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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Welcome back to it could

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Speaker 1: happen here, a podcast about things falling apart and occasionally

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Speaker 1: even about how to put some other things back together. Um.

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Speaker 1: Today we're gonna be talking about something that is increasingly

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Speaker 1: a part of what we like to call the crumbles

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Speaker 1: around here, which is the health care system in this country,

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Speaker 1: in the hospital system in this country as it uh

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Speaker 1: kind of gets crunched by covid. Um. And we're gonna

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Speaker 1: particularly talk about a really critical aspect of our entire

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Speaker 1: medical infrastructure that a lot of people don't know about

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Speaker 1: traveling nurses. Uh. And with me today is our guest,

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Speaker 1: and and you are a traveling nurse from New York

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Speaker 1: to California all around the country. Um, thanks for being

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Speaker 1: on the show. Glad to be here. Yeah. So I

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Speaker 1: live in Colorado and I was a regular staff nurse

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Speaker 1: UM until COVID hit. And you know, at that time,

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Speaker 1: we expected it to crunch everywhere. UM, but my home hospital,

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Speaker 1: like many places that worked on the coast, UM ended

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Speaker 1: up being really empty when everybody locked down and stopped

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Speaker 1: getting into car accidents and going to parties and all

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Speaker 1: of the other things that bring people into the e

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Speaker 1: R and I se use UM. So at that time,

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Speaker 1: i quit my full time job and went to New

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Speaker 1: York as a travel nurse UM. And then I've been

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Speaker 1: dancing around hotspots since then. So New York, Texas, Ohio,

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Speaker 1: rural New Mexico. UM. I just finished my third contract

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Speaker 1: in California. I've been up to Oregon. So UM, I've

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Speaker 1: seen the health care system working and not working in

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Speaker 1: a lot of different places, and also like how much

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Speaker 1: disparity there is different communities related to COVID as in

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Speaker 1: the health care that we can provide. Yeah, and I

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Speaker 1: am kind of before we move on to some of

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Speaker 1: the specific things going on with travel nurses, what is

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Speaker 1: your sense of like how often are you in a

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Speaker 1: place and feel like, well, this the hospital system here,

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Speaker 1: this particular hospital they're they're like right on the edge

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Speaker 1: of a breaking point most of the time. Okay, that's

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Speaker 1: good to know where your seatbelts, folks. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: particularly since everyone was able to get vaccinated right, Like

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Speaker 1: to me, I really feel like that that that point

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Speaker 1: of like the tipping point of like the quote unquote

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Speaker 1: crumbles kind of like after everybody was was able to

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Speaker 1: get their second vaccination UM, and we had so much

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Speaker 1: hope last May and June and things were reopening and

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Speaker 1: it was kind of like, Wow, things could go back

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Speaker 1: to normal. UM, and then like, I don't believe that's

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Speaker 1: going to happen. And since and I've seen so much

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Speaker 1: more despair in my coworkers, and I've heard about so

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Speaker 1: many more healthcare suicides UM staff, nurses, travel nurses, arties,

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Speaker 1: other ancillary people, and you know, the kind of running joke,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of workplaces is like, well, I hope

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Speaker 1: I test positive for COVID because that would be better

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Speaker 1: than coming into work another day. Yeah, alright, I hope

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Speaker 1: I get hit by a car so I don't have

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Speaker 1: to come in your job, I think, is what a

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Speaker 1: lot of people would the people who you know are

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Speaker 1: reasonable human beings and see what you're doing is incredibly necessary.

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Speaker 1: Find that would find the work to be something of

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Speaker 1: a nightmare. I mean, it sounds like horrific, UM, to

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Speaker 1: have to deal with this. I mean it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: not an easy job in the best of times being

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Speaker 1: a nurse. But like with COVID and stuff, it's it's

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Speaker 1: just there's so much else on y'all's plates. UM. And

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Speaker 1: one of the things that has happened over the course

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Speaker 1: of the last year or well almost two years now, UM,

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Speaker 1: is that from January, the advertised pay rates for travel

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Speaker 1: nurses around the country have gone up by about sixty UM,

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Speaker 1: which in staffing firms of you know, increase their building

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Speaker 1: up hospitals by like so like this huge rays in

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Speaker 1: what um travel nurses are demanding and what is getting

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Speaker 1: paid out. And I think a reasonable person would go, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: of course, UM. And yeah, I think anybody would go

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Speaker 1: any reasonable person would go, well, yeah, of course, you

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Speaker 1: guys deserve much more money than that for what you're

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Speaker 1: dealing with right now. UM. I have no problem with this,

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Speaker 1: But people who do have problems with this are the

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Speaker 1: American Hospital Association UM, among other folks. Generally the folks

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Speaker 1: who are seeing this primarily as a well, now we're

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Speaker 1: spending more money issue, as opposed to a hey maybe

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Speaker 1: we don't have enough nurses, right, Yeah, So I guess

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Speaker 1: I have maybe a couple of comments on that. So

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Speaker 1: one of the things about nurses, so if if you're

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Speaker 1: not in the travel field and you say want to

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Speaker 1: change hospitals, even if you're an experienced nurse, they will

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Speaker 1: take between a month and six months to go through

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Speaker 1: their hiring process and then they will give you a week,

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Speaker 1: two weeks, maybe four weeks of orientation. So that's a

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Speaker 1: long process to hire a nurse. Normally, for me as

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Speaker 1: a travel nurse, I will talk to a recruiter, I

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Speaker 1: will say yes, I will be on the road somewhere

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Speaker 1: between four hours to twenty four hours later, I will

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Speaker 1: get to the hospital. I will do a bunch of

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Speaker 1: paperwork that is for compliance and makes no difference at all.

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Speaker 1: I will get between two and six hours of orientation,

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Speaker 1: which is basically, here's the bathroom, here's the store room,

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Speaker 1: this is what we're going to audit in the charts,

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Speaker 1: and then I'm expected to take care of complex actively

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Speaker 1: dying patients. So, so you know, people complain about how

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Speaker 1: much we're getting paid. But if you only have two

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Speaker 1: hours of like where's the bathroom? And like this is

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Speaker 1: how you get most of the time when you're spending

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Speaker 1: with I T being like hey I need computer access, buddy,

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Speaker 1: and then there you are and you're in the thick

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Speaker 1: of it with no backup. You know, so you already

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Speaker 1: have to be an expert in your field, and you

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Speaker 1: have to be able to walk into an unfamiliar chaotic

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Speaker 1: situation and hit the ground running immediately. So yes, making

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Speaker 1: a hundred twenty bucks an hour is a lot of money,

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Speaker 1: But I don't know that that's so super unreasonable for

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Speaker 1: two hours of like yeah, it's the exit. Now take

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Speaker 1: care of people who are actively dying, and don't screw

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Speaker 1: it up. It's the way we're told the system is

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Speaker 1: supposed to work, right, Like, this is how capitalism is

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Speaker 1: supposed to function. The demand for something goes up, and

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Speaker 1: the demand for nursing his way the hell up, so

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Speaker 1: the price goes up. Um, if you believe in capitalism,

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Speaker 1: like one assumes these people who are responsible for you know,

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Speaker 1: paying you and are currently lobbying, So what's happening. I

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Speaker 1: should go back because we didn't note this but the

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Speaker 1: American Hospital Association and a number of other folks are

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Speaker 1: lobbying Congress right now to put a cap on the

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Speaker 1: amount of money that traveling nurses UM can uh can cane.

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Speaker 1: Even a number of UM congress people have said that

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Speaker 1: they're going to be looking into the issue. Several states Oregon, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Kansas,

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Speaker 1: and Kentucky have introduced legislation that's attempting to cap nurse

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Speaker 1: pay rates. So there's like this huge backlash attempting to

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Speaker 1: lock down the amount of money y'all can continue to

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Speaker 1: get paid UM because of all of the things this country,

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Speaker 1: I guess has money for the people dealing with the

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Speaker 1: I don't know what. I don't know how many millions

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Speaker 1: of additional sick and dying people UM are are are

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Speaker 1: kind of beyond what these folks are willing to shell

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Speaker 1: out for UM. And I got the size of that,

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Speaker 1: and I mean to clarify, so in a FEMA contract,

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Speaker 1: so what a lot of the contracts I take are,

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Speaker 1: So the nurse is making between a hundred and maybe

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Speaker 1: you also have a taxi stipend or you don't kind

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Speaker 1: of depending on how you are in that. And then

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Speaker 1: but the bill rate to the hospital is usually like,

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Speaker 1: so the legislation is against the agencies the agencies are

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Speaker 1: making between of course, the agency is then going to say, hey,

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Speaker 1: well we aren't going to pay you as much because

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Speaker 1: we still want the same cut. Yeah, my understanding, so

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Speaker 1: the trickle down effect is likely going to be travel

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Speaker 1: nurse wages. But my understanding is it's asking the FTC

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Speaker 1: to take enforcement against the travel nurse agencies because the agencies,

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Speaker 1: they're the ones that say they have the person on

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Speaker 1: the phone that says, hey, you have these credentials, we

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Speaker 1: want to send you to this hospital yes, or now

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Speaker 1: we've got this hotel arranged or we don't or you

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Speaker 1: know those types of and we're going to do this

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Speaker 1: type of on boarding. So they have their own kind

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Speaker 1: of infrastructure and they take, you know, half of the cut,

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Speaker 1: and some of those people are making a lot of

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Speaker 1: money too. Yeah, And it seems like it's kind of

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Speaker 1: the situation where the way this is being framed, they're

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Speaker 1: trying to crack down on these people who are kind

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Speaker 1: of profiteering or could be argued to be profiteering off

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Speaker 1: the situation um rather than trying to cap the amount

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Speaker 1: that the nurses can make so to speak, or at

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Speaker 1: least not by as much, but the overall effect will

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Speaker 1: be that because of the way these companies work, y'all

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Speaker 1: will still wind up making less money. Um yeah, how

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Speaker 1: um within the traveling nurse community, what is kind of

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Speaker 1: where are people right now with this? Like? What is

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Speaker 1: what is kind of the mood? Um? So? I think

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Speaker 1: there's a couple of things to note. So in the

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Speaker 1: FEMA contracts, they're usually sixty to seventy two contracts, so

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Speaker 1: you're working back to back to back to back, so

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Speaker 1: I'll do eight weeks sometimes. And most people are not

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Speaker 1: white women like me. This is mostly first and second

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Speaker 1: generation immigrants and generally people of color. Um So, these

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Speaker 1: are not people that are saving for Lamborghinis. These are

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Speaker 1: people that are getting off their student loans because a

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Speaker 1: lot of them went to private nursing schools because that

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Speaker 1: was kind of what was accessible to them because of

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Speaker 1: all of the disparity and education and opportunities. These are

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Speaker 1: people that are trying to pay off their mortgages. These

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Speaker 1: are people who are paying off their parents houses. Um So,

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Speaker 1: this kind of idea that like nurses are greedy is

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Speaker 1: I think really unfair because most of us are just

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Speaker 1: trying to, like, you know, make a life that works.

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Speaker 1: And also, you can't do eight hour contracts fifty two

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Speaker 1: weeks out of the year. No, I mean doing it

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Speaker 1: for any extended period of time. I've I've worked those

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Speaker 1: kinds of hours in a generally less stressful working environment. Um.

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Speaker 1: And it like it breaks you down, um over time,

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Speaker 1: like you you can't do that at any time in

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Speaker 1: your life for one thing like um, and you can't

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Speaker 1: do that forever. And it sounds like this is kind

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Speaker 1: of a lot of people are taking it as like

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Speaker 1: this is an opportunity. I can get my parents out

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Speaker 1: of debt, I can I can get a house, Um,

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Speaker 1: I can say for my kids to I can pay

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Speaker 1: off my own college. Like it's a chance for a

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Speaker 1: lot of these people by putting in an unbelievable amount

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Speaker 1: of f to get ahead. Uh. And I can't can't

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Speaker 1: even imagine the frustration at seeing so many people be like, well, no,

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Speaker 1: not so fast. And I mean one of the things

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Speaker 1: that people are bringing up is right like it in

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Speaker 1: the same way that you know, we struggle to want

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Speaker 1: to pass minimum wage laws for the undocumented immigrants that

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Speaker 1: pick our food, and you know, support this infrastructure that

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Speaker 1: is totally unseen now that we have you know what,

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Speaker 1: is mostly forstance second generation immigrants that are working these

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Speaker 1: FEMA contracts, Like, you're targeting a section of the population

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Speaker 1: that are not the people that have doubled tripled their

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Speaker 1: wealth in the pandemic, right, Like, these are not all

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Speaker 1: of the people that got the small business loans that

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Speaker 1: didn't need them and you know and have are just

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Speaker 1: putting all of that money into stock, right is there? Not?

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Speaker 1: These are people who just want a middle class American

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Speaker 1: dream and we're working, will work really really hard for it.

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Speaker 1: And I mean there these are people who are asking,

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Speaker 1: can I have the thing we're all promised? If I

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Speaker 1: spend eighty hours a week watching people, in a lot

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Speaker 1: of cases choke out their last fucking breaths, is that okay?

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Speaker 1: And a lot of people are saying, oh, of course,

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Speaker 1: not right. And you know, so we're taking care of

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Speaker 1: dying people while we're getting yelled at at the phone

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Speaker 1: of like, is cursing a lot on the show or

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Speaker 1: no fucking lutely yes, of course. Yeah. I mean I

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Speaker 1: had a family member saying, you're fucking imprisoning her on

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Speaker 1: a ventilator I'm going to come for you. Where do

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Speaker 1: you fucking live? You know we have to get security involved. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, we get death threats. I've had people like

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Speaker 1: threatened to find where I live and raped me. And

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Speaker 1: so I mean, yeah, enough of a race taking care

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Speaker 1: of your dying loved one who also probably would say

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Speaker 1: those same things to me because I would say, hey,

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Speaker 1: please be vaccinated and they would say fuck you. But

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Speaker 1: I'm still going to do everything I can to take

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Speaker 1: care of those um and I'm gonna endure this abuse,

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Speaker 1: and like, yeah, if I'm going to leave my home

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Speaker 1: and the safety of a hospital that works and go

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Speaker 1: into these total cluster fucks of hospitals where the educator

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Speaker 1: has left, the manager has left, the director has left,

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Speaker 1: so there's no leadership. It's travelers, some of which are great,

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Speaker 1: some of which are also hot messes, and try and

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Speaker 1: to take care of these people. Then like, yes, I

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Speaker 1: want to be paid accordingly for it. Now would I

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Speaker 1: trade that for a social um a social safety net

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Speaker 1: of health insurance because I have to get private health insurance,

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Speaker 1: which is shady. Um, I don't get any disability insurance.

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Speaker 1: I have no stick. Leave right because you're you're you're

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Speaker 1: a pinch hitter. You're not like salary anywhere. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: would I trade this high salary for a social safety net? Personally,

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Speaker 1: I would yes, But I mean nobody's gonna say, like, yes,

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Speaker 1: you will be able to retire with dignity if you

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Speaker 1: play by all of these rules. They don't believe that

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Speaker 1: I want to make the money. Yeah, it's I mean,

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Speaker 1: we're all always in this kind and I like, yes,

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Speaker 1: soccer way as much as you can while it's coming situation.

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Speaker 1: And she's especially if you're especially if you're doing something

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Speaker 1: you're gonna need to recover from later, right, Like this

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Speaker 1: is I I you know, I've I've done overseas work.

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Speaker 1: I understand kind of the nature of like trauma. And

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Speaker 1: while you're doing the job at the rate you're doing it,

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Speaker 1: you're also like pushing off a day of reckoning mentally,

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Speaker 1: and not having a cushion of savings helps with that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Like in the middle of it, you're in it, and

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Speaker 1: then you know, sometimes it's weeks, sometimes it's months. Um.

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Speaker 1: I hiked the Colorado Trail for mental health, and half

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Speaker 1: of those nights I had I See you nightmares. So

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Speaker 1: I was in these beautiful the middle of lower places

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Speaker 1: where everything was quiet. I would wake up with all

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Speaker 1: of the beeps and people dying in my head night

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Speaker 1: after night after night. You know, yeah, I mean yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm angry that they don't want to compensate me for that,

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Speaker 1: because I mean, they're definitely not paying for my therapist.

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Speaker 1: They definitely like aren't giving me access to disability if

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Speaker 1: I need it? Right? Like yeah, because obviously again, you're

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Speaker 1: you're a contractor. Effectively, Um, there's not like a union

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Speaker 1: for traveling nurses, is there? Or Am I wrong about that? No? So,

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Speaker 1: I mean the only thing you have each your negotiating power. Um.

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Speaker 1: So I have eight years of experience between emergency and

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Speaker 1: I see you, um, and a lot of very um,

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Speaker 1: big and highly regarded hospitals. So I'm a hot commodity

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Speaker 1: to them, so I can kind of pick and choose, um,

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Speaker 1: who I want to work with compared to someone that

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Speaker 1: has less desirable specialties. Not that those specialties don't also

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Speaker 1: work as hard, but they're just harder. They're easier to staff,

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Speaker 1: so therefore they're not It's a market thing. Sure, it's

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Speaker 1: a market things. I definitely don't believe that my specialties

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Speaker 1: are more like inherently valuable just in terms of the market. Um.

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Speaker 1: So you know, so I get I can I have

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Speaker 1: the luxury of turning down contracts that aren't what I want.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, I have no idea what I'm walking into.

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Speaker 1: So on Monday, I'll walk into somewhere. Um, they said,

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Speaker 1: you'll do some paperwork, you'll get your orientation, you'll have

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Speaker 1: it'll all be it'll be a busy day and then

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Speaker 1: you'll be on your own. And I have no idea.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes you're oriented in one unit and you never see

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Speaker 1: that unit again. So um, and I you know, you

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Speaker 1: have no idea what you're walking into. And how how

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Speaker 1: long are these contracts? Generally? For so, before COVID, the

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Speaker 1: standard nursing contract was thirteen weeks UM. Since COVID, a

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Speaker 1: lot of them are shorter. And I've only done in

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Speaker 1: short contracts because if it's a decent place, then I

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Speaker 1: can renew and stay longer usually, and if it's a

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Speaker 1: bad place, then I'm pretty happy to get out early. Um.

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Speaker 1: So I do between four and eight week contracts, and

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Speaker 1: I usually do sixty plus hours a week. Is there

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Speaker 1: any kind of like organization that you've seen come together

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Speaker 1: a little more between people who are doing this this

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Speaker 1: gig since you don't have kind of representation. Is that

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Speaker 1: something that started to take form in the last two

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Speaker 1: years since COVID. I mean there's definitely a lot of

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Speaker 1: talk about it. Um. I think like those of us

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Speaker 1: that started traveling since the pandemic, you know, I would

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Speaker 1: say that I've only done crisis contracts, like I've never

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Speaker 1: done a normal thirteen week, thirty six hour a week,

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Speaker 1: not crisis assignment, like I've only gone into the ship

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Speaker 1: show hot spots, um. And so therefore, like my needs

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Speaker 1: and desires are different than somebody who likes that previous lifestyle.

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Speaker 1: So in some ways it's a little bit hard for

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Speaker 1: us to kind of agree on common goals because we

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Speaker 1: have a lot of different you know, we're a very

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Speaker 1: diverse group of nurses. Um. Definitely, the Million Nurse March

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Speaker 1: is kind of a step towards that. Tell me about

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Speaker 1: that what what is this? Because I just learned about

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Speaker 1: this pretty recently. Yeah, so I dropped off the grid

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Speaker 1: for the last five days, which was fantastic for me,

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Speaker 1: but it means I'm also just starting to figure it out. UM.

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Speaker 1: So the kind of general idea is that you know

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Speaker 1: we have I think, uh, I'm gonna hopefully I don't

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Speaker 1: get it wrong. Four millions some nurses in the country,

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Speaker 1: A huge number of nurses in the country and a

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Speaker 1: huge number of dropping out. Um, you know, hundreds of

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Speaker 1: thousands quit last year. They I think one estimate is

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Speaker 1: five hundred thousand may quit this year. And we were

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Speaker 1: just so people know, tens of thousands of nurses understaffed

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Speaker 1: before COVID nation. Yes, right, right, um, And you know,

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Speaker 1: I think one of the things to understand too is

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Speaker 1: that like if you work, I don't know, what's what's

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Speaker 1: the normal type of job that people work. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: If you work at the d m V A bookman,

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Speaker 1: Oh right, If you work at the d m V

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Speaker 1: and the d m V is slow, you will still

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Speaker 1: stay there eight hours and you'll just get paid for

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Speaker 1: your eight hours. If you are a normal nurse and

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Speaker 1: you work thirty six hours and the e R is

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Speaker 1: running slow, they could say we're just canceling you for

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Speaker 1: the rest of the day, go home, we won't play

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Speaker 1: you for those class six hours. And so like we've

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Speaker 1: always had pretty like flexible, like we've never had a minute.

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Speaker 1: Most of the places i've worked. I've never had guaranteed hours,

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Speaker 1: and so one of the reasons to go to travel

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Speaker 1: contracts to is also so you can at least have

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Speaker 1: guaranteed hours. So there's a lot of kind of protections

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Speaker 1: that nurses have never really had, like guaranteed hours UM,

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Speaker 1: like staff ratios, so some states California and organ or

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Speaker 1: um two of them. If you go into the ice U,

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Speaker 1: which is the highest level of care, so people are

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Speaker 1: actively dying, actively unstable, things can go bad within seconds.

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Speaker 1: Usually it's a one nurse will have two patients UM,

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Speaker 1: which is pretty much all you can handle because they're

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Speaker 1: on multiple drips, multiple types of life. The part keeping

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Speaker 1: them alive so ventilators UM being the one that we

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Speaker 1: see the most UM, and it's really your responsibility to

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Speaker 1: know every inch of that person's body UM and everything

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Speaker 1: going on with them, and you really direct a lot

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Speaker 1: of their care UM. So two to one kind of

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Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense since the pandemic and not

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Speaker 1: having enough nurses, sometimes that slid to three to one

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Speaker 1: or even in bad situations four to one. So one

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Speaker 1: of the statistic x that UM one of the kind

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Speaker 1: of nurse influencers and comedians, nurse Blake talks about UM.

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Speaker 1: Is that for every additional patient that a nurse takes on,

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Speaker 1: and I believe he's talking about med starch, not I

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Speaker 1: see that that patients UM mortality increases by seven percent.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, so asking a nurse to do more with

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Speaker 1: less is not just like hey, just suck it up,

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Speaker 1: be busier. This is actively contributing to people's disability and

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Speaker 1: early deaths. So one of the things that the millionairese

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Speaker 1: march Um wants to talk about is man man dated

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Speaker 1: staffing ratios. So I see you would be two to

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Speaker 1: one med starch is usually four to one. I think

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Speaker 1: you are. They're asking for three to one UM. So

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Speaker 1: these have been studied by the American Nurses Association UM

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Speaker 1: and other sort of UM nursing organizations UM. And not

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Speaker 1: only do they make your job as a nurse so

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Speaker 1: much better because we go into nursing because we want

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Speaker 1: to say things and take care of people. We want

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Speaker 1: good outcomes, right Like, you don't go into nursing to

393
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Speaker 1: just run around with your head cut off and watch

394
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Speaker 1: everyone die, right Like, that's terrible. You go into nursing

395
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Speaker 1: because you want the people to get better under your care,

396
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Speaker 1: and you want to be able to give them that,

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Speaker 1: and so when you're asked to take care of more

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Speaker 1: patients than you're able to, you're not able to do that,

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Speaker 1: and it just crushes you. UM. So not only is

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Speaker 1: it better for nurse satisfaction, it also saves patients lives

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Speaker 1: and also prevents things that will give cause lasting disability

402
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Speaker 1: like ventilator associated pneumonia or bed sores or delirium, things

403
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Speaker 1: like that. So, you know, mandating UM patient ratios is

404
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Speaker 1: one of the really big things that the million Nurse

405
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Speaker 1: marks is for UM. There's a lot of talk about

406
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Speaker 1: pay and living wages. You know, like every section. Housing

407
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,240
Speaker 1: prices and inflation have gone through the roof because you've

408
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,439
Speaker 1: got to like be renting a spot whenever you're like

409
00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,720
Speaker 1: the hospital only putting you up right well, and fir

410
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,159
Speaker 1: staff nurses to write like if you're you know, maybe

411
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Speaker 1: you're maybe they gave you a two percent raise, but hey,

412
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Speaker 1: rent increase UM. I used to be on the interview

413
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Speaker 1: board at my old hospital and we would just tell

414
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Speaker 1: people like, if you're moving to Denver as a single person,

415
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Speaker 1: we lose most of our nurses because they haven't looked

416
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Speaker 1: at housing. So like they'll accept a job, and then

417
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Speaker 1: they'll look for a place to live and be like, oh,

418
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Speaker 1: I can't afford to live here. So hey, like, I mean,

419
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Speaker 1: we can't ask if you're single moving here, but like

420
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Speaker 1: you probably can't afford to live here with what we're

421
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Speaker 1: going to pay you. I mean, cool, I I It's

422
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:39,880
Speaker 1: just it's so eternally frustrating that, like the one thing

423
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Speaker 1: that everybody, when you sit them down, agrees is in

424
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Speaker 1: controvertibly necessary medical care. Um. We can agree on a

425
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Speaker 1: lot of things, but not how to make sure that

426
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Speaker 1: people doing it have a good quality of life and

427
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,920
Speaker 1: good income. Like we can we have all these fun,

428
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 1: fun rules that make it possible to our X number

429
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 1: of thousand dollars for a dose of insulin um, But

430
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 1: we don't just have a law that's like, hey, if

431
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 1: if you're working full time as a nurse, uh, maybe

432
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: you shouldn't have to be housing insecure. I don't know

433
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,680
Speaker 1: how do you make that into a law, But it

434
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 1: seems like there should be some option for a country

435
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 1: that can make some of the things we make, Yeah,

436
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 1: I mean tying wages to housing prices. It seems like,

437
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, not being an economist and not being

438
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,679
Speaker 1: an administrator, Like that sounds super easy to me, Like

439
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:35,400
Speaker 1: everybody gives a fifteen percent race. Like sure, I'm sure

440
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 1: it's more complicated than that, but it seems super simple

441
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 1: to send a guy around with a stick to threaten

442
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 1: landlords when they raise rent. Like there's we could debate

443
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 1: the answers to this. What do you think I mean,

444
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 1: not not that like you have any sort of comprehensive

445
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 1: knowledge of all of the people doing this, but like,

446
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 1: do you think there's a possibility of like a wildcat strike,

447
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 1: which is again for people who maybe aren't is when

448
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 1: there's a strike of kers who are not unionized. Um,

449
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: I mean to some extent, with everybody quitting to do

450
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,360
Speaker 1: travel nursing, it's not so different. I mean, some students

451
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:16,120
Speaker 1: have lost eight of their staff, right some Like when

452
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 1: a unit says, oh, well, we lost of my staff,

453
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 1: I'm kind of like, well you did better than most,

454
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 1: you know. Um, So in some ways it's already happening.

455
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,360
Speaker 1: And in that same way, I am seeing hospitals give

456
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 1: better extent incentives to their nurses that have stayed um

457
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 1: either retention bonuses or um increasing bonuses for pick for

458
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: core staff picking up extra shifts UM, or kind of

459
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 1: other perks like increasing education benefits or things like that.

460
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 1: So I think hospitals are responding to like, hey, we

461
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 1: don't want to lose these people to traveling, Like can

462
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,880
Speaker 1: we tip the balance a little bit? And I think,

463
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 1: you know, overall, hospital leadership is moving slower than they

464
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 1: need to UM. But I mean at least they're moving

465
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 1: a little bit. So I mean in that way, I

466
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 1: can see a wildcat strike UM, just coming from the

467
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: kind of labor forces at play UM. And I could

468
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 1: and I mean there were one of the hospitals in

469
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 1: the South, I think it was Alabama, all of their staff,

470
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,679
Speaker 1: their staff coordinated UM, so that the ship that was

471
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 1: on agreed to stay late because you can't because abandoning patients, UM,

472
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: you can put your license at risk. Right, So we

473
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: all walked off in the middle of a shift and

474
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: said fuck you to the hospital. Patients died then, like

475
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,239
Speaker 1: our licenses at risk. So we also have to kind

476
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 1: of balance that a little bit. But there was a

477
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 1: hospital they organized for the day shift basically to stay

478
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: as late as they needed, and night shift all stood

479
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 1: outside of the hospital and I wouldn't refuse to clock

480
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 1: it in. So sometimes these things are happening in small levels. Um. Also, um,

481
00:25:54,440 --> 00:26:02,199
Speaker 1: really interesting Yeah, Like um, I mean, and that is

482
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 1: like such a tough thing to balance, just the idea

483
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: that like, well, you are health care workers, like withholding

484
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: your labor is a thing that's going to be necessary

485
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: from time to time. There's also consequences for it that

486
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,640
Speaker 1: are not present if you're making I don't know, tires,

487
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,439
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, And as much as teachers and nurses

488
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: are the same, Like I don't think our country cares

489
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,679
Speaker 1: about educating children as much as it cares about their

490
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 1: parents dying, you know, like for better or worse. Yeah,

491
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, that's another subject. Um. Is there anything

492
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: else you wanted to get into today? Um? Before we

493
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: we close out for the for the episode, Um, I mean,

494
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: if it's okay with you, and you can cut it

495
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: if it's not. Um, you know, I try and tweet

496
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 1: about kind of what's happening on the ground. Yeah, absolutely,

497
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: and the things that I'm seeing. Um. And I'm mostly

498
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 1: finished with a book about the first year on the

499
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 1: front line and seven different hospitals and kind of the

500
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 1: disparities between you know, critical access in New Mexico versus

501
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: trauma hospitals in you know, the Bay Area and kind

502
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 1: of what that first year looked like. UM. So if

503
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 1: you want, you can follow me on Twitter. UM it's

504
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,360
Speaker 1: an A N N E like an of green Gables

505
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 1: and R N which is when I started traveling nursaying, um,

506
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: you know, and so that I kind of talked a

507
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: little bit about like what I'm seeing and what's going on. UM.

508
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 1: I was recently in an e er where you know,

509
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 1: people often had to stay outside under the heat lamps

510
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: for thirty hours waiting for a hospital bed just because

511
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 1: everything was packed so they couldn't even come inside the

512
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: hospital and they were you know, waiting, um to get

513
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: their appendix out and things like that. Again, where are

514
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,679
Speaker 1: your seatbelts in the helmet? Be real, be real careful

515
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 1: right now, guys, right UM? And I mean I think

516
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 1: the other thing is the blood shortage. UM. So most

517
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 1: hospitals are revising their guidelines of who won't get a

518
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 1: blood transfusion, so you now have to be much more

519
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: critical before they will give you a blood transfusion. So, UM,

520
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 1: there's a lot of politics around blood donation, but if

521
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 1: you feel like you can donate blood, um, it's really

522
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 1: desperately needed, and people are gonna where your seats because

523
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: people are really going to legitimately die because we run

524
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: out of blood. Yeah, um boy, how do you please

525
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: wear your seatbelts? Folks? Um, just just hunker down for

526
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: a little while. No, no new risky experiments in life

527
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: for just a minute. Not the time to take up skydiving.

528
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, maybe avoid that. Maybe you don't go skiing.

529
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,239
Speaker 1: Uh if you haven't gone skiing before. Um, I just

530
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: did that and broke my wrist because I'm I'm exactly

531
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: as dumb as the people I'm trying to warn. And

532
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: then I guess just check in with your mental with

533
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: your the mental health of your health care workers, because

534
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: I mean, so many people have you know, I think

535
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: a lot of us are dealing with at least passive

536
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: sort of like puck. Maybe I should just drive off

537
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 1: the road instead of going into work today sort of thoughts,

538
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: you know. And oh, for a lot of us, that's

539
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: just definitleeting thought and then we get our ship together.

540
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: But for some people it's going to be more than that.

541
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: And you know, nursing is one of those things where

542
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: people have to find themselves by their career and they

543
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: need people in their lives, saying like, if you are

544
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: never a nurse again, you are still valued, you are

545
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 1: still loved. Just being alive, it's enough, and this is

546
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,959
Speaker 1: how you know we can help take care of you

547
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: if you need to quit for three months, you know,

548
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: um and supporting people with their intrinsic value rather than

549
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: like you are only productive and valuable because you were

550
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: there saving lives. Because I think a lot of us

551
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: really get stuck in that, and a lot of us

552
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: are drawn into nursing because we feel some lack of

553
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: worthiness without it. You know, well, that's the hard thing

554
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: to get other people to do, because in part this

555
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: is a society where we just have such generally crummy

556
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 1: attitudes towards mental health. But like we're great at at

557
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,959
Speaker 1: saying things like, oh, you know, there's a pandemic. Our

558
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: healthcare workers are heroes. You're all heroes because of the

559
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 1: that you're doing the work makes you a hero, as

560
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: opposed to saying, hey, thank you for doing that. I

561
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: know things are still fucked up right now, but if

562
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 1: you decide you gotta like take a break or whatever,

563
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: you know, you're you're you're that doesn't mean you like

564
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: what you did was still wonderful and you're still great

565
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: and valuable, and maybe the best thing is for you

566
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 1: to take that break and not drive yourself off of

567
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: a cliff. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's harder to get people

568
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: to like way of banners that say outside of their

569
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: apartment complexes, banging on pots to like let healthcare workers

570
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: know that no matter what they do, their valued members

571
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: of the community that people love. Um. But yeah, all right, well,

572
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 1: and thank you so much for talking with us today. UM,

573
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 1: I hope uh you you hold together and help the

574
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: people in your life hold together, which is all any

575
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: of us can really do other than we're a seatbelt. Yeah,

576
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: thank you for being a part of the conversation, and

577
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: thank you for you know, listening to hard things. And

578
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: you know that's one thing that I think we really

579
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: appreciate it as to people who will actually listen with

580
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: open hearts and and we'll witness this with us so

581
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: that we're not alone in it. It could happen. Here

582
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 1: is the podcast that you're listening to right now. I'm

583
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: Robert Evans. All right, that's that's my job done. What

584
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: are we what are we doing? What are we doing today? Hey?

585
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: What's up? Hey? Andrew? Back at it again with another podcast. UM. Today,

586
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: we're doing something a little bit different from the previous

587
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: episodes that I've done. We're having a bit more open

588
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: discussion about sitting book that has been passed around for

589
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: about a decade now and has polarized UM members of

590
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: the anarchist community. UM for it that way, UM today

591
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: we'll be talking about the book the infamous uh polemic

592
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: Desert by Anonymous. For those who uh, you know, not

593
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: aware of this extremely controversial text. Desert is a nihilist

594
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 1: anarchist text for this published in two thousand eleven that

595
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: is mainly directed at other anarchists and seeks to address

596
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: issues of climate collapse and revolution. It became somewhat of

597
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: a meme to tell folks to read Dessert. I'm not

598
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: sure when that was, but I just remember scene. It's

599
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: a lot um I think in yeah around read Desert

600
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: became a name, yeah yeah, all over Twitter and Instagram

601
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 1: and credit. But of course, being a thing that exists

602
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: on the Internet, people who naturally became torn on the

603
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 1: subject of it. And so there are a lot of

604
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: perspectives and opinions and think pieces about desert, some more

605
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: or less accurate than others. But we are here to

606
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 1: discuss the book, our personal experiences reading it, things we

607
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: think it gets right and wrong, and what we could

608
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: potentially learn going forward. So I would say the floor

609
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: is yours, whoever wants to go first. I mean, I'm

610
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 1: a huge fan of the quote that the book takes it,

611
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: or that the that it takes its name from, which

612
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: comes from you know, Tacitus, who was a dude writing

613
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: in the Roman period um the exact quote that it

614
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: comes from his and he's talking. Tacitus is talking about

615
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: the Roman Empire, robbers of the world. Now that the

616
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 1: earth is insufficient for their all devastating hands, they probe

617
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: even the sea. If their enemy is rich, they are greedy.

618
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 1: If he is poor, they thirst for dominion. Neither East

619
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: nor West has satisfied them alone. Of mankind, they are

620
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: equally covetous of poverty and wealth, robbery, slaughter, and plunder.

621
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: They falsely name empire. They make a desert and they

622
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: call it peace. Huh, good ass quote. It is a

623
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:38,280
Speaker 1: It is a solid yeah. And obviously I think people

624
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: living in the shadows of every empire that's ever existed

625
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 1: can identify with that quote. Um, it's it's a powerful

626
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 1: kind of central idea to hang your extended essay. I

627
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: don't really know what the best term to refer to

628
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: it as all. It's it's it's a long essay. Yeah,

629
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 1: it's a very long essay. As we talked about kind

630
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,399
Speaker 1: of coming into this, it's extremely two thousand tens um

631
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 1: three Arab spring pre all the big uprisings and revolts

632
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:13,879
Speaker 1: we had in twenty nineteen and UM, there's definitely some

633
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 1: stuff that it gets very right. And I think kind

634
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 1: of one of the ways in which it's had an

635
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 1: impact on me is kind of I've I've thought about

636
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 1: what happens to sort of culture as the result of

637
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 1: this kind of Hollywood engine that is heavily tied up

638
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 1: with the United States military Industrial complex, UM, as a

639
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,359
Speaker 1: process of desertification of ideas and the ability to like

640
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: conceive of of of new futures. UM. That said, I

641
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: I don't really I haven't reread it in a very

642
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: long time, UM, and haven't really felt UM called to

643
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: in in many ways because I do think I don't know,

644
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: I think there's an extent to which it's been kind

645
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,839
Speaker 1: of left behind. UM. Yeah. Yeah, some of the things

646
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: that have happened since I think, yeah, um, I will

647
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:12,240
Speaker 1: say that as someone who really came into my owners

648
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: an archist in although I had identified with it before, um,

649
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:21,839
Speaker 1: when I had read the book. Um, I think it

650
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:26,479
Speaker 1: was in late late so when they read the book

651
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: first time I read it, and honestly, um, there was

652
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: some good, some bad, some some very outdated stuff, and

653
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 1: also some stuff that I don't know. Maybe the author

654
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: felt it was like groundbreaking at the time, but you know,

655
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: at this present stage just feels like common knowledge sense,

656
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 1: you know, I mean it was. It was groundbreaking in

657
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: a way for like climate realism, right, like this was

658
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,919
Speaker 1: this was written before you know, this is written before

659
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: climate levy thing. This is written before um, the uninhabitable Earth.

660
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 1: This was written before a lot of kind of the

661
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: texts that view climate change is an absolute like this

662
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: was written one year before Hyper Objects. Is really interesting actually,

663
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: because you know, the whole premence of that book is

664
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 1: that climate changes is done, like it happened, where we're

665
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,320
Speaker 1: like there's no turning back the clock. And the desert

666
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 1: was written even before that, like it was it was

667
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 1: one of the first things. Now and of course it's

668
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: it's it's much more niche, but like it was if

669
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 1: I look, if I look back in books that have

670
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: like impacted me, it was it's one of the first

671
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:44,399
Speaker 1: books like that came out, like timeline wise to take

672
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 1: climate changes, like, yeah, it's there's no saving it, like

673
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 1: there's no living in the two thousands, there's no living

674
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 1: in the nineties. Again, it's like things are like the

675
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 1: world's not going to end, but things are going to

676
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,839
Speaker 1: get worse, right, like and that, and that is kind

677
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 1: of a big, big part of the book because it's

678
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: it's also it's also not pro collapse like it it

679
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 1: doesn't take. Collapse is an absolute. It doesn't take. It

680
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: doesn't it doesn't subscribe to global collapse. And that's one

681
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 1: of the misconceptions I think people have about them, Yeah,

682
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 1: that they just assume it's like this collapse Dumorus like

683
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 1: misscrupic kind of text, but which I did not read

684
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: it as that. I first started around the same time

685
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,439
Speaker 1: you did, um and I read it as a part

686
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:28,359
Speaker 1: of a lot of books I was reading to prep

687
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 1: for the show when we when we were writing our

688
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 1: first five episodes on like on climate change and like

689
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 1: the Crumbles. So I read it read it as a

690
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 1: part of my kind of general research. And yeah, like

691
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: at that point it was already kind of mimified to

692
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 1: be like, you know, like an anarcho nihilist like Dumor Manifesto.

693
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: And I read it and like, that's not what it's

694
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,839
Speaker 1: saying at all. It's actually once I read it, I

695
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: was like, as we be taking it back at how

696
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 1: how easily um popular perceptions of a piece of media

697
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 1: good um, I mean honestly corrupted beyond recognition. Yeah, you know,

698
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:10,479
Speaker 1: like if people are a bunch of people are telling

699
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 1: you know it's that or the other about is in

700
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 1: text or whatever, you know, it's kind of shake it

701
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 1: kind of shakes you up to like actually consumed for

702
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 1: yourself and then realize, how do you all get that? Yeah?

703
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 1: How did you read that out of it? It is

704
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: really interesting because I'm not even sure if they did

705
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 1: read out of it or if that was the perception

706
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: they had going into it, so they read it through

707
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 1: that lens, and that lens basically you know, changed the

708
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: text in their head to fit that thing. Because yea,

709
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: it is really interesting how how it is so associated

710
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: with like doomeriism um yet if you like engage in

711
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: good faith with the text. It's very much not a

712
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: doomer manifesto anyway, although there are aspects of it that

713
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 1: I am um that I think attitude wise that I

714
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: am critical of, But I think Chris was going to

715
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,760
Speaker 1: say something, yeah. So it's just like I, I really

716
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 1: I've always not liked this book, like read it back

717
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 1: and I think she Dozeneen when it was first sort

718
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 1: of like coming back, and I didn't like it then,

719
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 1: And I re read it this morning, and I like

720
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: it even less now than I did then, and I think,

721
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 1: I think, I actually, I actually okay, So like I

722
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 1: think it's true that most of the text doesn't do

723
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 1: the doom or thing, but I think I understand where

724
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: people got it from, because you know, you have quotes

725
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: in this like uh here, here's one. Yet I can

726
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 1: already hear the accusations from my own camp, accusations of

727
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 1: deserting the cause of revolution, deserting the struggle for another world.

728
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,839
Speaker 1: Such accusations are correct, I would rejoin that such millinarian

729
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: and progressive myths are at the core of the expansion

730
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: of power. And this is this is what I really like,

731
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: I think from an ecological perspective, it's sort of Okay,

732
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 1: I strongly dislike Desert as an anarchist text because I

733
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: think that's just wrong. I think I think, I think

734
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 1: there's there there's there's there's an ingrained defeatism in it

735
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: that is so strong that it it it just it

736
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 1: like warps the author's perception of the past. Like you

737
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 1: get these things where he's talking about these these kind

738
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: of he's talking about like the you know, what you

739
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,760
Speaker 1: call the classical anarchist movement from roughly like eighteen seventy

740
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: two really sort of ends with the defeat of the

741
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 1: anarchists in Spain and like seven and and he you know,

742
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 1: they say things like from Spain pre nineteen thirty six

743
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: to the Jewish anarchists in North America, the illegalist of France,

744
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 1: and the Italian anarchoscentity close to Argentina. The inhabitants of

745
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 1: anarchist counter societies were always, by definition active minorities. The

746
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 1: minorities may have gotten larger in an instructionary moments, but

747
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 1: they remained that minorities always. And that's just wrong, It's

748
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 1: it's factually wrong, like these these movements were not minorities,

749
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 1: like the like the entire like the like the largest

750
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,879
Speaker 1: union in France was the siege like in the early

751
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 1: ante hundred was the you see it that all all

752
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 1: of the French, Spanish and Portuguese country speaking countries have

753
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: a they have one union that's called the u g

754
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: C and one union it's called CGT and I can't

755
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 1: remember which ones which, but like like that was that

756
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 1: was the largest union in France, and it was a

757
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 1: syndicalist union, right like it was like and there's you

758
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 1: know the same thing with Argentina, right for a like

759
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: for a while, was the largest union in Argentina. And

760
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:14,800
Speaker 1: I think and this this is sort of my problem

761
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 1: with this, which is that you know, this is a

762
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 1: person who's basically like they talked about like they were

763
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: born in the seventies and they've they've they're writing the

764
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: steals in eleven in just the midst of the collapse

765
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 1: of sort of like the complete and total destruction of

766
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 1: the old anarchist movement, right, the anarchist movement that had

767
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,760
Speaker 1: been born out of sort of like the Zapatistas and

768
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,800
Speaker 1: the anti globalization movements. And they've been beaten so badly

769
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 1: that you know, I mean, they were crushed, they were

770
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: completely destroyed, and they've been beaten so badly that they

771
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:49,359
Speaker 1: they can't they literally can't imagine winning and think that

772
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: like like revolution in general, like is essentially a secular theology.

773
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 1: They repeat this over and over and over again. It's

774
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 1: like revolution is theology, Revolution is a myth. And it's

775
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 1: like and this is this is something that's just a

776
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: product of of defeat. It's not a product of sort

777
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 1: of taking seriously the conditions that are emerging around them.

778
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 1: And you know, I was talking about this before the recording.

779
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:15,399
Speaker 1: It's like right after this is written, it's you get

780
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 1: the movement of the squares, and then you get occupied,

781
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 1: and it's like basically like every major city in the

782
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 1: world goes into revolt. The revolts are anarchists inspired, and

783
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: you know, and and desert, like this is why dessert

784
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 1: vanishes for like six or seven years, because desert is

785
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,720
Speaker 1: a piece that's written like it's it's it's a piece

786
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: that's that's only happens in a in a very specific

787
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,879
Speaker 1: part of a revolutionary cycle, which is when like every

788
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: everything has been crushed, all resistance has been crushed, everyone's

789
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 1: losing hope, and then everyone starts reading dessert again, and

790
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 1: then the revolutions restart, and and at that point like

791
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 1: once once once, there's like, you know, two thousand people

792
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: in the streets again like fighting the cops. It becomes

793
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 1: less and less sort of like like that, that part

794
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 1: of its analysis becomes less and less relevant until you know,

795
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,280
Speaker 1: inevitably everyone like there's there's a defeat, and then everyone

796
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 1: goes sort of like And I think I think that's

797
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 1: why it has the duomer rep because it's it's it's

798
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: the text that people read when you've been beaten in

799
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 1: the streets. See, yeah, that's that's an interesting look at it,

800
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: because I mean, I definitely agree with the revolution is

801
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 1: an idea, like is a myth thing, like I I

802
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: specifically within the context of the United States, which I

803
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: believe that's what the books trying to mostly focus on.

804
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 1: They do bring up other parts of the world and stuff. Um,

805
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 1: but it's definitely written by in a by an American

806
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: like citizen, and that that that is I mean, I

807
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 1: mean that that could actually be wrong. Um, it may

808
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 1: not be written by an American, but I in terms

809
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: of reading it, it is kind of through like a

810
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 1: very like Western lens of like revolutions not happening here.

811
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: Um And I definitely sympathize and agree with that viewpoint.

812
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: And I mean if if you're in a point of

813
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 1: being like it was two US and eleven then occupied

814
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: happened and like yeah, but occupied in But that that

815
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 1: also fits like every every attempt has not succeeded in

816
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 1: this country did to get any kind of big, meaningful

817
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 1: change that we can push towards something that's like post capitalist. Um. So, yeah,

818
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 1: I mean I do think I think it's it's it's

819
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 1: it's mostly targeting people specifically like communists, um or marks

820
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: Londonists who like are just waiting around for the revolution

821
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 1: to happen and then don't do anything like that, right,

822
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: that is that is the thing that's trying to But

823
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 1: but but but but I think this is this is

824
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 1: why it's a text that's like that's not good for

825
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 1: the moment, because our our problem isn't that, like, like

826
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: the problem right now isn't that there's no one like

827
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,399
Speaker 1: there's no uprising on the horizon, Like everyone's completely beaten down,

828
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 1: no one's ever gonna go into his treats again. Our

829
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 1: problem is that like there's just there's there's there's there's

830
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 1: periodic uprisings everywhere, and every single time everyone is caught

831
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 1: off guard, and every single time, no one is able

832
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 1: to actually sort of mobilize off of it. And you know,

833
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 1: like like like no no one, no one's been able

834
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 1: to like pivoted into something that's actually like transformative. But but

835
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 1: but but I think that that's a very different problem

836
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: then the problem that desert is because desert has already

837
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 1: abandoned the possibility that an uprising can win. That's I mean,

838
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 1: it's yeah. And then let's specifically been the idea of

839
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 1: like global revolution, right, that is, that is the thing

840
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 1: that specifically targeting they're saying smaller specific they're saying like

841
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 1: smaller local things actually can't succeed in a lot of ways.

842
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 1: But they're trying to tie this idea of global revolution

843
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 1: is like a pacifying idea, right, just waiting around for

844
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: this to happen, and tying that to this at the

845
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 1: time much more niche idea. Now it's now it's way

846
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: more popular. But this idea of like global collapse and

847
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 1: how people think if they can people think believing in

848
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: global collapse is smarter than believing in global revolution. They

849
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 1: think it's more realistic but the book saying no, this,

850
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 1: this idea of global collapse actually falls under all the

851
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:57,919
Speaker 1: same issues that global revolution has. I think i'd want

852
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 1: to um sort of comments here um with regard to

853
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 1: like the defeat is sort of reading in the text.

854
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,320
Speaker 1: I understand that reading. Um. I mean personally, I distinguished

855
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 1: been like defeatism and domerism, and I always think like

856
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 1: my own personality and my own perspective kind of like

857
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 1: inoculates me in a way from like adopting that kind

858
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 1: of defeatist attitude towards um, you know, change. But I

859
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 1: don't think the book is entirely um, you know, dismissive

860
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 1: of like revolution. Um. It just I think the main

861
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 1: thrust of it is that it's critical the idea of

862
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:43,919
Speaker 1: like one global revolution, one global collapse. What it really

863
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 1: emphasizes is that, you know, climate change brings new possibilities

864
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: for new anarchies plural to develop worldwide and response changing circumstances.

865
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:58,360
Speaker 1: But at the same time, you know, in some areas

866
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,319
Speaker 1: things are going to get willis and some adious things

867
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 1: are going to get better. And it's not that really

868
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 1: one broadbrush could be applied to the entire earth. Well,

869
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 1: but I think I mean, I think like this, this

870
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 1: is another thing that that they're really guilty of, especially

871
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 1: like there's an entire section in here where they just

872
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 1: keep writing about Africa and it's like well, and then

873
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 1: you know, and they'll get pressed on it and they'll

874
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 1: be like, no, no, we mean sub Saharan Africa, and

875
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 1: it's like what are you talking like? They they won't

876
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 1: name countries, they won't name movements, they won't name people.

877
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 1: It's just they'll just write something about the whole of

878
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 1: Sub Saharan Africa, and it's just like, well, I think

879
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 1: that's evidence of the kind of of what Garrison was

880
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 1: talking about this, right, And this is something you see

881
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 1: all over the place with people writing about politics, with

882
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,919
Speaker 1: people trying to write about like particularly revolutionary politics UM

883
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 1: in a global sense. And I think it's usually a

884
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 1: mistake to do that, UM for the reasons we've kind

885
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 1: of discussed. Any time I see a left wing even

886
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 1: as somebody who I think is generally on point, who

887
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:01,839
Speaker 1: starts talking about, for example, like extending their theories about

888
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 1: revolutionary politics to places I happen to know just a

889
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 1: little bit about, it's always very clear like, oh, you

890
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 1: don't know shit about Syria. Oh you don't know shit

891
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 1: about Libya. Oh you don't know shit about Angle like um.

892
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 1: And that's and that's like not even a moral failing.

893
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 1: It's just that it's impost It's it's impossible really to

894
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: have in depth knowledge of like what's actually going on

895
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 1: in those places and what's going on in those revolutions.

896
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 1: It's why people default so much to the whole. Well,

897
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,280
Speaker 1: whatever side the US is on must be the bad side,

898
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 1: and whatever side the Russians on must be the good side.

899
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 1: It's the easiest way to look at that ship. Um.

900
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 1: I don't I think that's I think that's a worthwhile

901
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 1: critique to make, and it's a critique to make any

902
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 1: time that it happens. Um. I I agree with Garrison

903
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 1: and with Andrew that I think the thing that is

904
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 1: that desert gets right. Um. And the thing that I've

905
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:56,280
Speaker 1: seen in my own life is that like the opportunities

906
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 1: we should be looking for are not suddenly that some

907
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 1: sort of global revolution sweeps all of the things we

908
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 1: don't like out of power and magically institutes something better

909
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 1: comprehensively across the globe. It's it's it's room for little

910
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 1: anarchies it's what we saw in northeast Syria, right where

911
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 1: the government pulls out and people have an opportunity to

912
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 1: do something not perfect, but better. And I think that

913
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:21,839
Speaker 1: is that's kind of one of the things we talked

914
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 1: about a lot on this show. That's why mutual aid

915
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 1: is valuable, It's why building these connections are valuable. It's

916
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 1: because um, as things crumble, there will be opportunities two

917
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 1: in local areas, piecemeal, institute and and push through for

918
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 1: more just and and better ways of living. Um And

919
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 1: I think that if you're looking at kind of the

920
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 1: broad level, potentially optimistic point is that when you have

921
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 1: enough of those and when they spread well enough, and

922
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 1: if communication is good enough, maybe the things that work

923
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 1: will get adopted on a wider scale. And there's always

924
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:00,879
Speaker 1: the opportunity that when enough, when idea is spread far enough,

925
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 1: they have a tipping point and and they go viral,

926
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,760
Speaker 1: you know, so to speak. But I I I don't.

927
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 1: I think that while there's a lot of specifics that

928
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 1: Desert gets wrong, I do think they were ahead of

929
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:14,839
Speaker 1: the curve and recognizing that. And I think it's it's

930
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 1: a more productive way to look at the idea of

931
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 1: revolutionary change than we're going to finally have nineteen seventeen.

932
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 1: But everywhere, you know, throughouts of the African chapter, the

933
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: impression that I got while reading that chapter, and I

934
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 1: think the book itself references Um Samba Um, I got

935
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:42,320
Speaker 1: the impression that the author had read UM Afghan anchism

936
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:46,879
Speaker 1: history of a movement by some member and they were

937
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 1: just kind of like inspired by that. I would see,

938
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 1: because as I do point out, they didn't like specify

939
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 1: the specific cultures, which is an issue considering you know,

940
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 1: the tendency that Western has, how of you know, being

941
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 1: to Africa this large brush as if it's you know,

942
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 1: all one way or the other. Um. But I think

943
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:14,839
Speaker 1: what we do see now, um is you know, from

944
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 1: the Horn of Africa to South Africa to Nigeria too,

945
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:22,919
Speaker 1: I mean recently Sudan. I believe, Um, there are Africans

946
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 1: smaller number organizing under demand of anarchism, and there are

947
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 1: anarchic elements that continue to persist on the continent. Yeah,

948
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 1: I mean I think that's like you know, I mean,

949
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 1: one of the things that they sort of got they

950
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 1: got right, was about how like this the sort of

951
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:42,920
Speaker 1: the the sort of renewal, the spread of urban anarchism

952
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 1: they're talking about like Chile in particular, they got right,

953
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 1: um Indonesia bnglaestra somewhat. But but but I think I

954
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 1: think there's there's another like my, my, my, my, my

955
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 1: biggest issue with them in terms of the way they

956
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 1: think about ecological stuff. This comes this is something they

957
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: talk about with like they have this thing where they

958
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:10,399
Speaker 1: think that forger societies are like, Okay, they're they're they're

959
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:12,799
Speaker 1: they're they're more careful than most people to frame it

960
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 1: as like the forging societies can be a galitarian, but

961
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:20,919
Speaker 1: I think they they wind up talking about these sort

962
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 1: of like the way that sort of forging nomadic society

963
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 1: sort of inherently defy the boundaries of the state, and

964
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: like that's true, but you can also have like nomadic

965
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 1: foraging societies that have that are you know, hereditary slave societies.

966
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 1: And this is this is a problem because there's a

967
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 1: there's a lot in here about that that that's about

968
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 1: sort of like they're, you know, they're they're taking this

969
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 1: a sort of like soft anti se of right. It

970
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:53,360
Speaker 1: has a few liads where it does specifically sayzation is

971
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:55,839
Speaker 1: the cause of like I think it's like the civilization

972
00:53:55,920 --> 00:54:05,239
Speaker 1: is genocide, Um, which yeah, and that can't silly civilizations

973
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 1: commit genocide. Sure, if they're saying that they do cause genocide.

974
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 1: If you're if you're trying to make the case that

975
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 1: it seems to be that civilizations, Uh, well, I don't

976
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 1: know every civilization does not commit genocide, but no, but

977
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:22,880
Speaker 1: civilization gives a constant Yeah, civilization gives you the framework

978
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 1: that makes genocide possible, well, like potentially intentional genocide possible.

979
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:29,800
Speaker 1: I don't know that I would agree with that, because

980
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 1: I think you see examples of genocide from hunter gatherer

981
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 1: societies and from from so positive societies, and that the

982
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 1: obviously documentation on that isn't as extensive because we weren't

983
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 1: documenting things for a lot of it. But you do

984
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:45,920
Speaker 1: have examples from from what we know of, like um,

985
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 1: the Americas of their word, genocides committed by societies we

986
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 1: would call stateless. So I think I might argue that like,

987
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:55,400
Speaker 1: genocide is a thing that human beings do, and civilization,

988
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: because it allows us to do everything on a larger scale,

989
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 1: allows us to do way better. Gennos sides, that's definitely

990
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 1: an art I think. I think my problem with it

991
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 1: is is that they're going back into this sort of

992
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 1: like that they're going back into the you know, there's

993
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 1: this inherent binary between forgers and sal societies and that

994
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:16,799
Speaker 1: you know, and and specifically they think that that that

995
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 1: these sorts that the forger's ideas are you know, inevitably

996
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 1: gonna become a gagalitarian. It's like that's not true, and

997
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 1: it's not true in ways that you can see right

998
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:27,279
Speaker 1: now in like like they're like they're like there are

999
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 1: lots of places right now where you can look at

1000
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 1: you know, forging ancieties that are incredibly right. Like there's

1001
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 1: there's like, for example, you you get sort of you

1002
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 1: get the Filani joining like right wing Islamas groups, right

1003
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 1: and that like that kind of thing. I think it

1004
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:50,840
Speaker 1: has a problem with It's the same thing as looking

1005
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:55,439
Speaker 1: at indigenous societies and and seeing them all on one

1006
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:58,840
Speaker 1: side of the fight with with colonizing nations as supposed.

1007
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 1: I'm reading a book about the history the mapoo Chay

1008
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 1: right now, which are historically like the indigenous group in

1009
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:07,919
Speaker 1: Chile that resisted the law, in the indigenous group really

1010
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 1: and in you could argue in all of Latin America

1011
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 1: that resisted the longest and most effectively. But even then,

1012
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:14,800
Speaker 1: when you look at like the campaigns of the Chilean

1013
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 1: government in the eighteen sixties and eighteen eighties, large like

1014
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 1: significant chunks of the mapoo Chay sided with the government

1015
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:23,960
Speaker 1: against other Mapouchay and like that's the like, it's it's

1016
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:25,960
Speaker 1: always a mistake. I think this is a good one

1017
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 1: of the things that you get out of the dawn

1018
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:29,600
Speaker 1: of everything. It's always a mistake to like look at

1019
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 1: any of these groups hunter gatherers, stateless societies is like

1020
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:36,239
Speaker 1: one thing or another. They're people and some of them

1021
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:41,799
Speaker 1: sucked just like yeah, they're yeah anyway, Yeah, there's there's

1022
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:44,920
Speaker 1: one thing that I wanted to sort of pushback against. Uh.

1023
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:49,879
Speaker 1: ROBBERTI had said that genocide is a thing that humans do. Um.

1024
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 1: I don't think I agree with that assessment, um in

1025
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:56,840
Speaker 1: this sense, or at least i'd rather I would like

1026
00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 1: to clarify. Um, Well, give you an opportunity to clarify

1027
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 1: what you mean by that. I you know, I don't

1028
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:05,640
Speaker 1: know that it's just humans, but I think that genocide

1029
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:08,880
Speaker 1: is a thing that as long as we have evidence

1030
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:11,759
Speaker 1: in recorded history, it seems like we have done not

1031
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 1: just against are not just against other humans, but against

1032
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:19,120
Speaker 1: other kind of hominid species. We have we have examples

1033
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:23,200
Speaker 1: of things that it seems fair to call genocide, going

1034
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 1: back further than we have any kinds of written records. Um,

1035
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 1: you know, villages in the Balkans that were you know,

1036
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:32,960
Speaker 1: burnt in people who like groups of people, tribes and whatnot,

1037
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:36,080
Speaker 1: who seem to have been killed in mass And you know,

1038
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 1: there's there's other theories for some of that. Some of

1039
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 1: them may have been like people trying to stop a

1040
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 1: place we don't plague or whatever. Like, there's not any

1041
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 1: kind of comprehensive solidity. But what we do know is

1042
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 1: that as long as we have documentations of humans doing things,

1043
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:52,240
Speaker 1: we have documentations of things that we could call genocide.

1044
00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 1: I see, I see, look look into that a bit more.

1045
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 1: I appreciate the glarification. Yeah, can I can I do

1046
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 1: a Balkans pivot, because there's a there's a there's a

1047
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 1: thing like like a genuinely disturbed me reading it in

1048
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 1: here about the Serbs d during the Bosnian genocide. Were

1049
00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 1: so that they they're they're quoting disturbing about that. Oh yeah,

1050
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 1: but this is this is a I I uh okay,

1051
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 1: So they're they're they're doing they're they're reading a quote

1052
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 1: from the book Gypsies, Wars and Other Instances of the

1053
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 1: Wild where he's talking this is about the Boston genocide.

1054
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 1: How is this possible in Europe at the end of

1055
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:35,040
Speaker 1: the twentieth century was the question that played obsessively through

1056
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 1: my mind. What the war in former Yugoslavia forced us

1057
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:40,520
Speaker 1: to suggest the fact that people proved willing to make

1058
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:44,200
Speaker 1: a conscious and active choice to embrace regression, barbarity and

1059
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 1: return to the wildness. Take the serve fighters who dreamed

1060
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 1: of a return to the serby of the epic poems

1061
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:54,760
Speaker 1: were quote there was no electricity, no computers, when the

1062
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 1: serves were happy and had no cities, the breeding ground

1063
00:58:57,240 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 1: of all evil. And then this is this is the

1064
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:02,440
Speaker 1: next uh thing? That's that's the text coming back and

1065
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:06,400
Speaker 1: commenting on it that some modern day militias reflect romantic

1066
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 1: and desires while shelling towns, massacring villages, and being killed

1067
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:15,160
Speaker 1: in turn should neither surprise us nor necessarily fully invalidate romance.

1068
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:19,280
Speaker 1: It does, however, suggest, along with the honest expression of

1069
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:22,040
Speaker 1: joy and destruction mouth by some soldiers in every war,

1070
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 1: as well as many anarchists, that there is a coupling

1071
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:26,960
Speaker 1: of some store between a generalized urge to destroy and

1072
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:30,280
Speaker 1: a disgust at a complex human society. And there's there's

1073
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:33,240
Speaker 1: there's another part um only later on they're talking about

1074
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:38,560
Speaker 1: ethnic diversity, and autonomy will often emerge both from mutual

1075
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 1: aid and community and animosity between communities. I'd like to think,

1076
00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 1: and our histories back this up, that self adantified anarchists

1077
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 1: will never inflict such pain as Serb nationalist militias, an

1078
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:50,439
Speaker 1: example I shows purposely for the Repugnicans. But we should

1079
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 1: admit that our wish to function up is partly driven

1080
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 1: by the same urge to civilizational dismemberment that can be

1081
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 1: found in many inter ethnic conflicts and in the minds

1082
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:02,400
Speaker 1: of fighters more general. And I think that's fucked. I

1083
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:09,840
Speaker 1: think that's true. That's just I think there's commenting a

1084
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 1: specific type of anarchist literature, which is like the make

1085
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 1: total destroy thing. And yeah, I definitely I have observed

1086
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:19,400
Speaker 1: that in people the same the same urge that you're

1087
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:25,440
Speaker 1: you're so broken down by everything that the only urge

1088
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:27,920
Speaker 1: that is the only creative urge you have is to

1089
01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:32,000
Speaker 1: destroy the things around you. I've seen that. I don't

1090
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:35,440
Speaker 1: think they're necessarily celebrating that, but they're pointing out that

1091
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:37,880
Speaker 1: that urge can be there. When I when I think

1092
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:40,560
Speaker 1: they get really wrong here is that I don't think

1093
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:43,120
Speaker 1: that's the urge that that is is like that, that's

1094
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:45,200
Speaker 1: when when when you're dealing with inter ethnic conflict, when

1095
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 1: you're dealing with genocie, I don't think that's the urge

1096
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:50,760
Speaker 1: that's going on. It's spectically with the Serb because the Serbs,

1097
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:53,200
Speaker 1: like you know, okay, like when when when an anarchist

1098
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 1: is doing make total destroy right there, you know there

1099
01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:58,200
Speaker 1: like there, there's there's a very specific set of things

1100
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:00,400
Speaker 1: you're attacking or they're you know, they're attacking building, attacking

1101
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 1: the physical infrastructure of the world. When the Serbs are

1102
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:05,160
Speaker 1: doing the Bosnian genocide, like that, they have a very

1103
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:07,840
Speaker 1: specific thing they're doing, which is killing Bosnian Muslims. And

1104
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:14,440
Speaker 1: I think that's extremely different urge than the sort of

1105
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:16,360
Speaker 1: like I don't I don't think that's about sort of

1106
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:20,800
Speaker 1: what it's civilizational dismemberment or whatever. That's about Islamophobia and genocide.

1107
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:24,680
Speaker 1: And I think that's a different I think the genocidal

1108
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:27,760
Speaker 1: impulse is a I think, a very different one than

1109
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:31,280
Speaker 1: the sort of the like the impulse to break the

1110
01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:34,120
Speaker 1: society that has harmed you. Yeah, I think it's important

1111
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:36,960
Speaker 1: to draw a distinction between you can kill a shipload

1112
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:40,720
Speaker 1: of people without it being a genocide. UM. And I

1113
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:42,840
Speaker 1: think and it's also one of those things I think

1114
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 1: sometimes why people I think why there's hesitation to see

1115
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:49,560
Speaker 1: certain acts and early history of genocide is that they're

1116
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:52,040
Speaker 1: not as complete as modern genocide. But but what a

1117
01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 1: genocide really is, and I think it's important to lay

1118
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:57,240
Speaker 1: this out. It's not necessarily killing every member of an

1119
01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:00,760
Speaker 1: ethnic group or a religious group or whatever kind of community. UM.

1120
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 1: It is stopping their ability to propagate and continue themselves.

1121
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:08,440
Speaker 1: That's why things like destroying churches and destroying the cultural

1122
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:11,520
Speaker 1: distroyal markers are part of genocide. And it's also why

1123
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:14,080
Speaker 1: a lot of genocides they left the women and children alive.

1124
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:15,720
Speaker 1: They would kill all the men, and they would take

1125
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:17,200
Speaker 1: the women in and they would breed with them. They

1126
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:19,280
Speaker 1: might kill the kids sometimes, but it was this The

1127
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 1: goal was not necessarily were we need to kill all

1128
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:24,080
Speaker 1: of you, It's we want to kill this this culture,

1129
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:29,920
Speaker 1: this population. UM. I think the I think the Yeah,

1130
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:32,280
Speaker 1: I think the parallel he's trying to make here or

1131
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:37,680
Speaker 1: there or she U is that that like that type

1132
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:43,240
Speaker 1: of like genocidal cultural destruction is targeted against specific groups.

1133
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:46,320
Speaker 1: The difference here is with this type of like you know,

1134
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 1: he's he's writing this for other anarchists. He's pointing out,

1135
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:53,600
Speaker 1: like our destructive urge, our cultural urge isn't even for

1136
01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 1: a specific group, it's just for everything, and that can

1137
01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 1: be unhealthy sometimes sometimes you know, there's ways to do

1138
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:02,880
Speaker 1: a total destroy that's totally fine, but that can go

1139
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:06,800
Speaker 1: to unhealthy places. Now, he's not equating like ethnic cleansing

1140
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:09,640
Speaker 1: with that. He's like they are like they are different.

1141
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:14,760
Speaker 1: But when when your total destroy urges against all of culture,

1142
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:18,160
Speaker 1: then yeah, that that can like that's something you should

1143
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:21,800
Speaker 1: probably ponder. Yeah, I mean that's definitely I would agree

1144
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:24,640
Speaker 1: that that's the thing that's potentially problematic, right, like with

1145
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:27,800
Speaker 1: a number of different desires, Uh, there's a way in

1146
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:31,360
Speaker 1: which that can lead to people doing really fucked up things. Yeah,

1147
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 1: It's like it's like it's pointing out that that type

1148
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:38,240
Speaker 1: of accelerationism not specific to ideology, but just like accelerationism

1149
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:41,200
Speaker 1: in general. I mean I think when I when I

1150
01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:43,640
Speaker 1: talk about things like the fact that because not every

1151
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:47,720
Speaker 1: culture commits genocides and every civil civilization does UM, and

1152
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:50,160
Speaker 1: throughout history there have been more that found the idea

1153
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:53,600
Speaker 1: repugnant than found the idea acceptable UM. But it is

1154
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:57,160
Speaker 1: really a consistent thing in history, And I think the

1155
01:03:57,240 --> 01:04:00,680
Speaker 1: lesson with that isn't necessarily that everything could end in genocide.

1156
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:02,680
Speaker 1: So I don't think the lesson is necessarily like, oh,

1157
01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:05,720
Speaker 1: you should look at make total destroys if you know

1158
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:08,640
Speaker 1: the this kind of trend in anarchist thought could lead

1159
01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:12,680
Speaker 1: to genocide. It's that people in groups are nearly always

1160
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:15,400
Speaker 1: capable of killing a shipload of other people for a

1161
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:19,280
Speaker 1: variety of reasons if applied in the proper ways, And

1162
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:22,400
Speaker 1: so those of us who seek mass movement should always

1163
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:25,840
Speaker 1: be conscious of that, because human beings in large groups

1164
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:28,320
Speaker 1: can do wonderful things, but there's a long history of

1165
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:30,960
Speaker 1: them doing really fucked up shit, sometimes in ways that

1166
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:33,360
Speaker 1: surprised the people that got the large group of human

1167
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:36,000
Speaker 1: beings together in the first place. The other thing I

1168
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:38,760
Speaker 1: wanted to bring up is kind of more circling back

1169
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:42,040
Speaker 1: to the Dumer kind of idea UM, because yeah, a

1170
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:45,080
Speaker 1: big part of the book is trying purposely is to

1171
01:04:45,160 --> 01:04:49,440
Speaker 1: dissolution people with this idea of global revolution and disolution

1172
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:51,000
Speaker 1: people with the idea that we can save the earth

1173
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:54,760
Speaker 1: because we can't UM. So that's a big thing. And

1174
01:04:55,160 --> 01:04:57,600
Speaker 1: for I think, I think for some people, if you

1175
01:04:57,720 --> 01:05:01,160
Speaker 1: stop right there and you that's how you and that thought, yes,

1176
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:03,720
Speaker 1: that does lead to numeriism obviously, like that that is,

1177
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:06,640
Speaker 1: that is, but the books, the book doesn't stop there.

1178
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:10,320
Speaker 1: The book continues on from there. Now they continue on

1179
01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:14,080
Speaker 1: from a nihilistic standpoint. I'm not a nihilist. I prefer certinism.

1180
01:05:14,160 --> 01:05:17,600
Speaker 1: I prefer discordinism. But those two things are pretty common.

1181
01:05:17,720 --> 01:05:21,840
Speaker 1: Like there, they are more similar than not. Um is

1182
01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:25,000
Speaker 1: that you can be disillusioned with global revolution and the

1183
01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:28,000
Speaker 1: idea to save the earth, but that should not change

1184
01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:33,080
Speaker 1: what we do or how we feel or operate as anarchists.

1185
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:37,440
Speaker 1: It's not that we should be disillusioned and then do

1186
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:40,600
Speaker 1: nothing and step aside. That we should be disillusioned and

1187
01:05:40,640 --> 01:05:45,920
Speaker 1: then find that disillusionment itself a form of liberation, like

1188
01:05:46,040 --> 01:05:49,880
Speaker 1: the freeing nature of being free from this idea of revolution.

1189
01:05:50,200 --> 01:05:52,000
Speaker 1: Is that like no, we are living our lives now,

1190
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:55,320
Speaker 1: don't live for a revolution, live your life now, and

1191
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:59,200
Speaker 1: do things now because that's what you actually have. So

1192
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:03,160
Speaker 1: it's like that type of nihilistic, absurdist, discordian things. This is,

1193
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:04,480
Speaker 1: this is this is This is where I come back

1194
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:06,160
Speaker 1: to having problems with it again because this this is

1195
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:10,640
Speaker 1: literally just there is no alternative except it's it's yeah

1196
01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 1: and that do energy. I mean, but that's how I

1197
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:17,880
Speaker 1: live like that. I think I think this is a

1198
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:19,880
Speaker 1: bad I think that's a bad plan. And I think

1199
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:21,880
Speaker 1: if if you look, if you look at what happens

1200
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:24,360
Speaker 1: with because you know, this, this was the thing that

1201
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:27,200
Speaker 1: was really big in the American anarchist movement, like in

1202
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:30,360
Speaker 1: you know, from about just and seventeen like roughly now,

1203
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:35,120
Speaker 1: and it's like people were rising too. Yeah that didn't

1204
01:06:35,120 --> 01:06:37,640
Speaker 1: succeed like that, like not really like but I think

1205
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:40,120
Speaker 1: like like this is like I think, I think this

1206
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:43,040
Speaker 1: is like like one of the reasons it didn't, we

1207
01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:45,560
Speaker 1: were like, Okay, this is like the thing that's important.

1208
01:06:45,560 --> 01:06:46,920
Speaker 1: One of the things is the important of revolutions, even

1209
01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:49,880
Speaker 1: when they don't succeed, is that for a very brief

1210
01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:52,880
Speaker 1: window you actually can like it becomes it becomes possible

1211
01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:56,680
Speaker 1: to imagine another world, and what what what this entire

1212
01:06:56,720 --> 01:06:59,040
Speaker 1: thing is saying is don't do that. That's not that's

1213
01:06:59,080 --> 01:07:02,640
Speaker 1: not that's that is not what it is. Absolutely this

1214
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:07,080
Speaker 1: is no no, okay, can face the sentence, Yeah, like yeah, okay,

1215
01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:09,360
Speaker 1: so what what what what? What I'm saying here is

1216
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:13,800
Speaker 1: that what what they've abandoned, right, the thing that they're

1217
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:16,000
Speaker 1: giving up when when they give up revolution, when they're like,

1218
01:07:16,040 --> 01:07:20,720
Speaker 1: this is a progressive myth, this is like theology. What

1219
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:25,160
Speaker 1: what they've abandoned completely is our human capacity to actually

1220
01:07:25,240 --> 01:07:29,200
Speaker 1: shape a different world. What they're arguing is that, like

1221
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:32,800
Speaker 1: the the you know, this essentially, that the combination of

1222
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:37,880
Speaker 1: ecological and social forces are strong enough that humans humans

1223
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:41,480
Speaker 1: no longer have the capacity to reshape the world into

1224
01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:44,640
Speaker 1: a way that is different than this, and that this

1225
01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:47,000
Speaker 1: is now the eternal presence, and you know and and yeah,

1226
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:49,160
Speaker 1: inside of the eternal present, they're saying, you should be

1227
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:50,720
Speaker 1: fighting for the same things you should be fighting for,

1228
01:07:51,640 --> 01:07:53,400
Speaker 1: like you know, you should you should be in your

1229
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:57,000
Speaker 1: own sort of local domain. You should be like, I mean,

1230
01:07:57,120 --> 01:08:00,400
Speaker 1: there're so of the recommendations are wild, Like I think

1231
01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:05,680
Speaker 1: I think their conservation stuff is sketchy, given I mean,

1232
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:09,120
Speaker 1: it doesn't. But it doesn't apply to an eternal present though,

1233
01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:12,080
Speaker 1: Like they lay out, like the world is changing a

1234
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:14,160
Speaker 1: lot and will for the next fifty years, Like there

1235
01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:16,800
Speaker 1: will be massive changes and how things are set up

1236
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:19,320
Speaker 1: in the next like in the next century, and we

1237
01:08:19,439 --> 01:08:21,559
Speaker 1: need to take advantage of that. We need to turn

1238
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:26,320
Speaker 1: those liabilities into assets and start making those little anarchies

1239
01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:28,160
Speaker 1: like that. That that is what it's trying to do.

1240
01:08:29,320 --> 01:08:32,439
Speaker 1: And I would add as well that as it points

1241
01:08:32,479 --> 01:08:36,400
Speaker 1: out the situations in Bassic, Stooke and Bangladesh, a difference

1242
01:08:36,400 --> 01:08:38,880
Speaker 1: in the present and will be in the future. You know.

1243
01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:41,240
Speaker 1: What I think is is trying to be sort of

1244
01:08:42,720 --> 01:08:46,200
Speaker 1: drilled in here is that at least in the text

1245
01:08:46,280 --> 01:08:50,599
Speaker 1: and how I read it, UM, is that yes, things

1246
01:08:50,680 --> 01:08:52,760
Speaker 1: will be different in different parts of the wood, and

1247
01:08:54,120 --> 01:08:56,559
Speaker 1: probably maybe they won't be this, you know or as

1248
01:08:56,640 --> 01:08:58,720
Speaker 1: the what this is, they won't be you know, this

1249
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:05,120
Speaker 1: one global revolution. But at the end of the day, Um,

1250
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:09,120
Speaker 1: I think what it's trying to emphasize is that we

1251
01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:11,040
Speaker 1: don't have the structures. And I think what part of

1252
01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:12,320
Speaker 1: what is trying to emphasize is that we don't have

1253
01:09:12,320 --> 01:09:14,880
Speaker 1: its structures in place right now to launch an instruction

1254
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:17,680
Speaker 1: we can meaningfully defend. And so that is the sort

1255
01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:21,320
Speaker 1: of thing we should be focusing on. But but they,

1256
01:09:21,400 --> 01:09:23,360
Speaker 1: but they, but this this this, this is going back

1257
01:09:23,360 --> 01:09:24,960
Speaker 1: to my problem with it, going going back to the

1258
01:09:25,040 --> 01:09:27,639
Speaker 1: thing where they go on the rant about how anarchists

1259
01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:30,040
Speaker 1: are like a permanent cultural majority and will never become

1260
01:09:30,360 --> 01:09:33,880
Speaker 1: a majority. Is that even even in situations where people

1261
01:09:33,960 --> 01:09:36,160
Speaker 1: had that capacity and did it they go back, they

1262
01:09:36,240 --> 01:09:38,160
Speaker 1: project back onto it, go no, no, no, no, they

1263
01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:41,160
Speaker 1: couldn't have done that. Like it's it's not about it's

1264
01:09:41,240 --> 01:09:43,640
Speaker 1: it's it's they they have a belief and this is

1265
01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:46,040
Speaker 1: something that they do explicitly say that that anarchist will

1266
01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:49,559
Speaker 1: always be a permanent minority. Right there, There will always

1267
01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:52,200
Speaker 1: be an active but permanent minority. And that is the

1268
01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:57,839
Speaker 1: like like that specifically, I think is just an actual

1269
01:09:57,920 --> 01:10:01,760
Speaker 1: rejection of the belief that we collectively can make a

1270
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:04,760
Speaker 1: better future. Because if if if you think that our

1271
01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:08,280
Speaker 1: ideas that you know, if being free, right, if if

1272
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:12,280
Speaker 1: a society, if you think that that is permanently always

1273
01:10:12,360 --> 01:10:15,360
Speaker 1: going to be a minority, you are you know, you

1274
01:10:15,479 --> 01:10:21,120
Speaker 1: are condemning you're condemning the future to the people who

1275
01:10:21,160 --> 01:10:26,479
Speaker 1: don't believe that, and and I I understand why, especially

1276
01:10:26,760 --> 01:10:28,479
Speaker 1: if you know, if, if, if, if the only thing

1277
01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:31,760
Speaker 1: you've ever known is fifty years of when the new

1278
01:10:31,840 --> 01:10:34,439
Speaker 1: Liberals actually did the thing right. They took over the

1279
01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:38,120
Speaker 1: entire world, restructure of the entire world economy, seized every government.

1280
01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:41,120
Speaker 1: Like if if that's what you lived through, I understand

1281
01:10:41,160 --> 01:10:43,760
Speaker 1: why you would think that. But I think the fact

1282
01:10:43,840 --> 01:10:46,599
Speaker 1: that it was possible to do it from the other

1283
01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:48,920
Speaker 1: direction is in some ways a sense that like, yeah,

1284
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:51,280
Speaker 1: we could do it too. I don't know, Sorry, I

1285
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:54,040
Speaker 1: will stop harping on this one specific point. It just

1286
01:10:54,280 --> 01:10:57,240
Speaker 1: extremely annoys me. I think it's not giving up the

1287
01:10:57,320 --> 01:11:00,920
Speaker 1: idea that the world can be better. It's that we

1288
01:11:01,040 --> 01:11:04,080
Speaker 1: don't need to have the majority of people be anarchists

1289
01:11:04,160 --> 01:11:06,320
Speaker 1: to make the world better. We can still spread our

1290
01:11:06,360 --> 01:11:09,120
Speaker 1: own anarchies and people don't need to self subscribe as anarchists.

1291
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:12,080
Speaker 1: But as long as we start building those systems in

1292
01:11:12,160 --> 01:11:15,000
Speaker 1: the places around us, people start using them, and people

1293
01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:17,559
Speaker 1: might start like living them out, even if they don't

1294
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:20,280
Speaker 1: call themselves anarchists. Right, Like, the majority of people will

1295
01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:24,439
Speaker 1: probably prefer some some type of state or government. Right.

1296
01:11:24,479 --> 01:11:26,360
Speaker 1: You can even look at Rosa and be like, yeah,

1297
01:11:26,360 --> 01:11:28,960
Speaker 1: it's still is state issue in some ways, but some

1298
01:11:29,080 --> 01:11:32,040
Speaker 1: ways not right, Like it's it's it's going We're not

1299
01:11:32,120 --> 01:11:34,920
Speaker 1: going to get an anarchist world. That's not going to happen,

1300
01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:37,559
Speaker 1: but we can make it better through the lens of anarchy.

1301
01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:39,840
Speaker 1: And I think that's what it's kind of trying to say. Yeah,

1302
01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:43,439
Speaker 1: I I think it's it's worth acknowledging that, like, yeah,

1303
01:11:43,760 --> 01:11:45,920
Speaker 1: the majority of people are never going to be what

1304
01:11:46,080 --> 01:11:50,320
Speaker 1: anarchists are right now, which is people who comprehensively reject

1305
01:11:50,479 --> 01:11:52,519
Speaker 1: the systems they live in. Most people are always going

1306
01:11:52,600 --> 01:11:55,799
Speaker 1: to think more like well, I want to be comfortable.

1307
01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:57,960
Speaker 1: I want to I support changes kind of that that,

1308
01:11:58,360 --> 01:12:00,280
Speaker 1: you know, fix this thing that I've noticed a problem

1309
01:12:00,400 --> 01:12:02,560
Speaker 1: or that thing. Most people are never going to comprehensively

1310
01:12:02,640 --> 01:12:05,800
Speaker 1: reject the system. But I do have hope that in

1311
01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:09,800
Speaker 1: time and given you know, space to build things and

1312
01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:13,080
Speaker 1: show people other ways and improve life for people, you

1313
01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:16,040
Speaker 1: can get to a point where most people believe a

1314
01:12:16,120 --> 01:12:18,439
Speaker 1: lot of the things that I think are important. Yeah,

1315
01:12:18,479 --> 01:12:22,519
Speaker 1: and I think that's what's time. I think that's sorry.

1316
01:12:23,120 --> 01:12:26,600
Speaker 1: I think that's what the as specificitis UM tend to

1317
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:30,000
Speaker 1: advocate for in terms of through the process of social

1318
01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:35,519
Speaker 1: institution in these larger movements, generalizing the ideas of anarchist

1319
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:38,760
Speaker 1: ideas as a whole, making them more common throughout the population.

1320
01:12:39,200 --> 01:12:41,320
Speaker 1: It's only trying to get each and every boost in

1321
01:12:41,360 --> 01:12:45,200
Speaker 1: the world to self identify as an anarchist, communists or whatever.

1322
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:49,479
Speaker 1: It's more so that you're trying to spread these ideas

1323
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:54,280
Speaker 1: to the point where they are. I suppose the common

1324
01:12:54,400 --> 01:12:59,559
Speaker 1: sentiment the popular will yeah, like I it's it's um,

1325
01:13:00,000 --> 01:13:02,360
Speaker 1: it's like the point of culture jamming and and and

1326
01:13:02,479 --> 01:13:05,400
Speaker 1: ship like that, Like it's the the idea that like

1327
01:13:05,479 --> 01:13:09,200
Speaker 1: it doesn't so much matter, like like like what matters

1328
01:13:09,280 --> 01:13:12,280
Speaker 1: is inserting the things you think are important into the

1329
01:13:12,360 --> 01:13:15,360
Speaker 1: culture and getting people to identify with them and understand them.

1330
01:13:16,240 --> 01:13:19,759
Speaker 1: The terms that they specifically use aren't aren't as important,

1331
01:13:19,960 --> 01:13:23,600
Speaker 1: like that that's not really what matters. Well, okay, I

1332
01:13:23,920 --> 01:13:26,680
Speaker 1: don't think they're arguing that though, because I mean, like

1333
01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:28,880
Speaker 1: do they have lines like this. We cannot, however, remake

1334
01:13:28,960 --> 01:13:30,599
Speaker 1: the entire world. There are not enough of us, there

1335
01:13:30,680 --> 01:13:32,439
Speaker 1: never will be. But then you know, they like they

1336
01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:34,880
Speaker 1: they they specifically talk about the oh well, they don't

1337
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:37,519
Speaker 1: have to all be anarchists, and you know. I mean,

1338
01:13:37,720 --> 01:13:40,240
Speaker 1: here's their line. There is unfortunately little little evidence from

1339
01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:42,439
Speaker 1: history that the working class, never mind anyone else, is

1340
01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:47,120
Speaker 1: intrinsically predisposed to libertarian ecological revolution thousands of years of

1341
01:13:47,160 --> 01:13:50,519
Speaker 1: authoritarian socialization favor of the jack boot. Neither we nor

1342
01:13:50,640 --> 01:13:54,320
Speaker 1: anyone else could create a libertarian or global or ecological

1343
01:13:54,360 --> 01:13:57,519
Speaker 1: global future by expanding social movements further. There is no

1344
01:13:57,600 --> 01:13:59,479
Speaker 1: reason to think that, in the absence of such a

1345
01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:02,200
Speaker 1: vast ex bance and global transformation concurrent to our desires

1346
01:14:02,240 --> 01:14:05,439
Speaker 1: will ever happen. I think I think, I think the

1347
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:07,800
Speaker 1: keyword there is global, Like, yeah, that's they're trying to

1348
01:14:07,880 --> 01:14:10,000
Speaker 1: break with that, and it's important, Like they're writing this

1349
01:14:10,320 --> 01:14:14,000
Speaker 1: specifically for anarchists who are kind of already nihilistic, kind

1350
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:16,360
Speaker 1: of already anti sif right, They are writing this for

1351
01:14:16,479 --> 01:14:19,920
Speaker 1: other anarchists, that this isn't a book to radicalize a

1352
01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:24,160
Speaker 1: normy or a communist by anarchists for other anarchists to

1353
01:14:24,200 --> 01:14:26,920
Speaker 1: be like, Hey, you already kind of think the world's

1354
01:14:27,320 --> 01:14:29,920
Speaker 1: kind of going to ship. Here's a way that we

1355
01:14:30,040 --> 01:14:35,920
Speaker 1: can still do things despite the world being shitty. Because

1356
01:14:36,120 --> 01:14:39,800
Speaker 1: once you're once you're disillusioned, it's hard to be illusioned again.

1357
01:14:40,240 --> 01:14:42,120
Speaker 1: Like it's it's hard once you give up on the

1358
01:14:42,200 --> 01:14:45,519
Speaker 1: idea of global revolution, once you give up the idea

1359
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:48,080
Speaker 1: of global collapse, it's hard to re enter those even

1360
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:50,160
Speaker 1: if you see things happening the world, like there can

1361
01:14:50,200 --> 01:14:53,720
Speaker 1: still be uprisings and revolts, absolutely, but there is a

1362
01:14:53,840 --> 01:14:57,000
Speaker 1: distinction of between uprising and the revolts, and like a

1363
01:14:57,120 --> 01:15:01,160
Speaker 1: global revolution, right and specifically, like the Marxist letters to sounds,

1364
01:15:02,320 --> 01:15:05,880
Speaker 1: And I'd also like to um continue the paragraph you're

1365
01:15:05,880 --> 01:15:08,880
Speaker 1: reading from there. We had said that as anarchists, sweet,

1366
01:15:09,200 --> 01:15:11,520
Speaker 1: he had said, or they had said that, as anarchists,

1367
01:15:11,560 --> 01:15:13,960
Speaker 1: we are not the seed of the future society in

1368
01:15:14,000 --> 01:15:16,240
Speaker 1: the shell of the old, but merely one of many

1369
01:15:16,320 --> 01:15:20,439
Speaker 1: elements from which the future is forming. That's okay, when

1370
01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:23,439
Speaker 1: faced with such scale and complexity, there is value in

1371
01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:26,240
Speaker 1: non cervile humility, even for in such Yeah, but this

1372
01:15:26,320 --> 01:15:27,800
Speaker 1: is this is just this is just giving up. This

1373
01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:30,360
Speaker 1: is this is the old. It's too complicated, it's too

1374
01:15:30,520 --> 01:15:33,360
Speaker 1: like and like I think, I don't know, like it's

1375
01:15:33,439 --> 01:15:36,920
Speaker 1: it's it's it's giving up on it's giving up on

1376
01:15:37,080 --> 01:15:40,280
Speaker 1: trying to do any kind of on on like humans

1377
01:15:40,360 --> 01:15:42,599
Speaker 1: as a whole trying to do any kind of large

1378
01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:47,760
Speaker 1: scale like you know, like it's trying to do transformation

1379
01:15:47,880 --> 01:15:49,960
Speaker 1: of what the society. I disagree to continue that that

1380
01:15:50,120 --> 01:15:53,600
Speaker 1: coote to give up hoope. For global anarchists, revolution is

1381
01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:56,839
Speaker 1: not to resign oneself to anarchy, remaining any to protest.

1382
01:15:57,320 --> 01:16:00,719
Speaker 1: Seaweed puts it well. Revolution is not everywhere or nowhere.

1383
01:16:01,080 --> 01:16:03,960
Speaker 1: Any bioregion can be liberated through a succession of events

1384
01:16:04,000 --> 01:16:07,120
Speaker 1: and strategies based in the conditions unique to it, mostly

1385
01:16:07,200 --> 01:16:09,519
Speaker 1: as the grip of facilitation. That area weakens through its

1386
01:16:09,560 --> 01:16:13,160
Speaker 1: own volition for the efforts of its inhabitants. So aization

1387
01:16:13,200 --> 01:16:15,759
Speaker 1: didn't succeed everytones, and so it's undoing might only occur

1388
01:16:16,080 --> 01:16:19,639
Speaker 1: to varying degrees in different places at different times. Even

1389
01:16:19,680 --> 01:16:22,160
Speaker 1: if an area is seemingly fully under the control of authority,

1390
01:16:22,439 --> 01:16:24,640
Speaker 1: there always places to go to live in, to love in,

1391
01:16:24,760 --> 01:16:27,959
Speaker 1: and to resist from, and we can extend those spaces.

1392
01:16:28,439 --> 01:16:31,320
Speaker 1: The global situation may seem beyond us, but the local

1393
01:16:31,439 --> 01:16:36,080
Speaker 1: never is. And I think that's beautiful. I think that's

1394
01:16:36,120 --> 01:16:38,560
Speaker 1: like a That's one of the things that keeps me

1395
01:16:38,640 --> 01:16:42,200
Speaker 1: alive is ideas like that. Honestly, and at the same time.

1396
01:16:42,520 --> 01:16:48,160
Speaker 1: I also hold the opinion that none of us, including

1397
01:16:48,200 --> 01:16:51,599
Speaker 1: this author, is a fortune teller. You know. The desert's

1398
01:16:51,600 --> 01:16:55,320
Speaker 1: picture of the future is not the only possibility, you know.

1399
01:16:55,600 --> 01:16:57,519
Speaker 1: And I think in a lot of ways and a

1400
01:16:57,560 --> 01:17:02,439
Speaker 1: lot of always I believe that they can and have

1401
01:17:02,680 --> 01:17:07,439
Speaker 1: already been proven wrong, you know. Like, and there's an

1402
01:17:07,479 --> 01:17:09,360
Speaker 1: issue that I really take a lot of contention with

1403
01:17:09,439 --> 01:17:11,400
Speaker 1: the book. Part of the book that really pisces me

1404
01:17:11,479 --> 01:17:17,080
Speaker 1: off is the sort of persistence of the overpopulation myth.

1405
01:17:18,200 --> 01:17:20,679
Speaker 1: I don't remember it being so consistent since I reread

1406
01:17:20,720 --> 01:17:24,360
Speaker 1: it um a couple of weeks ago. And so this

1407
01:17:24,439 --> 01:17:27,640
Speaker 1: sort of nonchalance the author seems to have about like

1408
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:30,320
Speaker 1: mass die offs and that kind of thing, you know,

1409
01:17:30,400 --> 01:17:33,519
Speaker 1: I think that's very troubling to me. That's very specific

1410
01:17:33,640 --> 01:17:36,360
Speaker 1: to It's a type of anti civil literature that's like

1411
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:41,240
Speaker 1: we view civilization is going to progress towards genocide anyway,

1412
01:17:41,640 --> 01:17:44,800
Speaker 1: and the way to actually avoid more deaths is to

1413
01:17:44,960 --> 01:17:48,280
Speaker 1: kind of help the collapse along because that will end

1414
01:17:48,360 --> 01:17:51,080
Speaker 1: civilization quicker. So therefore less people, less people will be born,

1415
01:17:51,080 --> 01:17:53,360
Speaker 1: and less people will have to die. So that's the

1416
01:17:53,439 --> 01:17:55,960
Speaker 1: type of thinking they have. I don't necessarily agree with

1417
01:17:56,080 --> 01:18:01,400
Speaker 1: that um necessarily, but yeah, that is that is very

1418
01:18:01,479 --> 01:18:04,840
Speaker 1: typical of this type of literature, so again because it

1419
01:18:05,000 --> 01:18:08,479
Speaker 1: is written mostly for other anti sid anarchists, but like, yeah,

1420
01:18:08,520 --> 01:18:12,040
Speaker 1: it's not like pro genocide. It's saying genocide will happen.

1421
01:18:12,280 --> 01:18:14,720
Speaker 1: So the way to make less of it is to

1422
01:18:15,320 --> 01:18:19,840
Speaker 1: actually kind of slowly start kind of help helping the

1423
01:18:19,880 --> 01:18:23,639
Speaker 1: crumbles along essentially and while still you know, making people's

1424
01:18:23,680 --> 01:18:26,160
Speaker 1: lives better in your immediate community, like with that, with

1425
01:18:26,240 --> 01:18:29,160
Speaker 1: that very local focus. So again not not saying I

1426
01:18:29,240 --> 01:18:32,000
Speaker 1: necessarily agree with that, but that's the that's the type

1427
01:18:32,040 --> 01:18:37,080
Speaker 1: of thought it's engaging with. I mean, I think that's

1428
01:18:37,320 --> 01:18:40,560
Speaker 1: true of some of it. But there is definitely a

1429
01:18:40,640 --> 01:18:44,360
Speaker 1: lot of like panic about there's going to be nine

1430
01:18:44,400 --> 01:18:49,880
Speaker 1: billion people and like population growth of all the over

1431
01:18:49,920 --> 01:18:52,000
Speaker 1: population stuff is a little iffy. You know, there is

1432
01:18:52,160 --> 01:18:54,640
Speaker 1: a there's a discussion to have on caring capacity, but

1433
01:18:54,760 --> 01:18:56,760
Speaker 1: we are not there yet. We right now we way

1434
01:18:56,840 --> 01:19:00,400
Speaker 1: overproduced for them for the amount of people we have. Yeah,

1435
01:19:00,840 --> 01:19:05,400
Speaker 1: that and that, I don't know. That also frustrated me immensely.

1436
01:19:07,240 --> 01:19:09,639
Speaker 1: They're like, yeah, we we have consider they're talking about

1437
01:19:09,640 --> 01:19:12,080
Speaker 1: carring capacity, right, and they're like, oh, we already can't

1438
01:19:12,240 --> 01:19:14,080
Speaker 1: we have a billion people going hungry And it's like, yeah,

1439
01:19:14,080 --> 01:19:16,080
Speaker 1: but that's not about the carrying capacity. That's just that's

1440
01:19:16,400 --> 01:19:20,920
Speaker 1: that's which was literally that and that idea gained more

1441
01:19:20,960 --> 01:19:24,080
Speaker 1: prevalence after Dessert was written. We kind of more understood,

1442
01:19:24,479 --> 01:19:27,640
Speaker 1: like like culturally that it is a distribution issue, not

1443
01:19:27,760 --> 01:19:30,679
Speaker 1: necessarily a production issue. Now we do overproduce, right because

1444
01:19:30,720 --> 01:19:32,960
Speaker 1: and the amount of production we have contributes this tough

1445
01:19:33,000 --> 01:19:34,960
Speaker 1: like climate change, and that is bad. So we should

1446
01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:37,439
Speaker 1: tone down production, but we should make the ways that

1447
01:19:37,520 --> 01:19:40,920
Speaker 1: it's more sustainable and ecological. Um, yeah, that I think

1448
01:19:40,960 --> 01:19:43,679
Speaker 1: that does point towards the data nature of the text.

1449
01:19:44,560 --> 01:19:47,400
Speaker 1: I think Also my my last like thing with it

1450
01:19:47,560 --> 01:19:52,760
Speaker 1: is I think I think it could have benefited a

1451
01:19:52,880 --> 01:19:56,720
Speaker 1: lot from like in an indigenous stewardship perspective, because the

1452
01:19:56,760 --> 01:19:59,040
Speaker 1: way it thinks about it's particularly the way things but

1453
01:19:59,160 --> 01:20:05,439
Speaker 1: wildness versus observation is just very messy. And yeah, if

1454
01:20:05,560 --> 01:20:09,000
Speaker 1: it falls, it falls. It does a better job of

1455
01:20:09,080 --> 01:20:12,599
Speaker 1: it than some other antis of things that I've seen,

1456
01:20:12,760 --> 01:20:16,000
Speaker 1: but it definitely falls into the like trap of like

1457
01:20:16,760 --> 01:20:19,439
Speaker 1: here is the wild and then any attempt to manage

1458
01:20:19,479 --> 01:20:23,479
Speaker 1: it is uh, you know, is is civilization and you

1459
01:20:23,560 --> 01:20:25,280
Speaker 1: need to go back to the wild, and it's like, well,

1460
01:20:25,640 --> 01:20:31,559
Speaker 1: this is already stewarded and managed. That is the one. Yeah.

1461
01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:34,720
Speaker 1: It does fall on that slope of like nature being

1462
01:20:34,880 --> 01:20:38,519
Speaker 1: another that is sacred, which isn't necessarily a great idea

1463
01:20:38,640 --> 01:20:41,000
Speaker 1: nor is it really true. Yeah, this is very two,

1464
01:20:42,520 --> 01:20:45,960
Speaker 1: very two ten. Yeah. Right, So I think the the

1465
01:20:46,160 --> 01:20:50,360
Speaker 1: book is critical concitation and that sort of binary, and

1466
01:20:50,400 --> 01:20:56,320
Speaker 1: I agree that indigenous stewardship perspective was sorely needed. But

1467
01:20:56,360 --> 01:20:59,040
Speaker 1: at the same time, I do think that the way

1468
01:20:59,120 --> 01:21:04,720
Speaker 1: that the book criticizes UM or rather just points out UM,

1469
01:21:05,200 --> 01:21:08,920
Speaker 1: the su conservation may have been and may still be

1470
01:21:09,560 --> 01:21:12,439
Speaker 1: new for some people. You know, the idea that these

1471
01:21:12,520 --> 01:21:19,479
Speaker 1: sorts of government conservation projects which sort of preside over

1472
01:21:19,560 --> 01:21:23,040
Speaker 1: this sort of static vision of nature and ecology and

1473
01:21:23,160 --> 01:21:28,479
Speaker 1: stuff that is supposedly threatened by humanity. UM. I think

1474
01:21:28,600 --> 01:21:33,240
Speaker 1: criticizing that approach to nature it's good. I mean the

1475
01:21:33,360 --> 01:21:36,799
Speaker 1: sort of romanticization of the wild that is very typical

1476
01:21:36,920 --> 01:21:42,720
Speaker 1: of anti sive text and thought. UM is verty much

1477
01:21:42,760 --> 01:21:49,360
Speaker 1: anti sive. But I do believe that people should look

1478
01:21:50,640 --> 01:21:57,120
Speaker 1: ah or should rather resist these sorts of conservation impulse

1479
01:21:58,479 --> 01:22:01,840
Speaker 1: as I was rereading it a couple of weeks ago.

1480
01:22:02,880 --> 01:22:05,320
Speaker 1: I wanted to know, UM, what you guys thought of

1481
01:22:07,000 --> 01:22:09,759
Speaker 1: the section of the book that speaks of the different

1482
01:22:11,080 --> 01:22:14,639
Speaker 1: modern different, the the idea of fourth and fifth generation

1483
01:22:14,720 --> 01:22:21,400
Speaker 1: war Oh boy, that's a UM. I feel that that

1484
01:22:21,560 --> 01:22:28,240
Speaker 1: has been UM sort of a contributional approach to analyzing conflict.

1485
01:22:28,400 --> 01:22:31,800
Speaker 1: So I figured out, as you have been in you know,

1486
01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:35,080
Speaker 1: actual war zoons robot, that you might have a thing

1487
01:22:35,280 --> 01:22:39,599
Speaker 1: to see. UM. I mean, it's the kind of thing

1488
01:22:39,640 --> 01:22:43,960
Speaker 1: that we should probably cover in in detail on because

1489
01:22:44,000 --> 01:22:46,680
Speaker 1: this is a lot of like William Lynde stuff. I

1490
01:22:46,720 --> 01:22:48,160
Speaker 1: think he's the guy who came up with the idea

1491
01:22:48,200 --> 01:22:51,000
Speaker 1: of like fourth generation war less at least, and it's UM,

1492
01:22:51,680 --> 01:22:55,080
Speaker 1: it's basically the idea. It's the idea that warfare UM

1493
01:22:55,400 --> 01:22:58,000
Speaker 1: today is conducted through a lot of stuff that's not

1494
01:22:58,200 --> 01:23:02,960
Speaker 1: conventional weaponry, right, so stuff like UM like like like

1495
01:23:03,400 --> 01:23:07,880
Speaker 1: putting bought networks together to like push social division, you

1496
01:23:07,960 --> 01:23:11,519
Speaker 1: know through um social media, UM or carrying out cyber

1497
01:23:11,560 --> 01:23:15,880
Speaker 1: attacks on infrastructure, disinformation UM, all of that kind of stuff,

1498
01:23:16,400 --> 01:23:18,960
Speaker 1: which is I think accurate. I've been reporting on what

1499
01:23:19,080 --> 01:23:25,960
Speaker 1: you could call fifth generation warfare since some UM. I

1500
01:23:26,040 --> 01:23:29,920
Speaker 1: think it's I think to the extent that it's relevant here.

1501
01:23:30,120 --> 01:23:32,320
Speaker 1: I think one thing that people in the left need

1502
01:23:32,360 --> 01:23:36,280
Speaker 1: to acknowledge is that they have UM been blindsided by

1503
01:23:36,360 --> 01:23:41,280
Speaker 1: the effectiveness that the far right has adapted to UM

1504
01:23:41,680 --> 01:23:44,920
Speaker 1: the key components of this kind of warfare. And I

1505
01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:48,840
Speaker 1: think nothing is more key than social engineering and disinformation UM.

1506
01:23:49,040 --> 01:23:52,280
Speaker 1: And they've been much more successful at it over the

1507
01:23:52,400 --> 01:23:56,120
Speaker 1: last release ince twos in fifteen in particular, UM, than

1508
01:23:56,200 --> 01:23:59,800
Speaker 1: the left has by basically everywhere, every single and by

1509
01:24:00,000 --> 01:24:02,760
Speaker 1: I think, every single measure of of success. And I

1510
01:24:03,160 --> 01:24:05,680
Speaker 1: think this is something we should save in depth for

1511
01:24:06,160 --> 01:24:10,960
Speaker 1: another day UM. But I think that it is worth

1512
01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:14,439
Speaker 1: acknowledging that this is And I also think that and

1513
01:24:14,560 --> 01:24:17,000
Speaker 1: this is again part of a bigger conversation we talked

1514
01:24:17,000 --> 01:24:19,000
Speaker 1: about the concept of like culture jamming, when we talked

1515
01:24:19,000 --> 01:24:21,680
Speaker 1: about like operation mind fuck you know, which is Discordian

1516
01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:24,880
Speaker 1: idea UM, all of which you can see is kind

1517
01:24:24,960 --> 01:24:28,759
Speaker 1: of pre predecessors to the concepts of fifth generation warfare.

1518
01:24:29,040 --> 01:24:31,080
Speaker 1: I think there's a strong argument to be made that

1519
01:24:31,200 --> 01:24:34,640
Speaker 1: those efforts by leftists in the eighties and nineties in

1520
01:24:34,760 --> 01:24:39,400
Speaker 1: particular actually contributed to the substantial right wing victories that

1521
01:24:39,479 --> 01:24:42,560
Speaker 1: we're seeing right now in this space. UM, and I

1522
01:24:42,880 --> 01:24:45,360
Speaker 1: think maybe it's I think there's a number of reasons

1523
01:24:45,600 --> 01:24:48,639
Speaker 1: for that, um, including some to some extent, the idea

1524
01:24:48,680 --> 01:24:51,240
Speaker 1: of arrogance that um that what that we were just

1525
01:24:51,360 --> 01:24:53,360
Speaker 1: too smart, that they were never going to figure out

1526
01:24:53,439 --> 01:24:55,519
Speaker 1: how to utilize the same means we had or to

1527
01:24:55,840 --> 01:24:58,960
Speaker 1: kind of judo like take the momentum for that and

1528
01:24:59,080 --> 01:25:01,880
Speaker 1: spin it around on us. But they were and they did,

1529
01:25:02,160 --> 01:25:05,280
Speaker 1: and yeah, that'll that'll lead into another episode. We'll have

1530
01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:08,040
Speaker 1: to talk about this in more detail. That's something like

1531
01:25:08,120 --> 01:25:10,560
Speaker 1: Grant Morrison actually talks a lot about in regards to

1532
01:25:10,640 --> 01:25:14,439
Speaker 1: discordionism and this type of how how you know, he

1533
01:25:14,720 --> 01:25:17,439
Speaker 1: used to work for a company called Disinformation back when

1534
01:25:17,479 --> 01:25:21,760
Speaker 1: Disinformation was yeah, and now it's like one of the

1535
01:25:21,840 --> 01:25:25,280
Speaker 1: leading castes of mass death in the world, right, so

1536
01:25:25,720 --> 01:25:27,960
Speaker 1: he That is something that Morrison talks about a lot

1537
01:25:28,000 --> 01:25:31,000
Speaker 1: in terms of how they did have that arrogance and

1538
01:25:31,080 --> 01:25:33,519
Speaker 1: now the same forces that they used in hopes of

1539
01:25:33,600 --> 01:25:36,360
Speaker 1: making the world better and now being used to regress

1540
01:25:36,479 --> 01:25:40,519
Speaker 1: the world and make it worse. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I

1541
01:25:40,600 --> 01:25:43,200
Speaker 1: had a big copy of Disinformation on my coffee table

1542
01:25:43,240 --> 01:25:49,160
Speaker 1: when I was nineteen. I just ordered, Oh good, there's

1543
01:25:49,200 --> 01:25:55,479
Speaker 1: some fun essays in their Garrett. Um, all right, that'll probably,

1544
01:25:55,920 --> 01:25:57,200
Speaker 1: I mean, did you have more to say on that?

1545
01:25:57,479 --> 01:26:00,200
Speaker 1: And yeah, I just wanted to see that, you know,

1546
01:26:00,360 --> 01:26:05,320
Speaker 1: regardless of the uncertain future, um, regardless of your stance

1547
01:26:05,439 --> 01:26:10,840
Speaker 1: on get Its message, however flawed. UM here now, as

1548
01:26:11,320 --> 01:26:16,960
Speaker 1: the minor goods in Alice Suxley's Island so often repeat, um,

1549
01:26:17,800 --> 01:26:20,240
Speaker 1: we can and should pay attention to what we can

1550
01:26:20,320 --> 01:26:23,599
Speaker 1: do to support ourselves for whatever outcome you go through,

1551
01:26:24,479 --> 01:26:28,479
Speaker 1: you know, projects within the spaces we inhabit. I believe

1552
01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:31,320
Speaker 1: that anarchism could be the seed of the new will.

1553
01:26:31,640 --> 01:26:34,519
Speaker 1: I do believe that we have an impact, a huge

1554
01:26:34,520 --> 01:26:39,439
Speaker 1: impact on society and on politics, and I believe there

1555
01:26:39,479 --> 01:26:46,400
Speaker 1: are still many possibilities for liberty still. Yeah, I I

1556
01:26:46,760 --> 01:26:50,320
Speaker 1: do as well. I think that acknowledging you know, failures

1557
01:26:50,479 --> 01:26:54,240
Speaker 1: both of of of you know, ideas and of methods

1558
01:26:54,360 --> 01:26:58,320
Speaker 1: doesn't mean giving up hope or or ignoring the successes

1559
01:26:58,479 --> 01:27:03,679
Speaker 1: of those same things which which we're are also present. Um. Yeah,

1560
01:27:03,960 --> 01:27:09,760
Speaker 1: so I don't know, stay optimistic. Read something uh doesn't

1561
01:27:09,800 --> 01:27:11,599
Speaker 1: have to beat but just go go read a thing

1562
01:27:12,000 --> 01:27:15,439
Speaker 1: read Yeah, back of your shampoo, B but especially if

1563
01:27:15,439 --> 01:27:18,599
Speaker 1: it's Dr Brauner's a lot of good stuff in there. UM.

1564
01:27:19,479 --> 01:27:21,880
Speaker 1: All right, that's gonna do it for us this week

1565
01:27:24,360 --> 01:27:40,240
Speaker 1: today at least welcome to It could happen here the

1566
01:27:40,320 --> 01:27:44,000
Speaker 1: podcast we already recorded and I messed up, um or

1567
01:27:44,160 --> 01:27:46,200
Speaker 1: something happened with the zoom and we lost the audio.

1568
01:27:46,240 --> 01:27:49,240
Speaker 1: So now we're recording it again as is, as is

1569
01:27:49,360 --> 01:27:53,240
Speaker 1: the cycle of life. UM. Thankfully I can. I'm now

1570
01:27:53,320 --> 01:27:55,920
Speaker 1: on my tenth shot of espresso of the day and

1571
01:27:56,040 --> 01:27:58,479
Speaker 1: it is eight pm, so I'm I'm ready. I'm I'm

1572
01:27:58,560 --> 01:28:01,519
Speaker 1: ready this time to a We're gonna be doing another

1573
01:28:01,640 --> 01:28:06,960
Speaker 1: one of our chronicles into open source and ocean style

1574
01:28:07,080 --> 01:28:10,160
Speaker 1: research or open source verification and this kind of side

1575
01:28:10,680 --> 01:28:12,840
Speaker 1: of of generally you know, this is kind of a

1576
01:28:12,880 --> 01:28:16,200
Speaker 1: field of like anti fascist research, UM and journalism. So

1577
01:28:16,880 --> 01:28:20,560
Speaker 1: we're looking at one of these case studies. UM. But

1578
01:28:20,720 --> 01:28:25,920
Speaker 1: today I have someone with me, Alistair from Opossum Press

1579
01:28:26,600 --> 01:28:30,200
Speaker 1: is here to talk about sent and UH and this

1580
01:28:30,280 --> 01:28:34,760
Speaker 1: type of research. Hello, Hey, thank you for being with

1581
01:28:34,920 --> 01:28:38,320
Speaker 1: me again on this on this call, on this very

1582
01:28:38,760 --> 01:28:44,519
Speaker 1: Deshavo experience for us. UM. I would actually first like

1583
01:28:44,680 --> 01:28:49,280
Speaker 1: to talk about how Opossum Press got started as like

1584
01:28:49,360 --> 01:28:52,400
Speaker 1: a collective of of people dedicated towards this goal of,

1585
01:28:52,479 --> 01:28:58,360
Speaker 1: you know, surveying the fascist creep. Um. I had an

1586
01:28:58,479 --> 01:29:03,360
Speaker 1: interest in and journalism. I have no experience in it,

1587
01:29:03,640 --> 01:29:06,559
Speaker 1: but I have other friends that are into writing and stuff,

1588
01:29:06,600 --> 01:29:10,400
Speaker 1: and I just kind of reached out to friends like, Hey,

1589
01:29:10,439 --> 01:29:14,479
Speaker 1: would anybody be interested in doing this? And um, there

1590
01:29:14,520 --> 01:29:17,400
Speaker 1: are several friends that were like, hell, yeah, let's do this.

1591
01:29:17,760 --> 01:29:20,960
Speaker 1: And that's pretty much it. After we got it all formed. Um,

1592
01:29:22,000 --> 01:29:27,439
Speaker 1: we set up some open source intel like workshops and

1593
01:29:27,680 --> 01:29:30,640
Speaker 1: we've about every other week we get together for two

1594
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:34,439
Speaker 1: or three hours and learned stuff that sounds that sounds

1595
01:29:34,479 --> 01:29:37,720
Speaker 1: lovely actually, Um, most of my stuff is usually done

1596
01:29:37,720 --> 01:29:41,400
Speaker 1: alone in my computer dark when I'm on my again

1597
01:29:41,479 --> 01:29:43,720
Speaker 1: tenth cup of coffee of the day. Do we go

1598
01:29:43,840 --> 01:29:45,200
Speaker 1: s into a group of people like that sounds like

1599
01:29:45,240 --> 01:29:47,479
Speaker 1: it could be actually kind of fun, So yeah, we're

1600
01:29:47,479 --> 01:29:51,080
Speaker 1: gonna In our last episode, we talked about how I

1601
01:29:51,600 --> 01:29:54,160
Speaker 1: tracked down and found out who written house was the

1602
01:29:54,280 --> 01:29:59,759
Speaker 1: night of of that happening in Kenosha Um and today

1603
01:30:00,040 --> 01:30:03,479
Speaker 1: and me talking about someone related to January six, um,

1604
01:30:03,720 --> 01:30:08,519
Speaker 1: the infamous zip tie guy as he became known for

1605
01:30:08,680 --> 01:30:11,640
Speaker 1: like two days on the internet before he got his

1606
01:30:11,720 --> 01:30:14,720
Speaker 1: actual day. UM. First, I I guess I probably I

1607
01:30:14,800 --> 01:30:17,400
Speaker 1: probably in case you haven't listened to the previous episode

1608
01:30:17,520 --> 01:30:19,759
Speaker 1: I did on Written House, so probably kind of explain

1609
01:30:19,840 --> 01:30:23,000
Speaker 1: what open source stuff is and what like Osan is

1610
01:30:23,040 --> 01:30:27,160
Speaker 1: and verification. So it's about trying to track down information

1611
01:30:27,360 --> 01:30:31,639
Speaker 1: using open sources UM on the Internet. So in terms

1612
01:30:31,680 --> 01:30:34,479
Speaker 1: of like nothing is it's it's all. It's it's it's

1613
01:30:34,520 --> 01:30:37,280
Speaker 1: it's it's already sitting there. Nothing requires like special access,

1614
01:30:37,400 --> 01:30:42,200
Speaker 1: nothing requires you know, you're to hack into anyone system. UM,

1615
01:30:42,800 --> 01:30:45,519
Speaker 1: it's it's stuff is just the stuff that's already sitting there.

1616
01:30:45,560 --> 01:30:49,080
Speaker 1: The data, whether that be you know, geographical data, personal data,

1617
01:30:49,240 --> 01:30:52,960
Speaker 1: data from social media accounts, data from every time you've

1618
01:30:53,120 --> 01:30:55,479
Speaker 1: entered your email into a random website that you maybe

1619
01:30:55,520 --> 01:30:57,439
Speaker 1: didn't know quite what's going on, but you did it.

1620
01:30:58,040 --> 01:31:00,519
Speaker 1: Something that's that gets stored somewhere as day to and

1621
01:31:00,960 --> 01:31:03,240
Speaker 1: someone can probably find it. UM. So it's all this

1622
01:31:03,280 --> 01:31:06,000
Speaker 1: stuff about you on the Internet that is all open

1623
01:31:06,080 --> 01:31:10,400
Speaker 1: if you do the digging. UM. Often cases this results

1624
01:31:10,439 --> 01:31:13,080
Speaker 1: in going through social media profiles. UM. That is a

1625
01:31:13,920 --> 01:31:16,960
Speaker 1: good portion of Osan's work is learning how to use

1626
01:31:17,040 --> 01:31:19,680
Speaker 1: Google really well and how to how to how to

1627
01:31:19,760 --> 01:31:23,719
Speaker 1: go through social media. Um, start using like Google search operators,

1628
01:31:23,760 --> 01:31:27,439
Speaker 1: start using social media tools that help you sort through information.

1629
01:31:27,479 --> 01:31:29,680
Speaker 1: Because the information is there, you just have to learn

1630
01:31:29,680 --> 01:31:31,240
Speaker 1: how to sort through it, right, because there's just so

1631
01:31:31,400 --> 01:31:34,280
Speaker 1: much of it. Um. So that's kind of the just

1632
01:31:34,439 --> 01:31:36,120
Speaker 1: to what open source stuff is. You mean, eventually you

1633
01:31:36,120 --> 01:31:38,240
Speaker 1: can get into the stuff like using like Python, using

1634
01:31:38,280 --> 01:31:41,120
Speaker 1: code and scrapers like all that stuff is there too,

1635
01:31:41,240 --> 01:31:42,920
Speaker 1: but for our purposes, we're gonna stick to the more

1636
01:31:42,960 --> 01:31:46,280
Speaker 1: simplistic stuff because this is an audio format and I'm

1637
01:31:46,439 --> 01:31:52,519
Speaker 1: I'm not going to start explaining Python code on a podcast. Um.

1638
01:31:53,040 --> 01:31:57,280
Speaker 1: So let's let's let's turn back the clocks a year. Um,

1639
01:31:57,760 --> 01:32:00,160
Speaker 1: a little over a year, and it's a genu where

1640
01:32:00,200 --> 01:32:03,080
Speaker 1: he six what's kind of you or your collective's reaction

1641
01:32:03,240 --> 01:32:05,640
Speaker 1: just to kind of watching things unfold? You know, Like

1642
01:32:05,960 --> 01:32:08,479
Speaker 1: as a researcher, every every time I look at these

1643
01:32:08,520 --> 01:32:10,840
Speaker 1: types of you know, protests, you know, whether they be

1644
01:32:10,920 --> 01:32:13,000
Speaker 1: big or small, always part of my brains like trying

1645
01:32:13,040 --> 01:32:15,559
Speaker 1: to make connections and do stuff right. So as January

1646
01:32:15,600 --> 01:32:18,559
Speaker 1: six is unfolding, what's what's kind of going through everyone

1647
01:32:18,600 --> 01:32:21,680
Speaker 1: at a post and press his head. The first thing

1648
01:32:21,800 --> 01:32:25,000
Speaker 1: that seemed to be collective in everybody's mind was, oh

1649
01:32:25,120 --> 01:32:28,920
Speaker 1: my god, none of these people are wearing face masks. Yeah.

1650
01:32:30,439 --> 01:32:33,080
Speaker 1: Like the immediate thing is this is probably going to

1651
01:32:33,160 --> 01:32:36,600
Speaker 1: be really easy for a lot of people. There's nobody.

1652
01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:39,639
Speaker 1: Nobody is in any type of like block or trying

1653
01:32:39,680 --> 01:32:42,360
Speaker 1: to hide their identity in at all, something you see

1654
01:32:42,560 --> 01:32:45,080
Speaker 1: the European fascists actually doing more often. There was a

1655
01:32:45,560 --> 01:32:47,559
Speaker 1: think of a video from Germany of a whole bunch

1656
01:32:47,600 --> 01:32:49,639
Speaker 1: of far right dudees just to ian black block because

1657
01:32:49,680 --> 01:32:53,519
Speaker 1: black blocks a tactic. Um. So yeah, but in the

1658
01:32:53,640 --> 01:32:57,519
Speaker 1: States they're specifically January six, it was Yeah, no one

1659
01:32:57,640 --> 01:33:00,400
Speaker 1: was really worried about keeping their identity secret. They really

1660
01:33:00,439 --> 01:33:03,840
Speaker 1: did not think what they were doing was wrong. I

1661
01:33:03,920 --> 01:33:07,200
Speaker 1: think the other thing we were a lot of us

1662
01:33:07,280 --> 01:33:13,000
Speaker 1: were really angry. Um, just like we had been like

1663
01:33:13,240 --> 01:33:16,400
Speaker 1: yelling that this was gonna happen, screaming it out, like

1664
01:33:16,560 --> 01:33:19,720
Speaker 1: trying to get people to pay attention, and we got

1665
01:33:19,840 --> 01:33:22,800
Speaker 1: blown off so much. I remember, just like a few

1666
01:33:22,920 --> 01:33:26,000
Speaker 1: days before, I got in an argument with a Facebook

1667
01:33:26,080 --> 01:33:28,840
Speaker 1: friend and like people need to be paying attention, like

1668
01:33:29,000 --> 01:33:32,040
Speaker 1: they're planning something. They're like, oh, it's fine, it's fine,

1669
01:33:32,720 --> 01:33:34,880
Speaker 1: and then you know, just a few days later, I'm like,

1670
01:33:34,920 --> 01:33:37,840
Speaker 1: oh is it fine? Like that is kind of always

1671
01:33:37,880 --> 01:33:40,519
Speaker 1: the curse of surveilling all of these things, whether they

1672
01:33:40,600 --> 01:33:43,920
Speaker 1: be like a specific event or some movement in general. Right,

1673
01:33:44,000 --> 01:33:46,320
Speaker 1: people who are really into q and on before the

1674
01:33:46,439 --> 01:33:48,960
Speaker 1: Libs knew what Qumanan was and we're warning about it

1675
01:33:49,040 --> 01:33:54,880
Speaker 1: for years before you know it resulted in people dying. Um, Right,

1676
01:33:54,960 --> 01:33:56,920
Speaker 1: That's that's kind of always the curse of these things.

1677
01:33:57,560 --> 01:33:59,640
Speaker 1: So it's it's you get you get the mix of

1678
01:33:59,720 --> 01:34:03,280
Speaker 1: the shock and horror of the thing finally happening in

1679
01:34:03,360 --> 01:34:06,599
Speaker 1: a weird relief. It's it's it's it's it's a very

1680
01:34:06,640 --> 01:34:10,200
Speaker 1: bizarre feeling to watch these things unfold because you're like, oh,

1681
01:34:10,320 --> 01:34:14,439
Speaker 1: I'm vindicated, but it sucks that I'm vindicated. Right. I remember,

1682
01:34:14,560 --> 01:34:18,640
Speaker 1: like the December watching all these groups, like I was

1683
01:34:18,800 --> 01:34:22,599
Speaker 1: just it was just filled with dread. Um, I knew

1684
01:34:22,760 --> 01:34:25,679
Speaker 1: something was gonna happen. I didn't know what was gonna happen,

1685
01:34:26,160 --> 01:34:28,760
Speaker 1: and it was just so much anxiety. And then like

1686
01:34:29,320 --> 01:34:32,120
Speaker 1: it's funny, January six after it happened, like it all

1687
01:34:32,160 --> 01:34:34,080
Speaker 1: went away. I was able to get a decent night

1688
01:34:34,200 --> 01:34:38,719
Speaker 1: sleep just because there was I didn't have that build

1689
01:34:38,800 --> 01:34:41,600
Speaker 1: up of suspense of what what is it gonna be,

1690
01:34:41,840 --> 01:34:43,960
Speaker 1: what's it gonna look like? How bad is it going

1691
01:34:44,040 --> 01:34:49,400
Speaker 1: to be? Kind of had that release. Yeah, Unfortunately they

1692
01:34:49,479 --> 01:34:52,240
Speaker 1: were all like amateur, didn't know what they were doing,

1693
01:34:52,320 --> 01:34:56,160
Speaker 1: and it wasn't as bad as it could have been. Yeah. Well,

1694
01:34:56,439 --> 01:34:58,880
Speaker 1: I think as for the open source stuff, I'm gonna

1695
01:34:58,920 --> 01:35:01,840
Speaker 1: kind of walk us through chronologically and of in terms

1696
01:35:01,920 --> 01:35:06,960
Speaker 1: of the journey of zip Tie Guy because I was

1697
01:35:07,040 --> 01:35:09,920
Speaker 1: doing like archiving on January six, but zip Ti Guy

1698
01:35:10,040 --> 01:35:13,280
Speaker 1: was really the only dude I was interested in identifying.

1699
01:35:13,439 --> 01:35:15,479
Speaker 1: There was there was a lot of other people doing

1700
01:35:15,560 --> 01:35:20,120
Speaker 1: really great identification work. I was also generous. Six I

1701
01:35:20,160 --> 01:35:23,320
Speaker 1: was going through all the social media history of Ashley Babbitt,

1702
01:35:23,800 --> 01:35:27,479
Speaker 1: archiving all of her Twitter and Facebook like years of stuff.

1703
01:35:27,880 --> 01:35:30,880
Speaker 1: I was to chronicle how she went from like an

1704
01:35:30,920 --> 01:35:33,640
Speaker 1: Obama voter to a Q and on from proponent. So

1705
01:35:33,920 --> 01:35:35,439
Speaker 1: that was what I was doing, and I was writing

1706
01:35:35,439 --> 01:35:38,400
Speaker 1: an article with Belling Cat about that um. But the

1707
01:35:38,479 --> 01:35:40,720
Speaker 1: only only other guy I wanted to identify was zip

1708
01:35:40,800 --> 01:35:43,240
Speaker 1: tie Guy because he was really interesting. He was one

1709
01:35:43,280 --> 01:35:46,280
Speaker 1: of the few guys that was masked up. Um he

1710
01:35:46,439 --> 01:35:48,240
Speaker 1: had what he had visible weapons on him. He was

1711
01:35:48,240 --> 01:35:51,280
Speaker 1: obviously carrying zip ties. You know. It gives you images

1712
01:35:51,360 --> 01:35:54,080
Speaker 1: of like, oh yeah, it's like they're planning to capture

1713
01:35:54,120 --> 01:35:56,479
Speaker 1: and execute people. That was like the general kind of

1714
01:35:56,680 --> 01:36:00,479
Speaker 1: vibe um of that. So he is the only person

1715
01:36:00,560 --> 01:36:02,800
Speaker 1: I was actually put work into identifying, and I put

1716
01:36:02,840 --> 01:36:05,240
Speaker 1: a decent amount of work in Now I I failed

1717
01:36:05,479 --> 01:36:07,840
Speaker 1: where other people succeeded, and we can talk about like

1718
01:36:07,960 --> 01:36:12,000
Speaker 1: why in a sec But for like a day at least,

1719
01:36:12,120 --> 01:36:14,840
Speaker 1: all we had to go on was the picture of

1720
01:36:15,160 --> 01:36:19,200
Speaker 1: the guy holding the zip ties in a mask. Um.

1721
01:36:20,080 --> 01:36:22,080
Speaker 1: There's a few other pictures of him around from that day,

1722
01:36:22,080 --> 01:36:26,000
Speaker 1: but it's mostly mostly one picture and the biggest clue

1723
01:36:26,080 --> 01:36:29,360
Speaker 1: that we had to start with, Um, what what what what?

1724
01:36:29,520 --> 01:36:31,280
Speaker 1: Why don't you explain what the what the first clue

1725
01:36:31,400 --> 01:36:33,680
Speaker 1: is and how that may be piqued your interest. He

1726
01:36:33,800 --> 01:36:37,479
Speaker 1: had two patches on his vest, and one of them

1727
01:36:37,720 --> 01:36:40,080
Speaker 1: was a thin blue line patch, but it was in

1728
01:36:40,160 --> 01:36:46,000
Speaker 1: this uh shape of the state of Tennessee. So so yeah,

1729
01:36:46,080 --> 01:36:50,080
Speaker 1: in terms of having a decent lead, that is like okay,

1730
01:36:50,200 --> 01:36:52,400
Speaker 1: well that that narrows it down to one of fifties

1731
01:36:52,400 --> 01:36:56,240
Speaker 1: states probably right, Yeah, I should say I'm from Knoxville,

1732
01:36:56,439 --> 01:36:59,599
Speaker 1: so like it be in Tennessee that I picked up

1733
01:36:59,600 --> 01:37:01,960
Speaker 1: on that because that's my state. Yeah, that it becomes

1734
01:37:02,000 --> 01:37:04,320
Speaker 1: a local problem. I And as someone in Oregon, I

1735
01:37:04,439 --> 01:37:08,639
Speaker 1: definitely understand that feeling of of yeah, when fascism becomes

1736
01:37:08,680 --> 01:37:13,479
Speaker 1: a local problem of Yeah. So that definitely piqued your

1737
01:37:13,560 --> 01:37:16,120
Speaker 1: interests specifically, but then it also gives a really good

1738
01:37:16,200 --> 01:37:19,960
Speaker 1: lead for like where to look because osar, he's not

1739
01:37:20,160 --> 01:37:23,439
Speaker 1: trying to do a meta thing by tricking us into

1740
01:37:23,520 --> 01:37:26,680
Speaker 1: giving us a false lead. Generally people don't do that

1741
01:37:26,800 --> 01:37:30,200
Speaker 1: as often in real life as they do in television. Um,

1742
01:37:31,320 --> 01:37:33,240
Speaker 1: but there's still has plenty of other ways to detect.

1743
01:37:33,280 --> 01:37:36,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I I love I love detecting, and there's

1744
01:37:36,120 --> 01:37:39,120
Speaker 1: there's enough, there's enough stuff to do otherwise that making

1745
01:37:39,120 --> 01:37:42,760
Speaker 1: it needlessly complicated as honestly, I'm fine with it not

1746
01:37:42,880 --> 01:37:47,880
Speaker 1: being that. Um So, yeah, we had we had that

1747
01:37:48,080 --> 01:37:52,960
Speaker 1: to go off initially, so starting looking for like far

1748
01:37:53,120 --> 01:37:55,720
Speaker 1: right activity in Tennessee. Now, I was an outsider, so

1749
01:37:55,760 --> 01:37:57,200
Speaker 1: I didn't really know where to start in terms of

1750
01:37:57,800 --> 01:38:01,519
Speaker 1: specific rallies. But I know you uh at what point

1751
01:38:01,600 --> 01:38:03,799
Speaker 1: did you start looking trying to like go through pictures

1752
01:38:03,800 --> 01:38:07,040
Speaker 1: of specific rallies to try to like match clothing or stuff.

1753
01:38:07,760 --> 01:38:09,960
Speaker 1: I think it was probably it may have been that

1754
01:38:10,200 --> 01:38:13,200
Speaker 1: day or the day after when I started going through

1755
01:38:13,520 --> 01:38:18,679
Speaker 1: the notebooks that I had, like names of just people

1756
01:38:18,760 --> 01:38:23,639
Speaker 1: we suspected may become problems, um, and I started looking

1757
01:38:23,680 --> 01:38:28,879
Speaker 1: at their profiles again and you know, didn't find anything.

1758
01:38:29,479 --> 01:38:32,080
Speaker 1: And in our research that we had already done, we

1759
01:38:32,200 --> 01:38:35,640
Speaker 1: didn't see anything on Yeah, I mean that was kind

1760
01:38:35,640 --> 01:38:37,120
Speaker 1: of the case for me as well. With just the

1761
01:38:37,160 --> 01:38:40,320
Speaker 1: picture of the zip tie a guy with the patch,

1762
01:38:40,439 --> 01:38:42,280
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's a lead, but there wasn't tons

1763
01:38:42,360 --> 01:38:47,160
Speaker 1: to go on. But thankfully, thankfully are are good friends.

1764
01:38:47,200 --> 01:38:51,320
Speaker 1: At January six, we're giving us more clues as because,

1765
01:38:52,040 --> 01:38:55,120
Speaker 1: as the Simpsons meme goes, videotaping this crime scene was

1766
01:38:55,160 --> 01:38:59,480
Speaker 1: the best idea you ever had. Um. So, like January

1767
01:38:59,640 --> 01:39:03,160
Speaker 1: I think seventh, there was a live stream video that

1768
01:39:03,280 --> 01:39:06,400
Speaker 1: was kind of circulating through like anti fascist group chats um.

1769
01:39:06,560 --> 01:39:08,479
Speaker 1: It was. It was posted like publicly to get everyone's

1770
01:39:08,479 --> 01:39:11,240
Speaker 1: attention on it on January eight, um, but for like

1771
01:39:11,280 --> 01:39:13,360
Speaker 1: a day it was kind of passing through back channels

1772
01:39:13,880 --> 01:39:17,000
Speaker 1: and throughout in this live stream, which is Yeah, there

1773
01:39:17,120 --> 01:39:19,840
Speaker 1: was so many people were live streaming that night, and

1774
01:39:20,000 --> 01:39:22,400
Speaker 1: it is a kind of surreal thing to watch of them.

1775
01:39:23,320 --> 01:39:25,640
Speaker 1: This this this live stream in particular, it is zip

1776
01:39:25,720 --> 01:39:28,280
Speaker 1: Ti guy if you was friends, um, I think his

1777
01:39:28,439 --> 01:39:30,439
Speaker 1: mom and a few and just running the people from

1778
01:39:30,479 --> 01:39:33,960
Speaker 1: January six all hanging out at a hotel room afterwards,

1779
01:39:34,120 --> 01:39:36,080
Speaker 1: like it's it is. It is the night of the sixth,

1780
01:39:36,400 --> 01:39:40,639
Speaker 1: and they're all just hanging out again totally like no masks,

1781
01:39:40,680 --> 01:39:43,360
Speaker 1: they're they're they're in a hotel lobby, no masks, um,

1782
01:39:43,680 --> 01:39:45,559
Speaker 1: and they're just like hanging out on chilling, like sitting

1783
01:39:45,600 --> 01:39:47,360
Speaker 1: on the couch and chatting for like half an hour.

1784
01:39:47,840 --> 01:39:50,280
Speaker 1: It's one of the weirdest videos to watch. All all

1785
01:39:50,320 --> 01:39:52,519
Speaker 1: of the live streams from that night are so surreal

1786
01:39:53,080 --> 01:39:56,160
Speaker 1: because it is like this transitionary period of like after

1787
01:39:56,240 --> 01:39:59,600
Speaker 1: the capital attack, but before every before like people like

1788
01:39:59,680 --> 01:40:01,800
Speaker 1: gown out on them, so they don't really know how

1789
01:40:01,880 --> 01:40:03,880
Speaker 1: to behave They still think what they did was kind

1790
01:40:03,880 --> 01:40:06,000
Speaker 1: of fine, even though at this point I think like

1791
01:40:06,040 --> 01:40:08,920
Speaker 1: four or five people are dead, um, but it's so

1792
01:40:09,120 --> 01:40:11,719
Speaker 1: weird just watch them just interact like such normal people

1793
01:40:11,880 --> 01:40:14,680
Speaker 1: in this moment like after they did this thing, then

1794
01:40:14,720 --> 01:40:17,280
Speaker 1: they go in this hotel room and they're acting completely normal.

1795
01:40:17,400 --> 01:40:20,120
Speaker 1: So it's it's just a weird video in general. But

1796
01:40:20,920 --> 01:40:23,599
Speaker 1: what it does have is someone in the same outfit

1797
01:40:23,680 --> 01:40:26,719
Speaker 1: as Zip Tie guy with no mask on. You actually

1798
01:40:26,760 --> 01:40:30,280
Speaker 1: actually can see his full face. Ye. Getting to see

1799
01:40:30,320 --> 01:40:34,840
Speaker 1: his full face was a big, big, big help because

1800
01:40:35,120 --> 01:40:37,559
Speaker 1: we everyone, everyone was looking for pictures of this guy

1801
01:40:37,640 --> 01:40:40,200
Speaker 1: without his mask all like for the entirety of the day.

1802
01:40:40,439 --> 01:40:42,920
Speaker 1: So now having a whole video where we're gonna see

1803
01:40:42,960 --> 01:40:45,600
Speaker 1: like all of the angles of him was great. It

1804
01:40:45,760 --> 01:40:48,599
Speaker 1: was perfect. The best the best thing that was really

1805
01:40:48,640 --> 01:40:51,360
Speaker 1: the beauty of of all of of all of all

1806
01:40:51,400 --> 01:40:54,240
Speaker 1: the January six documentation is how many people were live

1807
01:40:54,320 --> 01:40:57,439
Speaker 1: streaming themselves doing crimes and their friends. Um it did.

1808
01:40:57,600 --> 01:41:00,760
Speaker 1: It did make the archiving and uh well the archiving part.

1809
01:41:00,920 --> 01:41:04,000
Speaker 1: Archiving is always painful and tedious, but it made the

1810
01:41:04,000 --> 01:41:06,519
Speaker 1: actual research afterwards a lot easier because there was so

1811
01:41:06,600 --> 01:41:09,599
Speaker 1: much the documentation of it. So, yeah, we we got

1812
01:41:09,640 --> 01:41:12,240
Speaker 1: we got this video. I'm gonna explain how I kind

1813
01:41:12,280 --> 01:41:15,959
Speaker 1: of took this video and failed to reach the conclusion,

1814
01:41:16,040 --> 01:41:18,920
Speaker 1: and then we can talk about how you succeeded. But first,

1815
01:41:19,479 --> 01:41:22,599
Speaker 1: but first we're gonna hear some ads from our lovely

1816
01:41:23,000 --> 01:41:27,120
Speaker 1: products and services. Robert was here for our previous recording

1817
01:41:27,600 --> 01:41:30,680
Speaker 1: uh that we tried to end I failed, and he

1818
01:41:30,840 --> 01:41:33,519
Speaker 1: made some very good jokes uh and very good segways

1819
01:41:33,600 --> 01:41:37,479
Speaker 1: about how all of our sponsors support insurrection, just like

1820
01:41:37,600 --> 01:41:40,000
Speaker 1: January six, And if I tried to repeat the jokes,

1821
01:41:40,040 --> 01:41:41,920
Speaker 1: it will be stupid. So I'm just gonna I'm just

1822
01:41:41,960 --> 01:41:43,960
Speaker 1: gonna give you the sense there was a joke, and

1823
01:41:44,000 --> 01:41:48,000
Speaker 1: now you're gonna be left with that dissatisfaction. So bye, goodbye.

1824
01:41:48,200 --> 01:41:52,040
Speaker 1: Here's some ads. Okay, we're back, and I'm going to

1825
01:41:52,120 --> 01:41:54,920
Speaker 1: give an extremely brief rundown on how I failed to do.

1826
01:41:55,360 --> 01:41:57,920
Speaker 1: Uh well, I didn't fail to do research. I did research.

1827
01:41:57,920 --> 01:42:00,920
Speaker 1: I just didn't reach a proper conclusion. And I knew that.

1828
01:42:01,120 --> 01:42:04,240
Speaker 1: So the the the other the other thing about Zip

1829
01:42:04,320 --> 01:42:07,560
Speaker 1: tie Guy, he had he had the patch of like

1830
01:42:07,640 --> 01:42:10,880
Speaker 1: the sim blue line in Tennessee, and then it's then

1831
01:42:11,000 --> 01:42:14,840
Speaker 1: I soon after got the video of his face and

1832
01:42:15,080 --> 01:42:17,960
Speaker 1: uh interacting with people. And the the other thing is

1833
01:42:18,000 --> 01:42:21,120
Speaker 1: I think, um we the hat he was wearing in

1834
01:42:21,200 --> 01:42:24,759
Speaker 1: the Zip tie Guy photo was I think was tracked

1835
01:42:24,840 --> 01:42:29,679
Speaker 1: back to be um our favorite coffee company, Black Rifle

1836
01:42:29,720 --> 01:42:32,360
Speaker 1: Coffy Merchandise. It was it was like, what was what

1837
01:42:32,520 --> 01:42:36,400
Speaker 1: was one of the hats they sell? So me, being clever,

1838
01:42:36,520 --> 01:42:39,000
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, here's this Black Raper Coffee hat. This

1839
01:42:39,120 --> 01:42:42,320
Speaker 1: patch in Tennessee. I know Black Ripe Coffee is based

1840
01:42:42,360 --> 01:42:45,120
Speaker 1: out of Tennessee. I'm gonna go look through everyone who

1841
01:42:45,160 --> 01:42:47,000
Speaker 1: works for Black Raffle Coffee, which I mean isn't a

1842
01:42:47,080 --> 01:42:50,640
Speaker 1: bad instinct as an outsider, but it did not. It

1843
01:42:50,680 --> 01:42:53,040
Speaker 1: did not succeed. But the funny thing is is that

1844
01:42:53,680 --> 01:42:56,479
Speaker 1: while looking through all the employees at Black Apple Coffee,

1845
01:42:56,720 --> 01:42:58,960
Speaker 1: all of them do look identical to Zip Tie guy.

1846
01:42:59,200 --> 01:43:03,679
Speaker 1: They all same characteristics, They all look exactly the same

1847
01:43:03,800 --> 01:43:06,920
Speaker 1: on their their beards, their nose, their forehead, their hair,

1848
01:43:07,280 --> 01:43:09,600
Speaker 1: all of them identical, every single one of them, to

1849
01:43:09,640 --> 01:43:11,479
Speaker 1: the point where the only way I could tell that

1850
01:43:11,600 --> 01:43:13,439
Speaker 1: it wasn't a SIPTI guy was being like, Okay, no,

1851
01:43:13,880 --> 01:43:16,879
Speaker 1: he has a mole here, he has like a birthmark

1852
01:43:16,960 --> 01:43:19,479
Speaker 1: here this way, his like his eyes are his eye

1853
01:43:19,520 --> 01:43:21,519
Speaker 1: wrinkles are different. So it's like it's going down to

1854
01:43:21,600 --> 01:43:25,160
Speaker 1: the very like fine tuned facial features. Because all of

1855
01:43:25,240 --> 01:43:29,360
Speaker 1: their face shapes are like identical. I think there's a

1856
01:43:29,439 --> 01:43:31,479
Speaker 1: point that I had the same instinct. I think I

1857
01:43:32,080 --> 01:43:35,160
Speaker 1: know there's a point that I went through, um the

1858
01:43:35,240 --> 01:43:39,680
Speaker 1: black Coffee Rifle, all of their people look. Um. I

1859
01:43:39,760 --> 01:43:43,120
Speaker 1: don't know if it was for Eric Wentel or if

1860
01:43:43,200 --> 01:43:49,240
Speaker 1: it was like maybe around the Rittenhouse stuff. I don't know. Uh. Yeah,

1861
01:43:49,400 --> 01:43:51,639
Speaker 1: So that that's that's what I spent my time doing,

1862
01:43:51,880 --> 01:43:57,400
Speaker 1: is going through everybody who works there of Uh. But

1863
01:43:57,680 --> 01:43:59,280
Speaker 1: but by the time I kind of gave up on

1864
01:43:59,400 --> 01:44:04,240
Speaker 1: that of the identity was already discovered, um and posted

1865
01:44:04,479 --> 01:44:08,360
Speaker 1: by your team at a possum press. So how how

1866
01:44:08,439 --> 01:44:11,880
Speaker 1: did you get from you know, this zip Tygi picture

1867
01:44:12,240 --> 01:44:16,000
Speaker 1: than the light the archived livestream video of him without

1868
01:44:16,000 --> 01:44:18,559
Speaker 1: without a mask, to to the point where you could say, hey,

1869
01:44:19,000 --> 01:44:22,439
Speaker 1: this is his name. But well, I was I wasn't

1870
01:44:22,479 --> 01:44:26,800
Speaker 1: even really in contact with Like we as a group

1871
01:44:26,960 --> 01:44:30,280
Speaker 1: weren't messaging each other trying to figure this out together,

1872
01:44:30,840 --> 01:44:33,280
Speaker 1: but we were, like it turns out a few of

1873
01:44:33,400 --> 01:44:38,280
Speaker 1: us were working separately. So while I'm going through social media, um,

1874
01:44:38,400 --> 01:44:42,560
Speaker 1: a friend in Nashville was um going through pictures of

1875
01:44:42,640 --> 01:44:47,200
Speaker 1: the protests from there over the summer and they ended

1876
01:44:47,280 --> 01:44:50,560
Speaker 1: up finding about five different pictures, I think, and we

1877
01:44:50,720 --> 01:44:53,799
Speaker 1: knew we knew most of the people in the pictures

1878
01:44:53,880 --> 01:44:55,639
Speaker 1: that are maybe like one or two that we did

1879
01:44:55,720 --> 01:44:59,360
Speaker 1: not know, And one was always Eric Munchell and he's

1880
01:44:59,400 --> 01:45:03,760
Speaker 1: wearing the exact same gear he wore January six. Um,

1881
01:45:04,160 --> 01:45:07,000
Speaker 1: I say, Eric Munchell, we didn't know his name yet then,

1882
01:45:07,800 --> 01:45:11,880
Speaker 1: so um. From there, we kind of we went ahead

1883
01:45:11,920 --> 01:45:15,200
Speaker 1: and posted what we had to Twitter, and then we

1884
01:45:15,280 --> 01:45:17,920
Speaker 1: went back to the social media and I started looking

1885
01:45:18,040 --> 01:45:23,120
Speaker 1: through the profiles that were the people we knew, and

1886
01:45:23,320 --> 01:45:28,040
Speaker 1: sure enough, one of them, Kurt Dennis, had a live

1887
01:45:28,120 --> 01:45:32,880
Speaker 1: stream that was telling the story, um, the same story

1888
01:45:32,960 --> 01:45:35,880
Speaker 1: that Eric Mutchell told him, that thirty minute video, and

1889
01:45:37,680 --> 01:45:40,840
Speaker 1: he actually while telling it, he's like, yeah, my buddy Eric.

1890
01:45:42,200 --> 01:45:46,439
Speaker 1: So at that point we go to his friends list

1891
01:45:46,560 --> 01:45:49,400
Speaker 1: and sure enough, he only has one Eric there and

1892
01:45:49,600 --> 01:45:52,599
Speaker 1: it's Eric Munchell. And there we go to that page

1893
01:45:52,680 --> 01:45:54,799
Speaker 1: and find some of the same gear in the background

1894
01:45:54,840 --> 01:45:57,760
Speaker 1: of the pictures that he has publicly posted. Yeah, he

1895
01:45:57,880 --> 01:45:59,519
Speaker 1: like puts the pictures of him and his gear with

1896
01:45:59,600 --> 01:46:02,320
Speaker 1: like ums and yeah, you can you can track all

1897
01:46:02,360 --> 01:46:05,439
Speaker 1: of this like facial like like like like birthmarks and stuff.

1898
01:46:05,439 --> 01:46:08,800
Speaker 1: They're all the same. So, yeah, you and that that's you. Uh,

1899
01:46:09,400 --> 01:46:14,679
Speaker 1: you definitely got him of Yeah, their own mistakes. Yeah,

1900
01:46:14,720 --> 01:46:17,559
Speaker 1: that's that's my favorite part. Like they they gave us

1901
01:46:18,160 --> 01:46:21,720
Speaker 1: his identity. They often, if not handing themselves to you

1902
01:46:21,800 --> 01:46:24,880
Speaker 1: on a silver pilladder, they at least have a platter um.

1903
01:46:25,280 --> 01:46:27,639
Speaker 1: They they often there's often enough bread, right. The reason

1904
01:46:27,680 --> 01:46:29,599
Speaker 1: why these things are solved because there are enough bread

1905
01:46:29,640 --> 01:46:32,160
Speaker 1: comes to follow and often they kind of leave pretty

1906
01:46:32,240 --> 01:46:36,000
Speaker 1: big chunks of bread. Um. Just the fact that again

1907
01:46:36,320 --> 01:46:39,240
Speaker 1: added to the surreal aspect of that whole live stream video,

1908
01:46:40,080 --> 01:46:42,639
Speaker 1: the fact that he's like you matched it by telling

1909
01:46:42,720 --> 01:46:45,360
Speaker 1: the same You can hear them someone tell the same story.

1910
01:46:45,400 --> 01:46:49,600
Speaker 1: It's just such a weird, surreal thing. Yeah. So I

1911
01:46:49,680 --> 01:46:52,160
Speaker 1: think in terms of like oas and stuff, what this

1912
01:46:52,760 --> 01:46:57,439
Speaker 1: case study in particular really highlights is the importance of

1913
01:46:58,360 --> 01:47:01,000
Speaker 1: archival stuff, right, some why you were able to solve

1914
01:47:01,080 --> 01:47:03,479
Speaker 1: this and not me because I wasn't. I mean, I

1915
01:47:04,000 --> 01:47:07,599
Speaker 1: I did my own archival thing for archiving, like the video.

1916
01:47:08,160 --> 01:47:11,719
Speaker 1: But the way that you were able to really crack

1917
01:47:11,800 --> 01:47:14,400
Speaker 1: this open and everyone else who worked on it is

1918
01:47:14,479 --> 01:47:18,559
Speaker 1: because you had like those lists of connections of people

1919
01:47:18,600 --> 01:47:21,800
Speaker 1: who are already kind of active in this like al

1920
01:47:21,960 --> 01:47:24,600
Speaker 1: right far right scene within your local community. Like you

1921
01:47:24,680 --> 01:47:28,479
Speaker 1: already had documentation of the major players who they interact with,

1922
01:47:28,680 --> 01:47:30,720
Speaker 1: right you. You already had pictures of this guy in

1923
01:47:30,880 --> 01:47:34,800
Speaker 1: gear with other known people. So the fact that there

1924
01:47:34,880 --> 01:47:39,160
Speaker 1: was already previously work archived really made the success of

1925
01:47:39,280 --> 01:47:44,639
Speaker 1: this so much more possible. That's what they but People's

1926
01:47:44,680 --> 01:47:47,479
Speaker 1: Plaza and Nashville during their protests, they were really big

1927
01:47:47,560 --> 01:47:51,600
Speaker 1: on documenting. Um they documented everything with the police and

1928
01:47:52,160 --> 01:47:56,240
Speaker 1: um any counter protesters they would. They had professional photographers

1929
01:47:56,320 --> 01:48:00,519
Speaker 1: out there making sure we had good, clear quality pictures

1930
01:48:00,800 --> 01:48:04,600
Speaker 1: of like everybody on the other side as well, and

1931
01:48:04,680 --> 01:48:09,400
Speaker 1: that definitely helped us a lot. Yeah, because especially before

1932
01:48:09,479 --> 01:48:14,200
Speaker 1: January six, they there was they did a decent job

1933
01:48:14,360 --> 01:48:18,439
Speaker 1: of archiving themselves, well not not archiving, but like filming

1934
01:48:18,479 --> 01:48:21,719
Speaker 1: themselves and documenting themselves. And then you know, it takes

1935
01:48:22,040 --> 01:48:24,920
Speaker 1: takes other research to then archive that. So not only

1936
01:48:25,040 --> 01:48:28,160
Speaker 1: is important just to like look at the research and

1937
01:48:28,360 --> 01:48:30,560
Speaker 1: look at like the documentation of the that people do

1938
01:48:30,640 --> 01:48:32,519
Speaker 1: of themselves, but then make sure that you have a

1939
01:48:32,600 --> 01:48:36,360
Speaker 1: source for that that's not their own uploading of it. Right. So,

1940
01:48:36,560 --> 01:48:39,360
Speaker 1: like a great example is like all of the live

1941
01:48:39,400 --> 01:48:41,320
Speaker 1: streams from January six, including like this one from the

1942
01:48:41,400 --> 01:48:43,920
Speaker 1: hotel room. Pretty soon it was deleted by the person

1943
01:48:43,960 --> 01:48:46,479
Speaker 1: who posted it because they realized, oh maybe I shouldn't

1944
01:48:46,520 --> 01:48:49,880
Speaker 1: have this living record of my crimes. Um. But at

1945
01:48:49,960 --> 01:48:52,439
Speaker 1: that point people already saved the video. They they already

1946
01:48:52,600 --> 01:48:55,360
Speaker 1: like I already ran it through a video of saving

1947
01:48:55,439 --> 01:48:59,519
Speaker 1: program that I had. UM. So it's it's important not

1948
01:48:59,600 --> 01:49:04,439
Speaker 1: only to again archiving having having having previous documentation of

1949
01:49:04,560 --> 01:49:07,360
Speaker 1: people and known players, but then as new information is

1950
01:49:07,400 --> 01:49:09,680
Speaker 1: coming out, make sure you make separate copies of that

1951
01:49:09,880 --> 01:49:12,479
Speaker 1: for your own sake so that you actually have it,

1952
01:49:12,600 --> 01:49:15,000
Speaker 1: and then you're not gonna be stuck looking for something

1953
01:49:15,040 --> 01:49:17,800
Speaker 1: that's gone. Right. The worst case scenarios to like you

1954
01:49:18,000 --> 01:49:20,519
Speaker 1: know that there was an important thing, but you just

1955
01:49:20,600 --> 01:49:22,439
Speaker 1: don't have access to it anymore. It's like you you

1956
01:49:22,720 --> 01:49:25,400
Speaker 1: remember seeing it, you didn't save it, and now it's gone.

1957
01:49:25,680 --> 01:49:27,680
Speaker 1: That's a horrible feeling to do when you're trying to

1958
01:49:27,720 --> 01:49:31,000
Speaker 1: get this kind of research done. UM. And like it happens,

1959
01:49:31,080 --> 01:49:33,560
Speaker 1: we all, we all make mistakes like this. UM, I

1960
01:49:33,680 --> 01:49:36,720
Speaker 1: definitely have it happened to me actually this week. Yeah,

1961
01:49:36,800 --> 01:49:39,000
Speaker 1: it happens all the time, and it happens to be.

1962
01:49:39,080 --> 01:49:40,760
Speaker 1: It happens to be all the time. I'll look at

1963
01:49:40,800 --> 01:49:42,640
Speaker 1: something and be like, I should probably save this. I

1964
01:49:42,720 --> 01:49:45,400
Speaker 1: get distracted or I just don't want to because archiving

1965
01:49:45,520 --> 01:49:48,320
Speaker 1: is boring and tedious, and then I check again, that's gone.

1966
01:49:48,320 --> 01:49:52,280
Speaker 1: I'm like, well that's should I should have archived it. Yeah.

1967
01:49:53,160 --> 01:49:55,799
Speaker 1: So on. On top of all of the archiving stuff,

1968
01:49:55,840 --> 01:49:58,920
Speaker 1: which in general, anti fascist research is really that's the

1969
01:49:58,960 --> 01:50:03,360
Speaker 1: thing that really excels even like um above above journalism

1970
01:50:03,520 --> 01:50:07,080
Speaker 1: is like, you know, getting like traditional journalism is like

1971
01:50:07,320 --> 01:50:11,120
Speaker 1: getting a good documentation of like key fascist players in

1972
01:50:11,200 --> 01:50:13,840
Speaker 1: your area, key people who are kind of pushing far

1973
01:50:13,920 --> 01:50:16,280
Speaker 1: right stuff and far right violence. Actually getting like a

1974
01:50:16,479 --> 01:50:19,240
Speaker 1: good a good, a good idea of who they are

1975
01:50:19,880 --> 01:50:23,080
Speaker 1: and having that knowledge always handy. Um is something that

1976
01:50:23,439 --> 01:50:26,200
Speaker 1: this type of research is is really that that is

1977
01:50:26,240 --> 01:50:28,680
Speaker 1: really what it excels at, or like what what the

1978
01:50:28,880 --> 01:50:31,000
Speaker 1: what those researchers excel at. This is the thing that

1979
01:50:31,120 --> 01:50:33,240
Speaker 1: they do very well. I think a lot of us

1980
01:50:33,360 --> 01:50:37,160
Speaker 1: probably started doing it just out of curiosity, looking into people,

1981
01:50:37,479 --> 01:50:42,120
Speaker 1: and that's that issaraily how I started, Like I've been

1982
01:50:42,240 --> 01:50:45,360
Speaker 1: doing it long before. I just didn't know That's what

1983
01:50:45,479 --> 01:50:48,400
Speaker 1: it was called because like I'd see somebody make a

1984
01:50:49,280 --> 01:50:52,320
Speaker 1: messed up common online, I'm like, who is this person?

1985
01:50:52,479 --> 01:50:54,320
Speaker 1: And then you know, trying to find as much as

1986
01:50:54,360 --> 01:50:58,400
Speaker 1: I can about them? Yeah, that's that is certainly how

1987
01:50:58,400 --> 01:51:00,680
Speaker 1: I got started with this type of thing, because it

1988
01:51:01,160 --> 01:51:03,679
Speaker 1: can it can be fun to look for bad people.

1989
01:51:03,880 --> 01:51:06,880
Speaker 1: It is, it is. It is kind of pleasurable, UM

1990
01:51:08,120 --> 01:51:12,120
Speaker 1: and one of one of the again another big contributing factor.

1991
01:51:12,200 --> 01:51:14,360
Speaker 1: And how you got zip tie guy? How how I

1992
01:51:14,439 --> 01:51:16,880
Speaker 1: got written? How how a lot of this stuff works?

1993
01:51:17,400 --> 01:51:20,519
Speaker 1: Um is uh the beauty of Facebook as a research

1994
01:51:20,600 --> 01:51:25,120
Speaker 1: tool because often in order in order in order to

1995
01:51:25,200 --> 01:51:27,679
Speaker 1: do the archiving, you need to have stuff to archive,

1996
01:51:28,040 --> 01:51:30,000
Speaker 1: and a lot of the stuff that gets posted from

1997
01:51:30,080 --> 01:51:33,840
Speaker 1: these things by the people doing them UM is done

1998
01:51:33,840 --> 01:51:36,280
Speaker 1: on Facebook, or at least it used to write the

1999
01:51:36,320 --> 01:51:40,040
Speaker 1: past five years, really, Facebook has been the main main

2000
01:51:40,280 --> 01:51:43,479
Speaker 1: source of this UM. Now it's maybe now people are

2001
01:51:43,520 --> 01:51:46,000
Speaker 1: kind of getting wise and maybe some stuff is moving

2002
01:51:46,040 --> 01:51:48,320
Speaker 1: to telegram. Facebook is becoming a little little bit less

2003
01:51:48,600 --> 01:51:50,760
Speaker 1: important of a platform for this type of research. And

2004
01:51:50,840 --> 01:51:53,360
Speaker 1: I know Facebook has changed the way that they um

2005
01:51:53,560 --> 01:51:55,840
Speaker 1: that you can use their service, So it does make

2006
01:51:55,920 --> 01:51:58,479
Speaker 1: research kind of harder in some ways, but but even

2007
01:51:58,560 --> 01:52:00,880
Speaker 1: still it is it is one of the better tools

2008
01:52:01,040 --> 01:52:04,040
Speaker 1: to um to dig into certain types of people because

2009
01:52:04,040 --> 01:52:06,040
Speaker 1: there is certain types of people who are going to

2010
01:52:06,120 --> 01:52:11,160
Speaker 1: be more likely to use Facebook. Um and Yeah, in

2011
01:52:11,320 --> 01:52:16,120
Speaker 1: terms of how getting Facebook was the method, it's not

2012
01:52:16,280 --> 01:52:18,599
Speaker 1: where the place where you're able to make the link

2013
01:52:18,680 --> 01:52:22,439
Speaker 1: between the fascists. You already knew and and eric um

2014
01:52:22,760 --> 01:52:25,880
Speaker 1: because of because you are you already you you already

2015
01:52:25,960 --> 01:52:28,200
Speaker 1: knew who the players were, and the Facebook had the

2016
01:52:28,400 --> 01:52:32,559
Speaker 1: visualized network to actually make those connections. So Facebook itself

2017
01:52:32,640 --> 01:52:35,320
Speaker 1: and social media in general is really is really useful.

2018
01:52:35,400 --> 01:52:37,680
Speaker 1: And the in terms of how this operate is like

2019
01:52:37,720 --> 01:52:41,440
Speaker 1: going through friends lists is really easy, um, but oftentimes

2020
01:52:41,880 --> 01:52:43,960
Speaker 1: a lot of people will not maybe have those public

2021
01:52:44,560 --> 01:52:47,320
Speaker 1: um and what wich. Then this again, it's not a

2022
01:52:47,439 --> 01:52:49,960
Speaker 1: dead road. You can still look through likes, you can

2023
01:52:49,960 --> 01:52:52,960
Speaker 1: still look through shares, you can still look through like,

2024
01:52:53,160 --> 01:52:56,639
Speaker 1: um if you like people are tagged in photos. Um

2025
01:52:57,360 --> 01:52:59,560
Speaker 1: it really it really is a is a great is

2026
01:52:59,600 --> 01:53:03,519
Speaker 1: a great system that is good at making you not

2027
01:53:03,720 --> 01:53:06,200
Speaker 1: have privacy. That is the thing. It really it really

2028
01:53:06,280 --> 01:53:11,160
Speaker 1: excels it. Yeah, and even even if people don't have

2029
01:53:11,720 --> 01:53:16,080
Speaker 1: like an active social media presence per se UM, it

2030
01:53:16,320 --> 01:53:19,640
Speaker 1: can still be really useful in getting specific names of

2031
01:53:19,760 --> 01:53:23,479
Speaker 1: people or or just make or just having a connection

2032
01:53:23,600 --> 01:53:27,040
Speaker 1: be known like this. This was mostly how I was

2033
01:53:27,120 --> 01:53:30,679
Speaker 1: able to identify the all the anonymous UM riot cops

2034
01:53:30,720 --> 01:53:34,080
Speaker 1: in when when the Portland Police Bureau took took away

2035
01:53:34,120 --> 01:53:38,280
Speaker 1: their badge numbers and names. UM is that I could

2036
01:53:38,320 --> 01:53:39,960
Speaker 1: get like a list of cops and we could start

2037
01:53:40,040 --> 01:53:42,560
Speaker 1: figuring out like, okay, this is probably this is this

2038
01:53:42,720 --> 01:53:46,040
Speaker 1: is this is pre cops previously on the right team, right,

2039
01:53:46,280 --> 01:53:49,280
Speaker 1: you can start doing facial matching UM. And then if

2040
01:53:49,280 --> 01:53:51,200
Speaker 1: I want to learn out, if if I want to

2041
01:53:51,400 --> 01:53:53,559
Speaker 1: if I want to learn more information about like their

2042
01:53:53,600 --> 01:53:56,679
Speaker 1: first name, and more information about them in general, even

2043
01:53:56,720 --> 01:54:00,320
Speaker 1: if they don't have a social media profile, often their

2044
01:54:00,400 --> 01:54:04,280
Speaker 1: wife might or their mom might. You know, there's a UM.

2045
01:54:05,000 --> 01:54:08,200
Speaker 1: And in terms of fun sentences to say, really learning

2046
01:54:08,240 --> 01:54:10,920
Speaker 1: how to exploit people's family as a weakness is is

2047
01:54:11,200 --> 01:54:16,240
Speaker 1: wonderful UM for this type of stalking stalking violent bad people. UM.

2048
01:54:17,160 --> 01:54:19,640
Speaker 1: Because yeah, because a lot of a lot of a

2049
01:54:19,640 --> 01:54:21,200
Speaker 1: lot of the riot cops were smart enough to not

2050
01:54:21,720 --> 01:54:24,080
Speaker 1: to at least to either not have their presence at

2051
01:54:24,080 --> 01:54:26,800
Speaker 1: all on the internet, um or to have it very

2052
01:54:26,880 --> 01:54:28,479
Speaker 1: locked down in terms of, you know, no one can

2053
01:54:28,520 --> 01:54:30,160
Speaker 1: see their posts, no one can see their friends, no

2054
01:54:30,200 --> 01:54:33,560
Speaker 1: one can see anything. But still their wife will occasionally

2055
01:54:33,600 --> 01:54:36,880
Speaker 1: tag them in photos or uh maybe not even photos

2056
01:54:36,920 --> 01:54:38,800
Speaker 1: of them, but like they'll they'll just take them in

2057
01:54:38,840 --> 01:54:41,120
Speaker 1: a photo of like their kid or something. And then

2058
01:54:41,200 --> 01:54:43,000
Speaker 1: this just creates more ways to make connections so that

2059
01:54:43,120 --> 01:54:46,240
Speaker 1: you can, you know, learn more about these specific people. Um,

2060
01:54:46,840 --> 01:54:51,000
Speaker 1: because sometimes that's fun and interesting. Yeah, I've noticed some

2061
01:54:51,120 --> 01:54:54,680
Speaker 1: people with socks that I've found their identity. It's by

2062
01:54:55,680 --> 01:54:58,920
Speaker 1: going through the likes and seeing, um, you know, the

2063
01:54:59,040 --> 01:55:01,440
Speaker 1: same woman. It is always the first to put a

2064
01:55:01,520 --> 01:55:04,960
Speaker 1: heart react there, and you can go to their pages.

2065
01:55:05,200 --> 01:55:07,440
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's a little if you get through their pictures

2066
01:55:07,960 --> 01:55:10,680
Speaker 1: and you see a picture of the guy there with

2067
01:55:10,960 --> 01:55:14,440
Speaker 1: they'll have like somebody in the comments, oh Mark looks

2068
01:55:14,600 --> 01:55:19,000
Speaker 1: really good. There something you know, naming the husband, and

2069
01:55:19,080 --> 01:55:20,760
Speaker 1: from there you can get the last thing. You know,

2070
01:55:21,040 --> 01:55:24,000
Speaker 1: you've know the wife's last name, you have a good

2071
01:55:24,120 --> 01:55:28,480
Speaker 1: chance of that being their last name. Yeah. Yeah, So

2072
01:55:29,080 --> 01:55:34,120
Speaker 1: family families really is really great for finding people because

2073
01:55:34,120 --> 01:55:36,440
Speaker 1: because like all of the other recent research is is

2074
01:55:36,520 --> 01:55:39,000
Speaker 1: learning how to make these open source connections, right, A

2075
01:55:39,080 --> 01:55:42,320
Speaker 1: lot a lot of it is connections and networking, and

2076
01:55:42,560 --> 01:55:47,960
Speaker 1: people usually always have an innate connection and networking and

2077
01:55:48,040 --> 01:55:50,600
Speaker 1: that that that is their family. UM. And often this

2078
01:55:50,760 --> 01:55:53,160
Speaker 1: like extends out in terms of you know, political organizing,

2079
01:55:53,200 --> 01:55:55,840
Speaker 1: whether you're part of you know, militias or just kind

2080
01:55:55,840 --> 01:55:59,360
Speaker 1: of smaller groups. Yeah, that is another network. UM. Friends

2081
01:55:59,520 --> 01:56:01,880
Speaker 1: is another at work. But you know, for people who

2082
01:56:01,920 --> 01:56:04,880
Speaker 1: are kind of are are more locked down, it is

2083
01:56:04,920 --> 01:56:07,360
Speaker 1: possible to find the information about people, um, you know,

2084
01:56:08,520 --> 01:56:10,000
Speaker 1: especially if if they had, like if they have like

2085
01:56:10,080 --> 01:56:12,360
Speaker 1: a not very common last name, you know, that can

2086
01:56:12,440 --> 01:56:15,080
Speaker 1: make finding information about them much easier if you're using

2087
01:56:15,120 --> 01:56:17,440
Speaker 1: tools like Facebook. Um. And then it's you know, just

2088
01:56:17,520 --> 01:56:19,240
Speaker 1: a matter of doing all the other you know, open

2089
01:56:19,280 --> 01:56:22,240
Speaker 1: source research of you know, comparing clothing, um, you know,

2090
01:56:22,320 --> 01:56:24,440
Speaker 1: and comparing to what other kind of information you already

2091
01:56:24,480 --> 01:56:28,640
Speaker 1: know about the person, email addresses, phone numbers if you can,

2092
01:56:28,680 --> 01:56:31,080
Speaker 1: you know, get that, get that kind of stuff as well.

2093
01:56:31,680 --> 01:56:33,160
Speaker 1: But I think that's all he had on zip tie

2094
01:56:33,200 --> 01:56:37,160
Speaker 1: guy out mostly m Yeah, he was a really easy one.

2095
01:56:37,240 --> 01:56:40,400
Speaker 1: There's not a whole lot to really dive into their Yeah,

2096
01:56:40,480 --> 01:56:45,800
Speaker 1: no for for someone for someone who was one of

2097
01:56:45,880 --> 01:56:49,560
Speaker 1: the few people masked up wasn't was not was not

2098
01:56:49,720 --> 01:56:54,160
Speaker 1: that hard to find. I mean, yeah, of course, the

2099
01:56:54,240 --> 01:56:56,280
Speaker 1: fact that he was found by local people in his

2100
01:56:56,440 --> 01:57:00,000
Speaker 1: area not surprising. Um that's another thing I did. Fashion

2101
01:57:00,080 --> 01:57:02,520
Speaker 1: research is really good at, is that type of local research,

2102
01:57:03,040 --> 01:57:05,120
Speaker 1: because you know, they they have they have all those

2103
01:57:05,160 --> 01:57:09,440
Speaker 1: local connections, they have those local um documentation of like

2104
01:57:09,600 --> 01:57:12,480
Speaker 1: a political events that have happened in their area. So

2105
01:57:13,120 --> 01:57:15,880
Speaker 1: again it's the the importance of of having stuff archives

2106
01:57:15,880 --> 01:57:18,760
Speaker 1: and having stuff like sorted and having stuff organized well

2107
01:57:18,800 --> 01:57:21,520
Speaker 1: so you can access your archive of information is really important.

2108
01:57:21,720 --> 01:57:24,280
Speaker 1: It's it's it sucks that it's it's the part of

2109
01:57:24,360 --> 01:57:29,600
Speaker 1: OS and I hate the most. Everyone. Everyone hates. Everyone hates.

2110
01:57:29,640 --> 01:57:32,160
Speaker 1: I'm I'm sure there's some sick of out there who

2111
01:57:32,240 --> 01:57:35,640
Speaker 1: likes it, but everyone else, everyone else hates all of

2112
01:57:35,720 --> 01:57:39,360
Speaker 1: the We hate all this organizing and sorting. And I

2113
01:57:39,520 --> 01:57:43,200
Speaker 1: find archiving to be tedious. Archiving videos, live streams, it's tedious,

2114
01:57:43,240 --> 01:57:48,640
Speaker 1: it's difficult. Um, it's done, it's time consuming, it's repetitive,

2115
01:57:48,800 --> 01:57:51,880
Speaker 1: it's not generally not a good time, but it is

2116
01:57:52,280 --> 01:57:55,480
Speaker 1: so useful and in the long run of trying to

2117
01:57:55,680 --> 01:57:58,400
Speaker 1: get these like a list of of like established players

2118
01:57:58,440 --> 01:58:01,160
Speaker 1: in your area. This is how you start seeing patterns, right.

2119
01:58:02,120 --> 01:58:04,160
Speaker 1: You need to have this information already laid out so

2120
01:58:04,280 --> 01:58:07,120
Speaker 1: you can actually watch the patterns unfold. Otherwise it's just

2121
01:58:07,160 --> 01:58:09,800
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of chaotic information that means nothing. So

2122
01:58:11,040 --> 01:58:13,200
Speaker 1: it's it's super important, as as much of a bummer

2123
01:58:13,280 --> 01:58:19,040
Speaker 1: as it may be. Yeah, let's see, UM, is there

2124
01:58:19,040 --> 01:58:20,880
Speaker 1: anything you've been working on since then that you like

2125
01:58:20,960 --> 01:58:23,120
Speaker 1: that you would like to talk about, or any upcoming

2126
01:58:23,360 --> 01:58:28,480
Speaker 1: research projects? Right now, I'm really focused on our local

2127
01:58:28,880 --> 01:58:33,360
Speaker 1: UM school board and you know, like many towns across

2128
01:58:33,440 --> 01:58:36,800
Speaker 1: the country, we have fascists trying to take it over

2129
01:58:37,080 --> 01:58:40,760
Speaker 1: and going to the meetings, and so I've been watching

2130
01:58:41,160 --> 01:58:44,920
Speaker 1: that group very closely for the last several months, since

2131
01:58:45,240 --> 01:58:50,480
Speaker 1: probably about October. Our school year, we started out without

2132
01:58:50,520 --> 01:58:57,080
Speaker 1: a mask mandate UM and a couple of parrots UM

2133
01:58:57,840 --> 01:59:03,520
Speaker 1: who's children like they're there, I mean a compromise like

2134
01:59:03,640 --> 01:59:07,120
Speaker 1: their their kids need the everybody else to wear a mask.

2135
01:59:07,200 --> 01:59:10,920
Speaker 1: So their parents sued the school board and our governor

2136
01:59:11,240 --> 01:59:15,320
Speaker 1: UM to have a mass band aid and the judge

2137
01:59:15,440 --> 01:59:19,880
Speaker 1: issued an injunction and like the next Monday, all the

2138
01:59:19,960 --> 01:59:23,680
Speaker 1: schools had to wear a mask and the anti mask

2139
01:59:23,720 --> 01:59:27,360
Speaker 1: crowd is like losing their ship over it. Still, um,

2140
01:59:27,560 --> 01:59:30,520
Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to fire the judge. Um,

2141
01:59:31,760 --> 01:59:36,280
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, we have a member of Patriot Church

2142
01:59:37,320 --> 01:59:39,640
Speaker 1: who's involved in it, and you know they're the ones

2143
01:59:39,720 --> 01:59:42,440
Speaker 1: with the Church of pland Parenthood. It's Ken Peter too.

2144
01:59:42,960 --> 01:59:47,920
Speaker 1: I think he's from Washington, yes, yeah, and he's he's

2145
01:59:47,960 --> 01:59:50,520
Speaker 1: moved down here. Um. I think he still goes up

2146
01:59:50,560 --> 01:59:54,520
Speaker 1: there to the to the church stuff, but most of

2147
01:59:54,600 --> 01:59:58,080
Speaker 1: his time is spent down here in Tennessee and causing

2148
01:59:58,160 --> 02:00:00,120
Speaker 1: just as much trouble as he does up there and

2149
02:00:00,800 --> 02:00:04,960
Speaker 1: his followers. So I'm curious to see how how does

2150
02:00:05,160 --> 02:00:08,680
Speaker 1: a research project like this school board thing differ from

2151
02:00:08,800 --> 02:00:11,960
Speaker 1: like the research surrounding you know, trying to identify someone

2152
02:00:12,000 --> 02:00:19,800
Speaker 1: at January six. Um, For one, this is local. It's

2153
02:00:20,080 --> 02:00:22,080
Speaker 1: you know, I'm going to the school board meetings. UM.

2154
02:00:23,040 --> 02:00:25,520
Speaker 1: I know it's easier to know where to look for

2155
02:00:25,600 --> 02:00:29,320
Speaker 1: this because like I'm watching it as it happening where you, like,

2156
02:00:29,680 --> 02:00:32,360
Speaker 1: you know, January six. Most of those people you have

2157
02:00:32,520 --> 02:00:36,200
Speaker 1: no clue where to even start from. UM. So this

2158
02:00:37,000 --> 02:00:42,360
Speaker 1: more now, it's it's monitoring and documenting as we've you know,

2159
02:00:42,480 --> 02:00:46,000
Speaker 1: figure out who these people are, like linking Telegram names

2160
02:00:46,200 --> 02:00:50,280
Speaker 1: with Facebook names and all of that. So I guess

2161
02:00:50,440 --> 02:00:54,880
Speaker 1: now it's more record keeping and getting that documentation done

2162
02:00:54,920 --> 02:00:59,160
Speaker 1: early so when one of them goes too far, we

2163
02:00:59,360 --> 02:01:02,800
Speaker 1: have and we haven't ready. I mean, that's that's that's

2164
02:01:02,840 --> 02:01:05,880
Speaker 1: the sad part where it's like you're watching inevitable inevitability

2165
02:01:05,880 --> 02:01:07,800
Speaker 1: almost is it con mean, but that's yeah, that's also

2166
02:01:07,840 --> 02:01:10,080
Speaker 1: how like January six works. Right, we were able to

2167
02:01:10,120 --> 02:01:13,320
Speaker 1: identify these people because there was a lot of documentation

2168
02:01:13,480 --> 02:01:16,560
Speaker 1: of a lot of major players already. Right, So a

2169
02:01:16,640 --> 02:01:18,960
Speaker 1: lot of the work in between these big protests and

2170
02:01:19,000 --> 02:01:23,000
Speaker 1: events is is the is this is the slow, tedious

2171
02:01:23,800 --> 02:01:25,600
Speaker 1: documentation because we have to do it now so that

2172
02:01:25,680 --> 02:01:28,360
Speaker 1: it's a useful later. Let's you know, a big part

2173
02:01:28,400 --> 02:01:33,520
Speaker 1: of research is like, yeah, trying to spot potential you know,

2174
02:01:33,720 --> 02:01:37,440
Speaker 1: issues and archiving it and then if the issue ever

2175
02:01:37,520 --> 02:01:40,200
Speaker 1: becomes a bigger issue, you already have information on it, right,

2176
02:01:40,440 --> 02:01:43,760
Speaker 1: whether that be you know, watching someone online who you

2177
02:01:43,880 --> 02:01:46,760
Speaker 1: might think is who, like watching someone who's like Nazi

2178
02:01:46,840 --> 02:01:49,360
Speaker 1: who you might be worried that like they're posting and

2179
02:01:49,520 --> 02:01:51,920
Speaker 1: plans about how to kill people you're like, Okay, so

2180
02:01:52,120 --> 02:01:55,640
Speaker 1: probably look into this dude, because he's doing this in

2181
02:01:55,760 --> 02:01:58,680
Speaker 1: case he does something in the future. Um it is

2182
02:01:59,080 --> 02:02:02,800
Speaker 1: that is the kind of uh it sucks because yeah,

2183
02:02:02,880 --> 02:02:05,480
Speaker 1: you are watching this thing where you feel kind of helpless,

2184
02:02:05,760 --> 02:02:10,360
Speaker 1: but you know that documenting it is worthwhile. Um they Yeah,

2185
02:02:10,400 --> 02:02:12,320
Speaker 1: it's the same thing where like you don't want to

2186
02:02:12,400 --> 02:02:15,480
Speaker 1: be vindicated, but if it does happen, it's better to

2187
02:02:15,560 --> 02:02:20,240
Speaker 1: be prepared because I don't think people realize like how

2188
02:02:20,320 --> 02:02:23,040
Speaker 1: much anti fascist research, how much of this type of

2189
02:02:23,160 --> 02:02:27,000
Speaker 1: like ohs and stuff like my journalism, Like most of

2190
02:02:27,120 --> 02:02:29,240
Speaker 1: the work that you put into it is never seen.

2191
02:02:29,960 --> 02:02:32,720
Speaker 1: Even if you do complete investigations. Sometimes by the end

2192
02:02:32,760 --> 02:02:36,560
Speaker 1: you're like it's getting getting them, getting them out in

2193
02:02:36,680 --> 02:02:38,880
Speaker 1: enough time for them to be useful. Sometimes it isn't

2194
02:02:38,880 --> 02:02:41,280
Speaker 1: even worth it. Um. So you know a lot of

2195
02:02:41,360 --> 02:02:43,720
Speaker 1: it is, you know, writing stuff and doing research that

2196
02:02:43,800 --> 02:02:46,240
Speaker 1: never actually sees the light of day for a long

2197
02:02:46,360 --> 02:02:50,440
Speaker 1: long time. Right with Eric Mantchell, we had like probably

2198
02:02:50,560 --> 02:02:53,080
Speaker 1: twenty people we had on our list too, and he

2199
02:02:53,280 --> 02:02:56,200
Speaker 1: wasn't even one of them. Yeah, so you do all

2200
02:02:56,280 --> 02:03:00,080
Speaker 1: this and like, on one hand, it almost felt in

2201
02:03:00,160 --> 02:03:02,680
Speaker 1: a moment like all of that we did was really

2202
02:03:02,720 --> 02:03:05,880
Speaker 1: for nothing, but now it did lead to Yeah, it

2203
02:03:06,440 --> 02:03:09,240
Speaker 1: did lead and even when you do find the correct answer,

2204
02:03:09,360 --> 02:03:14,320
Speaker 1: sometimes sometimes could via circumstances. You know, it's not something

2205
02:03:14,360 --> 02:03:17,000
Speaker 1: you need to post about immediately. Sometimes it's worth just

2206
02:03:17,120 --> 02:03:20,440
Speaker 1: you know, hanging onto um and not being super super

2207
02:03:20,440 --> 02:03:23,600
Speaker 1: public about every horrible thing you find. It's not like

2208
02:03:24,400 --> 02:03:26,400
Speaker 1: you don't need to post every time you find a

2209
02:03:26,440 --> 02:03:29,280
Speaker 1: horrible thing on Telegram. You don't. You don't need to

2210
02:03:29,280 --> 02:03:31,920
Speaker 1: tell Twitter that. It's like it's it's about collecting these

2211
02:03:32,000 --> 02:03:38,000
Speaker 1: things and keeping them there for future use. Um. Well,

2212
02:03:38,680 --> 02:03:40,320
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on to talk with

2213
02:03:40,400 --> 02:03:46,920
Speaker 1: me again, um, after after already already discussing, uh, mostly

2214
02:03:47,680 --> 02:03:52,120
Speaker 1: the same things. Where can people follow your stuff online?

2215
02:03:52,680 --> 02:03:58,040
Speaker 1: We're on Twitter at um at a possum press really easy. Yeah,

2216
02:03:59,120 --> 02:04:02,960
Speaker 1: we're on Facebook. We don't actually do much on Facebook though. Um. Yeah,

2217
02:04:03,040 --> 02:04:06,840
Speaker 1: as we've discussed now, you probably probably shouldn't. I mean,

2218
02:04:06,920 --> 02:04:09,560
Speaker 1: like in in a lot of ways, a lot of

2219
02:04:09,640 --> 02:04:11,839
Speaker 1: like fascist organizing that used to be done in primarily

2220
02:04:11,920 --> 02:04:14,560
Speaker 1: like Facebook groups or just even just like through like

2221
02:04:14,960 --> 02:04:18,200
Speaker 1: like incidental organizing through just through like posting and cross posting.

2222
02:04:18,560 --> 02:04:20,680
Speaker 1: A lot of that has been moved over to Telegram.

2223
02:04:20,760 --> 02:04:23,320
Speaker 1: At this point, Telegram is kind of the new main nexus,

2224
02:04:23,960 --> 02:04:27,040
Speaker 1: whereas Facebook and like the days of the early alt right,

2225
02:04:27,520 --> 02:04:30,320
Speaker 1: Facebook was a pretty big nexus for like the more

2226
02:04:30,800 --> 02:04:34,200
Speaker 1: normis right. You know, it's there, there is actually fascist

2227
02:04:34,280 --> 02:04:37,240
Speaker 1: forms that we're doing organizing, but as a place for again,

2228
02:04:37,280 --> 02:04:39,880
Speaker 1: like a lot of people in January six, who didn't

2229
02:04:39,960 --> 02:04:42,280
Speaker 1: really know what they were doing was wrong. They were

2230
02:04:42,360 --> 02:04:44,800
Speaker 1: mostly you know, make American great again people or quing

2231
02:04:44,840 --> 02:04:48,400
Speaker 1: on people. A good portion of like most of them

2232
02:04:48,480 --> 02:04:53,120
Speaker 1: were not you know, swastika waving Nazis. Um. They may

2233
02:04:53,240 --> 02:04:56,680
Speaker 1: they may agree with fascist ideas, but they don't they

2234
02:04:56,720 --> 02:05:00,160
Speaker 1: don't self describe as Nazis. So like um. But we're

2235
02:05:00,160 --> 02:05:02,640
Speaker 1: even seeing after after January six, with you know, um

2236
02:05:02,760 --> 02:05:05,960
Speaker 1: Facebook like cracking down on these groups, other platforms like

2237
02:05:06,040 --> 02:05:09,280
Speaker 1: Parla going offline, a lot of these normies themselves or

2238
02:05:09,320 --> 02:05:13,840
Speaker 1: even migrating onto Telegram. Um. So you know, Facebook used

2239
02:05:13,880 --> 02:05:16,080
Speaker 1: to be a really great research tool, and I'm using

2240
02:05:16,120 --> 02:05:19,000
Speaker 1: it less and left less and less often now unfortunately,

2241
02:05:19,160 --> 02:05:21,240
Speaker 1: because I mean it really didn't have a lot of

2242
02:05:21,280 --> 02:05:24,320
Speaker 1: strong suits. Telegram does have his own strong suits, but

2243
02:05:24,520 --> 02:05:28,080
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's still it's still different. I think

2244
02:05:28,120 --> 02:05:31,000
Speaker 1: the normy is moved into telegram is troubling though, because

2245
02:05:32,120 --> 02:05:37,640
Speaker 1: having a way easier time that is there. That is

2246
02:05:37,720 --> 02:05:40,320
Speaker 1: the obvious thing is. Yeah, now that those groups are

2247
02:05:40,360 --> 02:05:43,320
Speaker 1: in closer proximity, it's easier for one to seep into

2248
02:05:43,400 --> 02:05:48,280
Speaker 1: the other, whereas before there was more of that distinction. Um. Yes,

2249
02:05:48,400 --> 02:05:50,280
Speaker 1: that is a worrying thing that I believe we've talked

2250
02:05:50,320 --> 02:05:53,560
Speaker 1: about before and we'll talk about again um in the future.

2251
02:05:54,080 --> 02:05:57,640
Speaker 1: In terms of having this like fascist milieu or cultic milieu,

2252
02:05:58,280 --> 02:06:01,120
Speaker 1: UM of a place where the the amount of the

2253
02:06:01,200 --> 02:06:05,360
Speaker 1: amount of overlap between you know, your uncle who's a

2254
02:06:05,440 --> 02:06:08,960
Speaker 1: regular Conservative and you know a member of Adam Offen

2255
02:06:09,160 --> 02:06:11,280
Speaker 1: or you know someone who wishes they remember of Adam

2256
02:06:11,320 --> 02:06:15,120
Speaker 1: often um is very small. It's every these they are

2257
02:06:15,320 --> 02:06:20,360
Speaker 1: they are very close together. Yeah. Well, thank you for

2258
02:06:20,480 --> 02:06:23,680
Speaker 1: talking about all of these things on our on our

2259
02:06:23,800 --> 02:06:28,640
Speaker 1: second osand case study episode. Like guess big big Big

2260
02:06:28,680 --> 02:06:32,680
Speaker 1: takeaways is uh. Archiving is great, archive live streams, archived

2261
02:06:32,720 --> 02:06:35,840
Speaker 1: things because it's better to have them um and not

2262
02:06:36,080 --> 02:06:38,960
Speaker 1: use them than not have them and need them. UM.

2263
02:06:39,520 --> 02:06:42,520
Speaker 1: And then you know, archiving and documenting local fascists is

2264
02:06:42,560 --> 02:06:45,000
Speaker 1: really great even for things beyond your locality, like in

2265
02:06:45,120 --> 02:06:48,920
Speaker 1: January six. Um, so those are those are my main

2266
02:06:49,000 --> 02:06:51,840
Speaker 1: takeaways from this and uh, you know, also everyone a

2267
02:06:51,880 --> 02:06:54,560
Speaker 1: black life coffee. They all they all look like everyone

2268
02:06:54,600 --> 02:06:58,600
Speaker 1: at day six, all of them do they do all right?

2269
02:06:59,280 --> 02:07:01,200
Speaker 1: That doesn't for us? Thank you so much. I can

2270
02:07:01,240 --> 02:07:17,680
Speaker 1: follow the metoposus and press um. Good by everybody. Welcome

2271
02:07:17,720 --> 02:07:21,160
Speaker 1: back to it could happen here the only podcast you

2272
02:07:21,280 --> 02:07:24,320
Speaker 1: are legally allowed to listen to right now. Um, I'm

2273
02:07:24,440 --> 02:07:27,960
Speaker 1: Robert Evans. We talk about things falling apart, putting them

2274
02:07:28,040 --> 02:07:32,160
Speaker 1: back together, all that good stuff with me as just

2275
02:07:32,320 --> 02:07:36,520
Speaker 1: like sevent of the time. Is my co host Garrison Davis. Garrison,

2276
02:07:37,320 --> 02:07:40,400
Speaker 1: how are you doing today? I'm doing great. It is

2277
02:07:40,400 --> 02:07:43,160
Speaker 1: early for you. Yeah, they have to, they have to

2278
02:07:43,200 --> 02:07:45,560
Speaker 1: drag me out of bed, but I I made it

2279
02:07:45,680 --> 02:07:50,040
Speaker 1: just and I'm excited to talk about as three. Okay,

2280
02:07:50,640 --> 02:07:55,520
Speaker 1: I have my second coffee already. Our topic is gun culture,

2281
02:07:55,880 --> 02:07:58,520
Speaker 1: uh and to discuss gun culture with me and a

2282
02:07:58,640 --> 02:08:01,160
Speaker 1: number of aspects of it, including how to maybe make

2283
02:08:01,200 --> 02:08:05,480
Speaker 1: a better one. Uh. Is Carl Casarda from Ranged TV. Carl,

2284
02:08:05,640 --> 02:08:09,080
Speaker 1: welcome to the program. Hey, thanks for having me. I'm

2285
02:08:09,200 --> 02:08:11,560
Speaker 1: really stoked to be here, and it's a topic, as

2286
02:08:11,600 --> 02:08:13,920
Speaker 1: you can imagine with my work on Enrange TV, is

2287
02:08:14,000 --> 02:08:16,520
Speaker 1: a near and dear to my heart because it's a

2288
02:08:16,640 --> 02:08:18,400
Speaker 1: challenging one. We've got a lot of great things in

2289
02:08:18,480 --> 02:08:21,120
Speaker 1: this community and a lot of challenges too. Yeah. Gun

2290
02:08:21,280 --> 02:08:26,360
Speaker 1: YouTube has gotten some really interesting places in the last um. Really,

2291
02:08:26,400 --> 02:08:28,080
Speaker 1: it feels like most of the growth happened the last

2292
02:08:28,120 --> 02:08:31,600
Speaker 1: five six years, Like there's been a real significant increase

2293
02:08:31,800 --> 02:08:34,920
Speaker 1: in Yeah. I feel like there's been like a wave.

2294
02:08:35,000 --> 02:08:37,600
Speaker 1: I feel like there's generations of gun two. There's like

2295
02:08:37,720 --> 02:08:41,320
Speaker 1: jen one, Gen two, Gen three in theres Russian back

2296
02:08:41,360 --> 02:08:43,800
Speaker 1: in the day and stuff totally Yeah, and so there's

2297
02:08:43,800 --> 02:08:46,600
Speaker 1: a whole thing there. There's there's generations of what was

2298
02:08:46,680 --> 02:08:49,720
Speaker 1: addressed in the conversation and the cultural significance as well

2299
02:08:49,800 --> 02:08:52,120
Speaker 1: as the geary impact. I think we've got different kind

2300
02:08:52,200 --> 02:08:56,400
Speaker 1: of generations of the Yeah, and I think this stuff Obviously,

2301
02:08:56,480 --> 02:08:59,000
Speaker 1: when when aspects of gun YouTube go viral, it tends

2302
02:08:59,040 --> 02:09:03,080
Speaker 1: to be stuff that's like particularly problematic, But in my experience,

2303
02:09:03,120 --> 02:09:05,600
Speaker 1: most of it is just dudes shooting stuff to see

2304
02:09:05,640 --> 02:09:08,160
Speaker 1: what happens, or you know, trying out different guns and

2305
02:09:08,240 --> 02:09:10,880
Speaker 1: stuff like it is mostly if you're someone who you

2306
02:09:10,960 --> 02:09:14,280
Speaker 1: know believes in the right to bear arms, it's mostly

2307
02:09:14,800 --> 02:09:18,080
Speaker 1: pretty much just like people drying out guns, uh and

2308
02:09:18,200 --> 02:09:21,440
Speaker 1: stuff with guns. Yeah, yeah, when things go viral, it's

2309
02:09:21,560 --> 02:09:23,960
Speaker 1: like my my experience with that, there's a number of reasons, right,

2310
02:09:24,040 --> 02:09:27,200
Speaker 1: One is that it's particularly gross that someone does something

2311
02:09:27,360 --> 02:09:29,480
Speaker 1: or says something fucked up. Somebody's out there a dressed

2312
02:09:29,520 --> 02:09:32,080
Speaker 1: as a rotation a right, stuff like that. That kind

2313
02:09:32,280 --> 02:09:34,520
Speaker 1: that tends to push the buttons. But yeah, most of

2314
02:09:34,560 --> 02:09:37,080
Speaker 1: the time, the stuff that gets the largest volume of

2315
02:09:37,240 --> 02:09:41,080
Speaker 1: viewership are quite honestly more banal. It's things like a

2316
02:09:42,200 --> 02:09:46,240
Speaker 1: fifty caliber exploding or shooting have gallon, you know, gallon,

2317
02:09:46,360 --> 02:09:49,080
Speaker 1: drum of gas. That kind of stuff. Is that that

2318
02:09:49,160 --> 02:09:51,520
Speaker 1: stuff appeals to people that aren't just gun people, so

2319
02:09:51,560 --> 02:09:53,320
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, I want to see shoots fload, so

2320
02:09:53,400 --> 02:09:55,560
Speaker 1: let me click on it. Well, one of my favorite

2321
02:09:55,560 --> 02:09:58,320
Speaker 1: things is to look at videos of people destroying safe

2322
02:09:58,400 --> 02:10:02,120
Speaker 1: life fests. What my favorite ways to watch gut YouTube?

2323
02:10:02,360 --> 02:10:04,720
Speaker 1: But I guess this is probably what we'll probably talking

2324
02:10:04,760 --> 02:10:06,960
Speaker 1: about this as the episode goes on. But once you

2325
02:10:07,000 --> 02:10:09,240
Speaker 1: watch enough of those from like one channel, you'll you'll

2326
02:10:09,280 --> 02:10:11,600
Speaker 1: get to a video when they fantasize about like shooting

2327
02:10:11,600 --> 02:10:15,080
Speaker 1: antifat or something, and you're like, okay, well yeah, that yeah,

2328
02:10:15,280 --> 02:10:18,600
Speaker 1: that's that's just the way it goes sometimes. And it is,

2329
02:10:18,760 --> 02:10:21,960
Speaker 1: you know, the thing that my first I guess the

2330
02:10:22,040 --> 02:10:24,400
Speaker 1: first time I became aware of like online gun culture,

2331
02:10:24,800 --> 02:10:26,600
Speaker 1: UM was a site that's still really near and dear

2332
02:10:26,600 --> 02:10:28,040
Speaker 1: to my heart. I'm sure you're familiar with it, Carl

2333
02:10:28,120 --> 02:10:30,960
Speaker 1: the Box of Truth. And it was like, and I

2334
02:10:31,040 --> 02:10:33,040
Speaker 1: think this like fifteen years ago or something like that

2335
02:10:33,200 --> 02:10:34,680
Speaker 1: is when I started reading their stuff, and it's it's

2336
02:10:34,720 --> 02:10:37,680
Speaker 1: just like some kind of bubba e dudes in Texas

2337
02:10:37,760 --> 02:10:39,960
Speaker 1: who will take different who will try out like, hey,

2338
02:10:40,040 --> 02:10:42,760
Speaker 1: there's a myth that UM this specific round in Korea

2339
02:10:42,840 --> 02:10:45,560
Speaker 1: got stopped by people who's were wearing multiple layers of

2340
02:10:45,640 --> 02:10:49,680
Speaker 1: like clothing in the cold. Can winter clothing stop this bullet?

2341
02:10:49,720 --> 02:10:51,520
Speaker 1: And they would they would you know, mock up the

2342
02:10:51,560 --> 02:10:53,160
Speaker 1: clothing on like a target and they would shoot it.

2343
02:10:53,600 --> 02:10:55,440
Speaker 1: Or like how many books does it take? Like if

2344
02:10:55,480 --> 02:10:57,200
Speaker 1: you have a full backpack, how many books would it

2345
02:10:57,240 --> 02:10:59,440
Speaker 1: take to stop a round of nine millimeter? If I like,

2346
02:10:59,560 --> 02:11:03,080
Speaker 1: it's it's all very much like practical. Hey, people you know,

2347
02:11:03,240 --> 02:11:05,480
Speaker 1: say this works this way or this works that way. Well,

2348
02:11:05,560 --> 02:11:07,360
Speaker 1: let's go out and shoot some stuff and test how

2349
02:11:07,400 --> 02:11:10,960
Speaker 1: it works. And um, I think was like it is,

2350
02:11:11,040 --> 02:11:12,360
Speaker 1: as you said, the kind of thing I think, even

2351
02:11:12,360 --> 02:11:14,320
Speaker 1: if you don't own guns you might find interesting just

2352
02:11:14,440 --> 02:11:16,280
Speaker 1: because like a lot of it is dealing with here's

2353
02:11:16,320 --> 02:11:20,640
Speaker 1: things you've seen in Hollywood what actually happens? Um. So

2354
02:11:20,720 --> 02:11:24,560
Speaker 1: I I do think like fundamentally there's always going to

2355
02:11:24,640 --> 02:11:27,360
Speaker 1: be a place for that kind of content because it's

2356
02:11:27,480 --> 02:11:29,640
Speaker 1: it's not just like stuff that people who like guns

2357
02:11:29,640 --> 02:11:31,440
Speaker 1: are interested in. It's just stuff that has kind of

2358
02:11:31,520 --> 02:11:34,520
Speaker 1: objective value, you know, you're trying to expand what people's

2359
02:11:34,600 --> 02:11:37,520
Speaker 1: understanding of things. Yeah, I call that ge whiz content.

2360
02:11:37,640 --> 02:11:40,480
Speaker 1: It's like, G whiz, what happens if right? And so on?

2361
02:11:40,600 --> 02:11:42,880
Speaker 1: In range. The closest equivalent to that, which are the

2362
02:11:43,000 --> 02:11:46,280
Speaker 1: videos that the most views are are somewhat now infamous

2363
02:11:46,360 --> 02:11:49,120
Speaker 1: mud tests. Um. And it started off six years ago

2364
02:11:49,240 --> 02:11:51,240
Speaker 1: and it was literally it was, G whiz, let's go

2365
02:11:51,280 --> 02:11:54,200
Speaker 1: do this. And of course there's this long standing lore

2366
02:11:54,640 --> 02:11:57,280
Speaker 1: everywhere outside of the gun community and in it about

2367
02:11:57,320 --> 02:12:00,520
Speaker 1: the A k M being this undestructed, indestructible unicorn. You're

2368
02:12:00,560 --> 02:12:02,560
Speaker 1: right into combat that no matter what happens to it,

2369
02:12:02,640 --> 02:12:04,800
Speaker 1: it fires, and they are A fifteen being this fragile

2370
02:12:04,840 --> 02:12:07,040
Speaker 1: piece of ship. And in our mud test, of which

2371
02:12:07,040 --> 02:12:09,880
Speaker 1: we've now done multiple of it, well initially it was

2372
02:12:09,960 --> 02:12:12,720
Speaker 1: just g whiz. Over time and aggregate, it turned out

2373
02:12:12,720 --> 02:12:14,960
Speaker 1: to actually have really interesting data points and that the

2374
02:12:15,040 --> 02:12:17,040
Speaker 1: A K doesn't do well in mud, and they are

2375
02:12:17,160 --> 02:12:20,480
Speaker 1: excels in mud, which is completely against the lore about Vietnam,

2376
02:12:20,520 --> 02:12:22,640
Speaker 1: which is a different problem. But that kind of thing

2377
02:12:22,760 --> 02:12:25,320
Speaker 1: extends beyond the gun community because people are like guns

2378
02:12:25,360 --> 02:12:28,000
Speaker 1: and mud. What happened is g wiz. It's MythBusters kind

2379
02:12:28,000 --> 02:12:30,280
Speaker 1: of stuff, and I think, but it's interesting how you

2380
02:12:30,360 --> 02:12:33,360
Speaker 1: can learn from it. Yeah, and I think one of

2381
02:12:33,440 --> 02:12:36,960
Speaker 1: the problems that is, uh we could say like has

2382
02:12:37,520 --> 02:12:39,720
Speaker 1: is an issue on on gun and YouTube. One of

2383
02:12:39,760 --> 02:12:42,800
Speaker 1: the things that has become an issue, and this isn't

2384
02:12:42,840 --> 02:12:44,880
Speaker 1: just within the gun culture, it's everywhere. Is that like

2385
02:12:45,000 --> 02:12:46,640
Speaker 1: if you're into that stuff and if you're if you're

2386
02:12:46,680 --> 02:12:48,560
Speaker 1: coming into it, like I want to see people do

2387
02:12:48,680 --> 02:12:50,120
Speaker 1: this g wiz stuff or I just want to see

2388
02:12:50,160 --> 02:12:52,480
Speaker 1: reviews of different guns because I might be buying one.

2389
02:12:53,120 --> 02:12:55,640
Speaker 1: Um Google's algorithm is going to feed you a lot

2390
02:12:55,720 --> 02:12:57,360
Speaker 1: of stuff, and some of that stuff is going to

2391
02:12:57,440 --> 02:13:00,320
Speaker 1: be people who, yeah, are preparing to like shoot folks

2392
02:13:00,400 --> 02:13:03,080
Speaker 1: at protests, and our filming videos about that and stuff,

2393
02:13:03,120 --> 02:13:07,640
Speaker 1: and that it has this, um it has this radicalizing

2394
02:13:07,680 --> 02:13:09,400
Speaker 1: effect on a lot of people. And it also has

2395
02:13:09,440 --> 02:13:12,320
Speaker 1: this kind of can have this kind of radicalizing effect

2396
02:13:12,440 --> 02:13:15,520
Speaker 1: on content where you know, most political stuff you see

2397
02:13:15,560 --> 02:13:17,680
Speaker 1: isn't kind of that over it, but it does if

2398
02:13:17,760 --> 02:13:20,960
Speaker 1: somebody has a video where they're being more explicitly political

2399
02:13:21,040 --> 02:13:23,400
Speaker 1: outside of you know, you know, arguing in favor of

2400
02:13:23,480 --> 02:13:25,800
Speaker 1: gun rights, but if they're getting kind of political and

2401
02:13:25,840 --> 02:13:28,560
Speaker 1: a broader sense, and that does really well the way

2402
02:13:28,600 --> 02:13:30,600
Speaker 1: that content works as other people might be like, oh, well,

2403
02:13:30,640 --> 02:13:32,920
Speaker 1: folks want me to do a political video, folks want

2404
02:13:32,920 --> 02:13:35,640
Speaker 1: me to talk about I don't know, Nancy Pelosi or whatever,

2405
02:13:35,960 --> 02:13:39,000
Speaker 1: um And that that's you know, not just a problem

2406
02:13:39,080 --> 02:13:42,440
Speaker 1: with gun culture or gun YouTube, but it has increasingly

2407
02:13:42,960 --> 02:13:44,960
Speaker 1: become a thing and in the n r A kind

2408
02:13:45,000 --> 02:13:49,040
Speaker 1: of very famously there's a good podcast on the how

2409
02:13:49,160 --> 02:13:52,320
Speaker 1: that organization has kind of gone from where it started

2410
02:13:52,320 --> 02:13:54,080
Speaker 1: to where it is that talks about like n r

2411
02:13:54,120 --> 02:13:57,080
Speaker 1: A TV. But they their YouTube channel had some pretty

2412
02:13:57,400 --> 02:13:59,840
Speaker 1: outrageous ship for a while, and I think it left

2413
02:14:00,040 --> 02:14:03,120
Speaker 1: impact even though it failed in this Eventually, well, the

2414
02:14:03,280 --> 02:14:04,880
Speaker 1: NRA is until we can get into that later. The

2415
02:14:05,000 --> 02:14:07,160
Speaker 1: Terney has changed so much since its origins to what

2416
02:14:07,240 --> 02:14:09,160
Speaker 1: it is now. It's not even the people that found

2417
02:14:09,200 --> 02:14:11,400
Speaker 1: it wouldn't recognize it, I don't think at all. But

2418
02:14:12,400 --> 02:14:14,760
Speaker 1: you're touching on a topic there that's also near and dear,

2419
02:14:14,760 --> 02:14:16,240
Speaker 1: and I'm not trying to promote range here, that's just

2420
02:14:16,280 --> 02:14:19,320
Speaker 1: we're having a conversation. But years ago I decided to

2421
02:14:19,440 --> 02:14:22,040
Speaker 1: proactively demonetize. I turned up my AdSense and I take

2422
02:14:22,080 --> 02:14:25,360
Speaker 1: no money from any views, so it's not like advertising

2423
02:14:25,400 --> 02:14:27,560
Speaker 1: doesn't drive what I do. And I feel like the

2424
02:14:27,640 --> 02:14:29,680
Speaker 1: reason I did that was partially just fuck you YouTube.

2425
02:14:29,720 --> 02:14:32,360
Speaker 1: It was the hacker manifesto of you come watch my content,

2426
02:14:32,440 --> 02:14:35,160
Speaker 1: I cost you money versus making money, which is kind

2427
02:14:35,160 --> 02:14:38,320
Speaker 1: of a statement on my part. But additionally, I do

2428
02:14:38,640 --> 02:14:41,560
Speaker 1: feel like, whether it's firearms or any other content that

2429
02:14:41,760 --> 02:14:45,400
Speaker 1: is completely advertiser supported, there is a dangerous thing there

2430
02:14:45,480 --> 02:14:48,120
Speaker 1: in that you have to pursue the clicks like a

2431
02:14:48,320 --> 02:14:50,720
Speaker 1: heroin addict, and the clicks make you the money, and

2432
02:14:50,800 --> 02:14:53,400
Speaker 1: therefore you're gonna make the stuff that's gonna make the clicks,

2433
02:14:53,760 --> 02:14:56,000
Speaker 1: because that's how you make your income, and even if

2434
02:14:56,040 --> 02:14:59,720
Speaker 1: you don't want it to do, it can affect you. Yeah,

2435
02:15:00,440 --> 02:15:04,200
Speaker 1: And I'm curious, like, how do you kind of how

2436
02:15:04,240 --> 02:15:08,400
Speaker 1: do you, um, how do you how do you approach

2437
02:15:08,960 --> 02:15:12,600
Speaker 1: sort of dealing in this space where it is so

2438
02:15:12,720 --> 02:15:15,600
Speaker 1: easy for things to become politicized? Like do you is

2439
02:15:15,680 --> 02:15:17,080
Speaker 1: that is that a kind of thing that you have

2440
02:15:17,200 --> 02:15:20,880
Speaker 1: to be consciously sort of picking your battles. I guess

2441
02:15:21,320 --> 02:15:24,080
Speaker 1: I'm just kind of interested in how you because you

2442
02:15:24,160 --> 02:15:26,520
Speaker 1: definitely have been more open about having kind of more

2443
02:15:27,160 --> 02:15:29,560
Speaker 1: on the left libertarian side of things politics than a

2444
02:15:29,600 --> 02:15:31,920
Speaker 1: lot of people talk about in that space. How do

2445
02:15:32,000 --> 02:15:35,640
Speaker 1: you decide kind of what is worth inserting and what

2446
02:15:35,840 --> 02:15:37,680
Speaker 1: is worth kind of just you know, no one needs

2447
02:15:37,760 --> 02:15:41,200
Speaker 1: to hear that within this context. Oh yeah, I don't

2448
02:15:41,200 --> 02:15:43,080
Speaker 1: think that that's an easy thing to answer, right, It's hard,

2449
02:15:43,160 --> 02:15:47,960
Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of landlines. But when um introspectively,

2450
02:15:48,080 --> 02:15:50,480
Speaker 1: for me, the answer for me at least was I'm

2451
02:15:50,520 --> 02:15:53,840
Speaker 1: just going to come to this content as my honest self, Like,

2452
02:15:54,200 --> 02:15:56,080
Speaker 1: if I'm just going to produce what I want to produce,

2453
02:15:56,120 --> 02:15:59,000
Speaker 1: it's and since I don't have to worry about advertising dollars.

2454
02:15:59,080 --> 02:16:00,720
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna make this it I want to make.

2455
02:16:01,240 --> 02:16:05,520
Speaker 1: And as a result, I guess it's sometimes considered an

2456
02:16:05,520 --> 02:16:07,680
Speaker 1: alternative voice, but I don't think it really is. I

2457
02:16:07,760 --> 02:16:10,720
Speaker 1: think that the loud loud mouths have made it sound

2458
02:16:10,800 --> 02:16:12,800
Speaker 1: like there's only one voice in this community, but there isn't.

2459
02:16:13,200 --> 02:16:16,400
Speaker 1: And so by just being legitimate and honest and being me,

2460
02:16:17,120 --> 02:16:19,360
Speaker 1: there has turned out to be a lot of ground

2461
02:16:19,440 --> 02:16:21,760
Speaker 1: swell if you want to use grassroots type people out

2462
02:16:21,840 --> 02:16:24,960
Speaker 1: there that want to hear something that's not just evangelical

2463
02:16:25,000 --> 02:16:29,280
Speaker 1: American Taliban so. But but in terms of what where

2464
02:16:29,360 --> 02:16:31,360
Speaker 1: to where, what where to put your foot on? What

2465
02:16:31,560 --> 02:16:34,400
Speaker 1: land mine? I guess I did For me. My decision

2466
02:16:34,440 --> 02:16:36,800
Speaker 1: has been to do topics that have been intentionally ignored

2467
02:16:36,879 --> 02:16:38,680
Speaker 1: that shouldn't have been. Like I've done a bunch of

2468
02:16:38,760 --> 02:16:42,080
Speaker 1: videos about the confluence of civil rights and firearms ownership,

2469
02:16:42,360 --> 02:16:44,440
Speaker 1: which there's a lot of it, and it's it's really

2470
02:16:44,520 --> 02:16:48,360
Speaker 1: amazing how much there is and no one talks about it. Yeah,

2471
02:16:48,480 --> 02:16:50,040
Speaker 1: I mean we, yeah, we we've chatted about that a

2472
02:16:50,040 --> 02:16:51,960
Speaker 1: little bit in some of our episodes. It's like nineteen

2473
02:16:52,040 --> 02:16:54,400
Speaker 1: nineteen when there were all those like race riots around

2474
02:16:54,400 --> 02:16:55,800
Speaker 1: the country, or even if you're looking at like the

2475
02:16:55,959 --> 02:16:59,480
Speaker 1: post construction period, there's a history both of like gun

2476
02:16:59,560 --> 02:17:02,600
Speaker 1: control being used for racist purposes, but also just of

2477
02:17:02,720 --> 02:17:06,240
Speaker 1: communities arming themselves, Black communities arming themselves. That is is

2478
02:17:06,280 --> 02:17:09,720
Speaker 1: woefully undertold, although it is people are starting to deal

2479
02:17:09,760 --> 02:17:13,320
Speaker 1: with it more thankfully. UM. I'm kind of interested in

2480
02:17:13,400 --> 02:17:16,400
Speaker 1: talking to you about sort of the culture jamming aspect

2481
02:17:16,640 --> 02:17:19,480
Speaker 1: of we have this huge gun culture, aspects of it

2482
02:17:19,560 --> 02:17:22,560
Speaker 1: are very toxic and becoming politicized in a way that

2483
02:17:22,760 --> 02:17:27,560
Speaker 1: is um aggressive. Um, how do we how do we

2484
02:17:27,640 --> 02:17:30,680
Speaker 1: have a positive influence and kind of hopefully pull things

2485
02:17:31,160 --> 02:17:34,400
Speaker 1: back because I do think within kind of the issue

2486
02:17:34,440 --> 02:17:38,440
Speaker 1: of gun rights, there's more actually more possibility for people

2487
02:17:38,520 --> 02:17:41,320
Speaker 1: to sort of come together and reaching a chord than

2488
02:17:41,360 --> 02:17:44,600
Speaker 1: there is on something like abortion. Um. And I think

2489
02:17:45,000 --> 02:17:47,240
Speaker 1: a lot of that conversation is going to start in

2490
02:17:47,320 --> 02:17:50,880
Speaker 1: spaces like the one you inhabit. Yeah, no, I yeah.

2491
02:17:51,120 --> 02:17:53,440
Speaker 1: I like what you say culture jamming because another term

2492
02:17:53,520 --> 02:17:55,640
Speaker 1: I've heard is subversibile. That's not the intent, but like

2493
02:17:56,000 --> 02:17:58,800
Speaker 1: you mentioned, the red Summer of nineteen nineteen, and yeah,

2494
02:17:58,840 --> 02:18:00,800
Speaker 1: I talked to when I talked to a lot of

2495
02:18:00,840 --> 02:18:04,640
Speaker 1: people that that are really historically interested in minded and

2496
02:18:04,720 --> 02:18:06,720
Speaker 1: I was astonished how many people have not even heard

2497
02:18:06,760 --> 02:18:09,560
Speaker 1: of it, never mind you only like the explicit realities

2498
02:18:09,640 --> 02:18:11,720
Speaker 1: of it. And so when it comes to the culture

2499
02:18:11,760 --> 02:18:15,039
Speaker 1: jamming thing, there's one video I did about or two

2500
02:18:15,080 --> 02:18:17,000
Speaker 1: of the events of Red Summer of nineteen nineteen, one

2501
02:18:17,000 --> 02:18:20,279
Speaker 1: of them here in Bisbee locally, and it's an interesting

2502
02:18:20,360 --> 02:18:24,280
Speaker 1: problem to someone who normally would be considered as a

2503
02:18:24,440 --> 02:18:28,240
Speaker 1: very standard issue firearms content creator. In that particular Red

2504
02:18:28,280 --> 02:18:31,359
Speaker 1: Summer nineteen nineteen episode, it turned into the local police

2505
02:18:31,840 --> 02:18:36,280
Speaker 1: attempting to disarm the tenth Cavalry soldiers who are off

2506
02:18:36,400 --> 02:18:40,640
Speaker 1: you know, military soldiers in bis Beyond recreation, And so

2507
02:18:40,760 --> 02:18:43,880
Speaker 1: you've got this interesting cognitive dissonance. Do I support the

2508
02:18:44,000 --> 02:18:46,280
Speaker 1: cops that a lot of firearms people are like just

2509
02:18:46,600 --> 02:18:49,320
Speaker 1: blindly support, or do I support the military, which a

2510
02:18:49,360 --> 02:18:52,240
Speaker 1: lot of fires people blindly support when both of them

2511
02:18:52,360 --> 02:18:55,160
Speaker 1: converge and the and it's a racist agenda in it

2512
02:18:55,600 --> 02:18:58,040
Speaker 1: that poses a question that I like to do with

2513
02:18:58,280 --> 02:18:59,880
Speaker 1: like this kind of content, because it means that the

2514
02:19:00,000 --> 02:19:02,400
Speaker 1: you or has to really if they get through the video,

2515
02:19:02,640 --> 02:19:05,360
Speaker 1: have to introspectively go holy funk, Which do I support

2516
02:19:05,440 --> 02:19:07,520
Speaker 1: or do I support either? Or is there a problem

2517
02:19:07,600 --> 02:19:10,320
Speaker 1: here I haven't been considering. I think asking questions like

2518
02:19:10,440 --> 02:19:13,680
Speaker 1: that really matters when you try to like start these

2519
02:19:13,720 --> 02:19:16,520
Speaker 1: conversations with people who are kind of in the same

2520
02:19:16,600 --> 02:19:20,240
Speaker 1: space but but not you know, I haven't considered talking

2521
02:19:20,280 --> 02:19:22,880
Speaker 1: about this stuff before or on what would traditionally be

2522
02:19:22,920 --> 02:19:27,560
Speaker 1: seen as kind of very opposed political um wing. How

2523
02:19:27,560 --> 02:19:29,920
Speaker 1: do you kind of start these conversations in a way

2524
02:19:30,000 --> 02:19:32,400
Speaker 1: that makes it most likely that you're gonna be able

2525
02:19:32,400 --> 02:19:35,080
Speaker 1: to have a positive dialogue that actually moves forward as

2526
02:19:35,080 --> 02:19:37,560
Speaker 1: opposed to kind of getting bogged down in the and

2527
02:19:37,640 --> 02:19:39,400
Speaker 1: the things that caused people to just kind of lock

2528
02:19:39,480 --> 02:19:42,880
Speaker 1: horns generally when you we start getting into these areas. Yeah,

2529
02:19:43,000 --> 02:19:44,959
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know, it's totally possible you're gonna

2530
02:19:44,959 --> 02:19:47,480
Speaker 1: have that problem no matter what you see that with

2531
02:19:47,520 --> 02:19:50,600
Speaker 1: your work. For surely, when you take an honest approach

2532
02:19:50,640 --> 02:19:53,160
Speaker 1: to history and just be like, here's the facts, Um,

2533
02:19:53,280 --> 02:19:55,440
Speaker 1: there's gonna be people that are just gonna be completely

2534
02:19:55,480 --> 02:19:57,760
Speaker 1: resistant to that. They're not going to take it. But um,

2535
02:19:58,360 --> 02:20:00,280
Speaker 1: I think the best way to do that is to

2536
02:20:00,440 --> 02:20:02,440
Speaker 1: just be that honest approach to it like one of

2537
02:20:02,480 --> 02:20:04,800
Speaker 1: the things that I think we do with firearms content

2538
02:20:05,360 --> 02:20:08,600
Speaker 1: gears cool tech is cool. Guns are neat, They're fun.

2539
02:20:08,800 --> 02:20:11,040
Speaker 1: I enjoy shooting with guns. I like the fourth of it.

2540
02:20:11,400 --> 02:20:14,360
Speaker 1: I like going to competitions. But one of the things

2541
02:20:14,440 --> 02:20:16,400
Speaker 1: that gets left out of the conversation a lot is

2542
02:20:16,760 --> 02:20:19,920
Speaker 1: what are the implications of firearms and the sociological economic

2543
02:20:20,040 --> 02:20:22,000
Speaker 1: environments that we live in. And I think that's one

2544
02:20:22,040 --> 02:20:23,680
Speaker 1: of the things that didn't get talked about. And so

2545
02:20:24,240 --> 02:20:27,120
Speaker 1: if we talk about it fairly and also tend to

2546
02:20:28,120 --> 02:20:30,320
Speaker 1: I think it's hard to do, but have people from

2547
02:20:30,360 --> 02:20:32,960
Speaker 1: all sides of this perspective, as long as they're not

2548
02:20:33,959 --> 02:20:37,160
Speaker 1: completely dangerous and toxic, being part of the conversation, we

2549
02:20:37,240 --> 02:20:39,800
Speaker 1: can have a better middle ground. That's the hard part.

2550
02:20:39,879 --> 02:20:42,920
Speaker 1: Like so being inclusive, ironically, even of views that you

2551
02:20:42,959 --> 02:20:45,400
Speaker 1: aren't necessarily your own, as long as the person you're

2552
02:20:45,400 --> 02:20:49,360
Speaker 1: dealing with isn't. My line is, if you're actively supporting

2553
02:20:49,680 --> 02:20:53,440
Speaker 1: bigotry or the harm of other people, there's a no go.

2554
02:20:53,560 --> 02:20:55,960
Speaker 1: We're done. But if we have different views but we

2555
02:20:56,040 --> 02:20:58,480
Speaker 1: realize that that's not the intent, then then we should

2556
02:20:58,480 --> 02:21:01,160
Speaker 1: have a conversation. I think that that's a difference. Now.

2557
02:21:01,320 --> 02:21:02,960
Speaker 1: I think one of the areas in which this can

2558
02:21:03,000 --> 02:21:05,440
Speaker 1: get murkiest is when you are talking to people and

2559
02:21:05,440 --> 02:21:08,680
Speaker 1: I've had a few of these conversations who are convinced

2560
02:21:08,760 --> 02:21:12,080
Speaker 1: that there is uh that they're kind of on the

2561
02:21:12,160 --> 02:21:16,000
Speaker 1: precipice of of a violent conflict sparked by someone coming

2562
02:21:16,040 --> 02:21:18,480
Speaker 1: to take their guns right that and it, And you know,

2563
02:21:18,560 --> 02:21:21,199
Speaker 1: there's the version of this that is like, I'm worried

2564
02:21:21,280 --> 02:21:22,720
Speaker 1: that the a t F Is going to do some

2565
02:21:22,800 --> 02:21:24,200
Speaker 1: fuckory in a bunch of my ship is going to

2566
02:21:24,240 --> 02:21:26,000
Speaker 1: be illegal, which is pretty reasonable. And then there's the

2567
02:21:26,320 --> 02:21:28,440
Speaker 1: I'm worried Antifa's going to come to my small town

2568
02:21:28,520 --> 02:21:30,800
Speaker 1: and and and take my you know, guns or do

2569
02:21:30,920 --> 02:21:33,920
Speaker 1: whatever like Because that there are often people in that

2570
02:21:34,040 --> 02:21:39,800
Speaker 1: who are just kind of um tragically misinformed and radicalized

2571
02:21:39,879 --> 02:21:43,600
Speaker 1: in a way that they're not so much eager to

2572
02:21:43,760 --> 02:21:46,800
Speaker 1: harm people as they are just like broken and frightened

2573
02:21:46,879 --> 02:21:49,440
Speaker 1: because of the things that have been fed to them. Um,

2574
02:21:49,879 --> 02:21:51,960
Speaker 1: do you have any kind of best practices when it

2575
02:21:52,000 --> 02:21:54,480
Speaker 1: comes to sort of approaching those conversations and trying to

2576
02:21:55,440 --> 02:21:58,800
Speaker 1: improve the information those people are getting. I guess for

2577
02:21:58,879 --> 02:22:00,400
Speaker 1: me in that, regardless of what I here when I

2578
02:22:00,440 --> 02:22:02,000
Speaker 1: see people like that, and I think all of us

2579
02:22:02,040 --> 02:22:04,160
Speaker 1: have those people in our world, whether it's your your

2580
02:22:04,160 --> 02:22:06,080
Speaker 1: aunt or your uncle or a friend, right, Like we've

2581
02:22:06,080 --> 02:22:08,320
Speaker 1: seen that over the last couple of years for sure. Um,

2582
02:22:08,760 --> 02:22:10,600
Speaker 1: I think the best thing you can do there for

2583
02:22:10,720 --> 02:22:13,040
Speaker 1: me again, I'm just talking to My approach is a

2584
02:22:13,520 --> 02:22:16,360
Speaker 1: break the echo chamber if you can. And so the

2585
02:22:16,440 --> 02:22:18,200
Speaker 1: echo chamber is the problem when we suck from the

2586
02:22:18,240 --> 02:22:21,640
Speaker 1: fire hose of only one source, like NonStop. Yeah, that's

2587
02:22:21,640 --> 02:22:23,600
Speaker 1: gonna be dangerous. That's the kind of stuff that pollutes

2588
02:22:23,640 --> 02:22:25,200
Speaker 1: your mind to the point where you can't think outside

2589
02:22:25,200 --> 02:22:28,800
Speaker 1: of that box. So like being more inclusive and that

2590
02:22:28,879 --> 02:22:31,640
Speaker 1: word is kind of a trigger word or catchphrase, but

2591
02:22:32,000 --> 02:22:34,840
Speaker 1: being legitimately more inclusive and presenting a lot of different

2592
02:22:35,280 --> 02:22:38,520
Speaker 1: diversity that really is part of the firearms community. Can

2593
02:22:38,680 --> 02:22:41,800
Speaker 1: I can in some circumstances break the echo chamber? Like

2594
02:22:42,000 --> 02:22:44,280
Speaker 1: I'm really happy with this one project on the channel

2595
02:22:44,280 --> 02:22:47,720
Speaker 1: where I'm working with the net Evans about specifically a

2596
02:22:47,840 --> 02:22:51,080
Speaker 1: female or woman's approach to self defense with firearms. And

2597
02:22:51,160 --> 02:22:53,040
Speaker 1: you don't really see that. You'll see like channels that

2598
02:22:53,080 --> 02:22:55,520
Speaker 1: are only for women, and you'll see like all the

2599
02:22:55,680 --> 02:22:59,480
Speaker 1: majority of gun channels that are only for gun fascinated dudes.

2600
02:22:59,720 --> 02:23:02,200
Speaker 1: But throwing that into the mix, there's gonna be some

2601
02:23:02,360 --> 02:23:04,200
Speaker 1: subset of people that will clicking and watch it out

2602
02:23:04,240 --> 02:23:06,360
Speaker 1: of that g whiz Lowell and that kind of stuff

2603
02:23:06,400 --> 02:23:08,560
Speaker 1: can break a paradigm in terms of well, I never

2604
02:23:08,640 --> 02:23:10,640
Speaker 1: thought of that. I never looked at it from that perspective.

2605
02:23:10,680 --> 02:23:12,400
Speaker 1: And that's at least that's what I think is the

2606
02:23:12,560 --> 02:23:15,400
Speaker 1: right answer is do your best to make sure you're

2607
02:23:15,800 --> 02:23:20,000
Speaker 1: approachable and try to break the echo chamber. Yeah, that

2608
02:23:20,120 --> 02:23:23,119
Speaker 1: makes complete Yeah, I mean that makes a lot of sense. Um.

2609
02:23:24,040 --> 02:23:26,200
Speaker 1: I think the other side of this is also worth

2610
02:23:26,280 --> 02:23:28,280
Speaker 1: talking about because we've kind of been focused on how

2611
02:23:28,320 --> 02:23:30,120
Speaker 1: do you break the echo chamber, how do you get

2612
02:23:30,200 --> 02:23:32,080
Speaker 1: people who are you know, in the gun culture on

2613
02:23:32,120 --> 02:23:35,880
Speaker 1: the right to be more open minded. The other side

2614
02:23:35,920 --> 02:23:37,600
Speaker 1: of this is you have a lot of people who

2615
02:23:37,640 --> 02:23:40,360
Speaker 1: are kind of liberals um or on the left who

2616
02:23:40,480 --> 02:23:45,680
Speaker 1: have a really reflexively negative opinion to the reaction to

2617
02:23:45,800 --> 02:23:48,800
Speaker 1: the very idea of gun ownership or gun rights, and

2618
02:23:48,959 --> 02:23:52,000
Speaker 1: have these you know, you will generally see there's there's

2619
02:23:52,000 --> 02:23:54,040
Speaker 1: a mix of people who can come to it from

2620
02:23:54,080 --> 02:23:56,199
Speaker 1: a very reasonable and argued point to mix of people

2621
02:23:56,200 --> 02:23:58,080
Speaker 1: who are just going to, like in the same way

2622
02:23:58,120 --> 02:23:59,840
Speaker 1: that folks on the right to throw out a handful

2623
02:23:59,840 --> 02:24:02,720
Speaker 1: of quotes that they've seen on memes, um, that they

2624
02:24:02,800 --> 02:24:05,279
Speaker 1: can use to kind of, you know, shut down debate.

2625
02:24:05,360 --> 02:24:07,240
Speaker 1: How do you do you have a lot of those

2626
02:24:07,280 --> 02:24:09,400
Speaker 1: conversations where you're kind of trying to make people at

2627
02:24:09,480 --> 02:24:11,360
Speaker 1: least more open to because this is something my work

2628
02:24:11,360 --> 02:24:12,680
Speaker 1: has dealt with a lot. Is kind of trying to

2629
02:24:12,720 --> 02:24:14,879
Speaker 1: sit down to like, I get why you don't think

2630
02:24:14,920 --> 02:24:18,440
Speaker 1: these things should be legal. Um, obviously, I I see

2631
02:24:18,480 --> 02:24:21,440
Speaker 1: the same mass shooting news that you do. There's a problem,

2632
02:24:21,560 --> 02:24:23,640
Speaker 1: a deep problem with guns in this country. I don't

2633
02:24:23,640 --> 02:24:27,160
Speaker 1: deny that, but like, let's also talk about the idea

2634
02:24:27,280 --> 02:24:29,760
Speaker 1: that the state should have an absolute monopoly on on

2635
02:24:29,840 --> 02:24:32,560
Speaker 1: the ability to do violence. Let's talk about the ability

2636
02:24:32,640 --> 02:24:34,960
Speaker 1: of marginalized groups to defend themselves. Let's talk about the

2637
02:24:35,000 --> 02:24:37,320
Speaker 1: history of gun control and how it's like it is

2638
02:24:37,440 --> 02:24:39,800
Speaker 1: it is. There's a lot of conversations that kind of

2639
02:24:39,879 --> 02:24:43,280
Speaker 1: get wrapped up in that. UM. I'm wondering, do you

2640
02:24:43,360 --> 02:24:45,440
Speaker 1: have thoughts in terms of like how to kind of

2641
02:24:45,560 --> 02:24:48,720
Speaker 1: broach those and progressive avenues to go down to when

2642
02:24:48,760 --> 02:24:51,120
Speaker 1: you're having that side of the conversation. You know, it's

2643
02:24:51,160 --> 02:24:53,320
Speaker 1: totally interesting. I think I feel like I don't I'm

2644
02:24:53,360 --> 02:24:55,240
Speaker 1: curious what you think about this from your work as well.

2645
02:24:55,320 --> 02:24:58,840
Speaker 1: I feel like over the last for good reasons, over

2646
02:24:58,879 --> 02:25:01,200
Speaker 1: the last couple of years, more than a couple of years,

2647
02:25:01,600 --> 02:25:04,680
Speaker 1: I think I've seen, maybe it's just my own echo chamber,

2648
02:25:05,000 --> 02:25:07,040
Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of people on that side of

2649
02:25:07,080 --> 02:25:10,240
Speaker 1: the political spectrum coming more and more around too being

2650
02:25:10,320 --> 02:25:13,720
Speaker 1: pro gun. Yeah, and then the statistics back that up.

2651
02:25:13,800 --> 02:25:16,400
Speaker 1: Supportive and social in the United States is the lowest

2652
02:25:16,440 --> 02:25:18,440
Speaker 1: it's been in quite a while. In so that like

2653
02:25:18,560 --> 02:25:20,400
Speaker 1: if there's that joke on that side of the political

2654
02:25:20,480 --> 02:25:22,000
Speaker 1: fence about you go far enough left to get your

2655
02:25:22,040 --> 02:25:24,760
Speaker 1: guns back right, um so um. But I think there's

2656
02:25:24,800 --> 02:25:26,320
Speaker 1: been a real wake up call for a lot of

2657
02:25:26,360 --> 02:25:29,400
Speaker 1: people that used to be very much vehemently against the

2658
02:25:29,480 --> 02:25:33,759
Speaker 1: idea with some of the stuff they saw and went, whoa, Um,

2659
02:25:34,080 --> 02:25:36,720
Speaker 1: this isn't These aren't going away. And if you're reasonable,

2660
02:25:36,760 --> 02:25:39,039
Speaker 1: if you're willing to have a rational thought about, at

2661
02:25:39,120 --> 02:25:41,720
Speaker 1: least in this country, the reality of firearms ownership, whether

2662
02:25:41,760 --> 02:25:43,600
Speaker 1: you like it or not, it's not debatable. This is

2663
02:25:43,640 --> 02:25:45,720
Speaker 1: real it's what it is. They're not like they could

2664
02:25:45,760 --> 02:25:48,040
Speaker 1: ban everything tomorrow and there's gonna be air fifteens in

2665
02:25:48,080 --> 02:25:51,440
Speaker 1: this country for the next hundred years. Um, so that

2666
02:25:51,480 --> 02:25:53,880
Speaker 1: ain't going to change. So with that realization, maybe the

2667
02:25:54,160 --> 02:25:56,320
Speaker 1: maybe the better idea, which I think is with all

2668
02:25:56,400 --> 02:25:59,000
Speaker 1: technology is instead of being afraid of it, is to

2669
02:25:59,040 --> 02:26:01,560
Speaker 1: actually learn about and understand it, whether you want it

2670
02:26:01,640 --> 02:26:04,520
Speaker 1: or not. You but like learning and understanding it is

2671
02:26:04,520 --> 02:26:08,800
Speaker 1: at least a step further forward than just complete object fear. Yeah,

2672
02:26:08,920 --> 02:26:11,160
Speaker 1: that that is often kind of where I start the

2673
02:26:11,240 --> 02:26:13,760
Speaker 1: conversation with just like we have to deal with the

2674
02:26:13,879 --> 02:26:15,560
Speaker 1: reality as it is on the ground, which is that

2675
02:26:15,680 --> 02:26:19,040
Speaker 1: there's four million firearms in private hands here, which is

2676
02:26:19,120 --> 02:26:20,680
Speaker 1: not all that far from half of all of the

2677
02:26:20,760 --> 02:26:24,200
Speaker 1: guns in the world. Um, So any any sort of

2678
02:26:24,360 --> 02:26:26,360
Speaker 1: like plan you have, it's the kind of like one

2679
02:26:26,400 --> 02:26:28,680
Speaker 1: of the things that often comes up in those conversations

2680
02:26:28,800 --> 02:26:30,600
Speaker 1: is Australia and people they were like, well they were

2681
02:26:30,640 --> 02:26:33,920
Speaker 1: able to do it after now Port Arthur was Scotland. Um,

2682
02:26:34,120 --> 02:26:36,160
Speaker 1: I forget the name of the massacre, but there was

2683
02:26:36,200 --> 02:26:40,240
Speaker 1: a massacre in in in Australia that they banned most

2684
02:26:40,560 --> 02:26:44,200
Speaker 1: kinds of firearms after and confiscated them, and it gets

2685
02:26:44,240 --> 02:26:45,720
Speaker 1: brought up a lot where like, well they did this

2686
02:26:45,840 --> 02:26:47,400
Speaker 1: in the short frame of time, and there was this

2687
02:26:47,600 --> 02:26:50,480
Speaker 1: this impact on gun violence deaths. Why couldn't we do it?

2688
02:26:50,560 --> 02:26:53,120
Speaker 1: And the reason is that they had to confiscate a

2689
02:26:53,160 --> 02:26:55,320
Speaker 1: total of two hundred thousand arms and there's four hundred

2690
02:26:55,360 --> 02:26:58,520
Speaker 1: million guns in private hands in the United States. Um,

2691
02:26:59,680 --> 02:27:02,360
Speaker 1: it's it's a different scale of problem. And that that's

2692
02:27:02,400 --> 02:27:04,600
Speaker 1: before we get into sort of the legal barriers because

2693
02:27:04,760 --> 02:27:07,920
Speaker 1: Australia didn't have a Second Amendment. Obviously, like whether or

2694
02:27:07,959 --> 02:27:10,520
Speaker 1: not you like it, firearms have a level of protection

2695
02:27:10,560 --> 02:27:12,840
Speaker 1: that is equivalent to the protection free speech enjoys in

2696
02:27:12,879 --> 02:27:15,720
Speaker 1: this country. And you can't just pretend that's not the case.

2697
02:27:15,840 --> 02:27:20,200
Speaker 1: There's this tremendous body of jurisprudence around it. Yeah, no, totally,

2698
02:27:20,320 --> 02:27:21,960
Speaker 1: and like so that that's that's part of it is

2699
02:27:21,959 --> 02:27:24,720
Speaker 1: the reality there. Australian here is a completely different beast

2700
02:27:24,800 --> 02:27:27,000
Speaker 1: as well as culturally, like the people that were into

2701
02:27:27,040 --> 02:27:29,360
Speaker 1: guns there, And I don't mean to offend any Australians listening,

2702
02:27:29,440 --> 02:27:31,920
Speaker 1: but it wasn't like here, like in a place of

2703
02:27:31,959 --> 02:27:36,680
Speaker 1: Arizona at least like Arizona. Guns are just if you're

2704
02:27:36,720 --> 02:27:40,320
Speaker 1: in Arizonian they're just intrinsically part of life, whether like

2705
02:27:40,400 --> 02:27:42,480
Speaker 1: they're just constant. They're everywhere you go to like you

2706
02:27:42,560 --> 02:27:45,000
Speaker 1: see them open care you not always do she open

2707
02:27:45,040 --> 02:27:47,560
Speaker 1: care either. Sometimes it's like reasonable, open carey. Sometimes you

2708
02:27:47,600 --> 02:27:49,920
Speaker 1: see the other side of it. But they're just everywhere.

2709
02:27:49,959 --> 02:27:51,400
Speaker 1: It's just part of the deal. And it's like a

2710
02:27:51,440 --> 02:27:52,840
Speaker 1: lot of that in a lot of the country. And

2711
02:27:52,959 --> 02:27:57,080
Speaker 1: so UM I actually think that that fear based ignorance

2712
02:27:57,160 --> 02:28:00,160
Speaker 1: of them is more dangerous because then we don't teach

2713
02:28:00,200 --> 02:28:01,640
Speaker 1: people what to do around them or how to be

2714
02:28:01,720 --> 02:28:04,880
Speaker 1: safe around them, kind of like abstinence, Like education and

2715
02:28:04,920 --> 02:28:07,640
Speaker 1: school teach people not to have some well that's dumb

2716
02:28:07,840 --> 02:28:10,600
Speaker 1: that ain't gonna work, and guns exist in this country.

2717
02:28:10,680 --> 02:28:12,600
Speaker 1: Does just be afraid of them that don't work either.

2718
02:28:13,080 --> 02:28:16,959
Speaker 1: So in regard, I think that the reality is it's

2719
02:28:17,040 --> 02:28:19,960
Speaker 1: much better to UM to approach this. What I think.

2720
02:28:20,000 --> 02:28:21,400
Speaker 1: I guess the way I try to deal with that

2721
02:28:21,600 --> 02:28:25,360
Speaker 1: is if you don't fetishize them, people that are more

2722
02:28:25,440 --> 02:28:27,920
Speaker 1: afraid of them are less likely to just click away.

2723
02:28:28,480 --> 02:28:30,520
Speaker 1: If you talk about them like this is a thing,

2724
02:28:30,920 --> 02:28:33,560
Speaker 1: here's what they are, They're not a totem against evil.

2725
02:28:33,560 --> 02:28:36,880
Speaker 1: They're just a tool. And here's a historical story or

2726
02:28:37,000 --> 02:28:40,480
Speaker 1: narrative or sociological impact of this that's not fetishizing it

2727
02:28:40,560 --> 02:28:43,560
Speaker 1: as some religious item. I think that that helps break

2728
02:28:43,600 --> 02:28:46,200
Speaker 1: that barrier a little bit. And I think that that

2729
02:28:46,320 --> 02:28:48,080
Speaker 1: does bring me to something I think about a lot,

2730
02:28:48,200 --> 02:28:51,280
Speaker 1: which is the how you're in and actually has I

2731
02:28:51,320 --> 02:28:53,360
Speaker 1: think gotten a bit better than it was prior to

2732
02:28:53,480 --> 02:28:55,800
Speaker 1: Sandy Hook, but the very sorry state in a lot

2733
02:28:55,879 --> 02:29:00,160
Speaker 1: of cases of advertising of gear and guns. UM think

2734
02:29:00,200 --> 02:29:02,320
Speaker 1: the most famous example was a I believe it was

2735
02:29:02,360 --> 02:29:05,280
Speaker 1: a Bushmaster ad that got pulled after Sandy Hook that

2736
02:29:05,400 --> 02:29:07,320
Speaker 1: was like an a R fifteen that came with a

2737
02:29:07,400 --> 02:29:12,000
Speaker 1: man card that you would get like with your gun. Yeah,

2738
02:29:12,040 --> 02:29:14,160
Speaker 1: get your man card back. Your Man card has been

2739
02:29:14,200 --> 02:29:16,960
Speaker 1: reissued because you have this gun here, and that I

2740
02:29:17,560 --> 02:29:20,119
Speaker 1: I you know, I've seen a lot of different gun

2741
02:29:20,240 --> 02:29:23,160
Speaker 1: cultures because it's actually, like we've just talked about how

2742
02:29:23,240 --> 02:29:25,360
Speaker 1: unique U s gun culture is, but a lot of

2743
02:29:25,440 --> 02:29:28,160
Speaker 1: people actually own firearms around the world. There's a lot

2744
02:29:28,160 --> 02:29:30,160
Speaker 1: of even like in Europe, like France has a very

2745
02:29:30,240 --> 02:29:33,560
Speaker 1: significant gun culture. Um and in Germany, you'd be surprised

2746
02:29:33,600 --> 02:29:35,360
Speaker 1: like people can own a lot of the same weapons

2747
02:29:35,400 --> 02:29:36,800
Speaker 1: you can here, there's a lot more hoops to jump

2748
02:29:36,840 --> 02:29:40,160
Speaker 1: through to to get access to them. Um, but there's

2749
02:29:40,160 --> 02:29:43,119
Speaker 1: still like there's gun cultures all around, and especially places

2750
02:29:43,200 --> 02:29:46,480
Speaker 1: like Iraq and Syria. It was really going to um

2751
02:29:46,920 --> 02:29:48,760
Speaker 1: when I saw kind of the gun culture that I

2752
02:29:49,520 --> 02:29:51,760
Speaker 1: I most wanted to port some things over to hear

2753
02:29:51,840 --> 02:29:55,040
Speaker 1: from there. It was in northeast Syria, in Rojava, where

2754
02:29:55,560 --> 02:29:58,160
Speaker 1: like damn near every not every individual, but every like

2755
02:29:58,280 --> 02:30:00,920
Speaker 1: family had an a k because in art there was

2756
02:30:01,000 --> 02:30:03,280
Speaker 1: this understanding that you have a duty from time to

2757
02:30:03,360 --> 02:30:05,960
Speaker 1: time to like patrol and watch your neighborhood and not

2758
02:30:06,120 --> 02:30:07,760
Speaker 1: in sort of this like I'm gonna set up a

2759
02:30:07,840 --> 02:30:10,840
Speaker 1: checkpoint for Antifa, but in I like, hey, isis just

2760
02:30:10,959 --> 02:30:13,360
Speaker 1: carried out a big attack. Let's let's get some folks

2761
02:30:13,400 --> 02:30:15,760
Speaker 1: out into the streets to like watch our neighborhoods, because

2762
02:30:15,800 --> 02:30:17,600
Speaker 1: that's just the reality of the world, and we don't

2763
02:30:17,920 --> 02:30:19,840
Speaker 1: we don't do we don't just have like a group

2764
02:30:19,879 --> 02:30:23,640
Speaker 1: of militarized police rolling around every neighborhood. Like we also

2765
02:30:24,400 --> 02:30:27,440
Speaker 1: are responsible for protecting our communities and so we train

2766
02:30:27,560 --> 02:30:29,720
Speaker 1: with weapons. And there was a lot of conversations I

2767
02:30:29,800 --> 02:30:32,800
Speaker 1: had with women about like, well, the fact that I

2768
02:30:32,959 --> 02:30:34,840
Speaker 1: have this and know how to use it now means

2769
02:30:34,920 --> 02:30:37,120
Speaker 1: that things can't be done to me that were before

2770
02:30:37,520 --> 02:30:39,320
Speaker 1: because I have an a K forty seven, And that

2771
02:30:39,480 --> 02:30:43,240
Speaker 1: means something I would like to port the kind of

2772
02:30:43,760 --> 02:30:45,720
Speaker 1: like what you were talking about, not just seeing it

2773
02:30:45,840 --> 02:30:47,720
Speaker 1: as a tool, but seeing it as a tool with

2774
02:30:47,920 --> 02:30:51,880
Speaker 1: societal responsibilities. You don't just have a gun so you

2775
02:30:51,920 --> 02:30:53,840
Speaker 1: can hold up in your house in the zombie apocalypse.

2776
02:30:53,920 --> 02:30:56,600
Speaker 1: You have a gun because you're part of a community

2777
02:30:57,080 --> 02:31:00,120
Speaker 1: and because there's there's some value that we see in

2778
02:31:00,440 --> 02:31:05,120
Speaker 1: members of the community being armed and not just the state. Yeah, no, totally.

2779
02:31:05,280 --> 02:31:06,680
Speaker 1: So I mean that goes that kind of goes way

2780
02:31:06,720 --> 02:31:09,760
Speaker 1: back to the old like now sort of silly sounding thing,

2781
02:31:09,840 --> 02:31:12,320
Speaker 1: but like God made man, cult made them equal, right

2782
02:31:12,360 --> 02:31:15,280
Speaker 1: so before that, like if you were a frail human

2783
02:31:15,320 --> 02:31:19,000
Speaker 1: being for whatever reasons, Um, you really were sort of defenseless,

2784
02:31:19,080 --> 02:31:21,840
Speaker 1: especially in the places like the frontier. But skill at

2785
02:31:21,959 --> 02:31:25,880
Speaker 1: arms could change that and um, and that it puts

2786
02:31:26,000 --> 02:31:29,960
Speaker 1: it can put a more balanced power infrastructure in place. Um.

2787
02:31:30,240 --> 02:31:31,440
Speaker 1: Not that I want to live in a world, but

2788
02:31:31,520 --> 02:31:34,640
Speaker 1: we're always like at this point of mutually assured destruction.

2789
02:31:35,160 --> 02:31:37,800
Speaker 1: But it is much better to have more power balanced

2790
02:31:37,840 --> 02:31:42,920
Speaker 1: than power imbalance, and firearms absolutely provide that in trained, responsible,

2791
02:31:43,080 --> 02:31:46,120
Speaker 1: educated hands. Um. And that's what I think the story

2792
02:31:46,200 --> 02:31:48,440
Speaker 1: should be, right, that's the emphasis. Like when when the

2793
02:31:48,480 --> 02:31:50,600
Speaker 1: whole thing happened went down in Iraq like you're describing,

2794
02:31:50,640 --> 02:31:52,600
Speaker 1: I think it was ironic. One of the things that

2795
02:31:52,879 --> 02:31:54,880
Speaker 1: the US military did was allowed every home to have

2796
02:31:54,959 --> 02:31:57,119
Speaker 1: an AK, like because you get to keep one gun

2797
02:31:57,160 --> 02:31:59,160
Speaker 1: and it's one of these and uh, and you talked

2798
02:31:59,200 --> 02:32:02,600
Speaker 1: about gun unders worldwide, like, Um, once you jumped through

2799
02:32:02,680 --> 02:32:05,160
Speaker 1: some of the hurdles in some of these countries, it's

2800
02:32:05,200 --> 02:32:10,280
Speaker 1: actually easier to own certain things than you can't. Like, yeah,

2801
02:32:11,200 --> 02:32:13,039
Speaker 1: like a machine gun in the US is highly regulated.

2802
02:32:13,080 --> 02:32:16,400
Speaker 1: It's four and pretty difficult and highly expensive because of

2803
02:32:16,440 --> 02:32:19,920
Speaker 1: a specially closed market. But like Bloke on the Range,

2804
02:32:19,920 --> 02:32:22,000
Speaker 1: one of the guys I work with on on on YouTube,

2805
02:32:22,440 --> 02:32:24,080
Speaker 1: once he gets his permit, like he's like, I'm just

2806
02:32:24,080 --> 02:32:26,520
Speaker 1: gonna go buy a fully automatic stent and he just does.

2807
02:32:26,959 --> 02:32:28,760
Speaker 1: And it's not at an exorbitant price like it would

2808
02:32:28,760 --> 02:32:31,000
Speaker 1: be in the United States. So it's not apples to

2809
02:32:31,040 --> 02:32:33,240
Speaker 1: apples like these controls, whether we like them or not.

2810
02:32:33,320 --> 02:32:35,320
Speaker 1: Some of them are actually more liberal than we have

2811
02:32:35,440 --> 02:32:38,040
Speaker 1: in the United States. Yeah, I think a good example

2812
02:32:38,520 --> 02:32:40,200
Speaker 1: of that, and an example of where like a lot

2813
02:32:40,240 --> 02:32:43,320
Speaker 1: of folks who might kind of reflexively think this is insane,

2814
02:32:43,440 --> 02:32:46,840
Speaker 1: but like it's silencers, you know, suppressors being the more

2815
02:32:46,920 --> 02:32:48,920
Speaker 1: accurate term, but silencer is what you call them. It's

2816
02:32:48,920 --> 02:32:50,480
Speaker 1: the thing you see James Bond screw on the end

2817
02:32:50,480 --> 02:32:54,480
Speaker 1: of his gun to make it quiet um. And there's

2818
02:32:54,520 --> 02:32:57,240
Speaker 1: the like this attitude that they should be heavily restricted

2819
02:32:57,240 --> 02:33:00,200
Speaker 1: because there's this misnomer that for the most part they

2820
02:33:00,280 --> 02:33:02,360
Speaker 1: make things sound like stuff in James Bond. Now, there

2821
02:33:02,360 --> 02:33:05,519
Speaker 1: are some ways to get a firearm that is incredibly

2822
02:33:05,600 --> 02:33:08,600
Speaker 1: quiet um, particularly using like a smaller around and sub

2823
02:33:08,680 --> 02:33:11,760
Speaker 1: sonic ammunition. There are some very some weapons you can

2824
02:33:11,879 --> 02:33:14,480
Speaker 1: effectively make quiet enough that people won't notice it. But

2825
02:33:14,520 --> 02:33:16,800
Speaker 1: when you're putting a silencer on an a R fifteen,

2826
02:33:16,879 --> 02:33:19,320
Speaker 1: it is not quiet. No one will miss it firing.

2827
02:33:20,000 --> 02:33:21,920
Speaker 1: But what it won't do if you have to defend

2828
02:33:21,959 --> 02:33:24,640
Speaker 1: yourself in your home is shatter your ear drums forever,

2829
02:33:24,879 --> 02:33:28,279
Speaker 1: right or this is honestly the bigger case for suppressors.

2830
02:33:28,560 --> 02:33:30,840
Speaker 1: If you are hunting with an animal, as a lot

2831
02:33:30,879 --> 02:33:33,000
Speaker 1: of people do with your dogs. You can have a

2832
02:33:33,040 --> 02:33:35,560
Speaker 1: suppressor on your shotgun as your bird hunting or whatever,

2833
02:33:35,640 --> 02:33:38,920
Speaker 1: and you will not destroy that dog's ears. Um. You know,

2834
02:33:39,000 --> 02:33:40,880
Speaker 1: it's the same thing like I'm hunting for deer. You know,

2835
02:33:40,959 --> 02:33:44,640
Speaker 1: it's it's it's easier. Um, it's like less dangerous for

2836
02:33:44,720 --> 02:33:47,640
Speaker 1: you potentially. Like I one thing you notice, if you've

2837
02:33:47,640 --> 02:33:49,840
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time around hunting dogs, they don't

2838
02:33:50,000 --> 02:33:52,440
Speaker 1: have good hearing by the time they get older because

2839
02:33:52,440 --> 02:33:56,720
Speaker 1: they're hunting. You know. It's funny suppressors, Like everything that's

2840
02:33:56,760 --> 02:34:00,520
Speaker 1: that's more controlled has gotta allure of magic around, right, Like, oh,

2841
02:34:00,640 --> 02:34:03,200
Speaker 1: a suppressor of silencer or or for that matter, of

2842
02:34:03,320 --> 02:34:05,640
Speaker 1: machine gun, and like therefore it is the forbidden fruit

2843
02:34:05,879 --> 02:34:07,640
Speaker 1: and everyone wants it more than they ever would have

2844
02:34:08,000 --> 02:34:10,720
Speaker 1: once you own. I have one transferable machine guns with

2845
02:34:10,840 --> 02:34:13,040
Speaker 1: tax stamped the whole nine yards, and I shoot it

2846
02:34:13,120 --> 02:34:14,760
Speaker 1: like once a year because you shoot it and then

2847
02:34:14,760 --> 02:34:18,840
Speaker 1: you're like, wow, that was expensive, and and it's like, oh,

2848
02:34:19,000 --> 02:34:20,800
Speaker 1: we that was fun, and then you put it away.

2849
02:34:20,879 --> 02:34:22,879
Speaker 1: And the truth is the some automatic stuff is far

2850
02:34:23,000 --> 02:34:26,480
Speaker 1: more interesting and actually generally more effective once you use

2851
02:34:26,560 --> 02:34:29,360
Speaker 1: full auto fire, it's got very limited use. Um. Fully

2852
02:34:29,480 --> 02:34:31,680
Speaker 1: there there, I mean there is like if we again

2853
02:34:31,720 --> 02:34:34,160
Speaker 1: are being complete, there's one mass shooting I can think

2854
02:34:34,240 --> 02:34:37,720
Speaker 1: of where a fully automatic weapon made the shooter more

2855
02:34:37,840 --> 02:34:40,520
Speaker 1: dangerous and it was the Las Vegas shooting because he

2856
02:34:40,680 --> 02:34:44,240
Speaker 1: was in a set fixed position. Um. He was holed

2857
02:34:44,360 --> 02:34:47,000
Speaker 1: up um and he had he was not like moving

2858
02:34:47,080 --> 02:34:49,720
Speaker 1: and standing, he was like braced while firing into a

2859
02:34:49,800 --> 02:34:52,520
Speaker 1: crowd from a building. As a general rule, if you're

2860
02:34:52,520 --> 02:34:55,560
Speaker 1: talking about like what's someone going to be more dangerous with,

2861
02:34:55,720 --> 02:34:58,480
Speaker 1: if they're somebody who decides to shoot up something, it's

2862
02:34:58,520 --> 02:35:01,720
Speaker 1: a semi automatic weapon. Because atomatic weapon number one going

2863
02:35:01,800 --> 02:35:04,840
Speaker 1: to jam more often requires a bit more understanding and

2864
02:35:04,959 --> 02:35:07,039
Speaker 1: know how on behalf of the user. And also it's

2865
02:35:07,040 --> 02:35:08,800
Speaker 1: a lot harder to hit with and we'll run out

2866
02:35:08,840 --> 02:35:11,120
Speaker 1: of ammunition very quickly as opposed to it and a

2867
02:35:11,200 --> 02:35:13,480
Speaker 1: semi automatic a R fifteen. The reason they are so

2868
02:35:13,600 --> 02:35:15,960
Speaker 1: often used in mass shootings is it's kind of the

2869
02:35:16,040 --> 02:35:18,800
Speaker 1: best weapon to use for that. If that's it's also prolific, Right,

2870
02:35:18,840 --> 02:35:23,120
Speaker 1: there's like cordwood in this country. You can like they're

2871
02:35:23,160 --> 02:35:26,120
Speaker 1: literally everywhere. Um. The Las Vega shooter, though, I don't

2872
02:35:26,160 --> 02:35:28,119
Speaker 1: know that he had actually any truly select fire guns.

2873
02:35:28,160 --> 02:35:30,560
Speaker 1: Weren't they it was, Yeah, he was using a bump stock.

2874
02:35:30,640 --> 02:35:32,960
Speaker 1: I think it's close enough to Yeah, well no, it's

2875
02:35:32,959 --> 02:35:35,000
Speaker 1: a good analog. But it is interesting to note and

2876
02:35:35,080 --> 02:35:37,680
Speaker 1: that guy. What's interesting about that guy's um? Well, of

2877
02:35:37,720 --> 02:35:41,240
Speaker 1: course his act was horrific and evil. Obviously, he used

2878
02:35:41,280 --> 02:35:44,120
Speaker 1: a bunch of air fifteens with like shitty bump stocks,

2879
02:35:44,480 --> 02:35:47,400
Speaker 1: and he had planned something like this for years apparently. Yeah,

2880
02:35:47,560 --> 02:35:49,800
Speaker 1: he had Tanner right in the set up too, which

2881
02:35:49,879 --> 02:35:52,360
Speaker 1: is yeah, no one knows, I mean as we know,

2882
02:35:52,560 --> 02:35:54,440
Speaker 1: no one currently, I don't know anyone knows what his

2883
02:35:54,520 --> 02:35:57,400
Speaker 1: motivation was, at least it hasn't been released. But he

2884
02:35:57,480 --> 02:35:59,640
Speaker 1: had been planning something like this for a very long time.

2885
02:36:00,280 --> 02:36:02,200
Speaker 1: And what's ironic about that is that if he had

2886
02:36:02,240 --> 02:36:04,080
Speaker 1: bided his time, he could have actually had a real

2887
02:36:04,640 --> 02:36:08,040
Speaker 1: select fire like belt fed machine gun. He just did

2888
02:36:08,080 --> 02:36:11,360
Speaker 1: a millionaire. Yeah he could have done that, and uh, um,

2889
02:36:11,720 --> 02:36:14,040
Speaker 1: this could but he just went with this bump stock

2890
02:36:14,760 --> 02:36:17,960
Speaker 1: kind of garbage, which is weird. Um, that's a whole

2891
02:36:17,959 --> 02:36:20,840
Speaker 1: another topic, but it is, and it it is like

2892
02:36:20,920 --> 02:36:22,560
Speaker 1: that is one of those cases when you talk to

2893
02:36:22,600 --> 02:36:25,720
Speaker 1: people in the right where it's like, after that shooting, Um,

2894
02:36:26,680 --> 02:36:30,760
Speaker 1: Donald Trump and his administration banned bump stocks. UM, which

2895
02:36:30,840 --> 02:36:32,520
Speaker 1: is more gun control than we got out of eight

2896
02:36:32,600 --> 02:36:35,680
Speaker 1: years of Obama. You know, oh boy, you point that

2897
02:36:35,720 --> 02:36:39,640
Speaker 1: out at least on the center. In fact, um. Uh,

2898
02:36:39,920 --> 02:36:42,680
Speaker 1: there's always this narrative that you know, this political party

2899
02:36:42,720 --> 02:36:45,200
Speaker 1: will take your guns, and this polargically party waved. But

2900
02:36:45,320 --> 02:36:48,640
Speaker 1: the truth is, statistically and historically speaking, both tend to

2901
02:36:48,720 --> 02:36:51,040
Speaker 1: air on the side of trying to add more restrictions

2902
02:36:51,120 --> 02:36:53,280
Speaker 1: over time, like if you do it over time like

2903
02:36:53,520 --> 02:36:55,800
Speaker 1: Obama didn't. In fact, Obama open things up. I think

2904
02:36:55,840 --> 02:37:00,800
Speaker 1: he liberalized concealed carry of pistol or firearms in national parks.

2905
02:37:01,240 --> 02:37:03,800
Speaker 1: Actually he actually made guns a little easier to deal with. UM.

2906
02:37:04,200 --> 02:37:09,080
Speaker 1: But then, via essentially executive order edict, you've got Trump

2907
02:37:09,120 --> 02:37:11,840
Speaker 1: banning bump stocks, which, whether you like bump stocks or not,

2908
02:37:12,000 --> 02:37:14,520
Speaker 1: I think the way that went down is questionable legally speaking,

2909
02:37:14,560 --> 02:37:17,560
Speaker 1: but that's another topic it and and obviously the bump

2910
02:37:17,640 --> 02:37:21,760
Speaker 1: stocks were also somewhat questionable. They were speaking right right

2911
02:37:21,840 --> 02:37:25,040
Speaker 1: totally totally, but but that's that's an interesting precedent with

2912
02:37:25,160 --> 02:37:28,000
Speaker 1: what he did with just like Fiat edict um. But

2913
02:37:28,440 --> 02:37:31,560
Speaker 1: that that said, like historically, over time, there's always been

2914
02:37:32,200 --> 02:37:35,280
Speaker 1: more restrictions, not less, from both sides. And when you

2915
02:37:35,360 --> 02:37:37,360
Speaker 1: point that out, the people that just kind of drink

2916
02:37:37,400 --> 02:37:39,080
Speaker 1: the kool aid from one side or the other, I

2917
02:37:39,160 --> 02:37:42,120
Speaker 1: want to just immediately knee jerk on you. And you're like, no,

2918
02:37:42,320 --> 02:37:45,360
Speaker 1: this is weird. This is coming from all directions. Really, yeah,

2919
02:37:45,400 --> 02:37:47,200
Speaker 1: and I think it is. It is a big part

2920
02:37:47,240 --> 02:37:49,520
Speaker 1: of it is just that, like as a general rule,

2921
02:37:49,680 --> 02:37:52,320
Speaker 1: people who are rich and powerful do not want poor

2922
02:37:52,400 --> 02:37:55,560
Speaker 1: people to be armed. It doesn't tend to work out

2923
02:37:55,600 --> 02:37:57,800
Speaker 1: in their favor. The only time they want poor people

2924
02:37:57,920 --> 02:37:59,360
Speaker 1: armed is when they send them to a war they

2925
02:37:59,440 --> 02:38:03,879
Speaker 1: decided to. Uh yeah, Obviously the history of gun controls

2926
02:38:03,920 --> 02:38:07,560
Speaker 1: would have lay tied to racism and the Black Panthers

2927
02:38:07,840 --> 02:38:10,760
Speaker 1: and a whole stuff around California's gun laws being started

2928
02:38:10,800 --> 02:38:14,080
Speaker 1: to curb black people from promoting play out arms, and

2929
02:38:14,240 --> 02:38:16,320
Speaker 1: so it would be we would be You could argue

2930
02:38:16,320 --> 02:38:18,880
Speaker 1: in some ways that Reagan had a big role in

2931
02:38:18,959 --> 02:38:22,039
Speaker 1: inventing our modern concepts of like what gun control means

2932
02:38:22,120 --> 02:38:24,480
Speaker 1: and what kind of gun control laws like liberal states

2933
02:38:24,560 --> 02:38:27,440
Speaker 1: tend to go after on open carrying bands, on you know,

2934
02:38:27,560 --> 02:38:30,280
Speaker 1: concealed carrying of arms, that kind of stuff. Yeah, it's

2935
02:38:30,280 --> 02:38:33,520
Speaker 1: deeper than this, and there's always nuanced It's really hard, right,

2936
02:38:33,560 --> 02:38:36,480
Speaker 1: But like, um, like California, which is kind of one

2937
02:38:36,520 --> 02:38:39,400
Speaker 1: of the flagship states of gun control. UM, and I

2938
02:38:39,560 --> 02:38:42,600
Speaker 1: think that their methods are bizarre to me and almost

2939
02:38:43,120 --> 02:38:47,440
Speaker 1: on not understandable. But like you talk about Reagan, pretty

2940
02:38:47,520 --> 02:38:49,240
Speaker 1: much they were like, guns are cool, and then the

2941
02:38:49,280 --> 02:38:52,440
Speaker 1: panthers walked around with some guns. Are like, whoa fucking sorry,

2942
02:38:52,879 --> 02:38:55,680
Speaker 1: we better do something. And uh. Of course that the

2943
02:38:55,959 --> 02:38:58,520
Speaker 1: image of the panthers with their guns out walking down

2944
02:38:58,560 --> 02:39:02,520
Speaker 1: the street, which was their legal right, um, and it

2945
02:39:02,720 --> 02:39:06,840
Speaker 1: was brad and it motivated um of course a lot

2946
02:39:06,879 --> 02:39:09,000
Speaker 1: of things in California, which now we see where where

2947
02:39:09,040 --> 02:39:12,280
Speaker 1: that has led in California gun control laws. UM has

2948
02:39:12,320 --> 02:39:14,320
Speaker 1: also changed the narrative for so many people that are

2949
02:39:14,360 --> 02:39:18,240
Speaker 1: unwilling to look at things from a truly broad historical perspective.

2950
02:39:18,640 --> 02:39:21,280
Speaker 1: That's only one tiny thing the Black Panthers did, and

2951
02:39:21,760 --> 02:39:24,000
Speaker 1: the rest of their actions are so lost to just

2952
02:39:24,120 --> 02:39:26,480
Speaker 1: the pictures of them standing around them on carbings. And

2953
02:39:26,560 --> 02:39:29,959
Speaker 1: that's another example of leaving out like the Sinaical mission,

2954
02:39:30,280 --> 02:39:32,080
Speaker 1: we'll talk about one thing but not the rest, and

2955
02:39:32,120 --> 02:39:35,160
Speaker 1: therefore the historical narrative is only one thing. And it

2956
02:39:35,360 --> 02:39:37,400
Speaker 1: is also there's a lesson in that for people who

2957
02:39:37,480 --> 02:39:39,480
Speaker 1: are on the left and who are advocates of gun

2958
02:39:39,560 --> 02:39:43,680
Speaker 1: ownership about what happens in terms of media and in

2959
02:39:43,840 --> 02:39:46,760
Speaker 1: terms of how your movement is thought about and remembered

2960
02:39:47,040 --> 02:39:49,440
Speaker 1: when guns are a part of it, Because that's always

2961
02:39:49,520 --> 02:39:51,840
Speaker 1: going to for a variety of reasons, and we can

2962
02:39:51,879 --> 02:39:54,480
Speaker 1: say a lot of those are very unreasonable reasons. But

2963
02:39:54,879 --> 02:39:58,280
Speaker 1: if you are a political group who is armed and

2964
02:39:58,560 --> 02:40:01,520
Speaker 1: makes that a visible part of your activism, that is

2965
02:40:01,600 --> 02:40:04,080
Speaker 1: going to really dominate a lot of conversations. It doesn't

2966
02:40:04,080 --> 02:40:05,720
Speaker 1: mean you shouldn't be, but it means you have to

2967
02:40:05,800 --> 02:40:08,120
Speaker 1: go into that understanding that like, that's just how it

2968
02:40:08,200 --> 02:40:11,040
Speaker 1: works in this country. Yeah, you will immediately get you

2969
02:40:11,320 --> 02:40:13,880
Speaker 1: will immediately from at least some part of the perspective,

2970
02:40:14,000 --> 02:40:16,880
Speaker 1: whatever whatever side you're on, you will immediately get someone

2971
02:40:17,000 --> 02:40:21,000
Speaker 1: slinging extremist militant at you. Yeah. But by the way,

2972
02:40:21,080 --> 02:40:22,560
Speaker 1: I mean, those are real things too. There are those.

2973
02:40:22,600 --> 02:40:25,240
Speaker 1: I'm not saying there aren't extremists. We'll talk about them

2974
02:40:25,280 --> 02:40:27,200
Speaker 1: all the time. Yeah, this country is full of them,

2975
02:40:27,200 --> 02:40:28,760
Speaker 1: as is the world. So that's not that's not an

2976
02:40:28,840 --> 02:40:32,200
Speaker 1: unreasonable thing that does exist. But the minute you go

2977
02:40:32,320 --> 02:40:34,320
Speaker 1: ahead and stand with that gun, you're going to get

2978
02:40:34,360 --> 02:40:36,760
Speaker 1: that label, whether it's truly something you earned or not.

2979
02:40:37,480 --> 02:40:40,600
Speaker 1: There's a very deep conversation that we've talked about, we've

2980
02:40:40,640 --> 02:40:44,160
Speaker 1: had in in pieces on this program and other shows

2981
02:40:44,200 --> 02:40:49,240
Speaker 1: that we've done on Cool Zone about like WIN makes

2982
02:40:49,320 --> 02:40:53,360
Speaker 1: sense to be openly armed and WIN makes sense to

2983
02:40:53,440 --> 02:40:55,440
Speaker 1: be openly armed as part of a group, because that

2984
02:40:55,680 --> 02:40:59,560
Speaker 1: is a very fraught question as like the what happened

2985
02:40:59,600 --> 02:41:03,400
Speaker 1: in the chat has made abundantly clear, but in you know,

2986
02:41:03,440 --> 02:41:06,040
Speaker 1: a bunch of cases Kyle Rittenhouse and whatnot, there's a

2987
02:41:06,080 --> 02:41:10,440
Speaker 1: ton of different reasons why choosing to be openly armed. Um,

2988
02:41:10,879 --> 02:41:12,480
Speaker 1: there's a debate to be had about like how that

2989
02:41:12,560 --> 02:41:16,080
Speaker 1: influences everyone around you had that influences influences the demonstration,

2990
02:41:16,120 --> 02:41:18,680
Speaker 1: And I've seen and heard it used in in good

2991
02:41:18,720 --> 02:41:21,560
Speaker 1: ways in an irresponsible ways. I've seen people carrying guns

2992
02:41:21,640 --> 02:41:24,200
Speaker 1: at political events in order to intimidate others. I've also

2993
02:41:24,280 --> 02:41:27,879
Speaker 1: seen people carrying guns at political events to create essentially

2994
02:41:27,920 --> 02:41:29,720
Speaker 1: a buffer where it's like, Okay, there's going to be

2995
02:41:29,840 --> 02:41:31,960
Speaker 1: people fighting at this event. There's going to be clashes.

2996
02:41:32,320 --> 02:41:34,320
Speaker 1: If we're standing here as a group with guns. There's

2997
02:41:34,320 --> 02:41:36,400
Speaker 1: a place people can run back to and the fighting

2998
02:41:36,400 --> 02:41:39,120
Speaker 1: won't continue because nobody wants to push that. And that's yeah,

2999
02:41:39,160 --> 02:41:41,720
Speaker 1: without talking about specifics of intent to any of those

3000
02:41:41,760 --> 02:41:44,840
Speaker 1: situations you already talked about, because I can't, but yeah,

3001
02:41:44,840 --> 02:41:46,880
Speaker 1: I think I think it does, Like it always comes

3002
02:41:46,920 --> 02:41:49,960
Speaker 1: back to this thing of intent. Right. So to me, um,

3003
02:41:50,200 --> 02:41:53,080
Speaker 1: you're right for the firearm, absolutely true, regardless, like even

3004
02:41:53,120 --> 02:41:54,640
Speaker 1: if I disagree with you, this is a right, like

3005
02:41:54,680 --> 02:41:57,520
Speaker 1: we said, it's protected like the First Amendment, it's the second. Um.

3006
02:41:57,800 --> 02:42:01,360
Speaker 1: But I think the problem starts to come when you've

3007
02:42:01,400 --> 02:42:06,119
Speaker 1: decided to bring the firearm solely for the intended purpose

3008
02:42:06,200 --> 02:42:09,320
Speaker 1: of intimidation. Like that's that's where I start getting like,

3009
02:42:09,680 --> 02:42:12,400
Speaker 1: this is this is troubling, right, But if you're bringing

3010
02:42:12,440 --> 02:42:15,360
Speaker 1: it for personal defense or community defense, or there's a

3011
02:42:15,480 --> 02:42:18,840
Speaker 1: need because your community is really at risk. I mean

3012
02:42:18,920 --> 02:42:20,880
Speaker 1: one of the examples of a civil rights one was

3013
02:42:21,360 --> 02:42:22,920
Speaker 1: this is on someday, I'll do a video about this.

3014
02:42:23,480 --> 02:42:26,200
Speaker 1: A community knew that the clan was coming to intimidate them,

3015
02:42:26,520 --> 02:42:28,840
Speaker 1: and they armed up with surplus m one garren's and

3016
02:42:29,400 --> 02:42:33,560
Speaker 1: steel pot helmets literally dune fighting positions and fought them off.

3017
02:42:33,640 --> 02:42:35,600
Speaker 1: The clan ran for their lives. No one was killed,

3018
02:42:35,920 --> 02:42:39,040
Speaker 1: but they literally used m one grands to uh to

3019
02:42:39,360 --> 02:42:42,520
Speaker 1: stop the clan from infiltrating their community. Um. That was

3020
02:42:42,600 --> 02:42:44,760
Speaker 1: not used as a weapon of intimidation. It was used

3021
02:42:44,760 --> 02:42:47,560
Speaker 1: as a weapon of community defense. I think that's intent

3022
02:42:47,720 --> 02:42:54,039
Speaker 1: goes everywhere. Yeah, that's dope too. Um and yeah, I uh,

3023
02:42:55,120 --> 02:43:01,280
Speaker 1: I think um one thing that that that kind of

3024
02:43:04,000 --> 02:43:06,000
Speaker 1: I think there's a conversation that needs to be had

3025
02:43:06,080 --> 02:43:08,560
Speaker 1: when we start talking about when is reasonable and what

3026
02:43:08,680 --> 02:43:11,840
Speaker 1: situations are reasonable to carry a gun opener concealed about

3027
02:43:11,920 --> 02:43:16,920
Speaker 1: also what should be carried. Um, I've certainly seen because

3028
02:43:16,920 --> 02:43:19,360
Speaker 1: I don't I think that the most harmful thing is

3029
02:43:19,400 --> 02:43:22,039
Speaker 1: certainly people carrying gun to intimidate. I've also seen people

3030
02:43:22,080 --> 02:43:25,040
Speaker 1: carry guns as a fashion statement, which is not the

3031
02:43:25,160 --> 02:43:27,680
Speaker 1: same thing but as bad. For example, people on the

3032
02:43:27,760 --> 02:43:31,200
Speaker 1: left people at a protests bringing a loaded mosen um

3033
02:43:31,400 --> 02:43:33,840
Speaker 1: too because it was the gun the communists use, which

3034
02:43:33,879 --> 02:43:35,640
Speaker 1: is like, you don't you don't want to be in

3035
02:43:35,720 --> 02:43:39,400
Speaker 1: a firefight in a dense urban environment with a motion

3036
02:43:39,480 --> 02:43:47,040
Speaker 1: negat did you bring? It is a gun that doesn't

3037
02:43:47,120 --> 02:43:53,480
Speaker 1: function without a sizeable hammer, you know. And of course

3038
02:43:53,560 --> 02:43:56,840
Speaker 1: people on like I remember outside of this anti mask rally,

3039
02:43:56,959 --> 02:43:58,720
Speaker 1: these two guys who are up and carrying a r is,

3040
02:43:58,760 --> 02:44:00,360
Speaker 1: one of whom had an a r tin with with

3041
02:44:00,440 --> 02:44:02,560
Speaker 1: a hundred round drum was talking about it. We had

3042
02:44:02,600 --> 02:44:04,480
Speaker 1: like four hundreds something rounds on him and it was

3043
02:44:04,560 --> 02:44:06,760
Speaker 1: like and in case stuff pops off, and it's like,

3044
02:44:06,959 --> 02:44:11,520
Speaker 1: what are you number one? Like, if you're talking like that,

3045
02:44:11,640 --> 02:44:14,120
Speaker 1: you've spent no time thinking about what actually happens in

3046
02:44:14,200 --> 02:44:18,160
Speaker 1: the situations in public areas in which gunfights occur, because

3047
02:44:18,280 --> 02:44:19,960
Speaker 1: none of them that have happened in any time in

3048
02:44:20,000 --> 02:44:22,800
Speaker 1: the recent future have involved people needing to four hundred

3049
02:44:22,879 --> 02:44:26,200
Speaker 1: rounds of ammunition or or drum magazines or whatever. Like

3050
02:44:26,320 --> 02:44:30,280
Speaker 1: you are. You are not in Fallujah. You are in Salem, Oregon. Um.

3051
02:44:30,480 --> 02:44:32,640
Speaker 1: The extent to which a firearm can be useful for

3052
02:44:33,600 --> 02:44:37,080
Speaker 1: UH self defense and that does not like bragging about

3053
02:44:37,080 --> 02:44:39,520
Speaker 1: the number of bullets you have is just like weird

3054
02:44:39,600 --> 02:44:41,600
Speaker 1: and gross. You know, this is gonna come off maybe

3055
02:44:41,600 --> 02:44:43,880
Speaker 1: a little strange or even counterintuitive, But when I hear

3056
02:44:43,959 --> 02:44:45,520
Speaker 1: someone like that, at what you just described in that

3057
02:44:45,600 --> 02:44:48,360
Speaker 1: particular person. First of all, that guns barrel would burst

3058
02:44:48,400 --> 02:44:49,800
Speaker 1: in four d of rounds, But that's a whole other

3059
02:44:49,879 --> 02:44:53,320
Speaker 1: topic probably, But that said, UM, when I hear that,

3060
02:44:53,400 --> 02:44:56,960
Speaker 1: I almost have like, Um, it's kind of sad because

3061
02:44:57,000 --> 02:44:58,840
Speaker 1: the reason that's sad is that person is doing that

3062
02:44:58,959 --> 02:45:01,560
Speaker 1: one because they've been so the idea of the firearms

3063
02:45:01,560 --> 02:45:03,880
Speaker 1: and talisman like that. To me, that person is acting

3064
02:45:03,920 --> 02:45:07,240
Speaker 1: like that's a talisman. Secondarily, the reason they have four

3065
02:45:07,280 --> 02:45:09,879
Speaker 1: in a round is because they've been sold a pretty

3066
02:45:09,959 --> 02:45:13,360
Speaker 1: big bill of fear. And that's that's sad for anyone

3067
02:45:13,440 --> 02:45:16,960
Speaker 1: to live a life based on fear. Yeah, yeah, I

3068
02:45:17,000 --> 02:45:20,240
Speaker 1: would agree with that entirely. Um, do you have anything

3069
02:45:20,280 --> 02:45:23,720
Speaker 1: else you wanted to get into and this, uh, this conversation, well,

3070
02:45:23,760 --> 02:45:25,119
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, we're just here to talk

3071
02:45:25,120 --> 02:45:27,960
Speaker 1: about like community. I just I think one thing that's

3072
02:45:28,000 --> 02:45:32,240
Speaker 1: really important and it's something that um is a positive

3073
02:45:32,320 --> 02:45:33,880
Speaker 1: and I'm happy to see this is that it was

3074
02:45:33,959 --> 02:45:35,800
Speaker 1: kind of a happy accident with my work. I didn't

3075
02:45:35,800 --> 02:45:37,640
Speaker 1: even think about it. It is hard to happen, but

3076
02:45:37,800 --> 02:45:41,119
Speaker 1: this is a much the people people that love first

3077
02:45:41,160 --> 02:45:43,400
Speaker 1: of all, just the sport. There's a lot of us.

3078
02:45:43,480 --> 02:45:46,680
Speaker 1: There's a lot of us of all spectrums across the board, UM,

3079
02:45:47,040 --> 02:45:49,200
Speaker 1: people that believe in the right from the person be

3080
02:45:49,360 --> 02:45:53,280
Speaker 1: purposes of personal defense and community defense there across the board.

3081
02:45:53,760 --> 02:45:55,360
Speaker 1: And I think that one of the things that we

3082
02:45:55,440 --> 02:45:58,400
Speaker 1: need to do is not let the narrative be only one,

3083
02:45:58,959 --> 02:46:03,320
Speaker 1: which is we see so much of UM very much

3084
02:46:03,480 --> 02:46:06,360
Speaker 1: just like right wing. I'm gonna usually say Christian white

3085
02:46:06,440 --> 02:46:10,520
Speaker 1: males need like completely dominating this conversation as though, and

3086
02:46:10,640 --> 02:46:13,199
Speaker 1: they think they owe as a result own the space.

3087
02:46:14,040 --> 02:46:16,040
Speaker 1: Now it would be in their interest too, from the

3088
02:46:16,080 --> 02:46:19,640
Speaker 1: perspective of preserving firearms rights, to be inclusive and have

3089
02:46:19,760 --> 02:46:22,920
Speaker 1: everyone that believes in that a particular thing work together

3090
02:46:23,000 --> 02:46:24,480
Speaker 1: to make sure we don't lose a right, because the

3091
02:46:24,600 --> 02:46:28,240
Speaker 1: right unexercised is lost. Right. So even if I disagree

3092
02:46:28,280 --> 02:46:30,880
Speaker 1: with you on economic policy, but we agree on firearms right,

3093
02:46:31,560 --> 02:46:33,640
Speaker 1: we have an agreement there and that makes us somehow

3094
02:46:33,760 --> 02:46:36,320
Speaker 1: interestingly in the same space. We have something in common

3095
02:46:36,760 --> 02:46:39,280
Speaker 1: versus something diversive. And I think that part of the

3096
02:46:39,320 --> 02:46:41,480
Speaker 1: conversation at least within reason. I mean, there are people

3097
02:46:41,480 --> 02:46:44,120
Speaker 1: that are legitimately dangerous, you don't negotiate with them, but

3098
02:46:44,240 --> 02:46:47,520
Speaker 1: within reason, like agreeing on that topic means well, we've

3099
02:46:47,520 --> 02:46:49,600
Speaker 1: got something in common here. There's probably other things too,

3100
02:46:50,200 --> 02:46:51,800
Speaker 1: and maybe that could be a place where we kind

3101
02:46:51,840 --> 02:46:54,800
Speaker 1: of try to make that conversation better not worse. And

3102
02:46:54,920 --> 02:46:58,480
Speaker 1: so by being more open inclusive and saying, hey, there's

3103
02:46:58,480 --> 02:47:00,280
Speaker 1: people here and people there and here we are all

3104
02:47:00,320 --> 02:47:04,320
Speaker 1: together doing this together. Um, perhaps conversation can be had

3105
02:47:04,360 --> 02:47:06,240
Speaker 1: that's better than what we've been having. Maybe it can

3106
02:47:06,280 --> 02:47:11,720
Speaker 1: be actually a community builder versus a community destroyer. Yeah, yeah,

3107
02:47:11,720 --> 02:47:14,720
Speaker 1: I would like to see that. Um well, I think

3108
02:47:14,760 --> 02:47:16,640
Speaker 1: that's as good a note as any to uh to

3109
02:47:16,760 --> 02:47:19,120
Speaker 1: close out on Carl. You wanna you wanna throw your

3110
02:47:19,160 --> 02:47:22,240
Speaker 1: plug ables up before we were right out of here? Yeah? Sure,

3111
02:47:22,320 --> 02:47:24,080
Speaker 1: I mean so I run in range TV. You can

3112
02:47:24,120 --> 02:47:28,359
Speaker 1: find me an in range dot tv. Um completely viewer supported.

3113
02:47:28,400 --> 02:47:29,920
Speaker 1: Like I said, I don't want to sponsors or anything.

3114
02:47:29,920 --> 02:47:31,920
Speaker 1: I like. I like the idea of the people liking

3115
02:47:32,040 --> 02:47:34,400
Speaker 1: watching it support it. So if you like it cool,

3116
02:47:34,480 --> 02:47:37,520
Speaker 1: come check it out all over the place. YouTube bit

3117
02:47:37,560 --> 02:47:41,000
Speaker 1: shoot decentralized video contrat distributions. Another thing I believe in

3118
02:47:41,040 --> 02:47:44,640
Speaker 1: strong would the corporate oligarchy. But yeah, come out if

3119
02:47:44,680 --> 02:47:46,480
Speaker 1: you want to have a little bit different take on

3120
02:47:46,560 --> 02:47:48,440
Speaker 1: fire and stuff, or you're just in the confluence of

3121
02:47:48,920 --> 02:47:51,040
Speaker 1: civil rights and guns and stuff. Come check out in

3122
02:47:51,200 --> 02:47:54,120
Speaker 1: Range TV. I'd appreciate I always appreciate new viewers, and

3123
02:47:54,400 --> 02:47:59,000
Speaker 1: thanks for checking it out. Awesome. All right, um yeah,

3124
02:47:59,320 --> 02:48:03,840
Speaker 1: check out in Range TV, and uh check us out somewhere.

3125
02:48:04,400 --> 02:48:06,880
Speaker 1: We won't tell you where, but you can find us

3126
02:48:06,879 --> 02:48:21,800
Speaker 1: if you keep us in your hearts. C I Burnett

3127
02:48:21,840 --> 02:48:25,640
Speaker 1: ex all right, this is this is me Christopher Wong,

3128
02:48:25,959 --> 02:48:29,240
Speaker 1: realizing that I have done like sixteen consecutive actual real

3129
02:48:29,320 --> 02:48:31,720
Speaker 1: introductions and that if I keep doing them, everyone's gonna

3130
02:48:31,720 --> 02:48:33,879
Speaker 1: expect that I do a real introduction every time instead

3131
02:48:33,920 --> 02:48:38,280
Speaker 1: of like randomly yelling something. So yeah, we'll welcome to

3132
02:48:38,320 --> 02:48:40,160
Speaker 1: it could happen here. I am trying to make my

3133
02:48:40,320 --> 02:48:46,280
Speaker 1: job function as it should and not professionalize it. Um.

3134
02:48:46,879 --> 02:48:49,760
Speaker 1: And this is This is a podcast about things that

3135
02:48:49,879 --> 02:48:53,440
Speaker 1: are bad, but it's also occasionally a podcast about things

3136
02:48:53,520 --> 02:48:56,400
Speaker 1: that are good and how, in fact, there can be

3137
02:48:56,520 --> 02:49:00,320
Speaker 1: a society beyond this one and talk about some of

3138
02:49:00,400 --> 02:49:02,240
Speaker 1: the shades of what that could look like. I have

3139
02:49:02,400 --> 02:49:05,200
Speaker 1: with me the co host of the General Intellect Unit

3140
02:49:05,280 --> 02:49:08,520
Speaker 1: Kyle and June, which is a podcast on the emancipation network.

3141
02:49:08,640 --> 02:49:11,359
Speaker 1: That is I told this is the tagline the podcast

3142
02:49:11,400 --> 02:49:15,960
Speaker 1: of the Cybernetic Marxists. I am. I am very excited. Yeah,

3143
02:49:16,120 --> 02:49:19,320
Speaker 1: so it's really exciting to be here. Absolutely, thank you

3144
02:49:19,400 --> 02:49:23,320
Speaker 1: for coming on. Um yeah, I guess okay, we should

3145
02:49:23,320 --> 02:49:28,920
Speaker 1: start at the the very very beginning, because I don't

3146
02:49:28,920 --> 02:49:35,400
Speaker 1: think most people know any of this. What is cybernetics, right? Um?

3147
02:49:35,640 --> 02:49:40,280
Speaker 1: So cybernetics is I guess a term that comes from

3148
02:49:41,400 --> 02:49:46,640
Speaker 1: what is it the kaibernetes, right steering, Uh, the idea

3149
02:49:46,680 --> 02:49:50,840
Speaker 1: of steering a boat, um so, using your ore to

3150
02:49:51,440 --> 02:49:57,760
Speaker 1: navigate the waters. Um and so essentially it is a

3151
02:49:58,720 --> 02:50:03,960
Speaker 1: science of con troll and that sounds really scary, but

3152
02:50:04,200 --> 02:50:09,519
Speaker 1: what it means is that it's that kind of connection

3153
02:50:09,800 --> 02:50:18,039
Speaker 1: between the steers person, the oar, the boat, their body,

3154
02:50:18,560 --> 02:50:22,520
Speaker 1: and the water around them and getting all of those

3155
02:50:22,720 --> 02:50:28,400
Speaker 1: things in sync in such a way that the steers

3156
02:50:28,480 --> 02:50:30,840
Speaker 1: person is going where they want to go, the ship

3157
02:50:31,080 --> 02:50:34,920
Speaker 1: or the boat doesn't capsize and they don't lose the

3158
02:50:35,000 --> 02:50:39,760
Speaker 1: ore um. And so that's what control means. It's a

3159
02:50:39,879 --> 02:50:48,440
Speaker 1: kind of balancing a kind of connection between the organism

3160
02:50:48,680 --> 02:50:51,240
Speaker 1: and the environment in such a way that it can

3161
02:50:51,320 --> 02:50:56,760
Speaker 1: survive and thrive, and that's what cybernext is focused on. Yeah,

3162
02:50:57,120 --> 02:51:00,440
Speaker 1: the thing I love about them the Steersman, therefore, is

3163
02:51:00,480 --> 02:51:03,120
Speaker 1: that like it's all about it's control in the sense

3164
02:51:03,160 --> 02:51:06,600
Speaker 1: of regulation, but all also like very importantly in cybernetics,

3165
02:51:06,640 --> 02:51:11,039
Speaker 1: it's almost always self regulation UM because like the one

3166
02:51:11,080 --> 02:51:15,400
Speaker 1: of the kind of core principles again like the because

3167
02:51:15,480 --> 02:51:17,920
Speaker 1: the term usually calls to mind this like kind of

3168
02:51:18,080 --> 02:51:23,040
Speaker 1: terminator like UM, like cyber gothic kind of domination. It's

3169
02:51:23,040 --> 02:51:25,160
Speaker 1: actually not with the field is about at all. It's

3170
02:51:25,240 --> 02:51:27,960
Speaker 1: UM because one of the core insights of cybernetics is

3171
02:51:28,000 --> 02:51:31,880
Speaker 1: actually that any given system UM, the only thing that

3172
02:51:31,920 --> 02:51:34,880
Speaker 1: can really control it is itself because of the sheer

3173
02:51:34,959 --> 02:51:40,280
Speaker 1: complexity of systems. So that like UM, like the kind

3174
02:51:40,320 --> 02:51:43,200
Speaker 1: of like top down external domination of an organism that

3175
02:51:43,280 --> 02:51:44,840
Speaker 1: we all fear is kind of like actually, if you

3176
02:51:44,840 --> 02:51:47,160
Speaker 1: look at the cyber cybanetics literature, that's not not actually

3177
02:51:47,280 --> 02:51:51,480
Speaker 1: really possible because the the the the external controller would

3178
02:51:51,480 --> 02:51:54,480
Speaker 1: never have enough complexity to match what the organism is

3179
02:51:54,520 --> 02:51:59,160
Speaker 1: capable of. UM. And you know, organisms are self regulating

3180
02:51:59,560 --> 02:52:03,560
Speaker 1: system The steersman with his boat is a self regulating

3181
02:52:03,600 --> 02:52:06,520
Speaker 1: system that like regulates its upright position in the water

3182
02:52:06,959 --> 02:52:10,800
Speaker 1: and regulates its course that's directed towards its goal. Um.

3183
02:52:11,480 --> 02:52:13,879
Speaker 1: So it's it's that's why it's so important. I think.

3184
02:52:13,879 --> 02:52:15,520
Speaker 1: Well that's the why we think it's so important for

3185
02:52:16,720 --> 02:52:18,760
Speaker 1: the left and like people who are concerned with these

3186
02:52:18,840 --> 02:52:23,040
Speaker 1: like you know, visions of a politics of autonomy and

3187
02:52:23,120 --> 02:52:25,600
Speaker 1: liberation that really need to look at this stuff, because

3188
02:52:25,600 --> 02:52:27,320
Speaker 1: it turns out there kind of is a science of

3189
02:52:27,520 --> 02:52:33,200
Speaker 1: like autonomous, self guiding organic systems you know, sEH no

3190
02:52:33,360 --> 02:52:38,039
Speaker 1: terminator here, Yes, and yeah, I mean you know when

3191
02:52:38,160 --> 02:52:44,680
Speaker 1: you see uh, scary videos of militarized robots and they're

3192
02:52:44,920 --> 02:52:50,920
Speaker 1: learning to you know, jump and fire weapons and all

3193
02:52:51,000 --> 02:52:54,680
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, there certainly is cybernetics involved there,

3194
02:52:55,400 --> 02:53:00,600
Speaker 1: but that is a kind of domain application of cybernetics.

3195
02:53:00,720 --> 02:53:04,400
Speaker 1: Rather than defining what cybernetics is, it's really kind of

3196
02:53:04,959 --> 02:53:10,760
Speaker 1: holistic systems thinking in general is what cybernetics is. Yeah. Yeah,

3197
02:53:10,840 --> 02:53:13,000
Speaker 1: that that's that's that's that's probably worth emphasizing, right that,

3198
02:53:13,080 --> 02:53:16,480
Speaker 1: Like um, um, cybernetics in some ways is kind of

3199
02:53:16,600 --> 02:53:19,560
Speaker 1: like out of fashion these days, like it it kind

3200
02:53:19,560 --> 02:53:23,440
Speaker 1: of evolved into systems thinking, and like, um, I guess

3201
02:53:23,480 --> 02:53:25,440
Speaker 1: a lot of its lessons got kind of absorbed in general,

3202
02:53:25,560 --> 02:53:29,119
Speaker 1: but we find there's great value in going back to them,

3203
02:53:29,360 --> 02:53:32,080
Speaker 1: the kind of originators and like focusing on that field.

3204
02:53:33,040 --> 02:53:35,760
Speaker 1: It's like we on the show. We got into the

3205
02:53:35,800 --> 02:53:40,160
Speaker 1: cybernetics angle by reading Andrew Pickering in his book The

3206
02:53:40,200 --> 02:53:43,280
Speaker 1: Cybernetic Brain, in which um, he kind of acknowledged that

3207
02:53:43,360 --> 02:53:45,120
Speaker 1: like there's he kind of split it into two, like

3208
02:53:45,160 --> 02:53:48,080
Speaker 1: there's American cybernetics like which had that kind of like

3209
02:53:48,959 --> 02:53:52,160
Speaker 1: um dour kind of military domination sort of flavor to

3210
02:53:52,280 --> 02:53:54,280
Speaker 1: us that like it's kind of an earned reputation there.

3211
02:53:54,680 --> 02:53:57,800
Speaker 1: But Pickering was more concerned with British cybernetics. Um. It's

3212
02:53:57,879 --> 02:54:00,160
Speaker 1: like a lot of British thinkers that and had a

3213
02:54:00,280 --> 02:54:03,440
Speaker 1: very different flavor there where it was more open ended.

3214
02:54:03,520 --> 02:54:04,800
Speaker 1: It was kind of had more of a focus on

3215
02:54:04,920 --> 02:54:08,000
Speaker 1: kind of liberation than like politics and stuff. And in fact,

3216
02:54:08,040 --> 02:54:12,000
Speaker 1: some of those like Gray Walter was like explicitly an anarchist,

3217
02:54:12,160 --> 02:54:15,680
Speaker 1: like wrote in Anarchist um like journals and stuff like that. Um,

3218
02:54:15,920 --> 02:54:18,800
Speaker 1: and for him, like those two things went hand in

3219
02:54:18,840 --> 02:54:22,640
Speaker 1: glove right like that like um liberatory politics as like

3220
02:54:23,640 --> 02:54:27,680
Speaker 1: um the politics of like human flourishing, like as human

3221
02:54:27,800 --> 02:54:31,119
Speaker 1: human beings, as autonomous units flourishing in their own contexts,

3222
02:54:31,560 --> 02:54:34,120
Speaker 1: and of like social systems that would enable that kind

3223
02:54:34,120 --> 02:54:36,400
Speaker 1: of flourishing. To him, that was just hand in glove

3224
02:54:36,440 --> 02:54:38,640
Speaker 1: with cyberan attics. There was no real distinction there. It

3225
02:54:38,760 --> 02:54:40,320
Speaker 1: was just like, yeah, these these two things fit each

3226
02:54:40,360 --> 02:54:45,240
Speaker 1: other perfectly, which you lose later with like general systems

3227
02:54:45,240 --> 02:54:48,280
Speaker 1: theory sort of stuff. You know, it's like, there's there's plenty.

3228
02:54:48,360 --> 02:54:49,800
Speaker 1: I don't know who am I thinking of here, like

3229
02:54:49,879 --> 02:54:53,840
Speaker 1: them that the Talipe, that guy with the like black

3230
02:54:53,879 --> 02:54:56,320
Speaker 1: Swan sort of stuff, Like he's big into systems and stuff,

3231
02:54:56,360 --> 02:54:59,600
Speaker 1: but like isn't so much um, isn't so much into

3232
02:54:59,600 --> 02:55:01,840
Speaker 1: the liberal Tory politics. I guess, you know, a lot

3233
02:55:01,879 --> 02:55:03,640
Speaker 1: of that angle is kind of lost. Yeah, And I

3234
02:55:03,760 --> 02:55:05,440
Speaker 1: think this is awesome. This is you know, this is

3235
02:55:05,440 --> 02:55:09,080
Speaker 1: sort of a product of, I guess, the broader ideological

3236
02:55:09,200 --> 02:55:12,040
Speaker 1: course that's going on while sucho Cybernie comes in and

3237
02:55:12,080 --> 02:55:14,760
Speaker 1: out of fashion. And I think I think we should

3238
02:55:15,160 --> 02:55:17,680
Speaker 1: go back a bit to the beginning to sort of

3239
02:55:17,760 --> 02:55:21,440
Speaker 1: situate this because I know, like when when I, like

3240
02:55:21,520 --> 02:55:24,200
Speaker 1: before I ever did any reading, let's ever next, Like

3241
02:55:24,320 --> 02:55:26,240
Speaker 1: my imediate assumption was that it was. It was you

3242
02:55:26,280 --> 02:55:27,880
Speaker 1: know this, this is the thing that was entirely just

3243
02:55:28,879 --> 02:55:30,920
Speaker 1: based off of computers, right that this is like this

3244
02:55:31,080 --> 02:55:35,880
Speaker 1: is and that's not really true from might understandtanding of it.

3245
02:55:36,200 --> 02:55:38,959
Speaker 1: Can we go back and sort of like talk about

3246
02:55:39,000 --> 02:55:41,560
Speaker 1: where this came from a bit and how it's sort

3247
02:55:41,600 --> 02:55:50,360
Speaker 1: of moves over this over certain sages. Yeah, yeah, I

3248
02:55:50,720 --> 02:55:55,320
Speaker 1: think you can kind of trace it back in it's

3249
02:55:55,480 --> 02:56:05,120
Speaker 1: sort of European origins to UM. You could probably say Hagel, uh,

3250
02:56:05,440 --> 02:56:11,400
Speaker 1: you know, his his move towards like UM understanding being

3251
02:56:11,520 --> 02:56:15,200
Speaker 1: not just a substance but as subject, I think is

3252
02:56:15,680 --> 02:56:19,160
Speaker 1: a move towards a kind of cybernetic understanding, where you

3253
02:56:19,320 --> 02:56:27,960
Speaker 1: understand the whole system as a holistic entity as opposed

3254
02:56:28,000 --> 02:56:34,640
Speaker 1: to just an individual interacting with an external environment. UM.

3255
02:56:35,400 --> 02:56:39,160
Speaker 1: And you can also see this come up in say

3256
02:56:41,120 --> 02:56:46,720
Speaker 1: there was a ecologist x skill in the German ecologists

3257
02:56:47,040 --> 02:56:50,680
Speaker 1: in the early twentieth century, I believe, who was trying

3258
02:56:50,760 --> 02:56:55,640
Speaker 1: to understand, you know, the organism in its environment. The

3259
02:56:55,760 --> 02:56:59,920
Speaker 1: sort of precursors to ecology can be seen as precursors

3260
02:57:00,040 --> 02:57:06,400
Speaker 1: to cybernetics UM. And then when you get to the

3261
02:57:06,560 --> 02:57:11,680
Speaker 1: kind of development of cybernetics as a science or as

3262
02:57:11,760 --> 02:57:17,720
Speaker 1: a discipline UM in the mid twentieth century. It's not

3263
02:57:18,200 --> 02:57:26,720
Speaker 1: exactly about computing, it's UM. It's more about balancing a

3264
02:57:27,000 --> 02:57:33,560
Speaker 1: machine with its environment. So UM. Sort of prototypical UM

3265
02:57:34,840 --> 02:57:39,560
Speaker 1: machine of this kind was the servo mechanism, which was

3266
02:57:39,879 --> 02:57:45,640
Speaker 1: used to help guide a like an anti aircraft gun

3267
02:57:46,200 --> 02:57:50,400
Speaker 1: in shooting down enemy aircraft, so making sure it tracks

3268
02:57:50,520 --> 02:57:54,200
Speaker 1: properly with the target and doesn't lose the target and

3269
02:57:54,360 --> 02:57:59,600
Speaker 1: is assisting the operator in operating the gun instead of

3270
02:58:00,080 --> 02:58:06,760
Speaker 1: us being a inanimate object that has trouble tracking what

3271
02:58:06,920 --> 02:58:09,680
Speaker 1: it's a very fast moving target. I mean, you can

3272
02:58:09,720 --> 02:58:12,760
Speaker 1: even think back to like the you know in World

3273
02:58:12,800 --> 02:58:15,920
Speaker 1: War One when they discovered, hey, we could actually like

3274
02:58:16,080 --> 02:58:18,960
Speaker 1: synchronize the timing of the propeller and the timing of

3275
02:58:19,040 --> 02:58:21,520
Speaker 1: our gun on the front of this plane so that

3276
02:58:21,680 --> 02:58:25,320
Speaker 1: our guns aren't destroying our propellers and shooting and we're

3277
02:58:25,400 --> 02:58:28,640
Speaker 1: we're we're shooting our own planes down with our guns

3278
02:58:28,840 --> 02:58:34,200
Speaker 1: when we're dog fighting, right Like it's uh, yeah, that's

3279
02:58:34,200 --> 02:58:38,240
Speaker 1: the system's understanding, right, So that's UM. That's that's Norbert

3280
02:58:38,320 --> 02:58:41,320
Speaker 1: Lenard Rice and working on the automated gun turret stuff,

3281
02:58:41,320 --> 02:58:45,160
Speaker 1: and that's he coins the term cybernetics to like um

3282
02:58:45,440 --> 02:58:47,800
Speaker 1: given name to the thing he was starting to discover.

3283
02:58:47,959 --> 02:58:49,520
Speaker 1: And it's like he was kind of pulling together a

3284
02:58:49,560 --> 02:58:51,880
Speaker 1: bunch of threats there, and like one of those kind

3285
02:58:51,879 --> 02:58:55,440
Speaker 1: of important insights is that like um, like they couldn't

3286
02:58:55,560 --> 02:58:59,000
Speaker 1: get an improvement in like targeting and accuracy without like

3287
02:58:59,520 --> 02:59:02,039
Speaker 1: basically making the gun turret and agent of its own

3288
02:59:02,160 --> 02:59:04,880
Speaker 1: that like and the like the turret and the gunner

3289
02:59:04,920 --> 02:59:10,680
Speaker 1: would be cooperative agents that in combination would achieve their goal.

3290
02:59:10,800 --> 02:59:13,280
Speaker 1: But like there was there was there's something strange and

3291
02:59:13,280 --> 02:59:15,160
Speaker 1: spooky about that. And I think that then the sort

3292
02:59:15,200 --> 02:59:18,240
Speaker 1: of feedback mechanism inside the turret gives it a sort

3293
02:59:18,280 --> 02:59:21,640
Speaker 1: of weird agency that combines with the agency of the

3294
02:59:21,680 --> 02:59:27,080
Speaker 1: gunner to like going to the whole system towards the goal. Um. Yes.

3295
02:59:27,440 --> 02:59:31,320
Speaker 1: And what it ends up becoming then is a kind

3296
02:59:31,400 --> 02:59:39,480
Speaker 1: of boundary space where the distinction between human and machine

3297
02:59:40,320 --> 02:59:45,240
Speaker 1: uh starts to become ambiguous because they both start to

3298
02:59:45,320 --> 02:59:48,400
Speaker 1: possess they're both understood to have a kind of agency,

3299
02:59:48,920 --> 02:59:52,560
Speaker 1: they're both understood to have kinds of like functions, and

3300
02:59:54,480 --> 02:59:57,680
Speaker 1: then you kind of get this sort of like human

3301
02:59:57,800 --> 03:00:01,720
Speaker 1: machine interface idea. And you can start to bring in

3302
03:00:01,800 --> 03:00:05,680
Speaker 1: all of these different ideas from like anthropology, from physiology,

3303
03:00:06,280 --> 03:00:12,320
Speaker 1: from math, from ecology, uh, and they all start to

3304
03:00:12,680 --> 03:00:18,360
Speaker 1: interact in this domain of cybernetics. And like the core,

3305
03:00:18,520 --> 03:00:21,040
Speaker 1: the core idea of them that kind of ties everything

3306
03:00:21,080 --> 03:00:25,760
Speaker 1: together is that of feedback. UM. So like weener realizes

3307
03:00:25,800 --> 03:00:27,960
Speaker 1: that what he needs to do achieve this goal is

3308
03:00:28,200 --> 03:00:32,040
Speaker 1: is a feedback mechanism, and that would is error correcting feedback,

3309
03:00:32,160 --> 03:00:33,640
Speaker 1: right like if the if the gun is slightly too

3310
03:00:33,680 --> 03:00:35,600
Speaker 1: fair to the left, it corrects itself right words and

3311
03:00:35,640 --> 03:00:38,160
Speaker 1: so on. UM. But that, as you said, that that

3312
03:00:38,200 --> 03:00:40,080
Speaker 1: connects across all sorts of things, right, Like you start

3313
03:00:40,120 --> 03:00:45,959
Speaker 1: to realize that's present everywhere in ecology, in neurology, in UM,

3314
03:00:46,120 --> 03:00:49,520
Speaker 1: like that learning is based on feedback, you know. So

3315
03:00:50,160 --> 03:00:52,520
Speaker 1: it's really funny to read to read Norbert Leaner like

3316
03:00:52,640 --> 03:00:56,320
Speaker 1: in the fifties basically describing what would become machine learning,

3317
03:00:56,760 --> 03:00:58,760
Speaker 1: and he's just like he just off the cuff, is like, yeah,

3318
03:00:59,360 --> 03:01:01,600
Speaker 1: like if you could if a machine could like UM,

3319
03:01:02,240 --> 03:01:05,400
Speaker 1: or if if any system could just like UM analyze

3320
03:01:05,440 --> 03:01:08,119
Speaker 1: its own performance and then feedback onto itself, it would

3321
03:01:08,120 --> 03:01:09,720
Speaker 1: it would learn any old pattern you wanted it to

3322
03:01:10,040 --> 03:01:12,560
Speaker 1: and he's like yeah, he turns out he was completely correct.

3323
03:01:12,640 --> 03:01:15,520
Speaker 1: And that's that's where kind of like gets into it.

3324
03:01:15,560 --> 03:01:18,960
Speaker 1: Like you get later thinkers like Ross Ashby, who was

3325
03:01:19,440 --> 03:01:22,520
Speaker 1: um and like other folks like in or in and

3326
03:01:22,560 --> 03:01:25,240
Speaker 1: around psychiatry, we were like really interested in how the

3327
03:01:25,280 --> 03:01:28,000
Speaker 1: brain worked. And that's that's the other thing that feeds

3328
03:01:28,040 --> 03:01:32,440
Speaker 1: into like cybernetics is like, um, it's it's why Pickering

3329
03:01:32,480 --> 03:01:34,640
Speaker 1: called his book the Cybernetic Brains, because like the brain

3330
03:01:34,959 --> 03:01:38,160
Speaker 1: and like nervous systems show up so much in that field,

3331
03:01:38,320 --> 03:01:41,360
Speaker 1: right that like the brain being a kind of learning

3332
03:01:41,360 --> 03:01:45,039
Speaker 1: and adapt an adapt adaptation machine attached to the body

3333
03:01:45,120 --> 03:01:48,560
Speaker 1: or whatever, and like, um, yeah, do you know there's

3334
03:01:48,560 --> 03:01:51,800
Speaker 1: there's something fascinating there, and like, um, the I mean

3335
03:01:51,920 --> 03:01:54,080
Speaker 1: there's something kind of possibly troubling and kind of melting

3336
03:01:54,120 --> 03:01:57,280
Speaker 1: down the distinctions between living organisms and machines or whatever,

3337
03:01:57,360 --> 03:02:00,640
Speaker 1: but like there's also something very compelled and just link

3338
03:02:00,800 --> 03:02:04,160
Speaker 1: recognizing the same patterns happening at all these different levels,

3339
03:02:04,280 --> 03:02:08,440
Speaker 1: right that link, Um, like you get similar behaviors and

3340
03:02:08,520 --> 03:02:10,560
Speaker 1: similar kind of outcomes, and then you know it turns

3341
03:02:10,600 --> 03:02:12,320
Speaker 1: out like you can kind of do a science on

3342
03:02:12,400 --> 03:02:16,080
Speaker 1: these things and and come up with an even better

3343
03:02:16,120 --> 03:02:20,800
Speaker 1: explanation to my frameworks based on your observations across many fields. Yes,

3344
03:02:21,040 --> 03:02:25,800
Speaker 1: and so it is in a sense about computers. But

3345
03:02:26,000 --> 03:02:31,520
Speaker 1: the computers are really just understood to act like a

3346
03:02:31,720 --> 03:02:36,680
Speaker 1: kind of brain, and that's connected to a nervous system

3347
03:02:37,040 --> 03:02:41,360
Speaker 1: which is connected to you know, like actuators of some kinds,

3348
03:02:41,440 --> 03:02:44,400
Speaker 1: some kinds of like machines that actually do things in

3349
03:02:44,480 --> 03:02:52,640
Speaker 1: the world. So it's not about like say computer science specifically,

3350
03:02:52,879 --> 03:02:55,760
Speaker 1: it's more about, like, well, computers are a useful way

3351
03:02:56,400 --> 03:03:02,280
Speaker 1: to do cybernetic design because as they can act as

3352
03:03:02,320 --> 03:03:06,280
Speaker 1: a control system and they're flexible. It's not that this

3353
03:03:06,560 --> 03:03:11,200
Speaker 1: is about computers really. Yeah, absolutely, And like that you

3354
03:03:11,240 --> 03:03:13,000
Speaker 1: brought you brought up something very important there that like,

3355
03:03:13,240 --> 03:03:16,720
Speaker 1: um in all cases of like cybernetics, like the systems

3356
03:03:16,760 --> 03:03:19,480
Speaker 1: that we're considering are not like isolated like braining a

3357
03:03:19,520 --> 03:03:22,120
Speaker 1: box kind of things. They're all things that are directly

3358
03:03:22,200 --> 03:03:26,160
Speaker 1: engaged with a world, um Like. So it's it's not

3359
03:03:26,320 --> 03:03:30,280
Speaker 1: that kind of like monadic kind of rationalism of like

3360
03:03:30,520 --> 03:03:32,960
Speaker 1: computation just happening in a box somewhere and like per

3361
03:03:33,120 --> 03:03:36,320
Speaker 1: perfect intelligence or that kind of kind of stuff. These

3362
03:03:36,360 --> 03:03:39,000
Speaker 1: are always, like the separantations are always working with systems

3363
03:03:39,040 --> 03:03:43,880
Speaker 1: that were engaged in real time emergence situations um. And

3364
03:03:43,959 --> 03:03:46,840
Speaker 1: because of that, they rapidly kind of like acknowledge that

3365
03:03:48,360 --> 03:03:50,880
Speaker 1: for so many of these important like systems, the only

3366
03:03:50,920 --> 03:03:52,360
Speaker 1: way to figure out what it's going to do is

3367
03:03:52,400 --> 03:03:55,920
Speaker 1: to let it do it um because you can't like

3368
03:03:56,120 --> 03:03:59,160
Speaker 1: pre compute all the possible outcomes you know, of these

3369
03:03:59,240 --> 03:04:04,280
Speaker 1: like very sticky and complex real world situations, the best

3370
03:04:04,320 --> 03:04:05,640
Speaker 1: way to figure out what it's going to do is

3371
03:04:05,720 --> 03:04:08,680
Speaker 1: to let it do it and watch. Yes. And I

3372
03:04:08,760 --> 03:04:11,400
Speaker 1: think I think that's an interesting sort of like if

3373
03:04:11,400 --> 03:04:12,720
Speaker 1: if you look at where a lot of the sort

3374
03:04:12,720 --> 03:04:19,200
Speaker 1: of like techno fetishist like social attempts to sort of

3375
03:04:19,240 --> 03:04:22,119
Speaker 1: like manipulates side the technology have gone, It's like, yeah,

3376
03:04:22,200 --> 03:04:25,200
Speaker 1: you get like like blockchain smart contracts, and it's like

3377
03:04:25,720 --> 03:04:29,280
Speaker 1: the blockchain smart contract is like, Okay, we are going

3378
03:04:29,360 --> 03:04:32,480
Speaker 1: to think of literally everything that could possibly happen and

3379
03:04:32,560 --> 03:04:34,960
Speaker 1: attempt to put it in like a very small amount

3380
03:04:35,000 --> 03:04:38,200
Speaker 1: of code. And if anything like literally anything at all

3381
03:04:38,320 --> 03:04:43,520
Speaker 1: happens that you know that we didn't expect, where now

3382
03:04:43,640 --> 03:04:45,880
Speaker 1: everyone is now screwed because we have just made this

3383
03:04:45,959 --> 03:04:47,400
Speaker 1: thing beautable and put it in such a way that

3384
03:04:47,400 --> 03:04:49,920
Speaker 1: we can't change it. So I think that, yeah, that's

3385
03:04:49,959 --> 03:04:52,960
Speaker 1: a I think this is a useful sort of I

3386
03:04:53,000 --> 03:04:56,119
Speaker 1: mean corrective just just in the way that we've we've

3387
03:04:56,200 --> 03:04:58,280
Speaker 1: we've now like like we've gone backwards, like we've we've

3388
03:04:58,280 --> 03:05:00,720
Speaker 1: gotten into this place where you instead of we need

3389
03:05:00,760 --> 03:05:02,120
Speaker 1: to let these systems play out, we need to let

3390
03:05:02,160 --> 03:05:07,000
Speaker 1: them control themselves, We've gotten to like we think that

3391
03:05:07,160 --> 03:05:10,640
Speaker 1: we can actually just sort of like you know, turn

3392
03:05:11,480 --> 03:05:14,320
Speaker 1: turn the entire system into code that we can break

3393
03:05:14,360 --> 03:05:17,400
Speaker 1: ahead of time and have you know, the basis of

3394
03:05:17,440 --> 03:05:20,160
Speaker 1: some sort of social system off of Yeah, I mean

3395
03:05:20,240 --> 03:05:22,240
Speaker 1: it's I think it's something that like the serpetitions and

3396
03:05:22,320 --> 03:05:25,320
Speaker 1: like maybe Pickering would described as like a kind of

3397
03:05:25,360 --> 03:05:29,320
Speaker 1: perversity of modern caught like the modern mindset like that

3398
03:05:29,480 --> 03:05:33,760
Speaker 1: that kind of like rational like um kind of mindset

3399
03:05:33,840 --> 03:05:36,560
Speaker 1: right like um, And like to the sarpetitions that that

3400
03:05:36,600 --> 03:05:38,840
Speaker 1: whole thing with like the blockchain stuff will be just

3401
03:05:39,000 --> 03:05:42,320
Speaker 1: truly laughable because it's immediate, it's immediately obvious to them

3402
03:05:42,440 --> 03:05:46,560
Speaker 1: that the problem there's like okay, proposing we're going to

3403
03:05:46,680 --> 03:05:48,760
Speaker 1: use a blockchain to regulate some sort of social process

3404
03:05:48,879 --> 03:05:51,160
Speaker 1: or whatever, smart contracts, whatever, and it's like that thing

3405
03:05:51,240 --> 03:05:54,680
Speaker 1: has nowhere near the fidelity required to regulate social processes.

3406
03:05:54,680 --> 03:05:59,680
Speaker 1: Because social processes are unimaginably complex and have just incredible variety.

3407
03:06:00,080 --> 03:06:01,920
Speaker 1: There's a there's a there's like a law that's at

3408
03:06:01,959 --> 03:06:05,160
Speaker 1: the House of Cybernattics called Ashby's law of requisite variety,

3409
03:06:05,720 --> 03:06:09,320
Speaker 1: And in short, it basically states that given a system, um,

3410
03:06:10,480 --> 03:06:13,480
Speaker 1: the only thing that's really capable of regulating is regulating

3411
03:06:13,520 --> 03:06:18,400
Speaker 1: it is itself, because a regulator needs as much variety

3412
03:06:18,480 --> 03:06:20,680
Speaker 1: as the thing it's regulating if it's gonna like actually

3413
03:06:20,720 --> 03:06:24,320
Speaker 1: succeeded it um. And so that's that's the kind of

3414
03:06:24,360 --> 03:06:27,920
Speaker 1: thing that nudges everyone towards like like when you get

3415
03:06:27,959 --> 03:06:30,240
Speaker 1: to someone like Stafford Beer is his whole model of

3416
03:06:30,360 --> 03:06:34,680
Speaker 1: like organization pushes all a lot of the intelligence downwards

3417
03:06:34,720 --> 03:06:37,080
Speaker 1: to the to the bottom layers, because there is basically

3418
03:06:37,120 --> 03:06:39,840
Speaker 1: the people on the ground on the shop floor are

3419
03:06:39,959 --> 03:06:41,880
Speaker 1: the people who are best informed to actually deal with

3420
03:06:41,920 --> 03:06:44,959
Speaker 1: their own situation. And that's that sounds like a banal observation,

3421
03:06:45,040 --> 03:06:47,120
Speaker 1: but like it for Beer, that was actually quite a

3422
03:06:47,120 --> 03:06:50,080
Speaker 1: step forward to like just admit that like trying to

3423
03:06:50,520 --> 03:06:54,000
Speaker 1: trying to like in his context, was like often the

3424
03:06:54,120 --> 03:06:57,320
Speaker 1: organization of a firm, like at our company, Like trying

3425
03:06:57,400 --> 03:07:00,600
Speaker 1: to manage a company from the boardroom is just fucking dechrius, Like,

3426
03:07:01,440 --> 03:07:04,560
Speaker 1: no nobody there has enough information to act on. They're

3427
03:07:04,600 --> 03:07:07,240
Speaker 1: all dumbasses anyway. So for Beer, it was just a

3428
03:07:07,600 --> 03:07:09,280
Speaker 1: like this is where it starts get interesting and it

3429
03:07:09,360 --> 03:07:11,840
Speaker 1: connects to the politics, right that, Like for one of

3430
03:07:11,879 --> 03:07:15,480
Speaker 1: these scientists just observing reality and like you know, using

3431
03:07:16,200 --> 03:07:19,359
Speaker 1: you know, pretty pretty good stray intuitions and like scientific frameworks,

3432
03:07:19,560 --> 03:07:21,120
Speaker 1: just looking at it and going like, oh, it is

3433
03:07:21,200 --> 03:07:23,640
Speaker 1: obviously the case that the best way for society to

3434
03:07:23,760 --> 03:07:28,160
Speaker 1: organize is bottom up self organization. Um. And that that

3435
03:07:28,280 --> 03:07:30,760
Speaker 1: like it's not just a moral point, it's actually a

3436
03:07:30,800 --> 03:07:34,480
Speaker 1: technical point as well. Then like, um, these these top down,

3437
03:07:34,600 --> 03:07:39,160
Speaker 1: bureaucratic kind of micro tyrannies are not only morally objectionable,

3438
03:07:39,200 --> 03:07:41,800
Speaker 1: they're also technically inferior to the kind of like cyber

3439
03:07:41,840 --> 03:07:44,840
Speaker 1: communism we want to institute. Yeah, and I have like

3440
03:07:45,000 --> 03:07:47,480
Speaker 1: one off one of my what if one of my

3441
03:07:47,800 --> 03:07:50,440
Speaker 1: favorite stories about So I worked as a maintenance worker

3442
03:07:50,440 --> 03:07:53,040
Speaker 1: for a while and one day my boss was like,

3443
03:07:53,080 --> 03:07:55,240
Speaker 1: there was some problem with the sink, and my boss

3444
03:07:55,360 --> 03:07:56,680
Speaker 1: was like, no, we don't need the plumbers. I can

3445
03:07:56,720 --> 03:07:59,119
Speaker 1: do this. And so he goes in there and it's

3446
03:07:59,120 --> 03:08:00,520
Speaker 1: it's what it's like. It's it's like a sink in

3447
03:08:00,560 --> 03:08:02,120
Speaker 1: like a building, right, So it's it's just one of

3448
03:08:02,160 --> 03:08:03,880
Speaker 1: those things where there's like a pipe that connects to

3449
03:08:03,959 --> 03:08:06,320
Speaker 1: the top of the sink to like the wall. And

3450
03:08:06,480 --> 03:08:08,440
Speaker 1: he goes, Okay, here, look at this. I'm gonna I'm

3451
03:08:08,440 --> 03:08:10,000
Speaker 1: gonna turn this valve and this is going to turn

3452
03:08:10,040 --> 03:08:12,560
Speaker 1: the water off. And what he instead does is he

3453
03:08:12,640 --> 03:08:16,680
Speaker 1: take he takes the pipe off of the wall and

3454
03:08:16,959 --> 03:08:20,000
Speaker 1: just like a torrent of water is just now shooting

3455
03:08:20,040 --> 03:08:21,960
Speaker 1: out of this pipe because he has removed the thing.

3456
03:08:22,240 --> 03:08:26,080
Speaker 1: He's removed the pipe from the wall. This is you know,

3457
03:08:27,160 --> 03:08:30,080
Speaker 1: this is this is why I think like, yeah, go

3458
03:08:30,520 --> 03:08:32,160
Speaker 1: this this, this, this this, you know this this is

3459
03:08:32,920 --> 03:08:36,360
Speaker 1: like a particularly funny example of how these sort of

3460
03:08:36,400 --> 03:08:39,280
Speaker 1: top down management systems. And this guy like like used

3461
03:08:39,320 --> 03:08:41,000
Speaker 1: to be a maintenance guy, right, but he just like

3462
03:08:41,240 --> 03:08:44,360
Speaker 1: most a plumber and so you know, and he accepts

3463
03:08:44,400 --> 03:08:45,640
Speaker 1: into it and he's like oh no, no, no, no, no,

3464
03:08:45,720 --> 03:08:47,480
Speaker 1: hold on, I know I know how this system works,

3465
03:08:47,520 --> 03:08:50,160
Speaker 1: it's gonna be fine. And it just there's a guys.

3466
03:08:50,480 --> 03:08:52,320
Speaker 1: The guys are of water has so much force. It's

3467
03:08:52,360 --> 03:08:54,920
Speaker 1: like it's like pushing our tool cart across the room.

3468
03:08:58,680 --> 03:09:05,040
Speaker 1: It's like a fighter hydrants. Now I wanted to I

3469
03:09:05,120 --> 03:09:07,200
Speaker 1: guess Beers is an interesting way to go to go

3470
03:09:07,440 --> 03:09:09,800
Speaker 1: into the sort of the politics of what this actually

3471
03:09:09,920 --> 03:09:12,040
Speaker 1: looks like. Do you want to talk about and I

3472
03:09:12,120 --> 03:09:14,800
Speaker 1: know I briefly talked about this in an episode in

3473
03:09:14,840 --> 03:09:17,480
Speaker 1: The Liberalism while back, But do you want to go

3474
03:09:17,560 --> 03:09:20,120
Speaker 1: into sort of more detail into what Beers was up

3475
03:09:20,160 --> 03:09:26,320
Speaker 1: to and the eventually failed attempt, because of military coup,

3476
03:09:26,640 --> 03:09:30,840
Speaker 1: to try to implement like a cybernetic system for organizing

3477
03:09:32,000 --> 03:09:38,640
Speaker 1: essentially an economy. Yeah sure, Um yeah, So Stafford Beer

3478
03:09:39,920 --> 03:09:47,039
Speaker 1: was a UM management consultant UM he and a cyberneticition.

3479
03:09:48,160 --> 03:09:53,480
Speaker 1: He got his start sort of doing operations research UM,

3480
03:09:55,320 --> 03:10:01,200
Speaker 1: which is kind of a precursor to cybernetics UM that

3481
03:10:01,440 --> 03:10:08,760
Speaker 1: is kind of like interested in logistics and organizing systems

3482
03:10:09,560 --> 03:10:14,040
Speaker 1: UM in the British military UM in World War Two.

3483
03:10:15,280 --> 03:10:17,880
Speaker 1: And then he came out of that and became a

3484
03:10:18,000 --> 03:10:25,840
Speaker 1: corporate UH consultant for Operations Research and Management UM and

3485
03:10:26,040 --> 03:10:33,440
Speaker 1: so in working in the corporate world. Um, he saw

3486
03:10:33,800 --> 03:10:37,920
Speaker 1: all of the things that were really screwed up with

3487
03:10:38,280 --> 03:10:44,200
Speaker 1: the status quo UM way of doing business and of

3488
03:10:44,480 --> 03:10:49,080
Speaker 1: organizing things. You know, the way that autocratic power of

3489
03:10:49,280 --> 03:10:55,480
Speaker 1: management creates all kinds of ridiculous problems, The way that

3490
03:10:56,320 --> 03:11:00,320
Speaker 1: managing organizations according to org charts, which are there to

3491
03:11:00,720 --> 03:11:05,800
Speaker 1: assign blame more than anything else, creates all kinds of perversities.

3492
03:11:06,640 --> 03:11:13,160
Speaker 1: The way that organizations fail to adapt to their environments

3493
03:11:13,280 --> 03:11:17,879
Speaker 1: because they get into these kinds of strange neuroses um.

3494
03:11:19,120 --> 03:11:21,000
Speaker 1: And you know, just sort of going through all of

3495
03:11:21,120 --> 03:11:28,840
Speaker 1: that and more often than not being unable to intervene

3496
03:11:29,080 --> 03:11:35,240
Speaker 1: in an effective way uh to um address these problems,

3497
03:11:35,840 --> 03:11:40,199
Speaker 1: and just sort of like seeing how these little instances

3498
03:11:40,480 --> 03:11:47,360
Speaker 1: of perverse corporate culture are indicative of the broader problems

3499
03:11:47,920 --> 03:11:53,160
Speaker 1: of our society as a whole and of capitalism, right. Um.

3500
03:11:54,120 --> 03:11:58,600
Speaker 1: And so you know, he had a basis from his

3501
03:11:58,760 --> 03:12:03,160
Speaker 1: time in India during the Second World War in uh

3502
03:12:03,320 --> 03:12:06,800
Speaker 1: kind of like contra uh kind of like you know,

3503
03:12:07,000 --> 03:12:13,879
Speaker 1: Eastern or specifically Indian um, spirituality, yoga, all this kind

3504
03:12:13,959 --> 03:12:17,439
Speaker 1: of stuff. So he kind of had a cult countercultural

3505
03:12:17,600 --> 03:12:21,080
Speaker 1: side to his personality. Um, and he was always doing

3506
03:12:21,240 --> 03:12:26,040
Speaker 1: tinkering strange experiments with cybernetics. He wasn't just the straight

3507
03:12:26,120 --> 03:12:30,760
Speaker 1: laced corporate guy, uh. But it was a combination of

3508
03:12:30,879 --> 03:12:38,160
Speaker 1: that sort of countercultural background with his growing frustration with

3509
03:12:38,400 --> 03:12:43,760
Speaker 1: corporate systems that led him to start to develop ideas

3510
03:12:43,800 --> 03:12:46,600
Speaker 1: about how things could be different. And this kind of

3511
03:12:46,720 --> 03:12:51,200
Speaker 1: meshed up with the thoughts that were happening in Chile

3512
03:12:52,320 --> 03:12:57,880
Speaker 1: during the Chilean Revolution in the early seventies. Um. So

3513
03:12:58,080 --> 03:13:01,840
Speaker 1: they reached out to him uh to come and help

3514
03:13:01,959 --> 03:13:05,920
Speaker 1: out with organizing their economy as they were undergoing this

3515
03:13:06,120 --> 03:13:11,960
Speaker 1: revolutionary process of trying to sort of throw off the

3516
03:13:12,200 --> 03:13:18,400
Speaker 1: shackles of imperialist dependency and create a society that was

3517
03:13:19,280 --> 03:13:24,600
Speaker 1: focused on the flourishing of workers, uh, and of society

3518
03:13:24,680 --> 03:13:26,680
Speaker 1: as a whole, as opposed to one that was based

3519
03:13:26,720 --> 03:13:30,760
Speaker 1: on sort of you know, resource extraction where everything flows

3520
03:13:30,800 --> 03:13:35,240
Speaker 1: to the top. Yeah. You want to explain some more

3521
03:13:35,280 --> 03:13:40,280
Speaker 1: about how that went well? So, um, yeah, it it

3522
03:13:40,920 --> 03:13:42,720
Speaker 1: went well and then it went badly, I guess. Um.

3523
03:13:42,959 --> 03:13:45,760
Speaker 1: But from from from the reading we've done and from

3524
03:13:45,760 --> 03:13:50,200
Speaker 1: our research, it seems like if basically, if the if

3525
03:13:50,280 --> 03:13:53,480
Speaker 1: the US hadn't sent in the fascist to kill them all.

3526
03:13:53,879 --> 03:13:56,080
Speaker 1: Um this this would have worked like it was working,

3527
03:13:56,480 --> 03:13:58,520
Speaker 1: and it was that the project was actually going pretty

3528
03:13:58,560 --> 03:14:02,480
Speaker 1: well explained pret what like I think it becomes it's

3529
03:14:02,480 --> 03:14:05,160
Speaker 1: called product cybers but what what exactly, like what was

3530
03:14:05,200 --> 03:14:09,440
Speaker 1: it doing? So? Um So, like Beer's big kind of

3531
03:14:09,520 --> 03:14:13,560
Speaker 1: innovation is what we call the viable system model or VSM,

3532
03:14:14,160 --> 03:14:16,800
Speaker 1: and it's a model that's, um it's a model for

3533
03:14:16,879 --> 03:14:20,600
Speaker 1: these like autonomous social systems that is kind of taking

3534
03:14:20,720 --> 03:14:22,840
Speaker 1: It's not I wouldn't say it's entirely based on like

3535
03:14:23,040 --> 03:14:24,959
Speaker 1: the structure of the human body, but it's like taking

3536
03:14:25,080 --> 03:14:28,760
Speaker 1: a lot of lessons from biology and neurology and neuroscience

3537
03:14:28,959 --> 03:14:32,120
Speaker 1: and and cybernetics and just kind of meshing them alltogether.

3538
03:14:32,280 --> 03:14:35,800
Speaker 1: Um So, basically, like it's like if your body is

3539
03:14:35,840 --> 03:14:37,920
Speaker 1: basically a bunch of autonomous organs that all take care

3540
03:14:37,959 --> 03:14:40,519
Speaker 1: of their own business, plus a nervous system that synchronizes

3541
03:14:40,560 --> 03:14:44,480
Speaker 1: them and unifies them into a workable hole, then you

3542
03:14:44,520 --> 03:14:47,200
Speaker 1: can kind of see the whole system as having this

3543
03:14:47,320 --> 03:14:51,200
Speaker 1: kind of mixture of vertical and horizontal aspects. Like on

3544
03:14:51,320 --> 03:14:53,680
Speaker 1: the one hand, it has this horizontal aspect where the

3545
03:14:54,400 --> 03:14:58,040
Speaker 1: autonomous like system one units are are well autonomous, more

3546
03:14:58,080 --> 03:15:00,680
Speaker 1: or less, like the heart takes harrish, takes care of

3547
03:15:00,760 --> 03:15:02,480
Speaker 1: its own thing, the lungs take care of their own thing.

3548
03:15:02,760 --> 03:15:06,359
Speaker 1: But then the nervous system meshes them together in layers

3549
03:15:06,440 --> 03:15:10,360
Speaker 1: so that it can say, oh, hold on too much oxygen,

3550
03:15:11,160 --> 03:15:13,640
Speaker 1: dial it down a bit, and then the organs responds

3551
03:15:13,720 --> 03:15:15,880
Speaker 1: dynamically to those those signals. Right, So it's kind of

3552
03:15:15,879 --> 03:15:19,240
Speaker 1: like up down feedback loops right where them the lower

3553
03:15:19,360 --> 03:15:22,000
Speaker 1: levels of the system are the smart bits that are

3554
03:15:22,040 --> 03:15:25,840
Speaker 1: doing all the important work, but there's this supporting infrastructure

3555
03:15:26,520 --> 03:15:29,440
Speaker 1: of the nervous system and the brain that unifies the

3556
03:15:29,440 --> 03:15:32,800
Speaker 1: whole thing and keeps it all on the rails um so,

3557
03:15:33,320 --> 03:15:35,720
Speaker 1: and importantly, it's a kind of recursive model. So like

3558
03:15:35,920 --> 03:15:39,480
Speaker 1: a human being is an autonomous unit, and then that

3559
03:15:39,720 --> 03:15:42,480
Speaker 1: it's that unit is composed of more autonomous units, like

3560
03:15:42,480 --> 03:15:44,800
Speaker 1: the organs and the muscles, and then each of those

3561
03:15:44,920 --> 03:15:47,480
Speaker 1: is composed of cells which are autonomous units, and then

3562
03:15:48,000 --> 03:15:50,360
Speaker 1: you know, so on. But like that latter goes upwards

3563
03:15:50,400 --> 03:15:52,879
Speaker 1: as well, so that like a team is an autonomous

3564
03:15:52,959 --> 03:15:57,000
Speaker 1: unit composed of human beings. A firm, or like a

3565
03:15:57,080 --> 03:16:01,000
Speaker 1: department is a autonomous unit composed of team. A firm

3566
03:16:01,080 --> 03:16:04,720
Speaker 1: is composed of departments like a sector as composed of firms,

3567
03:16:05,280 --> 03:16:09,000
Speaker 1: and it's the same kind of structure at each layer. Um.

3568
03:16:10,320 --> 03:16:13,200
Speaker 1: So that the kind of upside there is that like, um,

3569
03:16:13,680 --> 03:16:16,040
Speaker 1: you don't like you kind of have a unit fairly

3570
03:16:16,320 --> 03:16:18,760
Speaker 1: unifying like set of principles and like a science for

3571
03:16:18,879 --> 03:16:22,560
Speaker 1: doing this kind of like co coordination of autonomous units

3572
03:16:23,120 --> 03:16:26,200
Speaker 1: at every level, at every every layer of society. So

3573
03:16:26,400 --> 03:16:29,800
Speaker 1: like in principle, the sort of like the Serbanetic principles

3574
03:16:29,840 --> 03:16:34,560
Speaker 1: that get applied to cohering members of a team are

3575
03:16:34,680 --> 03:16:37,119
Speaker 1: the same story principles that get applied to like sectors

3576
03:16:37,160 --> 03:16:40,720
Speaker 1: in an economy. Um, with the same kind of you know,

3577
03:16:41,000 --> 03:16:43,480
Speaker 1: bottom up kind of feedback going on as well. Um.

3578
03:16:44,680 --> 03:16:49,040
Speaker 1: So Stafford was an invite to Chile to by the

3579
03:16:49,200 --> 03:16:51,120
Speaker 1: all end a government in so that that was like

3580
03:16:51,760 --> 03:16:55,360
Speaker 1: v right, Um that that that election happens. So he

3581
03:16:55,520 --> 03:17:01,680
Speaker 1: arrived in late vent I think, um, I mean certain

3582
03:17:01,720 --> 03:17:04,080
Speaker 1: on the timeline, but we're looking at those those first

3583
03:17:04,160 --> 03:17:06,600
Speaker 1: few years of the seventies as as the time when

3584
03:17:06,680 --> 03:17:09,480
Speaker 1: this is happening. Yeah, yeah, I d elected in setting

3585
03:17:09,520 --> 03:17:12,080
Speaker 1: n seventy. Yeah, so it's towards the end of that

3586
03:17:12,240 --> 03:17:15,120
Speaker 1: year that he's he's invited and he's basically kind of

3587
03:17:15,160 --> 03:17:17,240
Speaker 1: given the task of like, hey, do all this stuff

3588
03:17:17,360 --> 03:17:20,280
Speaker 1: but with this entire economy, and he's like, yeah, sure, cool.

3589
03:17:20,879 --> 03:17:25,120
Speaker 1: UM so puts together Project cybersen UM And there's kind

3590
03:17:25,120 --> 03:17:27,040
Speaker 1: of long story there of like and them building out

3591
03:17:27,080 --> 03:17:28,840
Speaker 1: this kind of infrastructure and like it's it's all highly

3592
03:17:28,879 --> 03:17:33,600
Speaker 1: experimental UM and highly tensive. Like they one of the

3593
03:17:33,640 --> 03:17:35,640
Speaker 1: big problems they run into is that like they don't

3594
03:17:35,680 --> 03:17:38,520
Speaker 1: have very much in the way of like hardware, especially

3595
03:17:38,560 --> 03:17:41,440
Speaker 1: because they're under embargo. So they had like, um a

3596
03:17:41,560 --> 03:17:44,120
Speaker 1: pretty what what at the time was a pretty crafty

3597
03:17:44,160 --> 03:17:48,600
Speaker 1: old mainframe that they ran the around the software on UM.

3598
03:17:49,360 --> 03:17:52,440
Speaker 1: But like step step one was like UM installing this

3599
03:17:52,520 --> 03:17:55,360
Speaker 1: like huge communications network amongst all the factories and UM

3600
03:17:55,640 --> 03:17:57,520
Speaker 1: like setting up like the workers committees and stuff and

3601
03:17:57,520 --> 03:18:00,560
Speaker 1: would feed information into us. And they would kind again

3602
03:18:00,600 --> 03:18:03,600
Speaker 1: this like feedback thing where you kind of take signals

3603
03:18:03,680 --> 03:18:07,200
Speaker 1: from the economy, integrate them, and then go, oh, you're

3604
03:18:07,240 --> 03:18:10,119
Speaker 1: producing too much steel, route some of your product over

3605
03:18:10,160 --> 03:18:12,920
Speaker 1: to this this factory and it will be better used there.

3606
03:18:13,040 --> 03:18:15,160
Speaker 1: And then you know, you guys over there turn up

3607
03:18:15,160 --> 03:18:18,480
Speaker 1: this dial. You turn them down this dial. So and

3608
03:18:18,600 --> 03:18:21,400
Speaker 1: then if that plan doesn't quite work out, then you've

3609
03:18:21,400 --> 03:18:24,400
Speaker 1: got another layer of feedback tomorrow to say, Okay, that

3610
03:18:24,480 --> 03:18:26,640
Speaker 1: plan didn't quite work here's an adjusted plan. So it's

3611
03:18:26,959 --> 03:18:30,680
Speaker 1: it's just like both bottom up and top down sort

3612
03:18:30,720 --> 03:18:33,800
Speaker 1: of loop of feedback. That's like I think that the

3613
03:18:33,879 --> 03:18:39,720
Speaker 1: phrase pickering is is reciprocal adaptation, where at the economy

3614
03:18:39,840 --> 03:18:42,160
Speaker 1: and its firms and its workers are all kind of

3615
03:18:42,160 --> 03:18:43,880
Speaker 1: adapting to each other in real time in a kind

3616
03:18:43,920 --> 03:18:50,720
Speaker 1: of in a in a full system. Um uh yeah, anything,

3617
03:18:51,440 --> 03:18:55,400
Speaker 1: no that I mean, that's that's essentially what Cyberson was.

3618
03:18:55,720 --> 03:19:03,080
Speaker 1: It was a system designed too largely, I think, at

3619
03:19:03,160 --> 03:19:13,160
Speaker 1: first supplement the market, although Beer later realizes that like, actually,

3620
03:19:13,280 --> 03:19:15,280
Speaker 1: if you have a good system of this kind, you

3621
03:19:15,360 --> 03:19:22,920
Speaker 1: probably don't need a market. Um. But essentially it was like, Okay,

3622
03:19:23,800 --> 03:19:28,040
Speaker 1: our economy has been one that has been built around

3623
03:19:28,240 --> 03:19:34,960
Speaker 1: dependence too, uh, you know, especially the United States, and

3624
03:19:35,040 --> 03:19:37,040
Speaker 1: it's been organized in that way, and we need to

3625
03:19:37,200 --> 03:19:41,560
Speaker 1: reorganize the economy both to promote the well being of

3626
03:19:41,640 --> 03:19:45,560
Speaker 1: the workers, the autonomy of the workers, realized the ideals

3627
03:19:45,600 --> 03:19:48,840
Speaker 1: of socialism in that way, and also to create a

3628
03:19:48,920 --> 03:19:54,840
Speaker 1: system that is less dependent on those existing structures of imperialism,

3629
03:19:55,440 --> 03:20:00,960
Speaker 1: and so having this reciprocal adaptation um, having systems in

3630
03:20:01,080 --> 03:20:06,520
Speaker 1: place to connect things that were previously disconnected would allow

3631
03:20:06,600 --> 03:20:09,920
Speaker 1: you to move in that way of increasing autonomy and

3632
03:20:10,080 --> 03:20:14,160
Speaker 1: increasing freedom Um. And that was generally the idea of

3633
03:20:14,320 --> 03:20:19,760
Speaker 1: cyber sin Um. Yes, yeah, And there was something very

3634
03:20:19,800 --> 03:20:23,440
Speaker 1: interesting like when we were reading the reissue of his

3635
03:20:23,480 --> 03:20:24,960
Speaker 1: book Brain of the Firm, where he has a section

3636
03:20:25,000 --> 03:20:29,040
Speaker 1: at the end that that documents this whole experience in Chile. Um.

3637
03:20:29,280 --> 03:20:32,240
Speaker 1: There's a really interesting parents where towards the end of

3638
03:20:32,240 --> 03:20:35,000
Speaker 1: it he's like, and this is like getting up towards

3639
03:20:35,080 --> 03:20:38,080
Speaker 1: the coupe where he's like, um, he and the other

3640
03:20:38,240 --> 03:20:40,880
Speaker 1: cybersin operatives like on the people are putting this together

3641
03:20:41,280 --> 03:20:43,959
Speaker 1: realize that like the workers and like people in towns

3642
03:20:44,000 --> 03:20:47,160
Speaker 1: are like just on their own, just like using this

3643
03:20:47,560 --> 03:20:51,320
Speaker 1: stuff and these kind of principles to just like abolish

3644
03:20:51,400 --> 03:20:56,640
Speaker 1: the value form basically like but notably without the involvement

3645
03:20:56,680 --> 03:20:59,920
Speaker 1: from above, like as in Beer and Company, stumble upon

3646
03:21:00,080 --> 03:21:02,720
Speaker 1: this just happening where they're like, oh my god, they're

3647
03:21:02,760 --> 03:21:05,000
Speaker 1: just they're just dismantling the market, and it's like it's

3648
03:21:05,040 --> 03:21:08,600
Speaker 1: all just kind of happening, and that's there was something

3649
03:21:08,680 --> 03:21:11,880
Speaker 1: really wonderful to that. Then like it it indicated like

3650
03:21:12,040 --> 03:21:14,640
Speaker 1: there was there really wants something to it that like

3651
03:21:15,879 --> 03:21:20,039
Speaker 1: you could like as in people working, people could use

3652
03:21:20,120 --> 03:21:23,040
Speaker 1: these tools and this like new way of organizing themselves.

3653
03:21:23,600 --> 03:21:28,800
Speaker 1: Two just like liquidate market relations and wage relations like

3654
03:21:28,920 --> 03:21:32,520
Speaker 1: spun spontaneously. But it's a spontaneity that's that's not really

3655
03:21:33,360 --> 03:21:36,000
Speaker 1: it does. It's it feels very different from the kind

3656
03:21:36,000 --> 03:21:39,720
Speaker 1: of spontaneity you often get in like the way leftist

3657
03:21:39,760 --> 03:21:41,480
Speaker 1: sort of like anarchists talk about it often, like the

3658
03:21:41,600 --> 03:21:43,920
Speaker 1: kind of spontaneity is like a magical sort of thing

3659
03:21:43,959 --> 03:21:46,000
Speaker 1: that is like where freedom just arrives from out of nowhere.

3660
03:21:46,040 --> 03:21:49,360
Speaker 1: But this this was like installing infrastructure to enable freedom

3661
03:21:49,360 --> 03:21:52,440
Speaker 1: and then it actually kind of happening until the fascists

3662
03:21:52,440 --> 03:21:54,720
Speaker 1: showed up. You know. Yeah, what I think is really

3663
03:21:54,800 --> 03:21:58,000
Speaker 1: interesting about it is that so you know, you have

3664
03:21:58,240 --> 03:21:59,920
Speaker 1: you have like you have this sort of central control

3665
03:22:00,000 --> 03:22:02,080
Speaker 1: center from which a lot of stuff is being run.

3666
03:22:02,200 --> 03:22:05,560
Speaker 1: But you know, yeah, it's it's it's it's it's a

3667
03:22:05,640 --> 03:22:09,680
Speaker 1: weird system because it's trying to link together like a

3668
03:22:09,800 --> 03:22:12,280
Speaker 1: lot of different kinds of firms like you have something

3669
03:22:12,320 --> 03:22:13,960
Speaker 1: saying in private firms, but you have a lot of

3670
03:22:14,040 --> 03:22:15,400
Speaker 1: you have a lot of state run firms. You also

3671
03:22:15,440 --> 03:22:18,039
Speaker 1: have firms that throughout this whole process, people like workers

3672
03:22:18,120 --> 03:22:20,920
Speaker 1: just taking over factories. They're setting up these sort of

3673
03:22:21,040 --> 03:22:25,560
Speaker 1: like callum industrial cordons. I think I'm remembering my Spanish

3674
03:22:25,640 --> 03:22:28,400
Speaker 1: rights like yeah, they they you know, they start setting

3675
03:22:28,480 --> 03:22:30,520
Speaker 1: up their own institutions, and it's it's this becomes this

3676
03:22:30,600 --> 03:22:33,320
Speaker 1: way of sort of like networking these groups together. And

3677
03:22:34,400 --> 03:22:36,119
Speaker 1: the thing that's the other thing thing is it's interesting

3678
03:22:36,200 --> 03:22:37,480
Speaker 1: is you know, so you have you have them on

3679
03:22:37,520 --> 03:22:40,280
Speaker 1: the one hand, like just getting rid of markets and

3680
03:22:40,320 --> 03:22:43,240
Speaker 1: going like okay, well we can just coordinate production through

3681
03:22:43,360 --> 03:22:45,640
Speaker 1: this and like not have markets. And then the second

3682
03:22:45,680 --> 03:22:48,520
Speaker 1: thing they do is it's the freedom immediately becomes political

3683
03:22:49,160 --> 03:22:51,000
Speaker 1: in the sense that like yeah, like one of one

3684
03:22:51,000 --> 03:22:52,920
Speaker 1: of the things they do they there that that's what's

3685
03:22:52,959 --> 03:22:55,200
Speaker 1: going on in this period is that and there's Chile

3686
03:22:55,400 --> 03:22:59,600
Speaker 1: has a very very right wing like it's basically like

3687
03:22:59,680 --> 03:23:01,760
Speaker 1: the even today it's like it's like really like one

3688
03:23:01,840 --> 03:23:03,920
Speaker 1: of the only like union like huge unions left in

3689
03:23:04,000 --> 03:23:06,480
Speaker 1: Chile is the truckers unions and those guys are extremely

3690
03:23:06,560 --> 03:23:08,920
Speaker 1: right wing there in this period of being backed by

3691
03:23:08,959 --> 03:23:11,240
Speaker 1: the CIA. They're being trained by f l c i

3692
03:23:11,400 --> 03:23:16,280
Speaker 1: O as I say, like every episode, but like yeah,

3693
03:23:16,320 --> 03:23:19,160
Speaker 1: and and they're you know, they're intentionally doing strikes, trying

3694
03:23:19,160 --> 03:23:21,920
Speaker 1: to oversaw the government by blocking production, and you know,

3695
03:23:22,160 --> 03:23:24,840
Speaker 1: like the workers are like, Okay, hold on, we can

3696
03:23:24,879 --> 03:23:28,440
Speaker 1: just use this symenetic system to figure out where these

3697
03:23:28,560 --> 03:23:31,720
Speaker 1: blocks are, figured out where materials needs to move through,

3698
03:23:31,879 --> 03:23:33,840
Speaker 1: and we can just you know, we can just stop

3699
03:23:33,879 --> 03:23:36,280
Speaker 1: the kind of revolution. We can just sort of like

3700
03:23:37,360 --> 03:23:38,680
Speaker 1: we can we can just we can just fight our

3701
03:23:38,720 --> 03:23:41,320
Speaker 1: way through it. And and it's interesting, is like this

3702
03:23:41,440 --> 03:23:44,840
Speaker 1: happens and so then that that like the the original

3703
03:23:44,920 --> 03:23:47,520
Speaker 1: plan of using sort of of using these truckers is

3704
03:23:47,560 --> 03:23:50,680
Speaker 1: like the sort of right wing like the first attempt fails,

3705
03:23:50,800 --> 03:23:53,040
Speaker 1: and once that fails, it's like they have to go

3706
03:23:53,120 --> 03:23:59,360
Speaker 1: to the military, and the coup eventually works. It's hard

3707
03:23:59,360 --> 03:24:02,520
Speaker 1: to resist who outright, isn't it. M Yeah, Yeah. The

3708
03:24:02,600 --> 03:24:04,800
Speaker 1: thing with the truckers strike is not like yeah, it's

3709
03:24:04,879 --> 03:24:06,880
Speaker 1: you can very well imagine like the CIA and stuff

3710
03:24:06,920 --> 03:24:08,520
Speaker 1: going into a thinking that this is what we'll do.

3711
03:24:08,600 --> 03:24:11,400
Speaker 1: That's right, this will sell it up but not realizing

3712
03:24:11,480 --> 03:24:14,800
Speaker 1: that the workers actually had in their hands a like

3713
03:24:15,760 --> 03:24:19,240
Speaker 1: vastly more sophisticated system for out maneuvering them. Yeah, and

3714
03:24:19,600 --> 03:24:22,320
Speaker 1: that system works like a charm, like like clockwork, just

3715
03:24:22,440 --> 03:24:25,080
Speaker 1: like and even like you really accounts from this thing,

3716
03:24:25,160 --> 03:24:28,360
Speaker 1: like both in eating Medina's cybernetic revelation areas and in

3717
03:24:28,440 --> 03:24:30,840
Speaker 1: Beer's on account And there's like the sense that was

3718
03:24:30,840 --> 03:24:33,080
Speaker 1: actually kind of spooky and weird. But I'm like even

3719
03:24:33,120 --> 03:24:35,240
Speaker 1: the people involved didn't quite expect it to work out

3720
03:24:35,280 --> 03:24:37,360
Speaker 1: that way, and that like they were surprised at how

3721
03:24:37,400 --> 03:24:39,400
Speaker 1: effective it is, but that it gets back to the

3722
03:24:39,480 --> 03:24:43,960
Speaker 1: core of cyberneticscent like feedback is weirdly effective at getting

3723
03:24:44,000 --> 03:24:47,360
Speaker 1: things done. You know, these like highly tuned feedback systems,

3724
03:24:47,959 --> 03:24:50,640
Speaker 1: they give you a lot of power to out maneuver

3725
03:24:50,879 --> 03:24:53,920
Speaker 1: this comebacks, you know. Yeah, And I think in some sense,

3726
03:24:54,040 --> 03:24:57,320
Speaker 1: like this is like people talk a lot about Chile

3727
03:24:57,480 --> 03:24:59,400
Speaker 1: is sort of like the sort of foreclosed future of

3728
03:24:59,520 --> 03:25:01,600
Speaker 1: like an elect told democratic socialism. But I don't think

3729
03:25:01,640 --> 03:25:04,040
Speaker 1: that was the potential of the moment. The potential of

3730
03:25:04,080 --> 03:25:07,640
Speaker 1: the moment was this. And it's interesting to me that

3731
03:25:07,920 --> 03:25:12,199
Speaker 1: well because Beers kind of traces out a political history

3732
03:25:13,240 --> 03:25:16,200
Speaker 1: that never quite happened, which is so okay. One of

3733
03:25:16,240 --> 03:25:19,040
Speaker 1: the one of the sort of big political trends over

3734
03:25:19,080 --> 03:25:20,880
Speaker 1: the course of the twenties century is you have all

3735
03:25:21,000 --> 03:25:24,039
Speaker 1: these people who were sort of like they they basically

3736
03:25:24,080 --> 03:25:26,520
Speaker 1: got turned into planning bureaucrats during in June World War two,

3737
03:25:26,800 --> 03:25:29,320
Speaker 1: because every government basically turns into a giant planning engine.

3738
03:25:30,120 --> 03:25:32,280
Speaker 1: And then you know, some of them go into some

3739
03:25:32,400 --> 03:25:34,040
Speaker 1: of them, you know, essentially stay on in the government

3740
03:25:34,120 --> 03:25:36,560
Speaker 1: doing planning stuff. Beers like goes into corporate world, and

3741
03:25:36,640 --> 03:25:38,760
Speaker 1: the corporations are also you know, they start doing they

3742
03:25:38,760 --> 03:25:42,520
Speaker 1: also start doing this planning stuff, and you know, but

3743
03:25:42,640 --> 03:25:45,840
Speaker 1: Beers is interesting because he he pivots like he pivots

3744
03:25:45,840 --> 03:25:50,560
Speaker 1: in a direction that the world doesn't, which is he

3745
03:25:50,600 --> 03:25:53,480
Speaker 1: pivots towards Okay. The solution to sort of you know,

3746
03:25:53,640 --> 03:25:58,480
Speaker 1: the kind of like decay of these like authoritarian planning systems,

3747
03:25:58,959 --> 03:26:01,000
Speaker 1: whether whether they be like the corporate versions of it

3748
03:26:01,160 --> 03:26:05,920
Speaker 1: or the sort of like state administered like total economic

3749
03:26:06,040 --> 03:26:08,920
Speaker 1: planning from the top down versions, is oh well, okay,

3750
03:26:08,920 --> 03:26:11,560
Speaker 1: we need to have planning from the bottom up and

3751
03:26:12,040 --> 03:26:16,520
Speaker 1: distributed planning. Yeah. Yeah, And he like everyone involved with

3752
03:26:16,600 --> 03:26:19,640
Speaker 1: iverson gets murdered. The only reason Beer survives because he

3753
03:26:19,720 --> 03:26:22,560
Speaker 1: wasn't in the country and it's it's just really interesting,

3754
03:26:22,680 --> 03:26:27,279
Speaker 1: like like it's just kind of not a story. Everybody

3755
03:26:27,400 --> 03:26:30,600
Speaker 1: got murdered, but some of them did and some of

3756
03:26:30,680 --> 03:26:34,840
Speaker 1: them were in exile. Uh, some of them were imprisoned. Yeah,

3757
03:26:34,920 --> 03:26:37,160
Speaker 1: it was, it was, it was, you know, it was

3758
03:26:37,240 --> 03:26:39,840
Speaker 1: not a good time. Beer got out early and he

3759
03:26:39,959 --> 03:26:42,560
Speaker 1: knew things that we're getting we're getting bad, and everybody

3760
03:26:42,600 --> 03:26:45,960
Speaker 1: around him knew things were getting bad. Um. Yeah, like

3761
03:26:46,080 --> 03:26:47,400
Speaker 1: he was on him. He was on like a kind

3762
03:26:47,440 --> 03:26:50,080
Speaker 1: of I guess, like it's almost diplomatic mission to like

3763
03:26:50,200 --> 03:26:52,120
Speaker 1: try and get some of the blockade stuff. Like he

3764
03:26:52,160 --> 03:26:54,000
Speaker 1: was trying to think he was trying to flog like

3765
03:26:54,080 --> 03:26:56,600
Speaker 1: a container ship full of iron or something, you know,

3766
03:26:57,480 --> 03:26:59,440
Speaker 1: shopping shopping it around to try and trying to help

3767
03:26:59,480 --> 03:27:02,960
Speaker 1: out the likely in mine to the world that's what

3768
03:27:03,040 --> 03:27:09,280
Speaker 1: it wants. Yeah, but um yeah, it's um hold on,

3769
03:27:09,360 --> 03:27:12,440
Speaker 1: I had a thought there. Um. And then like after afterwards, um,

3770
03:27:12,760 --> 03:27:14,600
Speaker 1: like Beer spent a fair bit as time like trying

3771
03:27:14,680 --> 03:27:17,000
Speaker 1: to get his his comrades out of out of Chile

3772
03:27:17,200 --> 03:27:19,600
Speaker 1: and get them out of prison and got got them

3773
03:27:19,640 --> 03:27:24,200
Speaker 1: resettled in UM, in the UK and so on, and

3774
03:27:24,600 --> 03:27:29,680
Speaker 1: yeah America as well. UM, but yeah, I think that um,

3775
03:27:32,760 --> 03:27:37,120
Speaker 1: this is like, that's a very interesting point about the

3776
03:27:37,400 --> 03:27:40,360
Speaker 1: the you know, the sort of the real value of

3777
03:27:40,440 --> 03:27:47,960
Speaker 1: this moment being that movement towards autonomy, that that reorganization

3778
03:27:48,400 --> 03:27:56,720
Speaker 1: of society, not towards uh neoliberal engineering of markets and

3779
03:27:57,200 --> 03:28:02,480
Speaker 1: uh sort of reinforcement of private tater ships, um, but

3780
03:28:02,800 --> 03:28:06,320
Speaker 1: towards a kind of like holistic control system that is

3781
03:28:06,360 --> 03:28:10,920
Speaker 1: still informed by you know, the principles of autonomy and

3782
03:28:11,240 --> 03:28:16,200
Speaker 1: UH and and and science. Um. It's it's definitely like

3783
03:28:16,959 --> 03:28:21,240
Speaker 1: an answer to the crisis of the seventies which was

3784
03:28:22,440 --> 03:28:24,880
Speaker 1: not taken up. And in that sense it is a

3785
03:28:24,959 --> 03:28:27,959
Speaker 1: foreclosed future, but of course one that we can take

3786
03:28:28,080 --> 03:28:31,080
Speaker 1: lessons from now. Yeah. I think there's something else that's

3787
03:28:31,200 --> 03:28:34,720
Speaker 1: very interesting me about this, because you know, if if

3788
03:28:34,760 --> 03:28:38,160
Speaker 1: you look at how like if if you look at

3789
03:28:38,200 --> 03:28:41,440
Speaker 1: how the socialist block sort of responds to to the

3790
03:28:41,480 --> 03:28:43,879
Speaker 1: crisis and seventies, and you know, they're sort of decaying

3791
03:28:43,879 --> 03:28:48,840
Speaker 1: the eighties, like they have this option available to them, right,

3792
03:28:48,879 --> 03:28:50,400
Speaker 1: they have they have they have made a lot of ways,

3793
03:28:50,400 --> 03:28:51,879
Speaker 1: they have a lot they have a lot better technology

3794
03:28:51,920 --> 03:28:54,039
Speaker 1: than with the lands are using that have more resources,

3795
03:28:55,240 --> 03:29:00,480
Speaker 1: and every single one of them goes no and instead

3796
03:29:00,640 --> 03:29:03,640
Speaker 1: just sort of like transitions, you know, instead of I

3797
03:29:04,440 --> 03:29:07,320
Speaker 1: think it has to do with there. There there's a

3798
03:29:07,400 --> 03:29:10,200
Speaker 1: line this this is This is like slightly before this,

3799
03:29:10,520 --> 03:29:14,240
Speaker 1: there's a line in um a debate Maw and Joe

3800
03:29:14,320 --> 03:29:16,800
Speaker 1: and Li are having in and I think it's seven.

3801
03:29:16,879 --> 03:29:19,920
Speaker 1: This is like the peak of the sort of workers

3802
03:29:19,959 --> 03:29:21,680
Speaker 1: led part of the culture revolution, like the works have

3803
03:29:21,760 --> 03:29:25,480
Speaker 1: taken Shanghai, and Maw and Joe and I are talking

3804
03:29:25,640 --> 03:29:28,920
Speaker 1: and they're they're trying to figure out, like what are

3805
03:29:28,920 --> 03:29:32,720
Speaker 1: they gonna do? You know, they they set off this force,

3806
03:29:32,840 --> 03:29:37,360
Speaker 1: it's now become uncontrollable. And there's there's this line where

3807
03:29:37,440 --> 03:29:39,480
Speaker 1: they're talking about, Okay, well if if we give if

3808
03:29:39,480 --> 03:29:42,160
Speaker 1: they give them, if you give them a commune, they

3809
03:29:42,200 --> 03:29:45,200
Speaker 1: have to have free elections, and Joe and La is like,

3810
03:29:45,240 --> 03:29:48,160
Speaker 1: well that would be anarchism, and then they're just like,

3811
03:29:48,200 --> 03:29:50,000
Speaker 1: oh god, we can't do that, and they never do

3812
03:29:50,320 --> 03:29:52,120
Speaker 1: in the end, you know, the end result of this

3813
03:29:52,200 --> 03:29:54,000
Speaker 1: whole sort of that whole sort of processes that trying

3814
03:29:54,040 --> 03:29:57,720
Speaker 1: to like instead of doing, instead of sort of like

3815
03:29:59,360 --> 03:30:04,720
Speaker 1: devolving any level of control down to like any of

3816
03:30:04,800 --> 03:30:06,480
Speaker 1: the workers who are doing things, they're like, Okay, well

3817
03:30:06,520 --> 03:30:08,160
Speaker 1: we'll just just we'll just you know, we'll we'll we'll

3818
03:30:08,200 --> 03:30:10,360
Speaker 1: do capitalism instead. Well, well you will, you know, we'll

3819
03:30:10,400 --> 03:30:15,480
Speaker 1: create markets, will sort of like maintain our firm structure.

3820
03:30:15,640 --> 03:30:21,680
Speaker 1: But you know, the countries into it. Yeah, yeah, And

3821
03:30:21,920 --> 03:30:23,880
Speaker 1: it's it's this, it's it's a very interesting thing to

3822
03:30:23,959 --> 03:30:27,720
Speaker 1: me too, because like there have been other like you know,

3823
03:30:27,879 --> 03:30:30,320
Speaker 1: like they're like lots of socialist parties have sort of

3824
03:30:30,480 --> 03:30:34,800
Speaker 1: various like degrees of radicalness have come to power like

3825
03:30:35,520 --> 03:30:39,320
Speaker 1: since nineteen seventy three, and to my knowledge, not a

3826
03:30:39,400 --> 03:30:41,160
Speaker 1: single one of them has ever picked any of this

3827
03:30:41,200 --> 03:30:43,840
Speaker 1: stuff back up, like even even you know, like like

3828
03:30:43,920 --> 03:30:47,320
Speaker 1: the most radical sort of like like you know, like

3829
03:30:47,680 --> 03:30:50,560
Speaker 1: like like early Chavas never like touches this like even

3830
03:30:51,400 --> 03:30:56,160
Speaker 1: like I don't like I don't I don't think like

3831
03:30:56,200 --> 03:30:58,200
Speaker 1: I don't think the easy Lends ever done it, Like

3832
03:30:58,280 --> 03:31:00,600
Speaker 1: I mean, they have fetological issue is there, but like

3833
03:31:01,440 --> 03:31:05,520
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's interesting to me that like basically

3834
03:31:05,879 --> 03:31:09,800
Speaker 1: no one who's ever taken power since has ever attempted

3835
03:31:09,840 --> 03:31:13,720
Speaker 1: it again. M h. Which get is changed because this

3836
03:31:13,920 --> 03:31:16,680
Speaker 1: is you know, one of one of the sort of

3837
03:31:17,040 --> 03:31:19,480
Speaker 1: like this, you would think this is like this is

3838
03:31:19,560 --> 03:31:24,480
Speaker 1: at least a potential solution to sort of this this

3839
03:31:24,680 --> 03:31:27,560
Speaker 1: this this problem of the stagnation and sort of collapse

3840
03:31:27,640 --> 03:31:30,400
Speaker 1: of the old sort of bultis there's a plenty of economies,

3841
03:31:30,560 --> 03:31:33,720
Speaker 1: but no one takes it up. But I'm interested to

3842
03:31:33,720 --> 03:31:36,320
Speaker 1: think what you too think about that, like why this

3843
03:31:36,480 --> 03:31:40,080
Speaker 1: doesn't happen. Yeah, there's a I think there's an interesting

3844
03:31:40,160 --> 03:31:43,200
Speaker 1: dimension of Beer's work in Chile that kind of I

3845
03:31:43,320 --> 03:31:48,760
Speaker 1: think um might provide some answers to that, which is

3846
03:31:48,840 --> 03:31:52,440
Speaker 1: that you know, he he was in charge of setting

3847
03:31:52,520 --> 03:32:00,160
Speaker 1: up Cyberson and Cyberson was kind of a system are

3848
03:32:00,520 --> 03:32:08,360
Speaker 1: optimizing the economy, but he had other concerns and other

3849
03:32:08,560 --> 03:32:11,480
Speaker 1: briefs that he was working on at the same time.

3850
03:32:11,720 --> 03:32:17,640
Speaker 1: And what he came to realize was that there was

3851
03:32:17,840 --> 03:32:25,280
Speaker 1: a layer of management and experts in the organization of

3852
03:32:25,400 --> 03:32:30,560
Speaker 1: the economy that were happy enough to sort of work

3853
03:32:31,040 --> 03:32:37,000
Speaker 1: on a cyber sin that was designed to improve production numbers,

3854
03:32:37,879 --> 03:32:43,320
Speaker 1: but they had real resistance to the idea of worker

3855
03:32:43,400 --> 03:32:51,160
Speaker 1: autonomy because of the because of wanting to maintain their

3856
03:32:51,360 --> 03:32:55,959
Speaker 1: their job privileges, and because of the prejudices of their

3857
03:32:57,040 --> 03:32:59,400
Speaker 1: their habitats. I guess you could say that what they

3858
03:32:59,520 --> 03:33:03,000
Speaker 1: learned when they were educated as engineers or managers or whatever.

3859
03:33:03,160 --> 03:33:05,480
Speaker 1: And you know, where the people who know things, the

3860
03:33:05,560 --> 03:33:08,840
Speaker 1: workers don't know things, they shouldn't be in charge that

3861
03:33:09,000 --> 03:33:12,880
Speaker 1: kind of thing. And so he starts to he starts

3862
03:33:12,959 --> 03:33:18,040
Speaker 1: to realize that in order to really make cybersen effective

3863
03:33:18,240 --> 03:33:21,800
Speaker 1: as an engine for autonomy, what needs to happen is

3864
03:33:21,959 --> 03:33:24,920
Speaker 1: that um, sort of what you are describing with the

3865
03:33:25,000 --> 03:33:33,280
Speaker 1: Shanghai commune, Uh, the the workers need to learn the

3866
03:33:33,480 --> 03:33:42,879
Speaker 1: cybernetic principles themselves and implement them through autonomous action. UM.

3867
03:33:43,000 --> 03:33:44,840
Speaker 1: And so he starts to try to kind of like

3868
03:33:45,400 --> 03:33:49,480
Speaker 1: right up, like right pamphlets that can be distributed to

3869
03:33:49,560 --> 03:33:54,560
Speaker 1: the workers so that the information that he has as

3870
03:33:54,720 --> 03:34:00,959
Speaker 1: theory is not being filtered through a bureaucracy, but is instead,

3871
03:34:01,160 --> 03:34:05,520
Speaker 1: like you know, involved in an educational process of self

3872
03:34:05,640 --> 03:34:10,280
Speaker 1: mode of mobilization among the workers. UM. And so you

3873
03:34:10,360 --> 03:34:16,240
Speaker 1: know this really UH doesn't mean that expert knowledge is irrelevant,

3874
03:34:16,320 --> 03:34:21,520
Speaker 1: but it does mean that it does imply threatening the

3875
03:34:22,680 --> 03:34:28,640
Speaker 1: social privileges of management and expert knowledge, because in Beer's

3876
03:34:28,680 --> 03:34:33,720
Speaker 1: conception of management, management is something that is done by

3877
03:34:33,879 --> 03:34:39,080
Speaker 1: anyone who has the power to affect an organization or

3878
03:34:39,280 --> 03:34:42,520
Speaker 1: change in organization. So if the workers are able to

3879
03:34:42,680 --> 03:34:46,959
Speaker 1: change their organizations, they are also managers. That's not something

3880
03:34:47,080 --> 03:34:51,920
Speaker 1: exclusive to experts t Beer management as a function. It's

3881
03:34:51,920 --> 03:34:56,320
Speaker 1: not a person. In Beer's ideal worlds, like management would

3882
03:34:56,360 --> 03:35:00,879
Speaker 1: just be these like decision nodes that emerge among among workers.

3883
03:35:00,959 --> 03:35:04,000
Speaker 1: I can like the management manager would never be a person.

3884
03:35:04,600 --> 03:35:07,760
Speaker 1: A manager would be like a kind of structural information

3885
03:35:07,879 --> 03:35:13,880
Speaker 1: processing like, um, thing that happens among people. Um. Yeah,

3886
03:35:14,240 --> 03:35:18,200
Speaker 1: and so like when you see in for example, the

3887
03:35:18,320 --> 03:35:23,880
Speaker 1: uss are the option of creating a planning network, a

3888
03:35:23,959 --> 03:35:32,480
Speaker 1: computerized telecommunications planning network throughout the whole union. Um, it's

3889
03:35:32,560 --> 03:35:37,080
Speaker 1: basically shot down for two reasons. One, it would be

3890
03:35:37,320 --> 03:35:39,720
Speaker 1: very very expensive for them to develop. It would be

3891
03:35:40,480 --> 03:35:44,400
Speaker 1: on the order of of doing, you know, their nuclear

3892
03:35:44,480 --> 03:35:50,600
Speaker 1: weapons development, perhaps more expensive than that. Uh. And Two

3893
03:35:51,600 --> 03:35:59,320
Speaker 1: it is simply at odds with the system of like

3894
03:35:59,640 --> 03:36:04,360
Speaker 1: playing the command economy that had that had grown up

3895
03:36:04,480 --> 03:36:08,760
Speaker 1: in the wake of the revolution. Right, It's simply at

3896
03:36:08,800 --> 03:36:12,360
Speaker 1: odds with the power of all of the factory managers,

3897
03:36:12,480 --> 03:36:15,480
Speaker 1: the planners, all that kind of stuff. It just kind

3898
03:36:15,560 --> 03:36:19,440
Speaker 1: of makes. It threatens their identity and it threatens their

3899
03:36:19,480 --> 03:36:24,120
Speaker 1: position of power. And so I think that when you

3900
03:36:24,200 --> 03:36:27,240
Speaker 1: look at the socialist countries and why they didn't adopt

3901
03:36:27,320 --> 03:36:30,920
Speaker 1: this system, I think it's because they it would require

3902
03:36:31,000 --> 03:36:36,959
Speaker 1: the people in power to really rethink their entire role

3903
03:36:37,200 --> 03:36:43,200
Speaker 1: and identity as members of society. Um. Yeah, And then

3904
03:36:43,840 --> 03:36:46,280
Speaker 1: it's kind of there's dreadful irony really and that like

3905
03:36:46,959 --> 03:36:49,480
Speaker 1: it's it's stafford me or somebody who comes out of

3906
03:36:49,720 --> 03:36:53,720
Speaker 1: like bourgeois like management stuff and is deep in the

3907
03:36:53,760 --> 03:36:58,080
Speaker 1: pocket for that he's the one who actually sincerely pursues

3908
03:36:58,400 --> 03:37:02,280
Speaker 1: the most radical projects in like socialist history that we've

3909
03:37:02,320 --> 03:37:05,480
Speaker 1: ever seen, vastly more radical in its intent, and it's

3910
03:37:05,520 --> 03:37:07,680
Speaker 1: like kind of it's the beginnings of its impact than

3911
03:37:07,720 --> 03:37:10,680
Speaker 1: anything any Leninist has ever done. And it's basically because

3912
03:37:10,760 --> 03:37:15,800
Speaker 1: he actually did want real freedom and autonomy for working people,

3913
03:37:16,240 --> 03:37:19,039
Speaker 1: and your average lendiness just doesn't, you know, Like again,

3914
03:37:19,120 --> 03:37:20,760
Speaker 1: like to go back to the example from earlier, right

3915
03:37:20,800 --> 03:37:24,440
Speaker 1: that like when when under pressure, they will they'll do

3916
03:37:24,680 --> 03:37:29,480
Speaker 1: capitalism before they'll do anything that even resembles um autonomy

3917
03:37:29,520 --> 03:37:32,600
Speaker 1: for workers. They'll take that path rather than doing the

3918
03:37:32,760 --> 03:37:35,320
Speaker 1: right thing, you know, that does speak to the character

3919
03:37:35,360 --> 03:37:37,360
Speaker 1: of the thing, and it's it's it's it's it's it's

3920
03:37:37,400 --> 03:37:40,640
Speaker 1: that class interest basically off those kind of functionaries, right like.

3921
03:37:40,720 --> 03:37:42,600
Speaker 1: And the thing that makes Beery different is that he

3922
03:37:42,680 --> 03:37:45,520
Speaker 1: sincerely actually wanted to do it, you know. And the

3923
03:37:46,200 --> 03:37:48,760
Speaker 1: worker's autonomy thing wasn't just a smoke screen for him,

3924
03:37:49,000 --> 03:37:51,200
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah. And when when he starts to come

3925
03:37:51,280 --> 03:37:53,960
Speaker 1: up with these ideas of like thinking like, okay, like

3926
03:37:54,120 --> 03:37:58,000
Speaker 1: an economic planning system is not adequate, we need to

3927
03:37:58,080 --> 03:38:01,280
Speaker 1: go beyond that to thinking of out the constitution of

3928
03:38:01,360 --> 03:38:06,200
Speaker 1: the social body, he he quickly finds that he's being

3929
03:38:06,360 --> 03:38:12,560
Speaker 1: marginalized within those circles of planners in the Chilean government

3930
03:38:12,720 --> 03:38:17,760
Speaker 1: because this is not something that they are enthusiastic about.

3931
03:38:18,200 --> 03:38:21,640
Speaker 1: They're actually quite concerned about this idea. Even if I

3932
03:38:21,840 --> 03:38:24,480
Speaker 1: end a would be you know, all for it, right

3933
03:38:24,560 --> 03:38:28,480
Speaker 1: because he was he was very sincere about his interest

3934
03:38:28,720 --> 03:38:33,320
Speaker 1: in an autonomy. UM, there were still many people around

3935
03:38:33,400 --> 03:38:38,560
Speaker 1: Beer who did not particularly like the idea. UM. Yeah, absolutely,

3936
03:38:39,360 --> 03:38:41,880
Speaker 1: And I think if we look at it, you know,

3937
03:38:42,200 --> 03:38:46,200
Speaker 1: in terms of why hasn't it happened since then in

3938
03:38:46,600 --> 03:38:50,040
Speaker 1: in all of these intervening decades, I think you also

3939
03:38:50,160 --> 03:38:57,040
Speaker 1: have to look at, um, the international system and the

3940
03:38:57,160 --> 03:39:01,360
Speaker 1: way that countries figure into it, because we have all

3941
03:39:01,480 --> 03:39:06,920
Speaker 1: of these um, neoliberal structures of management and organization that

3942
03:39:07,040 --> 03:39:11,080
Speaker 1: were created in the eighties and nineties and early odds

3943
03:39:11,840 --> 03:39:17,440
Speaker 1: UH that a socialist government has to contend with if

3944
03:39:17,600 --> 03:39:22,080
Speaker 1: they are to embark on a program like this, which

3945
03:39:22,200 --> 03:39:25,240
Speaker 1: isn't to say it's impossible, but what it does mean

3946
03:39:25,600 --> 03:39:30,440
Speaker 1: is that there are all these sort of um, highly

3947
03:39:30,680 --> 03:39:37,400
Speaker 1: complex regulatory and organizational structures that have roots deep in

3948
03:39:37,520 --> 03:39:42,480
Speaker 1: our societies right now, and it is the path of

3949
03:39:42,680 --> 03:39:46,960
Speaker 1: least resistance to not attempt to engage in a in

3950
03:39:47,240 --> 03:39:52,040
Speaker 1: in uh an effort to kind of, you know, let

3951
03:39:52,200 --> 03:39:56,280
Speaker 1: the market atrophy as you develop an alternative structure for

3952
03:39:56,400 --> 03:40:00,720
Speaker 1: social organization UM, because all of these structures are there

3953
03:40:00,800 --> 03:40:03,039
Speaker 1: and you have to kind of like route them out

3954
03:40:03,600 --> 03:40:07,240
Speaker 1: and replace them with something new, as opposed to having

3955
03:40:07,320 --> 03:40:12,160
Speaker 1: all these ready mades of what's already there, the market

3956
03:40:12,879 --> 03:40:18,800
Speaker 1: centered solutions, the the the kind of autocratic solutions, UM.

3957
03:40:19,480 --> 03:40:22,560
Speaker 1: You know, all of the management systems that have been

3958
03:40:22,720 --> 03:40:26,600
Speaker 1: developed with an autocracy in mind instead of something that

3959
03:40:26,800 --> 03:40:30,680
Speaker 1: is truly democratic and uh kind of self just dating

3960
03:40:31,280 --> 03:40:33,880
Speaker 1: mm hmm. And I think as well. And there's there's

3961
03:40:33,879 --> 03:40:38,520
Speaker 1: a kind of other thing that like, um, like the

3962
03:40:39,160 --> 03:40:41,800
Speaker 1: left has been kind of in a very weak position

3963
03:40:41,840 --> 03:40:44,760
Speaker 1: for quite a while now, like since then, since the seventies, right,

3964
03:40:44,760 --> 03:40:50,640
Speaker 1: and like, um, yes, like we we're just we're just

3965
03:40:50,720 --> 03:40:54,440
Speaker 1: starting to come around to maybe being on possibly an upswing.

3966
03:40:55,040 --> 03:40:57,120
Speaker 1: But also like I think there was this kind of

3967
03:40:57,200 --> 03:40:59,600
Speaker 1: long depressive phase at the end of them, at the

3968
03:40:59,640 --> 03:41:03,200
Speaker 1: crossing the centuries, right, where a lot of like leftist

3969
03:41:03,280 --> 03:41:05,520
Speaker 1: kind of and this this this actually gets into like

3970
03:41:05,600 --> 03:41:08,280
Speaker 1: why some of the reasons why we started a general

3971
03:41:08,320 --> 03:41:10,840
Speaker 1: intolact unit that like we felt like we needed to

3972
03:41:10,879 --> 03:41:14,360
Speaker 1: bring this kind of like systems thinking and like technical

3973
03:41:14,440 --> 03:41:17,959
Speaker 1: seriousness back to the table after the kind of weird

3974
03:41:18,040 --> 03:41:20,920
Speaker 1: depressive phases where like you know, like say the alter

3975
03:41:21,000 --> 03:41:24,760
Speaker 1: globalization stuff for the occupy stuff, where people kind of

3976
03:41:24,800 --> 03:41:28,000
Speaker 1: take an almost explicitly anti strategic kind of turn and

3977
03:41:28,160 --> 03:41:30,760
Speaker 1: like a kind of anti technical turn. You know, there's

3978
03:41:30,800 --> 03:41:33,520
Speaker 1: that kind of depressive hangover of like oh my god,

3979
03:41:33,600 --> 03:41:36,720
Speaker 1: like capital and it's it's it's technology, is is hegemonic?

3980
03:41:36,840 --> 03:41:38,040
Speaker 1: Like how the fund are we ever going to get

3981
03:41:38,040 --> 03:41:40,080
Speaker 1: out of this? Like it would have been heard to

3982
03:41:40,840 --> 03:41:45,160
Speaker 1: make an argument for a scientific and like technical kind

3983
03:41:45,200 --> 03:41:49,840
Speaker 1: of fusion with with the humanist kind of impulses of socialism.

3984
03:41:50,240 --> 03:41:53,080
Speaker 1: But that's I think we're getting to a point where

3985
03:41:53,080 --> 03:41:55,680
Speaker 1: we can start actually having that conversation again, Like we're

3986
03:41:55,760 --> 03:41:58,160
Speaker 1: we're seeing a bit more of a turn towards that,

3987
03:41:58,240 --> 03:41:59,560
Speaker 1: and it kind of turn towards like this kind of

3988
03:41:59,600 --> 03:42:02,880
Speaker 1: serious kind of like more and more serious kind of

3989
03:42:02,920 --> 03:42:06,040
Speaker 1: discussion of like hey, like okay, like okay, like we

3990
03:42:06,120 --> 03:42:08,640
Speaker 1: we we we fucking hate the current order of things.

3991
03:42:09,080 --> 03:42:10,480
Speaker 1: We want to we want to see it gotten rid

3992
03:42:10,520 --> 03:42:13,640
Speaker 1: of what would we actually replace it with, like functionally,

3993
03:42:13,680 --> 03:42:15,400
Speaker 1: how would things actually work? Like I think those kind

3994
03:42:15,440 --> 03:42:17,080
Speaker 1: of conversations are coming back on the table in a

3995
03:42:17,160 --> 03:42:19,960
Speaker 1: way that those were just impossible in the nineties, like

3996
03:42:20,040 --> 03:42:23,039
Speaker 1: after the Berlin Wall came down or whatever. They were

3997
03:42:23,080 --> 03:42:25,200
Speaker 1: impossible a couple of years ago. You know, Yeah, the

3998
03:42:25,240 --> 03:42:32,200
Speaker 1: the market as the fundament of society basically seemed to

3999
03:42:32,360 --> 03:42:38,000
Speaker 1: be invincible at that time. Um, and there was a

4000
03:42:38,120 --> 03:42:45,640
Speaker 1: lot of just sort of wrongheaded assumptions about what was

4001
03:42:45,760 --> 03:42:50,000
Speaker 1: and wasn't true about it and about society as a whole.

4002
03:42:50,360 --> 03:42:53,120
Speaker 1: And you know, we've had a lot of chaos in

4003
03:42:53,240 --> 03:42:59,120
Speaker 1: the years since then. That was um that affected not

4004
03:42:59,360 --> 03:43:04,160
Speaker 1: just the countries that we were you know, being restructured

4005
03:43:04,240 --> 03:43:08,720
Speaker 1: by the I m F, but actually came in affected

4006
03:43:08,840 --> 03:43:12,560
Speaker 1: the core of the world economy as well. Uh. And

4007
03:43:12,720 --> 03:43:15,920
Speaker 1: I think that that that's sort of like, you know,

4008
03:43:16,000 --> 03:43:18,160
Speaker 1: in the same way that World War One kind of

4009
03:43:18,320 --> 03:43:22,959
Speaker 1: disproved the idea of the white man's invincibility and superiority,

4010
03:43:23,520 --> 03:43:28,920
Speaker 1: like having those like market chaos dynamics come home to

4011
03:43:29,080 --> 03:43:33,080
Speaker 1: roost in the core of the world system has has

4012
03:43:33,320 --> 03:43:37,160
Speaker 1: undermined that invincibility. That that that idea that oh, the

4013
03:43:37,240 --> 03:43:39,680
Speaker 1: market is just naturally the best and there's nothing that

4014
03:43:39,720 --> 03:43:42,280
Speaker 1: could possibly be better. At the same time that we

4015
03:43:42,400 --> 03:43:46,640
Speaker 1: have all of this technological development that's happening, um, you

4016
03:43:46,720 --> 03:43:50,440
Speaker 1: know in our economy that could be used for something

4017
03:43:50,800 --> 03:43:53,119
Speaker 1: different as opposed to you know, I don't know, making

4018
03:43:53,240 --> 03:43:56,280
Speaker 1: n F T s or something. Yeah, absolutely right, that

4019
03:43:56,360 --> 03:43:58,600
Speaker 1: that's all super important. I think that that kind of refines,

4020
03:43:58,720 --> 03:44:01,000
Speaker 1: like it might might be his thought is refining in

4021
03:44:01,040 --> 03:44:04,840
Speaker 1: my head now like that like right now, Um, that

4022
03:44:05,120 --> 03:44:07,160
Speaker 1: that kind of market chaos and especially even like the

4023
03:44:07,440 --> 03:44:11,120
Speaker 1: chaos of like the system's response to COVID and stuff,

4024
03:44:11,840 --> 03:44:15,560
Speaker 1: really puts um like in general and for the left

4025
03:44:15,600 --> 03:44:17,760
Speaker 1: in particular. It puts like the question of governance back

4026
03:44:17,800 --> 03:44:19,200
Speaker 1: on the table in a way that it had kind

4027
03:44:19,200 --> 03:44:20,840
Speaker 1: of been off the table for a while. Like I

4028
03:44:20,879 --> 03:44:22,560
Speaker 1: think there was there was a period on the left

4029
03:44:22,600 --> 03:44:27,199
Speaker 1: where like left activity was kind of like railing against governance.

4030
03:44:27,320 --> 03:44:29,800
Speaker 1: Like it was like we we want freedom from governance

4031
03:44:29,800 --> 03:44:31,400
Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. Right, And I'm not going

4032
03:44:31,440 --> 03:44:33,600
Speaker 1: to say those are necessarily bad impulses, right, but I

4033
03:44:33,640 --> 03:44:36,000
Speaker 1: think they're also kind of a bit wrong headed as well. Right,

4034
03:44:36,080 --> 03:44:39,720
Speaker 1: But like the kind of reality is that, like, for

4035
03:44:39,879 --> 03:44:42,080
Speaker 1: for human life to flourish, and for our lives to flourish,

4036
03:44:42,120 --> 03:44:45,320
Speaker 1: we need governance. And like because like governance actually like

4037
03:44:45,440 --> 03:44:47,920
Speaker 1: as a word has the same route as cybernetics does.

4038
03:44:48,280 --> 03:44:53,280
Speaker 1: So kaibernetes, the Greek word becomes kubernettes, becomes cybernetics. Right,

4039
03:44:53,800 --> 03:44:57,720
Speaker 1: but that's also the root of governor, so kuberner, kubernator,

4040
03:44:58,400 --> 03:45:00,160
Speaker 1: those are the roots of governance. So government and some

4041
03:45:00,240 --> 03:45:02,920
Speaker 1: cybernetics are one and the same kind of concept. Um

4042
03:45:03,720 --> 03:45:06,840
Speaker 1: And this question of like if we intend to create

4043
03:45:06,879 --> 03:45:10,480
Speaker 1: a world of self governance, um that is effective, it's viable.

4044
03:45:10,600 --> 03:45:14,680
Speaker 1: In Beer's terminology, like viable self governance, that what we're

4045
03:45:14,720 --> 03:45:20,000
Speaker 1: proposing is opposed to the chaotic vortex of nonsense that

4046
03:45:20,080 --> 03:45:22,440
Speaker 1: we have to put up with right now. And that's

4047
03:45:22,440 --> 03:45:24,240
Speaker 1: back on the table in a big way. That like,

4048
03:45:24,560 --> 03:45:26,640
Speaker 1: because I think especially with with COVID, people look at

4049
03:45:26,720 --> 03:45:31,160
Speaker 1: like just the sheer idiocy and ineptitude and chaos of

4050
03:45:31,760 --> 03:45:36,640
Speaker 1: our governments and realizing like, oh, those are decrepit completely

4051
03:45:36,640 --> 03:45:39,840
Speaker 1: screwed up systems and in parat because their goal is

4052
03:45:40,160 --> 03:45:43,360
Speaker 1: the maintenance of capital accumulation. So this gets us back

4053
03:45:43,360 --> 03:45:46,040
Speaker 1: to the goal directed behavior of cybernetics, right, Like the

4054
03:45:46,120 --> 03:45:49,920
Speaker 1: steersman steers the boat towards a goal, right, and it's

4055
03:45:49,959 --> 03:45:51,880
Speaker 1: it's always about or like a you know, a cybernetic

4056
03:45:51,959 --> 03:45:54,760
Speaker 1: device like a thermostat has a goal temperature that is

4057
03:45:54,800 --> 03:45:58,200
Speaker 1: trying to regulate the temperature of the water towards um

4058
03:45:58,800 --> 03:46:02,680
Speaker 1: You know, we have these vernance systems that are completely awful.

4059
03:46:02,760 --> 03:46:05,880
Speaker 1: They're just like not suitable for like the regulation of

4060
03:46:05,959 --> 03:46:10,119
Speaker 1: human life, for flourishing. They're only suitable for the regulation

4061
03:46:10,160 --> 03:46:13,760
Speaker 1: of this insane system that just keeps capital accumulation going,

4062
03:46:14,040 --> 03:46:17,600
Speaker 1: like that's the control variable that it regulates. And we're

4063
03:46:17,640 --> 03:46:19,400
Speaker 1: now in a position. We're on the left, Like more

4064
03:46:19,440 --> 03:46:21,760
Speaker 1: and more of us are saying, like what we're proposing

4065
03:46:21,879 --> 03:46:24,520
Speaker 1: is not like a sort of magical escape from governance.

4066
03:46:24,560 --> 03:46:28,720
Speaker 1: We're proposing, really, you know, we should have sane governance.

4067
03:46:29,080 --> 03:46:31,280
Speaker 1: And it turns out that same governance is bottom up

4068
03:46:31,320 --> 03:46:35,440
Speaker 1: self organized governance. Um. And that's that's both the moral

4069
03:46:35,520 --> 03:46:38,200
Speaker 1: position and a technical position, and I think they're both

4070
03:46:38,240 --> 03:46:42,400
Speaker 1: of those. The moral and technical valences feed off each other.

4071
03:46:42,600 --> 03:46:45,320
Speaker 1: Like we're we're we're able to be the serious people

4072
03:46:45,360 --> 03:46:47,320
Speaker 1: in the room. This this is a very big change

4073
03:46:47,360 --> 03:46:49,760
Speaker 1: of pace, right for us, because like for a while

4074
03:46:49,840 --> 03:46:52,240
Speaker 1: we were railing against like the very serious people of

4075
03:46:52,360 --> 03:46:54,360
Speaker 1: like the Centrists and like the fucking Blair rights and

4076
03:46:54,440 --> 03:46:57,640
Speaker 1: the Clintonite sort of people. We're the serious people now

4077
03:46:58,280 --> 03:47:01,960
Speaker 1: saying why what this what this system actually does is

4078
03:47:02,000 --> 03:47:05,480
Speaker 1: absurd and ludicrous, and it needs to be dismantled and

4079
03:47:05,640 --> 03:47:10,160
Speaker 1: rebuilt with a totally different like feedback circuits, a different

4080
03:47:10,200 --> 03:47:13,840
Speaker 1: kind of goal orientation, um. And it needs to be

4081
03:47:13,920 --> 03:47:18,120
Speaker 1: oriented towards human flourishing. And that's it turns out there's

4082
03:47:18,120 --> 03:47:20,760
Speaker 1: a science of doing that, and it's called cybernetics, you know. Well,

4083
03:47:20,920 --> 03:47:25,360
Speaker 1: and we also have a runaway ecological crisis where we

4084
03:47:25,520 --> 03:47:34,039
Speaker 1: learn about we see that you know, like the capitalist

4085
03:47:34,120 --> 03:47:39,600
Speaker 1: market system is absolutely leading us all to death and

4086
03:47:39,720 --> 03:47:44,199
Speaker 1: the earth to death, and so it is human flourishing,

4087
03:47:44,320 --> 03:47:47,720
Speaker 1: but we also are concerned with the flourishing of life

4088
03:47:47,800 --> 03:47:51,600
Speaker 1: in general. Right, Um, So I think that that that

4089
03:47:51,840 --> 03:47:56,200
Speaker 1: is something that wasn't as much on the horizon in

4090
03:47:56,320 --> 03:47:59,600
Speaker 1: the seventies. You know, I certainly think you know, people

4091
03:47:59,680 --> 03:48:03,800
Speaker 1: worth thinking about it. But breaking down this barrier between

4092
03:48:03,959 --> 03:48:09,760
Speaker 1: economics uh and uh and ecology, I think is a

4093
03:48:09,920 --> 03:48:12,960
Speaker 1: very cybernetic impulse. And I think one then, you know,

4094
03:48:13,080 --> 03:48:16,680
Speaker 1: we need to keep working at because like you know,

4095
03:48:16,760 --> 03:48:19,680
Speaker 1: whenever we think about these things as separate domains, were

4096
03:48:19,760 --> 03:48:29,199
Speaker 1: already uh, we're already engendering more destruction of the environment. Yeah. Yeah,

4097
03:48:29,560 --> 03:48:31,879
Speaker 1: I think cybernetics will also help us in that kind

4098
03:48:31,879 --> 03:48:35,400
Speaker 1: of link um on a kind of for left projects,

4099
03:48:35,440 --> 03:48:38,400
Speaker 1: like on an aggressive footing of like if we recognize

4100
03:48:38,440 --> 03:48:41,160
Speaker 1: that like the capital and its kind of government system

4101
03:48:41,840 --> 03:48:44,560
Speaker 1: is it is cybernetic, Like it has its own feedback

4102
03:48:44,560 --> 03:48:48,160
Speaker 1: circuits and like saying that the explosive feedback circuit that

4103
03:48:48,200 --> 03:48:50,280
Speaker 1: we're on with with ecology, right, Like, how do you

4104
03:48:50,400 --> 03:48:53,680
Speaker 1: intervene in a system to halt and disrupt those circuits

4105
03:48:53,720 --> 03:48:56,840
Speaker 1: so as to so as to disintegrate the system. Is

4106
03:48:57,000 --> 03:48:58,680
Speaker 1: um is something like you can you can learn a

4107
03:48:58,720 --> 03:49:00,720
Speaker 1: lot from cyber NICs to to lessons and how to

4108
03:49:01,520 --> 03:49:04,280
Speaker 1: intervene there. The last thing I want to talk about

4109
03:49:05,040 --> 03:49:10,120
Speaker 1: is just what is the society that is non capitalist

4110
03:49:10,200 --> 03:49:12,920
Speaker 1: and based off of sort of cybernetic governance principles. What

4111
03:49:13,000 --> 03:49:16,960
Speaker 1: does that look like for just a person? Because I

4112
03:49:17,040 --> 03:49:18,680
Speaker 1: think you know this, this is in one of the

4113
03:49:18,800 --> 03:49:24,240
Speaker 1: big sort of like political challenges of the last you know,

4114
03:49:24,320 --> 03:49:26,720
Speaker 1: fifty years. It's just the complete foreclosure of the ability

4115
03:49:26,760 --> 03:49:32,320
Speaker 1: to even just sort of imagine assistant that's not this mhmm, yeah,

4116
03:49:32,680 --> 03:49:39,840
Speaker 1: I think it. It means UM In the first instance,

4117
03:49:39,960 --> 03:49:49,120
Speaker 1: it means a different orientation to your workplace and your community, right,

4118
03:49:49,440 --> 03:49:57,120
Speaker 1: because when you grow up in a society where UM

4119
03:49:58,040 --> 03:50:03,400
Speaker 1: power is exercise as autocratically, it has an infantilizing effect

4120
03:50:03,520 --> 03:50:08,520
Speaker 1: on on you as an individual UM and uh, you know,

4121
03:50:08,720 --> 03:50:14,640
Speaker 1: maybe your relationship to work is your workplace is one

4122
03:50:14,920 --> 03:50:20,040
Speaker 1: of sort of emotional detachment or of tantrum throwing, right,

4123
03:50:20,200 --> 03:50:23,880
Speaker 1: because these are these are reactions, These are natural reactions

4124
03:50:23,960 --> 03:50:29,560
Speaker 1: to being in an abusive environment. Um. But if you

4125
03:50:31,560 --> 03:50:39,200
Speaker 1: are in a system where the work of management is

4126
03:50:39,440 --> 03:50:43,480
Speaker 1: not only open to you but expected of you, you

4127
03:50:43,640 --> 03:50:47,720
Speaker 1: have a different orientation to that workplace, to the community

4128
03:50:47,800 --> 03:50:52,280
Speaker 1: you're in because it's your responsibility. If you don't do it,

4129
03:50:53,800 --> 03:50:58,240
Speaker 1: you know, you're going to lose your autonomy and also

4130
03:50:58,560 --> 03:51:00,760
Speaker 1: you're going to have real problem ms that you have

4131
03:51:00,880 --> 03:51:03,680
Speaker 1: to grapple with as an individual. So there is a

4132
03:51:03,760 --> 03:51:08,200
Speaker 1: responsibility that comes there. But also like that means an

4133
03:51:08,280 --> 03:51:12,440
Speaker 1: opening up of horizons in terms of well, things don't

4134
03:51:12,440 --> 03:51:14,760
Speaker 1: always have to be the same. Things don't always have

4135
03:51:14,880 --> 03:51:17,480
Speaker 1: to be handed down to you for management on high.

4136
03:51:18,360 --> 03:51:23,440
Speaker 1: They can actually change. Like you can see the possibilities

4137
03:51:23,480 --> 03:51:25,760
Speaker 1: in front of you, you can plan for the future

4138
03:51:25,920 --> 03:51:30,360
Speaker 1: in your context, and you can have that meaningful freedom

4139
03:51:30,480 --> 03:51:33,680
Speaker 1: in your life and be you know, a a full

4140
03:51:33,960 --> 03:51:38,400
Speaker 1: human being in that sense, right, um. And so I

4141
03:51:38,520 --> 03:51:43,360
Speaker 1: think that that's a very core every day change that

4142
03:51:43,600 --> 03:51:48,360
Speaker 1: you could see, um, in terms of you know, sort

4143
03:51:48,400 --> 03:51:52,120
Speaker 1: of your horizons of where you might work or what

4144
03:51:52,320 --> 03:51:55,560
Speaker 1: you might do. You know, you could expect that there

4145
03:51:55,640 --> 03:52:01,080
Speaker 1: would be more possibilities for each person and to be

4146
03:52:01,400 --> 03:52:05,800
Speaker 1: like quote unquote entrepreneurial right to to have initiative in

4147
03:52:05,920 --> 03:52:09,880
Speaker 1: their life and be able to envision and create things

4148
03:52:09,960 --> 03:52:14,600
Speaker 1: around them that uh, you know, they can't do right

4149
03:52:14,680 --> 03:52:18,800
Speaker 1: now because they either are stuck in a job that

4150
03:52:19,040 --> 03:52:23,920
Speaker 1: doesn't give them that freedom, or they are actually not

4151
03:52:24,120 --> 03:52:27,400
Speaker 1: even able to have a job right now where they

4152
03:52:27,440 --> 03:52:32,440
Speaker 1: can have a reasonable expectation of survival because their workplace

4153
03:52:32,760 --> 03:52:37,560
Speaker 1: is oriented around just making sure the work gets done

4154
03:52:37,960 --> 03:52:42,320
Speaker 1: and you know, the consequences be damned. Um So I

4155
03:52:42,440 --> 03:52:46,920
Speaker 1: think that you know, that is another area that's important.

4156
03:52:47,560 --> 03:52:55,040
Speaker 1: Um And that sort of freedom of management um extends

4157
03:52:55,080 --> 03:52:59,040
Speaker 1: all the way up to uh, you know, working in

4158
03:52:59,360 --> 03:53:02,560
Speaker 1: different minds of capacities or jobs. Like some people in

4159
03:53:02,680 --> 03:53:06,480
Speaker 1: kind of a middle middle ranking area in a corporation

4160
03:53:06,600 --> 03:53:09,720
Speaker 1: these days might get shuffled around from department to department

4161
03:53:10,240 --> 03:53:14,240
Speaker 1: to try to kind of get a well rounded understanding

4162
03:53:14,880 --> 03:53:19,600
Speaker 1: of what the corporation is, uh and how it functions.

4163
03:53:20,200 --> 03:53:23,760
Speaker 1: But you know, we can kind of expect that these

4164
03:53:24,000 --> 03:53:30,440
Speaker 1: roles would be more open to everybody because again, you know,

4165
03:53:30,600 --> 03:53:33,320
Speaker 1: a system in the v s M is not a person.

4166
03:53:34,400 --> 03:53:37,240
Speaker 1: A system is a function and that function should be

4167
03:53:37,360 --> 03:53:43,120
Speaker 1: fulfilled in a way that is as flexible as possible. Um. So,

4168
03:53:43,280 --> 03:53:45,840
Speaker 1: there's a lot less kind of well, I'm stuck in

4169
03:53:45,920 --> 03:53:48,560
Speaker 1: accounting and that's my life now, and that's all there

4170
03:53:48,760 --> 03:53:51,680
Speaker 1: that will ever be. Of course, there are limits to education,

4171
03:53:51,720 --> 03:53:55,000
Speaker 1: their limits to specialization, all of that kind of stuff,

4172
03:53:55,400 --> 03:53:57,840
Speaker 1: Like you know, it takes time to learn these things,

4173
03:53:58,120 --> 03:54:00,960
Speaker 1: but you could expect some more flexibility be there without

4174
03:54:01,120 --> 03:54:04,400
Speaker 1: having that terror of oh yeah, you know, in the

4175
03:54:04,480 --> 03:54:08,200
Speaker 1: neroliberal era, everybody's expected to have like fifteen jobs in

4176
03:54:08,240 --> 03:54:11,800
Speaker 1: the course of their quote unquote career. But also each

4177
03:54:11,880 --> 03:54:14,040
Speaker 1: of those jobs is going to be interspersed with a

4178
03:54:14,120 --> 03:54:18,160
Speaker 1: period of absolute terror as they live with unemployed in

4179
03:54:18,240 --> 03:54:22,440
Speaker 1: a society without a safety net. Right, Um, I think

4180
03:54:22,520 --> 03:54:26,360
Speaker 1: that that's that's you know, those are real consequences for

4181
03:54:26,840 --> 03:54:32,720
Speaker 1: everybody's life. I think, yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I think like,

4182
03:54:32,800 --> 03:54:35,160
Speaker 1: at a very very high level, the way Beer puts

4183
03:54:35,200 --> 03:54:38,280
Speaker 1: that is that we are trapped in this kind of

4184
03:54:38,520 --> 03:54:42,280
Speaker 1: crazy system that like its control variable as profits, like

4185
03:54:42,400 --> 03:54:45,600
Speaker 1: that's the little variable that it's it's like doing feedback

4186
03:54:45,640 --> 03:54:51,240
Speaker 1: onto to maintain um. Whereas what we're proposing is like

4187
03:54:51,720 --> 03:54:55,480
Speaker 1: that the sort of cybernetic future will be a society

4188
03:54:55,560 --> 03:54:59,560
Speaker 1: that's optimizing flourishing. Like what what Beer be the word

4189
03:54:59,600 --> 03:55:02,680
Speaker 1: he uses you demony, which is borrowing from Aristotle just

4190
03:55:02,800 --> 03:55:06,880
Speaker 1: did like flourishing. Um And yeah, a lot a lot

4191
03:55:06,960 --> 03:55:08,880
Speaker 1: of stuff flows out from that. Like to imagine a

4192
03:55:08,920 --> 03:55:12,800
Speaker 1: world where, because we we all feel it right that

4193
03:55:12,960 --> 03:55:16,240
Speaker 1: like everything around us is kind of like micro tuned

4194
03:55:16,760 --> 03:55:19,040
Speaker 1: as like a little feedback loop to keep money and

4195
03:55:19,120 --> 03:55:23,120
Speaker 1: profit flowing and to keep capital accumulating. Les imagine a

4196
03:55:23,160 --> 03:55:27,240
Speaker 1: world where that's just not true anymore, and the the

4197
03:55:27,640 --> 03:55:30,520
Speaker 1: sort of social infrastructure that you grow up in is

4198
03:55:30,520 --> 03:55:37,840
Speaker 1: an infrastructure that instead optimizes for the flourishing of life. Yeah. Um.

4199
03:55:38,400 --> 03:55:40,720
Speaker 1: And I think you know, when we we we look

4200
03:55:40,760 --> 03:55:43,440
Speaker 1: at sort of the broader patterns of society today, we

4201
03:55:43,560 --> 03:55:46,960
Speaker 1: see all of these hair brained schemes that you know,

4202
03:55:48,000 --> 03:55:51,560
Speaker 1: very rich men are embarking on, and they're they're setting

4203
03:55:51,600 --> 03:55:55,080
Speaker 1: the agenda for society. You know, we're that you know,

4204
03:55:55,240 --> 03:55:58,480
Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg is telling us that the metaverseus the future

4205
03:55:58,760 --> 03:56:00,880
Speaker 1: and you just have to get on board with this,

4206
03:56:01,080 --> 03:56:05,720
Speaker 1: even though anyone can see that this idea is patently ridiculous. Um.

4207
03:56:06,760 --> 03:56:12,600
Speaker 1: And in a society where that kind of management, that

4208
03:56:12,760 --> 03:56:17,920
Speaker 1: kind of money power doesn't exist anymore, Like you don't

4209
03:56:18,040 --> 03:56:21,760
Speaker 1: have to live under that kind of future horizon anymore,

4210
03:56:21,960 --> 03:56:25,160
Speaker 1: where it's like eight men with absurd amounts of money

4211
03:56:25,720 --> 03:56:29,920
Speaker 1: cook up, you know, ridiculous schemes and everybody has to

4212
03:56:30,040 --> 03:56:32,320
Speaker 1: follow them, just like they were following the orders of

4213
03:56:32,440 --> 03:56:36,120
Speaker 1: Pharaoh back in the day. I think do not be

4214
03:56:36,280 --> 03:56:39,080
Speaker 1: ruled by pharaohs is as kind of places. And he too,

4215
03:56:39,880 --> 03:56:41,480
Speaker 1: leave off unless you tell if anything else do you

4216
03:56:41,520 --> 03:56:44,160
Speaker 1: want to get to? Okay, there's there's one little line

4217
03:56:44,280 --> 03:56:46,560
Speaker 1: from Beer's book at what it's actually a set of

4218
03:56:46,600 --> 03:56:49,600
Speaker 1: presentations called Designing Freedom, that I absolutely love. It cracks

4219
03:56:49,600 --> 03:56:50,640
Speaker 1: me up every time I read it, so I'm just

4220
03:56:50,680 --> 03:56:52,360
Speaker 1: gonna beat that for the listeners. It gives you a

4221
03:56:52,440 --> 03:56:55,840
Speaker 1: sense of his absolute like ridiculous radicalism, like these off

4222
03:56:55,880 --> 03:56:59,120
Speaker 1: the fucking chats with this stuff. Um. At some point,

4223
03:56:59,200 --> 03:57:02,160
Speaker 1: he says, I'm quoting here, every time we hear that

4224
03:57:02,240 --> 03:57:04,880
Speaker 1: a proposal will destroy society has been we should have

4225
03:57:04,960 --> 03:57:11,360
Speaker 1: the courage to say, thank God at last, Yeah, a

4226
03:57:11,480 --> 03:57:17,480
Speaker 1: real maniac. Yeah. And and and you have this this

4227
03:57:17,720 --> 03:57:21,840
Speaker 1: dictum of if it works, it's out of date. So

4228
03:57:22,320 --> 03:57:25,960
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's like like, yeah, don't be complacent,

4229
03:57:26,360 --> 03:57:31,600
Speaker 1: you know, don't be a traditionalist. I think also that

4230
03:57:31,640 --> 03:57:34,160
Speaker 1: there's been there's been really horrific consequences of sort of

4231
03:57:34,400 --> 03:57:37,440
Speaker 1: the right being the ones to like take the urge

4232
03:57:37,480 --> 03:57:41,480
Speaker 1: for creative destruction, just like you know what was that line.

4233
03:57:41,480 --> 03:57:46,000
Speaker 1: There's some I forget some some venture capitalist things like

4234
03:57:46,080 --> 03:57:48,320
Speaker 1: move fast and break things, and it's like, yeah, so

4235
03:57:48,360 --> 03:57:50,960
Speaker 1: when they move fast the things they breaks us. But

4236
03:57:51,720 --> 03:57:56,200
Speaker 1: you know we can move faster and break things that

4237
03:57:56,320 --> 03:58:01,240
Speaker 1: are bad. Yeah, it's to create of and playful kind

4238
03:58:01,280 --> 03:58:03,960
Speaker 1: of motive being right that like you you might be

4239
03:58:04,000 --> 03:58:06,600
Speaker 1: able to work, wake up in the morning and think, God,

4240
03:58:06,680 --> 03:58:07,960
Speaker 1: you know, it would be really cool if we could

4241
03:58:08,000 --> 03:58:10,240
Speaker 1: have like like a child care nurse ory just like

4242
03:58:10,960 --> 03:58:12,960
Speaker 1: like out in the out in the common area between

4243
03:58:13,000 --> 03:58:15,360
Speaker 1: these buildings and stuff, and like go to your go

4244
03:58:15,480 --> 03:58:18,200
Speaker 1: to your local like your your workers council or whatever,

4245
03:58:18,280 --> 03:58:21,560
Speaker 1: and have a really plausible like the way of actually

4246
03:58:21,640 --> 03:58:24,360
Speaker 1: getting that and like collaborating with people to make that happen,

4247
03:58:24,760 --> 03:58:26,560
Speaker 1: and then being like, Okay, well we'll try it as

4248
03:58:26,560 --> 03:58:29,400
Speaker 1: an experiment for twelve months, we'll keep we'll see how

4249
03:58:29,440 --> 03:58:31,960
Speaker 1: it goes. And then there's a feedback cycle where it's like, Okay,

4250
03:58:32,000 --> 03:58:34,080
Speaker 1: some aspect of this design didn't really work out. We'll

4251
03:58:34,120 --> 03:58:36,080
Speaker 1: we'll go talk about it some more and then it

4252
03:58:36,240 --> 03:58:40,000
Speaker 1: aerate on that. And that's that's like as it's it's

4253
03:58:40,040 --> 03:58:43,240
Speaker 1: an entrepreneurialism that doesn't bear much resemblance to what that

4254
03:58:43,440 --> 03:58:46,160
Speaker 1: word means right now. It just means that human beings,

4255
03:58:46,280 --> 03:58:49,320
Speaker 1: living real things, real workers, will be able to actually

4256
03:58:49,400 --> 03:58:52,960
Speaker 1: control their environments in this the substance of their lives

4257
03:58:53,000 --> 03:58:58,520
Speaker 1: and in a meaningful way. Yeah, and like this, I

4258
03:58:58,600 --> 03:59:02,200
Speaker 1: think you know, back in the nineties early odds, sort

4259
03:59:02,240 --> 03:59:05,720
Speaker 1: of before the two thousand eight crisis, in the hoary

4260
03:59:05,840 --> 03:59:10,640
Speaker 1: days of your um it's there was a lot of

4261
03:59:10,760 --> 03:59:19,200
Speaker 1: talk about flexibility and dynamicism and adaptation. But what that

4262
03:59:19,320 --> 03:59:24,520
Speaker 1: always meant was we make decisions about what's going to

4263
03:59:24,720 --> 03:59:28,200
Speaker 1: change and you have to adapt, right it was it

4264
03:59:28,360 --> 03:59:31,960
Speaker 1: was it was, you know, always this arbitrary power from

4265
03:59:32,080 --> 03:59:35,280
Speaker 1: outside that would just be changing the social fabric, and

4266
03:59:36,000 --> 03:59:39,160
Speaker 1: you had to be flexible enough to cope with what

4267
03:59:39,360 --> 03:59:44,400
Speaker 1: you were being subjected to. It's very different if you

4268
03:59:44,480 --> 03:59:50,560
Speaker 1: know the planning is being done by you for you,

4269
03:59:51,520 --> 03:59:56,840
Speaker 1: and you're moving towards adaptation and flexibility out of a

4270
03:59:56,960 --> 04:00:01,080
Speaker 1: sense of oh, yeah, this would be better and I'm

4271
04:00:01,160 --> 04:00:04,600
Speaker 1: going to adapt to be in a better state to

4272
04:00:05,440 --> 04:00:09,080
Speaker 1: to work with my environment, uh, in a more healthy

4273
04:00:09,320 --> 04:00:12,720
Speaker 1: and a more flourishing way as opposed to just like,

4274
04:00:13,360 --> 04:00:15,480
Speaker 1: oh yeah, you've got to work three jobs now, so

4275
04:00:15,640 --> 04:00:19,640
Speaker 1: figure it out right. That's a very different kind of flexibility,

4276
04:00:19,800 --> 04:00:22,720
Speaker 1: very different kind of adaptation. And you know, those things

4277
04:00:22,760 --> 04:00:25,160
Speaker 1: have sort of become dirty words in some ways, but

4278
04:00:25,600 --> 04:00:27,640
Speaker 1: they are really core to the way that we all

4279
04:00:27,720 --> 04:00:30,600
Speaker 1: exist as organisms in the world, and they don't have

4280
04:00:30,840 --> 04:00:36,240
Speaker 1: to be just synonyms for abuse. Mm hmm exactly. Yeah,

4281
04:00:36,320 --> 04:00:38,440
Speaker 1: I think okay, we can take this as a place

4282
04:00:38,480 --> 04:00:41,240
Speaker 1: to leave off. Yeah, do you two have stuff you

4283
04:00:41,280 --> 04:00:43,120
Speaker 1: want to log and I know you you want to plug,

4284
04:00:43,200 --> 04:00:45,440
Speaker 1: but plug the things that you want people to listen

4285
04:00:45,480 --> 04:00:50,320
Speaker 1: to because they are Um yeah, we're General Intellecting us.

4286
04:00:50,440 --> 04:00:53,000
Speaker 1: Um you could to General Intellecting a totness and it's

4287
04:00:53,040 --> 04:00:55,760
Speaker 1: got all the episodes on there around Twitter, ask g

4288
04:00:56,080 --> 04:00:59,160
Speaker 1: nice pod Um, yeah, you can find us on all

4289
04:00:59,200 --> 04:01:02,480
Speaker 1: the podcast things. Um. We're also part of a podcast

4290
04:01:02,520 --> 04:01:06,240
Speaker 1: network called Emancipation and so that's emancipation dot Network on

4291
04:01:06,360 --> 04:01:10,360
Speaker 1: the web. Um, and yeah, some really excellent shows on there.

4292
04:01:10,400 --> 04:01:16,560
Speaker 1: We were collaborating with Swampside Chats and um, Mortal Science

4293
04:01:16,880 --> 04:01:19,640
Speaker 1: from Alpha to Omega Jumps in Utopia. They're they're really

4294
04:01:19,680 --> 04:01:23,680
Speaker 1: wonderful shows that are all um it's it's a variety

4295
04:01:23,720 --> 04:01:26,040
Speaker 1: of different sort of takes on things, but like um,

4296
04:01:26,400 --> 04:01:29,000
Speaker 1: there's a sort of common there's a sort of spiritual

4297
04:01:29,040 --> 04:01:32,720
Speaker 1: common grounds they all have. Um yeah, we we all

4298
04:01:32,800 --> 04:01:42,839
Speaker 1: were all interested in thinking systematically. We're all interested in emancipation,

4299
04:01:43,160 --> 04:01:46,760
Speaker 1: as the network name says, and we're all interested in

4300
04:01:47,160 --> 04:01:52,760
Speaker 1: sort of building something going forward, trying to construct an

4301
04:01:52,760 --> 04:01:59,920
Speaker 1: alternative as opposed to simply getting caught up in day

4302
04:02:00,000 --> 04:02:06,320
Speaker 1: today politics or getting caught up in uh dum mentality. Yeah.

4303
04:02:06,800 --> 04:02:09,680
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it's systematic, it's critical, but it's also

4304
04:02:09,800 --> 04:02:11,800
Speaker 1: constructive and I think that's what we're all trying to

4305
04:02:11,880 --> 04:02:15,280
Speaker 1: do there. Yeah. Yeah, Well, thank you too both for

4306
04:02:15,400 --> 04:02:19,760
Speaker 1: coming on. Thank you it's been wondering. Thanks for having us. Yeah,

4307
04:02:20,000 --> 04:02:21,880
Speaker 1: this has been Make it happen here. You can find

4308
04:02:22,000 --> 04:02:26,680
Speaker 1: us that happened here pod in places. There's also stuff

4309
04:02:26,760 --> 04:02:28,720
Speaker 1: at Coals on media that you can also find in

4310
04:02:28,960 --> 04:02:31,840
Speaker 1: those same places and possibly also different ones. We have

4311
04:02:31,920 --> 04:02:34,760
Speaker 1: a we have a website. Everyone asked me for my

4312
04:02:34,840 --> 04:02:38,400
Speaker 1: sources every single week and they get posted there once

4313
04:02:38,440 --> 04:02:42,800
Speaker 1: a month. So yeah, go go to Culson Media dot

4314
04:02:42,840 --> 04:02:46,200
Speaker 1: com and you will find all of the sources so

4315
04:02:46,240 --> 04:02:49,760
Speaker 1: you don't have to DM me every week, all right,

4316
04:02:50,040 --> 04:03:07,640
Speaker 1: by h Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes

4317
04:03:07,800 --> 04:03:10,240
Speaker 1: every week from now until the heat death of the Universe.

4318
04:03:11,040 --> 04:03:13,400
Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

4319
04:03:13,720 --> 04:03:16,280
Speaker 1: Or more podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our website

4320
04:03:16,320 --> 04:03:18,440
Speaker 1: cool zone Media dot com, or check us out on

4321
04:03:18,520 --> 04:03:21,000
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

4322
04:03:21,080 --> 04:03:23,840
Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could

4323
04:03:23,880 --> 04:03:26,800
Speaker 1: Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com

4324
04:03:26,920 --> 04:03:28,800
Speaker 1: slash sources. Thanks for listening.