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Speaker 1: dot com slash stuff. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know

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Speaker 1: from how Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles to Chuck Bryant,

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Speaker 1: and there's Jerry. Everybody's getting along nicely in here. You

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Speaker 1: have a very interesting outfit on thank you. I'm not

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Speaker 1: for saying such a variety of patterns in one torso. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like that's interesting. I got yours is great. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: got sort of made fun of in high school for

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Speaker 1: combining patterns and I never did it again in the

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Speaker 1: ninth grade, Like it was yesterday. Yeah, I got a

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Speaker 1: wore like a I think I wore like checkered shorts

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Speaker 1: and a striped shirt. I think you should publicly shame

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Speaker 1: those people buy stuff. But it was like he was

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Speaker 1: not supposed to combine patterns. It's like, well, in fact,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know that. I didn't say that, but and

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Speaker 1: old Chuck would have. I'm suddenly sick and need to

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Speaker 1: go home. I have a wet spot in my pants.

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Speaker 1: It's funny, like I can't see because you have a beard.

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Speaker 1: But I wondered if that was a turtleneck you were

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Speaker 1: wearing for a second and then you moved. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: it's are it's a mock turnlent. Remember that Steve job style? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I saw that movie. Have you seen that? The one

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Speaker 1: with the Yeah, Nope, it was good. I'm sure that

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Speaker 1: guy's great. He's great. Kate wins boy, she's the ticket.

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Speaker 1: She plays Steve was new ski. Uh that was actually

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Speaker 1: what's his name? Saith the that's I forgot. He was good. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean acting was just great, and it was What

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Speaker 1: was the problem? Then? Why is there a curse on

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Speaker 1: any movie that has to do with Steve? Not a curse? Thing.

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Speaker 1: I think like, there were Academy Award nominations on that movie.

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Speaker 1: Um it was Danny Boyle, which is great. That guy

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Speaker 1: can do like any genre. But um, it was written

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Speaker 1: by Aaron Sorkin, who I had a little problem with.

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Speaker 1: That was the problem. I knew there was some problem

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Speaker 1: with it. And I know everyone thinks he's God's gift

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Speaker 1: of writing, but well, Aeron Sorkin, he's just so wordy, man,

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Speaker 1: that's just so many words. I know. I never was

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Speaker 1: like the perfect retort at the tip of their talm. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like none of his movies speak of reality of

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Speaker 1: the way people really talk, which to me is the

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Speaker 1: mark of a good writer. Right. But you know, it

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Speaker 1: was good. It was a good movie. That aside. I'll

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Speaker 1: check it out sometime then. Yeah, it was very nice.

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Speaker 1: Steve Jobs, and you get over the fact that, uh

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Speaker 1: that's the full title Steve Jobs. You get over the

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Speaker 1: factor at least I did that Fast Spender doesn't look

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Speaker 1: anything like Steve Jobs, because when it came out, I

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Speaker 1: was like, oh, man, like I am I going to

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Speaker 1: get past that. It's Michael Foss Sender. But um, we

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Speaker 1: did it well. That's the mark of a quality actors.

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Speaker 1: He had a job scene Aura about him and that's

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Speaker 1: my movie pick of the week. Nice ding ding ding.

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Speaker 1: Then we need like a jingle now pacifism? Yeah, or

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Speaker 1: are we ready to get started? Let's just let's tear

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Speaker 1: through this one. This is a good one. You like

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Speaker 1: this one? Yeah? This is a request by me. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it got done. Pretty psyched about it. Yeah. Um

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Speaker 1: So would you before researching this, would you have called

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Speaker 1: yourself a pacifist? Well, I would not have known the

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Speaker 1: specific kind of pacifists. Now I do, but um, I'm

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Speaker 1: a I'm a kind of pacifist for sure, extremely violent

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Speaker 1: past fists. Like you know, I'm well known to have

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Speaker 1: never hit another human or been hit myself. I've never

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Speaker 1: been a fistfight. Yeah, so that's a kind of pacifism. Um.

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Speaker 1: But I'm also like you know, sometimes like I think

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Speaker 1: you kind of have to go to war maybe if

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Speaker 1: you're fighting slavery or hitler. Yeah. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: a lot of conundra, Yeah, I think that'd be right, um,

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Speaker 1: surrounding pacifism and the decision of whether or not to

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Speaker 1: use violence. Yeah, I mean even Gandhi Forgot's sakes. Before

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Speaker 1: people are like oh, Manne Chuck, I thought you were

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Speaker 1: a chill dude. Gandhi was a chill dude, and he

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Speaker 1: even said, you know, but hey, sometimes you have to

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Speaker 1: to take up arms. Yeah. I think it's good that

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Speaker 1: you characterize Gandhi as a chill dude rather than a pacifist,

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Speaker 1: because he pretty technically was not the pacifist that that

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Speaker 1: most people consider him to be. Your think he was.

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Speaker 1: He actually said it's cited in this article. No, you know,

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Speaker 1: like you should be able to defend yourself. He believed

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Speaker 1: that India should be able to defend itself after it

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Speaker 1: gained independence if someone else was an aggressor against the state.

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Speaker 1: Um he suggested that some of his fellow Indians fight

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Speaker 1: alongside the British in South Africa during the Boer War.

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Speaker 1: Not very pacifist. So his his views and identity and

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Speaker 1: the fact that he's still considered a pacifist kind of

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Speaker 1: reveals that pacifism is actually almost never the staunch version

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Speaker 1: that people think of when they think of pacifism, which

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Speaker 1: is no violence under any circumstances. Yeah, very few people

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Speaker 1: can or want to it. Here to that, I'm not

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Speaker 1: certain that anyone's ever been able to do it in

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Speaker 1: the history of humanity. Yeah, I mean I should add

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Speaker 1: for myself. And I think I've said this before. I

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Speaker 1: never avoided a fight either. It has never happened. Like

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Speaker 1: if someone came and hit me in the face, I'd

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Speaker 1: do my best job to swing back. I've seen a

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Speaker 1: I've seen a bar fight or two on TV. I

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Speaker 1: just do it. Burt Reynolds didn't. Yeah, he he got

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Speaker 1: the job done. Yeah, thinking what uh, throw like a

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Speaker 1: beer picture in a guy's face and he trips over

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Speaker 1: his friend, and then you make a kind of funny

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Speaker 1: laugh and then you throw him out the front window

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Speaker 1: of the bar and I'll play banjo along, but I'll

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Speaker 1: do the score. And in the end, though, you end

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Speaker 1: up slapping backs with the guy you were in a

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Speaker 1: fight with, and you all just have a good laugh

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Speaker 1: about it. That's how it goes, all right. So let's

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Speaker 1: talk pacifism, man, all right? The the uh the word itself, actually,

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Speaker 1: pacificus is what it is derived from. It's old Latin word.

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Speaker 1: Everybody knows Latin super old. But the use of the

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Speaker 1: word pacifist in the way that we use it today

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Speaker 1: is actually fairly news from I think a peace conference

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Speaker 1: in nineteen o six that it was officially coined. And

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Speaker 1: although that concept, this pacifism that we understand it today, Um,

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Speaker 1: it did kind of spring out of this rational humanist

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Speaker 1: peace movement that came as a result of the um

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Speaker 1: just this transformation of people in the nineteenth century. People

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Speaker 1: have been espousing pacifist police for many, many thousands of years. Now.

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Speaker 1: Sure they just didn't call it that. No, called it

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Speaker 1: being a chill dude. Right, should we get in the

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Speaker 1: old way back machine. Let's man, I was hoping you'd

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Speaker 1: say that. All right, it's fired up, and um, it's

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Speaker 1: quite lovely in here, like the music you picked out,

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Speaker 1: Thank you, it is very nice. Um. I thought you

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Speaker 1: were gonna have on like rage against the Machine or something. No, no,

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Speaker 1: because they're a pacifist, are they don't know? I could

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Speaker 1: see them being pacifists. Actually yeah, well I said it

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Speaker 1: as a joke. Then I was like, well, wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: it rang a bell. I really have to think about that. Yeah. Uh,

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Speaker 1: they strike me as a kind of dude that well,

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Speaker 1: I don't even know. I don't know those guys. You

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Speaker 1: don't know reads against the Machine their musicians, No, but

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Speaker 1: I saw Zack and l A he loved in my neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: It's like to see him getting tacos all the time.

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Speaker 1: We shall fight the power, he said, wrong group. Uh

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Speaker 1: so passivism if you want to talk about the O G,

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Speaker 1: or at least the O G that. I'm sure there

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Speaker 1: were pacifists around, but the one that got notoriety at

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Speaker 1: least first one was probably said Hartha, as you point out,

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Speaker 1: the grand founder of Buddhism, who said, you know what, Uh,

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Speaker 1: this this fighting, this warrior stuff is no good for me.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm gonna break with that tradition and um,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna try and and take the path less traveled. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And he uh, he was a part of the warrior cast, right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So him saying no, I'm not doing this, I'm not

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Speaker 1: fighting was pretty significant, so much so that a religion

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Speaker 1: formed around him, Buddhism. Right, So he's kind of credited

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Speaker 1: as one of the one of the earliest pacifists, at

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Speaker 1: least on record. And um, pretty quickly his his pacifist

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Speaker 1: views spread, and um, there was a king who was

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Speaker 1: Buddhist king in India. His name was Ashoka, great name,

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Speaker 1: by the way, and um, he said, you know what,

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Speaker 1: my kingdom is not going to be involved in any

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Speaker 1: more wars of conquest because I'm a devout Buddhist. Now

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Speaker 1: it's a great way to go. The Greeks followed with

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Speaker 1: their Stoicists. Boy, I could not have said that in

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Speaker 1: the old toothless days. That would presented a lot of

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Speaker 1: problems the Stoicists. They were definitely not down with violence.

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Speaker 1: Of course, Jesus himself was known to be a pretty

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Speaker 1: chill dude. Yeah, he said, turn the other cheek man. Yeah. Famously.

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Speaker 1: In fact, one of his followers, Roman named Maximilian uh

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Speaker 1: Very famously became one of the early Christian martyrs when

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Speaker 1: he said, you know what, I'm not going to serve

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Speaker 1: in your legion. I'm not gonna kill anyone. And they said, fine,

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Speaker 1: we'll kill you. Yeah, he said fine. Which is the

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Speaker 1: irony of all this is, as you'll see you throughout

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Speaker 1: this whole podcast, is all these pacifists over the years,

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Speaker 1: they're like, I don't want to fight, Like, all right, well,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be violent on you and make your life

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Speaker 1: a living hell. You're like, I just don't want to

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Speaker 1: fight you. Guys would fight anyone else. Just leave me alone.

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Speaker 1: I know it's a. I don't know what it is

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Speaker 1: like this this um, Well, it's it's a duty and

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Speaker 1: an obligation. I think that war ists and we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about war is um, which is the other end of

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Speaker 1: the spectrum. I think that's what they feel like. It

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Speaker 1: is like, no, you have a duty to take up

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Speaker 1: arms against an aggressor against you or your countrymen. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: go kill that guy. Somebody of a higher socioeconomic status

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Speaker 1: commanded you. Yeah, pretty much. So moving long, we'll just

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Speaker 1: jump forward to Renaissance Europe. Yes, just much nicer them, Right,

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Speaker 1: there was this um this thanks to the the blossoming

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Speaker 1: of science, there was a this kind of idea that

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Speaker 1: well there was the foundation of humanism, right, that humans

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Speaker 1: should take care of other humans, and part and parcel

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Speaker 1: to that was kind of picking up on the idea

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Speaker 1: of pacifism, and it really started to take root in

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Speaker 1: uh Europe, in the Western world around that time, during

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Speaker 1: during the Renaissance, thanks in part um to a guy

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Speaker 1: named Erasmus, that's writer who famously said building a city

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Speaker 1: is much better than destroying one. He probably dropped the

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Speaker 1: mic and was like argue with that right there, Like

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Speaker 1: Mike's haven't even been invented yet. Uh. And then, of course,

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Speaker 1: if we jump ahead a little bit more to the

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Speaker 1: early days of what would become the United States. Uh,

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Speaker 1: there were people here called Mennonites and Quakers who came

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Speaker 1: to colonial America too, so they could just sort of

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Speaker 1: be among themselves and beat chill dudes. Then the Revolutionary

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Speaker 1: War broke out and they're like, ah, what do we

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Speaker 1: do now? Yeah, we came here to beat chill dudes,

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Speaker 1: and now everyone expects us to fight for our freedoms. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And actually Pennsylvania was this. I was watching this short

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Speaker 1: video about pacifism yesterday, I think, and they were talking

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Speaker 1: about Pennsylvania and how like it was the first colony

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Speaker 1: to to um outlaw slavery, and um, there was just

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Speaker 1: a lot because of the influence of the Quakers and

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Speaker 1: the Mennonites, there was a lot of um, well just

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Speaker 1: kind of pacifist ideals. Yeah, and they it thrived, like

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Speaker 1: Philadelphia was the most important city in the colonies at

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Speaker 1: the time. It was in Pennsylvania. Um. But yeah, when

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Speaker 1: the when the Revolutionary War broke out, it was it

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Speaker 1: was tough to be a Quaker pacifist because, um, everybody

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Speaker 1: else is saying Hey, does that mean you're loyal to

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Speaker 1: the king, because if so, we're gonna beat you up.

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Speaker 1: And then the Tories would say, hey, you have to

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Speaker 1: come fight with us. You're obviously loyal to the king.

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Speaker 1: You're not fighting with the uh, the rebels, So come

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Speaker 1: fight with us, and they'd say no. So they were

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Speaker 1: caught between this rock and the hard place, where both

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Speaker 1: sides just treated the friends very um badly. Yeah. In

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Speaker 1: seventeen seven seven one seven seven seven uh, seventeen breakers. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: in seventeen seventy seven, seventeen Quaker leaders were accused of

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Speaker 1: treason and they were exiled to Virginia by the Whigs,

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Speaker 1: and I guess they got there were like, Virginia is

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Speaker 1: not so bad, right, not much of a punishment, but

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Speaker 1: they wanted to be home in Pennsylvania. Oh, tobacco, you

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Speaker 1: can smoke probafully so uh. And then if you know,

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Speaker 1: like you said, if you're a Quaker who stuck to

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Speaker 1: your pacifist ideals, um, you could have been abused or

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Speaker 1: you could have had your property confiscated. It was not good.

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Speaker 1: And apparently they were so committed that when the war

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Speaker 1: broke out, when the revolution broke out, um, they the

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Speaker 1: Quakers who were running the government all quit. They all resigned,

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Speaker 1: and so we can't we can't have anything to do

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Speaker 1: with this. So we're gonna go make oatmeal and fine

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Speaker 1: furnitures exactly. Uh. The Napoleonic Wars in the eighteen hundreds

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Speaker 1: was a very bloody affair. They were a very bloody affair.

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Speaker 1: And so this gave rise to a lot of people saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: like the London Peace Society, maybe maybe we should try

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Speaker 1: and think of a different way to go about resolving

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Speaker 1: our conflicts rather than just like trying to kill more

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Speaker 1: people than the other guys. Yeah. Apparently the War of

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Speaker 1: eighteen twelve was extremely unpopular in the United States, and um,

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Speaker 1: that combined with the Napoleonic Wars uh in Europe, just

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Speaker 1: kind of allowed this mentality to really blossom and on

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Speaker 1: the continent and in the in the States where this

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Speaker 1: this peace movement kind of developed over the nineteenth century

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Speaker 1: and um, things were going dotty. Well, actually it was

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Speaker 1: getting a lot of attraction. People are starting to think like, hey,

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Speaker 1: maybe we can go without war and maybe we can

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Speaker 1: just be peaceful. And then the Civil War happened. They

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Speaker 1: ran headlong into this problem, right, because there there's this

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Speaker 1: immediate problem that was facing the pacifists. There was great,

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Speaker 1: you guys are doing a heck of a job keeping

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Speaker 1: the peace. But part of that piece is there's a

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Speaker 1: group of people over here who are enslaved, living in horrific,

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Speaker 1: brutal conditions, being forced into labor against their will. Um,

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Speaker 1: so what do you say about that? How does that

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Speaker 1: is that peace? Okay? And the path was still grappled

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Speaker 1: with that one today. Yeah. There was a writer name

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Speaker 1: Angelina grim Key well the political activists and very much

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Speaker 1: into peace as an advocate, and she said, oh, yes,

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Speaker 1: war is better than slavery. So I think there were

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Speaker 1: quite a few pacifists that probably said, you know what,

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Speaker 1: sometimes you just have to take up arms and do

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Speaker 1: what's right, right, you know, Yeah, I mean, and it

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Speaker 1: created a big division in the pacifist movements. Um, that

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Speaker 1: American Civil War. Um. And like I said, people are

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Speaker 1: still grappling with it today. But before they could, before

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Speaker 1: the whole thing could sink in, um, pacivism, I think

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Speaker 1: kind of uh, it congealed again because it seems like

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Speaker 1: when World War One finally came, pacivism was was back.

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Speaker 1: It was a thing still hadn't just been blown away

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Speaker 1: by uh Napoleon or um the city of the American

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Speaker 1: Civil War. You know, should we take a break. Let's

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Speaker 1: all right, let's take a break and we'll come back

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Speaker 1: and talk a little bit more about the opposite of pescivism.

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Speaker 1: All right. So you put this thing together and you

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Speaker 1: did a bang up job. This is no this I

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Speaker 1: expanded on a Patrick Kaiger joint. Oh was this from

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Speaker 1: our original article? Oh? Well, at any rate, you and

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Speaker 1: Patrick did a great job. But you guys make a

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Speaker 1: great point that if you want to understand pacifism, you

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Speaker 1: have to understand war. And uh there was this pacifist

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Speaker 1: name and a writer named Arthur Ponson b Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: was a member of parliament, Okay, and he has this

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Speaker 1: great quote from one of his writings about war. War

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Speaker 1: is a monster born of hypocrisy, fed on falsehood, fattened

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Speaker 1: on humbug that really dates it, kept alive by superstition,

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Speaker 1: directed to the death and torture of millions, succeeded in

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Speaker 1: no high purpose, degrading to humanity, endangering civilization, and bringing

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Speaker 1: forth in its travail, hideous brood of strife, conflict in

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Speaker 1: war more war. Pretty down view on war yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I think most people, probably even professional soldiers, would agree

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Speaker 1: with posombes Um assessment. Right, there's no there, there's basically

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Speaker 1: no one out there who's like, no word's good, Ward's great,

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Speaker 1: Let's go to war, right now, Go find somebody to

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Speaker 1: go to war with. People don't think like that, right, Generally,

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Speaker 1: that's not the that's not the mentality. Even even that's

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Speaker 1: not the basis of war is and warism is the

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Speaker 1: idea that um war can be morally justified and there's

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Speaker 1: even some circumstances that could require it. Right. And if

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Speaker 1: you go back to the early Christian Church, the earliest

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Speaker 1: version of it, um there was basically nothing but non

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Speaker 1: violent pacifism. And then the Church started to join forces

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Speaker 1: with the state, the government uh specifically at first and

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Speaker 1: the guys of the Holy Roman Empire, and the Holy

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Speaker 1: Roman Empire was all about conquest, getting new land, subduing people,

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Speaker 1: and so one of the tasks that fell the theologians,

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Speaker 1: Christian theologians was to figure out a way to justify that,

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Speaker 1: and starting with I believe St. Augustine, they came up

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Speaker 1: with this concept called the just war, and the just

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Speaker 1: war basically says it effectively canceled out the possibility of

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Speaker 1: absolute pascivism, where absolute pacivism is just war and violence

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Speaker 1: are never justified under any circumstances. This was there is

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Speaker 1: such a thing as um a war that is that

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Speaker 1: can be conducted in a certain way, that can be

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Speaker 1: entered into for all the right reasons. And if all

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Speaker 1: these conditions are met, then you have a just war.

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Speaker 1: And technically you're not really breaking any any Christian ideals

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Speaker 1: or morals. Still morally uh, justifiable. And those are the

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Speaker 1: two the two big questions that you just said are uh,

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Speaker 1: simply when is it justified? And once you have justified it,

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Speaker 1: how how do you go about it? Um? And in

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Speaker 1: the in regards to the first one, there are six conditions,

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Speaker 1: and we should point out that in order for it

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Speaker 1: to be a just war, you have to meet all

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Speaker 1: these conditions. Yeah, not some. Yeah it's not like the

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Speaker 1: first couple, but never mind, we got most of two

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Speaker 1: through six. The war must be made on behalf of

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Speaker 1: a just cause is number one. The decision to go

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Speaker 1: to war must be made by proper authorities. It can't

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Speaker 1: be some jackass, right uh. Participants must have a good

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Speaker 1: intention um, rather than revenge or greed that's a big one. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it takes care of a few wars. What do you mean,

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Speaker 1: just like canceled smell must be likely that peace will emerge.

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Speaker 1: That like should be the ultimate goal. Um, not award

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Speaker 1: that would lead to another war. And that's that mentality

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about, Like when people who even warlike people

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Speaker 1: will say, well, it's the that the goal is peace.

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Speaker 1: You just have to do it through violence, which is

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Speaker 1: tough to wrap your head around, especially if you're going

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Speaker 1: to war is a last resort. That's a big one.

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Speaker 1: These are all big And then finally, the total amount

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Speaker 1: of evil. It's like a formula. The total amount of

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Speaker 1: evil resulting from the war is outweighed by the good

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Speaker 1: that will come out of the war. Right, So you

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Speaker 1: have to fulfill all six of those before entering the war,

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Speaker 1: right right. And then once you're in the war, you

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Speaker 1: have to say, okay, um, what parameters do we have

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Speaker 1: to work within for it to remain a just war?

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Speaker 1: And we actually did an episode yeah the Rules of

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Speaker 1: War up. So it was pretty good if I remember correctly.

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Speaker 1: We recorded that in serious studios in DC. Remember that

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Speaker 1: that was weird. It's just to show how great we

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Speaker 1: are or were they trying to pilot us or something?

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Speaker 1: I think so, Man, you remember those days hardly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a long time ago. Um, but yeah, we did

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Speaker 1: do that one in serious as studios and in d C.

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Speaker 1: I think that's weird. Um. But when you're within award

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Speaker 1: to maintain it being justifiable, you basically have to, um,

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Speaker 1: you have to say, you have to be discriminate and

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Speaker 1: the stuff you're doing has to be proportional. Right. So

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Speaker 1: with the proportional thing, like if somebody is shooting at

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Speaker 1: you with a machine gun and you fire a missile

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Speaker 1: at that person, if that's the way you're conducting the war,

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Speaker 1: you're you're not really carrying out a just war. But

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Speaker 1: dudes are into war like no, no, no, that's exactly

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Speaker 1: what you should do. Yeah, and um, and then uh,

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Speaker 1: discrimination is a big one, and that's the one that

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Speaker 1: we seem to be having increasing trouble with as the

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Speaker 1: century goes on, or as the last century went on.

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Speaker 1: That collateral damage where you have to discriminate between okay

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Speaker 1: targets and not okay targets. Okay targets are other soldiers,

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Speaker 1: other members of the military, or people who are enabling

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Speaker 1: the the other side. To be to carry out war.

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Speaker 1: Like even workers in a factory making missiles, they're they're

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Speaker 1: a justifiable target in a just war, but the people

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Speaker 1: who live around the factory they're not. So if you're

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Speaker 1: gonna drop a bomb on that factory, that bomb has

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Speaker 1: to hit and if you if it misses and you

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Speaker 1: kill those people, well then you're not carrying out a

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Speaker 1: just war. Supposedly, there's been a lot of bending over

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Speaker 1: backwards and say no, no, there's spillage, there's collateral damage.

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Speaker 1: You're some civilians who aren't intended to be targets are

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Speaker 1: going to die in a war, but you want to

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Speaker 1: limit those people. And the key here is to is

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Speaker 1: to not specifically target civilians. And you're, okay, that's a

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Speaker 1: that's a lot of bending over that's been done as

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Speaker 1: war has gotten less and less discriminate over the twentie century. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's um, I mean, it's kind of ironic that

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Speaker 1: we're far more precise than we ever have been in

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Speaker 1: terms of targeting. But I think that just the sheer

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Speaker 1: size of the armaments, Um, you can't help but have

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Speaker 1: collateral damage. I saw um a a UNICEF article that

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Speaker 1: said that at the beginning of the twentieth century, UM,

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Speaker 1: collateral damage, civilian deaths represented about five percent of casualties

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Speaker 1: in war. Yeah, used to mainly beat soldiers who died.

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Speaker 1: By the n nineties, it was up to of the

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Speaker 1: casualties in a war were civilian targets or civilian people

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Speaker 1: who who like, that's beyond collateral damage. Yeah, And I

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Speaker 1: think part of the problem, and boy, I'm just speaking

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Speaker 1: off the top of my head here, let me preface that.

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Speaker 1: But part of the problem there is the kind of

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Speaker 1: wars we fight these days. You'll drop a bomb on

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Speaker 1: a on a house where they are like five suspected

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Speaker 1: terrorists in a neighborhood of you know, two thousand people,

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Speaker 1: so that that probably has a lot to do with

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Speaker 1: the and I'm just guessing here, but it should have

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Speaker 1: a lot to do with the casualty rate of civilians.

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Speaker 1: Is not like, you know, there are three thousand troops

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Speaker 1: in that house. It's just not how it works these stays. No,

422
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 1: it's not. You know, there's these small, tiny little groups, right,

423
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: And I think specifically also from what I understand I'm

424
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: speaking of the top of my head as well. From

425
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 1: what I understand, um, the modern battlefield takes place much

426
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: more and more populated areas, whereas before there used to

427
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: be things that essentially resemble pitch battles. Yeah, let's go

428
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 1: meet in this field and get out. You wear this

429
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 1: color coat, We'll wear this colored coat, and then we'll

430
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 1: shoot at each other. Right. But yeah, as it's started

431
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 1: to move more and more into urban areas, and of

432
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 1: course more and more civilians are going to die. Right.

433
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,360
Speaker 1: But I think part of the other thing that really

434
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,360
Speaker 1: started to drive up those numbers, Chuck were and it's

435
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: stuff that you don't learn about in school in history class,

436
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: were the bombing campaigns that were carried out on both sides.

437
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: But the allies to the British and the US carried

438
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 1: out bombing campaigns where we were just leveling civilians, just

439
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 1: whole cities. We were just leveling with bombs, like fire bombs,

440
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: like we fire bombed Japan in World War Two. The

441
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 1: British fire bombed German city centers in World War Two,

442
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 1: like like that was part of the strategy, was just

443
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 1: killing so many people that we were trying to force

444
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 1: them into unconditional surrender. It wasn't like nowadays where they're

445
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 1: like have a geo coordinated target and it looks like

446
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: a video game. It was like you've seen the old footage.

447
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 1: It's like, well, we're over the city, start shoving bombs

448
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 1: out the door, bombs away. Yeah. Yeah, So I think

449
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: that drove up the numbers and really drove it from

450
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 1: five percent at the beginning of the century to And

451
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 1: you know, I'd love to hear from people that know

452
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: a lot more about this on these couple of points

453
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 1: that we just yeah, both both side guess that you

454
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: know UM, but the the that the idea that the

455
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 1: war used to take place basically outside of of UM

456
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 1: populated areas, away from targets that should be discriminated against UM.

457
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: Some people say maybe those wars were acceptable, but the

458
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 1: type of war that we're fighting now has evolved so

459
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 1: far away from that that that war is no longer acceptable.

460
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: You can't justify it any longer. And there's actually a

461
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 1: name for that type of pacifism specifically UM that I

462
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 1: believe is a selective past no technological pacifism. Yeah, and uh,

463
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 1: I want to quickly say that I think that's part

464
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 1: of the idea of terrorism and the cowardism of terrorism

465
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 1: is like, hey, let's go set up shop next to

466
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 1: this nursing home, you know, is they don't want to

467
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: be out in the open in the middle of the day,

468
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 1: sert as an easy target, right. Yeah, So you mentioned

469
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 1: that one of the types of pacivism I counted here

470
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 1: and including the subgroups, I think they're about seven. Uh.

471
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 1: And and you should think about passivism as a as

472
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 1: a spectrum from absolute pacifism on one end, which is

473
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 1: like nothing ever never no violence, no violence, no violence,

474
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,120
Speaker 1: no matter what, like not even I'd rather die a

475
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: morally just death than even defend myself or your loved one, yeah, anybody.

476
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: There's like no justification for violence ever. That's absolute. So

477
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 1: that's on one far far end. Um. So then next

478
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: we have conditional pacifism, and that's basically when you're like,

479
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm I'm opposed to violence in this

480
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: particular situation. I don't think it's the right solution to

481
00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: this problem. Yeah, conditional pacivism, it's kind of like the

482
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: some umbrella that really falls basically between absolute pascifism and

483
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: everything else. It covers everything else. It's basically there's like

484
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: there's some time when violence is is usable, right, and

485
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: then there's a bunch of subgroups under that that conditional

486
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: pacifism umbrella. UM for example, pragmatic pacifism. Right, So, pragmatic

487
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: pacifism basically is a type of conditional pascifism where you're saying,

488
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: I don't really have any problem with using violence, but

489
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: in this particular circumstance, it's gonna make things worse. It's

490
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: not going to solve the problem at hand. I'm a pragmatist.

491
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to me, Um, And the example

492
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: that this article gave us, um that the slavery, the

493
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: war over slavery, like can can ending slavery justify a war?

494
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: And a pragmatist may say, yeah, totally, we really should,

495
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 1: because that's what it's gonna take to end slavery, and

496
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: slavery is so bad that it's worth the lives that

497
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: are going to be lost to end slavery. Ultimately, this,

498
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: the good that comes out of it, is better than

499
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: the evil of the war. But the pragmatic pacifist could

500
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: also say, on the other hand, no, we really shouldn't

501
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: start a war here because it's just going to cause

502
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: the slaveholders to kill all their slaves out of spite.

503
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: So like that's the two examples of of pragmatic pacifism. Yeah,

504
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: and under that even as another subgroup fallibility pacifism. Um,

505
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: you know how we talked about meeting those conditions of

506
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: a just war. This is the kind of pacifist I am.

507
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: So fallibility pacifism is like, yeah, sure, you could be

508
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: down with that, but there's so much you don't know,

509
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: and the scale of war is so massive that you

510
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 1: can't you don't even have the information you need to

511
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: decide whether or not it's a just war as a citizen.

512
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: There's so many factors involved in in a war and

513
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: going to war, so many things you're told or not told.

514
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: There's so many ways you're manipulated through the media. Um,

515
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: there's so many personal vendetta's possibly involved, money, oil contracts.

516
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: Who knows that Because of the scale of of it

517
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: and all of the factors, we can't possibly know even

518
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: enough of the details, let alone all the details to say, yes,

519
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: this is a just war, let's go to war. That's right,

520
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: that's fallibility passive. Uh. Collectivist pascivism is um that Uh,

521
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 1: maybe you might think that executing this uh person who

522
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: murdered and uh sexually assaulted children is okay, Like not

523
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 1: into violence. But this guy should not be walking around

524
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: in the earth anymore. He needs to be wiped out. Um.

525
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: But maybe, um, the sheer magnitude of a war, you

526
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,479
Speaker 1: might still be against. Yeah, for sure you should call

527
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: that pick and choose pacivism. Well, but I mean that's

528
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 1: a part of conditional pacifism, you know, it's saying, yeah,

529
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 1: it's okay, and violence is okay in this sense, but

530
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: not in this sense to me. And that's the thing.

531
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: Like pacifists are called on to justify their beliefs a

532
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: lot or else be thrown in prison or just be

533
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: treated horribly. But the thing about passivism is it is

534
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: about as personal belief as one can come upon. Yeah,

535
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: and people may ask you to justify it, but there's

536
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: no you have no burden to justify your own personal pacifism. Yeah,

537
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 1: it's it just is it exists in you in that sense, um,

538
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 1: and it's personal to you. It's it's an interesting thing.

539
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: Like a collective pacifists might be against the death penalty

540
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: even but they might have children, and if someone murders children,

541
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: that might even sway them to say, you know what,

542
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: I don't even believe in this, but I believe this

543
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: person poked their card as a human when they did that. Right,

544
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: that that's the that's the way that they would put

545
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: it that they basically they had at one point had

546
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: a right to be free from violence inflicted upon them,

547
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: but what they did was so bad that it erased that. Right. Yeah,

548
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: I'm kind of in that camp because I'm not I've

549
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: never been a staunch advocate for the death penalty at all,

550
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: but they're just some things. It's like, it's not like

551
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: you can get the death penalty for any old thing.

552
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: There's some things like just don't do that the worst thing.

553
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: Don't do the worst thing, and you can still live

554
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: and maybe be rehabilitated. And but when you have people

555
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 1: like uh, you know, clearly sick serial killers and like

556
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: the Jeffrey Dahmers of the world, what good does it

557
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: do unless you're just literally studying their brain to keep

558
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: them around them alive. I don't know, man, It's a

559
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: very I had a lot of moral tug of war,

560
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: big moral tug of war going on when it comes

561
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: and stuff like well, I mean that's the yeah, and

562
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: not just to people have been trying to wrestle with

563
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: this thousands of years now, you know, I mean, like

564
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 1: not a simple black and white thing. No, it really isn't.

565
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess unless you're touched by the pacifist

566
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 1: bug and you just you just know, you just know

567
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 1: how you feel about it. A smoked a dubie maybe maybe,

568
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 1: or you know, I saw somebody shot in front of

569
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: you or whatever. I think like personal experience definitely leads

570
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: to epiphanies regarding pacivism for sure. That's my new favorite

571
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: euphanism for smoking marijuanas Doobie. No. Touched by the passive spot.

572
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: I think we could make that a thing, probably get

573
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,879
Speaker 1: that spread that around. We just put a T shirt,

574
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 1: sell it on our spreadshirt store. I mean we made

575
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 1: uh sniff him off the case the true saying, well

576
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 1: not really, Mike's on pants off. Yeah, Clark me something, Yeah,

577
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: Clark mean something. And those are all just dumb. Yeah,

578
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 1: they're terrible. Touched by the passive a bug. That's for real.

579
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 1: That should be an album title. It's gonna be uh,

580
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: who is it? Um soup Dragons no diarrhea Planet. They'll

581
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: be the name of their album. Those guys are gonna

582
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: be like, why are you obsessed with? Stop? Please pretend

583
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:23,359
Speaker 1: we don't exist and then finally selective I'm sorry, not finally. Well,

584
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: we've sort of talked about technological pacivism, but um, I

585
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 1: guess Penultimately, selective pacivism is when you oppose certain kinds

586
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: of violence, like and nuclear pacifism was a big kind

587
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 1: of This was like, hey, I'll even support a war,

588
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 1: but man, nuclear war, forget about it. Which these technological wars.

589
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 1: A lot of people say that's as bad as nuclear war. Yes,

590
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 1: some people do, but if you're a nuclear pacifist, you

591
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: may be one of those people who say, no, as

592
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: long as you're not using nukes and the war is

593
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,359
Speaker 1: just war, I'm fine with it. But there's no way

594
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: you can justify a nuclear war because it's just too indiscriminate.

595
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: It's just too It kills too many people who are

596
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,919
Speaker 1: who couldn't possibly be legitimate targets. So you could never

597
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 1: justify a nuclear war. So that's why nuclear pacifism has

598
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: its own thing. There's also other ones to like ecological pacifism.

599
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 1: People are like, no war destroys the planet. There's um,

600
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 1: there's a lot of different reasons people have pacifist beliefs.

601
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,839
Speaker 1: Some people too. Also, Chuck will Will say, I'm a pacifist,

602
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: and um, my country is going to war, so I'm

603
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,760
Speaker 1: not I'm not doing anything. I'm not going to register

604
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 1: for the draft. I'm not going to drive an ambulance.

605
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do anything. Other people will say.

606
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: I will go to war for my country, but I'm

607
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: not going to carry a gun or kill anybody else.

608
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,320
Speaker 1: We'll drive an ambulance. Or the new Mel Gibson movie

609
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: The hacks All Ridge was a guy who was a

610
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: pacifist who rescued a bunch of people, never fired a bullet.

611
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: I wonder if it was one of those guys on

612
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 1: that Cracked list, but it was totally Yeah, mel Gibson

613
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 1: himself as a famous pacifist. Oh the way, that's not

614
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:14,720
Speaker 1: the word, uh, lover of pornographic violence. And then there's

615
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 1: so chuck. There's one other thing we have to say

616
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 1: about pacifists or what makes a pacifist. There is anti

617
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:25,320
Speaker 1: violence is a huge part of pacifism, right, but also

618
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,760
Speaker 1: there's this thing called positive peace too, which is okay.

619
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 1: Not only you can't just sit there and be like

620
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: no no war, no war, like like come up with

621
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: an alternative, and pacifists say, oh yes, we have tons

622
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: of alternatives. There's things like um diplomacy is a big one,

623
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,359
Speaker 1: like the entire existence of the State Department represents the

624
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: idea of pacifism by the US government UM and even

625
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 1: on a very local level. Pacifists believe that the more

626
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: groups understand one another and the more they can possibly

627
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: share in common, the less likely they are to UM

628
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: engage in violence to resolve their differences. And so the

629
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:13,280
Speaker 1: the example, the idea of getting groups together to share

630
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: stuff or to understand one another, or to see that

631
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,320
Speaker 1: their difference is actually enrich human experience rather than um

632
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:25,879
Speaker 1: threaten those people's stability, is the promotion of positive peace.

633
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 1: So that promoting positive peace and being against violence, or

634
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: basically the two halves of what the pacifist whole. Yeah,

635
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 1: really interesting? Yeah, did you take it right? Sure? All right,

636
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 1: we'll come back and talk a little bit about a

637
00:38:39,360 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: little bit more about conscientious objection after this. All right,

638
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:09,240
Speaker 1: you know what I want to amend my statements from earlier,

639
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,439
Speaker 1: the death penalty. Okay, well not amend Well maybe amen,

640
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 1: I just uh, it's tricky to throw that stuff out

641
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 1: there in the public. UM. I think my deal is

642
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: I don't care what you have done. Even if I

643
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 1: think you might have revoked your card, there's still a

644
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:31,879
Speaker 1: compassion inside me for that person that's done the worst thing.

645
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 1: That's really fascinating because because I think that a either

646
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: what happened to them to make them like that or

647
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 1: to lead them down that road. Man, my hat is

648
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 1: off to you. Man, Well, you don't just turn out

649
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: that way by accident. You even either I believe have

650
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: something scientifically biologically wrong, biologically wrong with your brain or yeah,

651
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 1: tough default people in that situation, or you have offered

652
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 1: so much at someone else's hand as a child that

653
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 1: you have become a monster yourself. And you know, I

654
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 1: still might say that. I just I'm not one of

655
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 1: those people that would go out at a at a

656
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 1: execution and like party outside with It's just not I

657
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:24,720
Speaker 1: still have compassion for that person deep down. Wow, that's

658
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 1: that's impressive. No, I don't think so. Like I would

659
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 1: never be one of those people who celebrated someone's death

660
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 1: ever under any circumstances. Um But I like those people

661
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: that that you can feel compassion for. I like I

662
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 1: people can do something that that turns off that switching

663
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,800
Speaker 1: me and it's replaced by by just vengeance. Like, nope,

664
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 1: you're done. No, I hear you. I think for me,

665
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: if you look at uh, if you just picked someone

666
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,320
Speaker 1: on death row, looked at their crime, and then looked

667
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:03,240
Speaker 1: at their history and childhood, there's probably there were probably

668
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 1: victims of some serious abuse. Yeah. And I also want

669
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: to say, I would guess that I would not feel

670
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 1: vengeance towards almost anyone who's on death row right now, like, like,

671
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 1: for for that vengeance switch to be flipped, you have

672
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: to have done something like objectively evil, as evil as

673
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,439
Speaker 1: it gets, you know, like um, and I'm sure there's

674
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,319
Speaker 1: plenty of people on death row who would flip that

675
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: switch for me, but just them being on death row,

676
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 1: I don't automatically say, oh, well, you know you should

677
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: you deserve to die. I like it. I'm a little

678
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,879
Speaker 1: a little more selective than that. But when you hear

679
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: about somebody who who is like, ah, like you use

680
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 1: child rapist slash murderer, it's an excellent example somebody who

681
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 1: I like, even if they are redeemable. Is there a

682
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 1: point that you get to where it's like, like you,

683
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: you gave up the right for us to exert any

684
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 1: effort or of you any any leeway any longer um

685
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 1: and like, what you did you should be punished for,

686
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: not the door should be left open for redemption. You

687
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 1: should be punished by having your life ended. I struggle

688
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 1: with this a lot, Like this isn't an absolute thing

689
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 1: in me at all, Like I don't see any of

690
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 1: this is black and white. But I have encountered crimes

691
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: before we hear about it, and and I've just been like, yeah,

692
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 1: the person should die for that, and it's a it's

693
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 1: a terrible feeling, Like it's not a good feeling at all. Again,

694
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: I would never celebrate that person's death, but it's something

695
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,879
Speaker 1: to to struggle with. I think people should struggle with it. Yeah,

696
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, I guess so. I mean, my wife

697
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 1: is one of the most compassionate, kind hearted people I know,

698
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: one of the best people I know. And she reads

699
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 1: a story about someone doing something animals and she goes

700
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: she goes cold. She's like, put me in a room

701
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 1: with that person in a chair and give me a

702
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 1: baseball bat. That's another good example. And she's like the

703
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: least violent person you could imagine. And uh, when it

704
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 1: comes to like animal torture and stuff, she's like, oh, man,

705
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 1: I wish I could just take care of that anyway. Boy,

706
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 1: who knew that we'd have like a deep conversation during

707
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 1: the pacifism Well, we need to be we need to

708
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,240
Speaker 1: step out and get touched by the pacifist lug. So.

709
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:24,280
Speaker 1: One of the one of the reasons pacifists are largely

710
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: famous is usually in reference to resisting a war. Right.

711
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 1: World War one was a big one. Um in in

712
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: uh and actually starting in the Colonial War, those Quakers,

713
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 1: by the way, could have paid somebody to go serve

714
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 1: in their stead and all the everyone in charge of

715
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 1: the colonial militias. And I think you could do this

716
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 1: in the Civil War too. Um. They were fine with that.

717
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 1: It was fine, like here you go go pay somebody

718
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 1: and the person makes some money and if they survived, great, Um,

719
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: but you're considered having served by finding a replacement. Quakers

720
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 1: are like, no, that that doesn't count. But World War

721
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 1: one was when conscientious objectors really started to become part

722
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 1: of the cultural landscape. Yeah, which kind of surprised me.

723
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:14,359
Speaker 1: I was surprised that way back in nineteen seventeen, there

724
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 1: were twenty one men young men who sought to get

725
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: exemption from the war in the draft that I don't know,

726
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 1: it's just way more than I thought. You get the

727
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 1: idea back then like everybody was always behind the war

728
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 1: effort and that just wasn't the case. Yeah, And that

729
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,400
Speaker 1: was in the US alone. Great Britain had another sixteen

730
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:38,840
Speaker 1: thousand UM conscientious objectors, and in both countries the groups

731
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 1: were treated horribly, very badly. And um, in Great Britain

732
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 1: there was a kind of a grassroots campaign that was

733
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 1: started I think by one of the military officials in

734
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 1: Great Britain where um, women who saw a man on

735
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 1: the street during the war who wasn't in a uniform

736
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 1: would be give in a white feather, and a white

737
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:06,320
Speaker 1: feather was a symbol of cowardice campaign. Yeah, and it worked.

738
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 1: A lot of people went and joined up after getting

739
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 1: a white feather and then went and died on the battlefield.

740
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,240
Speaker 1: But hey, at least they proved they weren't a coward.

741
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 1: UM surprised they went through all the trouble of being

742
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 1: a conscious objector. Like I got out of the war

743
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 1: and they're like, oh, I got that feather. That feather

744
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 1: did it? I guess I'm going But it actually did

745
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: do it. And one of the reasons why there was

746
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: such a campaign is because this was during the time

747
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:34,399
Speaker 1: when UM countries, including the US, had universal conscription for men,

748
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,919
Speaker 1: which was if you were a man between this age

749
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,320
Speaker 1: and this age, uh, and you're able bodied, uh, you're

750
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 1: you're you're in the military, You're being drafted to war

751
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,320
Speaker 1: during World War One. So the idea that these people

752
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 1: had brothers and cousins and uncles and husbands and fathers

753
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:55,879
Speaker 1: who were going off to war to fight and possibly die.

754
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:58,760
Speaker 1: And these guys were walking around saying, I don't believe

755
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 1: in war. That was their side. The other side was

756
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,280
Speaker 1: they didn't believe in more, they didn't believe in violence.

757
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 1: And the ones who really stuck to their guns, um

758
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 1: were Uh they suffered for it for sure. Yes, should

759
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:14,359
Speaker 1: we tell a couple of these stories. There were these

760
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 1: dudes the Richmond sixteen I thought it was just one

761
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 1: guy's name, confusing seventeen seventy seven, seventeen quickers. Uh. They

762
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: were a group of conscientious objectors and they were sent

763
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 1: to Richmond Castle, which was not the place you want

764
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 1: to go. It was an NCC base and uh they

765
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: were sent to war camps in May nineteen sixteen UM

766
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: and court martialed, basically sentenced to death by firing squad

767
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 1: and then Prime Minister asked with stepped in and said,

768
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:49,839
Speaker 1: now let's not kill him. The sentence some two ten

769
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:53,280
Speaker 1: years hard labor breaking up rocks in a Scottish quarry,

770
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 1: and um, one of them died of pneumonia. They were

771
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 1: all pretty upset when they found out they were busted

772
00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 1: up this rock to make military roads. Yeah, because remember

773
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: still part of the war effort. Yes, they were like, no,

774
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 1: we're not helping you with your war, but even breaking

775
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 1: up rocks and the gravel to be used for roads

776
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 1: for the military, that was a big one. That was

777
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: a big deal to them. Yeah. And I don't think

778
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 1: any of the sixteen came out of it, okay, No,

779
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 1: I'm I'm sure there was death in suicide and malnutrition, depression. Yeah, yeah,

780
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 1: none of them came out of that, Okay. Over in

781
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:32,399
Speaker 1: the States there was a guy named Evan Thomas who apparently,

782
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: um it was not the only person who was treated

783
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 1: like this. He um he was a conscious conscientious objector

784
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:42,720
Speaker 1: who was thrown in jail because he wouldn't do anything

785
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 1: for the war effort. And um he went on a

786
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:50,439
Speaker 1: hunger strike and refused to eat, and so the prosecutor

787
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 1: who I guess an army prosecutor, tried to get the

788
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 1: government to just go ahead and execute him as a shot,

789
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 1: as a show of strength, and the government said, yeah,

790
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 1: you know what, We'll just give him twenty five years

791
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 1: hard labor instead. He was freed on a technicality actually

792
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 1: sooner than that. But he was Um, it wasn't him,

793
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. There was another guy in England who uh

794
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 1: was still working after the war was over, after World

795
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 1: War One was over. He was still being put through

796
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:25,400
Speaker 1: hard labor himself after the war for being a conscientious objector,

797
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 1: which is just vile, you know, at the very least

798
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 1: once the war is over, just let him go. He

799
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 1: actually died during hard labor. He was on a diet

800
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 1: of a slice of bread of day. His name was

801
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: Ernest England of England. Ye, pretty on the notes. The

802
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 1: word got out about these horrific stories though, and how

803
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 1: these people were treated, and um, there was a little

804
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 1: bit of public sentiment that moved in the other direction

805
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: of respect and said that you know what this that

806
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 1: actually takes a lot of courage to object to something

807
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 1: and to stick to those values in the face of

808
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:03,879
Speaker 1: all this brutality that they're going to face. It's really

809
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 1: interesting to go to prison and live on when when

810
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 1: slice of bread to day die from hard labor and

811
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 1: not just be like, okay, final drive an ambulance. It

812
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 1: takes a lot of courage. And so as a result

813
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 1: of that, by the time World War two rolled around,

814
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 1: the consciences of objectors in that war were treated much better,

815
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 1: much much better. They were treated almost respectfully. Really, some

816
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 1: were still thrown in prison. If you wouldn't do anything

817
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 1: the uh, you would go to prison. But the US government,

818
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 1: in particular UM came up with a Selective Service and

819
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:42,720
Speaker 1: Training Act of nineteen forty. Part of that said, okay,

820
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 1: you can drive an ambulance, you can be a medic,

821
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 1: you can have a non combat role in the military,

822
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 1: or yeah, that was one. Or you could just go

823
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,800
Speaker 1: work for the Civilian Conservation Corps where you're just doing

824
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:03,280
Speaker 1: infrastructure stuff within the country that's really not directly helping

825
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 1: the war effort at all. Or yeah, you can be

826
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 1: a laborate yeah. And there were there were dudes that

827
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 1: did that and said, oh that's great. You know, I'll

828
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 1: be a human guinea pig that beats going to war.

829
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 1: And they said, all right, get in that room, we're

830
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 1: gonna spray it down with D D T, or we're

831
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 1: gonna inject you with a hepatitis virus or um make

832
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 1: you going to starve yourself for a year. Basically, Yeah,

833
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 1: the Minnesota Start University of Minnesota's starvation experiment. Yeah, so

834
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 1: how's that. We all went, Oh, maybe this isn't so

835
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 1: good either. They're like, do we get to eat if

836
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 1: we're lice infested? And they said yep. Actually, there's a

837
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 1: quote from one guy who was a CEO. His name

838
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 1: was Neil Hartman. He said, I was young, and I

839
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: wanted to show that I was not a coward, which

840
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:53,239
Speaker 1: is why he signed up for medical experimentation. You know. Well,

841
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 1: the Korean War um kind of had a similar you know,

842
00:50:57,840 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: things were just kind of going along in a similar

843
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 1: fashion in as far as being offered alternative jobs, um

844
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 1: of construction or farm work. And it was really the

845
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 1: Vietnam War where things changed. Um, it became a lot

846
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 1: harder to get that CEO status because the law changed

847
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 1: and said basically, you the only reason you can be

848
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:20,319
Speaker 1: a CEO is if you have a religious reason and

849
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:25,280
Speaker 1: you're religiously opposed for a religious basis to all wars.

850
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 1: It can't be. I don't think the Vietnam War is

851
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 1: just or I'm opposed to all wars because I think

852
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:37,240
Speaker 1: all all soldiers are pawns of the elite ruling class. Um,

853
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 1: it has to be for religious reasons, and so a

854
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 1: lot of people, I think a hundred and seventy thousand,

855
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 1: hundred and seventy thousand we're granted CEO status during Vietnam

856
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 1: for those reasons, but other ones. And I think if

857
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 1: you're a true conscientious objector, you're not gonna lie and

858
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 1: say it's for religious reasons when it isn't for religious reasons.

859
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:00,800
Speaker 1: So those people, a lot of them went to fled

860
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:06,359
Speaker 1: to Canada, um or Mexico. I imagine too that the

861
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 1: two countries the other two in North America. Yeah, I'd

862
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 1: like to think if there was a draft today, I

863
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:15,240
Speaker 1: would go. I would try and get out by saying

864
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 1: you don't want me. It would not be good at this.

865
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 1: I'd go across the trenches and no man's land and say, hey,

866
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 1: let's get a conversation going, yeah, like this is the

867
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 1: last guy you want fighting for you really just let

868
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 1: me stay at home, like I'll maybe I'll do some

869
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:33,919
Speaker 1: good writing for you, or maybe I'll do a great

870
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 1: podcast on your efforts, and they'd hand you a picture

871
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 1: of beer and say get in there and go throw

872
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 1: that on that guy's head during war. Now, wait, there's

873
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:48,400
Speaker 1: there's one other thing that Vietnam changed. Vietnam see conscientious

874
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: objection and pacifism in the Vietnam era became inextricably linked

875
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:57,440
Speaker 1: to hippies and free love and their version of the

876
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 1: peace movement. Sure, and it just disgusted everybody who wasn't

877
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: a hippie, and pacivism actually really um it became disjointed,

878
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:11,280
Speaker 1: disorganized and fell the pieces during Vietnam, not because Vietnam

879
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 1: was a just war or that even most Americans were

880
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 1: behind it, but because the pacifist groups were just so

881
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:20,400
Speaker 1: poorly organized during the time that it almost gave pacifism

882
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 1: a bad name. And it wasn't until the early eighties

883
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 1: that nuclear pacifism sparked a revival of pacifism in the

884
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 1: United States. So those that was non hippie, yeah, that

885
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 1: it was just about anybody could get behind of all stripes.

886
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 1: Nuclear pacifism was I remember that being a big thing

887
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 1: in the eighties, or nuke the whales, one of the

888
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:48,800
Speaker 1: two UH. In nineteen seventy three, the draft um ended

889
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:53,880
Speaker 1: and wars from that point on were voluntary. UM or

890
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 1: military service at least was voluntary because there were still

891
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:02,480
Speaker 1: conscientious objectors within the military. In two thousand four, in Iraq,

892
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:06,280
Speaker 1: there were hundred and ten soldiers who filed their paperwork

893
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 1: to become a CEO, not a commanding officer. Um. They're like,

894
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:13,360
Speaker 1: I don't want to be a grand Just send me

895
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 1: to the top. Uh. And about half of these were

896
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:18,759
Speaker 1: granted and the ones that were rejected, some of them

897
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 1: went a wall and I went into hiding. Some more

898
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 1: Uh court martialed and went to jail. Which is unusual

899
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:28,879
Speaker 1: that there. This is the volunteer force. But they still

900
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:31,959
Speaker 1: had conscience as objectors on it. Wow, they didn't believe

901
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 1: in that particular war effort. Perhaps, Um, let's go back

902
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:42,840
Speaker 1: to Gandhi a bit okay. Um, he had this this bag.

903
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 1: His bag was called Sacha garha and that means truth force.

904
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:53,640
Speaker 1: And his whole thing was peace is a weapon. Yeah,

905
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 1: and we can use it that way and basically equalize

906
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:02,319
Speaker 1: this struggle. Um. Use sing all kinds of folks in

907
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:06,360
Speaker 1: a peaceful way. But uh, not just to say, you know,

908
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:09,840
Speaker 1: I'm a pacifist, but to really try and disrupt the

909
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 1: efforts of the war through pacifism. Yeah, he was be

910
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:17,239
Speaker 1: a thorn in the side. He He would be characterized

911
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 1: technically as a pragmatic pacifist because he realized that violence

912
00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 1: was not going to help the Indian cause and was

913
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:28,600
Speaker 1: going to make it worse, and that non violence in

914
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:31,840
Speaker 1: this case could be weaponized. And he weaponized non violence

915
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 1: and it really worked. And the reason why it worked

916
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 1: was because the world saw these British soldiers like beating

917
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 1: helpless Indians who were not fighting back. And the British

918
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 1: had long said, you know, not just in India, but

919
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 1: everywhere we have colonies, were civilizing these areas. But it

920
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 1: doesn't make very civil yeah, when you're when you're beating

921
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 1: an unarmed, non resisting Indian elderly person. Right. Um. And

922
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 1: it worked in that sense. But again he was not

923
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:05,719
Speaker 1: against the use of violence and other situations. So while

924
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 1: non violence is a part of pacifism, um, there there,

925
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 1: they can be separate things. Yes, you don't have to

926
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:15,719
Speaker 1: be a pacifist to be non violent. It can just

927
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 1: make sense in certain situations. Yeah, And there are three

928
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:21,800
Speaker 1: main ways that, Um, you can kind of go about

929
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 1: this non violent resistance. The first you can you know,

930
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 1: write letters, you can lobby, competition and pick it, you

931
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:33,759
Speaker 1: can wear symbol, you can march and protest. Uh. If

932
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:35,239
Speaker 1: you want to kick it up a notch, you can

933
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 1: move on to non cooperation, which is boycotting something, slowing

934
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:46,280
Speaker 1: down something, UM, reporting sick, having walkouts, embargoes. And then finally,

935
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 1: if you really want to go for it as a pacifist,

936
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:54,839
Speaker 1: non violent resistor, non violent intervention, which is fasting and

937
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:59,360
Speaker 1: sit ins. They form a shadow government, right, an underground newspaper.

938
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:05,080
Speaker 1: UM basically just um acts of civil disobedience. Yeah, pretty

939
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 1: powerful stuff there and all that. All that's non violent.

940
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:10,480
Speaker 1: But again, you don't have to be a pacifist to

941
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:13,880
Speaker 1: engage in these kind of things. UM. So there's a

942
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 1: lot of if you're sitting there like what about this?

943
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:18,880
Speaker 1: But what about that? What about this? You might be

944
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 1: a poll hooker hooker poker, right, which is like a

945
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 1: grand tradition in among humanity, because there's you know, there's

946
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 1: basically two ways of looking at people. And we did

947
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 1: an episode on UM I think it was called What's

948
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 1: the most Peaceful Time in History? And we talked a

949
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 1: lot about whether humans are inherently violent or inherently peaceful. Right,

950
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 1: So people love to say, like, hey, weirdo, who who

951
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 1: thinks there's no justification for violence? What about this situation?

952
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 1: Poll Hooker's right? So the poll hooker might first say

953
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:54,600
Speaker 1: something like, well, wait a minute, Wait a minute. You're

954
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:59,040
Speaker 1: you're trying to tell me that you're cool with executing

955
00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:03,160
Speaker 1: a criminal or shooting a guy who's coming at your

956
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:06,000
Speaker 1: family to set you all on fire, but you're not

957
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:10,720
Speaker 1: okay with going to war? What's the difference? Right? Or

958
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:14,920
Speaker 1: they might say, well, yeah, it's super easy to be

959
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 1: a pacifist as long as someone else is going out

960
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 1: there and fighting the war that keeps you free to

961
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:24,840
Speaker 1: be that pacifist, right, And that's that's one that pacifism

962
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 1: probably has the hardest time answering, because yeah, it's for

963
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 1: for a pacifist to sit around saying the United States, um,

964
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 1: you you you're in a pretty safe, comfortable position in

965
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:43,080
Speaker 1: part because other people went off and fought worse, you know,

966
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 1: or in a country that's been invaded before. You know, that's, um,

967
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:50,520
Speaker 1: that's a tough one to defend. And the really the

968
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 1: only solution I've seen is that pacifists say, well, I

969
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 1: think that we should outlaw all acts of aggression or

970
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:03,800
Speaker 1: all acts of violence, even against aggressors, And um, that's

971
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 1: just how I feel. If other people are going to

972
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 1: go fight, that's their thing. But if somebody came to

973
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:12,520
Speaker 1: kill me, I would let them kill me. Um. That's

974
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 1: a that's a tough one for sure, because I think

975
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 1: a lot of people who would say something like that

976
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:22,040
Speaker 1: might might not necessarily stick by it when they're actually

977
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 1: being assaulted by somebody who intends to kill them, or

978
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 1: probably more to the point, like their loved one is

979
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 1: being assaulted by someone who intends to kill them, to

980
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:38,200
Speaker 1: just step stand by and say, I'm sorry, but abs

981
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 1: pacifism is is the most morally upstanding thing I can do.

982
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 1: So you're dead. Yeah, And I think, and I'm talking

983
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 1: off the top of my head here again, but I

984
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:52,240
Speaker 1: think a pacifist it probably has to be a practice,

985
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 1: like an active thing you work at, you know, because

986
00:59:56,960 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 1: I think I think mostly the innate human response if

987
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:06,680
Speaker 1: someone tries to kill your child or your loved one

988
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 1: is to snap and defend them. So you probably really

989
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 1: have to like a meditation as a practice. I imagine

990
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:16,680
Speaker 1: that kind of pacivism has to be a practice. But

991
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 1: one of those poll hookers as you call them, might say,

992
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:23,320
Speaker 1: did you do what's morally right when you let that

993
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:27,480
Speaker 1: person indiscriminately kill your child in front of you and

994
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:30,200
Speaker 1: didn't do a thing about it to stop them. I

995
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:32,640
Speaker 1: think that's so extreme though, It's just I know, but

996
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:35,680
Speaker 1: that's where philosophy exists, is in the in the on

997
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 1: those extreme ends. You know, when you when you take

998
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 1: an idea and you test it to it's it's for

999
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:44,280
Speaker 1: this tensile strength. Like that's when you really get into

1000
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:46,520
Speaker 1: the meat of it, like what about this? What about that?

1001
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:49,720
Speaker 1: You know? And um, that's a I mean, I don't

1002
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily know that's moral. But then the pastivists

1003
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 1: would say, well, why is there why is their life

1004
01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 1: that my child's life worth more than the life of

1005
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:01,400
Speaker 1: this aggressor, right, which I would answer, well, your child

1006
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:05,560
Speaker 1: is not an aggressor. Aggressor's taking a step below your

1007
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:11,959
Speaker 1: child by being an aggressor. Boy, the tinsile strength is high. Uh,

1008
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 1: shall we talk a little bit about World War two

1009
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:17,320
Speaker 1: here kind of half in the closing moments, Yeah, for sure,

1010
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:21,120
Speaker 1: because it's really easy to look back at World War

1011
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 1: Two and kind of whitewash it as the boy the

1012
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:29,000
Speaker 1: Allies were out there to fight Hitler because he was

1013
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:32,880
Speaker 1: trying to kill Jews and uh, commit atrocities against humanity,

1014
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 1: and so we had to go in there and stop

1015
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:38,480
Speaker 1: him at all costs. Right, And a lot of people

1016
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:42,680
Speaker 1: point to World War two staying finally after years, here

1017
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:45,920
Speaker 1: is what proves the just war theory. This guy was

1018
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:48,840
Speaker 1: so bad and the stuff he was doing was so

1019
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:51,760
Speaker 1: bad that we had to go to war to stop him.

1020
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 1: Pacifists your idiots for saying otherwise, Yes, but here with

1021
01:01:55,880 --> 01:02:00,680
Speaker 1: the benefit of hindsight. There are some people out there, historians, theologists.

1022
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 1: Uh there's one guy named Nick Stanton Rourke who said

1023
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:06,480
Speaker 1: it's a sad fact that the Allies did little to

1024
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:10,640
Speaker 1: thwart the worst of Hitler's atrocities. Times with death camps

1025
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:14,880
Speaker 1: um which which we're bringing in and vetting more people

1026
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:18,040
Speaker 1: every day. Transportation routes into death camps could have been

1027
01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 1: targeted with no tactical risk to the Allied forces involved,

1028
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:24,800
Speaker 1: but they were routinely denied, often because the military was

1029
01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:28,560
Speaker 1: careful to avoid the appearance of fighting quote for the Jews,

1030
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 1: which would have lost popular support for the war. So

1031
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:33,840
Speaker 1: a lot of these historians now make a point that

1032
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:38,760
Speaker 1: a lot more deplum diplomacy and pacifist resistance could have

1033
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:42,680
Speaker 1: been more saved more lives even than the way they

1034
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:45,640
Speaker 1: went at it with Hitler. I didn't know. I didn't

1035
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:48,160
Speaker 1: know at all. So basically really eye opening from from

1036
01:02:48,160 --> 01:02:52,520
Speaker 1: what from what we found is that apparently, uh, the

1037
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 1: Allies were well aware of the threat to the Jews

1038
01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:59,520
Speaker 1: in Europe because it was going on for a long

1039
01:02:59,560 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 1: time before we got involved. Yeah, and he was publicly saying,

1040
01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:05,200
Speaker 1: if this turns into a world war, I'm laying it

1041
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:07,600
Speaker 1: on the at the feet of the Jews and I'm

1042
01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:12,560
Speaker 1: going to exterminate the Jews in Europe. So US take

1043
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:16,080
Speaker 1: that for what it's worth. And the US apparently knew

1044
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:18,080
Speaker 1: this that if they entered the war it would spell

1045
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 1: doom for the Jews in Europe, and that had the

1046
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 1: passive and this is the pacifist stance. Had we Um

1047
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:29,560
Speaker 1: gone to Hitler and said, you know what, what, we

1048
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 1: will accept conditional surrender, uh, if you will allow free

1049
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:36,840
Speaker 1: passage for the Jews out of Europe into other places

1050
01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:38,760
Speaker 1: where they're going to be safe. If you'll just let

1051
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:41,640
Speaker 1: them go. You're you're saying that you have to get

1052
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:44,320
Speaker 1: rid of them because they're useless, and you can't afford

1053
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:47,200
Speaker 1: to feed useless people, so you've got to exterminate them. Well,

1054
01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:49,360
Speaker 1: we'll take them from you. There was a lot of

1055
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:52,439
Speaker 1: stuff that could have been done that wasn't done. So

1056
01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:56,560
Speaker 1: from the pacifist standpoint, to point to World War two

1057
01:03:56,600 --> 01:04:00,440
Speaker 1: and say this proves the just war theory and that

1058
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:05,240
Speaker 1: pacifist doesn't work, the pacifist would say, actually, it proves

1059
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:09,320
Speaker 1: that we were not willing to try pacifism even when

1060
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:12,920
Speaker 1: it was apparent that that was going to possibly work

1061
01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:16,600
Speaker 1: way better than going to war was going to going

1062
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:20,560
Speaker 1: after an unconditional surrender. Well, and some historians point to

1063
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:24,280
Speaker 1: Denmark is being a prime example of how things could

1064
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:29,240
Speaker 1: have gone differently perhaps and how they handled Hitler's aggression. Um,

1065
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:34,400
Speaker 1: Denmark very famously was Um what did they say? They

1066
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:37,240
Speaker 1: were neutral? Yeah, they said we're neutral, and Germany said

1067
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 1: we don't care. Yeah, so Germany invaded him anyway. But

1068
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:44,800
Speaker 1: they said, you know what, we can't resist Hitler with arms,

1069
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:47,280
Speaker 1: like we're all going to be dead. Um, because we're

1070
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:49,440
Speaker 1: just too small. We have we have no means to

1071
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:52,280
Speaker 1: fight this war machine that's coming at us. So they

1072
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:55,280
Speaker 1: basically kind of gave up. UH, said that would be

1073
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:58,120
Speaker 1: a suicidal move to do anything otherwise, and said, here's

1074
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:01,040
Speaker 1: what we're gonna do. We're basically going to be pacifists,

1075
01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:07,160
Speaker 1: resistance uh resistors, and UH. They slowed things down. They

1076
01:05:07,200 --> 01:05:13,680
Speaker 1: delayed transportation, They sabotage equipment. UH, they sabotage railroads and infrastructure.

1077
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:17,400
Speaker 1: Workers went on strike when they were producing materials for

1078
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:21,240
Speaker 1: the Nazis. UH. They basically just said, we're not gonna

1079
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:24,320
Speaker 1: follow your anti Semitic policies. And when Hitler said, all right,

1080
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:28,960
Speaker 1: I want to deport all the Danish Jews, they said no,

1081
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:32,240
Speaker 1: and they hid them. They said what Danish Jews? Yeah,

1082
01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:34,880
Speaker 1: and they hid them all in addition to about fifteen

1083
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:39,040
Speaker 1: hundred more people who were refugees they're seeking uh protection

1084
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:42,920
Speaker 1: and not a single Danish Jew died during the Holocaust.

1085
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:47,000
Speaker 1: And apparently in the same post from nick Stanton rourke Um,

1086
01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:50,200
Speaker 1: he said that later on some of the higher ups

1087
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:52,600
Speaker 1: in the in the Third Reich said that they were

1088
01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:56,480
Speaker 1: confounded whenever they were confronted with non violence because they

1089
01:05:56,480 --> 01:05:58,640
Speaker 1: didn't know what to do with it, Yeah, you know,

1090
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:03,160
Speaker 1: and that that the that nonviolent resistance to the Third

1091
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:08,440
Speaker 1: Bich actually was more successful than bombing it into into nothingness,

1092
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:13,560
Speaker 1: because you still you still need some sort of support,

1093
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:18,400
Speaker 1: public support behind you. And if you if the news

1094
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:26,080
Speaker 1: reports are of like Nazis just wasting away Danish citizens

1095
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:29,040
Speaker 1: who aren't fighting back like they're not, they're not gonna

1096
01:06:29,040 --> 01:06:32,640
Speaker 1: have any support from their own followers. Well, and remember

1097
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:37,919
Speaker 1: in our Dictators episode we talked about how uh belligerents

1098
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:42,080
Speaker 1: from a foreign nation often causes the population to be

1099
01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:47,360
Speaker 1: afraid and get behind their dictator. Where um Nicholson Baker,

1100
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:51,240
Speaker 1: who's an author who is also a famous pacifist, he

1101
01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:55,160
Speaker 1: basically said that that it was fear that bound Hitler

1102
01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:58,520
Speaker 1: and Germany together, whereas if suddenly there was a cease

1103
01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:02,160
Speaker 1: to fighting and there is no threat any longer of

1104
01:07:02,200 --> 01:07:06,080
Speaker 1: being invaded or bombed by the Allies, that who knows

1105
01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:08,000
Speaker 1: what could have happened Hitler. There were a lot of

1106
01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:11,920
Speaker 1: like tratorious conspiracies against Hitler within his own ranks. There

1107
01:07:11,920 --> 01:07:14,520
Speaker 1: are a lot of resistance movements against him. Maybe he

1108
01:07:14,520 --> 01:07:17,160
Speaker 1: would have been replaced and at the very least he

1109
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:21,200
Speaker 1: would have died eventually and and um, probably some of

1110
01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:25,320
Speaker 1: the victims of the Holocaust would have been saved. It's

1111
01:07:25,360 --> 01:07:27,600
Speaker 1: a it's like that's but think about it, that's almost

1112
01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:30,920
Speaker 1: blasphemy to talk about that, like not being violent or

1113
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:35,920
Speaker 1: aggressive toward Hitler. But apparently that's because of a revision

1114
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:40,080
Speaker 1: over time over the goals and the reasons why we

1115
01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:43,600
Speaker 1: entered World War two. Interesting, it really is. It's very

1116
01:07:43,640 --> 01:07:48,680
Speaker 1: eye opening. And then lastly, does pacifism work with terrorists

1117
01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:56,080
Speaker 1: like isis? I love how this article basically sums it up. No, nope, Yeah,

1118
01:07:56,240 --> 01:07:59,240
Speaker 1: nobody knows what what No pacifist knows what to do

1119
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:04,720
Speaker 1: with something like isis they? Maybe they probably break pacifism

1120
01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:08,480
Speaker 1: even more than Hitler does the idea of it. Yeah,

1121
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:12,040
Speaker 1: well that's a big one. Yeah, boy good. We haven't

1122
01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:13,520
Speaker 1: had a good deep talk like that in a while.

1123
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:20,400
Speaker 1: I'm glad we uh touched what was it we were

1124
01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:23,800
Speaker 1: touched by the pacifist bug. Yeah, glad that happened. If

1125
01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:26,080
Speaker 1: you want to be touched by the pacifist bugs. Is

1126
01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:28,599
Speaker 1: typed that word into the search bar. How stuff works,

1127
01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:31,120
Speaker 1: and it will bring up this great article. And since

1128
01:08:31,160 --> 01:08:36,080
Speaker 1: I said search bar, it's time for listener mail. We

1129
01:08:36,240 --> 01:08:41,320
Speaker 1: got an email about our CTE episode from a NFL

1130
01:08:41,360 --> 01:08:45,759
Speaker 1: player from a Dallas Cowboy. Did you read that one? Wow?

1131
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:50,800
Speaker 1: Emmett Cleary. He's a guard. He's a guard for the

1132
01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:54,559
Speaker 1: amazing offensive line of the Dallas Cowboys and a smart dude,

1133
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:58,559
Speaker 1: which Boston College thanks for writing. Yeah, I was pretty excited.

1134
01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:02,479
Speaker 1: Any Um he said that I could read this. Uh. Hey, guys,

1135
01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:04,280
Speaker 1: current NFL player, A big fan of the show. I

1136
01:09:04,320 --> 01:09:07,400
Speaker 1: have a background in science biology at Boston College and

1137
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:10,639
Speaker 1: my interest was piquked about CTE. You covered all sides

1138
01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:12,200
Speaker 1: of it, but I wanted to share the perspective and

1139
01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:15,719
Speaker 1: active player. As the research has progressed in garner media

1140
01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:18,479
Speaker 1: coverage over the last ten years, awareness of the risks

1141
01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:21,800
Speaker 1: of repetitive brain trauma among players has grown. Can't speak

1142
01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:24,320
Speaker 1: for everyone, but guys seem more cautious with their brain health.

1143
01:09:25,080 --> 01:09:29,800
Speaker 1: From the time I started college football, football culture has changed. UH.

1144
01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:33,040
Speaker 1: Players have become more proactive reporting head injuries and more

1145
01:09:33,080 --> 01:09:36,240
Speaker 1: conservative in returning to play. I've seen my teammates look

1146
01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:38,519
Speaker 1: out for each other and advise each other towards safety.

1147
01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:41,800
Speaker 1: UH and an occupation that promotes a warrior mentality. This

1148
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:44,439
Speaker 1: is a good thing. We understand that nobody gets out

1149
01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:46,439
Speaker 1: of the game healthy, and while most people are okay

1150
01:09:46,840 --> 01:09:49,880
Speaker 1: with bad knees or shoulders or back problems, brain health

1151
01:09:49,960 --> 01:09:53,360
Speaker 1: is a serious concern. As this all went public, it

1152
01:09:53,439 --> 01:09:57,880
Speaker 1: became increasingly apparent how deceitful NFL leadership has been. While

1153
01:09:57,880 --> 01:10:01,439
Speaker 1: the league office in club medicals tasks include many good

1154
01:10:01,439 --> 01:10:04,640
Speaker 1: people who undoubtedly care about our long term health, the

1155
01:10:04,720 --> 01:10:10,400
Speaker 1: leadership is consistently OBUs skated evidence, promoted pseudoscience, an outright

1156
01:10:10,439 --> 01:10:14,080
Speaker 1: lied about the effects of head injuries. Retired players feel betrayed,

1157
01:10:14,080 --> 01:10:16,880
Speaker 1: and active players have no reason to trust that league

1158
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:20,160
Speaker 1: that the league will prioritize our health overcovering its own.

1159
01:10:21,120 --> 01:10:24,799
Speaker 1: But legally, protecting brain health is good for everybody involved,

1160
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:28,400
Speaker 1: but the league is more concerned with avoiding liability uh

1161
01:10:28,439 --> 01:10:32,559
Speaker 1: in convincing public that football is harmless. Until longitudinal studies

1162
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:35,240
Speaker 1: can accurately quantify the risk of football, we do the

1163
01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:38,240
Speaker 1: best we can with the information we have. Guy's balance

1164
01:10:38,280 --> 01:10:42,160
Speaker 1: and known risks of against the joy and benefits of playing. Personally,

1165
01:10:42,200 --> 01:10:45,519
Speaker 1: I'm hoping to enjoy my career and get out relatively healthy.

1166
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:47,640
Speaker 1: I love my job and don't want to jeopardize my

1167
01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:50,879
Speaker 1: long term well being. Thanks for bringing your typical rigorous

1168
01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:55,160
Speaker 1: research and balance. You point to a critical issue. Offensive

1169
01:10:55,200 --> 01:11:01,639
Speaker 1: guard Emmed Clary, don't tell anybody said this. Okay, man,

1170
01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:04,559
Speaker 1: I know, I know that was a great email. Thank you.

1171
01:11:05,400 --> 01:11:09,599
Speaker 1: Offensive lineman Clary. Think how you address professional football play?

1172
01:11:10,240 --> 01:11:14,120
Speaker 1: So uh he said, if we come back to Dallas

1173
01:11:14,280 --> 01:11:19,400
Speaker 1: or Chicago, because he's maybe from Chicago, well hang cool,

1174
01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:23,599
Speaker 1: drinking contest, nice and we'll put on the helmets and

1175
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:28,040
Speaker 1: crack them together. Yeah. Oh I watched the game. Um oh, man,

1176
01:11:28,120 --> 01:11:32,080
Speaker 1: I think it was Louisville versus somebody who knows a

1177
01:11:32,080 --> 01:11:35,280
Speaker 1: team that had different colors on right, college football, Yeah,

1178
01:11:35,320 --> 01:11:36,880
Speaker 1: it was. It was one of the It was a

1179
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:41,080
Speaker 1: bowl Louisville versus somebody whoever they played in their bowl.

1180
01:11:41,840 --> 01:11:45,599
Speaker 1: I'm not sure they played this year. Well, somebody um

1181
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:49,080
Speaker 1: lad with the crown of their head and hit somebody

1182
01:11:49,080 --> 01:11:53,639
Speaker 1: else in the in the the helmet um and got

1183
01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:56,240
Speaker 1: ejected for the game and rightfully. So they made a

1184
01:11:56,280 --> 01:11:58,880
Speaker 1: big deal of it. Yeah, college football, they'll do that.

1185
01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:01,479
Speaker 1: They call it tar getting it. Yeah they did. And

1186
01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:03,720
Speaker 1: um but I mean I remember a couple of years

1187
01:12:03,720 --> 01:12:05,800
Speaker 1: ago they're like that goods are good hit. Yeah, you're

1188
01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:09,559
Speaker 1: wrong his bill. But everybody's talking very seriously and quietly

1189
01:12:09,600 --> 01:12:14,559
Speaker 1: about how this is a big deal. I'm like purpose progress. Yeah,

1190
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:18,720
Speaker 1: well thanks a lot again, offensive Lineman Cleary. Uh. And

1191
01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:20,559
Speaker 1: if you want to get in touch with this like

1192
01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:23,200
Speaker 1: he did, you can tweet to us. I'm at josh

1193
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:26,360
Speaker 1: um Clark uh. And I'm also at s Y s

1194
01:12:26,400 --> 01:12:29,960
Speaker 1: K podcast on Twitter. Chuck's at Charles W. Chuck Bryant

1195
01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:32,600
Speaker 1: on Facebook and at Facebook dot com slash Stuff you

1196
01:12:32,640 --> 01:12:35,640
Speaker 1: Should Know. We can both be reached at Stuff Podcast

1197
01:12:35,720 --> 01:12:38,240
Speaker 1: at how Stuff Works dot com via email, and has

1198
01:12:38,280 --> 01:12:40,519
Speaker 1: always hang out with us at our luxurious home on

1199
01:12:40,560 --> 01:12:47,680
Speaker 1: the web. Stuff you Should Know dot com for more

1200
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:50,000
Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how

1201
01:12:50,080 --> 01:13:03,120
Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. I'm at, I'm null, I'm Ben,

1202
01:13:03,360 --> 01:13:05,680
Speaker 1: and we are Stuff they don't want you to know.

1203
01:13:06,120 --> 01:13:09,599
Speaker 1: Each week we cover the latest and strangest in fringe science,

1204
01:13:09,720 --> 01:13:13,519
Speaker 1: government cover ups, allegations of the paranormal, and more. New

1205
01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:17,040
Speaker 1: episodes come out every Friday on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play,

1206
01:13:17,080 --> 01:13:19,120
Speaker 1: and anywhere else you get your podcasts.