1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 2: This book is about grief, It's about loss, and it's 4 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 2: about what parents we consider good parents and which parents 5 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 2: we give chances to. 6 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 7 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 8 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked and the co host 9 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled 10 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they 11 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true 12 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those 13 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: stories with the details that have never been published. Tenfold More 14 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: Wicked presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, 15 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,559 Speaker 1: good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories 16 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: behind the stories. Most of you have probably heard the 17 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: story of the Heart Family, the couple that drove a 18 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: car off a cliff with all of their adopted children inside. 19 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: Our guest rock Sanna as Garian unfolds the story with 20 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: details that we've never heard before, including an investigation into 21 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: the child welfare system. I'll warn you that much of 22 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 1: this is difficult to hear. Well, why don't we start 23 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: with the story of the birth families. How these kids, 24 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,119 Speaker 1: these six kids, ended up with these two women, and 25 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: how potentially these two women ended up in the state 26 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: they were in when they made this terrible decision. So 27 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: let's start with the families. 28 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 3: So there's two birth families. 29 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 2: The first birth family that I encountered where the Davis is, 30 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 2: and that's a birth family of Divine Tay, Jeremiah, and Sierra. 31 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 2: And so they were actually the second group of kids 32 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 2: that were adopted, but I started with them because we 33 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 2: were all living in Houston. So the kids were removed 34 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 2: from their mom because she had a drug problem. She 35 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: used cocaine that came up when she gave birth to 36 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 2: Jeremiah at first, and then when Sierra was born and 37 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 2: Sherry tested positive for cocaine. The kids were ultimately removed 38 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 2: from her care and she was living with a man 39 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 2: named Nathaniel who was a much older guy who was 40 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 2: actually the primary caretaker. And Nathaniel was sober, he received 41 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 2: disability benefits, and he was, by all accounts, are really 42 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: loving father. He was the first person I actually ended 43 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 2: up talking to was Nathaniel. They were removed from him 44 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 2: when they were removed after Sierra's birth, so ultimately they 45 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 2: moved to their aunt's house. And their aunt's name was Priscilla, 46 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 2: and Priscilla as a church going woman who worked full 47 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 2: time at a hospital in Houston at the time. DeVante, Jeremiah, 48 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,839 Speaker 2: and Sierra had an older brother named Dante, and all 49 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 2: four of those kids were initially involved in this CPS case. 50 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 2: So all four of those kids lived with Priscilla up 51 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 2: until this fateful day when she was unable to find childcare. 52 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 2: She got called into work and her daughter, who was 53 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 2: a grown woman at that time, usually watched the kids, 54 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 2: but she was unable, so she asked Sherry, who's their 55 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 2: birth mother, to watch the kids. And while she was 56 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 2: out and Sharry was there with the kids, a caseworker 57 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 2: stop by unannounced, and because Sherrie's rights to her kids 58 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 2: were terminated, she wasn't allowed to be around them, and 59 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 2: so the kids were removed immediately when the caseworker showed up. 60 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: So this is four kids at this point who were removed. 61 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 2: Yes, and Dante was the oldest, so he was ten 62 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: at this time. He was acting out. He was the 63 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 2: oldest so he understood sort of what was going on 64 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 2: more than the other kids. He really didn't want to 65 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 2: be removed from his family. He was fighting and arguing, 66 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 2: and he ended up getting sent to a residential treatment center, 67 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 2: which is sort of like an institutional setting for mostly 68 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 2: foster youth. So he was split from his siblings at 69 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 2: that time. Kind of the frustrating thing about this story 70 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 2: is that Sherry terminated her rights voluntarily because she was 71 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 2: told that she needed to do that in order for 72 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 2: Priscilla to adopt the kids, because you can't adopt kids 73 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 2: when they have legal parents already. 74 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: So these four kids go into foster care, well one 75 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: of them goes into a residential facility, but the other 76 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: three kids go into foster care. What is their journey 77 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: to where they eventually land with the hearts? 78 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 2: So Texas has a website that you can look at. 79 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:57,239 Speaker 2: It's called the Texas Adoption Resource Exchange, and you can 80 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 2: essentially shop for kids that you would like to adopt 81 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 2: using that website. So Jennifer and Sarah Hart, who are 82 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 2: a white married couple who both were from South Dakota 83 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 2: but at this time we're living in Minnesota. They were 84 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 2: looking at the Texas Adoption Resource Exchange which they called 85 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 2: TAR and they stumbled on DeVante and Jeremiah and Sierra, 86 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 2: and they had used this website two years earlier when 87 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 2: they adopted their first set of three children, also from Texas, 88 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 2: so by that point they'd already been through the process 89 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 2: once it went really quickly. Kids have to live in 90 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 2: pre adoptive homes for at least six months before you 91 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 2: can initiate adoption, and they had lived with their aunt 92 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 2: Priscilla for five and a half months. She was attempting 93 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 2: to adopt them even though they got removed. She had 94 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 2: hired an attorney, she got denied, and then she appealed 95 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 2: that decision, but before that appeal went through in the courts, 96 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 2: the kids were already adopted by the Hearts. 97 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 1: I'm surprised that they did not give prential treatment to 98 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: a family member, but I guess she had a mark 99 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: against her for leaving the kids with their birth mother, 100 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: who had no rights and who obviously had some problems 101 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 1: to begin with. Is that the thinking? Why would they 102 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: not hold to see what Priscilla was going to do? 103 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I actually spoke to another judge who wasn't 104 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 2: involved in this case, but he was a judge for 105 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 2: these types of cases in Harris County, and he said 106 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 2: that was actually not the way that it should have gone. 107 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 2: If her appeal would have gone through, then the adoption 108 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 2: would have been void. 109 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 3: It felt pretty rush. 110 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 2: It was basically at the exact time when it could happen. 111 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 2: It happened despite the fact that there were family members, 112 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:42,720 Speaker 2: and despite that there is a federal mandate that family 113 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 2: members must be given preference for placement of kids who 114 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 2: are involved with CPS. That is there for a reason, 115 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 2: and that's because there's plenty of research that shows that 116 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 2: kids do best with their families, They do best with 117 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 2: their parents, and when they can't be with their parents, 118 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 2: they do best in family homes. And we understand this 119 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 2: across the child welfare system, but I think in the 120 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 2: case of the Davis family, it became clear that to 121 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 2: me that sometimes the preference is more theoretical than it 122 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 2: is actual. 123 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: So will you educate me a little bit on in 124 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: time where we are and what is the view of 125 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: a same sex couple adopting kids, because I just assumed 126 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: it was not going to be that easy, particularly in 127 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: a state like Texas. 128 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question, and it's an interesting wrinkle 129 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 2: in the case. I think I started looking into the judges, 130 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 2: you know, in Harris County, and there's a whole history 131 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 2: of corruption and racism, and there are actually instances of 132 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 2: not the judge in this case, but a judge next 133 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 2: door being very vocally anti LGBT for adoptive parents. So 134 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 2: I think that that is true that there. It kind 135 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 2: of depends on the judge. The judge in the Davis 136 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 2: family's case was really super interested in speed in clearing 137 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 2: out the docket, so to speak, you know, in his mind. 138 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 2: And I spoke to him actually about this case, and 139 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 2: he said, there are kids that languish in foster care, 140 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 2: which is true, especially sibling groups, because they're hard to 141 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,679 Speaker 2: place multiple kids. And he said Minnesota has been great 142 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 2: for like providing people who want to adopt essentially, and again, 143 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 2: because they had already adopted three kids from Texas, they 144 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 2: kind of knew the process. I will say that at 145 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 2: the time that the Davis kids were adopted, there had 146 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 2: already been an allegation of abuse against Jennifer and Sarah 147 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 2: Hart regarding the three children that were already adopted. 148 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: Were they in Minnesota during that accusation or were they 149 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 1: in Oregon at that point. 150 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 2: They were in Minnesota and that either got totally missed 151 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 2: by Texas, which it kind of looks like it did. 152 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 2: I have some records, so I have their actual adoption paperwork, 153 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 2: and I also have the foster care case file of Dante, 154 00:08:58,720 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 2: the oldest. 155 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 3: All of the movil stuff that was happening. 156 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 2: Is in that file as well, because they kind of 157 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 2: grouped the file by birth mom. 158 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: So this judge is moving through his docket quickly. Are 159 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: we also thinking that he's looking at these three black 160 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: children and thinking they are better off with a white family. 161 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 2: I think that the facts of this case make that 162 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 2: pretty clear. The officials that were involved assumed that the 163 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 2: white women were a better home for the kids. There's 164 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 2: a couple of ways that that becomes clear. Like in Priscilla, 165 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 2: the aunt's appeal that got denied, the court said why 166 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 2: should she have another bite at the proverbial apple, you know, 167 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 2: like they were saying, no, you can't adopt these kids, 168 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 2: and we're going to be a little. 169 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 3: Mean to you about it too. 170 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: Amazing. 171 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 2: But on the other side, the you know, the abuse 172 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 2: allegation sort of just went by. I mean, there was 173 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 2: no charge, you know, like criminal charge. Yet at that 174 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:56,959 Speaker 2: point a criminal charge did happen later, but it felt 175 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 2: very clear that Texas thought, Okay, this is the best 176 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 2: place that these kids can end up, and after that 177 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 2: just kind of wipe their hands and never really checked, 178 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 2: although they did continue to pay monthly payments per child 179 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 2: to the Heart Women until their murder. 180 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: Will you tell me about the first family and those 181 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 1: kids before we sort of get into Sarah and Jennifer 182 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: and what they were like. 183 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 2: Sure, So, as I was reporting this story, nobody knew 184 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 2: who the family of Marcus and Hannah and Abigail was, 185 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 2: and that was partly because Texas refused to disclose that information, 186 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 2: even to the police who were investigating the murders, which 187 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 2: is I would say an unusual level of confidentiality given 188 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 2: specifics of the case. So it was six months after 189 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 2: the crash when I noticed a family name for Marcus 190 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 2: in a big passle of records that the Sheriff's department 191 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 2: in Washington, which was the last place that the family lived, 192 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 2: released to the public. I guess it's important to note 193 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 2: that the police did have these files as well. I 194 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 2: just looked up the name on Facebook. I knew they 195 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 2: came from the Corpus Christi area, and I ended up 196 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 2: reaching out to their grandmother, and it became clear almost 197 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 2: immediately that she did not know what had happened to 198 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 2: the children. So I ended up telling her that, which 199 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 2: was really awful because it had been six months. It 200 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 2: was a huge national story, as you remember, so that means, 201 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 2: you know, millions of people heard this awful news before 202 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 2: the family was told. I got to know Tammy, who's 203 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 2: the birth mom of Marcus and Hannah and Abigail, and 204 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 2: her story which involves experiencing childhood sexual abuse at a 205 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 2: really young age and having resultant mental health struggles, so 206 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 2: she spent time in like a state mental hospital as 207 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 2: a child. She was experiencing homelessness and housing instability when 208 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 2: she had Marcus, who's the oldest. Marcus was being raised 209 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 2: mostly by Tammy's grandparents great grandparents, but ultimately the reason 210 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 2: they were removed from Tammy was Hannah got really sick 211 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 2: and needed to go to the hospital, and Tammy didn't 212 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 2: trust the hospital in Columbus, Texas, where they were living, 213 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 2: and she wanted to go to Houston, but she had 214 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,199 Speaker 2: two other kids and they couldn't fit in the ambulance 215 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 2: and she didn't have a ride there, and so there 216 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 2: was this period of time that she was trying to 217 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 2: figure out a way to get Hannah to the hospital, 218 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 2: and she ended up calling her caseworker, who picked her 219 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 2: up and took them to the hospital and immediately handed 220 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 2: her removal paperwork and the kids were removed at that point, 221 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 2: and Tammy was actually charged with medical neglect and she 222 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 2: ended up having to spend time in jail because she 223 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 2: couldn't afford to pay the fees that resulted from the case. 224 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 2: And she had the same situation as Sherry. When she 225 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 2: gave up her rights. She was under the impression that 226 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 2: they were going to a foster home. Like that foster 227 00:12:57,559 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 2: home was going to adopt them. It was a black 228 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:04,079 Speaker 2: couple who also had black children, and who told Tammy 229 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:05,959 Speaker 2: that she would be able to be in their lives. 230 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:08,079 Speaker 2: But again, you give up your rights, and you give 231 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 2: up your right to know anything and anything can happen 232 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 2: to the kids after that, and so she doesn't know 233 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 2: what happened with the prospective adoptive family. And there's actually 234 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 2: no records that I could ascertain because of how Texas 235 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 2: is very confidential with its records. In cases like this, 236 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 2: But they did end up in Minnesota with Jennifer and Sarah. 237 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: So at what point in what year do Jennifer and 238 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: Sarah have all six kids together? 239 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 2: In two thousand and eight, they were all adopted, But 240 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 2: there are some files that show that Jennifer and Sarah 241 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 2: did not necessarily think that their family was complete. They 242 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 2: had continued to look for kids on the Texas Adoption 243 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 2: Resource Exchange, and they had also tried IVF successfully. 244 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: Well, now I think we need to talk about them 245 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: because all of the lives and at this point, what 246 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: can you tell me about either woman? Whichever one you 247 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 1: want to go with first. 248 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 2: We'll start with Jennifer because Jennifer was the much more 249 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 2: vocal person in the couple. Jennifer grew up in here 250 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 2: on South Dakota. She was gay, but she never actually 251 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 2: came out to her dad, at least not explicitly. She 252 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 2: met Sarah in college, and Sarah was from an even 253 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 2: smaller town in South Dakota, right on the border of Minnesota. 254 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 2: They moved to Minnesota after college, and Sarah was working 255 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 2: for a department store and Jennifer she never got her degree, 256 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 2: And I think they started planning pretty quickly after that 257 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 2: for adopting through the foster care system. So they originally 258 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 2: got a foster youth named Brie, who was a teenager 259 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 2: who lived in Minnesota. I think Bree's experience actually shows 260 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 2: a lot because she was able to mean, she lived 261 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 2: there with a couple. Well, she actually saw them looking 262 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 2: through the website and talking about adopting kids, and she 263 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 2: was under the impression that she would be a part 264 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 2: of that family. 265 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 3: Shortly before they went to go pick up. 266 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 2: Marcus and Hannah and Abigail from Houston, they dropped Brie 267 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 2: off for her therapy appointment, and the therapist told Brie 268 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 2: that it wasn't going to work out and that they 269 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 2: had already had all of her stuff packed up, and 270 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 2: she had no idea and still basically to this day, 271 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 2: has no idea what caused their change in thinking. 272 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 3: I mean, she was really upset. 273 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 2: She said that she saw later saw them with their 274 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 2: kids and felt really awful, you know, because it was 275 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 2: this pretty small town in Minnesota where they all lived. 276 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 2: And she still to this day is like very confused 277 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 2: about what happened, especially in light of what came afterwards. 278 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: Did you say Brie was black? I can't remember if 279 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: you said. 280 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 2: That Bree was white, and also her rights to her 281 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 2: mother were not terminated, so she wasn't open to be 282 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 2: a permanently. That's part of an issue with the foster 283 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 2: to adopt is that there are some people who use 284 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 2: the foster system as it means, like directly to adopt, 285 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 2: But there are a lot of kids in the foster 286 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 2: system who need temporary safe places with loving parents and 287 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 2: don't need to have. 288 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 3: Their rights of their parents totally severed. 289 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: Are people in her life, their lives? Sarah and Jennifer 290 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: shocked based on what they know, not about the crash necessarily, 291 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: but the allegations that came before it. Does this just 292 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: seem completely out of character for either of these women. 293 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: But when they came together, something happened, something changed with 294 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: both of them. What is even the dynamic? 295 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really good question. 296 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 2: I think that first and foremost, Jennifer was very active 297 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 2: on social media, and she spun a story, a narrative 298 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 2: about her relationship, about her family, about the kids, and 299 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 2: that heavily influenced how people perceived her and the family. 300 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 2: There were a ton of friends that were completely shocked 301 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 2: by what happened. You know, one of her friends right 302 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 2: after the crash had said, Jennifer and Sarah are the 303 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 2: kinds of parents that this world needs. 304 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 3: So that was a fiction. 305 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 2: Really that was spun with really beautiful photography of the children, 306 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 2: like in their chicken coop and at the Grand Canyon 307 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 2: and all of this. 308 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 3: Kind of stuff. 309 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 2: That's partly I think why people were so drawn to 310 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 2: this case is because there was this whole record of 311 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 2: a life, the reality of the situation, and those things 312 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 2: were so hard to reconcile with each other. Before the 313 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:51,199 Speaker 2: inquest happened, there was a line of thinking from a 314 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,120 Speaker 2: lot of people who were following the case that Jennifer 315 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 2: was probably the abuser of the family. I think in 316 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 2: this case, though, it became pretty clear that the evidence 317 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 2: that was there actually pointed to both women being involved 318 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 2: in the abuse. The first thing is Sarah was charged 319 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 2: with domestic violence for putting bruises on one of her 320 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 2: children that was in Minnesota. She pled guilty and serve probation. 321 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 2: There was some confusion maybe that like jen had sort 322 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 2: of asked her to fess up to it or something, 323 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 2: but that's not what the evidence showed, and ultimately after 324 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 2: the crash, they looked through the women's cell phones and 325 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 2: they found a whole bunch of really incriminating Google searches 326 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 2: on Sarah's phone about how much benadryl would kill a 327 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 2: certain pound person. The kids were all found to have 328 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 2: ingested huge quantities of benadrul before they went off the cliff, 329 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 2: and you know, searches about like hypothermia, of drowning and 330 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 2: all kinds of really awful stuff. And it became clear, 331 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:03,880 Speaker 2: at least to me, that it was both Jennifer and 332 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 2: Sarah that were involved in the abuse of the kids. 333 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 1: Let's take these offenses and now let's pick up the 334 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: timeline sort of in real time. They're in Minnesota with 335 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: these kids, and there's this domestic abuse allegation against Sarah 336 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: and she pleads guilty, but they don't lose the kids, 337 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: right What happens step by step? Where did they go 338 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: and what do they do and what do people see 339 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 1: as this escalates? 340 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, prior to the criminal complaint, the teachers of 341 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 2: the kids in Minnesota were reporting alarming behavior. So they 342 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,239 Speaker 2: were reporting that the kids were really hungry and that 343 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:45,719 Speaker 2: they didn't seem to have enough food to eat, and 344 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 2: that they were asking other people for food and even 345 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 2: looking in trash cans, and to that, Jennifer and Sarah 346 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,880 Speaker 2: said that the kids had food issues because of foster care, 347 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 2: which is not rare actually, but it became clear to 348 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 2: the teachers that when they were calling home that the 349 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 2: kids were getting disciplined, and so they stopped basically reporting 350 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 2: this stuff. But when Sarah pled guilty, they pulled their 351 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 2: kids from public school, and that was the last time 352 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 2: the kids were in public school or any school, and 353 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 2: because of that, they lost contact with really any other 354 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 2: adults besides their parents. Sarah had to finish probation, but 355 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 2: once that probation ended, they immediately moved to Oregon. They 356 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,919 Speaker 2: lived in Oregon for a little while before a second 357 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 2: investigation started, and this one was reported by friends of 358 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 2: the family who witnessed some really alarming punishment of all 359 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 2: of the kids, but particularly of Marcus. They had gone 360 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 2: to visit this woman at her house and they were 361 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 2: only each allowed to have one small piece of pizza, 362 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 2: but they had ordered a lot of pizza, and so 363 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 2: they had a bunch in the fridge, and when they 364 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 2: woke up in the morning, the woman made a comment 365 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 2: to her husband, like did you eat all the pizza 366 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 2: in the fridge, and that set off Jennifer, who forced 367 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 2: all the kids to lay on their air mattress with 368 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 2: eyemasks on for like the whole day. And it was 369 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,640 Speaker 2: Marcus's birthday and she wouldn't let anyone say happy birthday 370 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 2: to Marcus. And the kids were very skinny at this point, 371 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 2: like alarmingly skinny, and Hannah was so small that people 372 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 2: regularly thought that she was like five years younger than 373 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 2: she actually was. That woman reported this, and there was 374 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 2: another investigation, and they actually reached out to the Minnesota 375 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 2: child welfare officials who said, you know, the problem is 376 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 2: these women, they look normal, and when they're confronted with 377 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 2: these alarming behaviors, they have a tendency to put them 378 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 2: back onto the kids and explain it by their trauma 379 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 2: histories and their experience in foster care. And that Oregon investigation, 380 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 2: a doctor found that five of the kids were so 381 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 2: small that they weren't even on the growth charts at 382 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 2: all for their ages, and still they were not removed. 383 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 2: Shortly after that, they moved to Washington, not too far away, 384 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 2: just sort of the other side of Portland basically, and 385 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 2: essentially DeVante started going to their neighbor's house and asking 386 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 2: for food, large amounts of food, and Hannah had one 387 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 2: time ran away in the middle of the night and 388 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 2: told the neighbors that she was being abused and her 389 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 2: parents were racist, and finally the neighbors called that in 390 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,400 Speaker 2: to CPS and that was sort of the inciting incident 391 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 2: that led to the family leaving and driving to California 392 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 2: in the first place. 393 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: Tell me about the racism allegations. What did Hannah say 394 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 1: was going on in this house? 395 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 2: Well, the thing with Hannah was that she basically jumped 396 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 2: out of the second story window ran over to the 397 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 2: neighbor's house in the middle of the night. The neighbors 398 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 2: were like sleeping and kind of confused and obviously really 399 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 2: like alarm. The other thing is that Hannah, again she 400 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 2: looked really young, so they're thinking like, maybe this is 401 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 2: like an eight year old. I think at that point 402 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 2: she was fifteen. She had no two front teeth because 403 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 2: they had got knocked out, which was another social media 404 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 2: post that was really alarming, where Jennifer's fingers were holding 405 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 2: like an entire tooth root to tip, saying like, oh. 406 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 3: Hannah's slipped in. 407 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 2: The rule is no running in the house or something 408 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 2: like that, but she never got replacement teeth, so it 409 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 2: ended up making her look a lot younger. And I 410 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 2: think they didn't get any specifics because shortly after she 411 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 2: came over the family had come to look for her. 412 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,880 Speaker 2: Jennifer would not allow the neighbors to talk to Hannah 413 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,640 Speaker 2: on her own after they arrived, and again, I think 414 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 2: partly because they thought she was so much younger. They 415 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 2: just thought and they said, oh again with the she 416 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,640 Speaker 2: has a lot of problems and you know, and then 417 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 2: she wrote a note where she said I'm sorry, I 418 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 2: shouldn't have come here and all of this, and so 419 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,919 Speaker 2: they didn't really get any clear sense of what was 420 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 2: going on. But when Davante started coming over repeatedly and 421 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 2: asking for food, and it wasn't just food for him, 422 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 2: it became clear that it was food for all of 423 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 2: his siblings. 424 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 3: He told them, though, please don't. 425 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:14,959 Speaker 2: Call CPS because we don't want to be split up 426 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 2: from each other, which is probably a pretty reasonable fear, 427 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 2: you know, because there's six of them. 428 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 3: And I think that might have contributed to why they. 429 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,880 Speaker 2: Were never removed in the first place, was like they 430 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 2: didn't know necessarily who was responsible for them and there's 431 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 2: no process for that. And that became clear because multiple, 432 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 2: multiple people were very alarmed by what they saw with 433 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 2: this family, and repeated attempts to protect the kids went unheeded. 434 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,400 Speaker 1: So do you think Jennifer and Sarah were feeling increasing pressure? 435 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: There's more and more incidents because the kids are older 436 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 1: now and they are making kind of bigger moves. They're 437 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: getting attention. We talk about the inciting incident. What was 438 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,719 Speaker 1: it that got them loaded up into that gold Yukon 439 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 1: and drove down into California to have what happened? What 440 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: leads up to that? 441 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 2: I think that's a good point, that the kids were 442 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 2: getting older. Marcus was nineteen at that time. I also 443 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 2: think that there might have been a sense that their 444 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 2: luck would run out at some point. With investigations, often 445 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 2: people say like, Okay, they must have been really overwhelmed. 446 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:44,719 Speaker 2: I will say that if there was already an abuse 447 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 2: allegation before they adopted the second set of three kids, 448 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 2: they doubled the number of kids. Six kids is a 449 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 2: huge number of kids, but also six kids from two families, 450 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 2: mixed ages, right, and trauma has extensive trauma histories. I 451 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 2: couldn't imagine that and that stands to reason that like 452 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 2: that might have been instead of fast tracking the second adoption, 453 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 2: that might have been like a pause, like, Okay, that's 454 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 2: a lot of kids for anyone. You know, that's a 455 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 2: lot of kids for like trained therapists. 456 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: And then you're thinking, if you're the judge, why are 457 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: you not thinking maybe these are parents who are doing 458 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: this for the paycheck and that's it. You know that 459 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: many kids. 460 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 3: That's a good point. And it's four hundred dollars per child. 461 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 2: Additionally, DeVante and Jeremiah got disability payments from Nathaniel Davis, 462 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 2: their father figure, that they also continued to receive until 463 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 2: their deaths. 464 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 3: So this was like twenty six hundred dollars a month. 465 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 1: And isn't it if the kids need therapy? I interviewed 466 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: a different author about a similar sort of situation. If 467 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,679 Speaker 1: the kids need therapy or they need anything that's special, 468 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: there's more money that the state provides, right with the 469 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: intention that you're going to use that money to help 470 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: them get the help they need. 471 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good point. And it's also true that 472 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 2: the family was really open about taking the kids off 473 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 2: of all of their psychiatric meds, and the foster care 474 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 2: system has a tendency to over medicate children, for sure, 475 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 2: that's documented, But they didn't go to therapy. The kids 476 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,479 Speaker 2: didn't continue going to therapy. The thing that happens when 477 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 2: kids get removed from home at a young age, especially 478 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 2: if they get moved around from place to place, is 479 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 2: that every single time they move, they internalize the idea 480 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 2: that they're never going to be safe or stable, that 481 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 2: even if it seems good, it might not last. It 482 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 2: probably won't last, and that's really harmful psychologically for kids. 483 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about that. We do have to talk 484 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 1: about the psychology or because we've been talking about the facts, 485 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: what is going on? What do you think they're doing. 486 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: You've got this sort of picture perfect family on the outside. 487 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,400 Speaker 1: They're over the top with their social media posts. They're 488 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: really trying to present themselves not just as a happy, healthy, 489 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 1: blended family, but like activists. They have them out there 490 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 1: in the Black Lives Matter protests. You know, there's all 491 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: this sort of facade going up, but so much bad 492 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 1: behind it. What are people saying about what they were doing, 493 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: what they were thinking? 494 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know, I'm not a psychologist, but 495 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,199 Speaker 2: to me, Jennifer seemed to have a really sort of 496 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 2: a mindset of like she herself being persecuted, persecuted for 497 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 2: her black children, and persecuted for her lesbian relationship. And 498 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 2: I think she sort of shows the signs of narcissism. 499 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 2: And again I'm not a psychologist, but the idea that 500 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 2: like everything is taken through the frame of herself primarily. 501 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 2: There were some things in the social media posts that 502 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 2: were really inappropriate. I felt, talking about private and kind 503 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 2: of embarrassing potentially situations with the kids, because the kids 504 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 2: were going through a lot of stuff, and you know, 505 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 2: she talked about the first night that Marcus and and 506 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 2: Abigail spent in their home and how Marcus was banging 507 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 2: his head against the wall and you know, bleeding and 508 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 2: screaming and. 509 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 3: You know, and all this stuff. 510 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 2: And it's like, if that's true, which we don't know, 511 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 2: and we don't have really any evidence for any of 512 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 2: the stuff that she was saying, but if that's true, 513 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 2: how embarrassing is that for him? You know? I mean 514 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 2: it's a really challenging move. There are thousands of miles 515 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 2: away and the totally different climate in like a basically 516 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 2: all white town. They're never going to see their mom again, 517 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 2: like these are reasons that kids do act out and 518 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 2: it's normal, and you can really understand that. 519 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: And it's framing her as this savior, literally a white savior, 520 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: savior coming in and saving him. Look what I have 521 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: to deal with. Look at what's happening, and look how 522 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: lucky this kid is to have Sarah and me. 523 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 2: As parents exactly, And even that exact same post where 524 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 2: she was talking about their first night there she said, 525 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 2: if not us who we have natural maternal instincts and 526 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 2: we have gits of love and all this kind of stuff. 527 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 2: And it's like, the central character in the story, especially 528 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 2: in the story of adoption and especially adoption from foster care, right, 529 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,719 Speaker 2: should not be the parent, because it's the kid's journey, 530 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 2: and the kid is experiencing it with a lot less 531 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 2: power and with a lot more internal instability, without really 532 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 2: understanding developmentally the sort of context for it, just having 533 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 2: really big feelings around it. 534 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: Are we seeing anything in their backgrounds that points to 535 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: these tendencies before they have any of these children, maybe 536 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: even before we met. I'm assuming people have been looking 537 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: and talking to family members or talking to friends from 538 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: high school. 539 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 2: So I did speak to some family members that ended 540 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 2: up not wanting to be on the record, and there 541 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 2: were a couple specific stories that were quite alarming, especially 542 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 2: regards to Jennifer. 543 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 3: There was one story about how. 544 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,479 Speaker 2: One of Jennifer's siblings was using a Q tip and 545 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 2: she walked by and banged her head against the Q tip. 546 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: Ooh, okay. So they get into the gold Yukon and 547 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: when are they thinking the timeline starts for obviously a 548 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: panic to set in. They think that CPS is going 549 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: to come knocking at their door and take away these kids, 550 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: is that right? 551 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 3: Right? 552 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 2: So they came home, actually I think they were home 553 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 2: because they didn't answer the door, so the caseworker put 554 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 2: her card in the door. When the caseworker returned, still 555 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 2: not unable to get a hold of the family, the 556 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 2: card was gone. But also the Yukon was gone. And 557 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 2: they had a little sort of a small wall along 558 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 2: their driveway and it was like they had backed into 559 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 2: the wall and like toppled over some of it. I 560 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,479 Speaker 2: think the panic set in before they ever left. I 561 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 2: think they probably realized or maybe thought that just because 562 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 2: they had recently been investigated in Oregon, you know, and 563 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 2: like you said, the kids were getting older, which means 564 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 2: they were able to leave. I think they had a 565 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 2: lot of that white savior idea that like the kids 566 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 2: couldn't function without them. I think they probably did also 567 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 2: believe that the kids are really messed up and kind 568 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 2: of assigned all those behaviors. 569 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 3: You know. 570 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 2: I think probably in their minds, they thought the things 571 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 2: that they were doing, like with the withholding food and 572 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 2: all that were like necessary. 573 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 3: In some way. 574 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 2: It did seem like they had like a complex right 575 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 2: of like being the victimized people. And so in that 576 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 2: frame of mind, they probably thought that if they couldn't 577 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 2: have the kids, then you know, I mean, that's really 578 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 2: awful to think, right, that you would think of killing 579 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 2: your family before you would think of just letting them 580 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 2: exist without you. 581 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, they think they're doing them a favor. I mean, 582 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: any of the research I've done on family annihilators, some 583 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: of them say in their heads, they don't want to 584 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 1: live with a shame, They don't want them to go 585 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: on without them. They wouldn't be able to function. It's 586 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 1: so narcissistic, and it makes me wonder what that day 587 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: was like. Do you think that they left Washington knowing 588 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: that this was going to be a plan that this 589 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: is what they should do, or do we get the 590 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 1: impression from any of the evidence that this was spur 591 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: of the moment, even if that means they decided that 592 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: morning to do this. 593 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the evidence shows that they were kind 594 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,479 Speaker 2: of figuring it out as they were driving because of 595 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 2: Sarah's Google searches, so she searched for no kill shelters 596 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 2: for dogs, they had animals. I think it started forming, 597 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,719 Speaker 2: like how to do it. I think they did realize 598 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 2: that they were trapped before they left, but I don't 599 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 2: know that they came up with the plan. It's really 600 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 2: hard to say because there's the evidence on their phones. 601 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 2: There's the evidence on the car itself, right that shows 602 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 2: that they didn't break But I don't know what was 603 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 2: like in that car and how they were able to 604 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:42,959 Speaker 2: drug the children or anything like that. 605 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 1: Are either women talking to friends texting in the days 606 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: leading up to this at all. I had read somewhere 607 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: that maybe Sarah regretted something beforehand. This just seems like 608 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: everybody's on edge. 609 00:33:58,680 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, Sarah. 610 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 2: This was a while back that Sarah had told one 611 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 2: of her coworkers that she wished that she knew that 612 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 2: you don't have to have a big family. 613 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: Okay, tell me about that day. So the crash happens 614 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: on March twenty sixth of twenty eighteen. What do we 615 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,399 Speaker 1: know from I know their CCTV, there's receipts, there's cell 616 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: phone records. Piece together what happens leading up to what 617 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: happens on March twenty sixth. 618 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 2: So they left the house and they started driving. I 619 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 2: don't think they stayed at any hotel or anything. They 620 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 2: stopped at a grocery store and bought some bananas and 621 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 2: snack foods. They parked their car at this turnoff off 622 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 2: the Pacific Coast Highway, and there was another couple, like 623 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,240 Speaker 2: an older couple who had an RV and was driving 624 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 2: down the coast from Alaska. They heard the car, and 625 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 2: they poked out and saw the car. And then he said, 626 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 2: in the middle of the night, this was like three 627 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,280 Speaker 2: in the morning, he heard what sounded like bottoming out. 628 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 1: Wait, what is bottoming out mean? Exactly? 629 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 2: You ever hit like a speed bump too fast, you know, 630 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 2: like it makes a loud sound where the bottom of 631 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 2: the car hits the ground. Okay, what he thought happened 632 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 2: was that they had like peeled out to go down 633 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 2: to the town which was nearby, so he thought maybe 634 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 2: they just left fast. He said he thought he heard 635 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,879 Speaker 2: something like off the cliff, and that he thought maybe 636 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 2: it was a seal, and then he went back to bed. 637 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 2: He left with his wife the next day. And then 638 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 2: there was a German tourist who spotted like it was 639 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 2: a lookout point, right, so people would come there and 640 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 2: park their car and look at this beautiful view. And 641 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 2: that's what this German tourist was doing when they noticed 642 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 2: the car flipped on its hood at the bottom of 643 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 2: the cliff. 644 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,479 Speaker 1: And we know that. We have rescuers going down there 645 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,279 Speaker 1: and they're looking and tell me what the scene is 646 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 1: because it's a total disarray. 647 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a really difficult scene, actually a crime scene, 648 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 2: because the car was actually on the shore but partly 649 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 2: in the water, and because of that, the tide had 650 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 2: been coming in and out right. So in addition to 651 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 2: the impact, which was a huge impact because it was 652 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 2: one hundred foot cliff that the car went off and 653 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 2: it was on its hood, there was also this tide 654 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 2: which was coming in and going out. There had been 655 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 2: a storm recently, so it made it really challenging for 656 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 2: investigators to find the rest of the bodies, because three 657 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 2: of the kids were found, two of the kids were 658 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,880 Speaker 2: found much later, one was found weeks later, and one kid, Davante, 659 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 2: was never found. And that's partly because the conditions were 660 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,359 Speaker 2: so changeable. So, like one of the searchers said, you'd 661 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 2: go down to the beach at two pm, and you'd 662 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 2: go down at the beach at eight pm, and it 663 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,479 Speaker 2: was like a totally different beach. You were seeing all 664 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,400 Speaker 2: different things, which made it really challenging for people to 665 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 2: do the search. 666 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: What does the car say actually happened? Because a car 667 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: I can tell you right the black box inside the 668 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 1: car can tell you whether or not the car was 669 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,839 Speaker 1: breaking at the time of a crash or accelerating. 670 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,800 Speaker 2: Yes, it accelerated off the cliff. That became clear pretty 671 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 2: early on when there were no skid marks. You often 672 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 2: see some evidence at the street level that there's breaking, 673 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 2: that there's attempts to, you know, turn really fast or 674 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:20,839 Speaker 2: something like that. 675 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 3: So there was nothing like that at. 676 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,840 Speaker 2: The actual and there's a berm, like an eighteen inch berm, 677 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 2: which is just like a raised amount of earth around 678 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 2: the whole lookout just for safety, and so you would 679 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 2: have to accelerate to get over that. 680 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 1: What is the toxicology saying about the two women and 681 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 1: the kids that they were able to recover? I know 682 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 1: we talked about benadryl. Did both women take benadryl or 683 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: was there alcohol? 684 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 3: Sarah took benadryl. 685 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,879 Speaker 2: Sarah wasn't driving shoes in the passenger seat, so all 686 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 2: of the kids and Sarah were found with like massive 687 00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 2: amounts of benadryl, like overnoses of benadryl, and Jennifer was drunk. 688 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 1: Has there been any kind of reckoning with the foster 689 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 1: care system in Texas once this story came out and 690 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 1: these families, I mean the Davis family in particular, I 691 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: know that they had been interviewed. Was there any kind 692 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 1: of a reckoning? Were there apologies? Was there acknowledgment that 693 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: this was a mistake. 694 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 2: No, there was no acknowledgment at all on the part 695 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 2: of Texas. The caseworker that was Tammy's caseworker, so she 696 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,520 Speaker 2: had a big hand in placing Marcus in Hannah and Abigail, 697 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 2: and after that adoption went through, she actually wrote this 698 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 2: glowing letter of recommendation that this family should get any 699 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 2: kids that they want right they're just the wonderful parents. 700 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:43,239 Speaker 2: I followed up with her and asked her sort of 701 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 2: how she felt about it, and she said, I don't know. 702 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 2: Something must have happened, but I still don't really believe 703 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 2: it that they did this. And I said, have you 704 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 2: read the news stories? And she said no, Will you 705 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 2: tell me? 706 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 1: Do you know what happened to Bree who was a 707 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: teenager who too lived with the hearts, and to Dante, 708 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,360 Speaker 1: who was the ten year old who did not go 709 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 1: with them, who would have presumably ended up dead but 710 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 1: instead went to like a mental health facility. 711 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 3: So Brie I reach out to her. 712 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,759 Speaker 2: She still lives in Minnesota, in the same town she 713 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 2: actually works for like a behavioral health program. She seems fine, 714 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 2: and she's in contact with her mom and they get 715 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:25,680 Speaker 2: along well and they've sort of worked through some of 716 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,279 Speaker 2: their issues that they'd had that had resulted in her 717 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 2: being in care. With Dante, his story is a big 718 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 2: part of the book, and he spent years in that institution, 719 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 2: which it's called a mental health facility, but they don't 720 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:42,160 Speaker 2: provide very much mental health care and the place is 721 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 2: rife with abuse. He did experience abuse there at least 722 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 2: one documented incidence where his shoulder was dislocated by a 723 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 2: staff member. He actually was able to reunite with Nathaniel 724 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 2: at age sixteen. He walked across town, he recognized the neighborhood. 725 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 2: He went and found Nathaniel, and Nathaniel was able to 726 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 2: gain custody of him before he aged out. 727 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: This was Sherry's boyfriend and not his biological son. 728 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 2: No, but he never gave up hope, and he never 729 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,840 Speaker 2: gave up hope on the other kids too until he 730 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 2: found out that they were killed, and it was really tragic. 731 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 3: It was really tragic. 732 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,879 Speaker 2: For Dante too, because Dante has years and years of 733 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 2: case reports where he was begging his caseworker to contact 734 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:31,359 Speaker 2: his siblings. He felt responsible for them being taken from 735 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:33,880 Speaker 2: him because he was the oldest and he thought that 736 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 2: his bad behavior led to their removal. He felt responsible 737 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 2: for that also. He begged to the point where they 738 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,000 Speaker 2: did ask Jennifer and Sarah if he could have a 739 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:46,840 Speaker 2: phone call with them, and they said no. 740 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 1: What has been the lesson? Do you think just in 741 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,919 Speaker 1: the national news, what do people take away when they 742 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,560 Speaker 1: read your book or any narrative on this story. 743 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 2: My hope is that my book adds to what's out 744 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 2: there already about this case that helps people understand that 745 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,720 Speaker 2: the way that the child welfare system works or doesn't 746 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 2: work greatly contributes to traumatizing kids, because I think we 747 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,720 Speaker 2: have this tendency to think of parents who are involved 748 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:21,440 Speaker 2: with CPS as bad parents, bad people, and that you know, 749 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:23,919 Speaker 2: removing kids from that situation is helping them. 750 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 3: But I think that's often not true. 751 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,400 Speaker 2: I think there are so many kids that are stuck 752 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 2: in foster care dealing with just really horrific abuse in care, 753 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:39,080 Speaker 2: and that we provide no support to them, real emotional support, 754 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,319 Speaker 2: like a kid needs someone who loves them, and we 755 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,400 Speaker 2: take all the people, all of their family away. Even 756 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 2: this case, like the Heart Family case, is a story 757 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 2: that Texa is considered a win, and it's not a win. 758 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 2: So I want to sort of draw attention to the 759 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 2: idea that the system is not set up to really 760 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 2: help children. 761 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,840 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 762 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,960 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 763 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly 764 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 1: right production. Our senior producer is Alexis Amrosi. Our associate 765 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 1: producer is Alex Chi. This episode was mixed by John Bradley. 766 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,880 Speaker 1: Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga Executive 767 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:37,320 Speaker 1: produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgariff and Danielle Kramer. Follow 768 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:41,240 Speaker 1: Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked 769 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,040 Speaker 1: and on Twitter at tenfold more and if you know 770 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 1: of a historical crime that could use some attention from 771 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 1: the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at info 772 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:54,160 Speaker 1: at tenfoldmorewicked dot com. We'll also take your suggestions for 773 00:42:54,239 --> 00:43:04,279 Speaker 1: true crime authors for Wicked Words