1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:22,916 Speaker 1: Pushkin. We're back today with part two of Bruce Edlam's 2 00:00:22,956 --> 00:00:28,356 Speaker 1: conversation with YouTube sensation turned five time Grammy winner Jacob Collier. 3 00:00:28,996 --> 00:00:31,276 Speaker 1: Were left out for our last episode, with Jacob talking 4 00:00:31,316 --> 00:00:33,116 Speaker 1: about what it's like to perform to an audience of 5 00:00:33,156 --> 00:00:36,916 Speaker 1: thousands of people after growing a fan base entirely online. 6 00:00:37,356 --> 00:00:39,956 Speaker 1: In this episode, we'll hear Jacob play the piano and 7 00:00:40,036 --> 00:00:44,436 Speaker 1: go deep on music theory. It's honestly pretty extraordinary. It 8 00:00:44,516 --> 00:00:47,196 Speaker 1: isn't every day that a musician of Jacob's caliber takes 9 00:00:47,196 --> 00:00:49,156 Speaker 1: a time to sit down at a piano and really 10 00:00:49,196 --> 00:00:52,076 Speaker 1: break down his creative process in the theory behind it. 11 00:00:52,796 --> 00:00:55,436 Speaker 1: He also talks more about his new album, Piano Ballads, 12 00:00:55,876 --> 00:00:58,356 Speaker 1: and about how the old standard Moon River taught him 13 00:00:58,396 --> 00:01:02,316 Speaker 1: the power of centering his avant garde arrangements on emotions. 14 00:01:05,116 --> 00:01:08,356 Speaker 1: This is broken record liner notes for the digital age. 15 00:01:08,556 --> 00:01:13,956 Speaker 1: I'm just mich Here's Bruce Adlam and Jacob Collier. One 16 00:01:13,956 --> 00:01:18,036 Speaker 1: of your early experiences on stage, I read was you 17 00:01:18,156 --> 00:01:19,716 Speaker 1: sang in a couple of operas. I think you're sanging 18 00:01:19,796 --> 00:01:24,276 Speaker 1: Fought sec and Magic Flute. But then you did Benjamin 19 00:01:24,316 --> 00:01:27,356 Speaker 1: Britten The Turn of the Screw, and you said I 20 00:01:27,396 --> 00:01:30,116 Speaker 1: think it was his harmonies like blew your mind or something. 21 00:01:30,716 --> 00:01:32,756 Speaker 1: Now I thought I would have to sit here and 22 00:01:32,796 --> 00:01:35,636 Speaker 1: pretend to understand Benjamin Britten, and that was making me 23 00:01:35,756 --> 00:01:38,436 Speaker 1: very nervous. And I do like the interludes from from 24 00:01:38,476 --> 00:01:42,116 Speaker 1: Peter grind. Since I didn't know, I reached out to 25 00:01:42,156 --> 00:01:45,356 Speaker 1: two people who do know. One's my brother Phil, who's 26 00:01:45,356 --> 00:01:47,476 Speaker 1: a conductor in Europe. Actually he used to teach at 27 00:01:47,476 --> 00:01:49,636 Speaker 1: the Royal Academy. Oh did I think? Yeah? And my 28 00:01:49,676 --> 00:01:52,636 Speaker 1: other is my brother Dave, who's he's a music theorist 29 00:01:52,636 --> 00:01:56,116 Speaker 1: at Eastman wonderful. So I said, what do I possibly 30 00:01:56,156 --> 00:01:59,316 Speaker 1: say about this? They say, Britain's harmonies not defined by 31 00:01:59,356 --> 00:02:02,756 Speaker 1: something in and of itself, but here's how they related 32 00:02:02,796 --> 00:02:05,076 Speaker 1: to you. And maybe this is why you liked it 33 00:02:05,156 --> 00:02:10,676 Speaker 1: so much. Your negative harmony uses what theorist Carl Inversion 34 00:02:11,276 --> 00:02:13,636 Speaker 1: tell me about negative harmony and how you use it. 35 00:02:14,716 --> 00:02:19,596 Speaker 1: So negative harmony is quite an ancient idea. It's an 36 00:02:19,636 --> 00:02:22,756 Speaker 1: idea based in polarity. So the idea that what goes 37 00:02:22,836 --> 00:02:25,596 Speaker 1: up must go down. You know, a tree has branches 38 00:02:25,636 --> 00:02:27,596 Speaker 1: that grow up and roots that grow down, and it 39 00:02:27,876 --> 00:02:30,556 Speaker 1: happens in nature. And so I had a teacher of 40 00:02:30,596 --> 00:02:32,036 Speaker 1: mine when I was at the roy Academy for a 41 00:02:32,076 --> 00:02:34,756 Speaker 1: couple of years. His name is Barack Schmoore, and Barrack 42 00:02:34,836 --> 00:02:37,316 Speaker 1: studied with a very very great saxophon play called Steve Coleman. 43 00:02:37,756 --> 00:02:40,596 Speaker 1: And Steve Coleman is just one of the deepest musicians 44 00:02:40,596 --> 00:02:43,996 Speaker 1: who's alive, and he has got very deep into studying 45 00:02:44,476 --> 00:02:46,956 Speaker 1: certain musicians. There's one that he cites. His name is 46 00:02:46,996 --> 00:02:49,076 Speaker 1: Ernst Levy, who wrote a book called A Theory of 47 00:02:49,076 --> 00:02:51,196 Speaker 1: Harmony and and I've dipped into this book and it's 48 00:02:51,276 --> 00:02:54,956 Speaker 1: it's dense but fascinating, and the idea is actually really simple, 49 00:02:54,996 --> 00:02:56,276 Speaker 1: you know. It's it's the idea that if you have 50 00:02:56,316 --> 00:03:02,196 Speaker 1: a melody that goes you know, and you reverse every direction, 51 00:03:04,396 --> 00:03:07,236 Speaker 1: what goes up must go down. So the reflection of 52 00:03:07,276 --> 00:03:12,036 Speaker 1: this is this, right, So when you see the reflection, 53 00:03:12,276 --> 00:03:14,156 Speaker 1: if there's a full tone up, it's a full tone 54 00:03:14,196 --> 00:03:15,996 Speaker 1: down exactly. Yeah, It's like you put a mirror at 55 00:03:16,036 --> 00:03:18,156 Speaker 1: this note and this is upper tone, so that goes 56 00:03:18,196 --> 00:03:24,636 Speaker 1: down a tone right like that. So the idea is 57 00:03:24,716 --> 00:03:27,076 Speaker 1: very simple. So Steve has has thought about this as 58 00:03:27,076 --> 00:03:30,436 Speaker 1: a melodic idea, you know, so a phrase, you know, 59 00:03:31,476 --> 00:03:36,036 Speaker 1: like that you know, and and if I flipped that 60 00:03:36,076 --> 00:03:48,716 Speaker 1: as yeah, that's the reflection that kind of thing. So 61 00:03:49,116 --> 00:03:52,556 Speaker 1: it's a really amazing melodic device. But for me, I mean, 62 00:03:52,796 --> 00:03:54,716 Speaker 1: you know me, I'm all about the harmony. So I 63 00:03:54,756 --> 00:03:56,676 Speaker 1: think the thing that I gravitated towards the most was 64 00:03:56,796 --> 00:03:59,956 Speaker 1: that this in a harmonic sense. So if I'm if 65 00:03:59,956 --> 00:04:03,156 Speaker 1: I'm in the key of F major in classical music, 66 00:04:03,236 --> 00:04:05,236 Speaker 1: you think, what how would I get to F major? 67 00:04:05,236 --> 00:04:09,796 Speaker 1: While we get there from a C seven chord? Right? 68 00:04:11,876 --> 00:04:16,116 Speaker 1: So I say five one. So what earned S. Levey 69 00:04:16,196 --> 00:04:20,076 Speaker 1: describes as one possible access of reflection is the idea 70 00:04:20,076 --> 00:04:22,996 Speaker 1: of you take you take F and C, which is 71 00:04:22,996 --> 00:04:26,676 Speaker 1: our kind of home key, and this this F and 72 00:04:26,916 --> 00:04:29,516 Speaker 1: F and c the note but exactly between F and C, 73 00:04:29,716 --> 00:04:33,076 Speaker 1: so that them as a duo that becomes the reflection point, 74 00:04:33,116 --> 00:04:38,996 Speaker 1: the mirror. And if I reflect C seven over that access, 75 00:04:40,756 --> 00:04:57,116 Speaker 1: then you come up with this sound. Right. So, and 76 00:04:57,196 --> 00:04:59,036 Speaker 1: I mean you can imagine when I first say this, 77 00:04:59,116 --> 00:05:02,796 Speaker 1: I thought, oh man, that's so thrilling the idea that 78 00:05:02,676 --> 00:05:05,956 Speaker 1: the reflection of the dominant chord is as it's as 79 00:05:06,076 --> 00:05:09,116 Speaker 1: led to the key. Because if you think about C seven, 80 00:05:10,596 --> 00:05:12,436 Speaker 1: this note, which is a B flat. This wants to sink. 81 00:05:14,436 --> 00:05:21,236 Speaker 1: That's where it wants to go. Right, So you've got 82 00:05:21,276 --> 00:05:23,996 Speaker 1: this don't wants to this, don't wants to sink. That 83 00:05:24,036 --> 00:05:27,276 Speaker 1: note wants to rise, and in this that note wants 84 00:05:27,316 --> 00:05:32,436 Speaker 1: to sink, so that the gravity is equivalent that That's 85 00:05:32,476 --> 00:05:33,876 Speaker 1: the crazy thing is that it's the same amount of 86 00:05:33,916 --> 00:05:41,596 Speaker 1: gravity to f but it's reflected. So in classical music 87 00:05:41,636 --> 00:05:43,036 Speaker 1: you might have or even in jazz you might have 88 00:05:43,076 --> 00:05:54,876 Speaker 1: something like six two five one games And so if 89 00:05:54,916 --> 00:05:58,596 Speaker 1: you do that with negative harmony, you get this amazing 90 00:06:06,756 --> 00:06:15,076 Speaker 1: like that. It's a different flavor. So you say, how 91 00:06:15,076 --> 00:06:17,876 Speaker 1: do I use it? Well, I'm not. I wouldn't claim 92 00:06:17,916 --> 00:06:21,556 Speaker 1: to have the deepest understanding of polarity in all of 93 00:06:21,596 --> 00:06:23,996 Speaker 1: its permutations musically, but I think that the concept of 94 00:06:24,036 --> 00:06:28,556 Speaker 1: that really got me excited because in a very basic way, 95 00:06:28,716 --> 00:06:31,716 Speaker 1: it's it's plegalizing every perfect cadence. And when we see 96 00:06:31,716 --> 00:06:33,836 Speaker 1: plagueal cadence, it's like a four one instead of a 97 00:06:33,836 --> 00:06:37,196 Speaker 1: five one. So five one is this and four one 98 00:06:38,276 --> 00:06:40,836 Speaker 1: is this? Right, it's almost like a more of a 99 00:06:40,876 --> 00:06:47,756 Speaker 1: gospel sound. So rather than going yeah right, it's going 100 00:06:49,916 --> 00:06:52,116 Speaker 1: like what James Taylor would do? You know or Joanie. 101 00:06:52,156 --> 00:07:01,436 Speaker 1: If if Joanie goes, oh, what she doesn't do is 102 00:07:05,116 --> 00:07:25,356 Speaker 1: she goes right, and then right there's plaguels to plaguel cans, 103 00:07:25,796 --> 00:07:27,836 Speaker 1: and then it's a plaguel cans on the plaguel cans, 104 00:07:28,076 --> 00:07:29,396 Speaker 1: and you can even do a plague one on that 105 00:07:29,476 --> 00:07:30,836 Speaker 1: and then on that, so you can actually do like 106 00:07:33,756 --> 00:07:46,196 Speaker 1: instead of And that's so cool to me. Four four 107 00:07:46,276 --> 00:07:49,516 Speaker 1: four one. And so do I think about this one? 108 00:07:49,516 --> 00:07:52,876 Speaker 1: I'm improvising plane babs on stage consciously. No. But what 109 00:07:52,916 --> 00:07:55,396 Speaker 1: I have done is familiarize myself with the materials of 110 00:07:55,556 --> 00:07:57,996 Speaker 1: what that feels like in my own experimenting at home 111 00:07:57,996 --> 00:08:07,716 Speaker 1: and practicing, and understood that the feeling of that being 112 00:08:07,716 --> 00:08:13,676 Speaker 1: different from this is like a brighter version, and then 113 00:08:13,676 --> 00:08:17,756 Speaker 1: the negative version it is darker, bright and darker. That's 114 00:08:17,756 --> 00:08:21,116 Speaker 1: a universal thing. You wouldn't meet a person or a 115 00:08:21,156 --> 00:08:25,316 Speaker 1: creature or any living thing that does not understand bright 116 00:08:25,356 --> 00:08:28,156 Speaker 1: and dark. It's like, it's such a huge thing. And 117 00:08:28,196 --> 00:08:31,636 Speaker 1: obviously these things are very subjective, but musically talking, if 118 00:08:31,676 --> 00:08:43,996 Speaker 1: I arrive at f Major, from there it feels very 119 00:08:43,996 --> 00:08:54,436 Speaker 1: different from him. I all right, from there, I mean 120 00:08:54,996 --> 00:09:00,396 Speaker 1: it's such as so exciting. That's the negative one and 121 00:09:00,436 --> 00:09:07,316 Speaker 1: the perfect one being you know, so what's the negative 122 00:09:08,476 --> 00:09:11,276 Speaker 1: version of the dominant seventh? He would describe it as 123 00:09:11,396 --> 00:09:16,036 Speaker 1: like the four minor six chord, so in f it's 124 00:09:16,076 --> 00:09:20,596 Speaker 1: B flat minor six like that, or you could also 125 00:09:20,676 --> 00:09:23,716 Speaker 1: describe it as the second degree of the scale half diminished, 126 00:09:23,716 --> 00:09:29,676 Speaker 1: so g half diminished to fan he diminished. Is that's 127 00:09:29,716 --> 00:09:32,956 Speaker 1: the tristan chord? Yes, yeah, it is, it is, indeed, 128 00:09:32,996 --> 00:09:36,196 Speaker 1: and that's something Benjamin Britten used a lot. Britain had 129 00:09:36,196 --> 00:09:39,396 Speaker 1: a way with harmony which still to this day. I mean, 130 00:09:39,876 --> 00:09:41,556 Speaker 1: no one has touched him for the thing that he 131 00:09:41,596 --> 00:09:43,596 Speaker 1: has done. But he was one of the only composers 132 00:09:43,596 --> 00:09:46,316 Speaker 1: in the twentieth century who didn't go down the twelfth 133 00:09:46,356 --> 00:09:48,396 Speaker 1: tone wrote. You know, he didn't go down that the 134 00:09:48,396 --> 00:09:50,916 Speaker 1: serialism route. He didn't go down the kind of neo 135 00:09:50,956 --> 00:09:53,676 Speaker 1: classicism route so much, and he didn't go down the 136 00:09:53,756 --> 00:09:58,156 Speaker 1: kind of austere a tonal staff for highly mathematical stuff. 137 00:09:58,196 --> 00:10:01,076 Speaker 1: He just kind of continued a harmonic language on his 138 00:10:01,076 --> 00:10:03,916 Speaker 1: own terms, and it was really based in kind of 139 00:10:03,916 --> 00:10:07,316 Speaker 1: folk music because being English and also just I think 140 00:10:07,356 --> 00:10:10,436 Speaker 1: just being so deeply involved in the harmonic language of 141 00:10:10,476 --> 00:10:12,276 Speaker 1: what had just come before him, But I thought Turn 142 00:10:12,356 --> 00:10:14,676 Speaker 1: of the Screw had a twelve town theme. It does 143 00:10:14,716 --> 00:10:22,876 Speaker 1: have a twelve tone theme, which is yeah, that's like 144 00:10:22,916 --> 00:10:25,796 Speaker 1: the opening theme, which I just absolutely love. But I 145 00:10:25,836 --> 00:10:28,396 Speaker 1: guess when I say he didn't embrace twelve tonality in 146 00:10:28,436 --> 00:10:30,956 Speaker 1: a total form, it was it was part of his arsenal. 147 00:10:31,636 --> 00:10:33,196 Speaker 1: He would draw in it to tell a story, a 148 00:10:33,316 --> 00:10:38,476 Speaker 1: harmonic story based in his otherwise kind of fruiting language. 149 00:10:38,476 --> 00:10:41,036 Speaker 1: But the twelfth tone thing, there were certain people who 150 00:10:41,036 --> 00:10:44,156 Speaker 1: wrote music purely based in sure that as a form, 151 00:10:44,196 --> 00:10:45,996 Speaker 1: and I think Britain had a way of alcomizing all 152 00:10:46,036 --> 00:10:47,436 Speaker 1: that was going on around him. But he didn't do 153 00:10:47,476 --> 00:10:49,116 Speaker 1: it for that being the sake of it. He didn't 154 00:10:49,116 --> 00:10:50,876 Speaker 1: live and die by that conceptually, and I think he 155 00:10:50,916 --> 00:10:53,636 Speaker 1: was able to pull from it and tell these stories. 156 00:10:54,396 --> 00:10:57,276 Speaker 1: The thing with Britain, to my mind is, you know 157 00:10:57,316 --> 00:10:59,796 Speaker 1: he would do this chord where it's as much about 158 00:10:59,836 --> 00:11:04,356 Speaker 1: the notes that aren't there then the notes that are there. 159 00:11:04,356 --> 00:11:07,076 Speaker 1: You know, a chord like that. I don't know whether 160 00:11:07,116 --> 00:11:10,516 Speaker 1: Britain's uses chored. Maybe he has, but you know what, 161 00:11:10,596 --> 00:11:12,396 Speaker 1: do you just tell me what you're playing there? Well, 162 00:11:12,396 --> 00:11:15,036 Speaker 1: that's so that chord you could describe it as like 163 00:11:15,036 --> 00:11:17,756 Speaker 1: an a an a dominant chord with the ninth, but 164 00:11:17,836 --> 00:11:20,116 Speaker 1: it's a very strange voicing and I don't want to 165 00:11:20,116 --> 00:11:22,756 Speaker 1: call with the ninth is this right? But if you 166 00:11:22,796 --> 00:11:28,036 Speaker 1: do just there's no there's no e. If I did that, 167 00:11:28,396 --> 00:11:31,116 Speaker 1: it's much more palatable. But he would Britain has a 168 00:11:31,156 --> 00:11:35,276 Speaker 1: way of these things shining here and your ear. Here's 169 00:11:35,476 --> 00:11:39,596 Speaker 1: the gaps. It's like these big gaps, and there's there's 170 00:11:39,596 --> 00:11:42,716 Speaker 1: a there's like an austerity to it, like a cold 171 00:11:42,796 --> 00:11:46,036 Speaker 1: water nature to it. But there's also a huge power 172 00:11:46,076 --> 00:11:50,036 Speaker 1: and a delicacy, and he's just able to command such 173 00:11:50,596 --> 00:11:53,996 Speaker 1: extraordinary tapestries of color and sound. And I mean another 174 00:11:54,036 --> 00:11:56,236 Speaker 1: thing that was going on in the twentieth century and 175 00:11:56,276 --> 00:11:58,356 Speaker 1: even before that, I think Britain used beautifully was the 176 00:11:58,396 --> 00:12:01,516 Speaker 1: idea of kind of biternality. You know, you have one 177 00:12:01,556 --> 00:12:03,836 Speaker 1: part of the music in one key and then another 178 00:12:03,876 --> 00:12:08,676 Speaker 1: part in it totally different key, and if you had 179 00:12:11,556 --> 00:12:18,516 Speaker 1: that's something very sweet up here. Yeah, it's really kind 180 00:12:18,556 --> 00:12:21,236 Speaker 1: of this is amazing. It's an amazing feeling because your 181 00:12:21,516 --> 00:12:23,236 Speaker 1: your mind has led in one direction by one and 182 00:12:23,236 --> 00:12:25,836 Speaker 1: one direction by the other, and there's one area in 183 00:12:25,876 --> 00:12:28,516 Speaker 1: the tone of the screw called Marlow, which I sang 184 00:12:28,556 --> 00:12:40,476 Speaker 1: as a boy. Yeah, And it's this beautiful, like really haunting, 185 00:12:40,556 --> 00:12:43,836 Speaker 1: innocent kind of thing, and beneath it, especially towards the 186 00:12:43,916 --> 00:12:48,516 Speaker 1: end of the production, all sorts of really emotional, deep 187 00:12:49,036 --> 00:12:52,276 Speaker 1: cause going underneath the surface, and it just maintains this purity. So, 188 00:12:52,596 --> 00:12:54,756 Speaker 1: you know, I didn't understand those cause at that age, 189 00:12:55,156 --> 00:12:56,756 Speaker 1: and I mean even to this day, I haven't sat 190 00:12:56,756 --> 00:12:59,196 Speaker 1: down and gone deep in analyzing them, but the feeling 191 00:12:59,196 --> 00:13:01,036 Speaker 1: of being a part of those cause as a member 192 00:13:01,036 --> 00:13:03,516 Speaker 1: of the cast has stayed with me for life. And 193 00:13:04,116 --> 00:13:06,396 Speaker 1: the idea of being that part of the cord or 194 00:13:06,476 --> 00:13:08,436 Speaker 1: outlining that part of the innocence of the court and 195 00:13:08,476 --> 00:13:11,876 Speaker 1: the storyline. It's reference to the darkness underneath. I mean, 196 00:13:12,196 --> 00:13:14,996 Speaker 1: it's just so rich and so beautiful. And I think 197 00:13:14,996 --> 00:13:18,036 Speaker 1: that I approached that music at that time completely without 198 00:13:18,076 --> 00:13:20,636 Speaker 1: analysis because I was twelve, you know, and I was 199 00:13:20,636 --> 00:13:22,556 Speaker 1: missing a bunch of school. It was really exciting. I 200 00:13:22,636 --> 00:13:26,036 Speaker 1: got to skypoff lessons and go to Spain and learn 201 00:13:26,116 --> 00:13:29,196 Speaker 1: this really dense, rich music, and I really kind I 202 00:13:29,236 --> 00:13:32,156 Speaker 1: felt like I emotionally really understood it. I understood it, 203 00:13:32,196 --> 00:13:34,116 Speaker 1: you know, far more than a lot of the having 204 00:13:34,316 --> 00:13:36,956 Speaker 1: mates and doing stuff that kids do and having to 205 00:13:37,036 --> 00:13:39,196 Speaker 1: socialize with children. I didn't get that as much as 206 00:13:39,236 --> 00:13:41,036 Speaker 1: I understood Britain. With Britain it was like, Oh, I 207 00:13:41,076 --> 00:13:43,276 Speaker 1: understand what's going on here. I can I can emote 208 00:13:43,276 --> 00:13:46,116 Speaker 1: and relate to this as a form. Now you said 209 00:13:46,156 --> 00:13:48,436 Speaker 1: it's a different chord the way you're playing in the 210 00:13:48,516 --> 00:13:51,236 Speaker 1: right hand and in the left hand. Are they related 211 00:13:51,276 --> 00:13:55,036 Speaker 1: harmonically or are they two completely different thoughts? Well, they 212 00:13:55,036 --> 00:13:57,716 Speaker 1: can be related harmonically. I think normally there's a sense 213 00:13:57,756 --> 00:14:04,436 Speaker 1: of gravity that each holds. And in the world of Britain, 214 00:14:05,676 --> 00:14:07,996 Speaker 1: this has the D major has all of its own 215 00:14:08,036 --> 00:14:15,316 Speaker 1: gravities and C has its gravities at the same time, 216 00:14:19,316 --> 00:14:21,036 Speaker 1: and they don't have to connect. They doesn't have to 217 00:14:21,036 --> 00:14:23,516 Speaker 1: be like whoa, you know, it's just so it's so 218 00:14:23,596 --> 00:14:26,036 Speaker 1: boring when you think about harmony in that in that way. 219 00:14:26,076 --> 00:14:27,996 Speaker 1: So and I think I used to I used to think, 220 00:14:28,036 --> 00:14:30,276 Speaker 1: if everything is a scale, I think there's one unified sound, 221 00:14:30,316 --> 00:14:32,756 Speaker 1: that everything had to be connected and analyzed vertically. But 222 00:14:32,836 --> 00:14:34,276 Speaker 1: now I think I'm getting more of a kick out 223 00:14:34,276 --> 00:14:36,796 Speaker 1: of horizontal harmonic thinking, which I suppose it is more 224 00:14:36,796 --> 00:14:39,796 Speaker 1: in line with someone like Bach who writes these amazing 225 00:14:39,796 --> 00:14:43,276 Speaker 1: four part things. But he doesn't think. I don't think 226 00:14:43,316 --> 00:14:45,956 Speaker 1: you necessarily thought about like, okay, F major C major. 227 00:14:46,316 --> 00:14:50,276 Speaker 1: He thought, this melody is going here, and this melody 228 00:14:50,356 --> 00:14:53,916 Speaker 1: is going here. They can they connect in that way, 229 00:14:54,076 --> 00:14:58,196 Speaker 1: and harmony is a byproductive melody in that situation. We'll 230 00:14:58,196 --> 00:15:00,636 Speaker 1: be right back with more from Ruce Eendlam and Jacob Carlier. 231 00:15:00,956 --> 00:15:07,836 Speaker 1: After a quick break, we're back with more from Ruce's 232 00:15:07,876 --> 00:15:11,756 Speaker 1: conversation with Jake Carlier. You have a video. You have 233 00:15:11,756 --> 00:15:14,676 Speaker 1: many wonderful videos, but there's one with you and Herbie Handcart. 234 00:15:14,716 --> 00:15:17,476 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that I'm thinking of now watching your play 235 00:15:17,916 --> 00:15:21,316 Speaker 1: whereas he describes, and I'm wondering if this is related 236 00:15:21,996 --> 00:15:24,356 Speaker 1: in playing jazz, he says, we'll play the arrival chord 237 00:15:24,356 --> 00:15:26,836 Speaker 1: in the right hand and then play the chord that's 238 00:15:26,876 --> 00:15:28,916 Speaker 1: getting there in the left hand. Yeah, there's this tune 239 00:15:28,916 --> 00:15:31,676 Speaker 1: that Herbie taught men called Don't Follow the Crowd, which 240 00:15:31,716 --> 00:15:33,596 Speaker 1: is a killing tune. And there's one moment in the 241 00:15:33,596 --> 00:15:46,756 Speaker 1: tune where it goes like that, right, So you could 242 00:15:46,756 --> 00:15:48,996 Speaker 1: harmonize that as a good old fashioned A flat seven. 243 00:15:50,156 --> 00:15:51,676 Speaker 1: But Herbie talks about the idea of it being a 244 00:15:51,756 --> 00:15:59,076 Speaker 1: C seven, oh, which is so great. And then after there, 245 00:15:59,516 --> 00:16:02,516 Speaker 1: so he thinks about the right hand being that's actually 246 00:16:02,516 --> 00:16:04,356 Speaker 1: disconnected from the left hand because the left haun is 247 00:16:04,396 --> 00:16:08,236 Speaker 1: going five one and the right hand's going see D flat, 248 00:16:08,276 --> 00:16:13,796 Speaker 1: just chromatic, right, And Herbie would say that that comes 249 00:16:13,796 --> 00:16:21,316 Speaker 1: from the twenties, you know, that kind of this, you know, 250 00:16:21,476 --> 00:16:25,396 Speaker 1: rather than very chromatic. Yea chromatic approach rather than you know, functional, 251 00:16:27,676 --> 00:16:29,796 Speaker 1: But I would I think my end seas was to 252 00:16:29,796 --> 00:16:32,236 Speaker 1: try and think of things vertically first. So I was like, 253 00:16:32,516 --> 00:16:33,876 Speaker 1: how could you fit? How can you make that fit? 254 00:16:36,036 --> 00:16:37,876 Speaker 1: You know, because you've got a dominant seven and a 255 00:16:37,916 --> 00:16:40,236 Speaker 1: major seven, so you actually got all three of these 256 00:16:40,276 --> 00:16:43,476 Speaker 1: notes at the same time. But that's it's great, you know, 257 00:16:43,516 --> 00:16:45,716 Speaker 1: And and I like it because it tears the rule 258 00:16:45,716 --> 00:16:47,356 Speaker 1: book up. And I think that's also why Herbie likes 259 00:16:47,356 --> 00:16:49,036 Speaker 1: because Herbie is such a maverick, you know, that guy. 260 00:16:49,036 --> 00:16:51,876 Speaker 1: He loves he loves getting inside the cracks of these 261 00:16:51,876 --> 00:16:55,636 Speaker 1: things and finding chords that feel right. I mean. The 262 00:16:55,636 --> 00:16:57,516 Speaker 1: first time I ever met Herbie was in Montoya in 263 00:16:57,556 --> 00:17:00,556 Speaker 1: Switzerland in twenty fourteen, and the first conversation we had 264 00:17:00,716 --> 00:17:02,196 Speaker 1: was it was like, hey man, how you doing, and 265 00:17:02,236 --> 00:17:04,276 Speaker 1: within two minutes were talking about minor ninths. It was 266 00:17:04,316 --> 00:17:06,356 Speaker 1: just like, hey, man, love minor ninths. This is just 267 00:17:06,436 --> 00:17:10,076 Speaker 1: minor ninth sounds like this. You know, it's really gnarly 268 00:17:10,156 --> 00:17:12,396 Speaker 1: kind of but if you put a minor knights in 269 00:17:12,436 --> 00:17:15,476 Speaker 1: the right place, then it can be so beautiful. So say, 270 00:17:15,516 --> 00:17:23,836 Speaker 1: for example, this it's such a beautiful austere sound, you know, 271 00:17:23,956 --> 00:17:28,956 Speaker 1: Or if I spread that out these kinds of bubbling sounds, 272 00:17:29,236 --> 00:17:31,796 Speaker 1: there's so many cool things that you can do with 273 00:17:31,876 --> 00:17:34,436 Speaker 1: that interval, which you could say is the reflection of 274 00:17:34,996 --> 00:17:37,876 Speaker 1: that interval, and a major seventh is also very important interval. 275 00:17:38,196 --> 00:17:40,556 Speaker 1: But it was just fun to sit in this restaurant 276 00:17:40,556 --> 00:17:43,396 Speaker 1: with Herbie over chicken and we were just talking about 277 00:17:43,476 --> 00:17:46,396 Speaker 1: minor knights. It was one of the most where I thought, 278 00:17:46,436 --> 00:17:49,556 Speaker 1: what is my life, you know, right now sitting with 279 00:17:49,556 --> 00:17:52,076 Speaker 1: Herbie Hancock and Talbot minor knights. This is crazy. You know. 280 00:17:52,596 --> 00:17:54,956 Speaker 1: Over the years, Herbie has become a really great friend, 281 00:17:55,076 --> 00:17:57,556 Speaker 1: you know, and also a mentor, and I think I've 282 00:17:57,636 --> 00:17:59,476 Speaker 1: learned so so much from him and sitting down and 283 00:18:00,156 --> 00:18:02,196 Speaker 1: listen to how he thinks and talks and plays and 284 00:18:03,116 --> 00:18:07,276 Speaker 1: so many life lessons with Herbie. It's not just musical lessons. 285 00:18:07,276 --> 00:18:09,716 Speaker 1: It's not sitting down Herbie shows me a hit new voicing. 286 00:18:09,756 --> 00:18:11,716 Speaker 1: It's it's you know, Hobby talks so much about you 287 00:18:11,796 --> 00:18:15,356 Speaker 1: permission and fearlessness and how music comes straight from life 288 00:18:15,396 --> 00:18:17,516 Speaker 1: and all these kinds of things. So a minor ninth, 289 00:18:18,676 --> 00:18:20,956 Speaker 1: that's not that doesn't exist in a stuffy or textbook 290 00:18:20,996 --> 00:18:22,476 Speaker 1: in the back of a library and some you know, 291 00:18:22,556 --> 00:18:26,436 Speaker 1: godforsaken music theory book. It exists because it holds tension 292 00:18:26,556 --> 00:18:31,076 Speaker 1: in the present. Now that is the sound? Now, well, 293 00:18:31,116 --> 00:18:33,876 Speaker 1: what how do you use that? It's it's so expensive, 294 00:18:33,916 --> 00:18:37,396 Speaker 1: you know, what expensive thing to use? And if i'm 295 00:18:37,436 --> 00:18:45,756 Speaker 1: if I'm singing wise males right, that is a minor ninth? 296 00:18:46,876 --> 00:18:49,436 Speaker 1: Well I could I could equally do which is that 297 00:18:49,596 --> 00:18:54,636 Speaker 1: minor night there? And suddenly it's suddenly we get into 298 00:18:54,676 --> 00:18:57,236 Speaker 1: into into Britain territory again, you know, the idea of 299 00:18:57,756 --> 00:19:00,276 Speaker 1: things that rob you know, Britain. Britain would use a 300 00:19:00,316 --> 00:19:06,916 Speaker 1: chord like that instead of like you know, it's like 301 00:19:07,596 --> 00:19:09,996 Speaker 1: a chord like this. You could call this a D 302 00:19:10,076 --> 00:19:13,156 Speaker 1: eleven chord, which case and sister g well, why is 303 00:19:13,196 --> 00:19:15,956 Speaker 1: that chord so emotive? Well, you could say, you know, 304 00:19:15,996 --> 00:19:17,996 Speaker 1: because blah blah blah has notes center scale as well, 305 00:19:18,116 --> 00:19:20,236 Speaker 1: but that's not why it's emotive. I think because the 306 00:19:20,356 --> 00:19:29,716 Speaker 1: g is already home. It's already home. Britain did this 307 00:19:29,756 --> 00:19:33,556 Speaker 1: wonderful arrangement of what maybe I think maybe even composed it. 308 00:19:33,676 --> 00:20:20,156 Speaker 1: It's called the New Year Carol, and he goes, it's 309 00:20:20,156 --> 00:20:25,836 Speaker 1: a beautiful tune and that chord. Why is that so special? 310 00:20:26,036 --> 00:20:32,236 Speaker 1: Because he could have just done yeah, it does a 311 00:20:32,236 --> 00:20:35,596 Speaker 1: similar thing, but no, he keeps this. He keeps it. 312 00:20:35,676 --> 00:20:38,236 Speaker 1: It's like a constant. It's like I'm it's a steadfast, 313 00:20:38,596 --> 00:20:44,196 Speaker 1: the steadfast at home and even though we're not at home, 314 00:20:45,196 --> 00:20:47,716 Speaker 1: we've got this card. We're still home at the same time, 315 00:20:48,796 --> 00:20:50,356 Speaker 1: and you've got mine at night. This is the sacred 316 00:20:50,436 --> 00:20:52,636 Speaker 1: mine night is there fighting, but it's it's resolved and 317 00:20:52,756 --> 00:20:54,516 Speaker 1: unresolved at the same time. I mean, that's such a 318 00:20:54,636 --> 00:21:04,996 Speaker 1: human feeling. Oh, it's just beautiful and I mean that 319 00:21:11,516 --> 00:21:14,996 Speaker 1: And so where does an understanding of those sounds come from? It? 320 00:21:15,156 --> 00:21:17,796 Speaker 1: It doesn't come from reading books, doesn't come from taking 321 00:21:17,876 --> 00:21:21,476 Speaker 1: music classes. It comes from listening with an open mind 322 00:21:21,556 --> 00:21:23,756 Speaker 1: and then playing with the things that move you about 323 00:21:23,796 --> 00:21:31,076 Speaker 1: it and just and getting inside a sound and you know, 324 00:21:32,156 --> 00:21:34,396 Speaker 1: and again it's a lot of this stuff is so subjective. 325 00:21:34,476 --> 00:21:35,996 Speaker 1: But I think that that's one thing that Britain does 326 00:21:36,076 --> 00:21:38,756 Speaker 1: so well is he controls tension in a very sweet 327 00:21:38,796 --> 00:21:41,476 Speaker 1: but yet very dark way, where he's able to kind 328 00:21:41,516 --> 00:21:45,036 Speaker 1: of leave space for your ear to intuit a part 329 00:21:45,076 --> 00:21:47,396 Speaker 1: of the harmony that is maybe even not there, or 330 00:21:47,636 --> 00:21:51,916 Speaker 1: feel something visualized common tones throughout music. But I don't 331 00:21:51,916 --> 00:21:53,476 Speaker 1: think he thinks about this in a theoretic where I 332 00:21:53,476 --> 00:21:55,316 Speaker 1: think he just think that's just his soul, you know. 333 00:21:55,996 --> 00:21:58,276 Speaker 1: You know, one of the interesting things about this album 334 00:21:58,556 --> 00:22:01,836 Speaker 1: is you can hear the audience reaction and there are 335 00:22:01,876 --> 00:22:04,396 Speaker 1: times you're improvising and they don't know where it's going, 336 00:22:04,716 --> 00:22:06,076 Speaker 1: and I'm not sure you can even hear it, but 337 00:22:06,116 --> 00:22:08,676 Speaker 1: there's a sort of tension yea. And this happens in 338 00:22:08,716 --> 00:22:10,716 Speaker 1: a lot of concerts, but more so in yours, because 339 00:22:10,756 --> 00:22:13,916 Speaker 1: they don't know where you're going. Suddenly you begin say 340 00:22:14,036 --> 00:22:16,756 Speaker 1: let it be. You really took a long time to 341 00:22:16,796 --> 00:22:18,836 Speaker 1: get to let it be. People are like, oh, that's 342 00:22:18,836 --> 00:22:21,716 Speaker 1: a relief, yeah exactly. I don't think I decided necessarily 343 00:22:21,796 --> 00:22:23,036 Speaker 1: that that was definitely the song I was going to 344 00:22:23,116 --> 00:22:30,116 Speaker 1: play until I ended up here. I guess what interests 345 00:22:30,156 --> 00:22:33,756 Speaker 1: me about it is there is this tension in popular music. 346 00:22:34,116 --> 00:22:36,596 Speaker 1: And we're talking about Benjamin Britain, we're talking about Herbie Hancock, 347 00:22:36,636 --> 00:22:39,596 Speaker 1: but you're very much in the pop world as well. 348 00:22:40,156 --> 00:22:43,916 Speaker 1: There's always been this tension between musical knowledge and ability 349 00:22:43,956 --> 00:22:48,396 Speaker 1: on one hand, and simplicity and what is thought of 350 00:22:48,436 --> 00:22:51,636 Speaker 1: his sincerity on the other hand. You know, progressive rock, 351 00:22:52,436 --> 00:22:56,516 Speaker 1: punk rock people prefer punk rock. Country is famously called 352 00:22:57,116 --> 00:22:59,316 Speaker 1: three chords in the truth. Yeah. Right. Are there some 353 00:22:59,596 --> 00:23:04,956 Speaker 1: songs that you simply can't do this level of reharmonizing 354 00:23:05,476 --> 00:23:07,956 Speaker 1: on It surprised me. For example, you did Tennessee Waltz, 355 00:23:08,716 --> 00:23:11,756 Speaker 1: which is very kind of traditional. It's probably a one, 356 00:23:11,836 --> 00:23:13,796 Speaker 1: four or five. Yeah. Are you in the middle of 357 00:23:13,836 --> 00:23:17,116 Speaker 1: some songs going you know, the song can't take this? Yeah. 358 00:23:17,596 --> 00:23:20,396 Speaker 1: There are definitely moments where a song does not guide 359 00:23:20,436 --> 00:23:24,396 Speaker 1: you to being reimagined heavily harmonically. There's one song on 360 00:23:24,436 --> 00:23:26,236 Speaker 1: the album called all Let's Sea, which is maybe my 361 00:23:26,236 --> 00:23:29,036 Speaker 1: favorite song on the album. It's a song by a 362 00:23:29,116 --> 00:23:31,236 Speaker 1: guy named Jamie Cullum, who's just one of my favorite 363 00:23:31,316 --> 00:23:34,596 Speaker 1: musicians from from England, and it's funny, I didn't do 364 00:23:34,676 --> 00:23:37,156 Speaker 1: any rehrms or I did a couple of sneaky ones, 365 00:23:37,196 --> 00:23:39,876 Speaker 1: but but I didn't fundamentally reharmonize that song because for 366 00:23:39,996 --> 00:23:42,436 Speaker 1: some reason, maybe it was my mood or whatever. But 367 00:23:42,636 --> 00:23:45,916 Speaker 1: but yeah, the song it just kind of I'm all, 368 00:23:46,236 --> 00:24:02,356 Speaker 1: let's where no one bother Oh God, you fully for 369 00:24:05,796 --> 00:24:10,956 Speaker 1: it doesn't need you know, it doesn't need that. It 370 00:24:11,516 --> 00:24:14,236 Speaker 1: just it sings. And one of the joys of improvising 371 00:24:14,396 --> 00:24:17,156 Speaker 1: is that you have to take yourself as how who 372 00:24:17,236 --> 00:24:19,116 Speaker 1: you are on that day. So I remember when I 373 00:24:19,156 --> 00:24:20,916 Speaker 1: did Tennessee Waltz, that was the fifth show in a 374 00:24:21,036 --> 00:24:23,596 Speaker 1: row that we've done. We've done I think it was 375 00:24:23,676 --> 00:24:28,436 Speaker 1: two Copenhagen shows, a Sweden show, one more show which 376 00:24:28,436 --> 00:24:30,596 Speaker 1: I'm forgetting now, and then Oslo was the was the 377 00:24:30,716 --> 00:24:33,996 Speaker 1: final of the five show. So I was exhausted, but 378 00:24:34,076 --> 00:24:36,516 Speaker 1: I was also very kind of hyper. And my really 379 00:24:36,516 --> 00:24:41,676 Speaker 1: difference Steane Carsonson, who's totally unbelievable Norwegian button mccordion player 380 00:24:41,676 --> 00:24:44,676 Speaker 1: who also plays banjo and cabal and pedal steel. He 381 00:24:44,716 --> 00:24:46,876 Speaker 1: actually brought his pedal steel for this and I asked 382 00:24:46,916 --> 00:24:49,276 Speaker 1: him to sit in on the song Tennessee wats is 383 00:24:49,276 --> 00:24:51,116 Speaker 1: a fun place to start because it's a song that 384 00:24:51,476 --> 00:24:54,436 Speaker 1: kind of everyone knows, especially musicians, you know, really really 385 00:24:54,516 --> 00:25:12,316 Speaker 1: know that song, right that. I mean, it's such a 386 00:25:12,396 --> 00:25:17,436 Speaker 1: great song that actually it can survive some pretty severe departure. 387 00:25:18,036 --> 00:25:19,516 Speaker 1: But I think for me that the thing I like 388 00:25:19,596 --> 00:25:21,676 Speaker 1: about that performance with Stand is that I both of 389 00:25:21,796 --> 00:25:23,796 Speaker 1: us have this way of climbing around and all some 390 00:25:23,876 --> 00:25:26,476 Speaker 1: weird funny things, but the song is like a north star, 391 00:25:26,676 --> 00:25:28,476 Speaker 1: you know, it guides us back and then we'll go 392 00:25:28,556 --> 00:25:31,796 Speaker 1: off in and then Sonny will land at the song again, 393 00:25:31,996 --> 00:25:34,516 Speaker 1: you know, and it brings us back home, so you know. 394 00:25:34,556 --> 00:25:35,956 Speaker 1: But then again I think if I thought, oh gosh, 395 00:25:35,956 --> 00:25:37,956 Speaker 1: I really shouldn't do this to the song, or oh no, 396 00:25:38,036 --> 00:25:40,556 Speaker 1: that would be inappropriate, you know, or whatever thin these 397 00:25:40,636 --> 00:25:43,396 Speaker 1: these principles are, I think less is less is always more, 398 00:25:43,756 --> 00:25:45,876 Speaker 1: or you know, if you really have to treat things, 399 00:25:45,876 --> 00:25:47,756 Speaker 1: these things with the respect and don't know, I don't 400 00:25:47,796 --> 00:25:50,436 Speaker 1: think that's a that's that's not how life works. And 401 00:25:50,476 --> 00:25:53,356 Speaker 1: I also don't think that that is a sound way 402 00:25:53,396 --> 00:25:55,036 Speaker 1: of learning. I think that you have to give yourself 403 00:25:55,036 --> 00:25:57,716 Speaker 1: permission to try at all. I think when I was 404 00:25:57,756 --> 00:26:00,996 Speaker 1: a teenager, I kind of irrespective of the song. Sometimes 405 00:26:01,036 --> 00:26:03,876 Speaker 1: I would take these things way way, way, way way out, 406 00:26:04,436 --> 00:26:07,036 Speaker 1: And I think now I'm more inspired by the idea 407 00:26:07,076 --> 00:26:10,476 Speaker 1: of kind of controlling the the density of the language 408 00:26:10,516 --> 00:26:12,196 Speaker 1: in favor of the songs that are being sung, on 409 00:26:12,236 --> 00:26:14,316 Speaker 1: the stories that are being told through the songs. And 410 00:26:14,956 --> 00:26:16,716 Speaker 1: I think that's one of the things I'm enjoying about 411 00:26:16,716 --> 00:26:19,076 Speaker 1: growing older, actually is you know, if I look at 412 00:26:19,116 --> 00:26:21,596 Speaker 1: myself ten years ago, when I was eighteen, so much 413 00:26:21,596 --> 00:26:24,356 Speaker 1: of the language was so new and I needed to 414 00:26:24,436 --> 00:26:26,756 Speaker 1: push it that far. If someone, I mean people did 415 00:26:26,796 --> 00:26:28,116 Speaker 1: try and tell me this, I didn't listen. But if 416 00:26:28,156 --> 00:26:30,676 Speaker 1: people say, you know, to calm down, don't do less chords, 417 00:26:30,716 --> 00:26:32,276 Speaker 1: you just just play the simple song, you know what 418 00:26:32,956 --> 00:26:34,876 Speaker 1: I mean. That's like telling Stevie Wonder not to make 419 00:26:34,916 --> 00:26:37,236 Speaker 1: where I'm coming from, it doesn't work. You can't make 420 00:26:37,316 --> 00:26:39,516 Speaker 1: someone different from who they are, and it's not in 421 00:26:39,556 --> 00:26:42,076 Speaker 1: anyone's best interesting. I mean, why am I making music. 422 00:26:42,116 --> 00:26:43,756 Speaker 1: I'm not making music for other people to like it. 423 00:26:43,876 --> 00:26:46,636 Speaker 1: I'm making music because I must make it. It's part 424 00:26:46,676 --> 00:26:49,276 Speaker 1: of my skeleton, it's part of my expression, and I 425 00:26:49,356 --> 00:26:51,796 Speaker 1: think that it's only in giving people the permission to 426 00:26:51,876 --> 00:26:55,596 Speaker 1: be their full authentic selves, that you end up with 427 00:26:55,916 --> 00:26:58,476 Speaker 1: a person that is actually grounded in the truth of 428 00:26:58,516 --> 00:27:00,956 Speaker 1: who they are. And again, when you grow old. One 429 00:27:00,956 --> 00:27:02,836 Speaker 1: things what growing older is that you're understanding as to 430 00:27:02,916 --> 00:27:04,276 Speaker 1: your language and how to use it. I think it 431 00:27:04,356 --> 00:27:06,316 Speaker 1: deepens and grows as you become older. So I think 432 00:27:06,316 --> 00:27:09,076 Speaker 1: I'm now much more inspired by I mean, you could 433 00:27:09,156 --> 00:27:14,076 Speaker 1: say simple, cause, but tryads. I mean simple you know, 434 00:27:14,196 --> 00:27:18,036 Speaker 1: these simple things I really adore, like the clarity of 435 00:27:18,116 --> 00:27:20,756 Speaker 1: these kinds of sounds when I was sixteen, and all 436 00:27:20,796 --> 00:27:27,436 Speaker 1: I wanted to do is think was you know, wow, 437 00:27:27,676 --> 00:27:29,796 Speaker 1: are these such cool sounds? You know? But I'm glad 438 00:27:29,836 --> 00:27:31,236 Speaker 1: that I went through that, and I'm glad that I've 439 00:27:31,276 --> 00:27:34,116 Speaker 1: come into the triatic world with those experiments in tow 440 00:27:34,236 --> 00:27:37,316 Speaker 1: because it means that if I'm playing you know, wise 441 00:27:37,356 --> 00:27:43,676 Speaker 1: men say or whatever, there might be a moment where 442 00:27:43,716 --> 00:27:47,636 Speaker 1: I do sprinkle a chord that's quite expensive, followed by 443 00:27:47,676 --> 00:27:49,756 Speaker 1: a simple chord, and then then you get into like 444 00:27:49,836 --> 00:27:52,676 Speaker 1: really painting with with that language. It wasn't a question 445 00:27:52,756 --> 00:27:55,436 Speaker 1: of should people have permission to experiment, because of course 446 00:27:55,436 --> 00:27:59,556 Speaker 1: they always should. It's the degree or which a tune 447 00:28:00,476 --> 00:28:04,676 Speaker 1: can absorb that kind of treating you know, rhythm changes 448 00:28:04,676 --> 00:28:07,636 Speaker 1: are a lot of the big jazz songs are built 449 00:28:07,716 --> 00:28:10,956 Speaker 1: that way. You know. I'm thinking one of because I 450 00:28:10,996 --> 00:28:13,516 Speaker 1: do like country music and I like the pleasure of 451 00:28:13,596 --> 00:28:15,956 Speaker 1: the three chords. You know. One of my favorite versions 452 00:28:15,956 --> 00:28:18,956 Speaker 1: of a country music song is do you know Ray 453 00:28:19,036 --> 00:28:22,196 Speaker 1: Charles doing You or My Sunshine? I think I've heard that. Yeah, 454 00:28:22,476 --> 00:28:25,116 Speaker 1: it's fantastic, But I don't think he does much. I 455 00:28:25,196 --> 00:28:26,836 Speaker 1: think it's a lot of he just sings the song. 456 00:28:27,636 --> 00:28:30,236 Speaker 1: It's a lot of rhythmic stuff. Yeah, it just moves 457 00:28:30,316 --> 00:28:32,596 Speaker 1: like nobody's business. But I don't actually think he does 458 00:28:32,716 --> 00:28:35,756 Speaker 1: much substitution. Yeah, yeah, But to me, and maybe it's 459 00:28:35,756 --> 00:28:38,516 Speaker 1: almost a self consciousness that do I like music that's 460 00:28:38,516 --> 00:28:42,156 Speaker 1: too simple? Yeah? No, I don't think that that that. 461 00:28:42,316 --> 00:28:43,836 Speaker 1: I don't think that's that's such a thing as that. 462 00:28:44,316 --> 00:28:46,236 Speaker 1: It's hard as a listener sometimes, you know, I mean, 463 00:28:46,636 --> 00:28:50,916 Speaker 1: because those the pleasures are very kind of well regulated, 464 00:28:50,956 --> 00:28:53,196 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, Willie Nelson's a nice guitar player. There's 465 00:28:53,196 --> 00:28:55,716 Speaker 1: a lot of fabulous guitar playing in country, but but 466 00:28:55,876 --> 00:28:58,996 Speaker 1: it's based on that foundation. They're not throwing in a 467 00:28:59,036 --> 00:29:01,436 Speaker 1: lot of half diminish No, no, and I love it. 468 00:29:01,476 --> 00:29:04,676 Speaker 1: For that reason. Yeah, yeah, I think certain songs can 469 00:29:04,756 --> 00:29:08,596 Speaker 1: survive being kind of messed with, and other songs do 470 00:29:08,756 --> 00:29:11,916 Speaker 1: kind of just fall apart. We'll be right back after 471 00:29:11,996 --> 00:29:19,316 Speaker 1: a quick break with more from Jacob Collier. We're back 472 00:29:19,356 --> 00:29:22,516 Speaker 1: with the rest of Bruce Ellen's conversation with Jacob Collier. 473 00:29:23,036 --> 00:29:24,796 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about Moon River because you 474 00:29:24,876 --> 00:29:27,036 Speaker 1: once said that's a song that taught you a lot. Yes, 475 00:29:27,876 --> 00:29:29,876 Speaker 1: what did you mean by that? It's another It's an 476 00:29:29,916 --> 00:29:32,316 Speaker 1: all of these songs like like Can't Help falling in Love, 477 00:29:32,396 --> 00:29:35,236 Speaker 1: where every every note in that melody is in the 478 00:29:35,316 --> 00:30:46,636 Speaker 1: major scale. So what's that song taught me? It's very simple, 479 00:30:47,716 --> 00:30:53,756 Speaker 1: but it has such a journey intervaliqually, So when I 480 00:30:53,796 --> 00:30:56,076 Speaker 1: said intervalidly, it's like the arcs of the melody are 481 00:30:56,116 --> 00:31:13,236 Speaker 1: so lovely, is it. It's like rainbows, you know, It's 482 00:31:13,236 --> 00:31:15,596 Speaker 1: like a line that's drawn like this, and those shapes 483 00:31:15,596 --> 00:31:19,476 Speaker 1: are so strong that I think it held my language 484 00:31:19,516 --> 00:31:22,956 Speaker 1: together a little bit, because you know, I came with 485 00:31:23,036 --> 00:31:25,916 Speaker 1: that song ravenous for some chords. You know, I really 486 00:31:25,956 --> 00:31:28,156 Speaker 1: want to take this song out on a journey, and 487 00:31:28,236 --> 00:31:31,076 Speaker 1: then there are times where the song will dictate no, no, 488 00:31:31,556 --> 00:31:33,956 Speaker 1: you stay within my world. You stay within the key 489 00:31:34,036 --> 00:31:36,756 Speaker 1: that it's in, and then there are moments where where 490 00:31:36,876 --> 00:31:45,636 Speaker 1: it almost physically it says fly go fly, and I'm thinking, okay, 491 00:31:46,476 --> 00:31:48,636 Speaker 1: all my all, my language comes out, and I just 492 00:31:48,716 --> 00:31:51,036 Speaker 1: think that kind of almost spiritually, I think that song 493 00:31:51,196 --> 00:31:53,476 Speaker 1: is so beautiful, and it's just the idea of the 494 00:31:53,556 --> 00:31:56,836 Speaker 1: wonder of the world opening up before your eyes and 495 00:31:56,996 --> 00:31:59,036 Speaker 1: almost having this this going on a journey as with 496 00:31:59,276 --> 00:32:01,996 Speaker 1: a companion whier than a mile I'm crossing you in 497 00:32:02,076 --> 00:32:04,556 Speaker 1: style someday. It's it's like it's imagining a world that 498 00:32:05,636 --> 00:32:07,836 Speaker 1: that is endless and large and big and that you 499 00:32:07,916 --> 00:32:11,276 Speaker 1: could share where after the same rainbow's end waiting around 500 00:32:11,276 --> 00:32:14,076 Speaker 1: the bend my Hockerberry friend. It just describes a feeling, 501 00:32:14,196 --> 00:32:16,676 Speaker 1: and I think some of my favorite songs describe a feeling, 502 00:32:16,956 --> 00:32:18,756 Speaker 1: either through the lyrics or just through the chords and 503 00:32:18,836 --> 00:32:22,036 Speaker 1: the melody. Rather than being about it's about this personal 504 00:32:22,076 --> 00:32:24,316 Speaker 1: it's about this experiences, it's about a feeling of the world. 505 00:32:24,396 --> 00:32:28,316 Speaker 1: Because that that song, it just opened my mind to 506 00:32:28,516 --> 00:32:31,036 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff, and I also idea harmonically, I 507 00:32:31,276 --> 00:32:33,756 Speaker 1: really kind of pushed the boat out down Moon River 508 00:32:33,996 --> 00:32:38,556 Speaker 1: and really kind of wanted to find new things. The 509 00:32:38,676 --> 00:32:41,836 Speaker 1: final verse of that eight minute arrangement actually is in 510 00:32:41,916 --> 00:32:43,916 Speaker 1: a it's in a key that does not exist on 511 00:32:43,956 --> 00:32:47,716 Speaker 1: the piano. It's like between E flat and E oh 512 00:32:47,796 --> 00:32:52,356 Speaker 1: you did, dude, And it's actually not on the piano. 513 00:32:52,396 --> 00:32:55,476 Speaker 1: It's it's a quarter tone away. And but there's a 514 00:32:55,516 --> 00:32:57,276 Speaker 1: a portion at the end of the arrangement after that 515 00:32:57,356 --> 00:33:01,556 Speaker 1: where I moved between all these keys there aren't on 516 00:33:01,556 --> 00:33:03,636 Speaker 1: the piano. And it's something I've been very, very excited 517 00:33:03,676 --> 00:33:06,636 Speaker 1: by and interested for some time. But I really in 518 00:33:06,916 --> 00:33:09,716 Speaker 1: a musical sense that arranging that song gave me a 519 00:33:09,796 --> 00:33:12,756 Speaker 1: lot of understanding as to how to achieve things in 520 00:33:12,876 --> 00:33:16,836 Speaker 1: a microtonal world, but based in and based in the 521 00:33:16,916 --> 00:33:18,996 Speaker 1: emotions of a song that kind of held it together. 522 00:33:19,276 --> 00:33:22,556 Speaker 1: So how does that work? How does the what's the 523 00:33:22,876 --> 00:33:26,476 Speaker 1: emotional effect of switching to not a semi tone but 524 00:33:26,556 --> 00:33:29,836 Speaker 1: a semi semi tone one? Yeah, yeah, microtone. Well, it's 525 00:33:29,836 --> 00:33:34,836 Speaker 1: the same feeling as changing key chromatically on accano. Um. 526 00:33:35,276 --> 00:33:46,236 Speaker 1: You know, if I'm playing Moon River, I have I've 527 00:33:46,316 --> 00:34:03,156 Speaker 1: changed gay or whatever. Um um. Right, So it's a 528 00:34:03,196 --> 00:34:17,796 Speaker 1: new world, it's it's it's just a different thing. Well, 529 00:34:17,836 --> 00:34:20,236 Speaker 1: what's different about these keys that it's different, different color, 530 00:34:20,356 --> 00:34:24,196 Speaker 1: different flavor, different feelings. So so with microternal keys, it's 531 00:34:24,436 --> 00:34:26,636 Speaker 1: the same thing. It's just it's just even more subtle. 532 00:34:26,756 --> 00:34:30,436 Speaker 1: So you know, if you, for example, are aware of 533 00:34:30,516 --> 00:34:38,196 Speaker 1: only the major scale and you go this all sounds 534 00:34:38,236 --> 00:34:42,396 Speaker 1: good or pentatonic, and every style of music in the 535 00:34:42,436 --> 00:34:46,596 Speaker 1: whole world pretty much incorporates the idea of this pentatonic scale. 536 00:34:46,876 --> 00:34:51,676 Speaker 1: It's a universal thing. And if I go, oh, that 537 00:34:51,796 --> 00:34:54,156 Speaker 1: doesn't fit, that's that note is not in my language. 538 00:34:54,476 --> 00:34:57,276 Speaker 1: Oh it feels really out and strange. How could anybody 539 00:34:57,316 --> 00:34:59,316 Speaker 1: ever use that note? You know, why would you do that? 540 00:35:00,356 --> 00:35:03,076 Speaker 1: But actually you can do it. Say if I take 541 00:35:03,116 --> 00:35:06,516 Speaker 1: the E and I pivot, then I'm there. So the 542 00:35:06,596 --> 00:35:08,716 Speaker 1: same is true with with microtonality. I think right now, 543 00:35:09,516 --> 00:35:11,996 Speaker 1: based on the last five hundred years of musical instruments 544 00:35:12,036 --> 00:35:13,916 Speaker 1: that have been built in twelve tone equal temperament, which 545 00:35:13,956 --> 00:35:16,596 Speaker 1: is the idea that every semitone is the same size, 546 00:35:17,036 --> 00:35:18,876 Speaker 1: and there are twelve notes in the noctive. There were 547 00:35:18,916 --> 00:35:21,836 Speaker 1: lots of other ones, you know, there's thirty one note 548 00:35:21,836 --> 00:35:24,356 Speaker 1: equal temperament, which is I'm actually a huge advocate for. 549 00:35:24,476 --> 00:35:26,876 Speaker 1: I think it's really good. And so instead of do 550 00:35:28,036 --> 00:35:33,876 Speaker 1: do do do do do. It's like you know, et cetera, 551 00:35:34,116 --> 00:35:37,636 Speaker 1: and all these individual notes that all it's the same thing. 552 00:35:37,716 --> 00:35:39,676 Speaker 1: You can still pivot. You could pivot two notes that 553 00:35:39,796 --> 00:35:45,396 Speaker 1: feel outside you know, I can pivot from too, even 554 00:35:45,436 --> 00:35:47,516 Speaker 1: though that note feels oh wow, no that's wrong, it's 555 00:35:47,516 --> 00:35:49,796 Speaker 1: a wrong note. It's like, no, it's not wrong. And 556 00:35:49,876 --> 00:35:51,476 Speaker 1: there are also some ways you can you can pivot, 557 00:35:51,516 --> 00:35:54,156 Speaker 1: you know, using things like just intonation, which is like 558 00:35:54,436 --> 00:35:57,316 Speaker 1: a system of tuning based in physics and harmonic ratios 559 00:35:57,356 --> 00:35:59,716 Speaker 1: and things like that. It's just that our ears aren't 560 00:35:59,796 --> 00:36:01,076 Speaker 1: are weak enough to it in the same way that 561 00:36:01,116 --> 00:36:05,076 Speaker 1: if we are pentatonic people and someone goes, well, that's 562 00:36:05,116 --> 00:36:07,156 Speaker 1: just never going to be in my system. It's not 563 00:36:07,276 --> 00:36:10,196 Speaker 1: in the system. It's wrong. And assuming sometimes we have 564 00:36:10,196 --> 00:36:11,596 Speaker 1: a way of think that's wrong. It doesn't fit into 565 00:36:11,636 --> 00:36:17,236 Speaker 1: my system, you know what are damaging and dangerous concept politically, conceptually, philosophically, 566 00:36:17,676 --> 00:36:20,756 Speaker 1: energetically to say you don't belong in this because it 567 00:36:20,836 --> 00:36:23,356 Speaker 1: doesn't fit in my system of understanding and think of 568 00:36:23,436 --> 00:36:25,076 Speaker 1: the things I think of the opportunities we have to 569 00:36:25,156 --> 00:36:28,956 Speaker 1: connect with each other and ideas, but we shut them 570 00:36:28,996 --> 00:36:30,556 Speaker 1: down because we are close to our own systems, and 571 00:36:30,756 --> 00:36:31,956 Speaker 1: all of us do this. I mean, I do this 572 00:36:32,036 --> 00:36:33,876 Speaker 1: and many aspects of my life because I'm a human too. 573 00:36:33,956 --> 00:36:36,236 Speaker 1: But I try not to because I think that music, 574 00:36:36,276 --> 00:36:38,076 Speaker 1: I mean, which has taught me so many things, definitely 575 00:36:38,316 --> 00:36:41,556 Speaker 1: teaches me to welcome things and in the idea of 576 00:36:47,116 --> 00:36:49,196 Speaker 1: not being a wrong note but more just like an 577 00:36:49,196 --> 00:36:54,876 Speaker 1: opportunity to go somewhere else is way cooler as a 578 00:36:54,916 --> 00:36:57,036 Speaker 1: way of thinking than thinking, well, that's just wrong. Rule 579 00:36:57,076 --> 00:36:59,196 Speaker 1: it out. So when you did Moon, did you change 580 00:36:59,236 --> 00:37:02,916 Speaker 1: it electronically like post production or did you adjust the 581 00:37:02,956 --> 00:37:05,676 Speaker 1: instruments or was it all vocals? It was all vocals. Yeah, 582 00:37:05,676 --> 00:37:08,636 Speaker 1: it's about hundred hundred voices at once. It's a massive sound, 583 00:37:08,836 --> 00:37:11,036 Speaker 1: And that's what I mean. It's the reason why I 584 00:37:11,076 --> 00:37:12,716 Speaker 1: think the voice is the most kind of important and 585 00:37:12,796 --> 00:37:15,156 Speaker 1: versatile instrument of all. But yeah, I just sang it 586 00:37:15,276 --> 00:37:17,316 Speaker 1: in as I wanted to hear it. Having perfect pitch 587 00:37:17,396 --> 00:37:19,836 Speaker 1: does that allow you to hear the in between notes 588 00:37:19,876 --> 00:37:22,516 Speaker 1: as well? Well? It's funny because you know, perfect pitch 589 00:37:22,636 --> 00:37:25,436 Speaker 1: is one it's you would say, oh, you know, it's 590 00:37:25,436 --> 00:37:26,996 Speaker 1: absolute pitch. I can pluck a note of the air. 591 00:37:27,036 --> 00:37:28,716 Speaker 1: But I mean it's just based on the notes that 592 00:37:28,756 --> 00:37:31,516 Speaker 1: we've been given. So we've been given twelve available notes, 593 00:37:32,116 --> 00:37:34,396 Speaker 1: and I think now I'm excited to kind of expand 594 00:37:34,476 --> 00:37:37,996 Speaker 1: my you could say, perfect pitch into more than twelve. 595 00:37:38,356 --> 00:37:41,396 Speaker 1: Have you played the Harry Partch instruments. Well, so I've 596 00:37:41,436 --> 00:37:43,356 Speaker 1: never played one of his instruments, but Harry Partch, it's 597 00:37:43,356 --> 00:37:46,436 Speaker 1: one of the most kind of important pioneers of microturnal instruments. 598 00:37:46,596 --> 00:37:48,276 Speaker 1: There're been so many people over the years who have 599 00:37:48,716 --> 00:37:51,556 Speaker 1: attempted to solve the problem of how do we make 600 00:37:51,596 --> 00:37:54,276 Speaker 1: our chords sound really good but also put them in 601 00:37:54,356 --> 00:37:56,996 Speaker 1: equal temperament. So yeah, I mean not to get too nerdy, 602 00:37:57,036 --> 00:38:01,636 Speaker 1: but every note in the universe has a set of overtones. 603 00:38:02,636 --> 00:38:05,916 Speaker 1: So if I if I say, which is a B flat? 604 00:38:05,956 --> 00:38:13,996 Speaker 1: If I go, I don't know if you can hear it, 605 00:38:14,076 --> 00:38:23,356 Speaker 1: it's going So this is naturally occurring. So if I 606 00:38:23,436 --> 00:38:26,676 Speaker 1: go in a cathedral, which people did hundreds of years ago, 607 00:38:26,796 --> 00:38:29,956 Speaker 1: no doubt you hear those overtones back come back at you. 608 00:38:30,276 --> 00:38:36,436 Speaker 1: And so within every note is actually inherently a major chord. 609 00:38:36,556 --> 00:38:39,276 Speaker 1: It's crazy. So this is why I think major feels 610 00:38:39,276 --> 00:38:44,156 Speaker 1: consonant to human beings is because that sound is if 611 00:38:44,196 --> 00:38:48,756 Speaker 1: I go, it's the it's in the chord, it's in 612 00:38:48,796 --> 00:38:51,876 Speaker 1: the note, it's in every sound, so of course ours 613 00:38:51,916 --> 00:38:54,596 Speaker 1: seek to hear that. The thing about the piano, which 614 00:38:54,676 --> 00:38:57,916 Speaker 1: is a compromise harmonically, is that the third that D 615 00:38:58,316 --> 00:39:00,356 Speaker 1: the third on the piano is actually it's actually really 616 00:39:00,396 --> 00:39:02,796 Speaker 1: sharp on the piano in real life. In physics you 617 00:39:02,836 --> 00:39:14,316 Speaker 1: could say everything's real life, but see it's really sharp. 618 00:39:14,556 --> 00:39:17,716 Speaker 1: But the pure tone we call it the justly tuned third. 619 00:39:21,196 --> 00:39:24,916 Speaker 1: Here's fourteen hundreds of a half step or a semitone flatter. 620 00:39:25,636 --> 00:39:28,236 Speaker 1: Then the piano is tuned. So this is crazy to me. 621 00:39:28,636 --> 00:39:31,796 Speaker 1: What does this mean? Well, it means that you can 622 00:39:31,876 --> 00:39:35,196 Speaker 1: pivot to microternal keys. And this is this is the 623 00:39:35,236 --> 00:39:37,476 Speaker 1: thing that really freaks me out. So if I if 624 00:39:37,516 --> 00:39:43,636 Speaker 1: I take the D and that's now my tonic, then 625 00:39:43,716 --> 00:39:47,196 Speaker 1: that my entire chord is fourteen cents flat. So now 626 00:39:47,236 --> 00:39:51,836 Speaker 1: if I do that's a D major chord, the third 627 00:39:51,916 --> 00:39:54,036 Speaker 1: of that chord would itself be fourteen cents flat. So 628 00:39:54,076 --> 00:39:57,356 Speaker 1: now my F sharp is, which is quite a lot 629 00:39:57,396 --> 00:39:59,236 Speaker 1: flatter than the one on the piano, and then that 630 00:39:59,596 --> 00:40:03,076 Speaker 1: itself can become a major chord, and then the third 631 00:40:03,156 --> 00:40:05,556 Speaker 1: of that is fourteen cents flat. So by this point 632 00:40:05,676 --> 00:40:08,356 Speaker 1: we are what's what's my math forty two cents flat, 633 00:40:08,396 --> 00:40:11,156 Speaker 1: which is almost half for semitone flat. So this is 634 00:40:11,236 --> 00:40:12,876 Speaker 1: how at the end of Moon River, and also in 635 00:40:12,956 --> 00:40:15,916 Speaker 1: other arrangements I did, I actually moved between microternal keys. 636 00:40:16,236 --> 00:40:21,636 Speaker 1: I'm not just jumping there. I'm pivoting using just intonation, ratios, 637 00:40:21,676 --> 00:40:25,316 Speaker 1: harmonic physics based intervals to guide the ear to a 638 00:40:25,356 --> 00:40:27,796 Speaker 1: place where it doesn't know or sense anything is wrong 639 00:40:27,916 --> 00:40:31,316 Speaker 1: or untoward. Because it's the same way as pivoting to 640 00:40:31,916 --> 00:40:40,516 Speaker 1: a major from C major, but using the E. I 641 00:40:40,596 --> 00:40:43,076 Speaker 1: don't feel like I've gone huge. It's not like going 642 00:40:45,836 --> 00:40:47,156 Speaker 1: you know, it's not like you're not jumping to a 643 00:40:47,196 --> 00:40:49,876 Speaker 1: foreign place. You can do that. But the thing I'm really, really, 644 00:40:49,956 --> 00:40:52,316 Speaker 1: really excited and interested in right now is how do 645 00:40:52,396 --> 00:40:57,876 Speaker 1: you unpack microternality but completely in functional chord systems and 646 00:40:57,956 --> 00:41:01,516 Speaker 1: functional harmony, Because there's also people who make microtnal music 647 00:41:01,596 --> 00:41:04,116 Speaker 1: that sounds really unlistable and it is very intellectual and 648 00:41:04,196 --> 00:41:06,316 Speaker 1: it's just really jarring, and it can be very beautiful 649 00:41:06,316 --> 00:41:08,636 Speaker 1: as well. But I think for me, the idea of 650 00:41:09,396 --> 00:41:13,036 Speaker 1: these justly tuned cares and intervals pivoting using those sounds. 651 00:41:13,556 --> 00:41:16,596 Speaker 1: I mean, that's crazy, man, that's so exciting. You're now 652 00:41:16,676 --> 00:41:19,996 Speaker 1: on the hunt for ghost notes between the notes. What's 653 00:41:20,076 --> 00:41:22,756 Speaker 1: next for you? Well, we haven't spoken about this too much, 654 00:41:22,756 --> 00:41:24,476 Speaker 1: but I'm in the middle of a quadruple album. This 655 00:41:24,596 --> 00:41:27,316 Speaker 1: is besides the Piano Ballots album Jesse Volume one, two, three, 656 00:41:27,356 --> 00:41:30,876 Speaker 1: and four, And each of the volumes of Jesse has 657 00:41:30,956 --> 00:41:33,476 Speaker 1: been a different It's like a different musical genre, different 658 00:41:33,556 --> 00:41:36,756 Speaker 1: musical space, different set of sounds, and so it's like 659 00:41:36,836 --> 00:41:41,556 Speaker 1: a fifty song, sprawling, kind of insanely ambitious project that 660 00:41:41,636 --> 00:41:44,196 Speaker 1: I began four years ago, now over four years ago. Now. 661 00:41:44,356 --> 00:41:47,676 Speaker 1: I wanted to lay down the foundations of my own 662 00:41:47,756 --> 00:41:49,476 Speaker 1: musical understanding so that at the end of the fourth 663 00:41:49,476 --> 00:41:51,876 Speaker 1: one of Jesse, I could like start my career. That 664 00:41:52,116 --> 00:41:53,956 Speaker 1: was like my plan, and the way I wanted to 665 00:41:54,076 --> 00:41:57,316 Speaker 1: learn was by collaborating with all my favorite musicians music 666 00:41:57,396 --> 00:42:00,036 Speaker 1: I believe to be the most kind of extraordinary important 667 00:42:00,076 --> 00:42:04,036 Speaker 1: people to me. And some of those people are old legends, 668 00:42:04,076 --> 00:42:06,116 Speaker 1: and some of those people are ten years younger than me. 669 00:42:06,956 --> 00:42:09,156 Speaker 1: But I was really really ravenous to collaborate because I 670 00:42:09,236 --> 00:42:10,676 Speaker 1: just made this album in my room, and I taught 671 00:42:10,676 --> 00:42:13,636 Speaker 1: it for three years on my own on stage, and 672 00:42:13,916 --> 00:42:16,116 Speaker 1: I just really wanted that that human connection, so I 673 00:42:16,916 --> 00:42:20,516 Speaker 1: started this project. So jesse Volin one was an orchestral album. 674 00:42:21,156 --> 00:42:22,996 Speaker 1: By no means was it classical music, but it was. 675 00:42:23,116 --> 00:42:25,436 Speaker 1: It was just it was music, just music made with 676 00:42:25,476 --> 00:42:28,756 Speaker 1: an orchestra and my mind and instruments skills too, and 677 00:42:28,876 --> 00:42:31,036 Speaker 1: so there was that. The Take six were on the album. 678 00:42:31,196 --> 00:42:33,796 Speaker 1: Lauren Mvola was on the album All Sorts of Amazing People. 679 00:42:34,116 --> 00:42:36,116 Speaker 1: And jesse Volin two was more of a sort of 680 00:42:36,156 --> 00:42:38,596 Speaker 1: a folk record. I suppose, a record based out of 681 00:42:38,596 --> 00:42:42,316 Speaker 1: the guitar and running songs, and and that album was 682 00:42:42,356 --> 00:42:45,676 Speaker 1: packed with the collaborations to Sam Amidon, Katherine Takel. Leanne 683 00:42:45,716 --> 00:42:49,716 Speaker 1: Lavas was on the album, Jojo Umari, Mark Romley was 684 00:42:49,756 --> 00:42:52,476 Speaker 1: on there and she's extraordinary, and Steve I, the legendary 685 00:42:52,556 --> 00:42:55,396 Speaker 1: rock guitarists, was on there. Jesse Voldin three was more 686 00:42:55,436 --> 00:42:58,556 Speaker 1: of a kind of R and B. I hesitate when 687 00:42:58,556 --> 00:43:00,196 Speaker 1: I say pop, but it was the most pop album 688 00:43:00,196 --> 00:43:03,356 Speaker 1: I've ever made. These songs had electronic production four on 689 00:43:03,436 --> 00:43:05,076 Speaker 1: the floor, so those things as well as you know, 690 00:43:05,116 --> 00:43:08,036 Speaker 1: really kind of dense experiments and that album was t 691 00:43:08,196 --> 00:43:11,036 Speaker 1: Paine and Jesse ray Is and Tory Kelly and Mahalia 692 00:43:11,156 --> 00:43:14,876 Speaker 1: Ty Dollar Sign, Keyana Laday some really extoring people rhapsody. 693 00:43:15,116 --> 00:43:17,236 Speaker 1: So what's next for me? Well, Jesse Vain four is 694 00:43:17,236 --> 00:43:19,596 Speaker 1: on the horizon, and that is it's been a couple 695 00:43:19,596 --> 00:43:22,436 Speaker 1: of years in the works and more excited by it 696 00:43:22,516 --> 00:43:25,236 Speaker 1: than I can possibly say. It's been a challenge to 697 00:43:25,476 --> 00:43:30,556 Speaker 1: kind of contain the overwhelmingly dazzling potential of what it 698 00:43:30,596 --> 00:43:33,316 Speaker 1: could sound like and be in my mind because there's 699 00:43:33,316 --> 00:43:35,716 Speaker 1: just so many things. But it's it's finding it's nor 700 00:43:35,716 --> 00:43:37,916 Speaker 1: if it's finding its form, and it's it's really getting 701 00:43:37,916 --> 00:43:41,116 Speaker 1: to the point where it's it's it's approaching a finished state. Now. 702 00:43:41,156 --> 00:43:42,796 Speaker 1: I think within a few months it should be done, 703 00:43:42,836 --> 00:43:44,876 Speaker 1: so that's cool. One of the things I'm most excited 704 00:43:44,876 --> 00:43:47,956 Speaker 1: about is I actually recorded every audience on tour for 705 00:43:48,156 --> 00:43:50,156 Speaker 1: the album, and so it's like a one hundred thousand 706 00:43:50,236 --> 00:43:53,796 Speaker 1: voices singing in harmony on the record, And I think, 707 00:43:53,836 --> 00:43:57,156 Speaker 1: to me, that's so exciting and feels philosophically very correct 708 00:43:57,236 --> 00:43:59,756 Speaker 1: because I began my career laring my own voice on 709 00:43:59,836 --> 00:44:03,236 Speaker 1: top of itself to create harmony, right and It's almost 710 00:44:03,236 --> 00:44:04,756 Speaker 1: like I pose the question of what is harmony? What 711 00:44:04,876 --> 00:44:08,276 Speaker 1: is connection? If harmony is the connection between things, what 712 00:44:08,396 --> 00:44:11,236 Speaker 1: am I seeking here? What began as a journey in isolation? 713 00:44:12,076 --> 00:44:14,236 Speaker 1: And it's by no means ending, but it's it's it's 714 00:44:14,596 --> 00:44:16,876 Speaker 1: definitely the end of an era, Jesse era, the last 715 00:44:16,916 --> 00:44:20,156 Speaker 1: five years of my life. What have I learned? While 716 00:44:20,156 --> 00:44:22,956 Speaker 1: I've learned that everyone in the world has a voice, 717 00:44:23,516 --> 00:44:25,876 Speaker 1: and what happens when you bring those voices together, that is, 718 00:44:26,436 --> 00:44:30,156 Speaker 1: that's as much harmony philosophically harmony as I could possibly 719 00:44:30,236 --> 00:44:33,236 Speaker 1: dream of conceptualizing. That is a feeling, that is a 720 00:44:33,356 --> 00:44:37,876 Speaker 1: north that's the special thing. And so I'm really excited 721 00:44:37,956 --> 00:44:40,716 Speaker 1: to incorporate their voices onto the album. I'm then excited 722 00:44:40,756 --> 00:44:44,196 Speaker 1: to tour that album with the audiences themselves singing what 723 00:44:44,276 --> 00:44:47,076 Speaker 1: they said. You know, there's this amazing kind of loop 724 00:44:47,196 --> 00:44:50,076 Speaker 1: that goes around. Yeah. I'm working on so many other 725 00:44:50,156 --> 00:44:53,036 Speaker 1: things besides Jesse Volume four, some of which I can't 726 00:44:53,076 --> 00:44:54,836 Speaker 1: talk about, In fact, most of which I can't talk about, 727 00:44:54,876 --> 00:44:57,836 Speaker 1: but with all sorts of different people on many different 728 00:44:57,876 --> 00:45:00,676 Speaker 1: stages and different environments, in many different forms of art, 729 00:45:00,836 --> 00:45:03,756 Speaker 1: and I think I'm just fiercely ambitious, but I'm also 730 00:45:03,876 --> 00:45:05,556 Speaker 1: just trying to stay as in the present as I 731 00:45:05,636 --> 00:45:08,036 Speaker 1: can with what I can pay attention to and give 732 00:45:08,036 --> 00:45:09,916 Speaker 1: my due two right now, and right now, that's finishing 733 00:45:10,276 --> 00:45:12,916 Speaker 1: Jesse Volume four, which I'm so proud of and so 734 00:45:13,036 --> 00:45:15,756 Speaker 1: excited to share, and finishing off this world tour this year, 735 00:45:15,796 --> 00:45:18,676 Speaker 1: which is Australia, New Zealand and Asia and a little 736 00:45:18,676 --> 00:45:20,796 Speaker 1: bit of Europe for good measure, and then you know, 737 00:45:20,916 --> 00:45:23,116 Speaker 1: soaring into the campaign of the album, which is creating 738 00:45:23,196 --> 00:45:26,476 Speaker 1: videos and creating narratives and having conversations, and there'll be 739 00:45:26,676 --> 00:45:29,036 Speaker 1: a tour for that album, I'm sure in the future, 740 00:45:29,316 --> 00:45:31,596 Speaker 1: and after the album comes out, and you know, then 741 00:45:31,716 --> 00:45:34,916 Speaker 1: I think the biggest challenge for me is leaving a 742 00:45:35,036 --> 00:45:38,356 Speaker 1: blank page so that things can take me by surprise, 743 00:45:38,476 --> 00:45:40,196 Speaker 1: you know, because I could plan the next ten years 744 00:45:40,236 --> 00:45:42,756 Speaker 1: of my life and actually fill every day. So I 745 00:45:42,796 --> 00:45:45,036 Speaker 1: think it's it's almost amount of just thinking, well, let's 746 00:45:45,076 --> 00:45:47,436 Speaker 1: just leave room for things to come and surprise me, 747 00:45:47,556 --> 00:45:50,436 Speaker 1: and people to come and surprise me, and for me 748 00:45:50,516 --> 00:45:52,396 Speaker 1: to be swept off my feet a little bit, you know, 749 00:45:52,516 --> 00:45:55,236 Speaker 1: by the things that happen in life that you can 750 00:45:55,276 --> 00:45:58,156 Speaker 1: never plan for. But it's almost like improvising a ballad. 751 00:45:58,236 --> 00:46:00,756 Speaker 1: You go on stage or you step forth in life, 752 00:46:00,796 --> 00:46:03,356 Speaker 1: and there are certain things that you can hold on to. 753 00:46:03,436 --> 00:46:05,876 Speaker 1: There are certain parts of language and knowledge you understand, 754 00:46:05,956 --> 00:46:07,916 Speaker 1: and then then you have to just let it all 755 00:46:07,956 --> 00:46:10,476 Speaker 1: go and see what happens. Well, thanks for spending this 756 00:46:10,596 --> 00:46:13,716 Speaker 1: time with us. You've swept us off our feet, just wonderful. 757 00:46:13,796 --> 00:46:20,716 Speaker 1: Thanks thanks to Jacob Carlier again for sitting down to 758 00:46:20,836 --> 00:46:23,876 Speaker 1: talk to us about his career and about his process 759 00:46:24,036 --> 00:46:28,356 Speaker 1: and about some insane musical dude. You can hear piano 760 00:46:28,436 --> 00:46:31,116 Speaker 1: ballads and all of our favorite Jacob call your songs 761 00:46:31,236 --> 00:46:34,756 Speaker 1: on a playlist at broken record podcast dot com. Be 762 00:46:34,876 --> 00:46:37,236 Speaker 1: sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot 763 00:46:37,276 --> 00:46:40,476 Speaker 1: com slash broken record Podcast. We can find all of 764 00:46:40,556 --> 00:46:43,836 Speaker 1: our new episodes. You can follow us on Twitter at 765 00:46:43,916 --> 00:46:50,116 Speaker 1: broken Record. Broken Record is producer Helpful Lea Rose, Jason Gambrel, Benaladay, 766 00:46:50,556 --> 00:46:55,396 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, Jennifer Sanchez, our editor, Sophie Crane, our executive 767 00:46:55,436 --> 00:47:00,796 Speaker 1: producer is Label. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. 768 00:47:01,436 --> 00:47:03,876 Speaker 1: If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider 769 00:47:03,916 --> 00:47:08,356 Speaker 1: subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription 770 00:47:08,476 --> 00:47:12,036 Speaker 1: that offers us content an uninterrupted ad free listening for 771 00:47:12,156 --> 00:47:15,076 Speaker 1: four ninety nine a month. Look for pushtm Plus on 772 00:47:15,196 --> 00:47:19,116 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts subscriptions, and if you like our show, please 773 00:47:19,196 --> 00:47:22,116 Speaker 1: remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. 774 00:47:22,516 --> 00:47:25,316 Speaker 1: Right theme musics by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richard.