1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,240 Speaker 1: Before we start. One production note. In this episode, we 2 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: have a lot of quotes from Roald Dahl, so we 3 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,639 Speaker 1: use an actor's performance and some custom software to create 4 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: a doll like voice. Okay, onto the episode. Roald Dahl 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: has never felt smaller in his life than he does 6 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: on this particular crisp January morning. Walking into his publisher's 7 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: office on forty second Street, the manuscript tucked under his 8 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: arm feels like evidence of failure. Dahl thinks of himself 9 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: as a sophisticated author of smart, suspenseful short stories for 10 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: an elite literature loving audience. But now he's about to 11 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: submit a children's story. How could this have happened? He's 12 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: a guy who sells his stories to The New Yorker 13 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: and dates movie stars. Now he's trying to become the 14 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: next Doctor Seuss and that's best case scenario. He's basically 15 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: about to pitch an expanded bedtime story to the same 16 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: editor who worked with Ts Eliott, Albert Camu and James Baldwin. 17 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: There's a gnawing pit in Dahl's stomach. He hates himself 18 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: right now, no confidence, stride, no casual, lean against the 19 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: door frame with a clever quip today, his throat is tight, 20 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: his palms damp. A single thought plays on repeat in 21 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: his mind. Will everyone see this as what it is? 22 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: A desperate attempt to salvage his writing career? And then 23 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 1: another thought, what if Olivia and Theo and his other 24 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,199 Speaker 1: kids are the only ones who find his stories charming 25 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: and magical? But what choice does Dall have? His adult 26 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,839 Speaker 1: fiction just isn't selling anymore. It's this or give up writing. 27 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 1: He knocks on the office door of Alfred Kanoff and waits. Finally, 28 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: the door is pulled open and Doll hands over his manuscript, 29 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 1: knowing it's either his salvation or the final nail in 30 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: his coffin. Kanof doesn't fall in love with Doll's manuscript. 31 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: No one writes kids books like this one. It's just 32 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: so weird. It's filled with really dark themes in a 33 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: subversive tone. While most kids' books of the early nineteen 34 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: sixties have more wholesome, sanitized narratives, Dahl has incorporated real 35 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: childhood fears of abandonment, abuse, and loneliness. The Pot revolves 36 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: around an orphan living with his horrible ants and has 37 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: some really surreal touches. But Kannapp is at least a 38 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: little taken with the sheer breath of imagination in the story, 39 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: he decides, what the hell, He'll take a shot. They'll 40 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: publish in America first, since that's where Dolls living. The 41 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: first printing comes out in July nineteen sixty one, and 42 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: almost no one buys it. No one cares. Roll Dahl's 43 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: first stab at a children's book sells just twenty six 44 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: hundred copies in its entire first year. But remember this 45 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:38,959 Speaker 1: is Rolldalf, the same man who was told his son 46 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 1: needed a medical tube that didn't exist, so he invented one, 47 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: the same man who willed his wife back to health 48 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: after her strokes when the doctor said it was impossible. 49 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: He is not a man who accepts defeat, which is 50 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 1: why it's so out of character that for the next 51 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: few years, Roll Doll is about the least successful writer 52 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: of children's books of any author at any of the 53 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: major publishing houses. But he keeps working. He starts over 54 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: and writes another one, and then another one, and he 55 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 1: always keeps the stories just as dark and surreal as 56 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: that first one. Despite the lack of sales, he's positive 57 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: that the stories work. His own children love them, and 58 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: then in nineteen sixty seven, he convinces Kannop to take 59 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: the first children's book he wrote, the one that flopped 60 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: in America, and publish it in the UK. Maybe the 61 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: book needs to be read by British children. Kannop agrees. 62 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: The first printing in the UK completely sells out, and 63 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: so does the next printing, and the one after that, 64 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: and the one after that. It took six years, but 65 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: Dol's first stab at writing a children's novel goes from 66 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: selling just twenty six hundred copies to becoming one of 67 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: the best selling children's books in the history of the genre, 68 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: roughly twenty million copies sold. The volume of readership may 69 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: have changed, but the title never did. It's always been 70 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: called James and the Giant Peach wh This story, along 71 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: with Doll's next Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, establishes his 72 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: reputation as someone who understands that children crave more sophisticated, 73 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: complex stories than what's typically offered to them. Dahl later 74 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 1: says that the two books taught him children are far 75 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: more resilient and hungry for more adventurous stories than adults 76 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: ever give them credit for. This key insight will inform 77 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: all his subsequent classics, from the BFG to Matilda to 78 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: the Witches and on and on. Once his first two 79 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: books become these phenomenons, Dall puts the sophisticated, snobby New 80 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,840 Speaker 1: Yorker readership in his rear view. Doll gets that old 81 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 1: confidence back and quickly decides he's not going to settle 82 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 1: for just being a working children's writer. He's going to 83 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:46,119 Speaker 1: be the greatest there's ever been. At home, his wife, 84 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: Patricia Neil, is still recovering from her strokes. Thanks to 85 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 1: Doll's aggressive rehab, she's doing better than even our most 86 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: optimistic doctors thought possible. Dol can finally ease up as 87 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: her drill sergeant, but there's been a noticeable trade off. 88 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 1: All this time serving as her disciplinarian has eroded any 89 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: last romance that remained of their marriage. And this lack 90 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 1: of romance is a problem because Dall's passion for his 91 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: new work and his new success can't be contained to 92 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 1: the page. It's spilling into every corner of his life, 93 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: desperate to burst out like slivers of light through open blinds. 94 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: And that's when Felicity Crossland drews the picture for my 95 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: Hard Podcast, Imagine Entertainment and Parallax. I'm Marrion Tracy and 96 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 1: this is the Secret World of Roald Doll Episode six. 97 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: Doll is fifty six years old. Felicity, or Lyssi, as 98 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: she's known to friends and family, is thirty three. According 99 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: to writer Naia Cohen, Felicity is stunningly beautiful with striking 100 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: dark hair. She had married young and already had three 101 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 1: children by the age of twenty five. For work at 102 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: this time, Felicity is a set designer and commercial shoots. 103 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: She comes to Doll in Neelle house because Neil is 104 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: making a commercial from Maxim's Coffee. It's about all the 105 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: acting Neil can handle. As she gets her health back, I. 106 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:09,679 Speaker 2: Love Maxim, Isn't it nice? 107 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 3: My husband loves it too quick. 108 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: Aside for a very weird anecdote, when Anne Hathaway was 109 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 1: preparing for her role in a film called Eileen a 110 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 1: few years ago, she quote got a lot of inspiration 111 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: from Patricia Neil, specifically from a coffee commercial that she did. 112 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,679 Speaker 1: Hathaway continues, It's just kind of this dark, smoky sound, 113 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:29,479 Speaker 1: and I really didn't care what it was she was 114 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: talking about. She's literally selling this instant coffee. But there's 115 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 1: something almost hypnotic about it, such a weird reference, Anne, 116 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: But I totally hear it, and I totally agree. But 117 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 1: while Neil might be hypnotizing to me and Anne Hathaway 118 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: in this commercial, Doll's attention is drawn to the beautiful 119 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: young woman standing just out of fright. He quickly makes 120 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: a game plan. He decides to totally ignore her, just 121 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: as he ignored Neil at Lillian Hellman's dinner party all 122 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: those years before. That's his move. The day after the 123 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: coffee commercial, again mirroring what he did with Neil all 124 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: those years ago, he begins to pursue Felicity, to her credit, 125 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: totally rebuffs him. He's a married man, but as usual, 126 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: Doll is unfaced. He decides to orchestrate a really convoluted 127 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: plan that feels like it was ripped out of a 128 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: bad sitcom. As she's rejecting him, Felicity mentions she has 129 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: an upcoming trip to Paris. That's when Doll strikes. He 130 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: asks her, would you mind terribly picking up my favorite umbrella? 131 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: I left it in Paris at my friend Annabella's place. 132 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: Now you may remember that Annabella is Doll's actress ex girlfriend. 133 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: She's the one that Doll chose to go up on 134 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: stage in front of millions of people and accept the 135 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: oscar on his wife's behalf, and now she's going to 136 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: repay the favor. What follows is less the retrieval mission 137 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: of an umbrella and more an elaborate ambush. Felicity gets 138 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: to Paris and shows up at Annabella's apartment expecting the umbrella, 139 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: and this better be like an umbrella made out of 140 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: gold if she's slept all the way here for it. 141 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: Once she's inside, Annabella basically locks the door behind her 142 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: and delivers what amounts to a university PowerPoint lecture on 143 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: all of Doll's amazing qualities. She keeps Felicity there for hours, 144 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: trying to persuade her, and then hands her Doll's two 145 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: dollars umbrella. The most surprising twist, the plan actually works 146 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: as scripted by Doll. The umbrella becomes the mcguffin that 147 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: brings him and Felicity together. When Felicity shows up at 148 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: Dolls holding his prized umbrella, the relationship begins. The two 149 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,839 Speaker 1: lovebirds become insatiable. They see everything they share in common 150 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: is destiny Doll can't believe it when he discovers that 151 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: he and Felicity have been born a few streets away 152 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: from each other in landaff It must be destiny. I 153 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: used to be like this in relationships. I mean, everybody 154 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: is right. Your favorite order from Chinese restaurants is chicken 155 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: with broccoli. My favorite order is chicken with broccoli. It's fate. 156 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: That's how it feels for Doll right now. He writes 157 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: her tons of passionate love letters, including this one. 158 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 3: With each month and each week that goes by, the 159 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 3: desire to see you more and more often grows stronger 160 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 3: and stronger. It has become absolutely necessary that I see 161 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 3: you and touch you and talk to you every few days. 162 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: And I suppose that's. 163 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 3: What real love is all about. Love Making is another department, 164 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 3: and of course that is also necessary. But the prime necessity, 165 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 3: the first belonging, the thing that has become vital and essential, 166 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:31,439 Speaker 3: is contact. Meeting together in a room, sitting down and talking, 167 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 3: allowing the warmth to pass from one to another, the marvelous, 168 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:38,439 Speaker 3: gentle warmth of love. 169 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: It's like he's fifteen with his first girlfriend. After years 170 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 1: of no romantic feelings in his life. The floodgates have 171 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:53,199 Speaker 1: burst open, but of course they have a giant obstacle 172 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: in their path, namely, Doll is still married. Dawn Felicity 173 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: do their best to keep the affair secret from Neil 174 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,559 Speaker 1: and from all of their children, and remarkably they get 175 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: away with it for years. Whenever he wants to talk 176 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: to Felicity, Doll drives to a phone booth in town 177 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: rather than rescusing the home phone. In the end, it's 178 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: poor Tessa, the daughter who watched her brother get hit 179 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: by a car, watch her older sister succumb to measles, 180 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: and watch her mom have a stroke from the bathtub, 181 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: who eventually discovers the affair. Tessa had quit school at sixteen, 182 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: hating her boarding school almost as much as her father 183 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: famously hated his. She decided to move back home to 184 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: help her father take care of her mother, who still 185 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: needed assistance after the strokes. Late one night, it's raining terribly, 186 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: so Dall decides not to go outside and drive to 187 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,199 Speaker 1: the phone booth. He takes a chance and calls Felicity 188 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: right from the landline. Tessa overhears her father whispering, I 189 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: heard him have this phenomenally amorous conversation she remembers, which 190 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: was nothing like it had ever heard him have with 191 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 1: anyone else in my life, certainly Mom. She confronts her 192 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: father about it. He blows up at her, embarrassed and 193 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: also absolutely terrified that this will be what brings the 194 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: affair to an end. Dahl puts the sixteen year old 195 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: in an impossible spot and begs her to talk with 196 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: Felicity before she reveals the affair to her mother. Think 197 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,319 Speaker 1: about that for a second, asking your teenage kid to 198 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: step into the middle of your adult relationship drama. But 199 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: Tessa agrees to do it. She sits down with Felicity alone. 200 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: We don't know exactly what was said, but we do 201 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,319 Speaker 1: know the outcome. Tessa decides to keep her father's secret. 202 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: She carries the weight of it, a burden no teenager 203 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: should have to bear. Quick aside about Tessa for a second. 204 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: Whether it's because of all the tumult of her youth 205 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 1: or some other reason, Tessa starts to rebel during her 206 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,199 Speaker 1: teenage years much more than the other kids. She throws 207 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,839 Speaker 1: herself into a series of relationships with much older men, 208 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: often around the same age as her father. Her most 209 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: noteworthy is with the actor Peter Sellers from Doctor Strangelove 210 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: and being there. Sellers is fifty at the time of 211 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: the affair, Tessa is nineteen. But back to the story, 212 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: Tessa's willingness to keep her father's affair secret is what 213 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: allows it to continue with Gusto. In another letter to Felicity, 214 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: Doll writes. 215 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 3: Great times, marvelous times, easily the best times of my 216 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 3: own particular life. And how can I possibly thank you 217 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 3: enough for that? Only I think by loving you a 218 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 3: tremendous amount, which is what I do. 219 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: Eventually, Neil does, of course, put two and two together 220 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: about her husband and this beautiful woman he's spending time with, 221 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: and she is furious. In fact, she tells their daughter, Ophelia, 222 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: about her father's affair, which is so complicated when you 223 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: remember how devastated Neil was years earlier when Gary Cooper's 224 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: wife did the exact same thing, telling their daughter about 225 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: her father's affair with Neil. It all becomes such an 226 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: ugly scene that Felicity insists a Doll they have to 227 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:05,199 Speaker 1: break it off, which they do. Dog grows miserable without Felicity, 228 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: he can barely eat, barely work. He goes to his 229 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:13,359 Speaker 1: wife and begs her to allow him to keep seeing Felicity. 230 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: He promises he doesn't want a divorce. He wants to 231 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: stay with the children and stay in the house near 232 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,119 Speaker 1: his writing hut, but he also has to have Felicity 233 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: in his life. He writes a letter to Neil very pragmatically. 234 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 3: What I would like to do is go on living 235 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 3: with you and having you return this love without feeling 236 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 3: the least bit jealous of the fact that now and again, 237 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 3: but not very often, I meet Felicity and have lunch 238 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 3: with her. All of this is obviously a rotten deal 239 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:45,719 Speaker 3: for Felicity, and I sort of hope she won't put 240 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 3: up with it for long. There is no future in 241 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 3: it for her. I've told her long ago that there 242 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 3: is no chance of me ever leaving you. For her sake, though, 243 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 3: as well as for mine, the thing should be allowed 244 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 3: to tick over until it comes to a natural end, 245 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 3: And the best thing you can do to encourage that 246 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 3: ending is to be non jealous and normal. 247 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, just be normal, Pat. I'm just gonna 248 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: have some lynches with this beautiful woman that I'm obsessed 249 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: with and I've been having an affair with for years. 250 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: No Biggie. Neil shockingly refuses Doll's well thought out request, 251 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: and Felicity, again to her credit, refuses to see Dol 252 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: without Neil's blessing. Two long years go by without Doll 253 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: and Lissie being together. Dall continues to be a mess. 254 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: He sends Felicity all these anguished letters. Then, when he 255 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: has a hip replacement fixing an old injury from that 256 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: plane crash in the war, Neil is still not really 257 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: well enough to help with his rehab. He calls Felicity 258 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: begging for her help. Felicity agrees to come over. They 259 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: haven't seen each other in two years, and the affair 260 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 1: immediately starts up again. This time though Patricia Neil seems 261 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: to resign herself to it. Speaking of Doll's triumph with 262 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: James and the Giant pa each she says, success did 263 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: not mellow my husband. Quite the contrary. It only enforced 264 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: his conviction that although life was a two lane street, 265 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: he had the right of way. One weekend, well after 266 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: Doll's recovered from the hip surgery, Felicity's daughter Charlotte gets 267 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: in a serious car crash in Scotland. Felicity brings Doll 268 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: to Scotland with her as her daughter lays in the 269 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: hospital in a coma with a fractured skull again weirdly, 270 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: another brain injury in Doll's orbit. Felicity brought Doll not 271 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: only for emotional support, but because theo also had a 272 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: fractured skull from a car accident. Maybe Doll can help 273 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: her ask the right questions of the doctors. While Doll 274 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: and Felicity are away, Ophelia calls him at the hotel 275 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 1: to ask a question, but it's Felicity who picks up 276 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: the phone. Ophelia is crushed to learn the affair is 277 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: back on, but years later, referring to her father and Felicity, 278 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: Ophelia says, it was the biggest love story ever. I 279 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: felt hurt, but I don't know another couple who were 280 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: ever so much in love. Apparently agreeing with this sentiment, 281 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: Neil eventually decides on a divorce. She can handle it now. 282 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: She's getting her strength back, and her career has had 283 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: a major comeback, starting with her big return to acting 284 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: in a lead role in the subject was Roses, the 285 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: film adaptation of a Pulitzer Prize winning play. Here's Neil 286 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: speaking to Terry Gross about what that job did for her. 287 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 2: Oh, I was furious that I was going to have 288 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 2: to do it, and I didn't want to it all. 289 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 2: And then we started rehearsals. We rehearsed for about a week, 290 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 2: and oh, the first day I hated it. In the 291 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 2: second day and the third day I began to sort 292 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 2: of like it. Well, at the end of that film, 293 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 2: I was the most delighted woman in the world. I mean, 294 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 2: that's what I needed to begin to live again. And 295 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 2: it really it brought me back to life. 296 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: It was the film One Raves and Neil was nominated 297 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: for Best Actress again. Her career has revived and she 298 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: continues acting for many more years now. Even though Dolls 299 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 1: clearly the one who brought the divorce about, he goes 300 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 1: into a funk when it actually happens. He becomes super depressed. 301 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: Here's what he writes in his journal. 302 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,679 Speaker 3: I become easily bored in the company of adults. I 303 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 3: drink too much whiskey and wine in the evenings. I 304 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 3: eat far too much chocolate, smoke too many cigarettes. I 305 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 3: am bad tempered when my back is hurting. I do 306 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 3: not always clean my fingernails. I no longer tell my 307 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 3: children long stories at bedtime. I bet on horses and 308 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 3: lose money that way. I dislike Mother's Day and Father's 309 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 3: Day and all the other days, and all the cards 310 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 3: that people buy and send out. I hate my own birthday. 311 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 3: I'm going bald. 312 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 1: Sheesh. If that doesn't sound like a late midlife crisis, 313 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: I don't know what does. The man who spent his 314 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: twenties living like James Bond literally now confronts the dissolution 315 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: of his marriage and growing old. His hip placement seems 316 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: to add insult to injury. It forces him to reckon 317 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 1: with the distance between the adventurous, glamorous young spy he 318 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 1: once was and the aging, irritable, physically broken man he's become. 319 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: It's erotic, of course, because he's only just now finally 320 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: achieved the incredible success with his writing that he's always 321 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: dreamed of. Still, Doll finds himself face to face with 322 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: his own decline. The one thing that brings him out 323 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: of it is getting to marry Felicity. Things get dark 324 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: again a few years later. Death and illness have been 325 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: constant themes for Doll over the past couple decades, and 326 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,640 Speaker 1: here they come again. Dall takes Ophelia. On a Caribbean 327 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: vacation with Felicity and her youngest daughter, Lorena. Twenty seven 328 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: year old Lorena, a fashion editor at Harper's magazine, begins 329 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: complaining of headaches and a strange buzzing in her ear. 330 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: Doll's blood pressure immediately spikes. The symptoms are too familiar. 331 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: He summons a doctor immediately, the same urgent response he 332 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: once had for THEO for Olivia for Neil. But the 333 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: diagnosis comes back. It's just a near infection. Antibiotics are prescribed, 334 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: crisis averted, or so they think. When the vacation ends, 335 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,919 Speaker 1: Lorena flies to South Africa for a photo shoot. She 336 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: has no idea that the doctors were wrong about it 337 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: being an infection. It's actually an aggressive brain to her. 338 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: She collapses at the airport from an aneurysm. At twenty seven, 339 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 1: Felicity's daughter has passed away. Felicity is shattered, and Dahl 340 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,120 Speaker 1: he's haunted another brain trauma and someone close to him, 341 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: his stepdaughter. The statistical impossibility leaves him stupefied. According to 342 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 1: Felicity's older daughter, Charlotte, Dahl somehow blames himself as if 343 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: he were the common denominator in some terrible equation, a 344 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: walking curse. All he can do now is hold Felicity 345 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:03,400 Speaker 1: through her grief. By the time Lorena passes away, Dol 346 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,360 Speaker 1: is a world renowned children's author. So let's go back 347 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 1: a little bit to before Dahal meets Felicity. I want 348 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 1: to tell you more of the origin story of Doll 349 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: making this giant pivot to kids books. I mentioned in 350 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: our last episode that Dall finally found his voice by 351 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: changing up his intended audience. Here's what brought him to 352 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: that point. Desperation, the same emotion that's motivated pretty much 353 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: every author ever. Alfred Kanop has just rejected Doll's latest 354 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 1: stab at adult fiction with the words every writer dreads. 355 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: He was quote let down by the manuscript. Augh. Just 356 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 1: hearing that says a shiver out my back. Getting this 357 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: difficult feedback, Doll goes into a funk. His most recent 358 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: collection of short stories didn't exactly set the world on fire, 359 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: and now this. Dahl lets the gloom of the rejection 360 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: overtake him for about six weeks. Then his agent, Shila 361 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: Saint Lawrence, steps in with a lifeline. She reminds him 362 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: how his story about the Gremlins once changed his life. 363 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,959 Speaker 1: It catapulted him into Eleanor Roosevelt's living room and inspired 364 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 1: Walt Disney to throw him a party. That's what you 365 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: should be doing more of, Shila tells Doll with the 366 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: kind of conviction that only great agents can muster. You 367 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: have a natural bent in this direction and a ready 368 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: audience hungry for it. Isn't that just the dream scenario 369 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 1: for a writer With his literary agent, she sees potential 370 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: where he can. She's fighting for his future when he's 371 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: stuck mourning is past. Sheila recognizes that Doll needs a 372 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,919 Speaker 1: radical shift. Children's literature could give him unlimited freedom and 373 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 1: boundless worlds to build. Dall's initial response to his agent 374 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: when she has this brilliant, career saving insight, it's the 375 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 1: same reaction he had with Neil and Felicity when he 376 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: first met them. He completely ignores her. After decades positioning 377 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 1: himself as a sophisticated writer of adult fiction, a pivot 378 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 1: like this feels like a surrender, a step down. This 379 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: is a guy who's very sensitive about how he's perceived. 380 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 1: Remember how much he downplayed his writing of the James 381 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: Bond film making fun of it to anyone that would listen. 382 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: That same malicious pride is at work here. But then 383 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: a few days later, something shifts in Dull. Maybe it's 384 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: thinking about Olivia and Theo. Maybe it's the bleak future 385 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: he sends us he's in for if he sticks with 386 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: only writing for adults. Maybe it's all the bills stacking 387 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: up for Neil's rehab. Dall's resistance begins to crack. He 388 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: calls his agent and doesn't exactly commit, but promises he'll 389 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 1: give a children's story a try. But he's determined no 390 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: one will ever mistake this pivot for a failure or 391 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 1: retreat or feel sorry for him. His ego constructs a 392 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,360 Speaker 1: defensive fortress, and you can hear it in every interview 393 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: he ever gives on the topic, like here on BBC 394 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: one speaking to Terry Wogan. 395 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 4: There's absolutely no question to me that writing to you, 396 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 4: not fine children's folks, is far farn I think I 397 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 4: can almost prove it, because there is no rite for 398 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 4: consequence in the world. Who's ever who hasn't had a 399 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 4: go at a children's book, From tall Stoy to Graham 400 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 4: greens Down four, He's finest living novelist that are smiling. 401 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 4: You see, well, okay, because they didn't succeed. 402 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: Now, Man, I wish I could just give Doll a 403 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,880 Speaker 1: hug here, you know, tell him no one is looking 404 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: down on him for his pivot. Maybe I'm especially sensitive 405 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 1: to it because I always wanted to write movies like 406 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 1: the ones I grew up with. Instead, I built a 407 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: career writing TV and audio dramas, And I've caught myself 408 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: getting defensive about it too. For Doll, this defensiveness becomes 409 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 1: almost a refrain, a mantra. He repeats an interview after interview, 410 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:41,719 Speaker 1: as if he's still trying to convince himself of something, 411 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: even if his children's books make him more famous and 412 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 1: more successful than his adult fiction ever did. Here he 413 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 1: is on pebble Mill from the BBC. 414 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 4: To my mind, I don't any question that to write 415 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 4: a children's book of comparable quality to a fine adult 416 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 4: novel or story is more difficult. It's much more difficult 417 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 4: to achieve the children's book. 418 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: Now, why is that? Goodness? 419 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 4: Notes? 420 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: I do wonder if all this insecurity about becoming a 421 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 1: children's author actually has a positive effect on Doll's writing. 422 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: He's so scared of being perceived as doctor Seuss that 423 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: he refuses to abandon his sophisticated adult themes. The violence, 424 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: the grotesquery, the corruption, all those delicious elements from his 425 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: adult writing. He's going to transplant them right into his 426 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: children's stories, which is a big part of what makes 427 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: these books work so well. The darkness doesn't disappear, it 428 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: just finds a new home. This is such an important 429 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: lesson that so few writers seem to have gleaned. I 430 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 1: bought a ton of books to read to my kids, 431 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 1: written by authors and comedians I love who are making 432 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: their first stab or writing for children. In these books, 433 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 1: all of them totally abandoned the qualities that make me 434 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: like them so much. The only exception is fran Leebwitz, 435 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: who managed to write a kid's book that still has 436 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: all of her hilarious crankiness and cynicism. Now. While Doll 437 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: repeats over and over that writing for kids is just 438 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 1: as challenging as writing for adults, he surprisingly downplays any 439 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: deeper meaning to his work. There are very few messages 440 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: in these books of mine, he says. They are there 441 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 1: simply to turn the child into a reader of books. 442 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 1: I don't really buy that. A lot of great writers 443 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: like to downplay their intentions and messages. I remember sitting 444 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: in a small workshop when I was starting out, Aaron 445 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: Sorkin came to speak. I nervously raised my hand and 446 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: asked about the themes I thought I spotted in his 447 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: new show. He basically shot back that he's really lazy 448 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: and watches a lot of baseball on TV, and sort 449 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: of implied that I was seeing more in his script 450 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: than he intended, which may be true. I'm a lunatic 451 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 1: when it comes to his work, but it's also true 452 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 1: that writers deflect and minimize when it comes to their messages. 453 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's out of modesty, sometimes it's protecting their process, 454 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: but it's rarely the full story. With Dol, his themes 455 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 1: practically leap off the page. Take Charlie in the Chocolate Factory. 456 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,080 Speaker 1: Colin Burrow from the London Review of Books nails it 457 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: in his essay when he writes the book is rooted 458 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: in Doll's whiplash experience of moving from austere postwar England 459 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 1: to the glittering excess of nineteen fifties America, a land 460 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: seemingly flowing with chocolate and honey. The moral isn't subtle. 461 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: Charlie Bucket, the impoverished English boy who savors a single 462 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: choco bar, who keeps his appetites in check. He's the 463 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 1: one who inherits Wonka's Kingdom. Meanwhile, the gluttonous Augustus Gloop, 464 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: the spoiled Verrucos Salt, the obsessive Violet Beauregard. They're all 465 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 1: undone by their insatiable American style appetites. It's a searing 466 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: critique of unchecked commercialism wrapped in a candy coating end quote. 467 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: I totally buy this analysis. Arthur Miller was basically tackling 468 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 1: the exact same themes in Death of a Salesman, just 469 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: for a very different audience. As Burrow perfectly captures again 470 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 1: in his essay, Dahl never abandons the darkness. He just 471 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: pushes it into the shadows where it looms even larger. 472 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: His particular magic is quote his ability to repress nastiness 473 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 1: while keeping it visible. His style. Think Hemingway for kids, 474 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,199 Speaker 1: but with wrinkles and twinkles and lashings of chocolate and 475 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: those occasional words like fizzwangle or goon swoggle that make 476 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: the pros bubble and pop. Is performing a brilliant sleight 477 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: of hand. Burrow continues all that whimsy and wordplay. It's 478 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 1: the bright, colorful scarf the magician waves while something much 479 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: darker moves just out of view. The nastiness isn't gone. 480 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: It's lurking beneath the surface, swimming like a shark under 481 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: seemingly calm waters, making everything more thrilling, precisely because we 482 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: sense its presence without seeing it fully. I totally agree 483 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: with Burrow here. And here's a similar thought from the 484 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,199 Speaker 1: great screenwriter and actor Emma Thompson on Sky News on 485 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: what she appreciates about Doll. 486 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 5: It's that thing with Doll, isn't it of something that's 487 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 5: genuinely threatening, but in a kind of delicious way, On 488 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 5: Sponge and Aunt Spiker in James and the Giant Peach. 489 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,040 Speaker 5: And when I was growing up and reading Doll, I 490 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 5: just loved that sense of genuine jeopardy. And I also 491 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 5: thought that he saw human darkness very clearly and yet 492 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 5: was able to write it into children's stories and make 493 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 5: it possible for us to read them when we were 494 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 5: little and understand that it's a real thing, darkness and 495 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 5: cruelty to children. But that also all of the kids 496 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 5: that he writes about have this amazing agency. 497 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: As the book sell more and more copies, Dall's ambitions grow. 498 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: He's not just stumbling into the realm of children's life, 499 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: He's attempting to conquer it. He becomes like a general 500 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: mapping out a campaign. He thinks about every detail of 501 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: what works and what doesn't listen to how precisely he 502 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: dissects small elements to captivate his young readers. Darl rates 503 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: they love being booked. 504 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 6: They love suspense, they love action, they love ghost they 505 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 6: love the finding of treasure. They love chocolates and toys 506 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 6: and money. They love magic. 507 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: It's like he's making a recipe, and something extraordinary happens 508 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: when Doll fully embraces his new identity as children's author, 509 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: this new mask that is chosen to wear, his creativity, 510 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: which was previously kept in a somewhat tight leash in 511 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: his adult fiction, breaks totally free. It's as if all 512 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: those years writing sophisticated, controlled short stories were just warm 513 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: ups for the wild, unbridled imagination he unleashes now. Dahl 514 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: himself is a fascinating theory about this creative explosion. Remember 515 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: his plane crash in the war, The one that left 516 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: him with severe head trauma for decades. He believes the 517 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: frontal lobe damage made him less inhibited, essentially rewiring his brain. 518 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: But of course there's a downside too, as we'll hear 519 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: when we get to some of the interviews Doll gave, 520 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: especially one in particular, his unfiltered, uninhibited manner allowed his 521 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 1: bigotry to come to the surface and nearly ended his career. 522 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: There's something besides Doll's disinhibitions and his wild imagination that 523 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: I think makes him truly electric to young readers. It's 524 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: his uncanny ability to crawl inside the mind of a child. 525 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: It's not just empathy, it's something deeper. Dall has incredible 526 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: access to his own memories, and what he remembers from 527 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,719 Speaker 1: his childhood is fear. At just three years old, Dahl's 528 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: world was shattered his father and sister died within a 529 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: few weeks of each other. Imagine that he's barely old 530 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: enough to form complete sentences, and death has already become 531 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: the central character in his story. His Norwegian mother, Sophie, 532 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: was suddenly stranded in England, a foreign country for her 533 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: with five children to raise, three of her own, plus 534 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 1: two from her husband's first marriage, and as if that 535 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: weren't enough, she's eight months pregnant with another child. Most 536 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: women in this nightmare scenario would flee back to familiar territory, 537 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: As Dahl suggests in his memoir, they would have sold everything, 538 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: packed whatever remained and rushed back to Norway, where her 539 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: parents and two unmarried sisters were waiting with open arms 540 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: to help. But Sophie doesn't run. Before he died, her 541 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: husband had been adamant about one thing. Their children must 542 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: be educated in England. He believed, with almost religious fervor, 543 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 1: that England's education system was the secret alchemy that transformed 544 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: its people into a world power. And so, in a 545 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: wild act of devotion to his memory, Sophie honors his wishes. 546 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: She stays in England, a widow with a house full 547 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: of children and a country not her own, speaking in 548 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: a language she didn't grow up with. This is the 549 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 1: foundation that Doll's imagination is built on, loss, devotion, and 550 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: the ghost of a father whose absence shapes everything. After 551 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: his father's death, Dahl spent several years surrounded by his 552 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: remaining sisters, a bustling household of women who should have 553 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: been built in support system. During those dark days, you'd 554 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: think they'd band together, united by loss, and maybe they did. 555 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: Maybe behind closed doors there were moments of connect of 556 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: shared tears and whispered comforts. But I can't help wondering 557 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: if Young Roled, the only boy in this sea of women, 558 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: somehow remained a drift. Because here's a curious thing that 559 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: sort of haunts me about Doll's work. Every one of 560 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: his child heroes, with only a single exception I can 561 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 1: think of, stands completely alone in the world with no siblings. James, Charlie, Danny, Sophie, 562 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: on and on. All of them faced their monsters without 563 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: siblings by their side. This can have been accidental, This 564 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: wasn't just convenient plotting. Despite being physically surrounded by family, 565 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 1: Doll must have felt achingly alone. It's there in those 566 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: children who vanish without a trace in the BFG, swallowed 567 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: by the night while everyone else just sleeps oblivious. Dahl 568 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: understood on the deepest level what it means to be 569 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: alone in a crowded room, to feel that no one 570 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 1: truly sees you, and he poured that lonely truth into 571 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: characters who burrowed into the minds of millions of young 572 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: readers who felt exactly the same way. Dall's mother had 573 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 1: no choice but to become a fierce protector of her kids, 574 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 1: especially Dall, her beloved only son. Now it's no surprise 575 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: that Dall would act out in school. This is before 576 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: someone in doll situation would be taken to therapy three 577 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: times a week. He lost his father and sister. Of course, 578 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: he's acting out. On one particular day of really egregious misbehavior, 579 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 1: Doll and his friends receive a vicious caning. He describes 580 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: the headmaster holding up a long yellow cane which curves 581 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: around the top like a walking stick. The headmaster tells 582 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: the boys to line up against his bookcase. Dall describes 583 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: the large adult man raising the cane high above his 584 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: shoulder and bringing it down with a loud swishing sound, 585 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 1: and then there's a crack like a pistol shot as 586 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: it hits a boy's bottom. Each boy receives four strokes, 587 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: and even worse, each one is forced to watch the 588 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: other boys suffer before it's their turn. Doll goes last, 589 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: so his anticipation is off the charts. He's forced to 590 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: bend over, grabbing the floor with his hands. 591 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 3: He rates in his memoir, I was thrown forward so 592 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,240 Speaker 3: violently that if my fingers hadn't been touching the carpet, 593 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 3: I think I would have fallen flat on my face. 594 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 3: The burning stain that flooded across my buttocks were so 595 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 3: terrific that all I could do was gasp. It felt, 596 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 3: I promise you, as though someone had laid a red 597 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 3: hot poker against my flesh and was pressing down on 598 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,240 Speaker 3: it hard. The second stroke was worse than the first. 599 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,240 Speaker 3: By the time the fourth stroke was delivered, my entire 600 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,240 Speaker 3: backside seemed to be gang up in flames. That evening, 601 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 3: after my supper, my sisters had their baths before me. 602 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 3: Then it was my turn. But as I was about 603 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 3: to step into the bath tub, I heard a horrified 604 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 3: gasp from my mother behind me. 605 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 1: What's this? 606 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 3: What happened to you? She was staring at my bottom. 607 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 3: Who did this? My mother cried, tell me at once. 608 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 3: In the end, I had to tell her the whole story, 609 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,399 Speaker 3: while my sisters stood around in their nineties listening, goggle eyed. 610 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 3: My mother heard me out in silence. She asked no questions, 611 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 3: She just let me talk. And when I finished, she 612 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:10,800 Speaker 3: said to our nurse, you'll get them into bed. Nanny, 613 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 3: I'm going out. 614 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 1: Isn't that the greatest I'm going out? Of course, we 615 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 1: all know where she's headed. When she returns. Later, she 616 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 1: explains to young Doll what happened. She went to see 617 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 1: the headmaster at his home. She tore into him for 618 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 1: abusing her child, but he wasn't fazed. He condescendingly explained 619 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 1: to her that she was a guest in their country 620 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 1: and didn't understand how British schools were run. If she 621 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: didn't like his methods, she could take her kids away. 622 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: So that's exactly what she does. Sophie has all her 623 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 1: kids transferred to other schools at the end of the year. 624 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,720 Speaker 1: For Doll, all these harsh experiences as a kid become 625 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 1: fodder for his children's books. After James and the Giant 626 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 1: Peach comes Charlie in the Chocolate Factory, and then Fantastic 627 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 1: Mister Fox, and later The Twits and the BFG and 628 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: the Witches and Matilda and so many more. He becomes prolific, 629 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: and he's incredibly disciplined in his writing routine, churning out 630 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: pages a day. The only breaks he gives himself are 631 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: to write the occasional book review or to do an 632 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: interview with a journalist. It's one of these book reviews 633 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: in particular, followed by maybe the worst interview any writer 634 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,839 Speaker 1: has ever given that turns Doll's world upside down and 635 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 1: forever changes his legacy. Get Ready, We're going to get 636 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: into all of it in our next episode. The Secret 637 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,319 Speaker 1: World of Roald Dahl is produced by Imagine Audio and 638 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: Parallax Studios for iHeart Podcasts. Created and written by me 639 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:52,800 Speaker 1: Aaron Tracy, Produced by Matt Schrader, post production by wind 640 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 1: Hill Studios, with editing, scoring, and sound design by Mark 641 00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:02,800 Speaker 1: Henry Phillips. Editing by Ryan Seaton. Music by APM Executive 642 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:08,360 Speaker 1: producers Nathan Cloke, Kara Welker, Brian Grazer, Ron Howard, and 643 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 1: Aaron Tracy. Additional voice performances and recreation by Mark Henry 644 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 1: Phillips and Eleven Laps. If you enjoyed this episode, be 645 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: sure to rate and review The Secret World of Role 646 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 1: Dall on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 647 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 1: Copyright twenty twenty six Imagine Entertainment, iHeartMedia and Parallax