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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight, or.

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Speaker 1: Shoot us an email at trust Me pod at gmail

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 2: Trust me. Trust me.

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Speaker 3: I'm like a swat person. I've never lied to you.

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Speaker 4: I live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 2: don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about colts extreme

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Speaker 2: belief manipulation from two fact lovers who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 2: I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth. And today our

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Speaker 2: guest is Sarah Gorman, PhD, public health expert and author

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Speaker 2: of Denying to the Grave, Why We Ignore the Facts

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Speaker 2: that Will Save Us, as well as Coming Soonent Anatomy

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Speaker 2: of Deception. She's also the CEO and founder of Critica,

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Speaker 2: which is a community committed to making rational decisions about

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Speaker 2: health and safety. In this interview that is extremely my shit.

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Speaker 2: She's going to talk to us about science and why

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Speaker 2: the scientific method works because of its willingness to involve

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Speaker 2: how presenting evidence to people can feel like an attack,

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Speaker 2: common debunked beliefs that persist in American culture, and the

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Speaker 2: role the media plays in telling stories that stoke fear

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Speaker 2: instead of encouraging critical thinking.

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Speaker 1: She'll tell us the factors that lead people to ignore evidence,

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Speaker 1: how charismatic leaders play a large role in science denial,

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Speaker 1: and science to look out for that might indicate someone

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Speaker 1: who's not coming from a place of genuine expertise, And

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Speaker 1: how to navigate science and healthcare when this system really

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Speaker 1: does fail people so often.

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Speaker 2: So before we jump in with Sarah Megan, what's your

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Speaker 2: cultest thing of the week?

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Speaker 1: Okay, I have two, but they're both small, but they're

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Speaker 1: both culty. I went home and visited family, and I

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Speaker 1: went to one of the church meetings to see my grandma's.

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Speaker 2: And so, is this the first time since the two

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Speaker 2: x two allegations about child sexual abuse that was covered up?

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Speaker 1: M yep, so haven't been in years. It was interesting.

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Speaker 1: It was nice to see people I haven't seen in

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Speaker 1: a long time. But it's just also hard to not

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Speaker 1: take shit personally, you know, when people are like, we

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Speaker 1: just pray for people to know the right way.

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Speaker 5: I'm like, are you talking about me? I don't know anyway.

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Speaker 5: My second one.

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Speaker 1: Is that and I shouldn't be shocked this happens every year,

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Speaker 1: But every year I'm like, why is this happening? It's

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Speaker 1: so weird that Scientology gets to advertise on the Super Bowl.

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Speaker 2: Anyone be advertising on the Super Bowl. There was also

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Speaker 2: a Christianity ad and an israel ad. You know you're

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Speaker 2: expecting to see brands, yeah, not ideologies, not countries.

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Speaker 1: It's so strange every time it happens every year. It's

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Speaker 1: not like this is anything new. But every year I'm

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Speaker 1: just like, how what the hell?

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Speaker 2: Like is just to show how much fucking money they have?

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Speaker 1: Because that shit is so always it's so expensive, but

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Speaker 1: it just shows the bud light, Clydesdale's or some shit, like.

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Speaker 5: I know's this mess?

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Speaker 2: Did you see the AI one, the Christian the like

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Speaker 2: Jesus one? No, Oh, it was so funny. It was

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Speaker 2: just AI pictures of like people, I guess loving each

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Speaker 2: other and then it was like Jesus but like, clearly

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Speaker 2: they didn't have as much money as the other.

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Speaker 5: AI are fake images, interesting for sure? Indeed, Indeed, what

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Speaker 5: about you? What's the cultiest thing that happened to you

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Speaker 5: this week.

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Speaker 2: Well, just have to give my quick shout out that

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Speaker 2: I personally would like people to still please call your

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Speaker 2: reps and demand a CEA's fire because Israel is now

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Speaker 2: invading Rafa where they told everyone was safe and Gaza

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Speaker 2: and now they are bumming. Aside from that, relevant to

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Speaker 2: this episode. So my internet pal David Robert Grimes, he

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Speaker 2: is an Irish science writer, and he put this thing

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Speaker 2: out on Instagram that I thought was actually so useful

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Speaker 2: and really relevant to this episode. So I'm just gonna

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Speaker 2: list it really fast. He put out this Instagram post

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Speaker 2: that was basically identifying Charlatan's in the Science Health Wellness

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Speaker 2: arena specifically. Okay, what do they have relevant expertise? So

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Speaker 2: don't just look at their follower account, don't just look

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Speaker 2: at they're out, and don't just look at the fact

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Speaker 2: that they call themselves a doctor. Do they have an

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Speaker 2: actual degree, Do they have a degree in a completely

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Speaker 2: unrelated area? Is there a degree from an accredited university

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Speaker 2: or not?

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Speaker 5: Okay?

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Speaker 3: Two?

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Speaker 2: Are they extrapolating from limited or dubious evidence. There are

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Speaker 2: a lot of people online who will go online and

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Speaker 2: say this is science, says this when it's like there's

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Speaker 2: been one study, it's not pure reviewed, there were six

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Speaker 2: people in the study. It's never been repeated. This is

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Speaker 2: not something that we can say is established at this point.

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Speaker 2: Three are they instilling fear? Are they vaguely citing things

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Speaker 2: that are scary and bad for you and everything has

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Speaker 2: toxins in it? Four are they selling something? If they've

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Speaker 2: got a supplement, got courses they want you to buy,

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Speaker 2: be wary. That is generally something to look out for.

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Speaker 2: And five do they have prior form if they have

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Speaker 2: pushed dubious claims before, take it as a red flag.

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Speaker 2: I just thought that was so useful because it can

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Speaker 2: be so hard to parse online who's like a real

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Speaker 2: doctor or who's someone you should actually listen to and

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Speaker 2: who isn't Because there's so many people now claiming that

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Speaker 2: they have vall the keys to science and they have

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Speaker 2: the secret to cure your cancer, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: You went through a lot this year with that, like

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Speaker 1: the stem cell research and all this stuff, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I didn't with that. I had enough

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Speaker 2: of a knowledge base, like from everything we talk about

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Speaker 2: here to be able to catch it. But I think

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Speaker 2: a lot of people don't necessarily have that, especially in

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Speaker 2: a place of desperation, which so many people are in

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Speaker 2: the American healthcare system, you know, it can be a

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Speaker 2: lot harder to detect like what is genuine and what

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Speaker 2: is not online and so that's some of the stuff

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about today. But I wanted to

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Speaker 2: just give those like five things those are cool from

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Speaker 2: David Robert Crimes. Not to be confused with David Robert

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Speaker 2: Mitchell who directed it follows different persons.

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Speaker 5: Not confused, Okay, right, Sally.

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Speaker 3: Just do it.

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Speaker 2: Welcome Sarah Gorman, Thank you so much for being with us.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me so tell.

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Speaker 2: Us a little bit about your background and what got

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Speaker 2: you interested in science denial.

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Speaker 3: Well, I have a background mostly the intersection of psychology

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Speaker 3: and public health. That's really where my training is. And

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Speaker 3: I about eleven years ago, so well before the pandemic

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Speaker 3: and all of the misinformation and vaccine hesitancy that happened there,

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Speaker 3: I got really interested in the question of why people

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Speaker 3: don't believe science. And it was really in the realm

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Speaker 3: of vaccines that I got my start trying to understand

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Speaker 3: why people were rejecting some of the childhood vaccines at

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Speaker 3: that time and still are. And I realized that not

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Speaker 3: many people then were really talking about the human psychology

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Speaker 3: that's behind why people reject scientific evidence. So I endeavored

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Speaker 3: to write a book. I wrote a book about it,

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Speaker 3: Denying to the Grave, which came out in twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 3: that really looked at the psychology of science denial written large,

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Speaker 3: and I founded an organization called Critica shortly thereafter to

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Speaker 3: really look at ways that we could counteract scientific misinformation

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Speaker 3: and improve the communication of health and science and our

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Speaker 3: society in general. And then I got really interested in

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Speaker 3: some of the structural causes of misinformation and wrote another

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Speaker 3: book that's coming out in September that's all about trust

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Speaker 3: and the healthcare system.

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Speaker 2: And what's that going to be called deno yet?

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's called The Anatomy of Deception, Conspiracy Theories, distrust,

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Speaker 3: and Public Health in America.

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Speaker 2: I love, Okay, so so much to get into here,

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Speaker 2: I guess before we really get into the nitty gritty

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Speaker 2: of it, I want to mention something that we talk

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Speaker 2: about a lot in terms of people who believe in

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Speaker 2: cults or conspiracy theories or extreme belief.

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Speaker 3: Is it.

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Speaker 2: It's not that they're stupid, right when we talk about

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Speaker 2: the reason behind it. It has really nothing to do

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Speaker 2: with intelligence, is that right?

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's absolutely correct. And that is one of the

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Speaker 3: first realizations that got me interested in this field because

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Speaker 3: I did feel, and this was back in twenty thirteen,

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Speaker 3: that doctors and science communicators were mostly taking the approach

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Speaker 3: that people who were rejecting vaccines and other scientific, scientifically

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Speaker 3: recommended things were just not an understanding the science and

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Speaker 3: they just needed to be educated. So they came back

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Speaker 3: with a lot of facts and with telling people that

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Speaker 3: they don't know what they're talking about, and it didn't

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Speaker 3: work right, And of course now we know, of course

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Speaker 3: why would that work, But back then that's really the

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Speaker 3: prevailing reaction, And I thought, well, it can't be that

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Speaker 3: because a lot of the people who believe in this

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Speaker 3: stuff are actually highly educated and so and they have

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Speaker 3: access to good information and took good doctors and good

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Speaker 3: scientists to ask questions. So it can't really just be

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Speaker 3: purely an information or knowledge deficit. There must be something

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Speaker 3: else going on. And that's where I really delved into

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Speaker 3: the psychology.

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Speaker 2: It's so I know this. We talk about this all

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Speaker 2: the time, like facts don't convince people on their own.

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Speaker 2: They just don't. But it's still there's a part of

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Speaker 2: my brain that goes but you just got to tell them,

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Speaker 2: and it doesn't want to accept that that's not the way,

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Speaker 2: even though I logically know that that's not the way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, can you tell us a little bit

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Speaker 1: about why that's not the way and why our brains

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Speaker 1: are hardwired to want to kind of dig in deeper

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Speaker 1: even when facts and nay, maybe even more when the

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Speaker 1: facts are presented to us.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's important that you said that we want

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Speaker 3: to dig in even more when the facts are presented

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Speaker 3: to us. There are a couple of reasons why it

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Speaker 3: doesn't work. One of the key reasons has to do

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Speaker 3: with confirmation bias. So that the idea most people probably

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Speaker 3: have heard of this by now, but the idea is

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Speaker 3: that you look for and seek out information that confirms

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Speaker 3: what you already believe, versus being able to integrate new information.

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Speaker 3: And part of the problem here is that there may

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Speaker 3: be pieces of information or things that you believe that

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Speaker 3: are important to you, are important to your values or

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Speaker 3: your identity, and that you really think these things are true,

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Speaker 3: and it's important to you that they remain true, and

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Speaker 3: so when somebody comes at you with facts, what happens

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Speaker 3: is that it basically you basically the fear centers of

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Speaker 3: your brain get activated. The parts of your brain that

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Speaker 3: are really reasonable, like the prefrontal cortex, gets suppressed, and

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Speaker 3: you can't even really process the information that they're giving you.

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Speaker 3: All you have is this sort of fear sensor going

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Speaker 3: off that motivates you to just more and more disagree

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Speaker 3: with them, and you can actually come up with counter

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Speaker 3: arguments pretty easily in those kinds of motivated situations. So

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Speaker 3: that is really the biggest reason why facts don't work.

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Speaker 3: And there is a place for fact checking in this world.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely is the case, but there are It's obviously not

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Speaker 3: enough in many situations.

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Speaker 2: Right, my brain will not prevent me from saying facts

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Speaker 2: are attacks. It just kept saying facts are attacks over

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Speaker 2: and over again. So I'm saying it, facts are attacks.

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Speaker 2: It's a fact because it feels like an attack on

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Speaker 2: someone's identity, on their belief system, on who they are. Potentially,

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Speaker 2: if that's the only thing that's.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think you even said in brain scanned

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Speaker 1: you could see the amygdalah like light up if you

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Speaker 1: were trying to change someone's mind, which is.

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Speaker 3: Exactly if you approach them with facts that don't go

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Speaker 3: with what they believe, or even worse, if you make

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Speaker 3: them recite something that goes about against what they believe,

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Speaker 3: they they're a magdala. It gets really activated. And there's

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Speaker 3: a relationship between the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex, which

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Speaker 3: is that the amygdala, as I said, suppresses the prefrontal cortex,

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Speaker 3: and so that's why you could say facts until you're

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Speaker 3: blue in the face, but the person is actually literally

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Speaker 3: in many ways not able to process or understand what

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Speaker 3: you're saying.

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Speaker 2: And what that means with when the prefrontal cortex is

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Speaker 2: suppressed is that your critical thinking essentially is shut off.

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Speaker 2: So when you're amgdala is activated, that means your fear

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Speaker 2: kind of overtakes your rational mind.

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Speaker 3: Is that right exactly? That's your executive function, that's your rationality,

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Speaker 3: that's your ability to make sense of things that are

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Speaker 3: sort of data and fact based.

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Speaker 2: Can you just pitch science to us? Why is science good?

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Speaker 3: A case? Wow? I don't know if anyone's ever asked

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Speaker 3: me that before, but I like that. I like that

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Speaker 3: we're not just assuming things. Science is in part good

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Speaker 3: because obviously it's we need science to be able to

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Speaker 3: do things like medicine and things that actually sustain our

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Speaker 3: lives and our well being. But I think in a

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Speaker 3: more sort of philosophical sense, I think the reason why

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Speaker 3: science is important is because it creates a way of

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Speaker 3: thinking that kind of never lets you rest on assumptions,

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Speaker 3: that never lets you become too entrenched and biased. I mean,

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Speaker 3: that's when it's working. You know. Obviously there are a

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Speaker 3: lot of problems that happen in the actual practice of

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Speaker 3: science because it's practiced by human beings. But theoretically, science

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Speaker 3: is a way of thinking that allows you to never

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Speaker 3: sort of become set in a certain way of thought

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Speaker 3: that is never challenged, so you can never really be

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Speaker 3: at rest, like oh I figured everything out and have

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Speaker 3: this problem where you won't let any new information, and

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Speaker 3: it's constantly being updated, constantly reacting and circally and observationally

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Speaker 3: to the world. And there's also this really important notion

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Speaker 3: of humility that's a key part of scientific practice that

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Speaker 3: we don't know all the answers and we're still trying

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Speaker 3: to figure it out, which I think is just a

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Speaker 3: valuable human characteristic overall.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a really important point because I

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Speaker 2: think there is this common perception that people in science

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Speaker 2: are really rigid and superior and think they know everything.

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Speaker 2: But when science is being done correctly, like good science

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Speaker 2: kind of seeks to be wrong and test the theories

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Speaker 2: and make sure it's repeatable, and outside parties who are

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Speaker 2: not affiliated with that particular study have to look at

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Speaker 2: it right, like the goal is to test it and

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Speaker 2: make sure it's correct and amend it if it isn't exactly.

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Speaker 3: And I think this idea that you said that science

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Speaker 3: is the ability to be wrong. You're always looking to

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Speaker 3: be wrong, is really key because that was one of

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Speaker 3: the things that people didn't really understand about science during

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Speaker 3: the pandemic that made them really distrust the science and

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Speaker 3: health and medicine authorities because they thought, why did they

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Speaker 3: keep changing what they're saying? And to people in the

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Speaker 3: field of science, that wasn't that surprising because it was

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Speaker 3: an emerging field and there's this constant need to sort

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Speaker 3: of falsify what your findings are. That's how science learns anything.

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Speaker 3: But I think it is learning to falsify. So if

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Speaker 3: I have a hypothesis and I test it and it

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Speaker 3: holds up, now I'm just waiting for the next person

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Speaker 3: to come and test the hypothesis in a different way

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Speaker 3: and basically tell me I'm wrong. And then that's what

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Speaker 3: That's how science eventually comes to an answer. You keep

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Speaker 3: repeating things and seeing where it ends up, and Okay,

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Speaker 3: now we found out it's true in this situation, but

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Speaker 3: it's not true in this situation, or if this factor

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Speaker 3: is different, you won't get the same result. And eventually

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Speaker 3: it takes a long time you get to an understanding

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Speaker 3: of something that's a consensus. But as a scientist, when

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Speaker 3: you do an early experiment on something, you don't really

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Speaker 3: expect that people are just going to fall in line

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Speaker 3: and find the same thing over and over and over again.

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Speaker 3: That's very rare, with the exception of maybe something like

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Speaker 3: figuring out that cigarettes caused cancer, which it was just

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Speaker 3: really obvious and repeatable finding, but there are most things

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Speaker 3: in science where it doesn't really proceed that way. So

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Speaker 3: that falsifiability is kind of this central component of the

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Speaker 3: scientific process. That's how you get from one experiment to

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Speaker 3: the next. And so then you would expect in a

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Speaker 3: situation like COVID that there would be changes happening as

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Speaker 3: people did more studies, but the general public didn't really

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Speaker 3: feel comfortable with that for understandable reasons, and also maybe

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Speaker 3: didn't have the background to understand that that's really how

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Speaker 3: science does proceed in most cases.

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Speaker 1: Is there anything that you've ever held, like super dear

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Speaker 1: to yourself scientifically that you've had to be like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: that wasn't real. I know you use I watched your

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Speaker 1: Ted talkie use the example of not liking the ballet,

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Speaker 1: and then you held it as part of your identity

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Speaker 1: and then you finally were like final, I'll go a

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Speaker 1: few times, but is there anything scientifically that you've had

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Speaker 1: to be like, Oh, I was wrong?

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Speaker 3: I think, I mean, maybe it wasn't held so strongly.

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Speaker 3: But the one thing I can think of is I

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Speaker 3: was really fascinated by this idea of the backfire effect

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Speaker 3: that people continue to talk about. But it's this idea

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Speaker 3: that if you give people more information that they'll just

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Speaker 3: get they'll just believe misinformation more so they'll just be

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Speaker 3: more and more entrenched and the false belief, and that

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Speaker 3: is something we already just talked about. But the reality

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Speaker 3: is is that that it's hard to reproduce that finding,

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Speaker 3: so it's not wrong it definitely exists, but it's still

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Speaker 3: not entirely clear sort of when, when it happens, why

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Speaker 3: it happens, what situations would you would find that in.

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Speaker 3: So it's a little bit more murky than I originally thought.

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Speaker 3: And I remember feeling like when I read the first

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Speaker 3: study that was questioning it, like a little bit annoyed

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Speaker 3: and angry because I thought that this was such an

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Speaker 3: established thing, and how come we're finding something different now?

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Speaker 3: And this is something that I talked about a lot.

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Speaker 3: So I think that is one example. But you know,

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Speaker 3: I got on the bandwagon and I was like, no,

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Speaker 3: this is how this goes cool.

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Speaker 5: That's malleable, that's tope of you all.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Can you give us a few examples? I

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Speaker 2: actually have more science questions, but I feel like I'll

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Speaker 2: save them for later because maybe not everyone is as

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Speaker 2: into it as I am. Can you use as a

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Speaker 2: few examples of widely held beliefs within the culture that

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Speaker 2: huge amounts of evidence showed to not be true?

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Speaker 3: Okay, I think the most obvious one. And I'm not

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Speaker 3: sure if this is a failure of knowledge belief for

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Speaker 3: something else, but a lot of people believe that an

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Speaker 3: airplace lane is less safe than a car, and it's

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Speaker 3: actually the opposite that you know, being in a car

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Speaker 3: is much higher risk of getting into an accident, and

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Speaker 3: especially in the car with me, especially if you're especially

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Speaker 3: if you're here in your Jersey yeah, on the New

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Speaker 3: Jersey turn Fike people people. And that is kind of

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Speaker 3: a motivated belief because people don't want to be afraid

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Speaker 3: of their cars because they need to go in their

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Speaker 3: cars every day, and so it's easy to ignore the

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Speaker 3: actual dangers. The reason why they're so afraid of you know,

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Speaker 3: not everyone, but some people are so afraid of airplanes,

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Speaker 3: even though those accidents are relatively rare, is that they

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Speaker 3: get highly televised and highly covered by the media. So

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Speaker 3: there's this thing called the availability bias, where if you

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Speaker 3: can imagine it, it seems like a larger risk. If

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Speaker 3: it's very present in your brain and you're usually in

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Speaker 3: an imagistic kind of way, like you've seen pictures of

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Speaker 3: it or videos, it's much more. It's much scarier. And

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Speaker 3: the other one I talk a little bit about in

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Speaker 3: the book is and this isn't necessarily a belief, but

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Speaker 3: it's more something that people ignore, is that your risk

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Speaker 3: of falling in the shower is like ten thousand times

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Speaker 3: greater than like your risk of getting into an airplane crasher,

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Speaker 3: like a lot of other things that people are really

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Speaker 3: afraid of, but it's another thing that people have to

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Speaker 3: do every day and kind of not think about it.

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Speaker 3: So most people are not afraid of falling in the shower,

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Speaker 3: but the risk involved is actually pretty high.

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Speaker 1: That's a really interesting point because I've always thought like

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Speaker 1: there's two things that get Maya magdala and I think

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Speaker 1: most humans going, and it's fire and heights, you know,

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Speaker 1: And if you can show me those images on TV,

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Speaker 1: I'm petrified Mia megdala gets overtaken. I'm like, gone, done

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Speaker 1: for I hate flying. I didn't used to and now

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Speaker 1: I do whatever. But you're saying it also is just

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Speaker 1: because we have to do the other things more that

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Speaker 1: we're like, oh, it's fine, that's so interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I can imagine, like sensational imagery, I imagine has

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Speaker 2: a stronger effect, especially if the media is covering it

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Speaker 2: a lot, like no news story is going to be

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Speaker 2: like yeah, but also if like mall by the shower, if.

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Speaker 1: We have to get in a car every day, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna just like downplay it. Yeah, I mean, it's fine

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Speaker 1: to get in your car, but it's interesting.

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Speaker 2: It's terrifying. I mean, if I think about it too hard,

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Speaker 2: I will be too scared to drive it.

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Speaker 3: It all has to do with what people deem to

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Speaker 3: be acceptable risk, and that's in some ways that's very

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Speaker 3: socially determined. You know, it has a practical determination, which

403
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Speaker 3: is I have to do this thing, and there's a

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Speaker 3: social determination which everybody drives their car. You know, I

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Speaker 3: don't see people staying home or taking the train just

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Speaker 3: because they're afraid of getting into a car accident, and

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Speaker 3: so it's an acceptable risk even if I know there's

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Speaker 3: a risk involved. I think the other one I talk

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Speaker 3: about in the book that you know tends to be

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Speaker 3: more political, is the misperception some people have that have

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Speaker 3: gone in their home makes them safe for when there's

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Speaker 3: statistics very clearly show that a gun in the home

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Speaker 3: is much more likely to kill you or another member

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Speaker 3: of your household. And that one is complicated because it

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Speaker 3: does have some you know, availability bias problems, Like you know,

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Speaker 3: people do see things on the news about break ins

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Speaker 3: and robberies and they're actually armed. Robberies are extremely rare

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Speaker 3: in most parts of the country, but it also has

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Speaker 3: to do with like identity politics and things that people

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Speaker 3: are hearing in their particular social circles about guns, and

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Speaker 3: even some you know, kind of propaganda that people hear

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Speaker 3: about guns that go into that calculation as well.

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Speaker 2: Can you talk a little bit about the role that

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Speaker 2: media plays in this and how detrimental or potentially helpful

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Speaker 2: it can be for educating people on what isn't isn't

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Speaker 2: risky or helpful?

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Speaker 3: You know. I think it's interesting because there are some

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Speaker 3: areas where there's been you know, a lot of advocacy

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Speaker 3: for changing the way media covers certain topics. So the

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Speaker 3: one that comes to mind immediately has to do with suicide.

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Speaker 3: There are a lot of guidelines. You know, it was

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Speaker 3: discovered that there was this possibility that suicides could basically

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Speaker 3: be contagious in some situations, and there were there were

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Speaker 3: a lot of guidelines that came out for journalists about

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Speaker 3: how you cover suicide so as not to sort of

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Speaker 3: ignite that, and they're followed not terribly consistently in my experience,

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Speaker 3: but it is better than it was before, and it

438
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 3: does have a really big role in actually preventing suicide clusters,

439
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 3: which are not again, not that common, but it is

440
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 3: a risk that you don't want to take especially but

441
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,400
Speaker 3: I think exactly yeah, and that is the age group

442
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 3: that is generally you're concerned about. But I think there's

443
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,640
Speaker 3: also been a little bit of a movement towards how

444
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,680
Speaker 3: you cover school shootings or mass shootings. You know, don't

445
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 3: give the person a name, you know, to kind of

446
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 3: with this idea that it could be it could impact

447
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 3: the copycat rate you know, somebody else doing the same thing.

448
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,399
Speaker 3: So there have been some movements like that that that

449
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,760
Speaker 3: I think are are you know, based in good data

450
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 3: that show that there are better practices to make sure

451
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 3: that we're you know, protecting the population's health. But I

452
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 3: think for things like I was just talking about, like

453
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 3: this availability bias issue, that is a huge problem that

454
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 3: I don't see addressed very much. I do think that

455
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,880
Speaker 3: the media could could do a better job of sort

456
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 3: of contextualizing risk, Like if they are talking about a

457
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 3: plane crash, they could explain a little bit more about

458
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 3: how common they are. I don't see that very much

459
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 3: in those kinds of articles. And I also think that

460
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 3: there's another big problem and sometimes in the media around

461
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 3: making it seem like there's two sides to a debate

462
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 3: where where there really isn't a debate. So this comes

463
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 3: up a lot in like in climate change when they

464
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 3: when they'll show some climate change proponent versus somebody who

465
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 3: doesn't believe in it, and they're both scientists, and it

466
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 3: looks like it's a really like a one to one debate.

467
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,199
Speaker 3: But in reality, as we know, the consensus on climate

468
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,680
Speaker 3: change among scientists is overwhelming and that's not really representative

469
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 3: of the field's views on it. So I think those

470
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 3: are a few areas where I think there could be

471
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 3: some improvement.

472
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 2: Can you walk us through the factors that you and

473
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 2: your father, who you wrote your book with, outline in

474
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 2: terms of why people ignore facts?

475
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 4: Sure.

476
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 3: So the book was six chapters, and each one sort

477
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 3: of looked at a different psychological phenomenon that really contributes

478
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 3: to science denial. The first three chapters were meant to

479
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:55,440
Speaker 3: be more about social factors and then after that more

480
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 3: individual factors. Because one of the things I not is

481
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 3: going into writing the book is that the writing that

482
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 3: did exist about individuals about psychology and science denial was

483
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 3: focused on individuals about risk perception and things like that.

484
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 3: But I didn't see much they talked about group psychology

485
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 3: or you know, phenomena like that. So we looked at

486
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 3: the first time. I don't remember if I'm saying in

487
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 3: the right order, but I think in general we had

488
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 3: conspiracy theories, charismatic leaders, because I noticed that different science

489
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 3: denial movements tended to have a leader at the top.

490
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 3: And we know from psychology literature that group psychology results

491
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 3: in a lot of things like different ways of perceiving

492
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 3: risk that are really important to the way to the

493
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 3: extent to which people believe science or not. And we

494
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 3: looked at confirmation bias, which I just talked about avoidance

495
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:55,360
Speaker 3: of uncertainty so that a lot of people will recognize

496
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 3: that one from the pandemic, and how much people didn't

497
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 3: want they wanted the answers filling the ignorance gap, which

498
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 3: has to do similarly with you know, when when we

499
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 3: don't know everything, and how do we do how do

500
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 3: we figure out what to believe when there isn't enough information?

501
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 3: We're not very good at that. And then risk perception,

502
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 3: which is just really complicated, has been a subject of

503
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 3: psychological study for a very very long time. So just

504
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,439
Speaker 3: trying to put that in context of how does our

505
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 3: skewed risk perception, because most people have very skewed risk

506
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 3: perception about most things affect our ability to understand and

507
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 3: analyze scientific data.

508
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 2: And so that one is just basically like if I'm

509
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 2: understanding correctly, tell me if I'm not. It's hard to

510
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:47,880
Speaker 2: understand numbers because, yeah, like the risk of something being

511
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 2: very very high or very very low, it doesn't it's

512
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 2: like hard for us to understand what that actually looks like,

513
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 2: what that actually means.

514
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it jaws a little bit with what I

515
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 3: just said about avoidance of uncertainty, because we don't want

516
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 3: to hear that there's any risk, you know, we want

517
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 3: to know what's going to happen and that it's going

518
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 3: to be okay if we decide, you know, for example,

519
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 3: from making a decision to do like a medical treatment

520
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 3: or get a vaccine or something like that. And so

521
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's kind of rejected on like a

522
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 3: on a principle basis, like you don't want there to

523
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 3: be any risk. But also there is a problem with

524
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 3: our brain's ability to deal with percentages and statistics. It's

525
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 3: very very abstract and it's hard for people to conceptualize

526
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,880
Speaker 3: what it actually means in that moment when they're trying

527
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 3: to make a decision.

528
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 2: Right, So, vaccines could be of any kind. I'm not

529
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 2: just talking about COVID. Like, a vaccine could be incredibly

530
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 2: safe and the risk could be very very low, but

531
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 2: because there are a few examples of that, they're being

532
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 2: side effects many for many people, that gets translated into well,

533
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 2: there could be side effects, so it's not worth it, right.

534
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 3: And oftentimes, you know, this is another thing where sometimes

535
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 3: the media doesn't do a great job, is because they

536
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 3: like to tell stories, which you know, I understand it's

537
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,199
Speaker 3: very important to tell stories, but sometimes those stories are

538
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 3: totally out of context. So and people also, what they're

539
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 3: not sometimes taking into account is the fact that people

540
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 3: respond much more strongly to stories and statistics. So you

541
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 3: could come back at them with all these statistics, but

542
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 3: once they've already heard the story, it's like forget it.

543
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 3: It's a huge barrier. They've already made up their mind.

544
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 3: They can imagine it, like I was talking about earlier.

545
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 3: So what happens is people will hear a story about

546
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 3: somebody who had some kind of reaction to a vaccine,

547
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 3: and the problem is the risk is never zero it's

548
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 3: always one in something you know, a huge number. But again,

549
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 3: like the ability to conceptualize that is, what does that

550
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 3: mean for me in this moment? If there's any chance,

551
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 3: and especially if you're heightened fear about something, you're not

552
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 3: going to accept it.

553
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 2: It's almost like we need to figure out how to

554
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 2: tell really good, compelling stories about safety. But safety is

555
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 2: so boring. It's not sale, it's not in the sky

556
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 2: and on fire. Yeah, how can you make safety sexy?

557
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 2: I guess that's like the one hundred million dollars question.

558
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 3: Yes, I think that's an open question. I don't think

559
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 3: anyone has figured out how to do that very well.

560
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 3: But and part of the problem is, like we do

561
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 3: need to communicate about statistics because that's more accurate. But again,

562
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 3: like that's that's not very that doesn't really grab people

563
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 3: A and B. It's hard to understand.

564
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: So going back to the first factor on your list,

565
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 2: which is charismatic leaders. Obviously this is a topic that

566
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 2: we talk about a lot on this podcast. What does

567
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 2: this look like in the realm of science denial? What

568
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 2: kinds of figures are we talking about?

569
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 3: It's not that different from charismatic leaders in any other

570
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 3: realm they had. You know, we really were able to

571
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 3: isolate some key characteristics. In the first edition of the book,

572
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 3: we didn't have Donald Trump because it came out right

573
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 3: before the election. That we did put we did put

574
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 3: him in for the twenty twenty one edition in case.

575
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 3: That was the first question we got asked by journalist,

576
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 3: is Donald Trump charismatic leader? And you know, there are

577
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 3: basically some characteristics that are very common. In a way,

578
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 3: it gets it gets very boring when you when you

579
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 3: really strip it down to what are what are the

580
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 3: characteristics that are common across all of these charismatic leaders,

581
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 3: because you realize they're all really following a formula. It's

582
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 3: really amazing how how in lockstep everyone's presentation is with

583
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 3: this formula. And it really is. It's a few things.

584
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 3: One of them is being able. So the charismatic leader

585
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 3: presents him or herself as somebody who is sort of

586
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 3: a lone wolf, that they've been ostracized by some mainstream

587
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 3: group and that they're really sort of a victim. That

588
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 3: is very common. And the example I would use is

589
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 3: Andrew Wakefield, who was the gasterondrologist who published the paper

590
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 3: that was retracted that saying that vaccine the MMR, the

591
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 3: measles and rebella vaccine causes autism and children. And it

592
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 3: turned out there was all kinds of fraud. His data

593
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 3: were very poor and not it shouldn't have been published anyway.

594
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 3: But then also there was all this fraud and he

595
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 3: was taking money from injury lawyers and all this stuff,

596
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 3: so it was completely invalidated. But of course that perception

597
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 3: has hung around, and a lot of it is because

598
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 3: he himself is really a charismatic leader. So he always

599
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 3: says that he lost his license in the UK he

600
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 3: moved to the US, but he always talks about that

601
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 3: as like the regulators are coming after me. They're just

602
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 3: saying this because they don't want to let out the

603
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 3: truth about what I'm saying. So you know, all that

604
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 3: sense of he's being really persecuted is part of it.

605
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 3: And then there's really this US versus them. They really

606
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 3: drum up the sense of us versus them. They have

607
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,959
Speaker 3: an amazing ability usually to create a lot of cohesion

608
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 3: in the group, which is, you know, in and of itself,

609
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 3: a group cohesion is not a bad thing, but they

610
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 3: also create a very strong sense of the others. The outgroup,

611
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 3: and so there becomes this very clear sense of in

612
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 3: group outgroup, which can you know, cause people to feel

613
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 3: very polarized, and then they you know, they really much

614
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 3: more vehemently reject the alternative viewpoints because it's coming from

615
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 3: the outgroup, and so, you know, I think they you know,

616
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 3: they also tend to have a very the presentation style

617
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 3: is very usually very engaging, you know, very kind of

618
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 3: rousing and making a lot of eye contact, direct eye

619
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 3: contact with people, and so you know, those are some

620
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 3: of the things that really define charismatic leaders. And it's

621
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 3: sort of the same across across different areas that they

622
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 3: that they have these characteristics.

623
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: It's very unfortunate because that's also the description of like

624
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: a hero, someone who's like on the forefront of something

625
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 1: and like uncovering something.

626
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, so so how do you tell the difference?

627
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess that is something Well, one of the

628
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 3: things we talked about in the book was how do

629
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 3: you know when something as a conspiracy theory versus an

630
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 3: actual conspiracy, Because you know, to some extent, it's not

631
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 3: crazy to be looking at, you know, looking out for

632
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 3: things that could be a conspiracy, because there are conspiracies

633
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 3: and it's better to know about it than not to

634
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 3: know about it. And you know, there are some things

635
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 3: that can be a little fishy about conspiracy theories, but

636
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 3: I think in terms of telling the difference between a

637
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 3: charismatic leader and you know, somebody who's being genuine in science,

638
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 3: I don't know how well this would hold for other fields,

639
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 3: but in science it is true that the person who's

640
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 3: being genuine is going to qualify what they say a

641
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 3: lot more so the absoluteness of what the person is

642
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 3: saying is it should be. It's not necessarily, but it

643
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 3: should be a tip off that maybe something is going

644
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 3: on here. And also the sort of vehemence which with

645
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 3: which they describe this kind of persecution should be a

646
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 3: tip off too. You should never know, ever assume take

647
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 3: that at phase value. It is possible that some that

648
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 3: a scientific hero could be being persecuted by the government.

649
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 3: That could definitely happen, but you have to look into it,

650
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 3: you have to question it, and you have to be

651
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 3: very very cautious if they're making a lot of absolute,

652
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 3: you know, non qualified.

653
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 2: Statements, right, it's that certainty, that definitiveness, that black and

654
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 2: white thinking, which, of course I'm sure there are examples

655
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 2: of people sounding like that who are in the right,

656
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,839
Speaker 2: But generally, I think if you are a good actor,

657
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 2: you will want your hypotheses to be tested on some

658
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 2: level and proven correct in an objectively, you know, verifiable way, right, hopefully, hopefully.

659
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 3: I think there are a lot of things in the

660
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 3: book that are sort of like the two sides of

661
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 3: the coin, because the other thing I struggled with was

662
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:52,800
Speaker 3: this thing about groups, you know, like the in the

663
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 3: context of science denial, groups are very can be very

664
00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 3: damaging because what happens is that you when you in

665
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 3: a group, you kind of let go of your individual

666
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 3: responsibility for looking into something. You just assume, Okay, someone

667
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 3: else looked into it, right, I'll just go along with

668
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 3: what the group said. But if you're in a charismatic

669
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 3: leader's anti science group, then they've looked into it, but

670
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,359
Speaker 3: they're coming to the wrong conclusions. And so there's all

671
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 3: these people who are getting pulled in who would who

672
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 3: would have maybe individually made a different decision, but now

673
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 3: that they're in the group, they're like, Oh, I'm not

674
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 3: going to vaccinate my kids, and I'm not even going

675
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 3: to look into it because so and so in the

676
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 3: group said, nobody's doing it in this group, and so,

677
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 3: you know, it made me feel like, oh my god,

678
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 3: groups are like this horrible thing, like why do human

679
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 3: beings even even create? You know, And then I notize, like,

680
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 3: of course groups are incredibly you know, forming groups and

681
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 3: societies and cooperation and all of that obviously is like

682
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 3: immensely important to even just like human survival. And there's

683
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 3: a there's a benefit to relying on other people's expertise

684
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 3: because you can't you can't possibly know everything, but at

685
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 3: least you can make better decision if you can have

686
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 3: people around you who do know. So that's a good thing,

687
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 3: but it can be really nefarious. So there are a

688
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 3: lot of things in the book where I was like,

689
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,879
Speaker 3: this is this is a good instinct, but it's being

690
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 3: totally perverted into this negative thing.

691
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's such it's human nature to want

692
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 2: to conform to the group, to feel safer conforming to

693
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,919
Speaker 2: the group. It's very psychologically difficult to be the sole

694
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 2: person raising your hand and saying actually, though, it makes

695
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 2: me want to find a way to make it like

696
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 2: more accepted and more normal to question when there is

697
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 2: that much group cohesion and like to you know, I

698
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 2: guess in a healthy group and we've talked to We've

699
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 2: talked to various people about that. I'm trying to remember

700
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 2: his name. He talked about healthy leadership, healthy group leadership,

701
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 2: Jay van Babel, who I love, and that's a great episode,

702
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 2: but he talks about how like you can have a

703
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 2: healthy group with healthy leadership, but that leader has to

704
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 2: like create an environment where the voices of people who

705
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,800
Speaker 2: are not the leader are valued and they get to

706
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 2: speak first, and there's there is this sort of culture

707
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 2: of listening to different opinions. But if your leadership is

708
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:13,800
Speaker 2: not does not have that goal, then of course that

709
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 2: makes it very difficult to do that.

710
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think there probably are some things that

711
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 3: you could do if you're in a group to try

712
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 3: to determine, like how open is this group to different opinions,

713
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 3: Like does the leader solicit feedback? How often do they

714
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 3: do that, how do they do it? Do they do

715
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 3: it in a way that would actually make someone feel

716
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 3: comfortable to say something different? Does anyone you know, this

717
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,879
Speaker 3: may not happen, so this might not be the best test,

718
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 3: but you could look around and say, does anyone ever

719
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 3: come forth with a different opinion on anything like maybe

720
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 3: it's something small. If there's absolutely no different opinions about

721
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 3: anything whatsoever, that should be a warning sign. It doesn't

722
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,320
Speaker 3: necessarily mean that it's an nefarious group, but you should

723
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 3: definitely pay attention to that and investigate because that seems,

724
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 3: you know, that does seem to be more in the

725
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 3: in the camp of a group that's a little bit

726
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 3: more psychologically coercive.

727
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 2: Right, going back to the science how can we trust

728
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 2: science question? So you there was a term that you

729
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 2: used which was data massage and why this can contribute

730
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 2: to some of the confusion around scientific research. Can you

731
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 2: talk about that.

732
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, so there is this phenomenon, you know, in statistics,

733
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 3: and this is part of the problem with statistics is

734
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 3: that it's not an absolute science, and there are ways

735
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 3: to do things to your data to make it look

736
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 3: a certain way. And it's not necessarily you know, it

737
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 3: doesn't have to be outright fraud, but there there are

738
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,800
Speaker 3: It could be the case that there's something you know,

739
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 3: you ran a certain test on a certain sample that

740
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 3: made you get a different result than that you may

741
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 3: have gotten otherwise, and sometimes it's innocent and you didn't

742
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 3: realize and usually that stuff does get corrected. You know,

743
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 3: someone else will say something, or they'll do another study,

744
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 3: or they'll do the analysis differently and say that this

745
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 3: gives me a different result. And that's why it's important

746
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 3: to be as transparent and as possible with your methodology.

747
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 3: And I think you know, pre registering studies so that

748
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 3: it's out there what you said you were going to

749
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 3: do from the beginning, that you weren't just like changing

750
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 3: things every time you didn't get a result you didn't like,

751
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 3: and that you even it's good to make raw data available.

752
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 3: I think that's important. It doesn't always happen, but I

753
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 3: think that's important too, But you know, just to prevent

754
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 3: some of these things. And I think science is moving

755
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 3: towards like better ways to make sure that people aren't

756
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 3: like doing analyzes that look better and just kind of

757
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 3: moving on from there. But there is this phenomenon where

758
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 3: it is possible to get a result that's not really

759
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 3: the result because of something you did with your analysis

760
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,320
Speaker 3: or with the statistics. So I know it's a little vague,

761
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 3: it's hard to explain, but there is that kind of

762
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 3: phenomenon and I think I think that's one of the

763
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 3: things that sometimes come out when there's repeat experiments, and

764
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 3: it's hard for people to understand because they think it

765
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 3: just means that, like scientists are doing fraudulent things all

766
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 3: the time.

767
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, It's has been my understanding that the person who

768
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 1: discovers something or the person who believes in something should

769
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 1: not be the person testing.

770
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 2: It because they're going to want a specific result. But

771
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 2: I guess, like in theory that science should be providing

772
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 2: the checks and balances of peer review and reproducibility rate.

773
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, it's interesting. My dad actually has

774
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 3: a good story about this from the days when he

775
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 3: was doing psychiatric research. He was his research was really

776
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 3: on psychopharmacology, so he was like looked at as somebody

777
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 3: who really looked at the drugs in psychiatry and really

778
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,879
Speaker 3: was able to show that they were effective. But then

779
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 3: at some point, just through his career, he started to realize,

780
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 3: you know, there's this therapy called cognitive behavioral therapy. This

781
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 3: was back when it wasn't a big thing yet, and

782
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 3: it seems like it's really effective. And I think, and

783
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 3: he decided, I think we should test it against medication

784
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 3: and see what's more effective. And he but he didn't

785
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 3: just stop there. He said not only am I going

786
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 3: to look at this, but I'm going to bring the

787
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:12,800
Speaker 3: people who created cognitive behavioral therapy into this study so

788
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,360
Speaker 3: that there's I can't do anything like that with the

789
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:19,360
Speaker 3: statistics that would make it look like because he was

790
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,840
Speaker 3: worried that he had a lot of bias and confirmation

791
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 3: bias and all these other things that could unintentionally create

792
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,359
Speaker 3: a situation that wouldn't be that wouldn't be as fair

793
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 3: if he just did it with his labs. So they

794
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 3: did the experiment together and they and in this this

795
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 3: particular experiment, the cognitive behavioral therapy was more effective than medication.

796
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 3: I think it was for depression. So that that was

797
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 3: just I mean, that's just one of my favorite stories

798
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 3: that he tells because it's hard to do that, but

799
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 3: that's an example of something, you know, that where he

800
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 3: very intentionally thought about what would happen if he just

801
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:57,280
Speaker 3: did it by himself or with his lab of people

802
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 3: who were all in the same research field as he was,

803
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:04,760
Speaker 3: versus consciously bringing in another perspective that they probably didn't

804
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 3: really agree to at the beginning of the study. And

805
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:09,840
Speaker 3: after that he did really because he was like, I

806
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 3: want this study to tell me what to believe about

807
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 3: this therapy, and he was really convinced. You after that study,

808
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:17,800
Speaker 3: He's like, we did it. We designed the best study possible,

809
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 3: We had the best collaboration of the top people in

810
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 3: that area, and it won out. And like, I believe

811
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,359
Speaker 3: in it, and I'm going to recommend it to people

812
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 3: as a key thing that they should do.

813
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 2: Sorry, just for my own understanding, he brought it. Who

814
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 2: did he bring in? Because I thought it sounded like

815
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 2: you said, the people who invented CBT.

816
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, the people who were studying it at that time,

817
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 3: that you know, the people who were really developing and

818
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 3: studying it. That's so dope because that was like the

819
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 3: other camp.

820
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I see, I see.

821
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 5: I was just going to say.

822
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 1: The thing about brains and what we're discussing and all

823
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 1: of these things is that scientists are curious people and

824
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 1: most people aren't. And we go back to that Amygdalah

825
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 1: kind of ease and not wanting to hear any new

826
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:07,800
Speaker 1: information and all of these things. It just feels like

827
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 1: we as normal humans just all want this cheat and

828
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 1: the charismatic leader and cults we find, you know, they

829
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 1: just offer us the group. It all offers us this

830
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 1: amygdalah kind of like and we do have to live

831
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 1: a little bit more in the uncertainty and the questioning

832
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,320
Speaker 1: and the oh, my deeply held belief it is not

833
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,280
Speaker 1: my identity, and it's it's a different it's a different

834
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 1: world than people who are not scientists are used to

835
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 1: living in.

836
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 2: In my opinion, like the average person, it's hard to

837
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 2: accept the scientific uncertainty.

838
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I see what you're saying about,

839
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 3: like maybe it feels like an easy way out, like

840
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 3: why wouldn't we want to engauge the parts of our

841
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 3: brain that do thinking? And I think, I mean, I

842
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:58,399
Speaker 3: think that's largely true.

843
00:43:58,440 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 5: There's totally.

844
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 3: To say to that. So one is like there's a

845
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 3: whole field of psychology that looks at heuristics, you know, shortcuts,

846
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:12,879
Speaker 3: because people are cognitively absolutely overwhelmed, and especially now, there's

847
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 3: just too much, there's too many stimuli, and the brain

848
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 3: is in part responsible for organizing cutting out some of that,

849
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 3: taking out the noise, you know, it really organizes it

850
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 3: for you and makes you see like, Okay, I don't

851
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:30,800
Speaker 3: need to pay attention to that because the group already

852
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 3: decided that that's why I can move on and so

853
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 3: that preserving your brain power for things that you really

854
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 3: need to do. And that's partially why we live in communities,

855
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 3: because people have different knowledge bases and we utilize that collectively.

856
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 3: Otherwise we would have to you would have to do

857
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 3: surgery on yourself, you would have to learn how to

858
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 3: you know, had to cut wood, you would have to

859
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:54,279
Speaker 3: learn how to make a fire, You'd have to do

860
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:58,840
Speaker 3: everything yourself. And so I think that that's sort of

861
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 3: an important function of the brain. That's and in many

862
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 3: of these cases, the issue is that the brain is

863
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 3: doing something helpful, but it's taking it a little bit

864
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 3: too far right. That's what I That's what I've come

865
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 3: to decide about that. The other thing I would say

866
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 3: is that it's interesting that you bring up curiosity because

867
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 3: there is some there's a line of research that that

868
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 3: sees that curios scientific curiosity can actually cut through political polarization.

869
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 3: So what I mean by that is that if you

870
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 3: if you have somebody who's very high on the curiosity spectrum,

871
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 3: like there's a scale for this, and they're high on

872
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 3: this curiosity spectrum, and you give them a piece of

873
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 3: news that that's that you say, this is breaking science.

874
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 3: But it actually disagrees with what their political bent is.

875
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 3: So it might be breaking science showing that climate change

876
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 3: is real in some way, they are they accept it

877
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,760
Speaker 3: more than if they are low on the curiosity scale,

878
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 3: or if you give them something that's not new and breaking,

879
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 3: or if you know, even if it disagrees with their politics.

880
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 3: So the idea being that scientific curiosity, if people have

881
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 3: high levels of scientific curiosity, I mean, maybe it's not

882
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:13,320
Speaker 3: that surprising they can basically be more open minded and

883
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 3: put aside their identity politics in certain situations to be

884
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 3: open to learning new information. And I think that this

885
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 3: is one of the many missed opportunities in our science curriculum.

886
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 3: There's a little bit in the book about the problems

887
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 3: with the sort of K twelve science curriculum, and I

888
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 3: think this is one of the many problems that we

889
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:36,800
Speaker 3: don't nurture scientific curiosity. A lot of kids hate science.

890
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 3: They think it's boring. They're scared of it because they

891
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 3: have to memorize all this stuff and it's hard and

892
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 3: they don't know how to get the right answer and

893
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:46,839
Speaker 3: they feel like they can't do it right and it's

894
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 3: just really drudgery. Yeah, So you know, I think we're

895
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 3: missing an opportunity to make science can be truly exciting

896
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 3: and wonderful. But I think in our race to make

897
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:00,800
Speaker 3: sure our kids know every element on the periodic table,

898
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 3: completely missing this opportunity to create these citizens who can

899
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 3: then be more open minded.

900
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 2: That is such a good point. You're so right. When

901
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 2: I think about my science classes that I took as

902
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 2: a kid, it's just memorization, it's just chemistry, it's just numbers.

903
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 2: It's just like boring stuff. It didn't seem interesting or engaging.

904
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,800
Speaker 2: Whereas to me now, I am so interested in science.

905
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 2: It's one of my favorite things to read about and

906
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 2: learn about. But I had to get there on my

907
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 2: own because there were, like you know, there'd be entry

908
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 2: points based on social psychology stuff or medical stuff in

909
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 2: my family that I'd start learning about and being like, wow,

910
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 2: this this this, look at these advances, look at these advants.

911
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 2: But these ones are fake and these ones are Charlatan's,

912
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 2: you know. But that curiosity was never something that was

913
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 2: offered to me in school. And if it had been,

914
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 2: I wonder what path my life would have taken. I

915
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 2: don't know, you know, I actually did a I spoke

916
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 2: in a high school class two days ago that my

917
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,800
Speaker 2: friend teaches, which is he's doing a whole course on

918
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 2: critical thinking and having the students pick a topic from

919
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 2: the culture in general and find the way identify all

920
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:14,839
Speaker 2: the ways that there was faulty thinking involved, so they

921
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 2: have to figure it out for themselves and hunt for Okay,

922
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:22,399
Speaker 2: where were people accepting a narrative without questioning it when

923
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 2: the evidence said otherwise? And I was so fascinated by

924
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 2: the questions the students were asking me, like they were

925
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 2: so engaged on it, most of them, And I was

926
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:32,879
Speaker 2: jealous as hell.

927
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 5: That's fun.

928
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 2: It's fun. Yes, he made it into and they're like

929
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 2: doing it. It's like about conspiracy theories and cults. Like

930
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 2: he's tying it to stuff that feels exciting and isn't

931
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 2: just like numbers on a page. And I wish we

932
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 2: had curriculum like that. Yeah, everywhere science was hell.

933
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I think there's a couple of things we've

934
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 3: been trying to get a critical We've been trying to

935
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:56,919
Speaker 3: get more into this field, but it's hard. The entry

936
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:01,760
Speaker 3: points are hard because there's so much regulation and everything

937
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 3: around the science, around any curriculum, and science has a

938
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,320
Speaker 3: lot of standards and I think that's important, but it

939
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 3: can be maybe excessively rigid, because then there's no room

940
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:14,880
Speaker 3: for things like that or like just a class that

941
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:16,880
Speaker 3: was just like how do we know? Things? Like what

942
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 3: if we just had a class on that and it

943
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 3: was kind of a combination of science and philosophy. You know,

944
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 3: I don't know where that would fit, but I think

945
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 3: that would be really useful. And then there's also space

946
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 3: to question like why is it that the curriculum is,

947
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 3: like why does it have to be biology, chemistry, and physics?

948
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 3: Like like does it have to be that? Could it

949
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 3: be that and something else? Could it be less of

950
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 3: some of those things and adding in something else? I

951
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 3: think I think there's a lot of rigidity with the

952
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 3: way that we approach the science curriculum. And it is

953
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 3: true that, you know, I understand that those are foundational

954
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 3: for a lot of other fields of science, but we

955
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 3: are we may also be creating a false impression for

956
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 3: people about what science really is, because there's so many

957
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 3: oads that you can take in science, including the social sciences,

958
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:05,839
Speaker 3: which is not covered at all, And you wonder about

959
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:08,879
Speaker 3: what what would happen to people's careers, like how many

960
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 3: more women for example, might go into like a like

961
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 3: exposed to a social science field at a younger age

962
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:18,880
Speaker 3: and actually take that path or or whatever it is.

963
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 3: You know how many just generally people that wouldn't have

964
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,280
Speaker 3: been in that field are going to now be opened

965
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 3: up to being in that field or at least being

966
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 3: interested in it.

967
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:39,240
Speaker 2: So I'm I've started to do some videos about like healthcare,

968
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 2: injustice and places where our system has failed us, both

969
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 2: on a political level but also within like healthcare systems.

970
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:51,320
Speaker 2: I just did a video about something that I learned

971
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,879
Speaker 2: because my brother had anoxic brain injury, so he has

972
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 2: lost his short term memory, and I've learned so many

973
00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 2: different things along that way through that problem, one of

974
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 2: which was that the American Academy Neurology released guidelines saying

975
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 2: people with severe brain injuries shouldn't be taken off of

976
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 2: life support for twenty eight days because there's so much

977
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 2: more evidence now that there's more recovery possible than previously thought.

978
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 2: But I see you doctors are still frequently frequently recommending

979
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 2: taking people off of life support after three or five days,

980
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 2: and I keep hearing stories about people who were saying

981
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 2: they wanted us to take them off and then he

982
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 2: woke up a few days later like, I just keep

983
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 2: hearing that story. How do we talk about stuff like

984
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:36,760
Speaker 2: that where it is a real problem, it's a genuine problem,

985
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 2: and there's evidence that it's a problem, but also it's

986
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 2: going to undermine faith in you know, doctors or science

987
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 2: in a different way, Like how do you navigate stuff

988
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 2: like that?

989
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:47,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I just as I said, I just wrote

990
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 3: this whole book about help trust in the healthcare system,

991
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:52,879
Speaker 3: and a lot of what I talk about is how

992
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:58,400
Speaker 3: the system is what fails people, not necessarily individual practitioners,

993
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:02,240
Speaker 3: you know, and people are really respond to this overwhelming

994
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:05,719
Speaker 3: feeling that they've been abandoned by even by the whole

995
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 3: social safety net in this country in general, with a

996
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:16,240
Speaker 3: real feeling of distrust toward that includes individual practitioners, doctors, nurses,

997
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:20,279
Speaker 3: et cetera, and individual hospitals and things like that. And

998
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 3: I think I struggled a little bit as I wrote

999
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 3: the book because I also interviewed dozens and dozens of

1000
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 3: people who felt that they had lost their trust in

1001
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 3: the system and heard real stories about real problems that

1002
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 3: people were having, like they have a chronic illness that's

1003
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 3: just totally medicine just has no idea and you know,

1004
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 3: and they and they feel a little bit dismissed, understandably

1005
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 3: because because there's not really much anyone can do for them.

1006
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:53,840
Speaker 3: But at the same time, like doctors aren't necessarily trained

1007
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 3: to how you interact with somebody who has an illness

1008
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 3: that you don't know that you don't have an immediate

1009
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:02,879
Speaker 3: treatment path for. And then there was also the fact

1010
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:04,720
Speaker 3: of people just saying, you know, like I don't trust

1011
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:08,879
Speaker 3: the pharmaceutical industry, you know, look at what happened with opioids,

1012
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:13,319
Speaker 3: And I was like, yeah, like, yeah, I agree with you, Yeah,

1013
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:16,920
Speaker 3: I agree with you. And I don't have the answer

1014
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:19,719
Speaker 3: to that, because it is true that you know that

1015
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 3: sometimes the pharmaceutical companies are are too close to the

1016
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 3: FDA or the doctors do take money from them, and

1017
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:27,320
Speaker 3: that doesn't there are lots of studies that show that

1018
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 3: does influence what they decide to do treatment wise. I mean,

1019
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 3: the best you can do. I think what's very important

1020
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:36,520
Speaker 3: is how you frame some of these problems. And I

1021
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:38,400
Speaker 3: think this comes back to the same thing I was

1022
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:42,280
Speaker 3: talking about earlier. So this issue of like guidelines getting

1023
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 3: changed and then the practice not catching up with it

1024
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 3: is pervasive in medicine, and it's another psychological phenomenon because

1025
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 3: it's again again about changing behavior, which we know is

1026
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 3: very hard. And I think on a system level, there

1027
00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 3: needs to be more reform around these guidelines are released.

1028
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 3: There needs to be some kind of guidance on Okay,

1029
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:07,920
Speaker 3: how are we going to help doctors actually change what

1030
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 3: they do versus just releasing it and saying, go do it,

1031
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 3: because then no one does it. So what hospitals have

1032
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 3: to do, what a physician practices have to do? What

1033
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:21,879
Speaker 3: are the steps, you know, to get someone from doing

1034
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 3: something totally different to doing this other thing? Is it

1035
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 3: all at once? Do they do ease them into it?

1036
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,239
Speaker 3: You know, like what kind of communication happens. There's no

1037
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 3: planning around any of that at the moment. So I

1038
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 3: think that on a structural level, that's what needs to

1039
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:39,359
Speaker 3: be done. On like a personal level, if you're talking

1040
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 3: about this in your worry that you're going to stoke

1041
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 3: mistrust in the healthcare system, I think the important thing

1042
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:49,879
Speaker 3: to emphasize is just that the humanity of the fact

1043
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 3: that book they've been doing it this way for twenty

1044
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:56,319
Speaker 3: years or whatever, and then overnight this is usually how

1045
00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 3: this happens. They were given different guidelines and they need

1046
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:03,239
Speaker 3: time to update, you know, what their what their beliefs are,

1047
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:05,880
Speaker 3: how they're going to do this, what they're going to recommend,

1048
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 3: how it jeals with things that they learned before that

1049
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:13,319
Speaker 3: may have been different. And so I think that's really

1050
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 3: the only way to make it not seem like doctors

1051
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 3: are just like they don't care. They're just ignoring the

1052
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 3: evidence space.

1053
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 2: And so much of it does seem systemic because you know,

1054
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 2: I was talking to I'm like getting I'm very I'm

1055
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 2: like getting involved in the brain injury world as an advocate,

1056
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:34,319
Speaker 2: and I was talking to whatever an association, and they

1057
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 2: were saying, there really isn't actually like a way to

1058
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 2: disseminate this information in a centralized way so that everybody

1059
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 2: gets it. So so many doctors actually don't even have

1060
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 2: the information. So which just brings me back to the

1061
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 2: same thing I keep thinking these days, which is that

1062
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 2: we just need a healthcare system that is not disjointed

1063
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:56,759
Speaker 2: and that is actually like cohesive and connected and communicating

1064
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 2: to people. And you know, because so much these problems

1065
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:04,439
Speaker 2: happen because there just isn't communication and there isn't it's yeah,

1066
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 2: it's just a totally broken, fragmented system.

1067
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:09,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think you know, we had this concern

1068
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:12,560
Speaker 3: when the new rs V vaccines came out because the

1069
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:16,840
Speaker 3: the one for people sixty and older, there was this

1070
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 3: recommendation that you should have this vaccine in consultation with

1071
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 3: your healthcare provider with a system of shared decision making.

1072
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,279
Speaker 3: And so everybody's like done, you know, we gave the

1073
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 3: recommendation and then we had critical We're like, do are

1074
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 3: doctors going to actually know what to do with that?

1075
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:34,440
Speaker 5: Inassion?

1076
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:36,400
Speaker 3: Right? But do they know what that means? Like what

1077
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:39,200
Speaker 3: should they say? What should they do? Like what are

1078
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 3: the concerns? Like you haven't given any information or scaffolding

1079
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:47,840
Speaker 3: around that recommendation, and what it's going to do is

1080
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:51,160
Speaker 3: in reality, make a lot of people just not even

1081
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 3: bother because it's not a clear recommendation and maybe they

1082
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:57,360
Speaker 3: don't have a doctor, or maybe they can't get into

1083
00:56:57,480 --> 00:56:59,759
Speaker 3: their doctor for six months, or you know, there's all

1084
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 3: these other structural.

1085
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,920
Speaker 5: People are using their doctor every year like in the fifties.

1086
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 3: It's yeah, people, I think we're really stuck. You know.

1087
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:10,239
Speaker 3: I think in many ways, especially around some of the

1088
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:13,359
Speaker 3: communication the field is really stuck in an old way

1089
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:15,839
Speaker 3: of doing things, like when you have like a broadcast

1090
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 3: and there's no social media and there's nothing else going on,

1091
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 3: right and people are going to their doctor every year.

1092
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 3: So that's that's a big part of the problem.

1093
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 1: It reminds me of like back in the day when

1094
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 1: the states weren't connected with their police departments, so like

1095
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 1: when they would finally communicate, they'd be like, you have

1096
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 1: the same serial killer we have, and then they'd like,

1097
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 1: you know, collect evidence, and it like all came together. Yeah,

1098
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 1: it kind of just it seems like it's a little

1099
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 1: bit offline right now as far as communication goes. And

1100
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 1: then once it starts, everybody starts talking in a hopefully

1101
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 1: very egoists way, will be yeah, we'll.

1102
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 2: Be on our way, and that's yeah, And I wonder,

1103
00:57:57,440 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 2: whatever this we're really in the weeds on healthcare stuff,

1104
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 2: you guys, sorry listeners, but I love the shit. I

1105
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:06,720
Speaker 2: wonder also about doctors, Like I don't know if anything

1106
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 2: like this exists, but training for healthcare professionals about being

1107
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 2: flexible and being able to update their practices and change

1108
00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 2: their minds. I mean, even just in some of my

1109
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:22,240
Speaker 2: brother's therapies, one of his therapists, his rehabilitation therapists, said

1110
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 2: flat out, don't do this thing when my mom and

1111
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:29,080
Speaker 2: I know for a fact there's like extensive research now

1112
00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 2: saying it's actually very good. I don't whatever. Specifics don't matter,

1113
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:35,960
Speaker 2: but it is interesting because it's clearly what she learned

1114
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:38,560
Speaker 2: when she was in school, and it's not true in

1115
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 2: any way anymore, and we have to be there to

1116
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 2: advocate for it. So anyway, it's just all really hard

1117
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:43,120
Speaker 2: to navicate.

1118
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 3: It is. Yeah, And I think that's definitely true. And

1119
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:48,760
Speaker 3: one of the things that we've talked about and deny

1120
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 3: to The Brave and elsewhere is that people like doctors

1121
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:57,000
Speaker 3: and other professionals have biases or conflicts of interest that

1122
00:58:57,120 --> 00:59:01,040
Speaker 3: aren't always just financial. So sometimes somebody has built their

1123
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 3: reputation or they've even just always done it a certain way,

1124
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 3: and that creates sort of a conflict when they're confronted

1125
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 3: with a different way of doing things and it has

1126
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:12,760
Speaker 3: nothing to do with money. And there's a good book

1127
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 3: called The Mimmography Wars which talks a little bit about

1128
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 3: this stuff in the context of breast cancer screening and

1129
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:23,360
Speaker 3: saying that their doctors sometimes fall into two camps. There's

1130
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:27,440
Speaker 3: like the better safe than sorry and then there's the

1131
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 3: first do no harm and those are sort of two

1132
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:33,919
Speaker 3: different ways of approaching medicine, which is like better safe

1133
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 3: than sorry is like let's just screen everyone you know

1134
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 3: and just see what happens, and then first do no

1135
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:44,240
Speaker 3: harm with like a recognition that there's maybe negative outcomes

1136
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:46,960
Speaker 3: of screening when you didn't need to screen and you're

1137
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:49,760
Speaker 3: going to get a false positive. And like people, it's

1138
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 3: really a value that people hold whether they fall into

1139
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 3: one or the other of these camps, and so it's

1140
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 3: not about money, it's not about anything like that. It's

1141
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:03,480
Speaker 3: just about that they really do it a certain way

1142
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 3: because of how they value, how they hold their values

1143
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 3: about practicing medicine, and that's going to determine the decisions

1144
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 3: they make in a situation that's not one hundred percent

1145
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 3: clear what you should do in every instance.

1146
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:18,360
Speaker 2: So, if it's such a big part of human nature

1147
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:24,280
Speaker 2: to accept bad information or have difficulty accepting new information,

1148
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:27,960
Speaker 2: what can we do to make ourselves better thinking this.

1149
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:31,760
Speaker 4: Is the one hundred million dollar question one hundred millions,

1150
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 4: as you said, as you said, yeah, So we tried

1151
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:38,320
Speaker 4: to outline some potential solutions in the book because I

1152
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:40,040
Speaker 4: do and I do this in my new book too,

1153
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 4: because even though these are really like societies Wigan problems,

1154
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:47,200
Speaker 4: I feel like it's it's not good to just leave.

1155
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:49,600
Speaker 3: People with a description of the problem. I think it's

1156
01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 3: just too depressing, and there are things we can do,

1157
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 3: so I mean, I think in terms of science denial,

1158
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:00,800
Speaker 3: some of the things I've talked about with forming science

1159
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:06,840
Speaker 3: education would be really key. And instilling a sense of curiosity,

1160
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:11,240
Speaker 3: whether that's through training for science teachers or just through

1161
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:15,680
Speaker 3: different kinds of curriculum programming, I think would make a

1162
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 3: big difference. And of course when you catch people when

1163
01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:21,600
Speaker 3: they're younger, that's always better because they haven't formed all

1164
01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:25,440
Speaker 3: their opinions yet, and to that degree, you know, also

1165
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:28,880
Speaker 3: media literacy, digital literacy, all those things. I know some

1166
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:32,600
Speaker 3: states are making that an obligation now, but I think

1167
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:34,560
Speaker 3: the more we have of that the better. So I

1168
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:38,400
Speaker 3: think that's absolutely key. And I do think that people

1169
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:42,600
Speaker 3: should be exposed to statistics, specifically at a young age,

1170
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 3: and that they should really grow up with it, because

1171
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:49,200
Speaker 3: it's not actually that hard, you know, like compared to calculus,

1172
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:52,800
Speaker 3: statistics is not that hard, you know, even I could

1173
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:57,160
Speaker 3: do it, and I think that for some reason it

1174
01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:00,480
Speaker 3: kind of gets left out, not really entirely sure why

1175
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:03,200
Speaker 3: I'm not. I don't have like the brains of math

1176
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:08,080
Speaker 3: curriculum setters to consult for this, but it does get

1177
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:09,840
Speaker 3: kind of left out. But it's it's like a life

1178
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 3: skill to understand statistics. So I think that's that's like

1179
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:15,880
Speaker 3: sort of at a at a basic level, at a

1180
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:18,200
Speaker 3: like at a young age, some of the interventions that

1181
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:21,400
Speaker 3: could be taken. And then I also think that there

1182
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:25,920
Speaker 3: just needs to be more general awareness and hopefully books

1183
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:28,760
Speaker 3: like hours do this about some of these factors, like

1184
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:32,640
Speaker 3: especially things like charismatic leaders, understanding what kind of group

1185
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:37,160
Speaker 3: you're in, questioning yourself about how you formed a certain belief,

1186
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:40,840
Speaker 3: like really tracing what did I think, read, who did

1187
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:43,120
Speaker 3: I consult, Like what are the steps that I took

1188
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:44,960
Speaker 3: that led me to this place where I think this?

1189
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:49,920
Speaker 3: People don't you know that's slowing down? Actually it sounds simple,

1190
01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:52,440
Speaker 3: but it makes a really big difference. So I think

1191
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:55,960
Speaker 3: some of those things for the general public could be

1192
01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:59,440
Speaker 3: really helpful. And then I think, you know, they're some

1193
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:01,480
Speaker 3: of the things we talked about for the end here

1194
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:10,760
Speaker 3: about doctor communication recognition of difficulty about change, and being

1195
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:14,280
Speaker 3: able to identify conflicts of interests that aren't financial that

1196
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:17,160
Speaker 3: may be affecting their behavior. I was actually asked to

1197
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:20,680
Speaker 3: give a keynote at the Society for Pediatric Anesthesia this

1198
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:23,200
Speaker 3: last year in twenty twenty three. And so when they

1199
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:25,520
Speaker 3: first contact me, I was like, why, I don't know

1200
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:29,960
Speaker 3: anything about pediatric anesthesia. Why are they contacting me? And

1201
01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:32,480
Speaker 3: they said they really know. I thought this was really

1202
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:36,320
Speaker 3: forward thinking. They really noticed that that just when the

1203
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:40,919
Speaker 3: guidelines change, people really struggle, and a lot of people

1204
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:43,240
Speaker 3: don't come along for the changes, even though they are

1205
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:46,200
Speaker 3: evidence based. And they wanted to know what light I

1206
01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:50,040
Speaker 3: could shed on how to do that better, why that happens,

1207
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:54,360
Speaker 3: and how to improve that. And people were really wanted,

1208
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:56,160
Speaker 3: you know, really wanted to know what do we do,

1209
01:03:57,040 --> 01:03:59,360
Speaker 3: either for themselves or people that they knew in their

1210
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:03,240
Speaker 3: practices that we're having trouble changing their behaviors and their minds.

1211
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:07,320
Speaker 3: So I think embedding that, if it could be embedded

1212
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:09,720
Speaker 3: in medical education, that would be great at the very

1213
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:13,680
Speaker 3: least in like continuing medical education. How to be flexible,

1214
01:04:13,880 --> 01:04:16,840
Speaker 3: like you said, how to identify conflicts of interests that

1215
01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:21,200
Speaker 3: aren't financial and a little bit more coordination for sure

1216
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:23,680
Speaker 3: about how guide new guidelines are released.

1217
01:04:23,920 --> 01:04:27,280
Speaker 1: What about what's the importance of like taking small steps

1218
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:28,480
Speaker 1: and changing.

1219
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:31,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's key. I did talk about that

1220
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:36,160
Speaker 3: when I presented, because one of the things that people

1221
01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:39,120
Speaker 3: struggle with is making a change that's too big all

1222
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:42,240
Speaker 3: at once. So for example, like everyone's familiar with this.

1223
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:44,440
Speaker 3: If you say, if you go from I've never been

1224
01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:46,160
Speaker 3: to the gym in my life, too, I'm going to

1225
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:48,480
Speaker 3: run six days a week, like four miles a day.

1226
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:50,680
Speaker 3: You can't do that, Like that's just you're just not

1227
01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 3: going to do it. I mean you probably physically can't.

1228
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:58,320
Speaker 3: But also but beyond that, like from a psychological perspective,

1229
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:00,920
Speaker 3: it's too overwhelming, Like no one can do that. So

1230
01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:03,320
Speaker 3: how do you prepare yourself for a change. It's usually

1231
01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:06,160
Speaker 3: not the case that these guidelines come out out of nowhere.

1232
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:11,160
Speaker 3: There's there's always talk in the field, and presumably hopefully

1233
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:14,320
Speaker 3: doctors are keeping up with the literature in their field

1234
01:05:15,360 --> 01:05:18,680
Speaker 3: and that there's some sense that something might be changing.

1235
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:21,160
Speaker 3: They might not have all the details, but usually people

1236
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:24,560
Speaker 3: kind of know something's coming, and so making a change

1237
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 3: plan like sit down and write it out, like what

1238
01:05:26,920 --> 01:05:30,240
Speaker 3: am I going to do on day negative ten? You know,

1239
01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:32,680
Speaker 3: ten days before it comes out, two days before it

1240
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:34,480
Speaker 3: comes out, the day it comes out, Like, what are

1241
01:05:34,520 --> 01:05:37,440
Speaker 3: the steps I'm going to take toward making this change?

1242
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:39,280
Speaker 3: Like I don't know what they have to be. Whether

1243
01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:42,160
Speaker 3: it's asking someone else what they're going to do or

1244
01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:46,480
Speaker 3: how they're going to make the change, or making sure

1245
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:49,560
Speaker 3: that you block time on your calendar to read the guideline. Whatever,

1246
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:52,440
Speaker 3: you know, it doesn't matter. But I think the idea

1247
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:56,920
Speaker 3: is that you parse it out because otherwise it's overwhelming,

1248
01:05:57,520 --> 01:06:00,240
Speaker 3: especially if it's something that really conflicts with what you've

1249
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:01,200
Speaker 3: been taught before.

1250
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:05,480
Speaker 2: And for the average person, I mean, what would a

1251
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:07,680
Speaker 2: small step look like? I mean would it be like

1252
01:06:08,240 --> 01:06:10,160
Speaker 2: you know, maybe you don't ask yourself, am I in

1253
01:06:10,200 --> 01:06:12,880
Speaker 2: the wrong group yet? But you ask yourself, well, why

1254
01:06:13,720 --> 01:06:16,920
Speaker 2: did I go along with that restaurant when I didn't

1255
01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:18,840
Speaker 2: really want to? And like you start to sort of

1256
01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:21,600
Speaker 2: question why you're doing things in a very small way,

1257
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:24,960
Speaker 2: like because it's very scary to descend.

1258
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:25,200
Speaker 5: From a group.

1259
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:27,600
Speaker 2: It's very scary to leave a group, or you know,

1260
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:31,120
Speaker 2: speak up. I wonder about like you know, what a

1261
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:33,479
Speaker 2: what a regular person might do to kind of build

1262
01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:35,280
Speaker 2: their tolerance to that.

1263
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:38,440
Speaker 3: I think it's the same kind of advice. Start slow,

1264
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:41,960
Speaker 3: and the first thing you can do is just decide.

1265
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:44,840
Speaker 3: And I think it's good to actually write this stuff down,

1266
01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:47,000
Speaker 3: you know, to make it official for yourself. And you're

1267
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:48,880
Speaker 3: going to do this, maybe you're going to spend a

1268
01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:51,320
Speaker 3: week just observing what goes on in a group, Like

1269
01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:53,400
Speaker 3: maybe you're not going to say much. You're just going

1270
01:06:53,480 --> 01:06:56,520
Speaker 3: to see or make many decisions about something. You're just

1271
01:06:56,600 --> 01:06:58,640
Speaker 3: going to see, like and ask yourself some of those

1272
01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:02,640
Speaker 3: questions where there need to disagreems. Did anyone give feedback?

1273
01:07:02,720 --> 01:07:05,120
Speaker 3: How is that feedback solicited? What was the response to

1274
01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:08,720
Speaker 3: that feedback? Is there anything that came up that that

1275
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:12,360
Speaker 3: I felt like wasn't wasn't addressed and it felt shady

1276
01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:15,280
Speaker 3: or something, you know, like get yourself like a list

1277
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:16,920
Speaker 3: of those kinds of things that you want to observe

1278
01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:19,120
Speaker 3: if you're if you're feeling like nervous that there might

1279
01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:22,280
Speaker 3: be something going on here. And then after that, you know,

1280
01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:25,400
Speaker 3: you can do things like maybe you have a family member,

1281
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:28,120
Speaker 3: a friend, a spouse, whatever, who's not in the group,

1282
01:07:28,560 --> 01:07:31,120
Speaker 3: but who's who knows something about or who's observed you

1283
01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:33,520
Speaker 3: in the group, and you can ask them questions, what

1284
01:07:33,600 --> 01:07:35,240
Speaker 3: do you think of the group? How do you think?

1285
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:37,480
Speaker 3: What do you think about my behavior when I'm with

1286
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:41,240
Speaker 3: that group? Is it different? Is it the same? You know,

1287
01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:43,960
Speaker 3: those kinds of things. I think parsing it out again

1288
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:48,680
Speaker 3: because it's true in the I mean, it seems obvious again,

1289
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:50,680
Speaker 3: but in the in the sort of like the change

1290
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:55,320
Speaker 3: psychology literature, which Katie Milkman is like the best person

1291
01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:58,760
Speaker 3: in that field, is that making a big change all

1292
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:02,120
Speaker 3: at once is just not really feasible for most people,

1293
01:08:02,240 --> 01:08:04,200
Speaker 3: unless you know, there are times when you have to

1294
01:08:04,320 --> 01:08:06,640
Speaker 3: do that. But if you have a different way of

1295
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:11,520
Speaker 3: doing it, that's a little bit more graded, that's better. Yeah.

1296
01:08:11,560 --> 01:08:14,040
Speaker 1: The rock bottom is usually the only way people can

1297
01:08:14,160 --> 01:08:15,400
Speaker 1: about Yeah.

1298
01:08:16,320 --> 01:08:21,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just one more thought about the average person

1299
01:08:21,160 --> 01:08:24,920
Speaker 2: kind of developing that curiosity and that ability to interrogate

1300
01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:28,759
Speaker 2: why we're doing what we're doing. You've talked, You've mentioned

1301
01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:32,599
Speaker 2: Daniel Kahneman and his work, and that's something we talk

1302
01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:35,080
Speaker 2: about a lot here, like all of the different you

1303
01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:38,320
Speaker 2: mentioned heuristics, all of the different like mental shortcuts that

1304
01:08:38,400 --> 01:08:41,519
Speaker 2: we take. I just think it's so important to you know,

1305
01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:43,080
Speaker 2: and it's something we talk about here all the time,

1306
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:46,120
Speaker 2: Like everybody is susceptible to cults. This is not a

1307
01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:48,680
Speaker 2: thing for a particular type of person. We are all

1308
01:08:48,920 --> 01:08:52,240
Speaker 2: capable of believing crazy things. And I think that's true

1309
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:56,240
Speaker 2: of all cognitive bias. I mean it is. It's a

1310
01:08:56,360 --> 01:08:59,320
Speaker 2: human thing. These are just what brains do to conserve energy.

1311
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:02,600
Speaker 2: We make mental shortcuts, and we make our brains make

1312
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:05,760
Speaker 2: snap decisions for us that are easier for us to

1313
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:08,439
Speaker 2: go about our lives. But sometimes it does require us

1314
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:13,200
Speaker 2: to slow down and think about it, because that might

1315
01:09:13,280 --> 01:09:15,640
Speaker 2: be the only way we can actually really activate that

1316
01:09:15,720 --> 01:09:16,800
Speaker 2: critical thinking, right.

1317
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:19,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean think about it, like if you had,

1318
01:09:19,439 --> 01:09:22,200
Speaker 3: like I think about this sometimes, if I had to

1319
01:09:22,680 --> 01:09:25,799
Speaker 3: use the full power of my brain and my prefrontal cortex,

1320
01:09:26,320 --> 01:09:29,200
Speaker 3: like to make every single decision, like which shirt am

1321
01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:31,840
Speaker 3: I going to wear today, Like, I wouldn't get anything

1322
01:09:31,880 --> 01:09:36,080
Speaker 3: done right, right, and I would just pass out from exhaustion.

1323
01:09:36,520 --> 01:09:39,680
Speaker 3: So it's there for a reason. And I think what

1324
01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:42,280
Speaker 3: you said is true about conspiracy theories too, by the way,

1325
01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:45,880
Speaker 3: Like they are much more common than people think. And

1326
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:49,840
Speaker 3: I think that a lot of people believe some portion

1327
01:09:50,439 --> 01:09:53,640
Speaker 3: of a conspiracy theory, Like almost everyone has that in

1328
01:09:53,720 --> 01:09:57,400
Speaker 3: their brain, which sounds surprising to some people, but it's

1329
01:09:57,479 --> 01:10:00,400
Speaker 3: pretty like prevalent. And it doesn't mean that like you

1330
01:10:00,520 --> 01:10:04,080
Speaker 3: are a conspiracy theorist. It's just another thing that you know,

1331
01:10:04,240 --> 01:10:08,000
Speaker 3: our brains like to make patterns, and conspiracy theories are

1332
01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:10,080
Speaker 3: kind of a way of making a pattern that isn't.

1333
01:10:09,880 --> 01:10:13,160
Speaker 2: Really there right totally? Well, is there anything else that

1334
01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:16,200
Speaker 2: you would like to add before we plug your books?

1335
01:10:16,439 --> 01:10:20,799
Speaker 3: Again? I don't think. I mean, this was very wide ranging,

1336
01:10:21,000 --> 01:10:24,720
Speaker 3: so I think covered a lot. I didn't think that

1337
01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:28,839
Speaker 3: I'd be talking about all these all these topics.

1338
01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:33,439
Speaker 2: But well, I'm glad you glad you did Glady. Yeah,

1339
01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:37,000
Speaker 2: so your previous book is denying to the grave, why

1340
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:38,720
Speaker 2: we ignore facts that will save us? And then you

1341
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:40,720
Speaker 2: have another book coming out. Tell us the name of

1342
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:41,559
Speaker 2: that one again.

1343
01:10:41,520 --> 01:10:46,040
Speaker 3: The Anatomy of Deception, Conspiracy Theories, Distrust, and Public Health

1344
01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:46,599
Speaker 3: in America.

1345
01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:47,720
Speaker 5: When will that one be out?

1346
01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:48,560
Speaker 3: September?

1347
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:50,040
Speaker 2: Amazing?

1348
01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:53,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can pre order it on Amazon. Wonderful.

1349
01:10:53,360 --> 01:10:54,800
Speaker 2: And do you have social media at all?

1350
01:10:55,040 --> 01:11:00,559
Speaker 3: Yep? On Twitter? I am at Sarah gorm All right,

1351
01:11:00,720 --> 01:11:01,000
Speaker 3: got it?

1352
01:11:03,400 --> 01:11:05,960
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Thanks for joining us. Chris was

1353
01:11:06,120 --> 01:11:09,360
Speaker 2: so rewarding and stimulating and insightful.

1354
01:11:09,439 --> 01:11:10,519
Speaker 3: It's great to me you too.

1355
01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:14,479
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. All right, So, Megan, you

1356
01:11:14,640 --> 01:11:17,040
Speaker 2: asked Sarah this question in the interview is so now

1357
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:19,120
Speaker 2: I'm going to ask it to you. Is there something

1358
01:11:19,479 --> 01:11:22,360
Speaker 2: you used to believe firmly that you have changed your

1359
01:11:22,400 --> 01:11:22,760
Speaker 2: mind on?

1360
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:25,439
Speaker 5: Millions of things all of the time.

1361
01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:29,360
Speaker 1: One of my favorite things to do, but I think

1362
01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:33,320
Speaker 1: most recently the thing that most people would be familiar with.

1363
01:11:34,160 --> 01:11:38,000
Speaker 1: And of course I'm not speaking really scientifically because I'm

1364
01:11:38,040 --> 01:11:39,840
Speaker 1: not doing experiments or anything, but.

1365
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:43,599
Speaker 5: Just thoughts, are you know, ways I see the world.

1366
01:11:43,920 --> 01:11:48,599
Speaker 1: I totally believed in Twin Flames and the twin Flame universe.

1367
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:51,519
Speaker 1: I didn't believe in those two people or they're not

1368
01:11:51,680 --> 01:11:55,080
Speaker 1: that group, not that group in particular, and I wouldn't

1369
01:11:55,160 --> 01:11:59,599
Speaker 1: have liked them, but the concept was like very real

1370
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:03,439
Speaker 1: to me. And I think I even told the Vanity

1371
01:12:03,520 --> 01:12:06,200
Speaker 1: fair Rider that we interviewed that I still believe.

1372
01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:06,760
Speaker 2: In that, yeah, I.

1373
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:10,400
Speaker 5: And she was like, well, you can't do that, and

1374
01:12:10,479 --> 01:12:11,120
Speaker 5: I was like, but I do.

1375
01:12:12,360 --> 01:12:16,479
Speaker 1: So, you know, I've had to deconstruct twin Flames, the

1376
01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:21,080
Speaker 1: concept of like our souls coming into lives with people

1377
01:12:21,240 --> 01:12:25,000
Speaker 1: that were supposed to meet and soulmates and all of

1378
01:12:25,080 --> 01:12:25,519
Speaker 1: those things.

1379
01:12:25,600 --> 01:12:28,040
Speaker 5: It's just very ingrained into my belief system.

1380
01:12:28,360 --> 01:12:29,639
Speaker 2: And what made you change your mind?

1381
01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:31,760
Speaker 5: The documentary Twin Flames.

1382
01:12:31,800 --> 01:12:36,280
Speaker 2: Oh really not like life experience of things.

1383
01:12:36,439 --> 01:12:39,880
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, the watching that, I was like, oh wow, okay,

1384
01:12:40,360 --> 01:12:44,560
Speaker 1: I can see how this concept is very dangerous and ridiculous.

1385
01:12:44,840 --> 01:12:45,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1386
01:12:45,240 --> 01:12:47,479
Speaker 2: I think at the time I maybe referenced to the

1387
01:12:47,560 --> 01:12:50,120
Speaker 2: Sex and the City episode, did I I don't remember

1388
01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:51,600
Speaker 2: if I did or not, but there's a Sex in

1389
01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:54,360
Speaker 2: the City episode where they're like, you are you only

1390
01:12:54,439 --> 01:12:56,920
Speaker 2: destined for one great love for the rest of your life?

1391
01:12:57,160 --> 01:12:59,040
Speaker 2: What if you aren't together anymore?

1392
01:12:59,240 --> 01:12:59,760
Speaker 5: Do you get two?

1393
01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:02,320
Speaker 2: How do you know who's the real great love? It's

1394
01:13:02,360 --> 01:13:05,360
Speaker 2: you know, just like falls apart the as Sex and

1395
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:07,880
Speaker 2: the City showed me. It is a concept that.

1396
01:13:07,920 --> 01:13:10,880
Speaker 5: Ever thought you would be saying that love that show.

1397
01:13:13,160 --> 01:13:14,639
Speaker 5: Do you have any of the top of your head?

1398
01:13:14,760 --> 01:13:17,600
Speaker 2: I feel like mine would be all maybe historical or

1399
01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:19,800
Speaker 2: like medical that I can think of right away. There

1400
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:22,280
Speaker 2: are so many, But like you know, I grew up

1401
01:13:22,280 --> 01:13:27,840
Speaker 2: in a very like extremely like rural Midwest like Pro

1402
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:31,559
Speaker 2: America area, and I would say, as I learned about

1403
01:13:31,680 --> 01:13:37,240
Speaker 2: history and learned about American history, and that was sort

1404
01:13:37,240 --> 01:13:39,840
Speaker 2: of a deconstruction for me. I like, America is not

1405
01:13:39,960 --> 01:13:42,720
Speaker 2: this like great perfect thing where Columbus was awesome and

1406
01:13:43,160 --> 01:13:46,519
Speaker 2: and racism's over and you know we would never hurt anyone.

1407
01:13:46,680 --> 01:13:51,320
Speaker 2: Like that was a big turning point I think in

1408
01:13:51,479 --> 01:13:53,439
Speaker 2: my life. And then also just lots of like old

1409
01:13:53,479 --> 01:13:55,960
Speaker 2: wives tales about like you know, there's some things you

1410
01:13:56,160 --> 01:13:58,640
Speaker 2: know don't work because you've seen the evidence. But as

1411
01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:01,880
Speaker 2: we know, the first thing you learn persists person Yes,

1412
01:14:02,479 --> 01:14:04,720
Speaker 2: in your mind, that's just how brains work. But like

1413
01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:07,840
Speaker 2: I know, cranberry juice, for example, has no there's no

1414
01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:11,320
Speaker 2: evidence that it works for uti. There's evidence that d

1415
01:14:11,479 --> 01:14:16,280
Speaker 2: manos works in high concentration, there's evidence that whatever, like

1416
01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:18,559
Speaker 2: a couple other like medications you can take.

1417
01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:21,960
Speaker 5: I feel like there's evidence in my vagina, but it works.

1418
01:14:22,080 --> 01:14:26,600
Speaker 2: I mean, drinking a lot of anything is helpful and

1419
01:14:27,200 --> 01:14:30,320
Speaker 2: like maybe in like huge quantities, but like the evidence

1420
01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:33,880
Speaker 2: is very, very dubious on whether cranberry juice actually works.

1421
01:14:33,920 --> 01:14:35,559
Speaker 2: And I know that, but like there is a part

1422
01:14:35,600 --> 01:14:37,360
Speaker 2: of me that's still like, oh, I gotta get cranberry

1423
01:14:37,439 --> 01:14:41,280
Speaker 2: juice every time I have CI. I mean, although I

1424
01:14:41,320 --> 01:14:44,960
Speaker 2: actually have found manos to be significantly more effective. So interesting,

1425
01:14:45,240 --> 01:14:48,200
Speaker 2: but yeah, lots of stuff like that, and I'm like,

1426
01:14:48,479 --> 01:14:50,280
Speaker 2: I don't know, I get so excited about science. I

1427
01:14:50,320 --> 01:14:52,400
Speaker 2: get so excited about the next like ten twenty years

1428
01:14:52,439 --> 01:14:54,720
Speaker 2: because things are just going to We're going to learn

1429
01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:58,080
Speaker 2: so much more. And I look forward. I look forward

1430
01:14:58,160 --> 01:15:02,880
Speaker 2: to practicing changing my beliefs about things that work and

1431
01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:03,720
Speaker 2: things that don't work.

1432
01:15:03,760 --> 01:15:04,320
Speaker 5: You know what I mean.

1433
01:15:04,439 --> 01:15:07,920
Speaker 2: I've it's just so hard to do, as we know

1434
01:15:08,040 --> 01:15:10,040
Speaker 2: from this end, but it's fun. It's fun.

1435
01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:13,200
Speaker 5: It is fun just to speak to your thought.

1436
01:15:13,360 --> 01:15:15,200
Speaker 1: I went on a family cruise a couple months ago,

1437
01:15:15,240 --> 01:15:17,719
Speaker 1: and my dad was all excited to read the history

1438
01:15:17,840 --> 01:15:19,920
Speaker 1: of like one of the islands, and then he came

1439
01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:24,200
Speaker 1: back to lunch all like teary eyed, and.

1440
01:15:24,280 --> 01:15:31,120
Speaker 5: He was like, it's not good. Oh no, I mean

1441
01:15:31,160 --> 01:15:34,040
Speaker 5: it's not, but it's opposite.

1442
01:15:34,280 --> 01:15:38,400
Speaker 2: The dad awakening is so funny. I mean, my dad

1443
01:15:38,560 --> 01:15:41,680
Speaker 2: read the New Gym Crow, and I think that was

1444
01:15:41,680 --> 01:15:44,680
Speaker 2: a very different idea of America than anything he'd ever

1445
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:45,200
Speaker 2: had before.

1446
01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:47,880
Speaker 5: I mean, America is a hard one for me.

1447
01:15:47,920 --> 01:15:49,439
Speaker 1: I think we talked about that one when we talked

1448
01:15:49,439 --> 01:15:51,840
Speaker 1: about like adding God into the constitution or whatever.

1449
01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:53,880
Speaker 5: I'm like, whatever keeps it together.

1450
01:15:54,439 --> 01:15:59,479
Speaker 1: Because I'm like into America, not in a weird psycho

1451
01:15:59,600 --> 01:16:00,439
Speaker 1: I had, just you know.

1452
01:16:01,640 --> 01:16:04,200
Speaker 2: I'm into the idea of what America. I'm into what

1453
01:16:04,320 --> 01:16:06,640
Speaker 2: America can be if we actually live up to our

1454
01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:11,360
Speaker 2: ideals exactly. We just are not present, right and maybe.

1455
01:16:11,200 --> 01:16:12,080
Speaker 5: We will soon.

1456
01:16:12,439 --> 01:16:17,559
Speaker 1: Yeah show hey hope so, I hope so too. Thanks

1457
01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:20,840
Speaker 1: you all for listening to another week of trust Me.

1458
01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:23,560
Speaker 1: We can't wait to see you again next time, and

1459
01:16:23,800 --> 01:16:26,400
Speaker 1: as always, remember to follow your gut, watch out for

1460
01:16:26,479 --> 01:16:27,439
Speaker 1: red Plattz, and.

1461
01:16:27,560 --> 01:16:35,759
Speaker 2: Never ever trust me ye bye. Trust Me is produced

1462
01:16:35,760 --> 01:16:39,080
Speaker 2: by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator. The special

1463
01:16:39,160 --> 01:16:41,759
Speaker 2: thanks to Stacy Para and our theme song was composed

1464
01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:44,479
Speaker 2: by Holly amber Church. You can find us on Instagram

1465
01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:48,120
Speaker 2: at trust Me Podcast, Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod,

1466
01:16:48,360 --> 01:16:51,960
Speaker 2: or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast. I'm Ula

1467
01:16:52,040 --> 01:16:54,559
Speaker 2: Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1468
01:16:54,479 --> 01:16:58,040
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1469
01:16:58,240 --> 01:16:59,200
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1470
01:16:59,400 --> 01:17:08,120
Speaker 2: Remember to in review and spread the word mm hmm.