1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: Hi, this is newt Twenty twenty is going to be 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: one of the most extraordinary election years of our lifetime. 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: I want to invite you to join my Inner Circle 4 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: as we discuss each twist and turn in the presidential race. 5 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: In my members only Inner Circle Club, you'll receive special 6 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: flash briefings, online events, and members only audio reports from 7 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: me and my team. Here is a special offer for 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: my podcast listeners. 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Join my Inner Circle today at Newtcenter 13 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: Circle dot com slash Podcast use the Code podcast at checkout. 14 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 1: Sign up today at Newtcenter Circle dot com slash podcast 15 00:00:51,880 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: and use the Code podcast Hurry this Offtway Spires February fourteenth. 16 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World, Klissa and I recently 17 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: visited South Korea on a really rapid trip which included 18 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: visiting the capital of Seoul, going up to the demilitarized Zone, 19 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: and visiting the five G developments at Samsung. It was 20 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:25,759 Speaker 1: just a remarkable reminder of what a miracle or modern 21 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,119 Speaker 1: South Korea has become. I felt that in part because 22 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: my dad served there in nineteen fifty three during the 23 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: war and then went back later and served in the 24 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: late sixties, and to see the poverty, the pain, the 25 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: destruction of the South Korea he served in a nineteen 26 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: fifty three and this gigantic city of ten million, the 27 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: fourth largest metropolitan area in the world, Soul today is 28 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: like a modern miracle, partly a testimony to the South 29 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: Korean people, partly a testimony to the patients and commitment 30 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: of the United States. And the Solo met Palln area 31 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: has over twenty five million people, about half the population 32 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: of South Korea. It's fascinating, and I thought worth talking 33 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: about the Korean Peninsula, the whole peninsula, because of some 34 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:26,359 Speaker 1: of the contrast between North and South. We're very fortunate 35 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: to have doctor Stephen Narper who's with us today and 36 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: who's a real expert on this topic, and it's going 37 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: to help us have a much better sense of understanding 38 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: before we get into Korea. Steve, would you sort of 39 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: give us a little bit of an introduction. How did 40 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: you get so interested in Korea? Well, like you, I 41 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: was fascinated with the period after the Korean War. I 42 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:55,839 Speaker 1: grew up in a family with five adopted siblings from Korea, 43 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 1: so the memory of the war had some perpetuation to 44 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: establishment of the adoption network, and a lot of young 45 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: Korean Americans who made their way here identified with a 46 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: lot of the cultural issues, but actually worked a lot 47 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: on issues of human rights and political repression. And now 48 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 1: I'm at the Korea Society, that's an American engeo based 49 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: out of New York. So it's been an interesting journey, 50 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: and I've now spent over three decades dealing with Korea 51 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: on a daily basis, and it's been fascinating. We know, yes, 52 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 1: because I'm a historian, both by training in by the 53 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: way my mind works. I was very struck Cliff Flower 54 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: in Korea five or six years ago and we went 55 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: to their war museum, which is really quite remarkable, but 56 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: the centerpiece of their war museums not the Korean War 57 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: that we would relate to, but rather medieval warship which 58 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: protected Korea in the Middle Ages, because Korea was consistently 59 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: threatened both by the Japanese and by the Chinese. And 60 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: so if you don't mind take us back for a 61 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: couple of minutes into the deeper roots of the Korean 62 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: experience and what is Korean nous and how did they 63 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: emerge surrounded by these two bigger countries and struggling for 64 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: a unique identity. Right, It's a great question because the 65 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: country came out of a period where there was a 66 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: three kingdoms period where you had a lot of division, 67 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: and then entered into the single longest dynastic reality in 68 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: all of these st asia. They had thirteen centuries of 69 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 1: essentially being a single dynasty. And as they did that, 70 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: they did encounter the challenges of their neighbors. It earned 71 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: at the title hermit kingdom, and that it appeared to 72 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 1: be isolated, but it opened up to the west in 73 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 1: the eighties. Historically, people who were a Korean, as I 74 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: understand it, took great pride and being Korean and would 75 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:04,119 Speaker 1: all basically have unified. Is a single unified culture in 76 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: contrast to the Russians to the north of the Siberians 77 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: actually before the Russians, and then the Chinese to their 78 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: west and Japanese to the east. Is that a reasonable 79 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 1: way of describing them. Certainly, the Korean Peninsula has become 80 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: the destiny for its people because the mountains meant a 81 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: more rigorous reality. It's reflected in the durability of the 82 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: people in terms of the spicy cuisine and in terms 83 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: of the national character. It has had an amazing amount 84 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: of resilience. It has had to learn to both repel 85 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: and adapt to the realities of China to the west, 86 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 1: and Japan to the east, Russia to the north, and 87 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 1: in the modern context, dealing with the Americans and other 88 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: international interests. So that political reality has also made it 89 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: extremely adept in terms of what happened after the Korean War, 90 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: in terms of the stand up and two generations. It's 91 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: largely a nation defined by the minchuk, by the ethnicity 92 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 1: of the Korean people. So national identity is incredibly important. 93 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: And as it's become more politically and economically viable, that 94 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 1: means that that sense of identity has grown with it, 95 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: and there's a strong sense of pride, which you've detected 96 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: in your visits. Starting in the late eighteen eighties, the 97 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: United States began to open them up from the sea, 98 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: and in particular, our interests were missionary activities. This was 99 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: the great wave of American missionaries going to China as 100 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: well as Korea. I was very struck when close to 101 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: it became the ambassador to the Vatican. The very first 102 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: event we went to was a Korean sponsored series of 103 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 1: pictures and paintings and things about Christianity in Korea. The 104 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:59,039 Speaker 1: degree of difficulty had faced, and in particular in the north, 105 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 1: the degree to which if it still exists to exist 106 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: in the mountains, with people who are literally prepared to 107 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,679 Speaker 1: virtually starve for their religious beliefs. In the South, of course, 108 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: it became a much bigger part. I think about five 109 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: percent of Korea is now Christian and it seems to 110 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: be a fairly significant piece of the leadership of the country. 111 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,679 Speaker 1: It is, and it's been fascinating because Christianity has taken 112 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: hold in Korea in a way that it clearly hasn't 113 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: in China or Japan. And while in the late eighteen 114 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: hundreds that missionary activity first met resistance and there were 115 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: many missionaries killed in the process of educating and evangelizing, 116 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: it left a lasting impact in a very positive way 117 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: in terms of the structure of the educational system. A 118 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: lot of schools opened, in terms of healthcare, hospitals and 119 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: so Koreans who at that time were poor and were 120 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: suffering under Japanese subjugation. On the early twentieth century came around. 121 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: It provided an outlet for them, and it provided education, 122 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: medical care, and support. And as Korea then became liberated 123 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: after nineteen forty five, South Korea became very active. Really, 124 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: when you land in Soul, you see, especially at night, 125 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: lit crosses. It's a city of crosses. And it's interesting 126 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: that you mentioned North Korea because people may not realize, 127 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: but at the turn of the twentieth century, Chiangang was 128 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: regarded as the Jerusalem of the East. That was the 129 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: term widely used. Well, the US had a great deal 130 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:36,719 Speaker 1: of missionary activity in Korea that was voluntary. In the end, 131 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: Korea was not central to the US, and in particular 132 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 1: the United States decided that it had other things over 133 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 1: far more important, and as seen by the Koreans, have 134 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: betrayed them. And could you comment for a second and 135 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: the impact of the Taft Cotsura Treaty and the whole 136 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,439 Speaker 1: feeling had created in Korea. The nineteen oh five taff 137 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: Cuts or agreement essentially was an understanding between the Secretary 138 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: of War William Howard Taft and the Japanese Prime Minister Katsura, 139 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: where the Philippines and the control of it was basically 140 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: traded off to the Americans in exchange for control of 141 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: Korean peninsula to Japan, again not a formal agreement, but 142 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: implicitly and in a discussion of broader policy. The Russell 143 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: Japanese War had just ended. Japan was in a position 144 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: of strength. Ten years earlier, it had defeated China in 145 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:37,079 Speaker 1: the Sino Japanese War, so it then began to expand. 146 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: It was colonial Japan at that point, and it took 147 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: Korea in nineteen oh five and formally annexed it in 148 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:47,079 Speaker 1: nineteen ten, and that then began an almost four decade 149 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: legacy of oppressive colonial occupation which rob Koreans of their identity. 150 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: They lost their names, they had to take Japanese names, 151 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: they lost their standing, They were forced many to exi 152 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: to labor in Japan or in very poor conditions in Korea. 153 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: There were gross human rights abuses, and so this period 154 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: between the formal annexation in nineteen ten and liberation after 155 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: the defeat of Japan in nineteen forty five was one 156 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: that is remembered by Koreans as a period of tremendous 157 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:25,719 Speaker 1: brutality of a national disgrace and embarrassment of a foreign occupation. 158 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: Then all of a sudden, this remarkably independent country that 159 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: had been balancing for well over a thousand years between 160 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: China and Japan is suddenly overwhelmed by the rise of 161 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 1: the modern industrialized Japanese in nineteen oh five, and they 162 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: really run the country with a ruthlessness that is sort 163 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: of a foreshadowing of how they will behave in World 164 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 1: War Two. Can you talk a little bit about the 165 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: degree to which the Japanese ran the country, the way 166 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: they did it, and the kind of memories that that 167 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: has left. Between nineteen ten and nineteen forty five, Korea 168 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: was formally annexed as a territory of Japan, and so 169 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: it was administered by Japan. There was a prefectual government, 170 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: there were local Japanese administrators. It was run as something 171 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: of a military type regime, and the population worked to 172 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,439 Speaker 1: the benefit of Japan. Most of the economic goods were 173 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: shipped to Japan, Labor was shipped to Japan, and many Koreans, 174 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,319 Speaker 1: in the course of losing their identities, then became conscripted 175 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: labors in Japan, and it was a poor period for 176 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 1: the Koreans. It was also the birth of their independence 177 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 1: period because in nineteen nineteen they stood up a large 178 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 1: opposition among the students and intelligentsia and labor forces against Japan. 179 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 1: And it's one that really was very long, tragic and 180 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: cruel in its disposition, and it didn't alleviate itself until 181 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: nineteen forty five. We've just marked one hundredth anniversary of 182 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: the nineteen nineteen movement, which was popular uprise, and it 183 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: was the singular period when the intelligentsia, students and labor gathered. 184 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: It was resistance against the Japanese. And it was in 185 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:15,439 Speaker 1: that year too that there was the evolution of a 186 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: government in exile, and that was largely one in China. 187 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 1: But it was a time of great national suffering, and 188 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: it was a time of the loss of identity, and 189 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: Korea was largely seen as a backwater. It was a 190 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 1: poorer area, it wasn't seen as strategically vital. And the Philippines, 191 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 1: on the other hand, provided you a more obvious trade 192 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: entree into Southeast Asia and it appeared to have more 193 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: on offer for US economic interest. I think it's important 194 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: to remember that the world war was enormous, and that 195 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: the United States was faced with, they thought the prospect 196 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: of invading Japan, which they thought would probably kill a 197 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: million American and seven or eight million Japanese. And at 198 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: that point Stalin offered to having defeated the Germans, that 199 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: a substantial part of the Soviet army would liberate part 200 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 1: of China and part of Korea. And it was in 201 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: that context of trying to find a balance of power 202 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:26,119 Speaker 1: really with the Soviet Union, that we ended up deciding 203 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: that there would be two Koreas. It raises really interesting 204 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: questions about whether, for example, if we had said we 205 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: don't care, you'd have had a totally communist Korea and 206 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: that would have been a different world. Or if we 207 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 1: had said to the Soviets, we're not going to tolerate 208 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: you south of the Lu, that would have led to 209 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: a different world. But at the time, I think our 210 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: basic attitude was, look, we've been fighting a big war. 211 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: We just want to get it over with. The troops 212 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: want to go home. Let's find some common sense agreement. 213 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: And you probably had almost nobody who knew anything about 214 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 1: Korean history or Korean culture involved in the decision making, 215 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: and so that was the simplest way to decide, and 216 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 1: at the time it actually left the North with most 217 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: of the industry and most of the population and most 218 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:16,199 Speaker 1: of the wealth. I mean, people tend to free it 219 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: now because the situation is so radically different. But it 220 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: was not clear at all in nineteen forty five that 221 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: the South could survive economically, certainly not clear that it 222 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: would become a democracy in any foreseeable future. Does that 223 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: strike you as about right? That's exactly right. And that 224 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: led to the ambivalence of the German administration in terms 225 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: of how to deal with entry into the Korean War. 226 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: At the time, the American population fought of Korea as 227 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: the third conflict after World War One, after World War Two, 228 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: and there were a lot of questions about the willingness 229 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: to engage in what was seen as a rather far 230 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: off place, especially after the difficulties of having dealt with 231 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: the nightmare of impre Japan and having ended that with 232 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: the bombings at Russia and Nagasaki, and really a lack 233 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: of a national will to be involved yet again in 234 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: another conflict. As soon as nineteen fifty, I think the 235 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: shock of the North Koreans coming across the border in 236 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: June twenty fifth, nineteen fifty and the quality of the 237 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: North Korean army which had been developed. Kimo Song had 238 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: been picked by Stalin. He was a anti Japanese guerrilla 239 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: fighter who had worked very very hard to be acceptable 240 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: as a Stalinist, and so he became the head of 241 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: North Korea. He was vaguely associated with the Communist in China, 242 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: but the Communist in China we're seen as not totally 243 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: regular communist. Stalin had some mild interest in North Korea 244 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: and Kimo Song. So everybody in a campaign in the 245 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: winter of nineteen forty nine early nineteen fifty literally a 246 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: campaign to go out and convinced both Stalin and Maosedung 247 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: that North Korea could unify the country, that the Americans 248 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: clearly would not intervene, and that it would consolidate communism 249 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: on the Asian continent. He had a commitment of some 250 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: support from Stalin, although it was always dubious because Stalin 251 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: was very hard to pin down, and he had a 252 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: commitment in which Stalin had leaned on Maud Again of 253 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: some possible support from Mao, although the primary reason the 254 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: Chinese would come into the war was that they were 255 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: not going to tolerate the Americans being that close to 256 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: the mainland. Well, no, you're right, and that's a fundamentally 257 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: important period because what happened in March of nineteen forty 258 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: nine was Kimmelsung went to Moscow and tried to appeal 259 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: to Stalin and say, look, I'd like your support to 260 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: unify the cramp and Stalin really didn't have interest. It 261 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: was only a year and a month later, in April 262 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: of nineteen fifty that Stalin signaled that this was permissible. 263 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: And there were really a couple of factors that played 264 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: into mind. One was that the Chinese Civil War had 265 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: essentially ended with the PRC in control, and so with 266 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 1: mainland China more unified, Stalin saw an opportunity to also 267 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 1: peg Russian interest. Secondly, the Soviets had developed their own 268 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,959 Speaker 1: atomic capability, and so with the Soviet bomb it felt 269 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 1: bullish in it felt that it could be more expansionary, 270 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 1: and that then created the concern in the United States 271 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: about the Domino effect and trying to curtail the forward 272 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: role of communism. All those factors come into play that 273 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: in a very unhealthy way, then lead to kimmel Sung 274 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: feeling empowered in June of nineteen fifty to roll forward 275 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:01,360 Speaker 1: over the thirty eighth parallel after some skirmishes by both 276 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 1: north and south. There was a Russian protectorate that grew 277 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: up north of the thirty eighth parallel and an American 278 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: protectorate that grew up south of the thirtieth parallel. How 279 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: did they arrive at that? To colonels in Washington, d c. 280 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: They essentially threw a dart at the board and that 281 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: was what stuck. And that's how the Koreans, certainly those 282 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: of a more nationalistic orientations see it when they are 283 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: concerned about the division of the peninsula. But let's remember 284 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: the division of the Korean Peninsula may well have been 285 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: a result of US and Soviet determination, and that became 286 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 1: what is essentially the area that after the Korean War 287 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty three was marked off as the Demilitarized Ule. 288 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: When we come back, it's one of the more definitive 289 00:18:46,480 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 1: and fascinating areas of US military history. The Korean War 290 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: itself is an amazing period because we clearly were unprepared. 291 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: We had too smaller unit in Japan, they were too 292 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: badly trained, they were under equipped. We really relaxed dramatically 293 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 1: from nineteen forty five after winning World War Two, and 294 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: yet we were able between June twenty fifth and early 295 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 1: September to stop the North Koreans around the Pussan perimeter, 296 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: organized an amphibious landing and land an inchon behind the 297 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: North Koreans, cutting off their logistics and collapsing their army. 298 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 1: And what's one of the most classic campaigns in history, 299 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: matched then by the hubris of Douglas MacArthur, who had 300 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: launched the campaign brilliantly and then sort of became blinded 301 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,120 Speaker 1: by his own success and refused to believe that the 302 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: Chi these communists would come in and set up a 303 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:09,360 Speaker 1: stunning moment of total strategic surprise in November of nineteen 304 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 1: fifty that led to one of the largest American defeats 305 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: and histories. To me, it's an amazing The whole process 306 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty is just astonishing. You're absolutely right. Note 307 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: it's one of the more definitive and fascinating areas of 308 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: US military history. Clearly, the fact that they were able 309 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 1: to push back from the parameter really showed an incredible 310 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: amount of resolve. The fact that Incheon took place one 311 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: hundred miles north of North Korean lines. It was a 312 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: remarkable accomplishment and what they achieved and the roll up 313 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,919 Speaker 1: to the Yellow but MacArthur wanted to keep forces that 314 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: far north. But clearly the rollback by the German administration 315 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: toward the thirty eighth parallel then meant that all of 316 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: that activity that you saw there in the first year 317 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: led to a fallen two years of relative stalemates and 318 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: then eventually the armistice in nineteen fifty three. But you 319 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 1: note that what happened in December of nineteen fifty the 320 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: first mass evacuation under the auspices of the United Nations. 321 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: The US led from Hungnam and the current President munjayns 322 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: parents were part of the Hongam evacuation. Stunning. Now million 323 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: Koreans today owe their lineage to those who were evacuated 324 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 1: from Hungnam over a hundred and twelve thousand people. Just 325 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: a remarkable effort and feats of tremendous bravery on small 326 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: vessels that made their way out, including a Ship of 327 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: Miracles that saw a resolute Korean stand for three or 328 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: four days before they reached their destination, that saw multiple 329 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: bursts on board, and an amazing degree of stavility, pride 330 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 1: and stoicism, and tremendous eroics by United States forces as 331 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: they had to evacuate out of the Chosen Sabar and 332 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,879 Speaker 1: as they made their way to Hungam and then South, 333 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: and tremendous loss of American life to protect those refugees, 334 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: many of whom have gone on to help build modern 335 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 1: Korea as it is today. Do you have any idea 336 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: what share of the North Korean population voluntarily went south? 337 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 1: A lot of North Koreans did go south, and that's 338 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: why two thirds of the peninsula in terms of population 339 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: are in the South and only a third in the North. 340 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 1: And so in the war gradually grinds to a halt, 341 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: partially because we prove we're determined enough to stop the Chinese, 342 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: and the Chinese feel like they've sort of made their 343 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: point that they wanted let us go north, and Eisenhower 344 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 1: in all probability communicated through the Indians that if he 345 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: had to, he would go to nuclear weapons. At that point, 346 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 1: there is an armistice, which when we were visiting recently, 347 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: it's amazing to realize technically there's still an armistice. I mean, 348 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: technically they are still a war, and that the armistice 349 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: has been helding now for sixty three years, which strikes 350 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: me a sort of an astonishing comment on the world. 351 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: You could have this not war, not peace relationship right 352 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 1: this stalemate, and it's one where the armistice really was 353 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 1: by design only meant to last for a very short 354 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: time weeks or a few months. But as you mentioned it, 355 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: it has stretched itself out now towards seven decades and 356 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: has left a relatively stable situation, I mean safe for 357 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 1: some flare ups along the de militarized zone and along 358 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: the northern limit line out in the West Sea over time, 359 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,719 Speaker 1: but it has been a relatively stable fixture. The United 360 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: States is a signatory, as is North Korea. China managed 361 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: to skirt mal was clever in terms of having it 362 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: signed only by Chinese voluntary Army, which gives them some 363 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: of an out, but in the eventual resolution, clearly China 364 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 1: will probably have to step up with any peace mechanism 365 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: that's put in place. But South Korea interestingly chose not 366 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: to sign it because a Sigmund Rie the president was 367 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 1: vociferous in his opposition to not uniting the Korean peninsula, 368 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: and so South Korea technically is not a signatory. But 369 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: what Moon Jay and the President now would like to 370 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: do is very much have North South, the United States 371 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: and China in someplace highly symbolic to sign something of 372 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: an end of war statement and beyond that a piece 373 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: treaty that replaces the armistice. Tell me about how the 374 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: Kims came to power. There was a civil conflict taking 375 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,880 Speaker 1: place on the peninsula, and so the Kim family emerged 376 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 1: first with Kimmel's Sung who became the leader with the 377 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: imposition and support by Stalin. And Kimmel's Sung had been 378 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: a colonial fighter, and he used that legitimacy in the 379 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: fight against the Japanese to rally support in his contest 380 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: for leadership. And then it really you have the growth 381 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: of the cult of the Kim family. It was Kim 382 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: Il Sung who then maintained control until his death in 383 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four, and then that continues through his son 384 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: after nineteen ninety four, when Kim Jong Ill enters onto 385 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: the scene. More fully, he had been groomed for a 386 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: long period to succeed his father, and you have not 387 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: only a communist succession as it were, but but really 388 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: more a Confucian dynastic succession, and then that continues through 389 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 1: through his excesses. And you may recall that Kim Jong 390 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 1: il was guilty of terrorist incidents and again gross human 391 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 1: rights abuses and mounting a very serious security challenge as 392 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 1: he had his military first agenda, and then now since 393 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: his passing in twenty eleven, the assumption of power by 394 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 1: Kim Jong un, who has emerged on the one hand 395 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: as more of a seemingly globally inclined leader. He seems 396 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: to like the stage more than his father, although that 397 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: is more phenomenon of the last year or two. But 398 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: the repression has not subsided, and the Gulag still exists 399 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 1: with as many as one hundred and twenty thousand North 400 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: Korea in detention camps. With a very serious security challenge 401 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: which has been a pre eminent concern. It was the 402 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: one passed from the Obama to Trump administrations in a 403 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,199 Speaker 1: December twenty sixteen classified briefing and has been defined by 404 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: the Trump administration as the dominant national security concern, and 405 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 1: that is the missile and nuclear improvements enhancements by North 406 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: Korea and now a very lethal range in its weaponry 407 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: and capabilities, with the ability to strike the entire continental 408 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: US through the development of ICBMs and with a very 409 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: strong nuclear capability. The sixth test, which was concluded in 410 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: September two years ago, had a yield of two hundred 411 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:01,360 Speaker 1: and seventy kilotons, or about seventeen times the size of Hiroshima. 412 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: So tremendous lethality. And that is what the United States 413 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 1: and international community you're meant on doing now as to 414 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: curb North Korean developments on the nuclear and missile front. 415 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,679 Speaker 1: And there's a long list of other concerns to include 416 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 1: human rights. When we come back the model of Korea 417 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: as a harbinger for democracy in a time of writing 418 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: autocracy Korea is really essentially important. You have two radically 419 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: different systems. You have one which is a totalitarian dictatorship 420 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: deliberately isolated from the world and representing a level of 421 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 1: poverty that's unbelievable. And you have one which is a 422 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:06,719 Speaker 1: democracy with the very vibrant civil society and engage worldwide 423 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 1: in commercial development. And you can the easiest way to 424 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 1: summarize it is to look at a map at night 425 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: where you can see where the boundary is. Because south 426 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: of the boundary there's all sorts of electric lights of 427 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: a prosperous, free South Korea, and north of the boundary 428 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 1: there are almost no electric lights because they're so poverty 429 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,159 Speaker 1: stricken in the dictatorship. There are very few places on 430 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: the planet where you have a stark and clear a 431 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: distinction between North and South Korea. And what makes it 432 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: really dangerous is that the North does have nuclear weapons, 433 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: and even before it had nuclear weapons, it has probably 434 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty thousand artillery pieces and missiles that 435 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: are within reach of Solve Soul. Souls the fourth largest 436 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 1: urban area in the world and very very vulnerable to 437 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: a North Korean first strike even with conventional weapons. So 438 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: you have a balance of prosperity versus tyranny that always 439 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: makes it dangerous, although so far the North Korean dictatorships 440 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: desire to survive has kept it relatively stable and relatively 441 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: risk avoiding. I think it would be my guess, But 442 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: what would you say, Steven, That's exactly right, and that's 443 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: a brilliant summary. The South Koreans really present us with 444 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: so many testimonials and opportunities. One to the strength of 445 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: the US Korea Alliance and what that has meant in 446 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 1: terms of US alliance relationships, with not only the security relationship, 447 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: but with heavy aid investment and with business investment. Over time, 448 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: Korea mobilizing itself through the strength of its people over 449 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: two generations to really the economic powerhouse it is now 450 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: to now be the tenth largest global economy, with brands 451 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: like Samsung, Kunde and LG winning through its soft power, 452 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: hearts and minds globally clearly the strength of Korean film, 453 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: k pop and other things that have appeal. And then 454 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: very importantly to myself as a political scientist, the model 455 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: of Korea as a harbinger for democracy in a time 456 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: of rising autocracy and rollbacks to democracy, and so Korea 457 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: is really essentially important. It has modeled for other places 458 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: like Mongolia in terms of its democratic transition, and it's 459 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: an important place in the Asia Pacific for staking democratic values. 460 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: And then in contrast, you really do have the start 461 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: to talentarian government in the North. And while much of 462 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: the popular media lately has focused on the young leader 463 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 1: and with some fascination, and there has generally been a 464 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: mythology with global interests around the Kim family and all 465 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: of its oddness and all its cultures, behavior. It's a 466 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: very serious challenger on the international stage in terms of 467 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: the conventional force thread, in terms of missiles and news, 468 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: chemical and biological, in terms of human rights concerns. In 469 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: terms of its challenges, is a developmental state where eighty 470 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: percent of its population is living in abject poverty, where 471 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: basic agriculture, energy, food stuff, and healthcare needs are not 472 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: being met. Where the United Nations is making broad appeals 473 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: because of challenges natural disasters, and challenges on the health front, 474 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: where things like tuberculosis and multi strain resistant tuberculosis are 475 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:45,479 Speaker 1: an increasing reality, which has a transnational aspect which presents 476 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: a challenge in the event of political instability by way 477 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: of tumult and potential for outflows of refugees and the 478 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: pandemics that follow them, and questions about control of the 479 00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 1: nuclear stockpile, issues of nuclear safety and importantly things like 480 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: cyber crime today where the North Koreans derive over a 481 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: billion dollars annually in revenues from cyber theft, and where 482 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: to employ your most recent podcasts where you have five 483 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: g miracles in South Korea and you have a nation 484 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: that as of December first had three carriers within six months, 485 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: will have nationwide five G coverage that is sophisticated and 486 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: wired beyond any other place on Earth, and it was 487 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: the first nation in the Asia Pacific to enter onto 488 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: the five G scene. And then you have the cyber 489 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: criminals in North Korea mounting their attacks from both within 490 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: North Korea as well as from within China. So it's 491 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: a tremendous challenge in many, many areas of security, political, economic, 492 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: and otherwise. And that is why it's received so much 493 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 1: focus and why the symmetry too that has gone on 494 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: in recent and recent months has derived a great deal 495 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: of international attention. Why the sanctions regime is in place 496 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: to curtail the and nuclear developments. Let me ask you 497 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: a sort of a summary question. Given all of your 498 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: years of experience, as you looked down the road, would 499 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: you describe yourself as an optimist or a pessimist? First, 500 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: reach some kind of stabilizing agreement on weapons, and second, 501 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: actually begin to see the North Korean regime evolve towards 502 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 1: a more prosperous and more humane system. I see myself 503 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: as very much a cautious optimist. I think there's tremendous potential, 504 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 1: part of which is in the character of the Korean 505 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: people and in what we've seen by way of their adaptability, 506 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: their flexibility, and the rise of South Korea. As much 507 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 1: as the international media says what's the model for North Korea? 508 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: Is it China, is it Vietnam or elsewhere? Really the 509 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 1: best models to the south of the demilitarized zone, and 510 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: they will look there for South Korean investment and opportunity. 511 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: As the Munjay illustration continues. It's a path toward inter 512 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,719 Speaker 1: Korean reconciliation. We've had important progress in the last year, 513 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 1: including the opening of communications hotlines and the destruction of 514 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: some of the guard posts along the militarized zone. Just 515 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,760 Speaker 1: in December, you had North and South Korean troops walking together, smoking, 516 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 1: conversing as they inspected those destroyed North Korean outposts. You've 517 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: had a moratorium in place by North Korea. I think 518 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:31,840 Speaker 1: ultimately North Koreans, because they consider themselves strategically isolated and 519 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: because they are economically disadvantaged, will come to the table 520 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,320 Speaker 1: on this. I think that the challenge for the international 521 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: community is convincing Kim Jong un that security is not 522 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: derived from having the weaponry in place, but security is 523 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,840 Speaker 1: derived from giving up that weaponry and realizing the economic 524 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: opportunities that have been put forward by the South Korean 525 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,760 Speaker 1: United States administrations as well as by the international community, 526 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: and its encouragement North Korea to embrace a more peaceful path. 527 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 1: In terms of the question though about its ability to 528 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: become softer and gentler, there will be questions if it 529 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: modifies itself. It is doing that for regime survivability purposes. 530 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,720 Speaker 1: It's a conservative, little c conservative impulse to maintain itself, 531 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: to maintain the Kim family legacy. So I would argue 532 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: against Kim Jong un is a great economic reformer or 533 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,240 Speaker 1: a visionary that way, I think he's tacking. He's younger 534 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: through the guise of a thirty five year old man, 535 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,839 Speaker 1: He's trying to adapt the nation to a reality that's 536 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 1: more economically vibrant. He no doubt realizes he has an 537 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: economic basket case outside of Peong young and needs international 538 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: support in a lessening of sanctions. Part of what happens 539 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: in a Confucian system, and we should think of this 540 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: less as a communist regime and much more as a 541 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: Confucian dynastic regime, is that he is accountable to the people. 542 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: There's an accountability factor, and he has to provide for 543 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 1: the generals who have been on the take in this kleptocracy, 544 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: for the business leaders who are now emerging and the 545 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: supposed rising middle class, and for young North Koreans. And 546 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: young North Koreans are more concerned about mobile phones and 547 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 1: mobility and they're hearing a message about life in South 548 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,320 Speaker 1: Korea about a better world. So the question then becomes 549 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 1: how long can they maintain that facade when we're the 550 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: big cracks in the veneer and do information flows finally 551 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,840 Speaker 1: make a difference where when the economy improves, you have 552 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 1: rising expectations and new as a history and you well 553 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: know it's when the economy's are rising that revolutions happen 554 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 1: and will there ultimately be political change, And that's not 555 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 1: factored in very well in a lot of analyzes today 556 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: because of the concern be it warranted with the security challenges, 557 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:51,320 Speaker 1: But we need to see this in a much broader 558 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 1: light because what we want eventually is some sort of 559 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 1: peaceful integration, and the Korean people want an integration and 560 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 1: a unification. But younger South Koreans they're concerned about economic slowdown, 561 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: they're concerned about job opportunities, and there has been a 562 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 1: shift in the political scene that reflects that. So gradual 563 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 1: integration seems to be what we're hearing in terms of 564 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,280 Speaker 1: the events of both South and North Korea. That plays 565 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: out over time, that allows for economic inputs to lessen 566 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 1: the burden, because it will be a very expensive and 567 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: complex process. And beyond that, if there's sudden upheaval in 568 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: the North, which is within the realm of possibility, if 569 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 1: there are pockets of resistance after these purges, if there 570 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: are rises and expectations, and eventually over time and social movements, 571 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 1: then it's anyone's guests. And that too will have tremendous 572 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,400 Speaker 1: demands on the United States and on the international community. 573 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: So this is a complex process. So the Korean War 574 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 1: years have had a legacy, and while it has been 575 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:50,800 Speaker 1: relatively stable, and while South Korea has emerged as a vibrant, 576 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: vibrant political and economic model, there will be challenges ahead 577 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 1: as it figures out how to integrate North Korea. But 578 00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 1: ultimately I'm optimistic because a United Korea will be a 579 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 1: powerful entity that will have sixty plus million people, and 580 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: once they have weathered the changes that are required and 581 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,759 Speaker 1: the economic inputs that will be necessary, will be an 582 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 1: important player, perhaps along the line of a France or 583 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 1: Germany in the Asia Pacific, and it will be a 584 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 1: different world. And it's good to maintain that US Korea 585 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,239 Speaker 1: relationship in a very positive light because it will be 586 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:29,279 Speaker 1: ultimately in America's interest, whether it's sharing in technology in 587 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 1: five G, whether it is the democratic values that are 588 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 1: shared and economic prosperity and stability, because only around the 589 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 1: Korean peninsula to the first, second, third, and tenth largest 590 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 1: economies in our world meet like you, I think I 591 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: am moderately optimistic. Hey, I think unification is probably a 592 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: very long way off, but I think gradual reduction of 593 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:56,840 Speaker 1: the tyranny, gradual opening up of the North, and a 594 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: sense of prosperity being actual possible is very realistic in 595 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 1: the next decade. And I suspect that Kim Jong un 596 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: is faced with extraordinarily complicated balancing act between an old 597 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 1: order which has sacrificed for its entire lifetime to be 598 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 1: an isolated hermit dictatorship with no hope of breaking out. 599 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 1: And they're real I think, since that the world is 600 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 1: passing them by and that the gap is now so 601 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,879 Speaker 1: enormous that they've got to find some way to give 602 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 1: the people hope and to find a model that doesn't 603 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,320 Speaker 1: give up the dictatorship, but that does make it possible 604 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,400 Speaker 1: for it to start evolving into the modern world. So certainly, 605 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 1: I think the folks like my father who fought there 606 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: in the fifties would be amazed and delighted to visit 607 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 1: soul Career today and realize how much had grown up 608 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: behind our shield and how much the people that they 609 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,320 Speaker 1: had helped and worked and fought beside I had created 610 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 1: a better future in Korea, and I think that we 611 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 1: might get to the next stage in the next generation. 612 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,399 Speaker 1: So I want to thank you for sharing those your 613 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 1: expertise in your knowledge, and I think it's very helpful 614 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,880 Speaker 1: for people who are trying to get a better context 615 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 1: to understand everything that's going on between the United States 616 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:26,759 Speaker 1: and North Korea. Well, thank you Newton, and thanks for 617 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,880 Speaker 1: the sacrifice of your father and so many others in 618 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: your right. It's been an impressive and amazing development on 619 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,560 Speaker 1: the Kuran Peninsula, and it's one where we do have 620 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 1: a real stake, and we have a stake going forward. 621 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,880 Speaker 1: So let's hope for again peace, prosperity, a reduction of 622 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,440 Speaker 1: tensions and eventually liberation for the people of the northern 623 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,320 Speaker 1: half of the peninsula, because they deserve nothing less in 624 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,879 Speaker 1: this modern era than the peace and prosperity that they're 625 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 1: brothers and sisters to the south. Well enjoy. Thank you 626 00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:01,760 Speaker 1: to my guest doctor Stephen Norber. You can see the books, articles, 627 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 1: and documents that we relied on in researching this episode 628 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:10,279 Speaker 1: on our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is 629 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 1: produced by Westwood One. The executive producer is Debbie Myers. 630 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,840 Speaker 1: Our producer is Gornsey Slump. Our editor is Robert Barowski. 631 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 1: Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show 632 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 1: was created by Steve Penley. The music was composed by 633 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: Joey Salvia. Special thanks to the team at Gingwich three 634 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 1: sixty and Westwood One's Tim Sabian and Robert Mathers. Please 635 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:40,839 Speaker 1: email me with your comments at newt at newtsworld dot com. 636 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,040 Speaker 1: If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to 637 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,759 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts and both rate us with five stars and 638 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,800 Speaker 1: give us a review so others can learn what Newtsworld 639 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:55,000 Speaker 1: is all about. On the next episode of Newtsworld, I'll 640 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 1: be presenting another episode of the Immortals. You'll remember we've 641 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:02,759 Speaker 1: already talked about George Washington and Julius Caesar. This time, 642 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:05,440 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell the story of Benjamin Franklin, a 643 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:09,840 Speaker 1: man who personified the American dream. Someone who at a 644 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:15,040 Speaker 1: very young age went from Boston to Philadelphia, apprenticed under 645 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,640 Speaker 1: his uncle to be a printer, turned out in the 646 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,239 Speaker 1: end to be a great businessman, a scientist, one of 647 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,920 Speaker 1: the leading scientists in the world, a politician, a diplomat, 648 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:29,279 Speaker 1: participated in writing the Constitution, participated in writing the Declation Independence, 649 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:36,120 Speaker 1: represented the United States in France. A man of great passion, intelligence, energy, drive, 650 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:40,720 Speaker 1: and toughness. I think you'll find Ben Franklin very interesting. 651 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 1: I'm Newt Gingrich. This is News World.