WEBVTT - How Pacifism Works (And Could It?) 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:01.600 Hey, Stuff you Should Know has brought to you in 0:00:01.639 --> 0:00:03.840 part by Blue Apron. They are affordable for less than 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:06.840 ten dollars per person per meal. They have a variety 0:00:06.840 --> 0:00:09.479 of great new recipes each week to choose from. They 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:12.680 are super flexible because you can customize those recipes each 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:16.080 week based on your preferences. It's easy, and it's guaranteed. 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:20.080 Blue Aprons Freshness Guaranteed promises that every ingredient in your 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:22.280 delivery arrives ready to cook or they'll make it right. 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:24.239 Check out this week's venue to get your first three 0:00:24.239 --> 0:00:27.120 meals free with free shipping by going to Blue Apron 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:32.080 dot com slash stuff. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:41.120 from how Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:44.280 the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles to Chuck Bryant, 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:50.560 and there's Jerry. Everybody's getting along nicely in here. You 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:54.240 have a very interesting outfit on thank you. I'm not 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:59.320 for saying such a variety of patterns in one torso. Yeah, 0:00:59.800 --> 0:01:04.080 like that's interesting. I got yours is great. Yeah. I 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:06.800 got sort of made fun of in high school for 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:10.760 combining patterns and I never did it again in the 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:14.040 ninth grade, Like it was yesterday. Yeah, I got a 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:17.720 wore like a I think I wore like checkered shorts 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:20.360 and a striped shirt. I think you should publicly shame 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:22.440 those people buy stuff. But it was like he was 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:25.399 not supposed to combine patterns. It's like, well, in fact, 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:27.720 I didn't know that. I didn't say that, but and 0:01:27.840 --> 0:01:30.080 old Chuck would have. I'm suddenly sick and need to 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:33.360 go home. I have a wet spot in my pants. 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:35.800 It's funny, like I can't see because you have a beard. 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:38.360 But I wondered if that was a turtleneck you were 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:40.640 wearing for a second and then you moved. I'm like, 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:45.080 it's are it's a mock turnlent. Remember that Steve job style? Yeah, 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:47.800 I saw that movie. Have you seen that? The one 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:51.960 with the Yeah, Nope, it was good. I'm sure that 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:55.160 guy's great. He's great. Kate wins boy, she's the ticket. 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:59.160 She plays Steve was new ski. Uh that was actually 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:05.480 what's his name? Saith the that's I forgot. He was good. Yeah, 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:07.960 I mean acting was just great, and it was What 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:10.280 was the problem? Then? Why is there a curse on 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:12.800 any movie that has to do with Steve? Not a curse? Thing. 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:15.400 I think like, there were Academy Award nominations on that movie. 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:20.399 Um it was Danny Boyle, which is great. That guy 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:23.560 can do like any genre. But um, it was written 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:25.760 by Aaron Sorkin, who I had a little problem with. 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:28.680 That was the problem. I knew there was some problem 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:30.919 with it. And I know everyone thinks he's God's gift 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:37.359 of writing, but well, Aeron Sorkin, he's just so wordy, man, 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:40.320 that's just so many words. I know. I never was 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:43.720 like the perfect retort at the tip of their talm. Yeah, 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:46.679 it's like none of his movies speak of reality of 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:48.920 the way people really talk, which to me is the 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:51.800 mark of a good writer. Right. But you know, it 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:55.280 was good. It was a good movie. That aside. I'll 0:02:55.320 --> 0:02:58.079 check it out sometime then. Yeah, it was very nice. 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:00.720 Steve Jobs, and you get over the fact that, uh 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:06.120 that's the full title Steve Jobs. You get over the 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:08.919 factor at least I did that Fast Spender doesn't look 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:11.440 anything like Steve Jobs, because when it came out, I 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:12.880 was like, oh, man, like I am I going to 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:16.000 get past that. It's Michael Foss Sender. But um, we 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:18.560 did it well. That's the mark of a quality actors. 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:22.399 He had a job scene Aura about him and that's 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:25.680 my movie pick of the week. Nice ding ding ding. 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:29.880 Then we need like a jingle now pacifism? Yeah, or 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:32.680 are we ready to get started? Let's just let's tear 0:03:32.760 --> 0:03:34.200 through this one. This is a good one. You like 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:38.680 this one? Yeah? This is a request by me. Oh yeah, 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:44.559 and it got done. Pretty psyched about it. Yeah. Um 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:48.280 So would you before researching this, would you have called 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:51.560 yourself a pacifist? Well, I would not have known the 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:56.440 specific kind of pacifists. Now I do, but um, I'm 0:03:56.480 --> 0:03:59.560 a I'm a kind of pacifist for sure, extremely violent 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:02.760 past fists. Like you know, I'm well known to have 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:07.600 never hit another human or been hit myself. I've never 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:12.800 been a fistfight. Yeah, so that's a kind of pacifism. Um. 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:17.080 But I'm also like you know, sometimes like I think 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:19.480 you kind of have to go to war maybe if 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:23.880 you're fighting slavery or hitler. Yeah. There's a lot of 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:28.200 a lot of conundra, Yeah, I think that'd be right, um, 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:32.200 surrounding pacifism and the decision of whether or not to 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:35.200 use violence. Yeah, I mean even Gandhi Forgot's sakes. Before 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:36.719 people are like oh, Manne Chuck, I thought you were 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:39.800 a chill dude. Gandhi was a chill dude, and he 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:44.320 even said, you know, but hey, sometimes you have to 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:47.279 to take up arms. Yeah. I think it's good that 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:50.440 you characterize Gandhi as a chill dude rather than a pacifist, 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:54.040 because he pretty technically was not the pacifist that that 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:56.839 most people consider him to be. Your think he was. 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:02.279 He actually said it's cited in this article. No, you know, 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:04.560 like you should be able to defend yourself. He believed 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:06.839 that India should be able to defend itself after it 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:10.760 gained independence if someone else was an aggressor against the state. 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:15.239 Um he suggested that some of his fellow Indians fight 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:18.680 alongside the British in South Africa during the Boer War. 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:25.000 Not very pacifist. So his his views and identity and 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:28.120 the fact that he's still considered a pacifist kind of 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:35.600 reveals that pacifism is actually almost never the staunch version 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:38.039 that people think of when they think of pacifism, which 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:41.120 is no violence under any circumstances. Yeah, very few people 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:43.440 can or want to it. Here to that, I'm not 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:45.839 certain that anyone's ever been able to do it in 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:48.480 the history of humanity. Yeah, I mean I should add 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:51.000 for myself. And I think I've said this before. I 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:53.960 never avoided a fight either. It has never happened. Like 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:56.839 if someone came and hit me in the face, I'd 0:05:56.960 --> 0:05:59.880 do my best job to swing back. I've seen a 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:02.520 I've seen a bar fight or two on TV. I 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:07.200 just do it. Burt Reynolds didn't. Yeah, he he got 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:10.359 the job done. Yeah, thinking what uh, throw like a 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:12.719 beer picture in a guy's face and he trips over 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:14.599 his friend, and then you make a kind of funny 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:17.000 laugh and then you throw him out the front window 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:20.279 of the bar and I'll play banjo along, but I'll 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:22.640 do the score. And in the end, though, you end 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:24.360 up slapping backs with the guy you were in a 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:25.839 fight with, and you all just have a good laugh 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:30.400 about it. That's how it goes, all right. So let's 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:35.640 talk pacifism, man, all right? The the uh the word itself, actually, 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:39.560 pacificus is what it is derived from. It's old Latin word. 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:42.919 Everybody knows Latin super old. But the use of the 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:45.880 word pacifist in the way that we use it today 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:49.240 is actually fairly news from I think a peace conference 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:53.240 in nineteen o six that it was officially coined. And 0:06:53.279 --> 0:07:00.279 although that concept, this pacifism that we understand it today, Um, 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:03.760 it did kind of spring out of this rational humanist 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:08.640 peace movement that came as a result of the um 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:12.520 just this transformation of people in the nineteenth century. People 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:17.160 have been espousing pacifist police for many, many thousands of years. Now. 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:20.160 Sure they just didn't call it that. No, called it 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:23.080 being a chill dude. Right, should we get in the 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:25.760 old way back machine. Let's man, I was hoping you'd 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:35.880 say that. All right, it's fired up, and um, it's 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:38.200 quite lovely in here, like the music you picked out, 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:42.320 Thank you, it is very nice. Um. I thought you 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:44.920 were gonna have on like rage against the Machine or something. No, no, 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:50.280 because they're a pacifist, are they don't know? I could 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:52.840 see them being pacifists. Actually yeah, well I said it 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:54.480 as a joke. Then I was like, well, wait a minute, 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:57.920 it rang a bell. I really have to think about that. Yeah. Uh, 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:00.240 they strike me as a kind of dude that well, 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:02.480 I don't even know. I don't know those guys. You 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:04.920 don't know reads against the Machine their musicians, No, but 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:07.800 I saw Zack and l A he loved in my neighborhood. 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:09.880 It's like to see him getting tacos all the time. 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:16.640 We shall fight the power, he said, wrong group. Uh 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:19.520 so passivism if you want to talk about the O G, 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:22.640 or at least the O G that. I'm sure there 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:26.400 were pacifists around, but the one that got notoriety at 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:29.880 least first one was probably said Hartha, as you point out, 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:36.280 the grand founder of Buddhism, who said, you know what, Uh, 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:39.640 this this fighting, this warrior stuff is no good for me. 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:43.400 And so I'm gonna break with that tradition and um, 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:48.640 I'm gonna try and and take the path less traveled. Yeah. 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:54.000 And he uh, he was a part of the warrior cast, right. Yeah, 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:56.720 So him saying no, I'm not doing this, I'm not 0:08:56.760 --> 0:09:00.520 fighting was pretty significant, so much so that a religion 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:06.280 formed around him, Buddhism. Right, So he's kind of credited 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:08.680 as one of the one of the earliest pacifists, at 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:14.119 least on record. And um, pretty quickly his his pacifist 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:18.520 views spread, and um, there was a king who was 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:23.480 Buddhist king in India. His name was Ashoka, great name, 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:26.480 by the way, and um, he said, you know what, 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:28.720 my kingdom is not going to be involved in any 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:31.679 more wars of conquest because I'm a devout Buddhist. Now 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:35.200 it's a great way to go. The Greeks followed with 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:39.120 their Stoicists. Boy, I could not have said that in 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:42.680 the old toothless days. That would presented a lot of 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:47.280 problems the Stoicists. They were definitely not down with violence. 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:52.839 Of course, Jesus himself was known to be a pretty 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:58.359 chill dude. Yeah, he said, turn the other cheek man. Yeah. Famously. 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.440 In fact, one of his followers, Roman named Maximilian uh 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:06.680 Very famously became one of the early Christian martyrs when 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:08.760 he said, you know what, I'm not going to serve 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:10.960 in your legion. I'm not gonna kill anyone. And they said, fine, 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:14.360 we'll kill you. Yeah, he said fine. Which is the 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:16.880 irony of all this is, as you'll see you throughout 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:20.360 this whole podcast, is all these pacifists over the years, 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:23.480 they're like, I don't want to fight, Like, all right, well, 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:25.560 we're gonna be violent on you and make your life 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:27.920 a living hell. You're like, I just don't want to 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:30.880 fight you. Guys would fight anyone else. Just leave me alone. 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:33.920 I know it's a. I don't know what it is 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:37.440 like this this um, Well, it's it's a duty and 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:41.520 an obligation. I think that war ists and we'll talk 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:43.560 about war is um, which is the other end of 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:46.480 the spectrum. I think that's what they feel like. It 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:48.840 is like, no, you have a duty to take up 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:51.880 arms against an aggressor against you or your countrymen. Yeah, 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:55.520 go kill that guy. Somebody of a higher socioeconomic status 0:10:55.559 --> 0:11:00.880 commanded you. Yeah, pretty much. So moving long, we'll just 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:04.280 jump forward to Renaissance Europe. Yes, just much nicer them, Right, 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:08.080 there was this um this thanks to the the blossoming 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:12.319 of science, there was a this kind of idea that 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:15.319 well there was the foundation of humanism, right, that humans 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:17.880 should take care of other humans, and part and parcel 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:20.920 to that was kind of picking up on the idea 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:24.320 of pacifism, and it really started to take root in 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:28.400 uh Europe, in the Western world around that time, during 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:32.120 during the Renaissance, thanks in part um to a guy 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:37.319 named Erasmus, that's writer who famously said building a city 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:40.599 is much better than destroying one. He probably dropped the 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:43.600 mic and was like argue with that right there, Like 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:47.520 Mike's haven't even been invented yet. Uh. And then, of course, 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:49.480 if we jump ahead a little bit more to the 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:53.080 early days of what would become the United States. Uh, 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:56.840 there were people here called Mennonites and Quakers who came 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:00.600 to colonial America too, so they could just sort of 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:04.920 be among themselves and beat chill dudes. Then the Revolutionary 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.960 War broke out and they're like, ah, what do we 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:11.319 do now? Yeah, we came here to beat chill dudes, 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:14.600 and now everyone expects us to fight for our freedoms. Yeah. 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:18.360 And actually Pennsylvania was this. I was watching this short 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:21.640 video about pacifism yesterday, I think, and they were talking 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.600 about Pennsylvania and how like it was the first colony 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:28.640 to to um outlaw slavery, and um, there was just 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:31.000 a lot because of the influence of the Quakers and 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:34.360 the Mennonites, there was a lot of um, well just 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:37.920 kind of pacifist ideals. Yeah, and they it thrived, like 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:41.160 Philadelphia was the most important city in the colonies at 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:44.440 the time. It was in Pennsylvania. Um. But yeah, when 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:48.640 the when the Revolutionary War broke out, it was it 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:53.800 was tough to be a Quaker pacifist because, um, everybody 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:56.120 else is saying Hey, does that mean you're loyal to 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:58.319 the king, because if so, we're gonna beat you up. 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:00.680 And then the Tories would say, hey, you have to 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:02.719 come fight with us. You're obviously loyal to the king. 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:07.280 You're not fighting with the uh, the rebels, So come 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:08.960 fight with us, and they'd say no. So they were 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:10.719 caught between this rock and the hard place, where both 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:15.800 sides just treated the friends very um badly. Yeah. In 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:24.320 seventeen seven seven one seven seven seven uh, seventeen breakers. Yeah, 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:28.000 in seventeen seventy seven, seventeen Quaker leaders were accused of 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.400 treason and they were exiled to Virginia by the Whigs, 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:33.040 and I guess they got there were like, Virginia is 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:36.160 not so bad, right, not much of a punishment, but 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:39.440 they wanted to be home in Pennsylvania. Oh, tobacco, you 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:43.280 can smoke probafully so uh. And then if you know, 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:46.200 like you said, if you're a Quaker who stuck to 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:50.680 your pacifist ideals, um, you could have been abused or 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:53.280 you could have had your property confiscated. It was not good. 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:56.920 And apparently they were so committed that when the war 0:13:57.000 --> 0:14:00.880 broke out, when the revolution broke out, um, they the 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:04.440 Quakers who were running the government all quit. They all resigned, 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:06.360 and so we can't we can't have anything to do 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:10.080 with this. So we're gonna go make oatmeal and fine 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:16.040 furnitures exactly. Uh. The Napoleonic Wars in the eighteen hundreds 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:20.480 was a very bloody affair. They were a very bloody affair. 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:24.440 And so this gave rise to a lot of people saying, hey, 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:28.360 like the London Peace Society, maybe maybe we should try 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:30.320 and think of a different way to go about resolving 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:33.320 our conflicts rather than just like trying to kill more 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:35.560 people than the other guys. Yeah. Apparently the War of 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:40.880 eighteen twelve was extremely unpopular in the United States, and um, 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:46.360 that combined with the Napoleonic Wars uh in Europe, just 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:51.280 kind of allowed this mentality to really blossom and on 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:54.400 the continent and in the in the States where this 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:57.920 this peace movement kind of developed over the nineteenth century 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:02.040 and um, things were going dotty. Well, actually it was 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:05.120 getting a lot of attraction. People are starting to think like, hey, 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:07.800 maybe we can go without war and maybe we can 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:12.400 just be peaceful. And then the Civil War happened. They 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:15.800 ran headlong into this problem, right, because there there's this 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:19.920 immediate problem that was facing the pacifists. There was great, 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:21.760 you guys are doing a heck of a job keeping 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:25.960 the peace. But part of that piece is there's a 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.240 group of people over here who are enslaved, living in horrific, 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:34.480 brutal conditions, being forced into labor against their will. Um, 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:37.560 so what do you say about that? How does that 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:42.720 is that peace? Okay? And the path was still grappled 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:45.800 with that one today. Yeah. There was a writer name 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:49.560 Angelina grim Key well the political activists and very much 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:52.720 into peace as an advocate, and she said, oh, yes, 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:55.320 war is better than slavery. So I think there were 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:57.360 quite a few pacifists that probably said, you know what, 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:00.560 sometimes you just have to take up arms and do 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:04.640 what's right, right, you know, Yeah, I mean, and it 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:09.160 created a big division in the pacifist movements. Um, that 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:12.880 American Civil War. Um. And like I said, people are 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:15.840 still grappling with it today. But before they could, before 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:19.480 the whole thing could sink in, um, pacivism, I think 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:24.880 kind of uh, it congealed again because it seems like 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:28.680 when World War One finally came, pacivism was was back. 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:32.320 It was a thing still hadn't just been blown away 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:36.360 by uh Napoleon or um the city of the American 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:39.520 Civil War. You know, should we take a break. Let's 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:41.360 all right, let's take a break and we'll come back 0:16:41.400 --> 0:17:05.920 and talk a little bit more about the opposite of pescivism. 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:07.840 All right. So you put this thing together and you 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:10.359 did a bang up job. This is no this I 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:13.800 expanded on a Patrick Kaiger joint. Oh was this from 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:18.480 our original article? Oh? Well, at any rate, you and 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:23.320 Patrick did a great job. But you guys make a 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:26.280 great point that if you want to understand pacifism, you 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:30.120 have to understand war. And uh there was this pacifist 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:34.639 name and a writer named Arthur Ponson b Yeah, he 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:37.399 was a member of parliament, Okay, and he has this 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:42.120 great quote from one of his writings about war. War 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:46.280 is a monster born of hypocrisy, fed on falsehood, fattened 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:51.119 on humbug that really dates it, kept alive by superstition, 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:54.639 directed to the death and torture of millions, succeeded in 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:59.000 no high purpose, degrading to humanity, endangering civilization, and bringing 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:02.399 forth in its travail, hideous brood of strife, conflict in 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:07.480 war more war. Pretty down view on war yeah, and 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:11.960 I think most people, probably even professional soldiers, would agree 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:18.080 with posombes Um assessment. Right, there's no there, there's basically 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:20.920 no one out there who's like, no word's good, Ward's great, 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:23.680 Let's go to war, right now, Go find somebody to 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:26.600 go to war with. People don't think like that, right, Generally, 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:31.080 that's not the that's not the mentality. Even even that's 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:33.320 not the basis of war is and warism is the 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:38.359 idea that um war can be morally justified and there's 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:41.800 even some circumstances that could require it. Right. And if 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:45.600 you go back to the early Christian Church, the earliest 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:50.320 version of it, um there was basically nothing but non 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:55.200 violent pacifism. And then the Church started to join forces 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:58.840 with the state, the government uh specifically at first and 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:02.560 the guys of the Holy Roman Empire, and the Holy 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:07.080 Roman Empire was all about conquest, getting new land, subduing people, 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:10.760 and so one of the tasks that fell the theologians, 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:14.600 Christian theologians was to figure out a way to justify that, 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:18.080 and starting with I believe St. Augustine, they came up 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:21.439 with this concept called the just war, and the just 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:25.720 war basically says it effectively canceled out the possibility of 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:31.479 absolute pascivism, where absolute pacivism is just war and violence 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:35.119 are never justified under any circumstances. This was there is 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:39.600 such a thing as um a war that is that 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:42.280 can be conducted in a certain way, that can be 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:45.920 entered into for all the right reasons. And if all 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:48.480 these conditions are met, then you have a just war. 0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:54.840 And technically you're not really breaking any any Christian ideals 0:19:54.920 --> 0:20:00.359 or morals. Still morally uh, justifiable. And those are the 0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:04.200 two the two big questions that you just said are uh, 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:09.000 simply when is it justified? And once you have justified it, 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:12.560 how how do you go about it? Um? And in 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:16.280 the in regards to the first one, there are six conditions, 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:18.560 and we should point out that in order for it 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:20.119 to be a just war, you have to meet all 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:23.080 these conditions. Yeah, not some. Yeah it's not like the 0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:25.760 first couple, but never mind, we got most of two 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:28.240 through six. The war must be made on behalf of 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:31.000 a just cause is number one. The decision to go 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:33.760 to war must be made by proper authorities. It can't 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:37.640 be some jackass, right uh. Participants must have a good 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:42.600 intention um, rather than revenge or greed that's a big one. Yeah, 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:45.560 it takes care of a few wars. What do you mean, 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:49.560 just like canceled smell must be likely that peace will emerge. 0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:53.960 That like should be the ultimate goal. Um, not award 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:56.440 that would lead to another war. And that's that mentality 0:20:56.440 --> 0:20:59.520 I'm talking about, Like when people who even warlike people 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:02.080 will say, well, it's the that the goal is peace. 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:04.919 You just have to do it through violence, which is 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:08.960 tough to wrap your head around, especially if you're going 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:10.920 to war is a last resort. That's a big one. 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:14.679 These are all big And then finally, the total amount 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:18.000 of evil. It's like a formula. The total amount of 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:20.680 evil resulting from the war is outweighed by the good 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:23.399 that will come out of the war. Right, So you 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:27.240 have to fulfill all six of those before entering the war, 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:30.359 right right. And then once you're in the war, you 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:33.760 have to say, okay, um, what parameters do we have 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:36.960 to work within for it to remain a just war? 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:40.800 And we actually did an episode yeah the Rules of 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:42.800 War up. So it was pretty good if I remember correctly. 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:48.120 We recorded that in serious studios in DC. Remember that 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:53.240 that was weird. It's just to show how great we 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:55.800 are or were they trying to pilot us or something? 0:21:55.920 --> 0:21:59.560 I think so, Man, you remember those days hardly. Yeah, 0:21:59.600 --> 0:22:03.440 it's a long time ago. Um, but yeah, we did 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:07.040 do that one in serious as studios and in d C. 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:11.760 I think that's weird. Um. But when you're within award 0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:17.640 to maintain it being justifiable, you basically have to, um, 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:20.520 you have to say, you have to be discriminate and 0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:23.359 the stuff you're doing has to be proportional. Right. So 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:27.600 with the proportional thing, like if somebody is shooting at 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:30.480 you with a machine gun and you fire a missile 0:22:30.560 --> 0:22:34.000 at that person, if that's the way you're conducting the war, 0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:36.800 you're you're not really carrying out a just war. But 0:22:36.920 --> 0:22:39.520 dudes are into war like no, no, no, that's exactly 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:45.320 what you should do. Yeah, and um, and then uh, 0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:48.159 discrimination is a big one, and that's the one that 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:51.280 we seem to be having increasing trouble with as the 0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:54.600 century goes on, or as the last century went on. 0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:59.320 That collateral damage where you have to discriminate between okay 0:22:59.359 --> 0:23:03.560 targets and not okay targets. Okay targets are other soldiers, 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:08.280 other members of the military, or people who are enabling 0:23:08.359 --> 0:23:12.240 the the other side. To be to carry out war. 0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:16.200 Like even workers in a factory making missiles, they're they're 0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:19.680 a justifiable target in a just war, but the people 0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:23.160 who live around the factory they're not. So if you're 0:23:23.160 --> 0:23:25.960 gonna drop a bomb on that factory, that bomb has 0:23:26.000 --> 0:23:29.320 to hit and if you if it misses and you 0:23:29.400 --> 0:23:32.600 kill those people, well then you're not carrying out a 0:23:32.640 --> 0:23:36.000 just war. Supposedly, there's been a lot of bending over 0:23:36.040 --> 0:23:39.360 backwards and say no, no, there's spillage, there's collateral damage. 0:23:39.800 --> 0:23:44.240 You're some civilians who aren't intended to be targets are 0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:46.399 going to die in a war, but you want to 0:23:46.480 --> 0:23:50.320 limit those people. And the key here is to is 0:23:50.400 --> 0:23:55.119 to not specifically target civilians. And you're, okay, that's a 0:23:55.240 --> 0:23:57.480 that's a lot of bending over that's been done as 0:23:57.520 --> 0:24:02.119 war has gotten less and less discriminate over the twentie century. Yeah, 0:24:02.160 --> 0:24:05.480 and it's um, I mean, it's kind of ironic that 0:24:05.640 --> 0:24:08.240