0:37:31.880 --> 0:37:37.799 about just the most deplorable um food conditions on the 0:37:37.960 --> 0:37:43.040 entire continent. UM. And I think that that it's it's 0:37:43.080 --> 0:37:45.359 really good at that. I think I would really like 0:37:45.400 --> 0:37:50.120 to see in the next year all the ways that um, 0:37:50.160 --> 0:37:55.080 the imaginaries of of inmates kind of go in like 0:37:55.160 --> 0:38:00.000 attack that UM. The like the logic of of prison 0:38:00.000 --> 0:38:02.880 and food being completely deplorable. Like you know, you have 0:38:03.000 --> 0:38:06.759 all these forms of creativity of like making tortillas and 0:38:06.800 --> 0:38:11.160 stuff and like doing wild things with like stuff that's 0:38:11.200 --> 0:38:16.320 in the commissary, you know, contraband kind of ways of 0:38:16.320 --> 0:38:18.840 of making kind of life a little bit more livable 0:38:18.880 --> 0:38:22.040 in there. And and if anyone has UM spent time 0:38:22.560 --> 0:38:26.320 in jail or prison, or or kept up a relationship 0:38:26.360 --> 0:38:29.360 with someone on the inside or what have you, UM, 0:38:29.400 --> 0:38:33.680 everyone has a story about a way of UM making 0:38:33.840 --> 0:38:37.800 making food more um interesting and joyful and and like 0:38:37.880 --> 0:38:41.160 there becomes whole cultures around them. One of the things 0:38:41.200 --> 0:38:46.839 that we're starting to do in one of the farm 0:38:46.880 --> 0:38:49.400 spaces we work with outside of the city is is 0:38:50.120 --> 0:38:56.160 um through pre existing relationships with inmates in Angola State 0:38:56.160 --> 0:39:00.440 Penitentiary in Louisiana, which, for those that don't know, UM 0:39:00.719 --> 0:39:04.239 was a plantation civil war happens two years after the 0:39:04.280 --> 0:39:07.960 civil War, it becomes a Louisiana scate p potentiary. It's 0:39:07.960 --> 0:39:12.760 still a plantation. It's you know, uh this many times 0:39:12.840 --> 0:39:16.200 descendants of the same enslaved folks who were on that 0:39:16.239 --> 0:39:19.920 plantation prior UM and you know, it's a it's a 0:39:19.920 --> 0:39:23.040 guard on a horseback riding around while those UM folks 0:39:23.040 --> 0:39:27.399 pulling cotton um. And so so, through some of these 0:39:27.440 --> 0:39:31.000 relationships with some of these inmates who are UM like 0:39:31.160 --> 0:39:38.440 kind of uh clandestine organizers, UM, we're starting to come 0:39:38.520 --> 0:39:42.000 up with ways to like grow food collaboratively with folks 0:39:42.040 --> 0:39:44.560 that are behind walls and and find ways to get 0:39:44.600 --> 0:39:48.080 food to either their family or maybe sell and get 0:39:48.080 --> 0:39:50.560 that into their commissary. Kind of just like trying to 0:39:51.040 --> 0:39:57.800 um spitball ideas about like different ways of producing food 0:39:58.480 --> 0:40:03.360 despite people's um incarceration. Yeah, that that seems that seems 0:40:03.360 --> 0:40:05.680 like a really I guess we're you can really say 0:40:05.680 --> 0:40:07.920 it is a a necessary way for for this sort of 0:40:07.920 --> 0:40:10.720 food politics to go, if it's going to actually deal 0:40:10.840 --> 0:40:13.880 with sort of both the land conditions and the conditions 0:40:13.880 --> 0:40:16.120 of just you know, the fact that we haven't in 0:40:16.160 --> 0:40:18.480 know that there's still just an enormous slafe population the US. 0:40:19.200 --> 0:40:21.880 And I think that kind of resistance in creativity, I 0:40:21.880 --> 0:40:25.200 think is how Yeah, y'all, are y'all are on the 0:40:25.280 --> 0:40:28.680 right track with with pushing it that way? Yeah, that 0:40:28.800 --> 0:40:30.799 this is this is sort of a bleak note to 0:40:30.920 --> 0:40:33.120 end on, I think, but I don't know. I think 0:40:33.160 --> 0:40:35.520 it's yeah, it's a it's a it's a hopeful one too, 0:40:35.960 --> 0:40:40.319 and where can people find but basically all of Youll's work. 0:40:40.400 --> 0:40:42.919 And then also you talked a little bit about trying 0:40:42.920 --> 0:40:45.000 to get submissions for and everything, So can you talk 0:40:45.040 --> 0:40:49.680 a little bit about how that how that's gonna work. Yeah, Um, 0:40:49.760 --> 0:40:53.279 so we're we're it's it's kind of been on hold 0:40:53.320 --> 0:40:58.080 a little bit because we've been like very active after IDA. Yeah, 0:40:58.960 --> 0:41:02.399 and you know, trying to make sure our people are 0:41:02.520 --> 0:41:08.799 all good and supporting UM in various places, UM kind 0:41:08.840 --> 0:41:11.520 of doing like different workshops and stuff. And and because 0:41:11.600 --> 0:41:14.239 that our focus isn't just on food production, it's also 0:41:14.320 --> 0:41:18.320 like neighborhood survival or whatever. So we've been um working 0:41:18.360 --> 0:41:22.280 with an old UM neighbor of one of ours, who 0:41:22.400 --> 0:41:25.520 um you know, she's already been kind of doing this 0:41:25.920 --> 0:41:29.560 mutual aid stuff you know by any other name for decades, 0:41:29.800 --> 0:41:33.840 you know, letting people stay in their house, UM, feeding people. UM. 0:41:34.000 --> 0:41:35.879 She's like kind of like a block MoMA and she's 0:41:35.880 --> 0:41:40.480 really one of the last UM black homeowners in her neighborhood. 0:41:40.520 --> 0:41:43.880 So we're really trying to like help her achieve some 0:41:43.920 --> 0:41:46.760 autonomy one way that we've been putting it is UM 0:41:46.800 --> 0:41:49.600 when all the airbnbs like lose their power because they're 0:41:49.600 --> 0:41:53.440 still reliant on the colonial world, well, miss Elfie I 0:41:53.440 --> 0:41:55.239 could still have her lights on because she's going to 0:41:55.320 --> 0:41:59.319 be totally autonomous from the system. So UM, I think 0:41:59.360 --> 0:42:02.520 that that is on our Instagram page if you click 0:42:02.560 --> 0:42:05.560 on the like UM the link or whatever, there's a 0:42:05.640 --> 0:42:09.279 go fund me that UM is UH where we've been 0:42:09.320 --> 0:42:11.239 putting a lot of our effort and really working with 0:42:11.280 --> 0:42:14.120 her on UM and then also like growing growing a 0:42:14.160 --> 0:42:17.440 garden like adjacent to her so that their people in 0:42:17.480 --> 0:42:20.640 that community are are food as as food autonomous as 0:42:21.080 --> 0:42:23.440 UM as we can get we can we can put 0:42:23.440 --> 0:42:27.240 it in the show notes. Yeah, and the the handle 0:42:27.480 --> 0:42:34.640 for both Twitter and Instagram is at Lobilia Commons and 0:42:34.880 --> 0:42:38.680 the Almanac. You can find links to the Almanac pdf 0:42:38.760 --> 0:42:41.400 on through either of those UM if you want to 0:42:41.400 --> 0:42:44.080 just read it for free. And then UM there's also 0:42:44.239 --> 0:42:48.759 copies for sale on emergent Goods dot com. And for 0:42:49.120 --> 0:42:52.399 UM submissions. I mean, yeah, like I said, we've been 0:42:52.440 --> 0:42:54.800 really behind on this just because of all this stuff, 0:42:54.840 --> 0:42:59.040 But for submissions, we're really UM looking for folks. UM 0:42:59.120 --> 0:43:02.440 to contribute, throw us a pitch. UM. I think if 0:43:02.440 --> 0:43:04.400 you've seen the first one or I've listened to this, 0:43:04.440 --> 0:43:07.319 you probably get something of an idea of what we're 0:43:07.320 --> 0:43:10.960 looking for UM. And we're happy to like talk to 0:43:11.040 --> 0:43:15.120 people about, like, you know, different ideas and bear with 0:43:15.200 --> 0:43:17.359 us if we're a little slower to respawn because we're 0:43:17.480 --> 0:43:20.440 you know, kind of still weigst deep right now. But 0:43:20.560 --> 0:43:24.840 the submission for deadlines is the end of October UM, 0:43:24.920 --> 0:43:28.440 and you can email ideas or pitches or whatever to 0:43:28.719 --> 0:43:33.400 Lobelia Commons at proton mail dot com. And lastly, the 0:43:33.440 --> 0:43:37.120 project that I'm most focused on is the front Yard 0:43:37.280 --> 0:43:42.960 Orchard Initiative, where basically we just propagate as many fruit 0:43:43.000 --> 0:43:46.760 trees as cheaply as possible, things that are really easy 0:43:46.920 --> 0:43:51.520 for us to grow from cuttings like figs, s, mulberries, 0:43:51.600 --> 0:43:55.920 things they're easy to grow from seed, like papaya, maringa, 0:43:56.320 --> 0:44:01.040 pecan um. And we basically just have some nice flyers 0:44:01.080 --> 0:44:03.239 that we put up and we advertise a bit on 0:44:03.280 --> 0:44:05.920 social media and also just kind of go door to 0:44:06.000 --> 0:44:09.600 door in neighborhoods where we already have gardens or connections 0:44:10.200 --> 0:44:13.040 and offer to give free fruit trees out to people, 0:44:13.560 --> 0:44:15.880 and we're also happy to plant them for people and 0:44:15.880 --> 0:44:18.560 then kind of offer a consultation on how to take 0:44:18.560 --> 0:44:21.359 care of it or whatever. And also, if folks want 0:44:21.360 --> 0:44:25.560 to hear some of the pieces from the Earthbound Farmers 0:44:25.560 --> 0:44:28.600 Almanac read by some of the authors and then some 0:44:28.680 --> 0:44:32.279 interviews with those authors, you can check out this podcast 0:44:32.400 --> 0:44:36.359 called Partisan Gardens that did a really good episode that's 0:44:36.400 --> 0:44:40.640 kind of like an audio exploration of the Almanac. Cool. Yeah, people, 0:44:40.680 --> 0:44:44.279 people definitely definitely go read the Almanac. Is it's it's 0:44:44.280 --> 0:44:45.759 it's a it's a really good it's a really good 0:44:45.760 --> 0:44:49.279 piece of work. Um yeah, thank thank you too so 0:44:49.360 --> 0:44:58.920 much for joining us. Thank you for I'm Colleen what 0:44:59.400 --> 0:45:02.399 join me a host of Eating Wall Broke podcast While 0:45:02.440 --> 0:45:06.200 I eat a meal created by self made entrepreneurs, influencers 0:45:06.280 --> 0:45:08.640 and celebrities over a meal they once eight when they 0:45:08.640 --> 0:45:11.440 were broke. Today I have the lovely aj Crimson, the 0:45:11.520 --> 0:45:16.200 official Princess of comfin Asia Kid and Assia. This is 0:45:16.200 --> 0:45:18.960 the professor. We're here on Eating Wall Broke and today 0:45:18.960 --> 0:45:21.680 I'm gonna break down my meal that got me through 0:45:21.840 --> 0:45:24.319 the time when I was broken. Listen to Eating wall 0:45:24.360 --> 0:45:27.360 Broke on the I Heart radio app, on Apple podcast 0:45:27.480 --> 0:45:31.840 or wherever you get your podcasts. I call the Union 0:45:31.880 --> 0:45:34.839 Hall as this matter of life and death. I think 0:45:34.880 --> 0:45:38.319 these peeples of planning to kill Dr King. On April four, 0:45:39.840 --> 0:45:42.320 Dr Martin Luther King was shot and killed in Memphis. 0:45:42.600 --> 0:45:45.920 A petty criminal named James Earl Ray was arrested. He 0:45:46.000 --> 0:45:48.239 pled guilty to the crime and spent the rest of 0:45:48.239 --> 0:45:53.480 his life in prison. Case closed right, James Hill Ray 0:45:53.760 --> 0:45:58.480 was upon for the official story. The authorities would parade 0:45:58.560 --> 0:46:01.479 all we found a gone the James Old Ray bald 0:46:01.520 --> 0:46:05.520 in Birmingham that killed Dr King, Except it wasn't the 0:46:05.520 --> 0:46:08.560 gun that killed Dr King. One of the problems that 0:46:08.760 --> 0:46:12.160 came out when I got the Ray case was that 0:46:12.440 --> 0:46:15.560 some of the evidence, as far as I was concerned, 0:46:15.600 --> 0:46:19.720 did not match the circumstances. This is the MLK tapes. 0:46:20.080 --> 0:46:23.040 The first episodes are available now. Listen on the I 0:46:23.160 --> 0:46:27.080 Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 0:46:29.760 --> 0:46:32.520 After thirty years, it's time to return to the halls 0:46:32.560 --> 0:46:34.920 of West Beverly High and hang out at the peach pit. 0:46:35.200 --> 0:46:38.360 On the podcast nine O two one, OMG joined Jenny 0:46:38.400 --> 0:46:40.920 Garth and Tory Spelling for a rewatch of the hit 0:46:41.000 --> 0:46:43.480 series Beverly Hills nine O two one oh. From the 0:46:43.560 --> 0:46:46.960 very beginning, we get to tell the fans all of 0:46:47.040 --> 0:46:49.960 the behind the scenes stories to actually happen, so they 0:46:50.040 --> 0:46:52.560 know what happened on camera, obviously, but we can tell 0:46:52.640 --> 0:46:55.040 them all the good stuff that happened off camera. Get 0:46:55.040 --> 0:46:57.799 all the juicy details of every episode that you've been 0:46:57.800 --> 0:47:00.399 wondering about for decades. As nine O two one oh, 0:47:00.440 --> 0:47:03.680 super fan and radio host Sissany sits in with Jenny 0:47:03.760 --> 0:47:07.239 and Tory too reminisce, reflect and relive each moment, from 0:47:07.280 --> 0:47:11.040 Brandon and Kelly's first kiss to shouting Donna Martin graduates, 0:47:11.320 --> 0:47:15.200 you have an amazing memory. You remember everything about the 0:47:15.360 --> 0:47:18.000 entire ten years that we filmed that show, and you 0:47:18.160 --> 0:47:21.640 remember absolutely nothing of the ten years that we film 0:47:21.680 --> 0:47:24.840 that show. Listen to nine O two one OMG on 0:47:24.880 --> 0:47:27.560 the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 0:47:27.600 --> 0:47:35.120 get your podcasts. You suddenly wake up to the loud 0:47:35.200 --> 0:47:38.759 growling of a tactical vehicle. Must have left your window open. 0:47:39.120 --> 0:47:41.439 A few streets away. You can hear the troopers doing 0:47:41.480 --> 0:47:45.080 their morning patrols. This is closing in on week four 0:47:45.200 --> 0:47:48.640 of the all day curfew cops and state troopers have 0:47:48.719 --> 0:47:51.960 put checkpoints at every bridge and on all major streets 0:47:51.960 --> 0:47:55.920 for about every ten blocks. Your friends and the city's 0:47:56.000 --> 0:47:59.239 local liberal majority are now calling this what it is. 0:47:59.760 --> 0:48:02.960 You're a city is functioning as a full on police state. 0:48:03.880 --> 0:48:07.919 National establishment media has been more hesitants to use that term, 0:48:08.520 --> 0:48:11.640 but your Fox watching conservative family from out of state 0:48:11.880 --> 0:48:14.120 has been texting you about how good it is that 0:48:14.239 --> 0:48:17.359 someone is finally establishing law and order and taking back 0:48:17.360 --> 0:48:21.240 the town. After months of senseless looting and destructive riots, 0:48:22.800 --> 0:48:25.920 You've been mostly stuck in your downtown apartment. You quit 0:48:25.960 --> 0:48:28.480 your job when the recent amount of protests started up, 0:48:28.920 --> 0:48:31.800 which now means you don't qualify for the working hours 0:48:31.840 --> 0:48:35.319 exemption of the curfew. You've got enough money saved up 0:48:35.320 --> 0:48:38.080 for another month, but you're looking to get a grocery 0:48:38.120 --> 0:48:40.720 delivery job, which would have the added benefit of allowing 0:48:40.719 --> 0:48:44.279 you to go outside during the day. Luckily, you've been 0:48:44.280 --> 0:48:47.000 able to sneak out at night to do rooftopping and 0:48:47.080 --> 0:48:51.279 surveil the police's checkpoints and patrol routes in your neighborhood. 0:48:51.960 --> 0:48:55.759 You've noticed that the cops rarely look up. You've been 0:48:55.800 --> 0:48:58.520 feeding your intel into a surveillance database shared on a 0:48:58.560 --> 0:49:03.400 telegram channel ran by some various activists. After lying in 0:49:03.440 --> 0:49:06.320 bed gathering your thoughts for a few minutes, you finally 0:49:06.440 --> 0:49:09.880 roll out and pick out your clothes. Dark loose pants, 0:49:10.080 --> 0:49:15.080 a plane shirt, beanie, and a high his jacket. Ordinarily, 0:49:15.200 --> 0:49:18.000 you'd break into your red bull stache for morning caffeine, 0:49:18.440 --> 0:49:21.719 but you've already got plenty of energy. Today it's your 0:49:21.760 --> 0:49:24.800 boyfriend's birthday, and for the past week you've been planning 0:49:24.840 --> 0:49:28.520 to surprise him. You think there's finally enough information in 0:49:28.600 --> 0:49:31.600 the surveillance database to plan a trip across town with 0:49:31.680 --> 0:49:35.640 little to no law enforcement interaction. Between the in person 0:49:35.680 --> 0:49:39.120 reconnaissance and hacking into the city's traffic cams, which was 0:49:39.320 --> 0:49:42.400 surprisingly easy, you've been able to figure out a route 0:49:42.560 --> 0:49:45.359 using city buses and on foot that should be able 0:49:45.360 --> 0:49:49.400 to avoid checkpoints and the regular patrol routes from what 0:49:49.440 --> 0:49:52.000 you've seen online. Bus drivers won't ask for your work 0:49:52.040 --> 0:49:55.120 authorization card, and you're hoping the highvis jacket will make 0:49:55.160 --> 0:49:58.080 it look like you belong. Lastly, before you leave, you 0:49:58.080 --> 0:50:00.520 grab your small yellow messenger bag and jam in a 0:50:00.560 --> 0:50:03.680 water bottle plus a ten of a half a dozen cupcakes. 0:50:04.440 --> 0:50:09.600 Deep breaths, slowly twist the handle of your door and 0:50:09.680 --> 0:50:12.840 stare down in your apartment hallway. You're on your way, 0:50:13.840 --> 0:50:17.600 you keep telling yourself, just act like you belong. After 0:50:17.640 --> 0:50:19.960 taking the stairs down to ground level, you make your 0:50:19.960 --> 0:50:24.320 way street side. This part you feel more confident about. 0:50:24.640 --> 0:50:26.799 You've been able to study the patrol patterns around your 0:50:26.840 --> 0:50:30.000 media area more carefully. The bus stop you're going to 0:50:30.200 --> 0:50:32.680 is just four blocks away. You can zig zig through 0:50:32.719 --> 0:50:35.880 two streets and to avoid the main drags. As you 0:50:35.920 --> 0:50:38.200 walk through the sidewalks, you keep your head down, but 0:50:38.360 --> 0:50:40.440 your eyes are darting side to side to get a 0:50:40.520 --> 0:50:44.000 lay of the land. Don't walk too fast or too slow. 0:50:44.360 --> 0:50:47.920 Match the people around you. Obviously, not many people are 0:50:47.920 --> 0:50:50.560 out right now, but there are enough to mirror their 0:50:50.640 --> 0:50:54.120 movement and pace. It feels like it took forever, but 0:50:54.239 --> 0:50:56.960 you get to the bus stop without incident or seeing 0:50:56.960 --> 0:51:00.640 a single cop waiting at bus stops. It feels like 0:51:00.680 --> 0:51:04.080 an eternity, but today it's worse. Within a few minutes, 0:51:04.080 --> 0:51:07.000 the blue metro bus does pull up. The bus driver 0:51:07.200 --> 0:51:12.080 gestures you want The electronic ticketing system isn't turned on. 0:51:12.600 --> 0:51:15.000 You peek up to the driver. The look in her 0:51:15.000 --> 0:51:17.680 eyes is telling you just a head on back. At 0:51:17.719 --> 0:51:21.200 least you know she's probably on your side. You picked 0:51:21.239 --> 0:51:23.400 this bus not because it's the most direct route to 0:51:23.440 --> 0:51:26.520 your boyfriend's place. It's not, but because he gets you 0:51:26.560 --> 0:51:29.320 close enough while avoiding the checkpoints you and your internet 0:51:29.320 --> 0:51:32.720 buddies have mapped out. It's a slower, more jagged route, 0:51:32.800 --> 0:51:34.520 but at least you get to relax for a while 0:51:34.600 --> 0:51:37.080 and enjoy the ride. And hey, you can get an 0:51:37.080 --> 0:51:38.839 in person look at the rest of the city under 0:51:38.880 --> 0:51:42.600 the curfew and police occupation. The ride is now closing 0:51:42.640 --> 0:51:44.759 in on a little over half an hour, About ten 0:51:44.800 --> 0:51:47.880 more minutes until you get off. Your heart's racing you 0:51:47.960 --> 0:51:51.440 might actually do this. In your flash of nervous excitement, 0:51:51.520 --> 0:51:55.040 you look up ahead on the road and your face drops. 0:51:55.400 --> 0:51:58.319 About half a mile up ahead, you spot a checkpoint. 0:51:59.000 --> 0:52:02.320 Fuck no, this, this is wrong. This wasn't on the map. 0:52:02.920 --> 0:52:04.919 The checkpoint on this street was supposed to be further 0:52:05.040 --> 0:52:08.240 up the road. After you get off, your mind flashes 0:52:08.239 --> 0:52:12.680 through different possibilities. Did the cops change the checkpoint this morning? Wait? 0:52:12.719 --> 0:52:15.480 Did the police find the database map on telegram? And 0:52:15.480 --> 0:52:18.560 are getting at false info? You stop yourself from thinking. 0:52:18.600 --> 0:52:21.520 Because you realize you need to act now and think later. 0:52:21.960 --> 0:52:23.920 You jump out of your seat and sprint up the 0:52:23.960 --> 0:52:26.799 bus towards the driver. You blurt out, I need to 0:52:26.800 --> 0:52:31.600 get off this right now. Please. The driver looks ahead, 0:52:31.920 --> 0:52:34.640 looks at you, and tilts her head down and pulls 0:52:34.800 --> 0:52:39.439 over quick. That's all she says to you. You dart 0:52:39.480 --> 0:52:41.879 out of the bus and into the half residential, half 0:52:41.960 --> 0:52:46.960 retail labyrinth, and as you're running, you hear sirens. Fuck 0:52:47.160 --> 0:52:50.600 they saw you. Your head swivels around to catch a glance. 0:52:50.960 --> 0:52:54.279 One car from the checkpoint is headed your way. You 0:52:54.480 --> 0:52:56.879 hope the bus driver doesn't get in trouble, but right 0:52:56.880 --> 0:53:00.160 now that's not your problem, you think. First thing you 0:53:00.200 --> 0:53:02.480 need to do is prevent the vehicle from pursuing you. 0:53:03.040 --> 0:53:06.120 So off the big streets. You take a second to 0:53:06.160 --> 0:53:09.120 tighten the messenger bag around your body. And here we 0:53:09.200 --> 0:53:12.239 go to You're right. You see a walled courtyard for 0:53:12.280 --> 0:53:15.680 a small two story apartment. Estimate the wall is eight 0:53:15.719 --> 0:53:18.680 feet tall. Doable. You turn out the street and run 0:53:18.719 --> 0:53:21.640 towards the wall, slowly gaining speed, jump up and plunch 0:53:21.640 --> 0:53:23.799 your foot on the side. Then your arms reach up 0:53:23.840 --> 0:53:26.120 and grab the top. It's a bit of a struggle 0:53:26.160 --> 0:53:27.960 to pull yourself up. You've got some stuff weighing you 0:53:28.080 --> 0:53:30.480 down and you're a bit out of practice, but you 0:53:30.560 --> 0:53:32.920 get up. You hop down onto the other side and 0:53:33.000 --> 0:53:36.000 keep going for now. You barrow through some dense bushes 0:53:36.040 --> 0:53:38.440 and vault a few small railings as you traverse the 0:53:38.480 --> 0:53:41.799 side streets. Soon enough you're far enough away from the car, 0:53:41.880 --> 0:53:44.279 with plenty of obstacles in between you and it that 0:53:44.480 --> 0:53:48.640 you feel like you can catch a quick breather. Now 0:53:48.680 --> 0:53:50.799 you have a choice hide it out here for a 0:53:50.840 --> 0:53:54.000 bit or figure out a way to your boyfriends. You 0:53:54.120 --> 0:53:56.560 still got a decent sense of where you are. The 0:53:56.600 --> 0:53:59.320 destination should be only about ten blocks away. Now, in 0:53:59.360 --> 0:54:02.919 a diagonal direction, you'll get plenty of time to rest 0:54:02.960 --> 0:54:06.080 your boyfriend's place, so you figure you should continue on. 0:54:06.920 --> 0:54:09.280 As you're about to head on your way to armored 0:54:09.320 --> 0:54:13.399 state troopers turned the corner on foot. You remember you're 0:54:13.560 --> 0:54:16.680 still pretty close to the checkpoint. One look at you 0:54:16.760 --> 0:54:19.960 with your hands on your knees. As you pant, the 0:54:20.000 --> 0:54:23.600 cops know you're out of place. Stop, yells the cop. 0:54:23.840 --> 0:54:28.000 You're being detained. Fuck time to book it, gonna have 0:54:28.080 --> 0:54:30.239 to think as you run, good news is is that 0:54:30.400 --> 0:54:33.400 they're in armor. Bad news is that you're tired and 0:54:33.440 --> 0:54:36.160 your outfit is blown. You can change clothes once you 0:54:36.200 --> 0:54:38.239 get to your boyfriends, so you decide the best course 0:54:38.280 --> 0:54:40.640 of action now is to make it hard for two 0:54:40.680 --> 0:54:43.040 people in armor to follow you. Time to put some 0:54:43.040 --> 0:54:46.440 obstacles between you and them. You're already mostly out of 0:54:46.440 --> 0:54:48.960 the retail area, which means it's time to hop some 0:54:49.000 --> 0:54:52.600 backyard fencees Ferris Bueller's Day Off Shit. You make a 0:54:52.600 --> 0:54:54.879 sharp left turn behind the car and into someone's yard, 0:54:55.040 --> 0:54:57.479 up and over their fence. One hand grabs on top, 0:54:57.560 --> 0:54:59.320 one hand goes to the far side, and you flip 0:54:59.320 --> 0:55:02.600 your body over. Next few fences are shorter, regular speed 0:55:02.680 --> 0:55:05.680 vaults will do. The sound of the clinky tactle boots 0:55:05.760 --> 0:55:08.719 chasing you gets quieter as you traverse through the yards 0:55:08.760 --> 0:55:11.759 and zig zigging around blocks. Before you know it, you're 0:55:11.760 --> 0:55:14.440 on the back street of your partner's place. Only a 0:55:14.440 --> 0:55:16.799 few more steps and you can see their backyard in 0:55:16.840 --> 0:55:19.560 the distance. You quick to in your head and look around. 0:55:19.760 --> 0:55:21.920 From what you can see, you've lost the State troopers. 0:55:22.480 --> 0:55:25.560 You scurry through four more yards before you reach your target. 0:55:26.160 --> 0:55:28.959 You let it a sigh of relief. You jogged past 0:55:29.040 --> 0:55:32.040 the side yard towards the front. You probably should use 0:55:32.080 --> 0:55:34.960 the front door before you knock. You take a look 0:55:35.000 --> 0:55:38.239 inside your messenger bag. You unclipped the latch, and inside 0:55:38.360 --> 0:55:42.160 lies a smashed pile of cupcake crumbs with pink frosting 0:55:42.200 --> 0:55:46.960 coating the insides of your bag. Well, at least I 0:55:47.040 --> 0:55:50.440 made it in one piece, you say out loud. After 0:55:50.520 --> 0:55:59.480 an exhausting trek, you finally knock on the door. It 0:55:59.560 --> 0:56:02.840 could happen in here podcast. Robert Evans. Sophie is not 0:56:02.960 --> 0:56:05.520 here today, so I get to open the episode with 0:56:05.600 --> 0:56:10.560 a tonal grunting um because she was unable to stop me. Uh, 0:56:10.600 --> 0:56:13.839 welcome to the podcast that this is talking about things 0:56:13.880 --> 0:56:17.680 falling apart? How to you know, make it not? Maybe? Uh? 0:56:17.719 --> 0:56:20.920 My guest today, well, my my co host today. First 0:56:21.040 --> 0:56:23.919 is Garrison Davis. Garrison, how you doing today? I'm doing 0:56:23.960 --> 0:56:26.960 good good. We have a little bit of a fun update. 0:56:27.000 --> 0:56:29.000 This actually happened last week, but this will be the 0:56:29.040 --> 0:56:32.399 first episode we're recording since it happened. Um last week. 0:56:32.440 --> 0:56:35.480 We put up some links to ago fund me and 0:56:35.520 --> 0:56:37.759 a couple of different episodes of Bastards and of It 0:56:37.800 --> 0:56:41.000 could happen here to try to help a woman named 0:56:41.040 --> 0:56:44.760 Ruba who lives in Portland, UM and is a community 0:56:44.800 --> 0:56:48.560 activists save her house. UM. When we started the fundraiser, 0:56:48.640 --> 0:56:51.279 she'd raised about twenty eight grand to to you know, 0:56:51.520 --> 0:56:55.319 get basically keep her home. UM, and it's up to 0:56:55.680 --> 0:56:58.400 the fifty grand she needed. Y'all did that in about 0:56:58.440 --> 0:57:01.759 three days. UM. So you've you've you've kept a woman 0:57:01.800 --> 0:57:04.320 in her home UM and allowed her and her family 0:57:04.400 --> 0:57:07.280 to stay where they are. And I'm just extremely grateful 0:57:07.320 --> 0:57:12.640 to everybody who donated, who shared, UM, it's just awesome. UM. 0:57:12.680 --> 0:57:15.120 You know this comes after earlier in this year you 0:57:15.160 --> 0:57:17.880 all funded the Portland Diaper Bank. UM. I just continue 0:57:17.920 --> 0:57:22.560 to be very impressed with with how how much people 0:57:22.600 --> 0:57:25.400 who listen to these shows are willing to throw down 0:57:25.440 --> 0:57:28.000 to help people out. So thank you all. UH. And 0:57:28.040 --> 0:57:30.160 now I'm going to hand it off to Garrison. Garrison, 0:57:30.240 --> 0:57:31.560 what are we? What are we? What are we? What 0:57:31.560 --> 0:57:33.760 are we? What are we? What are we talking about? Today? 0:57:34.080 --> 0:57:38.360 So today we're gonna be talking about and discussing two 0:57:38.480 --> 0:57:43.880 of kind of my favorite practical skill sets. Hey been 0:57:44.040 --> 0:57:48.320 training for I don't know seven eight, I think almost 0:57:48.320 --> 0:57:52.880 eight years now Um, and it's what, yeah, one of 0:57:52.960 --> 0:57:55.800 one of my favorite interests. It's useful very practically. It's 0:57:55.800 --> 0:57:59.720 also useful for fun. We're talking about uh parkour, which 0:58:00.040 --> 0:58:02.200 people may have heard me discussed before, but also just 0:58:02.280 --> 0:58:05.200 kind of like stealth in general, UM, and how to 0:58:05.240 --> 0:58:09.680 be mindful of your presence among other people. UM. As 0:58:09.760 --> 0:58:13.280 a big, clumsy guy who's worked extensively with you in 0:58:13.480 --> 0:58:16.960 aggressive situations, I can confirm that your parkour is very, 0:58:17.920 --> 0:58:20.160 very effective because you are a fast little set of 0:58:20.200 --> 0:58:24.720 a bitch, very good at getting away from the cops 0:58:24.800 --> 0:58:26.240 and getting to where you need to be. At the 0:58:26.280 --> 0:58:30.200 film things, it was always, um kind of amazing, as 0:58:30.240 --> 0:58:32.600 frustrating as it was sometimes when you would when you 0:58:32.640 --> 0:58:35.600 would start out ahead of everybody, but I can't argue 0:58:35.680 --> 0:58:39.360 with the results. So and to help us kind of 0:58:39.760 --> 0:58:44.200 talk about Parkorn stealth, I have brought on a friend 0:58:44.200 --> 0:58:48.440 of mine who is the person who mostly taught me 0:58:48.840 --> 0:58:52.800 UM Parker and stealth, my friend Rick, who has been 0:58:52.800 --> 0:58:56.080 teaching Parker for a long time. UM, say hi, Rick, 0:58:58.200 --> 0:59:01.240 that that that's right. Rick is very uh not super social, 0:59:01.280 --> 0:59:03.479 so it's I think it's amazing that I was able 0:59:03.520 --> 0:59:07.600 to convince him to come in a podcast pretty funny. Um. 0:59:07.720 --> 0:59:09.200 First off, Rick, do you want to kind of just 0:59:09.240 --> 0:59:12.160 like give your definition of like Parker in general, because 0:59:12.160 --> 0:59:13.960 I know whenever we say Parker, everyone just thinks to 0:59:14.040 --> 0:59:19.760 the office, um, which I know you find frustrating. But yeah, 0:59:19.800 --> 0:59:22.400 for people who maybe aren't as into it as us, 0:59:22.520 --> 0:59:24.240 don't want just give the kind of a brief overview 0:59:24.360 --> 0:59:28.880 of of Parker as like a concept. Uh, Parker is 0:59:29.520 --> 0:59:34.560 a really annoying concept to actually pin down. UM. But 0:59:35.400 --> 0:59:39.960 basically speaking, it's movement with purpose. You are somewhere, you 0:59:40.000 --> 0:59:42.800 want to get somewhere, and you're trying to find the 0:59:42.840 --> 0:59:44.960 best way of doing that. When we're training, we kind 0:59:44.960 --> 0:59:51.720 of focus on efficiency, safety, speed, and the reason behind 0:59:51.760 --> 0:59:57.120 the movement. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's thinking of it 0:59:57.200 --> 0:59:59.080 more as like the movement with purpose or like like 0:59:59.160 --> 1:00:02.560 intentional move meant um is much better than thinking of 1:00:02.560 --> 1:00:05.800 it's like like parkour isn't like flips. Like flips and 1:00:05.920 --> 1:00:09.320 that kind of stuff is more of what we call 1:00:09.360 --> 1:00:11.680 like um, free running. It's it's more of like a 1:00:11.720 --> 1:00:13.600 creative expression. It's more of like a kind of kind 1:00:13.640 --> 1:00:16.640 of like a sport where it's like parkorse more usually, 1:00:16.800 --> 1:00:18.640 I mean there's always gonna people that are going to 1:00:18.720 --> 1:00:20.000 fight you on this in the park work in the 1:00:20.000 --> 1:00:22.880 Parker community, but it's generally Parker is kind of more 1:00:22.920 --> 1:00:26.800 based on utility. So like last last summer at the protests, 1:00:27.360 --> 1:00:30.000 I I I used you know, Parker in a lot 1:00:30.000 --> 1:00:32.040 of different ways, both to like you know, get somewhere 1:00:32.040 --> 1:00:34.840 specifically or park Horse grade. It is like a recovery tool, 1:00:34.880 --> 1:00:37.760 like if you get pushed over by cops. Um, park 1:00:37.800 --> 1:00:40.000 Work could be very useful for like getting up very fast. 1:00:40.280 --> 1:00:42.000 You know. It's like all that kind of more practical 1:00:42.480 --> 1:00:44.520 side of things. And I've used Parker you know before 1:00:44.560 --> 1:00:47.400 I was doing filming at different kind of activism related 1:00:48.040 --> 1:00:52.040 type things. It's just it's a super useful skill to have, UM. 1:00:52.120 --> 1:00:53.880 And today I wanted to talk talk a bit about 1:00:53.920 --> 1:00:59.160 like Parkorse practical application in you know, conflict ish scenarios, 1:00:59.200 --> 1:01:04.440 but also wanted to touch on stealth UM as you know, 1:01:05.000 --> 1:01:08.280 sometimes you don't need Parker and if you can avoid 1:01:08.280 --> 1:01:10.520 a scenario where you have to use it would be 1:01:10.600 --> 1:01:12.920 kind of great. So I've asked Rick to kind of 1:01:12.920 --> 1:01:15.360 prepare a few things on stealth, which then we'll kind 1:01:15.360 --> 1:01:17.520 of you know, bounce off each other and talk kind 1:01:17.520 --> 1:01:20.920 of a general discussion of Parker and stealth in general 1:01:21.200 --> 1:01:25.000 and how it relates to kind of conflict scenarios. Um. So, Rick, 1:01:25.040 --> 1:01:27.160 where would you like to start for you know, a 1:01:27.240 --> 1:01:33.600 stealth overview. Well, in conflict with other people, there's like 1:01:33.840 --> 1:01:38.160 three different levels of the conflict um and all of 1:01:38.200 --> 1:01:44.200 these get trained in different places. Usually there's the actual 1:01:44.800 --> 1:01:49.720 um like conflict. The combat, which is more of a 1:01:49.760 --> 1:01:53.360 martial arts or gun training or weapon training of any 1:01:53.440 --> 1:01:57.160 kind as well, compares you for that beneath that is 1:01:57.280 --> 1:02:00.320 the Parker level, where you can avoid getting into the 1:02:00.320 --> 1:02:02.840 conflict in the first place. If you can get away 1:02:03.080 --> 1:02:05.280 from the situation. Yeah, if you're more of an arm's 1:02:05.320 --> 1:02:07.360 length of way, then you can create more distance between 1:02:07.400 --> 1:02:09.640 you and someone it's trying to hurt you. And in 1:02:11.040 --> 1:02:13.680 nine percent of conflict situations, that's going to be a 1:02:13.720 --> 1:02:17.240 better self defense option than literally any weapon you could carry. 1:02:17.560 --> 1:02:21.160 Getting the hell away is always the preferred There's there's 1:02:21.320 --> 1:02:24.400 there's a really good comic um It's it's like it's 1:02:24.440 --> 1:02:26.160 it's like a it's like a like like a comedy 1:02:26.160 --> 1:02:28.720 comic of like someone someone trying to get into like 1:02:28.720 --> 1:02:31.400 a knife fight and you're just like, nope, I'm running 1:02:31.400 --> 1:02:35.479 away because there's no there's no winner in a knife fight. 1:02:35.800 --> 1:02:37.840 The only way to win a knife fight is to 1:02:37.920 --> 1:02:40.840 be oh far away from someone with a knife. Yeah, 1:02:40.880 --> 1:02:44.120 I mean literally, Again, the only justified situation I can 1:02:44.160 --> 1:02:46.640 think of to physically getting into a knife fight is 1:02:46.680 --> 1:02:49.160 like what happened on the Portland Max train. When someone 1:02:49.200 --> 1:02:52.080 else can't get away, Yeah, you're still gonna stick them. 1:02:52.320 --> 1:02:54.480 And the two guys who did that died. They died. 1:02:54.680 --> 1:02:57.640 Yeah yeah, um, not that they did the wrong thing, 1:02:57.680 --> 1:02:59.520 they did the only thing they could. But that's what 1:02:59.600 --> 1:03:02.480 a knife it is. So yeah, it's being able to 1:03:02.520 --> 1:03:05.360 get the funk away as the best self defense. Yeah. 1:03:05.480 --> 1:03:09.040 I carry weapons with me wherever I go, but I 1:03:09.080 --> 1:03:12.360 don't want to ever use them. My first response is 1:03:12.400 --> 1:03:18.040 always going to be look for an escape path. Yeah yeah. 1:03:18.040 --> 1:03:20.480 A weapon is only for if you can't get away 1:03:20.640 --> 1:03:23.360 or if someone else can't get away. So pretty much 1:03:23.560 --> 1:03:27.040 like yeah, well yeah, I've always been interested because again 1:03:27.080 --> 1:03:30.560 I've watched you know, Garrison hop away from cops over 1:03:30.640 --> 1:03:33.280 fences where I had to like, you know, fall over 1:03:33.320 --> 1:03:38.000 the fence, essentially because I'm not nearly as good. I'm 1:03:38.040 --> 1:03:40.600 someone who exercises. But like number one, is it even 1:03:40.600 --> 1:03:43.400 possible to like learn this stuff without fucking your thirty 1:03:43.400 --> 1:03:45.800 three year old body up a bunch in the process. 1:03:46.560 --> 1:03:50.400 That's a lot of scared of is like over sixty, 1:03:50.520 --> 1:03:55.080 and he's good, very good. He's actually like one of 1:03:55.160 --> 1:04:01.080 my high intermediate, low advanced students, honestly, and he started 1:04:01.080 --> 1:04:05.960 when he was like fifty. How do you uh, I 1:04:06.000 --> 1:04:08.120 mean like it it just seems like injury, I guess 1:04:08.200 --> 1:04:11.360 because my my my stereotypical view of it is like 1:04:11.440 --> 1:04:14.040 a bunch of jumping up on buildings and leaping over 1:04:14.080 --> 1:04:18.040 stuff like, um, it seems like injuries would be a 1:04:18.080 --> 1:04:21.720 pretty common fact. Um. So I guess that's kind of 1:04:21.760 --> 1:04:24.280 like always been my first concern there, like how do 1:04:24.320 --> 1:04:26.920 you how do you how do you train people to 1:04:27.000 --> 1:04:30.120 do this stuff with a minimum of risk? Well, that's 1:04:30.400 --> 1:04:32.960 kind of always the focus of my teaching. There certainly 1:04:33.000 --> 1:04:36.240 are other instructors out there, like the guy who taught 1:04:36.240 --> 1:04:39.680 me Parker was basically this is a con vault. This 1:04:39.720 --> 1:04:43.720 is what it looks like. Do it my training? Like 1:04:44.040 --> 1:04:47.120 I sucked at Parker when I started, So my teaching 1:04:47.160 --> 1:04:51.320 method has been coming at this as a sort of Okay, 1:04:51.360 --> 1:04:53.240 I'm gonna try to break this down into as many 1:04:53.280 --> 1:04:55.320 pieces as I can, and I'm going to try to 1:04:55.400 --> 1:05:00.320 keep you completely safe. Um, Bumps and bruises do happen 1:05:00.360 --> 1:05:04.600 when you're training park or that's just unavoidable. It's learning 1:05:04.600 --> 1:05:08.640 how to do walking but fancy so you get bruised 1:05:08.640 --> 1:05:11.120 when you're learning how to walk. You get bruised when 1:05:11.120 --> 1:05:13.439 you're learning every technique in parker. But I've been doing 1:05:13.440 --> 1:05:15.919 it for fourteen years now and I've never broken any 1:05:15.920 --> 1:05:20.320 of my bones. If you do it right, you shouldn't 1:05:20.320 --> 1:05:23.680 be able to stay safe when training you. Definitely, if 1:05:23.680 --> 1:05:27.080 you can get someone who's more experienced, getting them to 1:05:27.480 --> 1:05:29.840 break down steps for you is very useful, whether that 1:05:29.880 --> 1:05:32.080 be like a park or gym in your area or 1:05:32.120 --> 1:05:33.920 just like a friend that that's that's been that's been 1:05:34.080 --> 1:05:37.280 messing around trying to like train with somebody is probably 1:05:37.360 --> 1:05:39.600 one of the most important things, um, is to have 1:05:39.680 --> 1:05:41.760 someone else there both if you want to get hurt 1:05:41.800 --> 1:05:43.840 and need help, but to to kind of prevent to 1:05:44.200 --> 1:05:46.000 help prevent that from even happening in the first place. 1:05:46.000 --> 1:05:48.680 Because there's a lot of like very simple moves that 1:05:48.760 --> 1:05:52.680 can be introduced in very safe environments. I've I've I've 1:05:52.720 --> 1:05:54.880 been wanting to get Roberts down to the gym for 1:05:54.920 --> 1:05:56.440 like over a year now just to go over like 1:05:56.440 --> 1:05:59.800 a few basic kind of stuff that's just really really useful, 1:06:00.120 --> 1:06:02.640 pretty and like pretty easy. Like we're not we're not 1:06:02.720 --> 1:06:05.840 jumping to like you know, doing like roof topping right 1:06:05.880 --> 1:06:07.560 where we're like jumping from one roof to another. We're 1:06:07.560 --> 1:06:09.800 starting by we're starting by being like, here's like a 1:06:09.800 --> 1:06:12.520 concrete barricade. What's the safest way of getting over this 1:06:12.600 --> 1:06:14.360 if you're under pressure? Right? It's it's it's it's that 1:06:14.440 --> 1:06:17.760 kind of stuff that's specifically useful and like conflict scenarios, right, 1:06:17.760 --> 1:06:20.080 because like when we're when we're facing in a riot line, 1:06:20.120 --> 1:06:22.000 I'm not gonna be doing like flips and cart wheels 1:06:22.000 --> 1:06:24.280 to like get over fences. I'm trying to be like, 1:06:24.480 --> 1:06:27.400 what's the safest, fastest way I can get over this thing? Well, 1:06:27.440 --> 1:06:29.360 making sure I'm not going to get like shot with 1:06:29.360 --> 1:06:31.880 the rubber bullet, right, that's kind of it's it's, it's, 1:06:31.880 --> 1:06:34.080 it's it's very different from like what you see on YouTube, right, 1:06:34.120 --> 1:06:36.440 YouTube is very like showy people are like trying to 1:06:36.520 --> 1:06:38.600 like basically when what you see on YouTube is people 1:06:38.600 --> 1:06:42.280 are doing people are doing like a choreographic performance, whereas 1:06:42.400 --> 1:06:45.520 Parker from a utility standpoint is very different from what 1:06:45.600 --> 1:06:50.480 you see online. Yeah, and that's one of the things 1:06:50.600 --> 1:06:52.920 that we try to train too when we're training Parkore 1:06:53.240 --> 1:06:56.520 is we just give ourselves an environment and say, okay, 1:06:56.520 --> 1:06:59.240 I'm going now, yeah, and like do it over and 1:06:59.240 --> 1:07:01.680 over again and try to figure out what's the best 1:07:01.720 --> 1:07:04.480 way of getting over this specific path. Right if you 1:07:04.520 --> 1:07:06.600 can like make a designed path, be like, you know, 1:07:06.640 --> 1:07:08.680 even doing this at like a playground or like any 1:07:08.760 --> 1:07:10.480 any place with like logs, you know, you can do 1:07:10.480 --> 1:07:12.480 Parker in the forest and stuff. Be like I'm just 1:07:12.640 --> 1:07:15.320 like set this path and experiment with how many ways 1:07:15.360 --> 1:07:18.840 can I move through this kind of set set of obstacles, um, 1:07:18.880 --> 1:07:21.000 And you can kind of figure out Parker on your own, 1:07:21.120 --> 1:07:23.520 on in in in that kind of way, because because 1:07:23.560 --> 1:07:25.680 your body knows what it's gonna do, Like, you know, 1:07:25.920 --> 1:07:28.280 people have been moving like this for thousands and thousands 1:07:28.320 --> 1:07:30.720 of years. It's only in the past few hundred years 1:07:30.720 --> 1:07:32.880 where we have like kind of lost this ability or 1:07:32.920 --> 1:07:36.640 it's like become it's become less necessary. So like we 1:07:36.640 --> 1:07:39.680 we know how to interact with our environment in creative ways, 1:07:39.720 --> 1:07:41.680 like we we we know how to do this. Um, 1:07:41.720 --> 1:07:45.800 it's just that, you know, we the past, the past 1:07:45.800 --> 1:07:48.920 few centuries, it's been less important. And I think Parker 1:07:49.040 --> 1:07:51.480 is really fun because you can kind of rediscover interacting 1:07:51.480 --> 1:07:54.280 with your environment in these, you know, kind of more 1:07:54.320 --> 1:07:58.240 wild ways. It's something that we all do as children, 1:07:58.760 --> 1:08:03.360 just like evolutionarily. For some reason, as children we do 1:08:03.440 --> 1:08:06.840 this as play. We climb trees and we try to 1:08:06.880 --> 1:08:10.880 go over fences. It's just that something in our society 1:08:11.000 --> 1:08:13.920 has made a shift so that when we become adults, 1:08:13.920 --> 1:08:18.240 it's suddenly not acceptable for us to do this anymore. Yeah. 1:08:18.280 --> 1:08:19.559 I mean, I can remember when I was a little 1:08:19.600 --> 1:08:21.519 kid growing up on the farm. We had a bullpen 1:08:21.800 --> 1:08:24.320 because we kept the bowl away from the cows, and 1:08:24.640 --> 1:08:26.719 my my cousin and I would hop over the fence 1:08:26.760 --> 1:08:28.240 and we would throw stuff at the bowl and then 1:08:28.280 --> 1:08:30.120 when it started to charge, we would hop back over 1:08:30.160 --> 1:08:33.200 the fence. I mean, obviously I'd never do that today 1:08:33.200 --> 1:08:34.840 because it's mean to throw things at a bowl. I 1:08:34.920 --> 1:08:37.599 was six, But also I couldn't physically hop over the 1:08:37.600 --> 1:08:42.400 fence that way today. But I'm guessing within Like, I 1:08:42.400 --> 1:08:44.839 don't know, even just like a few hours of practice, 1:08:44.840 --> 1:08:46.439 you could figure out a lot of ways together. I 1:08:46.439 --> 1:08:49.520 could be back to fucking with bowls. Is what exactly? 1:08:49.680 --> 1:08:53.879 You don't need to kiss kiss the bull fucking goodbye? 1:08:54.040 --> 1:08:56.360 You can? We can. We can go back to this. 1:08:57.240 --> 1:09:00.439 We could go I could, I could return to tradition. Yes, exactly, 1:09:01.320 --> 1:09:04.240 what is the degree of this that can be done without? Again, 1:09:04.280 --> 1:09:06.160 like you know we have we have a wide variety 1:09:06.200 --> 1:09:08.680 of income levels that listen to this show, Um, what 1:09:08.800 --> 1:09:10.519 is the degree this can be done without like paying 1:09:10.520 --> 1:09:13.240 for training? You know that? Like, like, how is it 1:09:13.280 --> 1:09:15.599 even possible to like start on this kind of thing 1:09:15.640 --> 1:09:18.320 if you're in reasonable shape, you know, on your own 1:09:18.360 --> 1:09:22.240 without paying someone? Because that that seems like a recipe 1:09:22.280 --> 1:09:24.960 for breaking something to me. But again, I don't know. 1:09:25.080 --> 1:09:29.839 I don't know. Ship It is very much about knowing 1:09:30.040 --> 1:09:34.760 yourself and knowing what you're ready for. Uh, this was 1:09:34.840 --> 1:09:37.080 something I mean I say that I never broke a 1:09:37.120 --> 1:09:39.120 bone in my training, but there were a couple of 1:09:39.200 --> 1:09:42.920 times I started pushing myself further than I should have, 1:09:43.000 --> 1:09:44.920 and it would have been really good to have someone 1:09:44.920 --> 1:09:47.880 there to say, hey, you probably not ready for this. 1:09:48.000 --> 1:09:51.960 Yet let's break this down into little pieces. But if 1:09:52.000 --> 1:09:58.120 you come at it methodically and you don't endanger yourself 1:09:58.160 --> 1:10:01.679 too much, what I started out with Parker is I 1:10:01.680 --> 1:10:03.559 would just put a piece of tape on the ground 1:10:03.760 --> 1:10:05.800 and another piece of tape and jump from one piece 1:10:05.840 --> 1:10:09.240 of tape to the other. And went out to parking 1:10:09.240 --> 1:10:13.800 lots and jumped from just an arbitrary pebble to the 1:10:13.840 --> 1:10:19.120 curb on the parking lot and found some just railings 1:10:19.160 --> 1:10:22.439 and learned how to go over those railings safely, and 1:10:22.680 --> 1:10:25.840 gradually just started building up to higher and higher things. 1:10:25.880 --> 1:10:27.800 You always want to start at ground level when you're 1:10:27.800 --> 1:10:30.720 training parkers. Don't go up to high places for your 1:10:30.720 --> 1:10:34.720 first thing. Yeah. I think there there's a lot of 1:10:34.760 --> 1:10:37.640 like instructional videos on YouTube too that that are not 1:10:37.680 --> 1:10:39.200 just like showing off. It's actually people trying to like 1:10:39.200 --> 1:10:42.000 break down movements. So you can like get find a 1:10:42.040 --> 1:10:44.439 specific video and be like, Okay, I want to, you know, 1:10:44.479 --> 1:10:47.000 bring this on my phone, go out into like a playground, 1:10:47.040 --> 1:10:50.519 a parking lot, like like a wooded area, and be like, okay, 1:10:50.560 --> 1:10:52.640 this is this is this one vault. I'mnn watch the 1:10:52.720 --> 1:10:55.000 video and I'm gonna try to replicate it myself. That's 1:10:55.000 --> 1:10:58.280 really the the kind of easiest, cheapest way to kind 1:10:58.280 --> 1:11:01.760 of break that down without having to you know, pay 1:11:01.840 --> 1:11:05.519 someone tons of money. Um. You know, if Parker classes 1:11:05.560 --> 1:11:08.360 aren't the most expensive thing. Um. So that's if you 1:11:08.400 --> 1:11:10.680 do have a little bit of disposable income. I I 1:11:11.960 --> 1:11:13.800 like park Wor classes. I did them for a long time, 1:11:14.000 --> 1:11:16.800 but there was a certain point actually that like I 1:11:16.800 --> 1:11:19.960 couldn't afford classes anymore. And luckily I've been doing park 1:11:19.960 --> 1:11:22.280 wore enough at that point that I was able to 1:11:22.320 --> 1:11:24.760 become an assistant instructor, which means I've got like a 1:11:24.800 --> 1:11:29.120 free I got like a free membership in exchange for 1:11:29.200 --> 1:11:31.759 you know, helping out in classes, like a few hours 1:11:31.760 --> 1:11:33.439 a week. So that's what that's what I did for 1:11:33.520 --> 1:11:37.080 years when I couldn't afford classes. Is it's just help 1:11:37.200 --> 1:11:39.040 is help teach, which I mean eventually I got leveled 1:11:39.120 --> 1:11:41.880 up to being like a full time instructor. Um. So 1:11:42.000 --> 1:11:43.599 that is kind of the other way is you know, 1:11:43.840 --> 1:11:45.760 once you get enough stuff, there are you know, there's 1:11:45.760 --> 1:11:48.599 there's ways canna like make friends who know more Parker 1:11:48.680 --> 1:11:51.040 than you. You can do you know, outdoor training with them, 1:11:51.120 --> 1:11:53.559 which can be free. Um. But if you if you 1:11:53.600 --> 1:11:56.040 do really want like a like a gym environment, there 1:11:56.120 --> 1:11:57.880 is the ways of making class. It's not the most 1:11:57.880 --> 1:12:03.080 expensive thing. There's online groups that schedule meetups every now 1:12:03.120 --> 1:12:05.479 and then, so if you can find an online group 1:12:05.600 --> 1:12:07.840 in your area, you can go to one of their 1:12:07.920 --> 1:12:11.639 meetups and ask for advice. Not everyone's going to give 1:12:11.720 --> 1:12:13.800 the best advice. There are some people in the park 1:12:13.920 --> 1:12:19.400 or community who are always pushing their boundaries. They'll be 1:12:19.439 --> 1:12:23.120 in a cast half of the time. Um, the more 1:12:23.160 --> 1:12:28.479 advanced people, yeah, they generally, so always take advice with 1:12:28.520 --> 1:12:31.760 a grain of salt. Not everyone knows everything, and no 1:12:31.760 --> 1:12:34.920 one knows your body as well as you do. So 1:12:35.360 --> 1:12:37.840 you've got to keep yourself safe above everything else. You 1:12:37.880 --> 1:12:39.840 can't get better at park or if you break both 1:12:39.840 --> 1:12:44.560 of your legs. Yeah, that's always so a couple of 1:12:44.640 --> 1:12:48.280 questions here. Number one would be, obviously, I don't expect 1:12:48.320 --> 1:12:50.639 you know, like somebody's in Michigan or whatever. I don't 1:12:50.640 --> 1:12:53.040 expect you to know the best parkour instructor there. But 1:12:53.080 --> 1:12:55.360 if somebody is looking at going the gym route, are 1:12:55.400 --> 1:12:57.519 there kind of some hard and fast rules for determining 1:12:57.560 --> 1:13:00.320 whether or not these folks know what they're doing wing, Like, 1:13:00.439 --> 1:13:02.439 is there any kind of advice you have in terms 1:13:02.479 --> 1:13:04.080 of picking a gym or is he just kind of 1:13:04.120 --> 1:13:07.479 like go into Google maps and see see where the 1:13:07.479 --> 1:13:13.439 parkouri be. That's a little bit tough because especially since COVID, 1:13:13.600 --> 1:13:18.000 there's not many options for park origins out there. Um, 1:13:18.160 --> 1:13:21.439 my best advice would be go and if they let 1:13:21.479 --> 1:13:24.840 you just watch a class and see what's going on. Um, 1:13:25.120 --> 1:13:31.840 see how many people have casts? Yeah, yeah, back when 1:13:31.880 --> 1:13:36.639 I was learning parkour originally we would have basically two 1:13:36.640 --> 1:13:40.479 people in a cast all the time, just for the class. Yeah, 1:13:40.560 --> 1:13:42.840 I didn't know that the guy that I was trying 1:13:42.840 --> 1:13:46.960 to keep up with the whole times span three stints 1:13:47.000 --> 1:13:49.880 in a cast. Yeah, just funny because I've never got 1:13:49.880 --> 1:13:52.120 a serious injury ever. I was. I was always more 1:13:52.160 --> 1:13:55.240 careful in my training. But like the most I've gotten 1:13:55.360 --> 1:13:59.439 is like is like you know, like bruises and stuff. 1:13:59.479 --> 1:14:01.920 I've I've I've and I got to a relatively high 1:14:02.000 --> 1:14:05.960 level of parker like if years ago only took classes 1:14:06.000 --> 1:14:10.240 from me, But focus was always on breaking things down 1:14:10.600 --> 1:14:14.800 and making them accessible and safe. True. True, yeah, yeah, 1:14:14.800 --> 1:14:17.320 but there is there's definitely people who are more who 1:14:17.360 --> 1:14:19.880 are more carefree with their body and okay with hurting 1:14:19.920 --> 1:14:23.200 themselves to do something cool. Yeah, and some people will 1:14:23.240 --> 1:14:25.479 get away with that. So for folks who are there 1:14:25.520 --> 1:14:27.360 don't have the financial means to go to a gym 1:14:27.400 --> 1:14:29.679 where there's just nothing in their area, because as you've said, 1:14:30.080 --> 1:14:33.000 there's a plague. Um, if people are gonna you've given 1:14:33.040 --> 1:14:34.960 some advice on like how to start trying yourself. Are 1:14:34.960 --> 1:14:38.080 there any specific online resources you would recommend to folks 1:14:38.080 --> 1:14:40.000 who are you know, looking to get on unless on 1:14:40.040 --> 1:14:43.240 their own dip their toes in? Um, you know, YouTube 1:14:43.280 --> 1:14:45.800 channels or or people who you know do good like 1:14:45.880 --> 1:14:48.920 writing breakdowns, anything that you would, uh, you would push 1:14:48.920 --> 1:14:53.800 folks towards. I haven't been up to date on it recently. UM. 1:14:53.840 --> 1:14:58.160 A lot of the videos out there are garbage. UM. 1:14:58.280 --> 1:15:02.040 What I recommend you look for is you look for, 1:15:02.240 --> 1:15:05.400 first of all, explanation. UM. Second of all, if you 1:15:05.439 --> 1:15:10.040 can find videos of someone who's training something and they 1:15:10.080 --> 1:15:12.360 fail to do the move that they're trying to do correctly, 1:15:12.400 --> 1:15:13.960 and they fail to do the move that they're trying 1:15:14.000 --> 1:15:16.160 to do correctly, they fail and fail and fail and 1:15:16.160 --> 1:15:20.400 fail and then succeed. Mhm. That's an honest video. That's 1:15:20.880 --> 1:15:25.519 one that I would listen to more because they understand 1:15:25.560 --> 1:15:28.960 the process. The other videos out there are sort of 1:15:29.200 --> 1:15:32.720 greatest hits compilations and you don't get to see the 1:15:32.720 --> 1:15:37.320 whole process that goes into that. So I don't have 1:15:37.439 --> 1:15:40.639 a sense. I don't have any specific person or channel 1:15:40.680 --> 1:15:44.360 to recommend. But when you're going out there and looking 1:15:44.400 --> 1:15:48.920 for resources, just make sure that the person is putting 1:15:48.960 --> 1:15:53.360 some understanding into the fact that this is the process 1:15:53.400 --> 1:15:56.000 of training and it's not just this is how it's done. 1:15:56.040 --> 1:15:58.800 Do it now, you can do it. There is there 1:15:58.960 --> 1:16:01.439 is a there's a Parkore wiki which was like you know, 1:16:01.479 --> 1:16:03.519 Parkore dot fandom dot com that you can you can 1:16:03.560 --> 1:16:06.040 find like just like lists of all of the moves 1:16:06.040 --> 1:16:08.200 and they give you very like simple explanations of them, 1:16:08.200 --> 1:16:11.200 and they and they link to some videos, um and 1:16:11.280 --> 1:16:12.880 generally like if if you just want to learn more 1:16:12.880 --> 1:16:15.360 about it, then that's then that can be a good resource, 1:16:15.400 --> 1:16:17.559 just so you're familiar with all the different types of movement. 1:16:17.840 --> 1:16:19.800 But yeah, like make sure you take every video with 1:16:19.800 --> 1:16:21.320 a grain of salt, and you know, watch other watch 1:16:21.320 --> 1:16:23.840 other people's explanations and be like, Okay, I kind of 1:16:23.840 --> 1:16:25.960 like the way this person describes it versus this person, 1:16:26.240 --> 1:16:28.960 because you know, everyone teaches differently. Everyone teaches for kind 1:16:29.000 --> 1:16:31.840 of you know, different differently body types for different like 1:16:31.840 --> 1:16:35.680 you know, body like performance models. Um. So you know, 1:16:35.680 --> 1:16:37.719 because you can't just apply the same thing to everyone 1:16:37.760 --> 1:16:41.960 because everyone's everyone is different. But you know, the Parkore 1:16:41.960 --> 1:16:44.800 wiki is a decent resource. Um. And then you know 1:16:44.960 --> 1:16:48.280 there's YouTube is especially since since the two thousands there's 1:16:48.320 --> 1:16:51.240 been a plethora of content, most of most of it bad, 1:16:51.320 --> 1:16:53.800 but you know there's lots to at least look for. 1:16:54.479 --> 1:16:57.639 All right, Um, anything else you wanted to get into, Yeah, 1:16:57.760 --> 1:17:00.600 I wanted to kind of branch off of like the 1:17:00.680 --> 1:17:05.400 parkour discussion into kind of like, uh, the more kind 1:17:05.400 --> 1:17:08.439 of stealth based discussion of of kind of being aware 1:17:08.479 --> 1:17:11.519 of your presence in relation to other people and recond 1:17:11.520 --> 1:17:13.439 I know you were talking about like the different levels 1:17:13.479 --> 1:17:18.679 of stealthy. So you've got the combat training which prevents 1:17:18.720 --> 1:17:24.120 you from getting killed or captured in uh, the worst 1:17:24.160 --> 1:17:27.439 of scenarios, and then we have Parkore that you can 1:17:27.600 --> 1:17:31.320 use to prevent the combat in the first place, and 1:17:31.439 --> 1:17:35.679 stealth is what you use to prevent the chase from 1:17:35.720 --> 1:17:39.519 happening in the first place. It's kind of a tree 1:17:39.800 --> 1:17:43.200 of I really don't want to have to fight someone, 1:17:43.240 --> 1:17:45.639 so I'm going to run away instead. I really don't 1:17:45.640 --> 1:17:47.679 want to have to run away from someone, so I'm 1:17:47.680 --> 1:17:50.160 just going to try and not to be noticed by 1:17:50.280 --> 1:17:55.720 them instead. And that's been a lot of what my 1:17:55.800 --> 1:18:00.120 training in Parker has been focused around is just stay 1:18:00.200 --> 1:18:06.559 deescalated as possible with everything. Yeah, because we me and 1:18:06.680 --> 1:18:09.280 Rick have focused most of our PARKOURD training on on 1:18:09.479 --> 1:18:12.360 stealth UM as opposed to being you know, super strong 1:18:12.439 --> 1:18:17.599 or super powerful UM. And stealth always a really hard 1:18:17.600 --> 1:18:20.200 concept to talk about because it's kind of like nebulous 1:18:20.240 --> 1:18:23.559 in nature, because stealth isn't being invisible, right, It's it's 1:18:23.560 --> 1:18:28.000 not it's not being totally unnoticed. It's want. It's it's 1:18:28.080 --> 1:18:30.760 it's wanting to craft the way you're seen in a 1:18:30.800 --> 1:18:36.400 specific way. Yeah. Um, it's always been very difficult for 1:18:36.479 --> 1:18:40.320 me to explain what stealth is. The most recent definition 1:18:40.520 --> 1:18:44.840 that I've given for it is that everything that you do, 1:18:45.439 --> 1:18:49.479 everything that you are, gives off a certain amount of 1:18:49.600 --> 1:18:54.400 noise and a certain type of noise. So the way 1:18:54.400 --> 1:18:57.960 that you dress, you can dress in a very loud 1:18:58.040 --> 1:19:03.960 way with the hive is day glow, colors um something 1:19:04.000 --> 1:19:07.720 that makes you really easy to notice. But if you're 1:19:07.720 --> 1:19:11.839 in the right environment, that might be the right type 1:19:11.960 --> 1:19:14.599 of noise to be making to blend into a crowd. 1:19:14.880 --> 1:19:17.840 Like a three piece suit is also a very loud 1:19:18.000 --> 1:19:21.600 outfit to wear, but if you're on the streets of 1:19:21.640 --> 1:19:23.880 New York, that's normal. If you come into a park 1:19:23.920 --> 1:19:28.920 origin wearing a three piece suit, it's very abnormal. So 1:19:29.200 --> 1:19:31.760 that's not the right type of noise if you're trying 1:19:31.760 --> 1:19:35.840 to blend in there. Yeah, a lot of it's about 1:19:35.880 --> 1:19:38.600 kind of constructing the way people see you based on 1:19:38.680 --> 1:19:42.160 what environment you're in and who you're trying to remain 1:19:43.160 --> 1:19:45.439 undetected from, right, Because I mean they were like not 1:19:45.520 --> 1:19:49.040 even necessarily undetected, but just detected in a specific way 1:19:49.400 --> 1:19:52.400 because people eyes. People's eyes can glaze over a lot 1:19:52.439 --> 1:19:55.080 of a lot of stuff. If if just that the 1:19:55.160 --> 1:19:57.519 right puzzle pieces are put into their brain, that it's 1:19:57.560 --> 1:20:00.840 like nothing nothing to see here. Every everything is normal, 1:20:00.960 --> 1:20:03.320 nothing not nothing to be alerted, right, because what you're 1:20:03.320 --> 1:20:07.000 trying to do is prevent someone from being like alerted 1:20:07.080 --> 1:20:08.920 to your presence. That is kind of the main thing. 1:20:09.240 --> 1:20:12.400 So you can be within someone's sitelines, but the way 1:20:12.439 --> 1:20:15.120 that you're dressed, the way that you're moving, the way 1:20:15.120 --> 1:20:19.639 that you hold yourself fails to get their attention. They're 1:20:19.640 --> 1:20:23.760 subconscious registers that you're there, but it doesn't register consciously 1:20:23.880 --> 1:20:27.160 to them that you're there. It's the gray Man stuff 1:20:27.160 --> 1:20:29.240 that we were talking about with Chelsea, which again there's 1:20:29.600 --> 1:20:33.160 very frustrating chutty dimension to it. But the the original idea, 1:20:33.240 --> 1:20:36.960 before it got taken over as an entire fashion aesthetic, 1:20:37.080 --> 1:20:40.360 was if you're prepared, if you're if you're going to 1:20:40.439 --> 1:20:43.320 make yourself prepared for badge situations, you don't want to 1:20:43.320 --> 1:20:44.880 wear a bunch of tactical gear. You don't want to 1:20:44.880 --> 1:20:47.280 be dressed in like five combat pants. You don't want 1:20:47.280 --> 1:20:50.879 to be carrying like military backpacks and like the cargo 1:20:50.960 --> 1:20:54.400 pants with the you know, clearly bulging with weaponry. You 1:20:54.400 --> 1:20:56.559 don't want to be open carrying a gun. You want 1:20:56.600 --> 1:21:01.000 to be dressed, however, is going to least to least 1:21:01.000 --> 1:21:02.960 set you apart from the crowd, And that is, as 1:21:02.960 --> 1:21:04.960 you said, kind of vary. No, it's not a matter 1:21:05.000 --> 1:21:08.000 of like wearing all gray or wearing all black. Um, 1:21:08.320 --> 1:21:11.160 you're in downtown Salt Lake City, you know, a black 1:21:11.160 --> 1:21:14.160 hoodie and jeans might stand out more than it does 1:21:14.200 --> 1:21:16.599 if you're in downtown San Francisco, in which case you're 1:21:16.600 --> 1:21:20.160 gonna look like a million other people. I mean, and generally, 1:21:20.160 --> 1:21:23.080 if you're trying to avoid being seen, I recommend against 1:21:23.080 --> 1:21:26.960 wearing black basically at at all times, especially if you're 1:21:26.960 --> 1:21:30.200 trying to remain like actually invisible at night. You don't 1:21:30.200 --> 1:21:32.840 want to wear black because black is usually too dark. Um, 1:21:33.000 --> 1:21:37.879 you you want to wear like darker blues or darker greens. Um. Yeah, 1:21:37.920 --> 1:21:40.920 generally black is should be avoided. Um. Of course, like 1:21:40.960 --> 1:21:43.320 black block is a whole separate thing because black block 1:21:43.360 --> 1:21:46.920 are trying to remain anonymous within a crowd context. But 1:21:46.960 --> 1:21:48.760 you know, in a lot of cases, you don't want 1:21:48.760 --> 1:21:50.439 to be in black block at protests, or you want 1:21:50.479 --> 1:21:52.479 to be able to switch from black block to what 1:21:52.520 --> 1:21:55.320 we call like normy block very quickly. So like you know, 1:21:55.680 --> 1:21:59.320 quick changes are another kind of form of stealth um 1:21:59.360 --> 1:22:00.960 that you can like practice like you you can you 1:22:00.960 --> 1:22:03.280 can just practice doing quick changes, like in your apartment, 1:22:03.280 --> 1:22:05.559 be like, how fast can I get from this outfit 1:22:05.600 --> 1:22:08.040 to this outfit? Um? In like a small space, right, 1:22:08.080 --> 1:22:09.880 you can? You can you can practice these even like 1:22:09.920 --> 1:22:13.120 outside but specifically for like black block, changing both in 1:22:13.160 --> 1:22:16.720 and out of is a skill that needs to be practiced. Um. 1:22:16.760 --> 1:22:18.720 But overall, I think like there's a lot of other 1:22:18.760 --> 1:22:22.280 ways of being anonymous at a protest besides actually black block, Like, 1:22:22.280 --> 1:22:24.160 there's a lot of other kind of methods. Like black 1:22:24.160 --> 1:22:26.679 blocks are very specific tactic, but it's not a tactic 1:22:26.720 --> 1:22:28.559 that needs to get applied all the time. It's it's 1:22:28.560 --> 1:22:31.640 it's very you should be mindful that it has a 1:22:31.640 --> 1:22:34.120 lot of downsides. Um And based on what you're trying 1:22:34.160 --> 1:22:35.719 to do, there's a lot of other ways to dress 1:22:35.800 --> 1:22:40.280 that would maybe be better. Um. Yeah, yeah, it's this, 1:22:40.479 --> 1:22:43.240 um yeah. It's a little bit like angles of it 1:22:43.240 --> 1:22:45.000 are kind of what we talked about even in like 1:22:45.080 --> 1:22:48.120 the last week when we were talking about like storing, 1:22:48.400 --> 1:22:50.439 you know, food and canning food and like the value 1:22:50.479 --> 1:22:53.280 of paying attention to the cycle of like what is 1:22:53.320 --> 1:22:55.720 in stock and what is not stocked in stock during 1:22:55.760 --> 1:22:57.240 what seasons. It's kind of the same thing at the 1:22:57.280 --> 1:23:00.240 value of paying attention to how people dress and how 1:23:00.280 --> 1:23:03.000 people move and like what is a normal way to 1:23:03.080 --> 1:23:05.439 move about and wherever you live as opposed to like 1:23:05.479 --> 1:23:08.040 what stands out like it, there's a lot of value 1:23:08.080 --> 1:23:09.840 and a lot of self defense value, and just kind 1:23:09.880 --> 1:23:12.719 of paying attention to people wherever you live and getting 1:23:12.760 --> 1:23:15.759 an eye for what will stand out and what won't 1:23:15.800 --> 1:23:18.759 stand out. If you're if you, if you are someone 1:23:18.840 --> 1:23:21.240 for whom being able to blend in is something you 1:23:21.320 --> 1:23:24.360 see value in, you know? Yeah, Rick, do do Do 1:23:24.360 --> 1:23:26.320 you have any things kind of on that side of 1:23:26.400 --> 1:23:30.040 things or any like exercises people can do to improve 1:23:30.080 --> 1:23:35.680 their own personal stealth. Yeah, it's very very situational. You 1:23:35.760 --> 1:23:39.000 have to sort of study many different environments. The biggest 1:23:39.000 --> 1:23:42.720 advice that I give people for stealth all the time is, um, 1:23:43.120 --> 1:23:46.640 pay attention. You have to pay attention to the smallest 1:23:46.640 --> 1:23:51.040 details when I'm even just moving around my house, like 1:23:51.120 --> 1:23:55.080 the bathroom door lock. Um, when you twist the lock, 1:23:55.240 --> 1:23:58.000 the button pops out and makes a huge noise. I 1:23:58.200 --> 1:24:02.400 actually place my thomb over it and deaden the sound 1:24:02.640 --> 1:24:04.920 as I'm doing it. And I pay attention to the 1:24:05.000 --> 1:24:08.320 kind of noise that I make in every situation and 1:24:08.360 --> 1:24:10.920 try to minimize that as much as possible. I pay 1:24:10.960 --> 1:24:13.960 attention to which parts of my house make noise when 1:24:13.960 --> 1:24:21.880 you step on them, and avoid those places, um I UM. Basically, 1:24:22.640 --> 1:24:26.160 just pay attention to every noise that my body makes, 1:24:26.200 --> 1:24:29.479 that my environment makes as I'm moving through it. Also, 1:24:30.000 --> 1:24:33.519 you have to pay attention and study other people in 1:24:33.600 --> 1:24:37.080 different environments. You can go to a grocery store and 1:24:37.120 --> 1:24:41.559 watch the body language of the moms who are shopping 1:24:41.600 --> 1:24:44.680 with their kids, so that the people that normally you 1:24:44.720 --> 1:24:48.320 wouldn't pay attention to pay attention to them because they're 1:24:48.360 --> 1:24:50.720 doing a good job of blending in if you're not 1:24:50.800 --> 1:24:54.040 normally paying attention to them, and then try to start 1:24:54.160 --> 1:24:57.160 mimicking their body language. What I'll do when I go 1:24:57.240 --> 1:24:59.960 out is I don't directly look at anyone, but I 1:25:00.080 --> 1:25:04.200 paying attention to if I'm being paid attention to give 1:25:04.280 --> 1:25:09.040 myself that own that conscious feedback and say, hey, I 1:25:09.120 --> 1:25:13.040 wasn't all that stealthy this time, I kind of stuck out. Yeah, 1:25:13.080 --> 1:25:16.000 practicing your peripheral vision is definitely useful for that. I 1:25:16.040 --> 1:25:18.400 mean in terms of exercises. Yeah, just go into like 1:25:18.520 --> 1:25:20.400 parks or the places where there's a lot of people 1:25:20.640 --> 1:25:23.040 and like people watching and trying to figure out who 1:25:23.080 --> 1:25:24.800 does your eyes glaze over the most and what what 1:25:24.840 --> 1:25:26.800 are they doing to cause that. I think one one 1:25:26.800 --> 1:25:29.160 thing that me and Rick have talked about before is 1:25:29.200 --> 1:25:33.599 like every part of your body points somewhere, like whether 1:25:33.680 --> 1:25:38.280 that be your eyes, your nose, your chin, your arms, 1:25:38.360 --> 1:25:41.080 your hips, your chest, your hands, all of these things 1:25:41.160 --> 1:25:43.559 point in a direction. And if you can figure out 1:25:43.640 --> 1:25:46.880 which direction, you can point them to make people pay 1:25:46.920 --> 1:25:48.400 less attention to you. That's kind of one of the 1:25:48.400 --> 1:25:51.599 easier models understanding how to like walk and move in 1:25:51.600 --> 1:25:54.880 a stealthy manner that I think like out of all 1:25:54.880 --> 1:25:56.439 the different ways of thinking about and I think that's 1:25:56.720 --> 1:25:59.840 the way that's helped me the most. Um. It's being like, 1:25:59.840 --> 1:26:02.160 you know, if if my head is pointed up and 1:26:02.240 --> 1:26:04.639 my nose is pointed out and I'm moving my arms 1:26:04.680 --> 1:26:07.400 around a lot, that's people are gonna like like look 1:26:07.400 --> 1:26:09.559 at me more. You know, people if if if if 1:26:09.600 --> 1:26:12.280 eye contact is made, that is like a failure. So 1:26:12.320 --> 1:26:14.439 you know, if your head's pointed down, your arms are 1:26:14.439 --> 1:26:16.760 more slouched, they kind of move with your body, but 1:26:16.920 --> 1:26:19.240 that's not super exaggerated and it's not super stiff. These 1:26:19.240 --> 1:26:21.240 are different kind of ways of pointing your body to 1:26:21.320 --> 1:26:25.160 make you seem more like UM introspective UM and less external. 1:26:25.200 --> 1:26:28.559 Also walking around with UM ear plugs or like like 1:26:28.560 --> 1:26:32.400 like uh, earbuds, ear phones. Those are ways people will 1:26:32.439 --> 1:26:35.280 pay attention to class to you look at your smartphone. Yeah, 1:26:35.439 --> 1:26:37.559 one of the back when we back when I took 1:26:37.560 --> 1:26:40.200 classes with you and taught classes, we we would we 1:26:40.200 --> 1:26:42.080 would we would have like a weekly a weekly games 1:26:42.120 --> 1:26:45.479 class um where we'd have different you know games and 1:26:45.840 --> 1:26:48.040 related to Parkore and you know, stealth would always kind 1:26:48.040 --> 1:26:50.160 of be something I would try to do. And you 1:26:50.160 --> 1:26:53.840 could survive so long in stealth games by just like 1:26:54.160 --> 1:26:56.320 looking like pretending that you're looking at your phone, like 1:26:56.360 --> 1:26:58.360 not even actually doing it, just like walking in like 1:26:58.360 --> 1:27:01.200 a circle around like walking in a circle around the 1:27:01.240 --> 1:27:02.960 arena as people are trying to like tag and stuff. 1:27:03.280 --> 1:27:04.720 And if you can just like walk with your head 1:27:04.760 --> 1:27:07.720 down kind of slowly, you can strive a ridiculously long 1:27:07.760 --> 1:27:09.840 time because people are looking for people that are like 1:27:09.920 --> 1:27:12.879 running around and being like and being super energy energetic, 1:27:13.200 --> 1:27:16.240 and if you're not, people aren't detecting you as much. 1:27:16.840 --> 1:27:19.840 Another thing to practice would be quiet walking, which is 1:27:19.920 --> 1:27:22.000 we kind of mentioned before. It's like learning how to 1:27:22.120 --> 1:27:25.519 move your foot and interact with different surfaces that makes 1:27:25.560 --> 1:27:28.479 your walking basically silent, which is very fun because you 1:27:28.520 --> 1:27:30.400 can use this to scare your friends. It's it's it's 1:27:30.439 --> 1:27:33.120 it's it's very exciting to to to to to like 1:27:33.200 --> 1:27:35.400 try to try to figure out what's what's ways I 1:27:35.439 --> 1:27:37.599 can hide in my friend's house to like jump scare them, 1:27:37.680 --> 1:27:39.400 or like kind of like how close can I get 1:27:39.439 --> 1:27:42.160 behind someone with with with without them noticing that. There'd 1:27:42.160 --> 1:27:43.920 be times I can just like walk up behind someone 1:27:44.160 --> 1:27:45.960 and wait, like I kid you, not like ten minutes 1:27:45.960 --> 1:27:49.519 before they noticed I was there. It's hilarious. Um. I 1:27:49.520 --> 1:27:51.400 feel even better when I can do that to their 1:27:51.439 --> 1:27:55.519 pets because generally the animals are paying more attention to everything. 1:27:55.560 --> 1:27:57.800 So if you can successfully sneak up on someone's cat, 1:27:58.479 --> 1:28:02.760 you're doing it right. Yeah. Oh man, I do really 1:28:02.800 --> 1:28:05.280 enjoy stealth, and I'll be happy to practice it more 1:28:05.320 --> 1:28:08.439 regularly once the plugue is over. Um, if it's over, 1:28:09.000 --> 1:28:11.559 Um any other kind of stealth notes that you would 1:28:11.560 --> 1:28:13.760 want to kind of bring up for if someone's trying 1:28:13.800 --> 1:28:16.160 to like get into stealth and start to start thinking 1:28:16.200 --> 1:28:19.960 about detection, you know, more often in their everyday life. 1:28:20.400 --> 1:28:26.280 It's very important that you engage in indirect observations. You 1:28:26.560 --> 1:28:29.080 you were talking about how everything points and One of 1:28:29.120 --> 1:28:33.400 the things that we subconsciously noticed the most is people's 1:28:33.479 --> 1:28:38.080 eyes were kind of programmed to notice eyes. So if 1:28:38.080 --> 1:28:42.640 you're looking directly at someone, they're probably gonna notice that 1:28:42.680 --> 1:28:46.160 you've noticed them. But if you're using your peripheral vision, 1:28:46.800 --> 1:28:49.480 or if instead of watching them, you're watching a reflection 1:28:49.560 --> 1:28:53.600 of them, or if you're watching their shadow um, or 1:28:54.040 --> 1:28:57.000 you're not even looking in their direction instead you're tracking 1:28:57.040 --> 1:29:00.800 them by sound, it makes it so that you have 1:29:00.920 --> 1:29:04.880 a big one up on everyone around you. Yeah, in 1:29:04.880 --> 1:29:07.000 indirect observation is one of the best tools that you 1:29:07.040 --> 1:29:10.559 can use, um if you get really clever at it. Now, 1:29:10.600 --> 1:29:13.120 this this, this, this is harder because it actually if 1:29:13.200 --> 1:29:15.800 if you if you if you do this wrong, people, people, 1:29:15.800 --> 1:29:18.200 people will pay more attention to you. But you can 1:29:18.400 --> 1:29:21.439 get good at it to start using like your phone 1:29:21.479 --> 1:29:24.240 camera or even just your phone screen, because like your 1:29:24.280 --> 1:29:28.880 black phone screen is pretty, is pretty, is pretty reflective 1:29:28.880 --> 1:29:32.320 in nature, so you can use this as like a mirror. Um. 1:29:32.400 --> 1:29:35.000 But like, yeah, using like phone cameras and phone screens 1:29:35.040 --> 1:29:37.040 as a reflective surface or or just as like a 1:29:37.040 --> 1:29:40.360 camera can be used in indirect observation. But you do 1:29:40.400 --> 1:29:42.719 have to be careful because if if if it looks 1:29:42.720 --> 1:29:44.880 like you're filming somebody, they're gonna pay so much more 1:29:44.880 --> 1:29:46.400 attention to you. So yeah, you have, you have. You 1:29:46.400 --> 1:29:48.400 have to be very careful with this method, but it 1:29:48.520 --> 1:29:50.559 is possible. This is how I kind of this is 1:29:50.560 --> 1:29:53.719 how I um, this is how it's like documented different 1:29:53.800 --> 1:29:56.760 like um not sees that rallies. If I don't want 1:29:56.760 --> 1:29:58.200 to be like super obvious that that I'm taking a 1:29:58.200 --> 1:30:00.559 picture of them, there's ways of doing indirect observation with 1:30:00.600 --> 1:30:02.640 my phone that I can get pictures of them from 1:30:02.680 --> 1:30:05.200 certain angles to be like, okay, so now now I 1:30:05.240 --> 1:30:07.000 can put you, I can add you to my to 1:30:07.040 --> 1:30:10.960 my folder of Nazis that have showed up. UM that method. 1:30:11.040 --> 1:30:14.320 You have to be super careful if you're surrounded by 1:30:14.479 --> 1:30:19.400 potentially hostile people. Anyone who's behind you is going to 1:30:19.439 --> 1:30:22.519 see that your phone camera is on. So it's something 1:30:22.560 --> 1:30:25.200 that you only want to use if people are on 1:30:25.200 --> 1:30:28.400 one side of you or you know, you keep you 1:30:28.400 --> 1:30:30.639 you you use your body as a shield for certain 1:30:30.960 --> 1:30:36.519 for certain like angles be tricky the hoodie and uh 1:30:36.800 --> 1:30:39.439 increase your odds of success with that. But but but 1:30:39.600 --> 1:30:41.880 most often I would recommend against this method, especially if 1:30:41.920 --> 1:30:43.439 you're just starting out because it is it is a 1:30:43.439 --> 1:30:46.160 lot more risky. UM. But when it does work, I 1:30:46.200 --> 1:30:49.360 can come in very handy. But but more often than not, 1:30:49.439 --> 1:30:52.880 using using like reflections like windows, mirrors, you know, like 1:30:52.920 --> 1:30:57.080 a car, windows, puddles on the ground, shadows, sound, all 1:30:57.120 --> 1:31:00.000 of these different methods of observing someone without looking directly 1:31:00.120 --> 1:31:04.320 at them are generally much much safer UM and they 1:31:04.320 --> 1:31:07.240 can be very useful for for trying to track someone 1:31:07.600 --> 1:31:09.360 or to be aware of what they're looking at without 1:31:09.360 --> 1:31:13.120 looking directly at them UM. Kind of more similar to 1:31:13.200 --> 1:31:16.519 like what I talked about in like the fictional opening 1:31:16.560 --> 1:31:21.040 we did for stealth is very dependent on what you 1:31:21.120 --> 1:31:24.000 know is trying to watch you write, like like how 1:31:24.080 --> 1:31:26.760 you need to be aware of the ways people are 1:31:26.760 --> 1:31:31.280 trying to detect you. Of course this canine units. It's 1:31:31.400 --> 1:31:33.559 very very different than just being being yeah, than being 1:31:33.560 --> 1:31:36.840 like chased down on foot um or you know, like 1:31:37.360 --> 1:31:40.120 security cameras of course, like online tracking, which we're not 1:31:40.160 --> 1:31:42.040 we're not really getting into today, but you know, like 1:31:42.280 --> 1:31:45.960 being aware of where security cameras are mapped out UM 1:31:46.120 --> 1:31:49.040 can be can be very useful learning to learning to 1:31:49.080 --> 1:31:51.200 figure out where they are without looking directly at them 1:31:51.240 --> 1:31:54.400 can be useful. There's a lot of cities have websites 1:31:54.439 --> 1:31:57.120 that like map out where where all the cameras are. Um, 1:31:57.160 --> 1:31:59.559 I know there's one for Portland that you can like 1:31:59.640 --> 1:32:02.160 map out all of the cameras in downtown and then 1:32:02.200 --> 1:32:04.880 you can like plan like a route through downtown that 1:32:04.960 --> 1:32:08.280 has no cameras watching right there. There's only there's only 1:32:08.400 --> 1:32:11.400 very few routes that that actually have that, but but 1:32:11.640 --> 1:32:14.519 they do exist. Um. So learning to move in ways 1:32:14.560 --> 1:32:19.080 that make cameras less able to spot you, um those 1:32:19.160 --> 1:32:22.280 that's definitely another kind of method of learning about stealth 1:32:22.320 --> 1:32:26.479 and learning about like how surveillance works looking directly at 1:32:26.520 --> 1:32:30.120 the camera. But that's that's that's definitely useful, which intention 1:32:30.200 --> 1:32:32.280 to where they are, Yeah, which plays into which plays 1:32:32.280 --> 1:32:36.280 into indirect observation. Um. But I mean this gets more tricky. 1:32:36.360 --> 1:32:39.960 We know when police are using like thermal drones. Uh, 1:32:40.000 --> 1:32:43.120 this is it's whole whole whole other side of things 1:32:43.360 --> 1:32:47.040 that it's very hard to info. Sex side of thing 1:32:47.200 --> 1:32:50.080 is hard to combat and it's yeah, there will be 1:32:50.120 --> 1:32:53.000 a point in time in which it becomes effectively impossible 1:32:53.080 --> 1:32:56.760 to the monitor for cameras. Yeah, there's like there's there's 1:32:56.800 --> 1:32:59.439 like a hierarchy of worry because yeah, if because if, 1:32:59.479 --> 1:33:01.599 like the n s they wants to find you, they will, 1:33:01.920 --> 1:33:04.519 but most often they're not. Like most often people are 1:33:04.520 --> 1:33:07.320 dealing with their local law enforcement unit. Most often people 1:33:07.360 --> 1:33:09.960 are not dealing with the FBI. Most people people usually 1:33:09.960 --> 1:33:12.000 aren't dealing with the FBI, CIA or n s A. 1:33:12.479 --> 1:33:14.920 If if they want to find you, they will. But 1:33:15.400 --> 1:33:17.760 if you can learn to only interact with your surroundings 1:33:17.760 --> 1:33:20.000 in a way that would only concern your local police department, 1:33:20.400 --> 1:33:22.760 that's much easier too. That's much easier to kind of 1:33:22.760 --> 1:33:26.240 combat against, um, because it's it's way easier to hide 1:33:26.400 --> 1:33:29.320 from you know, your local department than it is from 1:33:29.400 --> 1:33:33.920 the n s A. All right, um, anything else? I 1:33:33.960 --> 1:33:36.479 think that pretty much covers everything. Yeah, I think that's 1:33:36.479 --> 1:33:40.120 a good that's a SDE. Great, it's a cast that 1:33:40.160 --> 1:33:43.840 we have potted. Um all right, Um, we got any 1:33:43.880 --> 1:33:46.559 any plugables here to plug at the end before we 1:33:46.680 --> 1:33:51.280 before we roll out me. Yeah, no, you don't find 1:33:51.320 --> 1:33:54.559 me alone. Don't don't find him. This is the most 1:33:54.640 --> 1:33:57.920 visible you've ever been. Yeah, So is there any um, 1:33:58.120 --> 1:34:01.160 I don't know, fundraiser chair for someone else that you 1:34:01.160 --> 1:34:07.000 want to highlight not currently now you are you do 1:34:07.160 --> 1:34:10.280 try to be uh you do try to be a 1:34:10.320 --> 1:34:14.640 virtual ninja? All right, well, all plug something. One of 1:34:14.680 --> 1:34:18.280 our fans is putting together a graphic novel about the 1:34:18.360 --> 1:34:22.240 famed anarchist militant of the Spanish Civil War when even 1:34:22.240 --> 1:34:24.679 showed a Durruty. So if you just go to type 1:34:24.760 --> 1:34:29.439 Druty into Kickstarter, you'll find the graphic novel Kickstarter. UM 1:34:29.560 --> 1:34:32.479 check it out. It's cool. Yeah, and I guess other 1:34:32.479 --> 1:34:35.920 things I'll close with his learned to walk quietly, learn 1:34:35.960 --> 1:34:41.799 to observe, learn to observe your surroundings. Um, keep these practice, practice, 1:34:41.800 --> 1:34:44.320 practice with other people. Don't don't don't do this alone. 1:34:44.520 --> 1:34:46.920 It's really useful to have stealth be a collaborative process 1:34:46.960 --> 1:34:49.960 because stealth isn't stealth isn't just by itself, isn't just 1:34:50.000 --> 1:34:52.920 about you. It's about you and your whole environment. Um, 1:34:52.920 --> 1:34:58.960 collaborate with the CVS clerk when you robbed the CVS stealthily? 1:35:00.600 --> 1:35:02.920 That is That is a different podcast I'm working on. 1:35:03.240 --> 1:35:07.840 Is that how to Shop the Shoplifting Cast? I mean, yeah, 1:35:07.880 --> 1:35:11.320 that is something I will pitch very soon. Anyway, I've 1:35:11.360 --> 1:35:15.200 had trouble getting sponsors for the shoplifting podcast. I will 1:35:15.240 --> 1:35:17.839 tell you that. And it's difficult if you could actually 1:35:17.880 --> 1:35:22.680 get CVS to sponsor that big shoplifting. I mean, we 1:35:22.680 --> 1:35:24.720 are giving them a lot of free advertising. If if 1:35:24.720 --> 1:35:28.280 if it does, if it does happen. Anyway, most people 1:35:28.280 --> 1:35:32.200 who shoplift also spend. That's true. That is one of 1:35:32.240 --> 1:35:34.599 the best ways to shoplift is to buy other things. 1:35:34.640 --> 1:35:38.080 In this story, I'm seeing I'm already giving out advice. Um, yeah, 1:35:38.120 --> 1:35:41.639 that that is how I always shoplifted. Back when I shoplifted, Yeah, 1:35:41.640 --> 1:35:43.840 back when I did that twenty years ago. That's what. 1:35:44.080 --> 1:35:46.000 That's how I did it as well. I feel like 1:35:46.040 --> 1:35:48.799 if Sophie were here, she'd be trying to back pedal 1:35:48.960 --> 1:35:52.640 right now and stop you guys. So if you support shoplifting, 1:35:52.640 --> 1:35:57.480 this is a very pro shoplifting podcast. Anyway, that's the podcast. 1:36:03.040 --> 1:36:06.200 This is Roxande Gay, host of the Roxanne Gay Agenda, 1:36:06.360 --> 1:36:10.360 the bad feminist podcast of your Dreams. Now, what is 1:36:10.439 --> 1:36:13.439 the Roxanne Gay Agenda, you might ask what. It's a 1:36:13.439 --> 1:36:16.639 podcast where I'm going to speak my mind about what's 1:36:16.720 --> 1:36:20.639 on my mind, and that could be anything. Every week 1:36:20.720 --> 1:36:24.320 I will be in conversation with an interesting person who 1:36:24.360 --> 1:36:27.439 has something to say. We're going to talk about feminism, race, 1:36:27.920 --> 1:36:32.440 writing in books, and art, food, pop culture, and yes, politics. 1:36:32.840 --> 1:36:36.519 I started show with a recommendation. Really, I'm just going 1:36:36.560 --> 1:36:39.360 to share with you a movie or a book, or 1:36:39.360 --> 1:36:42.040 maybe some music or a comedy set, something that I 1:36:42.080 --> 1:36:45.120 really want you to be aware of and maybe engage 1:36:45.120 --> 1:36:49.200 with as well. Listen to the Luminary original podcast, The 1:36:49.280 --> 1:36:53.320 Roxanne Gay Agenda, the bad Feminist podcast of your Dreams, 1:36:53.720 --> 1:36:57.440 every Tuesday on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts 1:36:57.600 --> 1:37:03.439 or wherever you get your podcasts. The art world it 1:37:03.560 --> 1:37:07.680 is essentially a money laundering business. The best fakes are 1:37:07.720 --> 1:37:10.400 still hanging on people's walls. You know they don't even 1:37:10.720 --> 1:37:14.320 know or suspect that their faces. I'm Ale Baldwin and 1:37:14.400 --> 1:37:18.960 this is a podcast about deception, greed and forgery in 1:37:19.000 --> 1:37:24.920 the art world. You knew the painting was fake. Um 1:37:25.160 --> 1:37:28.840 Listen to Art Frauds starting February one on the I 1:37:29.000 --> 1:37:33.800 Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 1:37:41.320 --> 1:37:43.639 Give us the over attention. We need. Everything you've got 1:37:43.760 --> 1:37:47.240 fast waiting on reparations would beat the podcast soon. In 1:37:47.320 --> 1:37:50.599 every Thursday Politics and Wordplay, we fight for the people 1:37:50.600 --> 1:37:52.640 because they got us in the worst way, from the 1:37:52.760 --> 1:37:55.880 Hill Cooper, the bomb Bay to Kanya, from the left 1:37:55.920 --> 1:37:59.120 on Clave to what the neo kanza every Thursday cop 1:37:59.160 --> 1:38:01.599 the head compass to break us off with some break 1:38:01.600 --> 1:38:06.599 because listen to Waiting on Reparations on the I Heart 1:38:06.680 --> 1:38:09.920 radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. 1:38:16.400 --> 1:38:18.759 You were out of town when the last cop left Seattle. 1:38:19.320 --> 1:38:22.799 It had been unseasonably cool that week, the seventy degrees 1:38:22.800 --> 1:38:24.680 of Old and not the n you had come to 1:38:24.760 --> 1:38:28.000 dread every summer. But you'd already promised you'd visit your 1:38:28.000 --> 1:38:30.760 family in Montana, and so when the riots started in 1:38:30.760 --> 1:38:33.679 the National Guard open fire into the crowd, you watched 1:38:33.680 --> 1:38:36.720 it on Twitter from your couch like everyone else. The 1:38:36.800 --> 1:38:40.240 Second Battle of Seattle, they were calling it. You wondered 1:38:40.240 --> 1:38:43.080 briefly what the first one was. They've been fighting in 1:38:43.160 --> 1:38:46.640 Portland too, some kind of massacre in Oakland, and no 1:38:46.720 --> 1:38:49.040 one was quite sure what was happening in that Apple Valley. 1:38:49.360 --> 1:38:52.799 Couldn't be anything good, you thought, But it was Seattle. 1:38:52.840 --> 1:38:55.880 Everyone was talking about. The mayor fled the city and 1:38:55.920 --> 1:38:58.479 the helicopter when it became clear the police were losing 1:38:59.320 --> 1:39:03.040 after that the cops had simply broken retreated across the Cascades. 1:39:03.800 --> 1:39:06.000 No one knew who was running the city now, and 1:39:06.040 --> 1:39:07.519 you share as hell didn't want to be the one 1:39:07.560 --> 1:39:11.519 to find out. But after two weeks, you've burned through 1:39:11.520 --> 1:39:14.360 every vacation day in every favor you'd ever accumulated at 1:39:14.360 --> 1:39:19.120 the hospital, And besides, the rent was due. No one 1:39:19.160 --> 1:39:21.360 was sure if the postal service was even still functioning, 1:39:21.560 --> 1:39:24.320 and with the eviction moratorium lifted, you weren't going to 1:39:24.439 --> 1:39:26.519 risk getting evicted because you weren't there to hand your 1:39:26.560 --> 1:39:31.960 landlord a check. So with rarey resignation, you pile into 1:39:31.960 --> 1:39:35.960 your battered car and head towards snow Quality Pass. What 1:39:36.080 --> 1:39:38.240 surprised you most when you hit Seattle was the art 1:39:38.880 --> 1:39:41.600 you've been expecting. Burnt out buildings and streets filled with 1:39:41.640 --> 1:39:44.840 burning cars, and there were some A few streets were 1:39:44.840 --> 1:39:48.439 still blocked by what looked like improvised barricades, but every 1:39:48.479 --> 1:39:50.880 surface of every building, it seemed, had some kind of 1:39:50.960 --> 1:39:54.080 mirror on it. Someone, and no one seemed to be 1:39:54.120 --> 1:39:56.920 quite sure who had first come up with the idea, 1:39:57.439 --> 1:39:59.840 had blocked off an entire street up near Capitol Hill, 1:39:59.880 --> 1:40:04.120 and people were painstakingly painting portraits of every protester killed 1:40:04.120 --> 1:40:07.920 in the fighting and seattle on it. As you walked past, 1:40:08.400 --> 1:40:11.120 they were discussing doing the same for the dead in Oakland. 1:40:11.920 --> 1:40:14.599 The second surprise came when you tried to pay your rent. 1:40:15.360 --> 1:40:17.519 A woman you've never seen before was sitting at the 1:40:17.640 --> 1:40:20.760 office's reception desk. When you tried to handle your check, 1:40:20.840 --> 1:40:23.280 she laughed and handed it back to you, explaining that 1:40:23.320 --> 1:40:25.800 after the cops fled, the local tenants union had taking 1:40:25.800 --> 1:40:27.759 over most of the apartments in the city and placed 1:40:27.760 --> 1:40:31.200 them in something it called a community land Trust. You 1:40:31.240 --> 1:40:33.400 didn't quite get the details, but no one was going 1:40:33.439 --> 1:40:37.040 to evict you, so you decided to just take the win. Besides, 1:40:37.400 --> 1:40:39.639 your friend had convinced you to do some child care 1:40:39.640 --> 1:40:41.679 for the tenants union in college, and they always seemed 1:40:41.680 --> 1:40:43.640 like a decent sword, so it didn't seem to be 1:40:43.720 --> 1:40:48.559 any immediate cause for concern. The hospital was another matter. 1:40:48.720 --> 1:40:51.439 Entirely from what you could gather, there had been some 1:40:51.520 --> 1:40:54.680 kind of labor disputween the chaos. Management seemed to have 1:40:54.720 --> 1:40:57.400 fired a group of nurses for giving injured protesters shelter 1:40:57.520 --> 1:41:01.360 from the police. Your war had already been understaffed due 1:41:01.360 --> 1:41:05.440 to COVID and budget cuts. Now the situation was int tolerable. 1:41:06.320 --> 1:41:09.240 Where still many of the senior administrators had fled the 1:41:09.280 --> 1:41:11.760 city with the police, no one seemed to know who 1:41:11.800 --> 1:41:14.720 was in charge, Supplies were starting to run low, and 1:41:14.800 --> 1:41:18.160 with so many administrators missing in the insurance situation completely 1:41:18.240 --> 1:41:21.080 up in the air. On account of nobody being entirely 1:41:21.080 --> 1:41:23.479 sure if Seattle was even still part of the United States, 1:41:24.160 --> 1:41:26.120 it wasn't clear if anyone was going to get paid. 1:41:27.040 --> 1:41:28.960 So when a co worker pulled you aside and asked 1:41:29.000 --> 1:41:33.520 if you'd be interested in doing something about the management problem, 1:41:33.680 --> 1:41:36.080 you figured, what the hell, Maybe it was time for 1:41:36.120 --> 1:41:39.679 a change. It wasn't like it could possibly make anything worse. 1:41:41.400 --> 1:41:44.080 The fired nurses, it turned out, had started to set 1:41:44.120 --> 1:41:46.439 up a community health center with the help of the 1:41:46.479 --> 1:41:50.200 local neighborhood council. But some of the nurses still working 1:41:50.200 --> 1:41:53.439 at the hospital had another idea. Why not just turn 1:41:53.520 --> 1:41:56.960 the hospital into the community health center. After all, the 1:41:57.040 --> 1:41:59.519 hospital already had more equipment than any new center could 1:41:59.520 --> 1:42:03.280 possibly symbol. All they needed was some help from the community, 1:42:03.640 --> 1:42:05.920 and the whole thing could be run by a council 1:42:05.960 --> 1:42:10.840 of the hospital workers. Insurance companies be damned. Besides, if 1:42:10.880 --> 1:42:13.680 all the hospitals started pulling their resources together, they might 1:42:13.680 --> 1:42:17.519 be able to solve some of the shortages. At the 1:42:17.520 --> 1:42:20.639 mention of solving the supply shortages, even the more skeptical 1:42:20.680 --> 1:42:23.800 workers started to come around. By the next morning, the 1:42:23.800 --> 1:42:28.280 Seattle Hospital Workers Council was marching on the hospital. The 1:42:28.320 --> 1:42:32.040 remaining management found out somehow and tried one final lockout 1:42:32.040 --> 1:42:34.920 to hold onto their property. But as you saw yet 1:42:34.960 --> 1:42:38.120 another column of protesters joining the crowd surrounding the hospital, 1:42:38.240 --> 1:42:46.639 you knew this wasn't their city any longer. On April eighteen, 1:42:46.920 --> 1:42:50.280 two thousand, one, military police in the Cabiliar region of 1:42:50.320 --> 1:42:55.040 Algeria shot an eighteen year old high school students. Almost immediately, 1:42:55.240 --> 1:42:58.160 hundreds of thousands of people took to the street, chanting, 1:42:58.360 --> 1:43:00.640 you can't kill us, we are already dead at the 1:43:00.680 --> 1:43:03.880 lines of policemen assembled to attack them. The police would 1:43:03.920 --> 1:43:06.679 kill over a hundred people and severely wound five thousand 1:43:06.720 --> 1:43:08.720 more in the months long battle for control of the 1:43:08.760 --> 1:43:14.400 streets that followed, but protesters burned police stations, government offices, courts, 1:43:14.720 --> 1:43:17.759 and the offices of Islamic fundamentalist parties until the government 1:43:17.760 --> 1:43:21.000 agreed to give ethnic minority groups language and cultural rights. 1:43:21.840 --> 1:43:24.759 The hated military police were driven from the region entirely, 1:43:25.439 --> 1:43:28.639 and so few regular police stations survived the uprising. At 1:43:28.640 --> 1:43:31.839 the regular police likewise ceased to function across broad swaths 1:43:31.880 --> 1:43:35.240 of Kabilia. They were replaced on a local village level 1:43:35.320 --> 1:43:38.800 by self organized security committees, which would assemble on the 1:43:38.880 --> 1:43:43.400 rare occasion trouble emerged. Contrary to the expectations of the state, 1:43:43.720 --> 1:43:48.880 crime plummeted, but the Algerian government otherwise continued to function 1:43:48.880 --> 1:43:52.000 as usual for over a decade until the local government 1:43:52.040 --> 1:43:55.280 in a small region, cover Bacha, attempted the regular local elections. 1:43:57.080 --> 1:43:59.719 After banning the most popular political party in the region, 1:44:00.040 --> 1:44:05.160 they installed an unpopular coalition governments. The people of Barbaca 1:44:05.240 --> 1:44:08.080 responded by storming the city hall, seizing control of it 1:44:08.280 --> 1:44:11.120 and setting up a democratic General Assembly inside the newly 1:44:11.200 --> 1:44:14.439 dubbed House of the People to replace the existing government. 1:44:15.560 --> 1:44:18.559 This was dual power in its original sense, a council 1:44:18.640 --> 1:44:22.800 of the people facing off against an increasingly illegitimate parliamentary 1:44:22.800 --> 1:44:25.880 representative in a struggle for control over the fate of 1:44:25.880 --> 1:44:29.680 a new society. If you google dual power, you are 1:44:29.720 --> 1:44:33.120 likely to encounter. A pamphlet written by Vladimir Lenin entitled 1:44:33.160 --> 1:44:36.960 The Dual Power, describing the conundrum of the situation following 1:44:37.000 --> 1:44:41.240 the First Russian Revolution in February of nineteen seventeen. After 1:44:41.280 --> 1:44:44.559 the overthrow of the Czar, political power was split between 1:44:44.560 --> 1:44:48.560 two competing bodies. On the one side, a new provisional 1:44:48.600 --> 1:44:52.680 government of liberal and social democratic politicians holdovers from the 1:44:52.720 --> 1:44:55.880 old Duma from the previous regime. On the other side, 1:44:56.080 --> 1:45:01.640 revolutionary social forces rallying around assemblies popular power called soviets, 1:45:01.840 --> 1:45:05.040 which were councils of delegates sent by directly democratic factories, 1:45:05.080 --> 1:45:08.840 soldiers and sailors committees. Lenin solve this as a situation 1:45:08.920 --> 1:45:11.800 to be overcome by the seizure of state power by 1:45:11.880 --> 1:45:15.880 Socialist Party. For Lenin and his Bolsheviks, dual power was 1:45:15.920 --> 1:45:18.360 a problem because, after the Czarist state ceased to exist 1:45:18.360 --> 1:45:21.120 in the middle of the World War, the new provisional 1:45:21.160 --> 1:45:24.040 government failed to fill the vacuum left in its wake 1:45:24.080 --> 1:45:28.240 by its collapse. To Lenin, the solution was obvious fill 1:45:28.320 --> 1:45:32.160 that vacuum with Lenin. For the peasants, soldiers, and workers 1:45:32.160 --> 1:45:35.800 who made up the majority of Russia's population, However, dual 1:45:35.880 --> 1:45:39.080 power was their first fleeting taste of freedom and autonomous 1:45:39.080 --> 1:45:43.400 control over their lives. Lenon used the Soviets to seize power, 1:45:43.800 --> 1:45:46.760 but almost immediately began to turn on these democratic assemblies 1:45:46.760 --> 1:45:50.400 of popular autonomy. Over the course of the Russian Civil War, 1:45:51.000 --> 1:45:54.160 Lennon and the Bolsheviks strip power away from the workers, peasants, 1:45:54.200 --> 1:45:58.320 and soldiers, sometimes by bureaucratic fiat, often at the point 1:45:58.360 --> 1:46:01.040 of a bayonet. Until this Oviet have been stripped of 1:46:01.080 --> 1:46:04.280 all meeting in the very state named after their democratic 1:46:04.320 --> 1:46:08.639 form and became synonymous with dictatorship. Dual power today draws 1:46:08.640 --> 1:46:12.000 from the potential of that post revolutionary crisis from the 1:46:12.000 --> 1:46:14.559 bottom up, direct democracy that was so threatening to the 1:46:14.600 --> 1:46:18.519 social order that Bolshevik revolutionaries and Czari's police by his alike, 1:46:18.600 --> 1:46:22.160 conspired to wipe them from the historical record. Just as 1:46:22.240 --> 1:46:24.599 Russia was haunted by the memory of the French communes, 1:46:25.160 --> 1:46:27.759 so is America today haunted by a memory of dual 1:46:27.800 --> 1:46:31.240 power that, against all lodge refuses to die. We are, 1:46:31.400 --> 1:46:34.439 after all, still ruled by a greedy, bloodthirsty, and out 1:46:34.439 --> 1:46:36.200 of touch elite who have chosen to march us to 1:46:36.240 --> 1:46:38.479 our deaths by the hundreds of thousands by forcing us 1:46:38.479 --> 1:46:42.120 back to work during a plague. But the Russian Revolution 1:46:42.200 --> 1:46:44.840 is as far away from us today as Napoleon and 1:46:44.880 --> 1:46:47.760 his brass cannons were from the Russian revolutionaries and their 1:46:47.800 --> 1:46:52.040 machine guns. Times have changed. There is no Bolshevik party 1:46:52.080 --> 1:46:55.080 waiting in the wings to seize power as the state crumbles. 1:46:55.360 --> 1:46:57.400 The vacuum of the state leaves in its wake as 1:46:57.439 --> 1:47:00.760 its power deteriorates, be filled by any number of organizations, 1:47:01.080 --> 1:47:03.160 most even more hostile to the working class and the 1:47:03.200 --> 1:47:06.160 Bolsheviks had been. It could be war lords with the 1:47:06.160 --> 1:47:09.080 personal allegiance of the remains of the military. It could 1:47:09.120 --> 1:47:13.360 be organized crime. It could be religious fundamentalist militias. Most likely, 1:47:13.360 --> 1:47:15.679 it will be an uneasy combination of all of the above. 1:47:17.000 --> 1:47:21.120 Or it could be you. It could be your family, 1:47:21.400 --> 1:47:25.000 your friends, your neighbors, your co workers, the person you 1:47:25.000 --> 1:47:26.920 waved to every morning at the bus stop when you're 1:47:26.960 --> 1:47:29.759 on your way to work. The past to that world, 1:47:30.280 --> 1:47:33.120 the world run not by capitalists in their cops or 1:47:33.160 --> 1:47:36.400 by war lords in their armies, but by autonomous communities 1:47:36.439 --> 1:47:39.439 free to decide for themselves what to produce and how 1:47:39.439 --> 1:47:41.679 to best use their resources. To care for each other 1:47:42.280 --> 1:47:45.880 is dual power in the twenty one century. At its core, 1:47:46.200 --> 1:47:49.040 dual power is about creating a counterpower against the state. 1:47:49.880 --> 1:47:53.320 During the Russian Revolution, this counterpower was formed essentially by 1:47:53.360 --> 1:47:57.200 historical accidents, as two governing bodies emerged from the course 1:47:57.200 --> 1:48:01.120 of the Febrrian Revolution. But modern dual power does not 1:48:01.200 --> 1:48:03.840 arise from the whims of the course of revolution or 1:48:03.880 --> 1:48:06.519 from an innate instinct of the working class. It is 1:48:06.560 --> 1:48:09.800 something we build together by creating organizations that resist the 1:48:09.840 --> 1:48:14.479 power of the structures of violence. Capitalism, racism, homophobia, and 1:48:14.520 --> 1:48:18.800 the state name a few that control this world. Dual 1:48:18.840 --> 1:48:22.600 power organizations can take many forms, from tennis unions, the 1:48:22.680 --> 1:48:28.040 debtors councils, childcare cooperatives, to land occupations, workers councils, to 1:48:28.160 --> 1:48:31.639 rank and file labor unions, mutual aid networks to community 1:48:31.640 --> 1:48:37.200 self defense organizations. These organizations seek to build autonomy from 1:48:37.240 --> 1:48:40.599 and against capitalism. In the state alone, there are no 1:48:40.640 --> 1:48:42.960 match for the state's we all power to inflict violence 1:48:42.960 --> 1:48:46.799 and corporate control over our resources. But by joining together 1:48:46.840 --> 1:48:49.920 to form federations and pooling their resources and expertise to 1:48:49.960 --> 1:48:53.439 coordinate their efforts, they can become a powerful enough force 1:48:53.520 --> 1:48:57.599 to challenge the state, both directly and indirectly. These dual 1:48:57.600 --> 1:49:00.639 power organizations are designed to be the day its successor. 1:49:01.400 --> 1:49:03.880 As the industrial workers of the world famously put it, 1:49:04.120 --> 1:49:06.360 they form the structure of the new society and the 1:49:06.360 --> 1:49:09.559 shell of the old. In order to fulfill that task, 1:49:09.640 --> 1:49:12.000 they take the shape of new society they need to create. 1:49:12.200 --> 1:49:16.879 Academics called this prefigurative politics, organizing that employs the values 1:49:16.920 --> 1:49:19.920 and organizational structures that they seek to create in the world. 1:49:20.720 --> 1:49:23.120 As we will discuss in the next episode, there are 1:49:23.200 --> 1:49:26.120 right wing forms of both dual power and profigative politics, 1:49:27.600 --> 1:49:30.560 but for most of the people who employ it, prefigurative 1:49:30.600 --> 1:49:36.280 politics means creating direct democratic institutions without bosses, managers, bureaucrats, 1:49:36.439 --> 1:49:40.599 or party apparatus. The means of creating the new world 1:49:40.800 --> 1:49:45.760 are thus the same as the ends. Dual power organizations 1:49:45.760 --> 1:49:49.439 serve multiple purposes. Their long term goal is to replace 1:49:49.479 --> 1:49:52.280 the state and the corporation with free and autonomous forms 1:49:52.280 --> 1:49:56.680 of organization. One's organized and powerful enough to protect themselves 1:49:56.680 --> 1:49:59.920 and manage the logistical challenges of a new world when 1:50:00.040 --> 1:50:04.479 previous forms of organization and power no longer exist. But 1:50:04.560 --> 1:50:08.360 even reaching a point where this is remotely plausible, requires 1:50:08.400 --> 1:50:12.479 not just the painstaking construction of counterpower and organization out 1:50:12.479 --> 1:50:16.639 of a fragmented American population, It requires a profound cultural 1:50:16.640 --> 1:50:20.679 transformation and how we make decisions. As the anthropologist David 1:50:20.720 --> 1:50:24.000 Graeber put it, it is assumed in many parts of 1:50:24.000 --> 1:50:26.439 the world that democracy is a group of people facing 1:50:26.439 --> 1:50:29.040 a certain problem who come together to solve it in 1:50:29.040 --> 1:50:31.840 a way where everyone has an equals say. It's true 1:50:31.880 --> 1:50:34.160 that most Americans think of themselves as living in a 1:50:34.200 --> 1:50:37.760 democratic country. When was the last time that any Americans 1:50:37.800 --> 1:50:40.880 actually sat down and came to a collective decision? Maybe 1:50:40.960 --> 1:50:45.519 if they were ordering pizza, but basically never Dual power 1:50:45.640 --> 1:50:49.439 organizations thus also service schools for democracy where people can learn, 1:50:49.640 --> 1:50:53.360 experiment with, create, and spread their own forms of democracy 1:50:53.400 --> 1:50:58.200 and collective decision making. When these spaces of democratic experimentation 1:50:58.240 --> 1:51:01.880 are functioning properly, the very organizational structure serves as a 1:51:01.960 --> 1:51:04.960 kind of recruitment tool. This was the original theory behind 1:51:05.000 --> 1:51:08.680 Occupy Wall Street, that democracy and the experience of autonomy 1:51:08.720 --> 1:51:11.479 were contagious and would spread rapidly as more and more 1:51:11.520 --> 1:51:15.679 curious people experienced it for themselves. That experience, in turn 1:51:15.720 --> 1:51:18.440 would create a new generation of people trained in democratic 1:51:18.439 --> 1:51:22.760 practices who could go forth and transform the world. Obviously, 1:51:22.800 --> 1:51:26.400 this didn't quite happen. Occupies model of democracy was limited 1:51:26.400 --> 1:51:28.640 in many ways, not the least of which was that 1:51:28.680 --> 1:51:31.280 it required a public, physical meeting space that could be 1:51:31.320 --> 1:51:34.840 closed down by police violence. But the initial premise worked. 1:51:35.680 --> 1:51:38.200 Occupy itself, of course, had been inspired by the mass 1:51:38.240 --> 1:51:41.559 democratic assemblies in Spain, in Greece in two thousand eleven, 1:51:42.400 --> 1:51:45.879 and the direct democratic coops and factory occupations that engulfed 1:51:45.960 --> 1:51:49.200 Argentina for the better part of the two thousand's. At 1:51:49.200 --> 1:51:53.160 the most basic, short term level, however, dual power organizations 1:51:53.160 --> 1:51:56.680 are designed to meet people's needs. The cornerstone of this 1:51:56.680 --> 1:52:00.160 effortis mutual aid. Probably the most famous example of such 1:52:00.200 --> 1:52:03.759 a project was the Black Panther Party survival programs. Former 1:52:03.760 --> 1:52:07.599 Black Panther Janina Irvin describes them in detail. The Black 1:52:07.640 --> 1:52:10.680 Panther Party survival programs were, in fact an example of 1:52:10.720 --> 1:52:13.519 an effort, a successful effort, while it lasted to create 1:52:13.600 --> 1:52:16.639 dual power in the United States. The Black Panther Party 1:52:16.720 --> 1:52:19.840 had a school, had free food programs. One of its 1:52:19.880 --> 1:52:23.679 most respected survival programs was a breakfast for children, which 1:52:23.720 --> 1:52:26.479 was overall a response to hunger and poverty in the country, 1:52:26.560 --> 1:52:31.320 particularly among poor, low income Black people. We had free 1:52:31.320 --> 1:52:35.200 medical clinics in Winston Salem, North Carolina. We had free ambulances, 1:52:35.240 --> 1:52:37.800 free past control, free shoes, We had free bussing to 1:52:37.920 --> 1:52:41.639 prison programs, legal aid programs to help people get attorneys 1:52:41.640 --> 1:52:43.800 who needed them. And we had a program that was 1:52:43.840 --> 1:52:47.360 called the Safe Program Seniors Against a Fearful Environment, in 1:52:47.360 --> 1:52:50.639 which we provided free transportation and escort service the senior 1:52:50.640 --> 1:52:52.920 citizens who needed to get out and take care of 1:52:52.960 --> 1:52:55.920 their errands, their business. They were often being attacked, so 1:52:55.960 --> 1:52:59.160 this was a hore protection for them. The Panthers were 1:52:59.200 --> 1:53:03.480 able to grow their in fluence by keeping their communities safe, healthy, 1:53:03.520 --> 1:53:07.560 cared for, and increasingly autonomous from the state. But most importantly, 1:53:07.880 --> 1:53:11.400 they were able to keep people alive. As Black Panthers 1:53:11.439 --> 1:53:15.479 co founder Hue P. Newton famously said, these survival programs 1:53:15.479 --> 1:53:17.840 satisfy the deep needs of the community, but they are 1:53:17.880 --> 1:53:20.519 not solutions to our problem. That is why we call 1:53:20.560 --> 1:53:26.280 them survival programs, meeting survival pending revolution. The existence of 1:53:26.320 --> 1:53:30.639 the survival programs themselves reflect the necessity of keeping people alive, 1:53:31.439 --> 1:53:33.599 especially people who the state would rather kill or leave 1:53:33.680 --> 1:53:37.120 to die for building any kind of power. But these 1:53:37.120 --> 1:53:41.600 programs are also necessarily insufficient. No mutual aid program, no 1:53:41.720 --> 1:53:46.560 autonomous project, no liberated territory can provide for the entire community, 1:53:46.560 --> 1:53:51.160 while the corporations, capitalists, and states maintain their strangle hold 1:53:51.200 --> 1:53:54.639 over the resources and production capacity at the working class 1:53:54.680 --> 1:54:00.240 collectively created over centuries of grueling labor and struggle. Dual power, 1:54:01.240 --> 1:54:04.360 more than just survival, is about building the counter power 1:54:04.439 --> 1:54:09.400 to take it back. Building powers withdraws the line between 1:54:09.439 --> 1:54:12.680 what is and isn't dual power. Growing food for you 1:54:12.720 --> 1:54:14.680 and your friends, make cut down on bills, and make 1:54:14.720 --> 1:54:19.960 some killer pesto, but it's not necessarily challenging the capitalist system. 1:54:20.160 --> 1:54:23.400 Autonomy for its own sake is not necessarily dual power 1:54:24.479 --> 1:54:28.240 if it doesn't actively aid in struggle or better organize 1:54:28.280 --> 1:54:31.400 the community. That from the perspective of building counter power, 1:54:31.760 --> 1:54:35.960 that autonomy is meaningless. Making food for striking workers to 1:54:36.000 --> 1:54:39.280 allow them to stay on strike longer is building dual power. 1:54:40.880 --> 1:54:43.960 We're simply producing it for general consumption is not. While 1:54:44.000 --> 1:54:47.960 dual power organizations necessarily serve the needs of the community, 1:54:48.120 --> 1:54:50.360 they must also be able to pivot and attack the 1:54:50.400 --> 1:54:53.640 state in capital and provide solidarity and mutual aid to 1:54:53.680 --> 1:54:56.720 those in the community who are already in struggle, or 1:54:57.040 --> 1:55:01.240 they simply aren't dual power organizations at all. The simplest 1:55:01.240 --> 1:55:03.680 solution to this problem, of course, is to organize around 1:55:03.720 --> 1:55:07.000 a specific side of resistance. Organizations that build up the 1:55:07.040 --> 1:55:10.920 capacity to fight can emerge from almost anywhere. The Symbiosis 1:55:10.920 --> 1:55:14.800 Research Collective described how dual power organizations emerge from Palestinian 1:55:14.840 --> 1:55:17.920 prison organizing bring the First into Fata and uprising against 1:55:17.920 --> 1:55:22.200 the Israeli governments in late nineteen eighties. Most discussion of 1:55:22.240 --> 1:55:24.600 the First into Fata focuses on the role of mass 1:55:24.640 --> 1:55:30.000 protests in making Palestinian society ungovernable for the Israeli occupying forces. 1:55:30.480 --> 1:55:33.640 Less discussed is the role of community organizations of mutual 1:55:33.680 --> 1:55:38.000 aid and confederated participatory democracy and making such mass protests possible. 1:55:39.080 --> 1:55:42.520 Organizing from within the political system was a political incubator 1:55:43.320 --> 1:55:47.000 of the Palestinian resistance movement and offers a microcosmic example 1:55:47.040 --> 1:55:49.960 of the developments of dual power in the much larger 1:55:50.000 --> 1:55:54.560 prison of the occupation. With hunger strikes, political prisoners eventually 1:55:54.560 --> 1:55:57.680 won concessions for their own self administration within the prisons, 1:55:58.360 --> 1:56:02.840 they assembled structures of political organization and representation, forced prison 1:56:02.880 --> 1:56:06.840 authorities to recognize their representatives, and developed a division of 1:56:06.920 --> 1:56:11.960 labor around hygiene, education and other daily tasks. Palestinian prisoners 1:56:12.080 --> 1:56:16.040 described this arrangement as internal organization, similar to the concept 1:56:16.040 --> 1:56:19.840 of dual power. Even the least free of circumstances, these 1:56:19.880 --> 1:56:23.000 prisoners carved out space for self governments and created the 1:56:23.000 --> 1:56:27.560 preconditions to revolutionary struggle. Prisoners taught and studied everything from 1:56:27.560 --> 1:56:31.760 Palestinian history to marks the political economy, often from eight 1:56:31.800 --> 1:56:35.400 to fourteen hours per day. As freshly educated and trained 1:56:35.400 --> 1:56:39.400 political activists were released back into society, the resistance movement 1:56:39.440 --> 1:56:43.520 was galvanized. Illiterate teenage boys arrested for throwing stones re 1:56:43.680 --> 1:56:47.040 entered the fray months later as committed competent organizers who 1:56:47.080 --> 1:56:52.560 had studied movement building, strategic resistance, and dialectical materialism. Meanwhile, 1:56:52.760 --> 1:56:57.120 the organizing context outside of the prison transformed dramatically. Saleh 1:56:57.120 --> 1:57:02.680 Abou laban of Palestinian political prisoners from nineteen seventy until nine, stated, 1:57:03.200 --> 1:57:05.720 when I entered the prison, there wasn't a national movement. 1:57:06.880 --> 1:57:10.360 There were only underground cells that performed clandestine lee. When 1:57:10.360 --> 1:57:13.280 I got out, I found a world full of organizers, committees, 1:57:13.280 --> 1:57:17.200 and community institutions. Central to this new world of community 1:57:17.320 --> 1:57:21.080 organizing was the Palestinian labor movement. Unions re formed out 1:57:21.080 --> 1:57:24.320 of workers places of residents rather than workplaces because vigrant 1:57:24.360 --> 1:57:28.000 labor was prevalent in Palestinian Unionism within Israel had been criminalized. 1:57:29.080 --> 1:57:32.120 Unions then formed strong alliances with local organizations in the 1:57:32.200 --> 1:57:36.480 national movement with rapid growth in the early nineteen eighties. 1:57:37.440 --> 1:57:40.640 Labor unions found it necessary to centralize and democratize their 1:57:40.680 --> 1:57:44.600 structures to become more resilient as Israeli repression intensified against 1:57:44.680 --> 1:57:48.600 union leaders and organizers. These local unions were networked together 1:57:48.640 --> 1:57:51.880 through the Palestinian Communist Party and the Workers Unity Block, 1:57:52.240 --> 1:57:55.120 creating a web of labor organizers and community groups that 1:57:55.200 --> 1:57:58.400 linked their class struggle to the larger projects of national liberation. 1:57:59.440 --> 1:58:02.960 This wave of resistance, carried out largely outside the purview 1:58:03.000 --> 1:58:06.680 of the major Palestinian political parties, showed that even communities 1:58:06.680 --> 1:58:10.320 and the most dire circumstances can assemble astounding levels of 1:58:10.400 --> 1:58:13.720 organization and resistance. As was also true in the United States, 1:58:13.800 --> 1:58:17.280 although today the memory of these prison radicals is largely forgotten. 1:58:17.560 --> 1:58:21.160 Palestinian organizing emerged from the sites of deepest depression in 1:58:21.200 --> 1:58:24.920 their society. But this kind and level of organization is 1:58:24.960 --> 1:58:27.760 not just the property of the left, and in Part 1:58:27.800 --> 1:58:30.120 two we'll see what happens when the right gets hold 1:58:30.120 --> 1:58:40.440 of it. From Cavalry Audio comes the new true crime podcast, 1:58:40.800 --> 1:58:44.280 The Shadow Girls. I always wanted to know what it 1:58:44.360 --> 1:58:48.160 felt like kill somebody and started laughing. Prosecutors described him 1:58:48.200 --> 1:58:51.640 as a serial killer, savant kicking up these girls, getting 1:58:51.680 --> 1:58:54.600 him in a position of vulnerability. When he got hold 1:58:54.640 --> 1:58:57.800 of their neck, that was it. I'm Carolinasia, a journalist 1:58:57.880 --> 1:59:00.960 and lifelong resident at the Pacific north West. I grew 1:59:01.040 --> 1:59:03.640 up near the banks of the Green River and in 1:59:03.680 --> 1:59:07.800 the shadow of the killer that bears its name. The 1:59:07.840 --> 1:59:12.320 camera time just one. He started fantasizing about having sex 1:59:12.360 --> 1:59:15.720 with his mother, and he fantasized about killing her. But 1:59:15.880 --> 1:59:19.600 this podcast isn't only about tracking down the killer. It's 1:59:19.640 --> 1:59:23.000 about the victims. We stayed in the woods. He always 1:59:23.000 --> 1:59:26.839 liked to go into woods, all the kind of strange 1:59:27.320 --> 1:59:29.840 you know how it feels about prostitutes. Listen to The 1:59:29.840 --> 1:59:32.880 Shadow Girls on the I Heart Radio app, on Apple 1:59:32.960 --> 1:59:38.920 podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Robert 1:59:39.000 --> 1:59:42.160 sex Reese, host of The Doctor Sex Reese Show. And 1:59:42.240 --> 1:59:45.400 every episode I listened to people talk about their sex 1:59:45.440 --> 1:59:49.200 and intimacy issues, and yes, I despise every minute of it. 1:59:49.600 --> 1:59:53.280 And she she made mistakes too? Did she kill everyone 1:59:53.280 --> 1:59:56.160 at her wedding? But hell is real. We're all trapped 1:59:56.160 --> 1:59:58.880 here and there's nothing any of us can do about it. 1:59:59.160 --> 2:00:02.040 So join me, won't you? Listen to The Doctor's Sex 2:00:02.120 --> 2:00:04.760 ray Show every Tuesday on the I Heart Radio app, 2:00:04.800 --> 2:00:08.600 Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, I'm 2:00:08.680 --> 2:00:11.320 Robert Laud and I'm Joe McCormick. And where the hosts 2:00:11.360 --> 2:00:14.160 of the science podcast Stuff to Blow Your Mind, where 2:00:14.160 --> 2:00:16.400 every week we get to explore some of the weirdest 2:00:16.480 --> 2:00:20.760 questions in the universe, like if sci fi teleportation was possible, 2:00:20.840 --> 2:00:23.680 how would it square with the multitudes of organisms that 2:00:23.760 --> 2:00:26.960 inhabit our human bodies? Can we find evidence of emotions 2:00:27.000 --> 2:00:30.680 in animals like bees, ants, and crayfish? How would it 2:00:30.800 --> 2:00:35.600 interplanetary civilization function? Just free will exist? Stuff to Blow 2:00:35.640 --> 2:00:41.280 Your Mind examines neurological quandaries, cosmic mysteries, evolutionary marvels, and 2:00:41.320 --> 2:00:44.240 the wonders of techno history. Basically, this show is the 2:00:44.280 --> 2:00:47.960 altar where we worship the weirdness of reality. If anybody 2:00:47.960 --> 2:00:51.280 ever told you you ask the weirdest questions, it is 2:00:51.320 --> 2:00:53.760 time to come join us in the place where you belong. 2:00:54.120 --> 2:00:57.440 The Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast New episodes publish 2:00:57.480 --> 2:01:01.360 every Tuesday and Thursday, with bonus episode on Saturdays. Listen 2:01:01.360 --> 2:01:03.000 to Stuff to Blow Your Mind on the I Heart 2:01:03.040 --> 2:01:06.560 Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 2:01:12.320 --> 2:01:14.360 It's been three months since you and your co workers 2:01:14.400 --> 2:01:17.680 took control of the hospital. Things aren't back to normal yet. 2:01:18.440 --> 2:01:21.360 You're not even really sure what normal is anymore, but 2:01:21.440 --> 2:01:24.680 the days have fallen into a kind of routine. It's Thursday, 2:01:24.720 --> 2:01:26.600 which means it's your turn to go report back to 2:01:26.680 --> 2:01:29.200 what a friend jokingly referred to as the Endless Meeting 2:01:29.240 --> 2:01:32.040 Assembly was now forever known as the e m A. 2:01:32.480 --> 2:01:34.720 The e m A is technically the closest thing left 2:01:34.760 --> 2:01:37.280 to a central government in Seattle. It was formed as 2:01:37.280 --> 2:01:40.600 a sort of coordinating council between the various organizations and 2:01:40.600 --> 2:01:44.400 workers councils that had emerged or simply emerged from the woodworks. 2:01:44.640 --> 2:01:47.160 In the wake of the collapse of the police. Two 2:01:47.200 --> 2:01:51.240 things have become clear very quickly. One there was need 2:01:51.240 --> 2:01:53.960 for some kind of coordinating committee between the different bodies 2:01:54.320 --> 2:01:57.000 to The only people who had any idea what was 2:01:57.040 --> 2:01:59.040 going on in their portion of the city or in 2:01:59.080 --> 2:02:02.280 their workplace were the members of the local council, which 2:02:02.320 --> 2:02:04.120 meant there was no way in hell any kind of 2:02:04.160 --> 2:02:06.800 central apparatus could dictate to them what actually needed to 2:02:06.840 --> 2:02:09.080 be done. There just wasn't a way to move the 2:02:09.120 --> 2:02:13.240 information around. The solution had been decentralization. Let the councils 2:02:13.280 --> 2:02:15.560 do their work, let them work out who they needed 2:02:15.600 --> 2:02:17.760 to talk to, but make sure there was some kind 2:02:17.800 --> 2:02:20.000 of daily council that people could show up to. Were 2:02:20.040 --> 2:02:22.160 the various groups who do report backs and what they 2:02:22.160 --> 2:02:24.760 were doing and what they needed. The structure was messy, 2:02:25.000 --> 2:02:27.720 but it mostly worked, and at least someone had had 2:02:27.760 --> 2:02:29.960 the idea to make sure if the delegate to the 2:02:29.960 --> 2:02:33.520 e m A rotated so one person wasn't stuck spending 2:02:33.560 --> 2:02:37.400 after life showing up every day. The problem really was 2:02:37.440 --> 2:02:39.960 the same problem you've been dealing with for months now. 2:02:40.680 --> 2:02:43.760 Even with the pooling of resources and people donating their 2:02:43.840 --> 2:02:47.840 last precious American dollars to paying people to import more supplies. 2:02:48.160 --> 2:02:51.160 The blockade was taking its toll. Nobody wanted to try 2:02:51.200 --> 2:02:53.960 to force their way through the blockades and the cascades. 2:02:54.480 --> 2:02:56.320 There's been some attempts to get in touch with groups 2:02:56.320 --> 2:02:59.320 in Portland's but the control map was so ugly there 2:02:59.360 --> 2:03:02.920 was no real ants of getting any assistance. Besides, the 2:03:02.960 --> 2:03:06.800 real problem was the port. When the cops had fled, 2:03:06.840 --> 2:03:10.240 the ships should simply stopped coming. They'd be routed further south, 2:03:10.800 --> 2:03:13.760 many of them to Oakland, or so you'd heard. The 2:03:13.800 --> 2:03:16.560 logistics lines were collapsing faster than anyone could piece them 2:03:16.600 --> 2:03:19.680 back together. What the long term consequences would be no 2:03:19.720 --> 2:03:22.560 one knew, but something was going to have to change. 2:03:22.760 --> 2:03:25.120 The calls to start engaging in piracy were only half 2:03:25.120 --> 2:03:29.720 oaks now. A week later, an answer of sorts arrived. 2:03:30.400 --> 2:03:33.560 It wasn't precisely what anyone had been expecting. You'd heard 2:03:33.600 --> 2:03:38.560 about negotiations between workers councils, shipping companies, and a couple 2:03:38.600 --> 2:03:41.760 of governments to try to prevent a bloodbath. The docks 2:03:42.000 --> 2:03:44.600 with the porter to Seattle already at a commission. No 2:03:44.640 --> 2:03:47.640 one could afford another stoppage. You hadn't really been sure 2:03:47.680 --> 2:03:50.280 what to make of it, but the representatives were here now. 2:03:51.000 --> 2:03:53.680 What they proposed in front of the largest assembly you'd 2:03:53.720 --> 2:03:56.280 ever seen was a kind of under the table deal. 2:03:56.800 --> 2:03:59.200 In essence, the port workers would go back to work 2:03:59.240 --> 2:04:02.320 in both Oakland at Seattle in exchange for seeding part 2:04:02.320 --> 2:04:05.360 of Oakland itself to a newly formed federation. No one 2:04:05.480 --> 2:04:07.720 was sure how any of this was actually supposed to work, 2:04:07.920 --> 2:04:09.760 but it was the first chance you'd seen in months 2:04:09.760 --> 2:04:12.840 to start solving the supply problem. That didn't mean everyone 2:04:12.880 --> 2:04:16.640 else would agree to it. Democracy is still democracy, after all, 2:04:17.040 --> 2:04:21.000 But maybe, just maybe, with a toe hold in Oakland's, 2:04:21.160 --> 2:04:23.760 the Council's would start to spread, and that so called 2:04:23.800 --> 2:04:28.200 government in California was looking shakier every day. Who knew, 2:04:28.880 --> 2:04:37.040 maybe next time you wouldn't be negotiating at all. In 2:04:37.080 --> 2:04:40.360 March of two thousand four, American occupation forces in a 2:04:40.480 --> 2:04:43.320 Rock attempted to shut down the newspaper of a Shiite 2:04:43.360 --> 2:04:47.400 cleric named mata El Solder. The Americans had expected Solder 2:04:47.480 --> 2:04:51.600 to simply fold under the weight of the coalition's pressure. Instead, 2:04:51.920 --> 2:04:55.040 they triggered mass protest that quickly turned into an armed uprising. 2:04:55.400 --> 2:04:59.120 This was a new force in Iraq. The American occupation force, 2:04:59.440 --> 2:05:02.640 whopenakes affecting to be fighting al Qaeda, and maybe the 2:05:02.680 --> 2:05:06.200 rump of the remaining Baptists were stunned to suddenly be 2:05:06.280 --> 2:05:09.800 facing a working class uprising among a Rock she At population. 2:05:10.280 --> 2:05:13.880 This new body Army, as it began to call itself, 2:05:14.600 --> 2:05:17.600 was extremely well organized and were initially able to route 2:05:17.640 --> 2:05:20.520 coalition forces. So what was this body army that had 2:05:20.560 --> 2:05:23.840 so thoroughly rewritten the rules of Rock? Shortly after the 2:05:23.920 --> 2:05:26.240 U S deposted on Musse in two thousand and three, 2:05:26.400 --> 2:05:30.280 Bootato Sauder, the son of another famous Rocky sh At 2:05:30.320 --> 2:05:33.400 religious figure. Both Sauders had been famous for this support 2:05:33.840 --> 2:05:36.880 and care for the poor. So when Sauder returned to 2:05:36.920 --> 2:05:40.280 a Rock, he began to build a political base among 2:05:40.320 --> 2:05:44.000 the Rocks working class, particularly in Solder City, a working 2:05:44.000 --> 2:05:47.760 class suburb of Baghdad. He used his organization to redistribute wealth, 2:05:48.200 --> 2:05:52.640 providing form of welfare states in an almost completely shattered country, 2:05:52.760 --> 2:05:54.880 but are In his allies also began to set up 2:05:54.920 --> 2:05:59.000 a network of freak clinics for pregnant and nursing mothers. 2:05:59.120 --> 2:06:02.120 They used these clinics, which were enormously popular to build 2:06:02.160 --> 2:06:05.400 a base of support. It is, after all, extremely difficult, 2:06:05.480 --> 2:06:09.240 no matter what your ideological or political disagreements with the group, 2:06:09.680 --> 2:06:12.960 to attack them when they're running free clinics for pregnant mothers. 2:06:13.360 --> 2:06:16.360 They protected these clinics with militias, which allowed them to 2:06:16.400 --> 2:06:20.200 transform the community organizations and good will that they had 2:06:20.240 --> 2:06:23.480 gained from the clinic into the military power necessary for 2:06:23.520 --> 2:06:27.440 self governance and eventually for resistance against the American occupation. 2:06:27.840 --> 2:06:32.080 Strategy proved enormously successful. Matadoro Sauder is still today one 2:06:32.080 --> 2:06:35.520 of the most important political figures in Iraq, despite sustained 2:06:35.560 --> 2:06:39.240 Coalition and Occupation Force attempts to stamp them out. But 2:06:39.360 --> 2:06:42.600 for all their working class support, the Solderists for by 2:06:42.600 --> 2:06:47.520 no means leftists. In late twenty nineteen, massive anti austerity, 2:06:47.640 --> 2:06:51.120 anti imperialists, and anti sectarian protests erupted in Iraq as 2:06:51.160 --> 2:06:55.320 a reaction to the murderous incompetence of the Iraqi government, who, 2:06:55.640 --> 2:06:58.960 among other crimes, managed to poison a hundred and eighteen 2:06:59.000 --> 2:07:02.640 thousand people in Oza through the mismanagement and subsequent contamination 2:07:02.680 --> 2:07:07.080 of the water supply. Also are initially backed the protest 2:07:07.480 --> 2:07:10.800 but turned on them in early at which point Souterist 2:07:10.840 --> 2:07:13.200 the militias begin to carry out a brutal campaign of 2:07:13.200 --> 2:07:17.959 repression against the protest camps that culminated in outrent massacres 2:07:17.960 --> 2:07:22.680 of protesters. These massacres became semi regular features of Soterist 2:07:22.680 --> 2:07:28.480 mass mobilizations, and alongside state and paramilitary disappearances of activists, 2:07:28.680 --> 2:07:32.480 the attacks essentially crushed the uprising. The violent homophobia and 2:07:32.520 --> 2:07:35.440 sexism of the Soderists may see met odds with their 2:07:35.480 --> 2:07:38.240 anti imperialism and concern for the poor, but right wing 2:07:38.320 --> 2:07:44.400 organizations have often adapted specific policies, positions, and organizational structures 2:07:44.400 --> 2:07:47.320 from the left, and in this case the Soderus moobilizations 2:07:47.320 --> 2:07:51.040 have been extremely effective. Indeed, writing organizations are often more 2:07:51.040 --> 2:07:55.000 effective at utilizing dual power tactics and organizations and leftist movements. 2:07:55.880 --> 2:07:58.560 This is partly because of a fundamental asymmetry between the 2:07:58.640 --> 2:08:02.280 right and the left. Right wing organizations can almost always 2:08:02.320 --> 2:08:06.480 depend on financial support from wealthy political backers, who, when 2:08:06.480 --> 2:08:09.480 push comes to shove, can simply create a movement with 2:08:09.520 --> 2:08:12.480 pure money, as the Cokes did to create the Tea Party. 2:08:13.200 --> 2:08:17.480 Leftists the ravings of right wing conspiracy theorists, notwithstanding, have 2:08:17.600 --> 2:08:21.040 no such backers. This funding and support can go a 2:08:21.040 --> 2:08:24.040 long way towards explaining the success of groups like Hezbollah. 2:08:24.240 --> 2:08:27.640 It is certainly true that without Iranian support, Hezbollah would 2:08:27.640 --> 2:08:29.320 not be the movement that it is today, but a 2:08:29.360 --> 2:08:32.400 great deal of their success is simply attributable to the 2:08:32.480 --> 2:08:35.760 tactics themselves. This does not escaped the notice of the U. S. 2:08:35.840 --> 2:08:41.280 Army Joint Special Operations Universities. Major James Love wrote a 2:08:41.320 --> 2:08:45.800 monograph entitled Hesbllah Social Services a Source of Power. In it, 2:08:46.000 --> 2:08:49.600 he writes, the most important branch of the Hezbillah organization 2:08:49.760 --> 2:08:52.920 is a social service section, which can be demonstrated by 2:08:52.960 --> 2:08:56.400 the allocation of an estimated fifty percent of Hesblah's two 2:08:56.440 --> 2:08:59.840 thousands seven budget will service efforts. It is through the 2:08:59.840 --> 2:09:03.280 work of the social service section that all party activities 2:09:03.320 --> 2:09:07.839 are possible. Hesbalah Social Service Section was designed to influence 2:09:07.880 --> 2:09:12.320 all aspects of Lebanzia society. The original intent of providing 2:09:12.360 --> 2:09:14.840 needed services to an oppressed people appears to have been 2:09:14.880 --> 2:09:17.840 manipulated by Hesbillah as a vehicle to bolster its ranks 2:09:18.280 --> 2:09:22.360 provide a humanitarian shield to the organization. Increased influence within 2:09:22.400 --> 2:09:25.640 the Lebanese government and combat at Shia arrival on Ball. 2:09:26.680 --> 2:09:29.760 The Social Service Section serves as an equal arm within 2:09:29.840 --> 2:09:33.320 the organization and is used as much as the military 2:09:33.360 --> 2:09:37.920 and political wing in terms of leverage. Hesbillah's Deputy Secretary 2:09:38.000 --> 2:09:41.200 General describes the purpose and intent of the Social Service 2:09:41.280 --> 2:09:45.400 Section and the following passage. Hesbalah paid particular attention to 2:09:45.440 --> 2:09:49.280 social work. Not one aspect of aiding the poor was neglected. 2:09:49.320 --> 2:09:53.280 As the party work towards achieving joint social responsibility, answering 2:09:53.360 --> 2:09:58.600 their urgent needs and introducing beneficial programs. Such work was 2:09:58.640 --> 2:10:02.839 simply considered party due d and concentrated effort towards raising 2:10:02.880 --> 2:10:07.400 funds and making available social service resources served. Towards achieving 2:10:07.440 --> 2:10:10.880 these goals. The party worked the best of its capacities, 2:10:11.280 --> 2:10:15.960 cooperating with official institutions to respond societal needs. Has Blah's 2:10:16.040 --> 2:10:21.280 provided medical aid, reconstruction assistance, education programs, and particularly programs 2:10:21.280 --> 2:10:24.960 that take care of patrons and widows, which have served 2:10:24.960 --> 2:10:28.120 to solidify their base. These organizations were critical to has 2:10:28.160 --> 2:10:32.080 Belah's meteoric rise from a political nonentity to arguably the 2:10:32.080 --> 2:10:35.880 most powerful factated side of Lebanese politics. Has Bela's state 2:10:35.920 --> 2:10:39.000 within a state, as it's become known, it's capable of 2:10:39.040 --> 2:10:42.280 even resisting the Israeli Army. Major Love's frustration with the 2:10:42.280 --> 2:10:45.640 inability of the American army to either deny has Belah's 2:10:45.640 --> 2:10:47.520 own aid efforts to replicate them in a way that 2:10:47.520 --> 2:10:51.160 could strengthen American power are testaments the effectiveness of such 2:10:51.160 --> 2:10:54.480 a technique and the dangers they posed to the American 2:10:54.520 --> 2:10:57.600 imperial and state project. One of those Love's major concerns 2:10:57.680 --> 2:11:00.280 is that American aid programs are simply caught up in takes. 2:11:00.280 --> 2:11:03.760 They're unable to respond as fast as community led efforts, 2:11:04.320 --> 2:11:06.720 which means that those efforts will get off the ground faster, 2:11:07.440 --> 2:11:11.360 get to the scene faster, and thus route the political benefits. 2:11:11.840 --> 2:11:14.480 When the state is unwilling or unable to provide services, 2:11:14.800 --> 2:11:17.760 especially in the wake of disasters, it leaves a power 2:11:17.880 --> 2:11:20.600 vacuum for organizations to exploit. May not have heard of 2:11:20.600 --> 2:11:24.760 the RSS before. It's a paramilitary group affiliated with India's 2:11:24.840 --> 2:11:28.600 ruling party, the b j P Council. Among its members 2:11:28.640 --> 2:11:32.800 India's Prime Minister Modi. It's also probably the world's largest 2:11:32.800 --> 2:11:37.959 fascist organization. The RSS was founded in a group nominally 2:11:38.000 --> 2:11:42.480 dedicated to protecting and promoting Hindu interests. What this means 2:11:42.480 --> 2:11:45.480 in practice is that the RSS is dedicated to creating 2:11:45.480 --> 2:11:48.520 a Hindu state and maintains and promotes a violent hatred 2:11:48.560 --> 2:11:52.160 of Muslims. The results in RSS members being at the 2:11:52.200 --> 2:11:55.240 forefront of anti Muslim programs. The r s s IS 2:11:55.320 --> 2:11:58.000 pre World War Two leaders were open admirers of Hitler 2:11:58.040 --> 2:12:01.240 and Mussolini, and while they eventually rely abandoned those positions 2:12:01.240 --> 2:12:03.920 at the start of World War Two, the rss is 2:12:03.960 --> 2:12:08.000 politics have remained thoroughly fascist in the intense communal rioting 2:12:08.040 --> 2:12:11.320 that both preceded and followed the partition of India and Pakistan. 2:12:11.360 --> 2:12:15.760 After independence, which saw mass population transfers of Hindus and 2:12:15.840 --> 2:12:18.560 Muslims and the death of somewhere between two hundred thousand 2:12:18.640 --> 2:12:22.160 and two million people, the RSS established itself as a 2:12:22.200 --> 2:12:26.080 protector of Hindi refugees against Muslim violence, provided protection and 2:12:26.120 --> 2:12:29.440 aid to those trying to survive the chaos the Good 2:12:29.440 --> 2:12:33.560 World has generated, however, collapse after a former RSS member 2:12:33.560 --> 2:12:35.960 did the single most famous thing anyone associated with the 2:12:36.040 --> 2:12:41.600 RSS has ever done, assassinated Gandhi. The RSS was almost 2:12:41.600 --> 2:12:44.720 immediately banned, but in light of the terrible pr you 2:12:44.760 --> 2:12:48.560 get when you're associated with killing Gandhi, the RSS became 2:12:48.560 --> 2:12:52.880 increasingly involved with disaster relief over half a century of 2:12:52.920 --> 2:12:57.520 painstaking organizing, It created schools and youth programs to spread 2:12:57.560 --> 2:13:01.120 its influence and use them to fuel further anti Muslim violence. 2:13:01.840 --> 2:13:05.040 In two thousand one, the organization gained national acclaim for 2:13:05.040 --> 2:13:08.879 its response to a massive earthquake and Gunjarat. The RSS 2:13:08.960 --> 2:13:12.200 heavily emphasized the non discriminatory nature of their aid work 2:13:12.200 --> 2:13:16.160 in their propaganda, but in reality, many of the villages 2:13:16.200 --> 2:13:20.640 the RS s had rebuilt after the devastation had been 2:13:20.640 --> 2:13:23.640 transformed into miniature versions at the fabled Hindu state that 2:13:23.680 --> 2:13:27.760 the RSS seeks to impose on all of India. Strategically, 2:13:28.160 --> 2:13:30.960 this should look familiar to us now. It's essentially a 2:13:31.000 --> 2:13:35.520 fascist form of prefigurative politics. The RSS used an earthquake 2:13:36.280 --> 2:13:38.640 to build the structure of the new Hindu society in 2:13:38.680 --> 2:13:41.960 the shell of the old. The BJPS dominance over Indian 2:13:42.000 --> 2:13:45.080 politics while led by a member of the RSS, and 2:13:45.120 --> 2:13:48.920 the brutal crackdowns body carried out in Kashmir, our bloody 2:13:48.960 --> 2:13:53.720 testament to the success of their strategy. Christian fundamentalist organizations 2:13:54.160 --> 2:13:57.160 have also been extremely effective and utilizing their own form 2:13:57.200 --> 2:14:01.080 of routing profigurative politics the in a somewhat different way. 2:14:01.120 --> 2:14:04.400 In the RSS, their new world is defined above all 2:14:04.480 --> 2:14:10.040 by theocratic patriarchal authoritarianism. Like the radicals that occupy, the 2:14:10.080 --> 2:14:12.920 religious right was operating off of a form of contagion theory, 2:14:13.280 --> 2:14:16.600 theory that exposure to their social organizations and forms would 2:14:16.640 --> 2:14:20.200 essentially be contagious and spread, but the Christian rights preferred 2:14:20.240 --> 2:14:25.080 form as the patriarchal family, which serves as a microcosm 2:14:25.120 --> 2:14:29.480 of the kind of hierarchy and patriarchal violence that dominate 2:14:29.680 --> 2:14:33.840 their long dreamed of theocratic society. The Christian Right would 2:14:33.880 --> 2:14:36.240 instill these values into their children and send them off 2:14:36.240 --> 2:14:39.800 into the world to propagate their ideology. Ettinger, an expert 2:14:39.800 --> 2:14:42.600 on the Christian Right, wrote this about the second phase 2:14:42.640 --> 2:14:47.520 of the strategy. In several church leaders came up with 2:14:47.560 --> 2:14:51.160 a new approach, identifying seven spheres of culture to focus 2:14:51.200 --> 2:14:53.880 on one after another to try to bring about the 2:14:53.960 --> 2:14:57.480 lasting change and have a significant impact on the superstructure 2:14:57.480 --> 2:15:01.680 of American culture. Lauren kind Ingham, founder of Youth with 2:15:01.720 --> 2:15:06.200 the Mission, a Christian Missionary Group coordinating International and National 2:15:06.240 --> 2:15:10.520 mission Church for Young Christians describes these seven areas as such, 2:15:11.360 --> 2:15:13.760 these are the areas you can go on as missionaries. 2:15:14.200 --> 2:15:18.120 Here they are. First, it's the institution set up by God. 2:15:18.200 --> 2:15:23.040 First the family. After the family was the church or 2:15:23.080 --> 2:15:26.000 the people of God. The third was the area of 2:15:26.080 --> 2:15:31.280 school or education. The fourth was media public communication in 2:15:31.320 --> 2:15:34.800 all forms printed in electronic. The fifth was what I 2:15:34.840 --> 2:15:39.720 call celebration, the arts, entertainment, sports, where you celebrate within 2:15:39.760 --> 2:15:42.640 a culture. The six would be the whole area of 2:15:42.680 --> 2:15:47.160 the economy, which starts with innovation and science and technology, productivity, 2:15:47.360 --> 2:15:51.959 sales and service. The whole area we often call it business, 2:15:52.920 --> 2:15:55.920 but we leave out something. We leave up the scientific 2:15:55.960 --> 2:15:59.520 part which actually raises the wealth of the world. Anything 2:15:59.600 --> 2:16:02.800 new like making sand and chips for a microchip that 2:16:02.880 --> 2:16:06.360 increases wealth in the world. And then of course prediction, 2:16:06.440 --> 2:16:09.960 sales and service helps to spread the wealth. And so 2:16:10.040 --> 2:16:14.400 the last area was the area of government. This is 2:16:14.440 --> 2:16:18.520 a need encapsulation of the rights. Refigurative politics start first 2:16:18.560 --> 2:16:22.280 with the family, and then with the church, then reshaped 2:16:22.280 --> 2:16:25.480 school and education and mass media in their image, and 2:16:25.560 --> 2:16:27.800 from there you can begin to take the entire economy. 2:16:28.000 --> 2:16:32.440 Churches have also long used aid programs to proselytize and 2:16:32.480 --> 2:16:36.160 also expand their control over the population which becomes dependent 2:16:36.240 --> 2:16:38.520 on their aid. And the places where the left has 2:16:38.520 --> 2:16:41.640 failed to provide for their community, the far right has 2:16:41.640 --> 2:16:44.519 stepped in and has been able to rapidly and effectively 2:16:44.600 --> 2:16:49.320 reshape the political landscape. This does not mean, however, that 2:16:49.440 --> 2:16:52.720 they can't be beaten. Cooperation Jackson has offered one of 2:16:52.720 --> 2:16:55.879 the most powerful visions of dual power in the modern US. 2:16:56.840 --> 2:16:59.640 A product of the New African People's Organization and the 2:16:59.680 --> 2:17:04.240 malk of ex grassroots movements, Jackson Cush Plan. Cooperation Jackson 2:17:04.280 --> 2:17:07.000 has put forward a radical and democratic bottle of dual 2:17:07.040 --> 2:17:09.520 power with the aim of turning over control of the 2:17:09.640 --> 2:17:12.279 land and the means of production into Jackson's black working 2:17:12.320 --> 2:17:14.879 class and allowing it to achieve its own self determination. 2:17:16.000 --> 2:17:19.800 Cooperation Jackson has form mutual Aid Networks, started an incubated 2:17:19.840 --> 2:17:22.680 program to help workers cooperatives get off the ground, and 2:17:22.720 --> 2:17:25.640 formed a community land trust that purchases abandoned buildings in 2:17:25.760 --> 2:17:28.440 Jackson it turns them over to the community. They've also 2:17:28.640 --> 2:17:32.320 somewhat unusually wound up engaged in the electoral process. After 2:17:32.360 --> 2:17:36.039 the untimely death of Ally and Jackson Mayor Choqua la Boomba, 2:17:36.120 --> 2:17:38.600 which led to the election of his son, Choqua at 2:17:38.760 --> 2:17:41.800 La Bomba. This placed the movement in a somewhat awkward 2:17:41.840 --> 2:17:45.040 position of having allies, even if constrained by the realities 2:17:45.040 --> 2:17:50.320 of state power in the state itself. But politics in 2:17:50.320 --> 2:17:52.840 the real world is never as clean as the models 2:17:52.879 --> 2:17:56.000 we create to describe it. It is only in our 2:17:56.040 --> 2:17:59.840 ability to adapt the changing conditions of struggle while maintaining 2:17:59.840 --> 2:18:03.039 a political principles that we can build the new world 2:18:03.120 --> 2:18:06.280 in the shell of the old, and we can build it. 2:18:07.360 --> 2:18:18.440 The question simply, will we When P. T. Barnum's Great 2:18:18.440 --> 2:18:21.360 American Museum burned to the ground in eighteen sixty five, 2:18:21.520 --> 2:18:25.240 what rose from its ashes would change the world? Welcome 2:18:25.320 --> 2:18:28.960 to Grim and Mild presents an ongoing journey into the strange, 2:18:29.040 --> 2:18:33.080 the unusual, and the fascinating. For our inaugural season will 2:18:33.080 --> 2:18:35.959 be giving you a backstage tour of the always complex 2:18:36.120 --> 2:18:40.760 and often misunderstood cultural artifact that is the American Side Show. 2:18:41.160 --> 2:18:43.560 So come along as we visit the shadowy corners of 2:18:43.560 --> 2:18:46.040 the stage and learn about the people who were at 2:18:46.080 --> 2:18:48.680 the center of it. All in a place where spectacle 2:18:48.840 --> 2:18:52.120 was king. We will soon discover there's always more to 2:18:52.160 --> 2:18:55.320 the story than meets the eye. So step right up 2:18:55.400 --> 2:18:58.720 and get in line. Listen to Grim and Mile Presents 2:18:58.760 --> 2:19:01.440 now on the I Heart ratei you app, Apple Podcasts, 2:19:01.520 --> 2:19:05.080 or wherever you listen to podcasts. Learn more over at 2:19:05.120 --> 2:19:11.879 Grimm and Mild dot com Slash Presents. I'm Ev Rodsky, 2:19:12.000 --> 2:19:14.440 author of the New York Times bestseller fair Play and 2:19:14.480 --> 2:19:18.039 Find Your Unicorn Space, activists on the gender division of labor, 2:19:18.200 --> 2:19:22.120 attorney and family mediator. And I'm Dr Aditya Rucar, a 2:19:22.160 --> 2:19:25.240 Harvard physician and medical correspondent with an expertise and the 2:19:25.280 --> 2:19:29.119 science of stress, resilience, mental health and burnout. We're so 2:19:29.200 --> 2:19:32.360 excited to share our podcast Time Out, a production of 2:19:32.400 --> 2:19:36.320 I Heart Podcasts and Hell of Sunshine. We're uncovering why 2:19:36.400 --> 2:19:38.920 society makes it so hard for women to treat their 2:19:38.959 --> 2:19:41.760 time with the value it deserves. So take this time 2:19:41.800 --> 2:19:45.000 out with us. Listen to Time Out, a fair Play 2:19:45.080 --> 2:19:48.720 podcast on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 2:19:48.760 --> 2:20:03.039 wherever you get your podcasts. Well, that wasn't very good. 2:20:03.400 --> 2:20:06.480 I'm Robert Evans, host of the podcast You're listening to 2:20:07.040 --> 2:20:11.800 and ashamed of, probably because that was Jesus Christ. Garrison, 2:20:11.920 --> 2:20:19.160 come in here, fix this, Fix this Garrison. Um, this 2:20:19.320 --> 2:20:21.720 is it could happen here a podcast about the fact 2:20:21.720 --> 2:20:25.000 that the world was folding apart, as embodied by me 2:20:25.120 --> 2:20:27.680 falling apart when I try to introduce the show, see 2:20:27.720 --> 2:20:30.640 I tied it in. Yeah, A good job, thank you, 2:20:30.760 --> 2:20:34.880 thank you. Well it is it is. It has to rhyme. 2:20:34.920 --> 2:20:39.440 It's like it's like the Star Wars movies. That's our 2:20:39.480 --> 2:20:42.800 guest today is Melissa A. Sidera founder and director of 2:20:42.840 --> 2:20:49.320 Polo's Pantry, a mutual aid food distribution project in Los Angeles, California. 2:20:49.480 --> 2:20:52.360 A Melissa, thank you for coming on and talking to us. 2:20:53.560 --> 2:20:55.600 Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm pleasure to 2:20:55.640 --> 2:20:59.720 be here. I apologize for the introduction, but I honestly 2:20:59.800 --> 2:21:02.360 it's better. It was better than I usually do, so 2:21:02.400 --> 2:21:06.800 if you can back that up. Okay. So I'm an 2:21:06.920 --> 2:21:10.840 l A native, and um I've been doing community organizing 2:21:10.920 --> 2:21:14.840 for probably like close to a decade, doing a lot 2:21:14.840 --> 2:21:17.520 of community work for a lot of time, and a 2:21:17.560 --> 2:21:20.600 few years before the pandemic, actually, I started to organize 2:21:20.680 --> 2:21:26.039 with a lot of grassroots organizations in l A working 2:21:26.080 --> 2:21:28.600 with a lot of house less folks UM all over 2:21:28.760 --> 2:21:33.480 l A, and kind of clock pretty early that a lot, 2:21:33.600 --> 2:21:35.200 you know, a lot of a lot of groups were 2:21:35.200 --> 2:21:40.960 burning through their budgets spending it on food. And so 2:21:41.000 --> 2:21:45.359 since I worked in kind of the food industry, I 2:21:45.400 --> 2:21:48.560 started to kind of poke around and figure out that 2:21:48.640 --> 2:21:50.720 we could get a lot of these things donated to 2:21:50.840 --> 2:21:55.680 us UM and pretty much started building a roster like building, 2:21:55.760 --> 2:22:00.080 kind of like a rolodex of UM other organizations and 2:22:00.120 --> 2:22:03.640 snow profits, UM food banks that we could rely on. 2:22:04.520 --> 2:22:07.080 So almost kind of created sort of like an altera 2:22:07.480 --> 2:22:12.800 system UM for these groups who are working with houseless 2:22:12.840 --> 2:22:16.560 folks to get food every week. UM. I just wanted 2:22:16.600 --> 2:22:19.320 to figure out a way to make a steady and 2:22:19.360 --> 2:22:22.680 the reliable system so that our own house neighbors would 2:22:22.680 --> 2:22:25.800 get food and that organizers across l A wouldn't have 2:22:25.840 --> 2:22:28.680 to worry about it. And so that's pretty much how 2:22:28.800 --> 2:22:33.840 POLO started officially started in two thousand eighteen. I was 2:22:34.000 --> 2:22:38.279 organizing with a group called Katon for All and UH, 2:22:38.360 --> 2:22:41.360 they do a lot of political advocacy and mostly rooted 2:22:41.400 --> 2:22:44.800 in like UM kind of you know, human rights for 2:22:44.840 --> 2:22:48.280 our houses neighbors. If you don't know Katon for all, 2:22:48.280 --> 2:22:53.920 look them up. They're awesome, follow them fantastic. Yeah, And 2:22:53.959 --> 2:22:57.760 you know, I actually was because I was already doing 2:22:57.800 --> 2:23:01.600 a lot of mutual aid where in skid Row around 2:23:01.640 --> 2:23:05.840 that time and really kind of felt at some point, 2:23:06.400 --> 2:23:09.600 um that you know, like, yes, it was great that 2:23:09.680 --> 2:23:12.800 I was going out there with teams getting hot meals 2:23:12.840 --> 2:23:16.360 out and hot beverages whatever people needed to people, but 2:23:17.240 --> 2:23:19.480 I just was so down on what in the conditions, 2:23:19.520 --> 2:23:21.920 seeing all the conditions that they were living in, and 2:23:21.959 --> 2:23:24.480 I just wanted to meet other activists and other folks 2:23:25.360 --> 2:23:28.959 um who could really figure out how you connect people 2:23:29.000 --> 2:23:32.880 to services and and just really you know, anyone working 2:23:32.879 --> 2:23:35.520 in policy. That's so that's really changing things for people 2:23:35.520 --> 2:23:38.480 out there. And so I wanted to take sort of 2:23:38.480 --> 2:23:41.320 my advocacy and like my work a step further and 2:23:41.360 --> 2:23:43.560 connected with activists all the rail day. And so that's 2:23:43.560 --> 2:23:46.160 sort of like my organ is really rooted in a 2:23:46.200 --> 2:23:50.760 lot of activism and organizing. So I see I see 2:23:50.800 --> 2:23:53.280 a lot of I'm not sort of your standard kind 2:23:53.280 --> 2:23:56.959 of order nonprofit. I really see things in the lens 2:23:56.959 --> 2:23:59.560 when as a community organizer. And so that's why our 2:24:00.040 --> 2:24:05.080 um our work is pretty much exploded during COVID. I'm 2:24:05.160 --> 2:24:08.440 kind of interested for for starters because you're you're, you know, 2:24:08.959 --> 2:24:11.720 this is um a mutual aid project as opposed to 2:24:11.760 --> 2:24:13.600 kind of a charity project, and what do you what 2:24:13.680 --> 2:24:18.720 do you see as being the dividing line there? Well, 2:24:18.840 --> 2:24:22.160 for you know, for a lot of for us, you know, 2:24:22.160 --> 2:24:24.320 it's very easy for for folks to kind of see 2:24:24.360 --> 2:24:26.280 the work that we do as part of the kind 2:24:26.320 --> 2:24:30.360 of charitable food system because obviously we're you know, UM 2:24:31.160 --> 2:24:35.520 mutual aid. It's the difference really is that obviously, UM, 2:24:35.560 --> 2:24:40.000 you know, there there's a there is a reciprocity between 2:24:40.040 --> 2:24:45.000 the two of you, UM, between between neighborhoods, between individuals, 2:24:45.040 --> 2:24:50.640 between organizations of sharing resources with each other UM and 2:24:51.000 --> 2:24:53.720 charitable obviously is that there's only one way, right, there's 2:24:53.720 --> 2:24:58.360 only like one person giving. But for us, UM, the 2:24:58.400 --> 2:25:01.600 way we picked our part nerves. I mean, you're you're 2:25:01.720 --> 2:25:06.000 ready part of this nucleus of kind of a coalition 2:25:06.120 --> 2:25:09.000 of ors doing this work. So it was just ready 2:25:09.200 --> 2:25:11.840 very easy for us to kind of share resources with 2:25:11.879 --> 2:25:14.360 each other. So I was doing food and some folks 2:25:14.400 --> 2:25:18.240 were doing hygiene kits. Other folks were doing tents, other 2:25:18.320 --> 2:25:21.240 folks were doing types or whatever, and so there was 2:25:21.360 --> 2:25:26.160 so much you know, kind of mutualid and activity going on. 2:25:26.280 --> 2:25:28.480 And so that that's why we're we're really kind of 2:25:28.520 --> 2:25:32.119 rooted in that COUM in that thinking as far as 2:25:32.280 --> 2:25:36.440 as opposed to charitable orgs that basically just set up 2:25:36.480 --> 2:25:39.560 somewhere and give, you know, give give stuff out to people. 2:25:40.440 --> 2:25:43.960 And so we have look in part and part of 2:25:44.000 --> 2:25:47.680 my advisory circle are a lot of houseless neighbors UM 2:25:47.760 --> 2:25:52.000 houses leaders in our community. UM. I also take a 2:25:52.000 --> 2:25:58.440 lot of advice from UM Indigenous organizers UM black community 2:25:58.480 --> 2:26:02.400 leaders in different neighborhoods that work in. So our work 2:26:02.480 --> 2:26:04.960 is really informed by the community. And so we basically 2:26:05.000 --> 2:26:06.680 asked we to, hey, you know, like what can we 2:26:06.720 --> 2:26:12.360 do UM and plug into to work that UM that 2:26:12.440 --> 2:26:15.560 already exists in those in those areas. I hope, I 2:26:15.640 --> 2:26:19.039 hope that means sense. But that's kind of how I 2:26:19.080 --> 2:26:22.680 feel about what we do and and as an as 2:26:22.720 --> 2:26:24.400 an organizer, because I think we get a lot of 2:26:24.480 --> 2:26:27.400 questions from people who are interested in starting mutual aid 2:26:27.520 --> 2:26:30.800 projects in their own areas. And one of the questions 2:26:30.800 --> 2:26:32.480 we often have it's like, well, how do I how 2:26:32.480 --> 2:26:36.480 do I do that? Right? UM? And yeah, I'm interested 2:26:36.480 --> 2:26:39.240 in like like if you could kind of walk us 2:26:39.240 --> 2:26:42.000 through the steps when when Polo's pantry got started, Like 2:26:42.040 --> 2:26:44.360 what is what was the kind of order of operations 2:26:44.400 --> 2:26:45.960 that you had to go through to get this this 2:26:46.040 --> 2:26:48.080 up and running. I think the first thing to do 2:26:48.200 --> 2:26:51.119 is really too for me, it was already kind of 2:26:51.440 --> 2:26:54.640 being part of grassroots UM or so I was part 2:26:54.680 --> 2:26:58.400 of a few of them, UM and so it's really 2:26:58.400 --> 2:27:03.320 important to UM to kind of identify the needs of 2:27:03.320 --> 2:27:07.200 a community first before setting up your ORC. So I 2:27:07.240 --> 2:27:10.320 feel like I already had an idea of you know, 2:27:10.400 --> 2:27:14.080 of of what certain orcs needed, UM which areas how 2:27:14.120 --> 2:27:17.920 many and so kind of identifying the needs first kind 2:27:17.959 --> 2:27:20.959 of UM number one and and and to do that 2:27:21.640 --> 2:27:24.560 you really have to connect with the grassroots organizations, local 2:27:24.600 --> 2:27:28.119 ones in your area. So you know, I recommend really 2:27:28.200 --> 2:27:30.480 just kind of doing researchers. Always folks doing that kind 2:27:30.520 --> 2:27:33.720 of stuff all over. If you're into political advocacy, there's 2:27:33.760 --> 2:27:36.879 folks that do that. There are folks who are more 2:27:36.920 --> 2:27:39.879 food justice oriented, Like I would recommend going to a 2:27:39.920 --> 2:27:44.000 local food bank or soup kitchens to have also like 2:27:44.040 --> 2:27:45.760 I've been doing that for years, and I've met a 2:27:45.800 --> 2:27:49.600 lot of people with kind of similar values mine UM. 2:27:49.600 --> 2:27:53.879 So just kind of pretty much identify one what you'd 2:27:53.879 --> 2:27:57.240 like to do, what you're good at UM, and then 2:27:57.680 --> 2:28:01.920 essentially research UM, you know, kind of opportunities to tap 2:28:01.959 --> 2:28:06.560 into a local organ doing that work, and then essentially 2:28:06.720 --> 2:28:09.600 start organizing with them. Right. I don't I don't recommend 2:28:09.640 --> 2:28:13.720 to build, like to build an organ prior to not 2:28:13.920 --> 2:28:16.680 having this kind of knowledge, because I feel like it's 2:28:16.760 --> 2:28:21.800 really crucial to sort of kind of map out first 2:28:22.120 --> 2:28:26.320 what the community needs instead of you building mutual aid 2:28:26.400 --> 2:28:30.280 organization based on you know whatever, Because I feel like 2:28:30.320 --> 2:28:33.240 it's it's important to work through things from the ground 2:28:33.320 --> 2:28:37.000 up UM. That way, you feel like the work is impactful. 2:28:37.680 --> 2:28:42.320 That way, the community is leading and informing your work. 2:28:42.400 --> 2:28:44.520 And so that's that's kind of like how I I 2:28:44.560 --> 2:28:48.160 approached the line. So look for a local organ so 2:28:48.360 --> 2:28:51.200 kind of sit in organizing for a little bit, and 2:28:51.240 --> 2:28:54.080 then from there once he once you guys identify what 2:28:54.120 --> 2:28:57.720 it is UM and start to kind of have an 2:28:57.720 --> 2:29:00.960 idea of the demand or the need in that area, 2:29:01.879 --> 2:29:06.280 then start to reach out to say for me for 2:29:06.280 --> 2:29:12.080 for food. A lot of local. Um, local chains will well, 2:29:12.240 --> 2:29:14.000 well pretty much if you if you tell them what 2:29:14.040 --> 2:29:17.720 you're doing, um, a lot of them will support you. 2:29:17.800 --> 2:29:20.440 So I actually have I started with just going literally 2:29:20.520 --> 2:29:24.039 to my local Ralphs and telling the manager. They're like, hey, 2:29:24.080 --> 2:29:26.760 this is what I'm doing. I'm starting this or you know, 2:29:27.000 --> 2:29:30.520 wasn't Ralph's being a local grocery store in Likes Angeles, 2:29:30.600 --> 2:29:33.400 Harry or a lot of I didn't know what Ralph's 2:29:33.480 --> 2:29:35.120 was before I moved to l A. So I just 2:29:35.160 --> 2:29:36.880 wanted to be like, she's not just like rolling over 2:29:36.920 --> 2:29:41.960 to where buddy Ralph's house, like, guess you've got some food? Yeah? Sorry, yeah, 2:29:42.000 --> 2:29:45.120 so that Ralph's out here in l A. So most 2:29:45.160 --> 2:29:49.760 places yeah yeah yeah and will more folks said not 2:29:49.800 --> 2:29:52.320 everyone is down for that kind of stuff, but somehow 2:29:52.360 --> 2:29:54.440 you'll you'll really end up on one that's really you know, 2:29:54.480 --> 2:29:57.840 that is really unkind. I think most folks have to 2:29:57.879 --> 2:30:00.400 realize that this this this kind of work is not 2:30:00.680 --> 2:30:05.760 it didn't happen overnight like building like building uh, you know, 2:30:05.840 --> 2:30:09.960 like a reliable network of people to donate to you is. 2:30:11.400 --> 2:30:14.440 It takes time. So but I think if if you 2:30:14.600 --> 2:30:18.600 hit kind of larger chains, you will get UM. You know, 2:30:18.640 --> 2:30:20.760 you'll you'll you'll get you'll start to get a steady 2:30:20.760 --> 2:30:23.760 supply from them. Do you have any kind of advice 2:30:23.879 --> 2:30:27.200 for UM, when you're actually approaching you know, manager at 2:30:27.320 --> 2:30:29.960 Ralphs or something somebody actually who works for Like, what 2:30:30.040 --> 2:30:31.600 do you have like I don't know, like a script, 2:30:31.640 --> 2:30:33.600 but kind of a rough guy to like here's how 2:30:33.640 --> 2:30:35.880 I try to start these conversations here. Some ways I 2:30:35.959 --> 2:30:37.879 try to phrase for things because that could be useful 2:30:37.879 --> 2:30:40.400 for folks. You know, I actually have like a form 2:30:40.520 --> 2:30:43.240 letters that I could share later. Maybe you can show, Yeah, 2:30:43.280 --> 2:30:46.440 that would be great, UM that you know that they 2:30:46.440 --> 2:30:48.800 can use to UM you know, if they're if they're 2:30:48.800 --> 2:30:52.959 going to UM solicit folks with that stuff. And I 2:30:53.000 --> 2:30:55.200 think a lot of mutual aid organizations to have that 2:30:55.320 --> 2:30:58.600 kind of UM kind of literature, that kind of form 2:30:58.800 --> 2:31:03.360 so UM, I think just basically kind of letting them 2:31:03.400 --> 2:31:06.680 know who you are, who you're serving, UM, how often 2:31:07.120 --> 2:31:12.400 which demographic is going to that's usually really important. UM. 2:31:12.520 --> 2:31:16.320 What what helped me though, was I was as I 2:31:16.360 --> 2:31:19.240 started to get more serious about about doing the food work, 2:31:19.680 --> 2:31:22.920 I connected to you know, some some community partners and 2:31:23.000 --> 2:31:27.720 I actually UM turned Polos into a fiscally sponsored organ 2:31:27.879 --> 2:31:30.680 so we moved from being just fully grassroots to being 2:31:30.680 --> 2:31:35.600 physically sponsored. That basically means we're operating under the five 2:31:35.640 --> 2:31:38.560 O one C three number of another organization, of a 2:31:38.640 --> 2:31:42.480 larger organization. So that that was that open, so so 2:31:42.600 --> 2:31:45.240 many opportunities for us. It really allowed us to be 2:31:45.280 --> 2:31:49.160 able to access larger amounts of food and really help 2:31:49.200 --> 2:31:51.520 out a lot of a lot of a lot of 2:31:51.560 --> 2:31:54.560 smaller organs. I needed to get their food programs off 2:31:54.560 --> 2:31:59.200 the ground and so UM that is something I recommend 2:31:59.240 --> 2:32:02.560 if you're if people are serious about it, to define 2:32:02.640 --> 2:32:06.400 a community of community partner who who isn't established five 2:32:06.560 --> 2:32:10.880 one C three that they trust UM to see if 2:32:10.879 --> 2:32:12.400 they if they you know, if they can sign on 2:32:12.560 --> 2:32:16.440 to to be a physical sponsor UM. That I think 2:32:16.520 --> 2:32:18.320 is one of the quickest ways to be able to 2:32:18.879 --> 2:32:22.480 UM to really kind of establish yourself as as far 2:32:22.560 --> 2:32:26.520 as getting larger amounts of food. But then and by that, 2:32:26.600 --> 2:32:29.520 I mean getting pallets of food, not just cases, but 2:32:29.600 --> 2:32:34.080 literally pallets of food delivered to wherever you are. As 2:32:34.080 --> 2:32:37.200 soon as we did that, that completely changed the game UM. 2:32:37.320 --> 2:32:39.840 And and I think I did that because I knew 2:32:40.200 --> 2:32:42.520 I had so many friends who were doing mutual aid 2:32:43.080 --> 2:32:46.120 that needed so you know, just so much stuff from 2:32:46.720 --> 2:32:51.360 from groceries to um, you know, fresh produce, and it 2:32:51.400 --> 2:32:53.920 wasn't and it wasn't you know, it didn't stop in food. 2:32:54.040 --> 2:32:58.200 We were getting you know, hand sanitizer, we were getting tense, 2:32:58.360 --> 2:33:02.599 we were getting all sorts of stuff, know and so um. 2:33:02.680 --> 2:33:05.200 So yeah, that's what I recommend for folks were serious 2:33:05.200 --> 2:33:09.520 about food is to really again start to build a 2:33:09.640 --> 2:33:14.280 relationship with local businesses, um that they that they like 2:33:14.600 --> 2:33:18.400 food businesses, and really telling people this is what I'm doing. 2:33:19.120 --> 2:33:21.480 If you're if you know, if you're if you're you know, 2:33:21.520 --> 2:33:24.040 if you are what support us, you know, like this 2:33:24.080 --> 2:33:27.440 is um, you know, these are these are the days 2:33:27.480 --> 2:33:29.600 that we need food or whatever, or these are the 2:33:29.640 --> 2:33:32.160 times that we'll need food and just let them know 2:33:32.200 --> 2:33:34.240 that you know, you're you're happy to pick it up 2:33:35.080 --> 2:33:38.600 or that you're happy to because there's there's I think 2:33:38.840 --> 2:33:43.680 at least for California, we're starting to change law like 2:33:43.800 --> 2:33:47.280 policy and law behind food waste, and so I think, um, 2:33:47.360 --> 2:33:50.360 something's going to change in the January of two where 2:33:51.720 --> 2:33:54.800 a lot of food waste basically going to decrease because 2:33:55.000 --> 2:33:58.039 it's gonna be much more difficult. The city is gonna 2:33:58.080 --> 2:34:01.320 make it much more difficult for for businesses to just 2:34:01.440 --> 2:34:04.640 carry this stuff. Um they're they're really pushing them to 2:34:05.280 --> 2:34:10.720 uh um to separate them. But anyway, regardless, you're helping 2:34:10.760 --> 2:34:14.440 the business really um move, you know, move food waste, 2:34:14.680 --> 2:34:17.600 and and most of them, and a lot of employees 2:34:17.640 --> 2:34:21.080 too that I've talked to UM just you know, just 2:34:21.160 --> 2:34:23.960 our heartbreak and every time they have to clear out 2:34:24.000 --> 2:34:27.120 you know, a full full tray or just trays and 2:34:27.200 --> 2:34:29.800 trays of of of of you know, of a perfectly 2:34:29.840 --> 2:34:33.280 fine food. So yeah, there's there's a video going viral 2:34:33.400 --> 2:34:36.360 on Twitter right now of of like someone working at 2:34:36.400 --> 2:34:40.160 Dunking Donuts and just like dumping just like hundreds and 2:34:40.320 --> 2:34:44.160 hundreds of donuts into the garbage and then and that happens. 2:34:44.200 --> 2:34:47.000 That happens every single day. You know. I have I 2:34:47.040 --> 2:34:48.959 have friends who used to work on Whole Foods and 2:34:48.959 --> 2:34:51.879 they would tell me just just how heartbreaking it was, 2:34:52.000 --> 2:34:55.440 just the amount, just the massive amount of who that's 2:34:55.440 --> 2:34:57.600 being wasted out. Yeah, it's evil, it's it's it's it's 2:34:57.640 --> 2:35:00.879 it's it's it's it's it's a thing in the more 2:35:00.959 --> 2:35:04.240 difficult days ahead, as you know, things like well like 2:35:04.320 --> 2:35:07.440 we under in a lot of areas, like the crop 2:35:07.520 --> 2:35:09.920 was half of what it normally is this year. That's 2:35:09.920 --> 2:35:12.160 going to continue. One day we will look at videos 2:35:12.280 --> 2:35:18.039 of Duncan Donuts dropping an entire day's worth of donuts 2:35:18.040 --> 2:35:20.879 into the trash and use it as a pretext to 2:35:20.920 --> 2:35:24.600 bring executives to trial. And it's going to be like 2:35:24.600 --> 2:35:28.160 like like a war crime. Yeah is I mean, I 2:35:28.160 --> 2:35:31.600 mean honestly though, as someone in food um um, you know, 2:35:31.760 --> 2:35:35.520 like the food system is changing massively in so many ways. 2:35:35.600 --> 2:35:37.720 I feel like the one kind of good thing that 2:35:37.760 --> 2:35:41.560 happened in the pandemic is that lawmakers were able to 2:35:41.600 --> 2:35:46.600 identify that the white snap or orm cal Fresh pretty 2:35:46.680 --> 2:35:50.920 much food stamps were not enough really to um, you know, 2:35:51.000 --> 2:35:54.840 to feed families a few people. It's not nearly enough though, 2:35:55.160 --> 2:35:57.760 but at least it kind of pushes the needles where 2:35:57.760 --> 2:36:01.800 we need where we needed to go. Um. And I 2:36:01.840 --> 2:36:06.800 think I think, having having been so focused and so 2:36:06.920 --> 2:36:09.920 like in the center of mutual aid work in l A, 2:36:10.400 --> 2:36:13.520 I'm able to kind of broadly tell you know, tell 2:36:13.640 --> 2:36:17.720 um really tell lawmakers too that hey, you know, there's 2:36:17.800 --> 2:36:20.640 so much um, there's so much meat out there, but 2:36:20.680 --> 2:36:24.280 the community themselves have built alternate food systems to be 2:36:24.360 --> 2:36:28.920 able to care for themselves. I feel like my hope 2:36:29.600 --> 2:36:33.800 really is to be able to to kind of hyperlocalize 2:36:33.800 --> 2:36:39.119 our food systems that way. Neighborhoods and really like communities 2:36:39.160 --> 2:36:43.280 are are essentially dictating their own you know, their own needs. 2:36:43.320 --> 2:36:45.920 They're they're basically bringing in the resources that they want. 2:36:46.560 --> 2:36:49.440 They're bringing in the kind of food that they want, 2:36:49.520 --> 2:36:53.240 you know, and um, and really just working towards the 2:36:53.360 --> 2:36:57.600 real kind of food food sovereignty where people are able 2:36:57.680 --> 2:37:03.000 to to get the resources themselves. And and for me, 2:37:03.160 --> 2:37:05.879 I feel like mutual aid scares a lot of people 2:37:05.959 --> 2:37:08.880 because again it really is the sort of like, um, 2:37:08.920 --> 2:37:11.120 the reason why we were able to a lot of 2:37:11.160 --> 2:37:15.039 communities were able to to survive COVID. You know, we're 2:37:15.040 --> 2:37:18.600 still doing it and it still ours so deep in 2:37:18.680 --> 2:37:21.160 it and and even like I try to tell students 2:37:21.200 --> 2:37:25.000 to and like, you know, um, mutual aid isn't just 2:37:25.320 --> 2:37:28.640 food or whatever. It's also like say your dad is 2:37:28.680 --> 2:37:33.160 a pickup truck and your neighbor needs to move, I 2:37:33.160 --> 2:37:36.200 don't know their dining room table across town like that 2:37:36.360 --> 2:37:39.920 is a form of mutual aid UM or Like there's 2:37:39.959 --> 2:37:44.840 there's so many things that especially a lot of immigrant 2:37:44.879 --> 2:37:48.880 communities that I that I work with. This this form 2:37:49.120 --> 2:37:53.440 of care, community care, you know, has existed forever, and 2:37:53.520 --> 2:37:58.960 it's just somehow elevated itself during the pandemic because, as 2:37:58.959 --> 2:38:03.000 we know, the safety net just wasn't enough. It didn't 2:38:03.040 --> 2:38:04.720 it didn't it really didn't help me, you know, it 2:38:04.760 --> 2:38:08.160 didn't really help a lot of communities, and so this 2:38:08.480 --> 2:38:13.240 system essentially kept people afloat. And now we're trying to 2:38:13.280 --> 2:38:19.600 figure out how to really create better ways to sustain 2:38:19.680 --> 2:38:22.959 it and to really create better ways to get the 2:38:23.040 --> 2:38:27.600 resources directly to communities that need them. So that's kind 2:38:27.600 --> 2:38:29.640 of where I'm adam. I'm working with other folks trying 2:38:29.640 --> 2:38:31.720 to figure out how to how to keep the sustainable 2:38:32.120 --> 2:38:34.959 and really have more agency over what kind of food 2:38:34.959 --> 2:38:37.600 and what kind of aid you want. How have people 2:38:37.840 --> 2:38:41.560 that have been needing to access the mutual aiding the food, 2:38:41.680 --> 2:38:45.800 how have they been learning about your organization? UM I 2:38:45.840 --> 2:38:48.960 think honestly, all this stuff really happened by word of mouth. 2:38:49.080 --> 2:38:52.120 I think because I was I was already part of 2:38:52.120 --> 2:38:56.360 this huge coalition UM that's part of the Sophie knows that. 2:38:56.800 --> 2:38:59.440 For all, there's a group called street Watch, there's a 2:38:59.480 --> 2:39:02.000 group called Old Crowd Game, there's a group called like 2:39:02.040 --> 2:39:05.160 There's there's all these different folks that basically are in 2:39:05.320 --> 2:39:09.080 our wide coalition. I haven't had to really advertise much 2:39:09.160 --> 2:39:12.240 like people just sort of like just kept telling others like, hey, 2:39:12.280 --> 2:39:14.800 you know, like Melissa Polos and her team were doing 2:39:14.840 --> 2:39:19.600 this and um Also as a COVID response, I created 2:39:19.640 --> 2:39:25.680 another um um uh like COVID initiative called Homemade Meals 2:39:26.520 --> 2:39:32.480 and and that is the partnership with another organization called YIS. 2:39:32.640 --> 2:39:35.680 And so as of today, I think we're close to 2:39:35.720 --> 2:39:41.400 seventy meals UM that's all community lad. Yes, so we 2:39:41.560 --> 2:39:45.520 so we the smart of UM. We essentially created a 2:39:45.600 --> 2:39:48.560 system where we uh we work with people who are 2:39:48.720 --> 2:39:52.800 who are cooking homade meals in their homes and connecting 2:39:52.800 --> 2:39:56.560 them to drivers. And so we have about six different 2:39:57.040 --> 2:40:00.240 um OR partners, so one of them is always it's 2:40:00.280 --> 2:40:05.320 the same people, Kaytown, street Watch, Covenant House. They work 2:40:05.400 --> 2:40:08.240 a lot with Homeless Youth um L a can or 2:40:08.280 --> 2:40:12.720 in skid Row UM and a bunch of other mutual 2:40:12.760 --> 2:40:15.720 aid groups in different areas of l A, so I 2:40:16.440 --> 2:40:20.560 recognize UM. At the beginning of COVID, a lot of 2:40:20.600 --> 2:40:23.560 my houseless neighbors were telling us that they were scared, 2:40:23.760 --> 2:40:27.440 like because a lot of a lot of businesses were closing, 2:40:27.560 --> 2:40:33.840 a lot of corner stores, restaurants, UM that the food 2:40:33.840 --> 2:40:37.680 access completely shut off for them during at the beginning, 2:40:37.840 --> 2:40:40.680 and I started to freak out. I was like, how 2:40:40.720 --> 2:40:44.599 we're going to get food to people? And so UM 2:40:44.760 --> 2:40:48.840 some friends who run UM basically they were kind of 2:40:48.879 --> 2:40:53.200 like a youth kind of youth focus or UM wanted 2:40:53.240 --> 2:40:56.160 to activate their you know, activate their community. They're like, hey, 2:40:56.160 --> 2:40:58.480 how can you help? What can we do? So we 2:40:58.520 --> 2:41:02.400 created this program basically that you know, figure out like, okay, 2:41:02.480 --> 2:41:05.040 well a lot of people want to have volunteer, but 2:41:05.080 --> 2:41:07.880 they can't leave home, So why don't they cooked meals 2:41:07.920 --> 2:41:11.520 at home? And then we'll just pair him with drivers 2:41:11.760 --> 2:41:14.560 we could pick it up safely, and so we just 2:41:14.600 --> 2:41:17.240 start doing that. We created this system too, and and 2:41:17.280 --> 2:41:21.280 I think we honestly, I thought we were just gonna 2:41:21.280 --> 2:41:23.560 do it for two months, but now we're what like, 2:41:23.600 --> 2:41:29.160 in nineteen months later, seventy five thousand meals, over a 2:41:29.280 --> 2:41:39.000 thousand volunteers, like it's been wild. Actually, Jamie friend dog 2:41:39.080 --> 2:41:41.200 experts she would be angry if we didn't state that. 2:41:42.160 --> 2:41:46.840 So Jamie, UM, Jamie actually is UM. It's one of 2:41:46.879 --> 2:41:50.000 our o G like like cooks, Like she started with 2:41:50.040 --> 2:41:53.120 home and made meals from the very beginning. UM, she's 2:41:53.200 --> 2:41:54.960 kind of one of our That's kind of how we 2:41:55.040 --> 2:41:57.680 know her. UM. It's because she found she found that 2:41:57.720 --> 2:42:01.720 program UM. And it's been a while, it's been it's 2:42:01.720 --> 2:42:05.160 been so amazing to to really activate so many people 2:42:05.160 --> 2:42:08.760 across l A to cook for our houses neighbors. And 2:42:08.840 --> 2:42:12.480 so I haven't even fully digested our our team hasn't 2:42:12.520 --> 2:42:14.760 even full digested that the real impact of that. But 2:42:14.800 --> 2:42:18.480 it's been seven five thousand meals UM made by the 2:42:18.480 --> 2:42:22.680 community for our for our houses neighbors. So so so 2:42:22.760 --> 2:42:25.320 that's yeah, so that I don't know, like I feel 2:42:25.320 --> 2:42:29.720 like and I truly believe they're just so much just 2:42:29.760 --> 2:42:34.039 so much power and the people and really trying to 2:42:34.080 --> 2:42:38.200 figure out ways to continue to you know, to create 2:42:38.600 --> 2:42:43.080 UM better systems where where we can redirect those resources 2:42:43.440 --> 2:42:50.240 you know, UM to us to us and UM you 2:42:50.280 --> 2:42:53.400 know like really kind kind of break down these systems 2:42:53.440 --> 2:42:56.440 where you know, because because even people were telling me, 2:42:56.560 --> 2:42:58.320 like folks who are like, you know, these sort of 2:42:58.320 --> 2:43:01.560 big institutions for institutions have been around for decades or 2:43:02.040 --> 2:43:06.600 even folks UM from like yeah, from like running food 2:43:06.600 --> 2:43:08.840 dogs since the eighties were like, you know, how are 2:43:08.840 --> 2:43:11.240 you able to move so fast? I'm like, that's mutual aid. 2:43:11.760 --> 2:43:15.680 That's like, that's mutual aid. Then our ability to not 2:43:15.800 --> 2:43:20.080 have to run through so much bureaucratic crap and red 2:43:20.120 --> 2:43:24.440 tape is a reason why we were able to, you know, 2:43:24.600 --> 2:43:30.840 to to to create such huge impact because people believed 2:43:30.879 --> 2:43:34.200 in what we did and you know, and helped support us, 2:43:34.280 --> 2:43:38.600 funded us UM and we essentially just you know, just 2:43:38.680 --> 2:43:41.280 hit the ground running. We're able to figure out what 2:43:41.360 --> 2:43:44.880 people needed on the ground and just just got it 2:43:44.920 --> 2:43:46.959 to them. That's what that's it, you know, and we'll 2:43:47.000 --> 2:43:49.880 figure out. If we don't have it, we're gonna keep 2:43:49.920 --> 2:43:52.039 you know, we'll ask around for folks who have it, 2:43:52.440 --> 2:43:56.959 Like like UM, there's a group called SILA there. It's 2:43:56.959 --> 2:44:00.879 silver like UM and my friend Cat who's one of 2:44:00.879 --> 2:44:03.960 the co founders. She they also worked with with UM 2:44:04.200 --> 2:44:08.879 with Houseless Folks and they do uh incredible work, like 2:44:09.080 --> 2:44:14.080 you know, providing showers, providing hot meals, providing reference services 2:44:14.200 --> 2:44:19.280 for folks. Um she she was great, I getting hygiene kids, 2:44:19.360 --> 2:44:21.360 and so that's that was started me to wild between 2:44:21.360 --> 2:44:23.520 each other. Like she needed hot meals, so I gave 2:44:23.520 --> 2:44:25.920 that to her on Saturdays, and then I needed like 2:44:26.000 --> 2:44:30.680 hygiene kids, and so that's kind of like the basis, yeah, correctly, 2:44:30.800 --> 2:44:32.879 like I literally will give her two hundred meals, She'll 2:44:32.879 --> 2:44:34.920 give me two hundred hygen kids. And that was like 2:44:34.959 --> 2:44:38.920 that throughout the pandemic, Like we just would share resources 2:44:38.959 --> 2:44:43.240 and people thought we were this huge org, but essentially 2:44:43.320 --> 2:44:45.920 it was just you know, literally like our friends and 2:44:45.959 --> 2:44:47.760 I talking to each other like hey, what do you 2:44:47.800 --> 2:44:50.280 have today? What do they have coming in today? And 2:44:50.320 --> 2:44:53.119 we just essentially kind of built this sort of cloud 2:44:53.320 --> 2:44:58.400 like sort of inventory. Right, so it's like Polos has 2:44:58.640 --> 2:45:02.480 a thousand meals and like Seela's got five hundred hygien kits, 2:45:02.600 --> 2:45:08.480 and like you know, street Watch as like fifteen tents 2:45:08.520 --> 2:45:10.960 and like a hundred tarps. So it's like we all 2:45:11.120 --> 2:45:13.120 were like, hey, you know, there's there's a houseless van 2:45:13.280 --> 2:45:16.360 on the corner of like Sunset or whatever that needs 2:45:16.560 --> 2:45:19.280 like blah blah blah. And so essentially just you know, 2:45:20.120 --> 2:45:22.680 just grab and go like Poles has meals and like 2:45:22.760 --> 2:45:26.200 Streetwatch has tents, and like k Towns got like the tarps. 2:45:26.240 --> 2:45:29.800 So y'all just again beautifully just sort of started to 2:45:29.879 --> 2:45:34.040 like build this sort of sort of cloud like inventory 2:45:34.080 --> 2:45:38.000 of stuff and it just worked and it's still working 2:45:39.040 --> 2:45:42.800 so um and it's to assistant, Like is what what 2:45:42.959 --> 2:45:45.400 we're bringing up or at the beginning is talking about 2:45:45.400 --> 2:45:49.039 how consistently you're able to you're able to have done 2:45:49.040 --> 2:45:51.920 this work, which is if you're an l A resident, 2:45:52.000 --> 2:45:55.720 you know that you know the city's support is never consistent. 2:45:56.680 --> 2:46:04.560 So having that consistency is so vital. Yes, yes, right, yeah, 2:46:04.640 --> 2:46:06.400 I'm not thank you know, it's it's a lot of 2:46:06.400 --> 2:46:08.840 hard work. There's so much that people don't see. Obviously, 2:46:08.840 --> 2:46:11.440 there's so many, so many things that people don't see. 2:46:11.480 --> 2:46:13.840 There's a lot of organizing behind it. Just literally a 2:46:13.840 --> 2:46:17.440 lot of community building, a lot of meetings. I think 2:46:17.440 --> 2:46:21.599 that again, like the bulk of mutual aid is relationships 2:46:21.600 --> 2:46:24.280 and trust, you know, like that that's that's really it. 2:46:24.480 --> 2:46:27.800 That's how you breathe life into your system. And it's 2:46:27.840 --> 2:46:30.440 like you know, you have to have you have to 2:46:30.480 --> 2:46:35.440 continue to like nourish your relationships, you know, between yourself 2:46:35.480 --> 2:46:38.200 and other organizers, between yourself if you're running an order 2:46:38.280 --> 2:46:42.200 between yourself and another organ UM. And and really that's 2:46:42.200 --> 2:46:44.440 how we've been able to, you know, to to reach 2:46:44.640 --> 2:46:47.880 so many people is because we focused on making sure 2:46:48.640 --> 2:46:51.840 that you know, UM, it's so easy to to burn 2:46:51.879 --> 2:46:54.160 out in this work. But again, we also have to 2:46:54.160 --> 2:46:57.519 make sure that we take care of each other. UM. 2:46:57.600 --> 2:47:00.320 And we we focused on making sure that we're checking 2:47:00.360 --> 2:47:05.800 out other two and so I, you know, it's it's 2:47:05.840 --> 2:47:08.640 hard to fully explain what how do you even teach 2:47:08.720 --> 2:47:11.480 that you know, how to how to how to properly 2:47:11.520 --> 2:47:14.200 build relationships? But I feel like that's that's such a 2:47:14.280 --> 2:47:20.320 key part of creating a really robust mutual aid network. UM. 2:47:20.360 --> 2:47:24.000 And that's at least experience that you had. Yeah, those 2:47:24.000 --> 2:47:26.200 are the work that you've done, and what you've been 2:47:26.200 --> 2:47:30.840 able to accomplish is very impressive and is is something 2:47:30.840 --> 2:47:33.320 that people lot of people can aspire to. UM. Is 2:47:33.360 --> 2:47:36.039 there any like resources online that you can point to 2:47:36.120 --> 2:47:39.920 if someone's wanting to get into this type of work, UM, 2:47:40.040 --> 2:47:43.200 or any any like any kind of like advice to 2:47:43.280 --> 2:47:45.240 get started in your own city or to like look 2:47:45.280 --> 2:47:47.360 for stuff that's doing this similar that that's like, that's 2:47:47.400 --> 2:47:55.680 doing a similar thing. Um uh wow, let's see who 2:47:55.760 --> 2:48:03.640 has um gosh, that's a really really really good question. Um. Well, well, 2:48:03.720 --> 2:48:06.240 first I hope that people have read Mutual Aid by 2:48:06.240 --> 2:48:11.000 Dean Spade. Um. That's a really good book. Um. And 2:48:11.000 --> 2:48:15.240 and from there I would read I would read The 2:48:15.320 --> 2:48:19.680 Black Panthers Social Programs. I get a lot of I 2:48:19.840 --> 2:48:24.280 get a lot of my um my inspiration from there. Um. 2:48:24.320 --> 2:48:27.240 And really that's that's really those those two things to 2:48:27.320 --> 2:48:30.440 kind of start as just sort of like your um, 2:48:30.640 --> 2:48:34.200 your primers um. And then if you want to kind 2:48:34.200 --> 2:48:39.560 of get deeper into food justice. Um uh, there's a 2:48:39.560 --> 2:48:42.800 really good book I get ready years ago. It's a 2:48:43.440 --> 2:48:46.480 I think it's literally called food Justice one on one. Okay, 2:48:47.120 --> 2:48:49.720 let me see it's really called Yeah, it's call food 2:48:49.720 --> 2:48:52.520 Justice one on one. Yeah, there's there's quite a few, 2:48:52.640 --> 2:48:55.560 but but one that's one. And then there's another. There's 2:48:55.560 --> 2:48:57.920 a one book um I read called More Than Just 2:48:58.040 --> 2:49:03.400 Food um. And then and it's it's pretty by Yeah, 2:49:03.400 --> 2:49:05.680 I'll give you guys my top five and that really 2:49:05.680 --> 2:49:10.000 can help sort of, um like shape my thinking or 2:49:10.040 --> 2:49:12.039 in food justice. So that's It's written by a guy 2:49:12.120 --> 2:49:15.959 named Garrett Broad and he essentially like kind of lays 2:49:16.000 --> 2:49:18.920 out sort of how the industrial food system kind of 2:49:18.920 --> 2:49:22.160 created this huge crisis that we're in and you know, 2:49:22.320 --> 2:49:25.080 like how there's there's really kind of an abundance of 2:49:25.120 --> 2:49:32.760 food everywhere, but obviously yes, exactly and so and and 2:49:32.760 --> 2:49:34.720 and it also kind of lays out how food justice 2:49:35.240 --> 2:49:39.120 activists UM who are in mostly low income communities of 2:49:39.160 --> 2:49:44.039 color help really build community based kind of solutions to 2:49:44.200 --> 2:49:46.200 these problems. And so that's really kind of where my 2:49:46.320 --> 2:49:51.280 thinking and my my lens comes from is because I 2:49:51.440 --> 2:49:54.959 am a child of l A, I'm able to understand 2:49:55.040 --> 2:49:59.480 what different neighborhoods need UM based on because I either 2:49:59.520 --> 2:50:03.800 grew up there, work there, have family there, you know, 2:50:03.879 --> 2:50:07.240 what's school there, or just have friends or other organizers 2:50:07.280 --> 2:50:10.160 who live there. And so say, if you know, I 2:50:10.480 --> 2:50:13.440 didn't grow up in Ball Heights, but I have friends 2:50:13.480 --> 2:50:17.400 who did. And so like, if I'm trying to build 2:50:17.440 --> 2:50:20.240 out a food program or mutual aid program and Ball Heights, 2:50:20.920 --> 2:50:22.920 I'm not going to just walk in there and be like, 2:50:22.959 --> 2:50:25.200 all right, we're gonna do it at you know, yeah, 2:50:25.280 --> 2:50:28.320 You're not gonna take over their their their saying exactly. 2:50:28.360 --> 2:50:30.600 But I think that's one thing I think I really 2:50:30.600 --> 2:50:35.120 want to for people to really especially for for for 2:50:35.160 --> 2:50:37.120 young people who want to get to food justice, Like 2:50:37.160 --> 2:50:40.320 you really have to really honestly do your research first 2:50:40.440 --> 2:50:46.280 and let the media leaders lead, um lead lead your 2:50:46.320 --> 2:50:49.760 program with you. Right. And then there's a difference between 2:50:49.800 --> 2:50:53.360 like making community connections and then trying to take over. Right, 2:50:54.400 --> 2:50:57.200 there's a very very two very different things exactly. Yeah, 2:50:57.240 --> 2:50:59.080 you don't want to be extractive, right, you don't want 2:50:59.120 --> 2:51:02.280 to be extractive. You don't want to be coming in 2:51:02.600 --> 2:51:05.240 and you know, and and and really like you know, 2:51:05.360 --> 2:51:09.760 try to like show up with like, you know, solutions 2:51:09.800 --> 2:51:12.560 where there they weren't informed at all by the community. 2:51:12.560 --> 2:51:15.879 And I keep trying to stress that, Yeah, is there 2:51:15.879 --> 2:51:20.480 anywhere that people can support you or at least follow 2:51:20.480 --> 2:51:24.120 you online to keep up with the work. Yes, Um, 2:51:24.160 --> 2:51:28.200 I'm very active on Twitter. Um it's uh, we're at 2:51:28.280 --> 2:51:31.640 Polos pantry, so it's p O l O, s um 2:51:31.680 --> 2:51:35.039 p A and t R Y. And then I'm also 2:51:35.760 --> 2:51:39.160 tweeting as myself as an organizer. It's under m E 2:51:39.440 --> 2:51:44.240 smelling music as m E l l E music um. 2:51:44.280 --> 2:51:47.520 And that actually that handled for me everywhere like my 2:51:47.600 --> 2:51:50.600 personal so I I tweet from there a lot. I 2:51:50.640 --> 2:51:52.920 tweet a lot about food, just this work I feel, 2:51:53.080 --> 2:51:56.320 and all our all our work in l A I tweet, 2:51:56.320 --> 2:51:59.480 I retweet a lot of our movem network and coalition work. 2:52:00.360 --> 2:52:02.600 Just thank you for coming on to the show to 2:52:02.640 --> 2:52:07.160 talk about through justice and the work you've been doing. Um, 2:52:07.200 --> 2:52:10.680 it's great to hear more examples of people from around 2:52:10.720 --> 2:52:13.120 the country and then hopefully you know, around the world 2:52:13.160 --> 2:52:17.360 getting involved in in this type of work. UM. Anyway, 2:52:17.400 --> 2:52:20.640 I think that it wraps up us today. You can 2:52:20.800 --> 2:52:24.240 follow this show on Twitter and Instagram at happen Here 2:52:24.240 --> 2:52:27.560 pod and cool Zone Media. UM, subscribe to the feed, 2:52:27.640 --> 2:52:30.280 leave a five star review or whatever. Anyway, that's that's 2:52:30.400 --> 2:52:33.760 that's the show. Bye bye, everybody, say say bye everybone 2:52:34.200 --> 2:52:41.720 Bye bye everyone, by everyone. It Could Happen Here is 2:52:41.720 --> 2:52:44.440 a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from 2:52:44.440 --> 2:52:47.400 cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone Media dot com, 2:52:47.520 --> 2:52:49.240 or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 2:52:49.280 --> 2:52:52.600 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 2:52:52.640 --> 2:52:55.360 find sources for It could Happen Here, updated monthly at 2:52:55.360 --> 2:52:59.400 cool zone Media dot com. Slash sources. Thanks for listening. 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