1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: I remember every detail, down to the color of the 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: grass or what flower was in the vase. Have you 3 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:16,479 Speaker 1: ever had your brain it'll be thinking of memories, and 4 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: it's almost like if you open a book and you 5 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: flip through the pages so fast, and it's like clips 6 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: of memories in my brain. Like I'll be awake during 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: the day and just like and it can be like 8 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:34,240 Speaker 1: a memory of us sewing in the sewing room, or 9 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: doing something in the kitchen, or we didn't go to 10 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: the dentist so they had the dentist tools to kind 11 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 1: of clean our teeth, you know, a memory of that, 12 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: just a little random things. 13 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 2: There's a stickiness to Lindsay's memories. Images and phrases crop 14 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 2: up again and again, sometimes unprompted. These memories are vivid, 15 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 2: and there's this one memory that feels like a tiny 16 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 2: encapsulation of so many things Lindsay faced back then. A 17 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 2: memory we came back to several times. It's from her 18 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 2: early days as a maiden, a time she could have 19 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 2: gotten help, when someone could have seen something was off. 20 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: I had to go to the dentist. I think I'd 21 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: like a really bad cavity or something like that. 22 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 2: This was back when the maidens were still allowed to 23 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 2: go to the dentist, they weren't using their own dental 24 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:32,559 Speaker 2: tools yet. 25 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: My mom had to take me because I'm only fourteen. 26 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: And I remember being in the dentist office in the chair, 27 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: and the dental assistant noticed the ring, the gold ring 28 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: Victor had given her in this spiritual marriage ceremony to 29 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: mark her commitment to him. She said how pretty it 30 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: was and asked me about it then what it meant, 31 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: and I froze. I didn't know what to say. I 32 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: was not prepared for that question, and you know, I 33 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: was also like scared of the outside world now too, 34 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: just so afraid of pretty much everything. And my mother 35 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: answered for me. She told the lady that it represented 36 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 1: just my service in the church, and you know that 37 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: I had made a commitment to serve in our church 38 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: and everything. And the lady was like, oh, that, you know, 39 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: that's great. I remember we didn't really talk on the 40 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: ride home, like my mom and I didn't say anything 41 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: to each other, but she told Victor what had happened. 42 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: And I got in trouble because I wasn't prepared to 43 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: defend myself and that I didn't have an answer to 44 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: give to these people. He was definitely angry. Basically, he 45 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: told me, I needed to be prepared because we didn't 46 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: want anyone maybe even getting an inkling that something wasn't right. 47 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: I needed to make sure that I was ready to 48 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: have an answer if that happened again. 49 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 2: At this moment, maybe Lindsay's mom saw an opportunity to 50 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 2: show her loyalty to Victor, to live in the light, 51 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 2: as Victor would say, even if it meant turning in 52 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 2: her own daughter. The person she was protecting here was Victor. 53 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 2: Lindsay was the liability. Now on the outside, Lindsay would 54 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 2: have to figure things out, like how to interact with 55 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 2: a mom who had treated her this way. She'd have 56 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 2: to decide what kind of a mother she would be, 57 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 2: how to spend her time, who to trust, how to 58 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 2: move on from her Cocoa Punch and iHeart podcasts. This 59 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 2: is the Turning River Road, I'm Alan Lance Lesser and 60 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 2: I Ammerica Lance Part ten Beyond Fear. For most of 61 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 2: Lindsay's life, she'd been told who to be and what 62 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 2: to believe. Then, once she was finally out, she'd experimented 63 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 2: and explored, totally drenched in her newfound freedom. Now she 64 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: had to start settling into who she was. Lindsay had 65 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 2: what was perhaps the first chance ever to build her 66 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 2: own identity. What would she discard from the past and 67 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 2: what would she keep? After Lindsay left River Road, she 68 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 2: went to therapy and one of the topics that came 69 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 2: up a lot was her relationship with her mom. Her 70 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 2: therapist encouraged her to write a letter to her mom, 71 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 2: not to send it, but just to write it as 72 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 2: an exercise. 73 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: Just for me to get my feelings out, let us 74 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: to get that business one. Oh yep, right here. This 75 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 1: was written September eighteenth, twenty twelve. Oh boy, some of 76 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: this I might not be proud of. I think it's 77 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: pretty harsh. But here we go. Dear mom, or is 78 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: that what I should even call you? I feel like 79 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: I haven't really had a mom for the past twelve years. 80 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: I thought a mother was supposed to protect her children 81 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: and love them and nurture them. Remember when the sheep 82 00:05:57,920 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: used to have lambs and how they would protect their 83 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: base when the dogs came around. I thought that's what 84 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:04,359 Speaker 1: real mothers were supposed to do. 85 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 3: One of the things that hurts me the most is 86 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 3: that when I came to talk to you and Dad 87 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,119 Speaker 3: the first time. You didn't even give me a chance 88 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 3: to tell you the pain that I was living in 89 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 3: and the hurt that I have. You didn't even give 90 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 3: me one chance. All you said was, whatever you have 91 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 3: to say, you can tell your dad. I don't want 92 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 3: to hear it. You didn't even say you were sorry 93 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 3: that I had to go through that as a child. 94 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 3: Do you know how much that hurt me? What kind 95 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 3: of a mother are you? On the other hand, I'm 96 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 3: going to be a great mother. Someday. My kids are 97 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 3: going to be so loved, and I will support them 98 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 3: and protect them with my life, which my real mother 99 00:06:53,800 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 3: never did for me. Maybe Christ will come back in five, 100 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 3: ten or twenty years, who knows. But if my kids 101 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 3: want to go to the Olympics, go to college, be 102 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 3: a lawyer, or a musician, I will do everything possible 103 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 3: to help them achieve their dreams and goals. You will 104 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 3: never ever be a part of their life ever. This 105 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 3: may hurt you, but this is how I feel, and 106 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 3: I'm learning through my therapist to get my feelings out 107 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 3: and not hide them like I did for so many years. 108 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 3: Oh and if you are going to stick with Victor, 109 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 3: you are sick and you have obviously decided to stay 110 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 3: with my rapist who calls himself an apostle. Have a 111 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 3: good life, goodbye oof. I haven't heard that, and probably 112 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 3: since then, I thought maybe I would regret writing some things, 113 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 3: but I don't honestly. 114 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 2: Lindsay wrote this letter in twenty twelve, the years she 115 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 2: told her parents about the abuse. That same year, her mom, Peggy, 116 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 2: decided to leave Lindsay's dad. According to what he told police, 117 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 2: he was totally surprised when he came home to find 118 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 2: divorce papers in their mailbox. 119 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 4: Peggy left no note, gave. 120 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 2: No warning she was gone. She'd moved out to Washington 121 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 2: to be near other River Road members. A few years later, 122 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 2: once Victor was in jail, she visited him, called him 123 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 2: on the phone. Peggy clearly still supported Victor, so it 124 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 2: surprised Lindsay when she received a voicemail from Peggy. It 125 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,839 Speaker 2: was twenty sixteen, in the days leading up to victor 126 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 2: sentencing hearing. Lindsay's daughter, Frankie was two years old. 127 00:08:55,880 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 5: Hello, Lindy is his mom, and I just wanted to 128 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 5: tell you that I've been thinking so much of you 129 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,559 Speaker 5: and that I'm sorry for happing away over the last 130 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 5: few years, and that I love you a lot and 131 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 5: miss you a lot, and like I've never met Frankie, 132 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 5: but I wanted to know if you guys had any 133 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 5: needs that I could help with. If you want to 134 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 5: call me or text me, that would be great, and 135 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 5: hopefully I'll hear from you. Okay, I love you. 136 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: I remember when I first heard this, I was like, 137 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: over the last few years, what happened to almost the 138 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: majority of my life that you weren't there. I don't 139 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: know the fact that she thought me hearing that would 140 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: somehow want to reach out to her after she completely 141 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 1: took Victor's side. Yeah, at the time, it just didn't 142 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: feel genuine. Now it still doesn't even feel genuine. And 143 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: then to have the guts to say and I've never 144 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: met Frankie, Well, no shit, you know. Like, I'm not 145 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: crying about it because doesn't make me sad. It just 146 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: like makes me angry. I couldn't imagine being a mother 147 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: and putting my daughter through so much evil and abuse 148 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: and then supporting Victor all the way through the trial 149 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: and then leaving a voicemail like this. 150 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 2: Lindsay never called Peggy back after that voicemail, she didn't 151 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 2: want her parents in her life. She decided to cut 152 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 2: them off. She never looked back. Lindsay's siblings and other 153 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 2: family members are another story. They still support them. 154 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: There's family members who still defend my parents and would say, oh, 155 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,839 Speaker 1: they were just brainwashed. Was demon possession. They didn't know 156 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 1: what they were doing. My aunt, one of her sisters, 157 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: said it to me yesterday, Oh, Peggy was just brainwashed. 158 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: She didn't know what she was doing. If she was 159 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: in her right mind, she wouldn't have done that at all. 160 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: And I got off the phone call thinking, one, how 161 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: dare you say that to me? How hurtful? All these years, 162 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: it just seems like an excuse. You were adults, you 163 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:42,839 Speaker 1: do have control, But wasn't like they were born into this. 164 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: My parents were, I had lived a normal upbringing with 165 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: their families. And were you really brainwashed? Or is that 166 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: just an excuse you say because you don't want to 167 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: face the reality that you did such an awful thing 168 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: in letting the man rape your daughter for all those years, 169 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: I was wrestling with that one today. I don't know. 170 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: I just it's something that especially like my family members 171 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: and I always think if you guys had seen this 172 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: on the news and it was some people you didn't 173 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: even know, you probably would be like, oh my gosh, 174 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: they deserve to be in jail. How could they? But 175 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: because your blood related that somehow excuses them from this 176 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: terrible crime that they committed. Really, I hope every single 177 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: one of them listen to this, this whole thing, because 178 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: the majority of them, I don't think. Really, I want 179 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 1: to know what happened, and they should. 180 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 4: Hello, Hey Lindsay Deerica. Hi, Hey, how are you doing good? 181 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 6: How are you? 182 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 4: I'm good? Yeah, recently Lindsay said she needed to talk, 183 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 4: so we got on the phone. 184 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 6: I feel like I've lived a month in these past 185 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 6: two and a half weeks because trying to process this, 186 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 6: it's been crazy. 187 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: I'm just going to jump right into what's been going on. 188 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, totally. 189 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 7: I got a text. 190 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 6: From one of my aunts that said my mom was 191 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 6: being rushed. 192 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 7: To the hospital. She had a heart attack. 193 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,359 Speaker 6: Oh and. 194 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 7: It's really. 195 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 8: Weird, you know, I think my emotions. I wasn't really 196 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,839 Speaker 8: hearing about what was going on with Peggy, my mother. 197 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 8: So I finally reached out to one of my sisters 198 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 8: on Wednesday. She told me that she had just landed 199 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,839 Speaker 8: in Philly and was going to go see my mom 200 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 8: and would. 201 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 7: Keep me updated. 202 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 6: So then she did text me the next day Thursday, 203 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 6: and said that unfortunately she had suffered in an oxid 204 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 6: brain injury, so I guess she was out of oxygen 205 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 6: for about thirty minutes, so she was declared brain dead. 206 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 6: My one aunt, the one who supports Peggy. 207 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: All of my siblings were staying at. 208 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 8: Their beach house while my mom was in the hospital 209 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 8: and knowing. 210 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 6: That they all like support my mom. 211 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 8: And they're talking about things, but like just feeling like 212 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 8: the outcast again. 213 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 4: One of Lindsay's sisters wrote on Facebook about what an 214 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 4: incredible mom Peggy was, that she made each of her 215 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 4: kids feel special, that she was always there for them. 216 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 4: Lindsay thought, why couldn't my mom do that for me? 217 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,239 Speaker 4: She had some people in her corner, two in particular, 218 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 4: her Aunt Francis and Aunt Bird, two of Peggy's sisters. 219 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 4: Aunt Francis was the first person Lindsay called when she 220 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 4: heard the news about her mom. Lindsay told her she 221 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 4: wasn't sure she wanted to go to her mom's funeral. 222 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 9: I said, the only way I will go is if 223 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 9: you decide you want to go and bird and I 224 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 9: will be holding your hand. 225 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 4: But Aunt Francis warned Lindsay to really envision how that 226 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 4: would feel to go there on the day and hear 227 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 4: everyone showering Peggy with praise. After some thinking, Lindsay decided 228 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 4: not to go, so instead of going themselves, her two 229 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 4: aunts acted fast and got flights to visit Lindsay. They 230 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 4: would be with her on the day of the funeral. 231 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 7: We were so excited on the plane, can't wait to 232 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 7: see Linda's muse them be so much phone. 233 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: We would tell everybody we're from Pennsylvania, but we're going 234 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: down to see our niece Lindsay. 235 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 7: We were like little school girls, like we can't wait. 236 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 4: When they landed, Lindsay picked them up at the airport. 237 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 10: We were tracking her on fine My She'd be coming 238 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 10: around the corner, coming around the corner, and all of 239 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 10: a sudden. 240 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 7: And we're like, we saw them. Frankie, My daughter calls Francis. Francois. 241 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 7: Frankie rolls down the road. She's like Fris whaz yelling. 242 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 7: She's like they're hearing Mom. 243 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna jump out and go get them I'm like, no, 244 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: stay in the car. 245 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 7: We were so exciting. 246 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 4: Lindsay and her aunt streams the funeral online. It was 247 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 4: painful to hear all these wonderful things said about her mom. 248 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 4: One of Lindsay's sisters called Peggy her hero, but Lindsay 249 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 4: had Francis and dant Bird. 250 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 10: You hear of these cults and you think, how could 251 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 10: anybody be drawn into that? 252 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 7: And then your sister is and it's like, what, Like. 253 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 10: It's mindful because we grew up in a normal Catholic 254 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 10: family with normal everything, middle. 255 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:11,640 Speaker 9: Class, We were supported, we were all involved in extracurriculars, 256 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 9: We did well in school. 257 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 7: It just doesn't make any sense. 258 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 4: Ant Bird remembers when her sister Peggy wrote them all 259 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 4: a letter to say she and her family were moving 260 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 4: to Minnesota. 261 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 10: It was a letter that said, we're strong in our beliefs. 262 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 10: If you try to write us and try to dissuade 263 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,360 Speaker 10: us from our beliefs, we will end conversation. You will 264 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 10: never have contact with us again. You will not be 265 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 10: able to talk to our children. We all sort of 266 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 10: were stepping on eggshells to make sure that we didn't 267 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 10: completely sever the communications. So we knew from day one 268 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:49,400 Speaker 10: that it was a cull. 269 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 4: Ant Bird visited Lindsay's family once in two thousand out 270 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 4: in Minnesota. 271 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 10: And I drive up and the kids were just standing there. 272 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 10: They didn't put their arms up to hug me, nothing, 273 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 10: and I hadn't seen them in two years, and they 274 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 10: just looked at me. 275 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 7: And Peggy said, you won't be seeing Lindsay this visit. 276 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 10: And I was like, what do you mean, it's been 277 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,640 Speaker 10: two years. We're in Minnesota, and she said, you won't 278 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 10: be seeing her. She's living on the camp with some families. 279 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 10: And I was just like, so it was a terrible visit. 280 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 10: Peggy was on my heels. She would not let me 281 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 10: be in the bedroom with the kids with a door 282 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 10: of him. 283 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 4: Antbird knew these kids their whole lives, and now she 284 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 4: wasn't allowed to speak to them when they sat at 285 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:47,199 Speaker 4: the table together. The kids wouldn't talk directly to Antbird. 286 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 4: They'd ask their parents questions about her, and their parents 287 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 4: would respond for her, like the kids weren't allowed to 288 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 4: talk directly to her. 289 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 7: As we were leaving, going down the lane, I was bawling. 290 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 10: We went back to the hotel and I just I 291 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 10: took a shower, and I was just crying in the 292 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 10: shower to my husband, like, why can't we see Lindsay? 293 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,719 Speaker 10: I said, what if she's pregnant and they don't want 294 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 10: us to see her because she's pregnant. She's only thirteen, 295 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 10: And I thought, I know that's a four out thought, 296 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 10: but why if after two years can't we see her? 297 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,959 Speaker 7: So at that point, I felt like I lost my sister. 298 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 4: Ant Bird's husband actually called the local police to check 299 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 4: in on them. They told him they knew the group 300 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 4: was there, but they didn't really have the grounds to 301 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 4: do anything. But now that Lindsay is out, Aunt Bird 302 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 4: and Aunt Francis want to be there for her. 303 00:19:55,800 --> 00:20:01,199 Speaker 7: I will never not support my niece. I know I 304 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 7: say it a lot, but you truly are so strong, so. 305 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 9: Strong, and I was so proud of her. 306 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 4: In the years since leaving River Road Fellowship, Lindsay had 307 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 4: stopped relying on the family she'd been born into. She 308 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 4: looked for family in other places. Maybe that meant finding 309 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 4: a partner. 310 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: I just want that old school love that I saw 311 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: in my grandparents. I just wanted to be grand. 312 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 4: When she got her first boyfriend, she wondered when to 313 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 4: bring up her past and how. 314 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: I really really liked him, and he was so handsome. 315 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: He really was great personality, killer smile, great hair, good family. 316 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 1: In the beginning, it was like we were just in sync. 317 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: I definitely felt like I was falling for him for sure. 318 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 1: I think I just remember feeling that I wanted to 319 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: be open and honest with him. I really wanted him 320 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: to know me and know what I was going through 321 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: at that time. I wanted him to be there for me. 322 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: We were in his room, just hanging out. I finally 323 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 1: told him what had happened, and not even in super detail, 324 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: but just you know. I was in a religious cult 325 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: when I was little, and my parents gave me a 326 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 1: way at thirteen years old to be like a spiritual 327 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 1: wife to the leader and being raped all those years. 328 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: And he said, well, you must have liked it to 329 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: stay there for so long. Now, when we have sex, 330 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 1: all I'm going to think about is you and Victor. 331 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: I broke up with him immediately, just almost shocked that 332 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: that would be his response. I was not expecting that 333 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: at all, and so I think maybe part of that 334 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: is still somewhere, you know, buried deep inside, where the 335 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: thought of dating and opening myself up so raw and 336 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 1: to a person who will know me inside it out. 337 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: Maybe that's somewhat of a small fear that just being 338 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,439 Speaker 1: I don't know, rejected like that again, Yeah it was. 339 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: I couldn't believe he said that. 340 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 4: So dating on the back burner, and it stayed there 341 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 4: for a while. So did religion. 342 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: I got to the point where I wanted nothing to 343 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 1: do with God if he was real, Like, why why 344 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: did he leave me there for so long when I 345 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: was praying when I tried to leave? Why he would 346 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 1: allow this to happen? I just felt like every time 347 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: I heard somebody read the Bible, all I could hear 348 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 1: was Victor's voice reading it. 349 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 4: Lindsay focused on other things in her life. She went 350 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,640 Speaker 4: to college. She took a sex crimes in the law 351 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 4: class and shared her story with the other students. She 352 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 4: was amazed by the response. People cried, they asked questions, 353 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 4: shared their own experiences. Lindsay found it healing. She mostly 354 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 4: stayed away from religion for more than a decade, but 355 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 4: then she moved to Texas and made friends with some 356 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,199 Speaker 4: neighbors who were involved in a church. Even though these 357 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 4: neighbors were religious, she felt no pressure to join. One night, 358 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 4: she was over at their place for dinner. 359 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: We were sitting after dinner and I said, this is 360 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: going to sound crazy, but thank you for never inviting 361 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:04,680 Speaker 1: me to Bible study. 362 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 7: And I was. 363 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: Serious, and she started crying and was like, Lindsay, when 364 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: you told me your story for the first time, I 365 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: went home and wept, just tears of justice because I 366 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: was so angry for you that that's the way that 367 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 1: you heard about the Lord. Because the God I know 368 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: is full of. 369 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 4: Love, God's love. The idea to Lindsay was so strange. 370 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 4: Now God's love, God's love. It was all Victor and 371 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 4: the elders and everyone around her talked about. But it 372 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 4: was also the phrase used for abuse, for the criticism 373 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 4: and control, and even for the sexual assault. Victor literally 374 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 4: called it God's love and what kind of love is that? 375 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 4: After dinner, Lindsay's neighbors asked her to stay for their 376 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 4: evening devotions, Bible reading and prayers. They happened to sing 377 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 4: a hymn that Lindsay knew. 378 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: I went home and I opened my Bible and it 379 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 1: was like coming home to an old friend. I remember 380 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 1: crying and sitting there thinking, I can't believe you still 381 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: love me. 382 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 4: Some former members of River Road don't want anything to 383 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 4: do with religion now. But after that night, Lindsay took 384 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 4: a step she never thought she would. She decided to 385 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 4: try religion again. 386 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,719 Speaker 1: I think maybe in the back of my mind, I 387 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 1: was looking for something more meaningful in life, you know, 388 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 1: seeing these people who seemed so fulfilled and content, I 389 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 1: was maybe like searching for that, hungry for that. 390 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 4: Lindsay attended church with the family in Texas. It was 391 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 4: a Baptist church with a simple interior, gray walls and 392 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 4: tan carpet, lines of chairs face to stage. When I 393 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 4: look at pictures of the church now, I see how 394 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 4: it might have felt more familiar to Lindsay than some 395 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 4: morenately decorated church. It reminds me of the photos I 396 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 4: saw of early days at the Shepherd's Camp. People standing 397 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 4: in front on the stage with guitars, dressed in jeans 398 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 4: and sweats, nothing too fancy. She and her neighbors sat 399 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 4: near the back, and while they were singing a song, 400 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 4: Lindsay began to cry. Her neighbor looked over at her 401 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:21,120 Speaker 4: and grabbed her hand. 402 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 1: And I know that maybe sounds weird or some people like, oh, 403 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: how could she even you know, trust those kind of 404 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 1: people again. But the timing was just perfect. God loves me, 405 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 1: He loves my daughter no matter what. The struggles I 406 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: still have, has just been such a comfort. 407 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 4: When Lindsay was twenty seven years old and pregnant with Frankie, 408 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 4: she watched the show Gilmore Girls a lot. She thought, 409 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 4: maybe this is what her future could look like. Laura 410 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 4: li I and Rory, a young mom and her daughter, 411 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 4: always laughing together, always close. Lindsay was so scared back then, 412 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 4: fresh out of a cult and unsure what her future 413 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 4: would be like. But now years later, she says, she 414 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 4: and Frankie have this special bond. 415 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,119 Speaker 1: When I think of my daughter's and n relationship, She's 416 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 1: nine and I was looking at her yesterday. You're watching 417 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 1: a movie last night, looking at her sweet face and thinking, 418 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this is the age that I'm at. 419 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:36,399 Speaker 3: Victor. 420 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 1: It just hit me in that moment that is crazy 421 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 1: to me. And from that day on, like from the 422 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: moment we met him at age nine, our lives were 423 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 1: slowly changing. We've had talks already, you know, about strangers, 424 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 1: inappropriate people, even at school. You know, if the nurse 425 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: asks her to do something, you know, like saying no, 426 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: like talking to me about it, like being very open. 427 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,239 Speaker 1: We have really good talks about this stuff. And I 428 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 1: think back, I'm like, why did I not feel like 429 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:16,679 Speaker 1: I could go to my mom? And every time I 430 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: go looking for the answer, I don't think my mom 431 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: had conversations like this with us that I have with 432 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: her now. 433 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 4: Lindsay says in River Road Fellowship, no one did the 434 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 4: children there. 435 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: It seemed like you were being conditioned to not have 436 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: a voice of your own. So even if you did 437 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: bring something up that maybe you felt wasn't right, if 438 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: it didn't align with what Victor the adults were saying, 439 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: then you were shut down. One thing that I can't 440 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: stand is the silent treatment. And I saw I would 441 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: never ever do that with Francesca. There were a lot 442 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,239 Speaker 1: of times and I would get in trouble and just 443 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: get the silent treatment. Victor wouldn't talk to you and 444 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: really give you the cold shoulder, and I wouldn't even 445 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: understand what I had done to deserve. 446 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 2: That, and him doing that made it a norm to 447 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 2: ignore children too. 448 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like there is this. I don't know 449 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: if it would be like a stigma in society or whatever. 450 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,959 Speaker 1: But it almost is like, oh, well, they're not an 451 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: adult yet. They don't know what they're thinking, they don't 452 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: even know what they're feeling. They're just acting out when 453 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: really they are a person. 454 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 3: You know. 455 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: When I got saved and baptized, I had to write 456 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: my testimony, you know, so that the pastor could share 457 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: it with the church. 458 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 4: Beforehand, the pastor asked Lindsay to share the story of 459 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 4: what happened to her in River Road. 460 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: I realized in that moment that I had not told 461 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: Frankie anything and some of that stuff was in there. 462 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: And talking to some friends of mine, they said this 463 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: might be a good opportunity, you know, Saturday night, read 464 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: it to her what's going to be read, and then 465 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: talk about some things. And so we sat down Saturday 466 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: night and and in my testimony and talked about how 467 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: my parents gave me away to be a concubine, which 468 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: people who are older would understand that word. I knew 469 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: she wouldn't, so and like how hard it was. And 470 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: she grabbed my hand as I was reading it to 471 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: her and just like started rubbing my hand. And when 472 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: we got done, she said, Mommy, were you really sad 473 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: when your parents gave you away and I said yeah, 474 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: she like gave me such a big hug. She's like, Mommy, 475 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: I am so so sorry that you had to go 476 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: through that. You started asking questions. She's like, well, when 477 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: I go to my new Christian school and the teacher 478 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: starts saying something, how am I going to know it's 479 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: not twisted like Victor taught? And I was like, that's 480 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: such such a good question, Like at her age to 481 00:30:59,000 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: be thinking like that. 482 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 4: She told Frankie to talk to her if she ever 483 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 4: has a weird feeling. She said, they can always talk 484 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 4: to someone else too. But it's a fair question. Can 485 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 4: Lindsay and Frankie trust the leaders they follow going forward? 486 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 4: How do they differentiate what's twisted? What kind of checks 487 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 4: are there on that? These are questions they'll have to 488 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 4: keep asking. I imagine it could be difficult, an emotional 489 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 4: challenge every day to figure out who Lindsay can look 490 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 4: up to, who she can trust. 491 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: A couple months later, we were talking about what superpowers 492 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: we would want, and she's like, I would want to 493 00:31:53,240 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: go back in time to nineteen ninety six, and we 494 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 1: were with people all that time, so I didn't I 495 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 1: didn't question it. But I was like ninety six. I 496 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: wonder why she said that, and I asked her later 497 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: and she's like, I want to go back then, because 498 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: I would change it so that your parents never met Victor. 499 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: And like it just ough. 500 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 9: She is. 501 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: So sweet, so kind. 502 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:30,959 Speaker 4: It's amazing how she gets it. 503 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 11: Yeah, yeah, it really is. 504 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 4: And she gets it clearly in a way that some 505 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 4: other people haven't gotten it. 506 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 2: And even full fledged adults. 507 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, I know, I haven't gotten it. 508 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. 509 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 4: Frankie's school had a father daughter dance recently. Dad's not 510 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 4: in the picture, so Lindsay decided to go the first 511 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 4: school that let her go to the dance. It was 512 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 4: also the first time Lindsay would ever go to a 513 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 4: dance herself. Lindsay curled Frankie's hair, swiped a tiny bit 514 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 4: of mescare on her eyelashes at the dance. Watching her 515 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 4: daughter laugh in her new dress, it really hit her. 516 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,479 Speaker 4: Frankie was going to experience so many things that Lindsay 517 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 4: never could, and that didn't make her sad, It made 518 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 4: her happy. Lindsay couldn't stop smiling in happy moments with 519 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 4: her daughter Frankie. Lindsay doesn't think about Victor, but The 520 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 4: reality is Victor still exists in this world, serving time 521 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 4: in prison. We reached out to him ourselves, but he 522 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 4: declined to speak with us. When he began his sentence 523 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 4: in Minnesota, his reputation as a cult leader and sex 524 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 4: offender preceded him. He started leading religious services inside. It 525 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 4: seems Victor couldn't help but try to play the role 526 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 4: of a prophet. But in twenty seventeen, Victor faced a 527 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 4: reckoning when another prisoner attacked him. You can see it 528 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:30,359 Speaker 4: on video. The man entered Victor's cell from the main 529 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 4: room where the other prisoners were. Forty seconds later, the 530 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 4: guy left the cell. Everything seemed normal, He just walked away. 531 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 4: Four minutes later, the prison guard checked the cell with 532 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 4: a flashlight. She immediately called out on her radio. The 533 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,800 Speaker 4: scene was graphic. Blood smeared all over the floor covering 534 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 4: Victor's face, red stains on his white T shirt. He 535 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 4: was barely conscious. His injuries included a punctured lung and 536 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 4: a traumatic brain injury. After that, he was moved out 537 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 4: of state to another prison at an undisclosed location. In 538 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 4: a TV interview, the man who attacked Victor said he 539 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 4: didn't attack him because of what Victor was in for 540 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 4: Although he was well aware of Victor's reputation, he said 541 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,280 Speaker 4: he attacked him because Victor put him in a position 542 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 4: where he had to confront him. He says Victor would 543 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 4: stare him down that even the other prisoners noticed. He said, quote, 544 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:31,879 Speaker 4: I'm going to say this as clearly as I can. 545 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 4: Victor Bernard is a master manipulator of unprecedented scale. Victor 546 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 4: Bernard had an agenda, and he only miscalculated in one area, 547 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 4: and one area only when he picked out the person 548 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 4: he was going to have a confrontation with. He picked 549 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 4: out the wrong person. He picked me. He thinks Victor 550 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 4: planned the whole thing, baited him so that Victor could 551 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 4: be moved out of state to a facility where he 552 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 4: could be separated from other prisoners. The attacker had a 553 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:04,800 Speaker 4: message for viewers, quote, wake up, there's evil out there. 554 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 4: It wasn't a human being that was in pain. It 555 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 4: was evil that was in pain. Victor is still in prison, 556 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 4: but he might not be forever. 557 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:21,439 Speaker 1: So it looks like. 558 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 2: In twenty seventeen that due to a clerical error, Victor's 559 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 2: sentence was reduced from thirty years to twenty four years. 560 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 2: Did you hear about that, and what was your reaction 561 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 2: to that. 562 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: I remember being shocked. I could not believe that he 563 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:46,360 Speaker 1: got a sentence reduced. And I think already thirty years 564 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 1: seemed not enough for what he had done to me 565 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 1: and Jess and then all the others. So then to 566 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: know that they went back and argued it down, I 567 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: just felt like a punch in the got. 568 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 2: So it went from thirty years to twenty four years. 569 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 2: Then one day recently, Lindsay opened a letter in the mail. 570 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:14,400 Speaker 2: It was an update on Victor's anticipated release date. Based 571 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 2: on that letter, Victor's prison time would actually end up 572 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:22,719 Speaker 2: being just sixteen years, basically half of what she'd agreed to. 573 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 1: His anticipated release date now is twenty thirty one, which 574 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,280 Speaker 1: is insane to me. It feels like that's right around 575 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:28,800 Speaker 1: the corner. 576 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 2: How old would he be if he survives until then. 577 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: Let's see, he was September fourteenth of nineteen sixty one 578 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 1: is his birthday. 579 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 2: So of course you know that off the top of 580 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,359 Speaker 2: your head. Of course, he'll be sixty nine years old 581 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:50,240 Speaker 2: the day he's scheduled to be released. Lindsay's not worried 582 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,359 Speaker 2: about Victor coming after her, but she hates the thought 583 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 2: of him getting out and reconnecting with some of his 584 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 2: former followers. 585 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: It's just hard because you know, this is stuff all 586 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 1: to live with for the rest of my life, and 587 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,760 Speaker 1: so I think for me, I was like, he should 588 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: then be locked away for the rest of his life. 589 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 2: I can't imagine how that must have felt. It's like, 590 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 2: if you don't hear about this story, you just assume, oh, 591 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 2: they put them away and you never have to think 592 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:26,360 Speaker 2: about them again. That's not the case. Yeah, Victor wasn't 593 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,799 Speaker 2: alone in creating that system that controlled Lindsay's life, though 594 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 2: so many other adults had to buy into his plan 595 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 2: and then enforce it. In the community. There were the 596 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,720 Speaker 2: elders who enforced the rules, elders sitting in on meetings 597 00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 2: with maiden's parents to make conversations more official, even more legitimized, 598 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 2: and hard to stand up to. Elders by the bonfire 599 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 2: the night, Victor asked every maiden to recommit, pressuring fifteen 600 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 2: year old Lindsay to return when she thought she'd finally 601 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,879 Speaker 2: left and was for And of course there was Jan 602 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 2: Victor's right hand, a woman who allegedly told a child 603 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 2: while they kneeled in a garden that at thirteen, and 604 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 2: without realizing it, she'd made a lifelong commitment that she 605 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 2: would never live with her family again. Jan who allegedly 606 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,760 Speaker 2: gave children books about sex because Victor wanted better lovers. 607 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,279 Speaker 2: Jan who convinced maidens who wanted to leave that they 608 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,359 Speaker 2: shouldn't because Victor was their true love. They needed to 609 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 2: be with him, they needed to stay in the sufferings. 610 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:43,600 Speaker 2: The blood of the Lamb covers all sins and the parents. 611 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 2: Parents who didn't take the time to look into red flegs, 612 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 2: who handed their kids over to live, often unsupervised, in 613 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 2: a house next to a predator. Parents who didn't ask 614 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,320 Speaker 2: and keep asking their daughters. 615 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:05,399 Speaker 4: Are you okay? Are you you safe? Are you happy? 616 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,040 Speaker 2: But other than Victor, none of them were charged with 617 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 2: a crime, not because they couldn't have been charged, but 618 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:17,760 Speaker 2: because Pine County didn't initially pursue it. Current County Attorney 619 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 2: Rees Frederickson told us that when he took office, the 620 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 2: statute of limitations had just expired. 621 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, it makes me angry. I think it's just 622 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:29,759 Speaker 1: a shame that they weren't held accountable. 623 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,720 Speaker 2: There were many different victims in this group, all feeling 624 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 2: Victor's wrath in different ways, but there's no question there 625 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,880 Speaker 2: were adults near the top who could have said something, 626 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,959 Speaker 2: who could have done something. I see that in each 627 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 2: community we investigate on this show, and it comes up 628 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,720 Speaker 2: in the real world in so many different ways. Tiny 629 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:57,560 Speaker 2: or big people don't fully see the disparities in the 630 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:03,760 Speaker 2: power they swim in. They we don't recognize our own power, 631 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 2: our own privilege, and when we don't recognize it, we 632 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 2: don't take action, We act powerless, We justify, leaving the 633 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 2: most vulnerable to get hurt. As a child, Lindsey did 634 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 2: start out powerless. She didn't have meaningful control over her life, 635 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 2: but she ultimately fought back and took hold of that power. 636 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:37,399 Speaker 2: She knows her power now. 637 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:43,720 Speaker 1: I think with sharing my story, I definitely wanted victims 638 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: to know that they're no matter what they go through, 639 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 1: big or small, that there is a life after all 640 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,480 Speaker 1: of that, that there is hope. I read something recently 641 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 1: where it said you don't even have to have a 642 00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,720 Speaker 1: hope for the future, you just have to be curious 643 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,760 Speaker 1: about out tomorrow, which I loved because there were moments 644 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 1: when I remember being in such a dark place, feeling 645 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:15,120 Speaker 1: so hopeless, and the curiosity of maybe the next day 646 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,440 Speaker 1: helped keep me going. It doesn't matter how dark the 647 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,640 Speaker 1: day is, just be curious about tomorrow. There is a 648 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,880 Speaker 1: life after all of these things that is just waiting 649 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 1: for you. 650 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,600 Speaker 2: For years, Lindsay's life was so controlled by Victor. He 651 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 2: could make her feel worthless in an instant. 652 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:41,239 Speaker 1: Hearing his voice or even discussing him, my heart would 653 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 1: start racing and my palms would start sweating. 654 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,719 Speaker 2: But recently we were talking to Lindsay listening to some 655 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,239 Speaker 2: old songs the Maidens had recorded. When we played one 656 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 2: of the CDs, this came on. 657 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,440 Speaker 7: He is still constantly abiding. 658 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:12,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was his voice. 659 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:18,760 Speaker 2: Oh so that was Victor's voice. How do you feel 660 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 2: hearing his voice? 661 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:29,239 Speaker 1: It's weird. There's no love or affection or anything when 662 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:34,160 Speaker 1: I hear his voice. It's almost just like no emotion. 663 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,839 Speaker 2: It's like the scales have fallen from Lindsay's eyes when 664 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:46,920 Speaker 2: it comes to Victor, not only intellectually, but emotionally even physically. 665 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,719 Speaker 2: She doesn't respond to the way she used to. She 666 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,959 Speaker 2: doesn't get angry, she doesn't get sad, she doesn't start 667 00:43:55,000 --> 00:44:01,200 Speaker 2: to question herself because after years of processing therapy, after 668 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,480 Speaker 2: going to the police, standing up what her own family 669 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,200 Speaker 2: told the world she was lying, facing Victor in court, 670 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:14,080 Speaker 2: after having Frankie, creating a family of her own, finding 671 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:19,600 Speaker 2: love that actually feels like love, not control. After all 672 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:25,399 Speaker 2: that Victor's voice feels like nothing to her, nothing at all. 673 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,200 Speaker 2: You've taken the power back in a way. 674 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:47,080 Speaker 1: It feels freeing. I remember Jess had this tattoo idea 675 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,120 Speaker 1: she wanted both of us to get, and it said 676 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,719 Speaker 1: beyond fear wise freedom. Even at that time, I didn't 677 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:57,880 Speaker 1: quite get the real meaning of it. But I feel 678 00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:02,160 Speaker 1: so free, like I've broken free from that cage that 679 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:06,120 Speaker 1: he created in my mind, the things I wouldn't remember 680 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,080 Speaker 1: him telling me, or the way he would make me feel. 681 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:13,600 Speaker 1: It's I've completely shattered those walls and broken out, and 682 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:18,840 Speaker 1: it's amazing. It's so amazing, you're beaming. 683 00:45:22,680 --> 00:46:09,319 Speaker 11: I feel so free. 684 00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:12,759 Speaker 4: The Turning is a production of Rococo Punch and iHeart Podcasts. 685 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,040 Speaker 4: It's written and produced by Alan Lance Lesser and Me. 686 00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,680 Speaker 4: Our story editor is Emily Foreman. Mixing and sound designed 687 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:24,839 Speaker 4: by James Trout. Grace Doe is our production assistant. Fact 688 00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:29,560 Speaker 4: checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado. So many thanks to all 689 00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:31,960 Speaker 4: of the people who helped and supported us with this project, 690 00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:37,120 Speaker 4: including Gretchen Gabtt, Jacob Nikola and Theo Silber, Kayla Reid, 691 00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:42,720 Speaker 4: Mary Lou McLachlan, Jerry and Christina Lance, Catherine Fanalosa, Andrea 692 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:48,399 Speaker 4: assoahe Mike Garth, Liz Mack, and Andrew Lesser. Special thanks 693 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,480 Speaker 4: to Bethan Macaluso, Travis Dunlap, Elizabeth Walktel, our marketing lead 694 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,719 Speaker 4: at iHeart Podcasts, Ali Canter, and the wonderful teams at 695 00:46:55,800 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 4: Rococo Punch and iHeart Podcasts for their support are Executs. 696 00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,360 Speaker 4: Producers are John Parratti and Jessica Alpert at Rococo Punch, 697 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:07,759 Speaker 4: and Katrina Norvell and Nikki Etour at iHeart Podcasts. You 698 00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,880 Speaker 4: can follow us on Instagram at Rococo Punch, and you 699 00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:14,040 Speaker 4: can reach out via email to the Turning at Rococo 700 00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:18,640 Speaker 4: punch dot com. I'merica Lance. Thanks for listening.