Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Naima Raza.
Speaker 2: Like all of you, I have been living for Curse
Speaker 2: of America's Next Top Model. So to help with your
Speaker 2: and my withdrawal from season one, Bridget invited me to
Speaker 2: share a little bit about my weekly show, which is
Speaker 2: called Smart Girl Dumb Questions. We'll play you a taste
Speaker 2: of a recent episode I did with Astair Perrell, the
Speaker 2: renowned psychotherapist and relationship expert, as we unpack why love
Speaker 2: feels so hard these days. Have a listen, and if
Speaker 2: you like it, you can get the full conversation by
Speaker 2: searching for Smart Girl Dumb Questions wherever you get your podcasts,
Speaker 2: and you can follow or subscribe to the show for
Speaker 2: new episodes every Tuesday. Astaire Parrell, thank you so much
Speaker 2: for being here.
Speaker 3: Pleasure to be here.
Speaker 2: For those of you not familiar with Ustair's work, She's
Speaker 2: written two international bestsellers. She's given ted talks that have
Speaker 2: been viewed over fifty million times. She's a keen observer
Speaker 2: of what's happening in our relationships, not just in our
Speaker 2: love lives, but at work in all the ways that
Speaker 2: we relate to one another. I think you're really an
Speaker 2: expert on humans on.
Speaker 3: What humans do to eat, children, experience sweety children, and
Speaker 3: long from each other and.
Speaker 2: Long from each other. I want to know what you
Speaker 2: long for. We're going to get there. I have questions
Speaker 2: for you about why is it harder to fall in
Speaker 2: love as time goes on. I can't tell if it's age,
Speaker 2: or if it's this modern life, or if there's something
Speaker 2: about me. And I also want to start, though, with
Speaker 2: something a little bit nostalgic, which is the first time
Speaker 2: we met, because we're also friends Estherah and I.
Speaker 3: I have an image of us walking out of a
Speaker 3: building on the street. But what were we doing in
Speaker 3: that building?
Speaker 2: Was that the Spotify building?
Speaker 1: Yes? But what were we doing this?
Speaker 2: We were chatting, and we were chatting off the record,
Speaker 2: and yet I wanted to buy some tape from it today.
Speaker 2: Is that okay?
Speaker 3: Of the records that you recorded me?
Speaker 2: Well, I remember, I asked you for your permission, but
Speaker 2: it was for my own notes. It was for my
Speaker 2: own notes, and I kept it and if it's okay,
Speaker 2: I'll play it for you or if you don't like
Speaker 2: curiosity is odd? I know that this is the whole
Speaker 2: point of the show, Smart Girl, Dumb questions.
Speaker 4: We are wanting something that is at the opposite of
Speaker 4: where we are living. When you live in Pakistan, when
Speaker 4: your mother lives in Pakistan, because you're already the generation
Speaker 4: moving and so you are super rich and fascinating and
Speaker 4: fucked up because you are constantly negotiating. It makes you
Speaker 4: the most pertinent global citizen and an amazing journalist, but
Speaker 4: you are constantly translating between different value systems. Well as
Speaker 4: your mother, she knew what was expected from her as
Speaker 4: a wife, as a mother, as a woman, as a daughter,
Speaker 4: and as a pious press.
Speaker 1: The rules were clear. The rules weren't clear. The norms
Speaker 1: are clear, the expectations are clear. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: certainty here, very little freedom. There's a lot of freedom
Speaker 1: here and very good consurdity because everything now has to
Speaker 1: be negotiated. Everything that was a rule has become a conversation.
Speaker 2: Everything that was a rule has become a conversation. What
Speaker 2: do you think hearing that, I still like that.
Speaker 3: I think that one of the most interesting shifts that
Speaker 3: has taken place in the realm of relationships is the
Speaker 3: shift from relationships that are defined by duty and obligation,
Speaker 3: by loyalty and community, to relationships that became defined by
Speaker 3: feelings rather than values, and by personal authenticity rather than loyalty.
Speaker 3: And I think that the majority of the world is
Speaker 3: still living with the very first model. But there are
Speaker 3: so many people on this planet. You are one of
Speaker 3: them who are constantly straddling both. And the reason I
Speaker 3: said to you all of this, it's all coming back.
Speaker 2: The reason you told me unfact.
Speaker 3: I said, I mean confused, it is probably better. It's rich,
Speaker 3: it's very layered, it's it's you know, it's because that
Speaker 3: same weekend you were going to Washington to visit your father,
Speaker 3: and I said, how much do you live between these
Speaker 3: two worlds? You know, the world where you had very
Speaker 3: little freedom, with a lot of clarity and certainty, and
Speaker 3: the world where you have a ton of freedom. But
Speaker 3: you are often written with self doubt and with uncertainty,
Speaker 3: as we are today here in the way, especially when
Speaker 3: it comes to our romantic relationships. So I don't know
Speaker 3: that one is better than the other.
Speaker 2: I love that, and I love that you still think
Speaker 2: this way. Because this was seven years ago. I was like,
Speaker 2: here's esther prow this. You know, you were really on
Speaker 2: up at that time as well. I think your career
Speaker 2: was like you still are, but that was like you
Speaker 2: were taking off in a way, and that was the
Speaker 2: first year. Yeah, the first year of that takeoff, and
Speaker 2: I thought, I really appreciate it. Was like, oh, she
Speaker 2: basically diagnosed me, But she also diagnosed a lot of
Speaker 2: our society. Because it isn't just about international and cultural
Speaker 2: it's about the way in which the role of a
Speaker 2: woman has changed tremendously between a generation. And I guess
Speaker 2: my first question for you is, has feminism fucked us?
Speaker 2: Has this idea of this changing role of women in
Speaker 2: some way put us an extension between what this old
Speaker 2: world and this new world and in this constant sense
Speaker 2: of negotiation and self doubt.
Speaker 3: I absolutely wouldn't say that it has sucked us up.
Speaker 3: I think that that's not a way I think. I
Speaker 3: think it's an extremely important movement in the history of
Speaker 3: people of humankind, for men and women and everybody included. So,
Speaker 3: but I do think that change happens in multiple phases.
Speaker 3: You can make a declaration, you can change the law,
Speaker 3: you can open doors, but what follows in terms of
Speaker 3: the intricacies of the experience takes more than one generation.
Speaker 3: You know, every time I want to be critical of feminism,
Speaker 3: I only have to think about the places where women
Speaker 3: have zero voice or power or protection. I have to
Speaker 3: think about my own grandmother, who you know, the gap
Speaker 3: between where she was and where I am. I have
Speaker 3: to think even with my mother and how she was
Speaker 3: a full time working person. We lived above the store,
Speaker 3: so I saw her working morning and night. The store
Speaker 3: was opened some days till nine o'clock. She came upstairs.
Speaker 3: She cooked her two meals made from scratch, and there
Speaker 3: was no complaint. But her aspiration inside was that is
Speaker 3: there a different way? Is there a way that she
Speaker 3: didn't have to carry some of the burdens that she
Speaker 3: was carrying. And then came the next generation, which began
Speaker 3: to say, if I do all these things, you partner,
Speaker 3: she should do those things too. And then came my generation,
Speaker 3: which is basically the designer generation. I get to design
Speaker 3: my relationship, but that demands that I know what I want.
Speaker 3: You know, authenticity and to be true to ourselves is
Speaker 3: not an easy thing to come by, and certainly not
Speaker 3: in your twenties. So when you say what's changed, you
Speaker 3: know in the sixties, eighty percent of people in their
Speaker 3: twenties in the United States were married. Today in twenty
Speaker 3: percent of people in their twenties are marriage.
Speaker 2: I don't even think eighty percent of people in their
Speaker 2: thirties are married.
Speaker 3: But that means that, you know, our parents' generation saw
Speaker 3: marriage as a cornerstone experience. I meet you, and together
Speaker 3: we build the foundation of our life. We have developed
Speaker 3: the capstone experience of marriage, marriage or committed relationships, it
Speaker 3: doesn't matter. But the capstone thing means I've already developed.
Speaker 3: I've already built myself. I'm already on a certain track.
Speaker 3: I have an idea of what I want where I
Speaker 3: stand in the world, and you come as a confirmation
Speaker 3: of who I am. You come to help me preserve
Speaker 3: my hard one identity.
Speaker 2: And so much of our culture is like self help,
Speaker 2: self life, self.
Speaker 3: Too much self in front of every word.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, what word would you put there instead of self?
Speaker 3: Other?
Speaker 2: Other others?
Speaker 3: You know, I think that the the over index, the
Speaker 3: over emphasis on the self at a detriment of our
Speaker 3: ability to actually think about others, is not necessarily helping
Speaker 3: us at this point, right.
Speaker 2: I see the shift you're talking about from the other
Speaker 2: to ourself, and I think about it a lot, especially
Speaker 2: because of my cultural words. As you said, I want
Speaker 2: to visit my father, and after my father passed away,
Speaker 2: I wrote a whole piece about how obligation gives doesn't
Speaker 2: just take. It gives a lot. But I also think
Speaker 2: that there's this realness story.
Speaker 3: And I think that we need more people in that sense,
Speaker 3: like you, you know you, it's very natural for you
Speaker 3: to write that piece, but in fact it's not a
Speaker 3: natural piece for others who know you to read, and
Speaker 3: it puts them in front of another dimension. You know,
Speaker 3: Obligation is not hot at this moment, it's not popular.
Speaker 3: Authenticity and personal truth and honesty is much more, you know,
Speaker 3: and we will forego our relationships at this moment in
Speaker 3: order to preserve this authenticity. And what you're saying is
Speaker 3: a relational model, which I think we could really use
Speaker 3: hearing a lot more about because it directly connects to
Speaker 3: everything else people want to discuss about loneliness xcept these
Speaker 3: things are connected, except.
Speaker 2: I think, like you said, like you diagnosed the first
Speaker 2: time I met. It's extremely challenging because I have this
Speaker 2: other orientation. I want to be, you know, dutiful, and
Speaker 2: I want to in many ways model parts of what
Speaker 2: my mother has done. But I also have this real
Speaker 2: tension and expectation and experience of being a highly independent, individualized,
Speaker 2: you know, person in this world with a lot of freedom,
Speaker 2: a lot of choice. So that's why I ask the
Speaker 2: question that feminism fuck us. I ask it partly rhetorically,
Speaker 2: but I also think there's a changing role of women
Speaker 2: that is objectively good and yet hasn't been captured and
Speaker 2: really dealt with as a society. For what you're saying,
Speaker 2: it's it's going to be multi generational for it to
Speaker 2: be absorbed.
Speaker 3: Correct, it needs to metabolize. But I think if you're
Speaker 3: asking about the foundations of changing the dynamic between the roles,
Speaker 3: you know, I mean you. I came to hear you
Speaker 3: do a leader dialogue or a debate recently about masculinity.
Speaker 3: You know what was at a comedy seller, right, And
Speaker 3: the interesting thing is that the person started to talk
Speaker 3: by talking about the Women's Revolution and that that revolution
Speaker 3: actually hadn't just changed the life of women, but it
Speaker 3: had actually changed the lives of men, and it gave
Speaker 3: birth to a very very important development, which is the
Speaker 3: making of modern fatherhood, which is a huge but we
Speaker 3: don't talk about that in of the revolution. You know,
Speaker 3: the men's movement we just we've decided that the women
Speaker 3: had a revolution and the men have not had it yet,
Speaker 3: but we do know.
Speaker 2: Do you think they've had it? Have men had a
Speaker 2: revolution yet? Like a feminist revolution?
Speaker 3: But from me, I think that women have had about
Speaker 3: fifty sixty years of examining their lives and their position
Speaker 3: in this world, and their aspirations and rights and narratives,
Speaker 3: and I think that men have not had it in
Speaker 3: a systematic a way. There are pockets, but they have not,
Speaker 3: And I think that in that sense, the restrictions are
Speaker 3: much stronger on the men.
Speaker 2: Does there need to be a masculinity revolution?
Speaker 3: I don't think if it as a revolution, I think
Speaker 3: that that everybody stands to gain from revisiting taboos, rigidities,
Speaker 3: set norms, and constraining and constricting narratives and roles. What's wrong?
Speaker 3: I mean, that's kind of an obvious thing. Why would
Speaker 3: why Why wouldn't we? And I think that it would
Speaker 3: change the lives of many. But that's the point of view,
Speaker 3: right right? Is status quo something that must be preserved
Speaker 3: or is there something inherently good in revisiting social norms?
Speaker 2: Well, right now it seems like we're in a moment
Speaker 2: of reckoning with social norms, because I mean, I'm sure
Speaker 2: you've read a lot about the tradwife revolution or the
Speaker 2: kind of interesting it's not a revolution, yes, okay, the
Speaker 2: trade wife trend, yes, the tradwife trend, yes, the kind
Speaker 2: of women looking for a guy and finance sex five,
Speaker 2: et cetera trend. Do you see any of these as like,
Speaker 2: are these extremely nostalgic or they reactions to our time?
Speaker 2: How do you make sense of these gender role like reassertions?
Speaker 3: Every time you go to see an exhibit on the generate.
Speaker 2: Art every every Tuesday for me, yes, I.
Speaker 3: Mean there have been amazing exhibits of that. You get
Speaker 3: a sense as to what was considered degenerate. And one
Speaker 3: of the first things that was considered degenerate is gender
Speaker 3: roles that become more fluid, And what was considered degenerate
Speaker 3: was kind of a blurring between fiction and reality and
Speaker 3: what was considered more fluid, you know it. So the
Speaker 3: opposite of that is that you then't look at what
Speaker 3: was the art that was actually revered, and it was
Speaker 3: a table of people around, you know, all impeccably dressed
Speaker 3: with the woman who is serving the whole clan of
Speaker 3: the family and who finds meaning in that subservience, and
Speaker 3: there is order, there is clarity of roles, there is
Speaker 3: hierarchy of gender, and that is extremely comforting. So I
Speaker 3: don't know that I would call it just nostalgic. I
Speaker 3: think that wherever you have rises of authoritarianism and where
Speaker 3: in the world, it is accompanied with a redefinition of
Speaker 3: rigid gender roles, traditional gender roles. If you redefine the
Speaker 3: role of the woman, you redefine the role of the men. Right,
Speaker 3: they are interdependent. The trad wife does not exist without
Speaker 3: a counterpart. She's always accompanied by.
Speaker 2: That makes it sound like it's something that's happening, But
Speaker 2: I think women are lasting for something. I think there's
Speaker 2: a sense of like, I kind of think.
Speaker 3: They may participate in this the same you know, it's
Speaker 3: not that it is imposed on them, but it is
Speaker 3: related to a recreation of a certain social order that
Speaker 3: is broader than just gender, and it comes with authoritarianism
Speaker 3: autocratic regimes. The same thing happens around sexuality.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: I had a conversation with you. Never forget the first
Speaker 3: question he asked me is why does every authoritarian regime
Speaker 3: come with an instant repression around sexuality. It's messy, and
Speaker 3: authoritarianism doesn't like messy blurred lines, blurred roles.
Speaker 1: And all of that.
Speaker 3: Trad Wives is very clear. You know, you've defined it
Speaker 3: to me. The way she dresses, she cooks, she bakes, she's,
Speaker 3: she's she can mean, you know, the whole, and that
Speaker 3: art exists. I mean, it's very interesting to look at
Speaker 3: it historically because it brought a sense of structure order.
Speaker 3: Everyone knows their place, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Also, like about what you said, what is considered degenerate
Speaker 2: at the time is like an opposition to whatever.
Speaker 3: The generate is always considered the same thing. The blurring
Speaker 3: is considered degenerate. The blurring of genders is the general.
Speaker 3: The blurring of higher chides the general.
Speaker 2: So it's not like it's not like child wives are
Speaker 2: degenerate because they're pushing against the current. It's always know, what.
Speaker 3: Is considered not okay is kids who think that they
Speaker 3: have too much importance, rather than there are little ones
Speaker 3: that are very nicely, obedient and dressed and stand by
Speaker 3: you like this. You know, I wish everybody else wishes
Speaker 3: their kids would stand like that, nice nicely next to them.
Speaker 3: Everybody is in their place, which makes it easier for
Speaker 3: others to move them.
Speaker 2: Right, to control the system. So there's also this other
Speaker 2: narrative right now that men are being commoditized. Did you
Speaker 2: watch them? You watch the movie Materialists? Yes, okay, what
Speaker 2: did you think of the Materialists as a concept the relationship,
Speaker 2: not the film, but the idea for this.
Speaker 3: It's all in the math.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all a transaction.
Speaker 3: It's all in the math.
Speaker 2: Yes, you agree that that's how our culture looks at it.
Speaker 3: I think that there is something about that in our culture. Yes,
Speaker 3: I think this is consumerism marrying romanticism becoming romantic consumerism. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that's it's it's you know, it's emotional capitalism.
Speaker 2: So the idea, I mean, the way the film for
Speaker 2: people who haven't seen it came out.
Speaker 3: He's a ten, he's a ten, he's a unicorn, she's
Speaker 3: a six, Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just amazing everyone has a number. And
Speaker 2: then to promote the film, they put a stock price
Speaker 2: ticker literally at the you know, the New York Stock Exchange,
Speaker 2: that had men and their height and their salaries, and
Speaker 2: they were running them up and down as if it
Speaker 2: was a exchange. It is terrible do you think, do
Speaker 2: you think that sex has become commoditized these days? Or
Speaker 2: not sex the act of sex, but relationship has become commoritized, consumerized,
Speaker 2: you say, And then yes I do. And who is
Speaker 2: the commodity the days is that people? Men is more women, everybody.
Speaker 3: Everybody, people are the commodity. I mean, you know, the
Speaker 3: concept of emotional capitalism is an interesting crossover, right because
Speaker 3: what happens is that on the one hand, you have
Speaker 3: all these psychological terms that have entered the business world,
Speaker 3: and we talk about psychological safety, and we talk about
Speaker 3: authenticity and we talk about vulnerability. But on the other end,
Speaker 3: you have an entire business mentality that has entered romantic love,
Speaker 3: you know, And we're going to hedge our bets and
Speaker 3: we're going to negotiate the best deals, and it's in
Speaker 3: the midst of that we're going to somehow find love.
Speaker 3: But we are bringing in an enormously transactional what will
Speaker 3: satisfy me? What is on my list? What am I
Speaker 3: looking for? And when I don't like it, I dump
Speaker 3: a ghost, I photo, I go on to the next
Speaker 3: and I swipe. And disembodied experiences make you forget that
Speaker 3: there's actually a human being on the other side.
Speaker 2: And as soon maybe there won't be a human being.
Speaker 2: People are having romantic relationships with their ais now they
Speaker 2: may yes, would you all things equal? Rather date in
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five or twenty twenty five? Oh all right,
Speaker 2: Chris of ANTM Family, a little cliffhanger there for you.
Speaker 2: Estair's answer, by the way, really surprise me. So if
Speaker 2: you want to hear it, search for Smart Girl Dumb
Speaker 2: Questions wherever you get your podcasts and you can start
Speaker 2: listening around minute nineteen so you don't feel like you
Speaker 2: have to start and listen to the whole thing. Oliver again,
Speaker 2: and by the way, please follow the Smart Girl Dumb Questions.
Speaker 2: New episodes of the show drop every Tuesday. And you
Speaker 2: may love my conversation with Brooke Devard when I ask
Speaker 2: her is beauty just capitalism? Or with Tamson Fidel when
Speaker 2: I ask her what's a woman's prime? Or with therapist
Speaker 2: Ellen Bora because we talk talk about if everyone has anxiety?
Speaker 2: Does anyone have anxiety? And if you have dumb questions
Speaker 2: you want answered, please email me. I'm Meema Raza one
Speaker 2: oh one at gmail dot com. Great to meet you, guys,
Speaker 2: and hope to see you on Smart Girl, Dumb Questions,