WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 21 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.480 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:06.199 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:09.400 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:13.239 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:15.800 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.959 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:27.320 can make your own decisions. Welcome back to it could 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:31.600 happen here, a podcast about things falling apart and occasionally 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.720 even about how to put some other things back together. Um. 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:38.440 Today we're gonna be talking about something that is increasingly 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:41.320 a part of what we like to call the crumbles 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:45.240 around here, which is the health care system in this country, 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:48.120 in the hospital system in this country as it uh 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:51.400 kind of gets crunched by covid. Um. And we're gonna 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:54.920 particularly talk about a really critical aspect of our entire 0:00:55.000 --> 0:00:57.200 medical infrastructure that a lot of people don't know about 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:01.320 traveling nurses. Uh. And with me today is our guest, 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:04.520 and and you are a traveling nurse from New York 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:07.600 to California all around the country. Um, thanks for being 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:11.240 on the show. Glad to be here. Yeah. So I 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:15.240 live in Colorado and I was a regular staff nurse 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:18.920 UM until COVID hit. And you know, at that time, 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:23.640 we expected it to crunch everywhere. UM, but my home hospital, 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:27.320 like many places that worked on the coast, UM ended 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:30.120 up being really empty when everybody locked down and stopped 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:33.080 getting into car accidents and going to parties and all 0:01:33.080 --> 0:01:34.840 of the other things that bring people into the e 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:37.200 R and I se use UM. So at that time, 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:39.880 i quit my full time job and went to New 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:42.880 York as a travel nurse UM. And then I've been 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:46.320 dancing around hotspots since then. So New York, Texas, Ohio, 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:50.720 rural New Mexico. UM. I just finished my third contract 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:54.280 in California. I've been up to Oregon. So UM, I've 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:57.000 seen the health care system working and not working in 0:01:57.040 --> 0:02:00.720 a lot of different places, and also like how much 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:04.400 disparity there is different communities related to COVID as in 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:07.560 the health care that we can provide. Yeah, and I 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:09.120 am kind of before we move on to some of 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:12.000 the specific things going on with travel nurses, what is 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:15.200 your sense of like how often are you in a 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:18.160 place and feel like, well, this the hospital system here, 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:20.680 this particular hospital they're they're like right on the edge 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:25.520 of a breaking point most of the time. Okay, that's 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:31.160 good to know where your seatbelts, folks. Yeah, I mean, 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:35.320 particularly since everyone was able to get vaccinated right, Like 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:39.320 to me, I really feel like that that that point 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:41.440 of like the tipping point of like the quote unquote 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:45.160 crumbles kind of like after everybody was was able to 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:48.560 get their second vaccination UM, and we had so much 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:51.560 hope last May and June and things were reopening and 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:53.320 it was kind of like, Wow, things could go back 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:57.919 to normal. UM, and then like, I don't believe that's 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:01.600 going to happen. And since and I've seen so much 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:04.280 more despair in my coworkers, and I've heard about so 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:09.359 many more healthcare suicides UM staff, nurses, travel nurses, arties, 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:14.000 other ancillary people, and you know, the kind of running joke, 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:16.440 and a lot of workplaces is like, well, I hope 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:18.440 I test positive for COVID because that would be better 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:21.200 than coming into work another day. Yeah, alright, I hope 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:22.560 I get hit by a car so I don't have 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:25.520 to come in your job, I think, is what a 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:29.200 lot of people would the people who you know are 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:34.240 reasonable human beings and see what you're doing is incredibly necessary. 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:36.520 Find that would find the work to be something of 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:39.240 a nightmare. I mean, it sounds like horrific, UM, to 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:41.760 have to deal with this. I mean it's it's it's 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:44.520 not an easy job in the best of times being 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:47.400 a nurse. But like with COVID and stuff, it's it's 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:51.440 just there's so much else on y'all's plates. UM. And 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:53.400 one of the things that has happened over the course 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:57.040 of the last year or well almost two years now, UM, 0:03:57.120 --> 0:04:01.120 is that from January, the advertised pay rates for travel 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:05.560 nurses around the country have gone up by about sixty UM, 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:08.400 which in staffing firms of you know, increase their building 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:11.880 up hospitals by like so like this huge rays in 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:15.320 what um travel nurses are demanding and what is getting 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:21.320 paid out. And I think a reasonable person would go, well, yeah, 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:25.640 of course, UM. And yeah, I think anybody would go 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:29.120 any reasonable person would go, well, yeah, of course, you 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:31.680 guys deserve much more money than that for what you're 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:34.599 dealing with right now. UM. I have no problem with this, 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:36.800 But people who do have problems with this are the 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:41.840 American Hospital Association UM, among other folks. Generally the folks 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:43.840 who are seeing this primarily as a well, now we're 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:46.919 spending more money issue, as opposed to a hey maybe 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:51.520 we don't have enough nurses, right, Yeah, So I guess 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:54.280 I have maybe a couple of comments on that. So 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:57.800 one of the things about nurses, so if if you're 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:00.240 not in the travel field and you say want to 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:03.599 change hospitals, even if you're an experienced nurse, they will 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:05.920 take between a month and six months to go through 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:09.039 their hiring process and then they will give you a week, 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:13.000 two weeks, maybe four weeks of orientation. So that's a 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:16.120 long process to hire a nurse. Normally, for me as 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:19.200 a travel nurse, I will talk to a recruiter, I 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:21.960 will say yes, I will be on the road somewhere 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:26.920 between four hours to twenty four hours later, I will 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:28.800 get to the hospital. I will do a bunch of 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:31.400 paperwork that is for compliance and makes no difference at all. 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:35.440 I will get between two and six hours of orientation, 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:38.200 which is basically, here's the bathroom, here's the store room, 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:39.960 this is what we're going to audit in the charts, 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:44.839 and then I'm expected to take care of complex actively 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:50.719 dying patients. So, so you know, people complain about how 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:53.120 much we're getting paid. But if you only have two 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:55.520 hours of like where's the bathroom? And like this is 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:57.279 how you get most of the time when you're spending 0:05:57.279 --> 0:05:59.720 with I T being like hey I need computer access, buddy, 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:02.760 and then there you are and you're in the thick 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:05.640 of it with no backup. You know, so you already 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:07.440 have to be an expert in your field, and you 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:09.679 have to be able to walk into an unfamiliar chaotic 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:13.760 situation and hit the ground running immediately. So yes, making 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:16.599 a hundred twenty bucks an hour is a lot of money, 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:19.359 But I don't know that that's so super unreasonable for 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:23.600 two hours of like yeah, it's the exit. Now take 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:25.760 care of people who are actively dying, and don't screw 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:28.520 it up. It's the way we're told the system is 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:30.960 supposed to work, right, Like, this is how capitalism is 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:33.640 supposed to function. The demand for something goes up, and 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:35.840 the demand for nursing his way the hell up, so 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:39.160 the price goes up. Um, if you believe in capitalism, 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:44.120 like one assumes these people who are responsible for you know, 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:46.160 paying you and are currently lobbying, So what's happening. I 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:48.400 should go back because we didn't note this but the 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:51.000 American Hospital Association and a number of other folks are 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:54.240 lobbying Congress right now to put a cap on the 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:59.920 amount of money that traveling nurses UM can uh can cane. 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:03.760 Even a number of UM congress people have said that 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:08.760 they're going to be looking into the issue. Several states Oregon, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Kansas, 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:13.000 and Kentucky have introduced legislation that's attempting to cap nurse 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:17.080 pay rates. So there's like this huge backlash attempting to 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:20.920 lock down the amount of money y'all can continue to 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:24.480 get paid UM because of all of the things this country, 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:27.640 I guess has money for the people dealing with the 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:30.360 I don't know what. I don't know how many millions 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:33.520 of additional sick and dying people UM are are are 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:36.320 kind of beyond what these folks are willing to shell 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:39.520 out for UM. And I got the size of that, 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:44.240 and I mean to clarify, so in a FEMA contract, 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:46.760 so what a lot of the contracts I take are, 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:51.400 So the nurse is making between a hundred and maybe 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:53.640 you also have a taxi stipend or you don't kind 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:56.120 of depending on how you are in that. And then 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:58.480 but the bill rate to the hospital is usually like, 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:05.200 so the legislation is against the agencies the agencies are 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:08.760 making between of course, the agency is then going to say, hey, 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:10.400 well we aren't going to pay you as much because 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:14.240 we still want the same cut. Yeah, my understanding, so 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:17.559 the trickle down effect is likely going to be travel 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:22.080 nurse wages. But my understanding is it's asking the FTC 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:27.600 to take enforcement against the travel nurse agencies because the agencies, 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:29.320 they're the ones that say they have the person on 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.000 the phone that says, hey, you have these credentials, we 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:34.120 want to send you to this hospital yes, or now 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:37.000 we've got this hotel arranged or we don't or you 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:38.560 know those types of and we're going to do this 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:40.719 type of on boarding. So they have their own kind 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:44.920 of infrastructure and they take, you know, half of the cut, 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:47.800 and some of those people are making a lot of 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:50.640 money too. Yeah, And it seems like it's kind of 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:53.520 the situation where the way this is being framed, they're 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:55.360 trying to crack down on these people who are kind 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:57.920 of profiteering or could be argued to be profiteering off 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:01.320 the situation um rather than trying to cap the amount 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:04.360 that the nurses can make so to speak, or at 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:07.839 least not by as much, but the overall effect will 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:10.360 be that because of the way these companies work, y'all 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:14.800 will still wind up making less money. Um yeah, how 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:18.600 um within the traveling nurse community, what is kind of 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:21.360 where are people right now with this? Like? What is 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:24.560 what is kind of the mood? Um? So? I think 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:27.040 there's a couple of things to note. So in the 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:31.360 FEMA contracts, they're usually sixty to seventy two contracts, so 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:33.400 you're working back to back to back to back, so 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:37.880 I'll do eight weeks sometimes. And most people are not 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:41.120 white women like me. This is mostly first and second 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:45.040 generation immigrants and generally people of color. Um So, these 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:47.800 are not people that are saving for Lamborghinis. These are 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:49.880 people that are getting off their student loans because a 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:52.400 lot of them went to private nursing schools because that 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:54.640 was kind of what was accessible to them because of 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:58.760 all of the disparity and education and opportunities. These are 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:01.240 people that are trying to pay off their mortgages. These 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:04.880 are people who are paying off their parents houses. Um So, 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:08.360 this kind of idea that like nurses are greedy is 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:11.880 I think really unfair because most of us are just 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:15.240 trying to, like, you know, make a life that works. 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:18.600 And also, you can't do eight hour contracts fifty two 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:21.400 weeks out of the year. No, I mean doing it 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:24.839 for any extended period of time. I've I've worked those 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:32.760 kinds of hours in a generally less stressful working environment. Um. 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:36.160 And it like it breaks you down, um over time, 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:39.160 like you you can't do that at any time in 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:42.080 your life for one thing like um, and you can't 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:44.160 do that forever. And it sounds like this is kind 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:46.240 of a lot of people are taking it as like 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:49.240 this is an opportunity. I can get my parents out 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:51.560 of debt, I can I can get a house, Um, 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:53.199 I can say for my kids to I can pay 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:55.880 off my own college. Like it's a chance for a 0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:59.720 lot of these people by putting in an unbelievable amount 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:04.080 of f to get ahead. Uh. And I can't can't 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:08.320 even imagine the frustration at seeing so many people be like, well, no, 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:11.440 not so fast. And I mean one of the things 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:16.000 that people are bringing up is right like it in 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:18.800 the same way that you know, we struggle to want 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:22.160 to pass minimum wage laws for the undocumented immigrants that 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:24.960 pick our food, and you know, support this infrastructure that 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:27.920 is totally unseen now that we have you know what, 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:31.880 is mostly forstance second generation immigrants that are working these 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:36.880 FEMA contracts, Like, you're targeting a section of the population 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:39.280 that are not the people that have doubled tripled their 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:41.719 wealth in the pandemic, right, Like, these are not all 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:44.520 of the people that got the small business loans that 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:48.600 didn't need them and you know and have are just 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:51.280 putting all of that money into stock, right is there? Not? 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:54.600 These are people who just want a middle class American 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:58.640 dream and we're working, will work really really hard for it. 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:03.000 And I mean there these are people who are asking, 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:05.800 can I have the thing we're all promised? If I 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:09.080 spend eighty hours a week watching people, in a lot 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:13.240 of cases choke out their last fucking breaths, is that okay? 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:15.800 And a lot of people are saying, oh, of course, 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:19.120 not right. And you know, so we're taking care of 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:21.319 dying people while we're getting yelled at at the phone 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:24.040 of like, is cursing a lot on the show or 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:27.240 no fucking lutely yes, of course. Yeah. I mean I 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:29.720 had a family member saying, you're fucking imprisoning her on 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:31.960 a ventilator I'm going to come for you. Where do 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:37.000 you fucking live? You know we have to get security involved. Um, 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:39.720 you know, we get death threats. I've had people like 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:44.120 threatened to find where I live and raped me. And 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:50.480 so I mean, yeah, enough of a race taking care 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:53.640 of your dying loved one who also probably would say 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:55.280 those same things to me because I would say, hey, 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:57.880 please be vaccinated and they would say fuck you. But 0:12:57.920 --> 0:12:59.559 I'm still going to do everything I can to take 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:01.559 care of those um and I'm gonna endure this abuse, 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:03.920 and like, yeah, if I'm going to leave my home 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:06.240 and the safety of a hospital that works and go 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:10.280 into these total cluster fucks of hospitals where the educator 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:12.800 has left, the manager has left, the director has left, 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:16.560 so there's no leadership. It's travelers, some of which are great, 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:19.120 some of which are also hot messes, and try and 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:20.920 to take care of these people. Then like, yes, I 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:24.040 want to be paid accordingly for it. Now would I 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:29.319 trade that for a social um a social safety net 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:32.000 of health insurance because I have to get private health insurance, 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:36.280 which is shady. Um, I don't get any disability insurance. 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:38.719 I have no stick. Leave right because you're you're you're 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:41.920 a pinch hitter. You're not like salary anywhere. Yeah, but 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:46.040 would I trade this high salary for a social safety net? Personally, 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:51.480 I would yes, But I mean nobody's gonna say, like, yes, 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:53.400 you will be able to retire with dignity if you 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:56.200 play by all of these rules. They don't believe that 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:58.640 I want to make the money. Yeah, it's I mean, 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:00.679 we're all always in this kind and I like, yes, 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:03.439 soccer way as much as you can while it's coming situation. 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:07.200 And she's especially if you're especially if you're doing something 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:10.920 you're gonna need to recover from later, right, Like this 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:15.160 is I I you know, I've I've done overseas work. 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:18.720 I understand kind of the nature of like trauma. And 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:21.320 while you're doing the job at the rate you're doing it, 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:24.200 you're also like pushing off a day of reckoning mentally, 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:29.920 and not having a cushion of savings helps with that. Yeah, 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:31.920 Like in the middle of it, you're in it, and 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:35.480 then you know, sometimes it's weeks, sometimes it's months. Um. 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:38.200 I hiked the Colorado Trail for mental health, and half 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:41.280 of those nights I had I See you nightmares. So 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:44.080 I was in these beautiful the middle of lower places 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:45.960 where everything was quiet. I would wake up with all 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:48.200 of the beeps and people dying in my head night 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:51.840 after night after night. You know, yeah, I mean yeah, 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:54.040 I'm angry that they don't want to compensate me for that, 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:56.320 because I mean, they're definitely not paying for my therapist. 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.840 They definitely like aren't giving me access to disability if 0:14:59.880 --> 0:15:04.360 I need it? Right? Like yeah, because obviously again, you're 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:08.040 you're a contractor. Effectively, Um, there's not like a union 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:11.640 for traveling nurses, is there? Or Am I wrong about that? No? So, 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:15.680 I mean the only thing you have each your negotiating power. Um. 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:18.960 So I have eight years of experience between emergency and 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:23.480 I see you, um, and a lot of very um, 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:26.920 big and highly regarded hospitals. So I'm a hot commodity 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:30.280 to them, so I can kind of pick and choose, um, 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:32.280 who I want to work with compared to someone that 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:36.400 has less desirable specialties. Not that those specialties don't also 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:39.000 work as hard, but they're just harder. They're easier to staff, 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:41.440 so therefore they're not It's a market thing. Sure, it's 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:45.160 a market things. I definitely don't believe that my specialties 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:50.040 are more like inherently valuable just in terms of the market. Um. 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:52.720 So you know, so I get I can I have 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:56.440 the luxury of turning down contracts that aren't what I want. 0:15:57.240 --> 0:15:59.880 But I mean, I have no idea what I'm walking into. 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:04.040 So on Monday, I'll walk into somewhere. Um, they said, 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:06.680 you'll do some paperwork, you'll get your orientation, you'll have 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:08.880 it'll all be it'll be a busy day and then 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:11.359 you'll be on your own. And I have no idea. 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:13.840 Sometimes you're oriented in one unit and you never see 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:17.360 that unit again. So um, and I you know, you 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.440 have no idea what you're walking into. And how how 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:24.400 long are these contracts? Generally? For so, before COVID, the 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:29.200 standard nursing contract was thirteen weeks UM. Since COVID, a 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:31.120 lot of them are shorter. And I've only done in 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:33.800 short contracts because if it's a decent place, then I 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:36.920 can renew and stay longer usually, and if it's a 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:39.480 bad place, then I'm pretty happy to get out early. Um. 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:43.280 So I do between four and eight week contracts, and 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:47.080 I usually do sixty plus hours a week. Is there 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:51.160 any kind of like organization that you've seen come together 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:54.200 a little more between people who are doing this this 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:56.720 gig since you don't have kind of representation. Is that 0:16:56.840 --> 0:16:59.440 something that started to take form in the last two 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:02.440 years since COVID. I mean there's definitely a lot of 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:08.200 talk about it. Um. I think like those of us 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:12.000 that started traveling since the pandemic, you know, I would 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:14.280 say that I've only done crisis contracts, like I've never 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:17.720 done a normal thirteen week, thirty six hour a week, 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:22.360 not crisis assignment, like I've only gone into the ship 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:26.080 show hot spots, um. And so therefore, like my needs 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:29.320 and desires are different than somebody who likes that previous lifestyle. 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:32.120 So in some ways it's a little bit hard for 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:35.720 us to kind of agree on common goals because we 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:37.640 have a lot of different you know, we're a very 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:42.120 diverse group of nurses. Um. Definitely, the Million Nurse March 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:44.680 is kind of a step towards that. Tell me about 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:46.600 that what what is this? Because I just learned about 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:50.240 this pretty recently. Yeah, so I dropped off the grid 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:52.560 for the last five days, which was fantastic for me, 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:56.400 but it means I'm also just starting to figure it out. UM. 0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:59.480 So the kind of general idea is that you know 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:02.640 we have I think, uh, I'm gonna hopefully I don't 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:04.840 get it wrong. Four millions some nurses in the country, 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:06.480 A huge number of nurses in the country and a 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:10.240 huge number of dropping out. Um, you know, hundreds of 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:13.040 thousands quit last year. They I think one estimate is 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:16.400 five hundred thousand may quit this year. And we were 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:20.440 just so people know, tens of thousands of nurses understaffed 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:25.439 before COVID nation. Yes, right, right, um, And you know, 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:27.960 I think one of the things to understand too is 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:31.240 that like if you work, I don't know, what's what's 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:33.840 the normal type of job that people work. I don't know. 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:35.640 If you work at the d m V A bookman, 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:38.000 Oh right, If you work at the d m V 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:40.760 and the d m V is slow, you will still 0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:42.720 stay there eight hours and you'll just get paid for 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:45.080 your eight hours. If you are a normal nurse and 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:47.000 you work thirty six hours and the e R is 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:49.520 running slow, they could say we're just canceling you for 0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:50.920 the rest of the day, go home, we won't play 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:53.760 you for those class six hours. And so like we've 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:58.760 always had pretty like flexible, like we've never had a minute. 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:01.040 Most of the places i've worked. I've never had guaranteed hours, 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:03.200 and so one of the reasons to go to travel 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:05.080 contracts to is also so you can at least have 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:07.600 guaranteed hours. So there's a lot of kind of protections 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:11.440 that nurses have never really had, like guaranteed hours UM, 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:15.480 like staff ratios, so some states California and organ or 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:18.200 um two of them. If you go into the ice U, 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:20.400 which is the highest level of care, so people are 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:24.360 actively dying, actively unstable, things can go bad within seconds. 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:28.879 Usually it's a one nurse will have two patients UM, 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:31.080 which is pretty much all you can handle because they're 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:34.040 on multiple drips, multiple types of life. The part keeping 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:37.520 them alive so ventilators UM being the one that we 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:41.960 see the most UM, and it's really your responsibility to 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:44.920 know every inch of that person's body UM and everything 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:46.520 going on with them, and you really direct a lot 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:50.000 of their care UM. So two to one kind of 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:52.840 makes a lot of sense since the pandemic and not 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:55.360 having enough nurses, sometimes that slid to three to one 0:19:55.880 --> 0:19:59.240 or even in bad situations four to one. So one 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:03.560 of the statistic x that UM one of the kind 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:08.160 of nurse influencers and comedians, nurse Blake talks about UM. 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:11.399 Is that for every additional patient that a nurse takes on, 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:13.199 and I believe he's talking about med starch, not I 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:18.159 see that that patients UM mortality increases by seven percent. 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:22.680 So yeah, so asking a nurse to do more with 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:26.239 less is not just like hey, just suck it up, 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:30.240 be busier. This is actively contributing to people's disability and 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:33.959 early deaths. So one of the things that the millionairese 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:37.800 march Um wants to talk about is man man dated 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:40.679 staffing ratios. So I see you would be two to 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:43.960 one med starch is usually four to one. I think 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:46.439 you are. They're asking for three to one UM. So 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:50.240 these have been studied by the American Nurses Association UM 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:55.560 and other sort of UM nursing organizations UM. And not 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:57.800 only do they make your job as a nurse so 0:20:57.880 --> 0:20:59.760 much better because we go into nursing because we want 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:02.640 to say things and take care of people. We want 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:05.679 good outcomes, right Like, you don't go into nursing to 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:08.000 just run around with your head cut off and watch 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:11.359 everyone die, right Like, that's terrible. You go into nursing 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:13.520 because you want the people to get better under your care, 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:15.600 and you want to be able to give them that, 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:17.840 and so when you're asked to take care of more 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:21.040 patients than you're able to, you're not able to do that, 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:25.000 and it just crushes you. UM. So not only is 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:28.439 it better for nurse satisfaction, it also saves patients lives 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:33.000 and also prevents things that will give cause lasting disability 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:37.840 like ventilator associated pneumonia or bed sores or delirium, things 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:42.679 like that. So, you know, mandating UM patient ratios is 0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:45.200 one of the really big things that the million Nurse 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:47.880 marks is for UM. There's a lot of talk about 0:21:47.920 --> 0:21:52.000 pay and living wages. You know, like every section. Housing 0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:55.240 prices and inflation have gone through the roof because you've 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:57.439 got to like be renting a spot whenever you're like 0:21:57.480 --> 0:22:00.720 the hospital only putting you up right well, and fir 0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:04.159 staff nurses to write like if you're you know, maybe 0:22:04.160 --> 0:22:06.760 you're maybe they gave you a two percent raise, but hey, 0:22:06.800 --> 0:22:11.000 rent increase UM. I used to be on the interview 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:12.920 board at my old hospital and we would just tell 0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:16.320 people like, if you're moving to Denver as a single person, 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:18.320 we lose most of our nurses because they haven't looked 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:20.159 at housing. So like they'll accept a job, and then 0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:21.760 they'll look for a place to live and be like, oh, 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:24.600 I can't afford to live here. So hey, like, I mean, 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:26.679 we can't ask if you're single moving here, but like 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:28.720 you probably can't afford to live here with what we're 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:35.440 going to pay you. I mean, cool, I I It's 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:39.880 just it's so eternally frustrating that, like the one thing 0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:43.119 that everybody, when you sit them down, agrees is in 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:48.600 controvertibly necessary medical care. Um. We can agree on a 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:51.600 lot of things, but not how to make sure that 0:22:51.680 --> 0:22:55.320 people doing it have a good quality of life and 0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:57.920 good income. Like we can we have all these fun, 0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:00.840 fun rules that make it possible to our X number 0:23:00.880 --> 0:23:03.800 of thousand dollars for a dose of insulin um, But 0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:05.760 we don't just have a law that's like, hey, if 0:23:05.960 --> 0:23:09.359 if you're working full time as a nurse, uh, maybe 0:23:09.520 --> 0:23:12.480 you shouldn't have to be housing insecure. I don't know 0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:14.680 how do you make that into a law, But it 0:23:14.720 --> 0:23:17.320 seems like there should be some option for a country 0:23:17.359 --> 0:23:20.320 that can make some of the things we make, Yeah, 0:23:20.440 --> 0:23:24.359 I mean tying wages to housing prices. It seems like, 0:23:24.480 --> 0:23:27.040 I don't know, not being an economist and not being 0:23:27.080 --> 0:23:29.679 an administrator, Like that sounds super easy to me, Like 0:23:31.320 --> 0:23:35.400 everybody gives a fifteen percent race. Like sure, I'm sure 0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:37.960 it's more complicated than that, but it seems super simple 0:23:38.000 --> 0:23:40.840 to send a guy around with a stick to threaten 0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:43.960 landlords when they raise rent. Like there's we could debate 0:23:44.000 --> 0:23:48.760 the answers to this. What do you think I mean, 0:23:48.960 --> 0:23:51.280 not not that like you have any sort of comprehensive 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:53.280 knowledge of all of the people doing this, but like, 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:56.760 do you think there's a possibility of like a wildcat strike, 0:23:56.840 --> 0:23:58.920 which is again for people who maybe aren't is when 0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:04.440 there's a strike of kers who are not unionized. Um, 0:24:04.480 --> 0:24:07.560 I mean to some extent, with everybody quitting to do 0:24:07.640 --> 0:24:10.360 travel nursing, it's not so different. I mean, some students 0:24:10.400 --> 0:24:16.120 have lost eight of their staff, right some Like when 0:24:16.119 --> 0:24:18.800 a unit says, oh, well, we lost of my staff, 0:24:18.840 --> 0:24:21.120 I'm kind of like, well you did better than most, 0:24:21.200 --> 0:24:26.080 you know. Um, So in some ways it's already happening. 0:24:26.119 --> 0:24:29.360 And in that same way, I am seeing hospitals give 0:24:29.400 --> 0:24:34.040 better extent incentives to their nurses that have stayed um 0:24:34.080 --> 0:24:38.560 either retention bonuses or um increasing bonuses for pick for 0:24:39.160 --> 0:24:42.080 core staff picking up extra shifts UM, or kind of 0:24:42.080 --> 0:24:45.240 other perks like increasing education benefits or things like that. 0:24:45.680 --> 0:24:48.800 So I think hospitals are responding to like, hey, we 0:24:48.800 --> 0:24:51.280 don't want to lose these people to traveling, Like can 0:24:51.400 --> 0:24:53.880 we tip the balance a little bit? And I think, 0:24:53.960 --> 0:24:57.399 you know, overall, hospital leadership is moving slower than they 0:24:57.400 --> 0:25:01.080 need to UM. But I mean at least they're moving 0:25:01.119 --> 0:25:03.840 a little bit. So I mean in that way, I 0:25:03.840 --> 0:25:06.760 can see a wildcat strike UM, just coming from the 0:25:06.840 --> 0:25:11.240 kind of labor forces at play UM. And I could 0:25:12.480 --> 0:25:14.960 and I mean there were one of the hospitals in 0:25:15.000 --> 0:25:18.679 the South, I think it was Alabama, all of their staff, 0:25:18.680 --> 0:25:23.679 their staff coordinated UM, so that the ship that was 0:25:23.760 --> 0:25:27.359 on agreed to stay late because you can't because abandoning patients, UM, 0:25:27.359 --> 0:25:29.320 you can put your license at risk. Right, So we 0:25:29.400 --> 0:25:31.760 all walked off in the middle of a shift and 0:25:31.800 --> 0:25:34.960 said fuck you to the hospital. Patients died then, like 0:25:35.080 --> 0:25:37.239 our licenses at risk. So we also have to kind 0:25:37.280 --> 0:25:40.280 of balance that a little bit. But there was a 0:25:40.359 --> 0:25:42.680 hospital they organized for the day shift basically to stay 0:25:42.720 --> 0:25:44.560 as late as they needed, and night shift all stood 0:25:44.600 --> 0:25:47.960 outside of the hospital and I wouldn't refuse to clock 0:25:48.040 --> 0:25:54.439 it in. So sometimes these things are happening in small levels. Um. Also, um, 0:25:54.440 --> 0:26:02.199 really interesting Yeah, Like um, I mean, and that is 0:26:02.200 --> 0:26:04.200 like such a tough thing to balance, just the idea 0:26:04.280 --> 0:26:07.560 that like, well, you are health care workers, like withholding 0:26:07.560 --> 0:26:09.680 your labor is a thing that's going to be necessary 0:26:09.680 --> 0:26:11.760 from time to time. There's also consequences for it that 0:26:11.840 --> 0:26:15.640 are not present if you're making I don't know, tires, 0:26:16.200 --> 0:26:20.439 you know. Yeah, And as much as teachers and nurses 0:26:20.440 --> 0:26:23.320 are the same, Like I don't think our country cares 0:26:23.359 --> 0:26:25.679 about educating children as much as it cares about their 0:26:25.680 --> 0:26:31.200 parents dying, you know, like for better or worse. Yeah, 0:26:31.240 --> 0:26:35.359 I mean, yeah, that's another subject. Um. Is there anything 0:26:35.400 --> 0:26:38.760 else you wanted to get into today? Um? Before we 0:26:38.760 --> 0:26:43.520 we close out for the for the episode, Um, I mean, 0:26:43.560 --> 0:26:45.600 if it's okay with you, and you can cut it 0:26:45.640 --> 0:26:48.560 if it's not. Um, you know, I try and tweet 0:26:48.600 --> 0:26:50.680 about kind of what's happening on the ground. Yeah, absolutely, 0:26:51.200 --> 0:26:54.600 and the things that I'm seeing. Um. And I'm mostly 0:26:54.640 --> 0:26:56.240 finished with a book about the first year on the 0:26:56.240 --> 0:26:58.639 front line and seven different hospitals and kind of the 0:26:58.680 --> 0:27:01.879 disparities between you know, critical access in New Mexico versus 0:27:01.880 --> 0:27:06.040 trauma hospitals in you know, the Bay Area and kind 0:27:06.080 --> 0:27:09.880 of what that first year looked like. UM. So if 0:27:09.880 --> 0:27:12.360 you want, you can follow me on Twitter. UM it's 0:27:12.440 --> 0:27:15.360 an A N N E like an of green Gables 0:27:15.480 --> 0:27:20.720 and R N which is when I started traveling nursaying, um, 0:27:20.760 --> 0:27:22.280 you know, and so that I kind of talked a 0:27:22.359 --> 0:27:24.800 little bit about like what I'm seeing and what's going on. UM. 0:27:24.840 --> 0:27:27.119 I was recently in an e er where you know, 0:27:27.680 --> 0:27:30.960 people often had to stay outside under the heat lamps 0:27:31.040 --> 0:27:33.560 for thirty hours waiting for a hospital bed just because 0:27:33.560 --> 0:27:36.439 everything was packed so they couldn't even come inside the 0:27:36.480 --> 0:27:39.520 hospital and they were you know, waiting, um to get 0:27:39.560 --> 0:27:43.840 their appendix out and things like that. Again, where are 0:27:43.840 --> 0:27:47.679 your seatbelts in the helmet? Be real, be real careful 0:27:47.760 --> 0:27:51.400 right now, guys, right UM? And I mean I think 0:27:51.440 --> 0:27:54.359 the other thing is the blood shortage. UM. So most 0:27:54.400 --> 0:27:57.159 hospitals are revising their guidelines of who won't get a 0:27:57.160 --> 0:28:00.080 blood transfusion, so you now have to be much more 0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:04.040 critical before they will give you a blood transfusion. So, UM, 0:28:04.080 --> 0:28:06.640 there's a lot of politics around blood donation, but if 0:28:06.680 --> 0:28:10.639 you feel like you can donate blood, um, it's really 0:28:10.680 --> 0:28:15.920 desperately needed, and people are gonna where your seats because 0:28:15.920 --> 0:28:18.080 people are really going to legitimately die because we run 0:28:18.119 --> 0:28:21.560 out of blood. Yeah, um boy, how do you please 0:28:21.560 --> 0:28:24.720 wear your seatbelts? Folks? Um, just just hunker down for 0:28:24.760 --> 0:28:27.800 a little while. No, no new risky experiments in life 0:28:27.880 --> 0:28:31.520 for just a minute. Not the time to take up skydiving. 0:28:31.880 --> 0:28:34.800 Yeah yeah, maybe avoid that. Maybe you don't go skiing. 0:28:35.240 --> 0:28:38.239 Uh if you haven't gone skiing before. Um, I just 0:28:38.280 --> 0:28:41.160 did that and broke my wrist because I'm I'm exactly 0:28:41.200 --> 0:28:44.560 as dumb as the people I'm trying to warn. And 0:28:44.560 --> 0:28:46.920 then I guess just check in with your mental with 0:28:47.000 --> 0:28:49.640 your the mental health of your health care workers, because 0:28:49.640 --> 0:28:53.360 I mean, so many people have you know, I think 0:28:53.360 --> 0:28:55.120 a lot of us are dealing with at least passive 0:28:55.160 --> 0:28:57.160 sort of like puck. Maybe I should just drive off 0:28:57.200 --> 0:28:59.360 the road instead of going into work today sort of thoughts, 0:28:59.480 --> 0:29:02.120 you know. And oh, for a lot of us, that's 0:29:02.160 --> 0:29:04.360 just definitleeting thought and then we get our ship together. 0:29:04.840 --> 0:29:06.760 But for some people it's going to be more than that. 0:29:06.960 --> 0:29:10.240 And you know, nursing is one of those things where 0:29:10.240 --> 0:29:13.920 people have to find themselves by their career and they 0:29:13.960 --> 0:29:16.560 need people in their lives, saying like, if you are 0:29:16.600 --> 0:29:19.080 never a nurse again, you are still valued, you are 0:29:19.080 --> 0:29:23.480 still loved. Just being alive, it's enough, and this is 0:29:23.480 --> 0:29:25.959 how you know we can help take care of you 0:29:26.040 --> 0:29:27.920 if you need to quit for three months, you know, 0:29:29.000 --> 0:29:32.880 um and supporting people with their intrinsic value rather than 0:29:32.920 --> 0:29:35.760 like you are only productive and valuable because you were 0:29:35.800 --> 0:29:37.720 there saving lives. Because I think a lot of us 0:29:37.800 --> 0:29:39.480 really get stuck in that, and a lot of us 0:29:39.480 --> 0:29:42.840 are drawn into nursing because we feel some lack of 0:29:43.000 --> 0:29:45.640 worthiness without it. You know, well, that's the hard thing 0:29:45.640 --> 0:29:47.920 to get other people to do, because in part this 0:29:48.040 --> 0:29:51.400 is a society where we just have such generally crummy 0:29:51.440 --> 0:29:54.040 attitudes towards mental health. But like we're great at at 0:29:54.120 --> 0:29:56.959 saying things like, oh, you know, there's a pandemic. Our 0:29:57.040 --> 0:29:59.720 healthcare workers are heroes. You're all heroes because of the 0:30:00.200 --> 0:30:02.280 that you're doing the work makes you a hero, as 0:30:02.280 --> 0:30:05.720 opposed to saying, hey, thank you for doing that. I 0:30:05.760 --> 0:30:07.840 know things are still fucked up right now, but if 0:30:07.920 --> 0:30:10.480 you decide you gotta like take a break or whatever, 0:30:10.880 --> 0:30:14.240 you know, you're you're you're that doesn't mean you like 0:30:14.320 --> 0:30:17.160 what you did was still wonderful and you're still great 0:30:17.200 --> 0:30:19.120 and valuable, and maybe the best thing is for you 0:30:19.160 --> 0:30:22.080 to take that break and not drive yourself off of 0:30:22.080 --> 0:30:27.720 a cliff. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's harder to get people 0:30:27.720 --> 0:30:30.760 to like way of banners that say outside of their 0:30:30.760 --> 0:30:39.160 apartment complexes, banging on pots to like let healthcare workers 0:30:39.200 --> 0:30:41.160 know that no matter what they do, their valued members 0:30:41.200 --> 0:30:45.880 of the community that people love. Um. But yeah, all right, well, 0:30:45.920 --> 0:30:48.720 and thank you so much for talking with us today. UM, 0:30:48.760 --> 0:30:53.720 I hope uh you you hold together and help the 0:30:53.720 --> 0:30:55.680 people in your life hold together, which is all any 0:30:55.720 --> 0:30:59.600 of us can really do other than we're a seatbelt. Yeah, 0:31:00.080 --> 0:31:02.000 thank you for being a part of the conversation, and 0:31:02.120 --> 0:31:04.600 thank you for you know, listening to hard things. And 0:31:04.640 --> 0:31:07.400 you know that's one thing that I think we really 0:31:07.400 --> 0:31:10.080 appreciate it as to people who will actually listen with 0:31:10.160 --> 0:31:13.880 open hearts and and we'll witness this with us so 0:31:14.000 --> 0:31:30.560 that we're not alone in it. It could happen. Here 0:31:30.960 --> 0:31:33.800 is the podcast that you're listening to right now. I'm 0:31:33.920 --> 0:31:37.040 Robert Evans. All right, that's that's my job done. What 0:31:37.080 --> 0:31:40.160 are we what are we doing? What are we doing today? Hey? 0:31:40.200 --> 0:31:47.280 What's up? Hey? Andrew? Back at it again with another podcast. UM. Today, 0:31:47.320 --> 0:31:50.400 we're doing something a little bit different from the previous 0:31:50.440 --> 0:31:53.680 episodes that I've done. We're having a bit more open 0:31:53.760 --> 0:31:59.160 discussion about sitting book that has been passed around for 0:32:00.360 --> 0:32:06.720 about a decade now and has polarized UM members of 0:32:06.760 --> 0:32:12.280 the anarchist community. UM for it that way, UM today 0:32:12.320 --> 0:32:17.120 we'll be talking about the book the infamous uh polemic 0:32:18.080 --> 0:32:25.640 Desert by Anonymous. For those who uh, you know, not 0:32:25.800 --> 0:32:33.440 aware of this extremely controversial text. Desert is a nihilist 0:32:33.600 --> 0:32:37.360 anarchist text for this published in two thousand eleven that 0:32:37.600 --> 0:32:42.160 is mainly directed at other anarchists and seeks to address 0:32:42.320 --> 0:32:47.880 issues of climate collapse and revolution. It became somewhat of 0:32:47.880 --> 0:32:50.520 a meme to tell folks to read Dessert. I'm not 0:32:50.560 --> 0:32:52.640 sure when that was, but I just remember scene. It's 0:32:52.640 --> 0:32:58.920 a lot um I think in yeah around read Desert 0:32:58.960 --> 0:33:03.960 became a name, yeah yeah, all over Twitter and Instagram 0:33:04.000 --> 0:33:11.480 and credit. But of course, being a thing that exists 0:33:11.480 --> 0:33:15.400 on the Internet, people who naturally became torn on the 0:33:15.440 --> 0:33:18.240 subject of it. And so there are a lot of 0:33:18.280 --> 0:33:23.640 perspectives and opinions and think pieces about desert, some more 0:33:23.720 --> 0:33:26.480 or less accurate than others. But we are here to 0:33:26.880 --> 0:33:31.200 discuss the book, our personal experiences reading it, things we 0:33:31.200 --> 0:33:34.320 think it gets right and wrong, and what we could 0:33:34.320 --> 0:33:41.960 potentially learn going forward. So I would say the floor 0:33:42.040 --> 0:33:49.200 is yours, whoever wants to go first. I mean, I'm 0:33:49.240 --> 0:33:52.800 a huge fan of the quote that the book takes it, 0:33:53.000 --> 0:33:55.080 or that the that it takes its name from, which 0:33:55.080 --> 0:33:58.000 comes from you know, Tacitus, who was a dude writing 0:33:58.120 --> 0:34:01.440 in the Roman period um the exact quote that it 0:34:01.480 --> 0:34:05.200 comes from his and he's talking. Tacitus is talking about 0:34:05.200 --> 0:34:08.040 the Roman Empire, robbers of the world. Now that the 0:34:08.080 --> 0:34:11.840 earth is insufficient for their all devastating hands, they probe 0:34:11.880 --> 0:34:14.680 even the sea. If their enemy is rich, they are greedy. 0:34:14.719 --> 0:34:17.719 If he is poor, they thirst for dominion. Neither East 0:34:17.840 --> 0:34:21.080 nor West has satisfied them alone. Of mankind, they are 0:34:21.120 --> 0:34:25.160 equally covetous of poverty and wealth, robbery, slaughter, and plunder. 0:34:25.200 --> 0:34:28.120 They falsely name empire. They make a desert and they 0:34:28.160 --> 0:34:33.560 call it peace. Huh, good ass quote. It is a 0:34:34.280 --> 0:34:38.280 It is a solid yeah. And obviously I think people 0:34:38.360 --> 0:34:41.520 living in the shadows of every empire that's ever existed 0:34:41.600 --> 0:34:45.840 can identify with that quote. Um, it's it's a powerful 0:34:46.080 --> 0:34:51.400 kind of central idea to hang your extended essay. I 0:34:51.400 --> 0:34:53.000 don't really know what the best term to refer to 0:34:53.040 --> 0:34:57.160 it as all. It's it's it's a long essay. Yeah, 0:34:57.160 --> 0:35:00.239 it's a very long essay. As we talked about kind 0:35:00.280 --> 0:35:03.399 of coming into this, it's extremely two thousand tens um 0:35:03.760 --> 0:35:07.760 three Arab spring pre all the big uprisings and revolts 0:35:07.800 --> 0:35:13.879 we had in twenty nineteen and UM, there's definitely some 0:35:13.880 --> 0:35:16.799 stuff that it gets very right. And I think kind 0:35:16.840 --> 0:35:19.239 of one of the ways in which it's had an 0:35:19.280 --> 0:35:22.360 impact on me is kind of I've I've thought about 0:35:22.880 --> 0:35:25.799 what happens to sort of culture as the result of 0:35:26.440 --> 0:35:29.960 this kind of Hollywood engine that is heavily tied up 0:35:30.000 --> 0:35:34.400 with the United States military Industrial complex, UM, as a 0:35:34.480 --> 0:35:38.359 process of desertification of ideas and the ability to like 0:35:39.040 --> 0:35:43.520 conceive of of of new futures. UM. That said, I 0:35:43.920 --> 0:35:47.680 I don't really I haven't reread it in a very 0:35:47.719 --> 0:35:52.080 long time, UM, and haven't really felt UM called to 0:35:52.680 --> 0:35:55.640 in in many ways because I do think I don't know, 0:35:55.880 --> 0:35:57.640 I think there's an extent to which it's been kind 0:35:57.680 --> 0:36:01.839 of left behind. UM. Yeah. Yeah, some of the things 0:36:01.840 --> 0:36:05.160 that have happened since I think, yeah, um, I will 0:36:05.200 --> 0:36:12.240 say that as someone who really came into my owners 0:36:12.239 --> 0:36:19.560 an archist in although I had identified with it before, um, 0:36:19.680 --> 0:36:21.839 when I had read the book. Um, I think it 0:36:21.880 --> 0:36:26.479 was in late late so when they read the book 0:36:26.600 --> 0:36:31.080 first time I read it, and honestly, um, there was 0:36:31.120 --> 0:36:36.480 some good, some bad, some some very outdated stuff, and 0:36:36.520 --> 0:36:40.120 also some stuff that I don't know. Maybe the author 0:36:40.160 --> 0:36:46.120 felt it was like groundbreaking at the time, but you know, 0:36:46.239 --> 0:36:55.120 at this present stage just feels like common knowledge sense, 0:36:55.239 --> 0:36:59.040 you know, I mean it was. It was groundbreaking in 0:36:59.120 --> 0:37:02.600 a way for like climate realism, right, like this was 0:37:02.920 --> 0:37:05.919 this was written before you know, this is written before 0:37:05.920 --> 0:37:10.120 climate levy thing. This is written before um, the uninhabitable Earth. 0:37:10.239 --> 0:37:12.120 This was written before a lot of kind of the 0:37:12.200 --> 0:37:16.680 texts that view climate change is an absolute like this 0:37:16.719 --> 0:37:20.440 was written one year before Hyper Objects. Is really interesting actually, 0:37:20.719 --> 0:37:22.600 because you know, the whole premence of that book is 0:37:22.640 --> 0:37:25.759 that climate changes is done, like it happened, where we're 0:37:25.760 --> 0:37:28.320 like there's no turning back the clock. And the desert 0:37:28.400 --> 0:37:31.160 was written even before that, like it was it was 0:37:31.200 --> 0:37:34.200 one of the first things. Now and of course it's 0:37:34.400 --> 0:37:36.560 it's it's much more niche, but like it was if 0:37:36.600 --> 0:37:38.400 I look, if I look back in books that have 0:37:38.480 --> 0:37:40.200 like impacted me, it was it's one of the first 0:37:40.239 --> 0:37:44.399 books like that came out, like timeline wise to take 0:37:44.440 --> 0:37:48.759 climate changes, like, yeah, it's there's no saving it, like 0:37:48.880 --> 0:37:51.279 there's no living in the two thousands, there's no living 0:37:51.280 --> 0:37:54.160 in the nineties. Again, it's like things are like the 0:37:54.200 --> 0:37:56.560 world's not going to end, but things are going to 0:37:56.640 --> 0:37:58.839 get worse, right, like and that, and that is kind 0:37:58.880 --> 0:38:01.680 of a big, big part of the book because it's 0:38:01.760 --> 0:38:04.520 it's also it's also not pro collapse like it it 0:38:04.520 --> 0:38:07.480 doesn't take. Collapse is an absolute. It doesn't take. It 0:38:07.760 --> 0:38:10.640 doesn't it doesn't subscribe to global collapse. And that's one 0:38:10.640 --> 0:38:13.360 of the misconceptions I think people have about them, Yeah, 0:38:13.520 --> 0:38:17.319 that they just assume it's like this collapse Dumorus like 0:38:17.520 --> 0:38:21.759 misscrupic kind of text, but which I did not read 0:38:21.800 --> 0:38:23.960 it as that. I first started around the same time 0:38:24.000 --> 0:38:26.439 you did, um and I read it as a part 0:38:26.440 --> 0:38:28.359 of a lot of books I was reading to prep 0:38:28.480 --> 0:38:30.440 for the show when we when we were writing our 0:38:30.440 --> 0:38:34.799 first five episodes on like on climate change and like 0:38:35.080 --> 0:38:37.120 the Crumbles. So I read it read it as a 0:38:37.120 --> 0:38:40.840 part of my kind of general research. And yeah, like 0:38:40.880 --> 0:38:43.160 at that point it was already kind of mimified to 0:38:43.239 --> 0:38:48.239 be like, you know, like an anarcho nihilist like Dumor Manifesto. 0:38:48.320 --> 0:38:50.960 And I read it and like, that's not what it's 0:38:51.040 --> 0:38:54.839 saying at all. It's actually once I read it, I 0:38:55.040 --> 0:38:57.160 was like, as we be taking it back at how 0:38:58.160 --> 0:39:02.880 how easily um popular perceptions of a piece of media 0:39:03.560 --> 0:39:08.160 good um, I mean honestly corrupted beyond recognition. Yeah, you know, 0:39:08.760 --> 0:39:10.479 like if people are a bunch of people are telling 0:39:10.520 --> 0:39:12.759 you know it's that or the other about is in 0:39:12.920 --> 0:39:17.040 text or whatever, you know, it's kind of shake it 0:39:17.080 --> 0:39:19.319 kind of shakes you up to like actually consumed for 0:39:19.320 --> 0:39:23.279 yourself and then realize, how do you all get that? Yeah? 0:39:23.440 --> 0:39:25.440 How did you read that out of it? It is 0:39:25.440 --> 0:39:27.200 really interesting because I'm not even sure if they did 0:39:27.200 --> 0:39:28.920 read out of it or if that was the perception 0:39:28.920 --> 0:39:30.520 they had going into it, so they read it through 0:39:30.560 --> 0:39:33.759 that lens, and that lens basically you know, changed the 0:39:33.800 --> 0:39:36.120 text in their head to fit that thing. Because yea, 0:39:36.200 --> 0:39:39.600 it is really interesting how how it is so associated 0:39:39.640 --> 0:39:43.080 with like doomeriism um yet if you like engage in 0:39:43.120 --> 0:39:45.719 good faith with the text. It's very much not a 0:39:45.760 --> 0:39:49.560 doomer manifesto anyway, although there are aspects of it that 0:39:49.840 --> 0:39:53.279 I am um that I think attitude wise that I 0:39:53.320 --> 0:39:55.160 am critical of, But I think Chris was going to 0:39:55.239 --> 0:39:57.760 say something, yeah. So it's just like I, I really 0:39:58.160 --> 0:40:00.719 I've always not liked this book, like read it back 0:40:00.719 --> 0:40:04.279 and I think she Dozeneen when it was first sort 0:40:04.320 --> 0:40:07.920 of like coming back, and I didn't like it then, 0:40:07.960 --> 0:40:09.640 And I re read it this morning, and I like 0:40:09.760 --> 0:40:12.640 it even less now than I did then, and I think, 0:40:12.680 --> 0:40:14.680 I think, I actually, I actually okay, So like I 0:40:14.960 --> 0:40:18.360 think it's true that most of the text doesn't do 0:40:18.440 --> 0:40:20.120 the doom or thing, but I think I understand where 0:40:20.160 --> 0:40:22.000 people got it from, because you know, you have quotes 0:40:22.040 --> 0:40:24.920 in this like uh here, here's one. Yet I can 0:40:24.920 --> 0:40:28.520 already hear the accusations from my own camp, accusations of 0:40:28.560 --> 0:40:31.880 deserting the cause of revolution, deserting the struggle for another world. 0:40:32.200 --> 0:40:35.839 Such accusations are correct, I would rejoin that such millinarian 0:40:35.880 --> 0:40:38.080 and progressive myths are at the core of the expansion 0:40:38.120 --> 0:40:40.880 of power. And this is this is what I really like, 0:40:41.080 --> 0:40:43.680 I think from an ecological perspective, it's sort of Okay, 0:40:44.200 --> 0:40:48.200 I strongly dislike Desert as an anarchist text because I 0:40:48.200 --> 0:40:50.520 think that's just wrong. I think I think, I think 0:40:50.680 --> 0:40:53.319 there's there there's there's there's an ingrained defeatism in it 0:40:53.320 --> 0:40:57.440 that is so strong that it it it just it 0:40:58.440 --> 0:41:01.320 like warps the author's perception of the past. Like you 0:41:01.719 --> 0:41:03.719 get these things where he's talking about these these kind 0:41:03.719 --> 0:41:06.000 of he's talking about like the you know, what you 0:41:06.040 --> 0:41:08.760 call the classical anarchist movement from roughly like eighteen seventy 0:41:08.880 --> 0:41:11.560 two really sort of ends with the defeat of the 0:41:11.560 --> 0:41:14.319 anarchists in Spain and like seven and and he you know, 0:41:14.360 --> 0:41:17.799 they say things like from Spain pre nineteen thirty six 0:41:17.800 --> 0:41:20.600 to the Jewish anarchists in North America, the illegalist of France, 0:41:20.640 --> 0:41:23.960 and the Italian anarchoscentity close to Argentina. The inhabitants of 0:41:23.960 --> 0:41:27.960 anarchist counter societies were always, by definition active minorities. The 0:41:28.040 --> 0:41:30.960 minorities may have gotten larger in an instructionary moments, but 0:41:31.000 --> 0:41:35.040 they remained that minorities always. And that's just wrong, It's 0:41:35.200 --> 0:41:39.400 it's factually wrong, like these these movements were not minorities, 0:41:39.440 --> 0:41:42.920 like the like the entire like the like the largest 0:41:43.040 --> 0:41:45.879 union in France was the siege like in the early 0:41:45.880 --> 0:41:50.200 ante hundred was the you see it that all all 0:41:50.239 --> 0:41:57.040 of the French, Spanish and Portuguese country speaking countries have 0:41:57.160 --> 0:41:58.960 a they have one union that's called the u g 0:41:59.080 --> 0:42:00.719 C and one union it's called CGT and I can't 0:42:00.760 --> 0:42:03.080 remember which ones which, but like like that was that 0:42:03.160 --> 0:42:04.719 was the largest union in France, and it was a 0:42:04.719 --> 0:42:07.400 syndicalist union, right like it was like and there's you 0:42:07.400 --> 0:42:10.000 know the same thing with Argentina, right for a like 0:42:10.040 --> 0:42:12.560 for a while, was the largest union in Argentina. And 0:42:12.600 --> 0:42:14.800 I think and this this is sort of my problem 0:42:14.840 --> 0:42:16.759 with this, which is that you know, this is a 0:42:16.840 --> 0:42:20.279 person who's basically like they talked about like they were 0:42:20.280 --> 0:42:22.080 born in the seventies and they've they've they're writing the 0:42:22.120 --> 0:42:25.680 steals in eleven in just the midst of the collapse 0:42:25.719 --> 0:42:28.640 of sort of like the complete and total destruction of 0:42:28.760 --> 0:42:30.759 the old anarchist movement, right, the anarchist movement that had 0:42:30.800 --> 0:42:34.760 been born out of sort of like the Zapatistas and 0:42:35.440 --> 0:42:39.800 the anti globalization movements. And they've been beaten so badly 0:42:40.480 --> 0:42:42.440 that you know, I mean, they were crushed, they were 0:42:42.520 --> 0:42:45.600 completely destroyed, and they've been beaten so badly that they 0:42:45.400 --> 0:42:49.359 they can't they literally can't imagine winning and think that 0:42:49.400 --> 0:42:55.040 like like revolution in general, like is essentially a secular theology. 0:42:55.040 --> 0:42:56.520 They repeat this over and over and over again. It's 0:42:56.560 --> 0:42:59.080 like revolution is theology, Revolution is a myth. And it's 0:42:59.400 --> 0:43:01.840 like and this is this is something that's just a 0:43:01.880 --> 0:43:04.200 product of of defeat. It's not a product of sort 0:43:04.200 --> 0:43:09.200 of taking seriously the conditions that are emerging around them. 0:43:09.239 --> 0:43:11.160 And you know, I was talking about this before the recording. 0:43:11.160 --> 0:43:15.399 It's like right after this is written, it's you get 0:43:15.440 --> 0:43:17.480 the movement of the squares, and then you get occupied, 0:43:17.920 --> 0:43:20.480 and it's like basically like every major city in the 0:43:20.520 --> 0:43:25.640 world goes into revolt. The revolts are anarchists inspired, and 0:43:25.640 --> 0:43:27.560 you know, and and desert, like this is why dessert 0:43:27.640 --> 0:43:30.520 vanishes for like six or seven years, because desert is 0:43:30.600 --> 0:43:33.720 a piece that's written like it's it's it's a piece 0:43:33.800 --> 0:43:37.080 that's that's only happens in a in a very specific 0:43:37.200 --> 0:43:39.879 part of a revolutionary cycle, which is when like every 0:43:39.960 --> 0:43:43.160 everything has been crushed, all resistance has been crushed, everyone's 0:43:43.200 --> 0:43:46.120 losing hope, and then everyone starts reading dessert again, and 0:43:46.160 --> 0:43:50.920 then the revolutions restart, and and at that point like 0:43:50.960 --> 0:43:54.080 once once once, there's like, you know, two thousand people 0:43:54.120 --> 0:43:57.480 in the streets again like fighting the cops. It becomes 0:43:57.600 --> 0:44:00.600 less and less sort of like like that, that part 0:44:00.640 --> 0:44:03.719 of its analysis becomes less and less relevant until you know, 0:44:03.800 --> 0:44:06.280 inevitably everyone like there's there's a defeat, and then everyone 0:44:06.360 --> 0:44:08.440 goes sort of like And I think I think that's 0:44:08.440 --> 0:44:10.920 why it has the duomer rep because it's it's it's 0:44:10.920 --> 0:44:13.200 the text that people read when you've been beaten in 0:44:13.239 --> 0:44:17.960 the streets. See, yeah, that's that's an interesting look at it, 0:44:18.000 --> 0:44:21.520 because I mean, I definitely agree with the revolution is 0:44:21.560 --> 0:44:24.320 an idea, like is a myth thing, like I I 0:44:24.800 --> 0:44:27.239 specifically within the context of the United States, which I 0:44:27.280 --> 0:44:29.600 believe that's what the books trying to mostly focus on. 0:44:30.000 --> 0:44:33.440 They do bring up other parts of the world and stuff. Um, 0:44:33.480 --> 0:44:37.040 but it's definitely written by in a by an American 0:44:37.800 --> 0:44:40.680 like citizen, and that that that is I mean, I 0:44:40.680 --> 0:44:45.440 mean that that could actually be wrong. Um, it may 0:44:45.480 --> 0:44:47.239 not be written by an American, but I in terms 0:44:47.280 --> 0:44:49.200 of reading it, it is kind of through like a 0:44:49.320 --> 0:44:52.560 very like Western lens of like revolutions not happening here. 0:44:53.040 --> 0:44:56.960 Um And I definitely sympathize and agree with that viewpoint. 0:44:57.200 --> 0:44:58.680 And I mean if if you're in a point of 0:44:58.719 --> 0:45:00.600 being like it was two US and eleven then occupied 0:45:00.640 --> 0:45:03.120 happened and like yeah, but occupied in But that that 0:45:03.239 --> 0:45:06.040 also fits like every every attempt has not succeeded in 0:45:06.080 --> 0:45:08.640 this country did to get any kind of big, meaningful 0:45:08.760 --> 0:45:14.680 change that we can push towards something that's like post capitalist. Um. So, yeah, 0:45:14.719 --> 0:45:16.640 I mean I do think I think it's it's it's 0:45:16.920 --> 0:45:21.279 it's mostly targeting people specifically like communists, um or marks 0:45:21.320 --> 0:45:24.160 Londonists who like are just waiting around for the revolution 0:45:24.239 --> 0:45:26.239 to happen and then don't do anything like that, right, 0:45:26.320 --> 0:45:29.040 that is that is the thing that's trying to But 0:45:29.040 --> 0:45:30.640 but but but but I think this is this is 0:45:30.719 --> 0:45:32.880 why it's a text that's like that's not good for 0:45:32.920 --> 0:45:36.680 the moment, because our our problem isn't that, like, like 0:45:37.080 --> 0:45:39.080 the problem right now isn't that there's no one like 0:45:39.120 --> 0:45:42.399 there's no uprising on the horizon, Like everyone's completely beaten down, 0:45:42.400 --> 0:45:44.440 no one's ever gonna go into his treats again. Our 0:45:44.520 --> 0:45:47.759 problem is that like there's just there's there's there's there's 0:45:47.800 --> 0:45:51.239 periodic uprisings everywhere, and every single time everyone is caught 0:45:51.280 --> 0:45:53.719 off guard, and every single time, no one is able 0:45:53.760 --> 0:45:56.160 to actually sort of mobilize off of it. And you know, 0:45:56.200 --> 0:45:59.520 like like like no no one, no one's been able 0:45:59.719 --> 0:46:03.920 to like pivoted into something that's actually like transformative. But but 0:46:03.800 --> 0:46:07.040 but but I think that that's a very different problem 0:46:07.160 --> 0:46:10.200 then the problem that desert is because desert has already 0:46:10.239 --> 0:46:13.560 abandoned the possibility that an uprising can win. That's I mean, 0:46:13.680 --> 0:46:18.360 it's yeah. And then let's specifically been the idea of 0:46:18.400 --> 0:46:21.120 like global revolution, right, that is, that is the thing 0:46:21.120 --> 0:46:24.799 that specifically targeting they're saying smaller specific they're saying like 0:46:24.840 --> 0:46:27.920 smaller local things actually can't succeed in a lot of ways. 0:46:28.200 --> 0:46:31.759 But they're trying to tie this idea of global revolution 0:46:31.880 --> 0:46:34.520 is like a pacifying idea, right, just waiting around for 0:46:34.520 --> 0:46:37.560 this to happen, and tying that to this at the 0:46:37.600 --> 0:46:39.880 time much more niche idea. Now it's now it's way 0:46:39.920 --> 0:46:43.040 more popular. But this idea of like global collapse and 0:46:43.080 --> 0:46:45.920 how people think if they can people think believing in 0:46:45.960 --> 0:46:49.120 global collapse is smarter than believing in global revolution. They 0:46:49.160 --> 0:46:52.000 think it's more realistic but the book saying no, this, 0:46:52.000 --> 0:46:54.200 this idea of global collapse actually falls under all the 0:46:54.280 --> 0:46:57.919 same issues that global revolution has. I think i'd want 0:46:57.960 --> 0:47:02.799 to um sort of comments here um with regard to 0:47:02.880 --> 0:47:06.880 like the defeat is sort of reading in the text. 0:47:07.440 --> 0:47:10.320 I understand that reading. Um. I mean personally, I distinguished 0:47:10.320 --> 0:47:13.480 been like defeatism and domerism, and I always think like 0:47:13.520 --> 0:47:17.480 my own personality and my own perspective kind of like 0:47:18.880 --> 0:47:23.120 inoculates me in a way from like adopting that kind 0:47:23.120 --> 0:47:27.440 of defeatist attitude towards um, you know, change. But I 0:47:27.480 --> 0:47:32.279 don't think the book is entirely um, you know, dismissive 0:47:32.560 --> 0:47:37.520 of like revolution. Um. It just I think the main 0:47:37.560 --> 0:47:39.719 thrust of it is that it's critical the idea of 0:47:39.760 --> 0:47:43.919 like one global revolution, one global collapse. What it really 0:47:43.960 --> 0:47:48.960 emphasizes is that, you know, climate change brings new possibilities 0:47:49.040 --> 0:47:54.160 for new anarchies plural to develop worldwide and response changing circumstances. 0:47:54.680 --> 0:47:58.360 But at the same time, you know, in some areas 0:47:58.440 --> 0:48:01.319 things are going to get willis and some adious things 0:48:01.360 --> 0:48:04.480 are going to get better. And it's not that really 0:48:05.280 --> 0:48:08.799 one broadbrush could be applied to the entire earth. Well, 0:48:08.800 --> 0:48:10.799 but I think I mean, I think like this, this 0:48:11.000 --> 0:48:13.360 is another thing that that they're really guilty of, especially 0:48:13.360 --> 0:48:16.120 like there's an entire section in here where they just 0:48:16.200 --> 0:48:19.480 keep writing about Africa and it's like well, and then 0:48:19.600 --> 0:48:21.040 you know, and they'll get pressed on it and they'll 0:48:21.040 --> 0:48:23.120 be like, no, no, we mean sub Saharan Africa, and 0:48:23.120 --> 0:48:26.520 it's like what are you talking like? They they won't 0:48:26.640 --> 0:48:29.640 name countries, they won't name movements, they won't name people. 0:48:29.960 --> 0:48:32.440 It's just they'll just write something about the whole of 0:48:32.480 --> 0:48:35.680 Sub Saharan Africa, and it's just like, well, I think 0:48:35.719 --> 0:48:38.040 that's evidence of the kind of of what Garrison was 0:48:38.080 --> 0:48:40.600 talking about this, right, And this is something you see 0:48:40.600 --> 0:48:44.120 all over the place with people writing about politics, with 0:48:44.480 --> 0:48:47.919 people trying to write about like particularly revolutionary politics UM 0:48:47.960 --> 0:48:50.000 in a global sense. And I think it's usually a 0:48:50.040 --> 0:48:52.600 mistake to do that, UM for the reasons we've kind 0:48:52.600 --> 0:48:56.200 of discussed. Any time I see a left wing even 0:48:56.200 --> 0:48:58.480 as somebody who I think is generally on point, who 0:48:58.480 --> 0:49:01.839 starts talking about, for example, like extending their theories about 0:49:01.840 --> 0:49:04.279 revolutionary politics to places I happen to know just a 0:49:04.280 --> 0:49:06.840 little bit about, it's always very clear like, oh, you 0:49:06.880 --> 0:49:09.319 don't know shit about Syria. Oh you don't know shit 0:49:09.480 --> 0:49:14.520 about Libya. Oh you don't know shit about Angle like um. 0:49:14.560 --> 0:49:16.680 And that's and that's like not even a moral failing. 0:49:16.719 --> 0:49:20.040 It's just that it's impost It's it's impossible really to 0:49:20.200 --> 0:49:23.040 have in depth knowledge of like what's actually going on 0:49:23.120 --> 0:49:25.000 in those places and what's going on in those revolutions. 0:49:25.000 --> 0:49:27.719 It's why people default so much to the whole. Well, 0:49:27.760 --> 0:49:30.280 whatever side the US is on must be the bad side, 0:49:30.280 --> 0:49:32.400 and whatever side the Russians on must be the good side. 0:49:32.400 --> 0:49:35.560 It's the easiest way to look at that ship. Um. 0:49:35.600 --> 0:49:38.560 I don't I think that's I think that's a worthwhile 0:49:38.600 --> 0:49:40.960 critique to make, and it's a critique to make any 0:49:41.000 --> 0:49:45.799 time that it happens. Um. I I agree with Garrison 0:49:46.080 --> 0:49:50.000 and with Andrew that I think the thing that is 0:49:50.120 --> 0:49:52.560 that desert gets right. Um. And the thing that I've 0:49:52.560 --> 0:49:56.280 seen in my own life is that like the opportunities 0:49:56.280 --> 0:49:59.600 we should be looking for are not suddenly that some 0:49:59.680 --> 0:50:02.400 sort of global revolution sweeps all of the things we 0:50:02.440 --> 0:50:07.400 don't like out of power and magically institutes something better 0:50:07.520 --> 0:50:11.120 comprehensively across the globe. It's it's it's room for little 0:50:11.120 --> 0:50:13.640 anarchies it's what we saw in northeast Syria, right where 0:50:13.960 --> 0:50:16.640 the government pulls out and people have an opportunity to 0:50:16.680 --> 0:50:19.759 do something not perfect, but better. And I think that 0:50:19.920 --> 0:50:21.839 is that's kind of one of the things we talked 0:50:21.840 --> 0:50:24.480 about a lot on this show. That's why mutual aid 0:50:24.520 --> 0:50:26.799 is valuable, It's why building these connections are valuable. It's 0:50:26.800 --> 0:50:31.920 because um, as things crumble, there will be opportunities two 0:50:32.480 --> 0:50:37.120 in local areas, piecemeal, institute and and push through for 0:50:37.600 --> 0:50:42.880 more just and and better ways of living. Um And 0:50:43.120 --> 0:50:45.440 I think that if you're looking at kind of the 0:50:45.480 --> 0:50:48.799 broad level, potentially optimistic point is that when you have 0:50:48.920 --> 0:50:50.920 enough of those and when they spread well enough, and 0:50:50.920 --> 0:50:53.600 if communication is good enough, maybe the things that work 0:50:53.600 --> 0:50:57.040 will get adopted on a wider scale. And there's always 0:50:57.040 --> 0:51:00.879 the opportunity that when enough, when idea is spread far enough, 0:51:00.920 --> 0:51:03.480 they have a tipping point and and they go viral, 0:51:03.640 --> 0:51:06.760 you know, so to speak. But I I I don't. 0:51:06.920 --> 0:51:10.040 I think that while there's a lot of specifics that 0:51:10.160 --> 0:51:12.560 Desert gets wrong, I do think they were ahead of 0:51:12.560 --> 0:51:14.839 the curve and recognizing that. And I think it's it's 0:51:14.840 --> 0:51:18.040 a more productive way to look at the idea of 0:51:18.080 --> 0:51:22.200 revolutionary change than we're going to finally have nineteen seventeen. 0:51:22.239 --> 0:51:28.000 But everywhere, you know, throughouts of the African chapter, the 0:51:28.040 --> 0:51:32.040 impression that I got while reading that chapter, and I 0:51:32.080 --> 0:51:37.440 think the book itself references Um Samba Um, I got 0:51:37.480 --> 0:51:42.320 the impression that the author had read UM Afghan anchism 0:51:42.400 --> 0:51:46.879 history of a movement by some member and they were 0:51:46.920 --> 0:51:49.640 just kind of like inspired by that. I would see, 0:51:49.880 --> 0:51:53.440 because as I do point out, they didn't like specify 0:51:53.960 --> 0:51:57.640 the specific cultures, which is an issue considering you know, 0:51:58.160 --> 0:52:01.279 the tendency that Western has, how of you know, being 0:52:01.320 --> 0:52:03.960 to Africa this large brush as if it's you know, 0:52:04.360 --> 0:52:08.040 all one way or the other. Um. But I think 0:52:08.120 --> 0:52:14.839 what we do see now, um is you know, from 0:52:15.000 --> 0:52:18.200 the Horn of Africa to South Africa to Nigeria too, 0:52:18.480 --> 0:52:22.919 I mean recently Sudan. I believe, Um, there are Africans 0:52:23.520 --> 0:52:27.120 smaller number organizing under demand of anarchism, and there are 0:52:27.239 --> 0:52:33.640 anarchic elements that continue to persist on the continent. Yeah, 0:52:33.680 --> 0:52:36.600 I mean I think that's like you know, I mean, 0:52:36.640 --> 0:52:38.279 one of the things that they sort of got they 0:52:38.320 --> 0:52:40.680 got right, was about how like this the sort of 0:52:40.719 --> 0:52:42.920 the the sort of renewal, the spread of urban anarchism 0:52:42.960 --> 0:52:46.000 they're talking about like Chile in particular, they got right, 0:52:46.120 --> 0:52:52.239 um Indonesia bnglaestra somewhat. But but but I think I 0:52:52.239 --> 0:52:56.600 think there's there's another like my, my, my, my, my 0:52:56.640 --> 0:52:59.759 biggest issue with them in terms of the way they 0:52:59.760 --> 0:53:02.680 think about ecological stuff. This comes this is something they 0:53:02.680 --> 0:53:06.600 talk about with like they have this thing where they 0:53:06.600 --> 0:53:10.399 think that forger societies are like, Okay, they're they're they're 0:53:10.440 --> 0:53:12.799 they're they're more careful than most people to frame it 0:53:12.880 --> 0:53:16.440 as like the forging societies can be a galitarian, but 0:53:17.400 --> 0:53:20.919 I think they they wind up talking about these sort 0:53:20.960 --> 0:53:24.200 of like the way that sort of forging nomadic society 0:53:24.280 --> 0:53:26.239 sort of inherently defy the boundaries of the state, and 0:53:26.320 --> 0:53:31.040 like that's true, but you can also have like nomadic 0:53:31.040 --> 0:53:33.759 foraging societies that have that are you know, hereditary slave societies. 0:53:34.640 --> 0:53:39.200 And this is this is a problem because there's a 0:53:39.280 --> 0:53:42.360 there's a lot in here about that that that's about 0:53:42.400 --> 0:53:44.440 sort of like they're, you know, they're they're taking this 0:53:44.520 --> 0:53:49.759 a sort of like soft anti se of right. It 0:53:49.800 --> 0:53:53.360 has a few liads where it does specifically sayzation is 0:53:53.520 --> 0:53:55.839 the cause of like I think it's like the civilization 0:53:55.920 --> 0:54:05.239 is genocide, Um, which yeah, and that can't silly civilizations 0:54:05.280 --> 0:54:09.040 commit genocide. Sure, if they're saying that they do cause genocide. 0:54:09.080 --> 0:54:10.600 If you're if you're trying to make the case that 0:54:10.719 --> 0:54:14.480 it seems to be that civilizations, Uh, well, I don't 0:54:14.480 --> 0:54:17.719 know every civilization does not commit genocide, but no, but 0:54:17.800 --> 0:54:22.880 civilization gives a constant Yeah, civilization gives you the framework 0:54:23.000 --> 0:54:27.640 that makes genocide possible, well, like potentially intentional genocide possible. 0:54:27.920 --> 0:54:29.800 I don't know that I would agree with that, because 0:54:29.840 --> 0:54:32.880 I think you see examples of genocide from hunter gatherer 0:54:33.000 --> 0:54:37.200 societies and from from so positive societies, and that the 0:54:37.239 --> 0:54:40.960 obviously documentation on that isn't as extensive because we weren't 0:54:40.960 --> 0:54:42.600 documenting things for a lot of it. But you do 0:54:42.680 --> 0:54:45.920 have examples from from what we know of, like um, 0:54:46.080 --> 0:54:49.480 the Americas of their word, genocides committed by societies we 0:54:49.480 --> 0:54:52.200 would call stateless. So I think I might argue that like, 0:54:52.320 --> 0:54:55.400 genocide is a thing that human beings do, and civilization, 0:54:55.880 --> 0:54:58.160 because it allows us to do everything on a larger scale, 0:54:58.160 --> 0:55:01.160 allows us to do way better. Gennos sides, that's definitely 0:55:01.200 --> 0:55:04.200 an art I think. I think my problem with it 0:55:04.239 --> 0:55:06.560 is is that they're going back into this sort of 0:55:06.600 --> 0:55:09.600 like that they're going back into the you know, there's 0:55:09.600 --> 0:55:13.560 this inherent binary between forgers and sal societies and that 0:55:14.320 --> 0:55:16.799 you know, and and specifically they think that that that 0:55:16.840 --> 0:55:19.000 these sorts that the forger's ideas are you know, inevitably 0:55:19.040 --> 0:55:21.000 gonna become a gagalitarian. It's like that's not true, and 0:55:21.000 --> 0:55:23.680 it's not true in ways that you can see right 0:55:23.719 --> 0:55:27.279 now in like like they're like they're like there are 0:55:27.360 --> 0:55:29.560 lots of places right now where you can look at 0:55:29.640 --> 0:55:31.960 you know, forging ancieties that are incredibly right. Like there's 0:55:32.000 --> 0:55:35.239 there's like, for example, you you get sort of you 0:55:35.280 --> 0:55:38.080 get the Filani joining like right wing Islamas groups, right 0:55:38.719 --> 0:55:43.120 and that like that kind of thing. I think it 0:55:43.600 --> 0:55:50.840 has a problem with It's the same thing as looking 0:55:50.880 --> 0:55:55.439 at indigenous societies and and seeing them all on one 0:55:55.560 --> 0:55:58.840 side of the fight with with colonizing nations as supposed. 0:55:58.840 --> 0:56:00.600 I'm reading a book about the history the mapoo Chay 0:56:00.719 --> 0:56:05.040 right now, which are historically like the indigenous group in 0:56:05.320 --> 0:56:07.919 Chile that resisted the law, in the indigenous group really 0:56:07.960 --> 0:56:10.040 and in you could argue in all of Latin America 0:56:10.080 --> 0:56:12.759 that resisted the longest and most effectively. But even then, 0:56:12.800 --> 0:56:14.800 when you look at like the campaigns of the Chilean 0:56:14.840 --> 0:56:18.160 government in the eighteen sixties and eighteen eighties, large like 0:56:18.239 --> 0:56:20.640 significant chunks of the mapoo Chay sided with the government 0:56:20.680 --> 0:56:23.960 against other Mapouchay and like that's the like, it's it's 0:56:24.000 --> 0:56:25.960 always a mistake. I think this is a good one 0:56:26.000 --> 0:56:27.480 of the things that you get out of the dawn 0:56:27.600 --> 0:56:29.600 of everything. It's always a mistake to like look at 0:56:29.640 --> 0:56:32.600 any of these groups hunter gatherers, stateless societies is like 0:56:33.000 --> 0:56:36.239 one thing or another. They're people and some of them 0:56:36.280 --> 0:56:41.799 sucked just like yeah, they're yeah anyway, Yeah, there's there's 0:56:41.880 --> 0:56:44.920 one thing that I wanted to sort of pushback against. Uh. 0:56:45.080 --> 0:56:49.879 ROBBERTI had said that genocide is a thing that humans do. Um. 0:56:49.920 --> 0:56:54.520 I don't think I agree with that assessment, um in 0:56:54.520 --> 0:56:56.840 this sense, or at least i'd rather I would like 0:56:56.880 --> 0:56:59.920 to clarify. Um, Well, give you an opportunity to clarify 0:57:00.120 --> 0:57:03.080 what you mean by that. I you know, I don't 0:57:03.120 --> 0:57:05.640 know that it's just humans, but I think that genocide 0:57:05.760 --> 0:57:08.880 is a thing that as long as we have evidence 0:57:09.080 --> 0:57:11.759 in recorded history, it seems like we have done not 0:57:11.840 --> 0:57:16.040 just against are not just against other humans, but against 0:57:16.080 --> 0:57:19.120 other kind of hominid species. We have we have examples 0:57:19.160 --> 0:57:23.200 of things that it seems fair to call genocide, going 0:57:23.240 --> 0:57:26.760 back further than we have any kinds of written records. Um, 0:57:26.800 --> 0:57:29.320 you know, villages in the Balkans that were you know, 0:57:29.880 --> 0:57:32.960 burnt in people who like groups of people, tribes and whatnot, 0:57:33.000 --> 0:57:36.080 who seem to have been killed in mass And you know, 0:57:36.160 --> 0:57:38.360 there's there's other theories for some of that. Some of 0:57:38.360 --> 0:57:40.000 them may have been like people trying to stop a 0:57:40.040 --> 0:57:43.560 place we don't plague or whatever. Like, there's not any 0:57:43.640 --> 0:57:46.480 kind of comprehensive solidity. But what we do know is 0:57:46.520 --> 0:57:49.600 that as long as we have documentations of humans doing things, 0:57:49.680 --> 0:57:52.240 we have documentations of things that we could call genocide. 0:57:54.160 --> 0:57:58.280 I see, I see, look look into that a bit more. 0:57:58.960 --> 0:58:01.720 I appreciate the glarification. Yeah, can I can I do 0:58:01.760 --> 0:58:06.280 a Balkans pivot, because there's a there's a there's a 0:58:06.360 --> 0:58:10.280 thing like like a genuinely disturbed me reading it in 0:58:10.360 --> 0:58:15.560 here about the Serbs d during the Bosnian genocide. Were 0:58:15.560 --> 0:58:18.880 so that they they're they're quoting disturbing about that. Oh yeah, 0:58:18.920 --> 0:58:22.040 but this is this is a I I uh okay, 0:58:22.080 --> 0:58:24.280 So they're they're they're doing they're they're reading a quote 0:58:24.280 --> 0:58:26.360 from the book Gypsies, Wars and Other Instances of the 0:58:26.400 --> 0:58:30.200 Wild where he's talking this is about the Boston genocide. 0:58:30.560 --> 0:58:32.480 How is this possible in Europe at the end of 0:58:32.520 --> 0:58:35.040 the twentieth century was the question that played obsessively through 0:58:35.080 --> 0:58:38.200 my mind. What the war in former Yugoslavia forced us 0:58:38.240 --> 0:58:40.520 to suggest the fact that people proved willing to make 0:58:40.560 --> 0:58:44.200 a conscious and active choice to embrace regression, barbarity and 0:58:44.320 --> 0:58:47.840 return to the wildness. Take the serve fighters who dreamed 0:58:48.080 --> 0:58:51.160 of a return to the serby of the epic poems 0:58:51.160 --> 0:58:54.760 were quote there was no electricity, no computers, when the 0:58:54.800 --> 0:58:57.200 serves were happy and had no cities, the breeding ground 0:58:57.240 --> 0:58:58.760 of all evil. And then this is this is the 0:58:58.760 --> 0:59:02.440 next uh thing? That's that's the text coming back and 0:59:02.440 --> 0:59:06.400 commenting on it that some modern day militias reflect romantic 0:59:06.440 --> 0:59:10.720 and desires while shelling towns, massacring villages, and being killed 0:59:10.760 --> 0:59:15.160 in turn should neither surprise us nor necessarily fully invalidate romance. 0:59:16.040 --> 0:59:19.280 It does, however, suggest, along with the honest expression of 0:59:19.360 --> 0:59:22.040 joy and destruction mouth by some soldiers in every war, 0:59:22.080 --> 0:59:24.760 as well as many anarchists, that there is a coupling 0:59:24.760 --> 0:59:26.960 of some store between a generalized urge to destroy and 0:59:26.960 --> 0:59:30.280 a disgust at a complex human society. And there's there's 0:59:30.280 --> 0:59:33.240 there's another part um only later on they're talking about 0:59:35.360 --> 0:59:38.560 ethnic diversity, and autonomy will often emerge both from mutual 0:59:38.560 --> 0:59:42.480 aid and community and animosity between communities. I'd like to think, 0:59:42.520 --> 0:59:44.840 and our histories back this up, that self adantified anarchists 0:59:44.840 --> 0:59:48.120 will never inflict such pain as Serb nationalist militias, an 0:59:48.160 --> 0:59:50.439 example I shows purposely for the Repugnicans. But we should 0:59:50.440 --> 0:59:53.480 admit that our wish to function up is partly driven 0:59:53.480 --> 0:59:56.120 by the same urge to civilizational dismemberment that can be 0:59:56.120 --> 0:59:58.880 found in many inter ethnic conflicts and in the minds 0:59:58.880 --> 1:00:02.400 of fighters more general. And I think that's fucked. I 1:00:02.720 --> 1:00:09.840 think that's true. That's just I think there's commenting a 1:00:09.880 --> 1:00:12.120 specific type of anarchist literature, which is like the make 1:00:12.160 --> 1:00:15.240 total destroy thing. And yeah, I definitely I have observed 1:00:15.280 --> 1:00:19.400 that in people the same the same urge that you're 1:00:19.400 --> 1:00:25.440 you're so broken down by everything that the only urge 1:00:25.680 --> 1:00:27.920 that is the only creative urge you have is to 1:00:28.080 --> 1:00:32.000 destroy the things around you. I've seen that. I don't 1:00:32.000 --> 1:00:35.440 think they're necessarily celebrating that, but they're pointing out that 1:00:35.440 --> 1:00:37.880 that urge can be there. When I when I think 1:00:37.920 --> 1:00:40.560 they get really wrong here is that I don't think 1:00:40.680 --> 1:00:43.120 that's the urge that that is is like that, that's 1:00:43.200 --> 1:00:45.200 when when when you're dealing with inter ethnic conflict, when 1:00:45.200 --> 1:00:46.720 you're dealing with genocie, I don't think that's the urge 1:00:46.720 --> 1:00:50.760 that's going on. It's spectically with the Serb because the Serbs, 1:00:50.840 --> 1:00:53.200 like you know, okay, like when when when an anarchist 1:00:53.240 --> 1:00:55.640 is doing make total destroy right there, you know there 1:00:56.440 --> 1:00:58.200 like there, there's there's a very specific set of things 1:00:58.240 --> 1:01:00.400 you're attacking or they're you know, they're attacking building, attacking 1:01:00.400 --> 1:01:02.800 the physical infrastructure of the world. When the Serbs are 1:01:02.800 --> 1:01:05.160 doing the Bosnian genocide, like that, they have a very 1:01:05.160 --> 1:01:07.840 specific thing they're doing, which is killing Bosnian Muslims. And 1:01:07.880 --> 1:01:14.440 I think that's extremely different urge than the sort of 1:01:14.440 --> 1:01:16.360 like I don't I don't think that's about sort of 1:01:16.360 --> 1:01:20.800 what it's civilizational dismemberment or whatever. That's about Islamophobia and genocide. 1:01:20.840 --> 1:01:24.680 And I think that's a different I think the genocidal 1:01:24.720 --> 1:01:27.760 impulse is a I think, a very different one than 1:01:28.760 --> 1:01:31.280 the sort of the like the impulse to break the 1:01:31.280 --> 1:01:34.120 society that has harmed you. Yeah, I think it's important 1:01:34.160 --> 1:01:36.960 to draw a distinction between you can kill a shipload 1:01:37.000 --> 1:01:40.720 of people without it being a genocide. UM. And I 1:01:40.760 --> 1:01:42.840 think and it's also one of those things I think 1:01:43.160 --> 1:01:47.280 sometimes why people I think why there's hesitation to see 1:01:47.320 --> 1:01:49.560 certain acts and early history of genocide is that they're 1:01:49.600 --> 1:01:52.040 not as complete as modern genocide. But but what a 1:01:52.080 --> 1:01:54.360 genocide really is, and I think it's important to lay 1:01:54.360 --> 1:01:57.240 this out. It's not necessarily killing every member of an 1:01:57.280 --> 1:02:00.760 ethnic group or a religious group or whatever kind of community. UM. 1:02:00.840 --> 1:02:05.200 It is stopping their ability to propagate and continue themselves. 1:02:05.240 --> 1:02:08.440 That's why things like destroying churches and destroying the cultural 1:02:08.480 --> 1:02:11.520 distroyal markers are part of genocide. And it's also why 1:02:11.520 --> 1:02:14.080 a lot of genocides they left the women and children alive. 1:02:14.120 --> 1:02:15.720 They would kill all the men, and they would take 1:02:15.720 --> 1:02:17.200 the women in and they would breed with them. They 1:02:17.240 --> 1:02:19.280 might kill the kids sometimes, but it was this The 1:02:19.400 --> 1:02:22.000 goal was not necessarily were we need to kill all 1:02:22.040 --> 1:02:24.080 of you, It's we want to kill this this culture, 1:02:24.160 --> 1:02:29.920 this population. UM. I think the I think the Yeah, 1:02:30.000 --> 1:02:32.280 I think the parallel he's trying to make here or 1:02:32.440 --> 1:02:37.680 there or she U is that that like that type 1:02:37.720 --> 1:02:43.240 of like genocidal cultural destruction is targeted against specific groups. 1:02:43.680 --> 1:02:46.320 The difference here is with this type of like you know, 1:02:46.360 --> 1:02:49.040 he's he's writing this for other anarchists. He's pointing out, 1:02:49.120 --> 1:02:53.600 like our destructive urge, our cultural urge isn't even for 1:02:53.640 --> 1:02:56.960 a specific group, it's just for everything, and that can 1:02:57.000 --> 1:02:59.880 be unhealthy sometimes sometimes you know, there's ways to do 1:03:00.000 --> 1:03:02.880 a total destroy that's totally fine, but that can go 1:03:02.960 --> 1:03:06.800 to unhealthy places. Now, he's not equating like ethnic cleansing 1:03:06.800 --> 1:03:09.640 with that. He's like they are like they are different. 1:03:10.120 --> 1:03:14.760 But when when your total destroy urges against all of culture, 1:03:15.400 --> 1:03:18.160 then yeah, that that can like that's something you should 1:03:18.200 --> 1:03:21.800 probably ponder. Yeah, I mean that's definitely I would agree 1:03:21.840 --> 1:03:24.640 that that's the thing that's potentially problematic, right, like with 1:03:24.720 --> 1:03:27.800 a number of different desires, Uh, there's a way in 1:03:27.800 --> 1:03:31.360 which that can lead to people doing really fucked up things. Yeah, 1:03:31.360 --> 1:03:34.160 It's like it's like it's pointing out that that type 1:03:34.160 --> 1:03:38.240 of accelerationism not specific to ideology, but just like accelerationism 1:03:38.280 --> 1:03:41.200 in general. I mean I think when I when I 1:03:41.240 --> 1:03:43.640 talk about things like the fact that because not every 1:03:43.680 --> 1:03:47.720 culture commits genocides and every civil civilization does UM, and 1:03:47.880 --> 1:03:50.160 throughout history there have been more that found the idea 1:03:50.240 --> 1:03:53.600 repugnant than found the idea acceptable UM. But it is 1:03:53.800 --> 1:03:57.160 really a consistent thing in history, And I think the 1:03:57.240 --> 1:04:00.680 lesson with that isn't necessarily that everything could end in genocide. 1:04:00.720 --> 1:04:02.680 So I don't think the lesson is necessarily like, oh, 1:04:02.720 --> 1:04:05.720 you should look at make total destroys if you know 1:04:05.960 --> 1:04:08.640 the this kind of trend in anarchist thought could lead 1:04:08.640 --> 1:04:12.680 to genocide. It's that people in groups are nearly always 1:04:12.760 --> 1:04:15.400 capable of killing a shipload of other people for a 1:04:15.480 --> 1:04:19.280 variety of reasons if applied in the proper ways, And 1:04:19.400 --> 1:04:22.400 so those of us who seek mass movement should always 1:04:22.400 --> 1:04:25.840 be conscious of that, because human beings in large groups 1:04:25.880 --> 1:04:28.320 can do wonderful things, but there's a long history of 1:04:28.320 --> 1:04:30.960 them doing really fucked up shit, sometimes in ways that 1:04:31.000 --> 1:04:33.360 surprised the people that got the large group of human 1:04:33.400 --> 1:04:36.000 beings together in the first place. The other thing I 1:04:36.040 --> 1:04:38.760 wanted to bring up is kind of more circling back 1:04:38.760 --> 1:04:42.040 to the Dumer kind of idea UM, because yeah, a 1:04:42.320 --> 1:04:45.080 big part of the book is trying purposely is to 1:04:45.160 --> 1:04:49.440 dissolution people with this idea of global revolution and disolution 1:04:49.480 --> 1:04:51.000 people with the idea that we can save the earth 1:04:51.000 --> 1:04:54.760 because we can't UM. So that's a big thing. And 1:04:55.160 --> 1:04:57.600 for I think, I think for some people, if you 1:04:57.720 --> 1:05:01.160 stop right there and you that's how you and that thought, yes, 1:05:01.240 --> 1:05:03.720 that does lead to numeriism obviously, like that that is, 1:05:04.000 --> 1:05:06.640 that is, but the books, the book doesn't stop there. 1:05:07.400 --> 1:05:10.320 The book continues on from there. Now they continue on 1:05:10.440 --> 1:05:14.080 from a nihilistic standpoint. I'm not a nihilist. I prefer certinism. 1:05:14.160 --> 1:05:17.600 I prefer discordinism. But those two things are pretty common. 1:05:17.720 --> 1:05:21.840 Like there, they are more similar than not. Um is 1:05:21.880 --> 1:05:25.000 that you can be disillusioned with global revolution and the 1:05:25.040 --> 1:05:28.000 idea to save the earth, but that should not change 1:05:28.520 --> 1:05:33.080 what we do or how we feel or operate as anarchists. 1:05:33.360 --> 1:05:37.440 It's not that we should be disillusioned and then do 1:05:37.520 --> 1:05:40.600 nothing and step aside. That we should be disillusioned and 1:05:40.640 --> 1:05:45.920 then find that disillusionment itself a form of liberation, like 1:05:46.040 --> 1:05:49.880 the freeing nature of being free from this idea of revolution. 1:05:50.200 --> 1:05:52.000 Is that like no, we are living our lives now, 1:05:52.320 --> 1:05:55.320 don't live for a revolution, live your life now, and 1:05:55.360 --> 1:05:59.200 do things now because that's what you actually have. So 1:05:59.440 --> 1:06:03.160 it's like that type of nihilistic, absurdist, discordian things. This is, 1:06:03.240 --> 1:06:04.480 this is this is This is where I come back 1:06:04.480 --> 1:06:06.160 to having problems with it again because this this is 1:06:06.200 --> 1:06:10.640 literally just there is no alternative except it's it's yeah 1:06:10.720 --> 1:06:14.720 and that do energy. I mean, but that's how I 1:06:14.760 --> 1:06:17.880 live like that. I think I think this is a 1:06:17.920 --> 1:06:19.880 bad I think that's a bad plan. And I think 1:06:19.920 --> 1:06:21.880 if if you look, if you look at what happens 1:06:22.400 --> 1:06:24.360 with because you know, this, this was the thing that 1:06:24.400 --> 1:06:27.200 was really big in the American anarchist movement, like in 1:06:27.360 --> 1:06:30.360 you know, from about just and seventeen like roughly now, 1:06:30.400 --> 1:06:35.120 and it's like people were rising too. Yeah that didn't 1:06:35.120 --> 1:06:37.640 succeed like that, like not really like but I think 1:06:37.680 --> 1:06:40.120 like like this is like I think, I think this 1:06:40.200 --> 1:06:43.040 is like like one of the reasons it didn't, we 1:06:43.200 --> 1:06:45.560 were like, Okay, this is like the thing that's important. 1:06:45.560 --> 1:06:46.920 One of the things is the important of revolutions, even 1:06:46.920 --> 1:06:49.880 when they don't succeed, is that for a very brief 1:06:49.920 --> 1:06:52.880 window you actually can like it becomes it becomes possible 1:06:52.920 --> 1:06:56.680 to imagine another world, and what what what this entire 1:06:56.720 --> 1:06:59.040 thing is saying is don't do that. That's not that's 1:06:59.080 --> 1:07:02.640 not that's that is not what it is. Absolutely this 1:07:02.680 --> 1:07:07.080 is no no, okay, can face the sentence, Yeah, like yeah, okay, 1:07:07.160 --> 1:07:09.360 so what what what what? What I'm saying here is 1:07:09.480 --> 1:07:13.800 that what what they've abandoned, right, the thing that they're 1:07:13.800 --> 1:07:16.000 giving up when when they give up revolution, when they're like, 1:07:16.040 --> 1:07:20.720 this is a progressive myth, this is like theology. What 1:07:20.920 --> 1:07:25.160 what they've abandoned completely is our human capacity to actually 1:07:25.240 --> 1:07:29.200 shape a different world. What they're arguing is that, like 1:07:29.360 --> 1:07:32.800 the the you know, this essentially, that the combination of 1:07:33.840 --> 1:07:37.880 ecological and social forces are strong enough that humans humans 1:07:37.960 --> 1:07:41.480 no longer have the capacity to reshape the world into 1:07:41.600 --> 1:07:44.640 a way that is different than this, and that this 1:07:44.840 --> 1:07:47.000 is now the eternal presence, and you know and and yeah, 1:07:47.320 --> 1:07:49.160 inside of the eternal present, they're saying, you should be 1:07:49.160 --> 1:07:50.720 fighting for the same things you should be fighting for, 1:07:51.640 --> 1:07:53.400 like you know, you should you should be in your 1:07:53.440 --> 1:07:57.000 own sort of local domain. You should be like, I mean, 1:07:57.120 --> 1:08:00.400 there're so of the recommendations are wild, Like I think 1:08:00.440 --> 1:08:05.680 I think their conservation stuff is sketchy, given I mean, 1:08:05.920 --> 1:08:09.120 it doesn't. But it doesn't apply to an eternal present though, 1:08:09.160 --> 1:08:12.080 Like they lay out, like the world is changing a 1:08:12.240 --> 1:08:14.160 lot and will for the next fifty years, Like there 1:08:14.200 --> 1:08:16.800 will be massive changes and how things are set up 1:08:16.800 --> 1:08:19.320 in the next like in the next century, and we 1:08:19.439 --> 1:08:21.559 need to take advantage of that. We need to turn 1:08:21.640 --> 1:08:26.320 those liabilities into assets and start making those little anarchies 1:08:26.400 --> 1:08:28.160 like that. That that is what it's trying to do. 1:08:29.320 --> 1:08:32.439 And I would add as well that as it points 1:08:32.479 --> 1:08:36.400 out the situations in Bassic, Stooke and Bangladesh, a difference 1:08:36.400 --> 1:08:38.880 in the present and will be in the future. You know. 1:08:39.080 --> 1:08:41.240 What I think is is trying to be sort of 1:08:42.720 --> 1:08:46.200 drilled in here is that at least in the text 1:08:46.280 --> 1:08:50.599 and how I read it, UM, is that yes, things 1:08:50.680 --> 1:08:52.760 will be different in different parts of the wood, and 1:08:54.120 --> 1:08:56.559 probably maybe they won't be this, you know or as 1:08:56.640 --> 1:08:58.720 the what this is, they won't be you know, this 1:08:59.479 --> 1:09:05.120 one global revolution. But at the end of the day, Um, 1:09:05.439 --> 1:09:09.120 I think what it's trying to emphasize is that we 1:09:09.200 --> 1:09:11.040 don't have the structures. And I think what part of 1:09:11.120 --> 1:09:12.320 what is trying to emphasize is that we don't have 1:09:12.320 --> 1:09:14.880 its structures in place right now to launch an instruction 1:09:14.960 --> 1:09:17.680 we can meaningfully defend. And so that is the sort 1:09:17.680 --> 1:09:21.320 of thing we should be focusing on. But but they, 1:09:21.400 --> 1:09:23.360 but they, but this this this, this is going back 1:09:23.360 --> 1:09:24.960 to my problem with it, going going back to the 1:09:25.040 --> 1:09:27.639 thing where they go on the rant about how anarchists 1:09:27.640 --> 1:09:30.040 are like a permanent cultural majority and will never become 1:09:30.360 --> 1:09:33.880 a majority. Is that even even in situations where people 1:09:33.960 --> 1:09:36.160 had that capacity and did it they go back, they 1:09:36.240 --> 1:09:38.160 project back onto it, go no, no, no, no, they 1:09:38.200 --> 1:09:41.160 couldn't have done that. Like it's it's not about it's 1:09:41.240 --> 1:09:43.640 it's it's they they have a belief and this is 1:09:43.680 --> 1:09:46.040 something that they do explicitly say that that anarchist will 1:09:46.120 --> 1:09:49.559 always be a permanent minority. Right there, There will always 1:09:49.600 --> 1:09:52.200 be an active but permanent minority. And that is the 1:09:53.560 --> 1:09:57.839 like like that specifically, I think is just an actual 1:09:57.920 --> 1:10:01.760 rejection of the belief that we collectively can make a 1:10:01.800 --> 1:10:04.760 better future. Because if if if you think that our 1:10:04.840 --> 1:10:08.280 ideas that you know, if being free, right, if if 1:10:08.400 --> 1:10:12.280 a society, if you think that that is permanently always 1:10:12.360 --> 1:10:15.360 going to be a minority, you are you know, you 1:10:15.479 --> 1:10:21.120 are condemning you're condemning the future to the people who 1:10:21.160 --> 1:10:26.479 don't believe that, and and I I understand why, especially 1:10:26.760 --> 1:10:28.479 if you know, if, if, if, if the only thing 1:10:28.560 --> 1:10:31.760 you've ever known is fifty years of when the new 1:10:31.840 --> 1:10:34.439 Liberals actually did the thing right. They took over the 1:10:34.560 --> 1:10:38.120 entire world, restructure of the entire world economy, seized every government. 1:10:38.880 --> 1:10:41.120 Like if if that's what you lived through, I understand 1:10:41.160 --> 1:10:43.760 why you would think that. But I think the fact 1:10:43.840 --> 1:10:46.599 that it was possible to do it from the other 1:10:46.680 --> 1:10:48.920 direction is in some ways a sense that like, yeah, 1:10:48.960 --> 1:10:51.280 we could do it too. I don't know, Sorry, I 1:10:51.520 --> 1:10:54.040 will stop harping on this one specific point. It just 1:10:54.280 --> 1:10:57.240 extremely annoys me. I think it's not giving up the 1:10:57.320 --> 1:11:00.920 idea that the world can be better. It's that we 1:11:01.040 --> 1:11:04.080 don't need to have the majority of people be anarchists 1:11:04.160 --> 1:11:06.320 to make the world better. We can still spread our 1:11:06.360 --> 1:11:09.120 own anarchies and people don't need to self subscribe as anarchists. 1:11:09.520 --> 1:11:12.080 But as long as we start building those systems in 1:11:12.160 --> 1:11:15.000 the places around us, people start using them, and people 1:11:15.120 --> 1:11:17.559 might start like living them out, even if they don't 1:11:17.600 --> 1:11:20.280 call themselves anarchists. Right, Like, the majority of people will 1:11:20.320 --> 1:11:24.439 probably prefer some some type of state or government. Right. 1:11:24.479 --> 1:11:26.360 You can even look at Rosa and be like, yeah, 1:11:26.360 --> 1:11:28.960 it's still is state issue in some ways, but some 1:11:29.080 --> 1:11:32.040 ways not right, Like it's it's it's going We're not 1:11:32.120 --> 1:11:34.920 going to get an anarchist world. That's not going to happen, 1:11:35.160 --> 1:11:37.559 but we can make it better through the lens of anarchy. 1:11:37.760 --> 1:11:39.840 And I think that's what it's kind of trying to say. Yeah, 1:11:39.880 --> 1:11:43.439 I I think it's it's worth acknowledging that, like, yeah, 1:11:43.760 --> 1:11:45.920 the majority of people are never going to be what 1:11:46.080 --> 1:11:50.320 anarchists are right now, which is people who comprehensively reject 1:11:50.479 --> 1:11:52.519 the systems they live in. Most people are always going 1:11:52.600 --> 1:11:55.799 to think more like well, I want to be comfortable. 1:11:55.840 --> 1:11:57.960 I want to I support changes kind of that that, 1:11:58.360 --> 1:12:00.280 you know, fix this thing that I've noticed a problem 1:12:00.400 --> 1:12:02.560 or that thing. Most people are never going to comprehensively 1:12:02.640 --> 1:12:05.800 reject the system. But I do have hope that in 1:12:05.960 --> 1:12:09.800 time and given you know, space to build things and 1:12:09.920 --> 1:12:13.080 show people other ways and improve life for people, you 1:12:13.160 --> 1:12:16.040 can get to a point where most people believe a 1:12:16.120 --> 1:12:18.439 lot of the things that I think are important. Yeah, 1:12:18.479 --> 1:12:22.519 and I think that's what's time. I think that's sorry. 1:12:23.120 --> 1:12:26.600 I think that's what the as specificitis UM tend to 1:12:26.640 --> 1:12:30.000 advocate for in terms of through the process of social 1:12:30.040 --> 1:12:35.519 institution in these larger movements, generalizing the ideas of anarchist 1:12:35.560 --> 1:12:38.760 ideas as a whole, making them more common throughout the population. 1:12:39.200 --> 1:12:41.320 It's only trying to get each and every boost in 1:12:41.360 --> 1:12:45.200 the world to self identify as an anarchist, communists or whatever. 1:12:45.720 --> 1:12:49.479 It's more so that you're trying to spread these ideas 1:12:49.560 --> 1:12:54.280 to the point where they are. I suppose the common 1:12:54.400 --> 1:12:59.559 sentiment the popular will yeah, like I it's it's um, 1:13:00.000 --> 1:13:02.360 it's like the point of culture jamming and and and 1:13:02.479 --> 1:13:05.400 ship like that, Like it's the the idea that like 1:13:05.479 --> 1:13:09.200 it doesn't so much matter, like like like what matters 1:13:09.280 --> 1:13:12.280 is inserting the things you think are important into the 1:13:12.360 --> 1:13:15.360 culture and getting people to identify with them and understand them. 1:13:16.240 --> 1:13:19.759 The terms that they specifically use aren't aren't as important, 1:13:19.960 --> 1:13:23.600 like that that's not really what matters. Well, okay, I 1:13:23.920 --> 1:13:26.680 don't think they're arguing that though, because I mean, like 1:13:26.760 --> 1:13:28.880 do they have lines like this. We cannot, however, remake 1:13:28.960 --> 1:13:30.599 the entire world. There are not enough of us, there 1:13:30.680 --> 1:13:32.439 never will be. But then you know, they like they 1:13:32.520 --> 1:13:34.880 they they specifically talk about the oh well, they don't 1:13:34.880 --> 1:13:37.519 have to all be anarchists, and you know. I mean, 1:13:37.720 --> 1:13:40.240 here's their line. There is unfortunately little little evidence from 1:13:40.280 --> 1:13:42.439 history that the working class, never mind anyone else, is 1:13:42.439 --> 1:13:47.120 intrinsically predisposed to libertarian ecological revolution thousands of years of 1:13:47.160 --> 1:13:50.519 authoritarian socialization favor of the jack boot. Neither we nor 1:13:50.640 --> 1:13:54.320 anyone else could create a libertarian or global or ecological 1:13:54.360 --> 1:13:57.519 global future by expanding social movements further. There is no 1:13:57.600 --> 1:13:59.479 reason to think that, in the absence of such a 1:13:59.520 --> 1:14:02.200 vast ex bance and global transformation concurrent to our desires 1:14:02.240 --> 1:14:05.439 will ever happen. I think I think, I think the 1:14:05.520 --> 1:14:07.800 keyword there is global, Like, yeah, that's they're trying to 1:14:07.880 --> 1:14:10.000 break with that, and it's important, Like they're writing this 1:14:10.320 --> 1:14:14.000 specifically for anarchists who are kind of already nihilistic, kind 1:14:14.000 --> 1:14:16.360 of already anti sif right, They are writing this for 1:14:16.479 --> 1:14:19.920 other anarchists, that this isn't a book to radicalize a 1:14:20.040 --> 1:14:24.160 normy or a communist by anarchists for other anarchists to 1:14:24.200 --> 1:14:26.920 be like, Hey, you already kind of think the world's 1:14:27.320 --> 1:14:29.920 kind of going to ship. Here's a way that we 1:14:30.040 --> 1:14:35.920 can still do things despite the world being shitty. Because 1:14:36.120 --> 1:14:39.800 once you're once you're disillusioned, it's hard to be illusioned again. 1:14:40.240 --> 1:14:42.120 Like it's it's hard once you give up on the 1:14:42.200 --> 1:14:45.519 idea of global revolution, once you give up the idea 1:14:45.520 --> 1:14:48.080 of global collapse, it's hard to re enter those even 1:14:48.160 --> 1:14:50.160 if you see things happening the world, like there can 1:14:50.200 --> 1:14:53.720 still be uprisings and revolts, absolutely, but there is a 1:14:53.840 --> 1:14:57.000 distinction of between uprising and the revolts, and like a 1:14:57.120 --> 1:15:01.160 global revolution, right and specifically, like the Marxist letters to sounds, 1:15:02.320 --> 1:15:05.880 And I'd also like to um continue the paragraph you're 1:15:05.880 --> 1:15:08.880 reading from there. We had said that as anarchists, sweet, 1:15:09.200 --> 1:15:11.520 he had said, or they had said that, as anarchists, 1:15:11.560 --> 1:15:13.960 we are not the seed of the future society in 1:15:14.000 --> 1:15:16.240 the shell of the old, but merely one of many 1:15:16.320 --> 1:15:20.439 elements from which the future is forming. That's okay, when 1:15:20.520 --> 1:15:23.439 faced with such scale and complexity, there is value in 1:15:23.560 --> 1:15:26.240 non cervile humility, even for in such Yeah, but this 1:15:26.320 --> 1:15:27.800 is this is just this is just giving up. This 1:15:27.920 --> 1:15:30.360 is this is the old. It's too complicated, it's too 1:15:30.520 --> 1:15:33.360 like and like I think, I don't know, like it's 1:15:33.439 --> 1:15:36.920 it's it's it's giving up on it's giving up on 1:15:37.080 --> 1:15:40.280 trying to do any kind of on on like humans 1:15:40.360 --> 1:15:42.599 as a whole trying to do any kind of large 1:15:42.640 --> 1:15:47.760 scale like you know, like it's trying to do transformation 1:15:47.880 --> 1:15:49.960 of what the society. I disagree to continue that that 1:15:50.120 --> 1:15:53.600 coote to give up hoope. For global anarchists, revolution is 1:15:53.640 --> 1:15:56.839 not to resign oneself to anarchy, remaining any to protest. 1:15:57.320 --> 1:16:00.719 Seaweed puts it well. Revolution is not everywhere or nowhere. 1:16:01.080 --> 1:16:03.960 Any bioregion can be liberated through a succession of events 1:16:04.000 --> 1:16:07.120 and strategies based in the conditions unique to it, mostly 1:16:07.200 --> 1:16:09.519 as the grip of facilitation. That area weakens through its 1:16:09.560 --> 1:16:13.160 own volition for the efforts of its inhabitants. So aization 1:16:13.200 --> 1:16:15.759 didn't succeed everytones, and so it's undoing might only occur 1:16:16.080 --> 1:16:19.639 to varying degrees in different places at different times. Even 1:16:19.680 --> 1:16:22.160 if an area is seemingly fully under the control of authority, 1:16:22.439 --> 1:16:24.640 there always places to go to live in, to love in, 1:16:24.760 --> 1:16:27.959 and to resist from, and we can extend those spaces. 1:16:28.439 --> 1:16:31.320 The global situation may seem beyond us, but the local 1:16:31.439 --> 1:16:36.080 never is. And I think that's beautiful. I think that's 1:16:36.120 --> 1:16:38.560 like a That's one of the things that keeps me 1:16:38.640 --> 1:16:42.200 alive is ideas like that. Honestly, and at the same time. 1:16:42.520 --> 1:16:48.160 I also hold the opinion that none of us, including 1:16:48.200 --> 1:16:51.599 this author, is a fortune teller. You know. The desert's 1:16:51.600 --> 1:16:55.320 picture of the future is not the only possibility, you know. 1:16:55.600 --> 1:16:57.519 And I think in a lot of ways and a 1:16:57.560 --> 1:17:02.439 lot of always I believe that they can and have 1:17:02.680 --> 1:17:07.439 already been proven wrong, you know. Like, and there's an 1:17:07.479 --> 1:17:09.360 issue that I really take a lot of contention with 1:17:09.439 --> 1:17:11.400 the book. Part of the book that really pisces me 1:17:11.479 --> 1:17:17.080 off is the sort of persistence of the overpopulation myth. 1:17:18.200 --> 1:17:20.679 I don't remember it being so consistent since I reread 1:17:20.720 --> 1:17:24.360 it um a couple of weeks ago. And so this 1:17:24.439 --> 1:17:27.640 sort of nonchalance the author seems to have about like 1:17:28.560 --> 1:17:30.320 mass die offs and that kind of thing, you know, 1:17:30.400 --> 1:17:33.519 I think that's very troubling to me. That's very specific 1:17:33.640 --> 1:17:36.360 to It's a type of anti civil literature that's like 1:17:37.000 --> 1:17:41.240 we view civilization is going to progress towards genocide anyway, 1:17:41.640 --> 1:17:44.800 and the way to actually avoid more deaths is to 1:17:44.960 --> 1:17:48.280 kind of help the collapse along because that will end 1:17:48.360 --> 1:17:51.080 civilization quicker. So therefore less people, less people will be born, 1:17:51.080 --> 1:17:53.360 and less people will have to die. So that's the 1:17:53.439 --> 1:17:55.960 type of thinking they have. I don't necessarily agree with 1:17:56.080 --> 1:18:01.400 that um necessarily, but yeah, that is that is very 1:18:01.479 --> 1:18:04.840 typical of this type of literature, so again because it 1:18:05.000 --> 1:18:08.479 is written mostly for other anti sid anarchists, but like, yeah, 1:18:08.520 --> 1:18:12.040 it's not like pro genocide. It's saying genocide will happen. 1:18:12.280 --> 1:18:14.720 So the way to make less of it is to 1:18:15.320 --> 1:18:19.840 actually kind of slowly start kind of help helping the 1:18:19.880 --> 1:18:23.639 crumbles along essentially and while still you know, making people's 1:18:23.680 --> 1:18:26.160 lives better in your immediate community, like with that, with 1:18:26.240 --> 1:18:29.160 that very local focus. So again not not saying I 1:18:29.240 --> 1:18:32.000 necessarily agree with that, but that's the that's the type 1:18:32.040 --> 1:18:37.080 of thought it's engaging with. I mean, I think that's 1:18:37.320 --> 1:18:40.560 true of some of it. But there is definitely a 1:18:40.640 --> 1:18:44.360 lot of like panic about there's going to be nine 1:18:44.400 --> 1:18:49.880 billion people and like population growth of all the over 1:18:49.920 --> 1:18:52.000 population stuff is a little iffy. You know, there is 1:18:52.160 --> 1:18:54.640 a there's a discussion to have on caring capacity, but 1:18:54.760 --> 1:18:56.760 we are not there yet. We right now we way 1:18:56.840 --> 1:19:00.400 overproduced for them for the amount of people we have. Yeah, 1:19:00.840 --> 1:19:05.400 that and that, I don't know. That also frustrated me immensely. 1:19:07.240 --> 1:19:09.639 They're like, yeah, we we have consider they're talking about 1:19:09.640 --> 1:19:12.080 carring capacity, right, and they're like, oh, we already can't 1:19:12.240 --> 1:19:14.080 we have a billion people going hungry And it's like, yeah, 1:19:14.080 --> 1:19:16.080 but that's not about the carrying capacity. That's just that's 1:19:16.400 --> 1:19:20.920 that's which was literally that and that idea gained more 1:19:20.960 --> 1:19:24.080 prevalence after Dessert was written. We kind of more understood, 1:19:24.479 --> 1:19:27.640 like like culturally that it is a distribution issue, not 1:19:27.760 --> 1:19:30.679 necessarily a production issue. Now we do overproduce, right because 1:19:30.720 --> 1:19:32.960 and the amount of production we have contributes this tough 1:19:33.000 --> 1:19:34.960 like climate change, and that is bad. So we should 1:19:35.000 --> 1:19:37.439 tone down production, but we should make the ways that 1:19:37.520 --> 1:19:40.920 it's more sustainable and ecological. Um, yeah, that I think 1:19:40.960 --> 1:19:43.679 that does point towards the data nature of the text. 1:19:44.560 --> 1:19:47.400 I think Also my my last like thing with it 1:19:47.560 --> 1:19:52.760 is I think I think it could have benefited a 1:19:52.880 --> 1:19:56.720 lot from like in an indigenous stewardship perspective, because the 1:19:56.760 --> 1:19:59.040 way it thinks about it's particularly the way things but 1:19:59.160 --> 1:20:05.439 wildness versus observation is just very messy. And yeah, if 1:20:05.560 --> 1:20:09.000 it falls, it falls. It does a better job of 1:20:09.080 --> 1:20:12.599 it than some other antis of things that I've seen, 1:20:12.760 --> 1:20:16.000 but it definitely falls into the like trap of like 1:20:16.760 --> 1:20:19.439 here is the wild and then any attempt to manage 1:20:19.479 --> 1:20:23.479 it is uh, you know, is is civilization and you 1:20:23.560 --> 1:20:25.280 need to go back to the wild, and it's like, well, 1:20:25.640 --> 1:20:31.559 this is already stewarded and managed. That is the one. Yeah. 1:20:31.840 --> 1:20:34.720 It does fall on that slope of like nature being 1:20:34.880 --> 1:20:38.519 another that is sacred, which isn't necessarily a great idea 1:20:38.640 --> 1:20:41.000 nor is it really true. Yeah, this is very two, 1:20:42.520 --> 1:20:45.960 very two ten. Yeah. Right, So I think the the 1:20:46.160 --> 1:20:50.360 book is critical concitation and that sort of binary, and 1:20:50.400 --> 1:20:56.320 I agree that indigenous stewardship perspective was sorely needed. But 1:20:56.360 --> 1:20:59.040 at the same time, I do think that the way 1:20:59.120 --> 1:21:04.720 that the book criticizes UM or rather just points out UM, 1:21:05.200 --> 1:21:08.920 the su conservation may have been and may still be 1:21:09.560 --> 1:21:12.439 new for some people. You know, the idea that these 1:21:12.520 --> 1:21:19.479 sorts of government conservation projects which sort of preside over 1:21:19.560 --> 1:21:23.040 this sort of static vision of nature and ecology and 1:21:23.160 --> 1:21:28.479 stuff that is supposedly threatened by humanity. UM. I think 1:21:28.600 --> 1:21:33.240 criticizing that approach to nature it's good. I mean the 1:21:33.360 --> 1:21:36.799 sort of romanticization of the wild that is very typical 1:21:36.920 --> 1:21:42.720 of anti sive text and thought. UM is verty much 1:21:42.760 --> 1:21:49.360 anti sive. But I do believe that people should look 1:21:50.640 --> 1:21:57.120 ah or should rather resist these sorts of conservation impulse 1:21:58.479 --> 1:22:01.840 as I was rereading it a couple of weeks ago. 1:22:02.880 --> 1:22:05.320 I wanted to know, UM, what you guys thought of 1:22:07.000 --> 1:22:09.759 the section of the book that speaks of the different 1:22:11.080 --> 1:22:14.639 modern different, the the idea of fourth and fifth generation 1:22:14.720 --> 1:22:21.400 war Oh boy, that's a UM. I feel that that 1:22:21.560 --> 1:22:28.240 has been UM sort of a contributional approach to analyzing conflict. 1:22:28.400 --> 1:22:31.800 So I figured out, as you have been in you know, 1:22:32.000 --> 1:22:35.080 actual war zoons robot, that you might have a thing 1:22:35.280 --> 1:22:39.599 to see. UM. I mean, it's the kind of thing 1:22:39.640 --> 1:22:43.960 that we should probably cover in in detail on because 1:22:44.000 --> 1:22:46.680 this is a lot of like William Lynde stuff. I 1:22:46.720 --> 1:22:48.160 think he's the guy who came up with the idea 1:22:48.200 --> 1:22:51.000 of like fourth generation war less at least, and it's UM, 1:22:51.680 --> 1:22:55.080 it's basically the idea. It's the idea that warfare UM 1:22:55.400 --> 1:22:58.000 today is conducted through a lot of stuff that's not 1:22:58.200 --> 1:23:02.960 conventional weaponry, right, so stuff like UM like like like 1:23:03.400 --> 1:23:07.880 putting bought networks together to like push social division, you 1:23:07.960 --> 1:23:11.519 know through um social media, UM or carrying out cyber 1:23:11.560 --> 1:23:15.880 attacks on infrastructure, disinformation UM, all of that kind of stuff, 1:23:16.400 --> 1:23:18.960 which is I think accurate. I've been reporting on what 1:23:19.080 --> 1:23:25.960 you could call fifth generation warfare since some UM. I 1:23:26.040 --> 1:23:29.920 think it's I think to the extent that it's relevant here. 1:23:30.120 --> 1:23:32.320 I think one thing that people in the left need 1:23:32.360 --> 1:23:36.280 to acknowledge is that they have UM been blindsided by 1:23:36.360 --> 1:23:41.280 the effectiveness that the far right has adapted to UM 1:23:41.680 --> 1:23:44.920 the key components of this kind of warfare. And I 1:23:45.000 --> 1:23:48.840 think nothing is more key than social engineering and disinformation UM. 1:23:49.040 --> 1:23:52.280 And they've been much more successful at it over the 1:23:52.400 --> 1:23:56.120 last release ince twos in fifteen in particular, UM, than 1:23:56.200 --> 1:23:59.800 the left has by basically everywhere, every single and by 1:24:00.000 --> 1:24:02.760 I think, every single measure of of success. And I 1:24:03.160 --> 1:24:05.680 think this is something we should save in depth for 1:24:06.160 --> 1:24:10.960 another day UM. But I think that it is worth 1:24:11.000 --> 1:24:14.439 acknowledging that this is And I also think that and 1:24:14.560 --> 1:24:17.000 this is again part of a bigger conversation we talked 1:24:17.000 --> 1:24:19.000 about the concept of like culture jamming, when we talked 1:24:19.000 --> 1:24:21.680 about like operation mind fuck you know, which is Discordian 1:24:21.840 --> 1:24:24.880 idea UM, all of which you can see is kind 1:24:24.960 --> 1:24:28.759 of pre predecessors to the concepts of fifth generation warfare. 1:24:29.040 --> 1:24:31.080 I think there's a strong argument to be made that 1:24:31.200 --> 1:24:34.640 those efforts by leftists in the eighties and nineties in 1:24:34.760 --> 1:24:39.400 particular actually contributed to the substantial right wing victories that 1:24:39.479 --> 1:24:42.560 we're seeing right now in this space. UM, and I 1:24:42.880 --> 1:24:45.360 think maybe it's I think there's a number of reasons 1:24:45.600 --> 1:24:48.639 for that, um, including some to some extent, the idea 1:24:48.680 --> 1:24:51.240 of arrogance that um that what that we were just 1:24:51.360 --> 1:24:53.360 too smart, that they were never going to figure out 1:24:53.439 --> 1:24:55.519 how to utilize the same means we had or to 1:24:55.840 --> 1:24:58.960 kind of judo like take the momentum for that and 1:24:59.080 --> 1:25:01.880 spin it around on us. But they were and they did, 1:25:02.160 --> 1:25:05.280 and yeah, that'll that'll lead into another episode. We'll have 1:25:05.360 --> 1:25:08.040 to talk about this in more detail. That's something like 1:25:08.120 --> 1:25:10.560 Grant Morrison actually talks a lot about in regards to 1:25:10.640 --> 1:25:14.439 discordionism and this type of how how you know, he 1:25:14.720 --> 1:25:17.439 used to work for a company called Disinformation back when 1:25:17.479 --> 1:25:21.760 Disinformation was yeah, and now it's like one of the 1:25:21.840 --> 1:25:25.280 leading castes of mass death in the world, right, so 1:25:25.720 --> 1:25:27.960 he That is something that Morrison talks about a lot 1:25:28.000 --> 1:25:31.000 in terms of how they did have that arrogance and 1:25:31.080 --> 1:25:33.519 now the same forces that they used in hopes of 1:25:33.600 --> 1:25:36.360 making the world better and now being used to regress 1:25:36.479 --> 1:25:40.519 the world and make it worse. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I 1:25:40.600 --> 1:25:43.200 had a big copy of Disinformation on my coffee table 1:25:43.240 --> 1:25:49.160 when I was nineteen. I just ordered, Oh good, there's 1:25:49.200 --> 1:25:55.479 some fun essays in their Garrett. Um, all right, that'll probably, 1:25:55.920 --> 1:25:57.200 I mean, did you have more to say on that? 1:25:57.479 --> 1:26:00.200 And yeah, I just wanted to see that, you know, 1:26:00.360 --> 1:26:05.320 regardless of the uncertain future, um, regardless of your stance 1:26:05.439 --> 1:26:10.840 on get Its message, however flawed. UM here now, as 1:26:11.320 --> 1:26:16.960 the minor goods in Alice Suxley's Island so often repeat, um, 1:26:17.800 --> 1:26:20.240 we can and should pay attention to what we can 1:26:20.320 --> 1:26:23.599 do to support ourselves for whatever outcome you go through, 1:26:24.479 --> 1:26:28.479 you know, projects within the spaces we inhabit. I believe 1:26:28.560 --> 1:26:31.320 that anarchism could be the seed of the new will. 1:26:31.640 --> 1:26:34.519 I do believe that we have an impact, a huge 1:26:34.520 --> 1:26:39.439 impact on society and on politics, and I believe there 1:26:39.479 --> 1:26:46.400 are still many possibilities for liberty still. Yeah, I I 1:26:46.760 --> 1:26:50.320 do as well. I think that acknowledging you know, failures 1:26:50.479 --> 1:26:54.240 both of of of you know, ideas and of methods 1:26:54.360 --> 1:26:58.320 doesn't mean giving up hope or or ignoring the successes 1:26:58.479 --> 1:27:03.679 of those same things which which we're are also present. Um. Yeah, 1:27:03.960 --> 1:27:09.760 so I don't know, stay optimistic. Read something uh doesn't 1:27:09.800 --> 1:27:11.599 have to beat but just go go read a thing 1:27:12.000 --> 1:27:15.439 read Yeah, back of your shampoo, B but especially if 1:27:15.439 --> 1:27:18.599 it's Dr Brauner's a lot of good stuff in there. UM. 1:27:19.479 --> 1:27:21.880 All right, that's gonna do it for us this week 1:27:24.360 --> 1:27:40.240 today at least welcome to It could happen here the 1:27:40.320 --> 1:27:44.000 podcast we already recorded and I messed up, um or 1:27:44.160 --> 1:27:46.200 something happened with the zoom and we lost the audio. 1:27:46.240 --> 1:27:49.240 So now we're recording it again as is, as is 1:27:49.360 --> 1:27:53.240 the cycle of life. UM. Thankfully I can. I'm now 1:27:53.320 --> 1:27:55.920 on my tenth shot of espresso of the day and 1:27:56.040 --> 1:27:58.479 it is eight pm, so I'm I'm ready. I'm I'm 1:27:58.560 --> 1:28:01.519 ready this time to a We're gonna be doing another 1:28:01.640 --> 1:28:06.960 one of our chronicles into open source and ocean style 1:28:07.080 --> 1:28:10.160 research or open source verification and this kind of side 1:28:10.680 --> 1:28:12.840 of of generally you know, this is kind of a 1:28:12.880 --> 1:28:16.200 field of like anti fascist research, UM and journalism. So 1:28:16.880 --> 1:28:20.560 we're looking at one of these case studies. UM. But 1:28:20.720 --> 1:28:25.920 today I have someone with me, Alistair from Opossum Press 1:28:26.600 --> 1:28:30.200 is here to talk about sent and UH and this 1:28:30.280 --> 1:28:34.760 type of research. Hello, Hey, thank you for being with 1:28:34.920 --> 1:28:38.320 me again on this on this call, on this very 1:28:38.760 --> 1:28:44.519 Deshavo experience for us. UM. I would actually first like 1:28:44.680 --> 1:28:49.280 to talk about how Opossum Press got started as like 1:28:49.360 --> 1:28:52.400 a collective of of people dedicated towards this goal of, 1:28:52.479 --> 1:28:58.360 you know, surveying the fascist creep. Um. I had an 1:28:58.479 --> 1:29:03.360 interest in and journalism. I have no experience in it, 1:29:03.640 --> 1:29:06.559 but I have other friends that are into writing and stuff, 1:29:06.600 --> 1:29:10.400 and I just kind of reached out to friends like, Hey, 1:29:10.439 --> 1:29:14.479 would anybody be interested in doing this? And um, there 1:29:14.520 --> 1:29:17.400 are several friends that were like, hell, yeah, let's do this. 1:29:17.760 --> 1:29:20.960 And that's pretty much it. After we got it all formed. Um, 1:29:22.000 --> 1:29:27.439 we set up some open source intel like workshops and 1:29:27.680 --> 1:29:30.640 we've about every other week we get together for two 1:29:30.720 --> 1:29:34.439 or three hours and learned stuff that sounds that sounds 1:29:34.479 --> 1:29:37.720 lovely actually, Um, most of my stuff is usually done 1:29:37.720 --> 1:29:41.400 alone in my computer dark when I'm on my again 1:29:41.479 --> 1:29:43.720 tenth cup of coffee of the day. Do we go 1:29:43.840 --> 1:29:45.200 s into a group of people like that sounds like 1:29:45.240 --> 1:29:47.479 it could be actually kind of fun, So yeah, we're 1:29:47.479 --> 1:29:51.080 gonna In our last episode, we talked about how I 1:29:51.600 --> 1:29:54.160 tracked down and found out who written house was the 1:29:54.280 --> 1:29:59.759 night of of that happening in Kenosha Um and today 1:30:00.040 --> 1:30:03.479 and me talking about someone related to January six, um, 1:30:03.720 --> 1:30:08.519 the infamous zip tie guy as he became known for 1:30:08.680 --> 1:30:11.640 like two days on the internet before he got his 1:30:11.720 --> 1:30:14.720 actual day. UM. First, I I guess I probably I 1:30:14.800 --> 1:30:17.400 probably in case you haven't listened to the previous episode 1:30:17.520 --> 1:30:19.759 I did on Written House, so probably kind of explain 1:30:19.840 --> 1:30:23.000 what open source stuff is and what like Osan is 1:30:23.040 --> 1:30:27.160 and verification. So it's about trying to track down information 1:30:27.360 --> 1:30:31.639 using open sources UM on the Internet. So in terms 1:30:31.680 --> 1:30:34.479 of like nothing is it's it's all. It's it's it's 1:30:34.520 --> 1:30:37.280 it's it's already sitting there. Nothing requires like special access, 1:30:37.400 --> 1:30:42.200 nothing requires you know, you're to hack into anyone system. UM, 1:30:42.800 --> 1:30:45.519 it's it's stuff is just the stuff that's already sitting there. 1:30:45.560 --> 1:30:49.080 The data, whether that be you know, geographical data, personal data, 1:30:49.240 --> 1:30:52.960 data from social media accounts, data from every time you've 1:30:53.120 --> 1:30:55.479 entered your email into a random website that you maybe 1:30:55.520 --> 1:30:57.439 didn't know quite what's going on, but you did it. 1:30:58.040 --> 1:31:00.519 Something that's that gets stored somewhere as day to and 1:31:00.960 --> 1:31:03.240 someone can probably find it. UM. So it's all this 1:31:03.280 --> 1:31:06.000 stuff about you on the Internet that is all open 1:31:06.080 --> 1:31:10.400 if you do the digging. UM. Often cases this results 1:31:10.439 --> 1:31:13.080 in going through social media profiles. UM. That is a 1:31:13.920 --> 1:31:16.960 good portion of Osan's work is learning how to use 1:31:17.040 --> 1:31:19.680 Google really well and how to how to how to 1:31:19.760 --> 1:31:23.719 go through social media. Um, start using like Google search operators, 1:31:23.760 --> 1:31:27.439 start using social media tools that help you sort through information. 1:31:27.479 --> 1:31:29.680 Because the information is there, you just have to learn 1:31:29.680 --> 1:31:31.240 how to sort through it, right, because there's just so 1:31:31.400 --> 1:31:34.280 much of it. Um. So that's kind of the just 1:31:34.439 --> 1:31:36.120 to what open source stuff is. You mean, eventually you 1:31:36.120 --> 1:31:38.240 can get into the stuff like using like Python, using 1:31:38.280 --> 1:31:41.120 code and scrapers like all that stuff is there too, 1:31:41.240 --> 1:31:42.920 but for our purposes, we're gonna stick to the more 1:31:42.960 --> 1:31:46.280 simplistic stuff because this is an audio format and I'm 1:31:46.439 --> 1:31:52.519 I'm not going to start explaining Python code on a podcast. Um. 1:31:53.040 --> 1:31:57.280 So let's let's let's turn back the clocks a year. Um, 1:31:57.760 --> 1:32:00.160 a little over a year, and it's a genu where 1:32:00.200 --> 1:32:03.080 he six what's kind of you or your collective's reaction 1:32:03.240 --> 1:32:05.640 just to kind of watching things unfold? You know, Like 1:32:05.960 --> 1:32:08.479 as a researcher, every every time I look at these 1:32:08.520 --> 1:32:10.840 types of you know, protests, you know, whether they be 1:32:10.920 --> 1:32:13.000 big or small, always part of my brains like trying 1:32:13.040 --> 1:32:15.559 to make connections and do stuff right. So as January 1:32:15.600 --> 1:32:18.559 six is unfolding, what's what's kind of going through everyone 1:32:18.600 --> 1:32:21.680 at a post and press his head. The first thing 1:32:21.800 --> 1:32:25.000 that seemed to be collective in everybody's mind was, oh 1:32:25.120 --> 1:32:28.920 my god, none of these people are wearing face masks. Yeah. 1:32:30.439 --> 1:32:33.080 Like the immediate thing is this is probably going to 1:32:33.160 --> 1:32:36.600 be really easy for a lot of people. There's nobody. 1:32:37.000 --> 1:32:39.639 Nobody is in any type of like block or trying 1:32:39.680 --> 1:32:42.360 to hide their identity in at all, something you see 1:32:42.560 --> 1:32:45.080 the European fascists actually doing more often. There was a 1:32:45.560 --> 1:32:47.559 think of a video from Germany of a whole bunch 1:32:47.600 --> 1:32:49.639 of far right dudees just to ian black block because 1:32:49.680 --> 1:32:53.519 black blocks a tactic. Um. So yeah, but in the 1:32:53.640 --> 1:32:57.519 States they're specifically January six, it was Yeah, no one 1:32:57.640 --> 1:33:00.400 was really worried about keeping their identity secret. They really 1:33:00.439 --> 1:33:03.840 did not think what they were doing was wrong. I 1:33:03.920 --> 1:33:07.200 think the other thing we were a lot of us 1:33:07.280 --> 1:33:13.000 were really angry. Um, just like we had been like 1:33:13.240 --> 1:33:16.400 yelling that this was gonna happen, screaming it out, like 1:33:16.560 --> 1:33:19.720 trying to get people to pay attention, and we got 1:33:19.840 --> 1:33:22.800 blown off so much. I remember, just like a few 1:33:22.920 --> 1:33:26.000 days before, I got in an argument with a Facebook 1:33:26.080 --> 1:33:28.840 friend and like people need to be paying attention, like 1:33:29.000 --> 1:33:32.040 they're planning something. They're like, oh, it's fine, it's fine, 1:33:32.720 --> 1:33:34.880 and then you know, just a few days later, I'm like, 1:33:34.920 --> 1:33:37.840 oh is it fine? Like that is kind of always 1:33:37.880 --> 1:33:40.519 the curse of surveilling all of these things, whether they 1:33:40.600 --> 1:33:43.920 be like a specific event or some movement in general. Right, 1:33:44.000 --> 1:33:46.320 people who are really into q and on before the 1:33:46.439 --> 1:33:48.960 Libs knew what Qumanan was and we're warning about it 1:33:49.040 --> 1:33:54.880 for years before you know it resulted in people dying. Um, Right, 1:33:54.960 --> 1:33:56.920 That's that's kind of always the curse of these things. 1:33:57.560 --> 1:33:59.640 So it's it's you get you get the mix of 1:33:59.720 --> 1:34:03.280 the shock and horror of the thing finally happening in 1:34:03.360 --> 1:34:06.599 a weird relief. It's it's it's it's it's a very 1:34:06.640 --> 1:34:10.200 bizarre feeling to watch these things unfold because you're like, oh, 1:34:10.320 --> 1:34:14.439 I'm vindicated, but it sucks that I'm vindicated. Right. I remember, 1:34:14.560 --> 1:34:18.640 like the December watching all these groups, like I was 1:34:18.800 --> 1:34:22.599 just it was just filled with dread. Um, I knew 1:34:22.760 --> 1:34:25.679 something was gonna happen. I didn't know what was gonna happen, 1:34:26.160 --> 1:34:28.760 and it was just so much anxiety. And then like 1:34:29.320 --> 1:34:32.120 it's funny, January six after it happened, like it all 1:34:32.160 --> 1:34:34.080 went away. I was able to get a decent night 1:34:34.200 --> 1:34:38.719 sleep just because there was I didn't have that build 1:34:38.800 --> 1:34:41.600 up of suspense of what what is it gonna be, 1:34:41.840 --> 1:34:43.960 what's it gonna look like? How bad is it going 1:34:44.040 --> 1:34:49.400 to be? Kind of had that release. Yeah, Unfortunately they 1:34:49.479 --> 1:34:52.240 were all like amateur, didn't know what they were doing, 1:34:52.320 --> 1:34:56.160 and it wasn't as bad as it could have been. Yeah. Well, 1:34:56.439 --> 1:34:58.880 I think as for the open source stuff, I'm gonna 1:34:58.920 --> 1:35:01.840 kind of walk us through chronologically and of in terms 1:35:01.920 --> 1:35:06.960 of the journey of zip Tie Guy because I was 1:35:07.040 --> 1:35:09.920 doing like archiving on January six, but zip Ti Guy 1:35:10.040 --> 1:35:13.280 was really the only dude I was interested in identifying. 1:35:13.439 --> 1:35:15.479 There was there was a lot of other people doing 1:35:15.560 --> 1:35:20.120 really great identification work. I was also generous. Six I 1:35:20.160 --> 1:35:23.320 was going through all the social media history of Ashley Babbitt, 1:35:23.800 --> 1:35:27.479 archiving all of her Twitter and Facebook like years of stuff. 1:35:27.880 --> 1:35:30.880 I was to chronicle how she went from like an 1:35:30.920 --> 1:35:33.640 Obama voter to a Q and on from proponent. So 1:35:33.920 --> 1:35:35.439 that was what I was doing, and I was writing 1:35:35.439 --> 1:35:38.400 an article with Belling Cat about that um. But the 1:35:38.479 --> 1:35:40.720 only only other guy I wanted to identify was zip 1:35:40.800 --> 1:35:43.240 tie Guy because he was really interesting. He was one 1:35:43.280 --> 1:35:46.280 of the few guys that was masked up. Um he 1:35:46.439 --> 1:35:48.240 had what he had visible weapons on him. He was 1:35:48.240 --> 1:35:51.280 obviously carrying zip ties. You know. It gives you images 1:35:51.360 --> 1:35:54.080 of like, oh yeah, it's like they're planning to capture 1:35:54.120 --> 1:35:56.479 and execute people. That was like the general kind of 1:35:56.680 --> 1:36:00.479 vibe um of that. So he is the only person 1:36:00.560 --> 1:36:02.800 I was actually put work into identifying, and I put 1:36:02.840 --> 1:36:05.240 a decent amount of work in Now I I failed 1:36:05.479 --> 1:36:07.840 where other people succeeded, and we can talk about like 1:36:07.960 --> 1:36:12.000 why in a sec But for like a day at least, 1:36:12.120 --> 1:36:14.840 all we had to go on was the picture of 1:36:15.160 --> 1:36:19.200 the guy holding the zip ties in a mask. Um. 1:36:20.080 --> 1:36:22.080 There's a few other pictures of him around from that day, 1:36:22.080 --> 1:36:26.000 but it's mostly mostly one picture and the biggest clue 1:36:26.080 --> 1:36:29.360 that we had to start with, Um, what what what what? 1:36:29.520 --> 1:36:31.280 Why don't you explain what the what the first clue 1:36:31.400 --> 1:36:33.680 is and how that may be piqued your interest. He 1:36:33.800 --> 1:36:37.479 had two patches on his vest, and one of them 1:36:37.720 --> 1:36:40.080 was a thin blue line patch, but it was in 1:36:40.160 --> 1:36:46.000 this uh shape of the state of Tennessee. So so yeah, 1:36:46.080 --> 1:36:50.080 in terms of having a decent lead, that is like okay, 1:36:50.200 --> 1:36:52.400 well that that narrows it down to one of fifties 1:36:52.400 --> 1:36:56.240 states probably right, Yeah, I should say I'm from Knoxville, 1:36:56.439 --> 1:36:59.599 so like it be in Tennessee that I picked up 1:36:59.600 --> 1:37:01.960 on that because that's my state. Yeah, that it becomes 1:37:02.000 --> 1:37:04.320 a local problem. I And as someone in Oregon, I 1:37:04.439 --> 1:37:08.639 definitely understand that feeling of of yeah, when fascism becomes 1:37:08.680 --> 1:37:13.479 a local problem of Yeah. So that definitely piqued your 1:37:13.560 --> 1:37:16.120 interests specifically, but then it also gives a really good 1:37:16.200 --> 1:37:19.960 lead for like where to look because osar, he's not 1:37:20.160 --> 1:37:23.439 trying to do a meta thing by tricking us into 1:37:23.520 --> 1:37:26.680 giving us a false lead. Generally people don't do that 1:37:26.800 --> 1:37:30.200 as often in real life as they do in television. Um, 1:37:31.320 --> 1:37:33.240 but there's still has plenty of other ways to detect. 1:37:33.280 --> 1:37:36.000 I mean, I I love I love detecting, and there's 1:37:36.120 --> 1:37:39.120 there's enough, there's enough stuff to do otherwise that making 1:37:39.120 --> 1:37:42.760 it needlessly complicated as honestly, I'm fine with it not 1:37:42.880 --> 1:37:47.880 being that. Um So, yeah, we had we had that 1:37:48.080 --> 1:37:52.960 to go off initially, so starting looking for like far 1:37:53.120 --> 1:37:55.720 right activity in Tennessee. Now, I was an outsider, so 1:37:55.760 --> 1:37:57.200 I didn't really know where to start in terms of 1:37:57.800 --> 1:38:01.519 specific rallies. But I know you uh at what point 1:38:01.600 --> 1:38:03.799 did you start looking trying to like go through pictures 1:38:03.800 --> 1:38:07.040 of specific rallies to try to like match clothing or stuff. 1:38:07.760 --> 1:38:09.960 I think it was probably it may have been that 1:38:10.200 --> 1:38:13.200 day or the day after when I started going through 1:38:13.520 --> 1:38:18.679 the notebooks that I had, like names of just people 1:38:18.760 --> 1:38:23.639 we suspected may become problems, um, and I started looking 1:38:23.680 --> 1:38:28.879 at their profiles again and you know, didn't find anything. 1:38:29.479 --> 1:38:32.080 And in our research that we had already done, we 1:38:32.200 --> 1:38:35.640 didn't see anything on Yeah, I mean that was kind 1:38:35.640 --> 1:38:37.120 of the case for me as well. With just the 1:38:37.160 --> 1:38:40.320 picture of the zip tie a guy with the patch, 1:38:40.439 --> 1:38:42.280 I mean, it's it's a lead, but there wasn't tons 1:38:42.360 --> 1:38:47.160 to go on. But thankfully, thankfully are are good friends. 1:38:47.200 --> 1:38:51.320 At January six, we're giving us more clues as because, 1:38:52.040 --> 1:38:55.120 as the Simpsons meme goes, videotaping this crime scene was 1:38:55.160 --> 1:38:59.480 the best idea you ever had. Um. So, like January 1:38:59.640 --> 1:39:03.160 I think seventh, there was a live stream video that 1:39:03.280 --> 1:39:06.400 was kind of circulating through like anti fascist group chats um. 1:39:06.560 --> 1:39:08.479 It was. It was posted like publicly to get everyone's 1:39:08.479 --> 1:39:11.240 attention on it on January eight, um, but for like 1:39:11.280 --> 1:39:13.360 a day it was kind of passing through back channels 1:39:13.880 --> 1:39:17.000 and throughout in this live stream, which is Yeah, there 1:39:17.120 --> 1:39:19.840 was so many people were live streaming that night, and 1:39:20.000 --> 1:39:22.400 it is a kind of surreal thing to watch of them. 1:39:23.320 --> 1:39:25.640 This this this live stream in particular, it is zip 1:39:25.720 --> 1:39:28.280 Ti guy if you was friends, um, I think his 1:39:28.439 --> 1:39:30.439 mom and a few and just running the people from 1:39:30.479 --> 1:39:33.960 January six all hanging out at a hotel room afterwards, 1:39:34.120 --> 1:39:36.080 like it's it is. It is the night of the sixth, 1:39:36.400 --> 1:39:40.639 and they're all just hanging out again totally like no masks, 1:39:40.680 --> 1:39:43.360 they're they're they're in a hotel lobby, no masks, um, 1:39:43.680 --> 1:39:45.559 and they're just like hanging out on chilling, like sitting 1:39:45.600 --> 1:39:47.360 on the couch and chatting for like half an hour. 1:39:47.840 --> 1:39:50.280 It's one of the weirdest videos to watch. All all 1:39:50.320 --> 1:39:52.519 of the live streams from that night are so surreal 1:39:53.080 --> 1:39:56.160 because it is like this transitionary period of like after 1:39:56.240 --> 1:39:59.600 the capital attack, but before every before like people like 1:39:59.680 --> 1:40:01.800 gown out on them, so they don't really know how 1:40:01.880 --> 1:40:03.880 to behave They still think what they did was kind 1:40:03.880 --> 1:40:06.000 of fine, even though at this point I think like 1:40:06.040 --> 1:40:08.920 four or five people are dead, um, but it's so 1:40:09.120 --> 1:40:11.719 weird just watch them just interact like such normal people 1:40:11.880 --> 1:40:14.680 in this moment like after they did this thing, then 1:40:14.720 --> 1:40:17.280 they go in this hotel room and they're acting completely normal. 1:40:17.400 --> 1:40:20.120 So it's it's just a weird video in general. But 1:40:20.920 --> 1:40:23.599 what it does have is someone in the same outfit 1:40:23.680 --> 1:40:26.719 as Zip Tie guy with no mask on. You actually 1:40:26.760 --> 1:40:30.280 actually can see his full face. Ye. Getting to see 1:40:30.320 --> 1:40:34.840 his full face was a big, big, big help because 1:40:35.120 --> 1:40:37.559 we everyone, everyone was looking for pictures of this guy 1:40:37.640 --> 1:40:40.200 without his mask all like for the entirety of the day. 1:40:40.439 --> 1:40:42.920 So now having a whole video where we're gonna see 1:40:42.960 --> 1:40:45.600 like all of the angles of him was great. It 1:40:45.760 --> 1:40:48.599 was perfect. The best the best thing that was really 1:40:48.640 --> 1:40:51.360 the beauty of of all of of all of all 1:40:51.400 --> 1:40:54.240 the January six documentation is how many people were live 1:40:54.320 --> 1:40:57.439 streaming themselves doing crimes and their friends. Um it did. 1:40:57.600 --> 1:41:00.760 It did make the archiving and uh well the archiving part. 1:41:00.920 --> 1:41:04.000 Archiving is always painful and tedious, but it made the 1:41:04.000 --> 1:41:06.519 actual research afterwards a lot easier because there was so 1:41:06.600 --> 1:41:09.599 much the documentation of it. So, yeah, we we got 1:41:09.640 --> 1:41:12.240 we got this video. I'm gonna explain how I kind 1:41:12.280 --> 1:41:15.959 of took this video and failed to reach the conclusion, 1:41:16.040 --> 1:41:18.920 and then we can talk about how you succeeded. But first, 1:41:19.479 --> 1:41:22.599 but first we're gonna hear some ads from our lovely 1:41:23.000 --> 1:41:27.120 products and services. Robert was here for our previous recording 1:41:27.600 --> 1:41:30.680 uh that we tried to end I failed, and he 1:41:30.840 --> 1:41:33.519 made some very good jokes uh and very good segways 1:41:33.600 --> 1:41:37.479 about how all of our sponsors support insurrection, just like 1:41:37.600 --> 1:41:40.000 January six, And if I tried to repeat the jokes, 1:41:40.040 --> 1:41:41.920 it will be stupid. So I'm just gonna I'm just 1:41:41.960 --> 1:41:43.960 gonna give you the sense there was a joke, and 1:41:44.000 --> 1:41:48.000 now you're gonna be left with that dissatisfaction. So bye, goodbye. 1:41:48.200 --> 1:41:52.040 Here's some ads. Okay, we're back, and I'm going to 1:41:52.120 --> 1:41:54.920 give an extremely brief rundown on how I failed to do. 1:41:55.360 --> 1:41:57.920 Uh well, I didn't fail to do research. I did research. 1:41:57.920 --> 1:42:00.920 I just didn't reach a proper conclusion. And I knew that. 1:42:01.120 --> 1:42:04.240 So the the the other the other thing about Zip 1:42:04.320 --> 1:42:07.560 tie Guy, he had he had the patch of like 1:42:07.640 --> 1:42:10.880 the sim blue line in Tennessee, and then it's then 1:42:11.000 --> 1:42:14.840 I soon after got the video of his face and 1:42:15.080 --> 1:42:17.960 uh interacting with people. And the the other thing is 1:42:18.000 --> 1:42:21.120 I think, um we the hat he was wearing in 1:42:21.200 --> 1:42:24.759 the Zip tie Guy photo was I think was tracked 1:42:24.840 --> 1:42:29.679 back to be um our favorite coffee company, Black Rifle 1:42:29.720 --> 1:42:32.360 Coffy Merchandise. It was it was like, what was what 1:42:32.520 --> 1:42:36.400 was one of the hats they sell? So me, being clever, 1:42:36.520 --> 1:42:39.000 I'm like, okay, here's this Black Raper Coffee hat. This 1:42:39.120 --> 1:42:42.320 patch in Tennessee. I know Black Ripe Coffee is based 1:42:42.360 --> 1:42:45.120 out of Tennessee. I'm gonna go look through everyone who 1:42:45.160 --> 1:42:47.000 works for Black Raffle Coffee, which I mean isn't a 1:42:47.080 --> 1:42:50.640 bad instinct as an outsider, but it did not. It 1:42:50.680 --> 1:42:53.040 did not succeed. But the funny thing is is that 1:42:53.680 --> 1:42:56.479 while looking through all the employees at Black Apple Coffee, 1:42:56.720 --> 1:42:58.960 all of them do look identical to Zip Tie guy. 1:42:59.200 --> 1:43:03.679 They all same characteristics, They all look exactly the same 1:43:03.800 --> 1:43:06.920 on their their beards, their nose, their forehead, their hair, 1:43:07.280 --> 1:43:09.600 all of them identical, every single one of them, to 1:43:09.640 --> 1:43:11.479 the point where the only way I could tell that 1:43:11.600 --> 1:43:13.439 it wasn't a SIPTI guy was being like, Okay, no, 1:43:13.880 --> 1:43:16.879 he has a mole here, he has like a birthmark 1:43:16.960 --> 1:43:19.479 here this way, his like his eyes are his eye 1:43:19.520 --> 1:43:21.519 wrinkles are different. So it's like it's going down to 1:43:21.600 --> 1:43:25.160 the very like fine tuned facial features. Because all of 1:43:25.240 --> 1:43:29.360 their face shapes are like identical. I think there's a 1:43:29.439 --> 1:43:31.479 point that I had the same instinct. I think I 1:43:32.080 --> 1:43:35.160 know there's a point that I went through, um the 1:43:35.240 --> 1:43:39.680 black Coffee Rifle, all of their people look. Um. I 1:43:39.760 --> 1:43:43.120 don't know if it was for Eric Wentel or if 1:43:43.200 --> 1:43:49.240 it was like maybe around the Rittenhouse stuff. I don't know. Uh. Yeah, 1:43:49.400 --> 1:43:51.639 So that that's that's what I spent my time doing, 1:43:51.880 --> 1:43:57.400 is going through everybody who works there of Uh. But 1:43:57.680 --> 1:43:59.280 but by the time I kind of gave up on 1:43:59.400 --> 1:44:04.240 that of the identity was already discovered, um and posted 1:44:04.479 --> 1:44:08.360 by your team at a possum press. So how how 1:44:08.439 --> 1:44:11.880 did you get from you know, this zip Tygi picture 1:44:12.240 --> 1:44:16.000 than the light the archived livestream video of him without 1:44:16.000 --> 1:44:18.559 without a mask, to to the point where you could say, hey, 1:44:19.000 --> 1:44:22.439 this is his name. But well, I was I wasn't 1:44:22.479 --> 1:44:26.800 even really in contact with Like we as a group 1:44:26.960 --> 1:44:30.280 weren't messaging each other trying to figure this out together, 1:44:30.840 --> 1:44:33.280 but we were, like it turns out a few of 1:44:33.400 --> 1:44:38.280 us were working separately. So while I'm going through social media, um, 1:44:38.400 --> 1:44:42.560 a friend in Nashville was um going through pictures of 1:44:42.640 --> 1:44:47.200 the protests from there over the summer and they ended 1:44:47.280 --> 1:44:50.560 up finding about five different pictures, I think, and we 1:44:50.720 --> 1:44:53.799 knew we knew most of the people in the pictures 1:44:53.880 --> 1:44:55.639 that are maybe like one or two that we did 1:44:55.720 --> 1:44:59.360 not know, And one was always Eric Munchell and he's 1:44:59.400 --> 1:45:03.760 wearing the exact same gear he wore January six. Um, 1:45:04.160 --> 1:45:07.000 I say, Eric Munchell, we didn't know his name yet then, 1:45:07.800 --> 1:45:11.880 so um. From there, we kind of we went ahead 1:45:11.920 --> 1:45:15.200 and posted what we had to Twitter, and then we 1:45:15.280 --> 1:45:17.920 went back to the social media and I started looking 1:45:18.040 --> 1:45:23.120 through the profiles that were the people we knew, and 1:45:23.320 --> 1:45:28.040 sure enough, one of them, Kurt Dennis, had a live 1:45:28.120 --> 1:45:32.880 stream that was telling the story, um, the same story 1:45:32.960 --> 1:45:35.880 that Eric Mutchell told him, that thirty minute video, and 1:45:37.680 --> 1:45:40.840 he actually while telling it, he's like, yeah, my buddy Eric. 1:45:42.200 --> 1:45:46.439 So at that point we go to his friends list 1:45:46.560 --> 1:45:49.400 and sure enough, he only has one Eric there and 1:45:49.600 --> 1:45:52.599 it's Eric Munchell. And there we go to that page 1:45:52.680 --> 1:45:54.799 and find some of the same gear in the background 1:45:54.840 --> 1:45:57.760 of the pictures that he has publicly posted. Yeah, he 1:45:57.880 --> 1:45:59.519 like puts the pictures of him and his gear with 1:45:59.600 --> 1:46:02.320 like ums and yeah, you can you can track all 1:46:02.360 --> 1:46:05.439 of this like facial like like like like birthmarks and stuff. 1:46:05.439 --> 1:46:08.800 They're all the same. So, yeah, you and that that's you. Uh, 1:46:09.400 --> 1:46:14.679 you definitely got him of Yeah, their own mistakes. Yeah, 1:46:14.720 --> 1:46:17.559 that's that's my favorite part. Like they they gave us 1:46:18.160 --> 1:46:21.720 his identity. They often, if not handing themselves to you 1:46:21.800 --> 1:46:24.880 on a silver pilladder, they at least have a platter um. 1:46:25.280 --> 1:46:27.639 They they often there's often enough bread, right. The reason 1:46:27.680 --> 1:46:29.599 why these things are solved because there are enough bread 1:46:29.640 --> 1:46:32.160 comes to follow and often they kind of leave pretty 1:46:32.240 --> 1:46:36.000 big chunks of bread. Um. Just the fact that again 1:46:36.320 --> 1:46:39.240 added to the surreal aspect of that whole live stream video, 1:46:40.080 --> 1:46:42.639 the fact that he's like you matched it by telling 1:46:42.720 --> 1:46:45.360 the same You can hear them someone tell the same story. 1:46:45.400 --> 1:46:49.600 It's just such a weird, surreal thing. Yeah. So I 1:46:49.680 --> 1:46:52.160 think in terms of like oas and stuff, what this 1:46:52.760 --> 1:46:57.439 case study in particular really highlights is the importance of 1:46:58.360 --> 1:47:01.000 archival stuff, right, some why you were able to solve 1:47:01.080 --> 1:47:03.479 this and not me because I wasn't. I mean, I 1:47:04.000 --> 1:47:07.599 I did my own archival thing for archiving, like the video. 1:47:08.160 --> 1:47:11.719 But the way that you were able to really crack 1:47:11.800 --> 1:47:14.400 this open and everyone else who worked on it is 1:47:14.479 --> 1:47:18.559 because you had like those lists of connections of people 1:47:18.600 --> 1:47:21.800 who are already kind of active in this like al 1:47:21.960 --> 1:47:24.600 right far right scene within your local community. Like you 1:47:24.680 --> 1:47:28.479 already had documentation of the major players who they interact with, 1:47:28.680 --> 1:47:30.720 right you. You already had pictures of this guy in 1:47:30.880 --> 1:47:34.800 gear with other known people. So the fact that there 1:47:34.880 --> 1:47:39.160 was already previously work archived really made the success of 1:47:39.280 --> 1:47:44.639 this so much more possible. That's what they but People's 1:47:44.680 --> 1:47:47.479 Plaza and Nashville during their protests, they were really big 1:47:47.560 --> 1:47:51.600 on documenting. Um they documented everything with the police and 1:47:52.160 --> 1:47:56.240 um any counter protesters they would. They had professional photographers 1:47:56.320 --> 1:48:00.519 out there making sure we had good, clear quality pictures 1:48:00.800 --> 1:48:04.600 of like everybody on the other side as well, and 1:48:04.680 --> 1:48:09.400 that definitely helped us a lot. Yeah, because especially before 1:48:09.479 --> 1:48:14.200 January six, they there was they did a decent job 1:48:14.360 --> 1:48:18.439 of archiving themselves, well not not archiving, but like filming 1:48:18.479 --> 1:48:21.719 themselves and documenting themselves. And then you know, it takes 1:48:22.040 --> 1:48:24.920 takes other research to then archive that. So not only 1:48:25.040 --> 1:48:28.160 is important just to like look at the research and 1:48:28.360 --> 1:48:30.560 look at like the documentation of the that people do 1:48:30.640 --> 1:48:32.519 of themselves, but then make sure that you have a 1:48:32.600 --> 1:48:36.360 source for that that's not their own uploading of it. Right. So, 1:48:36.560 --> 1:48:39.360 like a great example is like all of the live 1:48:39.400 --> 1:48:41.320 streams from January six, including like this one from the 1:48:41.400 --> 1:48:43.920 hotel room. Pretty soon it was deleted by the person 1:48:43.960 --> 1:48:46.479 who posted it because they realized, oh maybe I shouldn't 1:48:46.520 --> 1:48:49.880 have this living record of my crimes. Um. But at 1:48:49.960 --> 1:48:52.439 that point people already saved the video. They they already 1:48:52.600 --> 1:48:55.360 like I already ran it through a video of saving 1:48:55.439 --> 1:48:59.519 program that I had. UM. So it's it's important not 1:48:59.600 --> 1:49:04.439 only to again archiving having having having previous documentation of 1:49:04.560 --> 1:49:07.360 people and known players, but then as new information is 1:49:07.400 --> 1:49:09.680 coming out, make sure you make separate copies of that 1:49:09.880 --> 1:49:12.479 for your own sake so that you actually have it, 1:49:12.600 --> 1:49:15.000 and then you're not gonna be stuck looking for something 1:49:15.040 --> 1:49:17.800 that's gone. Right. The worst case scenarios to like you 1:49:18.000 --> 1:49:20.519 know that there was an important thing, but you just 1:49:20.600 --> 1:49:22.439 don't have access to it anymore. It's like you you 1:49:22.720 --> 1:49:25.400 remember seeing it, you didn't save it, and now it's gone. 1:49:25.680 --> 1:49:27.680 That's a horrible feeling to do when you're trying to 1:49:27.720 --> 1:49:31.000 get this kind of research done. UM. And like it happens, 1:49:31.080 --> 1:49:33.560 we all, we all make mistakes like this. UM, I 1:49:33.680 --> 1:49:36.720 definitely have it happened to me actually this week. Yeah, 1:49:36.800 --> 1:49:39.000 it happens all the time, and it happens to be. 1:49:39.080 --> 1:49:40.760 It happens to be all the time. I'll look at 1:49:40.800 --> 1:49:42.640 something and be like, I should probably save this. I 1:49:42.720 --> 1:49:45.400 get distracted or I just don't want to because archiving 1:49:45.520 --> 1:49:48.320 is boring and tedious, and then I check again, that's gone. 1:49:48.320 --> 1:49:52.280 I'm like, well that's should I should have archived it. Yeah. 1:49:53.160 --> 1:49:55.799 So on. On top of all of the archiving stuff, 1:49:55.840 --> 1:49:58.920 which in general, anti fascist research is really that's the 1:49:58.960 --> 1:50:03.360 thing that really excels even like um above above journalism 1:50:03.520 --> 1:50:07.080 is like, you know, getting like traditional journalism is like 1:50:07.320 --> 1:50:11.120 getting a good documentation of like key fascist players in 1:50:11.200 --> 1:50:13.840 your area, key people who are kind of pushing far 1:50:13.920 --> 1:50:16.280 right stuff and far right violence. Actually getting like a 1:50:16.479 --> 1:50:19.240 good a good, a good idea of who they are 1:50:19.880 --> 1:50:23.080 and having that knowledge always handy. Um is something that 1:50:23.439 --> 1:50:26.200 this type of research is is really that that is 1:50:26.240 --> 1:50:28.680 really what it excels at, or like what what the 1:50:28.880 --> 1:50:31.000 what those researchers excel at. This is the thing that 1:50:31.120 --> 1:50:33.240 they do very well. I think a lot of us 1:50:33.360 --> 1:50:37.160 probably started doing it just out of curiosity, looking into people, 1:50:37.479 --> 1:50:42.120 and that's that issaraily how I started, Like I've been 1:50:42.240 --> 1:50:45.360 doing it long before. I just didn't know That's what 1:50:45.479 --> 1:50:48.400 it was called because like I'd see somebody make a 1:50:49.280 --> 1:50:52.320 messed up common online, I'm like, who is this person? 1:50:52.479 --> 1:50:54.320 And then you know, trying to find as much as 1:50:54.360 --> 1:50:58.400 I can about them? Yeah, that's that is certainly how 1:50:58.400 --> 1:51:00.680 I got started with this type of thing, because it 1:51:01.160 --> 1:51:03.679 can it can be fun to look for bad people. 1:51:03.880 --> 1:51:06.880 It is, it is. It is kind of pleasurable, UM 1:51:08.120 --> 1:51:12.120 and one of one of the again another big contributing factor. 1:51:12.200 --> 1:51:14.360 And how you got zip tie guy? How how I 1:51:14.439 --> 1:51:16.880 got written? How how a lot of this stuff works? 1:51:17.400 --> 1:51:20.519 Um is uh the beauty of Facebook as a research 1:51:20.600 --> 1:51:25.120 tool because often in order in order in order to 1:51:25.200 --> 1:51:27.679 do the archiving, you need to have stuff to archive, 1:51:28.040 --> 1:51:30.000 and a lot of the stuff that gets posted from 1:51:30.080 --> 1:51:33.840 these things by the people doing them UM is done 1:51:33.840 --> 1:51:36.280 on Facebook, or at least it used to write the 1:51:36.320 --> 1:51:40.040 past five years, really, Facebook has been the main main 1:51:40.280 --> 1:51:43.479 source of this UM. Now it's maybe now people are 1:51:43.520 --> 1:51:46.000 kind of getting wise and maybe some stuff is moving 1:51:46.040 --> 1:51:48.320 to telegram. Facebook is becoming a little little bit less 1:51:48.600 --> 1:51:50.760 important of a platform for this type of research. And 1:51:50.840 --> 1:51:53.360 I know Facebook has changed the way that they um 1:51:53.560 --> 1:51:55.840 that you can use their service, So it does make 1:51:55.920 --> 1:51:58.479 research kind of harder in some ways, but but even 1:51:58.560 --> 1:52:00.880 still it is it is one of the better tools 1:52:01.040 --> 1:52:04.040 to um to dig into certain types of people because 1:52:04.040 --> 1:52:06.040 there is certain types of people who are going to 1:52:06.120 --> 1:52:11.160 be more likely to use Facebook. Um and Yeah, in 1:52:11.320 --> 1:52:16.120 terms of how getting Facebook was the method, it's not 1:52:16.280 --> 1:52:18.599 where the place where you're able to make the link 1:52:18.680 --> 1:52:22.439 between the fascists. You already knew and and eric um 1:52:22.760 --> 1:52:25.880 because of because you are you already you you already 1:52:25.960 --> 1:52:28.200 knew who the players were, and the Facebook had the 1:52:28.400 --> 1:52:32.559 visualized network to actually make those connections. So Facebook itself 1:52:32.640 --> 1:52:35.320 and social media in general is really is really useful. 1:52:35.400 --> 1:52:37.680 And the in terms of how this operate is like 1:52:37.720 --> 1:52:41.440 going through friends lists is really easy, um, but oftentimes 1:52:41.880 --> 1:52:43.960 a lot of people will not maybe have those public 1:52:44.560 --> 1:52:47.320 um and what wich. Then this again, it's not a 1:52:47.439 --> 1:52:49.960 dead road. You can still look through likes, you can 1:52:49.960 --> 1:52:52.960 still look through shares, you can still look through like, 1:52:53.160 --> 1:52:56.639 um if you like people are tagged in photos. Um 1:52:57.360 --> 1:52:59.560 it really it really is a is a great is 1:52:59.600 --> 1:53:03.519 a great system that is good at making you not 1:53:03.720 --> 1:53:06.200 have privacy. That is the thing. It really it really 1:53:06.280 --> 1:53:11.160 excels it. Yeah, and even even if people don't have 1:53:11.720 --> 1:53:16.080 like an active social media presence per se UM, it 1:53:16.320 --> 1:53:19.640 can still be really useful in getting specific names of 1:53:19.760 --> 1:53:23.479 people or or just make or just having a connection 1:53:23.600 --> 1:53:27.040 be known like this. This was mostly how I was 1:53:27.120 --> 1:53:30.679 able to identify the all the anonymous UM riot cops 1:53:30.720 --> 1:53:34.080 in when when the Portland Police Bureau took took away 1:53:34.120 --> 1:53:38.280 their badge numbers and names. UM is that I could 1:53:38.320 --> 1:53:39.960 get like a list of cops and we could start 1:53:40.040 --> 1:53:42.560 figuring out like, okay, this is probably this is this 1:53:42.720 --> 1:53:46.040 is this is pre cops previously on the right team, right, 1:53:46.280 --> 1:53:49.280 you can start doing facial matching UM. And then if 1:53:49.280 --> 1:53:51.200 I want to learn out, if if I want to 1:53:51.400 --> 1:53:53.559 if I want to learn more information about like their 1:53:53.600 --> 1:53:56.679 first name, and more information about them in general, even 1:53:56.720 --> 1:54:00.320 if they don't have a social media profile, often their 1:54:00.400 --> 1:54:04.280 wife might or their mom might. You know, there's a UM. 1:54:05.000 --> 1:54:08.200 And in terms of fun sentences to say, really learning 1:54:08.240 --> 1:54:10.920 how to exploit people's family as a weakness is is 1:54:11.200 --> 1:54:16.240 wonderful UM for this type of stalking stalking violent bad people. UM. 1:54:17.160 --> 1:54:19.640 Because yeah, because a lot of a lot of a 1:54:19.640 --> 1:54:21.200 lot of the riot cops were smart enough to not 1:54:21.720 --> 1:54:24.080 to at least to either not have their presence at 1:54:24.080 --> 1:54:26.800 all on the internet, um or to have it very 1:54:26.880 --> 1:54:28.479 locked down in terms of, you know, no one can 1:54:28.520 --> 1:54:30.160 see their posts, no one can see their friends, no 1:54:30.200 --> 1:54:33.560 one can see anything. But still their wife will occasionally 1:54:33.600 --> 1:54:36.880 tag them in photos or uh maybe not even photos 1:54:36.920 --> 1:54:38.800 of them, but like they'll they'll just take them in 1:54:38.840 --> 1:54:41.120 a photo of like their kid or something. And then 1:54:41.200 --> 1:54:43.000 this just creates more ways to make connections so that 1:54:43.120 --> 1:54:46.240 you can, you know, learn more about these specific people. Um, 1:54:46.840 --> 1:54:51.000 because sometimes that's fun and interesting. Yeah, I've noticed some 1:54:51.120 --> 1:54:54.680 people with socks that I've found their identity. It's by 1:54:55.680 --> 1:54:58.920 going through the likes and seeing, um, you know, the 1:54:59.040 --> 1:55:01.440 same woman. It is always the first to put a 1:55:01.520 --> 1:55:04.960 heart react there, and you can go to their pages. 1:55:05.200 --> 1:55:07.440 Sometimes it's a little if you get through their pictures 1:55:07.960 --> 1:55:10.680 and you see a picture of the guy there with 1:55:10.960 --> 1:55:14.440 they'll have like somebody in the comments, oh Mark looks 1:55:14.600 --> 1:55:19.000 really good. There something you know, naming the husband, and 1:55:19.080 --> 1:55:20.760 from there you can get the last thing. You know, 1:55:21.040 --> 1:55:24.000 you've know the wife's last name, you have a good 1:55:24.120 --> 1:55:28.480 chance of that being their last name. Yeah. Yeah, So 1:55:29.080 --> 1:55:34.120 family families really is really great for finding people because 1:55:34.120 --> 1:55:36.440 because like all of the other recent research is is 1:55:36.520 --> 1:55:39.000 learning how to make these open source connections, right, A 1:55:39.080 --> 1:55:42.320 lot a lot of it is connections and networking, and 1:55:42.560 --> 1:55:47.960 people usually always have an innate connection and networking and 1:55:48.040 --> 1:55:50.600 that that that is their family. UM. And often this 1:55:50.760 --> 1:55:53.160 like extends out in terms of you know, political organizing, 1:55:53.200 --> 1:55:55.840 whether you're part of you know, militias or just kind 1:55:55.840 --> 1:55:59.360 of smaller groups. Yeah, that is another network. UM. Friends 1:55:59.520 --> 1:56:01.880 is another at work. But you know, for people who 1:56:01.920 --> 1:56:04.880 are kind of are are more locked down, it is 1:56:04.920 --> 1:56:07.360 possible to find the information about people, um, you know, 1:56:08.520 --> 1:56:10.000 especially if if they had, like if they have like 1:56:10.080 --> 1:56:12.360 a not very common last name, you know, that can 1:56:12.440 --> 1:56:15.080 make finding information about them much easier if you're using 1:56:15.120 --> 1:56:17.440 tools like Facebook. Um. And then it's you know, just 1:56:17.520 --> 1:56:19.240 a matter of doing all the other you know, open 1:56:19.280 --> 1:56:22.240 source research of you know, comparing clothing, um, you know, 1:56:22.320 --> 1:56:24.440 and comparing to what other kind of information you already 1:56:24.480 --> 1:56:28.640 know about the person, email addresses, phone numbers if you can, 1:56:28.680 --> 1:56:31.080 you know, get that, get that kind of stuff as well. 1:56:31.680 --> 1:56:33.160 But I think that's all he had on zip tie 1:56:33.200 --> 1:56:37.160 guy out mostly m Yeah, he was a really easy one. 1:56:37.240 --> 1:56:40.400 There's not a whole lot to really dive into their Yeah, 1:56:40.480 --> 1:56:45.800 no for for someone for someone who was one of 1:56:45.880 --> 1:56:49.560 the few people masked up wasn't was not was not 1:56:49.720 --> 1:56:54.160 that hard to find. I mean, yeah, of course, the 1:56:54.240 --> 1:56:56.280 fact that he was found by local people in his 1:56:56.440 --> 1:57:00.000 area not surprising. Um that's another thing I did. Fashion 1:57:00.080 --> 1:57:02.520 research is really good at, is that type of local research, 1:57:03.040 --> 1:57:05.120 because you know, they they have they have all those 1:57:05.160 --> 1:57:09.440 local connections, they have those local um documentation of like 1:57:09.600 --> 1:57:12.480 a political events that have happened in their area. So 1:57:13.120 --> 1:57:15.880 again it's the the importance of of having stuff archives 1:57:15.880 --> 1:57:18.760 and having stuff like sorted and having stuff organized well 1:57:18.800 --> 1:57:21.520 so you can access your archive of information is really important. 1:57:21.720 --> 1:57:24.280 It's it's it sucks that it's it's the part of 1:57:24.360 --> 1:57:29.600 OS and I hate the most. Everyone. Everyone hates. Everyone hates. 1:57:29.640 --> 1:57:32.160 I'm I'm sure there's some sick of out there who 1:57:32.240 --> 1:57:35.640 likes it, but everyone else, everyone else hates all of 1:57:35.720 --> 1:57:39.360 the We hate all this organizing and sorting. And I 1:57:39.520 --> 1:57:43.200 find archiving to be tedious. Archiving videos, live streams, it's tedious, 1:57:43.240 --> 1:57:48.640 it's difficult. Um, it's done, it's time consuming, it's repetitive, 1:57:48.800 --> 1:57:51.880 it's not generally not a good time, but it is 1:57:52.280 --> 1:57:55.480 so useful and in the long run of trying to 1:57:55.680 --> 1:57:58.400 get these like a list of of like established players 1:57:58.440 --> 1:58:01.160 in your area. This is how you start seeing patterns, right. 1:58:02.120 --> 1:58:04.160 You need to have this information already laid out so 1:58:04.280 --> 1:58:07.120 you can actually watch the patterns unfold. Otherwise it's just 1:58:07.160 --> 1:58:09.800 a whole bunch of chaotic information that means nothing. So 1:58:11.040 --> 1:58:13.200 it's it's super important, as as much of a bummer 1:58:13.280 --> 1:58:19.040 as it may be. Yeah, let's see, UM, is there 1:58:19.040 --> 1:58:20.880 anything you've been working on since then that you like 1:58:20.960 --> 1:58:23.120 that you would like to talk about, or any upcoming 1:58:23.360 --> 1:58:28.480 research projects? Right now, I'm really focused on our local 1:58:28.880 --> 1:58:33.360 UM school board and you know, like many towns across 1:58:33.440 --> 1:58:36.800 the country, we have fascists trying to take it over 1:58:37.080 --> 1:58:40.760 and going to the meetings, and so I've been watching 1:58:41.160 --> 1:58:44.920 that group very closely for the last several months, since 1:58:45.240 --> 1:58:50.480 probably about October. Our school year, we started out without 1:58:50.520 --> 1:58:57.080 a mask mandate UM and a couple of parrots UM 1:58:57.840 --> 1:59:03.520 who's children like they're there, I mean a compromise like 1:59:03.640 --> 1:59:07.120 their their kids need the everybody else to wear a mask. 1:59:07.200 --> 1:59:10.920 So their parents sued the school board and our governor 1:59:11.240 --> 1:59:15.320 UM to have a mass band aid and the judge 1:59:15.440 --> 1:59:19.880 issued an injunction and like the next Monday, all the 1:59:19.960 --> 1:59:23.680 schools had to wear a mask and the anti mask 1:59:23.720 --> 1:59:27.360 crowd is like losing their ship over it. Still, um, 1:59:27.560 --> 1:59:30.520 trying to figure out how to fire the judge. Um, 1:59:31.760 --> 1:59:36.280 it's like, yeah, we have a member of Patriot Church 1:59:37.320 --> 1:59:39.640 who's involved in it, and you know they're the ones 1:59:39.720 --> 1:59:42.440 with the Church of pland Parenthood. It's Ken Peter too. 1:59:42.960 --> 1:59:47.920 I think he's from Washington, yes, yeah, and he's he's 1:59:47.960 --> 1:59:50.520 moved down here. Um. I think he still goes up 1:59:50.560 --> 1:59:54.520 there to the to the church stuff, but most of 1:59:54.600 --> 1:59:58.080 his time is spent down here in Tennessee and causing 1:59:58.160 --> 2:00:00.120 just as much trouble as he does up there and 2:00:00.800 --> 2:00:04.960 his followers. So I'm curious to see how how does 2:00:05.160 --> 2:00:08.680 a research project like this school board thing differ from 2:00:08.800 --> 2:00:11.960 like the research surrounding you know, trying to identify someone 2:00:12.000 --> 2:00:19.800 at January six. Um, For one, this is local. It's 2:00:20.080 --> 2:00:22.080 you know, I'm going to the school board meetings. UM. 2:00:23.040 --> 2:00:25.520 I know it's easier to know where to look for 2:00:25.600 --> 2:00:29.320 this because like I'm watching it as it happening where you, like, 2:00:29.680 --> 2:00:32.360 you know, January six. Most of those people you have 2:00:32.520 --> 2:00:36.200 no clue where to even start from. UM. So this 2:00:37.000 --> 2:00:42.360 more now, it's it's monitoring and documenting as we've you know, 2:00:42.480 --> 2:00:46.000 figure out who these people are, like linking Telegram names 2:00:46.200 --> 2:00:50.280 with Facebook names and all of that. So I guess 2:00:50.440 --> 2:00:54.880 now it's more record keeping and getting that documentation done 2:00:54.920 --> 2:00:59.160 early so when one of them goes too far, we 2:00:59.360 --> 2:01:02.800 have and we haven't ready. I mean, that's that's that's 2:01:02.840 --> 2:01:05.880 the sad part where it's like you're watching inevitable inevitability 2:01:05.880 --> 2:01:07.800 almost is it con mean, but that's yeah, that's also 2:01:07.840 --> 2:01:10.080 how like January six works. Right, we were able to 2:01:10.120 --> 2:01:13.320 identify these people because there was a lot of documentation 2:01:13.480 --> 2:01:16.560 of a lot of major players already. Right, So a 2:01:16.640 --> 2:01:18.960 lot of the work in between these big protests and 2:01:19.000 --> 2:01:23.000 events is is the is this is the slow, tedious 2:01:23.800 --> 2:01:25.600 documentation because we have to do it now so that 2:01:25.680 --> 2:01:28.360 it's a useful later. Let's you know, a big part 2:01:28.400 --> 2:01:33.520 of research is like, yeah, trying to spot potential you know, 2:01:33.720 --> 2:01:37.440 issues and archiving it and then if the issue ever 2:01:37.520 --> 2:01:40.200 becomes a bigger issue, you already have information on it, right, 2:01:40.440 --> 2:01:43.760 whether that be you know, watching someone online who you 2:01:43.880 --> 2:01:46.760 might think is who, like watching someone who's like Nazi 2:01:46.840 --> 2:01:49.360 who you might be worried that like they're posting and 2:01:49.520 --> 2:01:51.920 plans about how to kill people you're like, Okay, so 2:01:52.120 --> 2:01:55.640 probably look into this dude, because he's doing this in 2:01:55.760 --> 2:01:58.680 case he does something in the future. Um it is 2:01:59.080 --> 2:02:02.800 that is the kind of uh it sucks because yeah, 2:02:02.880 --> 2:02:05.480 you are watching this thing where you feel kind of helpless, 2:02:05.760 --> 2:02:10.360 but you know that documenting it is worthwhile. Um they Yeah, 2:02:10.400 --> 2:02:12.320 it's the same thing where like you don't want to 2:02:12.400 --> 2:02:15.480 be vindicated, but if it does happen, it's better to 2:02:15.560 --> 2:02:20.240 be prepared because I don't think people realize like how 2:02:20.320 --> 2:02:23.040 much anti fascist research, how much of this type of 2:02:23.160 --> 2:02:27.000 like ohs and stuff like my journalism, Like most of 2:02:27.120 --> 2:02:29.240 the work that you put into it is never seen. 2:02:29.960 --> 2:02:32.720 Even if you do complete investigations. Sometimes by the end 2:02:32.760 --> 2:02:36.560 you're like it's getting getting them, getting them out in 2:02:36.680 --> 2:02:38.880 enough time for them to be useful. Sometimes it isn't 2:02:38.880 --> 2:02:41.280 even worth it. Um. So you know a lot of 2:02:41.360 --> 2:02:43.720 it is, you know, writing stuff and doing research that 2:02:43.800 --> 2:02:46.240 never actually sees the light of day for a long 2:02:46.360 --> 2:02:50.440 long time. Right with Eric Mantchell, we had like probably 2:02:50.560 --> 2:02:53.080 twenty people we had on our list too, and he 2:02:53.280 --> 2:02:56.200 wasn't even one of them. Yeah, so you do all 2:02:56.280 --> 2:03:00.080 this and like, on one hand, it almost felt in 2:03:00.160 --> 2:03:02.680 a moment like all of that we did was really 2:03:02.720 --> 2:03:05.880 for nothing, but now it did lead to Yeah, it 2:03:06.440 --> 2:03:09.240 did lead and even when you do find the correct answer, 2:03:09.360 --> 2:03:14.320 sometimes sometimes could via circumstances. You know, it's not something 2:03:14.360 --> 2:03:17.000 you need to post about immediately. Sometimes it's worth just 2:03:17.120 --> 2:03:20.440 you know, hanging onto um and not being super super 2:03:20.440 --> 2:03:23.600 public about every horrible thing you find. It's not like 2:03:24.400 --> 2:03:26.400 you don't need to post every time you find a 2:03:26.440 --> 2:03:29.280 horrible thing on Telegram. You don't. You don't need to 2:03:29.280 --> 2:03:31.920 tell Twitter that. It's like it's it's about collecting these 2:03:32.000 --> 2:03:38.000 things and keeping them there for future use. Um. Well, 2:03:38.680 --> 2:03:40.320 thank you so much for coming on to talk with 2:03:40.400 --> 2:03:46.920 me again, um, after after already already discussing, uh, mostly 2:03:47.680 --> 2:03:52.120 the same things. Where can people follow your stuff online? 2:03:52.680 --> 2:03:58.040 We're on Twitter at um at a possum press really easy. Yeah, 2:03:59.120 --> 2:04:02.960 we're on Facebook. We don't actually do much on Facebook though. Um. Yeah, 2:04:03.040 --> 2:04:06.840 as we've discussed now, you probably probably shouldn't. I mean, 2:04:06.920 --> 2:04:09.560 like in in a lot of ways, a lot of 2:04:09.640 --> 2:04:11.839 like fascist organizing that used to be done in primarily 2:04:11.920 --> 2:04:14.560 like Facebook groups or just even just like through like 2:04:14.960 --> 2:04:18.200 like incidental organizing through just through like posting and cross posting. 2:04:18.560 --> 2:04:20.680 A lot of that has been moved over to Telegram. 2:04:20.760 --> 2:04:23.320 At this point, Telegram is kind of the new main nexus, 2:04:23.960 --> 2:04:27.040 whereas Facebook and like the days of the early alt right, 2:04:27.520 --> 2:04:30.320 Facebook was a pretty big nexus for like the more 2:04:30.800 --> 2:04:34.200 normis right. You know, it's there, there is actually fascist 2:04:34.280 --> 2:04:37.240 forms that we're doing organizing, but as a place for again, 2:04:37.280 --> 2:04:39.880 like a lot of people in January six, who didn't 2:04:39.960 --> 2:04:42.280 really know what they were doing was wrong. They were 2:04:42.360 --> 2:04:44.800 mostly you know, make American great again people or quing 2:04:44.840 --> 2:04:48.400 on people. A good portion of like most of them 2:04:48.480 --> 2:04:53.120 were not you know, swastika waving Nazis. Um. They may 2:04:53.240 --> 2:04:56.680 they may agree with fascist ideas, but they don't they 2:04:56.720 --> 2:05:00.160 don't self describe as Nazis. So like um. But we're 2:05:00.160 --> 2:05:02.640 even seeing after after January six, with you know, um 2:05:02.760 --> 2:05:05.960 Facebook like cracking down on these groups, other platforms like 2:05:06.040 --> 2:05:09.280 Parla going offline, a lot of these normies themselves or 2:05:09.320 --> 2:05:13.840 even migrating onto Telegram. Um. So you know, Facebook used 2:05:13.880 --> 2:05:16.080 to be a really great research tool, and I'm using 2:05:16.120 --> 2:05:19.000 it less and left less and less often now unfortunately, 2:05:19.160 --> 2:05:21.240 because I mean it really didn't have a lot of 2:05:21.280 --> 2:05:24.320 strong suits. Telegram does have his own strong suits, but 2:05:24.520 --> 2:05:28.080 you know, it's it's still it's still different. I think 2:05:28.120 --> 2:05:31.000 the normy is moved into telegram is troubling though, because 2:05:32.120 --> 2:05:37.640 having a way easier time that is there. That is 2:05:37.720 --> 2:05:40.320 the obvious thing is. Yeah, now that those groups are 2:05:40.360 --> 2:05:43.320 in closer proximity, it's easier for one to seep into 2:05:43.400 --> 2:05:48.280 the other, whereas before there was more of that distinction. Um. Yes, 2:05:48.400 --> 2:05:50.280 that is a worrying thing that I believe we've talked 2:05:50.320 --> 2:05:53.560 about before and we'll talk about again um in the future. 2:05:54.080 --> 2:05:57.640 In terms of having this like fascist milieu or cultic milieu, 2:05:58.280 --> 2:06:01.120 UM of a place where the the amount of the 2:06:01.200 --> 2:06:05.360 amount of overlap between you know, your uncle who's a 2:06:05.440 --> 2:06:08.960 regular Conservative and you know a member of Adam Offen 2:06:09.160 --> 2:06:11.280 or you know someone who wishes they remember of Adam 2:06:11.320 --> 2:06:15.120 often um is very small. It's every these they are 2:06:15.320 --> 2:06:20.360 they are very close together. Yeah. Well, thank you for 2:06:20.480 --> 2:06:23.680 talking about all of these things on our on our 2:06:23.800 --> 2:06:28.640 second osand case study episode. Like guess big big Big 2:06:28.680 --> 2:06:32.680 takeaways is uh. Archiving is great, archive live streams, archived 2:06:32.720 --> 2:06:35.840 things because it's better to have them um and not 2:06:36.080 --> 2:06:38.960 use them than not have them and need them. UM. 2:06:39.520 --> 2:06:42.520 And then you know, archiving and documenting local fascists is 2:06:42.560 --> 2:06:45.000 really great even for things beyond your locality, like in 2:06:45.120 --> 2:06:48.920 January six. Um, so those are those are my main 2:06:49.000 --> 2:06:51.840 takeaways from this and uh, you know, also everyone a 2:06:51.880 --> 2:06:54.560 black life coffee. They all they all look like everyone 2:06:54.600 --> 2:06:58.600 at day six, all of them do they do all right? 2:06:59.280 --> 2:07:01.200 That doesn't for us? Thank you so much. I can 2:07:01.240 --> 2:07:17.680 follow the metoposus and press um. Good by everybody. Welcome 2:07:17.720 --> 2:07:21.160 back to it could happen here the only podcast you 2:07:21.280 --> 2:07:24.320 are legally allowed to listen to right now. Um, I'm 2:07:24.440 --> 2:07:27.960 Robert Evans. We talk about things falling apart, putting them 2:07:28.040 --> 2:07:32.160 back together, all that good stuff with me as just 2:07:32.320 --> 2:07:36.520 like sevent of the time. Is my co host Garrison Davis. Garrison, 2:07:37.320 --> 2:07:40.400 how are you doing today? I'm doing great. It is 2:07:40.400 --> 2:07:43.160 early for you. Yeah, they have to, they have to 2:07:43.200 --> 2:07:45.560 drag me out of bed, but I I made it 2:07:45.680 --> 2:07:50.040 just and I'm excited to talk about as three. Okay, 2:07:50.640 --> 2:07:55.520 I have my second coffee already. Our topic is gun culture, 2:07:55.880 --> 2:07:58.520 uh and to discuss gun culture with me and a 2:07:58.640 --> 2:08:01.160 number of aspects of it, including how to maybe make 2:08:01.200 --> 2:08:05.480 a better one. Uh. Is Carl Casarda from Ranged TV. Carl, 2:08:05.640 --> 2:08:09.080 welcome to the program. Hey, thanks for having me. I'm 2:08:09.200 --> 2:08:11.560 really stoked to be here, and it's a topic, as 2:08:11.600 --> 2:08:13.920 you can imagine with my work on Enrange TV, is 2:08:14.000 --> 2:08:16.520 a near and dear to my heart because it's a 2:08:16.640 --> 2:08:18.400 challenging one. We've got a lot of great things in 2:08:18.480 --> 2:08:21.120 this community and a lot of challenges too. Yeah. Gun 2:08:21.280 --> 2:08:26.360 YouTube has gotten some really interesting places in the last um. Really, 2:08:26.400 --> 2:08:28.080 it feels like most of the growth happened the last 2:08:28.120 --> 2:08:31.600 five six years, Like there's been a real significant increase 2:08:31.800 --> 2:08:34.920 in Yeah. I feel like there's been like a wave. 2:08:35.000 --> 2:08:37.600 I feel like there's generations of gun two. There's like 2:08:37.720 --> 2:08:41.320 jen one, Gen two, Gen three in theres Russian back 2:08:41.360 --> 2:08:43.800 in the day and stuff totally Yeah, and so there's 2:08:43.800 --> 2:08:46.600 a whole thing there. There's there's generations of what was 2:08:46.680 --> 2:08:49.720 addressed in the conversation and the cultural significance as well 2:08:49.800 --> 2:08:52.120 as the geary impact. I think we've got different kind 2:08:52.200 --> 2:08:56.400 of generations of the Yeah, and I think this stuff Obviously, 2:08:56.480 --> 2:08:59.000 when when aspects of gun YouTube go viral, it tends 2:08:59.040 --> 2:09:03.080 to be stuff that's like particularly problematic, But in my experience, 2:09:03.120 --> 2:09:05.600 most of it is just dudes shooting stuff to see 2:09:05.640 --> 2:09:08.160 what happens, or you know, trying out different guns and 2:09:08.240 --> 2:09:10.880 stuff like it is mostly if you're someone who you 2:09:10.960 --> 2:09:14.280 know believes in the right to bear arms, it's mostly 2:09:14.800 --> 2:09:18.080 pretty much just like people drying out guns, uh and 2:09:18.200 --> 2:09:21.440 stuff with guns. Yeah, yeah, when things go viral, it's 2:09:21.560 --> 2:09:23.960 like my my experience with that, there's a number of reasons, right, 2:09:24.040 --> 2:09:27.200 One is that it's particularly gross that someone does something 2:09:27.360 --> 2:09:29.480 or says something fucked up. Somebody's out there a dressed 2:09:29.520 --> 2:09:32.080 as a rotation a right, stuff like that. That kind 2:09:32.280 --> 2:09:34.520 that tends to push the buttons. But yeah, most of 2:09:34.560 --> 2:09:37.080 the time, the stuff that gets the largest volume of 2:09:37.240 --> 2:09:41.080 viewership are quite honestly more banal. It's things like a 2:09:42.200 --> 2:09:46.240 fifty caliber exploding or shooting have gallon, you know, gallon, 2:09:46.360 --> 2:09:49.080 drum of gas. That kind of stuff. Is that that 2:09:49.160 --> 2:09:51.520 stuff appeals to people that aren't just gun people, so 2:09:51.560 --> 2:09:53.320 they're like, oh, I want to see shoots fload, so 2:09:53.400 --> 2:09:55.560 let me click on it. Well, one of my favorite 2:09:55.560 --> 2:09:58.320 things is to look at videos of people destroying safe 2:09:58.400 --> 2:10:02.120 life fests. What my favorite ways to watch gut YouTube? 2:10:02.360 --> 2:10:04.720 But I guess this is probably what we'll probably talking 2:10:04.760 --> 2:10:06.960 about this as the episode goes on. But once you 2:10:07.000 --> 2:10:09.240 watch enough of those from like one channel, you'll you'll 2:10:09.280 --> 2:10:11.600 get to a video when they fantasize about like shooting 2:10:11.600 --> 2:10:15.080 antifat or something, and you're like, okay, well yeah, that yeah, 2:10:15.280 --> 2:10:18.600 that's that's just the way it goes sometimes. And it is, 2:10:18.760 --> 2:10:21.960 you know, the thing that my first I guess the 2:10:22.040 --> 2:10:24.400 first time I became aware of like online gun culture, 2:10:24.800 --> 2:10:26.600 UM was a site that's still really near and dear 2:10:26.600 --> 2:10:28.040 to my heart. I'm sure you're familiar with it, Carl 2:10:28.120 --> 2:10:30.960 the Box of Truth. And it was like, and I 2:10:31.040 --> 2:10:33.040 think this like fifteen years ago or something like that 2:10:33.200 --> 2:10:34.680 is when I started reading their stuff, and it's it's 2:10:34.720 --> 2:10:37.680 just like some kind of bubba e dudes in Texas 2:10:37.760 --> 2:10:39.960 who will take different who will try out like, hey, 2:10:40.040 --> 2:10:42.760 there's a myth that UM this specific round in Korea 2:10:42.840 --> 2:10:45.560 got stopped by people who's were wearing multiple layers of 2:10:45.640 --> 2:10:49.680 like clothing in the cold. Can winter clothing stop this bullet? 2:10:49.720 --> 2:10:51.520 And they would they would you know, mock up the 2:10:51.560 --> 2:10:53.160 clothing on like a target and they would shoot it. 2:10:53.600 --> 2:10:55.440 Or like how many books does it take? Like if 2:10:55.480 --> 2:10:57.200 you have a full backpack, how many books would it 2:10:57.240 --> 2:10:59.440 take to stop a round of nine millimeter? If I like, 2:10:59.560 --> 2:11:03.080 it's it's all very much like practical. Hey, people you know, 2:11:03.240 --> 2:11:05.480 say this works this way or this works that way. Well, 2:11:05.560 --> 2:11:07.360 let's go out and shoot some stuff and test how 2:11:07.400 --> 2:11:10.960 it works. And um, I think was like it is, 2:11:11.040 --> 2:11:12.360 as you said, the kind of thing I think, even 2:11:12.360 --> 2:11:14.320 if you don't own guns you might find interesting just 2:11:14.440 --> 2:11:16.280 because like a lot of it is dealing with here's 2:11:16.320 --> 2:11:20.640 things you've seen in Hollywood what actually happens? Um. So 2:11:20.720 --> 2:11:24.560 I I do think like fundamentally there's always going to 2:11:24.640 --> 2:11:27.360 be a place for that kind of content because it's 2:11:27.480 --> 2:11:29.640 it's not just like stuff that people who like guns 2:11:29.640 --> 2:11:31.440 are interested in. It's just stuff that has kind of 2:11:31.520 --> 2:11:34.520 objective value, you know, you're trying to expand what people's 2:11:34.600 --> 2:11:37.520 understanding of things. Yeah, I call that ge whiz content. 2:11:37.640 --> 2:11:40.480 It's like, G whiz, what happens if right? And so on? 2:11:40.600 --> 2:11:42.880 In range. The closest equivalent to that, which are the 2:11:43.000 --> 2:11:46.280 videos that the most views are are somewhat now infamous 2:11:46.360 --> 2:11:49.120 mud tests. Um. And it started off six years ago 2:11:49.240 --> 2:11:51.240 and it was literally it was, G whiz, let's go 2:11:51.280 --> 2:11:54.200 do this. And of course there's this long standing lore 2:11:54.640 --> 2:11:57.280 everywhere outside of the gun community and in it about 2:11:57.320 --> 2:12:00.520 the A k M being this undestructed, indestructible unicorn. You're 2:12:00.560 --> 2:12:02.560 right into combat that no matter what happens to it, 2:12:02.640 --> 2:12:04.800 it fires, and they are A fifteen being this fragile 2:12:04.840 --> 2:12:07.040 piece of ship. And in our mud test, of which 2:12:07.040 --> 2:12:09.880 we've now done multiple of it, well initially it was 2:12:09.960 --> 2:12:12.720 just g whiz. Over time and aggregate, it turned out 2:12:12.720 --> 2:12:14.960 to actually have really interesting data points and that the 2:12:15.040 --> 2:12:17.040 A K doesn't do well in mud, and they are 2:12:17.160 --> 2:12:20.480 excels in mud, which is completely against the lore about Vietnam, 2:12:20.520 --> 2:12:22.640 which is a different problem. But that kind of thing 2:12:22.760 --> 2:12:25.320 extends beyond the gun community because people are like guns 2:12:25.360 --> 2:12:28.000 and mud. What happened is g wiz. It's MythBusters kind 2:12:28.000 --> 2:12:30.280 of stuff, and I think, but it's interesting how you 2:12:30.360 --> 2:12:33.360 can learn from it. Yeah, and I think one of 2:12:33.440 --> 2:12:36.960 the problems that is, uh we could say like has 2:12:37.520 --> 2:12:39.720 is an issue on on gun and YouTube. One of 2:12:39.760 --> 2:12:42.800 the things that has become an issue, and this isn't 2:12:42.840 --> 2:12:44.880 just within the gun culture, it's everywhere. Is that like 2:12:45.000 --> 2:12:46.640 if you're into that stuff and if you're if you're 2:12:46.680 --> 2:12:48.560 coming into it, like I want to see people do 2:12:48.680 --> 2:12:50.120 this g wiz stuff or I just want to see 2:12:50.160 --> 2:12:52.480 reviews of different guns because I might be buying one. 2:12:53.120 --> 2:12:55.640 Um Google's algorithm is going to feed you a lot 2:12:55.720 --> 2:12:57.360 of stuff, and some of that stuff is going to 2:12:57.440 --> 2:13:00.320 be people who, yeah, are preparing to like shoot folks 2:13:00.400 --> 2:13:03.080 at protests, and our filming videos about that and stuff, 2:13:03.120 --> 2:13:07.640 and that it has this, um it has this radicalizing 2:13:07.680 --> 2:13:09.400 effect on a lot of people. And it also has 2:13:09.440 --> 2:13:12.320 this kind of can have this kind of radicalizing effect 2:13:12.440 --> 2:13:15.520 on content where you know, most political stuff you see 2:13:15.560 --> 2:13:17.680 isn't kind of that over it, but it does if 2:13:17.760 --> 2:13:20.960 somebody has a video where they're being more explicitly political 2:13:21.040 --> 2:13:23.400 outside of you know, you know, arguing in favor of 2:13:23.480 --> 2:13:25.800 gun rights, but if they're getting kind of political and 2:13:25.840 --> 2:13:28.560 a broader sense, and that does really well the way 2:13:28.600 --> 2:13:30.600 that content works as other people might be like, oh, well, 2:13:30.640 --> 2:13:32.920 folks want me to do a political video, folks want 2:13:32.920 --> 2:13:35.640 me to talk about I don't know, Nancy Pelosi or whatever, 2:13:35.960 --> 2:13:39.000 um And that that's you know, not just a problem 2:13:39.080 --> 2:13:42.440 with gun culture or gun YouTube, but it has increasingly 2:13:42.960 --> 2:13:44.960 become a thing and in the n r A kind 2:13:45.000 --> 2:13:49.040 of very famously there's a good podcast on the how 2:13:49.160 --> 2:13:52.320 that organization has kind of gone from where it started 2:13:52.320 --> 2:13:54.080 to where it is that talks about like n r 2:13:54.120 --> 2:13:57.080 A TV. But they their YouTube channel had some pretty 2:13:57.400 --> 2:13:59.840 outrageous ship for a while, and I think it left 2:14:00.040 --> 2:14:03.120 impact even though it failed in this Eventually, well, the 2:14:03.280 --> 2:14:04.880 NRA is until we can get into that later. The 2:14:05.000 --> 2:14:07.160 Terney has changed so much since its origins to what 2:14:07.240 --> 2:14:09.160 it is now. It's not even the people that found 2:14:09.200 --> 2:14:11.400 it wouldn't recognize it, I don't think at all. But 2:14:12.400 --> 2:14:14.760 you're touching on a topic there that's also near and dear, 2:14:14.760 --> 2:14:16.240 and I'm not trying to promote range here, that's just 2:14:16.280 --> 2:14:19.320 we're having a conversation. But years ago I decided to 2:14:19.440 --> 2:14:22.040 proactively demonetize. I turned up my AdSense and I take 2:14:22.080 --> 2:14:25.360 no money from any views, so it's not like advertising 2:14:25.400 --> 2:14:27.560 doesn't drive what I do. And I feel like the 2:14:27.640 --> 2:14:29.680 reason I did that was partially just fuck you YouTube. 2:14:29.720 --> 2:14:32.360 It was the hacker manifesto of you come watch my content, 2:14:32.440 --> 2:14:35.160 I cost you money versus making money, which is kind 2:14:35.160 --> 2:14:38.320 of a statement on my part. But additionally, I do 2:14:38.640 --> 2:14:41.560 feel like, whether it's firearms or any other content that 2:14:41.760 --> 2:14:45.400 is completely advertiser supported, there is a dangerous thing there 2:14:45.480 --> 2:14:48.120 in that you have to pursue the clicks like a 2:14:48.320 --> 2:14:50.720 heroin addict, and the clicks make you the money, and 2:14:50.800 --> 2:14:53.400 therefore you're gonna make the stuff that's gonna make the clicks, 2:14:53.760 --> 2:14:56.000 because that's how you make your income, and even if 2:14:56.040 --> 2:14:59.720 you don't want it to do, it can affect you. Yeah, 2:15:00.440 --> 2:15:04.200 And I'm curious, like, how do you kind of how 2:15:04.240 --> 2:15:08.400 do you, um, how do you how do you approach 2:15:08.960 --> 2:15:12.600 sort of dealing in this space where it is so 2:15:12.720 --> 2:15:15.600 easy for things to become politicized? Like do you is 2:15:15.680 --> 2:15:17.080 that is that a kind of thing that you have 2:15:17.200 --> 2:15:20.880 to be consciously sort of picking your battles. I guess 2:15:21.320 --> 2:15:24.080 I'm just kind of interested in how you because you 2:15:24.160 --> 2:15:26.520 definitely have been more open about having kind of more 2:15:27.160 --> 2:15:29.560 on the left libertarian side of things politics than a 2:15:29.600 --> 2:15:31.920 lot of people talk about in that space. How do 2:15:32.000 --> 2:15:35.640 you decide kind of what is worth inserting and what 2:15:35.840 --> 2:15:37.680 is worth kind of just you know, no one needs 2:15:37.760 --> 2:15:41.200 to hear that within this context. Oh yeah, I don't 2:15:41.200 --> 2:15:43.080 think that that's an easy thing to answer, right, It's hard, 2:15:43.160 --> 2:15:47.960 Like there's a lot of landlines. But when um introspectively, 2:15:48.080 --> 2:15:50.480 for me, the answer for me at least was I'm 2:15:50.520 --> 2:15:53.840 just going to come to this content as my honest self, Like, 2:15:54.200 --> 2:15:56.080 if I'm just going to produce what I want to produce, 2:15:56.120 --> 2:15:59.000 it's and since I don't have to worry about advertising dollars. 2:15:59.080 --> 2:16:00.720 I'm just gonna make this it I want to make. 2:16:01.240 --> 2:16:05.520 And as a result, I guess it's sometimes considered an 2:16:05.520 --> 2:16:07.680 alternative voice, but I don't think it really is. I 2:16:07.760 --> 2:16:10.720 think that the loud loud mouths have made it sound 2:16:10.800 --> 2:16:12.800 like there's only one voice in this community, but there isn't. 2:16:13.200 --> 2:16:16.400 And so by just being legitimate and honest and being me, 2:16:17.120 --> 2:16:19.360 there has turned out to be a lot of ground 2:16:19.440 --> 2:16:21.760 swell if you want to use grassroots type people out 2:16:21.840 --> 2:16:24.960 there that want to hear something that's not just evangelical 2:16:25.000 --> 2:16:29.280 American Taliban so. But but in terms of what where 2:16:29.360 --> 2:16:31.360 to where, what where to put your foot on? What 2:16:31.560 --> 2:16:34.400 land mine? I guess I did For me. My decision 2:16:34.440 --> 2:16:36.800 has been to do topics that have been intentionally ignored 2:16:36.879 --> 2:16:38.680 that shouldn't have been. Like I've done a bunch of 2:16:38.760 --> 2:16:42.080 videos about the confluence of civil rights and firearms ownership, 2:16:42.360 --> 2:16:44.440 which there's a lot of it, and it's it's really 2:16:44.520 --> 2:16:48.360 amazing how much there is and no one talks about it. Yeah, 2:16:48.480 --> 2:16:50.040 I mean we, yeah, we we've chatted about that a 2:16:50.040 --> 2:16:51.960 little bit in some of our episodes. It's like nineteen 2:16:52.040 --> 2:16:54.400 nineteen when there were all those like race riots around 2:16:54.400 --> 2:16:55.800 the country, or even if you're looking at like the 2:16:55.959 --> 2:16:59.480 post construction period, there's a history both of like gun 2:16:59.560 --> 2:17:02.600 control being used for racist purposes, but also just of 2:17:02.720 --> 2:17:06.240 communities arming themselves, Black communities arming themselves. That is is 2:17:06.280 --> 2:17:09.720 woefully undertold, although it is people are starting to deal 2:17:09.760 --> 2:17:13.320 with it more thankfully. UM. I'm kind of interested in 2:17:13.400 --> 2:17:16.400 talking to you about sort of the culture jamming aspect 2:17:16.640 --> 2:17:19.480 of we have this huge gun culture, aspects of it 2:17:19.560 --> 2:17:22.560 are very toxic and becoming politicized in a way that 2:17:22.760 --> 2:17:27.560 is um aggressive. Um, how do we how do we 2:17:27.640 --> 2:17:30.680 have a positive influence and kind of hopefully pull things 2:17:31.160 --> 2:17:34.400 back because I do think within kind of the issue 2:17:34.440 --> 2:17:38.440 of gun rights, there's more actually more possibility for people 2:17:38.520 --> 2:17:41.320 to sort of come together and reaching a chord than 2:17:41.360 --> 2:17:44.600 there is on something like abortion. Um. And I think 2:17:45.000 --> 2:17:47.240 a lot of that conversation is going to start in 2:17:47.320 --> 2:17:50.880 spaces like the one you inhabit. Yeah, no, I yeah. 2:17:51.120 --> 2:17:53.440 I like what you say culture jamming because another term 2:17:53.520 --> 2:17:55.640 I've heard is subversibile. That's not the intent, but like 2:17:56.000 --> 2:17:58.800 you mentioned, the red Summer of nineteen nineteen, and yeah, 2:17:58.840 --> 2:18:00.800 I talked to when I talked to a lot of 2:18:00.840 --> 2:18:04.640 people that that are really historically interested in minded and 2:18:04.720 --> 2:18:06.720 I was astonished how many people have not even heard 2:18:06.760 --> 2:18:09.560 of it, never mind you only like the explicit realities 2:18:09.640 --> 2:18:11.720 of it. And so when it comes to the culture 2:18:11.760 --> 2:18:15.039 jamming thing, there's one video I did about or two 2:18:15.080 --> 2:18:17.000 of the events of Red Summer of nineteen nineteen, one 2:18:17.000 --> 2:18:20.279 of them here in Bisbee locally, and it's an interesting 2:18:20.360 --> 2:18:24.280 problem to someone who normally would be considered as a 2:18:24.440 --> 2:18:28.240 very standard issue firearms content creator. In that particular Red 2:18:28.280 --> 2:18:31.359 Summer nineteen nineteen episode, it turned into the local police 2:18:31.840 --> 2:18:36.280 attempting to disarm the tenth Cavalry soldiers who are off 2:18:36.400 --> 2:18:40.640 you know, military soldiers in bis Beyond recreation, And so 2:18:40.760 --> 2:18:43.880 you've got this interesting cognitive dissonance. Do I support the 2:18:44.000 --> 2:18:46.280 cops that a lot of firearms people are like just 2:18:46.600 --> 2:18:49.320 blindly support, or do I support the military, which a 2:18:49.360 --> 2:18:52.240 lot of fires people blindly support when both of them 2:18:52.360 --> 2:18:55.160 converge and the and it's a racist agenda in it 2:18:55.600 --> 2:18:58.040 that poses a question that I like to do with 2:18:58.280 --> 2:18:59.880 like this kind of content, because it means that the 2:19:00.000 --> 2:19:02.400 you or has to really if they get through the video, 2:19:02.640 --> 2:19:05.360 have to introspectively go holy funk, Which do I support 2:19:05.440 --> 2:19:07.520 or do I support either? Or is there a problem 2:19:07.600 --> 2:19:10.320 here I haven't been considering. I think asking questions like 2:19:10.440 --> 2:19:13.680 that really matters when you try to like start these 2:19:13.720 --> 2:19:16.520 conversations with people who are kind of in the same 2:19:16.600 --> 2:19:20.240 space but but not you know, I haven't considered talking 2:19:20.280 --> 2:19:22.880 about this stuff before or on what would traditionally be 2:19:22.920 --> 2:19:27.560 seen as kind of very opposed political um wing. How 2:19:27.560 --> 2:19:29.920 do you kind of start these conversations in a way 2:19:30.000 --> 2:19:32.400 that makes it most likely that you're gonna be able 2:19:32.400 --> 2:19:35.080 to have a positive dialogue that actually moves forward as 2:19:35.080 --> 2:19:37.560 opposed to kind of getting bogged down in the and 2:19:37.640 --> 2:19:39.400 the things that caused people to just kind of lock 2:19:39.480 --> 2:19:42.880 horns generally when you we start getting into these areas. Yeah, 2:19:43.000 --> 2:19:44.959 you know, I don't know, it's totally possible you're gonna 2:19:44.959 --> 2:19:47.480 have that problem no matter what you see that with 2:19:47.520 --> 2:19:50.600 your work. For surely, when you take an honest approach 2:19:50.640 --> 2:19:53.160 to history and just be like, here's the facts, Um, 2:19:53.280 --> 2:19:55.440 there's gonna be people that are just gonna be completely 2:19:55.480 --> 2:19:57.760 resistant to that. They're not going to take it. But um, 2:19:58.360 --> 2:20:00.280 I think the best way to do that is to 2:20:00.440 --> 2:20:02.440 just be that honest approach to it like one of 2:20:02.480 --> 2:20:04.800 the things that I think we do with firearms content 2:20:05.360 --> 2:20:08.600 gears cool tech is cool. Guns are neat, They're fun. 2:20:08.800 --> 2:20:11.040 I enjoy shooting with guns. I like the fourth of it. 2:20:11.400 --> 2:20:14.360 I like going to competitions. But one of the things 2:20:14.440 --> 2:20:16.400 that gets left out of the conversation a lot is 2:20:16.760 --> 2:20:19.920 what are the implications of firearms and the sociological economic 2:20:20.040 --> 2:20:22.000 environments that we live in. And I think that's one 2:20:22.040 --> 2:20:23.680 of the things that didn't get talked about. And so 2:20:24.240 --> 2:20:27.120 if we talk about it fairly and also tend to 2:20:28.120 --> 2:20:30.320 I think it's hard to do, but have people from 2:20:30.360 --> 2:20:32.960 all sides of this perspective, as long as they're not 2:20:33.959 --> 2:20:37.160 completely dangerous and toxic, being part of the conversation, we 2:20:37.240 --> 2:20:39.800 can have a better middle ground. That's the hard part. 2:20:39.879 --> 2:20:42.920 Like so being inclusive, ironically, even of views that you 2:20:42.959 --> 2:20:45.400 aren't necessarily your own, as long as the person you're 2:20:45.400 --> 2:20:49.360 dealing with isn't. My line is, if you're actively supporting 2:20:49.680 --> 2:20:53.440 bigotry or the harm of other people, there's a no go. 2:20:53.560 --> 2:20:55.960 We're done. But if we have different views but we 2:20:56.040 --> 2:20:58.480 realize that that's not the intent, then then we should 2:20:58.480 --> 2:21:01.160 have a conversation. I think that that's a difference. Now. 2:21:01.320 --> 2:21:02.960 I think one of the areas in which this can 2:21:03.000 --> 2:21:05.440 get murkiest is when you are talking to people and 2:21:05.440 --> 2:21:08.680 I've had a few of these conversations who are convinced 2:21:08.760 --> 2:21:12.080 that there is uh that they're kind of on the 2:21:12.160 --> 2:21:16.000 precipice of of a violent conflict sparked by someone coming 2:21:16.040 --> 2:21:18.480 to take their guns right that and it, And you know, 2:21:18.560 --> 2:21:21.199 there's the version of this that is like, I'm worried 2:21:21.280 --> 2:21:22.720 that the a t F Is going to do some 2:21:22.800 --> 2:21:24.200 fuckory in a bunch of my ship is going to 2:21:24.240 --> 2:21:26.000 be illegal, which is pretty reasonable. And then there's the 2:21:26.320 --> 2:21:28.440 I'm worried Antifa's going to come to my small town 2:21:28.520 --> 2:21:30.800 and and and take my you know, guns or do 2:21:30.920 --> 2:21:33.920 whatever like Because that there are often people in that 2:21:34.040 --> 2:21:39.800 who are just kind of um tragically misinformed and radicalized 2:21:39.879 --> 2:21:43.600 in a way that they're not so much eager to 2:21:43.760 --> 2:21:46.800 harm people as they are just like broken and frightened 2:21:46.879 --> 2:21:49.440 because of the things that have been fed to them. Um, 2:21:49.879 --> 2:21:51.960 do you have any kind of best practices when it 2:21:52.000 --> 2:21:54.480 comes to sort of approaching those conversations and trying to 2:21:55.440 --> 2:21:58.800 improve the information those people are getting. I guess for 2:21:58.879 --> 2:22:00.400 me in that, regardless of what I here when I 2:22:00.440 --> 2:22:02.000 see people like that, and I think all of us 2:22:02.040 --> 2:22:04.160 have those people in our world, whether it's your your 2:22:04.160 --> 2:22:06.080 aunt or your uncle or a friend, right, Like we've 2:22:06.080 --> 2:22:08.320 seen that over the last couple of years for sure. Um, 2:22:08.760 --> 2:22:10.600 I think the best thing you can do there for 2:22:10.720 --> 2:22:13.040 me again, I'm just talking to My approach is a 2:22:13.520 --> 2:22:16.360 break the echo chamber if you can. And so the 2:22:16.440 --> 2:22:18.200 echo chamber is the problem when we suck from the 2:22:18.240 --> 2:22:21.640 fire hose of only one source, like NonStop. Yeah, that's 2:22:21.640 --> 2:22:23.600 gonna be dangerous. That's the kind of stuff that pollutes 2:22:23.640 --> 2:22:25.200 your mind to the point where you can't think outside 2:22:25.200 --> 2:22:28.800 of that box. So like being more inclusive and that 2:22:28.879 --> 2:22:31.640 word is kind of a trigger word or catchphrase, but 2:22:32.000 --> 2:22:34.840 being legitimately more inclusive and presenting a lot of different 2:22:35.280 --> 2:22:38.520 diversity that really is part of the firearms community. Can 2:22:38.680 --> 2:22:41.800 I can in some circumstances break the echo chamber? Like 2:22:42.000 --> 2:22:44.280 I'm really happy with this one project on the channel 2:22:44.280 --> 2:22:47.720 where I'm working with the net Evans about specifically a 2:22:47.840 --> 2:22:51.080 female or woman's approach to self defense with firearms. And 2:22:51.160 --> 2:22:53.040 you don't really see that. You'll see like channels that 2:22:53.080 --> 2:22:55.520 are only for women, and you'll see like all the 2:22:55.680 --> 2:22:59.480 majority of gun channels that are only for gun fascinated dudes. 2:22:59.720 --> 2:23:02.200 But throwing that into the mix, there's gonna be some 2:23:02.360 --> 2:23:04.200 subset of people that will clicking and watch it out 2:23:04.240 --> 2:23:06.360 of that g whiz Lowell and that kind of stuff 2:23:06.400 --> 2:23:08.560 can break a paradigm in terms of well, I never 2:23:08.640 --> 2:23:10.640 thought of that. I never looked at it from that perspective. 2:23:10.680 --> 2:23:12.400 And that's at least that's what I think is the 2:23:12.560 --> 2:23:15.400 right answer is do your best to make sure you're 2:23:15.800 --> 2:23:20.000 approachable and try to break the echo chamber. Yeah, that 2:23:20.120 --> 2:23:23.119 makes complete Yeah, I mean that makes a lot of sense. Um. 2:23:24.040 --> 2:23:26.200 I think the other side of this is also worth 2:23:26.280 --> 2:23:28.280 talking about because we've kind of been focused on how 2:23:28.320 --> 2:23:30.120 do you break the echo chamber, how do you get 2:23:30.200 --> 2:23:32.080 people who are you know, in the gun culture on 2:23:32.120 --> 2:23:35.880 the right to be more open minded. The other side 2:23:35.920 --> 2:23:37.600 of this is you have a lot of people who 2:23:37.640 --> 2:23:40.360 are kind of liberals um or on the left who 2:23:40.480 --> 2:23:45.680 have a really reflexively negative opinion to the reaction to 2:23:45.800 --> 2:23:48.800 the very idea of gun ownership or gun rights, and 2:23:48.959 --> 2:23:52.000 have these you know, you will generally see there's there's 2:23:52.000 --> 2:23:54.040 a mix of people who can come to it from 2:23:54.080 --> 2:23:56.199 a very reasonable and argued point to mix of people 2:23:56.200 --> 2:23:58.080 who are just going to, like in the same way 2:23:58.120 --> 2:23:59.840 that folks on the right to throw out a handful 2:23:59.840 --> 2:24:02.720 of quotes that they've seen on memes, um, that they 2:24:02.800 --> 2:24:05.279 can use to kind of, you know, shut down debate. 2:24:05.360 --> 2:24:07.240 How do you do you have a lot of those 2:24:07.280 --> 2:24:09.400 conversations where you're kind of trying to make people at 2:24:09.480 --> 2:24:11.360 least more open to because this is something my work 2:24:11.360 --> 2:24:12.680 has dealt with a lot. Is kind of trying to 2:24:12.720 --> 2:24:14.879 sit down to like, I get why you don't think 2:24:14.920 --> 2:24:18.440 these things should be legal. Um, obviously, I I see 2:24:18.480 --> 2:24:21.440 the same mass shooting news that you do. There's a problem, 2:24:21.560 --> 2:24:23.640 a deep problem with guns in this country. I don't 2:24:23.640 --> 2:24:27.160 deny that, but like, let's also talk about the idea 2:24:27.280 --> 2:24:29.760 that the state should have an absolute monopoly on on 2:24:29.840 --> 2:24:32.560 the ability to do violence. Let's talk about the ability 2:24:32.640 --> 2:24:34.960 of marginalized groups to defend themselves. Let's talk about the 2:24:35.000 --> 2:24:37.320 history of gun control and how it's like it is 2:24:37.440 --> 2:24:39.800 it is. There's a lot of conversations that kind of 2:24:39.879 --> 2:24:43.280 get wrapped up in that. UM. I'm wondering, do you 2:24:43.360 --> 2:24:45.440 have thoughts in terms of like how to kind of 2:24:45.560 --> 2:24:48.720 broach those and progressive avenues to go down to when 2:24:48.760 --> 2:24:51.120 you're having that side of the conversation. You know, it's 2:24:51.160 --> 2:24:53.320 totally interesting. I think I feel like I don't I'm 2:24:53.360 --> 2:24:55.240 curious what you think about this from your work as well. 2:24:55.320 --> 2:24:58.840 I feel like over the last for good reasons, over 2:24:58.879 --> 2:25:01.200 the last couple of years, more than a couple of years, 2:25:01.600 --> 2:25:04.680 I think I've seen, maybe it's just my own echo chamber, 2:25:05.000 --> 2:25:07.040 I've seen a lot of people on that side of 2:25:07.080 --> 2:25:10.240 the political spectrum coming more and more around too being 2:25:10.320 --> 2:25:13.720 pro gun. Yeah, and then the statistics back that up. 2:25:13.800 --> 2:25:16.400 Supportive and social in the United States is the lowest 2:25:16.440 --> 2:25:18.440 it's been in quite a while. In so that like 2:25:18.560 --> 2:25:20.400 if there's that joke on that side of the political 2:25:20.480 --> 2:25:22.000 fence about you go far enough left to get your 2:25:22.040 --> 2:25:24.760 guns back right, um so um. But I think there's 2:25:24.800 --> 2:25:26.320 been a real wake up call for a lot of 2:25:26.360 --> 2:25:29.400 people that used to be very much vehemently against the 2:25:29.480 --> 2:25:33.759 idea with some of the stuff they saw and went, whoa, Um, 2:25:34.080 --> 2:25:36.720 this isn't These aren't going away. And if you're reasonable, 2:25:36.760 --> 2:25:39.039 if you're willing to have a rational thought about, at 2:25:39.120 --> 2:25:41.720 least in this country, the reality of firearms ownership, whether 2:25:41.760 --> 2:25:43.600 you like it or not, it's not debatable. This is 2:25:43.640 --> 2:25:45.720 real it's what it is. They're not like they could 2:25:45.760 --> 2:25:48.040 ban everything tomorrow and there's gonna be air fifteens in 2:25:48.080 --> 2:25:51.440 this country for the next hundred years. Um, so that 2:25:51.480 --> 2:25:53.880 ain't going to change. So with that realization, maybe the 2:25:54.160 --> 2:25:56.320 maybe the better idea, which I think is with all 2:25:56.400 --> 2:25:59.000 technology is instead of being afraid of it, is to 2:25:59.040 --> 2:26:01.560 actually learn about and understand it, whether you want it 2:26:01.640 --> 2:26:04.520 or not. You but like learning and understanding it is 2:26:04.520 --> 2:26:08.800 at least a step further forward than just complete object fear. Yeah, 2:26:08.920 --> 2:26:11.160 that that is often kind of where I start the 2:26:11.240 --> 2:26:13.760 conversation with just like we have to deal with the 2:26:13.879 --> 2:26:15.560 reality as it is on the ground, which is that 2:26:15.680 --> 2:26:19.040 there's four million firearms in private hands here, which is 2:26:19.120 --> 2:26:20.680 not all that far from half of all of the 2:26:20.760 --> 2:26:24.200 guns in the world. Um, So any any sort of 2:26:24.360 --> 2:26:26.360 like plan you have, it's the kind of like one 2:26:26.400 --> 2:26:28.680 of the things that often comes up in those conversations 2:26:28.800 --> 2:26:30.600 is Australia and people they were like, well they were 2:26:30.640 --> 2:26:33.920 able to do it after now Port Arthur was Scotland. Um, 2:26:34.120 --> 2:26:36.160 I forget the name of the massacre, but there was 2:26:36.200 --> 2:26:40.240 a massacre in in in Australia that they banned most 2:26:40.560 --> 2:26:44.200 kinds of firearms after and confiscated them, and it gets 2:26:44.240 --> 2:26:45.720 brought up a lot where like, well they did this 2:26:45.840 --> 2:26:47.400 in the short frame of time, and there was this 2:26:47.600 --> 2:26:50.480 this impact on gun violence deaths. Why couldn't we do it? 2:26:50.560 --> 2:26:53.120 And the reason is that they had to confiscate a 2:26:53.160 --> 2:26:55.320 total of two hundred thousand arms and there's four hundred 2:26:55.360 --> 2:26:58.520 million guns in private hands in the United States. Um, 2:26:59.680 --> 2:27:02.360 it's it's a different scale of problem. And that that's 2:27:02.400 --> 2:27:04.600 before we get into sort of the legal barriers because 2:27:04.760 --> 2:27:07.920 Australia didn't have a Second Amendment. Obviously, like whether or 2:27:07.959 --> 2:27:10.520 not you like it, firearms have a level of protection 2:27:10.560 --> 2:27:12.840 that is equivalent to the protection free speech enjoys in 2:27:12.879 --> 2:27:15.720 this country. And you can't just pretend that's not the case. 2:27:15.840 --> 2:27:20.200 There's this tremendous body of jurisprudence around it. Yeah, no, totally, 2:27:20.320 --> 2:27:21.960 and like so that that's that's part of it is 2:27:21.959 --> 2:27:24.720 the reality there. Australian here is a completely different beast 2:27:24.800 --> 2:27:27.000 as well as culturally, like the people that were into 2:27:27.040 --> 2:27:29.360 guns there, And I don't mean to offend any Australians listening, 2:27:29.440 --> 2:27:31.920 but it wasn't like here, like in a place of 2:27:31.959 --> 2:27:36.680 Arizona at least like Arizona. Guns are just if you're 2:27:36.720 --> 2:27:40.320 in Arizonian they're just intrinsically part of life, whether like 2:27:40.400 --> 2:27:42.480 they're just constant. They're everywhere you go to like you 2:27:42.560 --> 2:27:45.000 see them open care you not always do she open 2:27:45.040 --> 2:27:47.560 care either. Sometimes it's like reasonable, open carey. Sometimes you 2:27:47.600 --> 2:27:49.920 see the other side of it. But they're just everywhere. 2:27:49.959 --> 2:27:51.400 It's just part of the deal. And it's like a 2:27:51.440 --> 2:27:52.840 lot of that in a lot of the country. And 2:27:52.959 --> 2:27:57.080 so UM I actually think that that fear based ignorance 2:27:57.160 --> 2:28:00.160 of them is more dangerous because then we don't teach 2:28:00.200 --> 2:28:01.640 people what to do around them or how to be 2:28:01.720 --> 2:28:04.880 safe around them, kind of like abstinence, Like education and 2:28:04.920 --> 2:28:07.640 school teach people not to have some well that's dumb 2:28:07.840 --> 2:28:10.600 that ain't gonna work, and guns exist in this country. 2:28:10.680 --> 2:28:12.600 Does just be afraid of them that don't work either. 2:28:13.080 --> 2:28:16.959 So in regard, I think that the reality is it's 2:28:17.040 --> 2:28:19.960 much better to UM to approach this. What I think. 2:28:20.000 --> 2:28:21.400 I guess the way I try to deal with that 2:28:21.600 --> 2:28:25.360 is if you don't fetishize them, people that are more 2:28:25.440 --> 2:28:27.920 afraid of them are less likely to just click away. 2:28:28.480 --> 2:28:30.520 If you talk about them like this is a thing, 2:28:30.920 --> 2:28:33.560 here's what they are, They're not a totem against evil. 2:28:33.560 --> 2:28:36.880 They're just a tool. And here's a historical story or 2:28:37.000 --> 2:28:40.480 narrative or sociological impact of this that's not fetishizing it 2:28:40.560 --> 2:28:43.560 as some religious item. I think that that helps break 2:28:43.600 --> 2:28:46.200 that barrier a little bit. And I think that that 2:28:46.320 --> 2:28:48.080 does bring me to something I think about a lot, 2:28:48.200 --> 2:28:51.280 which is the how you're in and actually has I 2:28:51.320 --> 2:28:53.360 think gotten a bit better than it was prior to 2:28:53.480 --> 2:28:55.800 Sandy Hook, but the very sorry state in a lot 2:28:55.879 --> 2:29:00.160 of cases of advertising of gear and guns. UM think 2:29:00.200 --> 2:29:02.320 the most famous example was a I believe it was 2:29:02.360 --> 2:29:05.280 a Bushmaster ad that got pulled after Sandy Hook that 2:29:05.400 --> 2:29:07.320 was like an a R fifteen that came with a 2:29:07.400 --> 2:29:12.000 man card that you would get like with your gun. Yeah, 2:29:12.040 --> 2:29:14.160 get your man card back. Your Man card has been 2:29:14.200 --> 2:29:16.960 reissued because you have this gun here, and that I 2:29:17.560 --> 2:29:20.119 I you know, I've seen a lot of different gun 2:29:20.240 --> 2:29:23.160 cultures because it's actually, like we've just talked about how 2:29:23.240 --> 2:29:25.360 unique U s gun culture is, but a lot of 2:29:25.440 --> 2:29:28.160 people actually own firearms around the world. There's a lot 2:29:28.160 --> 2:29:30.160 of even like in Europe, like France has a very 2:29:30.240 --> 2:29:33.560 significant gun culture. Um and in Germany, you'd be surprised 2:29:33.600 --> 2:29:35.360 like people can own a lot of the same weapons 2:29:35.400 --> 2:29:36.800 you can here, there's a lot more hoops to jump 2:29:36.840 --> 2:29:40.160 through to to get access to them. Um, but there's 2:29:40.160 --> 2:29:43.119 still like there's gun cultures all around, and especially places 2:29:43.200 --> 2:29:46.480 like Iraq and Syria. It was really going to um 2:29:46.920 --> 2:29:48.760 when I saw kind of the gun culture that I 2:29:49.520 --> 2:29:51.760 I most wanted to port some things over to hear 2:29:51.840 --> 2:29:55.040 from there. It was in northeast Syria, in Rojava, where 2:29:55.560 --> 2:29:58.160 like damn near every not every individual, but every like 2:29:58.280 --> 2:30:00.920 family had an a k because in art there was 2:30:01.000 --> 2:30:03.280 this understanding that you have a duty from time to 2:30:03.360 --> 2:30:05.960 time to like patrol and watch your neighborhood and not 2:30:06.120 --> 2:30:07.760 in sort of this like I'm gonna set up a 2:30:07.840 --> 2:30:10.840 checkpoint for Antifa, but in I like, hey, isis just 2:30:10.959 --> 2:30:13.360 carried out a big attack. Let's let's get some folks 2:30:13.400 --> 2:30:15.760 out into the streets to like watch our neighborhoods, because 2:30:15.800 --> 2:30:17.600 that's just the reality of the world, and we don't 2:30:17.920 --> 2:30:19.840 we don't do we don't just have like a group 2:30:19.879 --> 2:30:23.640 of militarized police rolling around every neighborhood. Like we also 2:30:24.400 --> 2:30:27.440 are responsible for protecting our communities and so we train 2:30:27.560 --> 2:30:29.720 with weapons. And there was a lot of conversations I 2:30:29.800 --> 2:30:32.800 had with women about like, well, the fact that I 2:30:32.959 --> 2:30:34.840 have this and know how to use it now means 2:30:34.920 --> 2:30:37.120 that things can't be done to me that were before 2:30:37.520 --> 2:30:39.320 because I have an a K forty seven, And that 2:30:39.480 --> 2:30:43.240 means something I would like to port the kind of 2:30:43.760 --> 2:30:45.720 like what you were talking about, not just seeing it 2:30:45.840 --> 2:30:47.720 as a tool, but seeing it as a tool with 2:30:47.920 --> 2:30:51.880 societal responsibilities. You don't just have a gun so you 2:30:51.920 --> 2:30:53.840 can hold up in your house in the zombie apocalypse. 2:30:53.920 --> 2:30:56.600 You have a gun because you're part of a community 2:30:57.080 --> 2:31:00.120 and because there's there's some value that we see in 2:31:00.440 --> 2:31:05.120 members of the community being armed and not just the state. Yeah, no, totally. 2:31:05.280 --> 2:31:06.680 So I mean that goes that kind of goes way 2:31:06.720 --> 2:31:09.760 back to the old like now sort of silly sounding thing, 2:31:09.840 --> 2:31:12.320 but like God made man, cult made them equal, right 2:31:12.360 --> 2:31:15.280 so before that, like if you were a frail human 2:31:15.320 --> 2:31:19.000 being for whatever reasons, Um, you really were sort of defenseless, 2:31:19.080 --> 2:31:21.840 especially in the places like the frontier. But skill at 2:31:21.959 --> 2:31:25.880 arms could change that and um, and that it puts 2:31:26.000 --> 2:31:29.960 it can put a more balanced power infrastructure in place. Um. 2:31:30.240 --> 2:31:31.440 Not that I want to live in a world, but 2:31:31.520 --> 2:31:34.640 we're always like at this point of mutually assured destruction. 2:31:35.160 --> 2:31:37.800 But it is much better to have more power balanced 2:31:37.840 --> 2:31:42.920 than power imbalance, and firearms absolutely provide that in trained, responsible, 2:31:43.080 --> 2:31:46.120 educated hands. Um. And that's what I think the story 2:31:46.200 --> 2:31:48.440 should be, right, that's the emphasis. Like when when the 2:31:48.480 --> 2:31:50.600 whole thing happened went down in Iraq like you're describing, 2:31:50.640 --> 2:31:52.600 I think it was ironic. One of the things that 2:31:52.879 --> 2:31:54.880 the US military did was allowed every home to have 2:31:54.959 --> 2:31:57.119 an AK, like because you get to keep one gun 2:31:57.160 --> 2:31:59.160 and it's one of these and uh, and you talked 2:31:59.200 --> 2:32:02.600 about gun unders worldwide, like, Um, once you jumped through 2:32:02.680 --> 2:32:05.160 some of the hurdles in some of these countries, it's 2:32:05.200 --> 2:32:10.280 actually easier to own certain things than you can't. Like, yeah, 2:32:11.200 --> 2:32:13.039 like a machine gun in the US is highly regulated. 2:32:13.080 --> 2:32:16.400 It's four and pretty difficult and highly expensive because of 2:32:16.440 --> 2:32:19.920 a specially closed market. But like Bloke on the Range, 2:32:19.920 --> 2:32:22.000 one of the guys I work with on on on YouTube, 2:32:22.440 --> 2:32:24.080 once he gets his permit, like he's like, I'm just 2:32:24.080 --> 2:32:26.520 gonna go buy a fully automatic stent and he just does. 2:32:26.959 --> 2:32:28.760 And it's not at an exorbitant price like it would 2:32:28.760 --> 2:32:31.000 be in the United States. So it's not apples to 2:32:31.040 --> 2:32:33.240 apples like these controls, whether we like them or not. 2:32:33.320 --> 2:32:35.320 Some of them are actually more liberal than we have 2:32:35.440 --> 2:32:38.040 in the United States. Yeah, I think a good example 2:32:38.520 --> 2:32:40.200 of that, and an example of where like a lot 2:32:40.240 --> 2:32:43.320 of folks who might kind of reflexively think this is insane, 2:32:43.440 --> 2:32:46.840 but like it's silencers, you know, suppressors being the more 2:32:46.920 --> 2:32:48.920 accurate term, but silencer is what you call them. It's 2:32:48.920 --> 2:32:50.480 the thing you see James Bond screw on the end 2:32:50.480 --> 2:32:54.480 of his gun to make it quiet um. And there's 2:32:54.520 --> 2:32:57.240 the like this attitude that they should be heavily restricted 2:32:57.240 --> 2:33:00.200 because there's this misnomer that for the most part they 2:33:00.280 --> 2:33:02.360 make things sound like stuff in James Bond. Now, there 2:33:02.360 --> 2:33:05.519 are some ways to get a firearm that is incredibly 2:33:05.600 --> 2:33:08.600 quiet um, particularly using like a smaller around and sub 2:33:08.680 --> 2:33:11.760 sonic ammunition. There are some very some weapons you can 2:33:11.879 --> 2:33:14.480 effectively make quiet enough that people won't notice it. But 2:33:14.520 --> 2:33:16.800 when you're putting a silencer on an a R fifteen, 2:33:16.879 --> 2:33:19.320 it is not quiet. No one will miss it firing. 2:33:20.000 --> 2:33:21.920 But what it won't do if you have to defend 2:33:21.959 --> 2:33:24.640 yourself in your home is shatter your ear drums forever, 2:33:24.879 --> 2:33:28.279 right or this is honestly the bigger case for suppressors. 2:33:28.560 --> 2:33:30.840 If you are hunting with an animal, as a lot 2:33:30.879 --> 2:33:33.000 of people do with your dogs. You can have a 2:33:33.040 --> 2:33:35.560 suppressor on your shotgun as your bird hunting or whatever, 2:33:35.640 --> 2:33:38.920 and you will not destroy that dog's ears. Um. You know, 2:33:39.000 --> 2:33:40.880 it's the same thing like I'm hunting for deer. You know, 2:33:40.959 --> 2:33:44.640 it's it's it's easier. Um, it's like less dangerous for 2:33:44.720 --> 2:33:47.640 you potentially. Like I one thing you notice, if you've 2:33:47.640 --> 2:33:49.840 spent a lot of time around hunting dogs, they don't 2:33:50.000 --> 2:33:52.440 have good hearing by the time they get older because 2:33:52.440 --> 2:33:56.720 they're hunting. You know. It's funny suppressors, Like everything that's 2:33:56.760 --> 2:34:00.520 that's more controlled has gotta allure of magic around, right, Like, oh, 2:34:00.640 --> 2:34:03.200 a suppressor of silencer or or for that matter, of 2:34:03.320 --> 2:34:05.640 machine gun, and like therefore it is the forbidden fruit 2:34:05.879 --> 2:34:07.640 and everyone wants it more than they ever would have 2:34:08.000 --> 2:34:10.720 once you own. I have one transferable machine guns with 2:34:10.840 --> 2:34:13.040 tax stamped the whole nine yards, and I shoot it 2:34:13.120 --> 2:34:14.760 like once a year because you shoot it and then 2:34:14.760 --> 2:34:18.840 you're like, wow, that was expensive, and and it's like, oh, 2:34:19.000 --> 2:34:20.800 we that was fun, and then you put it away. 2:34:20.879 --> 2:34:22.879 And the truth is the some automatic stuff is far 2:34:23.000 --> 2:34:26.480 more interesting and actually generally more effective once you use 2:34:26.560 --> 2:34:29.360 full auto fire, it's got very limited use. Um. Fully 2:34:29.480 --> 2:34:31.680 there there, I mean there is like if we again 2:34:31.720 --> 2:34:34.160 are being complete, there's one mass shooting I can think 2:34:34.240 --> 2:34:37.720 of where a fully automatic weapon made the shooter more 2:34:37.840 --> 2:34:40.520 dangerous and it was the Las Vegas shooting because he 2:34:40.680 --> 2:34:44.240 was in a set fixed position. Um. He was holed 2:34:44.360 --> 2:34:47.000 up um and he had he was not like moving 2:34:47.080 --> 2:34:49.720 and standing, he was like braced while firing into a 2:34:49.800 --> 2:34:52.520 crowd from a building. As a general rule, if you're 2:34:52.520 --> 2:34:55.560 talking about like what's someone going to be more dangerous with, 2:34:55.720 --> 2:34:58.480 if they're somebody who decides to shoot up something, it's 2:34:58.520 --> 2:35:01.720 a semi automatic weapon. Because atomatic weapon number one going 2:35:01.800 --> 2:35:04.840 to jam more often requires a bit more understanding and 2:35:04.959 --> 2:35:07.039 know how on behalf of the user. And also it's 2:35:07.040 --> 2:35:08.800 a lot harder to hit with and we'll run out 2:35:08.840 --> 2:35:11.120 of ammunition very quickly as opposed to it and a 2:35:11.200 --> 2:35:13.480 semi automatic a R fifteen. The reason they are so 2:35:13.600 --> 2:35:15.960 often used in mass shootings is it's kind of the 2:35:16.040 --> 2:35:18.800 best weapon to use for that. If that's it's also prolific, Right, 2:35:18.840 --> 2:35:23.120 there's like cordwood in this country. You can like they're 2:35:23.160 --> 2:35:26.120 literally everywhere. Um. The Las Vega shooter, though, I don't 2:35:26.160 --> 2:35:28.119 know that he had actually any truly select fire guns. 2:35:28.160 --> 2:35:30.560 Weren't they it was, Yeah, he was using a bump stock. 2:35:30.640 --> 2:35:32.960 I think it's close enough to Yeah, well no, it's 2:35:32.959 --> 2:35:35.000 a good analog. But it is interesting to note and 2:35:35.080 --> 2:35:37.680 that guy. What's interesting about that guy's um? Well, of 2:35:37.720 --> 2:35:41.240 course his act was horrific and evil. Obviously, he used 2:35:41.280 --> 2:35:44.120 a bunch of air fifteens with like shitty bump stocks, 2:35:44.480 --> 2:35:47.400 and he had planned something like this for years apparently. Yeah, 2:35:47.560 --> 2:35:49.800 he had Tanner right in the set up too, which 2:35:49.879 --> 2:35:52.360 is yeah, no one knows, I mean as we know, 2:35:52.560 --> 2:35:54.440 no one currently, I don't know anyone knows what his 2:35:54.520 --> 2:35:57.400 motivation was, at least it hasn't been released. But he 2:35:57.480 --> 2:35:59.640 had been planning something like this for a very long time. 2:36:00.280 --> 2:36:02.200 And what's ironic about that is that if he had 2:36:02.240 --> 2:36:04.080 bided his time, he could have actually had a real 2:36:04.640 --> 2:36:08.040 select fire like belt fed machine gun. He just did 2:36:08.080 --> 2:36:11.360 a millionaire. Yeah he could have done that, and uh, um, 2:36:11.720 --> 2:36:14.040 this could but he just went with this bump stock 2:36:14.760 --> 2:36:17.960 kind of garbage, which is weird. Um, that's a whole 2:36:17.959 --> 2:36:20.840 another topic, but it is, and it it is like 2:36:20.920 --> 2:36:22.560 that is one of those cases when you talk to 2:36:22.600 --> 2:36:25.720 people in the right where it's like, after that shooting, Um, 2:36:26.680 --> 2:36:30.760 Donald Trump and his administration banned bump stocks. UM, which 2:36:30.840 --> 2:36:32.520 is more gun control than we got out of eight 2:36:32.600 --> 2:36:35.680 years of Obama. You know, oh boy, you point that 2:36:35.720 --> 2:36:39.640 out at least on the center. In fact, um. Uh, 2:36:39.920 --> 2:36:42.680 there's always this narrative that you know, this political party 2:36:42.720 --> 2:36:45.200 will take your guns, and this polargically party waved. But 2:36:45.320 --> 2:36:48.640 the truth is, statistically and historically speaking, both tend to 2:36:48.720 --> 2:36:51.040 air on the side of trying to add more restrictions 2:36:51.120 --> 2:36:53.280 over time, like if you do it over time like 2:36:53.520 --> 2:36:55.800 Obama didn't. In fact, Obama open things up. I think 2:36:55.840 --> 2:37:00.800 he liberalized concealed carry of pistol or firearms in national parks. 2:37:01.240 --> 2:37:03.800 Actually he actually made guns a little easier to deal with. UM. 2:37:04.200 --> 2:37:09.080 But then, via essentially executive order edict, you've got Trump 2:37:09.120 --> 2:37:11.840 banning bump stocks, which, whether you like bump stocks or not, 2:37:12.000 --> 2:37:14.520 I think the way that went down is questionable legally speaking, 2:37:14.560 --> 2:37:17.560 but that's another topic it and and obviously the bump 2:37:17.640 --> 2:37:21.760 stocks were also somewhat questionable. They were speaking right right 2:37:21.840 --> 2:37:25.040 totally totally, but but that's that's an interesting precedent with 2:37:25.160 --> 2:37:28.000 what he did with just like Fiat edict um. But 2:37:28.440 --> 2:37:31.560 that that said, like historically, over time, there's always been 2:37:32.200 --> 2:37:35.280 more restrictions, not less, from both sides. And when you 2:37:35.360 --> 2:37:37.360 point that out, the people that just kind of drink 2:37:37.400 --> 2:37:39.080 the kool aid from one side or the other, I 2:37:39.160 --> 2:37:42.120 want to just immediately knee jerk on you. And you're like, no, 2:37:42.320 --> 2:37:45.360 this is weird. This is coming from all directions. Really, yeah, 2:37:45.400 --> 2:37:47.200 and I think it is. It is a big part 2:37:47.240 --> 2:37:49.520 of it is just that, like as a general rule, 2:37:49.680 --> 2:37:52.320 people who are rich and powerful do not want poor 2:37:52.400 --> 2:37:55.560 people to be armed. It doesn't tend to work out 2:37:55.600 --> 2:37:57.800 in their favor. The only time they want poor people 2:37:57.920 --> 2:37:59.360 armed is when they send them to a war they 2:37:59.440 --> 2:38:03.879 decided to. Uh yeah, Obviously the history of gun controls 2:38:03.920 --> 2:38:07.560 would have lay tied to racism and the Black Panthers 2:38:07.840 --> 2:38:10.760 and a whole stuff around California's gun laws being started 2:38:10.800 --> 2:38:14.080 to curb black people from promoting play out arms, and 2:38:14.240 --> 2:38:16.320 so it would be we would be You could argue 2:38:16.320 --> 2:38:18.880 in some ways that Reagan had a big role in 2:38:18.959 --> 2:38:22.039 inventing our modern concepts of like what gun control means 2:38:22.120 --> 2:38:24.480 and what kind of gun control laws like liberal states 2:38:24.560 --> 2:38:27.440 tend to go after on open carrying bands, on you know, 2:38:27.560 --> 2:38:30.280 concealed carrying of arms, that kind of stuff. Yeah, it's 2:38:30.280 --> 2:38:33.520 deeper than this, and there's always nuanced It's really hard, right, 2:38:33.560 --> 2:38:36.480 But like, um, like California, which is kind of one 2:38:36.520 --> 2:38:39.400 of the flagship states of gun control. UM, and I 2:38:39.560 --> 2:38:42.600 think that their methods are bizarre to me and almost 2:38:43.120 --> 2:38:47.440 on not understandable. But like you talk about Reagan, pretty 2:38:47.520 --> 2:38:49.240 much they were like, guns are cool, and then the 2:38:49.280 --> 2:38:52.440 panthers walked around with some guns. Are like, whoa fucking sorry, 2:38:52.879 --> 2:38:55.680 we better do something. And uh. Of course that the 2:38:55.959 --> 2:38:58.520 image of the panthers with their guns out walking down 2:38:58.560 --> 2:39:02.520 the street, which was their legal right, um, and it 2:39:02.720 --> 2:39:06.840 was brad and it motivated um of course a lot 2:39:06.879 --> 2:39:09.000 of things in California, which now we see where where 2:39:09.040 --> 2:39:12.280 that has led in California gun control laws. UM has 2:39:12.320 --> 2:39:14.320 also changed the narrative for so many people that are 2:39:14.360 --> 2:39:18.240 unwilling to look at things from a truly broad historical perspective. 2:39:18.640 --> 2:39:21.280 That's only one tiny thing the Black Panthers did, and 2:39:21.760 --> 2:39:24.000 the rest of their actions are so lost to just 2:39:24.120 --> 2:39:26.480 the pictures of them standing around them on carbings. And 2:39:26.560 --> 2:39:29.959 that's another example of leaving out like the Sinaical mission, 2:39:30.280 --> 2:39:32.080 we'll talk about one thing but not the rest, and 2:39:32.120 --> 2:39:35.160 therefore the historical narrative is only one thing. And it 2:39:35.360 --> 2:39:37.400 is also there's a lesson in that for people who 2:39:37.480 --> 2:39:39.480 are on the left and who are advocates of gun 2:39:39.560 --> 2:39:43.680 ownership about what happens in terms of media and in 2:39:43.840 --> 2:39:46.760 terms of how your movement is thought about and remembered 2:39:47.040 --> 2:39:49.440 when guns are a part of it, Because that's always 2:39:49.520 --> 2:39:51.840 going to for a variety of reasons, and we can 2:39:51.879 --> 2:39:54.480 say a lot of those are very unreasonable reasons. But 2:39:54.879 --> 2:39:58.280 if you are a political group who is armed and 2:39:58.560 --> 2:40:01.520 makes that a visible part of your activism, that is 2:40:01.600 --> 2:40:04.080 going to really dominate a lot of conversations. It doesn't 2:40:04.080 --> 2:40:05.720 mean you shouldn't be, but it means you have to 2:40:05.800 --> 2:40:08.120 go into that understanding that like, that's just how it 2:40:08.200 --> 2:40:11.040 works in this country. Yeah, you will immediately get you 2:40:11.320 --> 2:40:13.880 will immediately from at least some part of the perspective, 2:40:14.000 --> 2:40:16.880 whatever whatever side you're on, you will immediately get someone 2:40:17.000 --> 2:40:21.000 slinging extremist militant at you. Yeah. But by the way, 2:40:21.080 --> 2:40:22.560 I mean, those are real things too. There are those. 2:40:22.600 --> 2:40:25.240 I'm not saying there aren't extremists. We'll talk about them 2:40:25.280 --> 2:40:27.200 all the time. Yeah, this country is full of them, 2:40:27.200 --> 2:40:28.760 as is the world. So that's not that's not an 2:40:28.840 --> 2:40:32.200 unreasonable thing that does exist. But the minute you go 2:40:32.320 --> 2:40:34.320 ahead and stand with that gun, you're going to get 2:40:34.360 --> 2:40:36.760 that label, whether it's truly something you earned or not. 2:40:37.480 --> 2:40:40.600 There's a very deep conversation that we've talked about, we've 2:40:40.640 --> 2:40:44.160 had in in pieces on this program and other shows 2:40:44.200 --> 2:40:49.240 that we've done on Cool Zone about like WIN makes 2:40:49.320 --> 2:40:53.360 sense to be openly armed and WIN makes sense to 2:40:53.440 --> 2:40:55.440 be openly armed as part of a group, because that 2:40:55.680 --> 2:40:59.560 is a very fraught question as like the what happened 2:40:59.600 --> 2:41:03.400 in the chat has made abundantly clear, but in you know, 2:41:03.440 --> 2:41:06.040 a bunch of cases Kyle Rittenhouse and whatnot, there's a 2:41:06.080 --> 2:41:10.440 ton of different reasons why choosing to be openly armed. Um, 2:41:10.879 --> 2:41:12.480 there's a debate to be had about like how that 2:41:12.560 --> 2:41:16.080 influences everyone around you had that influences influences the demonstration, 2:41:16.120 --> 2:41:18.680 And I've seen and heard it used in in good 2:41:18.720 --> 2:41:21.560 ways in an irresponsible ways. I've seen people carrying guns 2:41:21.640 --> 2:41:24.200 at political events in order to intimidate others. I've also 2:41:24.280 --> 2:41:27.879 seen people carrying guns at political events to create essentially 2:41:27.920 --> 2:41:29.720 a buffer where it's like, Okay, there's going to be 2:41:29.840 --> 2:41:31.960 people fighting at this event. There's going to be clashes. 2:41:32.320 --> 2:41:34.320 If we're standing here as a group with guns. There's 2:41:34.320 --> 2:41:36.400 a place people can run back to and the fighting 2:41:36.400 --> 2:41:39.120 won't continue because nobody wants to push that. And that's yeah, 2:41:39.160 --> 2:41:41.720 without talking about specifics of intent to any of those 2:41:41.760 --> 2:41:44.840 situations you already talked about, because I can't, but yeah, 2:41:44.840 --> 2:41:46.880 I think I think it does, Like it always comes 2:41:46.920 --> 2:41:49.960 back to this thing of intent. Right. So to me, um, 2:41:50.200 --> 2:41:53.080 you're right for the firearm, absolutely true, regardless, like even 2:41:53.120 --> 2:41:54.640 if I disagree with you, this is a right, like 2:41:54.680 --> 2:41:57.520 we said, it's protected like the First Amendment, it's the second. Um. 2:41:57.800 --> 2:42:01.360 But I think the problem starts to come when you've 2:42:01.400 --> 2:42:06.119 decided to bring the firearm solely for the intended purpose 2:42:06.200 --> 2:42:09.320 of intimidation. Like that's that's where I start getting like, 2:42:09.680 --> 2:42:12.400 this is this is troubling, right, But if you're bringing 2:42:12.440 --> 2:42:15.360 it for personal defense or community defense, or there's a 2:42:15.480 --> 2:42:18.840 need because your community is really at risk. I mean 2:42:18.920 --> 2:42:20.880 one of the examples of a civil rights one was 2:42:21.360 --> 2:42:22.920 this is on someday, I'll do a video about this. 2:42:23.480 --> 2:42:26.200 A community knew that the clan was coming to intimidate them, 2:42:26.520 --> 2:42:28.840 and they armed up with surplus m one garren's and 2:42:29.400 --> 2:42:33.560 steel pot helmets literally dune fighting positions and fought them off. 2:42:33.640 --> 2:42:35.600 The clan ran for their lives. No one was killed, 2:42:35.920 --> 2:42:39.040 but they literally used m one grands to uh to 2:42:39.360 --> 2:42:42.520 stop the clan from infiltrating their community. Um. That was 2:42:42.600 --> 2:42:44.760 not used as a weapon of intimidation. It was used 2:42:44.760 --> 2:42:47.560 as a weapon of community defense. I think that's intent 2:42:47.720 --> 2:42:54.039 goes everywhere. Yeah, that's dope too. Um and yeah, I uh, 2:42:55.120 --> 2:43:01.280 I think um one thing that that that kind of 2:43:04.000 --> 2:43:06.000 I think there's a conversation that needs to be had 2:43:06.080 --> 2:43:08.560 when we start talking about when is reasonable and what 2:43:08.680 --> 2:43:11.840 situations are reasonable to carry a gun opener concealed about 2:43:11.920 --> 2:43:16.920 also what should be carried. Um, I've certainly seen because 2:43:16.920 --> 2:43:19.360 I don't I think that the most harmful thing is 2:43:19.400 --> 2:43:22.039 certainly people carrying gun to intimidate. I've also seen people 2:43:22.080 --> 2:43:25.040 carry guns as a fashion statement, which is not the 2:43:25.160 --> 2:43:27.680 same thing but as bad. For example, people on the 2:43:27.760 --> 2:43:31.200 left people at a protests bringing a loaded mosen um 2:43:31.400 --> 2:43:33.840 too because it was the gun the communists use, which 2:43:33.879 --> 2:43:35.640 is like, you don't you don't want to be in 2:43:35.720 --> 2:43:39.400 a firefight in a dense urban environment with a motion 2:43:39.480 --> 2:43:47.040 negat did you bring? It is a gun that doesn't 2:43:47.120 --> 2:43:53.480 function without a sizeable hammer, you know. And of course 2:43:53.560 --> 2:43:56.840 people on like I remember outside of this anti mask rally, 2:43:56.959 --> 2:43:58.720 these two guys who are up and carrying a r is, 2:43:58.760 --> 2:44:00.360 one of whom had an a r tin with with 2:44:00.440 --> 2:44:02.560 a hundred round drum was talking about it. We had 2:44:02.600 --> 2:44:04.480 like four hundreds something rounds on him and it was 2:44:04.560 --> 2:44:06.760 like and in case stuff pops off, and it's like, 2:44:06.959 --> 2:44:11.520 what are you number one? Like, if you're talking like that, 2:44:11.640 --> 2:44:14.120 you've spent no time thinking about what actually happens in 2:44:14.200 --> 2:44:18.160 the situations in public areas in which gunfights occur, because 2:44:18.280 --> 2:44:19.960 none of them that have happened in any time in 2:44:20.000 --> 2:44:22.800 the recent future have involved people needing to four hundred 2:44:22.879 --> 2:44:26.200 rounds of ammunition or or drum magazines or whatever. Like 2:44:26.320 --> 2:44:30.280 you are. You are not in Fallujah. You are in Salem, Oregon. Um. 2:44:30.480 --> 2:44:32.640 The extent to which a firearm can be useful for 2:44:33.600 --> 2:44:37.080 UH self defense and that does not like bragging about 2:44:37.080 --> 2:44:39.520 the number of bullets you have is just like weird 2:44:39.600 --> 2:44:41.600 and gross. You know, this is gonna come off maybe 2:44:41.600 --> 2:44:43.880 a little strange or even counterintuitive, But when I hear 2:44:43.959 --> 2:44:45.520 someone like that, at what you just described in that 2:44:45.600 --> 2:44:48.360 particular person. First of all, that guns barrel would burst 2:44:48.400 --> 2:44:49.800 in four d of rounds, But that's a whole other 2:44:49.879 --> 2:44:53.320 topic probably, But that said, UM, when I hear that, 2:44:53.400 --> 2:44:56.960 I almost have like, Um, it's kind of sad because 2:44:57.000 --> 2:44:58.840 the reason that's sad is that person is doing that 2:44:58.959 --> 2:45:01.560 one because they've been so the idea of the firearms 2:45:01.560 --> 2:45:03.880 and talisman like that. To me, that person is acting 2:45:03.920 --> 2:45:07.240 like that's a talisman. Secondarily, the reason they have four 2:45:07.280 --> 2:45:09.879 in a round is because they've been sold a pretty 2:45:09.959 --> 2:45:13.360 big bill of fear. And that's that's sad for anyone 2:45:13.440 --> 2:45:16.960 to live a life based on fear. Yeah, yeah, I 2:45:17.000 --> 2:45:20.240 would agree with that entirely. Um, do you have anything 2:45:20.280 --> 2:45:23.720 else you wanted to get into and this, uh, this conversation, well, 2:45:23.760 --> 2:45:25.119 I don't know. I mean, we're just here to talk 2:45:25.120 --> 2:45:27.960 about like community. I just I think one thing that's 2:45:28.000 --> 2:45:32.240 really important and it's something that um is a positive 2:45:32.320 --> 2:45:33.880 and I'm happy to see this is that it was 2:45:33.959 --> 2:45:35.800 kind of a happy accident with my work. I didn't 2:45:35.800 --> 2:45:37.640 even think about it. It is hard to happen, but 2:45:37.800 --> 2:45:41.119 this is a much the people people that love first 2:45:41.160 --> 2:45:43.400 of all, just the sport. There's a lot of us. 2:45:43.480 --> 2:45:46.680 There's a lot of us of all spectrums across the board, UM, 2:45:47.040 --> 2:45:49.200 people that believe in the right from the person be 2:45:49.360 --> 2:45:53.280 purposes of personal defense and community defense there across the board. 2:45:53.760 --> 2:45:55.360 And I think that one of the things that we 2:45:55.440 --> 2:45:58.400 need to do is not let the narrative be only one, 2:45:58.959 --> 2:46:03.320 which is we see so much of UM very much 2:46:03.480 --> 2:46:06.360 just like right wing. I'm gonna usually say Christian white 2:46:06.440 --> 2:46:10.520 males need like completely dominating this conversation as though, and 2:46:10.640 --> 2:46:13.199 they think they owe as a result own the space. 2:46:14.040 --> 2:46:16.040 Now it would be in their interest too, from the 2:46:16.080 --> 2:46:19.640 perspective of preserving firearms rights, to be inclusive and have 2:46:19.760 --> 2:46:22.920 everyone that believes in that a particular thing work together 2:46:23.000 --> 2:46:24.480 to make sure we don't lose a right, because the 2:46:24.600 --> 2:46:28.240 right unexercised is lost. Right. So even if I disagree 2:46:28.280 --> 2:46:30.880 with you on economic policy, but we agree on firearms right, 2:46:31.560 --> 2:46:33.640 we have an agreement there and that makes us somehow 2:46:33.760 --> 2:46:36.320 interestingly in the same space. We have something in common 2:46:36.760 --> 2:46:39.280 versus something diversive. And I think that part of the 2:46:39.320 --> 2:46:41.480 conversation at least within reason. I mean, there are people 2:46:41.480 --> 2:46:44.120 that are legitimately dangerous, you don't negotiate with them, but 2:46:44.240 --> 2:46:47.520 within reason, like agreeing on that topic means well, we've 2:46:47.520 --> 2:46:49.600 got something in common here. There's probably other things too, 2:46:50.200 --> 2:46:51.800 and maybe that could be a place where we kind 2:46:51.840 --> 2:46:54.800 of try to make that conversation better not worse. And 2:46:54.920 --> 2:46:58.480 so by being more open inclusive and saying, hey, there's 2:46:58.480 --> 2:47:00.280 people here and people there and here we are all 2:47:00.320 --> 2:47:04.320 together doing this together. Um, perhaps conversation can be had 2:47:04.360 --> 2:47:06.240 that's better than what we've been having. Maybe it can 2:47:06.280 --> 2:47:11.720 be actually a community builder versus a community destroyer. Yeah, yeah, 2:47:11.720 --> 2:47:14.720 I would like to see that. Um well, I think 2:47:14.760 --> 2:47:16.640 that's as good a note as any to uh to 2:47:16.760 --> 2:47:19.120 close out on Carl. You wanna you wanna throw your 2:47:19.160 --> 2:47:22.240 plug ables up before we were right out of here? Yeah? Sure, 2:47:22.320 --> 2:47:24.080 I mean so I run in range TV. You can 2:47:24.120 --> 2:47:28.359 find me an in range dot tv. Um completely viewer supported. 2:47:28.400 --> 2:47:29.920 Like I said, I don't want to sponsors or anything. 2:47:29.920 --> 2:47:31.920 I like. I like the idea of the people liking 2:47:32.040 --> 2:47:34.400 watching it support it. So if you like it cool, 2:47:34.480 --> 2:47:37.520 come check it out all over the place. YouTube bit 2:47:37.560 --> 2:47:41.000 shoot decentralized video contrat distributions. Another thing I believe in 2:47:41.040 --> 2:47:44.640 strong would the corporate oligarchy. But yeah, come out if 2:47:44.680 --> 2:47:46.480 you want to have a little bit different take on 2:47:46.560 --> 2:47:48.440 fire and stuff, or you're just in the confluence of 2:47:48.920 --> 2:47:51.040 civil rights and guns and stuff. Come check out in 2:47:51.200 --> 2:47:54.120 Range TV. I'd appreciate I always appreciate new viewers, and 2:47:54.400 --> 2:47:59.000 thanks for checking it out. Awesome. All right, um yeah, 2:47:59.320 --> 2:48:03.840 check out in Range TV, and uh check us out somewhere. 2:48:04.400 --> 2:48:06.880 We won't tell you where, but you can find us 2:48:06.879 --> 2:48:21.800 if you keep us in your hearts. C I Burnett 2:48:21.840 --> 2:48:25.640 ex all right, this is this is me Christopher Wong, 2:48:25.959 --> 2:48:29.240 realizing that I have done like sixteen consecutive actual real 2:48:29.320 --> 2:48:31.720 introductions and that if I keep doing them, everyone's gonna 2:48:31.720 --> 2:48:33.879 expect that I do a real introduction every time instead 2:48:33.920 --> 2:48:38.280 of like randomly yelling something. So yeah, we'll welcome to 2:48:38.320 --> 2:48:40.160 it could happen here. I am trying to make my 2:48:40.320 --> 2:48:46.280 job function as it should and not professionalize it. Um. 2:48:46.879 --> 2:48:49.760 And this is This is a podcast about things that 2:48:49.879 --> 2:48:53.440 are bad, but it's also occasionally a podcast about things 2:48:53.520 --> 2:48:56.400 that are good and how, in fact, there can be 2:48:56.520 --> 2:49:00.320 a society beyond this one and talk about some of 2:49:00.400 --> 2:49:02.240 the shades of what that could look like. I have 2:49:02.400 --> 2:49:05.200 with me the co host of the General Intellect Unit 2:49:05.280 --> 2:49:08.520 Kyle and June, which is a podcast on the emancipation network. 2:49:08.640 --> 2:49:11.359 That is I told this is the tagline the podcast 2:49:11.400 --> 2:49:15.960 of the Cybernetic Marxists. I am. I am very excited. Yeah, 2:49:16.120 --> 2:49:19.320 so it's really exciting to be here. Absolutely, thank you 2:49:19.400 --> 2:49:23.320 for coming on. Um yeah, I guess okay, we should 2:49:23.320 --> 2:49:28.920 start at the the very very beginning, because I don't 2:49:28.920 --> 2:49:35.400 think most people know any of this. What is cybernetics, right? Um? 2:49:35.640 --> 2:49:40.280 So cybernetics is I guess a term that comes from 2:49:41.400 --> 2:49:46.640 what is it the kaibernetes, right steering, Uh, the idea 2:49:46.680 --> 2:49:50.840 of steering a boat, um so, using your ore to 2:49:51.440 --> 2:49:57.760 navigate the waters. Um and so essentially it is a 2:49:58.720 --> 2:50:03.960 science of con troll and that sounds really scary, but 2:50:04.200 --> 2:50:09.519 what it means is that it's that kind of connection 2:50:09.800 --> 2:50:18.039 between the steers person, the oar, the boat, their body, 2:50:18.560 --> 2:50:22.520 and the water around them and getting all of those 2:50:22.720 --> 2:50:28.400 things in sync in such a way that the steers 2:50:28.480 --> 2:50:30.840 person is going where they want to go, the ship 2:50:31.080 --> 2:50:34.920 or the boat doesn't capsize and they don't lose the 2:50:35.000 --> 2:50:39.760 ore um. And so that's what control means. It's a 2:50:39.879 --> 2:50:48.440 kind of balancing a kind of connection between the organism 2:50:48.680 --> 2:50:51.240 and the environment in such a way that it can 2:50:51.320 --> 2:50:56.760 survive and thrive, and that's what cybernext is focused on. Yeah, 2:50:57.120 --> 2:51:00.440 the thing I love about them the Steersman, therefore, is 2:51:00.480 --> 2:51:03.120 that like it's all about it's control in the sense 2:51:03.160 --> 2:51:06.600 of regulation, but all also like very importantly in cybernetics, 2:51:06.640 --> 2:51:11.039 it's almost always self regulation UM because like the one 2:51:11.080 --> 2:51:15.400 of the kind of core principles again like the because 2:51:15.480 --> 2:51:17.920 the term usually calls to mind this like kind of 2:51:18.080 --> 2:51:23.040 terminator like UM, like cyber gothic kind of domination. It's 2:51:23.040 --> 2:51:25.160 actually not with the field is about at all. It's 2:51:25.240 --> 2:51:27.960 UM because one of the core insights of cybernetics is 2:51:28.000 --> 2:51:31.880 actually that any given system UM, the only thing that 2:51:31.920 --> 2:51:34.880 can really control it is itself because of the sheer 2:51:34.959 --> 2:51:40.280 complexity of systems. So that like UM, like the kind 2:51:40.320 --> 2:51:43.200 of like top down external domination of an organism that 2:51:43.280 --> 2:51:44.840 we all fear is kind of like actually, if you 2:51:44.840 --> 2:51:47.160 look at the cyber cybanetics literature, that's not not actually 2:51:47.280 --> 2:51:51.480 really possible because the the the the external controller would 2:51:51.480 --> 2:51:54.480 never have enough complexity to match what the organism is 2:51:54.520 --> 2:51:59.160 capable of. UM. And you know, organisms are self regulating 2:51:59.560 --> 2:52:03.560 system The steersman with his boat is a self regulating 2:52:03.600 --> 2:52:06.520 system that like regulates its upright position in the water 2:52:06.959 --> 2:52:10.800 and regulates its course that's directed towards its goal. Um. 2:52:11.480 --> 2:52:13.879 So it's it's that's why it's so important. I think. 2:52:13.879 --> 2:52:15.520 Well that's the why we think it's so important for 2:52:16.720 --> 2:52:18.760 the left and like people who are concerned with these 2:52:18.840 --> 2:52:23.040 like you know, visions of a politics of autonomy and 2:52:23.120 --> 2:52:25.600 liberation that really need to look at this stuff, because 2:52:25.600 --> 2:52:27.320 it turns out there kind of is a science of 2:52:27.520 --> 2:52:33.200 like autonomous, self guiding organic systems you know, sEH no 2:52:33.360 --> 2:52:38.039 terminator here, Yes, and yeah, I mean you know when 2:52:38.160 --> 2:52:44.680 you see uh, scary videos of militarized robots and they're 2:52:44.920 --> 2:52:50.920 learning to you know, jump and fire weapons and all 2:52:51.000 --> 2:52:54.680 that kind of stuff, there certainly is cybernetics involved there, 2:52:55.400 --> 2:53:00.600 but that is a kind of domain application of cybernetics. 2:53:00.720 --> 2:53:04.400 Rather than defining what cybernetics is, it's really kind of 2:53:04.959 --> 2:53:10.760 holistic systems thinking in general is what cybernetics is. Yeah. Yeah, 2:53:10.840 --> 2:53:13.000 that that's that's that's that's probably worth emphasizing, right that, 2:53:13.080 --> 2:53:16.480 Like um, um, cybernetics in some ways is kind of 2:53:16.600 --> 2:53:19.560 like out of fashion these days, like it it kind 2:53:19.560 --> 2:53:23.440 of evolved into systems thinking, and like, um, I guess 2:53:23.480 --> 2:53:25.440 a lot of its lessons got kind of absorbed in general, 2:53:25.560 --> 2:53:29.119 but we find there's great value in going back to them, 2:53:29.360 --> 2:53:32.080 the kind of originators and like focusing on that field. 2:53:33.040 --> 2:53:35.760 It's like we on the show. We got into the 2:53:35.800 --> 2:53:40.160 cybernetics angle by reading Andrew Pickering in his book The 2:53:40.200 --> 2:53:43.280 Cybernetic Brain, in which um, he kind of acknowledged that 2:53:43.360 --> 2:53:45.120 like there's he kind of split it into two, like 2:53:45.160 --> 2:53:48.080 there's American cybernetics like which had that kind of like 2:53:48.959 --> 2:53:52.160 um dour kind of military domination sort of flavor to 2:53:52.280 --> 2:53:54.280 us that like it's kind of an earned reputation there. 2:53:54.680 --> 2:53:57.800 But Pickering was more concerned with British cybernetics. Um. It's 2:53:57.879 --> 2:54:00.160 like a lot of British thinkers that and had a 2:54:00.280 --> 2:54:03.440 very different flavor there where it was more open ended. 2:54:03.520 --> 2:54:04.800 It was kind of had more of a focus on 2:54:04.920 --> 2:54:08.000 kind of liberation than like politics and stuff. And in fact, 2:54:08.040 --> 2:54:12.000 some of those like Gray Walter was like explicitly an anarchist, 2:54:12.160 --> 2:54:15.680 like wrote in Anarchist um like journals and stuff like that. Um, 2:54:15.920 --> 2:54:18.800 and for him, like those two things went hand in 2:54:18.840 --> 2:54:22.640 glove right like that like um liberatory politics as like 2:54:23.640 --> 2:54:27.680 um the politics of like human flourishing, like as human 2:54:27.800 --> 2:54:31.119 human beings, as autonomous units flourishing in their own contexts, 2:54:31.560 --> 2:54:34.120 and of like social systems that would enable that kind 2:54:34.120 --> 2:54:36.400 of flourishing. To him, that was just hand in glove 2:54:36.440 --> 2:54:38.640 with cyberan attics. There was no real distinction there. It 2:54:38.760 --> 2:54:40.320 was just like, yeah, these these two things fit each 2:54:40.360 --> 2:54:45.240 other perfectly, which you lose later with like general systems 2:54:45.240 --> 2:54:48.280 theory sort of stuff. You know, it's like, there's there's plenty. 2:54:48.360 --> 2:54:49.800 I don't know who am I thinking of here, like 2:54:49.879 --> 2:54:53.840 them that the Talipe, that guy with the like black 2:54:53.879 --> 2:54:56.320 Swan sort of stuff, Like he's big into systems and stuff, 2:54:56.360 --> 2:54:59.600 but like isn't so much um, isn't so much into 2:54:59.600 --> 2:55:01.840 the liberal Tory politics. I guess, you know, a lot 2:55:01.879 --> 2:55:03.640 of that angle is kind of lost. Yeah, And I 2:55:03.760 --> 2:55:05.440 think this is awesome. This is you know, this is 2:55:05.440 --> 2:55:09.080 sort of a product of, I guess, the broader ideological 2:55:09.200 --> 2:55:12.040 course that's going on while sucho Cybernie comes in and 2:55:12.080 --> 2:55:14.760 out of fashion. And I think I think we should 2:55:15.160 --> 2:55:17.680 go back a bit to the beginning to sort of 2:55:17.760 --> 2:55:21.440 situate this because I know, like when when I, like 2:55:21.520 --> 2:55:24.200 before I ever did any reading, let's ever next, Like 2:55:24.320 --> 2:55:26.240 my imediate assumption was that it was. It was you 2:55:26.280 --> 2:55:27.880 know this, this is the thing that was entirely just 2:55:28.879 --> 2:55:30.920 based off of computers, right that this is like this 2:55:31.080 --> 2:55:35.880 is and that's not really true from might understandtanding of it. 2:55:36.200 --> 2:55:38.959 Can we go back and sort of like talk about 2:55:39.000 --> 2:55:41.560 where this came from a bit and how it's sort 2:55:41.600 --> 2:55:50.360 of moves over this over certain sages. Yeah, yeah, I 2:55:50.720 --> 2:55:55.320 think you can kind of trace it back in it's 2:55:55.480 --> 2:56:05.120 sort of European origins to UM. You could probably say Hagel, uh, 2:56:05.440 --> 2:56:11.400 you know, his his move towards like UM understanding being 2:56:11.520 --> 2:56:15.200 not just a substance but as subject, I think is 2:56:15.680 --> 2:56:19.160 a move towards a kind of cybernetic understanding, where you 2:56:19.320 --> 2:56:27.960 understand the whole system as a holistic entity as opposed 2:56:28.000 --> 2:56:34.640 to just an individual interacting with an external environment. UM. 2:56:35.400 --> 2:56:39.160 And you can also see this come up in say 2:56:41.120 --> 2:56:46.720 there was a ecologist x skill in the German ecologists 2:56:47.040 --> 2:56:50.680 in the early twentieth century, I believe, who was trying 2:56:50.760 --> 2:56:55.640 to understand, you know, the organism in its environment. The 2:56:55.760 --> 2:56:59.920 sort of precursors to ecology can be seen as precursors 2:57:00.040 --> 2:57:06.400 to cybernetics UM. And then when you get to the 2:57:06.560 --> 2:57:11.680 kind of development of cybernetics as a science or as 2:57:11.760 --> 2:57:17.720 a discipline UM in the mid twentieth century. It's not 2:57:18.200 --> 2:57:26.720 exactly about computing, it's UM. It's more about balancing a 2:57:27.000 --> 2:57:33.560 machine with its environment. So UM. Sort of prototypical UM 2:57:34.840 --> 2:57:39.560 machine of this kind was the servo mechanism, which was 2:57:39.879 --> 2:57:45.640 used to help guide a like an anti aircraft gun 2:57:46.200 --> 2:57:50.400 in shooting down enemy aircraft, so making sure it tracks 2:57:50.520 --> 2:57:54.200 properly with the target and doesn't lose the target and 2:57:54.360 --> 2:57:59.600 is assisting the operator in operating the gun instead of 2:58:00.080 --> 2:58:06.760 us being a inanimate object that has trouble tracking what 2:58:06.920 --> 2:58:09.680 it's a very fast moving target. I mean, you can 2:58:09.720 --> 2:58:12.760 even think back to like the you know in World 2:58:12.800 --> 2:58:15.920 War One when they discovered, hey, we could actually like 2:58:16.080 --> 2:58:18.960 synchronize the timing of the propeller and the timing of 2:58:19.040 --> 2:58:21.520 our gun on the front of this plane so that 2:58:21.680 --> 2:58:25.320 our guns aren't destroying our propellers and shooting and we're 2:58:25.400 --> 2:58:28.640 we're we're shooting our own planes down with our guns 2:58:28.840 --> 2:58:34.200 when we're dog fighting, right Like it's uh, yeah, that's 2:58:34.200 --> 2:58:38.240 the system's understanding, right, So that's UM. That's that's Norbert 2:58:38.320 --> 2:58:41.320 Lenard Rice and working on the automated gun turret stuff, 2:58:41.320 --> 2:58:45.160 and that's he coins the term cybernetics to like um 2:58:45.440 --> 2:58:47.800 given name to the thing he was starting to discover. 2:58:47.959 --> 2:58:49.520 And it's like he was kind of pulling together a 2:58:49.560 --> 2:58:51.880 bunch of threats there, and like one of those kind 2:58:51.879 --> 2:58:55.440 of important insights is that like um, like they couldn't 2:58:55.560 --> 2:58:59.000 get an improvement in like targeting and accuracy without like 2:58:59.520 --> 2:59:02.039 basically making the gun turret and agent of its own 2:59:02.160 --> 2:59:04.880 that like and the like the turret and the gunner 2:59:04.920 --> 2:59:10.680 would be cooperative agents that in combination would achieve their goal. 2:59:10.800 --> 2:59:13.280 But like there was there was there's something strange and 2:59:13.280 --> 2:59:15.160 spooky about that. And I think that then the sort 2:59:15.200 --> 2:59:18.240 of feedback mechanism inside the turret gives it a sort 2:59:18.280 --> 2:59:21.640 of weird agency that combines with the agency of the 2:59:21.680 --> 2:59:27.080 gunner to like going to the whole system towards the goal. Um. Yes. 2:59:27.440 --> 2:59:31.320 And what it ends up becoming then is a kind 2:59:31.400 --> 2:59:39.480 of boundary space where the distinction between human and machine 2:59:40.320 --> 2:59:45.240 uh starts to become ambiguous because they both start to 2:59:45.320 --> 2:59:48.400 possess they're both understood to have a kind of agency, 2:59:48.920 --> 2:59:52.560 they're both understood to have kinds of like functions, and 2:59:54.480 --> 2:59:57.680 then you kind of get this sort of like human 2:59:57.800 --> 3:00:01.720 machine interface idea. And you can start to bring in 3:00:01.800 --> 3:00:05.680 all of these different ideas from like anthropology, from physiology, 3:00:06.280 --> 3:00:12.320 from math, from ecology, uh, and they all start to 3:00:12.680 --> 3:00:18.360 interact in this domain of cybernetics. And like the core, 3:00:18.520 --> 3:00:21.040 the core idea of them that kind of ties everything 3:00:21.080 --> 3:00:25.760 together is that of feedback. UM. So like weener realizes 3:00:25.800 --> 3:00:27.960 that what he needs to do achieve this goal is 3:00:28.200 --> 3:00:32.040 is a feedback mechanism, and that would is error correcting feedback, 3:00:32.160 --> 3:00:33.640 right like if the if the gun is slightly too 3:00:33.680 --> 3:00:35.600 fair to the left, it corrects itself right words and 3:00:35.640 --> 3:00:38.160 so on. UM. But that, as you said, that that 3:00:38.200 --> 3:00:40.080 connects across all sorts of things, right, Like you start 3:00:40.120 --> 3:00:45.959 to realize that's present everywhere in ecology, in neurology, in UM, 3:00:46.120 --> 3:00:49.520 like that learning is based on feedback, you know. So 3:00:50.160 --> 3:00:52.520 it's really funny to read to read Norbert Leaner like 3:00:52.640 --> 3:00:56.320 in the fifties basically describing what would become machine learning, 3:00:56.760 --> 3:00:58.760 and he's just like he just off the cuff, is like, yeah, 3:00:59.360 --> 3:01:01.600 like if you could if a machine could like UM, 3:01:02.240 --> 3:01:05.400 or if if any system could just like UM analyze 3:01:05.440 --> 3:01:08.119 its own performance and then feedback onto itself, it would 3:01:08.120 --> 3:01:09.720 it would learn any old pattern you wanted it to 3:01:10.040 --> 3:01:12.560 and he's like yeah, he turns out he was completely correct. 3:01:12.640 --> 3:01:15.520 And that's that's where kind of like gets into it. 3:01:15.560 --> 3:01:18.960 Like you get later thinkers like Ross Ashby, who was 3:01:19.440 --> 3:01:22.520 um and like other folks like in or in and 3:01:22.560 --> 3:01:25.240 around psychiatry, we were like really interested in how the 3:01:25.280 --> 3:01:28.000 brain worked. And that's that's the other thing that feeds 3:01:28.040 --> 3:01:32.440 into like cybernetics is like, um, it's it's why Pickering 3:01:32.480 --> 3:01:34.640 called his book the Cybernetic Brains, because like the brain 3:01:34.959 --> 3:01:38.160 and like nervous systems show up so much in that field, 3:01:38.320 --> 3:01:41.360 right that like the brain being a kind of learning 3:01:41.360 --> 3:01:45.039 and adapt an adapt adaptation machine attached to the body 3:01:45.120 --> 3:01:48.560 or whatever, and like, um, yeah, do you know there's 3:01:48.560 --> 3:01:51.800 there's something fascinating there, and like, um, the I mean 3:01:51.920 --> 3:01:54.080 there's something kind of possibly troubling and kind of melting 3:01:54.120 --> 3:01:57.280 down the distinctions between living organisms and machines or whatever, 3:01:57.360 --> 3:02:00.640 but like there's also something very compelled and just link 3:02:00.800 --> 3:02:04.160 recognizing the same patterns happening at all these different levels, 3:02:04.280 --> 3:02:08.440 right that link, Um, like you get similar behaviors and 3:02:08.520 --> 3:02:10.560 similar kind of outcomes, and then you know it turns 3:02:10.600 --> 3:02:12.320 out like you can kind of do a science on 3:02:12.400 --> 3:02:16.080 these things and and come up with an even better 3:02:16.120 --> 3:02:20.800 explanation to my frameworks based on your observations across many fields. Yes, 3:02:21.040 --> 3:02:25.800 and so it is in a sense about computers. But 3:02:26.000 --> 3:02:31.520 the computers are really just understood to act like a 3:02:31.720 --> 3:02:36.680 kind of brain, and that's connected to a nervous system 3:02:37.040 --> 3:02:41.360 which is connected to you know, like actuators of some kinds, 3:02:41.440 --> 3:02:44.400 some kinds of like machines that actually do things in 3:02:44.480 --> 3:02:52.640 the world. So it's not about like say computer science specifically, 3:02:52.879 --> 3:02:55.760 it's more about, like, well, computers are a useful way 3:02:56.400 --> 3:03:02.280 to do cybernetic design because as they can act as 3:03:02.320 --> 3:03:06.280 a control system and they're flexible. It's not that this 3:03:06.560 --> 3:03:11.200 is about computers really. Yeah, absolutely, And like that you 3:03:11.240 --> 3:03:13.000 brought you brought up something very important there that like, 3:03:13.240 --> 3:03:16.720 um in all cases of like cybernetics, like the systems 3:03:16.760 --> 3:03:19.480 that we're considering are not like isolated like braining a 3:03:19.520 --> 3:03:22.120 box kind of things. They're all things that are directly 3:03:22.200 --> 3:03:26.160 engaged with a world, um Like. So it's it's not 3:03:26.320 --> 3:03:30.280 that kind of like monadic kind of rationalism of like 3:03:30.520 --> 3:03:32.960 computation just happening in a box somewhere and like per 3:03:33.120 --> 3:03:36.320 perfect intelligence or that kind of kind of stuff. These 3:03:36.360 --> 3:03:39.000 are always, like the separantations are always working with systems 3:03:39.040 --> 3:03:43.880 that were engaged in real time emergence situations um. And 3:03:43.959 --> 3:03:46.840 because of that, they rapidly kind of like acknowledge that 3:03:48.360 --> 3:03:50.880 for so many of these important like systems, the only 3:03:50.920 --> 3:03:52.360 way to figure out what it's going to do is 3:03:52.400 --> 3:03:55.920 to let it do it um because you can't like 3:03:56.120 --> 3:03:59.160 pre compute all the possible outcomes you know, of these 3:03:59.240 --> 3:04:04.280 like very sticky and complex real world situations, the best 3:04:04.320 --> 3:04:05.640 way to figure out what it's going to do is 3:04:05.720 --> 3:04:08.680 to let it do it and watch. Yes. And I 3:04:08.760 --> 3:04:11.400 think I think that's an interesting sort of like if 3:04:11.400 --> 3:04:12.720 if you look at where a lot of the sort 3:04:12.720 --> 3:04:19.200 of like techno fetishist like social attempts to sort of 3:04:19.240 --> 3:04:22.119 like manipulates side the technology have gone, It's like, yeah, 3:04:22.200 --> 3:04:25.200 you get like like blockchain smart contracts, and it's like 3:04:25.720 --> 3:04:29.280 the blockchain smart contract is like, Okay, we are going 3:04:29.360 --> 3:04:32.480 to think of literally everything that could possibly happen and 3:04:32.560 --> 3:04:34.960 attempt to put it in like a very small amount 3:04:35.000 --> 3:04:38.200 of code. And if anything like literally anything at all 3:04:38.320 --> 3:04:43.520 happens that you know that we didn't expect, where now 3:04:43.640 --> 3:04:45.880 everyone is now screwed because we have just made this 3:04:45.959 --> 3:04:47.400 thing beautable and put it in such a way that 3:04:47.400 --> 3:04:49.920 we can't change it. So I think that, yeah, that's 3:04:49.959 --> 3:04:52.960 a I think this is a useful sort of I 3:04:53.000 --> 3:04:56.119 mean corrective just just in the way that we've we've 3:04:56.200 --> 3:04:58.280 we've now like like we've gone backwards, like we've we've 3:04:58.280 --> 3:05:00.720 gotten into this place where you instead of we need 3:05:00.760 --> 3:05:02.120 to let these systems play out, we need to let 3:05:02.160 --> 3:05:07.000 them control themselves, We've gotten to like we think that 3:05:07.160 --> 3:05:10.640 we can actually just sort of like you know, turn 3:05:11.480 --> 3:05:14.320 turn the entire system into code that we can break 3:05:14.360 --> 3:05:17.400 ahead of time and have you know, the basis of 3:05:17.440 --> 3:05:20.160 some sort of social system off of Yeah, I mean 3:05:20.240 --> 3:05:22.240 it's I think it's something that like the serpetitions and 3:05:22.320 --> 3:05:25.320 like maybe Pickering would described as like a kind of 3:05:25.360 --> 3:05:29.320 perversity of modern caught like the modern mindset like that 3:05:29.480 --> 3:05:33.760 that kind of like rational like um kind of mindset 3:05:33.840 --> 3:05:36.560 right like um, And like to the sarpetitions that that 3:05:36.600 --> 3:05:38.840 whole thing with like the blockchain stuff will be just 3:05:39.000 --> 3:05:42.320 truly laughable because it's immediate, it's immediately obvious to them 3:05:42.440 --> 3:05:46.560 that the problem there's like okay, proposing we're going to 3:05:46.680 --> 3:05:48.760 use a blockchain to regulate some sort of social process 3:05:48.879 --> 3:05:51.160 or whatever, smart contracts, whatever, and it's like that thing 3:05:51.240 --> 3:05:54.680 has nowhere near the fidelity required to regulate social processes. 3:05:54.680 --> 3:05:59.680 Because social processes are unimaginably complex and have just incredible variety. 3:06:00.080 --> 3:06:01.920 There's a there's a there's like a law that's at 3:06:01.959 --> 3:06:05.160 the House of Cybernattics called Ashby's law of requisite variety, 3:06:05.720 --> 3:06:09.320 And in short, it basically states that given a system, um, 3:06:10.480 --> 3:06:13.480 the only thing that's really capable of regulating is regulating 3:06:13.520 --> 3:06:18.400 it is itself, because a regulator needs as much variety 3:06:18.480 --> 3:06:20.680 as the thing it's regulating if it's gonna like actually 3:06:20.720 --> 3:06:24.320 succeeded it um. And so that's that's the kind of 3:06:24.360 --> 3:06:27.920 thing that nudges everyone towards like like when you get 3:06:27.959 --> 3:06:30.240 to someone like Stafford Beer is his whole model of 3:06:30.360 --> 3:06:34.680 like organization pushes all a lot of the intelligence downwards 3:06:34.720 --> 3:06:37.080 to the to the bottom layers, because there is basically 3:06:37.120 --> 3:06:39.840 the people on the ground on the shop floor are 3:06:39.959 --> 3:06:41.880 the people who are best informed to actually deal with 3:06:41.920 --> 3:06:44.959 their own situation. And that's that sounds like a banal observation, 3:06:45.040 --> 3:06:47.120 but like it for Beer, that was actually quite a 3:06:47.120 --> 3:06:50.080 step forward to like just admit that like trying to 3:06:50.520 --> 3:06:54.000 trying to like in his context, was like often the 3:06:54.120 --> 3:06:57.320 organization of a firm, like at our company, Like trying 3:06:57.400 --> 3:07:00.600 to manage a company from the boardroom is just fucking dechrius, Like, 3:07:01.440 --> 3:07:04.560 no nobody there has enough information to act on. They're 3:07:04.600 --> 3:07:07.240 all dumbasses anyway. So for Beer, it was just a 3:07:07.600 --> 3:07:09.280 like this is where it starts get interesting and it 3:07:09.360 --> 3:07:11.840 connects to the politics, right that, Like for one of 3:07:11.879 --> 3:07:15.480 these scientists just observing reality and like you know, using 3:07:16.200 --> 3:07:19.359 you know, pretty pretty good stray intuitions and like scientific frameworks, 3:07:19.560 --> 3:07:21.120 just looking at it and going like, oh, it is 3:07:21.200 --> 3:07:23.640 obviously the case that the best way for society to 3:07:23.760 --> 3:07:28.160 organize is bottom up self organization. Um. And that that 3:07:28.280 --> 3:07:30.760 like it's not just a moral point, it's actually a 3:07:30.800 --> 3:07:34.480 technical point as well. Then like, um, these these top down, 3:07:34.600 --> 3:07:39.160 bureaucratic kind of micro tyrannies are not only morally objectionable, 3:07:39.200 --> 3:07:41.800 they're also technically inferior to the kind of like cyber 3:07:41.840 --> 3:07:44.840 communism we want to institute. Yeah, and I have like 3:07:45.000 --> 3:07:47.480 one off one of my what if one of my 3:07:47.800 --> 3:07:50.440 favorite stories about So I worked as a maintenance worker 3:07:50.440 --> 3:07:53.040 for a while and one day my boss was like, 3:07:53.080 --> 3:07:55.240 there was some problem with the sink, and my boss 3:07:55.360 --> 3:07:56.680 was like, no, we don't need the plumbers. I can 3:07:56.720 --> 3:07:59.119 do this. And so he goes in there and it's 3:07:59.120 --> 3:08:00.520 it's what it's like. It's it's like a sink in 3:08:00.560 --> 3:08:02.120 like a building, right, So it's it's just one of 3:08:02.160 --> 3:08:03.880 those things where there's like a pipe that connects to 3:08:03.959 --> 3:08:06.320 the top of the sink to like the wall. And 3:08:06.480 --> 3:08:08.440 he goes, Okay, here, look at this. I'm gonna I'm 3:08:08.440 --> 3:08:10.000 gonna turn this valve and this is going to turn 3:08:10.040 --> 3:08:12.560 the water off. And what he instead does is he 3:08:12.640 --> 3:08:16.680 take he takes the pipe off of the wall and 3:08:16.959 --> 3:08:20.000 just like a torrent of water is just now shooting 3:08:20.040 --> 3:08:21.960 out of this pipe because he has removed the thing. 3:08:22.240 --> 3:08:26.080 He's removed the pipe from the wall. This is you know, 3:08:27.160 --> 3:08:30.080 this is this is why I think like, yeah, go 3:08:30.520 --> 3:08:32.160 this this, this, this this, you know this this is 3:08:32.920 --> 3:08:36.360 like a particularly funny example of how these sort of 3:08:36.400 --> 3:08:39.280 top down management systems. And this guy like like used 3:08:39.320 --> 3:08:41.000 to be a maintenance guy, right, but he just like 3:08:41.240 --> 3:08:44.360 most a plumber and so you know, and he accepts 3:08:44.400 --> 3:08:45.640 into it and he's like oh no, no, no, no, no, 3:08:45.720 --> 3:08:47.480 hold on, I know I know how this system works, 3:08:47.520 --> 3:08:50.160 it's gonna be fine. And it just there's a guys. 3:08:50.480 --> 3:08:52.320 The guys are of water has so much force. It's 3:08:52.360 --> 3:08:54.920 like it's like pushing our tool cart across the room. 3:08:58.680 --> 3:09:05.040 It's like a fighter hydrants. Now I wanted to I 3:09:05.120 --> 3:09:07.200 guess Beers is an interesting way to go to go 3:09:07.440 --> 3:09:09.800 into the sort of the politics of what this actually 3:09:09.920 --> 3:09:12.040 looks like. Do you want to talk about and I 3:09:12.120 --> 3:09:14.800 know I briefly talked about this in an episode in 3:09:14.840 --> 3:09:17.480 The Liberalism while back, But do you want to go 3:09:17.560 --> 3:09:20.120 into sort of more detail into what Beers was up 3:09:20.160 --> 3:09:26.320 to and the eventually failed attempt, because of military coup, 3:09:26.640 --> 3:09:30.840 to try to implement like a cybernetic system for organizing 3:09:32.000 --> 3:09:38.640 essentially an economy. Yeah sure, Um yeah, So Stafford Beer 3:09:39.920 --> 3:09:47.039 was a UM management consultant UM he and a cyberneticition. 3:09:48.160 --> 3:09:53.480 He got his start sort of doing operations research UM, 3:09:55.320 --> 3:10:01.200 which is kind of a precursor to cybernetics UM that 3:10:01.440 --> 3:10:08.760 is kind of like interested in logistics and organizing systems 3:10:09.560 --> 3:10:14.040 UM in the British military UM in World War Two. 3:10:15.280 --> 3:10:17.880 And then he came out of that and became a 3:10:18.000 --> 3:10:25.840 corporate UH consultant for Operations Research and Management UM and 3:10:26.040 --> 3:10:33.440 so in working in the corporate world. Um, he saw 3:10:33.800 --> 3:10:37.920 all of the things that were really screwed up with 3:10:38.280 --> 3:10:44.200 the status quo UM way of doing business and of 3:10:44.480 --> 3:10:49.080 organizing things. You know, the way that autocratic power of 3:10:49.280 --> 3:10:55.480 management creates all kinds of ridiculous problems, The way that 3:10:56.320 --> 3:11:00.320 managing organizations according to org charts, which are there to 3:11:00.720 --> 3:11:05.800 assign blame more than anything else, creates all kinds of perversities. 3:11:06.640 --> 3:11:13.160 The way that organizations fail to adapt to their environments 3:11:13.280 --> 3:11:17.879 because they get into these kinds of strange neuroses um. 3:11:19.120 --> 3:11:21.000 And you know, just sort of going through all of 3:11:21.120 --> 3:11:28.840 that and more often than not being unable to intervene 3:11:29.080 --> 3:11:35.240 in an effective way uh to um address these problems, 3:11:35.840 --> 3:11:40.199 and just sort of like seeing how these little instances 3:11:40.480 --> 3:11:47.360 of perverse corporate culture are indicative of the broader problems 3:11:47.920 --> 3:11:53.160 of our society as a whole and of capitalism, right. Um. 3:11:54.120 --> 3:11:58.600 And so you know, he had a basis from his 3:11:58.760 --> 3:12:03.160 time in India during the Second World War in uh 3:12:03.320 --> 3:12:06.800 kind of like contra uh kind of like you know, 3:12:07.000 --> 3:12:13.879 Eastern or specifically Indian um, spirituality, yoga, all this kind 3:12:13.959 --> 3:12:17.439 of stuff. So he kind of had a cult countercultural 3:12:17.600 --> 3:12:21.080 side to his personality. Um, and he was always doing 3:12:21.240 --> 3:12:26.040 tinkering strange experiments with cybernetics. He wasn't just the straight 3:12:26.120 --> 3:12:30.760 laced corporate guy, uh. But it was a combination of 3:12:30.879 --> 3:12:38.160 that sort of countercultural background with his growing frustration with 3:12:38.400 --> 3:12:43.760 corporate systems that led him to start to develop ideas 3:12:43.800 --> 3:12:46.600 about how things could be different. And this kind of 3:12:46.720 --> 3:12:51.200 meshed up with the thoughts that were happening in Chile 3:12:52.320 --> 3:12:57.880 during the Chilean Revolution in the early seventies. Um. So 3:12:58.080 --> 3:13:01.840 they reached out to him uh to come and help 3:13:01.959 --> 3:13:05.920 out with organizing their economy as they were undergoing this 3:13:06.120 --> 3:13:11.960 revolutionary process of trying to sort of throw off the 3:13:12.200 --> 3:13:18.400 shackles of imperialist dependency and create a society that was 3:13:19.280 --> 3:13:24.600 focused on the flourishing of workers, uh, and of society 3:13:24.680 --> 3:13:26.680 as a whole, as opposed to one that was based 3:13:26.720 --> 3:13:30.760 on sort of you know, resource extraction where everything flows 3:13:30.800 --> 3:13:35.240 to the top. Yeah. You want to explain some more 3:13:35.280 --> 3:13:40.280 about how that went well? So, um, yeah, it it 3:13:40.920 --> 3:13:42.720 went well and then it went badly, I guess. Um. 3:13:42.959 --> 3:13:45.760 But from from from the reading we've done and from 3:13:45.760 --> 3:13:50.200 our research, it seems like if basically, if the if 3:13:50.280 --> 3:13:53.480 the US hadn't sent in the fascist to kill them all. 3:13:53.879 --> 3:13:56.080 Um this this would have worked like it was working, 3:13:56.480 --> 3:13:58.520 and it was that the project was actually going pretty 3:13:58.560 --> 3:14:02.480 well explained pret what like I think it becomes it's 3:14:02.480 --> 3:14:05.160 called product cybers but what what exactly, like what was 3:14:05.200 --> 3:14:09.440 it doing? So? Um So, like Beer's big kind of 3:14:09.520 --> 3:14:13.560 innovation is what we call the viable system model or VSM, 3:14:14.160 --> 3:14:16.800 and it's a model that's, um it's a model for 3:14:16.879 --> 3:14:20.600 these like autonomous social systems that is kind of taking 3:14:20.720 --> 3:14:22.840 It's not I wouldn't say it's entirely based on like 3:14:23.040 --> 3:14:24.959 the structure of the human body, but it's like taking 3:14:25.080 --> 3:14:28.760 a lot of lessons from biology and neurology and neuroscience 3:14:28.959 --> 3:14:32.120 and and cybernetics and just kind of meshing them alltogether. 3:14:32.280 --> 3:14:35.800 Um So, basically, like it's like if your body is 3:14:35.840 --> 3:14:37.920 basically a bunch of autonomous organs that all take care 3:14:37.959 --> 3:14:40.519 of their own business, plus a nervous system that synchronizes 3:14:40.560 --> 3:14:44.480 them and unifies them into a workable hole, then you 3:14:44.520 --> 3:14:47.200 can kind of see the whole system as having this 3:14:47.320 --> 3:14:51.200 kind of mixture of vertical and horizontal aspects. Like on 3:14:51.320 --> 3:14:53.680 the one hand, it has this horizontal aspect where the 3:14:54.400 --> 3:14:58.040 autonomous like system one units are are well autonomous, more 3:14:58.080 --> 3:15:00.680 or less, like the heart takes harrish, takes care of 3:15:00.760 --> 3:15:02.480 its own thing, the lungs take care of their own thing. 3:15:02.760 --> 3:15:06.359 But then the nervous system meshes them together in layers 3:15:06.440 --> 3:15:10.360 so that it can say, oh, hold on too much oxygen, 3:15:11.160 --> 3:15:13.640 dial it down a bit, and then the organs responds 3:15:13.720 --> 3:15:15.880 dynamically to those those signals. Right, So it's kind of 3:15:15.879 --> 3:15:19.240 like up down feedback loops right where them the lower 3:15:19.360 --> 3:15:22.000 levels of the system are the smart bits that are 3:15:22.040 --> 3:15:25.840 doing all the important work, but there's this supporting infrastructure 3:15:26.520 --> 3:15:29.440 of the nervous system and the brain that unifies the 3:15:29.440 --> 3:15:32.800 whole thing and keeps it all on the rails um so, 3:15:33.320 --> 3:15:35.720 and importantly, it's a kind of recursive model. So like 3:15:35.920 --> 3:15:39.480 a human being is an autonomous unit, and then that 3:15:39.720 --> 3:15:42.480 it's that unit is composed of more autonomous units, like 3:15:42.480 --> 3:15:44.800 the organs and the muscles, and then each of those 3:15:44.920 --> 3:15:47.480 is composed of cells which are autonomous units, and then 3:15:48.000 --> 3:15:50.360 you know, so on. But like that latter goes upwards 3:15:50.400 --> 3:15:52.879 as well, so that like a team is an autonomous 3:15:52.959 --> 3:15:57.000 unit composed of human beings. A firm, or like a 3:15:57.080 --> 3:16:01.000 department is a autonomous unit composed of team. A firm 3:16:01.080 --> 3:16:04.720 is composed of departments like a sector as composed of firms, 3:16:05.280 --> 3:16:09.000 and it's the same kind of structure at each layer. Um. 3:16:10.320 --> 3:16:13.200 So that the kind of upside there is that like, um, 3:16:13.680 --> 3:16:16.040 you don't like you kind of have a unit fairly 3:16:16.320 --> 3:16:18.760 unifying like set of principles and like a science for 3:16:18.879 --> 3:16:22.560 doing this kind of like co coordination of autonomous units 3:16:23.120 --> 3:16:26.200 at every level, at every every layer of society. So 3:16:26.400 --> 3:16:29.800 like in principle, the sort of like the Serbanetic principles 3:16:29.840 --> 3:16:34.560 that get applied to cohering members of a team are 3:16:34.680 --> 3:16:37.119 the same story principles that get applied to like sectors 3:16:37.160 --> 3:16:40.720 in an economy. Um, with the same kind of you know, 3:16:41.000 --> 3:16:43.480 bottom up kind of feedback going on as well. Um. 3:16:44.680 --> 3:16:49.040 So Stafford was an invite to Chile to by the 3:16:49.200 --> 3:16:51.120 all end a government in so that that was like 3:16:51.760 --> 3:16:55.360 v right, Um that that that election happens. So he 3:16:55.520 --> 3:17:01.680 arrived in late vent I think, um, I mean certain 3:17:01.720 --> 3:17:04.080 on the timeline, but we're looking at those those first 3:17:04.160 --> 3:17:06.600 few years of the seventies as as the time when 3:17:06.680 --> 3:17:09.480 this is happening. Yeah, yeah, I d elected in setting 3:17:09.520 --> 3:17:12.080 n seventy. Yeah, so it's towards the end of that 3:17:12.240 --> 3:17:15.120 year that he's he's invited and he's basically kind of 3:17:15.160 --> 3:17:17.240 given the task of like, hey, do all this stuff 3:17:17.360 --> 3:17:20.280 but with this entire economy, and he's like, yeah, sure, cool. 3:17:20.879 --> 3:17:25.120 UM so puts together Project cybersen UM And there's kind 3:17:25.120 --> 3:17:27.040 of long story there of like and them building out 3:17:27.080 --> 3:17:28.840 this kind of infrastructure and like it's it's all highly 3:17:28.879 --> 3:17:33.600 experimental UM and highly tensive. Like they one of the 3:17:33.640 --> 3:17:35.640 big problems they run into is that like they don't 3:17:35.680 --> 3:17:38.520 have very much in the way of like hardware, especially 3:17:38.560 --> 3:17:41.440 because they're under embargo. So they had like, um a 3:17:41.560 --> 3:17:44.120 pretty what what at the time was a pretty crafty 3:17:44.160 --> 3:17:48.600 old mainframe that they ran the around the software on UM. 3:17:49.360 --> 3:17:52.440 But like step step one was like UM installing this 3:17:52.520 --> 3:17:55.360 like huge communications network amongst all the factories and UM 3:17:55.640 --> 3:17:57.520 like setting up like the workers committees and stuff and 3:17:57.520 --> 3:18:00.560 would feed information into us. And they would kind again 3:18:00.600 --> 3:18:03.600 this like feedback thing where you kind of take signals 3:18:03.680 --> 3:18:07.200 from the economy, integrate them, and then go, oh, you're 3:18:07.240 --> 3:18:10.119 producing too much steel, route some of your product over 3:18:10.160 --> 3:18:12.920 to this this factory and it will be better used there. 3:18:13.040 --> 3:18:15.160 And then you know, you guys over there turn up 3:18:15.160 --> 3:18:18.480 this dial. You turn them down this dial. So and 3:18:18.600 --> 3:18:21.400 then if that plan doesn't quite work out, then you've 3:18:21.400 --> 3:18:24.400 got another layer of feedback tomorrow to say, Okay, that 3:18:24.480 --> 3:18:26.640 plan didn't quite work here's an adjusted plan. So it's 3:18:26.959 --> 3:18:30.680 it's just like both bottom up and top down sort 3:18:30.720 --> 3:18:33.800 of loop of feedback. That's like I think that the 3:18:33.879 --> 3:18:39.720 phrase pickering is is reciprocal adaptation, where at the economy 3:18:39.840 --> 3:18:42.160 and its firms and its workers are all kind of 3:18:42.160 --> 3:18:43.880 adapting to each other in real time in a kind 3:18:43.920 --> 3:18:50.720 of in a in a full system. Um uh yeah, anything, 3:18:51.440 --> 3:18:55.400 no that I mean, that's that's essentially what Cyberson was. 3:18:55.720 --> 3:19:03.080 It was a system designed too largely, I think, at 3:19:03.160 --> 3:19:13.160 first supplement the market, although Beer later realizes that like, actually, 3:19:13.280 --> 3:19:15.280 if you have a good system of this kind, you 3:19:15.360 --> 3:19:22.920 probably don't need a market. Um. But essentially it was like, Okay, 3:19:23.800 --> 3:19:28.040 our economy has been one that has been built around 3:19:28.240 --> 3:19:34.960 dependence too, uh, you know, especially the United States, and 3:19:35.040 --> 3:19:37.040 it's been organized in that way, and we need to 3:19:37.200 --> 3:19:41.560 reorganize the economy both to promote the well being of 3:19:41.640 --> 3:19:45.560 the workers, the autonomy of the workers, realized the ideals 3:19:45.600 --> 3:19:48.840 of socialism in that way, and also to create a 3:19:48.920 --> 3:19:54.840 system that is less dependent on those existing structures of imperialism, 3:19:55.440 --> 3:20:00.960 and so having this reciprocal adaptation um, having systems in 3:20:01.080 --> 3:20:06.520 place to connect things that were previously disconnected would allow 3:20:06.600 --> 3:20:09.920 you to move in that way of increasing autonomy and 3:20:10.080 --> 3:20:14.160 increasing freedom Um. And that was generally the idea of 3:20:14.320 --> 3:20:19.760 cyber sin Um. Yes, yeah, And there was something very 3:20:19.800 --> 3:20:23.440 interesting like when we were reading the reissue of his 3:20:23.480 --> 3:20:24.960 book Brain of the Firm, where he has a section 3:20:25.000 --> 3:20:29.040 at the end that that documents this whole experience in Chile. Um. 3:20:29.280 --> 3:20:32.240 There's a really interesting parents where towards the end of 3:20:32.240 --> 3:20:35.000 it he's like, and this is like getting up towards 3:20:35.080 --> 3:20:38.080 the coupe where he's like, um, he and the other 3:20:38.240 --> 3:20:40.880 cybersin operatives like on the people are putting this together 3:20:41.280 --> 3:20:43.959 realize that like the workers and like people in towns 3:20:44.000 --> 3:20:47.160 are like just on their own, just like using this 3:20:47.560 --> 3:20:51.320 stuff and these kind of principles to just like abolish 3:20:51.400 --> 3:20:56.640 the value form basically like but notably without the involvement 3:20:56.680 --> 3:20:59.920 from above, like as in Beer and Company, stumble upon 3:21:00.080 --> 3:21:02.720 this just happening where they're like, oh my god, they're 3:21:02.760 --> 3:21:05.000 just they're just dismantling the market, and it's like it's 3:21:05.040 --> 3:21:08.600 all just kind of happening, and that's there was something 3:21:08.680 --> 3:21:11.880 really wonderful to that. Then like it it indicated like 3:21:12.040 --> 3:21:14.640 there was there really wants something to it that like 3:21:15.879 --> 3:21:20.039 you could like as in people working, people could use 3:21:20.120 --> 3:21:23.040 these tools and this like new way of organizing themselves. 3:21:23.600 --> 3:21:28.800 Two just like liquidate market relations and wage relations like 3:21:28.920 --> 3:21:32.520 spun spontaneously. But it's a spontaneity that's that's not really 3:21:33.360 --> 3:21:36.000 it does. It's it feels very different from the kind 3:21:36.000 --> 3:21:39.720 of spontaneity you often get in like the way leftist 3:21:39.760 --> 3:21:41.480 sort of like anarchists talk about it often, like the 3:21:41.600 --> 3:21:43.920 kind of spontaneity is like a magical sort of thing 3:21:43.959 --> 3:21:46.000 that is like where freedom just arrives from out of nowhere. 3:21:46.040 --> 3:21:49.360 But this this was like installing infrastructure to enable freedom 3:21:49.360 --> 3:21:52.440 and then it actually kind of happening until the fascists 3:21:52.440 --> 3:21:54.720 showed up. You know. Yeah, what I think is really 3:21:54.800 --> 3:21:58.000 interesting about it is that so you know, you have 3:21:58.240 --> 3:21:59.920 you have like you have this sort of central control 3:22:00.000 --> 3:22:02.080 center from which a lot of stuff is being run. 3:22:02.200 --> 3:22:05.560 But you know, yeah, it's it's it's it's it's a 3:22:05.640 --> 3:22:09.680 weird system because it's trying to link together like a 3:22:09.800 --> 3:22:12.280 lot of different kinds of firms like you have something 3:22:12.320 --> 3:22:13.960 saying in private firms, but you have a lot of 3:22:14.040 --> 3:22:15.400 you have a lot of state run firms. You also 3:22:15.440 --> 3:22:18.039 have firms that throughout this whole process, people like workers 3:22:18.120 --> 3:22:20.920 just taking over factories. They're setting up these sort of 3:22:21.040 --> 3:22:25.560 like callum industrial cordons. I think I'm remembering my Spanish 3:22:25.640 --> 3:22:28.400 rights like yeah, they they you know, they start setting 3:22:28.480 --> 3:22:30.520 up their own institutions, and it's it's this becomes this 3:22:30.600 --> 3:22:33.320 way of sort of like networking these groups together. And 3:22:34.400 --> 3:22:36.119 the thing that's the other thing thing is it's interesting 3:22:36.200 --> 3:22:37.480 is you know, so you have you have them on 3:22:37.520 --> 3:22:40.280 the one hand, like just getting rid of markets and 3:22:40.320 --> 3:22:43.240 going like okay, well we can just coordinate production through 3:22:43.360 --> 3:22:45.640 this and like not have markets. And then the second 3:22:45.680 --> 3:22:48.520 thing they do is it's the freedom immediately becomes political 3:22:49.160 --> 3:22:51.000 in the sense that like yeah, like one of one 3:22:51.000 --> 3:22:52.920 of the things they do they there that that's what's 3:22:52.959 --> 3:22:55.200 going on in this period is that and there's Chile 3:22:55.400 --> 3:22:59.600 has a very very right wing like it's basically like 3:22:59.680 --> 3:23:01.760 the even today it's like it's like really like one 3:23:01.840 --> 3:23:03.920 of the only like union like huge unions left in 3:23:04.000 --> 3:23:06.480 Chile is the truckers unions and those guys are extremely 3:23:06.560 --> 3:23:08.920 right wing there in this period of being backed by 3:23:08.959 --> 3:23:11.240 the CIA. They're being trained by f l c i 3:23:11.400 --> 3:23:16.280 O as I say, like every episode, but like yeah, 3:23:16.320 --> 3:23:19.160 and and they're you know, they're intentionally doing strikes, trying 3:23:19.160 --> 3:23:21.920 to oversaw the government by blocking production, and you know, 3:23:22.160 --> 3:23:24.840 like the workers are like, Okay, hold on, we can 3:23:24.879 --> 3:23:28.440 just use this symenetic system to figure out where these 3:23:28.560 --> 3:23:31.720 blocks are, figured out where materials needs to move through, 3:23:31.879 --> 3:23:33.840 and we can just you know, we can just stop 3:23:33.879 --> 3:23:36.280 the kind of revolution. We can just sort of like 3:23:37.360 --> 3:23:38.680 we can we can just we can just fight our 3:23:38.720 --> 3:23:41.320 way through it. And and it's interesting, is like this 3:23:41.440 --> 3:23:44.840 happens and so then that that like the the original 3:23:44.920 --> 3:23:47.520 plan of using sort of of using these truckers is 3:23:47.560 --> 3:23:50.680 like the sort of right wing like the first attempt fails, 3:23:50.800 --> 3:23:53.040 and once that fails, it's like they have to go 3:23:53.120 --> 3:23:59.360 to the military, and the coup eventually works. It's hard 3:23:59.360 --> 3:24:02.520 to resist who outright, isn't it. M Yeah, Yeah. The 3:24:02.600 --> 3:24:04.800 thing with the truckers strike is not like yeah, it's 3:24:04.879 --> 3:24:06.880 you can very well imagine like the CIA and stuff 3:24:06.920 --> 3:24:08.520 going into a thinking that this is what we'll do. 3:24:08.600 --> 3:24:11.400 That's right, this will sell it up but not realizing 3:24:11.480 --> 3:24:14.800 that the workers actually had in their hands a like 3:24:15.760 --> 3:24:19.240 vastly more sophisticated system for out maneuvering them. Yeah, and 3:24:19.600 --> 3:24:22.320 that system works like a charm, like like clockwork, just 3:24:22.440 --> 3:24:25.080 like and even like you really accounts from this thing, 3:24:25.160 --> 3:24:28.360 like both in eating Medina's cybernetic revelation areas and in 3:24:28.440 --> 3:24:30.840 Beer's on account And there's like the sense that was 3:24:30.840 --> 3:24:33.080 actually kind of spooky and weird. But I'm like even 3:24:33.120 --> 3:24:35.240 the people involved didn't quite expect it to work out 3:24:35.280 --> 3:24:37.360 that way, and that like they were surprised at how 3:24:37.400 --> 3:24:39.400 effective it is, but that it gets back to the 3:24:39.480 --> 3:24:43.960 core of cyberneticscent like feedback is weirdly effective at getting 3:24:44.000 --> 3:24:47.360 things done. You know, these like highly tuned feedback systems, 3:24:47.959 --> 3:24:50.640 they give you a lot of power to out maneuver 3:24:50.879 --> 3:24:53.920 this comebacks, you know. Yeah, And I think in some sense, 3:24:54.040 --> 3:24:57.320 like this is like people talk a lot about Chile 3:24:57.480 --> 3:24:59.400 is sort of like the sort of foreclosed future of 3:24:59.520 --> 3:25:01.600 like an elect told democratic socialism. But I don't think 3:25:01.640 --> 3:25:04.040 that was the potential of the moment. The potential of 3:25:04.080 --> 3:25:07.640 the moment was this. And it's interesting to me that 3:25:07.920 --> 3:25:12.199 well because Beers kind of traces out a political history 3:25:13.240 --> 3:25:16.200 that never quite happened, which is so okay. One of 3:25:16.240 --> 3:25:19.040 the one of the sort of big political trends over 3:25:19.080 --> 3:25:20.880 the course of the twenties century is you have all 3:25:21.000 --> 3:25:24.039 these people who were sort of like they they basically 3:25:24.080 --> 3:25:26.520 got turned into planning bureaucrats during in June World War two, 3:25:26.800 --> 3:25:29.320 because every government basically turns into a giant planning engine. 3:25:30.120 --> 3:25:32.280 And then you know, some of them go into some 3:25:32.400 --> 3:25:34.040 of them, you know, essentially stay on in the government 3:25:34.120 --> 3:25:36.560 doing planning stuff. Beers like goes into corporate world, and 3:25:36.640 --> 3:25:38.760 the corporations are also you know, they start doing they 3:25:38.760 --> 3:25:42.520 also start doing this planning stuff, and you know, but 3:25:42.640 --> 3:25:45.840 Beers is interesting because he he pivots like he pivots 3:25:45.840 --> 3:25:50.560 in a direction that the world doesn't, which is he 3:25:50.600 --> 3:25:53.480 pivots towards Okay. The solution to sort of you know, 3:25:53.640 --> 3:25:58.480 the kind of like decay of these like authoritarian planning systems, 3:25:58.959 --> 3:26:01.000 whether whether they be like the corporate versions of it 3:26:01.160 --> 3:26:05.920 or the sort of like state administered like total economic 3:26:06.040 --> 3:26:08.920 planning from the top down versions, is oh well, okay, 3:26:08.920 --> 3:26:11.560 we need to have planning from the bottom up and 3:26:12.040 --> 3:26:16.520 distributed planning. Yeah. Yeah, And he like everyone involved with 3:26:16.600 --> 3:26:19.640 iverson gets murdered. The only reason Beer survives because he 3:26:19.720 --> 3:26:22.560 wasn't in the country and it's it's just really interesting, 3:26:22.680 --> 3:26:27.279 like like it's just kind of not a story. Everybody 3:26:27.400 --> 3:26:30.600 got murdered, but some of them did and some of 3:26:30.680 --> 3:26:34.840 them were in exile. Uh, some of them were imprisoned. Yeah, 3:26:34.920 --> 3:26:37.160 it was, it was, it was, you know, it was 3:26:37.240 --> 3:26:39.840 not a good time. Beer got out early and he 3:26:39.959 --> 3:26:42.560 knew things that we're getting we're getting bad, and everybody 3:26:42.600 --> 3:26:45.960 around him knew things were getting bad. Um. Yeah, like 3:26:46.080 --> 3:26:47.400 he was on him. He was on like a kind 3:26:47.440 --> 3:26:50.080 of I guess, like it's almost diplomatic mission to like 3:26:50.200 --> 3:26:52.120 try and get some of the blockade stuff. Like he 3:26:52.160 --> 3:26:54.000 was trying to think he was trying to flog like 3:26:54.080 --> 3:26:56.600 a container ship full of iron or something, you know, 3:26:57.480 --> 3:26:59.440 shopping shopping it around to try and trying to help 3:26:59.480 --> 3:27:02.960 out the likely in mine to the world that's what 3:27:03.040 --> 3:27:09.280 it wants. Yeah, but um yeah, it's um hold on, 3:27:09.360 --> 3:27:12.440 I had a thought there. Um. And then like after afterwards, um, 3:27:12.760 --> 3:27:14.600 like Beer spent a fair bit as time like trying 3:27:14.680 --> 3:27:17.000 to get his his comrades out of out of Chile 3:27:17.200 --> 3:27:19.600 and get them out of prison and got got them 3:27:19.640 --> 3:27:24.200 resettled in UM, in the UK and so on, and 3:27:24.600 --> 3:27:29.680 yeah America as well. UM, but yeah, I think that um, 3:27:32.760 --> 3:27:37.120 this is like, that's a very interesting point about the 3:27:37.400 --> 3:27:40.360 the you know, the sort of the real value of 3:27:40.440 --> 3:27:47.960 this moment being that movement towards autonomy, that that reorganization 3:27:48.400 --> 3:27:56.720 of society, not towards uh neoliberal engineering of markets and 3:27:57.200 --> 3:28:02.480 uh sort of reinforcement of private tater ships, um, but 3:28:02.800 --> 3:28:06.320 towards a kind of like holistic control system that is 3:28:06.360 --> 3:28:10.920 still informed by you know, the principles of autonomy and 3:28:11.240 --> 3:28:16.200 UH and and and science. Um. It's it's definitely like 3:28:16.959 --> 3:28:21.240 an answer to the crisis of the seventies which was 3:28:22.440 --> 3:28:24.880 not taken up. And in that sense it is a 3:28:24.959 --> 3:28:27.959 foreclosed future, but of course one that we can take 3:28:28.080 --> 3:28:31.080 lessons from now. Yeah. I think there's something else that's 3:28:31.200 --> 3:28:34.720 very interesting me about this, because you know, if if 3:28:34.760 --> 3:28:38.160 you look at how like if if you look at 3:28:38.200 --> 3:28:41.440 how the socialist block sort of responds to to the 3:28:41.480 --> 3:28:43.879 crisis and seventies, and you know, they're sort of decaying 3:28:43.879 --> 3:28:48.840 the eighties, like they have this option available to them, right, 3:28:48.879 --> 3:28:50.400 they have they have they have made a lot of ways, 3:28:50.400 --> 3:28:51.879 they have a lot they have a lot better technology 3:28:51.920 --> 3:28:54.039 than with the lands are using that have more resources, 3:28:55.240 --> 3:29:00.480 and every single one of them goes no and instead 3:29:00.640 --> 3:29:03.640 just sort of like transitions, you know, instead of I 3:29:04.440 --> 3:29:07.320 think it has to do with there. There there's a 3:29:07.400 --> 3:29:10.200 line this this is This is like slightly before this, 3:29:10.520 --> 3:29:14.240 there's a line in um a debate Maw and Joe 3:29:14.320 --> 3:29:16.800 and Li are having in and I think it's seven. 3:29:16.879 --> 3:29:19.920 This is like the peak of the sort of workers 3:29:19.959 --> 3:29:21.680 led part of the culture revolution, like the works have 3:29:21.760 --> 3:29:25.480 taken Shanghai, and Maw and Joe and I are talking 3:29:25.640 --> 3:29:28.920 and they're they're trying to figure out, like what are 3:29:28.920 --> 3:29:32.720 they gonna do? You know, they they set off this force, 3:29:32.840 --> 3:29:37.360 it's now become uncontrollable. And there's there's this line where 3:29:37.440 --> 3:29:39.480 they're talking about, Okay, well if if we give if 3:29:39.480 --> 3:29:42.160 they give them, if you give them a commune, they 3:29:42.200 --> 3:29:45.200 have to have free elections, and Joe and La is like, 3:29:45.240 --> 3:29:48.160 well that would be anarchism, and then they're just like, 3:29:48.200 --> 3:29:50.000 oh god, we can't do that, and they never do 3:29:50.320 --> 3:29:52.120 in the end, you know, the end result of this 3:29:52.200 --> 3:29:54.000 whole sort of that whole sort of processes that trying 3:29:54.040 --> 3:29:57.720 to like instead of doing, instead of sort of like 3:29:59.360 --> 3:30:04.720 devolving any level of control down to like any of 3:30:04.800 --> 3:30:06.480 the workers who are doing things, they're like, Okay, well 3:30:06.520 --> 3:30:08.160 we'll just just we'll just you know, we'll we'll we'll 3:30:08.200 --> 3:30:10.360 do capitalism instead. Well, well you will, you know, we'll 3:30:10.400 --> 3:30:15.480 create markets, will sort of like maintain our firm structure. 3:30:15.640 --> 3:30:21.680 But you know, the countries into it. Yeah, yeah, And 3:30:21.920 --> 3:30:23.880 it's it's this, it's it's a very interesting thing to 3:30:23.959 --> 3:30:27.720 me too, because like there have been other like you know, 3:30:27.879 --> 3:30:30.320 like they're like lots of socialist parties have sort of 3:30:30.480 --> 3:30:34.800 various like degrees of radicalness have come to power like 3:30:35.520 --> 3:30:39.320 since nineteen seventy three, and to my knowledge, not a 3:30:39.400 --> 3:30:41.160 single one of them has ever picked any of this 3:30:41.200 --> 3:30:43.840 stuff back up, like even even you know, like like 3:30:43.920 --> 3:30:47.320 the most radical sort of like like you know, like 3:30:47.680 --> 3:30:50.560 like like early Chavas never like touches this like even 3:30:51.400 --> 3:30:56.160 like I don't like I don't I don't think like 3:30:56.200 --> 3:30:58.200 I don't think the easy Lends ever done it, Like 3:30:58.280 --> 3:31:00.600 I mean, they have fetological issue is there, but like 3:31:01.440 --> 3:31:05.520 it's it's it's it's interesting to me that like basically 3:31:05.879 --> 3:31:09.800 no one who's ever taken power since has ever attempted 3:31:09.840 --> 3:31:13.720 it again. M h. Which get is changed because this 3:31:13.920 --> 3:31:16.680 is you know, one of one of the sort of 3:31:17.040 --> 3:31:19.480 like this, you would think this is like this is 3:31:19.560 --> 3:31:24.480 at least a potential solution to sort of this this 3:31:24.680 --> 3:31:27.560 this this problem of the stagnation and sort of collapse 3:31:27.640 --> 3:31:30.400 of the old sort of bultis there's a plenty of economies, 3:31:30.560 --> 3:31:33.720 but no one takes it up. But I'm interested to 3:31:33.720 --> 3:31:36.320 think what you too think about that, like why this 3:31:36.480 --> 3:31:40.080 doesn't happen. Yeah, there's a I think there's an interesting 3:31:40.160 --> 3:31:43.200 dimension of Beer's work in Chile that kind of I 3:31:43.320 --> 3:31:48.760 think um might provide some answers to that, which is 3:31:48.840 --> 3:31:52.440 that you know, he he was in charge of setting 3:31:52.520 --> 3:32:00.160 up Cyberson and Cyberson was kind of a system are 3:32:00.520 --> 3:32:08.360 optimizing the economy, but he had other concerns and other 3:32:08.560 --> 3:32:11.480 briefs that he was working on at the same time. 3:32:11.720 --> 3:32:17.640 And what he came to realize was that there was 3:32:17.840 --> 3:32:25.280 a layer of management and experts in the organization of 3:32:25.400 --> 3:32:30.560 the economy that were happy enough to sort of work 3:32:31.040 --> 3:32:37.000 on a cyber sin that was designed to improve production numbers, 3:32:37.879 --> 3:32:43.320 but they had real resistance to the idea of worker 3:32:43.400 --> 3:32:51.160 autonomy because of the because of wanting to maintain their 3:32:51.360 --> 3:32:55.959 their job privileges, and because of the prejudices of their 3:32:57.040 --> 3:32:59.400 their habitats. I guess you could say that what they 3:32:59.520 --> 3:33:03.000 learned when they were educated as engineers or managers or whatever. 3:33:03.160 --> 3:33:05.480 And you know, where the people who know things, the 3:33:05.560 --> 3:33:08.840 workers don't know things, they shouldn't be in charge that 3:33:09.000 --> 3:33:12.880 kind of thing. And so he starts to he starts 3:33:12.959 --> 3:33:18.040 to realize that in order to really make cybersen effective 3:33:18.240 --> 3:33:21.800 as an engine for autonomy, what needs to happen is 3:33:21.959 --> 3:33:24.920 that um, sort of what you are describing with the 3:33:25.000 --> 3:33:33.280 Shanghai commune, Uh, the the workers need to learn the 3:33:33.480 --> 3:33:42.879 cybernetic principles themselves and implement them through autonomous action. UM. 3:33:43.000 --> 3:33:44.840 And so he starts to try to kind of like 3:33:45.400 --> 3:33:49.480 right up, like right pamphlets that can be distributed to 3:33:49.560 --> 3:33:54.560 the workers so that the information that he has as 3:33:54.720 --> 3:34:00.959 theory is not being filtered through a bureaucracy, but is instead, 3:34:01.160 --> 3:34:05.520 like you know, involved in an educational process of self 3:34:05.640 --> 3:34:10.280 mode of mobilization among the workers. UM. And so you 3:34:10.360 --> 3:34:16.240 know this really UH doesn't mean that expert knowledge is irrelevant, 3:34:16.320 --> 3:34:21.520 but it does mean that it does imply threatening the 3:34:22.680 --> 3:34:28.640 social privileges of management and expert knowledge, because in Beer's 3:34:28.680 --> 3:34:33.720 conception of management, management is something that is done by 3:34:33.879 --> 3:34:39.080 anyone who has the power to affect an organization or 3:34:39.280 --> 3:34:42.520 change in organization. So if the workers are able to 3:34:42.680 --> 3:34:46.959 change their organizations, they are also managers. That's not something 3:34:47.080 --> 3:34:51.920 exclusive to experts t Beer management as a function. It's 3:34:51.920 --> 3:34:56.320 not a person. In Beer's ideal worlds, like management would 3:34:56.360 --> 3:35:00.879 just be these like decision nodes that emerge among among workers. 3:35:00.959 --> 3:35:04.000 I can like the management manager would never be a person. 3:35:04.600 --> 3:35:07.760 A manager would be like a kind of structural information 3:35:07.879 --> 3:35:13.880 processing like, um, thing that happens among people. Um. Yeah, 3:35:14.240 --> 3:35:18.200 and so like when you see in for example, the 3:35:18.320 --> 3:35:23.880 uss are the option of creating a planning network, a 3:35:23.959 --> 3:35:32.480 computerized telecommunications planning network throughout the whole union. Um, it's 3:35:32.560 --> 3:35:37.080 basically shot down for two reasons. One, it would be 3:35:37.320 --> 3:35:39.720 very very expensive for them to develop. It would be 3:35:40.480 --> 3:35:44.400 on the order of of doing, you know, their nuclear 3:35:44.480 --> 3:35:50.600 weapons development, perhaps more expensive than that. Uh. And Two 3:35:51.600 --> 3:35:59.320 it is simply at odds with the system of like 3:35:59.640 --> 3:36:04.360 playing the command economy that had that had grown up 3:36:04.480 --> 3:36:08.760 in the wake of the revolution. Right, It's simply at 3:36:08.800 --> 3:36:12.360 odds with the power of all of the factory managers, 3:36:12.480 --> 3:36:15.480 the planners, all that kind of stuff. It just kind 3:36:15.560 --> 3:36:19.440 of makes. It threatens their identity and it threatens their 3:36:19.480 --> 3:36:24.120 position of power. And so I think that when you 3:36:24.200 --> 3:36:27.240 look at the socialist countries and why they didn't adopt 3:36:27.320 --> 3:36:30.920 this system, I think it's because they it would require 3:36:31.000 --> 3:36:36.959 the people in power to really rethink their entire role 3:36:37.200 --> 3:36:43.200 and identity as members of society. Um. Yeah, And then 3:36:43.840 --> 3:36:46.280 it's kind of there's dreadful irony really and that like 3:36:46.959 --> 3:36:49.480 it's it's stafford me or somebody who comes out of 3:36:49.720 --> 3:36:53.720 like bourgeois like management stuff and is deep in the 3:36:53.760 --> 3:36:58.080 pocket for that he's the one who actually sincerely pursues 3:36:58.400 --> 3:37:02.280 the most radical projects in like socialist history that we've 3:37:02.320 --> 3:37:05.480 ever seen, vastly more radical in its intent, and it's 3:37:05.520 --> 3:37:07.680 like kind of it's the beginnings of its impact than 3:37:07.720 --> 3:37:10.680 anything any Leninist has ever done. And it's basically because 3:37:10.760 --> 3:37:15.800 he actually did want real freedom and autonomy for working people, 3:37:16.240 --> 3:37:19.039 and your average lendiness just doesn't, you know, Like again, 3:37:19.120 --> 3:37:20.760 like to go back to the example from earlier, right 3:37:20.800 --> 3:37:24.440 that like when when under pressure, they will they'll do 3:37:24.680 --> 3:37:29.480 capitalism before they'll do anything that even resembles um autonomy 3:37:29.520 --> 3:37:32.600 for workers. They'll take that path rather than doing the 3:37:32.760 --> 3:37:35.320 right thing, you know, that does speak to the character 3:37:35.360 --> 3:37:37.360 of the thing, and it's it's it's it's it's it's 3:37:37.400 --> 3:37:40.640 that class interest basically off those kind of functionaries, right like. 3:37:40.720 --> 3:37:42.600 And the thing that makes Beery different is that he 3:37:42.680 --> 3:37:45.520 sincerely actually wanted to do it, you know. And the 3:37:46.200 --> 3:37:48.760 worker's autonomy thing wasn't just a smoke screen for him, 3:37:49.000 --> 3:37:51.200 you know. Yeah. And when when he starts to come 3:37:51.280 --> 3:37:53.960 up with these ideas of like thinking like, okay, like 3:37:54.120 --> 3:37:58.000 an economic planning system is not adequate, we need to 3:37:58.080 --> 3:38:01.280 go beyond that to thinking of out the constitution of 3:38:01.360 --> 3:38:06.200 the social body, he he quickly finds that he's being 3:38:06.360 --> 3:38:12.560 marginalized within those circles of planners in the Chilean government 3:38:12.720 --> 3:38:17.760 because this is not something that they are enthusiastic about. 3:38:18.200 --> 3:38:21.640 They're actually quite concerned about this idea. Even if I 3:38:21.840 --> 3:38:24.480 end a would be you know, all for it, right 3:38:24.560 --> 3:38:28.480 because he was he was very sincere about his interest 3:38:28.720 --> 3:38:33.320 in an autonomy. UM, there were still many people around 3:38:33.400 --> 3:38:38.560 Beer who did not particularly like the idea. UM. Yeah, absolutely, 3:38:39.360 --> 3:38:41.880 And I think if we look at it, you know, 3:38:42.200 --> 3:38:46.200 in terms of why hasn't it happened since then in 3:38:46.600 --> 3:38:50.040 in all of these intervening decades, I think you also 3:38:50.160 --> 3:38:57.040 have to look at, um, the international system and the 3:38:57.160 --> 3:39:01.360 way that countries figure into it, because we have all 3:39:01.480 --> 3:39:06.920 of these um, neoliberal structures of management and organization that 3:39:07.040 --> 3:39:11.080 were created in the eighties and nineties and early odds 3:39:11.840 --> 3:39:17.440 UH that a socialist government has to contend with if 3:39:17.600 --> 3:39:22.080 they are to embark on a program like this, which 3:39:22.200 --> 3:39:25.240 isn't to say it's impossible, but what it does mean 3:39:25.600 --> 3:39:30.440 is that there are all these sort of um, highly 3:39:30.680 --> 3:39:37.400 complex regulatory and organizational structures that have roots deep in 3:39:37.520 --> 3:39:42.480 our societies right now, and it is the path of 3:39:42.680 --> 3:39:46.960 least resistance to not attempt to engage in a in 3:39:47.240 --> 3:39:52.040 in uh an effort to kind of, you know, let 3:39:52.200 --> 3:39:56.280 the market atrophy as you develop an alternative structure for 3:39:56.400 --> 3:40:00.720 social organization UM, because all of these structures are there 3:40:00.800 --> 3:40:03.039 and you have to kind of like route them out 3:40:03.600 --> 3:40:07.240 and replace them with something new, as opposed to having 3:40:07.320 --> 3:40:12.160 all these ready mades of what's already there, the market 3:40:12.879 --> 3:40:18.800 centered solutions, the the the kind of autocratic solutions, UM. 3:40:19.480 --> 3:40:22.560 You know, all of the management systems that have been 3:40:22.720 --> 3:40:26.600 developed with an autocracy in mind instead of something that 3:40:26.800 --> 3:40:30.680 is truly democratic and uh kind of self just dating 3:40:31.280 --> 3:40:33.880 mm hmm. And I think as well. And there's there's 3:40:33.879 --> 3:40:38.520 a kind of other thing that like, um, like the 3:40:39.160 --> 3:40:41.800 left has been kind of in a very weak position 3:40:41.840 --> 3:40:44.760 for quite a while now, like since then, since the seventies, right, 3:40:44.760 --> 3:40:50.640 and like, um, yes, like we we're just we're just 3:40:50.720 --> 3:40:54.440 starting to come around to maybe being on possibly an upswing. 3:40:55.040 --> 3:40:57.120 But also like I think there was this kind of 3:40:57.200 --> 3:40:59.600 long depressive phase at the end of them, at the 3:40:59.640 --> 3:41:03.200 crossing the centuries, right, where a lot of like leftist 3:41:03.280 --> 3:41:05.520 kind of and this this this actually gets into like 3:41:05.600 --> 3:41:08.280 why some of the reasons why we started a general 3:41:08.320 --> 3:41:10.840 intolact unit that like we felt like we needed to 3:41:10.879 --> 3:41:14.360 bring this kind of like systems thinking and like technical 3:41:14.440 --> 3:41:17.959 seriousness back to the table after the kind of weird 3:41:18.040 --> 3:41:20.920 depressive phases where like you know, like say the alter 3:41:21.000 --> 3:41:24.760 globalization stuff for the occupy stuff, where people kind of 3:41:24.800 --> 3:41:28.000 take an almost explicitly anti strategic kind of turn and 3:41:28.160 --> 3:41:30.760 like a kind of anti technical turn. You know, there's 3:41:30.800 --> 3:41:33.520 that kind of depressive hangover of like oh my god, 3:41:33.600 --> 3:41:36.720 like capital and it's it's it's technology, is is hegemonic? 3:41:36.840 --> 3:41:38.040 Like how the fund are we ever going to get 3:41:38.040 --> 3:41:40.080 out of this? Like it would have been heard to 3:41:40.840 --> 3:41:45.160 make an argument for a scientific and like technical kind 3:41:45.200 --> 3:41:49.840 of fusion with with the humanist kind of impulses of socialism. 3:41:50.240 --> 3:41:53.080 But that's I think we're getting to a point where 3:41:53.080 --> 3:41:55.680 we can start actually having that conversation again, Like we're 3:41:55.760 --> 3:41:58.160 we're seeing a bit more of a turn towards that, 3:41:58.240 --> 3:41:59.560 and it kind of turn towards like this kind of 3:41:59.600 --> 3:42:02.880 serious kind of like more and more serious kind of 3:42:02.920 --> 3:42:06.040 discussion of like hey, like okay, like okay, like we 3:42:06.120 --> 3:42:08.640 we we we fucking hate the current order of things. 3:42:09.080 --> 3:42:10.480 We want to we want to see it gotten rid 3:42:10.520 --> 3:42:13.640 of what would we actually replace it with, like functionally, 3:42:13.680 --> 3:42:15.400 how would things actually work? Like I think those kind 3:42:15.440 --> 3:42:17.080 of conversations are coming back on the table in a 3:42:17.160 --> 3:42:19.960 way that those were just impossible in the nineties, like 3:42:20.040 --> 3:42:23.039 after the Berlin Wall came down or whatever. They were 3:42:23.080 --> 3:42:25.200 impossible a couple of years ago. You know, Yeah, the 3:42:25.240 --> 3:42:32.200 the market as the fundament of society basically seemed to 3:42:32.360 --> 3:42:38.000 be invincible at that time. Um, and there was a 3:42:38.120 --> 3:42:45.640 lot of just sort of wrongheaded assumptions about what was 3:42:45.760 --> 3:42:50.000 and wasn't true about it and about society as a whole. 3:42:50.360 --> 3:42:53.120 And you know, we've had a lot of chaos in 3:42:53.240 --> 3:42:59.120 the years since then. That was um that affected not 3:42:59.360 --> 3:43:04.160 just the countries that we were you know, being restructured 3:43:04.240 --> 3:43:08.720 by the I m F, but actually came in affected 3:43:08.840 --> 3:43:12.560 the core of the world economy as well. Uh. And 3:43:12.720 --> 3:43:15.920 I think that that that's sort of like, you know, 3:43:16.000 --> 3:43:18.160 in the same way that World War One kind of 3:43:18.320 --> 3:43:22.959 disproved the idea of the white man's invincibility and superiority, 3:43:23.520 --> 3:43:28.920 like having those like market chaos dynamics come home to 3:43:29.080 --> 3:43:33.080 roost in the core of the world system has has 3:43:33.320 --> 3:43:37.160 undermined that invincibility. That that that idea that oh, the 3:43:37.240 --> 3:43:39.680 market is just naturally the best and there's nothing that 3:43:39.720 --> 3:43:42.280 could possibly be better. At the same time that we 3:43:42.400 --> 3:43:46.640 have all of this technological development that's happening, um, you 3:43:46.720 --> 3:43:50.440 know in our economy that could be used for something 3:43:50.800 --> 3:43:53.119 different as opposed to you know, I don't know, making 3:43:53.240 --> 3:43:56.280 n F T s or something. Yeah, absolutely right, that 3:43:56.360 --> 3:43:58.600 that's all super important. I think that that kind of refines, 3:43:58.720 --> 3:44:01.000 like it might might be his thought is refining in 3:44:01.040 --> 3:44:04.840 my head now like that like right now, Um, that 3:44:05.120 --> 3:44:07.160 that kind of market chaos and especially even like the 3:44:07.440 --> 3:44:11.120 chaos of like the system's response to COVID and stuff, 3:44:11.840 --> 3:44:15.560 really puts um like in general and for the left 3:44:15.600 --> 3:44:17.760 in particular. It puts like the question of governance back 3:44:17.800 --> 3:44:19.200 on the table in a way that it had kind 3:44:19.200 --> 3:44:20.840 of been off the table for a while. Like I 3:44:20.879 --> 3:44:22.560 think there was there was a period on the left 3:44:22.600 --> 3:44:27.199 where like left activity was kind of like railing against governance. 3:44:27.320 --> 3:44:29.800 Like it was like we we want freedom from governance 3:44:29.800 --> 3:44:31.400 and that sort of thing. Right, And I'm not going 3:44:31.440 --> 3:44:33.600 to say those are necessarily bad impulses, right, but I 3:44:33.640 --> 3:44:36.000 think they're also kind of a bit wrong headed as well. Right, 3:44:36.080 --> 3:44:39.720 But like the kind of reality is that, like, for 3:44:39.879 --> 3:44:42.080 for human life to flourish, and for our lives to flourish, 3:44:42.120 --> 3:44:45.320 we need governance. And like because like governance actually like 3:44:45.440 --> 3:44:47.920 as a word has the same route as cybernetics does. 3:44:48.280 --> 3:44:53.280 So kaibernetes, the Greek word becomes kubernettes, becomes cybernetics. Right, 3:44:53.800 --> 3:44:57.720 but that's also the root of governor, so kuberner, kubernator, 3:44:58.400 --> 3:45:00.160 those are the roots of governance. So government and some 3:45:00.240 --> 3:45:02.920 cybernetics are one and the same kind of concept. Um 3:45:03.720 --> 3:45:06.840 And this question of like if we intend to create 3:45:06.879 --> 3:45:10.480 a world of self governance, um that is effective, it's viable. 3:45:10.600 --> 3:45:14.680 In Beer's terminology, like viable self governance, that what we're 3:45:14.720 --> 3:45:20.000 proposing is opposed to the chaotic vortex of nonsense that 3:45:20.080 --> 3:45:22.440 we have to put up with right now. And that's 3:45:22.440 --> 3:45:24.240 back on the table in a big way. That like, 3:45:24.560 --> 3:45:26.640 because I think especially with with COVID, people look at 3:45:26.720 --> 3:45:31.160 like just the sheer idiocy and ineptitude and chaos of 3:45:31.760 --> 3:45:36.640 our governments and realizing like, oh, those are decrepit completely 3:45:36.640 --> 3:45:39.840 screwed up systems and in parat because their goal is 3:45:40.160 --> 3:45:43.360 the maintenance of capital accumulation. So this gets us back 3:45:43.360 --> 3:45:46.040 to the goal directed behavior of cybernetics, right, Like the 3:45:46.120 --> 3:45:49.920 steersman steers the boat towards a goal, right, and it's 3:45:49.959 --> 3:45:51.880 it's always about or like a you know, a cybernetic 3:45:51.959 --> 3:45:54.760 device like a thermostat has a goal temperature that is 3:45:54.800 --> 3:45:58.200 trying to regulate the temperature of the water towards um 3:45:58.800 --> 3:46:02.680 You know, we have these vernance systems that are completely awful. 3:46:02.760 --> 3:46:05.880 They're just like not suitable for like the regulation of 3:46:05.959 --> 3:46:10.119 human life, for flourishing. They're only suitable for the regulation 3:46:10.160 --> 3:46:13.760 of this insane system that just keeps capital accumulation going, 3:46:14.040 --> 3:46:17.600 like that's the control variable that it regulates. And we're 3:46:17.640 --> 3:46:19.400 now in a position. We're on the left, Like more 3:46:19.440 --> 3:46:21.760 and more of us are saying, like what we're proposing 3:46:21.879 --> 3:46:24.520 is not like a sort of magical escape from governance. 3:46:24.560 --> 3:46:28.720 We're proposing, really, you know, we should have sane governance. 3:46:29.080 --> 3:46:31.280 And it turns out that same governance is bottom up 3:46:31.320 --> 3:46:35.440 self organized governance. Um. And that's that's both the moral 3:46:35.520 --> 3:46:38.200 position and a technical position, and I think they're both 3:46:38.240 --> 3:46:42.400 of those. The moral and technical valences feed off each other. 3:46:42.600 --> 3:46:45.320 Like we're we're we're able to be the serious people 3:46:45.360 --> 3:46:47.320 in the room. This this is a very big change 3:46:47.360 --> 3:46:49.760 of pace, right for us, because like for a while 3:46:49.840 --> 3:46:52.240 we were railing against like the very serious people of 3:46:52.360 --> 3:46:54.360 like the Centrists and like the fucking Blair rights and 3:46:54.440 --> 3:46:57.640 the Clintonite sort of people. We're the serious people now 3:46:58.280 --> 3:47:01.960 saying why what this what this system actually does is 3:47:02.000 --> 3:47:05.480 absurd and ludicrous, and it needs to be dismantled and 3:47:05.640 --> 3:47:10.160 rebuilt with a totally different like feedback circuits, a different 3:47:10.200 --> 3:47:13.840 kind of goal orientation, um. And it needs to be 3:47:13.920 --> 3:47:18.120 oriented towards human flourishing. And that's it turns out there's 3:47:18.120 --> 3:47:20.760 a science of doing that, and it's called cybernetics, you know. Well, 3:47:20.920 --> 3:47:25.360 and we also have a runaway ecological crisis where we 3:47:25.520 --> 3:47:34.039 learn about we see that you know, like the capitalist 3:47:34.120 --> 3:47:39.600 market system is absolutely leading us all to death and 3:47:39.720 --> 3:47:44.199 the earth to death, and so it is human flourishing, 3:47:44.320 --> 3:47:47.720 but we also are concerned with the flourishing of life 3:47:47.800 --> 3:47:51.600 in general. Right, Um, So I think that that that 3:47:51.840 --> 3:47:56.200 is something that wasn't as much on the horizon in 3:47:56.320 --> 3:47:59.600 the seventies. You know, I certainly think you know, people 3:47:59.680 --> 3:48:03.800 worth thinking about it. But breaking down this barrier between 3:48:03.959 --> 3:48:09.760 economics uh and uh and ecology, I think is a 3:48:09.920 --> 3:48:12.960 very cybernetic impulse. And I think one then, you know, 3:48:13.080 --> 3:48:16.680 we need to keep working at because like you know, 3:48:16.760 --> 3:48:19.680 whenever we think about these things as separate domains, were 3:48:19.760 --> 3:48:29.199 already uh, we're already engendering more destruction of the environment. Yeah. Yeah, 3:48:29.560 --> 3:48:31.879 I think cybernetics will also help us in that kind 3:48:31.879 --> 3:48:35.400 of link um on a kind of for left projects, 3:48:35.440 --> 3:48:38.400 like on an aggressive footing of like if we recognize 3:48:38.440 --> 3:48:41.160 that like the capital and its kind of government system 3:48:41.840 --> 3:48:44.560 is it is cybernetic, Like it has its own feedback 3:48:44.560 --> 3:48:48.160 circuits and like saying that the explosive feedback circuit that 3:48:48.200 --> 3:48:50.280 we're on with with ecology, right, Like, how do you 3:48:50.400 --> 3:48:53.680 intervene in a system to halt and disrupt those circuits 3:48:53.720 --> 3:48:56.840 so as to so as to disintegrate the system. Is 3:48:57.000 --> 3:48:58.680 um is something like you can you can learn a 3:48:58.720 --> 3:49:00.720 lot from cyber NICs to to lessons and how to 3:49:01.520 --> 3:49:04.280 intervene there. The last thing I want to talk about 3:49:05.040 --> 3:49:10.120 is just what is the society that is non capitalist 3:49:10.200 --> 3:49:12.920 and based off of sort of cybernetic governance principles. What 3:49:13.000 --> 3:49:16.960 does that look like for just a person? Because I 3:49:17.040 --> 3:49:18.680 think you know this, this is in one of the 3:49:18.800 --> 3:49:24.240 big sort of like political challenges of the last you know, 3:49:24.320 --> 3:49:26.720 fifty years. It's just the complete foreclosure of the ability 3:49:26.760 --> 3:49:32.320 to even just sort of imagine assistant that's not this mhmm, yeah, 3:49:32.680 --> 3:49:39.840 I think it. It means UM In the first instance, 3:49:39.960 --> 3:49:49.120 it means a different orientation to your workplace and your community, right, 3:49:49.440 --> 3:49:57.120 because when you grow up in a society where UM 3:49:58.040 --> 3:50:03.400 power is exercise as autocratically, it has an infantilizing effect 3:50:03.520 --> 3:50:08.520 on on you as an individual UM and uh, you know, 3:50:08.720 --> 3:50:14.640 maybe your relationship to work is your workplace is one 3:50:14.920 --> 3:50:20.040 of sort of emotional detachment or of tantrum throwing, right, 3:50:20.200 --> 3:50:23.880 because these are these are reactions, These are natural reactions 3:50:23.960 --> 3:50:29.560 to being in an abusive environment. Um. But if you 3:50:31.560 --> 3:50:39.200 are in a system where the work of management is 3:50:39.440 --> 3:50:43.480 not only open to you but expected of you, you 3:50:43.640 --> 3:50:47.720 have a different orientation to that workplace, to the community 3:50:47.800 --> 3:50:52.280 you're in because it's your responsibility. If you don't do it, 3:50:53.800 --> 3:50:58.240 you know, you're going to lose your autonomy and also 3:50:58.560 --> 3:51:00.760 you're going to have real problem ms that you have 3:51:00.880 --> 3:51:03.680 to grapple with as an individual. So there is a 3:51:03.760 --> 3:51:08.200 responsibility that comes there. But also like that means an 3:51:08.280 --> 3:51:12.440 opening up of horizons in terms of well, things don't 3:51:12.440 --> 3:51:14.760 always have to be the same. Things don't always have 3:51:14.880 --> 3:51:17.480 to be handed down to you for management on high. 3:51:18.360 --> 3:51:23.440 They can actually change. Like you can see the possibilities 3:51:23.480 --> 3:51:25.760 in front of you, you can plan for the future 3:51:25.920 --> 3:51:30.360 in your context, and you can have that meaningful freedom 3:51:30.480 --> 3:51:33.680 in your life and be you know, a a full 3:51:33.960 --> 3:51:38.400 human being in that sense, right, um. And so I 3:51:38.520 --> 3:51:43.360 think that that's a very core every day change that 3:51:43.600 --> 3:51:48.360 you could see, um, in terms of you know, sort 3:51:48.400 --> 3:51:52.120 of your horizons of where you might work or what 3:51:52.320 --> 3:51:55.560 you might do. You know, you could expect that there 3:51:55.640 --> 3:52:01.080 would be more possibilities for each person and to be 3:52:01.400 --> 3:52:05.800 like quote unquote entrepreneurial right to to have initiative in 3:52:05.920 --> 3:52:09.880 their life and be able to envision and create things 3:52:09.960 --> 3:52:14.600 around them that uh, you know, they can't do right 3:52:14.680 --> 3:52:18.800 now because they either are stuck in a job that 3:52:19.040 --> 3:52:23.920 doesn't give them that freedom, or they are actually not 3:52:24.120 --> 3:52:27.400 even able to have a job right now where they 3:52:27.440 --> 3:52:32.440 can have a reasonable expectation of survival because their workplace 3:52:32.760 --> 3:52:37.560 is oriented around just making sure the work gets done 3:52:37.960 --> 3:52:42.320 and you know, the consequences be damned. Um So I 3:52:42.440 --> 3:52:46.920 think that you know, that is another area that's important. 3:52:47.560 --> 3:52:55.040 Um And that sort of freedom of management um extends 3:52:55.080 --> 3:52:59.040 all the way up to uh, you know, working in 3:52:59.360 --> 3:53:02.560 different minds of capacities or jobs. Like some people in 3:53:02.680 --> 3:53:06.480 kind of a middle middle ranking area in a corporation 3:53:06.600 --> 3:53:09.720 these days might get shuffled around from department to department 3:53:10.240 --> 3:53:14.240 to try to kind of get a well rounded understanding 3:53:14.880 --> 3:53:19.600 of what the corporation is, uh and how it functions. 3:53:20.200 --> 3:53:23.760 But you know, we can kind of expect that these 3:53:24.000 --> 3:53:30.440 roles would be more open to everybody because again, you know, 3:53:30.600 --> 3:53:33.320 a system in the v s M is not a person. 3:53:34.400 --> 3:53:37.240 A system is a function and that function should be 3:53:37.360 --> 3:53:43.120 fulfilled in a way that is as flexible as possible. Um. So, 3:53:43.280 --> 3:53:45.840 there's a lot less kind of well, I'm stuck in 3:53:45.920 --> 3:53:48.560 accounting and that's my life now, and that's all there 3:53:48.760 --> 3:53:51.680 that will ever be. Of course, there are limits to education, 3:53:51.720 --> 3:53:55.000 their limits to specialization, all of that kind of stuff, 3:53:55.400 --> 3:53:57.840 Like you know, it takes time to learn these things, 3:53:58.120 --> 3:54:00.960 but you could expect some more flexibility be there without 3:54:01.120 --> 3:54:04.400 having that terror of oh yeah, you know, in the 3:54:04.480 --> 3:54:08.200 neroliberal era, everybody's expected to have like fifteen jobs in 3:54:08.240 --> 3:54:11.800 the course of their quote unquote career. But also each 3:54:11.880 --> 3:54:14.040 of those jobs is going to be interspersed with a 3:54:14.120 --> 3:54:18.160 period of absolute terror as they live with unemployed in 3:54:18.240 --> 3:54:22.440 a society without a safety net. Right, Um, I think 3:54:22.520 --> 3:54:26.360 that that's that's you know, those are real consequences for 3:54:26.840 --> 3:54:32.720 everybody's life. I think, yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I think like, 3:54:32.800 --> 3:54:35.160 at a very very high level, the way Beer puts 3:54:35.200 --> 3:54:38.280 that is that we are trapped in this kind of 3:54:38.520 --> 3:54:42.280 crazy system that like its control variable as profits, like 3:54:42.400 --> 3:54:45.600 that's the little variable that it's it's like doing feedback 3:54:45.640 --> 3:54:51.240 onto to maintain um. Whereas what we're proposing is like 3:54:51.720 --> 3:54:55.480 that the sort of cybernetic future will be a society 3:54:55.560 --> 3:54:59.560 that's optimizing flourishing. Like what what Beer be the word 3:54:59.600 --> 3:55:02.680 he uses you demony, which is borrowing from Aristotle just 3:55:02.800 --> 3:55:06.880 did like flourishing. Um And yeah, a lot a lot 3:55:06.960 --> 3:55:08.880 of stuff flows out from that. Like to imagine a 3:55:08.920 --> 3:55:12.800 world where, because we we all feel it right that 3:55:12.960 --> 3:55:16.240 like everything around us is kind of like micro tuned 3:55:16.760 --> 3:55:19.040 as like a little feedback loop to keep money and 3:55:19.120 --> 3:55:23.120 profit flowing and to keep capital accumulating. Les imagine a 3:55:23.160 --> 3:55:27.240 world where that's just not true anymore, and the the 3:55:27.640 --> 3:55:30.520 sort of social infrastructure that you grow up in is 3:55:30.520 --> 3:55:37.840 an infrastructure that instead optimizes for the flourishing of life. Yeah. Um. 3:55:38.400 --> 3:55:40.720 And I think you know, when we we we look 3:55:40.760 --> 3:55:43.440 at sort of the broader patterns of society today, we 3:55:43.560 --> 3:55:46.960 see all of these hair brained schemes that you know, 3:55:48.000 --> 3:55:51.560 very rich men are embarking on, and they're they're setting 3:55:51.600 --> 3:55:55.080 the agenda for society. You know, we're that you know, 3:55:55.240 --> 3:55:58.480 Mark Zuckerberg is telling us that the metaverseus the future 3:55:58.760 --> 3:56:00.880 and you just have to get on board with this, 3:56:01.080 --> 3:56:05.720 even though anyone can see that this idea is patently ridiculous. Um. 3:56:06.760 --> 3:56:12.600 And in a society where that kind of management, that 3:56:12.760 --> 3:56:17.920 kind of money power doesn't exist anymore, Like you don't 3:56:18.040 --> 3:56:21.760 have to live under that kind of future horizon anymore, 3:56:21.960 --> 3:56:25.160 where it's like eight men with absurd amounts of money 3:56:25.720 --> 3:56:29.920 cook up, you know, ridiculous schemes and everybody has to 3:56:30.040 --> 3:56:32.320 follow them, just like they were following the orders of 3:56:32.440 --> 3:56:36.120 Pharaoh back in the day. I think do not be 3:56:36.280 --> 3:56:39.080 ruled by pharaohs is as kind of places. And he too, 3:56:39.880 --> 3:56:41.480 leave off unless you tell if anything else do you 3:56:41.520 --> 3:56:44.160 want to get to? Okay, there's there's one little line 3:56:44.280 --> 3:56:46.560 from Beer's book at what it's actually a set of 3:56:46.600 --> 3:56:49.600 presentations called Designing Freedom, that I absolutely love. It cracks 3:56:49.600 --> 3:56:50.640 me up every time I read it, so I'm just 3:56:50.680 --> 3:56:52.360 gonna beat that for the listeners. It gives you a 3:56:52.440 --> 3:56:55.840 sense of his absolute like ridiculous radicalism, like these off 3:56:55.880 --> 3:56:59.120 the fucking chats with this stuff. Um. At some point, 3:56:59.200 --> 3:57:02.160 he says, I'm quoting here, every time we hear that 3:57:02.240 --> 3:57:04.880 a proposal will destroy society has been we should have 3:57:04.960 --> 3:57:11.360 the courage to say, thank God at last, Yeah, a 3:57:11.480 --> 3:57:17.480 real maniac. Yeah. And and and you have this this 3:57:17.720 --> 3:57:21.840 dictum of if it works, it's out of date. So 3:57:22.320 --> 3:57:25.960 you know, it's it's like like, yeah, don't be complacent, 3:57:26.360 --> 3:57:31.600 you know, don't be a traditionalist. I think also that 3:57:31.640 --> 3:57:34.160 there's been there's been really horrific consequences of sort of 3:57:34.400 --> 3:57:37.440 the right being the ones to like take the urge 3:57:37.480 --> 3:57:41.480 for creative destruction, just like you know what was that line. 3:57:41.480 --> 3:57:46.000 There's some I forget some some venture capitalist things like 3:57:46.080 --> 3:57:48.320 move fast and break things, and it's like, yeah, so 3:57:48.360 --> 3:57:50.960 when they move fast the things they breaks us. But 3:57:51.720 --> 3:57:56.200 you know we can move faster and break things that 3:57:56.320 --> 3:58:01.240 are bad. Yeah, it's to create of and playful kind 3:58:01.280 --> 3:58:03.960 of motive being right that like you you might be 3:58:04.000 --> 3:58:06.600 able to work, wake up in the morning and think, God, 3:58:06.680 --> 3:58:07.960 you know, it would be really cool if we could 3:58:08.000 --> 3:58:10.240 have like like a child care nurse ory just like 3:58:10.960 --> 3:58:12.960 like out in the out in the common area between 3:58:13.000 --> 3:58:15.360 these buildings and stuff, and like go to your go 3:58:15.480 --> 3:58:18.200 to your local like your your workers council or whatever, 3:58:18.280 --> 3:58:21.560 and have a really plausible like the way of actually 3:58:21.640 --> 3:58:24.360 getting that and like collaborating with people to make that happen, 3:58:24.760 --> 3:58:26.560 and then being like, Okay, well we'll try it as 3:58:26.560 --> 3:58:29.400 an experiment for twelve months, we'll keep we'll see how 3:58:29.440 --> 3:58:31.960 it goes. And then there's a feedback cycle where it's like, Okay, 3:58:32.000 --> 3:58:34.080 some aspect of this design didn't really work out. We'll 3:58:34.120 --> 3:58:36.080 we'll go talk about it some more and then it 3:58:36.240 --> 3:58:40.000 aerate on that. And that's that's like as it's it's 3:58:40.040 --> 3:58:43.240 an entrepreneurialism that doesn't bear much resemblance to what that 3:58:43.440 --> 3:58:46.160 word means right now. It just means that human beings, 3:58:46.280 --> 3:58:49.320 living real things, real workers, will be able to actually 3:58:49.400 --> 3:58:52.960 control their environments in this the substance of their lives 3:58:53.000 --> 3:58:58.520 and in a meaningful way. Yeah, and like this, I 3:58:58.600 --> 3:59:02.200 think you know, back in the nineties early odds, sort 3:59:02.240 --> 3:59:05.720 of before the two thousand eight crisis, in the hoary 3:59:05.840 --> 3:59:10.640 days of your um it's there was a lot of 3:59:10.760 --> 3:59:19.200 talk about flexibility and dynamicism and adaptation. But what that 3:59:19.320 --> 3:59:24.520 always meant was we make decisions about what's going to 3:59:24.720 --> 3:59:28.200 change and you have to adapt, right it was it 3:59:28.360 --> 3:59:31.960 was it was, you know, always this arbitrary power from 3:59:32.080 --> 3:59:35.280 outside that would just be changing the social fabric, and 3:59:36.000 --> 3:59:39.160 you had to be flexible enough to cope with what 3:59:39.360 --> 3:59:44.400 you were being subjected to. It's very different if you 3:59:44.480 --> 3:59:50.560 know the planning is being done by you for you, 3:59:51.520 --> 3:59:56.840 and you're moving towards adaptation and flexibility out of a 3:59:56.960 --> 4:00:01.080 sense of oh, yeah, this would be better and I'm 4:00:01.160 --> 4:00:04.600 going to adapt to be in a better state to 4:00:05.440 --> 4:00:09.080 to work with my environment, uh, in a more healthy 4:00:09.320 --> 4:00:12.720 and a more flourishing way as opposed to just like, 4:00:13.360 --> 4:00:15.480 oh yeah, you've got to work three jobs now, so 4:00:15.640 --> 4:00:19.640 figure it out right. That's a very different kind of flexibility, 4:00:19.800 --> 4:00:22.720 very different kind of adaptation. And you know, those things 4:00:22.760 --> 4:00:25.160 have sort of become dirty words in some ways, but 4:00:25.600 --> 4:00:27.640 they are really core to the way that we all 4:00:27.720 --> 4:00:30.600 exist as organisms in the world, and they don't have 4:00:30.840 --> 4:00:36.240 to be just synonyms for abuse. Mm hmm exactly. Yeah, 4:00:36.320 --> 4:00:38.440 I think okay, we can take this as a place 4:00:38.480 --> 4:00:41.240 to leave off. Yeah, do you two have stuff you 4:00:41.280 --> 4:00:43.120 want to log and I know you you want to plug, 4:00:43.200 --> 4:00:45.440 but plug the things that you want people to listen 4:00:45.480 --> 4:00:50.320 to because they are Um yeah, we're General Intellecting us. 4:00:50.440 --> 4:00:53.000 Um you could to General Intellecting a totness and it's 4:00:53.040 --> 4:00:55.760 got all the episodes on there around Twitter, ask g 4:00:56.080 --> 4:00:59.160 nice pod Um, yeah, you can find us on all 4:00:59.200 --> 4:01:02.480 the podcast things. Um. We're also part of a podcast 4:01:02.520 --> 4:01:06.240 network called Emancipation and so that's emancipation dot Network on 4:01:06.360 --> 4:01:10.360 the web. Um, and yeah, some really excellent shows on there. 4:01:10.400 --> 4:01:16.560 We were collaborating with Swampside Chats and um, Mortal Science 4:01:16.880 --> 4:01:19.640 from Alpha to Omega Jumps in Utopia. They're they're really 4:01:19.680 --> 4:01:23.680 wonderful shows that are all um it's it's a variety 4:01:23.720 --> 4:01:26.040 of different sort of takes on things, but like um, 4:01:26.400 --> 4:01:29.000 there's a sort of common there's a sort of spiritual 4:01:29.040 --> 4:01:32.720 common grounds they all have. Um yeah, we we all 4:01:32.800 --> 4:01:42.839 were all interested in thinking systematically. We're all interested in emancipation, 4:01:43.160 --> 4:01:46.760 as the network name says, and we're all interested in 4:01:47.160 --> 4:01:52.760 sort of building something going forward, trying to construct an 4:01:52.760 --> 4:01:59.920 alternative as opposed to simply getting caught up in day 4:02:00.000 --> 4:02:06.320 today politics or getting caught up in uh dum mentality. Yeah. 4:02:06.800 --> 4:02:09.680 So yeah, it's it's systematic, it's critical, but it's also 4:02:09.800 --> 4:02:11.800 constructive and I think that's what we're all trying to 4:02:11.880 --> 4:02:15.280 do there. Yeah. Yeah, Well, thank you too both for 4:02:15.400 --> 4:02:19.760 coming on. Thank you it's been wondering. Thanks for having us. Yeah, 4:02:20.000 --> 4:02:21.880 this has been Make it happen here. You can find 4:02:22.000 --> 4:02:26.680 us that happened here pod in places. There's also stuff 4:02:26.760 --> 4:02:28.720 at Coals on media that you can also find in 4:02:28.960 --> 4:02:31.840 those same places and possibly also different ones. We have 4:02:31.920 --> 4:02:34.760 a we have a website. Everyone asked me for my 4:02:34.840 --> 4:02:38.400 sources every single week and they get posted there once 4:02:38.440 --> 4:02:42.800 a month. So yeah, go go to Culson Media dot 4:02:42.840 --> 4:02:46.200 com and you will find all of the sources so 4:02:46.240 --> 4:02:49.760 you don't have to DM me every week, all right, 4:02:50.040 --> 4:03:07.640 by h Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes 4:03:07.800 --> 4:03:10.240 every week from now until the heat death of the Universe. 4:03:11.040 --> 4:03:13.400 It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 4:03:13.720 --> 4:03:16.280 Or more podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our website 4:03:16.320 --> 4:03:18.440 cool zone Media dot com, or check us out on 4:03:18.520 --> 4:03:21.000 the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 4:03:21.080 --> 4:03:23.840 listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could 4:03:23.880 --> 4:03:26.800 Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com 4:03:26.920 --> 4:03:28.800 slash sources. Thanks for listening.