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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on

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Speaker 1: iHeart Radio. Chris Aubeck is one of the best writers

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Speaker 1: and scholars dealing with the UFO topics in the world,

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Speaker 1: and we're thrilled to welcome him to the Coast to

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Speaker 1: Coast program for the first time. Chris, great to have

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Speaker 1: you here. Hey, Hi, good morning from Spain. Good morning again.

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Speaker 1: It's it's it's great to have you here. And so

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Speaker 1: this project, you know, I read in the beginning how

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Speaker 1: how it started? I think twenty two years ago, twenty

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Speaker 1: one years ago. What was the impetus for it? Well, um, firstly,

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Speaker 1: the twenty two years ago I set up the Magunia

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Speaker 1: Exchange Group, which is a say, it's a small community

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Speaker 1: about one hundred between hundred and two hundred members on

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Speaker 1: the Internet, which is comprised like authors, researchers, even university

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Speaker 1: professors who are dedicated to looking for clues in like

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Speaker 1: newspaper archives and old books from the eighteen nineteenth century

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Speaker 1: to see how far back the UFO phenomenon actually goes.

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Speaker 1: So about twenty years ago I decided to find out

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Speaker 1: whether our ancestors had the same beliefs as we do today,

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Speaker 1: whether they also believe that we live in a populated

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Speaker 1: universe which was full of planets of sort of intelligent beings,

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Speaker 1: and whether those beings were visiting us. Because what I

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Speaker 1: realized was that most of the information that we know

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Speaker 1: about comes from scientists who left a written record of

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Speaker 1: their philosophical beliefs on the subject of a plurality of

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Speaker 1: inhabited worlds. They never really speculated about whether being from

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Speaker 1: elsewhere visited us or not. But the guy in the street,

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Speaker 1: normal people, farmers, shopkeepers, bartenders, they did have opinions, and

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Speaker 1: curiously enough, I found that they did believe that being

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Speaker 1: some other planets were visiting us. That is to say,

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Speaker 1: around the time of the American Civil War, people had

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Speaker 1: very very similar ideas about the universe and our place

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Speaker 1: in it as we do today. And I decided that

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Speaker 1: that's worth writing a book about. And that's what I've

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Speaker 1: been doing over the last twenty years, piecing all that together. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's an amazing amount of research that went into us.

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Speaker 1: There are a couple of hints that you drop in

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Speaker 1: this volume. One that you spent a heck of a

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Speaker 1: lot of your youth in libraries and dusty old archives,

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Speaker 1: going through books. I can't imagine that there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of people in the world who would spend so

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Speaker 1: much time and at that such a young age doing that. Well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've been building my own collection of UFO cutting since

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Speaker 1: i was about fifteen years old and now I'm fifty one,

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Speaker 1: and during this time I've I've amassed what I believe

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Speaker 1: to be the largest collection of historical UFO reports in

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Speaker 1: the world and this has been an invaluable resource to

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Speaker 1: to get to the bottom of this, to find out

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Speaker 1: when uthology was actually born. So through my group magonre Exchange,

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Speaker 1: we've we've collected over forty thousand cuttings since we started

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Speaker 1: in April two thousand and three, and then I've also

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Speaker 1: been sent other researchers entire collections of cases. And of

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Speaker 1: course when I add add this to what I've been

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Speaker 1: collecting myself since I was a young man in England,

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Speaker 1: it's just a huge amount of data SOLA. Over the

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Speaker 1: last ten years or so, I've withdrawn from sort of

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Speaker 1: actively posting about it through my group or online and

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Speaker 1: just trying to work out exactly what happened, how it evolved.

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Speaker 1: And the conclusions are really interesting because even even though

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Speaker 1: you can see how upology has evolved both culturally almost

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Speaker 1: as a literary phenomenon. It doesn't negate the existence of UFOs,

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Speaker 1: of course, it just means that we have to be

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Speaker 1: quite careful not to reinvent the wheel, because one hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty years ago we were saying basically the same things.

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Speaker 1: You know, a lot of people you've heard the argument

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Speaker 1: over the years that a lot of what we think

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Speaker 1: of as real with UFOs and aliens came from Hollywood.

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Speaker 1: You know that every time there's a new alien invasion

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Speaker 1: movie comes out, that comes out that it's because of

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Speaker 1: spikes and up well reports. But in fact, as you've

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Speaker 1: learned and you documented very well, this story, this basic

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Speaker 1: story has been around a really long time. How far

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Speaker 1: back does it go, Well, you can go back to Well,

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Speaker 1: it depends on whether we're talking about a belief in

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Speaker 1: extraterrestrials in general, the idea of a plurality of inhabited worlds,

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Speaker 1: or the idea that maybe they are actually visiting us,

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Speaker 1: or that they they have that capacity. So the theory

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Speaker 1: that we live in an inhabited universe started in ancient Greece.

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Speaker 1: In fact, the ancient Greeks had a school called atomism,

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Speaker 1: which was founded by Lucie person Democratus in in the

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Speaker 1: fifth century BC, and they believe there aren't many solar

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Speaker 1: systems like ours, and they said that most of these

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Speaker 1: solar systems would contain living things like ourselves. And all

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Speaker 1: of this was because they reached the conclusion that at

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Speaker 1: a microscopic level, all of matter was composed of atoms

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Speaker 1: and that the same the same patterns would be replicated

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Speaker 1: throughout the universe, which is incredible in itself, because of

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Speaker 1: course they didn't have microscopes of the time, there was

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Speaker 1: no way to prove it, and that of course meant

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Speaker 1: that this whole school of thought didn't last very long

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Speaker 1: because they just they just couldn't prove any of it.

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Speaker 1: But that's that's the conclusion they reached. Then, over the

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Speaker 1: next five hundred six hundred years, there was a certain

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Speaker 1: amount of speculation about life on the moon, life on

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Speaker 1: other planets. Then when you get to medieval times, when

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Speaker 1: you when you reach the Christian period, as theologians weren't

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Speaker 1: happy about the idea that we were living in in

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Speaker 1: in a highly populated universe, because they preferred to believe

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Speaker 1: that God had created the Earth as a as a

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Speaker 1: unique thing, as as we were totally unique in the cosmos. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and so it was almost prohibited to talk about the

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Speaker 1: possibility of life outside outside the Earth. But then in

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Speaker 1: the year twelve seventy seven, um and bishop in Paris

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Speaker 1: decided that, well, we shouldn't be trying to put limits

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Speaker 1: on God's creativity, and we shouldn't expect God to let

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Speaker 1: us know if he has built other other worlds and

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Speaker 1: other planets. So m let's accept that maybe maybe other

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Speaker 1: other life exists in space. So after that, after that

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Speaker 1: meeting they had in Paris in the thirteenth century, theologians

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Speaker 1: started talking about it again, and that was the case

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Speaker 1: for several hundred years. There was lots of debate in

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Speaker 1: the church at all levels about whether Jesus Christ had

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Speaker 1: incarnated on multiple planets, maybe had died an infinite number

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Speaker 1: of times to save to save mankind from some kind

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Speaker 1: of primeval sin. And then around the sixteenth century people

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Speaker 1: started writing science fiction about this kind of topic. But

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Speaker 1: then around the seventeenth century eighteenth century that became a

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Speaker 1: lot more serious, and it seems that that was around

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Speaker 1: the time that there was serious speculation about whether life

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Speaker 1: could be visiting us from other planets, whether we were

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Speaker 1: receiving delegations of visitors from Mars and so on, particularly

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Speaker 1: the Moon at that time, of course, that was the

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Speaker 1: planet of choice. Yeah, the Moon was a big one.

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Speaker 1: I was amazed by how many of the biggest names

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Speaker 1: in the history of science were weighed in on this.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you have Aristotle early on not being a

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Speaker 1: proponent of it, but Cicero and Plutarch. You say, we're

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Speaker 1: open to the idea of life, I think on the Moon,

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Speaker 1: and there are some pretty colorful accounts of what that

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Speaker 1: life might look like that far back. What were they

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Speaker 1: speculating about, Yeah, exactly. So at that time, a lot

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Speaker 1: of people used the word planet to describe the Moon,

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Speaker 1: and that's quite interesting because that way they could envision

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Speaker 1: a Moon with valleys and forests and buffalo roaming roaming

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Speaker 1: the plains and so on. I mean, there's a professor

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Speaker 1: are emeritus of Humanities at the University of Notre Dame,

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Speaker 1: Michael J. Crowe, who noted that during the Enlightenment period,

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Speaker 1: most intellectuals participated in the debate over extraterrestrial life, and

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Speaker 1: the vast majority of them favored the idea of the

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Speaker 1: plurality of world. So you have scientists like Galileo Galilei,

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Speaker 1: who did use that life on the Moon would be

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Speaker 1: very different from life on Earth, and Renee des Cartes

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Speaker 1: who said that the God could have created wonderful beings everywhere.

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Speaker 1: And there were so many books published on this on

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Speaker 1: this topic, I could say that there are probably more

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Speaker 1: books about extraterrestrial life on the in the in the

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Speaker 1: local bookshop in the eighteenth century than you'll then you'll

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Speaker 1: find these days. Amazing time. You know, I thought some

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Speaker 1: of the most entertaining anecdotes and incidents that you dug

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Speaker 1: up were a people writers in those eras who who

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Speaker 1: used the idea of people on the Moon or other

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Speaker 1: planets in terms as literary devices and also as sarcasm. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right, because what happened was that when it was

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Speaker 1: when when when scientists reached the conclusion that meteorites really

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Speaker 1: could come from from outer space and weren't just carried

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Speaker 1: by the wind from volcanoes on Earth that was the

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Speaker 1: original theory. Um this opened up a whole new sort

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Speaker 1: of genre of of of speculation, science fiction, satire, and

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Speaker 1: a lot more like that. People said, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: if meteorites can come from other planets. If if that

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Speaker 1: meteorite formed part of of a planet that exploded, or

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Speaker 1: had been on the side of a volcano that erupted

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Speaker 1: and was shot off into space, maybe any temples, houses, people,

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Speaker 1: cemeteries built around that volcano um could also have ended

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Speaker 1: up flying through the Solar System and coming to Earth.

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Speaker 1: So there was a period in the nineteenth century when

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Speaker 1: they used the idea of the x of an extraterrestrial

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Speaker 1: being um to as a kind of offensive way to

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Speaker 1: describe people who are slightly different, who maybe of a

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Speaker 1: different color, of a different religion, who just dressed differently,

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Speaker 1: and they'd say, well, this guy looks like he's just

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Speaker 1: come down from from Jupiter. This guy looks like he'd

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Speaker 1: just come out of a meteorite from from Mars. So

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Speaker 1: it was at the beginning of the nineteenth century that

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Speaker 1: this started to happen, when when people started saying, well,

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Speaker 1: maybe strange people really are from other planets. And it

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Speaker 1: was also a period when when m satirists started saying, well,

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Speaker 1: the president might be from another planet because his opinions

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Speaker 1: are very strange or his policies don't make any sense,

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Speaker 1: and they started inventing tales about about spaceships that had

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Speaker 1: landed in Teneriff or in any anywhere. To be honest,

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Speaker 1: there's um there were lots of stories about strange spaceships

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Speaker 1: from from the Moon, from Mars, from Venus that landed

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Speaker 1: in big cities, and that way they could explain, um,

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Speaker 1: why local politicians were so strange and had such absurd ideas.

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Speaker 1: So it became a very big topic, and it was

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Speaker 1: it was something that everybody joined in. It was I mean,

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Speaker 1: practically everybody had an opinion about about extraterrestrials at the time.

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Speaker 1: You know. One of the things that pops up in

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Speaker 1: modern UFO books they want to make an argument that

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Speaker 1: science can often be wrong. They will point out that

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Speaker 1: for a long time, even as recently as I think

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Speaker 1: the seventeen hundreds, scientists, leading scientists did not believe that

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Speaker 1: rocks could fall from the sky. You mentioned that they

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Speaker 1: thought maybe they were spewed by volcanoes or something like that.

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Speaker 1: They just couldn't believe it. And then, of course, you

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Speaker 1: know people living out in the country and in rural

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Speaker 1: areas whose opinions didn't carry much weight, they keep telling

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Speaker 1: them these things are real, They're coming out of the sky,

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Speaker 1: and eventually science changed its mind. You make the point

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Speaker 1: in this book about many times about leading scientists of

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Speaker 1: their eras who have what pretty wacky theories about what

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Speaker 1: was going on, people living on the Sun, for example,

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Speaker 1: and other things that we know now are absolutely preposterous. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's quite interesting. I mean, there's this theory in

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Speaker 1: the eighteenth century that the Sun could be inhabited, and

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Speaker 1: the idea was even presented as evidence in a court

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Speaker 1: case in seventeen eighty seven involving a scientist called doctor

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Speaker 1: John Elliott who had shot, perhaps accidentally, a young woman

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Speaker 1: on the streets of London, and his defense lawyer said

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Speaker 1: he was insane and anyone who didn't think so could

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Speaker 1: look at his work about life on the Sun. And

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Speaker 1: the fact is this theory was not uncommon at the time,

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Speaker 1: and it was proposed by notable scientists such as Sir

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Speaker 1: Frederick William Herschel, the man who discovered uranus. And it's

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Speaker 1: interesting because when I was fourteen fifteen, sixteen years old,

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Speaker 1: I used to talk to a British author of ancient

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Speaker 1: astronaut books, w Raymond Drake, who lived in Sunderland, and

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Speaker 1: he wrote many of the first books on this topic

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Speaker 1: before Eric Londarnican did, and I used to call him

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Speaker 1: on the phone and we used to chat for a while,

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Speaker 1: and he taught me once that he believed that there

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Speaker 1: was life on the Sun and that some UFOs came

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Speaker 1: from the Sun. This is another very very old idea,

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Speaker 1: the idea being that the center of the Sun is

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Speaker 1: completely cool, and we what radiates all of the energy

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Speaker 1: and heat is just a kind of aura that's that's

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Speaker 1: around the Sun that somehow UFOs must penetrate it if

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Speaker 1: they if they come to Earth, but it doesn't allow

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Speaker 1: us to see what's happening there. So this is a

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Speaker 1: three or even four hundred year old idea that survived

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Speaker 1: till the twentieth century. In fact, if you pick up

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Speaker 1: a copy of W. Raymond Rake's nineteen sixty four book Gods,

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Speaker 1: Gods and Spacemen, I think God's awd Spacemen, he has

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Speaker 1: a chapter on life on the Sun. Yeah, there were

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Speaker 1: a lot of very interesting theories floating around at the time,

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Speaker 1: and that's why I say sometimes, I mean they were

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Speaker 1: probably there was probably more speculation about extraterrestrial life three

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Speaker 1: hundred years ago than there is today. You have so

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Speaker 1: many great excerpts and entertaining pieces taken from books, newspaper

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Speaker 1: articles from all over Europe. It must be pretty handy

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Speaker 1: to be able to speak Spanish and read French and

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Speaker 1: English as well. And I can just imagine you going

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Speaker 1: through sifting through these dusty old archives and coming across

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Speaker 1: treasures that no one else has ever found before or

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Speaker 1: for a couple hundred years. That's why these days I've

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Speaker 1: got to wear glasses. I think something happened to Charles

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Speaker 1: Fort in his day. He used to spend hours and

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Speaker 1: hours sitting in the in the libraries in London and

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Speaker 1: New York, going through old newspapers and taking notes. Of course,

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Speaker 1: these days I just take a photo on them on

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Speaker 1: the mobile phone. I'm making a note from the laptop.

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Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at

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Speaker 1: one am Eastern and go to Coast to Coast am

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Speaker 1: dot com for more