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Speaker 1: If this is the me Eater podcast coming at you, shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear.

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Speaker 2: Listeningst you can't predict anything presented by First Light creating

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Speaker 2: proven versatile hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear.

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Speaker 1: For every hunt, First Light Go Farther, stay longer, Little

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Speaker 1: inside scoop here for listeners. Brody was just telling me

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Speaker 1: that Brody was just hunting with Hayden Sam. How many

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Speaker 1: times has he won trivia three?

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Speaker 3: No, he was on a hot streak and it's it's

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Speaker 3: been cold for a while.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, because he was the emerging threat and then

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Speaker 1: he became the receiving threat or what was waning champ,

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Speaker 1: the waning championing champion. So Brody's telling me a story

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Speaker 1: in which in private between me and.

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Speaker 3: Brody, so we're gonna talk abouts.

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Speaker 1: Have been open. I don't know, yep, because Brody's telling

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Speaker 1: me about him overcalling Turkey Hunt. And I just stepped

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Speaker 1: outside and he's sitting out there and goes to hey, man,

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Speaker 1: talk to you know. I wasn't overcalling. He's gonna be

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Speaker 1: So it's like, uh were having a private conversation in there.

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Speaker 4: It sounded like I heard it where he was at.

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Speaker 1: He's eaves dropping. He's got like a recording device. It's

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Speaker 1: like the surveillance state. You know, whould appreciate that, Jack

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Speaker 1: car great transition, that.

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Speaker 5: Is, I've never had a transition.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, what are your opinions on eves dropping?

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Speaker 5: You don't like it? Be careful. Yeah, I'm not a

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Speaker 5: big fan, but this is probably the most heavily bugged

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Speaker 5: room in Bozeman.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's Steve's paranoia as well.

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Speaker 5: Uh huh, I get it, I get it. Be careful,

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Speaker 5: that's what I say.

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Speaker 1: No, what we're gonna I'm gonna ask you a little

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Speaker 1: bit about that. Uh, Jack Cars here, New York Times

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Speaker 1: best selling author, like multiple times.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, all of them now, all of them, all of them. Crazy,

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Speaker 5: damn it, man, crazy.

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Speaker 1: No, I don't want to have mine. That's a good

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Speaker 1: track record, New York Times best selling author. Every time

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Speaker 1: a new book out releases on you can order you

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Speaker 1: can pre order it now, but releases on May sixteenth only.

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Speaker 1: The Dead five other previous titles Terminal list. If you

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Speaker 1: guys sit around watching Amazon Prime and you happen to

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Speaker 1: see Chris Pratt and a thing called Terminal list that

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Speaker 1: is and has been for a long time. That's Jack

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Speaker 1: Carr's book that's based off your book now that Jack

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Speaker 1: card I was surprised when we had dinner last night.

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Speaker 1: Not surprised, but pleased to hear when we had dinner

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Speaker 1: last night that you get to be involved in all that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Like from a writing from a writing standpoint, yeah, becau.

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Speaker 5: Usually they get rid of the author right away. They

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Speaker 5: don't want the author to be there and on sat

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Speaker 5: and see what's going on and start and you ruined

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Speaker 5: my vision. And so I like to kind of move

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Speaker 5: the author to the side right away and then bring

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Speaker 5: the writing team in and get going. But I went

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Speaker 5: into it kind of being a kid of the eighties.

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Speaker 5: I grew up reading all these thrillers growing up, and

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Speaker 5: then watching the movies that were adapted from those books

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Speaker 5: and noting the differences and what worked and what didn't,

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Speaker 5: but more so realizing that there was gonna be changes

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Speaker 5: because you are telling a story now through a different medium.

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Speaker 5: You are telling that story visually, so it's going to change.

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Speaker 5: And you have a writer's.

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Speaker 1: Room and your people are gonna it's gonna be two

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Speaker 1: hours long, and.

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Speaker 5: It's gonna be this one is six, so sorry eight.

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Speaker 5: So every episode is about an hour, so those eight episodes.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, you can't tell everything. You have to kind

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Speaker 5: of morph things a little bit. You have to add

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Speaker 5: to things that weren't in the book. So it's just

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Speaker 5: how it goes. But I always thought back when I

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Speaker 5: my first conversation with the show runner, who's like in

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Speaker 5: series television. He's like the director of a feature film,

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Speaker 5: so he's managing multiple directors and he's like the single

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Speaker 5: point of contact for all these different things that go

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Speaker 5: into making a TV show. We had our first conversation

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Speaker 5: in December of twenty nineteen. His name is David Digilio,

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Speaker 5: amazing guy, and I think I put him at ease

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Speaker 5: by talking about First Blood and how First Blood and

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Speaker 5: that came out in nineteen seventy two, it's never been

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Speaker 5: out of print since, written by David Morrell, and the

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Speaker 5: movie with Syvester Stallone in the early eighties. Those are

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Speaker 5: two very different animals, but they're both awesome, but very different.

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Speaker 5: So I knew that there was going to be changes,

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Speaker 5: and more so it was important to Chris and to

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Speaker 5: Antwine and to me was keeping the theme of the book,

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Speaker 5: keep in that spirit alive, even if there were going

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Speaker 5: to be changes. So that's what we did.

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Speaker 1: As as someone who traffics an intrigue and espionage and whatnot.

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Speaker 1: You're familiar with John is does he lock Lacar Leacre?

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Speaker 5: How does he lare? So it is Lacar Yeah, I

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Speaker 5: think so. That's how I've always said it in the

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Speaker 5: last almost fifty years.

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Speaker 1: He's got a great quote where he said, watching your

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Speaker 1: book get made into a movie, this isn't your experience,

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Speaker 1: but he said, watching your book get made into a

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Speaker 1: movie is like watching an ox turned into a bowllyon cube.

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Speaker 5: Interesting, I've not heard him say that one. I've heard

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Speaker 5: similar ones, but not in say that those exact words.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, he and his have been since the seventies.

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Speaker 5: They've been making those into the films and TV shows.

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Speaker 5: And but I mean, what an amazing track record that

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Speaker 5: guy had. He had a good run, you have a

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Speaker 5: solid run, and they'll continue to make his books into

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Speaker 5: films and TV shows going forward. I'm sure what E

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Speaker 5: was I.

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Speaker 1: Going to tell you about? Something about that another film quote. Oh,

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Speaker 1: there's a there's a comedy. You're you're with the comedy

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Speaker 1: the producers I haven't seen Broadway.

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Speaker 5: I know what it is, but I haven't seen it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a line in there where the producers are

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Speaker 1: producing and they get so sick of the writer. As

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Speaker 1: they're making this play, they get so sick of the writer.

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Speaker 1: One of them says, next time, no writers.

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Speaker 5: No writers, have to watch it now because now I

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Speaker 5: can see how that can happen. But now, I was

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Speaker 5: very fortunate the team we put together, starting with Antoine

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Speaker 5: Fuqua and Chris Pratt and that show runner David Gillio.

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Speaker 5: We put such a solid team together, and now we're

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Speaker 5: continuing that into this next spin off, So working on

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Speaker 5: those right now, and I'm writing one of those episodes,

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Speaker 5: and then we'll go right from that into True Believer,

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Speaker 5: which is the second book in the series. So we'll

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Speaker 5: just keep keep going. That's great, Fingers crossed. You never know.

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Speaker 5: So it's actually on the screen, though, So you can't

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Speaker 5: really get too excited till you actually see it on

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Speaker 5: the screen because there's so many things that can derail

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Speaker 5: throughout the whole process. Sure, So it's uh yeah, And

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Speaker 5: so I never really talked even talked about it too

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Speaker 5: much until it actually came out, or until until they

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Speaker 5: started putting commercials on TV and they put a commercial

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Speaker 5: in front of Top Gun Maverick in the theaters for it,

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Speaker 5: and uh so when they started doing that, I'm like, Okay,

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Speaker 5: I'm pretty certain this is going to come out on

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Speaker 5: July first now, But even so, I still, you know,

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Speaker 5: still a little nervous until it actually hits screens.

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Speaker 1: You got to have a lot of mega fans who

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Speaker 1: who are just pissed.

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Speaker 5: When you compare Yeah, yeah, that happens.

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Speaker 1: That's not what happened, because you.

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Speaker 5: Know, I tried to prep as much as I possibly

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Speaker 5: could through my podcast and social posts and stuff and

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Speaker 5: just kind of prep people, kind of slowly getting them

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Speaker 5: used to the idea of it being a little different.

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Speaker 5: But still regardless when it comes out, there are those

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Speaker 5: people who will take your book, watch the show. This

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Speaker 5: was different, that was different, that was different. I hate

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Speaker 5: it and that's just gonna gonna happen. Which is what's

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Speaker 5: great about the spin off is that there's no book

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Speaker 5: to compare it to Yeat, so so it's just creating.

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Speaker 5: There's characters that that I've created, but it's a backstory,

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Speaker 5: so there's no book about the backstory. So there's nothing

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Speaker 5: for someone to sit there and just compare it to

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Speaker 5: just looking for something to nitpick or someone looking for

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Speaker 5: a reason to hate it, you know, And that's just

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Speaker 5: kind of the world we live in today.

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Speaker 3: People love backstory. See yes, your position perfectly, wait a

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Speaker 3: few years and then be like little little guy growing

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Speaker 3: up on the farm.

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Speaker 5: There it is.

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Speaker 1: Did you know that Michael Man did? Was it like

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Speaker 1: after you?

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Speaker 6: It's by my bedside?

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Speaker 5: It's awesome.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, here's like this phenomenal. It's it's it's it's a

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Speaker 1: little bit more than a cult classic, but at this

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Speaker 1: point has a very like cultish. Yeah, like I make

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Speaker 1: a point to watch Heat every two three years.

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Speaker 5: Me too.

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Speaker 1: But but he's a director, he's not a writer. So

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Speaker 1: the fact that he went and wrote this, but is

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Speaker 1: it after before?

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Speaker 4: It's like a prequel sequel.

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Speaker 5: I think, Yeah, it's a great book. Have you ever

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Speaker 5: read it yet? It is amazing. Meg Gardner wrote it

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Speaker 5: with Michael Mann, and she's an incredible author, and I

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Speaker 5: had her on my podcast we talked about it and

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Speaker 5: she's just amazing. But the book it exceeded expectations and

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Speaker 5: that's hard to do. Moe Heat two. Oh yeah, and

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Speaker 5: that the cover looks like the movie poster.

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Speaker 7: Essentially, Tarantino did something similar with Once Upon a Time

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Speaker 7: in Hollywood. He wrote, he wrote his own novelization of

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Speaker 7: this movie, but he added scenes and changed dialogue and

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Speaker 7: made it a little bit different, like it's kind of fun.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, novelizations used to be a big, big thing in

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Speaker 5: the eighties into the nineties. So you read a book

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Speaker 5: based on a screenplay, but it kind of fell out

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Speaker 5: out of favor here.

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Speaker 1: It seems aspect for sure.

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Speaker 5: Man. Yeah, there's so. David Morrell wrote a novelization based

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Speaker 5: on the screenplay for Rambo First Blood Part two and

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Speaker 5: for Rambo three, and they're fantastic, They're really good. And

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Speaker 5: they at least Rambo First Blood Part two made the

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Speaker 5: New York Times list for quite a few weeks when

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Speaker 5: it came out in conjunction with the movie in eighteen

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Speaker 5: eighty five. And yeah, David Morrel is just something incredible talent,

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Speaker 5: amazing guy. I'm proud to call him a friend now,

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Speaker 5: just honor to know him. But yeah, so we did

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Speaker 5: those novelizations and I'm collecting them. Actually, that's why I'm

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Speaker 5: so up on the novelization. So I'm collecting the old

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Speaker 5: ones from the eighties that I've that I had back

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Speaker 5: then that I've kind of misplaced over the years. So

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Speaker 5: I'm collecting all those novelizations and some that I didn't

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Speaker 5: know existed.

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Speaker 3: That's cool. Yeah, So my buddies and I still on

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Speaker 3: occasion say I just wanted a cup of coffee from

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Speaker 3: Rambow first.

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Speaker 5: He was just looking for something, to just look for something.

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Speaker 7: That's what it is.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I put I put a little nod to uh

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Speaker 5: will teasel in this upcoming novel and only the Dead.

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Speaker 5: So for for fans such as yourself, you'll be reading

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Speaker 5: through it and be like, so I try to throw

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Speaker 5: a few things in there. This one I through, Like

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Speaker 5: fans of Magnum will recognize in all my books, I

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Speaker 5: throw a little something in there. They're pretty subtle. So

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Speaker 5: I get those in there. This one, I have some

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Speaker 5: Magnum stuff in there. It's all very subtle. Bond stuff

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Speaker 5: in there, lethal weapon in there, and First Blood there. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: you have. You have to be on your toes though,

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Speaker 5: you know, it's not just it's not it's not doesn't

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Speaker 5: say the thing and then say from the movie First

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Speaker 5: Blood or anything like that. It's just it's just woven

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Speaker 5: in and to the fabric for for people that pretty

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Speaker 5: much the Preey grew up in the eighties. Excellent, Yeah,

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Speaker 5: I love it.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna in a little bit, we're gonna talk about

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Speaker 1: how your mom was a library and which I love.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it all starts with books. All started with books.

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Speaker 1: Uh, speaking of show business and books. God, man, it's

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Speaker 1: another great transition. Did you catch that I did?

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Speaker 5: That was smooth?

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Speaker 1: Speaking of show business? Or so here's here's a little show.

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Speaker 1: Here's a little show business lesson for you. When when

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Speaker 1: I sold my books a Random House, like, they buy

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Speaker 1: world rights to the book, and so they can then

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Speaker 1: sell they can then sell the audio rights to someone else.

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Speaker 1: And a long time ago, a decade ago, they weren't

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Speaker 1: doing a bunch of audio. Audio just wasn't what it

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Speaker 1: is now, so they I think. So when I sold

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Speaker 1: me Eater Ventures from the Life of an American Hunter

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Speaker 1: to Random House, they turned around and sold the audio

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Speaker 1: rights to Brilliance and had some I mean, man, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, if he's listening, probably is a feller.

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Speaker 1: They get someone to read it and it's just not

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Speaker 1: how it's it just it's wrong, it's immoral. But they

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Speaker 1: got someone to read it, but they only had the

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Speaker 1: audio rights for ten years, so we just got back

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Speaker 1: the audio rights, so I was able to go. This

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Speaker 1: happened with my Buffalo book too. A decade went by

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Speaker 1: and I was able to get back my publisher got

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Speaker 1: back the audio rights, and then I a couple of

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Speaker 1: weeks ago, went back into the studio and read ten

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Speaker 1: years later, Wow, my own damn book.

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Speaker 5: Did you learn anything?

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's what I'm gonna get to, a lot of things,

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Speaker 1: like I had a lot of like not a lot,

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Speaker 1: like opinions I had that I don't really have anymore,

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Speaker 1: or opinions I had that were accentuated that that just

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Speaker 1: have gotten more complicated. And when I did my Buffalo book,

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Speaker 1: there was there was stuff. There was like scientific understandings

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Speaker 1: about about from like genetics work, stuff about the first Americans,

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Speaker 1: stuff about when waves of animal migrations came and how

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Speaker 1: things died out and didn't just had just changed and

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Speaker 1: became like objectively different. And I fixed some of the

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Speaker 1: objectively different things. But yeah, and reading it, there's everything.

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Speaker 1: So I'm like, I don't know if I'd put it

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Speaker 1: that way now, but we're going to tack on to

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Speaker 1: the end of this episode, We're gonna tack on a

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Speaker 1: chapter of it's just gonna be like glued right on

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Speaker 1: to the end of the show. We're gonna tack on

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Speaker 1: a chapter of a book I wrote a long time

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Speaker 1: ago and just recorded the audio now. And if you

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Speaker 1: want to go find that audio book, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: can you put a link in there? Or yeah, if

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Speaker 1: you want to go find the whole audiobook and pick

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Speaker 1: it up, go find the whole audiobook and you listen

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Speaker 1: to the whole damn thing. If you don't like to read. Also,

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Speaker 1: at the end of the show, just transitions, keep coming man.

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Speaker 1: Also at the end of the show, we put so

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Speaker 1: there's a song a lot of love and hate? Is

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Speaker 1: it mostly hatred?

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Speaker 6: There's some love, there's some not knowing what the hell

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Speaker 6: it is, There's some like this is awful.

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Speaker 1: Musicians. Is a musician, Christopher Denny. I understand he has

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Speaker 1: a he likes to pull a cork.

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Speaker 6: This is about our new outro song.

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Speaker 1: I understand likes the pull of cork, and I understand

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Speaker 1: he's got it. He's had a lot of uh. He

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Speaker 1: likes to party.

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Speaker 7: Steve, I've noticed a lot of your favorite musicians have

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Speaker 7: like crippling drug or alcohol addiction.

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Speaker 1: That's very true. Yeah, I don't know why as someone

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Speaker 1: who doesn't, I don't know why. Uh yeah, likes the party.

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Speaker 1: That's a euphemism for like to you know, like to

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Speaker 1: party as a Houston vism for likes to do. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know where he's at on it right now.

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Speaker 1: Christopher Danny. One day we had a podcast episode where

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Speaker 1: we like argued about a thing way too.

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Speaker 6: Long that's probably not the the only and it was.

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Speaker 1: Like someone there was a comment like, you'd like beat

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Speaker 1: the horse to death. There's a Christopher Danny song where

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Speaker 1: in the end of the song he says, we've done

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Speaker 1: beat this horse to death. It's time to ride on.

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Speaker 1: And I wanted to glue it onto the end of

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Speaker 1: that episode but never got around to it. It's not

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Speaker 1: it's glued onto the end of every episode.

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Speaker 5: Somehow seems appropriate.

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Speaker 6: Yet we still beat dead horses into the underworld.

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Speaker 1: So if you're listening at the end of the show

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Speaker 1: and you're annoyed by Chris Danny, who my kids feel

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Speaker 1: is a woman, but it's not.

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Speaker 4: Is it just a clip or the whole song?

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Speaker 1: Oh, it's a clips. The end of his song ride

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Speaker 1: on it's about having beat a horse to death.

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Speaker 4: I wonder if that song is going to get a

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Speaker 4: bump on Spotify.

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Speaker 1: Uh, I would suggest people go listen to the whole album.

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Speaker 1: If the Roses don't kill us.

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Speaker 5: Mhm, local how do you?

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Speaker 1: How do you? Guys? I don't know about them. I

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Speaker 1: just found out about them, probably on Spotify. I don't

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Speaker 1: know how I found out about Christopher Danny. You ever

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Speaker 1: a hundred alligators?

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Speaker 5: I have?

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Speaker 1: Oh? I have?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? Where'd you hunt hey in Texas?

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Speaker 3: Okay?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it was a little a little while ago,

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Speaker 5: but uh yeah, about ten years ago now, I guess.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, it was an interesting experience. It was quite

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Speaker 5: an interesting experience.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate this. A few episodes ago, on an episode

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Speaker 1: titled Wrestling Gators, we had a crocodilian biologist on a

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Speaker 1: lot of folks rode in and I said, the bio.

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Speaker 1: You know, biologists always like very measured. They don't want

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Speaker 1: to say stuff that isn't for positive And I said, man,

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Speaker 1: our listeners are gonna have a lot of comments that

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Speaker 1: would begin with shit, right like shit. He doesn't know

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Speaker 1: what he's talking about. So I said, if you got

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Speaker 1: any if you have a lot of comments that begin

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Speaker 1: with shit send them to us, a number of them.

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Speaker 1: I'm a bit disappointed at a crock biologist didn't have

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Speaker 1: a good answer for how to easily tell the difference

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Speaker 1: between the crock and an alligator. It's really quite easy.

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Speaker 1: One will see you later, the other after a while.

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Speaker 3: But embarrassed really.

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Speaker 1: Even included many.

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Speaker 5: The alligator experience though for me, wasn't more. It was

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Speaker 5: less hunting and more fishing and execution. That hook, yeah,

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Speaker 5: that was the one on jugs with the chicking, this

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Speaker 5: sitting out in the sun for a while, you know

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Speaker 5: that sort of a So I was just kind of

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Speaker 5: just observing. I hadn't done that that before, so it's interesting.

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Speaker 3: I know a few folks on the Floorida side that

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Speaker 3: have an area where where alligators like the sun, and

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Speaker 3: they'll slip up on them with and half of them

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Speaker 3: hunt with recurves and and stick them on the beach.

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Speaker 5: No kidding, Yeah, I think I gotta be a little

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Speaker 5: more sporting.

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Speaker 3: Perhaps it feels a little more like the hunting than

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Speaker 3: the fish house.

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Speaker 4: So you know, how are they killing him fast enough

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Speaker 4: with a boat to like get the.

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Speaker 1: Probably hit him with a bang stick once they get

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Speaker 1: him in. It's like bowtfish and rig.

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Speaker 3: I know it's not a boat fishing, but they're just

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Speaker 3: whacking them in the back of the head from what

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Speaker 3: I understand. No, sounds like a mediater episode. Bro go

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Speaker 3: check it out.

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Speaker 1: Sounds like I was going to write in an email

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Speaker 1: exactly exactly.

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Speaker 4: I'd like to know more details.

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Speaker 1: Well, I really not not putting a rope onto him.

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Speaker 3: No, but I mean, you know they also they do

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Speaker 3: like the spin of death and stuff like that. I imagine. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: there's there's technique behind all of it. The people who

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Speaker 3: do it, well.

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Speaker 5: A couple of people just got munched in the last week.

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Speaker 5: Then yes they did that well guy and the guy And.

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Speaker 3: The only thing that makes golf courses intriguing to me exactly.

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Speaker 1: The senior citizen goud is. Last week a senior citizen

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Speaker 1: got his leg tore off when they showed up. The

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Speaker 1: alligator sought his foot in his mouth.

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Speaker 3: Golf course.

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Speaker 1: There's another thing that I don't want to talk about

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Speaker 1: because it involves kids and that kind of stuff I

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Speaker 1: don't like to talk about. Uh. On that episode, we

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Speaker 1: were talking about indigenous uses for alligators, and the listener

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Speaker 1: wrote in that when he was at Texas Tech University.

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Speaker 1: He worked on a project about the karen Kawa Indians

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Speaker 1: from East Texas and West Louisiana. They used gator fat

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Speaker 1: as a repellent, mosquito repellent.

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Speaker 5: Interesting.

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Speaker 1: They'd render it down and spread it over their bodies

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Speaker 1: and European explorers would comment that you could smell them

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Speaker 1: quite a ways off because of that gator fat. Here's

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Speaker 1: a crazy one they had. So for whatever reason, the

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Speaker 1: they have these gator These crocodile mummies from Egypt, okay,

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Speaker 1: which I had no idea. So you have thousands of

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Speaker 1: year old crocodile mummies and they were doing them with

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Speaker 1: CT scans in twenty ten. And here they're looking at

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Speaker 1: a thousands of year old crocodile mummy with a CT

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Speaker 1: scan and he's got a fishing hook in his gut.

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Speaker 3: Oh that's amazing. Yeah, I love that.

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Speaker 1: And there's pictures of crocodile mummies. They're crazy looking beautiful.

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Speaker 4: They didn't say what the hook was made out of.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's where the email just if that person's listening,

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Speaker 1: that's where the email really fell short.

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Speaker 4: Because it's like it makes it sound like it's like

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Speaker 4: a modern looking metal fish hook. Kind of an old

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Speaker 4: ass hook, I know, but like it says, we notice

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Speaker 4: a perfect fish hook, but I like, I don't know

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Speaker 4: what that means.

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Speaker 1: Like like he felt, I don't want to criticize him,

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Speaker 1: but since you brought it up, yeah, listener, pull it together.

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Speaker 3: He he it's a deep barbed circle hook.

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Speaker 1: He acknowledges that he didn't include he includes a picture

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Speaker 1: of their crocodile mummy. But does he acknowledges not including

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Speaker 1: a picture of the hook.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, you'd think it'd be bone, yeah, something, depending

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Speaker 3: on how old it is. But I said, iron edge.

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Speaker 1: I said this to Crind the other day. Just this

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Speaker 1: defies understanding a Texas dairy farm. Yeah, okay, it defies understanding.

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Speaker 1: Eighteen thousand dairy cows.

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Speaker 5: I'll repeat that.

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Speaker 1: Eighteen thousand dairy cows killed in an explosion at a

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Speaker 1: Texas dairy farm.

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Speaker 6: And that's about twenty percent of cattle slaughtered in this

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Speaker 6: country on any given day.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the largest like loss of cattle life since

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Speaker 3: like the Galveston hurricane or something like that. Or no,

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Speaker 3: I think it is.

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Speaker 6: Even more than that.

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Speaker 1: Eighteen thousand stinky, I don't even know what to say,

438
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:43,400
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say anything.

439
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:45,359
Speaker 6: During a hard time.

440
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:50,840
Speaker 1: I told that Doug Darren carcases. I told the Doug,

441
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,840
Speaker 1: to which Doug said, well, why would you have eighteen

442
00:21:55,880 --> 00:22:04,160
Speaker 1: thousand cows together? Anyways, Wolverine sighting four times outside of Portland,

443
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 1: Oregon for the first time in three decades. I have

444
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,199
Speaker 1: a feeling they're seeing the same wolverine.

445
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,640
Speaker 6: They think so, but then for the fourth time, they're

446
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,679
Speaker 6: not sure. I think that it is.

447
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,240
Speaker 1: Thirty years goes by, no wolverine, and then all of

448
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 1: a sudden there's four outside of Portland.

449
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 5: No.

450
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,520
Speaker 6: They I mean they think it's probably the same, the

451
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:25,639
Speaker 6: same one going around.

452
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 1: Nike and Puma to stop using kangaroo leather or if

453
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 1: that company. Remember when I was a little kid, they

454
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,320
Speaker 1: had a shoe company called Ruse.

455
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 5: Yeah.

456
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:35,440
Speaker 4: Man, they had the little pocket hocket.

457
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 1: Are they fixing the stop? I don't even Maybe they

458
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 1: never did use kangaro I.

459
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:42,200
Speaker 4: Think they're called Ruse because of the pocket, not because

460
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:42,680
Speaker 4: of leather.

461
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:44,960
Speaker 1: Oh, they're phasing it out by the end of twenty

462
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,439
Speaker 1: twenty three. I don't know. You know, I take anything

463
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 1: like this like I take anything. I don't like anything

464
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 1: like this.

465
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 3: Well, there's a massive population issue with with kangaroos, like

466
00:22:55,880 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 3: they breed like crazy, and that these are like free

467
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 3: range animals, not farmed animals that they're rounding up. So

468
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 3: it's like whoa who's going to pay for taking care

469
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 3: of the over a London.

470
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,199
Speaker 1: So I shouldn't conclude that, And we've talked about that

471
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,879
Speaker 1: in the past, as they kill absurd numbers of kangaroos

472
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:15,439
Speaker 1: every year as agricultural control.

473
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 3: Yeahs control is and somebody else is paying to have

474
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 3: it done.

475
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 1: So Oregon, Oregon. This comes after the introduction of a

476
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 1: bill in mid January and Oregon, where Nike is headquartered,

477
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,359
Speaker 1: that would ban the sale of any part of a

478
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 1: dead kangaroo or any product containing a part of a

479
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 1: dead kangaroo. The punishment would include up to a year

480
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 1: in prison, a six and fifty dollars fine, or both.

481
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: There's also a bipartisan bill that was introduced in the

482
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 1: House of Representatives, the Kangaroo Protection Act.

483
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:54,680
Speaker 4: My god, Yeah, it seems like.

484
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 5: They got other things they could be focusing on here.

485
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,120
Speaker 3: No, they have everything else apped up. Everything else is perfect,

486
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 3: so now they get to focus on the nitpicky stuff.

487
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 1: Yes, the global commercial kangaroo product industry was worth roughly

488
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,159
Speaker 1: two hundred million dollars annually to Australia. The US was

489
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 1: its second largest global market at eighty.

490
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 6: Million twenty twenty one figures more or less. But was

491
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 6: kind of staggering is that the government estimated the Australian

492
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 6: government estimated that there were forty two point seven million

493
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 6: kangaroos for twenty six million Australians.

494
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 3: And you get a kangaroo, and you get a kangaroo. Yeah,

495
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 3: here's learning so much.

496
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 5: This is great. I'm learning so much.

497
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 1: Here's who all has ditched k leather Versace's how you

498
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: pronounce that? For sach, Diane von Furstenberg not sound like

499
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 1: a thing that I would buy a Diane von Furstenburg.

500
00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 1: That sounds like a person.

501
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 4: Sounds like a Nazi Allien.

502
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 1: It sounds like someone who It sounds like someone who

503
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 1: inherited a lot of money.

504
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 3: If your name.

505
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 1: Is von Furstenberg, you probably just get money.

506
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 5: I thought it was.

507
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 1: Like like no, no, no, no, no, hold hear me out.

508
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 1: My last name is von Furstenberg.

509
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 3: You know the maybe cord manufacturer.

510
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: Uh, Victoria Beckham, Salvator Farragamo and Paul Smith that just

511
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 1: seems like your you're h vat guy Paul Smith, all

512
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:36,959
Speaker 1: have gone unlike Salvator Farra Gamo and Diane von Fursusberg.

513
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: Even Paul Smith has gone k free, k leather free.

514
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 4: I wonder if how many of those people are associated

515
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:48,640
Speaker 4: with Pete as well.

516
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 5: I'm a sleep better tonight knowing all.

517
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: This, this is the last thing. This is the last

518
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: thing Jack, I know.

519
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 5: Takeing notes.

520
00:25:57,880 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 1: This is hot off, this is hot off the press

521
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: because I just okay, So I was just in Wisconsin.

522
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: I think from my fourth annual spring for my fourth

523
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 1: annual the fourth annual time I've taken my kids two

524
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 1: Wisconsin hunt turkeys, but the third annual youth turkey season,

525
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 1: in which my older boy, who already thinks he's invincible,

526
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,719
Speaker 1: I catch like a turk. I see a strutter coming

527
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: and it's like he's not gonna get closer. And I

528
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: see a strutter coming, and I just compute my head

529
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 1: that it's pretty far away. But we have like a

530
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 1: you know, we got a good turkey choke iron sights

531
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:44,399
Speaker 1: spend a lot of time patterning the gun. Uh, and

532
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 1: I already know it's like a stretch.

533
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 5: And I'm like shot him, shoot, shoot him.

534
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 1: So by the time he gets around to getting everything

535
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 1: lined up and shoots and the turkey just goes down.

536
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 1: But I stand up and that turkey is way out there.

537
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: I pasted off. That turkey was seventy yards way what

538
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: oh wow. So I would have never if I'd known that.

539
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: I stood up and this turkey is like a spec

540
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: He got lucky. So now he's like, I'm gonna start

541
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 1: taking all the He's got the shell and he wants

542
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 1: to put the beard in the shell. He's like, I'm

543
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: going to write the distance on the shell.

544
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 5: And I'm.

545
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: Nice. Anyhow, spring Turkey Wisconsin two days long, and you

546
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: can get boned by the weather, like two days. You

547
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,120
Speaker 1: can have two days of bad weather. So as I'm there,

548
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,879
Speaker 1: I realized that there's this thing. I asked Dirk, and

549
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,360
Speaker 1: do it. Pat Dirkin to explain this a little bit. Okay,

550
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 1: ready for this, I am ready. Wisconsin had Okay, Wisconsin

551
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,199
Speaker 1: has a peculiar way. Okay, here here's how to get

552
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 1: into this. If you listen, you remember we were talking

553
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: about how how it was put to sort of like

554
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 1: a public vote of sorts to determine whether you'd be

555
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: able to start spearing nor the in Wisconsin. I was

556
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: surprised that you can't spare northerns in Wisconsin, but you

557
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 1: cannot spear northerns in Wisconsin, the thinking being I guess

558
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 1: that people will accidentally spear muskies. Pat Diurkin points out,

559
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,360
Speaker 1: how can you be trusted to hit ducks flying through

560
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: the air and know what they are in the rain

561
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 1: and sleep. You're trusted to identify flying ducks, but you

562
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: can't be trusted to look down a hole in the

563
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 1: ice and identify a Northern and a muskie, which is

564
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 1: a great point. I think that you could trust people

565
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: to do this, and I was surprised by how Wisconsin

566
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: sets these things. And there's a thing called I don't

567
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: want to criticize it before I even explain it, but

568
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: there's a thing called Aldo Leopold's Worst Idea. Some people

569
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: know it as but there's a thing called the Wisconsin

570
00:28:54,040 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 1: Conservation Congress. It consists of five elected men members from

571
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 1: each county, so there are seventy two members in all

572
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: of Doug duran is one of these from Richland County.

573
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: He is one of Richland Counties, our very own Doug

574
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 1: Durren is one of Richland County's citizen representatives. Everyone listening

575
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: could learn a lesson from Doug. Many lessons from Doug Durren.

576
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 1: What you shouldn't pick up from Doug is the idea

577
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 1: that it makes sense to drive around listening to Grateful

578
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: Dead concerts on satellite radio. That is a bad idea

579
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: of Dougs. Most everything else that Doug says is good. Doug,

580
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: instead of sitting around bitching and moaning about the fishing

581
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 1: game laws in the DNR, Doug gets in there and

582
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: gets in there always. If there's like a public comment period,

583
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: he makes a public comment. He's on a citizens advisory panel.

584
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: He's on the deer Citizens Advisory Panel. If he's mad,

585
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: he be mad. He's got a right to be mad

586
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: because he got in there and got involved.

587
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 3: And he's constantly harassed by people who do nothing but

588
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 3: bitch and don't do any of these things.

589
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: Yep.

590
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 4: But the idea behind this board is they're tackling issues

591
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 4: and then they take what they think to the Game Commission,

592
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 4: who should then implement these suggestions.

593
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: Yep.

594
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 5: So which they may or may not do.

595
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's such a peculiar way to handle things. I'm

596
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna dig in a little bit. Dirk can

597
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 1: kind of explain it. The Wisconsin already said that. So

598
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: it's got five elected members from each county, So seventy

599
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: two and all is that possible? Could something times five

600
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: be seventy two? Someone's lying or someone died. The WCC

601
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: holds a joint hearing each April with the Department of

602
00:30:55,280 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: Natural Resources to propose changes improvements to hunting, fishing, and

603
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: trapping rules, and other conservation matters, air, water and other

604
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: environmental issues. This year's ballot, so the Congress puts together questions.

605
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: The questions then go to a public vote so they

606
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: can sort of ascertain how the public feels about certain

607
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: fishing game issues. This year's ballot had seventy six questions,

608
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: thirty eight fish and wildlife rule changes, and thirty eight

609
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: WCC advisory questions. To become a state rule, a citizen's

610
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: proposal must go through a five step process, so on,

611
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: on and on. I'm going to get to the main

612
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: part of this. So it's interesting because you can take

613
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: these little you can take these ideas and put them

614
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: like very nuanced fishing game ideas and put them to

615
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 1: a public opinion and It's interesting because you can start

616
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: getting idea of what the public thinks about stuff. Since

617
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: we talked about we talked about the spearfishing thing in Wisconsin.

618
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: Should you be able to spear northern through the ice?

619
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: Here's the here's the results. Yes. Three and forty three

620
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 1: wisconsinights said you should. No. Three thousand, three hundred and

621
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 1: fifty five said no, So it got beat by a

622
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: narrow margin and no opinion. Three thousand, five hundred and

623
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: two had no opinion. So they had ten thousand wisconsinights

624
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: weighed in on their opinion about this, and so I

625
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 1: think this has a low likelihood of advancing. Now here's

626
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: an interesting way to measure public sentiment. There's a two

627
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: day youth dear season. They put that to a vote.

628
00:32:58,240 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: Should we expand it to four days?

629
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 5: Youth deer?

630
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: Should we expand youth e to four Doug was Doug

631
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: was imagining the people down there who are opposed. If

632
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: the kids are gonna hunt, I'm gonna hunt, And that

633
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: is true. Should youth deer season be four days instead

634
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 1: of two Yes, three thousand, four hundred and ninety two

635
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: forty four percent No, three thousand, six hundred and forty

636
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: nine or forty six percent no opinion, eight hundred and

637
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 1: twenty five. A lot more people had an opinion, but

638
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: it got shot down. Now this is the last one

639
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: we're gonna touch on, because here's how nuanced it is.

640
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: How about youth turkey season? Should we move that from

641
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: two days to four? Yes? Four? Eight hundred and seventy two,

642
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: now eight hundred and fifty five. So there's some bit

643
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: where you're like, ah, turkeys, sure, dear, uh.

644
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 5: Huh, these kids are gonna get them all.

645
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 1: This is this so just a little glimpse into the

646
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: psychology of of and and and you'll like, here's the thing.

647
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: When it comes to wildlife management, people are always in

648
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: myself included Rise ridiculing ballot box biology, right like, leave

649
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: it to the professionals. Leave it to the professionals. And

650
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 1: it shouldn't go to votes, right like reintroducing wolves in Colorado.

651
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 1: You shouldn't put that to a vote. Leave it to

652
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 1: the professionals. But here, I don't know, there's like an

653
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: elegance to it. But I but I think it should

654
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 1: be taken as a It's part of a process, it's

655
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: part of a step. It's not the end all be

656
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 1: all It's not like they just vote in everything. But

657
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 1: when you go to set the law, uh, it gives

658
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,359
Speaker 1: you who as a law makes through the process, it's

659
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 1: like an interesting to get a sense of public opinion.

660
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And like when we talk about making scientific management,

661
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 3: the assumption is is like, well, that scientific management is

662
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 3: going to be on behalf of the hunting community, right,

663
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 3: But often that scientific management takes into account the hunting perspective,

664
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 3: but also like the rangeland ecology perspective of all these

665
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 3: ranchers out there with animals on state ground and on

666
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 3: public ground that borders state, WMAs, et cetera, and how

667
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 3: they are going to be affected by those deer elk

668
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 3: populations as well. So, and everybody's a voter.

669
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 4: Well, part of making the rules is keeping you know,

670
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 4: people happy and interested and out in the field.

671
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 3: Too, providing opportunity. What is opportunity? Quality? Opportunity is a huge,

672
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 3: huge phrase.

673
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: My view on that youth Turkey deal, which I'm following

674
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 1: closely and I have really leaned on Doug to push

675
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 1: on that hard, is that I think it comes down

676
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,879
Speaker 1: to who's got kids. I was just kidding, I got kids.

677
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:15,879
Speaker 1: So I'm a super big supporter if I didn't have kids,

678
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: I'd be like, screw those kids. And then but as

679
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: soon as it'll get enacted as twenty twenty five, so

680
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: we're still gonna be well, we're still gonna be weather

681
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: vulnerable next year. So your mom was a librarian, yeahs

682
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 1: transitions speak is a library.

683
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 5: Yeah. Before we get to that, though, did you see

684
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 5: that the wolves in northern California? Have you seen that yet?

685
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 3: I know about them, Yeah, just migrating through Do they

686
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 3: have an established breeding I don't know, shafts.

687
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, exactly, Yeah, trail cams catching them.

688
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 3: There's plenty of good interesting I interviewed a very very

689
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 3: nice lady who runs of a big operation. I apologize

690
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 3: if you're listening. I can't remember your name, but they

691
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 3: do a lot of like the noxious weed mitigation with

692
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 3: sheep and goats, and they had one of the wolves

693
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 3: that came through a few years ago knocked out some

694
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 3: of their some of theirstation crew a few years.

695
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 5: Ago in California. Yeah, oh wow.

696
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, they've been like for a while. Yeah, probably, I

697
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: don't know, probably originating from that Frank church group.

698
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, it got into Oregon, California. Yeah, probably.

699
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard to I don't picture California firing up

700
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: a wolf season anytime soon. Maybe people surprise you that,

701
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 1: oh man, this is gone too far.

702
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 5: And in your book if you can your book though,

703
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 5: by the way, when you read it, have you read

704
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 5: the other ones? Or was this the first time you've

705
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 5: read the full I've read three, you've read three, but one.

706
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:05,800
Speaker 1: You're good at it.

707
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 5: You seem like you'd be good at it, just from

708
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 5: reading right here, because I only read the new forward

709
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 5: to a new edition of the Terminal List. So I

710
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 5: wrote about So it's a new one about how the

711
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,359
Speaker 5: show came to be and how I got to dance one.

712
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 5: So it's the one with Chris Pratt on the cover,

713
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 5: and we put in some pictures from the from the

714
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 5: show in there and stuff like that to make a

715
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 5: special limited edition thing. And instead of Ray Porter, who's

716
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 5: my narrator, reading that, we decided I do it. So

717
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 5: I ran the cord into the closet and the house

718
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 5: and I put a bunch of clothes on hangers everywhere

719
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 5: until it sounded okay. So had the direction you know

720
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 5: what I'm talking about? Yeah, it looked very similar to this.

721
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:41,800
Speaker 3: That's the direction.

722
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:46,760
Speaker 1: Exactly what it was Jack's close.

723
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 4: Yeah exactly, you use like a trained voice actor for yours.

724
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, so Ray Porter, he's a he's an amazing guy,

725
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 5: Shakespeare trained actor who does it because you're because it's

726
00:38:58,040 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 5: like it's like accidents.

727
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: Really, it's like a thriller too though, so it's got

728
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,720
Speaker 1: to have like it's got to be a delivery exactly.

729
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 4: He had felt that a like a flunky soap opera actor.

730
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 5: Had read one of his books, not that I felt

731
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 5: I know, that's fantastic, but it was hard. I mean,

732
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 5: it was only like five pages, maybe six, and I

733
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 5: hadn't written it years ago. I had written it days ago,

734
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 5: and I'm reading it and it was difficult. So I

735
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 5: now I have. I had an appreciation for Ray and

736
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 5: all those guys who do this narration, but now I

737
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 5: even appreciate it even more. And they have to do

738
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 5: those accents too. I'm just reading my own voice, my

739
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 5: own words, just setting up what's coming and how the

740
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 5: show came to be and everything. And that was difficult

741
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 5: enough for whatever reason. But now now so now when

742
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 5: I'm writing, I think about, oh, I should probably put

743
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 5: the accent, the Russian accent up front instead of mentioning

744
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,320
Speaker 5: it like halfway down the page. So he has to

745
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 5: now go back and like part Russian accent in with

746
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 5: a hint of this or that, so you know, it's uh, yeah,

747
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 5: the German from with the Berlin accent or whatever that

748
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 5: sort of thing. So he has to go figure with

749
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,240
Speaker 5: what that is. Better to let him know upfront, But anyway,

750
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 5: it was difficult. So anyway, I was just curious if

751
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 5: you had written read all your books out loud like that.

752
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I used to. Yeah, I used to not

753
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 1: be allowed to, but now you know, now I'm allowed to. Hey,

754
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 1: I like, I don't like doing it, but love, I mean,

755
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 1: I don't you get a sore of throat?

756
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's long, he said about he said it was

757
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,800
Speaker 5: about double. So if it's a fourteen hour read fourteen

758
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 5: hour book, it's about double that what it took him

759
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,399
Speaker 5: to actually read it and actually do it, so about

760
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:30,879
Speaker 5: thirty hour.

761
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: Deal.

762
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 6: Does he read it at the pace that we hear it?

763
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 6: Because I heard the prologue of your new book, But

764
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 6: does he read at the pace that we hear it?

765
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 6: Or is there any kind of good messing with you know,

766
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 6: just just think.

767
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 5: It's the cadence that he in some people's speed books

768
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 5: up just to get through them faster, which is kind

769
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 5: of don't know, kind of strange if you're listening to

770
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 5: accents and all that sort of thing, and the dramatic

771
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 5: pauses and all that. But I think he read he

772
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 5: likes to read it. He just goes, he said, he

773
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 5: just like skims it a tiny bit, just kind of

774
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 5: get the feel, and then he reads it for the

775
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,359
Speaker 5: first time recording, so that you're hearing it the way

776
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 5: you would read it for the first time. So yeah,

777
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 5: it's not practiced yet. I think other different narrators do

778
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 5: different things, but that's the way. The way he does

779
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 5: it probably saves a little bit of time as well,

780
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 5: rather than reading a whole thing and then going back.

781
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 5: But but yeah, I try to give him the acronyms,

782
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 5: you know, so it's not you see n O d's capitalized,

783
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 5: you say n O ds, but it's really nods, you know,

784
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 5: things like that instead a J S O C would

785
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 5: be jaysack like that. That's sort of a sort of

786
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 5: a thing. So yeah, there's always those those types of

787
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 5: things come up as well. But it's tough. I mean,

788
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,280
Speaker 5: that's that's serious business. Being a narrator reading all these books.

789
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 5: That's a lot of hours in a room by yourself

790
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 5: just for reading. I don't know. But more, I mean,

791
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 5: he does a great job, so it's good, more than

792
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 5: happy that to have him doing it rather than me.

793
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: I like, how you don't disparage You don't like to

794
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: disparage the people you work with.

795
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 5: I haven't had the cause. Really, Yeah, I pick up

796
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:03,399
Speaker 5: on that man in a different round.

797
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,799
Speaker 1: I'll be like, man, Phil just does a phenomenal job.

798
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 5: Hayden calls just the right amount, the perfect amount.

799
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 1: Hey, I want to go back farther than I do.

800
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 1: Want to get to your mom being a library, but

801
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 1: I want to go back farther than that. Uh. We

802
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 1: took a little walk last night, we did. You're uh

803
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: your grandfather was killed off Okinawan World War two.

804
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, nineteen forty five. Never met his kid, never

805
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,799
Speaker 5: met I never met my dad. So we grew up.

806
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 5: He grew up with the same things that I grew

807
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 5: up with from my grandfather, which were those photos of

808
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 5: him with his plane. He threw the course air which

809
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:41,839
Speaker 5: is a cooling that had the gold wings that you'd

810
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 5: fold up like that put on aircraft carriers, and there

811
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 5: was a show in the late seventies and I caught

812
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 5: it in syndication with my dad in the early eighties

813
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 5: called Black Sheep Squadron based off Happy Point and had

814
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:52,759
Speaker 5: Robert Conrad playing Pappy Point. And I think I had

815
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 5: a lot of my leadership traits from that show. He

816
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 5: was just a drinker and a fighter and it was awesome.

817
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 5: I loved it. I thought, that's you. But yeah, it

818
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 5: was perfect. Yeah, exactly. That's how you settle things. You

819
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 5: settle it with your fists outside and you go out

820
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 5: and then shoot down a bunch of Japanese zeros and

821
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 5: have a few beers. And I was like, that's awesome,

822
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 5: That's what I'm gonna do. But I knew it was

823
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 5: just kind of in my blood to join the military,

824
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,760
Speaker 5: follow his footsteps into the military. I had those those photos.

825
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 5: I had his his marine aviator wings. I had the

826
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,399
Speaker 5: silk maps they used to give aviators back then, because

827
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 5: if you hit the water with a paper map, it

828
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 5: would disintegrate in the water. But milk maps, Yeah, it's beautiful.

829
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 5: I mean they're beautiful maps. Have them a frame now.

830
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 5: But so I had all those those things, his medals,

831
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 5: and that's the only touch point that and this show

832
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,360
Speaker 5: Black Sheep Squadron with only touch points because you couldn't

833
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:43,879
Speaker 5: get online back then, and go to the Facebook group

834
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 5: from that squadron and try to meet your dad all

835
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 5: these years later, like he had no touch points with

836
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 5: anybody from his dad's squadron, nothing like that.

837
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 1: So what was it that you took What was it

838
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 1: that you took your family to to show them your

839
00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 1: grandfather's name.

840
00:43:57,880 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, so it's the the Mia wall because they never

841
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 5: found found his body.

842
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: But that's what you mentioned. I didn't know that makes sense.

843
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:07,320
Speaker 5: So there's a punch Bowl National Cemetery of the Pacific

844
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 5: is overlooks punch Bowl Crater overlooks Honolulu.

845
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 1: Dad.

846
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 5: It's so powerful, so powerful. Going to national cemeteries, no

847
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 5: matter which one, is very important for for kids especially

848
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 5: and this was middle school, high school years, just to

849
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 5: appreciate and kind of see have a kind of a

850
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,879
Speaker 5: have a viscial real reaction to seeing those headstones, seeing

851
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,320
Speaker 5: those those stones in the ground, seeing those names on

852
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 5: the wall. So you realize what was sacrificed so that

853
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 5: we could have these freedoms and options and opportunities that

854
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 5: we have. So maybe before we make a snap judgment

855
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 5: on something based off somebody's tweet, Maybe take a breath,

856
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 5: research it a little more and then make that decision.

857
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 5: So it's I think it's important to take take kids there.

858
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 5: So that's what we did with our youngest who's twelve,

859
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 5: brought him up there this past week and showed him

860
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 5: his grandfather's name up there on that is that wall.

861
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,439
Speaker 1: It's it's massive numbers.

862
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 5: Massive number and it's all they works their way up

863
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,399
Speaker 5: this slope of the crater and it's just wall after

864
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 5: wall after wall after wall that leads to the top,

865
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 5: and at the top there's a statue and a chapel,

866
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 5: and then there's the history of World War two on

867
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 5: these beautiful murals that spell it all out, all the

868
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 5: battles in order up there, so you can walk through

869
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 5: the history of World War two in the Pacific. And

870
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 5: then you can turn around and look out and just

871
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 5: see all those walls with all those names of the

872
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 5: bodies that were never recovered, and then you see all

873
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 5: the grass where they have all the people that were

874
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 5: buried for the bodies that were recovered. So it's pretty

875
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 5: powerful place.

876
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,839
Speaker 1: So if you're like with your grandfather, they don't then

877
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 1: he's on the m I A. But there's no tombston't

878
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: there's no tombstone marker.

879
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 5: Right right when they do recover the bodies, because we're

880
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 5: actively still out there looking for bodies from multiple past conflicts.

881
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 5: So when they do find the remains, then they make

882
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 5: up put a mark and they have this star that

883
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 5: goes next to the name that lets you know that, hey,

884
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 5: this body has now been recovered. And there's a lot

885
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 5: more now than there were when I was a kid

886
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,399
Speaker 5: up there, you can definitely tell. But yeah, something that's

887
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 5: something I alway wanted to do in the military that

888
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:03,439
Speaker 5: I ever got to do because we got so busy

889
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 5: after after nine to eleven was be part of that

890
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:10,240
Speaker 5: m recovery group that would go out you got to Vietnam.

891
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 5: You'd really go out to a bunch of different places

892
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 5: and look for the remains of these in Vietnam, a

893
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 5: lot of pilots but people that were not recovered. So

894
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:19,720
Speaker 5: it's a it's a large operation. You should be headquartered

895
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 5: in Hawaii. I'm not sure where it's headquartered now.

896
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 1: So now we'll get to your mom.

897
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 5: Yes, librarians did where was she a library? So multiple

898
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 5: different different libraries growing up. But so when I wanted

899
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 5: to let her know, I wanted to be a seal.

900
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 5: So I found out what seals were from my dad

901
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,759
Speaker 5: watching these war movies. So he called them frogmen, so

902
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 5: he did because that was because it was the name

903
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 5: of the movie. So we'd be watching football, So football

904
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 5: was big on Sundays in our household. But I was

905
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 5: really interested in football because even back then, at age five,

906
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:51,800
Speaker 5: six seven, I wanted anyone I want to join the military.

907
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 5: So there was those few channels back then there's CBS, NBC, ABC,

908
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 5: and then there's the outlier, and that outlier channel always

909
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:01,799
Speaker 5: had a war movie on on Sundays. So we'd been

910
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 5: watching football, and when the commercial came on, my dad

911
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:05,800
Speaker 5: look at his watch and say go And I was

912
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 5: the remote control back in those days, so I'd run

913
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 5: up and I'd switch it to that outlier channel, that

914
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 5: fourth channel, and there was always a war movie on,

915
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 5: so I'd watched that. He'd be looking at his watch

916
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 5: for your two or two and a half minutes and

917
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:19,760
Speaker 5: then say turn it back and turn Then we continue

918
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:21,320
Speaker 5: watching football and I just kind of wait till the

919
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 5: next commercial, wonder what's happened in exactly, So I had

920
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 5: a lot of one of the guys, isn't there just

921
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 5: gone gone?

922
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,839
Speaker 1: Yep? And uh connect, Yeah.

923
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 5: One of those was the Frogmen, and there was show

924
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 5: these guys climbing up over the beach and putting explosives

925
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 5: on obstacles and blowing them up. And I asked my dad, Hey,

926
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 5: who are these guys? And he said those were Frogmen

927
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 5: the name of the movie. And I sort of pestering

928
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 5: him all about what frog who frogmen were and then

929
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 5: he's like, change it back, change it back. So back

930
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 5: to football. And someone asked my mom, uh, and she said, well,

931
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 5: let's go for a trip, so down to the library.

932
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 5: And she took every opportunity to we had when we

933
00:47:57,680 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 5: had questions, to take us down to that library and

934
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 5: show out of research and all that sort of things.

935
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 5: So this is early eighties, and you could essentially get

936
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 5: through everything written about seals in about an hour, maybe

937
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 5: hour and a half if you're a slow reader. There

938
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:11,439
Speaker 5: just wasn't that much. And then there's more written about

939
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,439
Speaker 5: army special forces back then, typically about Vietnam, but you'd

940
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:16,399
Speaker 5: still you can get through that in a couple hours too,

941
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,320
Speaker 5: So you could potentially find the end of the Internet

942
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 5: in the library back then as a kid. But then

943
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:25,239
Speaker 5: I started reading those same types of books that my

944
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 5: parents were reading. So it's let's say fifth grade's one

945
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:30,919
Speaker 5: Hunt for a October comes out, and by sixth grade,

946
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 5: for sure, when I'm eleven, that's when I start for

947
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 5: sure reading all the same kind of thrillers that I

948
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 5: still read today. So I'm reading books by David Morrell,

949
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 5: Nelson to mill A, J. Quinnell, J. C. Pollock, Markold

950
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 5: and Louis Lamore, Stephen Hunter and back then, all these

951
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 5: guys and if you remember movies and television in the

952
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 5: eighties that protagonists usually had a background in Vietnam, and

953
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:51,800
Speaker 5: it was either a Navy seal or Army Special Forces

954
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 5: or Marine sniper or CIA PEL paramilitary. And now he's

955
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 5: in the eighties and he's like a private investigator or

956
00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 5: he's a.

957
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: Cop or whatever follows at those No Country for Old Men,

958
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: they what is the guy? All those guys so in

959
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 1: No Count for Old Men. Josh Brolin's character lou Ellen,

960
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,839
Speaker 1: lou Ellen, he did you know, you don't know, you're

961
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: not quite sure what, but did something heavy duty in Vietnam.

962
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 1: The assassin did something you gather really heavy in Vietnam

963
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 1: and was you know, like a you gather some kind

964
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 1: of ultimate badass from Vietnam. And because it was its

965
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 1: about eight the eighties, and so it is these guys.

966
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 5: That were the timeline worked kind of a skill set

967
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 5: that made sense, kind of like.

968
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 1: Crazy warriors that were wandering the drug lands of the

969
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: Texas Mexico boarder.

970
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:47,959
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it makes sense, it makes sense.

971
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 1: And I never really thought about that formula.

972
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 5: But when you mentioned that, oh, yeah, they were all

973
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 5: they all had backgrounds like that, and so that's the

974
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 5: background I went in real life. One day, so I figure, hey,

975
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 5: if I'm reading about this uh seal in a book

976
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 5: by David Morrell, I'm reading about this Air Force pair

977
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:06,399
Speaker 5: of rescue guy in the book by so and so, well,

978
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 5: they must have done their research somehow, they must have

979
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:12,880
Speaker 5: connections in there somehow. So as a kid to age ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen,

980
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 5: I'm just having such a good time in the pages

981
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 5: of these novels. I know that after my time in

982
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:19,359
Speaker 5: the military, that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna write these.

983
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 1: Get to books. Okay, let's say, here's here's what I

984
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 1: don't get it though. If someone had said you will

985
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 1: not like like God says, you cannot be a writer ever,

986
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 1: would you have been not going in the military.

987
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 5: I would have probably said why.

988
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 1: He said somebody did it? He said because somebody?

989
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 5: Because because I said so, yeah.

990
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 1: So whatever, Like, would you have not done it? Research stint?

991
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:52,800
Speaker 1: And that's a high risk research stint.

992
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:54,360
Speaker 5: I didn't realize how high risk it.

993
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: A lot of writers like I spent six months walking,

994
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:02,479
Speaker 1: you know, you're like, I spent ten years in urban combat. Yeah,

995
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:04,439
Speaker 1: so it could be a writer. Yeah, so it would

996
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 1: be like that doesn't sound that sounded very practical.

997
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 5: I thought of them. I thought of the seal side,

998
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 5: and the writing side is totally distinctly different. I didn't

999
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 5: think of one leading to the other. I just knew that, Hey,

1000
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:18,320
Speaker 5: if I want to do these two things with my

1001
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 5: life because of time and aging, you have to do

1002
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 5: the military side first. So yeah, there's no really like,

1003
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:27,360
Speaker 5: what am I going to do first? It's like, no,

1004
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 5: you're gonna you have to do this first. But I

1005
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 5: was reading all those guys and then I found Joseph

1006
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:33,919
Speaker 5: Campbell through here with a thousand faces and a series

1007
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 5: of interviews he did with Bill Moyer's on PBS in

1008
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 5: nineteen eighty eight called The Power of Myth, and then

1009
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:39,759
Speaker 5: they had some books that came out based on that

1010
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 5: called the Power of Myth as well, and I saw

1011
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 5: that with my mom. She introduced me to that and

1012
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 5: he talked about how his hero's journey was in inspiration

1013
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 5: for George Lucas and Star Wars, and of course, as

1014
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 5: a kid of the eighties, you know, that really stood

1015
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 5: out to me. So I started applying that hero's journey

1016
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 5: in Joseph Campbell's Thoughts and Vision and Philosophy to books

1017
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:01,319
Speaker 5: I would read, to movies i'd the TV shows i'd see,

1018
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 5: and even though I didn't think of it specifically in

1019
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 5: these terms, I just thought, oh, that movie didn't work

1020
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 5: because of that, that that hero missed a part of

1021
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 5: that journey. It didn't really take you what is going

1022
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:16,839
Speaker 5: in for for James Reese, what is going into the cave?

1023
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,879
Speaker 5: So there's distinct language that I'll use in the book,

1024
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:24,759
Speaker 5: even if it's just a cabin or it's something and

1025
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 5: I'll put cavern like something, so I'll describe something. I'll

1026
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 5: throw that in there, cave of like cavern like something

1027
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,360
Speaker 5: like that dark. So I'll describe a cave even I

1028
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 5: don't use those words because I'm thinking about that journey

1029
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 5: and he's getting some sort of information in there.

1030
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 1: Also, you go into a cave repeatedly, and there's there'll

1031
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:44,360
Speaker 1: be one. I probably do.

1032
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 5: But there's one distinct part of each book that I

1033
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 5: think of as I'm writing. That is his time to

1034
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 5: change a little bit or learn something a little bit,

1035
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 5: emerge a little different so that he can solve this problem,

1036
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 5: usually very aggressively and violently in my novels.

1037
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 1: But well, yeah, with like so you think a bunch

1038
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 1: of where Luke Skywalker when he has to go to

1039
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 1: that little Yeah, he goes that whole swampy island and

1040
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:08,920
Speaker 1: hangs out with Yoda.

1041
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's it.

1042
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 1: It comes back, leaves early, but comes out ready to

1043
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 1: That's right exactly, that's right.

1044
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 5: First it goes into the cave. There's rats all over them.

1045
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 5: You know, he's throwing those things off there the cave there.

1046
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 5: So so you'll notice it if you if you read

1047
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:26,360
Speaker 5: here with a thousand faces and then start watching films

1048
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 5: that take you on a journey through a protagonist's size,

1049
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:32,280
Speaker 5: then then you start noticing that some of these elements

1050
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 5: are are in some of probably your favorite films. It

1051
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 5: resonates for a reason, like there's a mentor along the way.

1052
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 5: We have Obi wan Kenobe, we have we have Yoda.

1053
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:42,720
Speaker 5: We have someone that helps train, that's older and wiser,

1054
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 5: that passes along some training or some information along the

1055
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 5: way as well. So there's that there's that person in

1056
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 5: in books and movies and television, and it's just it's

1057
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 5: a very natural way to tell a story because our

1058
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 5: first stories around the campfire, and they're about the hunt,

1059
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:58,920
Speaker 5: and they're about warfare, because you're passing down lessons from

1060
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:01,719
Speaker 5: both the hunt and combat to that next generation through

1061
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:02,800
Speaker 5: a story that you can remember.

1062
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:06,959
Speaker 3: And why doesn't that get boring? It is used over

1063
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 3: and over and over again, like.

1064
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 1: That's in your they would say. It's it's like already,

1065
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:15,319
Speaker 1: it's already wired into your brain.

1066
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:18,839
Speaker 3: I love it every day. Every single boxing movie, every

1067
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:21,960
Speaker 3: single one. It's like, I'm not going to train that kid.

1068
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 5: Exactly.

1069
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:26,279
Speaker 3: It takes.

1070
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 5: I do, yeah, for sure. Then you get the montage

1071
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:34,360
Speaker 5: and you come out stronger and wiser and get that

1072
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:35,279
Speaker 5: ring and get it done.

1073
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 3: Not only am I going to prove it to you,

1074
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:38,239
Speaker 3: I'm going to prove it to all of them.

1075
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 1: That's right, But you know there's but there's other things

1076
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 1: that are wired into the India the human head. Like

1077
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:46,080
Speaker 1: if you look globally, if you look at world religion,

1078
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 1: the idea that a bad flood came and wiped out

1079
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 1: most everything is a recurring I mean, it's it's in

1080
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 1: like Native American mythologies from the primary like monotheistic religions.

1081
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 1: It's just like this idea that probably because you're I

1082
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 1: don't know, you're looking at stuff doesn't make that doesn't

1083
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 1: make sense to you anymore. You find like dinosaur bones whatever,

1084
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:14,799
Speaker 1: and you're like, I don't know, must have been right.

1085
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:17,359
Speaker 5: Well, all those different different cultures that had never had

1086
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:22,360
Speaker 5: any interaction with one another, China, Native American philosophies, Christianity,

1087
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 5: all these different religions and different cultures really is better

1088
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 5: way to put it, had very similar stories, very similar mythologies,

1089
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:31,080
Speaker 5: very similar heroes, journeys that they would pass on to

1090
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:34,760
Speaker 5: that next generation. So across cultures that never had any interaction,

1091
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 5: they had these very similar stories because they're passing on

1092
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:39,960
Speaker 5: some of those same things. It was about survival, and

1093
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:41,880
Speaker 5: not only was it about survival, it was about prevailing

1094
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:44,000
Speaker 5: because we're just gonna survive. That's a that's a rough

1095
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 5: way to go, but you need to prevail. That's the goal.

1096
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 1: You you like to put elements of hunting in I

1097
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 1: do is that now? Is that is that psychology too?

1098
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 1: Or is that just because you like hunting?

1099
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:59,240
Speaker 5: That's because I like hunting, and it's because other people

1100
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 5: either don't or can't do that, and so it's different.

1101
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 5: And it's also a way for me to kind of

1102
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:08,919
Speaker 5: give back to this community, the hunting community, really, because

1103
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:11,279
Speaker 5: someone's going through the airport and they see this thing

1104
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 5: they think as a spy sponage thriller on the shelf,

1105
00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:15,320
Speaker 5: and they grab it. But what they're really getting is

1106
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:18,479
Speaker 5: an education in hunting a conservation along the way, because

1107
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 5: it's woven in. There's hunting in all the stories, but

1108
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 5: in particular the second one true Believer, So it'll be

1109
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:26,279
Speaker 5: interesting to see how we deal with that in the

1110
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 5: visual adaptation of it. And then the third one really

1111
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 5: has his savage Sun and that's really about the dark

1112
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 5: side of man through the dynamic of hunter and hunted.

1113
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 5: So the inspiration for that was back in sixth grade

1114
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:40,440
Speaker 5: when I read The Most Dangerous Game by Richard Connell,

1115
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 5: and even back in sixth grade, I said, one day,

1116
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 5: I'll write the novel that pays tribute to the short story,

1117
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 5: and it was the one that I wanted to start with.

1118
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 5: When I started writing, I wrote now, six, seven, eight,

1119
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:51,799
Speaker 5: nine different ideas, different one page executive summaris, and laid

1120
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 5: them all out on the table, and Savage Son was

1121
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:55,120
Speaker 5: the one I wanted to start with because that's the

1122
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 5: theme that I wanted to explore, and that's the one

1123
00:56:57,120 --> 00:56:59,360
Speaker 5: I've been thinking about writing since the sixth grade. But

1124
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 5: I knew that the characters weren't developed enough to tell

1125
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:04,640
Speaker 5: that story yet. So I had to introduce everyone to

1126
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:07,879
Speaker 5: these characters in the first book, in the Terminal List,

1127
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:09,320
Speaker 5: and then even at the end of that one, I

1128
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:11,480
Speaker 5: was like, no, not quite ready yet. I still need

1129
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 5: to take him now on this journey of redemption, because

1130
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:17,320
Speaker 5: it would be disingenuous to the reader or to the

1131
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 5: listener to take him after these traumatic events in the

1132
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:22,760
Speaker 5: first novel and then just drop him into this second

1133
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 5: in this second one as Savage Son. He couldn't do it,

1134
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 5: and I'm surprised that Simon and Schuster actionly, my editor

1135
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 5: there didn't ask me to change anything about that second one,

1136
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:32,960
Speaker 5: because it I take him on a pretty long journey

1137
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 5: where he learns to live agangs. He thinks he's dying,

1138
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 5: and he finds this next mission, this purpose in Africa,

1139
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 5: in Mozambique, taking his skills from the battlefield and turning

1140
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 5: those into something positive against the poachers out in Africa.

1141
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 5: So he finds this new mission, and of course that's

1142
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 5: when the CIA finds him and plucks him back out

1143
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:51,480
Speaker 5: for a new mission. But that's a long part of

1144
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:54,640
Speaker 5: the story, and that's probably people that really of my novels,

1145
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 5: Savage Son is probably people's favorite, and In the Blood,

1146
00:57:57,800 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 5: which was the last one. Those are the two favorites.

1147
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:03,200
Speaker 5: But people that like True Believer love True Believer love

1148
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 5: that second one because of the hunting and because it's

1149
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 5: a slower story, a slower build up, because this guy's

1150
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:11,200
Speaker 5: damaged and he needs to find that a reason to

1151
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 5: live again, and he finds that in Africa and Mozambique.

1152
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:16,800
Speaker 5: And most people don't explore Mozambique and and hunting in

1153
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:20,000
Speaker 5: modern thrillers as well. Most people don't put boots on

1154
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 5: the ground over there doing their research, which I did,

1155
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 5: and I didn't even have my deal yet. So I

1156
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 5: finished my first novel, hadn't sent it Simon and Schuster yet,

1157
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 5: got out of the military, and knew that I was

1158
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:31,160
Speaker 5: always going to write too, because of the John Grisham story.

1159
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 5: He wrote A Time to Kill first, and he couldn't

1160
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 5: give that book away, and then he writes The Firm

1161
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:38,560
Speaker 5: and that thing takes off, and John Grisham novel every

1162
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 5: year since. But if he thought this one didn't really work,

1163
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 5: I'm just going to go back to practice of law,

1164
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:45,959
Speaker 5: like he'd probably just be retiring now for would probably

1165
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 5: be a partner to law firm and just be just

1166
00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 5: be getting out still be thinking about that book that

1167
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 5: didn't work, called The Time to Kill, which I think

1168
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 5: is his best work actually, because they republished it after

1169
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 5: The Firm came out and hit it so big they

1170
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 5: went back and republished it, and then Matthew McConaughey started

1171
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 5: in that movie. But it's fantastic if you haven't read

1172
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:03,400
Speaker 5: A Time to Kill for those listening and watching, it's amazing,

1173
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 5: amazing book. But so I was always gonna write too,

1174
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 5: So before i'd even sent it to to Simon and Schuster,

1175
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 5: before I had an agent or anything, I was on

1176
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:11,800
Speaker 5: a plane in Africa to Mo'sambique, but boots on the

1177
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:13,960
Speaker 5: ground over there had lists of questions to ask the

1178
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:16,840
Speaker 5: professional hunters and the trackers and skinners and everybody else,

1179
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 5: how do you say things? And the different languages over there?

1180
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 5: What are the different languages that they're speaking over there?

1181
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 5: Of course looking at the rocks and the dirt, how

1182
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:26,960
Speaker 5: am I going to describe that? And what's the situation

1183
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:29,120
Speaker 5: like over there with hunting and poaching in China and

1184
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 5: minerals and exploitation and all the rest of it. So yeah,

1185
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 5: I was doing that research while I was over there,

1186
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 5: before I had any sort of a deal.

1187
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 1: But so you just you're just spending money out of pocket.

1188
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:42,280
Speaker 5: Yeah oh yeah, And as I going in, you have

1189
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:45,040
Speaker 5: to write your occupation in those those forms and so

1190
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 5: it sells you know, your name and all that stuff

1191
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:50,160
Speaker 5: and has occupation. And I wrote author even though I

1192
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 5: didn't have any probably deal.

1193
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 1: Well the other option would have been probably not that helpful.

1194
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:58,640
Speaker 5: So so yeah, so I wrote that. But I got

1195
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 5: that from Stephen Pressfield for his books on creativity that

1196
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:04,040
Speaker 5: he writes the world of art turning pro authentic swing

1197
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 5: and he said, you know, you're a professional. Flip that switch,

1198
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:12,040
Speaker 5: turn pro and write, And so I wrote author before

1199
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:14,760
Speaker 5: I didn't met anyone from Simon and Schuster or had

1200
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 5: any cause I was gonna write too, and if both

1201
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:18,600
Speaker 5: of them didn't work, then I was like, well, think

1202
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 5: about some fallbacks, but I didn't really want to.

1203
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 1: I never get to the point where I felt like

1204
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:25,560
Speaker 1: I could legitimately, for occupation put down right. And I

1205
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 1: loved it. Man nice because for a lot of time

1206
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:29,280
Speaker 1: I was like, I wrote, probably shouldn't put that down.

1207
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 1: I did it well before, like a tree surgeon. Yeah,

1208
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:34,880
Speaker 1: I did it well well before.

1209
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:39,600
Speaker 5: Yeah I was if you're looking at things professionally as like, oh,

1210
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 5: professionally you make money at it. Well, yeah, I jumped

1211
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 5: the gun. But I still thought of myself at first

1212
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:47,760
Speaker 5: it was a professional soldier, a special operator, and now

1213
01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:50,200
Speaker 5: not that anymore. Now I'm an author. So I just

1214
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:53,200
Speaker 5: flipped that switch and came up became a professional author.

1215
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:57,280
Speaker 4: So before you, before you became an author, was there

1216
01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:00,320
Speaker 4: like external pressure in the military for you to be

1217
01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 4: like a lifer, stay in and.

1218
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:07,919
Speaker 5: Train people or yeah, so there is that, but once

1219
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:11,280
Speaker 5: you less so at twenty years, as you're creeping up

1220
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 5: on twenty. That's kind of like because if you stay in,

1221
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 5: a lot of people say you're working for half pay essentially,

1222
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:19,080
Speaker 5: type of a panel if that's was really true, because

1223
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:20,920
Speaker 5: you could get out and get your retirement, which is

1224
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 5: it's not really half. It's way less than half because

1225
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:25,800
Speaker 5: they don't include your special pays like your demo pay

1226
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:27,760
Speaker 5: and your jump pay and your combat pay and all

1227
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:31,120
Speaker 5: that sort of thing. So it's yeah, it's not It

1228
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:33,160
Speaker 5: doesn't really work out that way. But I understand what

1229
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:35,640
Speaker 5: people mean when they say it. But no, I was

1230
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:37,440
Speaker 5: twenty was good, it was a good run. If I

1231
01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:39,640
Speaker 5: stayed in, it was I'd done everything that I wanted

1232
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:41,840
Speaker 5: to do at that point, and if I stayed in,

1233
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 5: it would be staff job and then come back as

1234
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 5: a commanding officer at some point, which sounds really impressive

1235
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:50,560
Speaker 5: if you say your commanding officer or something, But in

1236
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:52,560
Speaker 5: today's day and age, as a commanding officer, you're really

1237
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 5: back in attach cole operation center when the guys are

1238
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:56,440
Speaker 5: out there kicking in the doors doing the job that

1239
01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:58,040
Speaker 5: you really came in to do. And it's good you

1240
01:01:58,120 --> 01:01:59,920
Speaker 5: need good people to do that. But that just wasn't

1241
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:03,040
Speaker 5: my thing. I was there for to be a tactical

1242
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 5: level leader on the battlefield, and that time was essentially done.

1243
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:08,200
Speaker 5: So it was time to flip that switch and take

1244
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:11,000
Speaker 5: care of my family. And we have three kids and

1245
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:12,920
Speaker 5: one of them had some severe special needs, so that

1246
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:15,800
Speaker 5: was like they needed me, So it was time to

1247
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 5: move on. It was very clear to me that it

1248
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:18,680
Speaker 5: was time to get out, and it was also very

1249
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:20,280
Speaker 5: clear to me what I needed to do now.

1250
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:24,919
Speaker 4: And you never had, and like then or now, any

1251
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:26,800
Speaker 4: interest in nonfiction.

1252
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:30,480
Speaker 5: It was always funny you should ask, but not in

1253
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:33,040
Speaker 5: the same way that most people think of nonfiction from

1254
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:34,840
Speaker 5: someone coming out of the military. So I have a

1255
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:36,960
Speaker 5: not from My first non fiction book comes out in

1256
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 5: fall of twenty twenty four, so about a year and

1257
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:42,080
Speaker 5: a half and writing with a historian James Scott. He's

1258
01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:43,960
Speaker 5: written five books, most of them on World War Two.

1259
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:47,560
Speaker 5: Amazing guy, And for my plan was always to write

1260
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 5: nonfiction on terrorist events. So this first one is about

1261
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:53,680
Speaker 5: the nineteen eighty three Bay Rout Barracks bombing, and so

1262
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:57,120
Speaker 5: it just hasn't really been the seminal work on that

1263
01:02:57,280 --> 01:02:58,400
Speaker 5: get and there's been something what.

1264
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:00,240
Speaker 1: He said to me last that I was like kind

1265
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:02,680
Speaker 1: of genius man, because there's like nothing about there's a

1266
01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:07,040
Speaker 1: few days revisited as commonly as other right seminal moment

1267
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:08,640
Speaker 1: exactly in military.

1268
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:10,440
Speaker 5: History exactly, And I have those. I mean, I remember

1269
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 5: distinctly some of my first memories of the nineteen seventy

1270
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:15,960
Speaker 5: nine hostage crisis, and I remember going to church and

1271
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:18,880
Speaker 5: praying for those people over there. I remember Walter Cronkite

1272
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:21,520
Speaker 5: counting down the days that they'd been held hostage over there.

1273
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:23,960
Speaker 5: I remember wondering why we hadn't gone to rescue them yet,

1274
01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:27,320
Speaker 5: So that some of my earliest memories are those black

1275
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:29,760
Speaker 5: and white photos of the people from the embassy with

1276
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:34,640
Speaker 5: their their eyes, you know, taped, tapped over and blindfolded

1277
01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 5: and all that. But yeah, it made sense when I'm

1278
01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:39,920
Speaker 5: looking at all those events that were so impactful during

1279
01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:42,800
Speaker 5: the eighties. In eighteen eighty three Bairit Barricks bombing, and

1280
01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:45,320
Speaker 5: today actually is the anniversary of the embassy bombing in

1281
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:48,919
Speaker 5: April of eighty three, and that's how we're looking into

1282
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:51,280
Speaker 5: that first, and then everything that leads up to the

1283
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:55,560
Speaker 5: October bombing of the marine barracks in Beirut. But I'm

1284
01:03:55,600 --> 01:03:57,640
Speaker 5: thinking about t w A eight four seven, I think

1285
01:03:57,640 --> 01:03:59,680
Speaker 5: you have, Achille Laurel. I'm thinking of panem one O three,

1286
01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:03,000
Speaker 5: thinking of all these different attacks in Europe at whether

1287
01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:05,720
Speaker 5: it's a cafe or a nightclub or whatever it might be.

1288
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:09,640
Speaker 5: In airports, multiple airports, which one to start with. And

1289
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:13,320
Speaker 5: the nineteen eighty three Barys bombing was so significant because

1290
01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:17,960
Speaker 5: it showed Hesbela in particular, that terrorism worked, and everyone

1291
01:04:18,040 --> 01:04:20,840
Speaker 5: else that was watching that isn't Hesbla that a terrorism worked.

1292
01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:22,680
Speaker 5: What did they want? They wanted us to leave Beirut?

1293
01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:23,160
Speaker 1: What do we do?

1294
01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:25,560
Speaker 5: We talked tough for a couple months afterward, and then

1295
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:29,919
Speaker 5: we left more quietly in early eighty four. So there's

1296
01:04:30,120 --> 01:04:32,800
Speaker 5: the geopolitical aspect of it that continues to shadow our

1297
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:35,680
Speaker 5: foreign policy today. So there's a lot to explore there.

1298
01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:38,760
Speaker 5: And then there's recently declassified documents about what was going

1299
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 5: on in the White House. Who was advocating for Marines

1300
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:45,320
Speaker 5: to go ashore, who's advocating that they should stay on

1301
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:49,919
Speaker 5: an AMPTHIB ship offshore, and how that decision got made,

1302
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:52,560
Speaker 5: And so we get to explore all that in detail.

1303
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:56,120
Speaker 5: Interview survivors, interview people that came to identify the bodies,

1304
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:58,360
Speaker 5: which is the same group that identified the bodies at

1305
01:04:58,400 --> 01:05:02,080
Speaker 5: Jonestown and so it's a there's lots of lots of

1306
01:05:02,200 --> 01:05:04,440
Speaker 5: unpack there, so that'll be the that'll be the first one.

1307
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:06,560
Speaker 5: So that was a very long way to answer that

1308
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:10,080
Speaker 5: nonfiction question. So, yeah, nonfiction's coming and uh in fall

1309
01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:11,080
Speaker 5: of twenty twenty.

1310
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:14,480
Speaker 1: Four, how do you how do you reconcile.

1311
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:15,760
Speaker 5: That you.

1312
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:26,080
Speaker 1: Spent so many years uh as a federal employee in

1313
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:30,200
Speaker 1: a chain of command that flowed down from from the

1314
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:34,680
Speaker 1: commander in chief, so like a democratically elected individual, and

1315
01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:36,800
Speaker 1: that flows down through all this stuff to the point

1316
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:41,240
Speaker 1: where you and your guys are have enough faith in

1317
01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:45,400
Speaker 1: that system where you're not only putting your lives at risk,

1318
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:48,160
Speaker 1: but your colleagues and frienziers are dying.

1319
01:05:48,360 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 5: Okay, so you have this, you've you've.

1320
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:57,600
Speaker 1: Completely bought into or are supportive of this, and then

1321
01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:05,000
Speaker 1: your work has like a conspiratorial tone. You know that

1322
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:09,040
Speaker 1: that not everything from up above is to be trusted.

1323
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:09,640
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1324
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:13,920
Speaker 1: Is that? Did you did you feel that way?

1325
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:15,600
Speaker 5: Or is that? Like?

1326
01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 1: Is that the writer?

1327
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:20,280
Speaker 5: Well, I certainly feel that way. Now, the government has

1328
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:22,440
Speaker 5: not done a very good job of showing us as

1329
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:25,640
Speaker 5: citizens that they can be trusted over time. And I'm

1330
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:28,120
Speaker 5: not just talking about recent history, it's throughout throughout our

1331
01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 5: history and throughout history in general. So I thought about it,

1332
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:34,040
Speaker 5: but not so much that would overshadow what my job was,

1333
01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:37,439
Speaker 5: which is to accomplish this mission and bring my guys home.

1334
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:39,920
Speaker 5: But you certainly think about it when you're over there.

1335
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:42,600
Speaker 5: Let's say Iraq, and you're there in two thousand and four,

1336
01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:45,160
Speaker 5: and then you come back in two thousand and five,

1337
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:48,040
Speaker 5: a year later, and you're like, Wow, things have gotten

1338
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:51,400
Speaker 5: a lot worse here. Yeah, nothing is better than when

1339
01:06:51,400 --> 01:06:53,080
Speaker 5: I left. Then you come back and they're still there

1340
01:06:53,080 --> 01:06:55,720
Speaker 5: in two thousand and six and looking around like miscontinues

1341
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:58,560
Speaker 5: to get worse. We continue to do the same things.

1342
01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:00,280
Speaker 5: And if you're a student of history and you're student

1343
01:07:00,320 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 5: of Vietnam and you're wondering what lessons we took from

1344
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:06,400
Speaker 5: that that we're applying to this, or if you're in Afghanistan,

1345
01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:08,400
Speaker 5: like in the early days, which I thought were the

1346
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:10,040
Speaker 5: late days in two thousand and three, I thought, oh,

1347
01:07:10,080 --> 01:07:12,920
Speaker 5: I'm going to miss this thing, and that didn't end

1348
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:15,480
Speaker 5: up being the case. But what lessons do we take

1349
01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:17,360
Speaker 5: from the Soviets? Did we take the right ones we

1350
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:19,960
Speaker 5: have nineteen seventy nine to eighty nine, and we can

1351
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:22,360
Speaker 5: look at all these everything that happened there, and we

1352
01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:25,600
Speaker 5: can draw lessons and we can apply them, hopefully as wisdom.

1353
01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:27,280
Speaker 5: And we neglected to do that, or we took the

1354
01:07:27,320 --> 01:07:29,800
Speaker 5: wrong lessons. I think we took the wrong lessons. We

1355
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:31,880
Speaker 5: didn't even have to go back to the three British incursions.

1356
01:07:31,880 --> 01:07:34,840
Speaker 5: We now have to go back to Alexander the Great

1357
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:36,840
Speaker 5: or Genghis Khan, like there was more recent history.

1358
01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:39,920
Speaker 1: Is it like Kipling? Everybody's always talking about everything you

1359
01:07:40,040 --> 01:07:41,280
Speaker 1: know about Afghanistans?

1360
01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:44,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's Yeah, it's great, great poem. It was on

1361
01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:47,200
Speaker 5: the wall of one of our CIA houses over there,

1362
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:49,760
Speaker 5: and I have a picture of it that I posted

1363
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:52,360
Speaker 5: on on social and I don't call out the quote people,

1364
01:07:52,520 --> 01:07:54,480
Speaker 5: some people will. I have always curious who's going to

1365
01:07:54,520 --> 01:07:56,160
Speaker 5: notice the quote in the background written on the on

1366
01:07:56,240 --> 01:07:59,800
Speaker 5: the wall. But yeah, we had these lessons, We had

1367
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:02,720
Speaker 5: history we could have looked at, and we neglected to

1368
01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:05,200
Speaker 5: do that and ended up being there for for twenty

1369
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:07,080
Speaker 5: years and then leaving in the way that we did,

1370
01:08:08,120 --> 01:08:10,240
Speaker 5: and then we have just was it just last week

1371
01:08:10,520 --> 01:08:14,480
Speaker 5: we have officials appointed officials talking about it was a

1372
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:17,400
Speaker 5: huge success the way we left Afghanistan. And then you

1373
01:08:17,439 --> 01:08:19,720
Speaker 5: can chextapose that with the photos of people hanging off

1374
01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:22,280
Speaker 5: jets and babies getting thrown over the walls and secured

1375
01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:25,760
Speaker 5: and barbed wire and okay, that's your death. That doesn't

1376
01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:27,880
Speaker 5: quite look like So you have twenty years to prepare

1377
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:31,280
Speaker 5: for this, guys, twenty years and this is your only job,

1378
01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:33,360
Speaker 5: and this is what you get. This is the best

1379
01:08:33,400 --> 01:08:35,200
Speaker 5: you can do. But there's no I told them accountable

1380
01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:38,439
Speaker 5: in the pages of my novels, because don't differ accountable really.

1381
01:08:39,400 --> 01:08:44,240
Speaker 1: Like inept Oh there's anod there's but there's a neptitude.

1382
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:47,320
Speaker 1: But then there's mail in tent.

1383
01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:50,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think a lot of ineptitude is the way

1384
01:08:51,160 --> 01:08:54,400
Speaker 5: is if you have to blame something, because there hasn't

1385
01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:59,479
Speaker 5: been accountability really since Vietnam, since well before Vietnam. World

1386
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:01,800
Speaker 5: War Two, there was a lot of accountability. George. People

1387
01:09:01,960 --> 01:09:05,280
Speaker 5: know George Marshall for the Marshall Plan rebuilding Europe, But

1388
01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:07,519
Speaker 5: really what George Marshall did and a lead up to

1389
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:09,840
Speaker 5: World War two and during World War two was hold

1390
01:09:10,120 --> 01:09:13,040
Speaker 5: leaders accountable and remove them. He'd give them a one chance,

1391
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:16,320
Speaker 5: maybe two not a third out of the way. Put

1392
01:09:16,360 --> 01:09:18,000
Speaker 5: someone in there that can get this job done. And

1393
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:21,080
Speaker 5: all those names that we know, from Nimitz to MacArthur

1394
01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:23,960
Speaker 5: to Patent, all those guys got there because someone in

1395
01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:26,920
Speaker 5: front of them failed and they were held accountable, they

1396
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:28,680
Speaker 5: were removed, and we put somebody else in place to

1397
01:09:28,680 --> 01:09:30,519
Speaker 5: see if they could do it. Back to the Civil War,

1398
01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:34,120
Speaker 5: Lincoln replaced after general after general after general until he

1399
01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:37,360
Speaker 5: got to Grant. Then somehow those things start to change.

1400
01:09:37,400 --> 01:09:39,840
Speaker 5: Maybe it's in Korea, but for sure by Vietnam. Now

1401
01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:42,599
Speaker 5: we have failure on the battlefield and what happens, well,

1402
01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:44,840
Speaker 5: they are not held accountable, they get out, they sit

1403
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:47,599
Speaker 5: on boards of these different companies, and that has been

1404
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:50,840
Speaker 5: pervasive all the way through today. There's a great book

1405
01:09:50,880 --> 01:09:53,519
Speaker 5: called the Afghanistan Papers by Craig Whitlock of the Washington Post,

1406
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:58,240
Speaker 5: who got these interviews through two Freedom of Information Act

1407
01:09:58,320 --> 01:10:03,000
Speaker 5: lawsuits with the I think Department of Defense. But it

1408
01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:06,160
Speaker 5: was these officers coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan being

1409
01:10:06,280 --> 01:10:08,200
Speaker 5: interviewed in a way that they thought was going to

1410
01:10:08,240 --> 01:10:11,840
Speaker 5: remain classified. And then he juxtaposes what they said in

1411
01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:14,719
Speaker 5: those interviews with what they said in front of Congress,

1412
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:17,360
Speaker 5: so essentially to the American people, to their troops, to

1413
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:20,800
Speaker 5: our elected representatives, and it's one to eighty out. And

1414
01:10:21,280 --> 01:10:22,800
Speaker 5: there's one guy, I think it's a two thousand and

1415
01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:25,840
Speaker 5: nine one general or admiral that says something it's not

1416
01:10:25,880 --> 01:10:27,880
Speaker 5: even that bad. And he's like, hey, things aren't really

1417
01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:30,800
Speaker 5: going as well over there as we think. If you've

1418
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:35,080
Speaker 5: been led to believe, that's about as bad as it got.

1419
01:10:35,479 --> 01:10:39,080
Speaker 5: And he was quietly removed a few months later. Yeah,

1420
01:10:39,240 --> 01:10:43,040
Speaker 5: So it's that non accountability that is really I think

1421
01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:44,320
Speaker 5: killing us as a nation.

1422
01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:56,160
Speaker 1: I got a friend that spent a lot of years

1423
01:10:56,880 --> 01:11:01,120
Speaker 1: fighting in Afghanistan and he had mentioned that before he

1424
01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:08,040
Speaker 1: went there, his some commanding officer had wanted to have

1425
01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:14,240
Speaker 1: a lecturer come to talk about Afghan history and it

1426
01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:17,400
Speaker 1: wasn't condoned. And he always admired this officer because they

1427
01:11:17,439 --> 01:11:19,320
Speaker 1: paid for the speaker out of their own pocket and

1428
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:23,360
Speaker 1: flew the speaker out to come, and they basically came

1429
01:11:23,439 --> 01:11:28,479
Speaker 1: in ten years in advance, he said, looking back, they

1430
01:11:28,560 --> 01:11:32,760
Speaker 1: came and told us what would happen. Yeah, and this

1431
01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:36,000
Speaker 1: was this was an uncondoned perspective, but it was it was.

1432
01:11:36,200 --> 01:11:39,000
Speaker 1: It was an Afghan it was in the US and

1433
01:11:39,040 --> 01:11:41,280
Speaker 1: they were I can't remember. They were professors somewhere, and

1434
01:11:41,360 --> 01:11:44,519
Speaker 1: he said, looking back, they came and basically said, here's

1435
01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:49,120
Speaker 1: what will happen ten years from now. And when when

1436
01:11:50,200 --> 01:11:56,040
Speaker 1: when we pulled out and cobble fell, I texted to say, like, man,

1437
01:11:56,280 --> 01:11:59,599
Speaker 1: it's got to be emotional for you or in some way,

1438
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:03,000
Speaker 1: and he just said, I've for a long time, I

1439
01:12:03,160 --> 01:12:07,439
Speaker 1: just haven't been able to see any other outcome. There's

1440
01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:11,839
Speaker 1: nothing we've done on like assessments that would suggest otherwise

1441
01:12:12,360 --> 01:12:15,800
Speaker 1: to act like this is a surprise as bullshit. Yeah,

1442
01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:17,800
Speaker 1: it was his take, his take on and now someone

1443
01:12:17,840 --> 01:12:18,840
Speaker 1: has spent a lot of years there.

1444
01:12:19,040 --> 01:12:21,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, we had all those years to study, all

1445
01:12:21,560 --> 01:12:24,160
Speaker 5: those years to prepare. You could see from the spring

1446
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:28,439
Speaker 5: end of the summer, province by province falling and it's yeah,

1447
01:12:28,600 --> 01:12:32,360
Speaker 5: it's really remarkable being aptitude amongst our senior level leaders

1448
01:12:32,400 --> 01:12:36,559
Speaker 5: that allowed them to put these eighteen nineteen twenty twenty

1449
01:12:36,600 --> 01:12:39,040
Speaker 5: two year old kids at this gate at Kabo Airport

1450
01:12:39,080 --> 01:12:42,360
Speaker 5: in a tactically dis advantageous position when we held the

1451
01:12:42,439 --> 01:12:46,840
Speaker 5: tactically advantageous position for twenty years at Bogram And it's

1452
01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:48,639
Speaker 5: just for those who have been there, they'll know exactly

1453
01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:51,160
Speaker 5: what I'm talking about, the standoff distances and everything else

1454
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:53,639
Speaker 5: involved in securing an area or an airport. In this case,

1455
01:12:54,439 --> 01:12:58,120
Speaker 5: I mean, it's it's criminal, and yet no one's held accountable,

1456
01:12:58,200 --> 01:13:01,240
Speaker 5: no one was no one was even quiet moved aside.

1457
01:13:01,360 --> 01:13:03,680
Speaker 5: At those senior levels, they just continue to do their

1458
01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:05,559
Speaker 5: job and they'll retire with a full pension and then

1459
01:13:05,600 --> 01:13:07,280
Speaker 5: sit on a board, go to a couple of meetings

1460
01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:09,680
Speaker 5: a year for some of these defense contracting companies, and

1461
01:13:10,760 --> 01:13:14,200
Speaker 5: the machine rolls on. Unfortunately, this is.

1462
01:13:14,240 --> 01:13:16,040
Speaker 1: So far removed from anything to do with hunting and

1463
01:13:16,120 --> 01:13:18,160
Speaker 1: fish and whatnot. But there's a lot of parallels, but

1464
01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:24,560
Speaker 1: I don't even care. Yeah, in hindsight, Okay, with the

1465
01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:28,360
Speaker 1: gift of hindsight, do you have any idea of what,

1466
01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:35,720
Speaker 1: when and what should have been done in Afghanistan overall? Yeah?

1467
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:38,280
Speaker 5: I mean you can go back to December of twenty

1468
01:13:38,320 --> 01:13:40,800
Speaker 5: twenty one, that's what I mean. Yeah, And when I

1469
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:42,759
Speaker 5: talk about those lessons that we learned from the Soviets,

1470
01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:45,400
Speaker 5: I think our senior level leaders took, hey, we need

1471
01:13:45,479 --> 01:13:47,960
Speaker 5: a small footprint there. The Soviets went in with too

1472
01:13:48,040 --> 01:13:51,360
Speaker 5: many people, too many targets too heavy handed and it

1473
01:13:51,479 --> 01:13:53,840
Speaker 5: ended up being their their Vietnam is what they you know,

1474
01:13:54,240 --> 01:13:56,599
Speaker 5: like to they like determin it for ten years.

1475
01:13:56,640 --> 01:13:57,920
Speaker 1: I think they maybe found a new one.

1476
01:13:58,240 --> 01:13:59,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, they to find a new one. We'll see,

1477
01:14:00,479 --> 01:14:03,040
Speaker 5: they've got nine years to see if that's and yeah

1478
01:14:03,080 --> 01:14:05,280
Speaker 5: they yeah, it's uh and they haven't even started. Really,

1479
01:14:05,320 --> 01:14:07,200
Speaker 5: I don't think as far as they're throwing bodies at

1480
01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:07,679
Speaker 5: that problem.

1481
01:14:08,120 --> 01:14:11,200
Speaker 3: But not if you look at history, Yeah that their

1482
01:14:11,280 --> 01:14:13,439
Speaker 3: previous commitments and manpower.

1483
01:14:13,160 --> 01:14:17,960
Speaker 5: Exactly, yeah, exactly. But yeah, December twenty twenty one, multiple

1484
01:14:18,800 --> 01:14:22,720
Speaker 5: requests from guys on the ground requesting either rangers or

1485
01:14:22,800 --> 01:14:26,240
Speaker 5: tenth Mountain Division Marines, somebody come in, block off these

1486
01:14:26,280 --> 01:14:28,960
Speaker 5: passes into Pakistan. We have Asama bin Laden right here

1487
01:14:29,439 --> 01:14:34,800
Speaker 5: in these mountains. All those requests denied and slips away

1488
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:38,679
Speaker 5: and we get the next twenty years for whatever reason.

1489
01:14:39,160 --> 01:14:42,439
Speaker 5: So there's one. So there's there's one. But then now

1490
01:14:42,560 --> 01:14:44,360
Speaker 5: that you're in this thing, now what do you do?

1491
01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:46,040
Speaker 5: And now why are we there? And then well we

1492
01:14:46,080 --> 01:14:48,320
Speaker 5: get distracted by Iraq and all those resources that were

1493
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:51,200
Speaker 5: focused on Afghanistan shift over to Iraq in two thousand

1494
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:52,639
Speaker 5: and three, and you could see it on the ground

1495
01:14:52,680 --> 01:14:55,000
Speaker 5: in Afghanistan, you could see all these assets kind of

1496
01:14:55,040 --> 01:14:57,439
Speaker 5: pick up and and all these people that were doing

1497
01:14:57,479 --> 01:15:00,479
Speaker 5: all these jobs before just aren't there anymore. Just to

1498
01:15:00,520 --> 01:15:03,360
Speaker 5: a few people to keep things kind of keep things moving,

1499
01:15:03,439 --> 01:15:07,200
Speaker 5: keep these outstations supplied, keep this air overhead in case

1500
01:15:07,240 --> 01:15:10,040
Speaker 5: people need it. So, yeah, there are so many lessons

1501
01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:11,720
Speaker 5: that we can take and apply going forward. And that's

1502
01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:13,040
Speaker 5: what we're not so good at it as a country

1503
01:15:13,360 --> 01:15:15,360
Speaker 5: is taking those lessons and applying them going forward as

1504
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:17,840
Speaker 5: wisdom because we're looking at for your election cycles, eight

1505
01:15:17,920 --> 01:15:20,280
Speaker 5: your election cycles for the real deep thinkers among us,

1506
01:15:20,600 --> 01:15:24,280
Speaker 5: But we're really not honoring all those people that either

1507
01:15:24,360 --> 01:15:26,760
Speaker 5: died or came home damaged from the wars in Iraq

1508
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:28,760
Speaker 5: and Afghanistan. And the way we can now honor them

1509
01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:31,320
Speaker 5: is by taking those lessons and applying them going forward

1510
01:15:31,360 --> 01:15:33,720
Speaker 5: to this next generation. So these next these kids don't

1511
01:15:33,760 --> 01:15:35,000
Speaker 5: have to do the same things or don't have to

1512
01:15:35,040 --> 01:15:37,120
Speaker 5: suffer and through another twenty year war because of the

1513
01:15:37,120 --> 01:15:40,040
Speaker 5: ineptitude of senior level leadership. But really, in the military,

1514
01:15:40,360 --> 01:15:43,000
Speaker 5: as long as you don't pop positive on a piss test,

1515
01:15:43,560 --> 01:15:45,559
Speaker 5: as long as you don't get arrested, too many times

1516
01:15:45,640 --> 01:15:47,760
Speaker 5: or get arrested for like domestic violence or something like that.

1517
01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:49,720
Speaker 5: You're going to pretty much rise to the top if

1518
01:15:49,720 --> 01:15:51,880
Speaker 5: you just remain quiet, and you're going to see people

1519
01:15:52,200 --> 01:15:54,479
Speaker 5: that are kind of those go getters, those hard chargers.

1520
01:15:54,680 --> 01:15:56,120
Speaker 5: A lot of those people get to a certain level

1521
01:15:56,160 --> 01:15:59,080
Speaker 5: and move on out, either because they just want to

1522
01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:02,080
Speaker 5: do something in the private sect, or they they're kind

1523
01:16:02,120 --> 01:16:04,360
Speaker 5: of disenfranchised by what they what they see at senior

1524
01:16:04,439 --> 01:16:06,240
Speaker 5: level leaders or see their path ahead and they're like,

1525
01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:08,639
Speaker 5: I'm not gonna go work for that guy. I'm out.

1526
01:16:09,600 --> 01:16:12,080
Speaker 5: So really he's It's not the best and the brightest

1527
01:16:12,160 --> 01:16:14,679
Speaker 5: that are in my experien I'm sure there are exceptions

1528
01:16:14,720 --> 01:16:16,800
Speaker 5: for those that are listening. Yes, there are exceptions, but

1529
01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:18,800
Speaker 5: for the most part, if you just kind of keep

1530
01:16:18,840 --> 01:16:20,960
Speaker 5: your nose clean and stay out of trouble, you can

1531
01:16:21,160 --> 01:16:23,840
Speaker 5: rise up in any in government service in general.

1532
01:16:25,120 --> 01:16:27,760
Speaker 1: Do you I don't mean to keep beating this one

1533
01:16:27,760 --> 01:16:32,240
Speaker 1: into the ground, but do you think that do you

1534
01:16:32,320 --> 01:16:36,519
Speaker 1: think that the Afghanistans should have just been to focus

1535
01:16:36,600 --> 01:16:39,560
Speaker 1: on al Qaeda and then just that and had that

1536
01:16:39,640 --> 01:16:39,800
Speaker 1: be it.

1537
01:16:40,479 --> 01:16:44,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, we definitely did not understand that al Qaeda was

1538
01:16:44,439 --> 01:16:46,920
Speaker 5: a guest that there are guests of the Taliban, and

1539
01:16:47,160 --> 01:16:49,320
Speaker 5: over there, if you were the guests of someone, well,

1540
01:16:49,479 --> 01:16:53,040
Speaker 5: guess what that person or that tribe is now obligated

1541
01:16:53,360 --> 01:16:56,560
Speaker 5: to defend you. And we stepped right into that. And

1542
01:16:56,680 --> 01:16:59,960
Speaker 5: so we made enemies of the Taliban. Who I mean,

1543
01:17:00,040 --> 01:17:03,920
Speaker 5: they're not, yeah, not the greater. They're just destroying these

1544
01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:07,800
Speaker 5: the Buddhist statues or earlier on. And obviously they weren't

1545
01:17:07,800 --> 01:17:10,000
Speaker 5: in New York City. They're not. Well maybe now it's

1546
01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:11,960
Speaker 5: a little closer from what I've seen on the news

1547
01:17:12,040 --> 01:17:17,160
Speaker 5: and videos I'm seeing, but we definitely made an enemy

1548
01:17:17,200 --> 01:17:19,760
Speaker 5: of someone. The accidental Gorilla is a good way to

1549
01:17:19,840 --> 01:17:21,519
Speaker 5: put a David cookol And has a great book called

1550
01:17:21,520 --> 01:17:24,880
Speaker 5: The Accidental Gorilla, and we made a lot. It's also

1551
01:17:24,960 --> 01:17:28,759
Speaker 5: called insurgent math. So you go in and kill somebody

1552
01:17:28,840 --> 01:17:31,680
Speaker 5: and guess what his kid sees you do that. And

1553
01:17:32,080 --> 01:17:34,559
Speaker 5: but what's that kid going to do? Well, he's probably

1554
01:17:34,600 --> 01:17:37,600
Speaker 5: going to join the Taliban or whatever organization that's going

1555
01:17:37,680 --> 01:17:41,920
Speaker 5: to allow him to now also honor his tribe by

1556
01:17:42,120 --> 01:17:44,599
Speaker 5: getting revenge, because that's part of the culture as well,

1557
01:17:45,240 --> 01:17:47,960
Speaker 5: deeply embedded. It's deeply meted in a lot of cultures.

1558
01:17:48,000 --> 01:17:50,880
Speaker 5: Not just not just Afghan not just Taliban, but we

1559
01:17:51,000 --> 01:17:54,679
Speaker 5: made a lot of enemies for sure. In twenty years

1560
01:17:54,720 --> 01:17:57,880
Speaker 5: we had ample opportunity to do that. So if we'd

1561
01:17:57,920 --> 01:18:00,320
Speaker 5: gone in with taken a little more lessons from the

1562
01:18:00,360 --> 01:18:04,240
Speaker 5: Soviets and realized that if we went in heavy handed,

1563
01:18:04,360 --> 01:18:07,200
Speaker 5: did the job and got out, we would accomplish that goal.

1564
01:18:07,280 --> 01:18:08,800
Speaker 5: But for some reason we stayed and then for some

1565
01:18:08,920 --> 01:18:12,320
Speaker 5: reason we got out the way we did. So not

1566
01:18:12,439 --> 01:18:18,519
Speaker 5: a big nation building guy, no expeditionary counterinsurgency is very difficult.

1567
01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:21,920
Speaker 5: So if you have a counterinsurgency campaign on your own soil,

1568
01:18:22,479 --> 01:18:26,960
Speaker 5: it's different than doing it overseas, doing it on someone

1569
01:18:27,040 --> 01:18:30,040
Speaker 5: else's turf, which can prove to be There are a

1570
01:18:30,080 --> 01:18:35,080
Speaker 5: couple instances of long term commitments playing out Malayia places

1571
01:18:35,120 --> 01:18:39,040
Speaker 5: like that, but that's a long term commitment with a

1572
01:18:39,240 --> 01:18:44,559
Speaker 5: cohesive strategy, not shifting here and there and not rewarding

1573
01:18:44,600 --> 01:18:47,400
Speaker 5: people for failure, which is what we do. People keep

1574
01:18:47,439 --> 01:18:48,840
Speaker 5: failing up in our system.

1575
01:18:50,600 --> 01:18:53,120
Speaker 1: You mentioned me last night that when you got when

1576
01:18:53,160 --> 01:18:55,200
Speaker 1: you finally got done at the military, you were looking

1577
01:18:55,320 --> 01:18:59,080
Speaker 1: for I'm sorry, I don't think this would be private.

1578
01:18:59,479 --> 01:19:00,000
Speaker 1: You were looking for.

1579
01:19:01,479 --> 01:19:06,439
Speaker 5: Physical and physical and psychological step, psychological separation. Yeah, I

1580
01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:08,400
Speaker 5: just saw so many during my last couple of years

1581
01:19:08,439 --> 01:19:09,800
Speaker 5: in I was at BUDS, so I was at our

1582
01:19:09,840 --> 01:19:12,360
Speaker 5: seal training commands, so I wasn't taking guys down range anymore.

1583
01:19:12,600 --> 01:19:14,240
Speaker 5: And I had all this leave built up from all

1584
01:19:14,280 --> 01:19:16,280
Speaker 5: these all these years that I wasn't really taking leave

1585
01:19:16,280 --> 01:19:19,439
Speaker 5: because I was so focused on being the best leader

1586
01:19:19,640 --> 01:19:22,320
Speaker 5: operator I possibly could. I was so focused and I

1587
01:19:22,400 --> 01:19:24,800
Speaker 5: think being honest with my wife about that, realizing that, hey,

1588
01:19:24,880 --> 01:19:27,240
Speaker 5: the team is coming first, and that's just how it

1589
01:19:27,320 --> 01:19:30,400
Speaker 5: has to be because you're responsible for those guys' lives downrange,

1590
01:19:30,880 --> 01:19:33,439
Speaker 5: so youhowe it to them, their families, the country, the

1591
01:19:33,520 --> 01:19:36,599
Speaker 5: mission to team. That's just how it's going to be. Eventually,

1592
01:19:36,800 --> 01:19:39,240
Speaker 5: when we're out, it'll it'll switch back. So when I

1593
01:19:39,280 --> 01:19:41,439
Speaker 5: got to Buds and I wasn't taking guys down range anymore,

1594
01:19:41,439 --> 01:19:43,040
Speaker 5: I could kind of take a breath and look around.

1595
01:19:43,240 --> 01:19:44,880
Speaker 5: I realized that I was going to get out. The

1596
01:19:44,960 --> 01:19:47,960
Speaker 5: pendulum started to just swing back. Because Buds is a machine,

1597
01:19:48,280 --> 01:19:50,200
Speaker 5: and it's push ups, it's sit ups, it's pull ups,

1598
01:19:50,200 --> 01:19:52,639
Speaker 5: it's runs, it's swims, it's it's what it has been

1599
01:19:52,760 --> 01:19:54,400
Speaker 5: for a long time.

1600
01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:56,360
Speaker 1: Oh, well, we know all about that because we have

1601
01:19:56,439 --> 01:19:57,479
Speaker 1: a thing now and then where you have to do

1602
01:19:57,520 --> 01:19:58,519
Speaker 1: one hundred push ups.

1603
01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:00,559
Speaker 5: In a day. Oh my goodness, you got to all

1604
01:20:00,560 --> 01:20:00,840
Speaker 5: about that.

1605
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:03,760
Speaker 1: It's called the club.

1606
01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:06,519
Speaker 5: How many guys have you lost called the club? Well,

1607
01:20:06,560 --> 01:20:11,559
Speaker 5: it kind of comes was like, well, we'll.

1608
01:20:11,479 --> 01:20:13,320
Speaker 1: Have it be that we're gonna have the Hondole Club

1609
01:20:13,360 --> 01:20:15,519
Speaker 1: every day, but it winds up being like now and

1610
01:20:15,600 --> 01:20:16,720
Speaker 1: then we'll do a hondle club.

1611
01:20:17,400 --> 01:20:20,920
Speaker 5: So I completely understand now by the way you get it,

1612
01:20:21,040 --> 01:20:24,920
Speaker 5: I get for sure, But but I got to see

1613
01:20:25,240 --> 01:20:27,960
Speaker 5: people getting out and is My role is the operations officer,

1614
01:20:28,000 --> 01:20:29,840
Speaker 5: which is like a COO of a company, so you're

1615
01:20:29,960 --> 01:20:32,120
Speaker 5: kind of running day to day operations. But at BUDS,

1616
01:20:32,120 --> 01:20:34,560
Speaker 5: they're really running themselves because you have an officer and

1617
01:20:34,600 --> 01:20:36,639
Speaker 5: a master chief or a senior chief in every phase

1618
01:20:36,680 --> 01:20:39,120
Speaker 5: of training, and they've got it. Like they don't, they've

1619
01:20:39,160 --> 01:20:41,160
Speaker 5: got it. So you kind of have some some time.

1620
01:20:41,439 --> 01:20:44,280
Speaker 5: And I saw people get out of the military and

1621
01:20:44,840 --> 01:20:47,439
Speaker 5: have a hard time leaving it behind because you have

1622
01:20:47,600 --> 01:20:49,960
Speaker 5: this mission, you're so dedicated to it, You're best friends

1623
01:20:50,000 --> 01:20:51,840
Speaker 5: are a part of it. When you're downranged there to

1624
01:20:51,880 --> 01:20:53,400
Speaker 5: your right and your left and you're not worried about

1625
01:20:53,400 --> 01:20:56,439
Speaker 5: paying bills or leaky faucets or anything like that. You're

1626
01:20:56,560 --> 01:20:59,719
Speaker 5: solely focused on building target packages and going and executing

1627
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:03,160
Speaker 5: those missions. Then you come home and you transition out

1628
01:21:03,240 --> 01:21:05,200
Speaker 5: and you think maybe you can recreate that in the

1629
01:21:05,240 --> 01:21:08,760
Speaker 5: private sector or something similar, and for some reason it's

1630
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:11,720
Speaker 5: a surprise that you can't. And either you try to

1631
01:21:11,760 --> 01:21:15,280
Speaker 5: get back in or you're calling me as the operations

1632
01:21:15,320 --> 01:21:17,320
Speaker 5: officer saying, hey, can I bring my new boss buy

1633
01:21:17,400 --> 01:21:19,560
Speaker 5: for a tour? And I was always like absolutely, you

1634
01:21:19,640 --> 01:21:21,800
Speaker 5: know for sure, Even when I got told no by

1635
01:21:21,880 --> 01:21:23,960
Speaker 5: senior level leadership, I was always like, yeah, I just

1636
01:21:23,960 --> 01:21:25,479
Speaker 5: come by when at this time, because I know that

1637
01:21:25,520 --> 01:21:27,200
Speaker 5: guy is going to be gone and you know we'll

1638
01:21:27,200 --> 01:21:29,120
Speaker 5: get this, get this done for you. So I was

1639
01:21:29,160 --> 01:21:32,240
Speaker 5: always trying to hook up good guys in the teams

1640
01:21:32,360 --> 01:21:33,000
Speaker 5: or or out.

1641
01:21:33,240 --> 01:21:35,000
Speaker 1: But at the point being away.

1642
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:36,400
Speaker 5: It was hard. It was hard for a lot of

1643
01:21:36,400 --> 01:21:38,800
Speaker 5: people to stay away all these foundation events that you

1644
01:21:38,920 --> 01:21:41,400
Speaker 5: have to support military families, you know, continuing to go

1645
01:21:41,479 --> 01:21:44,120
Speaker 5: to those going to the same grocery stores, the same bars,

1646
01:21:44,160 --> 01:21:46,680
Speaker 5: dropping your kids off at the same schools where you're seeing, uh,

1647
01:21:46,880 --> 01:21:49,000
Speaker 5: either somebody that was on your team before dropping their

1648
01:21:49,040 --> 01:21:50,880
Speaker 5: kid off because they happened to be at a shore duty,

1649
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:53,320
Speaker 5: or you see the wife dropping the kid off and

1650
01:21:53,400 --> 01:21:55,680
Speaker 5: wondering where the husband's down range in a racker Afghanistan

1651
01:21:55,720 --> 01:21:58,560
Speaker 5: and you're feeling guilty about not being there. So I

1652
01:21:58,720 --> 01:22:01,280
Speaker 5: saw that those couple of years that I was at

1653
01:22:01,320 --> 01:22:03,000
Speaker 5: Buds at the end of my time in the military

1654
01:22:03,040 --> 01:22:05,960
Speaker 5: and decided that Okay, it's ull probably be healthy to

1655
01:22:06,280 --> 01:22:09,000
Speaker 5: make this physical and psychological break and head up to

1656
01:22:09,080 --> 01:22:11,160
Speaker 5: Park City, Utah raise our kids in a ski town.

1657
01:22:11,439 --> 01:22:12,599
Speaker 5: And I think that was a good decision.

1658
01:22:12,960 --> 01:22:17,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, because talking about that, you know, you're like, your

1659
01:22:18,320 --> 01:22:21,280
Speaker 1: boy likes the ski, your daughter likes the hunt. I mean,

1660
01:22:21,680 --> 01:22:23,920
Speaker 1: do you at night feel like you need to at

1661
01:22:23,920 --> 01:22:25,000
Speaker 1: the end of the day be like, you know, I

1662
01:22:25,080 --> 01:22:29,840
Speaker 1: want to remind you that there are are horrible things

1663
01:22:30,320 --> 01:22:32,960
Speaker 1: happened to people around this world. Or are you like

1664
01:22:34,040 --> 01:22:36,439
Speaker 1: that that the point of this is that that's not

1665
01:22:36,560 --> 01:22:37,439
Speaker 1: part of everyday life.

1666
01:22:37,840 --> 01:22:37,880
Speaker 6: No.

1667
01:22:38,000 --> 01:22:39,920
Speaker 5: I think about it and we talk about it, and

1668
01:22:39,960 --> 01:22:41,960
Speaker 5: I see that sun setting over the mountains and I

1669
01:22:42,040 --> 01:22:43,840
Speaker 5: think that it's going down here, but it's coming up

1670
01:22:44,120 --> 01:22:47,240
Speaker 5: somewhere else, that somewhere else may have a group of

1671
01:22:47,360 --> 01:22:51,240
Speaker 5: special Operators or sa PERI military guys just coming back

1672
01:22:51,280 --> 01:22:53,240
Speaker 5: from a mission or getting ready to go do some

1673
01:22:53,320 --> 01:22:56,600
Speaker 5: sort of daylight op somewhere. They're fixing gear from the

1674
01:22:56,680 --> 01:23:00,519
Speaker 5: night before, they're loading magazines, they're treating wounded, they're gassing

1675
01:23:00,600 --> 01:23:03,559
Speaker 5: up vehicles, or whatever they're doing. They will never hear

1676
01:23:03,600 --> 01:23:06,160
Speaker 5: about unless something goes wrong, and then we'll hear about

1677
01:23:06,160 --> 01:23:09,400
Speaker 5: it in the news. But if it goes well enough

1678
01:23:09,640 --> 01:23:12,000
Speaker 5: that no one dies, we're probably not going to hear

1679
01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:14,040
Speaker 5: about it. So I think about that. I think about

1680
01:23:14,080 --> 01:23:16,880
Speaker 5: that every day, but I don't dwell on it. I

1681
01:23:17,000 --> 01:23:19,680
Speaker 5: appreciate that they're out there doing that job so I

1682
01:23:19,720 --> 01:23:21,560
Speaker 5: can be back here doing what I love, which is

1683
01:23:21,640 --> 01:23:23,880
Speaker 5: which is writing. But I never forget it. I never

1684
01:23:23,960 --> 01:23:24,680
Speaker 5: forget they're out there.

1685
01:23:25,080 --> 01:23:29,400
Speaker 1: Did you get to it with writing? Did you also

1686
01:23:29,479 --> 01:23:31,760
Speaker 1: one day be like okay, because you knew you're gonna

1687
01:23:31,800 --> 01:23:33,320
Speaker 1: you know, you wanted to write since you were a kid.

1688
01:23:34,479 --> 01:23:37,040
Speaker 1: Did you one day be like okay, now now it begins,

1689
01:23:37,400 --> 01:23:40,400
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, just said a typewriter.

1690
01:23:40,560 --> 01:23:41,920
Speaker 5: Yep, yep, sat down my computer.

1691
01:23:42,680 --> 01:23:44,479
Speaker 1: Here's a movie. It'll be a type yeah exactly.

1692
01:23:44,479 --> 01:23:48,160
Speaker 5: I collect old typewriters now, actually at Havyway. Somebody gifted

1693
01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:50,479
Speaker 5: it to me in early twenty twenty. Yeah, he wrote

1694
01:23:50,479 --> 01:23:53,360
Speaker 5: a movable feast on it, published after after he died.

1695
01:23:53,640 --> 01:23:55,720
Speaker 5: But but yeah, so I have that. That's I really.

1696
01:23:55,720 --> 01:23:57,720
Speaker 5: A bunch of his stuff went up for sale. Yeah,

1697
01:23:57,760 --> 01:24:02,360
Speaker 5: the guy that started Newman's Owne with Paul Newman also

1698
01:24:02,800 --> 01:24:05,400
Speaker 5: was part of that that that crowd and had had

1699
01:24:05,439 --> 01:24:08,479
Speaker 5: purchased this typewriter for Hemingway to write a move Wolf

1700
01:24:08,479 --> 01:24:11,160
Speaker 5: east On in New York. Actually, and all his this

1701
01:24:11,200 --> 01:24:13,240
Speaker 5: stuff went up for sale when he passed away, and

1702
01:24:13,560 --> 01:24:16,360
Speaker 5: I was early twenty twenty, and a fan reached out

1703
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:17,640
Speaker 5: and said that they wanted me to have it. So,

1704
01:24:18,280 --> 01:24:20,720
Speaker 5: I mean, waste typewriter now, but I don't work. I

1705
01:24:20,760 --> 01:24:22,599
Speaker 5: typed one thing on it. I wrote one Hemingway quote

1706
01:24:22,880 --> 01:24:25,240
Speaker 5: and I put it on there, and and I write

1707
01:24:25,479 --> 01:24:28,639
Speaker 5: everything on my MacBook.

1708
01:24:29,120 --> 01:24:30,320
Speaker 1: Cred. Do you think I should put him in his

1709
01:24:30,400 --> 01:24:32,160
Speaker 1: place and tell him about how we have that knife

1710
01:24:32,200 --> 01:24:33,680
Speaker 1: that was used to get the weights out of the

1711
01:24:33,760 --> 01:24:35,519
Speaker 1: walleye at the Walleye cheating scandal.

1712
01:24:35,760 --> 01:24:38,519
Speaker 5: Oh wow, I feel like this is a story that's

1713
01:24:38,520 --> 01:24:41,240
Speaker 5: been told him this podcast before anyway, typewriter.

1714
01:24:42,640 --> 01:24:43,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm not.

1715
01:24:43,840 --> 01:24:44,959
Speaker 5: Sure the two campaigns.

1716
01:24:45,640 --> 01:24:48,000
Speaker 1: That's cool, but yes I did.

1717
01:24:48,080 --> 01:24:51,000
Speaker 5: I sat down, looked around after I was at buds

1718
01:24:51,040 --> 01:24:53,680
Speaker 5: and was like, Okay, my family needs me, son needs me.

1719
01:24:53,880 --> 01:24:55,600
Speaker 5: It's time to make this stay and I'm not going

1720
01:24:55,680 --> 01:24:58,280
Speaker 5: to go through this, uh this next ten years. So

1721
01:24:58,560 --> 01:25:01,080
Speaker 5: essentially come back as a commanding officer somewhere. It's time

1722
01:25:01,160 --> 01:25:03,160
Speaker 5: to get out. It was a good run. Started enlisted,

1723
01:25:03,400 --> 01:25:05,080
Speaker 5: did all the things I wanted to do, became an officer,

1724
01:25:06,080 --> 01:25:07,760
Speaker 5: got out as a troop commander at the end of

1725
01:25:07,960 --> 01:25:10,080
Speaker 5: when we got out a rack in twenty eleven, and

1726
01:25:10,200 --> 01:25:13,400
Speaker 5: now got home, looked around, realized that was a good

1727
01:25:13,479 --> 01:25:14,920
Speaker 5: run to time to get out.

1728
01:25:15,000 --> 01:25:18,120
Speaker 1: Did your wife think you were nuts? No, No, I

1729
01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:19,639
Speaker 1: will become a famous writer.

1730
01:25:21,160 --> 01:25:23,640
Speaker 5: We known each other since we were eighteen, and so

1731
01:25:23,720 --> 01:25:25,200
Speaker 5: the whole time I wanted to be a seal and

1732
01:25:25,320 --> 01:25:27,799
Speaker 5: an author. And so she's seen all these books travel

1733
01:25:28,040 --> 01:25:30,200
Speaker 5: with us from the days that I was eighteen, I

1734
01:25:30,240 --> 01:25:31,880
Speaker 5: still had books all over the place, and I still

1735
01:25:31,920 --> 01:25:34,880
Speaker 5: have those books. So she's been she's used to it,

1736
01:25:35,280 --> 01:25:37,439
Speaker 5: and she just knows that, yeah, this was my plan,

1737
01:25:37,560 --> 01:25:41,000
Speaker 5: so she's not she's not surprised by it. When when

1738
01:25:41,080 --> 01:25:41,360
Speaker 5: it was.

1739
01:25:41,439 --> 01:25:45,600
Speaker 4: Time to write like before that, like, leading up to

1740
01:25:45,720 --> 01:25:51,479
Speaker 4: that point, had you done anything to train yourself or

1741
01:25:51,520 --> 01:25:53,920
Speaker 4: school yourself in writing or you were just like, I'm

1742
01:25:53,920 --> 01:25:54,840
Speaker 4: going to write a damn book.

1743
01:25:54,960 --> 01:25:57,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, all that reading that I did, but no, like

1744
01:25:57,560 --> 01:26:00,000
Speaker 5: formal you didn't take any like didn't take a cloist

1745
01:26:00,240 --> 01:26:02,880
Speaker 5: or anything like that. I read On Writing by Stephen King,

1746
01:26:03,000 --> 01:26:06,559
Speaker 5: The Successful Novelist by David Morrell, all those Stephen Hunter

1747
01:26:06,800 --> 01:26:09,160
Speaker 5: books that were out at the time, on creativity. There's

1748
01:26:09,160 --> 01:26:10,800
Speaker 5: more of the mount now, there's maybe three or four

1749
01:26:10,800 --> 01:26:12,960
Speaker 5: of them out then, it's probably seven of them out now.

1750
01:26:14,080 --> 01:26:16,479
Speaker 5: So I read those and then I decided, okay, that's

1751
01:26:16,560 --> 01:26:19,320
Speaker 5: enough because today you can essentially study how to do

1752
01:26:19,400 --> 01:26:23,080
Speaker 5: something forever. You can take multiple online classes, multiple master classes.

1753
01:26:23,160 --> 01:26:25,400
Speaker 5: You can just essentially research until the end of time

1754
01:26:25,680 --> 01:26:28,040
Speaker 5: on the internet. Eventually, if you want to get something done,

1755
01:26:28,040 --> 01:26:28,799
Speaker 5: you have to execute.

1756
01:26:28,920 --> 01:26:31,200
Speaker 4: So oh some people that's just what they do.

1757
01:26:31,479 --> 01:26:33,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's fine, and that's fine. But I was

1758
01:26:33,280 --> 01:26:36,479
Speaker 5: ready to write. But more so and on writing for

1759
01:26:36,520 --> 01:26:38,320
Speaker 5: people that have read it, is more autobiography than on

1760
01:26:38,479 --> 01:26:41,720
Speaker 5: how to book by Stephen King. But I love reading

1761
01:26:41,760 --> 01:26:44,599
Speaker 5: autobiography as by authors, and typically they write them later

1762
01:26:44,840 --> 01:26:46,880
Speaker 5: later in life. There's a few more of them out

1763
01:26:46,920 --> 01:26:48,800
Speaker 5: now that weren't out at the time that I started writing.

1764
01:26:48,840 --> 01:26:50,320
Speaker 5: If they had been, I would have read those as well.

1765
01:26:50,720 --> 01:26:54,200
Speaker 5: But yeah, read those, But luckily I had that foundation

1766
01:26:54,560 --> 01:26:57,720
Speaker 5: already built and then sat down and wrote. But really

1767
01:26:57,760 --> 01:26:59,760
Speaker 5: I started with the title, and this is how it's

1768
01:26:59,760 --> 01:27:02,040
Speaker 5: been for every book thus far. I like to have

1769
01:27:02,120 --> 01:27:04,000
Speaker 5: the title right out of the gate, so I'm not worried,

1770
01:27:04,000 --> 01:27:06,320
Speaker 5: I'm not wasting bandwidth, worried about coming up with a

1771
01:27:06,360 --> 01:27:08,080
Speaker 5: good title. So even if it's a working title, I

1772
01:27:08,200 --> 01:27:10,519
Speaker 5: like to have that down, even if it's going to

1773
01:27:10,600 --> 01:27:12,840
Speaker 5: change eventually. I like to have that not just book six,

1774
01:27:13,000 --> 01:27:16,080
Speaker 5: but a title, a theme that's going to guide the

1775
01:27:16,120 --> 01:27:18,200
Speaker 5: writing process. So each book has a distinctive theme that's

1776
01:27:18,200 --> 01:27:19,839
Speaker 5: just a sentence. And I got that from Stephen Pressfield

1777
01:27:19,880 --> 01:27:23,320
Speaker 5: misinterpretation of something that Stephen Pressfield said on Rogan But

1778
01:27:23,400 --> 01:27:27,560
Speaker 5: I'm glad that I misinterpreted it, and I interpreted it

1779
01:27:27,800 --> 01:27:30,200
Speaker 5: as he would take a yellow sticky next to his

1780
01:27:30,280 --> 01:27:34,120
Speaker 5: typewriter and write a one word theme. So I was like, ah,

1781
01:27:34,360 --> 01:27:38,280
Speaker 5: wonderful revenge, and then I changed that to revenge without constraint.

1782
01:27:38,360 --> 01:27:39,200
Speaker 5: I cheated a little bit.

1783
01:27:39,360 --> 01:27:39,960
Speaker 1: What did he mean?

1784
01:27:40,439 --> 01:27:42,559
Speaker 5: He was telling a story about a playwright in New

1785
01:27:42,680 --> 01:27:45,960
Speaker 5: York who would write a few sentences about a theme

1786
01:27:46,080 --> 01:27:49,599
Speaker 5: that would guide his writing process, and somehow in your

1787
01:27:49,640 --> 01:27:55,000
Speaker 5: head yeah one word, yeah, well done, hurt to be concise? No, no,

1788
01:27:55,120 --> 01:27:57,000
Speaker 5: And now I have the same thing, but it's a

1789
01:27:57,040 --> 01:27:59,439
Speaker 5: little more wordy, not not much, but it's definitely not

1790
01:27:59,479 --> 01:28:02,840
Speaker 5: more than a say. So start with that, and then

1791
01:28:03,160 --> 01:28:06,240
Speaker 5: one page executive summary, and I write that out and

1792
01:28:06,280 --> 01:28:09,800
Speaker 5: then I ask myself two questions. I say, would is

1793
01:28:09,840 --> 01:28:11,240
Speaker 5: this worth a year of my life or a year

1794
01:28:11,240 --> 01:28:13,479
Speaker 5: and a half of my life? And if it's yes,

1795
01:28:13,520 --> 01:28:15,200
Speaker 5: then I ask another question. I say, if someone were

1796
01:28:15,280 --> 01:28:18,599
Speaker 5: to read this like walking through airport, going into Hudson News,

1797
01:28:18,640 --> 01:28:20,560
Speaker 5: pulling the book off and reading the back or the

1798
01:28:20,640 --> 01:28:23,680
Speaker 5: flap jacket, would they be willing to invest time that

1799
01:28:23,720 --> 01:28:26,000
Speaker 5: they're never going to get back in this story. And

1800
01:28:26,120 --> 01:28:28,880
Speaker 5: if the answer to both of those is yes, then boom,

1801
01:28:29,360 --> 01:28:31,200
Speaker 5: I'm all in. And then I take that, turn that

1802
01:28:31,280 --> 01:28:33,479
Speaker 5: into an outline, and then take that outline turn it

1803
01:28:33,520 --> 01:28:35,840
Speaker 5: into a narrative. But what I don't do is get

1804
01:28:36,000 --> 01:28:37,920
Speaker 5: stuck on the outline, because if I get to a

1805
01:28:37,960 --> 01:28:39,800
Speaker 5: place in that outline where I'm like, oh, how he

1806
01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:41,800
Speaker 5: is ever going to get out of this? Is anyone

1807
01:28:41,880 --> 01:28:44,719
Speaker 5: ever going to believe this? This is going to be terrible.

1808
01:28:44,720 --> 01:28:46,519
Speaker 5: I'm never going to figure this out. If I get

1809
01:28:46,560 --> 01:28:48,720
Speaker 5: to that, I just put a bunch of x's and

1810
01:28:48,800 --> 01:28:50,600
Speaker 5: go around it, and I keep writing, knowing that I

1811
01:28:50,640 --> 01:28:52,679
Speaker 5: have a year and a half to figure this out.

1812
01:28:53,240 --> 01:28:56,120
Speaker 5: And on the battlefield, you had seconds to make decisions.

1813
01:28:56,439 --> 01:28:59,599
Speaker 5: Now I have a year a year and a half

1814
01:29:00,200 --> 01:29:00,760
Speaker 5: that first book.

1815
01:29:01,320 --> 01:29:03,920
Speaker 4: Or are you working completely solo or did you have

1816
01:29:04,000 --> 01:29:04,960
Speaker 4: an editor or anyone?

1817
01:29:05,000 --> 01:29:05,120
Speaker 6: Ye?

1818
01:29:05,280 --> 01:29:08,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, so nobody yet. I sent it to twenty people

1819
01:29:08,560 --> 01:29:10,760
Speaker 5: or so maybe twenty five even maybe twenty seven May

1820
01:29:10,880 --> 01:29:13,800
Speaker 5: thirty when it was done, when I thought I got

1821
01:29:13,840 --> 01:29:16,160
Speaker 5: it to the place where I got it to being

1822
01:29:16,160 --> 01:29:18,640
Speaker 5: the best that I could get it, and I told myself, Hey,

1823
01:29:18,720 --> 01:29:21,080
Speaker 5: if one person says comes back and says, hey, I

1824
01:29:21,120 --> 01:29:22,920
Speaker 5: really didn't like this part, this part didn't make sense,

1825
01:29:23,000 --> 01:29:26,240
Speaker 5: you need to do this, I would discount it two three, Yeah,

1826
01:29:26,320 --> 01:29:28,559
Speaker 5: discount those two. But if it was like five, six,

1827
01:29:28,720 --> 01:29:31,360
Speaker 5: seven of those twenty five or thirty people were like,

1828
01:29:31,640 --> 01:29:34,120
Speaker 5: you should think about writing this part again, or I

1829
01:29:34,160 --> 01:29:37,560
Speaker 5: didn't really understand this. Then I've been okay, Roger that,

1830
01:29:38,200 --> 01:29:40,200
Speaker 5: but now I sent it to four people ahead of time.

1831
01:29:40,880 --> 01:29:43,000
Speaker 5: They were part of that original original group, but now

1832
01:29:43,040 --> 01:29:44,720
Speaker 5: it's four and I sent it to them before I

1833
01:29:44,760 --> 01:29:47,519
Speaker 5: send it to my editor, and they give me different

1834
01:29:47,560 --> 01:29:50,280
Speaker 5: things back and there it's all super valuable and they're

1835
01:29:50,320 --> 01:29:52,479
Speaker 5: they're amazing. I thank them and the acknowledgments of my books,

1836
01:29:52,600 --> 01:29:55,120
Speaker 5: and then I make those make those changes or I

1837
01:29:55,160 --> 01:29:58,240
Speaker 5: discard them, and then send it to my editor and

1838
01:29:58,479 --> 01:30:01,479
Speaker 5: so they're so she's getting the best product that me

1839
01:30:01,920 --> 01:30:04,280
Speaker 5: and a little bit of feedback from like a fan base.

1840
01:30:05,080 --> 01:30:07,800
Speaker 5: And three of those four guys are lawyers, so they're

1841
01:30:07,880 --> 01:30:11,720
Speaker 5: good at finding things in written documents, so they're good

1842
01:30:11,720 --> 01:30:13,800
Speaker 5: at finding finding things need to be explained a little

1843
01:30:13,800 --> 01:30:17,240
Speaker 5: more exactly, yeah, exactly, and usually it's fixed with just

1844
01:30:17,280 --> 01:30:19,800
Speaker 5: a sentence here or there. So I do that and

1845
01:30:19,880 --> 01:30:22,000
Speaker 5: then send it to New York and Emily Butler, my

1846
01:30:22,120 --> 01:30:25,759
Speaker 5: editor Simon and Schuster. Emily Butler Books was imprint of Atria,

1847
01:30:26,200 --> 01:30:28,320
Speaker 5: so she has her own imprint and she's amazing, and

1848
01:30:28,360 --> 01:30:30,080
Speaker 5: she's the only person I ever wanted to be my editor.

1849
01:30:30,360 --> 01:30:32,120
Speaker 5: And the reason I found her is that I looked

1850
01:30:32,160 --> 01:30:34,120
Speaker 5: in the back of books people in my genre, and

1851
01:30:34,120 --> 01:30:36,639
Speaker 5: I'm like, why is Vince Flynn thanking this person named

1852
01:30:36,640 --> 01:30:39,200
Speaker 5: Emily Butler? Why is Brad Thor thanking this person named

1853
01:30:39,200 --> 01:30:42,200
Speaker 5: Emily Butler? And I decided, Emily Butsler will be my publisher,

1854
01:30:42,800 --> 01:30:46,400
Speaker 5: so I should probably. Yeah, she didn't know this. She

1855
01:30:46,479 --> 01:30:48,679
Speaker 5: didn't know this yet, she had no idea I existed.

1856
01:30:48,720 --> 01:30:50,400
Speaker 5: And same thing as I started writing. Being a child

1857
01:30:50,479 --> 01:30:52,000
Speaker 5: of the eighties, it only makes sense to pick the

1858
01:30:52,120 --> 01:30:54,080
Speaker 5: star that's going to star in your adaptation of this

1859
01:30:54,120 --> 01:30:56,920
Speaker 5: book that you have a sentence written of. And I thought,

1860
01:30:57,000 --> 01:31:00,639
Speaker 5: you know what, Chris Pratt's the guy and in Guardians

1861
01:31:00,680 --> 01:31:02,840
Speaker 5: of the Galaxy, yet hadn't been in Jurassic World yet.

1862
01:31:03,320 --> 01:31:05,160
Speaker 5: He had a very small role in Zero Dark thirty

1863
01:31:05,160 --> 01:31:07,599
Speaker 5: as a seal, and he was in Parks and Rec.

1864
01:31:07,680 --> 01:31:11,000
Speaker 5: So I saw this transformation from Andy Dwyer in Parks

1865
01:31:11,040 --> 01:31:14,240
Speaker 5: and Rec to this seal operator. And I also thought, Hey,

1866
01:31:14,240 --> 01:31:17,200
Speaker 5: I need someone who's likable on and off screen because

1867
01:31:17,240 --> 01:31:20,360
Speaker 5: this role is going to require an audience to forgive him,

1868
01:31:20,400 --> 01:31:22,160
Speaker 5: possibly for a lot of the things that I'm about

1869
01:31:22,160 --> 01:31:25,200
Speaker 5: to write about. And I thought about Magnum back in

1870
01:31:25,280 --> 01:31:27,719
Speaker 5: the back in the eighties, and I thought everybody loved Magnum,

1871
01:31:28,840 --> 01:31:31,719
Speaker 5: all the all the wives love Magnum, all the dads

1872
01:31:31,760 --> 01:31:35,920
Speaker 5: love Magnum. Everybody loved Magnum because he was funny. You

1873
01:31:35,920 --> 01:31:37,439
Speaker 5: wanted to sit down have a beer with him. He'd

1874
01:31:37,439 --> 01:31:38,880
Speaker 5: sit down and to have beers with his buddies at

1875
01:31:38,880 --> 01:31:41,360
Speaker 5: the King Command Maa club. But then he could flip

1876
01:31:41,439 --> 01:31:43,840
Speaker 5: that switch. And there were episodes. It was the first

1877
01:31:43,880 --> 01:31:49,760
Speaker 5: time that protagonist in in primetime television had killed an

1878
01:31:49,880 --> 01:31:52,760
Speaker 5: unarmed bad guy, and that was in Have You Seen

1879
01:31:52,800 --> 01:31:55,559
Speaker 5: the Sunrise? And yeah, so I love that episode.

1880
01:31:55,600 --> 01:31:58,320
Speaker 1: It's just my dad that I don't remember, So I

1881
01:31:58,320 --> 01:32:03,960
Speaker 1: don't remember. I just remember, like the shirt anything, yeah,

1882
01:32:04,360 --> 01:32:05,320
Speaker 1: very short shorts.

1883
01:32:05,840 --> 01:32:07,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, yep. So I thought about that. I thought, Chris

1884
01:32:07,560 --> 01:32:08,800
Speaker 5: Prats the guy he'll start. And then I'm like, well,

1885
01:32:08,800 --> 01:32:10,799
Speaker 5: I'm choosing my star, might as well choose my director.

1886
01:32:11,000 --> 01:32:13,840
Speaker 5: And I thought Antoine Fuqua. I love everything that that

1887
01:32:13,960 --> 01:32:17,760
Speaker 5: he's done. He's amazing. Training day, training day, incredible with

1888
01:32:17,840 --> 01:32:20,280
Speaker 5: Denzel Washington, of course, and I did shoot her, which

1889
01:32:20,280 --> 01:32:22,960
Speaker 5: is an adaptation of a Point of Impact by Stephen Hunter,

1890
01:32:23,360 --> 01:32:26,680
Speaker 5: and uh like yep uh. Antoine will direct and that's

1891
01:32:26,720 --> 01:32:30,200
Speaker 5: who ended up starring and directing. So it's uh so

1892
01:32:30,320 --> 01:32:33,120
Speaker 5: it worked out, which happens all the time. He lives

1893
01:32:33,160 --> 01:32:36,280
Speaker 5: in Utah, doesn't he Nope, no, he doesn't in California.

1894
01:32:36,360 --> 01:32:39,320
Speaker 5: He's California, but from uh moved around, but from Washington State.

1895
01:32:39,439 --> 01:32:41,360
Speaker 5: But but he's somebody you want to sit down, have

1896
01:32:41,400 --> 01:32:43,680
Speaker 5: coffee with, have a beer with, and just an awesome guy.

1897
01:32:43,680 --> 01:32:45,080
Speaker 5: When he optioned it, he came out to Utah, he

1898
01:32:45,120 --> 01:32:47,439
Speaker 5: spent a week together out in the in the back country,

1899
01:32:47,439 --> 01:32:50,240
Speaker 5: and he's just a solid dude. And being on set

1900
01:32:50,360 --> 01:32:53,760
Speaker 5: with him, you can tell like everybody is happy to

1901
01:32:53,840 --> 01:32:55,760
Speaker 5: be there on that set because he's set in the

1902
01:32:55,800 --> 01:32:58,320
Speaker 5: tone him and Antoine. Antoine's like the commanding officer and

1903
01:32:58,479 --> 01:33:00,599
Speaker 5: Chris is like the troop commander, and they are setting

1904
01:33:00,760 --> 01:33:02,960
Speaker 5: that tone for the entire three hundred and fifty other

1905
01:33:03,040 --> 01:33:05,479
Speaker 5: people on that set. And so many people came up

1906
01:33:05,520 --> 01:33:07,200
Speaker 5: to me that didn't have to to tell me that

1907
01:33:07,240 --> 01:33:09,519
Speaker 5: they'd been on hundreds of Hollywood sets before, whether it

1908
01:33:09,600 --> 01:33:11,599
Speaker 5: was hair and makeup people or stunt people or whoever

1909
01:33:11,640 --> 01:33:14,160
Speaker 5: it was, and they'd say, I've never felt the way

1910
01:33:14,160 --> 01:33:16,479
Speaker 5: I have on this set. But that's all due to

1911
01:33:16,560 --> 01:33:19,920
Speaker 5: Antoine and all due to Chris setting this tone of positivity,

1912
01:33:19,960 --> 01:33:22,760
Speaker 5: and they're mentoring people along and everybody wants to be

1913
01:33:22,840 --> 01:33:24,680
Speaker 5: there doing their best work. But I can see how

1914
01:33:24,680 --> 01:33:25,800
Speaker 5: it would be the opposite too, if you had a

1915
01:33:25,880 --> 01:33:28,120
Speaker 5: crazy director. I can see how that could totally set

1916
01:33:28,160 --> 01:33:30,439
Speaker 5: a negative tone, or had a star though I number

1917
01:33:30,439 --> 01:33:32,320
Speaker 5: one on the call sheet, who was just crazy person,

1918
01:33:32,560 --> 01:33:34,040
Speaker 5: and how that could set the tone and how people

1919
01:33:34,080 --> 01:33:35,479
Speaker 5: would be like, Oh, I can't believe I have to

1920
01:33:35,479 --> 01:33:37,320
Speaker 5: go into work today and work with this crazy person.

1921
01:33:38,120 --> 01:33:39,519
Speaker 5: So we had the opposite of that.

1922
01:33:39,920 --> 01:33:42,759
Speaker 3: It kind of goes back to our earlier conversation about government.

1923
01:33:42,840 --> 01:33:44,439
Speaker 3: It's like, well, why do you put up with those

1924
01:33:44,520 --> 01:33:45,959
Speaker 3: people in Hollywood?

1925
01:33:46,080 --> 01:33:49,960
Speaker 5: Yeah? I guess these they're employing so many people, I guess.

1926
01:33:50,280 --> 01:33:51,720
Speaker 5: But it doesn't have to be that way. You get

1927
01:33:51,760 --> 01:33:53,799
Speaker 5: to choose, and Antoine and Chris choose to be positive

1928
01:33:53,800 --> 01:33:56,799
Speaker 5: and choose to be encouraging and choose to mentor people along.

1929
01:33:56,960 --> 01:34:01,120
Speaker 5: And it's just really cool to see that. And again

1930
01:34:01,240 --> 01:34:03,400
Speaker 5: the only reason that came to be is because of

1931
01:34:03,479 --> 01:34:06,759
Speaker 5: a good buddy, Jared Shaw, who in the Seal teams

1932
01:34:07,000 --> 01:34:10,000
Speaker 5: was getting out and it was when I was at

1933
01:34:10,040 --> 01:34:12,120
Speaker 5: BUDS and I said, hell, hey, you're getting out. Oh,

1934
01:34:12,200 --> 01:34:14,280
Speaker 5: come come see me in my office at some point

1935
01:34:14,360 --> 01:34:15,840
Speaker 5: and just let me know what your plans are and

1936
01:34:16,160 --> 01:34:17,719
Speaker 5: let me know if I can can help you in anyway.

1937
01:34:17,840 --> 01:34:20,400
Speaker 5: So we sat down and talked, and I introduced him

1938
01:34:20,400 --> 01:34:21,920
Speaker 5: to some people in the private sector in the industry

1939
01:34:21,960 --> 01:34:24,000
Speaker 5: he wanted to get into, and followed up with him,

1940
01:34:24,040 --> 01:34:26,400
Speaker 5: and then I forgot all about it. And then five

1941
01:34:26,479 --> 01:34:29,439
Speaker 5: years later, about six months before my first book comes out,

1942
01:34:29,720 --> 01:34:31,960
Speaker 5: he calls and I hadn't talked to him in years,

1943
01:34:32,280 --> 01:34:34,680
Speaker 5: and he says, hey, do you remember me? And I said, yeah,

1944
01:34:34,720 --> 01:34:36,920
Speaker 5: of course, Jared, how are you? And he said, hey, man,

1945
01:34:36,920 --> 01:34:38,160
Speaker 5: I always wanted to call and thank you for what

1946
01:34:38,240 --> 01:34:40,400
Speaker 5: you did for me. The Seal teams, nobody else sat

1947
01:34:40,439 --> 01:34:41,800
Speaker 5: me down in their office. No one talked to me

1948
01:34:41,840 --> 01:34:43,880
Speaker 5: about transitioning out. No one introduced me to people in

1949
01:34:43,920 --> 01:34:45,920
Speaker 5: the private sector, no one followed up with me. I

1950
01:34:46,080 --> 01:34:48,799
Speaker 5: was just kind of brushed aside by senior level leadership.

1951
01:34:48,800 --> 01:34:50,800
Speaker 5: When I told him I was getting out, and I

1952
01:34:50,920 --> 01:34:53,200
Speaker 5: was like, oh, man, hey, my pleasure. How's it going.

1953
01:34:53,560 --> 01:34:56,479
Speaker 5: You know, how do everything work out? And he said

1954
01:34:56,680 --> 01:34:59,040
Speaker 5: everything's great, But I heard you have a book coming out,

1955
01:34:59,280 --> 01:35:00,640
Speaker 5: and I said, yep, come out a few months. I

1956
01:35:00,640 --> 01:35:02,280
Speaker 5: can send you a gally copy, which is like a

1957
01:35:02,560 --> 01:35:04,120
Speaker 5: I just learned what a gally copy was like a

1958
01:35:04,160 --> 01:35:06,720
Speaker 5: week earlier. It's like a rough draft, and I can

1959
01:35:06,760 --> 01:35:08,160
Speaker 5: send that to you if you'd like. And he said, yeah,

1960
01:35:08,160 --> 01:35:09,680
Speaker 5: I like that, but I'd like to give it to

1961
01:35:09,720 --> 01:35:11,920
Speaker 5: a friend of mine. And I said, who's that and

1962
01:35:12,040 --> 01:35:15,439
Speaker 5: he said Chris Pratt, Like, oh, that's convenient for me.

1963
01:35:16,680 --> 01:35:18,839
Speaker 5: So I sent it to Jared. He read it in November.

1964
01:35:18,880 --> 01:35:20,439
Speaker 5: He gave it to Chris in December. Chris read it

1965
01:35:20,479 --> 01:35:22,559
Speaker 5: in the at the end of December and then called

1966
01:35:22,560 --> 01:35:25,560
Speaker 5: a week later, want an option it? So yeah, do

1967
01:35:25,720 --> 01:35:26,040
Speaker 5: you have.

1968
01:35:27,840 --> 01:35:32,400
Speaker 3: People who are non like acronym pros that read your

1969
01:35:33,120 --> 01:35:35,559
Speaker 3: early drafts and kind of go be like, I don't

1970
01:35:35,600 --> 01:35:38,960
Speaker 3: know about this? Or do people just get on board

1971
01:35:39,240 --> 01:35:43,040
Speaker 3: with the vernacular so fast? And that's my assumption as

1972
01:35:43,120 --> 01:35:47,200
Speaker 3: people they do, They just like snap into those It's something.

1973
01:35:47,040 --> 01:35:49,559
Speaker 5: As you can tell from the context, like I pulled

1974
01:35:49,600 --> 01:35:51,120
Speaker 5: down my nods and now I can see it night

1975
01:35:51,160 --> 01:35:53,200
Speaker 5: type of thing. You're like, yo, a nod must be

1976
01:35:53,240 --> 01:35:54,760
Speaker 5: some sort of a night vision type of a thing.

1977
01:35:55,360 --> 01:35:56,960
Speaker 5: So a lot of times some context you can get it,

1978
01:35:57,000 --> 01:35:59,240
Speaker 5: but my editor will say, hey, can you describe what

1979
01:35:59,320 --> 01:36:01,080
Speaker 5: this is? Then I'll just put like little parentheses and

1980
01:36:01,160 --> 01:36:03,360
Speaker 5: say what it is. But I also brought back I

1981
01:36:03,400 --> 01:36:04,800
Speaker 5: don't know if I brought it back. I shouldn't say that,

1982
01:36:04,840 --> 01:36:07,160
Speaker 5: but I thought of it as bringing it back because

1983
01:36:07,240 --> 01:36:10,519
Speaker 5: before the Internet, glossaries in the back of books in

1984
01:36:10,520 --> 01:36:12,240
Speaker 5: the eighties were so much fun for me to go through,

1985
01:36:12,280 --> 01:36:15,360
Speaker 5: and I could go through the extra were I was like, Oh,

1986
01:36:15,400 --> 01:36:17,200
Speaker 5: this is so awesome. So I wanted to bring that

1987
01:36:17,320 --> 01:36:17,920
Speaker 5: back the book.

1988
01:36:18,000 --> 01:36:19,360
Speaker 3: It was just like an extra thing.

1989
01:36:20,000 --> 01:36:21,240
Speaker 5: So I put the glossary in the back. And some

1990
01:36:21,320 --> 01:36:23,360
Speaker 5: things are funny. I put some some funny things in there,

1991
01:36:23,400 --> 01:36:26,519
Speaker 5: and some things are actual definitions. But so I put

1992
01:36:26,560 --> 01:36:28,519
Speaker 5: that in the back for anybody that needs help with

1993
01:36:28,560 --> 01:36:31,200
Speaker 5: the acronyms. But otherwise you can pretty much get it,

1994
01:36:31,360 --> 01:36:34,920
Speaker 5: and you know, if not, maybe's not the book for you.

1995
01:36:35,600 --> 01:36:36,360
Speaker 5: You know, I don't know.

1996
01:36:36,880 --> 01:36:40,400
Speaker 3: I mean I think once people get into a story, yeah,

1997
01:36:40,760 --> 01:36:43,799
Speaker 3: it also is like it's just like language.

1998
01:36:43,840 --> 01:36:46,080
Speaker 5: Some people are like, oh cool, what is this? You

1999
01:36:46,120 --> 01:36:47,360
Speaker 5: can look it up? And now you can look it up.

2000
01:36:47,520 --> 01:36:48,920
Speaker 5: You know, you don't have to go to the labor anymore,

2001
01:36:49,439 --> 01:36:51,519
Speaker 5: you can like look it up like oh that's so cool, Okay,

2002
01:36:51,600 --> 01:36:53,720
Speaker 5: got it. But I try to describe at least what

2003
01:36:53,840 --> 01:36:56,120
Speaker 5: it is. But sometimes I do. Sometimes I'm just everybody

2004
01:36:56,200 --> 01:36:57,400
Speaker 5: knows what it not is now. Everybody knows what an

2005
01:36:57,400 --> 01:37:00,080
Speaker 5: idea is now after twenty years at war, but I

2006
01:37:00,160 --> 01:37:02,200
Speaker 5: might have to spell it out, improvise explosive device or

2007
01:37:02,439 --> 01:37:05,519
Speaker 5: explosively form penetrator or whatever it might might be. So

2008
01:37:06,200 --> 01:37:08,200
Speaker 5: so sometimes I make assumptions that that people are only

2009
01:37:08,240 --> 01:37:10,960
Speaker 5: to understand, and then I go back and I'll add

2010
01:37:11,000 --> 01:37:13,320
Speaker 5: a little something to describe what that means, because they

2011
01:37:13,360 --> 01:37:14,880
Speaker 5: are a little acronym heavy at times.

2012
01:37:15,320 --> 01:37:19,120
Speaker 3: Well I mean that's an acronym heavy profession. Like you

2013
01:37:19,240 --> 01:37:21,800
Speaker 3: listen to a group of you guys getting together.

2014
01:37:21,760 --> 01:37:22,759
Speaker 5: Like what language are they speaking?

2015
01:37:24,880 --> 01:37:29,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I find that certain conservation meetings similar like that

2016
01:37:30,160 --> 01:37:34,920
Speaker 1: with the departments and then the package of the Yeah,

2017
01:37:35,200 --> 01:37:37,960
Speaker 1: it's just like yeah, absolutely, But you know, I'd say.

2018
01:37:37,960 --> 01:37:38,040
Speaker 5: I.

2019
01:37:40,040 --> 01:37:44,080
Speaker 3: Mediated a panel at Pheasants Forever this year and it

2020
01:37:44,240 --> 01:37:49,160
Speaker 3: was the it was the governance the governance board for

2021
01:37:49,800 --> 01:37:53,400
Speaker 3: p f q F, you know, an open forum. We're

2022
01:37:53,400 --> 01:37:57,040
Speaker 3: talking about the farm bill. And I kept asking the

2023
01:37:57,439 --> 01:38:00,280
Speaker 3: questions and they kind of pause, and I was like,

2024
01:38:00,320 --> 01:38:02,240
Speaker 3: what is going on with this group? And then they

2025
01:38:02,320 --> 01:38:04,880
Speaker 3: told me ended up telling the whole crowd that they

2026
01:38:04,960 --> 01:38:09,000
Speaker 3: had a bet between the three of them that basically,

2027
01:38:09,080 --> 01:38:10,800
Speaker 3: if you used an acronym, you had to buy the

2028
01:38:10,840 --> 01:38:13,400
Speaker 3: other two a beer. Oh that's rough, because they were

2029
01:38:13,479 --> 01:38:16,960
Speaker 3: trying so hard to make it user friendly, make the

2030
01:38:17,000 --> 01:38:20,960
Speaker 3: whole conversation user friendly, and there was a lot of failures. Oh,

2031
01:38:21,080 --> 01:38:22,880
Speaker 3: a lot of failures. Yeah, it was tough.

2032
01:38:23,080 --> 01:38:24,439
Speaker 5: That was the thing I knew i'd get right in

2033
01:38:24,520 --> 01:38:27,200
Speaker 5: the books, was like the acronyms and describing snapper weapons

2034
01:38:27,240 --> 01:38:28,559
Speaker 5: systems and that sort of a thing.

2035
01:38:28,680 --> 01:38:30,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a cool factor of that stuff in

2036
01:38:30,680 --> 01:38:32,720
Speaker 1: a way that there's not around then, the way there's

2037
01:38:32,760 --> 01:38:34,200
Speaker 1: not around federal policy.

2038
01:38:34,600 --> 01:38:36,280
Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, you might have to work a little harder

2039
01:38:36,280 --> 01:38:38,679
Speaker 5: at the federal policy because you could do it. But yeah,

2040
01:38:38,680 --> 01:38:41,040
Speaker 5: it may be a little harder. But I knew i'd

2041
01:38:41,040 --> 01:38:43,400
Speaker 5: get that stuff. And what I didn't realize was how

2042
01:38:43,479 --> 01:38:45,720
Speaker 5: much of the feelings and emotions behind what I've done

2043
01:38:45,720 --> 01:38:48,400
Speaker 5: down range would make it in to the novel and

2044
01:38:48,479 --> 01:38:50,640
Speaker 5: now novels. But in that first one, even through that

2045
01:38:50,760 --> 01:38:53,559
Speaker 5: whole process I just talked about. Until I started turning

2046
01:38:53,600 --> 01:38:56,240
Speaker 5: that outline into the narrative, I still didn't really think

2047
01:38:56,360 --> 01:39:00,080
Speaker 5: about those feelings and emotions weaving their way in to

2048
01:39:00,160 --> 01:39:03,000
Speaker 5: the storyline. But as soon as I started changing that

2049
01:39:03,240 --> 01:39:06,680
Speaker 5: outline into the narrative, it was very apparent right off

2050
01:39:06,720 --> 01:39:08,759
Speaker 5: the bat that this was going to be an extremely

2051
01:39:08,840 --> 01:39:12,320
Speaker 5: personal writing experience, because I'm going to be describing taking

2052
01:39:12,360 --> 01:39:15,280
Speaker 5: the feelings behind things that happened downrange and applying them

2053
01:39:15,320 --> 01:39:18,680
Speaker 5: to this completely fictional narrative. So if my character gets

2054
01:39:18,720 --> 01:39:21,400
Speaker 5: ambushed in Los Angeles, California, I go back and remember

2055
01:39:21,439 --> 01:39:23,200
Speaker 5: what was like to get ambushed in Baghdad in two

2056
01:39:23,200 --> 01:39:25,240
Speaker 5: thousand and six, and then I take those feelings and

2057
01:39:25,320 --> 01:39:28,599
Speaker 5: emotions and I apply them to my protagonist in Los Angeles,

2058
01:39:28,680 --> 01:39:31,439
Speaker 5: California in present day. Same thing with the sniper stuff.

2059
01:39:31,439 --> 01:39:32,920
Speaker 5: I don't have to go seek out a sniper out

2060
01:39:32,960 --> 01:39:35,000
Speaker 5: there and find a guy who was in Remady at

2061
01:39:35,000 --> 01:39:36,280
Speaker 5: the height of the war and say, hey, what was

2062
01:39:36,320 --> 01:39:38,640
Speaker 5: it like to set up and pull that trigger? And

2063
01:39:39,040 --> 01:39:42,360
Speaker 5: then if I'm taking notes, I'm comparing his answers with

2064
01:39:42,800 --> 01:39:44,720
Speaker 5: someone else. I might have interviewed another book, I might

2065
01:39:44,760 --> 01:39:47,439
Speaker 5: have read another interview I saw on TV another book

2066
01:39:47,479 --> 01:39:49,720
Speaker 5: I might have read fiction or non movies that I've

2067
01:39:49,800 --> 01:39:52,599
Speaker 5: seen biases, I have whatever filters I have in place,

2068
01:39:52,880 --> 01:39:55,439
Speaker 5: and then putting it onto the page into my story.

2069
01:39:55,680 --> 01:39:57,960
Speaker 5: It all comes right from my heart and soul directly.

2070
01:39:58,040 --> 01:40:00,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's no substitute for a first person. Yeah right,

2071
01:40:00,920 --> 01:40:03,400
Speaker 3: It's like, because we have so much input coming in

2072
01:40:03,520 --> 01:40:06,800
Speaker 3: all the time. Yeah, it's kind of impossible to block

2073
01:40:06,840 --> 01:40:08,000
Speaker 3: that stuff out after a while.

2074
01:40:08,040 --> 01:40:09,479
Speaker 5: And I really think that's what stood out to Simon

2075
01:40:09,520 --> 01:40:11,479
Speaker 5: and Schuster because they see thousands of these things every

2076
01:40:11,520 --> 01:40:13,760
Speaker 5: year come across their desks, and I think that's what

2077
01:40:13,840 --> 01:40:15,960
Speaker 5: made stand out. With those feelings and emotions, that's what

2078
01:40:16,040 --> 01:40:18,000
Speaker 5: made it different from some of the other books out

2079
01:40:18,040 --> 01:40:20,720
Speaker 5: there that they had read, and why they decided to

2080
01:40:21,080 --> 01:40:23,519
Speaker 5: publish me, which is humbling.

2081
01:40:24,400 --> 01:40:27,120
Speaker 1: Uh T de late people on your next book, Only

2082
01:40:27,200 --> 01:40:27,479
Speaker 1: the Dead.

2083
01:40:27,560 --> 01:40:30,800
Speaker 5: So it's sixth novel in the James Reese series and

2084
01:40:31,680 --> 01:40:34,960
Speaker 5: it's the most brutal to date, which is saying it

2085
01:40:35,120 --> 01:40:37,479
Speaker 5: is the most brutal to date. And I didn't start

2086
01:40:37,479 --> 01:40:39,080
Speaker 5: out that way. I didn't say, all right, I'm gonna

2087
01:40:39,120 --> 01:40:40,880
Speaker 5: write the most brutal one. Now it's just kind of

2088
01:40:40,960 --> 01:40:44,040
Speaker 5: naturally happened that way. But yeah, that one comes out

2089
01:40:44,080 --> 01:40:44,960
Speaker 5: May sixteenth, And.

2090
01:40:45,640 --> 01:40:48,679
Speaker 1: Give the base, just give the basic, give the basic gist.

2091
01:40:48,840 --> 01:40:52,400
Speaker 5: There are some unanswered questions from my last novel, so

2092
01:40:52,520 --> 01:40:53,920
Speaker 5: for those who have read it, they'll know what I'm

2093
01:40:54,160 --> 01:40:56,920
Speaker 5: what I am talking about here. But really it's a

2094
01:40:57,080 --> 01:41:00,639
Speaker 5: novel of truth and consequences. That's the theme to this one,

2095
01:41:01,680 --> 01:41:04,400
Speaker 5: and in my novels James Reese he holds those people

2096
01:41:04,439 --> 01:41:06,599
Speaker 5: that we talked about earlier accountable those people that don't.

2097
01:41:06,640 --> 01:41:08,479
Speaker 5: You can't really hold accountable in real life because if

2098
01:41:08,520 --> 01:41:10,160
Speaker 5: you do, you'll go to jail for doing the things

2099
01:41:10,200 --> 01:41:13,719
Speaker 5: that my character you'll probably be executed in many states.

2100
01:41:14,760 --> 01:41:17,120
Speaker 5: But you can do it through fiction. You can do

2101
01:41:17,240 --> 01:41:21,120
Speaker 5: it in a thriller, which is very therapeutic to write

2102
01:41:21,160 --> 01:41:24,840
Speaker 5: and hopefully to read for some of us. But it's

2103
01:41:24,920 --> 01:41:28,679
Speaker 5: him uncovering a lot of his past and his father's past.

2104
01:41:28,960 --> 01:41:32,000
Speaker 5: Then all connects in present day in a of course,

2105
01:41:32,040 --> 01:41:34,680
Speaker 5: a conspiracy. I love a good conspiracy, especially in the

2106
01:41:34,720 --> 01:41:36,840
Speaker 5: pages of my novels. That's what I loved about some

2107
01:41:36,880 --> 01:41:38,840
Speaker 5: of the books I read growing up was the conspiratorial

2108
01:41:38,840 --> 01:41:40,640
Speaker 5: element to them. So I try to weave that in

2109
01:41:41,000 --> 01:41:44,720
Speaker 5: to my novels as well. So he tends to a

2110
01:41:44,880 --> 01:41:48,320
Speaker 5: he's a thinking man, but he also is someone very

2111
01:41:48,320 --> 01:41:52,120
Speaker 5: comfortable with violence because it's just a natural part of

2112
01:41:52,160 --> 01:41:55,760
Speaker 5: his life, and some people need to be dealt with

2113
01:41:55,880 --> 01:41:57,160
Speaker 5: in a very harsh way in this book.

2114
01:41:57,240 --> 01:41:59,599
Speaker 1: So when you mentioned therapeutic, I'm at, yeah, you get

2115
01:41:59,680 --> 01:42:02,200
Speaker 1: to be as the author, you get to be judged

2116
01:42:02,280 --> 01:42:03,200
Speaker 1: jury and execution.

2117
01:42:03,479 --> 01:42:04,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, oh yeah, it's fantastic.

2118
01:42:05,439 --> 01:42:05,799
Speaker 1: Guilty.

2119
01:42:06,680 --> 01:42:10,880
Speaker 5: It was so different about writing screenplays versus this is

2120
01:42:10,920 --> 01:42:12,120
Speaker 5: that I can do anything. I don't have to worry

2121
01:42:12,120 --> 01:42:13,640
Speaker 5: about the cost of a set piece. I don't have

2122
01:42:13,680 --> 01:42:16,160
Speaker 5: to worry about flying them to Siberia or down to

2123
01:42:16,240 --> 01:42:19,400
Speaker 5: South America, up to Alaska wherever. I can just do it.

2124
01:42:19,600 --> 01:42:22,639
Speaker 5: There's no no problem. I can have huge set action

2125
01:42:22,760 --> 01:42:24,519
Speaker 5: set pieces, and I have to worry about the cost.

2126
01:42:25,080 --> 01:42:27,000
Speaker 5: Now when you get talked to start talking to Amazon

2127
01:42:27,120 --> 01:42:29,600
Speaker 5: and start breaking things down where you're gonna film and

2128
01:42:29,640 --> 01:42:31,519
Speaker 5: what these set pieces are gonna cost, Well, now you

2129
01:42:31,600 --> 01:42:34,280
Speaker 5: have to factor that in. You can't just directly take

2130
01:42:34,320 --> 01:42:36,599
Speaker 5: what you have on the page and transferred over onto

2131
01:42:36,640 --> 01:42:39,000
Speaker 5: the screen because there are there costs involved to a

2132
01:42:39,080 --> 01:42:40,439
Speaker 5: lot of that. So you have to work through some

2133
01:42:40,520 --> 01:42:42,840
Speaker 5: of that. But I love the freedom to be able

2134
01:42:43,040 --> 01:42:45,400
Speaker 5: to do anything that I want on that page, and

2135
01:42:46,040 --> 01:42:47,160
Speaker 5: I didn't know how it was gonna be. When I

2136
01:42:47,160 --> 01:42:48,840
Speaker 5: got into this. I thought, as Simon and Schuster might

2137
01:42:48,880 --> 01:42:51,360
Speaker 5: ask me to kind of take you really need to

2138
01:42:51,360 --> 01:42:52,720
Speaker 5: have all that hunting stuff in there? Or does it

2139
01:42:52,760 --> 01:42:54,760
Speaker 5: need to be so violent or do you really need

2140
01:42:54,800 --> 01:42:57,480
Speaker 5: to mention this about concealed carry in here? It seems unnecessary.

2141
01:42:57,600 --> 01:42:59,960
Speaker 5: Can you? Never have they even hinted that I need

2142
01:43:00,120 --> 01:43:01,519
Speaker 5: to take any of that out. It's been one hundred

2143
01:43:01,520 --> 01:43:05,680
Speaker 5: percent creative control the entire time, which is which I love.

2144
01:43:06,280 --> 01:43:08,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, little bits of political.

2145
01:43:09,240 --> 01:43:12,799
Speaker 5: In there, yeah, yeah, yeah, But a lot of authors don't,

2146
01:43:13,160 --> 01:43:17,680
Speaker 5: and you know, I didn't. Really you don't really get

2147
01:43:17,720 --> 01:43:20,280
Speaker 5: to know them those characters in the same way as

2148
01:43:20,320 --> 01:43:23,519
Speaker 5: you do from authors that give you a glimpse into

2149
01:43:23,640 --> 01:43:26,280
Speaker 5: their protagonist through how he feels about certain things. So

2150
01:43:26,479 --> 01:43:30,439
Speaker 5: my character is carrying a pistol in Washington, d C.

2151
01:43:30,720 --> 01:43:32,519
Speaker 5: He's not just carrying a pistol in Washington, d C.

2152
01:43:32,880 --> 01:43:34,800
Speaker 5: He has to think about the consequences of getting cut.

2153
01:43:35,360 --> 01:43:36,040
Speaker 1: Warren's coming.

2154
01:43:36,520 --> 01:43:39,519
Speaker 5: Yes, because if I'm doing that, or if I if

2155
01:43:39,600 --> 01:43:41,880
Speaker 5: I was to do that, I would need to. I

2156
01:43:41,920 --> 01:43:44,960
Speaker 5: would think about it and realize, Okay, here's the consequences

2157
01:43:45,080 --> 01:43:47,600
Speaker 5: to doing this. So my character does as well, and

2158
01:43:47,680 --> 01:43:49,960
Speaker 5: he has thoughts on it. But a lot of authors

2159
01:43:50,000 --> 01:43:51,960
Speaker 5: don't do that, but but I do, and I feel

2160
01:43:51,960 --> 01:43:55,479
Speaker 5: it gives people greater insight into his character. And because

2161
01:43:55,800 --> 01:43:57,320
Speaker 5: you're going to think about it. If you're doing something

2162
01:43:57,360 --> 01:43:59,519
Speaker 5: like that, you're thinking about rules and regulations as we

2163
01:43:59,600 --> 01:44:01,519
Speaker 5: head into the field, and these different states and things

2164
01:44:01,560 --> 01:44:03,200
Speaker 5: that are you can do in some one state you

2165
01:44:03,240 --> 01:44:05,439
Speaker 5: can't do in another. And I mean, you're gonna follow

2166
01:44:05,479 --> 01:44:08,519
Speaker 5: the follow those rules. You're not gonna not think about it.

2167
01:44:08,680 --> 01:44:09,840
Speaker 5: And just all of a sudden, if I was a

2168
01:44:09,880 --> 01:44:12,200
Speaker 5: writer talking about hunting and I'm putting them in the

2169
01:44:12,240 --> 01:44:14,840
Speaker 5: springtime in somewhere else, and I have him going deer

2170
01:44:14,920 --> 01:44:16,680
Speaker 5: hunting in a state where you can't do that in

2171
01:44:16,800 --> 01:44:19,400
Speaker 5: that area in the springtime or whatever whatever it is,

2172
01:44:20,200 --> 01:44:22,880
Speaker 5: you're gonna lose that hunting audience. And you're like, if

2173
01:44:22,920 --> 01:44:24,400
Speaker 5: he's doing that, he should at least be thinking about it,

2174
01:44:24,520 --> 01:44:26,640
Speaker 5: he should least be thinking about why he's poaching, and

2175
01:44:26,720 --> 01:44:29,360
Speaker 5: it should make sense for the story. But a lot

2176
01:44:29,400 --> 01:44:30,920
Speaker 5: of times you don't. You don't get that, so I

2177
01:44:31,000 --> 01:44:33,439
Speaker 5: try to give the give what I'd be thinking in

2178
01:44:33,479 --> 01:44:34,480
Speaker 5: a lot of these situations.

2179
01:44:34,680 --> 01:44:35,880
Speaker 1: Do you read Box?

2180
01:44:36,200 --> 01:44:38,240
Speaker 5: I have read CJ. Box, not all of them, because

2181
01:44:38,240 --> 01:44:40,360
Speaker 5: he's a lot of books out there and he's amazing.

2182
01:44:40,479 --> 01:44:43,960
Speaker 5: Oh my goodness, yeah, yeah, very good, very very interesting

2183
01:44:44,600 --> 01:44:45,719
Speaker 5: writer and very popular.

2184
01:44:46,080 --> 01:44:48,559
Speaker 1: Is h a lot of hunting in there?

2185
01:44:48,600 --> 01:44:48,760
Speaker 6: You know?

2186
01:44:49,240 --> 01:44:51,000
Speaker 4: Is this character going to be around for a while?

2187
01:44:51,080 --> 01:44:53,840
Speaker 4: Are you getting the antsy to explore a different character.

2188
01:44:54,200 --> 01:44:54,439
Speaker 1: Nope.

2189
01:44:54,479 --> 01:44:57,120
Speaker 5: I feel so fortunate that a readership and audience is

2190
01:44:57,160 --> 01:45:00,400
Speaker 5: connected with this character. Uh So the first one, as

2191
01:45:00,400 --> 01:45:02,120
Speaker 5: you're writing it, people don't know. They think it could

2192
01:45:02,120 --> 01:45:03,960
Speaker 5: be just a one off book. So your first one

2193
01:45:04,280 --> 01:45:06,320
Speaker 5: as people are reading it now, people find that first

2194
01:45:06,360 --> 01:45:09,519
Speaker 5: book today they or watched the show first, they realize, oh,

2195
01:45:09,920 --> 01:45:12,040
Speaker 5: or even if they haven't seen the show, they realize, oh,

2196
01:45:12,080 --> 01:45:13,840
Speaker 5: there's four other books, five other books out there. He's

2197
01:45:13,840 --> 01:45:17,640
Speaker 5: probably gonna survived exactly. Yeah, he's gonna shake it off.

2198
01:45:17,920 --> 01:45:21,160
Speaker 5: He's gonna shake that thing right off. But the first one.

2199
01:45:21,200 --> 01:45:22,840
Speaker 5: That's why the first one is so fun, because if

2200
01:45:22,840 --> 01:45:25,360
Speaker 5: you're reading that and don't know that it can continue,

2201
01:45:25,479 --> 01:45:27,080
Speaker 5: then you and the way that I end that one.

2202
01:45:27,120 --> 01:45:29,400
Speaker 5: I kind of leave it up in the air. It's

2203
01:45:30,160 --> 01:45:31,880
Speaker 5: it's interesting, but now that they're out there, you kind

2204
01:45:31,920 --> 01:45:32,400
Speaker 5: of know that it's going.

2205
01:45:32,800 --> 01:45:35,280
Speaker 4: It's a serious just wondering if this guy had a

2206
01:45:35,360 --> 01:45:37,280
Speaker 4: life span yet or if he's gonna be around for

2207
01:45:37,320 --> 01:45:37,599
Speaker 4: a while.

2208
01:45:37,640 --> 01:45:39,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think around for a while. It's I've for

2209
01:45:39,640 --> 01:45:41,840
Speaker 5: other authors talk about how they you know, they kind

2210
01:45:41,840 --> 01:45:44,040
Speaker 5: of get connected to their character and they're not thinkfully

2211
01:45:44,080 --> 01:45:46,400
Speaker 5: aren't allowed to do anything else, almost, But I don't

2212
01:45:46,400 --> 01:45:48,439
Speaker 5: feel that way. Love. I just feel so fortunate.

2213
01:45:48,479 --> 01:45:52,360
Speaker 1: So the twentieth book will be like kicking it and relax, Yeah, we.

2214
01:45:52,400 --> 01:45:55,120
Speaker 3: Get to that twentieth book, or I kind of think

2215
01:45:55,120 --> 01:45:58,240
Speaker 3: about it in terms of Indiana Jones, Right, there's a

2216
01:45:58,320 --> 01:46:01,280
Speaker 3: lot there's a lot crossover there, Like people are like,

2217
01:46:01,400 --> 01:46:04,519
Speaker 3: oh yeah, and he can go back in his story

2218
01:46:04,520 --> 01:46:08,040
Speaker 3: and go forward in a story and he has that longevity, right,

2219
01:46:08,479 --> 01:46:10,240
Speaker 3: And there's a lot of those Yeah.

2220
01:46:10,600 --> 01:46:13,640
Speaker 1: Well, I mean I'm familiar with the main one, but

2221
01:46:13,720 --> 01:46:15,000
Speaker 1: I didn't know that there was a lot to it.

2222
01:46:15,560 --> 01:46:19,680
Speaker 3: Well in every it's like dad son, Oh yeah, you know,

2223
01:46:20,000 --> 01:46:21,200
Speaker 3: it's like there's a lot there.

2224
01:46:21,360 --> 01:46:23,599
Speaker 5: I very intentionally wrote things into the novels that I'd

2225
01:46:23,600 --> 01:46:27,320
Speaker 5: be able to explore later different families. Explore the Hastings

2226
01:46:27,360 --> 01:46:28,760
Speaker 5: family in Africa. A lot of people want me to

2227
01:46:29,080 --> 01:46:33,280
Speaker 5: do that, and I explore the Salut Scouts and all that,

2228
01:46:33,479 --> 01:46:36,240
Speaker 5: So that'll be something I'm looking at doing in the future.

2229
01:46:36,600 --> 01:46:40,000
Speaker 5: James Reese's dad in Vietnam, his transition from seal into

2230
01:46:40,040 --> 01:46:42,559
Speaker 5: the CIA back in the seventies, so there's a lot

2231
01:46:42,600 --> 01:46:44,920
Speaker 5: to explore there into the eighties. What did he do

2232
01:46:44,960 --> 01:46:47,360
Speaker 5: in the eighties, So I and his grand grandfather's on

2233
01:46:47,439 --> 01:46:50,360
Speaker 5: both sides, So I throw that stuff in there too,

2234
01:46:50,920 --> 01:46:52,680
Speaker 5: sometimes with the history of the firearms that they use

2235
01:46:52,760 --> 01:46:54,600
Speaker 5: that have been passed down. So I put all that

2236
01:46:54,640 --> 01:46:57,720
Speaker 5: stuff in there very intentionally so that I can I

2237
01:46:57,800 --> 01:47:00,559
Speaker 5: can go back and also it gone a little interest

2238
01:47:00,560 --> 01:47:01,160
Speaker 5: ahead of time.

2239
01:47:01,240 --> 01:47:03,160
Speaker 3: And you can turn it into a family business. You

2240
01:47:03,160 --> 01:47:06,479
Speaker 3: can get those kids get back on the on.

2241
01:47:06,640 --> 01:47:09,840
Speaker 5: The computers and be like, listen, some people have yeah,

2242
01:47:09,880 --> 01:47:12,760
Speaker 5: Clive Custler, his son, Dirt Custler, Stephen to.

2243
01:47:14,040 --> 01:47:16,240
Speaker 1: Leave them all those executive summ reasons.

2244
01:47:16,240 --> 01:47:17,360
Speaker 5: There you go here they are.

2245
01:47:17,560 --> 01:47:17,760
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2246
01:47:18,160 --> 01:47:19,479
Speaker 5: So yeah, there's like there's a couple of people have

2247
01:47:19,520 --> 01:47:21,080
Speaker 5: done that. Nelson de mill Is working on his second

2248
01:47:21,080 --> 01:47:24,320
Speaker 5: book with his uh, his son, So that has that

2249
01:47:24,439 --> 01:47:27,200
Speaker 5: has happened, that has that has been a thing. But yeah,

2250
01:47:27,280 --> 01:47:29,400
Speaker 5: I just feel fortunate that it's connected and people are

2251
01:47:29,439 --> 01:47:32,320
Speaker 5: reading these things and want more and and now there's

2252
01:47:32,439 --> 01:47:35,559
Speaker 5: and there's a responsibility also because uh, people are trusting

2253
01:47:35,600 --> 01:47:37,280
Speaker 5: me with this time that they're never going to get back.

2254
01:47:37,400 --> 01:47:40,160
Speaker 5: So whether it's a Instagram post or a blog post,

2255
01:47:40,560 --> 01:47:42,840
Speaker 5: that those sentences get as much thought as any sentence

2256
01:47:42,880 --> 01:47:44,880
Speaker 5: in my novel. Because people are trusting me with my

2257
01:47:45,000 --> 01:47:47,839
Speaker 5: time there on the social channels as well on those blogs,

2258
01:47:47,880 --> 01:47:50,639
Speaker 5: on my podcast, whatever it might be, they're never getting

2259
01:47:50,680 --> 01:47:51,639
Speaker 5: that getting that back.

2260
01:47:51,760 --> 01:47:54,280
Speaker 3: Do you ever read the book Misery? Stephen King Misery?

2261
01:47:54,360 --> 01:47:55,920
Speaker 5: I only saw the movie. I should, I should?

2262
01:47:55,960 --> 01:47:56,639
Speaker 1: I should read book.

2263
01:47:56,640 --> 01:47:58,599
Speaker 3: Sure, you should read the book for sure. But that's

2264
01:47:58,840 --> 01:48:02,639
Speaker 3: that's the other trap you're getting yourself into. At some point,

2265
01:48:02,720 --> 01:48:05,799
Speaker 3: you're gonna have some rabid fan who's like, I demand

2266
01:48:06,640 --> 01:48:10,280
Speaker 3: to know what happens to your character. Yeah, because I'm

2267
01:48:10,360 --> 01:48:12,000
Speaker 3: so dedicated to them.

2268
01:48:12,160 --> 01:48:14,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's a book. Landon Beach has a book out

2269
01:48:14,080 --> 01:48:16,839
Speaker 5: called Narrator where he does something similar with a narrator

2270
01:48:17,600 --> 01:48:19,960
Speaker 5: and it's it's really it's really good book. It's really clever,

2271
01:48:20,280 --> 01:48:22,519
Speaker 5: really well done. But but yeah, no, I think I

2272
01:48:22,600 --> 01:48:27,280
Speaker 5: take some security measures. I tend to still think things

2273
01:48:27,320 --> 01:48:28,719
Speaker 5: that way I did before I went to the military,

2274
01:48:28,800 --> 01:48:30,720
Speaker 5: and I continue to think that way today. This is

2275
01:48:30,800 --> 01:48:33,240
Speaker 5: a natural way for me to think, so I do

2276
01:48:33,360 --> 01:48:36,519
Speaker 5: take a little precautions here and there. It only only

2277
01:48:36,560 --> 01:48:38,280
Speaker 5: makes sense today where it's so easy to find somebody.

2278
01:48:38,560 --> 01:48:42,160
Speaker 1: Sure. Yeah, all right, guys, well me order it now.

2279
01:48:42,280 --> 01:48:44,160
Speaker 1: Can you pre order the book in the audio right now?

2280
01:48:44,240 --> 01:48:46,960
Speaker 5: You sure can? You sure can? Yeah? Audio, ebook and

2281
01:48:47,280 --> 01:48:50,439
Speaker 5: hardcover all come out on May sixteenth. Rayporter is narrating

2282
01:48:50,600 --> 01:48:53,599
Speaker 5: again and uh yeah, coming in to Hot May sixteen.

2283
01:48:53,760 --> 01:48:57,120
Speaker 1: Order it now comes out May sixteenth. Find it, I'm

2284
01:48:57,120 --> 01:49:01,760
Speaker 1: assuming anywhere everywhere, but everywhere book are sold. Only The Dead,

2285
01:49:02,400 --> 01:49:06,960
Speaker 1: the sixth book from our guest today, Jack car Available

2286
01:49:07,000 --> 01:49:12,080
Speaker 1: from Simon and Schuster. Yep, Only the Dead. It'll ship

2287
01:49:12,120 --> 01:49:14,280
Speaker 1: to you soon. You buy it now. Thank you very much,

2288
01:49:14,400 --> 01:49:14,880
Speaker 1: Jack car.

2289
01:49:15,080 --> 01:49:16,360
Speaker 5: Man, Thank you so much for having me. This has

2290
01:49:16,400 --> 01:49:18,200
Speaker 5: been awesome. This has been awesome, and I can't wait

2291
01:49:18,200 --> 01:49:20,519
Speaker 5: to see the new studio. Not that this one is

2292
01:49:20,680 --> 01:49:23,120
Speaker 5: lacking in any way, shape or form, but I'm really

2293
01:49:23,120 --> 01:49:24,240
Speaker 5: looking forward to seeing the new one.

2294
01:49:26,120 --> 01:49:26,280
Speaker 6: Here.

2295
01:49:26,920 --> 01:49:28,639
Speaker 5: It is awesome. Thank you guys, appreciate everything.

2296
01:49:34,520 --> 01:49:35,880
Speaker 6: Ride on.

2297
01:49:41,360 --> 01:49:51,400
Speaker 1: Seal gray, shine like silver in the sun, right.

2298
01:49:53,680 --> 01:49:56,240
Speaker 6: Right alone.

2299
01:49:59,240 --> 01:50:06,200
Speaker 5: Wait, done, beat this damn horse today, taking a new one, rive.

2300
01:50:09,439 --> 01:50:09,680
Speaker 6: With it.

2301
01:50:09,880 --> 01:50:15,400
Speaker 5: Done, beat this damn horse today. So take your new

2302
01:50:15,479 --> 01:50:17,280
Speaker 5: one and ride on.

2303
01:50:22,439 --> 01:50:29,439
Speaker 1: Chapter ten, Killing proper. There is a right way and

2304
01:50:29,520 --> 01:50:31,519
Speaker 1: a wrong way to kill a wild animal, and I

2305
01:50:31,600 --> 01:50:35,000
Speaker 1: don't mean that in a practical sense. An explanation of

2306
01:50:35,040 --> 01:50:38,040
Speaker 1: this is tricky, similar to explaining why it's more pleasurable

2307
01:50:38,080 --> 01:50:41,040
Speaker 1: to spend money earned through hard work than money earned

2308
01:50:41,080 --> 01:50:45,439
Speaker 1: through dubious means. It comes down to metaphysical issues, things

2309
01:50:45,520 --> 01:50:48,040
Speaker 1: of the heart. I was thinking about this one day

2310
01:50:48,120 --> 01:50:50,080
Speaker 1: while I was hunting mountain lions with a pack of

2311
01:50:50,160 --> 01:50:54,280
Speaker 1: about a dozen dogs in southeastern Arizona. They were tall,

2312
01:50:54,400 --> 01:50:58,480
Speaker 1: lanky hounds, most of walker bloodlines, owned by my companions,

2313
01:50:58,560 --> 01:51:01,920
Speaker 1: Floyd Green and Joe Mitty, two well known mountain lion

2314
01:51:01,960 --> 01:51:05,639
Speaker 1: of hunters with a combined lion hunting experience spanning about

2315
01:51:05,720 --> 01:51:10,120
Speaker 1: sixty years and five hundred cats. Many of their dogs

2316
01:51:10,160 --> 01:51:14,759
Speaker 1: showed physical evidence of past skirmishes with lions, including slit ears,

2317
01:51:15,000 --> 01:51:19,639
Speaker 1: lacerated noses, and scarred muzzles. The injuries were usually suffered

2318
01:51:19,640 --> 01:51:22,240
Speaker 1: when they brought a lion to bay, a term for

2319
01:51:22,360 --> 01:51:25,519
Speaker 1: when hounds chased their quarry into a tree or corner

2320
01:51:25,680 --> 01:51:28,400
Speaker 1: against the cliff, or trap it in a cave, and

2321
01:51:28,479 --> 01:51:30,880
Speaker 1: then hold it there until their master shows up to

2322
01:51:31,000 --> 01:51:34,439
Speaker 1: deal with the beast. Earlier, I had mentioned to Floyd

2323
01:51:34,640 --> 01:51:36,600
Speaker 1: that it seemed as though a dog would lose his

2324
01:51:36,800 --> 01:51:40,080
Speaker 1: taste for hunting lions once he got scratched a time

2325
01:51:40,200 --> 01:51:43,880
Speaker 1: or two. It's the opposite of what you'd think, replied Floyd.

2326
01:51:44,400 --> 01:51:48,240
Speaker 1: It just makes them hungrier. I was camped with Floyd

2327
01:51:48,240 --> 01:51:50,720
Speaker 1: and Joe at an old abandoned ranch house not far

2328
01:51:50,800 --> 01:51:53,120
Speaker 1: from ara vip A Canyon, at the end of a

2329
01:51:53,240 --> 01:51:56,840
Speaker 1: driveway that takes more than an hour to travel along

2330
01:51:56,960 --> 01:51:59,599
Speaker 1: this route. On our way in, we saw where something

2331
01:51:59,680 --> 01:52:02,400
Speaker 1: had been dragged across the road from west to east

2332
01:52:02,760 --> 01:52:05,800
Speaker 1: and then down into a dry arroyo. At the end

2333
01:52:05,880 --> 01:52:08,320
Speaker 1: of the drag marks was a dead buck with pick

2334
01:52:08,439 --> 01:52:10,920
Speaker 1: clean bones that had been buried with leaves and dirt

2335
01:52:10,960 --> 01:52:14,320
Speaker 1: beneath the scrubby little oak. The hide was in pieces,

2336
01:52:14,360 --> 01:52:16,800
Speaker 1: but still connected to the carcass here and there, like

2337
01:52:16,880 --> 01:52:19,519
Speaker 1: a person who passed out drunk in bed without getting

2338
01:52:19,560 --> 01:52:23,439
Speaker 1: completely free of his clothes. Floyd tipped his cowboy hat

2339
01:52:23,520 --> 01:52:25,519
Speaker 1: and peeled back the deer's skin to show me the

2340
01:52:25,600 --> 01:52:29,120
Speaker 1: blood clots and teeth marks around the animal's neck. He

2341
01:52:29,280 --> 01:52:31,759
Speaker 1: also showed me where the spine had been wrung around

2342
01:52:31,800 --> 01:52:35,040
Speaker 1: in circles three or four times. There wasn't a doubt

2343
01:52:35,080 --> 01:52:37,280
Speaker 1: in his mind that we were looking at a lion kill.

2344
01:52:37,760 --> 01:52:39,960
Speaker 1: Though it was at least a week old. This was

2345
01:52:40,040 --> 01:52:42,840
Speaker 1: good news. We'd come to hunt this area because a

2346
01:52:42,880 --> 01:52:46,040
Speaker 1: local ranger had lost fifty calves to lions here the

2347
01:52:46,160 --> 01:52:49,840
Speaker 1: previous spring, about nine months earlier, and this was proof

2348
01:52:50,040 --> 01:52:55,479
Speaker 1: that at least one lion was still hanging around. If

2349
01:52:55,520 --> 01:52:57,640
Speaker 1: you had asked me ten years earlier, I would have

2350
01:52:57,760 --> 01:52:59,840
Speaker 1: told you that I'd never want to hunt a mountain lion.

2351
01:53:00,240 --> 01:53:02,640
Speaker 1: What's the challenge? I would have asked in shooting a

2352
01:53:02,760 --> 01:53:05,840
Speaker 1: cat out of a tree. The notion of challenge is

2353
01:53:05,920 --> 01:53:09,840
Speaker 1: one of the most hotly debated aspects of hunting. Definitions

2354
01:53:09,920 --> 01:53:13,840
Speaker 1: of the word evolve so constantly and are so subjective

2355
01:53:14,200 --> 01:53:16,479
Speaker 1: that it's hard to find two hunters who define it

2356
01:53:16,560 --> 01:53:19,080
Speaker 1: in the same way. As a way of dealing with

2357
01:53:19,200 --> 01:53:22,240
Speaker 1: the confusion, Some of us abide by a more readily

2358
01:53:22,400 --> 01:53:26,679
Speaker 1: definable synonym known as fair chase. It's an ethical term

2359
01:53:26,760 --> 01:53:29,840
Speaker 1: that provides hunters with a guiding principle to abide by.

2360
01:53:30,600 --> 01:53:34,880
Speaker 1: Jim Posowitz, the founder of Oryan, the Hunter's Institute, writes

2361
01:53:34,960 --> 01:53:38,600
Speaker 1: that fair chase addresses the balance between the hunter and

2362
01:53:38,680 --> 01:53:41,800
Speaker 1: the hunted. It is a balance that allows hunters to

2363
01:53:42,000 --> 01:53:48,320
Speaker 1: occasionally succeed while animals generally avoid being taken. Some hunting

2364
01:53:48,400 --> 01:53:51,000
Speaker 1: strategies are such an affront to the idea of fair

2365
01:53:51,120 --> 01:53:54,840
Speaker 1: chase that hunters share in almost universal disdain for them.

2366
01:53:55,720 --> 01:53:59,160
Speaker 1: For example, most hunters would agree that dynamite shouldn't be

2367
01:53:59,280 --> 01:54:02,320
Speaker 1: used for duck hung because it would take away the challenge.

2368
01:54:02,880 --> 01:54:06,040
Speaker 1: Most hunters would also agree that night vision goggles shouldn't

2369
01:54:06,040 --> 01:54:09,280
Speaker 1: be used in deer hunting for the same reason. Often,

2370
01:54:09,520 --> 01:54:12,320
Speaker 1: as is the case with these examples, our notions of

2371
01:54:12,439 --> 01:54:15,920
Speaker 1: fair chase are enforced by law. It's illegal to kill

2372
01:54:16,000 --> 01:54:19,200
Speaker 1: ducks with dynamite. It's also illegal to hunt deer with

2373
01:54:19,280 --> 01:54:23,760
Speaker 1: the aid of artificial lights. However, fair chase is not

2374
01:54:24,040 --> 01:54:28,960
Speaker 1: universally legislated. Certain activities that are definitely not fair chase,

2375
01:54:29,400 --> 01:54:32,520
Speaker 1: such as the pathetic practice of hunting animals inside high

2376
01:54:32,600 --> 01:54:36,280
Speaker 1: wire fences is permissible in many regions as long as

2377
01:54:36,320 --> 01:54:39,480
Speaker 1: it's done on private property and with the proper legal permits.

2378
01:54:40,080 --> 01:54:42,680
Speaker 1: Whether or not a hunter chooses to participate in this

2379
01:54:42,840 --> 01:54:47,280
Speaker 1: limp dict activity comes down to personal choice. Other issues

2380
01:54:47,360 --> 01:54:50,720
Speaker 1: of personal choice are much more nuanced than this example,

2381
01:54:51,160 --> 01:54:55,240
Speaker 1: though they're taken no less seriously by many sportsmen over

2382
01:54:55,320 --> 01:54:58,680
Speaker 1: the years. I've met hunters who eskew rifles with telescopic

2383
01:54:58,760 --> 01:55:01,839
Speaker 1: scopes because they I prefer the challenge of using rifles

2384
01:55:01,880 --> 01:55:05,560
Speaker 1: with open or iron sights. I've met hunters who don't

2385
01:55:05,640 --> 01:55:08,800
Speaker 1: use rifles because they favor the additional challenge presented by

2386
01:55:08,880 --> 01:55:11,800
Speaker 1: compound bows. And I've met hunters who gave up on

2387
01:55:11,920 --> 01:55:14,840
Speaker 1: compound bows in order to take on the even more

2388
01:55:14,920 --> 01:55:19,240
Speaker 1: difficult challenge of hunting with a handmade long bow. However,

2389
01:55:19,640 --> 01:55:22,440
Speaker 1: some hunters who use handmade long bows hunt dear by

2390
01:55:22,480 --> 01:55:24,600
Speaker 1: sitting in a tree stand next to a bait pile,

2391
01:55:25,040 --> 01:55:28,520
Speaker 1: a practice that is considered unchallenging by many guys who

2392
01:55:28,640 --> 01:55:32,600
Speaker 1: prefer hunting on foot in open country with a rifle

2393
01:55:32,720 --> 01:55:37,840
Speaker 1: and a telescopic scope. I generally believe these differentiations to

2394
01:55:37,920 --> 01:55:41,760
Speaker 1: be positive, however, nitpicky because they demonstrate that hunters are

2395
01:55:41,840 --> 01:55:44,800
Speaker 1: thinking people who struggle to define the limits of their world.

2396
01:55:45,440 --> 01:55:47,640
Speaker 1: I know that I certainly do, though I've come to

2397
01:55:47,720 --> 01:55:52,200
Speaker 1: realize that rigid boundaries are sometimes hard to determine. Consider

2398
01:55:52,320 --> 01:55:54,040
Speaker 1: something that happened to me while I was living for

2399
01:55:54,120 --> 01:55:56,839
Speaker 1: about nine months along the Big Horn River in Wyoming.

2400
01:55:57,560 --> 01:56:00,600
Speaker 1: While there, I became friends with a hay farm whom

2401
01:56:00,640 --> 01:56:04,400
Speaker 1: we'll call Bill. He had a side business raising game birds.

2402
01:56:04,840 --> 01:56:08,120
Speaker 1: He would buy pheasant and chucker hatchlings from a wholesaler

2403
01:56:08,240 --> 01:56:11,240
Speaker 1: for around a dollar apiece and then raise the birds

2404
01:56:11,280 --> 01:56:15,200
Speaker 1: to maturity inside huge tent light structures made of netting.

2405
01:56:16,080 --> 01:56:18,720
Speaker 1: Hawks and falcons would dive at the birds from above

2406
01:56:18,800 --> 01:56:21,640
Speaker 1: and hit the netting so hard that they'd blast through

2407
01:56:21,680 --> 01:56:24,200
Speaker 1: it like it was wet and newsprint, so the upper

2408
01:56:24,280 --> 01:56:29,000
Speaker 1: portions were reinforced with wire fencing. Bill fitted each bird

2409
01:56:29,080 --> 01:56:32,000
Speaker 1: with a little piece of plastic called the blinder, which

2410
01:56:32,080 --> 01:56:35,120
Speaker 1: worked like the blinders you see on draft animals. But

2411
01:56:35,240 --> 01:56:37,880
Speaker 1: while the blinder on draft animals keeps them from getting

2412
01:56:37,960 --> 01:56:41,960
Speaker 1: spooked or distracted by objects in its peripheral vision, the

2413
01:56:42,080 --> 01:56:44,480
Speaker 1: blinder on a pen raised game bird is meant to

2414
01:56:44,560 --> 01:56:48,240
Speaker 1: keep him from seeing clearly enough to maul his penmates

2415
01:56:48,280 --> 01:56:51,680
Speaker 1: out of the frustration and anxiety that are hallmarks of

2416
01:56:51,760 --> 01:56:55,040
Speaker 1: wild animals that are forced to live in tight confines.

2417
01:56:56,640 --> 01:56:59,320
Speaker 1: When the birds were mature, Bill would sell them to

2418
01:56:59,400 --> 01:57:01,800
Speaker 1: want to be hunters for nine or ten dollars each.

2419
01:57:02,520 --> 01:57:05,320
Speaker 1: When a client called, he'd go into his bird tent

2420
01:57:05,400 --> 01:57:07,720
Speaker 1: and collect the number of birds that the guy wanted

2421
01:57:07,760 --> 01:57:10,560
Speaker 1: to shoot. He'd put the birds into cage and load

2422
01:57:10,600 --> 01:57:13,240
Speaker 1: the cage on his ATV, and then drive them out

2423
01:57:13,320 --> 01:57:16,240
Speaker 1: into a field one at a time. He'd pick out

2424
01:57:16,320 --> 01:57:19,040
Speaker 1: the birds and twirl them around with a windmill motion

2425
01:57:19,520 --> 01:57:22,320
Speaker 1: that Pete Townshend from the who famously used to play

2426
01:57:22,400 --> 01:57:25,920
Speaker 1: his guitar. This would put the birds to sleep, or

2427
01:57:25,920 --> 01:57:29,400
Speaker 1: at least something resembling sleep. Then Bill would form a

2428
01:57:29,480 --> 01:57:31,880
Speaker 1: little hut out of field grass and tuck the bird

2429
01:57:32,000 --> 01:57:35,600
Speaker 1: into it. The timing of this was delicate. He wanted

2430
01:57:35,640 --> 01:57:37,840
Speaker 1: the birds to come to their senses soon enough that

2431
01:57:37,880 --> 01:57:40,680
Speaker 1: they'd fly away when the clients came along, but not

2432
01:57:40,880 --> 01:57:43,160
Speaker 1: so soon that they'd wander off in search of food.

2433
01:57:43,240 --> 01:57:48,000
Speaker 1: Before that happened. When the clients came out, their activities

2434
01:57:48,080 --> 01:57:51,480
Speaker 1: certainly hinted at hunting. They would lead dogs and carry

2435
01:57:51,520 --> 01:57:54,600
Speaker 1: shotguns and shoot at edible birds that were flying through

2436
01:57:54,600 --> 01:57:57,880
Speaker 1: the air. But while game farm hunting does have these

2437
01:57:58,040 --> 01:58:02,480
Speaker 1: attributes of actual hunting, lacks the beautiful essence of uncertainty

2438
01:58:02,840 --> 01:58:05,800
Speaker 1: that is to hunting what pan drippings are to gravy.

2439
01:58:06,600 --> 01:58:08,840
Speaker 1: The hunter's success did not come from the fact that

2440
01:58:08,880 --> 01:58:12,040
Speaker 1: they'd studied the species and learned its ways and scouted

2441
01:58:12,080 --> 01:58:15,360
Speaker 1: its habitat. Instead, it came because they paid some guy

2442
01:58:15,480 --> 01:58:17,680
Speaker 1: to raise the birds and then make sure they were

2443
01:58:17,720 --> 01:58:20,400
Speaker 1: put out in the field where the hunters almost couldn't

2444
01:58:20,440 --> 01:58:24,400
Speaker 1: help but find them. One day, Bill invited me to

2445
01:58:24,480 --> 01:58:27,520
Speaker 1: hunt his place. This seemed like a strange choice of

2446
01:58:27,600 --> 01:58:31,560
Speaker 1: words for him to use. While Bill definitely advertised his

2447
01:58:31,720 --> 01:58:35,000
Speaker 1: business as hunting, he in no way actually thought of

2448
01:58:35,080 --> 01:58:35,800
Speaker 1: it as hunting.

2449
01:58:36,360 --> 01:58:37,600
Speaker 5: For him, hunting was.

2450
01:58:37,640 --> 01:58:40,880
Speaker 1: Packing his horses twenty miles into the upper Gray Bowl

2451
01:58:41,000 --> 01:58:44,480
Speaker 1: region of the Absorca Mountains to chase mule, deer, elk,

2452
01:58:44,800 --> 01:58:48,000
Speaker 1: and sometimes big horned sheep on a landscape defined by

2453
01:58:48,120 --> 01:58:52,520
Speaker 1: craggy peaks, narrow trails, and big grizzlies. When I asked

2454
01:58:52,600 --> 01:58:56,000
Speaker 1: him about this, he explained that his season was winding down,

2455
01:58:56,400 --> 01:58:58,720
Speaker 1: and that they were months worth of runaway birds on

2456
01:58:58,800 --> 01:59:02,040
Speaker 1: the property that had either eluded his clients or escaped

2457
01:59:02,080 --> 01:59:05,839
Speaker 1: his nets. At first I told him that I couldn't

2458
01:59:06,440 --> 01:59:08,960
Speaker 1: with all due respect, I said it ran contrary to

2459
01:59:09,040 --> 01:59:11,760
Speaker 1: my ethics. But then I got to thinking about it.

2460
01:59:12,280 --> 01:59:15,200
Speaker 1: I thought about how these bird species were not indigenous

2461
01:59:15,280 --> 01:59:18,440
Speaker 1: to this region or even to the continent, about how

2462
01:59:18,480 --> 01:59:21,880
Speaker 1: they'd probably never survived the winter, and about how if

2463
01:59:21,960 --> 01:59:25,000
Speaker 1: they did, their presence on the land was at least

2464
01:59:25,160 --> 01:59:27,880
Speaker 1: as false a concept as hunting for them would be.

2465
01:59:28,720 --> 01:59:31,680
Speaker 1: I also considered how tasty they'd be, so I went

2466
01:59:31,720 --> 01:59:34,000
Speaker 1: out with Bill, shot a few birds, boned them out,

2467
01:59:34,080 --> 01:59:36,520
Speaker 1: and cooked them in a stir fry. To this day

2468
01:59:36,560 --> 01:59:39,600
Speaker 1: I find myself thinking about the rightness and wrongness of

2469
01:59:39,680 --> 01:59:42,760
Speaker 1: that hunt, and I only mention it now so that

2470
01:59:42,920 --> 01:59:46,400
Speaker 1: I don't come across as overly cocky about the certitude

2471
01:59:46,440 --> 01:59:50,240
Speaker 1: of my own moral compass. It's helpful to think of

2472
01:59:50,320 --> 01:59:53,000
Speaker 1: the ethics of hunting as a form of religion, and

2473
01:59:53,120 --> 01:59:56,200
Speaker 1: that most people's beliefs are influenced as much by where

2474
01:59:56,280 --> 01:59:59,600
Speaker 1: they were born as bout what they've learned since leaving home.

2475
02:00:00,480 --> 02:00:02,600
Speaker 1: I grew up in an area where hunting deer over

2476
02:00:02,720 --> 02:00:06,320
Speaker 1: bait was the normal way of doing things. In late September,

2477
02:00:06,640 --> 02:00:10,800
Speaker 1: we'd sometimes drive to a carrot processing facility near Grant, Michigan,

2478
02:00:11,120 --> 02:00:13,800
Speaker 1: where we could buy a pickup load of oversized and

2479
02:00:13,920 --> 02:00:17,720
Speaker 1: misshapen carrot rejects for five dollars. We'd then go to

2480
02:00:17,800 --> 02:00:21,200
Speaker 1: our hunting areas and shovel these carrots into a duluthe

2481
02:00:21,240 --> 02:00:23,680
Speaker 1: pack and lug them into the woods near the intersection

2482
02:00:23,760 --> 02:00:27,240
Speaker 1: of deer trails. Once a pile started getting hit by deer,

2483
02:00:27,520 --> 02:00:29,920
Speaker 1: we'd add more carrots and hang a tree stand in

2484
02:00:30,000 --> 02:00:34,960
Speaker 1: a nearby tree. Hunting over bait, I spent an incalculable

2485
02:00:34,960 --> 02:00:38,040
Speaker 1: amount of cold and miserable hours without seeing a single deer.

2486
02:00:38,840 --> 02:00:41,960
Speaker 1: Sometimes the bow season would pass without my getting a

2487
02:00:42,040 --> 02:00:45,440
Speaker 1: shot at an animal, except maybe a squirrel or grouse

2488
02:00:45,480 --> 02:00:48,920
Speaker 1: that passed beneath my tree. The limited number of deer

2489
02:00:49,040 --> 02:00:52,080
Speaker 1: that lived in my hunting area had adapted to the

2490
02:00:52,200 --> 02:00:55,360
Speaker 1: absurd abundance of bait piles in the woods and had

2491
02:00:55,480 --> 02:00:59,280
Speaker 1: learned to simply avoid them during daylight hours. After all,

2492
02:00:59,600 --> 02:01:01,760
Speaker 1: there were plenty of other foods for them to eat,

2493
02:01:02,160 --> 02:01:04,680
Speaker 1: such as the apples and corn, and the orchards and

2494
02:01:04,800 --> 02:01:07,160
Speaker 1: fields that were often within a few hundred yards of

2495
02:01:07,240 --> 02:01:10,760
Speaker 1: our bait. So by using a strategy that some might

2496
02:01:10,880 --> 02:01:13,960
Speaker 1: describe as cheating or as taking away the challenge of

2497
02:01:14,000 --> 02:01:17,400
Speaker 1: the hunt, we were doing something that, in hindsight, had

2498
02:01:17,440 --> 02:01:21,440
Speaker 1: the effect of making deer hunting almost too challenging. Twenty

2499
02:01:21,560 --> 02:01:24,880
Speaker 1: something years later, I no longer hunt over bait at all.

2500
02:01:25,520 --> 02:01:29,040
Speaker 1: My reasons for this are not based entirely on ethics. Instead,

2501
02:01:29,160 --> 02:01:32,280
Speaker 1: I am not interested in using artificial bait because I

2502
02:01:32,320 --> 02:01:35,680
Speaker 1: am not interested in hunting animals that are doing artificial things.

2503
02:01:36,280 --> 02:01:38,480
Speaker 1: To go out and find a deer by solving the

2504
02:01:38,600 --> 02:01:41,440
Speaker 1: riddle of its natural patterns is far more enticing to

2505
02:01:41,560 --> 02:01:45,600
Speaker 1: me than finding a deer by interrupting those patterns. Baiting

2506
02:01:45,760 --> 02:01:48,400
Speaker 1: is not, in my opinion, a type of hunting that

2507
02:01:48,600 --> 02:01:52,680
Speaker 1: fosters an intelligent understanding of animals. But if you enjoy it,

2508
02:01:53,000 --> 02:01:58,040
Speaker 1: go ahead. My impression of hunting animals with hounds was

2509
02:01:58,160 --> 02:02:02,240
Speaker 1: formed through an equally subjective and haphazard set of experiences.

2510
02:02:03,080 --> 02:02:05,920
Speaker 1: My introduction to this kind of hunting came when I

2511
02:02:06,040 --> 02:02:08,839
Speaker 1: was about eighteen years old and was invited to accompany

2512
02:02:08,880 --> 02:02:12,320
Speaker 1: a raccoon hunter whom we'll call Dave. It was the

2513
02:02:12,440 --> 02:02:16,200
Speaker 1: late summer training season, when you're allowed to exercise your

2514
02:02:16,280 --> 02:02:18,240
Speaker 1: coon dogs in the woods, but you're not allowed to

2515
02:02:18,280 --> 02:02:21,960
Speaker 1: kill any raccoons. We went out at about eleven PM

2516
02:02:22,280 --> 02:02:24,320
Speaker 1: and turned the dogs out of the truck along a

2517
02:02:24,360 --> 02:02:27,600
Speaker 1: two track. We then drove along with the dogs running

2518
02:02:27,640 --> 02:02:29,920
Speaker 1: out ahead of us, the way you see some lazy

2519
02:02:30,000 --> 02:02:33,600
Speaker 1: people exercise their pets. We hadn't gone a mile when

2520
02:02:33,640 --> 02:02:36,120
Speaker 1: the dogs struck a hot trail and bellowed their way

2521
02:02:36,200 --> 02:02:39,200
Speaker 1: down a slope and across a creek and into the darkness.

2522
02:02:40,160 --> 02:02:42,960
Speaker 1: Dave cut the truck's engine and we listened to the dogs.

2523
02:02:43,680 --> 02:02:46,080
Speaker 1: He could tell from the pitch and intensity of their

2524
02:02:46,160 --> 02:02:48,640
Speaker 1: barks that they had already brought the raccoon to bay.

2525
02:02:49,480 --> 02:02:52,000
Speaker 1: With headlamps, we walked down the slope and across the

2526
02:02:52,080 --> 02:02:55,160
Speaker 1: creek and found the hounds scratching at a small oak.

2527
02:02:56,000 --> 02:02:58,480
Speaker 1: Up in the limbs were a female raccoon in several

2528
02:02:58,560 --> 02:03:01,640
Speaker 1: of her young cubs. Dave then explained to me that

2529
02:03:01,760 --> 02:03:03,760
Speaker 1: it wasn't good to pull the dogs away from the

2530
02:03:03,840 --> 02:03:07,240
Speaker 1: raccoons without killing one, because they might lose interest in

2531
02:03:07,360 --> 02:03:10,720
Speaker 1: hunting if they weren't properly rewarded. So he raised up

2532
02:03:10,760 --> 02:03:12,880
Speaker 1: a twenty two pistol that I didn't even know he

2533
02:03:13,080 --> 02:03:15,920
Speaker 1: had and shot one of the raccoon cubs dead out

2534
02:03:15,960 --> 02:03:18,560
Speaker 1: of the tree. After that, I told him I was

2535
02:03:18,600 --> 02:03:20,720
Speaker 1: done for the night, and I honestly figured that I

2536
02:03:20,760 --> 02:03:23,800
Speaker 1: wouldn't be hanging around any more houndsmen for at least

2537
02:03:23,880 --> 02:03:28,280
Speaker 1: a long time. But now in the deserts of Arizona,

2538
02:03:28,640 --> 02:03:31,320
Speaker 1: I was not only hanging out with a pair of houndsmen,

2539
02:03:31,600 --> 02:03:34,240
Speaker 1: I was doing everything I could to help them, And

2540
02:03:34,600 --> 02:03:37,120
Speaker 1: as I was learning, the pursuit of a lion is

2541
02:03:37,240 --> 02:03:40,080
Speaker 1: much more complicated than simply shooting an animal out of

2542
02:03:40,160 --> 02:03:43,320
Speaker 1: a tree. The real challenge was getting an animal into

2543
02:03:43,400 --> 02:03:46,800
Speaker 1: a tree in the first place. Doing that required finding

2544
02:03:46,920 --> 02:03:49,840
Speaker 1: something known in the parlance of lion hunters as an

2545
02:03:49,920 --> 02:03:53,440
Speaker 1: overnight track. That means a lion track that was made

2546
02:03:53,520 --> 02:03:57,200
Speaker 1: within the past eight or nine hours, when conditions are right,

2547
02:03:57,440 --> 02:04:00,760
Speaker 1: not too windy, not too dewey, not too rare. A

2548
02:04:00,880 --> 02:04:03,640
Speaker 1: track of that vintage is likely to retain enough of

2549
02:04:03,680 --> 02:04:06,880
Speaker 1: the lion's residual odor for dogs to be able to

2550
02:04:06,960 --> 02:04:09,760
Speaker 1: pick up the scent and trail it. Yet, despite the

2551
02:04:09,840 --> 02:04:12,920
Speaker 1: slaughter of calves that had occurred here, the previous spring,

2552
02:04:13,400 --> 02:04:16,400
Speaker 1: and despite the recently killed deer that we found, we

2553
02:04:16,520 --> 02:04:20,320
Speaker 1: had yet to locate a promising overnight track after days

2554
02:04:20,360 --> 02:04:24,520
Speaker 1: of searching for one. Every day, Floyd and I would

2555
02:04:24,560 --> 02:04:27,920
Speaker 1: wake up well before sunrise. Joe would already be gone,

2556
02:04:28,040 --> 02:04:30,600
Speaker 1: having left so early in the morning that it was

2557
02:04:30,720 --> 02:04:33,800
Speaker 1: more like nighttime. Floyd and I would head into the

2558
02:04:33,880 --> 02:04:37,880
Speaker 1: desert with some predetermined landscape feature as our ultimate destination,

2559
02:04:38,600 --> 02:04:43,480
Speaker 1: masas rocky buttes, deeply in sized canyons, high ridge lines,

2560
02:04:43,720 --> 02:04:49,240
Speaker 1: saddles passes, all places where lions are likely to either hunt, sleep,

2561
02:04:49,440 --> 02:04:52,960
Speaker 1: or travel through. Floyd is in his mid fifties, and

2562
02:04:53,040 --> 02:04:56,280
Speaker 1: his appearance brings to mind Robert Redford when the actor

2563
02:04:56,400 --> 02:04:59,880
Speaker 1: was about that same age. He's part owner of Western

2564
02:05:00,160 --> 02:05:04,000
Speaker 1: Hunter and Elk Hunter magazines and full owner of Outdoorsman's,

2565
02:05:04,080 --> 02:05:07,640
Speaker 1: an iconic Phoenix sporting goods store that specializes in high

2566
02:05:07,840 --> 02:05:11,640
Speaker 1: end European made optics, as well as Outdoorsman's own line

2567
02:05:11,680 --> 02:05:16,080
Speaker 1: of American made backpacking tripod systems. His line of work

2568
02:05:16,160 --> 02:05:19,000
Speaker 1: allows him to think of chasing lions as a business

2569
02:05:19,080 --> 02:05:22,120
Speaker 1: related activity, which means he can hunt as much as

2570
02:05:22,200 --> 02:05:24,600
Speaker 1: he wants to without having to feel guilty about it

2571
02:05:25,480 --> 02:05:28,640
Speaker 1: some years ago. He and his girlfriend owned and operated

2572
02:05:28,720 --> 02:05:33,160
Speaker 1: an aerial photography company. This required Floyd to buy a helicopter.

2573
02:05:33,680 --> 02:05:35,800
Speaker 1: I learned to fly a helicopter in a month, he

2574
02:05:35,920 --> 02:05:38,880
Speaker 1: told me. Meanwhile, I've been hunting lions for twenty years

2575
02:05:39,000 --> 02:05:42,360
Speaker 1: and I'm still learning stuff. Lion hunting is the hardest

2576
02:05:42,400 --> 02:05:46,160
Speaker 1: thing I've ever done, At least on this hunt, Floyd

2577
02:05:46,280 --> 02:05:49,680
Speaker 1: mostly preferred to look for overnight tracks without the assistance

2578
02:05:49,720 --> 02:05:52,720
Speaker 1: of his dogs. For one thing, he didn't want them

2579
02:05:52,760 --> 02:05:54,920
Speaker 1: to get tired out before it was time to actually

2580
02:05:55,000 --> 02:05:58,320
Speaker 1: chase a lion. For another thing, the passage of all

2581
02:05:58,440 --> 02:06:01,640
Speaker 1: those dogs pause has the potential to disturb the delicate

2582
02:06:01,720 --> 02:06:04,960
Speaker 1: evidence that a lion might leave while traveling over a

2583
02:06:05,040 --> 02:06:09,480
Speaker 1: portion of the Earth's surface that is covered predominantly in rock, cactus,

2584
02:06:09,560 --> 02:06:13,400
Speaker 1: and grass, surfaces that do not readily collect the tracks

2585
02:06:13,400 --> 02:06:17,760
Speaker 1: of a passing animal. Floyd calls himself a bare ground

2586
02:06:17,880 --> 02:06:21,400
Speaker 1: lion hunter, a description that differentiates him from guys who

2587
02:06:21,520 --> 02:06:25,720
Speaker 1: hunt colder and wetter regions with predictable and frequent dosages

2588
02:06:25,800 --> 02:06:30,120
Speaker 1: of snow, the world's most track friendly substance. While a

2589
02:06:30,200 --> 02:06:32,920
Speaker 1: big lion can weigh up to one hundred and fifty pounds.

2590
02:06:32,960 --> 02:06:35,280
Speaker 1: It can kill an elk weighing four times as much.

2591
02:06:35,800 --> 02:06:38,240
Speaker 1: They seem to walk about as gently as a balloon

2592
02:06:38,400 --> 02:06:41,320
Speaker 1: hitting the ground. The only place that they'll leave a

2593
02:06:41,400 --> 02:06:44,680
Speaker 1: track is in the sand, and around here sand occurs

2594
02:06:44,760 --> 02:06:48,880
Speaker 1: primarily in the same places creek beds. Game trails that

2595
02:06:49,040 --> 02:06:55,400
Speaker 1: attract a lot of competing traffic from mule deer, havevelina, cattle, quail, bobcats, coyotes,

2596
02:06:55,480 --> 02:06:58,760
Speaker 1: big horn sheep, and dogs if you let them run

2597
02:06:58,800 --> 02:07:02,839
Speaker 1: out ahead of you. Floyd spends so much time studying

2598
02:07:02,880 --> 02:07:05,360
Speaker 1: the ground for lion tracks that has begun to affect

2599
02:07:05,440 --> 02:07:09,360
Speaker 1: his posture. His natural stance has his eyes staring at

2600
02:07:09,440 --> 02:07:12,600
Speaker 1: the ground directly ahead of his boots. He's trained himself

2601
02:07:12,680 --> 02:07:14,840
Speaker 1: to tune out everything on the ground except for the

2602
02:07:14,960 --> 02:07:18,480
Speaker 1: tracks of lions. On average, these measure about three and

2603
02:07:18,480 --> 02:07:21,000
Speaker 1: a half inches from front to back and side to side.

2604
02:07:21,800 --> 02:07:25,560
Speaker 1: Perfect complete lion tracks are far less common than imperfect

2605
02:07:25,840 --> 02:07:29,160
Speaker 1: partial lion tracks. You might just see the imprint of

2606
02:07:29,240 --> 02:07:32,000
Speaker 1: a few toes in the sand, or the outline of

2607
02:07:32,040 --> 02:07:34,720
Speaker 1: a track that's interrupted by a flat piece of rock.

2608
02:07:35,440 --> 02:07:38,040
Speaker 1: The important part of a lion track, the part that

2609
02:07:38,240 --> 02:07:42,440
Speaker 1: eliminates impostors, is the trailing edge of the heel pad.

2610
02:07:43,200 --> 02:07:46,080
Speaker 1: It leaves an impression in the sand that looks like

2611
02:07:46,200 --> 02:07:51,800
Speaker 1: the bottom of three letter us placed together. When we

2612
02:07:51,840 --> 02:07:54,200
Speaker 1: were out looking for tracks, Floyd and I had many

2613
02:07:54,320 --> 02:07:58,400
Speaker 1: conversations that went like this, here's something interesting. I'd say,

2614
02:07:58,480 --> 02:08:00,680
Speaker 1: this has got to be a lion. Looks a little

2615
02:08:00,840 --> 02:08:03,520
Speaker 1: like a dog, but it's a lot rounder. You should

2616
02:08:03,600 --> 02:08:06,720
Speaker 1: check it out. Can you see the heel pad? Floyd

2617
02:08:06,760 --> 02:08:10,200
Speaker 1: would ask, No, I'd say, look for another one, he'd say.

2618
02:08:11,800 --> 02:08:15,360
Speaker 1: Then finally it happened. After five long days of doing

2619
02:08:15,440 --> 02:08:18,160
Speaker 1: little bit walking and looking for tracks, I found what

2620
02:08:18,240 --> 02:08:21,280
Speaker 1: we were searching for. It was blow a large butte

2621
02:08:21,400 --> 02:08:24,080
Speaker 1: in a dry creek bed where a few boulders funneled

2622
02:08:24,120 --> 02:08:27,120
Speaker 1: the animal traffic into a narrow gap. Here you go,

2623
02:08:27,240 --> 02:08:30,000
Speaker 1: I called out to Floyd, here's a heel pad. Sure

2624
02:08:30,080 --> 02:08:33,960
Speaker 1: than hell. Floyd walked over to have a look. His

2625
02:08:34,120 --> 02:08:37,880
Speaker 1: face registered a moment of interest, but then his enthusiasm waned.

2626
02:08:38,600 --> 02:08:40,880
Speaker 1: Looks to me like a coyote track where he spun

2627
02:08:41,000 --> 02:08:43,560
Speaker 1: around in the sand, so it looks bigger than normal.

2628
02:08:43,640 --> 02:08:46,680
Speaker 1: He said. Then to have Alena step down the back

2629
02:08:46,720 --> 02:08:49,520
Speaker 1: of it. That's what gives it a lobed. Look and

2630
02:08:49,680 --> 02:08:51,960
Speaker 1: notice how you don't see any more good tracks ahead

2631
02:08:52,000 --> 02:08:54,680
Speaker 1: of it or behind it. Just coyote and have Alena

2632
02:08:55,240 --> 02:08:57,760
Speaker 1: keep in mind. He went on, anything can make a

2633
02:08:57,880 --> 02:09:00,880
Speaker 1: lion track once it takes a line to do it. Twice,

2634
02:09:01,400 --> 02:09:04,360
Speaker 1: you find me two good tracks with lob pads, and

2635
02:09:04,440 --> 02:09:07,800
Speaker 1: then you've got something worth looking at. While I was

2636
02:09:07,880 --> 02:09:10,880
Speaker 1: disappointed by our inability to find a good lion track,

2637
02:09:10,960 --> 02:09:14,680
Speaker 1: I was hardly surprised. Prior to my visit to Arizona,

2638
02:09:14,760 --> 02:09:18,280
Speaker 1: I had had only three physical encounters with wild mountain lions.

2639
02:09:19,080 --> 02:09:22,360
Speaker 1: Each of those encounters reinforced my notion of the animal

2640
02:09:22,680 --> 02:09:27,200
Speaker 1: as a secretive and elusive creature. The first encounter stands

2641
02:09:27,240 --> 02:09:30,560
Speaker 1: out in my mind most visibly. It happened near Clearwater

2642
02:09:30,720 --> 02:09:34,680
Speaker 1: Lake in Montana's Swan Mountains, just after I moved out west.

2643
02:09:35,480 --> 02:09:38,120
Speaker 1: That night, i'd been fly fishing for cutthroat trout, and

2644
02:09:38,160 --> 02:09:40,640
Speaker 1: I stayed on the water until a little past dark.

2645
02:09:41,320 --> 02:09:43,720
Speaker 1: When I was done, I hiked three quarters of a

2646
02:09:43,800 --> 02:09:45,880
Speaker 1: mile through the woods back to where my van was

2647
02:09:45,960 --> 02:09:49,320
Speaker 1: parked on a forest service road. It was pitch black

2648
02:09:49,360 --> 02:09:51,680
Speaker 1: by the time I began to long and bumpy drive

2649
02:09:51,800 --> 02:09:55,760
Speaker 1: out toward Highway eighty three. About halfway along, I came

2650
02:09:55,840 --> 02:09:58,360
Speaker 1: to a place where the forest service road had been

2651
02:09:58,440 --> 02:10:01,839
Speaker 1: cut into the side of a steep hillside. I rounded

2652
02:10:01,880 --> 02:10:03,720
Speaker 1: the corner and there was a gang of meal, deeer,

2653
02:10:03,840 --> 02:10:06,080
Speaker 1: doze and fawns, all bunched up in the middle of

2654
02:10:06,120 --> 02:10:09,040
Speaker 1: the road. When I got close, they ran to the

2655
02:10:09,160 --> 02:10:11,960
Speaker 1: right and struggled up the steeply pitched hillside in a

2656
02:10:12,040 --> 02:10:16,680
Speaker 1: whirl of hoofs and falling rocks. Just as this was happening,

2657
02:10:17,040 --> 02:10:19,360
Speaker 1: I caught in my side view mire a sudden flash

2658
02:10:19,440 --> 02:10:22,720
Speaker 1: of movement and the halo of the brake lights. I

2659
02:10:22,840 --> 02:10:25,680
Speaker 1: shoved the shifter upward into reverse so that the van's

2660
02:10:25,760 --> 02:10:28,360
Speaker 1: backup lights would come on, and then I stuck my

2661
02:10:28,440 --> 02:10:31,600
Speaker 1: head out the window to look. There it was, standing

2662
02:10:31,720 --> 02:10:35,160
Speaker 1: within inches of the rear bumper, the first mountain lion

2663
02:10:35,240 --> 02:10:38,120
Speaker 1: I ever saw. He spun himself in a turn that

2664
02:10:38,240 --> 02:10:42,000
Speaker 1: seemed like wine swirling in the glass. With that, the

2665
02:10:42,120 --> 02:10:46,320
Speaker 1: lion vanished into the dark. Over the next few weeks,

2666
02:10:46,360 --> 02:10:48,960
Speaker 1: I thought about that mountain lion far more than I've

2667
02:10:49,040 --> 02:10:52,520
Speaker 1: ever thought about any single living creature, besides a dog

2668
02:10:52,680 --> 02:10:56,040
Speaker 1: named Duchess that my family owned for about thirteen years.

2669
02:10:56,760 --> 02:10:58,680
Speaker 1: I did a fair bit of thinking about what the

2670
02:10:58,800 --> 02:11:02,440
Speaker 1: lion was doing before interrupted its hunt that night, but

2671
02:11:02,560 --> 02:11:05,160
Speaker 1: I did a lot more thinking about what it did afterward.

2672
02:11:05,760 --> 02:11:08,040
Speaker 1: To the north of where I saw the cat was

2673
02:11:08,120 --> 02:11:11,680
Speaker 1: the largest tract of contiguous wilderness in the lower forty

2674
02:11:11,720 --> 02:11:14,880
Speaker 1: eight I was baffled by the mystery of that lion

2675
02:11:15,000 --> 02:11:17,960
Speaker 1: amid all that country. What did it do over the

2676
02:11:18,080 --> 02:11:21,080
Speaker 1: next few days? Where did it hunt? What did it eat?

2677
02:11:21,280 --> 02:11:23,920
Speaker 5: Where did it sleep? How did it react to the

2678
02:11:24,040 --> 02:11:26,640
Speaker 5: world that it encountered? Where did it go?

2679
02:11:28,400 --> 02:11:31,680
Speaker 1: As I pondered these questions and research the answers, I

2680
02:11:31,800 --> 02:11:35,160
Speaker 1: realized that the people with the most sophisticated understanding of

2681
02:11:35,240 --> 02:11:37,960
Speaker 1: mountain lions were the men and women who hunted them

2682
02:11:38,040 --> 02:11:41,680
Speaker 1: with hounds. By following their hounds as they track a lion,

2683
02:11:42,040 --> 02:11:45,120
Speaker 1: houndsmen get to literally walk in the trail of their quarry.

2684
02:11:45,560 --> 02:11:47,960
Speaker 1: They see where the lion hunts, They see where the

2685
02:11:48,040 --> 02:11:51,720
Speaker 1: lion eats, They see where the lion sleeps. They experience

2686
02:11:51,840 --> 02:11:54,720
Speaker 1: the land on the terms of the lion. They know

2687
02:11:55,040 --> 02:11:59,640
Speaker 1: where the lion goes. The lion hunter is also I

2688
02:11:59,720 --> 02:12:02,160
Speaker 1: found out one of the most hated types of hunters

2689
02:12:02,240 --> 02:12:05,400
Speaker 1: in the country. If you think of the conflict between

2690
02:12:05,520 --> 02:12:08,720
Speaker 1: hunters and anti hunters as a long term war, the

2691
02:12:08,880 --> 02:12:11,920
Speaker 1: right to hunt lions with hounds is the current front

2692
02:12:12,000 --> 02:12:15,760
Speaker 1: line battlefield in many Western states. This would have been

2693
02:12:15,960 --> 02:12:19,120
Speaker 1: unforseeable just one hundred years ago, when it was common

2694
02:12:19,240 --> 02:12:22,440
Speaker 1: practice for states to offer bounties on mountain lions because

2695
02:12:22,480 --> 02:12:26,960
Speaker 1: of the cats tendencies to prey on livestock. In Arizona,

2696
02:12:27,320 --> 02:12:30,240
Speaker 1: killing a lion would earn you fifty dollars. In the

2697
02:12:30,360 --> 02:12:34,600
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties and seventies, Western states began to recognize mountain

2698
02:12:34,680 --> 02:12:37,920
Speaker 1: lions as an important part of the ecosystem and also

2699
02:12:38,040 --> 02:12:41,400
Speaker 1: as a species of interest to big game hunters. Most

2700
02:12:41,440 --> 02:12:45,360
Speaker 1: states reclassified lions as a game species and made it

2701
02:12:45,480 --> 02:12:48,520
Speaker 1: necessary for hunters to buy a legal hunting license in

2702
02:12:48,560 --> 02:12:52,480
Speaker 1: a mountain lion permit in order to kill one. There

2703
02:12:52,520 --> 02:12:55,600
Speaker 1: are several ways to hunt lions. You can attract them

2704
02:12:55,640 --> 02:12:58,600
Speaker 1: with a predator call, which typically mimics the sounds of

2705
02:12:58,680 --> 02:13:01,840
Speaker 1: wounded deer or rabbit. Or you can hang around in

2706
02:13:01,920 --> 02:13:04,880
Speaker 1: good lion country hoping that one of the cats happens

2707
02:13:04,920 --> 02:13:07,840
Speaker 1: to come along. But by far the most effective way

2708
02:13:07,880 --> 02:13:10,240
Speaker 1: to hunt mountain lions is through the use of dogs.

2709
02:13:10,560 --> 02:13:14,560
Speaker 1: In Montana, eighty nine percent of lion hunters used dogs,

2710
02:13:14,800 --> 02:13:18,960
Speaker 1: and Wyoming it's ninety percent. Over the last twenty five years,

2711
02:13:19,360 --> 02:13:22,680
Speaker 1: sixty five percent of all lions harvested by hunters in

2712
02:13:22,720 --> 02:13:27,640
Speaker 1: Arizona were killed with the help of dogs. Anti hunters

2713
02:13:27,680 --> 02:13:30,839
Speaker 1: have long recognized the importance of dogs and hunting lions.

2714
02:13:31,560 --> 02:13:35,000
Speaker 1: I believe that the more organized factions of anti hunters

2715
02:13:35,400 --> 02:13:39,040
Speaker 1: camouflage their opposition to hunting in general as a more

2716
02:13:39,120 --> 02:13:43,400
Speaker 1: specific opposition to hunting lions with dogs. It allows them

2717
02:13:43,480 --> 02:13:47,680
Speaker 1: to wage small scale legal battles against the broader spectrum

2718
02:13:47,760 --> 02:13:50,880
Speaker 1: of hunting without having to conquer the issue had on.

2719
02:13:51,880 --> 02:13:55,040
Speaker 1: Some of these battles have proved winnable, as it's easy

2720
02:13:55,120 --> 02:13:57,880
Speaker 1: to convince people who have never once hunted or laid

2721
02:13:57,960 --> 02:14:00,880
Speaker 1: eyes on a wild lion that hunt Hunting animals with

2722
02:14:00,960 --> 02:14:05,240
Speaker 1: dogs is somehow a perverse activity. In nineteen ninety four,

2723
02:14:05,640 --> 02:14:09,600
Speaker 1: Oregon voters passed an initiative that banned hunting lions with dogs.

2724
02:14:09,880 --> 02:14:13,520
Speaker 1: The hunting lions by other means remains legal. The same

2725
02:14:13,600 --> 02:14:17,440
Speaker 1: thing is true in Washington and South Dakota. Hunt lions, yes,

2726
02:14:17,760 --> 02:14:21,400
Speaker 1: with dogs no. If you're puzzled about how such laws

2727
02:14:21,480 --> 02:14:25,000
Speaker 1: could ever come into existence. Consider the results of a

2728
02:14:25,080 --> 02:14:28,920
Speaker 1: two thousand and one pole of Arizona residents. While only

2729
02:14:29,040 --> 02:14:32,520
Speaker 1: twenty nine percent of those polled indicated that hunting should

2730
02:14:32,520 --> 02:14:36,680
Speaker 1: be banned outright, sixty two percent indicated that the use

2731
02:14:36,760 --> 02:14:41,080
Speaker 1: of hounds two hunt lions should be illegal. To be

2732
02:14:41,200 --> 02:14:45,560
Speaker 1: perfectly honest, I was inspired by my personal lion experience

2733
02:14:46,000 --> 02:14:49,640
Speaker 1: to reconsider my own suspicions about the practice of hunting

2734
02:14:49,680 --> 02:14:52,320
Speaker 1: them with hounds. I wanted to see one of the

2735
02:14:52,400 --> 02:14:55,360
Speaker 1: animals up close and to experience the thrill of eating

2736
02:14:55,400 --> 02:14:58,200
Speaker 1: its flesh, and the only realistic way for me to

2737
02:14:58,320 --> 02:15:00,400
Speaker 1: do this was to join up with some high hensman

2738
02:15:00,760 --> 02:15:02,800
Speaker 1: and head into the hills in search of a track.

2739
02:15:03,480 --> 02:15:05,440
Speaker 1: If we got one into a tree and I didn't

2740
02:15:05,520 --> 02:15:07,880
Speaker 1: like the way it felt, I could always walk away

2741
02:15:07,960 --> 02:15:13,720
Speaker 1: without killing it. While we were hunting lions, Floyd's partner, Joe,

2742
02:15:13,840 --> 02:15:15,640
Speaker 1: slept in the back of his pickup on a pad

2743
02:15:15,760 --> 02:15:19,440
Speaker 1: of carpet. He kept his dogs tethered outside of the truck,

2744
02:15:19,520 --> 02:15:22,440
Speaker 1: scattered apart so that they didn't fight or get tangled up.

2745
02:15:23,160 --> 02:15:25,560
Speaker 1: When he got up at three am, he would pull

2746
02:15:25,640 --> 02:15:28,720
Speaker 1: on a pair of faded Levi's Danner hunting boots in

2747
02:15:28,840 --> 02:15:32,520
Speaker 1: one of Floyd's outdoorsmen's backpacks, and then he would unclip

2748
02:15:32,600 --> 02:15:34,640
Speaker 1: the pack of hounds and they would take off together

2749
02:15:34,760 --> 02:15:38,480
Speaker 1: into the darkness. They would cover several miles before it

2750
02:15:38,560 --> 02:15:41,480
Speaker 1: got light out, and then another six or seven miles

2751
02:15:41,520 --> 02:15:44,960
Speaker 1: after daybreak. This was an impressive bit of walking for

2752
02:15:45,080 --> 02:15:47,800
Speaker 1: a man who'd retired from the concrete laying business, with

2753
02:15:47,960 --> 02:15:51,839
Speaker 1: pass injuries including but not limited to a shattered Sternham

2754
02:15:52,240 --> 02:15:56,480
Speaker 1: concrete finisher, a gnawed leg, mountain lion, and a gunshot

2755
02:15:56,560 --> 02:15:59,920
Speaker 1: wound sustained after dropping a three point fifty seven revolve

2756
02:16:00,160 --> 02:16:02,840
Speaker 1: in such a way that the hammer hit the concrete

2757
02:16:03,120 --> 02:16:06,800
Speaker 1: and discharged around. As Joe walked, he would use a

2758
02:16:06,880 --> 02:16:09,600
Speaker 1: headlamp to study the earth in front of him for tracks.

2759
02:16:10,240 --> 02:16:12,760
Speaker 1: His dogs would range out to the sides and ahead

2760
02:16:12,800 --> 02:16:15,160
Speaker 1: of his line of travel with their noses to the ground.

2761
02:16:15,800 --> 02:16:18,880
Speaker 1: By their specific barks, he could tell whether they were

2762
02:16:18,960 --> 02:16:23,760
Speaker 1: detecting the recent passage of a lion. He spent five

2763
02:16:23,880 --> 02:16:28,080
Speaker 1: whole days this way without any significant strokes of luck. Then,

2764
02:16:28,240 --> 02:16:30,520
Speaker 1: on our last day of hunting, Floyd and I were

2765
02:16:30,560 --> 02:16:33,520
Speaker 1: getting ready to leave camp when we heard a cacophony

2766
02:16:33,560 --> 02:16:36,600
Speaker 1: of bellows coming from Joe's dogs high on the mountain

2767
02:16:36,640 --> 02:16:40,000
Speaker 1: above us. It sounded like someone torturing a gang of

2768
02:16:40,120 --> 02:16:43,920
Speaker 1: opera singers. Even from a great distance, Floyd knew exactly

2769
02:16:43,959 --> 02:16:47,400
Speaker 1: what Joe's dogs were saying. That dog you hear there

2770
02:16:47,600 --> 02:16:50,760
Speaker 1: with the low bellow. He doesn't make noise on an

2771
02:16:50,879 --> 02:16:54,160
Speaker 1: old lion trail, said Floyd. He's too old and wise

2772
02:16:54,280 --> 02:16:57,879
Speaker 1: for that. He only makes noise on a good overnight track.

2773
02:16:59,360 --> 02:17:02,000
Speaker 1: We studied the mountainside where the barking was coming from,

2774
02:17:02,080 --> 02:17:05,240
Speaker 1: and soon spotted the flickers of light from Joe's headlamp.

2775
02:17:06,040 --> 02:17:08,640
Speaker 1: He was moving quickly across the face of the mountain.

2776
02:17:09,280 --> 02:17:11,440
Speaker 1: There was a notch in the skyline that marked the

2777
02:17:11,640 --> 02:17:15,080
Speaker 1: entrance to a canyon, and soon Joe's light disappeared into

2778
02:17:15,160 --> 02:17:18,600
Speaker 1: that notch. The sound from the dog's barking began to

2779
02:17:18,680 --> 02:17:22,560
Speaker 1: fade as the distance increased. Joe's voice then came over

2780
02:17:22,600 --> 02:17:25,840
Speaker 1: the walkie talking. He implored Floyd to cut loose some

2781
02:17:26,000 --> 02:17:29,760
Speaker 1: of his dogs. Have you seen a track yet, asked Floyd,

2782
02:17:29,840 --> 02:17:32,480
Speaker 1: Any idea? What way the lion's going? Is it a tom?

2783
02:17:33,040 --> 02:17:36,320
Speaker 1: No tracks yet, said Joe, But they're really moving the trail.

2784
02:17:36,680 --> 02:17:38,840
Speaker 1: Just get some dogs loose and get them up here.

2785
02:17:40,440 --> 02:17:43,520
Speaker 1: Floyd unleashed six of his own dogs, who immediately headed

2786
02:17:43,640 --> 02:17:46,960
Speaker 1: uphill towards the source of the barking. Floyd then turned

2787
02:17:47,000 --> 02:17:50,720
Speaker 1: to me and said, we better get moving. The canyon

2788
02:17:50,800 --> 02:17:53,760
Speaker 1: that Joe and the dogs entered described a long arc.

2789
02:17:53,920 --> 02:17:56,760
Speaker 1: Floyd explained he figured that we might catch up with

2790
02:17:56,879 --> 02:17:59,920
Speaker 1: them by following a neighboring canyon through a straight or route.

2791
02:18:01,000 --> 02:18:04,880
Speaker 1: We headed across a sage patch, passed them sauaro cactuses,

2792
02:18:05,240 --> 02:18:08,359
Speaker 1: and then into the mouth of the canyon. The daylight

2793
02:18:08,480 --> 02:18:11,200
Speaker 1: grew as we made our way into the dry brown mountains.

2794
02:18:11,680 --> 02:18:14,680
Speaker 1: As we walked, Floyd explained the trouble of chasing a

2795
02:18:14,840 --> 02:18:17,520
Speaker 1: lion that the dogs could smell, but that you haven't

2796
02:18:17,560 --> 02:18:20,640
Speaker 1: seen a track from. While the dogs can certainly tell

2797
02:18:20,720 --> 02:18:23,440
Speaker 1: that a lion has passed through, they are not able

2798
02:18:23,520 --> 02:18:27,000
Speaker 1: to determine which direction it is traveling. This can lead

2799
02:18:27,040 --> 02:18:30,880
Speaker 1: to obvious and considerable confusion. As Floyd put it, there's

2800
02:18:30,920 --> 02:18:33,280
Speaker 1: a fifty to fifty chance that the dogs are taking

2801
02:18:33,320 --> 02:18:37,160
Speaker 1: to you in the wrong direction. After a mile of walking,

2802
02:18:37,240 --> 02:18:39,240
Speaker 1: we still hadn't heard the dogs, and we couldn't tell

2803
02:18:39,280 --> 02:18:42,360
Speaker 1: where Joe had gone. We were unable to reach him

2804
02:18:42,360 --> 02:18:46,200
Speaker 1: on the walkie talkie as the deeply cut topography interfered

2805
02:18:46,280 --> 02:18:49,960
Speaker 1: with the transmissions. We traveled another mile and then left

2806
02:18:50,000 --> 02:18:53,199
Speaker 1: the canyon bottom and started walking uphill toward a ridgeline.

2807
02:18:53,720 --> 02:18:56,320
Speaker 1: When we got up there, we still couldn't hear anything.

2808
02:18:56,959 --> 02:18:59,880
Speaker 1: I noticed a high, thumb shaped spire of rock that

2809
02:19:00,200 --> 02:19:03,080
Speaker 1: rose out of the mountains like a city skyscraper, rising

2810
02:19:03,200 --> 02:19:06,920
Speaker 1: above buildings half its height. I commented to Floyd that

2811
02:19:07,040 --> 02:19:09,560
Speaker 1: the lion was probably headed that way, or at least

2812
02:19:09,640 --> 02:19:12,000
Speaker 1: that's where I'd had if I were being chased and

2813
02:19:12,160 --> 02:19:15,720
Speaker 1: wanted to elude my pursuers. Floyd replied that the lion

2814
02:19:15,800 --> 02:19:18,840
Speaker 1: still didn't know it was being chased. He'd been here

2815
02:19:19,080 --> 02:19:23,120
Speaker 1: hours earlier and was probably off sleeping somewhere oblivious to

2816
02:19:23,240 --> 02:19:28,200
Speaker 1: our presence in the world. We pressed on. Hours went by,

2817
02:19:28,600 --> 02:19:32,320
Speaker 1: and the day passed into afternoon. As it would turn out,

2818
02:19:32,440 --> 02:19:35,520
Speaker 1: the line had indeed headed toward the thumb shaped spire

2819
02:19:35,600 --> 02:19:39,480
Speaker 1: of rock, whether or not he knew he was being followed. Later,

2820
02:19:40,000 --> 02:19:42,200
Speaker 1: Floyd and I would finally meet up with Joe near

2821
02:19:42,240 --> 02:19:44,920
Speaker 1: its base. By then, the dogs would have lost the

2822
02:19:45,040 --> 02:19:47,960
Speaker 1: lion's trail, and they'd be too exhausted to follow it.

2823
02:19:48,080 --> 02:19:51,520
Speaker 1: Even if they hadn't, we would find them lolling around

2824
02:19:51,640 --> 02:19:54,560
Speaker 1: on a jumble of rocks. Now and then one of

2825
02:19:54,600 --> 02:19:57,800
Speaker 1: the dogs would lick a certain rock and bellow it's saliva,

2826
02:19:57,959 --> 02:20:01,320
Speaker 1: having released some trace of a lion's order. Then it

2827
02:20:01,360 --> 02:20:04,560
Speaker 1: would head off in some direction or another, making a ruckus.

2828
02:20:05,000 --> 02:20:07,600
Speaker 1: I would get excited all over again, thinking that I

2829
02:20:07,680 --> 02:20:10,240
Speaker 1: might still get my chance to see a lion up close.

2830
02:20:10,680 --> 02:20:14,200
Speaker 1: But each time the dog would return, having lost interest

2831
02:20:14,320 --> 02:20:19,119
Speaker 1: in what was becoming an increasingly cold trail. Finally, Joe

2832
02:20:19,200 --> 02:20:22,160
Speaker 1: and Floyd suggested that we start the long walk back

2833
02:20:22,240 --> 02:20:25,640
Speaker 1: toward camp. We all had to be somewhere the next day.

2834
02:20:26,440 --> 02:20:30,360
Speaker 1: I walked away in silence, disappointed that I was unable

2835
02:20:30,440 --> 02:20:33,320
Speaker 1: to learn whether it was challenging to shoot a lion

2836
02:20:33,480 --> 02:20:36,240
Speaker 1: out of a tree. Getting to that final moment of

2837
02:20:36,320 --> 02:20:40,520
Speaker 1: truth had been quite simply too challenging.