1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Welcome 4 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: back to the show. My name is Matt, my name 5 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: is Nolan. They call me Ben. We are joined with 6 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: our long suffering, super tolerant super producer Paul Decant. Most importantly, 7 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: you are here. You are you that makes this stuff 8 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. Part three in a 9 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: continuing series, the Tranfinity and unfortunately continuing series we should 10 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 1: add as well. Uh you see, folks, this is part 11 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: three in our series on unapprehended serial killers. And in 12 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: the past and previous episodes we covered the new Bedford 13 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: Highway killer remains unapprehended, the Lisbon Ripper, also unapprehended, Pedro Lopez, 14 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 1: famously known as the Monster of the andes apprehended then 15 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: not anymore. Yes, once apprehended then escaped. Uh. In a 16 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: few years ago, Interpol released a warrant or a call 17 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: to find this guy. And then we also covered the 18 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: Connecticut River Valley killer and the possibilities of that killer's 19 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: true identity. We also covered the Long Island serial killer, 20 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: a k a. The Craigslist Ripper. Yeah, and then we 21 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 1: had Bible John thrown in there from the last one, 22 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: the Babysitter, which was an odd name I remember, uh 23 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: for for a killer. The Freeway Phantom was one, and 24 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: the Maniac of Nova s Birsk. Yeah, I believe that's 25 00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: how you say it. That sounds right to me. Okay, cool, 26 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: And you can you can check out our previous episodes, 27 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 1: one of which has a guest on the show who 28 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: has not themselves a serial killer so far as we know, 29 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: and there you can find some deep dives into both 30 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: the methods of murder, the times these killers were known 31 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: to be active, and the latest research at the time 32 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: of the recording regarding whether or not they will be apprehended. 33 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,399 Speaker 1: And we did this along with serial killers who almost 34 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: got away who very well would have gotten away had 35 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: they not returned to an active state, and those would 36 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: be people like the Grim Sleeper or Dennis Radar also 37 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,799 Speaker 1: known as b t K or the Mind Torture Kill. 38 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 1: And we've also explored the stories of the original night Stalker, 39 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: which was that was a tough one and in the 40 00:02:55,840 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: Highway of Tears, especially which continues man in Canada. Uh, 41 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: there's a lot to go back and listen to, So 42 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: I would recommend just getting those archives, go way back 43 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: and um explore it. But it's a grizzly ride, and 44 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: don't do it while you're eating, please, And as we 45 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: said at the top, more serial killers remain on the 46 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: loose today. We're spoiler alert not going to have any 47 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: chance of covering them all in this episode. So as 48 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: you are listening, if there is one that you think 49 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: your fellow listeners would find particularly fascinating, or most importantly, 50 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: if you think there might be some sort of lead 51 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: that could ultimately result in the apprehension, conviction, or arrest 52 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: of one of these unidentified killers, whether or not they're 53 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: on this show. Let us know several of the killers 54 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: we're exploring today have little or no chance of facing 55 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: up to the consequences of their crimes, those crimes being 56 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: serial murder, right, So this is different from garden variety homicide, 57 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: not to diminish the tragedies inherent in that. And first 58 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: let's let's have a quick recap of what exactly defines 59 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: a serial killer. So the base level criteria for a 60 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: serial killer are that this individual commits at least three 61 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: murders um and at least three separate locations, and that 62 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: there is something of a cooling off period in between. 63 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 1: It's almost like a kind of hibernation, almost, yeah. And 64 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: that that comes from crime classification manual and m that's 65 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: where it outlines all that stuff. But that's not where 66 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: the term serial killer originates, right. The term serial killers 67 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: we understand it today was coined in the mid nineteen 68 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 1: seventies by former director of the FBI's Violent Criminal Apprehension Program, 69 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 1: a man named Robert Wrestler. He chose Cereal for peak 70 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 1: behind the Curtain. He because the police in England called 71 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: these types of murders crimes in a series quote unquote, 72 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 1: and because of the serial films that he grew up watching. 73 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: In Part two of the series, in the previous episode 74 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 1: on Uncaught serial Killers, we examine some of the methods 75 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: that have been used to classify this type of murderer 76 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: based on their motivations. Their processes are the very rough 77 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:29,039 Speaker 1: demographics from killers who were caught or were observed in 78 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: enough detail by witnesses or survivors to create a reasonable 79 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: uh a reasonable shot at a physical description. And what 80 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: we've learned from these various investigations, is that real life 81 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: serial killers, as exceedingly rare as they are, don't often 82 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: match the image of a killer of this type that 83 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: you would see in so many works of fiction. Yeah, 84 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 1: and you know, this is the first uncut Serial Killers 85 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: episode we've done since mind Hunter has been out on Netflix, 86 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: which and then that's just one of those shows that 87 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: really gets you into the behavioral science department of the 88 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 1: FBI and how they're thinking about crimes in a series 89 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: really has evolved over time, and how the psychology of 90 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: some of these people, how it functions. I think it's 91 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: interesting how little action that show has, but how it 92 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: still keeps you on the edge of your seat, and 93 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: it really reveals so much about the inner workings, and 94 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 1: like a lot of the tension comes from conversation rather 95 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 1: than confrontation kind of. And I think it's really really 96 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 1: great show. But unlike some of the highlights from a show, 97 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 1: a fictionalized show like that, these murderers are not brilliant masterminds. 98 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: Many times, a lot of times they're just like you 99 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,799 Speaker 1: and I. They have families, they have networks of friends, 100 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: they drive cars, they have a car note that they pay, 101 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: They've got a mortgage perhaps or something to that effect, 102 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: and they might even be on social media, and these 103 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: impulses that we're talking about, like this urge to kill 104 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: in this way is less some sort of calculated mastermind 105 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: kind of thing, and as it is like an addiction 106 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: that you're constantly struggling with and fighting every day and 107 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: having to kind of figure out how to incorporate it 108 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: into that family life and not be discovered, you know. 109 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's a really fascinating psychological landscape for 110 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: these crimes and serial killers like many other people, because ultimately, 111 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: these are not some sort of superpowered subspecies of humanity. 112 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: These are people at base right, and ultimately they are 113 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: as varied in terms of their demographic description or their 114 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: motivations as another person would be about their own, you know, 115 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: socioeconomic status thrown genetic makeup their aims and desires. Just 116 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: as there are are uh, serial killers who feel they 117 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: have voices commanding them to do something, there are also 118 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: serial killers who have belief that, you know, as Noll said, 119 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: there's a there's maybe a compulsion, and then there may 120 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: also be a belief that a certain amount of people 121 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: must be killed in a certain way for some sort 122 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: of design. Uh, these are not uh, cookie cutter profiles. 123 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: And we want to emphasize again the damning thing about 124 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: the information we do have, we being human civilization law 125 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: enforcement at large, is that we are basing these classifications 126 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: almost entirely on incomplete evidence, because we're only talking usually 127 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: about the ones who get caught, because how do you 128 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: talk about the ones who are still out there? I mean, 129 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: if you if you can't interview someone and they can't 130 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 1: tell you something, you're just inferring from what you find 131 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 1: at a crime scene. So we've mentioned in previous episodes 132 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: that again pre mind Hunters, a lot of people would 133 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,719 Speaker 1: be most familiar with certain fictional characters when they think 134 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: of serial killers, like a Hannibal Lecter, sure or Dexter 135 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: for instance. Right. And in both of those cases, the 136 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: killers are they ultimately transform into anti heroes, right. And 137 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 1: they are also meticulous and brilliant and very rarely driven 138 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: by passion rather than premeditation, which in real life is 139 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: not always the case. Have you guys seen Man Hunter, 140 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: the the original appearance of Hannibal Lecter the original Michael 141 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: Man movie. It's weird, it's very eighties, but it's it's 142 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: very beautifully shot. And Brian Cox plays Hannibal Lecter, which 143 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 1: is interesting because we know, you know the Anthony Hopkins 144 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: portrayal of that role so well, because it's so over 145 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: the top, kind of like you see him in that 146 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 1: role and you're almost like, how would anyone not peg 147 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: that dude for a psycho a mile away? Brian Cox 148 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: plays it much more understated and much more like, you know, 149 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 1: he could pass for a regular dude, whereas Anthony Hawkins, Well, 150 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: that performance is captivating. I kind of feel like, how 151 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: would you not know that that guy's got bodies in 152 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: his basement? I have to say really fast, when when 153 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: I hear Brian Cox, I think of the physicist that 154 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: that I remember from our days with Discovery, the younger Serant. 155 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: I believe he's a certain physicist, and I don't think 156 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:40,559 Speaker 1: I know what Brian Cox, the actor looks like. Well 157 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: you are in luck. Oh yes, okay, very familiar. Okay, 158 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 1: So for everyone who can't see, because this is of 159 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: course coming to you as an audio podcast, Noel pulled 160 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: up a photograph of Brian Cox for Matt's illumination and meanwhile, 161 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: I'm looking at the English they're in physicist. He does 162 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: come up first, though I know why. I think I 163 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 1: spelled Brian's name wrong. He has an English spelling maybe 164 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,719 Speaker 1: b R I A N versus. No. No other names 165 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: are spell identically, but Brian Cox, the physicist definitely comes 166 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: up before the actor. Good on you, Google. You know what. 167 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: I will take that a step further and say, good 168 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: on you humanity. Maybe it's because Stephen Hawking died today 169 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: and so physics are a top of mind. Yeah, I 170 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: guess it worked. That was a top thing. That's true. Yes, 171 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: as we're recording this, it is both the anniversary of 172 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: Albert Einstein's birth, it is Pie Day, and it is 173 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:42,199 Speaker 1: the day that Stephen Hawkings, legendary astrophysicist, expired. This may 174 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: well be old news by the time this hits the airwaves, 175 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: but hopefully it's still relevant and what a fascinating would 176 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: have would have fascinating person. But wait, you may be seeing, 177 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:58,599 Speaker 1: isn't this an episode about uncaught serial killers? It is, indeed, 178 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: and we'll dive into that after a word from our sponsor. 179 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. There are so many serial 180 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 1: killers that have been active over the years that are 181 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: still uncaught that may be active right now, maybe we're 182 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: just unaware of it. Um or that have been caught 183 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 1: and released or caught and then you know, evidence, very 184 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: compelling evidence exists, but some technicality has allowed them to 185 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: walk free. Possibility, or as also happens, they may have 186 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: been apprehended for another crime and not tied to the 187 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: murders right as the case might be, but instead be 188 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: languishing in prison for some time. And then maybe police 189 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 1: are out, authorities are looking for someone and they're right 190 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: under their noses. We just don't know. So let's travel 191 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: to India, to Mumbai, and let's look at some specific 192 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: examples of serial killers on the loose or at least unapprehended. Today, 193 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: we're looking at a killer known as beer Man. That's 194 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: our first example. And yes, that is beer b e R. 195 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: Like something you would you know, cold when you would 196 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: crack open with the boys, to paraphrase Reddit. So between 197 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:25,319 Speaker 1: October two thousand and six and January two thousand seven 198 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: and by India, uh, the press and law enforcement were 199 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: on the track of a killer they called beer Man 200 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: because according to them, them being the press and law enforcement, 201 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: one of the primary linkages between these deaths was the 202 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: presence of beer bottles near the bodies. But you'll find 203 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: conflicting info about this case. Yeah. One source said there 204 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:54,439 Speaker 1: were only two beer cans found throughout the entirety of 205 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: the serial killers run um and it was only two 206 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: victims and they were in fact beer cans. But again, 207 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: this is reporting from India and the sources we're using 208 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 1: or everything from the Times of India, UH to dy 209 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 1: t V too. There's a blog called open Something that 210 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: I can't recall any of it right now, but they're 211 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: they're varying sources and we're definitely getting conflicting information. You 212 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: ever notice how in most movies about serial killers, the 213 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: cops always are super piste. When the press gives a 214 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: snappy nickname to a killer like that is not serving 215 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: their goals, Usually they're usually very annoyed, or if someone 216 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: refers to them like that as an internal memo, they're like, 217 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: you know, you better not let this get out. Yeah, 218 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: And that happens in real life too, because one of 219 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: the one of the things that puts the press and 220 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: law enforcement and loggerheads in the investigations of these crimes 221 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 1: is going to be uh. The idea of the good scoop, 222 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: the exclusive scoop versus uh, the need to hold information 223 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: back so they can real identify the killer. Because another 224 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: trope in fiction that does turn out to be true, unfortunately, 225 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: is that when the specific details of a murder or 226 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: a murderer's rituals are released, copycat people or or people 227 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: who want the attention will just call into the police 228 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: department and say, you know, you got me. I am 229 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: the bag of Badger's butcher or whatever. I knew it 230 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: was you all along. Ben, Oh, this is my Paul impression. 231 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: I like it now, but it's true. And you can 232 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: you imagine being a compresponsible for solving one of these crimes, 233 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: and how annoying and like muddling it must be when 234 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: this information starts flooding the press and you're constantly having 235 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: to differentiate between real information and these jerks that are 236 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: just trying to like waste your time and get a 237 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: little you know, get a little rise. You know, I can't. 238 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, but then from a journalist perspective, 239 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: it's almost your duty to inform the people around you 240 00:15:55,640 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: the public dangers that exist. So know, you have those 241 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: two competing things, and you know, we can't assign motives 242 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: to journalism entire because it's also true that journalist will 243 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: seek to gain the most credibility in the media marketplace. 244 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: And it's also true they want to uh sell the 245 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: most uh maybe sell the most papers back in the day, 246 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: get the most clicks online nowadays. And yes, by the way, 247 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: side note, it's entirely possible that an active serial killer 248 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 1: today is on social media just because of the numbers. However, 249 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: uh One one thing that we have noticed in the 250 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: past is that there have been times where journalists have 251 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: assigned a killer or a perceived killer a nickname that 252 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: the killer themselves objected to, you know, like don't call 253 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: me the baby rubber I am, you know, the King 254 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: of Darkness, and then it become it introduces this whole 255 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 1: new layer of complication with investigating the case. And you know, 256 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,159 Speaker 1: one of the things that law enforcement doesn't want a 257 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 1: killer to do. One of the reasons they disclike nicknames 258 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,360 Speaker 1: in general is because some of these murders have latched 259 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: onto this in the past. Right Jack the Ripper, right, 260 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: uh the axe man in New Orleans or h let's see, 261 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: did the Zodiac killer self assigned? That's a weird one. Though, right, 262 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: because I feel like he set the terms for his 263 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: role and then the press kind of fed back into 264 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 1: it and became this like weird feedback loop. Um, but 265 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: I kind of want to say he at least had 266 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: a symbol of some kind or did he sign his 267 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: letters Zodiac. We're going to have to dive in. We 268 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,479 Speaker 1: could do an entire episode on the Zodiac killer. For now, 269 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 1: let's look at the beer Man. Let's go back to India. 270 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: Current speculation as we record this puts the number of 271 00:17:54,880 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 1: victims at between six to eight individuals. Their methods of 272 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 1: murder differ. They were killed by being hit on the 273 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,239 Speaker 1: head with a stone, in some cases bludgeoned or in 274 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: other cases, according to in d t V, they were 275 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 1: stabbed in the chest. Yeah, several different types of bludgeonings 276 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 1: occurred and stabbings from the reports we had read, um 277 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 1: though all the men there were there were several men. 278 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,479 Speaker 1: The first victim was a taxi driver that was found. 279 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: All the men were poor or not at least not wealthy. Um. 280 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 1: Some of them were homeless. It was surmised that the 281 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:37,239 Speaker 1: killer himself was probably not poor. And this is for 282 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:41,360 Speaker 1: several several reasons. Because first of all, he drinks beer 283 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: out of cans, which I guess is a a factor. Um. 284 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 1: And then also because he must have been or was 285 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: probably operating a vehicle of some sort, and you have 286 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: to have a certain amount of money in India in 287 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: that area to own or at least operate a vehicle 288 00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 1: in any part of the world. Wouldn't ad a glass 289 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: be fancy? Possibly, I don't. I don't know the customs 290 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: in that area, but yeah, it was. It was given 291 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 1: as drinking beer from a can was one of the reasons. Well, 292 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,360 Speaker 1: I know that in cases with glass bottled beverages like 293 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: Thumbs Up, which is popular soda, that the glasses are 294 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: typically purchased and returned and then refilled, so that that 295 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: might play a role in there. They also attempted to 296 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:31,959 Speaker 1: build a profile, and they said that the killer was 297 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: likely young, early thirties, thirty five and uh in pretty 298 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: good physical shape because he was able to overpower his 299 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: victims easily. The killers uh. The sites of the murders 300 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: were secluded spots, which to them indicated that this murderer 301 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: knew South Mumbai well, or here's the terrifying thing, knows 302 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: South Mumbai well. And the perpetrator of these crimes was 303 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: believed to have had sex with five of his victims 304 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 1: before killing them. Um. At the fourth scene, the killer 305 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: allegedly left a note which was written in very polished English. Uh. 306 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 1: And while he may have had good English, he did 307 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: not have good handwritting, apparently because most of the text 308 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: of the letter was undecipherable. Or it's possible that the 309 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: cops chose not to release the contents and full and 310 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: just exerted instead. Um. But one of the things that 311 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 1: was contained in the note was the quite chilling welcome 312 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 1: to the clan. Yeah yeah, what does that mean? Like 313 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: an initiation of some sort? Right c l A and 314 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: not kale right? Uh So Again, there are differences in 315 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 1: the m O the mode of operation here, specifically stabbing 316 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: versus bludgeoning or also strangulation. Uh. Police believe that these 317 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: murders have been committed by the same man and then 318 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: things took a turn. On January twenty in two thousand 319 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: and seven, Mumbai law enforcement arrested someone for the murders, 320 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: a man named Revendra um control and it's also written 321 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: Contralo in a couple of places. Um So, Revendra cantroll, 322 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: I think that's what we'll probably call him for this. 323 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 1: They rested him for the murders, and according to the 324 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: Times of India, once he was in custody, he was 325 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 1: subjected to several tests, some of which I at least 326 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: personally was not familiar with. They called it one narco analysis, 327 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 1: which we think is probably just a drug test of 328 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: some sort, brain mapping which I have not seen used 329 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 1: in law enforcement. UH, and polygraph So let's go through 330 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 1: these really fast. The narco analysis tests that Mr Revendra 331 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: went through, they seem to clear up the beer mystery. 332 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 1: According to the Times of India, UM saying okay, so 333 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: he allegedly said, as he's going through this test that 334 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: he would make him his victims drink beer before killing them, 335 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: but he did deny. According to the Times of India, UH, 336 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: any sexual conduct with his victims and a lot of 337 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: homophobia draws into this part of the investigation, which has happened, 338 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: happened before. For instance, uh. One of John Wayne gay 339 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: Sy's primary things that he stuck to for his entire 340 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: time in prison was that he was not a homosexual, 341 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: and he was very irritated and frustrated that he felt 342 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: the press was unfairly calling him that. And there's there's 343 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: an echo of this here with the suspect revengea controller 344 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: saying that he was being falsely accused of being attracted 345 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: to the same sex, and that trope actually going to 346 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: come into play later on in today's episode in a 347 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,959 Speaker 1: in a very big way. Now, the other tests, when 348 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: the other ones, was called brain mapping, and with this 349 00:22:55,359 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 1: one controller was attached to a device that looked at 350 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: I guess brain signals, brain waves, if you will, um, 351 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: while he's looking at pictures of victims from these the 352 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: beer Man killings, like some black mirrors stuff. It does, right, 353 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 1: And allegedly, according to these sources, he showed signs of 354 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: recognizing several of the photographs. So maybe the activity in 355 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: a certain region of his brain spiked when he saw 356 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: certain photographs. And then we're assuming if it were to 357 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: be a valid test, they would also present him with 358 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: pictures of strangers, yes, and contrast those, uh, those findings. 359 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 1: So yeah, but we don't have the specifics of these 360 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: tests that were performed over vendra Um. The last one 361 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: is polygraph which is inadmissible in US courts because it's 362 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: a load of hooey. Yes, and those are the tests. 363 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: You know this already, but those are the tests that 364 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: look at how your body is responding to stress while 365 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 1: you're under questioning. Oh, do we tell everybody the way 366 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 1: to be a polygraph on this show or the way 367 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 1: to render it method? That's one yeah, yeah, what what 368 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: is the thumb tap? I think if you just have 369 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,679 Speaker 1: like a a baseline of pain that you have, it 370 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: can skew the entire results. So if you like sneak 371 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: in a thumb tack and just like stab yourself in 372 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: the lag with a thumb tack the entire time, it's 373 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: going to exkew the results. Where the baseline of like 374 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,919 Speaker 1: calmness I guess that it's looking for is going to 375 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 1: be much more difficult to ascertain. And it may look 376 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,439 Speaker 1: like a faked test, it's like you know, or it 377 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 1: may look like a botch test or something was wrong, 378 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,439 Speaker 1: but they certainly can't actually get anything useful out of it. 379 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 1: This yeah, yeah, yeah, And that's it's similar to the 380 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: other approach, which is to just uh, for the entire 381 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: length of the interview, really flex your butt and and 382 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: like really put some put some effort into it. Uh. 383 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: So that again there's this strain that alters the bay 384 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: s line. You know, for Atlanta Monster, we had we 385 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 1: interviewed a gentleman who performed a polygraph on Wayne Williams. 386 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: And one of the things he said is there are 387 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: sensors now in the chairs to prevent that that very thing, 388 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,120 Speaker 1: so you clenching anything like that. They do like a 389 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 1: full search now if they ever do these not the 390 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: polygraphs are just you know, being used all over the 391 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: place in law enforcement. But they, yeah, they that method 392 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: was real, So let's all get some thumb tax or 393 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: maybe not kill people. That's also the way it's laughable 394 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,959 Speaker 1: when someone accused of sexual misconduct will come up, come 395 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 1: out and say, but look, I I took a polygraph 396 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: by my own, you know, I I volunteered to do it. 397 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 1: Here the results check it out. It's like, dude, you 398 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 1: just yeah. And just the one last thing with those 399 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: polygraphs Wayne Williams, they they performed three tests, so they 400 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: run the same questions three times and they don't look 401 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 1: at one individual test. They come like, look at how 402 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 1: each question changes each time you answer it? Right, to 403 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: build a more robust data set. Well, what did what 404 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: did this alleged beer man say? During his polygraph. Well, 405 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: the authorities said that during these tests, Ravendra had confessed 406 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: to both being involved in twenty one criminal cases and 407 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: to committing fifteen murders. Yeah so, so involved in twenty 408 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: one crimes. But uh, you know, committed fifteen murders. According 409 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 1: to the authorities, that's a weird thing to admit. It's 410 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: a weird distinction to It makes you wonder if it 411 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: was torture involved. Well now, well here's the thing now, 412 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 1: I remember this is you know, a report that came 413 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 1: out right from sources. Then of course he went to 414 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: trial and he only stood trial for three murders, so 415 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,400 Speaker 1: there was only enough evidence to connect him with three 416 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 1: of them, and he was found guilty on one count 417 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 1: of murder. This led to him being sent in to 418 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: life imprisonment. However, things changed in September of two thousand 419 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,719 Speaker 1: and nine when the Bombay High Court made a ruling. 420 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: And what a ruling it was. Um. The Bombay High 421 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 1: Court overruled in fact Revenger's conviction and declared Cantroll not 422 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,919 Speaker 1: guilty of the murders. Um. And so he went on 423 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: to open himself a little food truck fast food stall, uh, 424 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 1: and he sold the rights to have his story he 425 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: adapted into a film, and as of now he is 426 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: a freeman and and the beer Man murders remain unsolved. Yeah, 427 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: that was when I was doing the research. That was 428 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 1: my favorite part was the fast food stall and the 429 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 1: rights to the film adaptation. You can find an interview 430 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 1: where he talks about it. But he also says that 431 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: his reputation by and large is ruined because you know, 432 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: he was sentenced. He was convicted and sentenced, and after 433 00:27:55,520 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: a sentence like that is overturned, it doesn't mean that 434 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 1: the community forgets. Yeah, and it's not like your picture 435 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: wasn't all over the media so people can recognize you. 436 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,479 Speaker 1: And the other thing apparently he is now a usual 437 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: suspect in Mumbai, so anytime anyone dies, they'll go and 438 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: find him and bring him in for questioning. Well again 439 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 1: to that point, he did confess to committing murders. That's right, 440 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:27,439 Speaker 1: and like according to according to somebody, so right, And 441 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: you know, and like we said, we don't know if 442 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 1: if these things were said under duress. But you gotta 443 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: wonder too, if you get a nickname like that and 444 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,880 Speaker 1: that's your claim to fame, whether in good taste or not. 445 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 1: If you've gone free, do you get to keep the nickname? 446 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: Like can you can you call your food truck the 447 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: beer Man. I'm sorry, that's making a face. It's just 448 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: I don't I don't like the idea of a potential 449 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: serial killer opening a food truck based on the name 450 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: that was given to the serial killer by the media. Well, 451 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: you will be happy to learn that most of the 452 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: serial killers who were committing acts accountabalism and a feeding 453 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: unsuspecting people human flesh. Uh, A lot of them have 454 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: been caught. Again, I can't make you feel a hundred 455 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: percent better because we only know the ones that got caught. 456 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: But the hey, you know, I'm here for you, man. 457 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: But the interesting thing, the darkly fascinating thing about the 458 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: power of nicknames here is that there was a case 459 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: in Egypt with a serial killer who was known for 460 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: heading a gang on the train where they would, uh, 461 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: they would abduct people children, other gang members sexually assault 462 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: them and kill them. Uh. He got caught, he was executed, 463 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: but afterwards people began naming things after him. Uh, and 464 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: his name caught on posthumously, which is a troubling statement. 465 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: But he's not in this episode. Because he was definitely caught. Well, 466 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: but I mean, you had a conversation off Mike about 467 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: that Museum of Death that I went to in l A. 468 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: And the the whole like the ethics of making money 469 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: off of your crimes if you are actually incarcerated, whether 470 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 1: you can sell let's say, like a work of art 471 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: like John Wayne Gaycy. In this museum there were a 472 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: ton of John Wayne Gaycy paintings that he had done 473 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: of him as a clown or you know, various things 474 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: like that. And there was even I can't remember the 475 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: guy's name now, but he was an absolute monster. But 476 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: he had this series of like these collages and these 477 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: like almost pop up books, and there was a notebook 478 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: of letters, and one of them was a dispute that 479 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: he had with an art dealer about how they like 480 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: owed him money, and it was literally a correspondence between 481 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: him and this art dealer, and you can see the 482 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 1: back and forth. And I mentioned this to you Ben, 483 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: and and the theory was, it's it's technically not legal, 484 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: I guess to um represent a known criminal like that 485 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: for works that glory. I don't know exactly what the 486 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: laws are, but our theory was that maybe they did 487 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: it to get him in the door, and then they 488 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: were not they were they weren't going to pay him 489 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: because he doesn't really have a leg to stand. Maybe 490 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: that's what it was. They didn't didn't really have a 491 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: right to see them. Yeah, due to the Son of 492 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: Sam Law, which is a kind of an umbrella term 493 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: for laws designed to keep not just serial killers, but 494 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: any criminals from profiting off off the result of their crimes. 495 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: So not just you know, not not just art for instance, 496 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: but you can't sell the rights to your life story 497 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: or film. Like if Matt and I apologize in advance 498 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: for using you as an example here, we've just got 499 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: a system and your name came up. So if if 500 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick the gave like the worst example, what's so 501 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: let's say let's say Matt Frederick is in I don't know, 502 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:53,239 Speaker 1: constant talks with a convicted serial killer, um, and there 503 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: are talks of selling rights to a story, and then 504 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: the Georgia Department of Actions finds out and then you 505 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: have to go through the motions. Right, let's just say 506 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: hypathetically that happens. Well, the first the first law that 507 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: qualify his son and Sam Law was creating new York 508 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: after David Berkowitz, because there were all these rumors that 509 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: publishers and movie studios were offering a lot of money 510 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: to him directly, which is paying. If you think about it, 511 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: it's it's not that far away from paying someone to 512 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: kill people. That's essentially what it is. So yes, Noel 513 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: is absolutely right. That is a debate that continues today 514 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: because then the other question would be, well, is it 515 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: is it as bad if we buy the rights to 516 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: this but the money legally is required to go to 517 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 1: a fund for the surviving family members or something that's 518 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: exactly That's exactly how it's handled nowadays for the victims families. 519 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 1: But it doesn't bring anyone back and earlier. Let's so 520 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: now we have no we as in the human species, 521 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: don't have any public clues for the beer Man murders. Uh. 522 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: We do have other cases, and they're not just in India, 523 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: They're not just in the United States. We will travel 524 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: to a very different part of the world for our 525 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: next example, after a word from our sponsors, Johannesburg, South Africa. 526 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 1: Beginning so far as we officially know, in two thousand 527 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: and ten, uh, an unknown individual or group of killers 528 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: was meeting gay men online and forums, gaining their trust, 529 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: traveling to their homes and brutally murdering them. At this point, 530 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 1: you know, earlier in our beer Man example, we were 531 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,719 Speaker 1: able to say for a certain span of years, but 532 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: at this point the years just ending question marks. We 533 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 1: don't know when or if this stopped, because for years 534 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,879 Speaker 1: law enforcement would not identify the murders as linked, nor 535 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: did they publicly describe this as the action of a 536 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: serial killer. And this led community activists in in the 537 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: area in Johannesburg to say that the police were slow 538 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 1: to investigate due to rampant homophobia in South Africa, so 539 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 1: slow in fact, that they were actively just not caring 540 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 1: or prioritizing these violent crimes. Yeah, and that sentiment is 541 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,839 Speaker 1: echoed by Dowie Nell, the director of Out, who says 542 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: that police were sluggish the same thing. Police were sluggish 543 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: in their investigation because of the sexuality of the victims, 544 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 1: and as each murder becomes um or became known to 545 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 1: the media, Nell would call police to step up their investigation, 546 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 1: say come on, you guys, get on this, this is happening, 547 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: this is very real. But apparently it just didn't do 548 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: any good and we have a quote from Dowie. Up 549 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 1: to this point there have only been three arrest in 550 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 1: one of the cases. We call on the police to 551 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 1: please take this seriously and increase the urgency of their 552 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: investigation to ensure justice for the victims and their families. 553 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: And the police went on to state that they believe 554 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 1: that there may be a gang of homophobic murderers targeting 555 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: men um with the last reports as recently as alleging 556 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: that the killer or killers may have actually relocated to 557 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 1: Cape Town, South Africa, which is strange. Isn't it that 558 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: they moved from Johannesburg to Cape Town? If they are 559 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:49,800 Speaker 1: indeed related and in this instance, questions remain, we would 560 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 1: be would be very interested in hearing your take on 561 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 1: this if you lived in Cape Town or in Johannesburg 562 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: during this time especially, we'd like to know if the 563 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: local community believes these are ongoing or if this was 564 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,879 Speaker 1: a spate of things that were considered to have some 565 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: definitive span of time and just remain unsolved. Again, the critics, 566 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:24,320 Speaker 1: lgbt Q activists and more uh say that the South 567 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 1: African police forces are simply not prioritizing these murders due 568 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: to the fact that it afflicts a stigmatized section of 569 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: the population. And when we go when we talk about 570 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 1: this kind of cultural prejudice, it's deceptively easy to say, Oh, 571 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:48,320 Speaker 1: that happens in another culture. Right, Homophobia is so rampant 572 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: in insert city or insert country here that it is 573 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 1: an unfortunate fact of the matter. And it surely wouldn't 574 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 1: be the case in I don't know, country like Canada 575 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 1: or Western Europe or the United States. Wait. Example number three, 576 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,239 Speaker 1: The Doodler. Yeah, this one's tough. Um. From four to 577 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five, a man known only as the Doodler 578 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,240 Speaker 1: killed up to fourteen gay men in San Francisco. Um. 579 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: He got this name because he would meet his victims 580 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:26,840 Speaker 1: at gay bars and sketch their portraits before um taking 581 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,399 Speaker 1: them to a location, having sex with them, and then 582 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: stabbing them to death. Yeah. And the will mention that 583 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: you would draw portraits, paintings, just drawings of his victims. 584 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 1: And none of these were ever released to the press. 585 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 1: And although it's believed he killed fourteen people, it's much 586 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 1: more likely that he took around five victims. Yeah, and 587 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 1: that that can sound confusing. What what that means? Is 588 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 1: that up to fourteen people in similar circumstances disappeared or 589 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 1: met a violent end around that time, But the investigation 590 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 1: as it stands, traces the traces only five specifically to him. 591 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 1: Uh usually the eyewitness accounts right and months after his 592 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:22,360 Speaker 1: last killing in seventy five, the San Francisco Police Department 593 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 1: did release one sketch related to the Doodler. It was 594 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,360 Speaker 1: not a sketch he made of his victims. It was 595 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 1: a sketch law enforcement and made based on descriptions of 596 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,800 Speaker 1: the suspects. Uh. He was a black man his early twenties, 597 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,840 Speaker 1: around six ft tall, with a slim build, and according 598 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: to one witness, he described himself as someone studying commercial art. 599 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 1: And one of the big questions that pops up in 600 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 1: our minds when we look at this is why why 601 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 1: haven't we heard of this? You know, why is this 602 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: um murder, this series of murders in a very well 603 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 1: known part of the United States? Why is it so 604 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 1: unknown today and in the great span of history. Nine 605 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 1: seventy five was not that long ago. Many people listening 606 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: to the show now we're alive. Then here's part of 607 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:18,279 Speaker 1: why this may have been brushed aside. The murders took 608 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,320 Speaker 1: place around the same time of the notorious and likewise 609 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: unsolved Zodiac murders, and and as in the case with 610 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,719 Speaker 1: the Johannesburg murders, it seems that part of the official 611 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:34,760 Speaker 1: disregard and part of the legal obstacle course facing any 612 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:39,880 Speaker 1: uh any pursuit of this criminal can be traced directly 613 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 1: back to homophobia. In fact, the killer could have been caught, yes, 614 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 1: because he left. There were some surviving victims of the 615 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,319 Speaker 1: doodler who were actually prominent people that could have gone 616 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,879 Speaker 1: to the police and said who they were. But there's 617 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 1: a problem in doing that. You're gonna out yourself to 618 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:01,799 Speaker 1: everyone if if you admit to being a part of this. Right. 619 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,840 Speaker 1: Harvey Milk, who was a well known politician and activist 620 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 1: in San Francisco, also a game man himself. Um. He 621 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 1: said this to the Associated Press regarding his understanding of 622 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,320 Speaker 1: people's position in this case, said, I respect the pressure 623 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,480 Speaker 1: society has put on them. Um. He estimated homosexuals lived 624 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 1: in San Francisco, uh and he said that of that number, 625 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:26,880 Speaker 1: a good are in the closet. And Milk's estimation proved 626 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 1: to have some sand because the police questions survivors, including 627 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: a quote well known entertainer, a diplomat from Europe, as 628 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 1: as Matt had said, prominent people. And for a year. 629 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:47,279 Speaker 1: For a year, the police were questioning a suspect that 630 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: they believed was the doodler. Right, but he did not 631 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,959 Speaker 1: admit guilt, and none of the survivors, to the earlier point, 632 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 1: we're willing to testify. And this meant that there was 633 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,759 Speaker 1: no way to charge him. There isn't any smoking gun evidence. 634 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,280 Speaker 1: He was not uh, you know, he was not physically 635 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 1: linked to this stuff. And the most important piece of 636 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 1: the evidence. The survivors who could point at the guy 637 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 1: in court and say, yes, that's the man who tried 638 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 1: to kill me, we're not willing to, you know, having 639 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:22,480 Speaker 1: already risked their lives by surviving this ordeal, they were 640 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 1: not willing to risk their lives again given the social 641 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 1: stigmas of the time. And you can ask the San 642 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:39,799 Speaker 1: Francisco Police Department about these cases, uh, they will give 643 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:43,920 Speaker 1: you the same response they gave journalists, which is, we 644 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 1: don't discuss open investigations. See it's fascinating that it's it's 645 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:54,320 Speaker 1: still an open investigation somehow, And I wonder what methods 646 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,319 Speaker 1: there could be to attain some of some of those 647 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:04,000 Speaker 1: records because it's been it's I don't know, I'm gonna 648 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:05,920 Speaker 1: look I'm really I'm seriously I'm gonna look into that. 649 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like it's one of those things 650 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,080 Speaker 1: where when the case is that old and that cold, 651 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,239 Speaker 1: the only break you're gonna get is someone running their mouth, 652 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:14,840 Speaker 1: you know, talking out of school in a bar that 653 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 1: someone happens to over here and they make a complaint 654 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 1: and the next thing you know, you're in Buffalo Bills Dungeon, 655 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Like that that that that 656 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:23,759 Speaker 1: really does feel like like a short of you know, 657 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,719 Speaker 1: they call them cold cases, but they definitely get trundled 658 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:29,719 Speaker 1: off to the back to to relegate it to the 659 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 1: filing cabinets, you know. I mean, people are not actively 660 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,719 Speaker 1: working these cases. They just don't have the resources to 661 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,160 Speaker 1: do it right. And especially in a time where news 662 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:42,200 Speaker 1: cycles move so quickly and news become so ephemeral, Uh, 663 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:47,120 Speaker 1: it's easy for these things to be forgotten. I like 664 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,480 Speaker 1: your point about somebody having to speak out of turn 665 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,640 Speaker 1: to release this kind of information that would be held 666 00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 1: up because you know the reality is that murder cases 667 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:02,919 Speaker 1: the national average is around a sixty something percent clearance rate, 668 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,759 Speaker 1: which means that UH, clearing a case means that has 669 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,120 Speaker 1: been explained. It was a spected murder. They either explained 670 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,799 Speaker 1: what happened or they found the person responsible, the people responsible. 671 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,760 Speaker 1: So with that uh, with that little less than forty 672 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:24,920 Speaker 1: unclosed uncleared case ratio, we know this kind of stuff happens. 673 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:29,240 Speaker 1: And in the course of our exploration today of uncaught 674 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:33,880 Speaker 1: serial killers, we found what we'd like to call a 675 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:39,960 Speaker 1: dishonorable mention, and it involves a case that may well 676 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:44,840 Speaker 1: encompass multiple assailants. It is the case that may be 677 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,640 Speaker 1: familiar to some true detective fans, known as the jeff 678 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 1: Davis Eight. Yes, between two thousand five and two thousand nine, 679 00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 1: there were eight women from the town of Jennings, Louisiana 680 00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:59,719 Speaker 1: in this in the Jefferson Davis Parish. UH. They were 681 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,799 Speaker 1: murder her and their bodies were dumped in ponds and 682 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:06,880 Speaker 1: canals in the area. And of these these victims died 683 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,200 Speaker 1: of various causes. Some had appeared to have been asphyxiated. 684 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,600 Speaker 1: Two of the women had their throats slashed, one in 685 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:17,480 Speaker 1: a one in a truck that was available to law enforcement. 686 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:22,400 Speaker 1: Covered in her blood, but the means of death aside. 687 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 1: The women of the jeff Davis eight had plenty in common. 688 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,120 Speaker 1: All of them were from South Jennings, the poor side 689 00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:32,239 Speaker 1: of town, and they knew each other. And they were 690 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:36,560 Speaker 1: all living in poverty and had criminal records um full 691 00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:40,600 Speaker 1: of drug abuse and petty crimes. Uh. And they often 692 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:45,160 Speaker 1: supported their drug habits with with sex work. Yeah, this 693 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:49,799 Speaker 1: sounds very familiar and author named Ethan Brown investigated this 694 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 1: for a number of years. He wrote a book about 695 00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:57,080 Speaker 1: it called Murder in the Bayou, and he also noted 696 00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,960 Speaker 1: that all eight of the victims there in Jefferson dave 697 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:04,360 Speaker 1: Is Parish where informants for local law enforcement about the 698 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,399 Speaker 1: drug sales in the drug trade there in Jennings, which 699 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:12,680 Speaker 1: is a very small town. Originally, investigators believed this was 700 00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:17,480 Speaker 1: a single deranged serial killer. However, Brown, who was a 701 00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 1: New Orleans based p I, when he first heard of 702 00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:24,120 Speaker 1: the murders in two thousand ten, uh, he thought there 703 00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:26,680 Speaker 1: was something else to the story and he was astonished 704 00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,800 Speaker 1: that the police claimed they had no leads. To Brown, 705 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,000 Speaker 1: this sounded strange in the town that had around ten 706 00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:36,319 Speaker 1: thousand people, and he visited the side himself over the 707 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,680 Speaker 1: next few years, connecting one dot after another. Here's some 708 00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:42,000 Speaker 1: of the things he found. He found that all the 709 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,840 Speaker 1: victims had at some point stayed in the Bordeaux in 710 00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,160 Speaker 1: and this was a motel which is closed now, where 711 00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,200 Speaker 1: the town's drug dealers and sex workers would get together 712 00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,799 Speaker 1: to get high and to have their clients over. He 713 00:45:54,880 --> 00:46:00,239 Speaker 1: also found that officers of the parish slept with some 714 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:04,520 Speaker 1: of the women who later became victims. Is some kind 715 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:10,200 Speaker 1: of like kinky police murder ring. Well, Brown, to his credit, 716 00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:13,279 Speaker 1: just connects dots and doesn't draw He's trying to be 717 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,880 Speaker 1: very journalistic about it, so he's not drawing hard conclusions. 718 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,960 Speaker 1: But I agree with you, it does seem to be 719 00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:26,480 Speaker 1: the case. He also found pretty compelling proof that evidence 720 00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,880 Speaker 1: in these eight murder cases had been tampered with or 721 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,359 Speaker 1: was removed from the parish entirely. And one of the 722 00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,040 Speaker 1: big things that went missing was that truck where the 723 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 1: one victim etter of throat slashed. You would think that 724 00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:44,200 Speaker 1: a truck that was a essentially rolling crime scene wouldn't 725 00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:50,200 Speaker 1: disappear in that way. So additionally, prison nurse and a 726 00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:53,319 Speaker 1: sergeant voice concerns about this. They said they thought there 727 00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,840 Speaker 1: was something rotten in the parish, and they were fired. 728 00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:01,239 Speaker 1: Several women who provided information about the initial murders later 729 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:07,160 Speaker 1: became victims themselves, leading Ethan Brown, like like Noel, to 730 00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,600 Speaker 1: believe that there wasn't so much a serial killer active 731 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:12,920 Speaker 1: here as there was a cover up that was in 732 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:17,120 Speaker 1: some way directly connected to the sheriff's office. And here's 733 00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:22,240 Speaker 1: where it gets even crazier. Brown discovered that the Boudreau 734 00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:26,399 Speaker 1: in was owned by Louisiana congressman named Charles boost Any, 735 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,520 Speaker 1: and this gentleman had himself slept with at least three 736 00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:34,440 Speaker 1: of the murder victims. So here's my question. Are they 737 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:38,160 Speaker 1: murdering them to keep them quiet? Or is the murder 738 00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:42,200 Speaker 1: like the kink that's being exploited here. It's like sex 739 00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:47,160 Speaker 1: isn't enough. These powerful men like want to take lives, 740 00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,640 Speaker 1: you know, for sport. Well that's if he was actually involved. 741 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:54,480 Speaker 1: I'm just I'm just throwing it out there. It's a 742 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:59,440 Speaker 1: good question because we see so we can sketch this 743 00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,000 Speaker 1: out in a little bit more detail here, which you 744 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:07,839 Speaker 1: can find in Ethan Brown's book. He connected the ownership 745 00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:11,200 Speaker 1: of the inn in the following manner. A guy who 746 00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:15,880 Speaker 1: was a fixer and a representative for the congressman had 747 00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:20,919 Speaker 1: the hotel purchased under an entity that he controlled. This 748 00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:25,239 Speaker 1: enabled the congressman's office to say, oh, we had no 749 00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,600 Speaker 1: knowledge that you owned, that we had no stake in this. 750 00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:33,319 Speaker 1: Any allegations regarding me are completely unfounded, completely untrue. What 751 00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:35,719 Speaker 1: happened to these women that I, again have never met, 752 00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:40,440 Speaker 1: is a tragedy, and any uh, anyone living in town 753 00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:42,279 Speaker 1: that you want to ask, will tell you that I 754 00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:46,080 Speaker 1: have not been with these people. Again. To rewind that 755 00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:50,239 Speaker 1: a bit, anyone living in town, I can tell you 756 00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,560 Speaker 1: I was not involved. Uh. Brown also found that law 757 00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:56,640 Speaker 1: enforcement's own witnesses to the murders, the ones who weren't 758 00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:00,640 Speaker 1: later killed, believe that members of the police force themselves 759 00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:04,560 Speaker 1: or either directly responsible or know who is and aren't 760 00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:09,960 Speaker 1: saying anything. As of today's episode, the murders remain, like 761 00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:14,080 Speaker 1: the murders in our earlier cases, officially unsolved. You mentioned 762 00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:17,440 Speaker 1: True Detective before this one. Is this this story is 763 00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:19,920 Speaker 1: was the basis for some of the writing of that season, 764 00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,600 Speaker 1: like the Good Seasontive. Well, you know, it's It's interesting 765 00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:27,360 Speaker 1: because a lot of people, both fans of True Detective 766 00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:32,480 Speaker 1: and people who would uh witness this dark story unfolding 767 00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:37,760 Speaker 1: felt that what's his name, Nick Pizzolatto, Uh, they believe 768 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:41,680 Speaker 1: that he had taken inspiration from this. For his part, 769 00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:45,880 Speaker 1: he says that he was not aware of uh these murders, 770 00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,279 Speaker 1: even though he was located in the rough area. He 771 00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,440 Speaker 1: got danged for for ripping off some other source material 772 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,440 Speaker 1: to The Yellow King, right, well, not the Yellow The 773 00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,239 Speaker 1: Yellow King was definitely referenced like as a work of 774 00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:00,759 Speaker 1: fiction in the in the plotline, but I think there 775 00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,040 Speaker 1: was another like a philosopher or something who he kind 776 00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:06,520 Speaker 1: of stole from verbatim and some of the things that 777 00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,839 Speaker 1: Cole the Matthew McConaughey character said. It was a thing 778 00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:12,600 Speaker 1: that came out in an article right when that was 779 00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:17,080 Speaker 1: really hot, and I remember it was not particularly flattering, right, Yes, 780 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:22,560 Speaker 1: I remember that Thomas, Yes, Thomas Ligotti a very dark 781 00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:26,839 Speaker 1: philosophical horror writer as well. Yeah, I remember when we 782 00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:31,040 Speaker 1: were talking about the article off air because we all 783 00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:34,120 Speaker 1: we all stopped work because there was such true detective 784 00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:36,200 Speaker 1: nuts that we had to we had to convene an 785 00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:43,000 Speaker 1: emergency summit. But yeah, for for that part, and I 786 00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,480 Speaker 1: think it is important to mention that there this was 787 00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:52,040 Speaker 1: not the only accusation of this author taking ideas from 788 00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:56,040 Speaker 1: other people. Uh. But for this part, the author says 789 00:50:56,120 --> 00:51:00,879 Speaker 1: that he was unaware of this uh, and the connections 790 00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:07,640 Speaker 1: to um Ethan Brown's articles were somewhat coincidental or entirely 791 00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:15,120 Speaker 1: coincidental would be Pisolado's argument. But regardless of what inspirational 792 00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:19,080 Speaker 1: fount he drank from, it remains the case that these 793 00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:23,360 Speaker 1: these murders are unsolved. The beer Man murders are. I 794 00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:27,759 Speaker 1: guess now they're officially unsolved since the one case got 795 00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:30,040 Speaker 1: turned over. Yeah, I got they let that guy sell 796 00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,000 Speaker 1: the rights to his story and open a food truck, 797 00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,520 Speaker 1: so they must be onto the next thing. But I 798 00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:38,240 Speaker 1: couldn't find anything uh more recent than just that guy walking, 799 00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,000 Speaker 1: So I guess they're back to the grindstone. And in 800 00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:46,120 Speaker 1: several of the cases outlined above, it is almost entirely 801 00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:49,160 Speaker 1: certain that the killer will either never be caught or 802 00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:53,360 Speaker 1: never be convicted in court. It's true that there are 803 00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:56,560 Speaker 1: additional cases wherein a killer is revealed after their death 804 00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:59,640 Speaker 1: or while confessing on their deathbed. But going to our 805 00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:05,320 Speaker 1: early your point about about people falsely confessing to things, 806 00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:11,040 Speaker 1: there's also this troubling phenomenon wherein someone perhaps due to 807 00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:17,000 Speaker 1: uh the dementia of age, or to some other desire, right, uh, 808 00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:21,360 Speaker 1: some condition or desire, they will falsely confess to something 809 00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:26,160 Speaker 1: they never did, and then people say, well, maybe they 810 00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,200 Speaker 1: were this uncaught person. But in this case, the in 811 00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:32,239 Speaker 1: these cases, rather the murderers listed in this episode have 812 00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:35,719 Speaker 1: not been caught. Several of them walk free as we 813 00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:38,960 Speaker 1: record this. I don't know if we should add a 814 00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:42,239 Speaker 1: moral to this. I don't know if there is one. 815 00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:46,480 Speaker 1: I think maybe instead we add a call for your help, 816 00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:51,360 Speaker 1: both on behalf of the survivors and uh behalf of 817 00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:55,120 Speaker 1: your fellow listeners, and on our behalf as well. Do 818 00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:58,360 Speaker 1: you live near any of these areas where you alive 819 00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:02,480 Speaker 1: while these crimes we're taking place. In the course of 820 00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:06,000 Speaker 1: our research for this episode, you know, we found numerous 821 00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:10,520 Speaker 1: numerous cases of unsolved crimes from say the seventeen hundreds 822 00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:15,759 Speaker 1: or the eighteen hundreds, well before criminologists had even attempted 823 00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:20,240 Speaker 1: to make a term to encapsulate this sort of practice. 824 00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:24,000 Speaker 1: But those those crimes have even less of a chance 825 00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:26,680 Speaker 1: of being solved. These crimes, well, they have a very 826 00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:31,200 Speaker 1: very very slim hope of being solved. Are still not 827 00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:35,640 Speaker 1: completely impossible to crack today. So right to us on 828 00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:39,600 Speaker 1: social media where we are at Conspiracy Stuff on Twitter 829 00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:43,000 Speaker 1: and Facebook. We also have a new Facebook group called 830 00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:45,919 Speaker 1: Here's where it Gets Crazy, because that's the place where 831 00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:48,759 Speaker 1: it gets crazy is in that Facebook group, and you can, 832 00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:50,359 Speaker 1: you know, you can sign up and it will send 833 00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:52,040 Speaker 1: us a thing and if if, if we think you've 834 00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:58,080 Speaker 1: got the stuff, accept you. Yeah, we accept everybody. We do. 835 00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:01,400 Speaker 1: It's a great place to discuss an episode if you 836 00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:04,399 Speaker 1: just want to talk with somebody else about it, and 837 00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:08,239 Speaker 1: maybe nobody in your close family or friend group is 838 00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:11,839 Speaker 1: interested in a specific thing, go there. There will be 839 00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:13,520 Speaker 1: people who want to talk with you about it, and 840 00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:16,440 Speaker 1: I guarantee it has the potential to create some fodder 841 00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:19,799 Speaker 1: for future episodes and future discussions. Right here on the 842 00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:22,560 Speaker 1: show and jumping right back into social media, we are 843 00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,319 Speaker 1: Conspiracy Stuff Show on Instagram. Find us there, and if 844 00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:27,759 Speaker 1: you don't want to link with us in any of 845 00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:31,680 Speaker 1: those ways, just send us an email. We are conspiracy 846 00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:52,759 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com.