WEBVTT - How Turning Down Apple Changed Nigel Wilson's Life 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:16.800 I'm David Merritt and I'm Francing Laqua and this is 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:19.240 in the City, Bloombok's podcast, connecting you to the stories 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:21.760 and the voices at the heart of the City of London. 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:24.800 This week a conversation with Nigel Wilson, Legal and General's 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:28.120 Chief executive. But not for much longer. Yes. Earlier this year, 0:00:28.520 --> 0:00:32.000 Nigel announces plans to retire after more than a decade 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:35.199 at the home of the financial services giant. Nigel is 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:38.120 one of the City of London's most recognizable figures. You 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.840 can be seen around town Night died in twenty twenty 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:43.880 two for services to financial services. Welcome to the podcast, Nigel, 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:46.159 Thank you and welcome back. In fact, in fact, you 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:49.760 were I think our first francy on our first podcast 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:52.600 about the leveling up agenda of the government. So thank 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:55.440 you for coming back. Glad to be here, Nigel. This 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:58.080 is quite a transition here for you, right you're about 0:00:58.080 --> 0:01:00.319 to step down as chief executive. What are you most 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:03.680 proud of? I don't really think in that sort of 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:06.319 way that I'm busy sort of counting the things that 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:08.600 I'm most proud of and then ranking them or whatever. 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:11.320 My biggest achievement that a legal in general is having 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:14.840 you know, an amazing team and amazing culture and who 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:17.080 are you know, trying to do the right things for 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:19.360 the right reasons and have a real purpose And it's 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:22.480 very much a purpose led business which is delivered outstanding things, 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:25.560 not just here but across the world. You know, in 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:29.240 the last decade or so, how did you know when 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:31.680 the right time to step down was? How difficult is 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:36.320 that decision? Yeah? I think the decision wasn't that difficult 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:39.960 because you know, you know, you can try and get 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:42.319 the right time or a good time, and I think, 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:43.679 you know, it was kind of a good time and 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:46.920 a good process in that you know, the company can 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:49.920 start the search for a successor and I can start, 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:52.720 you know, talking to people what I do next, and 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:54.800 you know it's you know, it may take a year, 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:57.680 which is what we've said in the in the RNs, 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:01.320 so not something that's going to happen in the short term, 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:05.040 but it allows the board to really manage the succession 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:07.320 process with a lot of transparency and if I got 0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:10.640 off to talk to people about some particular role or whatever, 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:14.200 it's understandable why I'm doing this, rather than sort of 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:17.280 some clandestine alferative operation in the in the background with 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:20.720 headlines in Bloomberg. Yeah, we would have got the scoop right, 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:25.360 you know. We're recording this the day after Nichola Sturgeon 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:28.640 announced her stepping down as First and Scotland and in 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:32.440 her speech she talked about this instinctive feeling of you know, 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:35.400 it's time to go in there. Not enough leaders have 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:40.200 that sort of self knowledge in the job. I have 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:45.160 believed that part of serving well would be to know 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:50.200 almost instinctively when the time is right to make weak 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:53.160 for someone else and when that takes Do you think 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:55.880 too many chief executives cling on too long? Well, there's 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:58.040 not much evidence to cling on too long, but in 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:00.320 one sense, in terms of a time sense, you know, 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:02.560 the average ten year of a chief executive is you know, 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:06.160 three to four years. And I do think people should 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:08.000 be thinking of more in the sort of eight to 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:12.160 ten years and going about developing in their business with 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:14.400 an eight to ten year horizon as opposed to trying 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:17.200 to get immediate impact. And there's a lot of short 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:20.320 termism still in business and indeed in the wider economy 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:22.400 here in the UK, which I think has not been 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:28.040 helpful for economic growth or creating value for shareholders. Dave 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:30.400 was doing Bloomberg speak. I just thought that Nichol student 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:33.160 had had enough. I don't know whether there's a point that, 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:35.800 you know, do you step down when you've had enough 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:38.720 or two years before you have enough? Is there is 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:41.840 there an optimal point? But I think I've gone for good, 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:43.960 you know, which is a good point. I mean, it's 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:45.800 a good point for the firm to be looking for 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:47.560 somebody else, and it's a good point for me to 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:49.960 be thinking about what's my next challenge? You know. It 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:54.320 wasn't trying to optimize anything, you know. I mean, in 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:56.240 one sense, I could have gone on for a number 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:58.360 of years, you know. It was there's no shareholder pressure 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:00.760 or do you feel a change in yourself? I don't 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:03.480 know whether not at all? I mean, you know, I 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:05.800 mean the hardest thing was actually talking to all of 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:08.800 my colleagues amount that I was going because I've been 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:11.160 an important part of their life and they've been important 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:12.760 part of my life for a long time. So there 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:15.640 were some quite emotional discussions of wearing me out actually, 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:18.200 and I think gosh lists come to an end and 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:20.200 let's get the R and S out and so I 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:22.160 can move on the next years of my life. I 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:24.200 can't have another one of these meetings, which is so 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:27.400 emotional because we've done well as a as a team 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:29.640 for a long period of time and you know, people's 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:34.119 careers have developed and evolved and not responsibility and accountability. 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:36.520 It's a big part of being a leader thinking about 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:38.919 succession then and how much did you time did you 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:41.880 dedicate to try and trying to groom the people who 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:43.520 would be ready to take a lot a lot of 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:45.279 time and so I've mentioned before I moved people around 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:48.680 a lot. So they've got a wide range of experiences, 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:51.719 not just in the UK, but they've shared American divisions, 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:54.720 et cetera. From an internal point of point of view, 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:57.200 but the board has to look excernentally as well. This 0:04:57.320 --> 0:04:59.760 is a great job for somebody to get. You know, 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:02.080 we we're doing incredibly well. You know the boundary it's 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:05.960 very strong, and the sorts of capital to spend. But actually, 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:08.800 you know, people internally and we've got you know, strong 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:11.520 internal candidates have done you know, lots of things that 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:15.000 have made them you know, um, let them have a 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:17.720 better chance. Plus we've given them specific mentoring throughout the 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:21.760 last year. So actually it's not like we thought about it, 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.440 you know, three months ago. We've been thinking about it 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:27.400 for for a while. But again, we wanted the internal 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:30.119 transition to work, to work well so that people felt 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:33.279 as though we've given them coaching and support when we 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:36.120 fired the gun. Well, when did you start thinking about succession? 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:38.240 That this must be one of the hardest things to 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:40.640 think about. Even when you started his chief executive. You 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:43.000 had to make sure that the entity or the company 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:47.480 is strong. Yeah you yes, yeah, and that's been developing 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:50.600 internal people and also bringing in some you know, great 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:55.159 external people into the organization. So was that deliberate, Yes, yeah, yeah, 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:58.920 most things I do with deliberate, they're not. I don't 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:04.160 over think things. Do you think things? Do you think 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:08.320 there's enough talent out there in Britain to do the 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:09.960 sort of jobs that you've just done running these foot 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:12.640 three hundred companies? You say there's there's a search externally. 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:18.400 Do we have enough stars to platform to do these 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:21.840 sorts of jobs? I think we answer that we're not 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:24.720 developed enough talent at a bought a macro level, at 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:30.479 a micro level across the across the UK. And I 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:33.760 think that's something that you know, everyone should be thinking about, 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:37.240 is you know, how do we develop more talent in 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:39.080 the UK so that people can step up and do 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:40.880 bigger jobs. Is that you know, we've got some of 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:43.280 the best universes in the world. People come here to 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:45.920 have their education, but why are we not developing enough 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:48.120 to step up to run these big comforcause, I was 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:50.480 doing a topping out ceremony at Oxford yesterday, which is 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:55.279 one of our big projects, four billion pound project, and 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:57.560 we were talking about the same thing as we produced 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:01.640 this incredible amount of people out of our brilliant universities, 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:05.040 including Oxford. You know, but how many of them rise 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:09.560 to you know, really important jobs in business? And have 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:13.360 we really solved business well enough into university graduates? And 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:16.880 you know, once they graduate, is that something that they 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:20.120 look upon as a as a realistic goal that they 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:22.720 could become, you know, a chief executive of a futsye 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:25.360 hundred company. But what makes a difference between someone that 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:28.120 becomes a chief executive and doesn't So is it aspiration 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:30.960 to become chief executive or is it resilience? I've heard, 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:33.720 you know, you hear that you can have two people, 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:39.600 same qualifications, same smarts, same intellect, but it's resilience through 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:41.800 the tough times that will make one succeed, not the other. 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:44.320 But that's when you learn as well, you know, success 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:47.040 as a poor teacher, whereas when things go wrong you 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:49.320 have to accept they've gone wrong and then really study 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:53.000 and learn what happened why. And resilience is the most 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:57.920 underrated you know attribute to people don't really recognize in 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:00.560 others and they don't teach it very well, although coach 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:04.800 it very well or make people very self aware. Compartmentalization 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:07.240 is a really important part of that process because you 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:10.640 can chop your life into different bits and then you 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:13.880 know not all things will go well all of the time, 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:16.240 but you're not sort of cross contaminating other parts of 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:19.080 your life because one part isn't going so well, and 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:21.560 you know, nobody's life all the parts of their life 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:23.160 is going to go well at the same time, so 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:25.400 you've got to have this sort of cross resilience. You know, 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:28.280 you're only as happy as your least happy child. Actually 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:32.079 this I love that basically, but that's true, and so 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:36.000 you know, but if you worry endlessly about your least 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:38.480 happy child whilst you're at work, then you know you've 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:41.800 become unproductive. But you know when you get home you 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:43.719 really have to worry about at least happy child and 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:45.840 make sure they're get a bit happier so everybody else 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:48.480 is happy. Think thinking a little bit about what you 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:51.480 was talking about the skills gap in Britain again and 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:55.360 just remembering our conversation last year around leveling up and 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:58.480 you're very passionate about that subject. It's part of the problem. 0:08:58.520 --> 0:08:59.880 You were just at Oxford. I mean, we have this 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:03.720 concentration of excellence in this kind of triangle of Oxford, 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:06.360 Cambridge and London. We haven't done enough, have we to 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:09.559 spread the skills or the centers of excellence all around 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:11.720 Preson No, I think that's true. I mean, you know, 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:15.360 in big picture terms were of law growth, law productivity, 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:19.160 low wage economy fought by political infighting and so you 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:22.440 know the political genders is massive over here where you know, 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:25.600 relentlessly on the news it's nearly always negative. It's very 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:28.839 London centric and you know people don't get out enough 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:31.200 to to look you know, what's the real potential of 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:35.560 Edinburgh or Newcastle, law Manchester or Birmingham, and they've fallen behind. 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:37.839 You've always Nigel given us a lot of time talking 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:40.360 about leveling up and things that are very dear and 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:42.360 it's very clear when we hear you speak that are 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:44.920 very Jersey heart. Would you go into politics? Do think 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:48.400 it's interesting what is politics? If politics is having a 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.880 you know, functional role in government, then that's not, as 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:56.640 you know, particularly appealing. But if politics is defined as 0:09:56.840 --> 0:10:00.480 delivering you know, economically and socially useful outcomes a large 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:02.760 part of the population, then you know, I'm clearly in 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:05.280 the latter camp and not in the former camp. You know, 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:07.840 do I want to be you know, the Minister of 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:12.520 Trade or defense or education city and then the city minister? No? I, 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:15.240 you know, I don't particularly want to do that, But 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:17.080 you know, do I want to be a champion for 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:20.920 leveling up across the UK and various components of that. Absolutely? 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:23.200 You know. Do I want to write about that in 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:26.560 a more academic way going forward, Absolutely, given all of 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:29.280 the knowledge that I have, an experience that I have 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:33.360 around that that's sort of unfinished business from my previous 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:37.640 academic career, which I dropped many years ago to pursuers 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:39.160 and this is where you're going to pursue your energies. 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:42.599 It's so academia, but with a kind of public policy agenda. 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:44.840 That's part of what I want to do going forward. 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:48.360 You know, I definitely want to have a direct impact on, 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:50.640 you know, the lives of people. You know, I want 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:52.880 to finish off while I started, which is teaching. You know, 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:56.079 I love teaching at m I T and previously in 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:58.400 Essex when I was in the UK. But I now 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:00.880 have a lot more life experience, a lot more relevance 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:03.640 I think for the students and can be more ambitious 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:06.080 at aspirational for them, saying you know, this is how 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:09.000 you get to these jobs. Do you think chief executives, 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:13.560 you know foot see listed companies think enough about giving back, 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:16.319 about leveling up, about making a real difference. I think 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:18.280 I'd like everybody to think a bit more about it. 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:21.240 I think there's, you know, the theoretical framework that you 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:24.600 know Michael and Andy developed with with some help, but 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:27.240 it is just a theoretical framework. You know, what matters 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:31.040 is the outcomes, and you measure stuff buy outcomes, and 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:34.600 you know we haven't delivered enough good, economically sourced, useful 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:37.959 outcomes across across Why do people not think about it more? 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:40.000 I don't know what I mean I know what I do. 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:42.320 It's always you know, how do why do other people not? 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:46.000 Part of the reason I have sort of long term 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:48.840 views about stuff, and you know, even when i'm you know, 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:51.160 and I want to change things over a period of time, 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:54.080 most people are working on a quartity and thinking on 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:56.400 a quartity basis. Or look, how numbers are terrible, inquar 0:11:56.520 --> 0:11:58.280 what can we do next quarter to get them back up? 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:00.360 Or whatever. It's your point about the you know, terms 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:03.040 of CEO. If you've got three years in that job, 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:06.040 you've got to do. You've got to deliver shareholder returns. 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:07.800 You're not going to think about the next decade, or yeah, 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:09.600 we have to think about the next decade. That's the 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:13.480 thing that the mindset changed with SIME. For politics, you know, 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:17.560 I do people players politics where has actually been a 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:20.360 politicians start with the other way around, the other way around, 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:23.000 which is wrong. And I think in business, you know, 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:28.600 short term profits become too important to focus whereas you know, 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:30.320 you want to say, you know, I've got a ten 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:31.920 year of you and this is where I want to 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:35.200 reposition the business over time, and I think that is 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:38.439 a will result in more success and actually saying don't 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:41.080 worry I'll get this sorted out in the next six months, 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:44.800 on amends twelve months. And you want to bring in talent, 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:47.000 you want to develop talent. That just takes a long time. 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:49.160 One of the things that the chief executive might say 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:51.240 as well, I've got to deliver these returns. I've got 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:53.480 these these shareholds. Of course, you're around a company which 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:56.760 is a massive shareholder and an investor in corporate Britain. Yeah, 0:12:57.040 --> 0:12:59.240 it does something need to shift in the way that 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:04.360 fifty hundred companies are owned and the relationship shareholders understand 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:07.000 that ironically that actually it ticks ticks a long time. 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:10.440 It's the it's the marginal shareholder, if you're lying, who 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:13.080 makes the most noise because they're based so much of 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:15.960 their job is based on their quarterly performance, and they 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:19.560 lose assets very quickly, and those are the marginal assets. 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:22.720 But the biggest shareholders are looking for long term returns 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:25.680 because we have sticky customers and we're enormous now we're 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:30.760 all huge companies, and but we want long term returns 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:34.000 over a decade, not short term returns over a quarter. 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:39.360 On paper, we've got a very business sort of centered government. Now, 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:42.520 obviously we've been through this amazing that this week gold Yeah, 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:46.160 exactly this week plaically. But you know, the term oil 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:50.439 of last summer was obviously remarkable and noted all around 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:53.800 the world. But we've got a prime Minister who worked 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:58.120 at Golden Sacks, worked in California. It's talked about the 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:00.679 sort of startup Briton that he wants to create, and 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:03.240 we've got a Chancellor who's also a businessman. Do you 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:06.560 think that's the right team to push through some of 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:09.400 these big structural changes in this economy that you're talking about. 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:10.720 I think I think they're a good team. I think 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:13.120 we're looking at them. Both political leaders are the good 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:17.480 people and of course apicially and Kia very good people 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:20.400 and want to deliver you know, good outcomes across the 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:22.960 UK and recognize that will take here. As you know, 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:25.920 he hasn't got long is the problem in he's like 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:28.480 a two year chief executive, right and maybe even less 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:30.520 maybe Les, Yeah, I mean that's the whole problem is 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:33.600 that people are thinking, you know, and you can't change 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:36.040 things quick enough in Britain because the planning and the 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:40.120 policy changes just take too long and therefore you end 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:43.040 up doing you know, odd things. You know, we very 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:46.200 rarely do strategic taxes. We always do stealth taxes. You know, 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:48.160 if there's a shortage, we never think about, you know, 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:50.680 what's the right thing to do over a ten year horizon. 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:53.280 It's what we need to do very quickly to get 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:56.760 some money money in. You know, the planning systems, you 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:59.840 know desperately need to reform in the UK. The whole 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:03.120 of the pensions industry needs reform in the UK. But 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:07.240 these are multi year projects. And you know, whether you 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:09.960 get people like myself to work on those multi year 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:13.520 projects and help get them passed without having to the 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:18.240 timetable of a political party to support them is is 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:21.120 a very interesting question. I think, going going forward, what 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:28.600 would labor do. I don't know what l E talks with. No, No, 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:30.720 I like them as well. I think they're good people 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:33.240 trying to do a good job. So we're fortunate and 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:36.280 we've got you know, people who are quite similar in 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:39.080 many ways about what they want to see as the outcome, 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:42.120 and it's the outcome that matters and their pro business 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:44.640 and their pro business which is good. And I think 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:47.960 they are pro business, which is good because you know, 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:51.760 business is the Whether these policies have to be delivered, 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:54.720 and you know it's the delivery part of stuff that 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:58.400 has been lacking in so many areas across the UK 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:02.320 such a long period of time. You know, we you know, 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:05.880 DC pensions desperately need reforming in Britain so that they're 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:09.040 competitive with you know, the four or one case in America, 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:11.640 but also the Swiss system, the Australian system, the French system, 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:15.560 all of whom have modernized pension system because we've not 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:18.600 had you know, anybody in government for assicient long, soficiently 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:21.920 long to drive through read real change. So we need 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:26.160 long termism that people have collectively bought into and to 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:28.320 really make a difference. So if you had a seven 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:33.200 year tenure as prime minister, you've mentioned planning pensions, what 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:36.360 would be the biggest priority beyond your intron like day one? 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:40.080 I think those take a tiny amount of time to 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:43.120 really sort them out properly by getting everybody in the 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:46.360 room to collaborate whatever. But I would see myself as 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:49.120 the advisor to the prime minister, not the prime minister. 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:52.720 That's too difficult a job and it's a very overly 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:56.000 demanding job. Whereas you know, I can be you know, 0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:59.359 deep subject matter experts on things and actually help facilitate 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:04.439 change in the UK. But you know, the education system still, 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:07.800 you know, it's brilliant for the elite but actually under 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:10.280 really talented, but it's not good enough for everyone else. 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:13.639 And just recognizing that, you know, we need a massive 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:17.639 amount of investment, both from internally, from the pension funds 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:21.119 who've got five trillion of assets, but actually you know 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:24.600 foreign direct investment that stays for a long period of time. 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:27.480 You know, you know, our car industry is gradually eking away, 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:32.440 the city's gradually shrinking, and these things we need to correct. 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:35.119 Through the years, You've had many headlines and papers. Were 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:38.000 there any that you were unhappy about? It was one 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:42.119 in particular where we were labeled as dull but worthy. 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:44.959 That was the headline, dull still but worthy. So I 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:47.240 was really upset about what did your wife think that? Well, 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:50.840 well she knew that was true, but there's not there 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:54.080 was not my image of myself and so but actually 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:57.520 a few footy hundred CEOs, particularly in the financial service 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:00.720 called me up and said, amazing, headlight out. I would 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:02.960 I would love that dream of that right, dream of 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:09.080 that was classes, But it was the dulness bit and 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:12.159 which was really really I never think of myself as 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:17.400 a dull person, but obviously sometimes I am. I'm sure 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:20.280 shareholders what were very happy about that as long as 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:24.119 it was incrementally returned it well, they were, they were happy. 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:26.320 What would it take for you to accept another big 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:28.600 foot see one. I'm not going to do that. You know, 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:33.240 I've decided that not yet. You're not ever. You know 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:36.600 the unfinished business from earlier parts of my life that 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:40.080 I that I had intended to go too much earlier 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:43.040 in my original regional plan was, you know, do twenty 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:45.240 years in business, you know, go to McKinsey and all 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:47.600 the rest of its. Learn a lot very quickly in McKinsey. Then, 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:49.639 so this is teaching, you want to go back to 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:52.880 teaching of coarencing outcomes. I think it's really it's really 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:53.920 what I want to do. And I'm going to do 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:55.800 some more sport. You know, I love playing sports. You 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:58.360 know I lived university life. You know it's intellectually curious 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:00.480 and enjoyed sports. This is the perfect take place for 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:04.520 me to go. Regrets to be you just don't have 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:07.720 the same influence and I respect one hundred percent respect academics. Yeah, 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:10.280 and policy advisors. But if you're you know, the chief 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:14.200 executive of the biggest footsy one hundred company, you're you're 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:16.000 going to have more skin in the game and more influence. 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:19.320 We have parlticians. Yes, no, I think that's true. I 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:22.320 do think that's true, But but it's not that, you know, 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:24.600 can I do another rule where I have a huge 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:27.960 amount of influence? And that's the challenge I'm setting setting 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:32.119 myself where I'm not in some ways constrained by you know, 0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:34.840 the legal and general position on stuff because we you know, 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:37.399 we own you know, every footsie hundred company and etcetera 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:41.119 is And that's one of my personal goals. What's the 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:43.720 rule that would give me huge amount of satisfaction where 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:47.359 I could deliver outcomes, not reports which sit on the shelf, 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:51.320 but actually outcomes which will result in much better solutions 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:53.840 for the UK and change the culture so that we 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:56.200 become you know, this is the vision, this is the 0:19:56.280 --> 0:19:58.040 north start, and this is how we're going to get there. 0:19:58.040 --> 0:19:59.520 And it's not going to be linear, it's going to 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:02.080 be up and but actually, you know, people have the 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:05.080 confidence in that you have the capability to get there, 0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:07.280 and you build the team that believes they're going to 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:09.720 get there. And if you if you're going to advise 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:13.359 committees and advise politicians, how domestic are you that some 0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:16.440 of these trends you mentioned the dwindling city here, dwindling 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:19.439 car industry, that these things really can be reversed. I 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:21.560 think there can be. Ellengy is a good example of 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:23.479 that is that you know, we would you know, not 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:27.119 doing well you know, in the after the after the 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:29.960 financial crisis, and we've done you know very well, you know, 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:31.840