WEBVTT - Jacob Collier, Part 2 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:22.916 Pushkin. We're back today with part two of Bruce Edlam's 0:00:22.956 --> 0:00:28.356 conversation with YouTube sensation turned five time Grammy winner Jacob Collier. 0:00:28.996 --> 0:00:31.276 Were left out for our last episode, with Jacob talking 0:00:31.316 --> 0:00:33.116 about what it's like to perform to an audience of 0:00:33.156 --> 0:00:36.916 thousands of people after growing a fan base entirely online. 0:00:37.356 --> 0:00:39.956 In this episode, we'll hear Jacob play the piano and 0:00:40.036 --> 0:00:44.436 go deep on music theory. It's honestly pretty extraordinary. It 0:00:44.516 --> 0:00:47.196 isn't every day that a musician of Jacob's caliber takes 0:00:47.196 --> 0:00:49.156 a time to sit down at a piano and really 0:00:49.196 --> 0:00:52.076 break down his creative process in the theory behind it. 0:00:52.796 --> 0:00:55.436 He also talks more about his new album, Piano Ballads, 0:00:55.876 --> 0:00:58.356 and about how the old standard Moon River taught him 0:00:58.396 --> 0:01:02.316 the power of centering his avant garde arrangements on emotions. 0:01:05.116 --> 0:01:08.356 This is broken record liner notes for the digital age. 0:01:08.556 --> 0:01:13.956 I'm just mich Here's Bruce Adlam and Jacob Collier. One 0:01:13.956 --> 0:01:18.036 of your early experiences on stage, I read was you 0:01:18.156 --> 0:01:19.716 sang in a couple of operas. I think you're sanging 0:01:19.796 --> 0:01:24.276 Fought sec and Magic Flute. But then you did Benjamin 0:01:24.316 --> 0:01:27.356 Britten The Turn of the Screw, and you said I 0:01:27.396 --> 0:01:30.116 think it was his harmonies like blew your mind or something. 0:01:30.716 --> 0:01:32.756 Now I thought I would have to sit here and 0:01:32.796 --> 0:01:35.636 pretend to understand Benjamin Britten, and that was making me 0:01:35.756 --> 0:01:38.436 very nervous. And I do like the interludes from from 0:01:38.476 --> 0:01:42.116 Peter grind. Since I didn't know, I reached out to 0:01:42.156 --> 0:01:45.356 two people who do know. One's my brother Phil, who's 0:01:45.356 --> 0:01:47.476 a conductor in Europe. Actually he used to teach at 0:01:47.476 --> 0:01:49.636 the Royal Academy. Oh did I think? Yeah? And my 0:01:49.676 --> 0:01:52.636 other is my brother Dave, who's he's a music theorist 0:01:52.636 --> 0:01:56.116 at Eastman wonderful. So I said, what do I possibly 0:01:56.156 --> 0:01:59.316 say about this? They say, Britain's harmonies not defined by 0:01:59.356 --> 0:02:02.756 something in and of itself, but here's how they related 0:02:02.796 --> 0:02:05.076 to you. And maybe this is why you liked it 0:02:05.156 --> 0:02:10.676 so much. Your negative harmony uses what theorist Carl Inversion 0:02:11.276 --> 0:02:13.636 tell me about negative harmony and how you use it. 0:02:14.716 --> 0:02:19.596 So negative harmony is quite an ancient idea. It's an 0:02:19.636 --> 0:02:22.756 idea based in polarity. So the idea that what goes 0:02:22.836 --> 0:02:25.596 up must go down. You know, a tree has branches 0:02:25.636 --> 0:02:27.596 that grow up and roots that grow down, and it 0:02:27.876 --> 0:02:30.556 happens in nature. And so I had a teacher of 0:02:30.596 --> 0:02:32.036 mine when I was at the roy Academy for a 0:02:32.076 --> 0:02:34.756 couple of years. His name is Barack Schmoore, and Barrack 0:02:34.836 --> 0:02:37.316 studied with a very very great saxophon play called Steve Coleman. 0:02:37.756 --> 0:02:40.596 And Steve Coleman is just one of the deepest musicians 0:02:40.596 --> 0:02:43.996 who's alive, and he has got very deep into studying 0:02:44.476 --> 0:02:46.956 certain musicians. There's one that he cites. His name is 0:02:46.996 --> 0:02:49.076 Ernst Levy, who wrote a book called A Theory of 0:02:49.076 --> 0:02:51.196 Harmony and and I've dipped into this book and it's 0:02:51.276 --> 0:02:54.956 it's dense but fascinating, and the idea is actually really simple, 0:02:54.996 --> 0:02:56.276 you know. It's it's the idea that if you have 0:02:56.316 --> 0:03:02.196 a melody that goes you know, and you reverse every direction, 0:03:04.396 --> 0:03:07.236 what goes up must go down. So the reflection of 0:03:07.276 --> 0:03:12.036 this is this, right, So when you see the reflection, 0:03:12.276 --> 0:03:14.156 if there's a full tone up, it's a full tone 0:03:14.196 --> 0:03:15.996 down exactly. Yeah, It's like you put a mirror at 0:03:16.036 --> 0:03:18.156 this note and this is upper tone, so that goes 0:03:18.196 --> 0:03:24.636 down a tone right like that. So the idea is 0:03:24.716 --> 0:03:27.076 very simple. So Steve has has thought about this as 0:03:27.076 --> 0:03:30.436 a melodic idea, you know, so a phrase, you know, 0:03:31.476 --> 0:03:36.036 like that you know, and and if I flipped that 0:03:36.076 --> 0:03:48.716 as yeah, that's the reflection that kind of thing. So 0:03:49.116 --> 0:03:52.556 it's a really amazing melodic device. But for me, I mean, 0:03:52.796 --> 0:03:54.716 you know me, I'm all about the harmony. So I 0:03:54.756 --> 0:03:56.676 think the thing that I gravitated towards the most was 0:03:56.796 --> 0:03:59.956 that this in a harmonic sense. So if I'm if 0:03:59.956 --> 0:04:03.156 I'm in the key of F major in classical music, 0:04:03.236 --> 0:04:05.236 you think, what how would I get to F major? 0:04:05.236 --> 0:04:09.796 While we get there from a C seven chord? Right? 0:04:11.876 --> 0:04:16.116 So I say five one. So what earned S. Levey 0:04:16.196 --> 0:04:20.076 describes as one possible access of reflection is the idea 0:04:20.076 --> 0:04:22.996 of you take you take F and C, which is 0:04:22.996 --> 0:04:26.676 our kind of home key, and this this F and 0:04:26.916 --> 0:04:29.516 F and c the note but exactly between F and C, 0:04:29.716 --> 0:04:33.076 so that them as a duo that becomes the reflection point, 0:04:33.116 --> 0:04:38.996 the mirror. And if I reflect C seven over that access, 0:04:40.756 --> 0:04:57.116 then you come up with this sound. Right. So, and 0:04:57.196 --> 0:04:59.036 I mean you can imagine when I first say this, 0:04:59.116 --> 0:05:02.796 I thought, oh man, that's so thrilling the idea that 0:05:02.676 --> 0:05:05.956 the reflection of the dominant chord is as it's as 0:05:06.076 --> 0:05:09.116 led to the key. Because if you think about C seven, 0:05:10.596 --> 0:05:12.436 this note, which is a B flat. This wants to sink. 0:05:14.436 --> 0:05:21.236 That's where it wants to go. Right, So you've got 0:05:21.276 --> 0:05:23.996 this don't wants to this, don't wants to sink. That 0:05:24.036 --> 0:05:27.276 note wants to rise, and in this that note wants 0:05:27.316 --> 0:05:32.436 to sink, so that the gravity is equivalent that That's 0:05:32.476 --> 0:05:33.876 the crazy thing is that it's the same amount of 0:05:33.916 --> 0:05:41.596 gravity to f but it's reflected. So in classical music 0:05:41.636 --> 0:05:43.036 you might have or even in jazz you might have 0:05:43.076 --> 0:05:54.876 something like six two five one games And so if 0:05:54.916 --> 0:05:58.596 you do that with negative harmony, you get this amazing 0:06:06.756 --> 0:06:15.076 like that. It's a different flavor. So you say, how 0:06:15.076 --> 0:06:17.876 do I use it? Well, I'm not. I wouldn't claim 0:06:17.916 --> 0:06:21.556 to have the deepest understanding of polarity in all of 0:06:21.596 --> 0:06:23.996 its permutations musically, but I think that the concept of 0:06:24.036 --> 0:06:28.556 that really got me excited because in a very basic way, 0:06:28.716 --> 0:06:31.716 it's it's plegalizing every perfect cadence. And when we see 0:06:31.716 --> 0:06:33.836 plagueal cadence, it's like a four one instead of a 0:06:33.836 --> 0:06:37.196 five one. So five one is this and four one 0:06:38.276 --> 0:06:40.836 is this? Right, it's almost like a more of a 0:06:40.876 --> 0:06:47.756 gospel sound. So rather than going yeah right, it's going 0:06:49.916 --> 0:06:52.116 like what James Taylor would do? You know or Joanie. 0:06:52.156 --> 0:07:01.436 If if Joanie goes, oh, what she doesn't do is 0:07:05.116 --> 0:07:25.356 she goes right, and then right there's plaguels to plaguel cans, 0:07:25.796 --> 0:07:27.836 and then it's a plaguel cans on the plaguel cans, 0:07:28.076 --> 0:07:29.396 and you can even do a plague one on that 0:07:29.476 --> 0:07:30.836 and then on that, so you can actually do like 0:07:33.756 --> 0:07:46.196 instead of And that's so cool to me. Four four 0:07:46.276 --> 0:07:49.516 four one. And so do I think about this one? 0:07:49.516 --> 0:07:52.876 I'm improvising plane babs on stage consciously. No. But what 0:07:52.916 --> 0:07:55.396 I have done is familiarize myself with the materials of 0:07:55.556 --> 0:07:57.996 what that feels like in my own experimenting at home 0:07:57.996 --> 0:08:07.716 and practicing, and understood that the feeling of that being 0:08:07.716 --> 0:08:13.676 different from this is like a brighter version, and then 0:08:13.676 --> 0:08:17.756 the negative version it is darker, bright and darker. That's 0:08:17.756 --> 0:08:21.116 a universal thing. You wouldn't meet a person or a 0:08:21.156 --> 0:08:25.316 creature or any living thing that does not understand bright 0:08:25.356 --> 0:08:28.156 and dark. It's like, it's such a huge thing. And 0:08:28.196 --> 0:08:31.636 obviously these things are very subjective, but musically talking, if 0:08:31.676 --> 0:08:43.996 I arrive at f Major, from there it feels very 0:08:43.996 --> 0:08:54.436 different from him. I all right, from there, I mean 0:08:54.996 --> 0:09:00.396 it's such as so exciting. That's the negative one and 0:09:00.436 --> 0:09:07.316 the perfect one being you know, so what's the negative 0:09:08.476 --> 0:09:11.276 version of the dominant seventh? He would describe it as 0:09:11.396 --> 0:09:16.036 like the four minor six chord, so in f it's 0:09:16.076 --> 0:09:20.596 B flat minor six like that, or you could also 0:09:20.676 --> 0:09:23.716 describe it as the second degree of the scale half diminished, 0:09:23.716 --> 0:09:29.676 so g half diminished to fan he diminished. Is that's 0:09:29.716 --> 0:09:32.956 the tristan chord? Yes, yeah, it is, it is, indeed, 0:09:32.996 --> 0:09:36.196 and that's something Benjamin Britten used a lot. Britain had 0:09:36.196 --> 0:09:39.396 a way with harmony which still to this day. I mean, 0:09:39.876 --> 0:09:41.556 no one has touched him for the thing that he 0:09:41.596 --> 0:09:43.596 has done. But he was one of the only composers 0:09:43.596 --> 0:09:46.316 in the twentieth century who didn't go down the twelfth 0:09:46.356 --> 0:09:48.396 tone wrote. You know, he didn't go down that the 0:09:48.396 --> 0:09:50.916 serialism route. He didn't go down the kind of neo 0:09:50.956 --> 0:09:53.676 classicism route so much, and he didn't go down the 0:09:53.756 --> 0:09:58.156 kind of austere a tonal staff for highly mathematical stuff. 0:09:58.196 --> 0:10:01.076 He just kind of continued a harmonic language on his 0:10:01.076 --> 0:10:03.916 own terms, and it was really based in kind of 0:10:03.916 --> 0:10:07.316 folk music because being English and also just I think 0:10:07.356 --> 0:10:10.436 just being so deeply involved in the harmonic language of 0:10:10.476 --> 0:10:12.276 what had just come before him, But I thought Turn 0:10:12.356 --> 0:10:14.676 of the Screw had a twelve town theme. It does 0:10:14.716 --> 0:10:22.876 have a twelve tone theme, which is yeah, that's like 0:10:22.916 --> 0:10:25.796 the opening theme, which I just absolutely love. But I 0:10:25.836 --> 0:10:28.396 guess when I say he didn't embrace twelve tonality in 0:10:28.436 --> 0:10:30.956 a total form, it was it was part of his arsenal. 0:10:31.636 --> 0:10:33.196 He would draw in it to tell a story, a 0:10:33.316 --> 0:10:38.476 harmonic story based in his otherwise kind of fruiting language. 0:10:38.476 --> 0:10:41.036 But the twelfth tone thing, there were certain people who 0:10:41.036 --> 0:10:44.156 wrote music purely based in sure that as a form, 0:10:44.196 --> 0:10:45.996 and I think Britain had a way of alcomizing all 0:10:46.036 --> 0:10:47.436 that was going on around him. But he didn't do 0:10:47.476 --> 0:10:49.116 it for that being the sake of it. He didn't 0:10:49.116 --> 0:10:50.876 live and die by that conceptually, and I think he 0:10:50.916 --> 0:10:53.636 was able to pull from it and tell these stories. 0:10:54.396 --> 0:10:57.276 The thing with Britain, to my mind is, you know 0:10:57.316 --> 0:10:59.796 he would do this chord where it's as much about 0:10:59.836 --> 0:11:04.356 the notes that aren't there then the notes that are there. 0:11:04.356 --> 0:11:07.076 You know, a chord like that. I don't know whether 0:11:07.116 --> 0:11:10.516 Britain's uses chored. Maybe he has, but you know what, 0:11:10.596 --> 0:11:12.396 do you just tell me what you're playing there? Well, 0:11:12.396 --> 0:11:15.036 that's so that chord you could describe it as like 0:11:15.036 --> 0:11:17.756 an a an a dominant chord with the ninth, but 0:11:17.836 --> 0:11:20.116 it's a very strange voicing and I don't want to 0:11:20.116 --> 0:11:22.756 call with the ninth is this right? But if you 0:11:22.796 --> 0:11:28.036 do just there's no there's no e. If I did that, 0:11:28.396 --> 0:11:31.116 it's much more palatable. But he would Britain has a 0:11:31.156 --> 0:11:35.276 way of these things shining here and your ear. Here's 0:11:35.476 --> 0:11:39.596 the gaps. It's like these big gaps, and there's there's 0:11:39.596 --> 0:11:42.716 a there's like an austerity to it, like a cold 0:11:42.796 --> 0:11:46.036 water nature to it. But there's also a huge power 0:11:46.076 --> 0:11:50.036 and a delicacy, and he's just able to command such 0:11:50.596 --> 0:11:53.996 extraordinary tapestries of color and sound. And I mean another 0:11:54.036 --> 0:11:56.236 thing that was going on in the twentieth century and 0:11:56.276 --> 0:11:58.356 even before that, I think Britain used beautifully was the 0:11:58.396 --> 0:12:01.516 idea of kind of biternality. You know, you have one 0:12:01.556 --> 0:12:03.836 part of the music in one key and then another 0:12:03.876 --> 0:12:08.676 part in it totally different key, and if you had 0:12:11.556 --> 0:12:18.516 that's something very sweet up here. Yeah, it's really kind 0:12:18.556 --> 0:12:21.236 of this is amazing. It's an amazing feeling because your 0:12:21.516 --> 0:12:23.236 your mind has led in one direction by one and 0:12:23.236 --> 0:12:25.836 one direction by the other, and there's one area in 0:12:25.876 --> 0:12:28.516 the tone of the screw called Marlow, which I sang 0:12:28.556 --> 0:12:40.476 as a boy. Yeah, And it's this beautiful, like really haunting, 0:12:40.556 --> 0:12:43.836 innocent kind of thing, and beneath it, especially towards the 0:12:43.916 --> 0:12:48.516 end of the production, all sorts of really emotional, deep 0:12:49.036 --> 0:12:52.276 cause going underneath the surface, and it just maintains this purity. So, 0:12:52.596 --> 0:12:54.756 you know, I didn't understand those cause at that age, 0:12:55.156 --> 0:12:56.756 and I mean even to this day, I haven't sat 0:12:56.756 --> 0:12:59.196 down and gone deep in analyzing them, but the feeling 0:12:59.196 --> 0:13:01.036 of being a part of those cause as a member 0:13:01.036 --> 0:13:03.516 of the cast has stayed with me for life. And 0:13:04.116 --> 0:13:06.396 the idea of being that part of the cord or 0:13:06.476 --> 0:13:08.436 outlining that part of the innocence of the court and 0:13:08.476 --> 0:13:11.876 the storyline. It's reference to the darkness underneath. I mean, 0:13:12.196 --> 0:13:14.996 it's just so rich and so beautiful. And I think 0:13:14.996 --> 0:13:18.036 that I approached that music at that time completely without 0:13:18.076 --> 0:13:20.636 analysis because I was twelve, you know, and I was 0:13:20.636 --> 0:13:22.556 missing a bunch of school. It was really exciting. I 0:13:22.636 --> 0:13:26.036 got to skypoff lessons and go to Spain and learn 0:13:26.116 --> 0:13:29.196 this really dense, rich music, and I really kind I 0:13:29.236 --> 0:13:32.156 felt like I emotionally really understood it. I understood it, 0:13:32.196 --> 0:13:34.116 you know, far more than a lot of the having 0:13:34.316 --> 0:13:36.956 mates and doing stuff that kids do and having to 0:13:37.036 --> 0:13:39.196 socialize with children. I didn't get that as much as 0:13:39.236 --> 0:13:41.036 I understood Britain. With Britain it was like, Oh, I 0:13:41.076 --> 0:13:43.276 understand what's going on here. I can I can emote 0:13:43.276 --> 0:13:46.116 and relate to this as a form. Now you said 0:13:46.156 --> 0:13:48.436 it's a different chord the way you're playing in the 0:13:48.516 --> 0:13:51.236 right hand and in the left hand. Are they related 0:13:51.276 --> 0:13:55.036 harmonically or are they two completely different thoughts? Well, they 0:13:55.036 --> 0:13:57.716 can be related harmonically. I think normally there's a sense 0:13:57.756 --> 0:14:04.436 of gravity that each holds. And in the world of Britain, 0:14:05.676 --> 0:14:07.996 this has the D major has all of its own 0:14:08.036 --> 0:14:15.316 gravities and C has its gravities at the same time, 0:14:19.316 --> 0:14:21.036 and they don't have to connect. They doesn't have to 0:14:21.036 --> 0:14:23.516 be like whoa, you know, it's just so it's so 0:14:23.596 --> 0:14:26.036 boring when you think about harmony in that in that way. 0:14:26.076 --> 0:14:27.996 So and I think I used to I used to think, 0:14:28.036 --> 0:14:30.276 if everything is a scale, I think there's one unified sound, 0:14:30.316 --> 0:14:32.756 that everything had to be connected and analyzed vertically. But 0:14:32.836 --> 0:14:34.276 now I think I'm getting more of a kick out 0:14:34.276 --> 0:14:36.796 of horizontal harmonic thinking, which I suppose it is more 0:14:36.796 --> 0:14:39.796 in line with someone like Bach who writes these amazing 0:14:39.796 --> 0:14:43.276 four part things. But he doesn't think. I don't think 0:14:43.316 --> 0:14:45.956 you necessarily thought about like, okay, F major C major. 0:14:46.316 --> 0:14:50.276 He thought, this melody is going here, and this melody 0:14:50.356 --> 0:14:53.916 is going here. They can they connect in that way, 0:14:54.076 --> 0:14:58.196 and harmony is a byproductive melody in that situation. We'll 0:14:58.196 --> 0:15:00.636 be right back with more from Ruce Eendlam and Jacob Carlier. 0:15:00.956 --> 0:15:07.836 After a quick break, we're back with more from Ruce's 0:15:07.876 --> 0:15:11.756 conversation with Jake Carlier. You have a video. You have 0:15:11.756 --> 0:15:14.676 many wonderful videos, but there's one with you and Herbie Handcart. 0:15:14.716 --> 0:15:17.476 Oh yeah, that I'm thinking of now watching your play 0:15:17.916 --> 0:15:21.316 whereas he describes, and I'm wondering if this is related 0:15:21.996 --> 0:15:24.356 in playing jazz, he says, we'll play the arrival chord 0:15:24.356 --> 0:15:26.836 in the right hand and then play the chord that's 0:15:26.876 --> 0:15:28.916 getting there in the left hand. Yeah, there's this tune 0:15:28.916 --> 0:15:31.676 that Herbie taught men called Don't Follow the Crowd, which 0:15:31.716 --> 0:15:33.596 is a killing tune. And there's one moment in the 0:15:33.596 --> 0:15:46.756 tune where it goes like that, right, So you could 0:15:46.756 --> 0:15:48.996 harmonize that as a good old fashioned A flat seven. 0:15:50.156 --> 0:15:51.676 But Herbie talks about the idea of it being a 0:15:51.756 --> 0:15:59.076 C seven, oh, which is so great. And then after there, 0:15:59.516 --> 0:16:02.516 so he thinks about the right hand being that's actually 0:16:02.516 --> 0:16:04.356 disconnected from the left hand because the left haun is 0:16:04.396 --> 0:16:08.236 going five one and the right hand's going see D flat, 0:16:08.276 --> 0:16:13.796 just chromatic, right, And Herbie would say that that comes 0:16:13.796 --> 0:16:21.316 from the twenties, you know, that kind of this, you know, 0:16:21.476 --> 0:16:25.396 rather than very chromatic. Yea chromatic approach rather than you know, functional, 0:16:27.676 --> 0:16:29.796 But I would I think my end seas was to 0:16:29.796 --> 0:16:32.236 try and think of things vertically first. So I was like, 0:16:32.516 --> 0:16:33.876 how could you fit? How can you make that fit? 0:16:36.036 --> 0:16:37.876 You know, because you've got a dominant seven and a 0:16:37.916 --> 0:16:40.236 major seven, so you actually got all three of these 0:16:40.276 --> 0:16:43.476 notes at the same time. But that's it's great, you know, 0:16:43.516 --> 0:16:45.716 And and I like it because it tears the rule 0:16:45.716 --> 0:16:47.356 book up. And I think that's also why Herbie likes 0:16:47.356 --> 0:16:49.036 because Herbie is such a maverick, you know, that guy. 0:16:49.036 --> 0:16:51.876 He loves he loves getting inside the cracks of these 0:16:51.876 --> 0:16:55.636 things and finding chords that feel right. I mean. The 0:16:55.636 --> 0:16:57.516 first time I ever met Herbie was in Montoya in 0:16:57.556 --> 0:17:00.556 Switzerland in twenty fourteen, and the first conversation we had 0:17:00.716 --> 0:17:02.196 was it was like, hey man, how you doing, and 0:17:02.236 --> 0:17:04.276 within two minutes were talking about minor ninths. It was 0:17:04.316 --> 0:17:06.356 just like, hey, man, love minor ninths. This is just 0:17:06.436 --> 0:17:10.076 minor ninth sounds like this. You know, it's really gnarly 0:17:10.156 --> 0:17:12.396 kind of but if you put a minor knights in 0:17:12.436 --> 0:17:15.476 the right place, then it can be so beautiful. So say, 0:17:15.516 --> 0:17:23.836 for example, this it's such a beautiful austere sound, you know, 0:17:23.956 --> 0:17:28.956 Or if I spread that out these kinds of bubbling sounds, 0:17:29.236 --> 0:17:31.796 there's so many cool things that you can do with 0:17:31.876 --> 0:17:34.436 that interval, which you could say is the reflection of 0:17:34.996 --> 0:17:37.876 that interval, and a major seventh is also very important interval. 0:17:38.196 --> 0:17:40.556 But it was just fun to sit in this restaurant 0:17:40.556 --> 0:17:43.396 with Herbie over chicken and we were just talking about 0:17:43.476 --> 0:17:46.396 minor knights. It was one of the most where I thought, 0:17:46.436 --> 0:17:49.556 what is my life, you know, right now sitting with 0:17:49.556 --> 0:17:52.076 Herbie Hancock and Talbot minor knights. This is crazy. You know. 0:17:52.596 --> 0:17:54.956 Over the years, Herbie has become a really great friend, 0:17:55.076 --> 0:17:57.556 you know, and also a mentor, and I think I've 0:17:57.636 --> 0:17:59.476 learned so so much from him and sitting down and 0:18:00.156 --> 0:18:02.196 listen to how he thinks and talks and plays and 0:18:03.116 --> 0:18:07.276 so many life lessons with Herbie. It's not just musical lessons. 0:18:07.276 --> 0:18:09.716 It's not sitting down Herbie shows me a hit new voicing. 0:18:09.756 --> 0:18:11.716 It's it's you know, Hobby talks so much about you 0:18:11.796 --> 0:18:15.356 permission and fearlessness and how music comes straight from life 0:18:15.396 --> 0:18:17.516 and all these kinds of things. So a minor ninth, 0:18:18.676 --> 0:18:20.956 that's not that doesn't exist in a stuffy or textbook 0:18:20.996 --> 0:18:22.476 in the back of a library and some you know, 0:18:22.556 --> 0:18:26.436 godforsaken music theory book. It exists because it holds tension 0:18:26.556 --> 0:18:31.076 in the present. Now that is the sound? Now, well, 0:18:31.116 --> 0:18:33.876 what how do you use that? It's it's so expensive, 0:18:33.916 --> 0:18:37.396 you know, what expensive thing to use? And if i'm 0:18:37.436 --> 0:18:45.756 if I'm singing wise males right, that is a minor ninth? 0:18:46.876 --> 0:18:49.436 Well I could I could equally do which is that 0:18:49.596 --> 0:18:54.636 minor night there? And suddenly it's suddenly we get into 0:18:54.676 --> 0:18:57.236 into into Britain territory again, you know, the idea of 0:18:57.756 --> 0:19:00.276 things that rob you know, Britain. Britain would use a 0:19:00.316 --> 0:19:06.916 chord like that instead of like you know, it's like 0:19:07.596 --> 0:19:09.996 a chord like this. You could call this a D 0:19:10.076 --> 0:19:13.156 eleven chord, which case and sister g well, why is 0:19:13.196 --> 0:19:15.956 that chord so emotive? Well, you could say, you know, 0:19:15.996 --> 0:19:17.996 because blah blah blah has notes center scale as well, 0:19:18.116 --> 0:19:20.236 but that's not why it's emotive. I think because the 0:19:20.356 --> 0:19:29.716 g is already home. It's already home. Britain did this 0:19:29.756 --> 0:19:33.556 wonderful arrangement of what maybe I think maybe even composed it. 0:19:33.676 --> 0:20:20.156 It's called the New Year Carol, and he goes, it's 0:20:20.156 --> 0:20:25.836 a beautiful tune and that chord. Why is that so special? 0:20:26.036 --> 0:20:32.236 Because he could have just done yeah, it does a 0:20:32.236 --> 0:20:35.596 similar thing, but no, he keeps this. He keeps it. 0:20:35.676 --> 0:20:38.236 It's like a constant. It's like I'm it's a steadfast, 0:20:38.596 --> 0:20:44.196 the steadfast at home and even though we're not at home, 0:20:45.196 --> 0:20:47.716 we've got this card. We're still home at the same time, 0:20:48.796 --> 0:20:50.356 and you've got mine at night. This is the sacred 0:20:50.436 --> 0:20:52.636 mine night is there fighting, but it's it's resolved and 0:20:52.756 --> 0:20:54.516 unresolved at the same time. I mean, that's such a 0:20:54.636 --> 0:21:04.996 human feeling. Oh, it's just beautiful and I mean that 0:21:11.516 --> 0:21:14.996 And so where does an understanding of those sounds come from? It? 0:21:15.156 --> 0:21:17.796 It doesn't come from reading books, doesn't come from taking 0:21:17.876 --> 0:21:21.476 music classes. It comes from listening with an open mind 0:21:21.556 --> 0:21:23.756 and then playing with the things that move you about 0:21:23.796 --> 0:21:31.076 it and just and getting inside a sound and you know, 0:21:32.156 --> 0:21:34.396 and again it's a lot of this stuff is so subjective. 0:21:34.476 --> 0:21:35.996 But I think that that's one thing that Britain does 0:21:36.076 --> 0:21:38.756 so well is he controls tension in a very sweet 0:21:38.796 --> 0:21:41.476 but yet very dark way, where he's able to kind 0:21:41.516 --> 0:21:45.036 of leave space for your ear to intuit a part 0:21:45.076 --> 0:21:47.396 of the harmony that is maybe even not there, or 0:21:47.636 --> 0:21:51.916 feel something visualized common tones throughout music. But I don't 0:21:51.916 --> 0:21:53.476 think he thinks about this in a theoretic where I 0:21:53.476 --> 0:21:55.316 think he just think that's just his soul, you know. 0:21:55.996 --> 0:21:58.276 You know, one of the interesting things about this album 0:21:58.556 --> 0:22:01.836 is you can hear the audience reaction and there are 0:22:01.876 --> 0:22:04.396 times you're improvising and they don't know where it's going, 0:22:04.716 --> 0:22:06.076 and I'm not sure you can even hear it, but 0:22:06.116 --> 0:22:08.676 there's a sort of tension yea. And this happens in 0:22:08.716 --> 0:22:10.716 a lot of concerts, but more so in yours, because 0:22:10.756 --> 0:22:13.916 they don't know where you're going. Suddenly you begin say 0:22:14.036 --> 0:22:16.756 let it be. You really took a long time to 0:22:16.796 --> 0:22:18.836 get to let it be. People are like, oh, that's 0:22:18.836 --> 0:22:21.716 a relief, yeah exactly. I don't think I decided necessarily 0:22:21.796 --> 0:22:23.036 that that was definitely the song I was going to 0:22:23.116 --> 0:22:30.116 play until I ended up here. I guess what interests 0:22:30.156 --> 0:22:33.756 me about it is there is this tension in popular music. 0:22:34.116 --> 0:22:36.596 And we're talking about Benjamin Britain, we're talking about Herbie Hancock, 0:22:36.636 --> 0:22:39.596 but you're very much in the pop world as well. 0:22:40.156 --> 0:22:43.916 There's always been this tension between musical knowledge and ability 0:22:43.956 --> 0:22:48.396 on one hand, and simplicity and what is thought of 0:22:48.436 --> 0:22:51.636 his sincerity on the other hand. You know, progressive rock, 0:22:52.436 --> 0:22:56.516 punk rock people prefer punk rock. Country is famously called 0:22:57.116 --> 0:22:59.316 three chords in the truth. Yeah. Right. Are there some 0:22:59.596 --> 0:23:04.956 songs that you simply can't do this level of reharmonizing 0:23:05.476 --> 0:23:07.956 on It surprised me. For example, you did Tennessee Waltz, 0:23:08.716 --> 0:23:11.756 which is very kind of traditional. It's probably a one, 0:23:11.836 --> 0:23:13.796 four or five. Yeah. Are you in the middle of 0:23:13.836 --> 0:23:17.116 some songs going you know, the song can't take this? Yeah. 0:23:17.596 --> 0:23:20.396 There are definitely moments where a song does not guide 0:23:20.436 --> 0:23:24.396 you to being reimagined heavily harmonically. There's one song on 0:23:24.436 --> 0:23:26.236 the album called all Let's Sea, which is maybe my 0:23:26.236 --> 0:23:29.036 favorite song on the album. It's a song by a 0:23:29.116 --> 0:23:31.236 guy named Jamie Cullum, who's just one of my favorite 0:23:31.316 --> 0:23:34.596 musicians from from England, and it's funny, I didn't do 0:23:34.676 --> 0:23:37.156 any rehrms or I did a couple of sneaky ones, 0:23:37.196 --> 0:23:39.876 but but I didn't fundamentally reharmonize that song because for 0:23:39.996 --> 0:23:42.436 some reason, maybe it was my mood or whatever. But 0:23:42.636 --> 0:23:45.916 but yeah, the song it just kind of I'm all, 0:23:46.236 --> 0:24:02.356 let's where no one bother Oh God, you fully for 0:24:05.796 --> 0:24:10.956 it doesn't need you know, it doesn't need that. It 0:24:11.516 --> 0:24:14.236 just it sings. And one of the joys of improvising 0:24:14.396 --> 0:24:17.156 is that you have to take yourself as how who 0:24:17.236 --> 0:24:19.116 you are on that day. So I remember when I 0:24:19.156 --> 0:24:20.916 did Tennessee Waltz, that was the fifth show in a 0:24:21.036 --> 0:24:23.596 row that we've done. We've done I think it was 0:24:23.676 --> 0:24:28.436 two Copenhagen shows, a Sweden show, one more show which 0:24:28.436 --> 0:24:30.596 I'm forgetting now, and then Oslo was the was the 0:24:30.716 --> 0:24:33.996 final of the five show. So I was exhausted, but 0:24:34.076 --> 0:24:36.516 I was also very kind of hyper. And my really 0:24:36.516 --> 0:24:41.676 difference Steane Carsonson, who's totally unbelievable Norwegian button mccordion player 0:24:41.676 --> 0:24:44.676 who also plays banjo and cabal and pedal steel. He 0:24:44.716 --> 0:24:46.876 actually brought his pedal steel for this and I asked 0:24:46.916 --> 0:24:49.276 him to sit in on the song Tennessee wats is 0:24:49.276 --> 0:24:51.116 a fun place to start because it's a song that 0:24:51.476 --> 0:24:54.436 kind of everyone knows, especially musicians, you know, really really 0:24:54.516 --> 0:25:12.316 know that song, right that. I mean, it's such a 0:25:12.396 --> 0:25:17.436 great song that actually it can survive some pretty severe departure. 0:25:18.036 --> 0:25:19.516 But I think for me that the thing I like 0:25:19.596 --> 0:25:21.676 about that performance with Stand is that I both of 0:25:21.796 --> 0:25:23.796 us have this way of climbing around and all some 0:25:23.876 --> 0:25:26.476 weird funny things, but the song is like a north star, 0:25:26.676 --> 0:25:28.476 you know, it guides us back and then we'll go 0:25:28.556 --> 0:25:31.796 off in and then Sonny will land at the song again, 0:25:31.996 --> 0:25:34.516 you know, and it brings us back home, so you know. 0:25:34.556 --> 0:25:35.956 But then again I think if I thought, oh gosh, 0:25:35.956 --> 0:25:37.956 I really shouldn't do this to the song, or oh no, 0:25:38.036 --> 0:25:40.556 that would be inappropriate, you know, or whatever thin these 0:25:40.636 --> 0:25:43.396 these principles are, I think less is less is always more, 0:25:43.756 --> 0:25:45.876 or you know, if you really have to treat things, 0:25:45.876 --> 0:25:47.756 these things with the respect and don't know, I don't 0:25:47.796 --> 0:25:50.436 think that's a that's that's not how life works. And 0:25:50.476 --> 0:25:53.356