Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: Pearl Jam, Stone Gossard and Jeff Amtt are two of
Speaker 2: the Seattle scenes most foundational musicians from the eighties and nineties.
Speaker 2: Stone and Jeff started playing together in nineteen eighty four
Speaker 2: as members of Green River, which eventually dissolved, leading singer
Speaker 2: Mark Arm to form Mud Honey. Later, Jeff played bass
Speaker 2: and Stone played guitar in Mother Love Bone until their
Speaker 2: lead singer Andrew Wood died of an overdose just days
Speaker 2: before their major label debut in March of ninety Reeling
Speaker 2: from Andy's death, Jeff and Stone started recording with soundgardens
Speaker 2: Chris Cornell in a side project called Temple of the
Speaker 2: Dog that featured vocals from a then unknown singer from
Speaker 2: San Diego named Eddie Vedder. Later that year, Jeff and
Speaker 2: Stone asked Eddie to join their new band with guitarist
Speaker 2: Mike McCready as Pearl Jam. They released their debut album
Speaker 2: ten in August of ninety one. The album went thirteen
Speaker 2: times platinum and charted on Billboard for nearly five years.
Speaker 2: Since then, Pearl Jam have released eleven more albums and
Speaker 2: built a diehard fan base, thanks in part to their
Speaker 2: outstanding live shows. Last week, they released their latest album,
Speaker 2: Dark Matter, which was produced by Andrew Watt, who's recently
Speaker 2: worked with Miley Cyrus, Iggy Pop, Post Malone, and one
Speaker 2: of my favorite projects in a long time from Ozzy Osbourne.
Speaker 2: On today's episode, Lea Rose talks to Stone, Gossard and
Speaker 2: Jeff Ament about how Andrew watts encyclopedic knowledge of Pearl
Speaker 2: Jam helped inspire some of their best performances to date.
Speaker 2: Stone and Jeff also opened up about the inner workings
Speaker 2: of the professional relationship, and Stone remembers the first time
Speaker 2: he met Eddie Vedder, who marked the occasion by passing
Speaker 2: him a handwritten poem. This is broken record liner notes
Speaker 2: for the digital age.
Speaker 1: I'm justin ritchman.
Speaker 2: Here's Lea Rose's conversation with Pearl Jam, Stone Gossard and
Speaker 2: Jeff Ament.
Speaker 3: When you set out to record the new album, did
Speaker 3: you have a feel in mind that you wanted to,
Speaker 3: you know, achieve for the new album something that was
Speaker 3: completely different from Gigaton or did it all sort of
Speaker 3: come together spontaneously? Man?
Speaker 4: I mean, have we ever had a plan and has
Speaker 4: the plan ever been what we actually ended up doing?
Speaker 1: I think Stone and I have lots of side conversations
Speaker 1: about what we hope the plan could be, but it's
Speaker 1: usually never that.
Speaker 4: No, we didn't know what we were going to do.
Speaker 4: All of us individually have aspirations for where we think
Speaker 4: the band can go or how it could kind of
Speaker 4: be different. You know. I think all of us are
Speaker 4: always aiming for trying to expand on what we've done
Speaker 4: in the past. And we have the experience of being
Speaker 4: in the band and having flashes of like what's possible,
Speaker 4: and those aren't always easy to recreate in different scenarios,
Speaker 4: especially recording scenarios, you know. But this was a big
Speaker 4: time flying blind and I think, you know, with Eddie
Speaker 4: having met Andrew and worked with him a little bit,
Speaker 4: it was sort of like, we're just going to show
Speaker 4: up in LA and we're you know, this young kid,
Speaker 4: he loves Pearl Jim, he's you know, he's a producer,
Speaker 4: he's you know, he's and Eddie had a great experience
Speaker 4: working with him on his solo record, and so we
Speaker 4: just all said, well, you know, we'll show up. That
Speaker 4: sounds fun, easy, and you know, immediately we were we
Speaker 4: were making music and good stuff was happening. So we
Speaker 4: sort of we got hooked in pretty quick to the process.
Speaker 3: Do you think this setting had anything to do with
Speaker 3: like recording at Shangri Law and being near the ocean
Speaker 3: and being in California, Do you think that influenced the
Speaker 3: music at all?
Speaker 1: You know, I mean we started at Andrew's house the
Speaker 1: first session, so the second session was sort of like
Speaker 1: thrown together last minute. And Rick opened up some time
Speaker 1: for us at Shangri La, which was very generous. I
Speaker 1: love that studio me right, Like, I love that there's
Speaker 1: like no TV and that had sort of minimal and
Speaker 1: there's like, really the only thing you can do if
Speaker 1: you're not playing music is to shoot pool. I love
Speaker 1: it when like the five of us can get in
Speaker 1: a room and just be focused, and it just feels
Speaker 1: like when we can do that, we always hit a
Speaker 1: vein in that session. There's three days where it's just
Speaker 1: that spot that you want to be as a vand
Speaker 1: where it's just like it's just going, you know, And
Speaker 1: that studio had a lot to do with us making
Speaker 1: a record really quickly.
Speaker 4: I think I think we got maybe four from the
Speaker 4: very first session, which was in Beverly Hills at Andrew's
Speaker 4: old spot, and that was like a year previous and
Speaker 4: we were there for ten days or something like that,
Speaker 4: maybe seven or eight, I can't remember, but we hit
Speaker 4: something that was great, but there was also some stuff
Speaker 4: that we kind of started to maybe sort of kind
Speaker 4: of think too much again or get too much on
Speaker 4: our old process. And I think then we had a
Speaker 4: year off and it was amazing to go back and
Speaker 4: then sort of have memories of what we did that
Speaker 4: first time and then really kind of go and everyone stayed,
Speaker 4: you know, pretty focused of and it's really the focus
Speaker 4: being whatever you're you know, bringing in today or however
Speaker 4: the song starts to go, just be ready for it
Speaker 4: to kind of get ripped open and rearranged and touched
Speaker 4: by everyone. And you have to have some courage when
Speaker 4: it comes to that kind of stuff. But also that
Speaker 4: it just makes it so much more of a band thing.
Speaker 4: Everyone's invested. Everybody is like writing and thinking about the
Speaker 4: song at that moment, and I mean, we've done it
Speaker 4: before like that, but I don't ever want to go back. Honestly.
Speaker 4: It was like, you know, in terms of that process,
Speaker 4: I loved it.
Speaker 3: You know, how does the band handle when there's like
Speaker 3: little squabbles over parts of songs, like if somebody brings
Speaker 3: something and you start playing, and somebody wants to take
Speaker 3: it in a different direction, and not everybody's agreeing. What's
Speaker 3: the communication like and who ultimately wins?
Speaker 4: I mean, I think we were trusting Andrew really on
Speaker 4: this record. Because he's a producer and we're going to
Speaker 4: make a record with you, you might as well trust his
Speaker 4: instincts and and go with it. So I think that
Speaker 4: having him there was was helpful in terms of just
Speaker 4: navigating that stuff. I think if anything gets too squabbly,
Speaker 4: we just move on to something else, and that this
Speaker 4: gets left behind probably more than anything. So I think
Speaker 4: all of us, you know, got to see how the
Speaker 4: group process ended up being a better process for almost everything.
Speaker 4: You know, at every juncture you'd kind of you know,
Speaker 4: and it was all very quick, which would make it better.
Speaker 4: It's like it's sort of ripping the band it off quick,
Speaker 4: you know, it's like got an idea, throw it down,
Speaker 4: it's already changed. It's you know, it's gone before you
Speaker 4: you know, And it was great. And Ed is inspired
Speaker 4: in those situations too. He writes so quickly when he's
Speaker 4: in on the process of the writing, as opposed to
Speaker 4: just getting a demo and like sitting with it in
Speaker 4: his room for weeks. You know. It's like it's it's
Speaker 4: much more fruitful for him to be there saying let's
Speaker 4: double that, or I don't like that part, let me
Speaker 4: get back to that other thing quicker, you know, Or
Speaker 4: I need a chord here, I need a different chord
Speaker 4: getting me to this, you know, to this next bit.
Speaker 4: And then it just becomes kind of a group process
Speaker 4: that's not the same as an individual kind of writing
Speaker 4: a song, but it's and that's I think that's what's
Speaker 4: special about this record is that it really is a
Speaker 4: lot of reconstructed, sort of quickly ideas, you know.
Speaker 1: And I think we learned a long time ago that
Speaker 1: if you're fighting too hard for something, it usually even
Speaker 1: if it ends up on the record, it usually I
Speaker 1: don't think it ends up being a joyful memory for
Speaker 1: the rest of the band, and even a joyful memory
Speaker 1: for you as the writer. I think. So I feel
Speaker 1: like as I've gotten older, I welcome like ripping my
Speaker 1: thing open, and I think it's far more interesting that way.
Speaker 1: I think the collaborative process to me is like one
Speaker 1: of the most interesting things, Like if you can really
Speaker 1: trust the other people in the band that you're collaborating with,
Speaker 1: it will usually come back way more interesting and have
Speaker 1: a different perspective that you can have if you're just
Speaker 1: have tunnel vision, you know, for your songs. So you know,
Speaker 1: it's not that different than how we made you know,
Speaker 1: the last couple of records with Brendan really I mean
Speaker 1: moving super fast and you know, FAD's not sort of
Speaker 1: latching onto something, moving on to the next thing, and
Speaker 1: so we're I think we're better in those.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think Andrew's enthusiasm, his unbridled enthusiasm, was an
Speaker 4: element of it. He never he never let us get
Speaker 4: down on ourselves at all individually. For me, like playing
Speaker 4: in there and sometimes being in there and going, you know,
Speaker 4: I don't know what I'm doing. It's like he would
Speaker 4: no matter what, he would just be like, oh that's great,
Speaker 4: no way, go back, you know, like he would just
Speaker 4: have this like you're gonna get You're gonna figure this out.
Speaker 4: You're my favorite guitar player.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: It's like just you know what I mean, but not
Speaker 4: necessarily that, but it's just like he just just infused
Speaker 4: you with He wasn't gonna let it get you down
Speaker 4: and he knew that that's not where you're going to
Speaker 4: get a good performance. So yeah, it's manipulative on one hand,
Speaker 4: but it also works, you know. And so I think,
Speaker 4: you know, his knowing the songs and loving Pearl Jam
Speaker 4: so much and just being a fan it was a
Speaker 4: major factor in sort of keeping the thing moving along
Speaker 4: and him really actually, I know how to play all
Speaker 4: your songs. I can show you where you know, you
Speaker 4: know that this should have been a minor chord, but
Speaker 4: you didn't. It's just cool. I'm so glad that you
Speaker 4: did that, like you know, so he was. He had
Speaker 4: a lot of energy for that. So that was that
Speaker 4: was a big factor I think.
Speaker 1: In the record. Yeah, and and and talking about those
Speaker 1: times when you're stuck. He could reference old songs. He
Speaker 1: would be like, yeah, like that thing that you do
Speaker 1: in Hail Hail, or he would reference things you'd be
Speaker 1: like and sometimes that would unstick you because it would
Speaker 1: like pull you out of a pattern that you were
Speaker 1: stuck in and it would make you think about it
Speaker 1: in a different pattern. And you know, I never felt
Speaker 1: stuck for more than a minute. Wow, you know when
Speaker 1: you were when you were working on stuff with him.
Speaker 3: So I'm fascinated by Andrew Watt because he's now produced
Speaker 3: albums for Ozzy Osbourne, Iggy Pop, He's working with you guys,
Speaker 3: the Rolling Stones last record.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's just going through his collection of childhood bands
Speaker 4: and going, I'm gonna work with this man, and I'm
Speaker 4: gonna work with this man. It's all his reality. We're
Speaker 4: just you know, we're just part of his dream right now,
Speaker 4: which is great. We'll take a ride with him.
Speaker 3: It's incredible. And is he like, was there anything since
Speaker 3: he has such a deep knowledge of Pearl Jam, was
Speaker 3: there anything from your catalog that he felt like he
Speaker 3: wanted to hear more of from a.
Speaker 4: Fan perspective completely, But he wouldn't necessarily tell us exactly
Speaker 4: what that was. But I think he wanted us to
Speaker 4: write more kind of collectively and quickly, kind of probably
Speaker 4: more like our earlier process was where it's like we
Speaker 4: didn't have any time or we never even realized you
Speaker 4: could have more time, and so we just stuff was
Speaker 4: just happening quick and nobody had time to think about
Speaker 4: it too much. And then just he wanted to make
Speaker 4: a heavy record. I think he really wanted it to
Speaker 4: be an aggressive Pearl Jam record and from the get go,
Speaker 4: so and he he had great sounds right away. You know,
Speaker 4: we just went into the studio and he kind of
Speaker 4: had stuff's kind of set up. You could go on
Speaker 4: and try this amp or try that guitar, but it
Speaker 4: was all kind of dialed in. So we were stuff
Speaker 4: was sounding good like kind of immediately. So that was
Speaker 4: that was good. He works fast, kept us interested for sure.
Speaker 1: And I had a lot of conversations after that first session,
Speaker 1: you know, like phone conversations with him where he would
Speaker 1: ask about how did this song get written? How did
Speaker 1: that song get written? And so he was I think
Speaker 1: he was like trying to mine like, okay that whatever
Speaker 1: the process was on that particular song, that's we need
Speaker 1: to revisit that process. Not necessarily like a similar riff
Speaker 1: or a similar sound even, but like the creative process.
Speaker 1: I think he was really trying to tap into, you know, ultimately,
Speaker 1: I think the best way we work with each other.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's we talk about it all
Speaker 1: the time about I think we all have strengths that
Speaker 1: sometimes like if we lean into those strengths that it
Speaker 1: turns out better.
Speaker 3: Can you quickly like run down what you feel everyone
Speaker 3: in the band's strengths are like who does what the
Speaker 3: best man?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, we have ed who can like if
Speaker 1: you have a if you have two chords or an
Speaker 1: interesting repetitive pattern, he can write a melody over that
Speaker 1: that's like memorable, and he can attach words to it
Speaker 1: that make you feel something deeply, which to me is
Speaker 1: one of the most incredible things to witness, to be
Speaker 1: in the room when that's happening and something's coming out
Speaker 1: of the ether and then all of a sudden the
Speaker 1: line comes out that's like this, you know, just this
Speaker 1: beautiful two line piece of poetry. Yeah, we have that.
Speaker 1: We have Matt Cameron in the band, who can, like
Speaker 1: you know, play drums around anything and make it interesting
Speaker 1: and has such a unique style and such a unique
Speaker 1: way to like accent things and places that you wouldn't expect,
Speaker 1: which sometimes turns the groove around in a really cool way.
Speaker 1: We have Mike McCready, who fucking rips and if you're
Speaker 1: working fast and he's just playing, it's like you tap
Speaker 1: into that thing that you know, you have a guy
Speaker 1: that can really take a song over the top. I
Speaker 1: think Stone and I are sort of the lunch pale guys.
Speaker 1: I think Stone would come in with a riff and
Speaker 1: I might say, hey, what if we simplify that little
Speaker 1: part of the riff, or he has a really busy
Speaker 1: riff and I'll just find the three big chords that
Speaker 1: sort of work over that riff. And I think sometimes
Speaker 1: some of the best stuff that we've done have been
Speaker 1: in that, in that spirit.
Speaker 4: And then you have Jeff who's ear and his listening
Speaker 4: to kind of the whole picture and understanding how where
Speaker 4: the glue needs to be, understanding really listening to the vocal,
Speaker 4: really understanding where how the vocal sits in the track
Speaker 4: and supporting that and sort of being this ear that
Speaker 4: has that you know, that big picture perspective on sonics
Speaker 4: and music history and you know an incredible you know
Speaker 4: audio file.
Speaker 1: Well, let me say one more good thing about Stone,
Speaker 1: because he's just said such nice things. But Stone also
Speaker 1: plays guitar like a drummer, Like his right hand is
Speaker 1: almost like having another drummer in the band, which I
Speaker 1: think some of the best stuff that we've done are
Speaker 1: when there's sort of almost those two kind of frenetic
Speaker 1: rhythmic elements happening when the drummer and Stone's right hand
Speaker 1: are sort of battling or you know, joining up. And
Speaker 1: I think there's I think there's moments on this record
Speaker 1: that have kind of classic Stone riffage.
Speaker 4: I was just gonna say, I think Dark Matter is
Speaker 4: a really great example of and I think that was
Speaker 4: one of the last, one of the last songs we wrote,
Speaker 4: but that that's a great example of the sort of
Speaker 4: mishmash of what is possible. And it started out with
Speaker 4: Matt Cameron stepping in the day before and just warming
Speaker 4: up on his drums, getting ready to record that day,
Speaker 4: and just starts playing this beat, which is the beat
Speaker 4: that's in Dark Matter, but it was he was kind
Speaker 4: of playing it on his snare and it wasn't like
Speaker 4: as aggressive as that, but it was like that beat
Speaker 4: was there, and we all just looked at each other
Speaker 4: and went, that's what he does every day. It's amazing.
Speaker 4: It comes in he plays that thing. It's like, how
Speaker 4: is that not a song? And we just rolled tape
Speaker 4: and we grabbed that beat and we looped it, and
Speaker 4: Jeff and I took that same loop poem that night
Speaker 4: and both of us wrote different parts that ended up
Speaker 4: being the verse and kind of the chorus melody parts
Speaker 4: and The next day, we had a song that was
Speaker 4: this weird combination of everybody's sort of you know, being there,
Speaker 4: but not anybody being in charge of what happened. And
Speaker 4: I just I live for that stuff. Now. It's like,
Speaker 4: I want to make a whole record where it's just like,
Speaker 4: don't bring anything in, or bring in only bits and pieces.
Speaker 4: You know, if we need a bit or a piece,
Speaker 4: be ready for it. But that that group arrangement is
Speaker 4: just a it's brilliant, and it's I think it's less
Speaker 4: common now. There's just more individual songwriting efforts and brilliant
Speaker 4: songwriting efforts. And I love that our place in rock
Speaker 4: right now might be more of like, hey, we do
Speaker 4: it as a we do it in a way that
Speaker 4: you can't replicate because you can't, you know, five different
Speaker 4: states of mind are attacking it from a different point
Speaker 4: of view. So I think that's a great example of
Speaker 4: what's possible when you write as a group.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that Stone, how would you describe how you
Speaker 3: and Mike McCready play off each other and how you
Speaker 3: come up with your parts together? How does that process work?
Speaker 4: You know, we just we just kind of feel it out.
Speaker 4: I think the less we talk about it, the better
Speaker 4: it is in general. But you know, I think, you know,
Speaker 4: as you play in a band, you kind of look
Speaker 4: for the spot where nobody's playing, or maybe there's a
Speaker 4: point in the musical phrase whereas it needs some support
Speaker 4: or it's something sagging or you need to So I
Speaker 4: kind of usually head for that spot and that accent,
Speaker 4: and I'll start just figuring out maybe it's a one
Speaker 4: note thing, or maybe it's like just a two note
Speaker 4: climb into that note, or you know, you just start
Speaker 4: kind of going through your little process of taking little
Speaker 4: building blocks and stacking them up and kind of seeing
Speaker 4: if it feels like it supports the architecture of the
Speaker 4: song or whatever. And I think Mike comes from a
Speaker 4: place of very much just needs to feel it and
Speaker 4: then just needs to play and winds his way through,
Speaker 4: you know, a track, and just finds his malady or
Speaker 4: his feel that makes him feel good.
Speaker 3: You know, Jeff, you mentioned that there wasn't anything to
Speaker 3: do at Shangri La other than to play pool. You know,
Speaker 3: in between recording Hanging Out, I noticed on the intro
Speaker 3: of the first song, Scared of Fear, it sounds like
Speaker 3: it builds to a pool break. Yeah, was that inspired
Speaker 3: by Shangri Law. And I'm just curious how you guys
Speaker 3: have thought traditionally about the album openers, like those little
Speaker 3: intros to the albums.
Speaker 1: Oh well, that was a piece that I sort of
Speaker 1: came up with. It sort of felt like the pool
Speaker 1: break right at the start of the record didn't feel
Speaker 1: like it, I felt maybe too abrupt, and so yeah,
Speaker 1: I recorded most of that in Montana, like just kind
Speaker 1: of going back and forth with Andrew, like you know,
Speaker 1: him saying like, yeah, it should be twenty five thirty seconds,
Speaker 1: and so I gave him like a minute with a
Speaker 1: bunch of ambient loops and yeah, a bunch of music.
Speaker 1: And I love making that sort of stuff, and which
Speaker 1: we you know, our very first record, the Master Slave Pieces,
Speaker 1: was sort of a very early sort of version of
Speaker 1: that kind of piece of music. And some of it
Speaker 1: was me taking the actually the little melody at the
Speaker 1: end of the record and sort of changing I actually
Speaker 1: took that little three chord melody that Ed's playing on
Speaker 1: guitar at the end of the record, and I sort
Speaker 1: of transposed it to fit a key lower than the
Speaker 1: beginning of the key that that scared of fear starts
Speaker 1: so just to just to make it feel like there
Speaker 1: was a little boost when when Stone comes in with
Speaker 1: that riff.
Speaker 3: Very cool.
Speaker 4: That is the That is the pool Table from Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: that's recorded there. And was it Sean Penn?
Speaker 1: A couple of annoyments.
Speaker 4: I think it was maybe Sean Penn that.
Speaker 3: Broke the seems like a solid break.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it looks like the I bet the balls spread
Speaker 4: around the table. It wasn't the.
Speaker 1: Fanciest MIC's ever on pool Table.
Speaker 4: How many takes did they get though? It's like two
Speaker 4: hours of like, let's do it again, but I'm.
Speaker 2: At most after quick break, will be back with more
Speaker 2: from Leah Rose, Stone Gossard and Jeff Ament. We're back
Speaker 2: with Stone, Gossard and Jeff Ament.
Speaker 3: I'm curious about the song Wreckage, which I love so much.
Speaker 3: It's so pretty. How did that song come about? What
Speaker 3: do you remember from that session?
Speaker 1: The main thing I remember is Ed sitting down the
Speaker 1: guitar and sort of playing the basically the chords to
Speaker 1: the verse, and then we just kind of moved through that.
Speaker 1: Ed kind of kept adding parts. I mean that song,
Speaker 1: I mean, from my standpoint, it felt like it was
Speaker 1: getting written on the move, you know, like as he
Speaker 1: was adding chords, then another vocal melody happens and we
Speaker 1: got the bulk of that song down I think in
Speaker 1: a few hours.
Speaker 4: Yeah, man, I think that there's an open G tuning
Speaker 4: which is Andrew kind of coming along with that sort
Speaker 4: of a distinctive It sort of breaks it out of
Speaker 4: what might be a little bit more of a straightforward
Speaker 4: song and it sort of adds some harmonic and rhythmic
Speaker 4: variety to it. So I think that's a pretty distinctive
Speaker 4: part of that track, as well as that sort of
Speaker 4: openg strum that he's got going.
Speaker 3: On there, and also upper Hand. That's one of these
Speaker 3: songs that it sounds like it's going to be so
Speaker 3: incredible live. Do you think about how the songs are
Speaker 3: going to translate to the stage when you're recording them
Speaker 3: or before you go in or is that a consideration?
Speaker 1: I don't think I do. I think there was something
Speaker 1: about when they created that piece. I mean that was Ed,
Speaker 1: and Andrew and Josh that sort of created that pre
Speaker 1: instrumental piece. I can imagine like when you're creating that
Speaker 1: that you're setting a mood and a tone for the
Speaker 1: song that's about to come, and we sort of got
Speaker 1: into that yesterday and rehearsal, just trying to recreate this
Speaker 1: sounds of that of that piece. It's gonna be it's
Speaker 1: gonna be a fun one just because it's gonna it's
Speaker 1: gonna create such a mood live. I think, you know
Speaker 1: how the outro is. It's it's sort of a wide
Speaker 1: open outro, you know, it's sort of a place where
Speaker 1: again where Mike and Matt can really shine.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a nice it's nice that we that that
Speaker 4: opening piece really gives it more room to get to
Speaker 4: that sort of crescendo. You know, Without it, I think
Speaker 4: it would be it's almost too short, like you wouldn't
Speaker 4: be in the song long enough before you're at the crescendo.
Speaker 4: So this is sort of gives that nice runway to
Speaker 4: kind of ease you into it. And it's a beautiful
Speaker 4: it's a beautiful piece.
Speaker 3: It is beautiful.
Speaker 4: Josh Klinghoffer really sort of wrote the chords. I think
Speaker 4: to that.
Speaker 3: When it comes to writing songs that end up being anthemic,
Speaker 3: are there any like tricks or anything that you can
Speaker 3: always rely on or is that not even a consideration
Speaker 3: when you're making music?
Speaker 4: What do you mean by them just like something that.
Speaker 3: Will soar on stage in a live setting.
Speaker 4: I think, I mean if usually the kinds of things
Speaker 4: that translate and that are allowed to sort pretty simple
Speaker 4: in terms of their presentation. I think the more detail
Speaker 4: you get, you know, as you if you're writing a
Speaker 4: song in your house and you're sort of starting to
Speaker 4: add on more parts and you're kind of your acoustic
Speaker 4: part is getting more complex, all of that stuff tends
Speaker 4: to not translate when it comes to a room where
Speaker 4: two big chords and some space, yeah, and one riff
Speaker 4: where everybody's kind of playing together at one point, and
Speaker 4: then maybe it opens up and does something else. But
Speaker 4: I just think, you know, it really is primary colors
Speaker 4: to start out with, you know, and a change that
Speaker 4: feels good or that has impactful you know, chord change
Speaker 4: or a rhythmic pulse change or a tempo change or
Speaker 4: whatever it is. So yeah, but I think simplicity is
Speaker 4: probably the key, you know, and I think that's that's
Speaker 4: a good place for us to be, is not getting
Speaker 4: too into the detail of all the different ways you
Speaker 4: can play the same chord.
Speaker 3: Before we move on from the new album, are there
Speaker 3: any songs, any stories about recording the songs that you
Speaker 3: want to talk about, anything that really stands out.
Speaker 4: I love the story of How We Got Won't Tell,
Speaker 4: which started out with Jeff Amett having a dream. And
Speaker 4: I've been telling this and I'm not sure i've been
Speaker 4: I'm not sure I'm telling the story right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean without going I mean it's kind of
Speaker 1: a long story. But I had a fairly realized dream
Speaker 1: of a song that I woke up, which I occasionally
Speaker 1: do and you sort of lay down and usually when
Speaker 1: you listen to it again, it's like nonsensical and bad
Speaker 1: and whatever. But this thing actually was like when I
Speaker 1: listened to it, I was like, Wow, there's something in there,
Speaker 1: and even the lyric. I think we were like, you know,
Speaker 1: probably three quarters of the way through the last session,
Speaker 1: and I was there early, and Andrew had said, hey, hey,
Speaker 1: you got something, and so I played him and he goes, man,
Speaker 1: that's awesome, and it was a complete song, and he said,
Speaker 1: what if we just give Ed the lyrics and the
Speaker 1: band can learn the music and let Ed sort of
Speaker 1: interpret the lyrics. And it took a couple of a
Speaker 1: couple of rounds for Ed to sort of, like I think,
Speaker 1: come up with something that he was super happy about.
Speaker 1: But he ended up coming up with like almost as
Speaker 1: like a dream of a dream. You know. It's like
Speaker 1: me telling him and then him sort of interpreting it
Speaker 1: in this almost like kind of a psychedelic way, which
Speaker 1: the dream was pretty psychedelic. So it was just a
Speaker 1: brand new way to write a song. Yeah, and it was.
Speaker 1: The song was written on a baritone guitar. Josh Klinghoffer
Speaker 1: had bought us all these baritone guitars, and I had
Speaker 1: it in this open tuning and had kind of written
Speaker 1: the piece in that because the dream involved an electric
Speaker 1: dulcimer that sounded kind of like Neil Young, but it
Speaker 1: was a woman playing this electric dulcimer. So you're not.
Speaker 4: Talking about Joni Mitchell. I don't know. But is it
Speaker 4: Joni Mitchell's in the dream, isn't she? That's the thoughts like, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: Joni Mitchell came to him in this sleep.
Speaker 1: We had a we had a we had a Yeah,
Speaker 1: we had a conversation in the dream.
Speaker 3: Wow, what did you guys talk about?
Speaker 1: It was about a song that she and Neil wrote together,
Speaker 1: and this is that song. Wow, this is the song.
Speaker 4: But we're not going to share publishing or something about it.
Speaker 3: So have you guys ever played with Joni?
Speaker 1: We haven't. We did share an airplane ride with her,
Speaker 1: like in about ninety three in Canada, and and then
Speaker 1: when we got on the plane, she was I was
Speaker 1: sitting in the aisle seat and she was sitting in
Speaker 1: the aisle seat right across from me, and I, I mean,
Speaker 1: this is this might come off as stocker ish, but
Speaker 1: I was listening to a lot of Joni Mitchell the time.
Speaker 1: So I reached into my CD wallet, which it was
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, so and I put in Blue, and
Speaker 1: I put in my headphones, and during the flight, I
Speaker 1: would just look overever every once in a while and
Speaker 1: go wow, like.
Speaker 3: You just like stare at her in mouth.
Speaker 1: I didn't stare at her. I didn't stare at her,
Speaker 1: but I was I sort of felt like I'm in
Speaker 1: Canada and I'm listening to Blue and I'm sitting across
Speaker 1: from Johny Mitchell. So there it is crazy reverence. I mean,
Speaker 1: she's like one of my favorite just artists because she's
Speaker 1: I think as much because she's a great painter as
Speaker 1: a great musician. I love that in her feel her
Speaker 1: right hand and just her how she tells stories, like,
Speaker 1: you know, I think it leans on jazz, but it's
Speaker 1: so her because she small town Canadian girl. You know,
Speaker 1: I think I think I relate to that part of
Speaker 1: it too, because she she sort of grew up not
Speaker 1: too far from where I grew up, just across the border.
Speaker 3: So oh, that's so cool. After ten took off in
Speaker 3: the beginning and all of a sudden, you guys started
Speaker 3: playing with other like really huge artists. Was there anybody
Speaker 3: who you found yourself on stage with where you were
Speaker 3: just like, what is going on?
Speaker 1: Everybody?
Speaker 4: I mean, I mean we felt I felt that a
Speaker 4: way about the Chili Peppers right off the bat, when
Speaker 4: the Chili Peppers took us out just watching John Feschanti
Speaker 4: every night in Chad, and I mean there was the
Speaker 4: way those guys played. It was so much bigger than
Speaker 4: anything we'd ever heard in terms of like, oh that's
Speaker 4: how you like, that's how your stage can sound, that's
Speaker 4: how they play the whole sound. And I think we
Speaker 4: were still in our you know, all the vibrations were
Speaker 4: very fast, we were we weren't tuning into each other
Speaker 4: in the same way that we've learned more now to
Speaker 4: be able to do. But that was an amazing experience,
Speaker 4: you know, seeing you know, seeing Neil Young play with
Speaker 4: Booker T and the MGS and Jim Keltner. That was
Speaker 4: like never done. Yeah, I mean, never heard of pocket
Speaker 4: like that deep before. It's like everyone was out pocketing
Speaker 4: each other. It's like you know what I mean, like
Speaker 4: the one was somewhere, you know, incredible. So I mean,
Speaker 4: but we've had that over and over again, you know,
Speaker 4: seeing you two play and all all the early opportunities
Speaker 4: to see bands go on.
Speaker 1: That the show we played with Keith Richards and Steve
Speaker 1: Jordan and Charlie Drayton, that show was also just witnessing
Speaker 1: bands play with so much space. I think that's I
Speaker 1: do remember on those Neil Booker T. I remember just
Speaker 1: sort of listening to a conversation that Keltner and Duck
Speaker 1: Dunn were having about like, yeah, we keep Duck would
Speaker 1: say like, yeah, well keep asking Neil, we're playing the groove.
Speaker 1: Doesn't feel like we're playing the groove in the right place.
Speaker 1: And because it sort of helped make Neil's songs, they
Speaker 1: just sounded different. Those Crazy Horse songs sounded different with
Speaker 1: Booker T and those guys, it just swung differently, but
Speaker 1: the space, the space like watching Duck and Keltner play
Speaker 1: together was like, I mean, there was four or five
Speaker 1: shows where I remember I was just sort of sitting
Speaker 1: between them, like fifteen feet from them, taking basically a
Speaker 1: masterclass and rhythm section, you know, and going like that's
Speaker 1: how you play on a mid tempo song, like right there.
Speaker 1: I mean, my chi. I think my playing changed overnight
Speaker 1: from playing in those ten shows.
Speaker 3: Neil seems like he's so energized when he's playing with
Speaker 3: you guys. Has he ever articulated to you like what
Speaker 3: it is about Pearl Jam that gets him like so pumped?
Speaker 1: You know? He called me last summer they were mixing
Speaker 1: Mirror Ball and at Most, and he was just so
Speaker 1: he was so generous and so kind, like in terms
Speaker 1: of he just goes man like, you know, your guys
Speaker 1: is playing on this is so great. And I think
Speaker 1: I moved so fast from record to record. I don't
Speaker 1: really I don't really get a chance to listen back,
Speaker 1: but I'm really listening to how you guys chose to play,
Speaker 1: and I appreciate it so much and I hope we
Speaker 1: get to do it again and of course you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: can we please do it again because we'll be even well,
Speaker 1: we'll give you more space and we'll be so much
Speaker 1: better than we were in nineteen ninety five.
Speaker 4: After him playing, he plays the song once for us.
Speaker 4: We learned the chords and he's like, okay, we're going
Speaker 4: to record it, and then you record it and it's
Speaker 4: like done, great. You know, it's like I was just
Speaker 4: you know, warming up. Mostly we were just trying to
Speaker 4: remember the chords, you know, which, of course he loves
Speaker 4: because that's how he is. He's like, oh, that's great.
Speaker 4: You know, it's like, which is fun. But playing with
Speaker 4: Neil is you know, that's such an honor. It's just
Speaker 4: like incredible, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: He seems so just like open and connected to whatever
Speaker 3: it is that sends him information and inspiration.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then he just loses his mind and then
Speaker 4: you get to lose your mind too. You know. It's
Speaker 4: just like playing you know, three chords, which is there's
Speaker 4: nothing more satisfying than being having transcendence in three chords
Speaker 4: where it's like it's not you know, it's not all
Speaker 4: the years of your studying music and it's not you know,
Speaker 4: any sort of science or any kind of you know,
Speaker 4: anything that is rigor you know, it's just literally joyful
Speaker 4: play with three notes.
Speaker 3: How long does it take you, guys to get comfortable
Speaker 3: with somebody like that in the studio? Like do you
Speaker 3: go in there super nervous or or like is there
Speaker 3: a period of time where you have to sort of
Speaker 3: settle in?
Speaker 1: I remember that session. I remember sweating a lot, and
Speaker 1: then and then I got crazy sick, like the fourth
Speaker 1: or fifth day, like I think that was the day
Speaker 1: they recorded that many days I did it, It was
Speaker 1: it was five days total, but it was four days
Speaker 1: of recording the Neil songs, and then the fifth day
Speaker 1: they went in and they recorded that version of I
Speaker 1: Got id Okay, which I but I had I had
Speaker 1: the flu like for two days, so it might have
Speaker 1: just been like pushing down the pressure and the anxiety
Speaker 1: and just trying to you know, in the focus, and
Speaker 1: you're in the studio with like one of your favorite
Speaker 1: if not your favorite artist ever and not wanting to
Speaker 1: let him down and let the whole session down.
Speaker 4: So none of us are studio musicians. I mean there's
Speaker 4: people that can come in and like chart things out
Speaker 4: in two seconds, like play by ear in such a
Speaker 4: way that you know, lots and lots of people can
Speaker 4: do that that's never been certainly not ever in my
Speaker 4: you know. So you know, you're kind of trying to
Speaker 4: find the basic chords and then quickly find something that
Speaker 4: helps those chords. And it was nerve wracking for me
Speaker 4: for sure too.
Speaker 1: I mean half the record, I because I listened to
Speaker 1: that most mixed after he said that they mixed it,
Speaker 1: and half the record, I'm like, I don't remember playing
Speaker 1: that at all. Wow, Like you know, there's places where
Speaker 1: I'm moving a lot, and I'm like, man, I don't remember
Speaker 1: playing that at all.
Speaker 3: Do you like it when you hear it back?
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, It's probably one of my favorite things that
Speaker 1: we've ever done. And I think it's partly like that.
Speaker 1: It was largely like a dream. It felt like a
Speaker 1: dream because he would come in, well, he had two
Speaker 1: songs at the start, he had Active Love and Downtown,
Speaker 1: and then he would go stay on his boat at
Speaker 1: night and come in and I remember like the second
Speaker 1: or third day came in with the ocean and it
Speaker 1: was like it was like six pieces of paper taped
Speaker 1: together and it was like just you know, like Bob
Speaker 1: Dylan verse, you know, just like twenty verses and kind
Speaker 1: of going like, oh shit, like this is going to
Speaker 1: be a lot. But it was essentially three chords for
Speaker 1: eight minutes.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he was just going back to wherever he was
Speaker 4: staying on his boat. Is that what he was saying. Yeah,
Speaker 4: he was just going back to his boat and like,
Speaker 4: you know, smoking weed and fucking writing new songs. And
Speaker 4: then he'd come in and go, Okay, here's his next song,
Speaker 4: you know. So we were just experiencing it with him
Speaker 4: in that moment. So he was he was just happy
Speaker 4: to have to turn into something, and we were just
Speaker 4: kind of on for the ride.
Speaker 3: Since I have both you guys together, is it okay
Speaker 3: if I ask you a little bit about Green River?
Speaker 4: Sure?
Speaker 3: How do you feel about like talking about the old
Speaker 3: stuff in general? Is it a drag?
Speaker 4: Fine? No? No?
Speaker 1: Love it?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 3: Okay? Cool? How did you guys even meet? How did
Speaker 3: you start playing together?
Speaker 1: Well, it's it's I think it's like almost forty years
Speaker 1: to the day, like somewhere March April, four years ago.
Speaker 1: We met at the Metropolis, which was a sort of
Speaker 1: communal punk rock club that sky Hugo opened up up
Speaker 1: and I'm not even sure if there was a band
Speaker 1: playing that night, but I was hanging out with Mark
Speaker 1: and Stone, and Stone was with his friend Chris Pepperd
Speaker 1: and Stone and Chris represented a very youthful, sarcastic Pacific
Speaker 1: Northwestern energy and I had sort of a farm kid Montana,
Speaker 1: not like serious energy, and I think it was like
Speaker 1: it was like an odd you know, it was a
Speaker 1: little bit of a weird first meeting. And then like
Speaker 1: within a month or two, Mark and Steve were like, hey,
Speaker 1: we want our friends Stone to play and I was
Speaker 1: like Stone the guy that I met, Like, I was like, ah,
Speaker 1: not sure.
Speaker 4: You know about that guy?
Speaker 1: And then I remember Steve, which is which is this
Speaker 1: is crazy because when you think about the how that
Speaker 1: band sort of worked, and even part of the reason
Speaker 1: that maybe Steve didn't want to be in the band
Speaker 1: anymore because we got too heavy. Steve was selling me
Speaker 1: on Stone, saying like he's got a Marshall and a
Speaker 1: Les Paul, And in my mind, I was like fantastic,
Speaker 1: like like two guitar, you know, two guitars, it'll be
Speaker 1: you know, because Steve was playing really super clean guitar. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: he had a super twin that was like really loud
Speaker 1: but just so piercingly clean, and so I was like
Speaker 1: distorting my bass more and more just trying to like
Speaker 1: make it into whatever I thought that the band should be.
Speaker 1: And so the idea that there was going to be
Speaker 1: a less pollent of Marshall that convinced you that that
Speaker 1: won me over.
Speaker 3: What do you remember Stone about your first meeting.
Speaker 4: Just like a flash of like kind of outside talking,
Speaker 4: you know, outside the metropolis, you know, having a conversation,
Speaker 4: and you know, but this is this is at a
Speaker 4: time where I probably have been playing guitar for maybe
Speaker 4: a year and just like kind of you know, dinking
Speaker 4: around on it, like I wasn't a guitar player. I
Speaker 4: mean I could play a barcord maybe at that point.
Speaker 4: So but the idea that you know, that that was
Speaker 4: cool and that and that we all kind of just
Speaker 4: decided to be in a band together, and that it's
Speaker 4: gone on in this way that it has. It's one
Speaker 4: of the great mysteries and you know, phenomenons obviously of
Speaker 4: our lives, but just like it just goes to show
Speaker 4: that you just you don't know where something's gonna go,
Speaker 4: and you have to kind of follow it and Jeff's
Speaker 4: and I's journey with each other I think symbolized by
Speaker 4: that first encounter that we didn't we haven't always understood
Speaker 4: each other, and we haven't always I think that we
Speaker 4: see the world in different ways, and I think we're
Speaker 4: in our like you know, late honeymoon right now where
Speaker 4: we're just like, well, you know, we get to see
Speaker 4: each other and we're kind of like, wow, this is
Speaker 4: still going, this is pretty good. How did this work out?
Speaker 4: You know, because it's it's really phenomenal. But you know,
Speaker 4: I think us sticking it out with each other in
Speaker 4: certain ways has been one of the It's the biggest
Speaker 4: thing that's happened in my life for sure, in terms
Speaker 4: of all the things that I've learned from Jeff and
Speaker 4: and that we've learned together in our just by having
Speaker 4: our relationship work, all the other the community that's connected
Speaker 4: to Jeff and I through the years, it's it's crazy,
Speaker 4: it's incredible. Yeah, it's weird.
Speaker 3: I saw an interview that you guys did in nineteen
Speaker 3: ninety right after it seemed like maybe a month or
Speaker 3: so after Andy Wood had died, and you were sort
Speaker 3: of like stuck with the album with the Mother Love
Speaker 3: Bone with the Apple album, and I guess it was
Speaker 3: time to promote it. And there's one point, Jeff where
Speaker 3: you're like, yeah, like who knows, like what we're even
Speaker 3: going to do next, And it was I don't know,
Speaker 3: like how soon before that was that Pearl Jam came together,
Speaker 3: but it was just such a crazy moment to see
Speaker 3: captured on video. Do you remember that time?
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I and I think about that time a
Speaker 1: lot because I think how we both reacted to Andy passing.
Speaker 1: We both handled it really different ways. You know. Our
Speaker 1: relationship has been this slow reveal of each other and
Speaker 1: understanding each other. And I think there's a there's a
Speaker 1: point when like you come from such different backgrounds and
Speaker 1: have such different sort of chemistry, you know. I feel
Speaker 1: like it probably took ten fifteen years into our relationship
Speaker 1: where I was like where I really like trusted and
Speaker 1: really respected Stone, you know. And I think you say
Speaker 1: the same thing. But I think that's been the why
Speaker 1: the journey has lasted this long. I think I think
Speaker 1: like a part of me feels like why did it
Speaker 1: take me that long? And I think some of it's
Speaker 1: like you're in your twenties and I think even moving
Speaker 1: through Andy passing, like to be honest, like I didn't
Speaker 1: have much of a safety net at that point. So
Speaker 1: I was like I felt a teeny bit of desperation, like,
Speaker 1: how am I going to pay my rent? I'm twenty
Speaker 1: seven years old? Do I need to go back to school?
Speaker 1: You know? Does lightning only strike once? Is that over?
Speaker 1: And so it was probably the first time in my
Speaker 1: life where I felt pressure. I felt real, real pressure on.
Speaker 1: Like I sort of felt like I lost my my
Speaker 1: will or my you know, the strand that I was
Speaker 1: sort of on that you know, it was a little
Speaker 1: bit haphazard, and you're sort of living paycheck to paycheck
Speaker 1: and you're just playing music and having fun with your
Speaker 1: friends and whatever. But then there's a point you're twenty seven,
Speaker 1: twenty eight years old, and this thing that you've sort
Speaker 1: of been working on for you know, three years with Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you.
Speaker 3: Guys had gotten a deal that would probably was like
Speaker 3: super exciting and like felt like you were in some
Speaker 3: real traction.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just quit my job. Was the first time
Speaker 1: in my life I didn't have a job, you know.
Speaker 1: So yeah, and you know, and Stone like hit the
Speaker 1: ground running and wrote a bunch of beautiful tracks that
Speaker 1: ended up you know, I mean black, you know, I
Speaker 1: mean arguably the best song that we've written as a band.
Speaker 1: And Stone came up with that music that right off
Speaker 1: the bat, you knew that there was like this beautiful
Speaker 1: energy behind it, and that the melody and the outro
Speaker 1: that he wrote, like you know, that was how he
Speaker 1: responded to Andy passing. And whereas I was like, I
Speaker 1: was scrambling. I didn't know. I didn't know if I
Speaker 1: was gonna play music anymore. I thought maybe I'll go
Speaker 1: back to school and be a teacher, you know, back home,
Speaker 1: work on the farm. I didn't know. So thank god
Speaker 1: that Stone wrote those songs. And I was hanging out
Speaker 1: with Mike a bunch. He worked right across the street
Speaker 1: from me, and they were playing together. And so Mike
Speaker 1: was working me and Mike was working Stone, and it's
Speaker 1: sort of like we ended up playing together.
Speaker 4: Luckily, I live with my parents, so I didn't feel
Speaker 4: the same kind of pressure that Jeff felt as far
Speaker 4: as I was twenty four years old living with my parents,
Speaker 4: So that just shows you where I was at.
Speaker 1: But I look back at that summer as being like,
Speaker 1: you know, just one of those moments in your life
Speaker 1: where it's like it's just raw and real and yeah,
Speaker 1: you know they the way that things fell into place.
Speaker 1: After that we started playing together. We recorded Matt Cameron,
Speaker 1: which is like also just like dream like like we'd
Speaker 1: all love Matt so much, but we're like, did a
Speaker 1: couple of rehearsals, went in the studio with him, sort
Speaker 1: of knocked out these six seven instrumental tracks, and then
Speaker 1: you know the process of like you know, Stone had
Speaker 1: the idea like, hey, let's ask Jack Irons to play
Speaker 1: with us. We're like, we don't even have a band,
Speaker 1: Like it was so bold, you know, and then him suggesting,
Speaker 1: like he goes, well, I know this guy crazy Eddie,
Speaker 1: Like you know he's not a drummer, but you know,
Speaker 1: and so and how fast that all happened, and like
Speaker 1: playing with Dave Cruising and Dave Cruising like you listen
Speaker 1: to what he played on ten and those early songs,
Speaker 1: like it's it informs our sound more than I think
Speaker 1: we thought at the time, Like Dave really brought a
Speaker 1: really interesting element to the band and the groove, and
Speaker 1: but it happened so fast, it's like it's it's nuts,
Speaker 1: you know, less than a year of us meeting ed
Speaker 1: we were touring with your readout Chili Peppers. I mean
Speaker 1: that's like had a record out of It's nuts. It's nuts.
Speaker 4: That's dreaming. That's like saying dreams can still happen. You
Speaker 4: got to just like see it and like, you know,
Speaker 4: take a chance, jump off a cliff, like you know,
Speaker 4: imagine that there is things conspiring to make things work out,
Speaker 4: you know, like believing in that process, you know, and
Speaker 4: it's that's a that's something that you get. You know,
Speaker 4: you land on your face eighty percent of the time,
Speaker 4: but then you get those twenty percent where oh shit,
Speaker 4: well that worked out, you know, like and it's it
Speaker 4: becomes you know, it becomes ingrained. And I think we've
Speaker 4: been like that ever since. It's anything could happen. I
Speaker 4: mean we're we've we've been living a dream for you know,
Speaker 4: for a long time. And I think now we really
Speaker 4: are recognizing how lucky and how fortunate we are to
Speaker 4: kind of every day like be like we could think
Speaker 4: of weird art projects or side projects or anything we want,
Speaker 4: you know, like I'm going to go, you know, paint
Speaker 4: for a year or whatever. All of that's possible, you know,
Speaker 4: what I mean. So it's it's it's good. We're still
Speaker 4: in the dream.
Speaker 2: After last break, we'll be back with Stone Gossard and
Speaker 2: Jeff Amen, We're back with the rest of Leo Rose's
Speaker 2: conversation with Jeff Ament and Stone Gossard.
Speaker 3: You talked about when Jeff, when you and Stone met,
Speaker 3: and you sort of felt like you were coming from
Speaker 3: two different worlds when you guys met Eddie and he
Speaker 3: was from San Diego. Did he feel like culturally super
Speaker 3: different from you guys, And were you guys sort of like, oh,
Speaker 3: were music vets in Seattle And was there like kind
Speaker 3: of like a hazing period at all when he came
Speaker 3: into the fold.
Speaker 1: No, I mean I remember, I remember having four or
Speaker 1: five phone conversations with him before he came up, and
Speaker 1: all we were talking about was like not wanting to
Speaker 1: be in a band with people who were slackers like he.
Speaker 1: I remember him talking about, like I want to hit
Speaker 1: the ground running, and like I'm you know, I make
Speaker 1: T shirts and I do this, and I was like,
Speaker 1: I make T shirts and like just sort of like
Speaker 1: before I even really hung out with him, I sort
Speaker 1: of felt like, Wow, there's going to be another guy
Speaker 1: in the band that's going to like be as excited
Speaker 1: about this peripheral stuff as I am. So I think
Speaker 1: before he you know, I mean we had those three
Speaker 1: songs that he had sang over at that point, but
Speaker 1: I was as excited about just him talking about how
Speaker 1: serious he was about it, you know, like that he
Speaker 1: that he you know, and that was what he said
Speaker 1: when he flew up, He said, I want to fuck around,
Speaker 1: I want to go straight to the rehearsal and I
Speaker 1: want to start playing. I don't want to go get
Speaker 1: coffee or I don't want to And so there wasn't
Speaker 1: a lot of time, like we didn't really sit around
Speaker 1: talk about what it was going to be or I
Speaker 1: mean that first week we rehearsed and wrote for four
Speaker 1: or five days. We went in the studio on the
Speaker 1: fifth day, sixth day we played a show at the
Speaker 1: off Ramp, and the seventh day we went inside the
Speaker 1: Bulls and the Sonics at the Kingdom. We really didn't
Speaker 1: talk about what it was or and he even says
Speaker 1: like he when he flew home, he's like, I wonder
Speaker 1: if I'm in the band, you know, Like at that point,
Speaker 1: there was no we just weren't communicating about it so
Speaker 1: pretty awesome.
Speaker 4: I think maybe I picked him up at the airport,
Speaker 4: was that right? Yeah, So I picked him up at
Speaker 4: the airport, and I think the we we said high
Speaker 4: or whatever. And I think I'd talked to him maybe
Speaker 4: once or twice on the phone, not not as much
Speaker 4: as Jeff, but just a little bit or whatever. And
Speaker 4: I think he he handed me something and I opened
Speaker 4: it up and it's like he had drawn me a
Speaker 4: picture and I maybe a little poem or something, but
Speaker 4: I was just like I was totally touched. And that
Speaker 4: was one thing that also was evident about him. He
Speaker 4: was a He had a very sweet demeanor that was
Speaker 4: very you know, I mean, you know, we're so used
Speaker 4: to like the back of the van and just you know,
Speaker 4: fuck you whatever, like you know, that sort of low
Speaker 4: grade you know, competition meets you know, jokes or whatever.
Speaker 4: And he was a serious person who was really thoughtful
Speaker 4: and very like sensitive, and so he was a huge
Speaker 4: breadth of fresh air to kind of just be around
Speaker 4: somebody who was just very He just seemed very thoughtful
Speaker 4: about his process and about people around him and what
Speaker 4: he was doing and conscientious.
Speaker 3: You know, that is so sweet. Yeah, do you think
Speaker 3: that because you both went through sort of a tumultuous
Speaker 3: start with Green River and with Mother Love Bone that
Speaker 3: once Pearl Jam was established, did it feel more solid
Speaker 3: and stable.
Speaker 1: No, I mean, I mean it felt I felt like
Speaker 1: the first three or four years or five six years
Speaker 1: it felt I don't think it ever felt stable.
Speaker 4: It feels stable now, Yeah, pretty stable right now. But
Speaker 4: like literally, like so much, you know, years of moments
Speaker 4: of greatness, moments of like thinking, oh this was awesome
Speaker 4: and had you know, always good shows, always like transcendent moments,
Speaker 4: and you know, but also just it's just a lot
Speaker 4: of stuff and a lot of things coming together that
Speaker 4: always that have to kind of everyone's got to be
Speaker 4: humming together or it's sort of there's always something to
Speaker 4: worry about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think too. I think the moment that I
Speaker 1: stopped caring about like, you know, the importance of me
Speaker 1: in the context of the band, or that as soon
Speaker 1: as I gave up that like I need to get
Speaker 1: songs on the record or I need to my vision
Speaker 1: or whatever. As soon as I gave that up, which
Speaker 1: was probably fifteen years ago or something, that's when it
Speaker 1: felt stable to me. That's when it felt like this
Speaker 1: is all icing, and like, I'm just going to keep
Speaker 1: working hard and hopefully I can like have some weird
Speaker 1: little idea that I can pull the band over into
Speaker 1: my little weirdness. And I have had those moments like
Speaker 1: where you're like, oh my god, I can't believe, like
Speaker 1: the band recorded this idea that I knew was on
Speaker 1: the edge of what we would want to do. But
Speaker 1: it's also going into those situations without any expectation, just
Speaker 1: going like it's like, hey, I got a couple of
Speaker 1: things here, if there's anything here that works, or I
Speaker 1: got this weird idea to a couple of shows, or
Speaker 1: this artwork or this whatever this project is. As soon
Speaker 1: as you don't put any gravity on it, it's like
Speaker 1: and when it happens, it's just like so joyful and
Speaker 1: the stability comes with a joy I think, really.
Speaker 4: But it's true. You this is a band where you
Speaker 4: just have to let go of expectations about it, you know.
Speaker 4: And Ed is our band leader, and he's been an
Speaker 4: amazing band leader. I mean, given the variety of ways
Speaker 4: that band leaders can organize the band. I mean, Ed's written,
Speaker 4: We've written lyrics. All of us individually have written whole
Speaker 4: songs lyrics everything. He's always been this person who's like,
Speaker 4: I'm open to it. You know, you don't get to
Speaker 4: do it by right, you know, you don't get to
Speaker 4: say when you get to do it. But it's all happened,
Speaker 4: you know, and it's all of us have sort of
Speaker 4: asserted ourselves at different times and know what that's like
Speaker 4: and know that that's a It can be satisfying and
Speaker 4: then kind of a dead end at the same time,
Speaker 4: you know, like because you know, there's always a reaction
Speaker 4: to every action, you know. I think, like Jeff said,
Speaker 4: the more you let go of expectations, the more stuff
Speaker 4: kind of just shows up on your plate or somebody says, hey,
Speaker 4: I know you got something. You know, like let's do it.
Speaker 4: Or like this record, like all of us, you know,
Speaker 4: even though a lot of these songs have been kind
Speaker 4: of bastardized and kind of reimagined and you had to
Speaker 4: let go of a lot of stuff, I think all
Speaker 4: of us individually feel like we're represented on this record
Speaker 4: better than we have been maybe ever in terms of
Speaker 4: at least for me, when I listen back, it's like
Speaker 4: I can hear parts I didn't write the song, but
Speaker 4: my part that I loved and it figured out. I'm
Speaker 4: hearing it. I can hear it in the you know,
Speaker 4: it's making an impact in the song. So it's a
Speaker 4: marathon and we're sort of we're in that spot now
Speaker 4: where we can really enjoy it more because you once
Speaker 4: you get used to letting go and seeing why that
Speaker 4: is satisfactory or why that works, you do it more often,
Speaker 4: you know, because we could take two years off fine,
Speaker 4: you know what I mean, like, you know whatever. Nice, Yeah, but.
Speaker 3: It's almost like feels like you need that just to
Speaker 3: kind of reset and live life and come back and
Speaker 3: you have this like special thing that you can come
Speaker 3: back to. Oh my god, it feels like the creative
Speaker 3: itch well.
Speaker 4: And just like seeing your old friends and going, wow,
Speaker 4: we still have this song which is like literally three chords,
Speaker 4: and we go into a room and everyone sings it
Speaker 4: back to us and we just experience that moment of like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 4: we wrote this song and I like it more now
Speaker 4: than ever. And I never actually knew what it was about,
Speaker 4: but now I do, you know, twenty years later, you
Speaker 4: know or whatever.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting how songs can change over time.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, totally.
Speaker 3: Now the new tour, I think you've said that you're
Speaker 3: going to be playing a lot more of the new material.
Speaker 3: Is that sort of feel like a challenge where you
Speaker 3: have to win people over again?
Speaker 4: You know, we've done such variety and such a collectic
Speaker 4: set list for so long that I think our audiences
Speaker 4: read to follow us and be part of the journey
Speaker 4: of whatever we're going to try to do. And I
Speaker 4: think the material that we just wrote is really strong, don't.
Speaker 4: I think that there's not going to be any you know,
Speaker 4: let down between the material, and you know that on
Speaker 4: any given night or any given tour, it's like there's
Speaker 4: always another one. So we've had plenty of not great shows.
Speaker 4: We've had plenty of nights where we were flat and
Speaker 4: you just pick yourself up and do a better job
Speaker 4: the next day and something good happened. So you know,
Speaker 4: at this point, I think we're all confident that we
Speaker 4: can go out and kind of have fun. And we're
Speaker 4: not out that much. We don't play that many shows,
Speaker 4: so it's it stays fresh and it's going to be fun.
Speaker 3: Do you have any pre show rituals? Do you listen
Speaker 3: to anything before you go on stage? Do you eat
Speaker 3: something specific? Do you have to like do a certain
Speaker 3: warm up, Like what are you doing to get yourself
Speaker 3: psyched up for the night.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think everybody has a different
Speaker 1: routine and a different diet, and I certainly do. I
Speaker 1: certainly feel like I if I kind of you know,
Speaker 1: if I eat before soundcheck and then I soundcheck, and
Speaker 1: then if there's some there's usually two or three songs
Speaker 1: on this on the set list that we haven't played
Speaker 1: or we maybe we haven't sound check, so then there's
Speaker 1: like some woodshedding going on, and then there's you know,
Speaker 1: a little you work out, a little bit, a little stretching,
Speaker 1: But we all have different sort of patterns as far
Speaker 1: as that goes, So sometimes that part can be tricky
Speaker 1: because the space is tight.
Speaker 3: But so you're all together in like one room.
Speaker 1: Pretty pretty much, Yeah, pretty much. I mean Ed has
Speaker 1: a room that he can sort of that he can
Speaker 1: go get away from us and and sort of craft
Speaker 1: the you know, fine tune the set list. But then
Speaker 1: there's a you know, there's like a little workout meditation
Speaker 1: room that we sort of can go in and out of. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I can't. I can't really go on stage
Speaker 1: with a full stomach, and you know, it's like, I
Speaker 1: don't want to be like burping up onions like in
Speaker 1: the middle of a song or so. And I think
Speaker 1: the I think the older you get to, like the
Speaker 1: I don't know, the more ritualistic that you are about it.
Speaker 1: It's like you you know it works, and you know
Speaker 1: it doesn't work. And you know, I think I heard
Speaker 1: did you interview Duff?
Speaker 3: Yeah I did, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I heard you talk about he was talking about
Speaker 1: you know, it's like like being an athlete or whatever.
Speaker 3: Totally ice is his legs with ice buckets after.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do all. I mean, I've done
Speaker 1: all that stuff like ice baths for twenty years or
Speaker 1: something afterwards or whatever. But but but also waking up
Speaker 1: early the next morning, getting to the gym and just
Speaker 1: moving and you know, it's like in the days that
Speaker 1: you don't do that, you kind of pay for it.
Speaker 1: You get end up getting on stage and you can't
Speaker 1: move the way you want to because you're fifty something
Speaker 1: years old my case sixty one. Yeah, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think Duff just got off doing like you know,
Speaker 1: probably a couple hundred shows in the last three years
Speaker 1: with guns and roses, so he's three more than that. Right,
Speaker 1: Oh my god, they worked played Missoula, Montana. I mean
Speaker 1: that's so the dutiary they got.
Speaker 3: What about you Stone? What's your pre show? Right?
Speaker 4: You know? I don't. I don't really have any pre show.
Speaker 4: I think, uh, it's I need one. I need some
Speaker 4: more pre show stuff. I think that's right. Jack Blocks
Speaker 4: Year one I'll watch on repeat. Me and Mike sort
Speaker 4: of can't stop watching it. I'm not sure it's the
Speaker 4: something about that movie. I just can't stop watching it.
Speaker 4: But I just try to stay light and try to
Speaker 4: not get to in my head about worrying about it
Speaker 4: or you know. And I think that's for me the
Speaker 4: biggest you know, Uh, if I start to kind of
Speaker 4: think too much or get to inside my own head
Speaker 4: about it, that's when usually things aren't going wrong. So
Speaker 4: just having some lightness and just sort of easygoingness about
Speaker 4: it and feeling like it's just playing our songs and
Speaker 4: you know, and just go out there and be ready.
Speaker 4: And I'm I'm looking forward to this tour. I want
Speaker 4: to even be lighter about it all, you know, because
Speaker 4: I think I've spent a lot of time worrying about
Speaker 4: it and not feeling kind of worthy of a lot.
Speaker 4: You know, like there's nothing worse than having a you know,
Speaker 4: a place go ballistic when you and your mind feel
Speaker 4: like you're sucking or the band is just totally laying
Speaker 4: there and not really doing anything, but the crowd is
Speaker 4: you know, to have like all these people pay money
Speaker 4: and be excited. You know, it's like if you're if
Speaker 4: you're feeling like you're not really giving them that. So
Speaker 4: I feel good about this new material for sure.
Speaker 3: Is there a spot in the tour that is ideal
Speaker 3: to see Pearl Jam? Like should you go see the
Speaker 3: band in the beginning of the run, middle or near
Speaker 3: the end?
Speaker 1: A little Rock Arkansas? Oh no, we're not playing Little
Speaker 1: Rock this year.
Speaker 4: I was second. Second markets are always you know that
Speaker 4: to me, it's like that's where kind of where we
Speaker 4: aren't the pressure is off, so good things can happen.
Speaker 1: You know, you don't have any like family or friends
Speaker 1: at the show.
Speaker 4: It's not like you know the best Yeah, and you
Speaker 4: never know it goes you know, it's a natural cycle.
Speaker 4: We'll have some good nights and some nights that are
Speaker 4: a little bit whatever, not as good, and you can't
Speaker 4: predict them. Yeah, you know, the old adage is great
Speaker 4: soundcheck terrible show. You ever heard that before? That's oh yeah.
Speaker 4: You got to be careful when you go out there
Speaker 4: and just like smoke a sound check and you're just like,
Speaker 4: oh shit, this tonight is going to be just so good.
Speaker 4: It's like watch it. Just when that happens, it's good
Speaker 4: to watch out.
Speaker 3: Is there anything else? I know, you guys only have
Speaker 3: an hour. Is there anything else you want to talk
Speaker 3: about about the new album? I know I skipped like
Speaker 3: thirty years of your career.
Speaker 4: No, this was great. It was such a nice It
Speaker 4: was nice to visit with you and to visit with
Speaker 4: you too, Jeff, Yeah, yeah, this is our first interview
Speaker 4: that we've done together on this album cycle. So oh
Speaker 4: you've done a lot of these together over the years, though.
Speaker 1: But it's it. This is my favorite part. Like when
Speaker 1: you do the first couple with at least one other
Speaker 1: person in the band, it's it's when you start to
Speaker 1: understand the record because at this point, it's just you
Speaker 1: listening to your parts and listening to the songs and
Speaker 1: you you interpreting, and so when you do it with
Speaker 1: somebody else, you just get this other perspective and sometimes
Speaker 1: your unique perspective is completely wrong. So it's nice.
Speaker 3: Well, I hope you have a ton of fun on
Speaker 3: the tour. It sounds like you're super into the album
Speaker 3: and everyone's re energized. Yeah, thanks so much for doing this.
Speaker 3: I appreciate you.
Speaker 4: Thank you very much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, nice talking to you.
Speaker 2: Thanks to Stone, Gossard and Jeff Ament for going deep
Speaker 2: on their legacy in Pearl Jam's new album, Dark Matter.
Speaker 2: You can hear it along with our favorite Pearl Jam
Speaker 2: songs on the playlist at broken Record podcast dot com.
Speaker 2: Will also include some other songs from Stone and Jeff's career.
Speaker 2: Subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash
Speaker 2: Broken Record Podcast, where you can find all of our
Speaker 2: new episodes. You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record.
Speaker 2: Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose, with
Speaker 2: marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer
Speaker 2: is Ben Tolliday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries.
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Speaker 2: Our theme music's back Anny Beats. I'm justin Richmond,