1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,160 Speaker 1: On another story that's gotten a lot of attention this morning, 2 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: this incredible headline that the Trump administration accidentally texted me 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: its war plans. Have to ask, Steven, have you inadvertently 4 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: ever been added to a group chat that you didn't 5 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:12,960 Speaker 1: want to be in group chat? 6 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 2: I mean generally when anyone answered to any group chat, 7 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 2: I kind of eye roll and then mute. 8 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: It made it forever. 9 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 2: Had it been had it been me and not Jeffrey Goldberg, 10 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 2: perhaps things could have been very different. But it is 11 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 2: an incredible story in the Atlantic and his account of 12 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 2: how he was added to this group. He thought it 13 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 2: was a hoax, as we heard from him, but followed 14 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:33,879 Speaker 2: it through and was only really able to clarify that 15 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 2: this was serious when after the strikes happen that we're 16 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 2: talking about actually happened. Of course, the questions now as 17 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 2: to the nature of the national security breach, why high 18 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 2: level officials are using this app, and certainly some interesting 19 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 2: commentary to to be digested by European leaders. Let's get 20 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 2: into it with our senior editor Bill Ferries and our 21 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 2: managing editor for European Economics and Government, Ben Sills. Bill 22 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 2: to christ how damaging is this league for the white eyes. 23 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,399 Speaker 3: Well, for starters, it's just hugely embarrassing. I mean when 24 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 3: you look at you know, President Trump fought off accusations 25 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 3: that he was improperly storing classified material in at his 26 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 3: Florida resort for years, and he ran his original campaign 27 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 3: partly on criticism of Hillary Clinton's shoddy handling of classified 28 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 3: material and and her decision to use a private server 29 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:31,759 Speaker 3: to look at State Department documents at home. So these 30 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 3: are folks who have really kind of you know, run 31 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 3: their political careers on their attention to classified regulations and 32 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 3: keeping secure documents safe. And so to have this have 33 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 3: this pop up on a you know, on a commercial 34 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 3: messaging app that includes a senior editor and an editor 35 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 3: who Trump has a kind of a negative reaction to. Anyways, 36 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 3: it's just it's hugelymbarrassing. But it also just raises very 37 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 3: practical questions about, you know, has this been occurring elsewhere? 38 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 3: Has there been a regular sharing of top secret material 39 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 3: on these kind of systems, and who else has perhaps 40 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 3: seen some of these things? 41 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: Right? Hugely embarrassing, yes, for the US administration. But what 42 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: does Europe think all this? Let's bring that question to 43 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 1: Ben Sils. There's been a lot of criticism of Europe 44 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: in that text exchange, including describing European countries as freeloading. 45 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 1: How are these comments going to be read in Europe? 46 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 4: I think they'll find them quite useful in Europe, to 47 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 4: be honest, we know JD. Vance's views on Europe from 48 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 4: his lacerating speech to the Munich Security Conference a few 49 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 4: weeks ago, So there's nothing really surprising in here. I 50 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 4: think that we're seeing in Europe. There's a debate about 51 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 4: how far how fast European nations are prepared to go 52 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 4: in terms of their funding for defense, and that's all 53 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 4: about establishing a degree of independence from the US as 54 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 4: quickly as possible. And these comments are going to be 55 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 4: helpful for the more hawkish members, you know, participants in 56 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 4: that conversation, to encourage the more cautious leaders, perhaps those 57 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 4: who think there's still potential to salvage something from this 58 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 4: relationship with the Trump White House. I think we'll encourage 59 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 4: the more hawkish out of that debate, say come on, 60 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 4: we've got we've got we've got to cough up, and 61 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:20,639 Speaker 4: we've got we've got to sort this out ourselves. 62 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 2: Does it really go that much further? Than what we've 63 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 2: heard from Trump administration officials already in terms of their 64 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 2: attitudes towards Europe. The present themselves hasn't been shy of 65 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 2: saying that Europe needs to step up. 66 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 4: I don't think it goes further. I think I think 67 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 4: it's just you know, when you hear people speaking frankly 68 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 4: in what they believe to be a private group, you 69 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 4: get a sense of the tone the languages really is 70 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 4: really derogatory, really dismissive. And I think that in that 71 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 4: respect it leaves the US looking extremely, extremely bad, extremely 72 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 4: kind of kind of small mind. And I think in 73 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 4: that respect, but in terms of the substance it doesn't 74 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 4: go a lot than what we've seen before. 75 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: Bill, what has the current response from the White House been? 76 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting. I mean, you had Pete Haigs at 77 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 3: the Defense Secretary landing in Hawaii on a work trip 78 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 3: and he said, well, nobody quote, nobody was texting war plans. 79 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 3: But over at the National Security Council, the spokesman there, 80 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 3: Brian Hughes, basically said that the message appears to be authentic. 81 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 3: When you read Jeffrey Goldberg's story, you realize he leaves 82 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 3: a lot out or he says he left a lot out, 83 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 3: that there were details in that messaging group, very specific 84 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 3: details about the types of weapons that would be used, 85 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 3: how they're getting some of their information. There was the 86 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 3: name of a CIA agent who was going to be 87 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 3: included in some of the discussions that he left out. 88 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 3: So it goes a lot deeper. It appears to go 89 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,359 Speaker 3: a lot deeper than what he just puts in the story. 90 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 3: So it's not just the derogatory comments about Europe and 91 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 3: kind of the shock about them having this discuss over Signal, 92 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 3: but it really gets into material that is normally only discussed, 93 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 3: for instance, in the tank, the secure room at the Pentagon, 94 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 3: or in other secure facilities around Washington. It's not something 95 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 3: that goes public. So the reaction is basically the public reaction, 96 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 3: I think is still going to unfold. There's going to 97 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 3: be a real question about whether someone like National Security 98 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 3: Advisor Mike Waltz keeps his job or not going forward. 99 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 3: He is the one, according to the article, that kind 100 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 3: of created this group on Signal. 101 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 4: Yeah. 102 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 2: Indeed, and also be interesting to monitor what the Republican 103 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 2: Party more broadly says about this as well. Of course, 104 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 2: they've always painted themselves as the Party of National Securities. 105 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 2: It doesn't look good from their point of view either. 106 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 3: No, not at all. And the really interesting thing in 107 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,039 Speaker 3: terms of the timing is that I believe it's today 108 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 3: in Washington, Tuesday, and Wednesday in Washington you have a 109 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 3: previously scheduled hearing with the heads of the different intelligence 110 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 3: agencies that includes Tulci Gabbert, the Director of National Intelligence. 111 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 3: This is obviously going to be front and center when 112 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 3: they talk about this meeting about worldwide threats. The first 113 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 3: question is going to be has the you know, the 114 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 3: Republican administration here in this case put out information that 115 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 3: we don't want our adversaries to know about. So that's 116 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 3: going to be very interesting to watch, going to be 117 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 3: must CTV. 118 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 1: I think, Ben, do you think this raises intelligence sharing 119 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: fears around Europe that intel shared with America might not 120 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 1: be safe? 121 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 4: One hundred percent? Yeah. I mean it's just shambolic and amateurs, 122 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 4: isn't it. And if you are charged with handling information 123 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 4: that could affect the well being of agents or allies 124 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 4: operating in kind of hostile situations, you're going to be 125 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 4: very worried about sharing that sort of information with them. 126 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 4: With officials who handle their own comms and such a 127 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 4: such a kind of cavalier fashion. 128 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 2: Ben For many in Europe, watching this unfold comes as 129 00:06:58,080 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 2: a bit of a side show to the bigger question 130 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 2: of tariffs. Were of course looking forward to the President's 131 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,679 Speaker 2: announcements on the second of April. How will this feed 132 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 2: into the conversation around how Europe could be hit by 133 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 2: tariffs in the US. 134 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 4: That's a good question. I mean, I think that the 135 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 4: European response on tariffs has been reasonably measured, But measured 136 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 4: in this sense does mean if the US comes out 137 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 4: with a maximalist tariff policy, then the Europeans have got 138 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 4: similarly far reaching plans that they've already got drafted. So 139 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 4: they are kind of stiffening the sinews at this point, 140 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 4: bracing themselves to find out what exactly they're going to 141 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 4: get next week. But they've got a full range of 142 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 4: options lined up, and I think this will probably just 143 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 4: serve as one more reminder that they need to stand up, 144 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 4: stick together in order to push back against this administration.