WEBVTT - #176 Wrongful Conviction: False Confessions - Tommy Ward Pt. 1

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to wrongful conviction, False Confessions. I'm Laura and I

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<v Speaker 1>writer and I'm Steve Drecy. In nineteen eighty four, a

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<v Speaker 1>woman from Ada, Oklahoma went missing. A few months later,

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<v Speaker 1>a man named Tommy Ward told police that he'd had

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<v Speaker 1>a bad dream about her murder. Incredibly, the police took

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<v Speaker 1>that dream and turned it into a false confession. Tommy

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<v Speaker 1>Ward's story has fascinated the world. In two thousand and six,

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<v Speaker 1>the author John Grisham wrote a book about Tommy and

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<v Speaker 1>his co defendant, Carl Fontaneau. John's career as a writer

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<v Speaker 1>was changed by Tommy and Carl's case, but he's not

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<v Speaker 1>the only one who's been moved by it. A few

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<v Speaker 1>years ago, their story was made into a Netflix Global

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<v Speaker 1>series called The Innocent Man. Now the whole world has

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<v Speaker 1>been moved too. It's our honor to be part of

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<v Speaker 1>the fight to exonerate Tommy Ward and Carl Fonteneau. Here's

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<v Speaker 1>hoping we can deliver a wake up call in this

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<v Speaker 1>nightmare of a case.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm John Grisham, author of a number of legal thrillers

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<v Speaker 2>and one work of nonfiction. About fifteen years ago, I

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<v Speaker 2>found myself in Ada, Oklahoma doing the research for a

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<v Speaker 2>nonfiction book that was eventually titled The Innocent Man. It's

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<v Speaker 2>just a truly fascinating case because there were no clues,

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<v Speaker 2>there were no witnesses, there was no body, there was

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<v Speaker 2>no corpse, there was no murder weapon, there was nothing

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<v Speaker 2>for Tommy Willard confessed to the crime, and from that

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<v Speaker 2>moment on he was a guilty man. The judge allowed

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<v Speaker 2>this case to go forward without a body. Even on

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<v Speaker 2>my most creative days, I'm not sure I could create

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<v Speaker 2>stuff like this. Once I started researching Tommy's case Carl's case,

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<v Speaker 2>I realized that there are thousands of innocent people in prison,

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<v Speaker 2>and realized that before At that point I moved away,

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<v Speaker 2>for the most part, from suspense intrigue thrillers to something

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<v Speaker 2>still similar, but much more issue driven capital punishment, wrong

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<v Speaker 2>for confiction, mass incarceration, the issues I care about in

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<v Speaker 2>the criminal justice system and the injustices that we tolerate.

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<v Speaker 2>When we could fix this stuff if we had the

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<v Speaker 2>will to do it. So, the Tommy Willard Carl Fontina

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<v Speaker 2>case had a profound impact on me as a writer.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, Steve John Christian's right in this case, the

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<v Speaker 1>truth really is stranger than fiction. This is one of

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<v Speaker 1>the most bizarre kinds of false confessions you can imagine.

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<v Speaker 3>This case is fascinating because it is about a dream

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<v Speaker 3>that is converted by police officers into a confession. Cases

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<v Speaker 3>like this are extremely rare.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, I mean, how many dream cases do you know about?

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<v Speaker 3>I've studied hundreds of false confessions and maybe there's a

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<v Speaker 3>dozen of them.

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<v Speaker 1>To our listeners. If you haven't heard this story, get ready.

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<v Speaker 1>It's an incredible one. If you have read John Grisham's

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<v Speaker 1>book or seen the Netflix series, we have some new

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<v Speaker 1>developments to share with you.

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<v Speaker 3>Because attorneys at the Center on Wrongful Convictions, the organization

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<v Speaker 3>You and I Codirect, have uncovered new information that makes

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<v Speaker 3>it clear that Tommy Ward is innocent, but.

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<v Speaker 1>He's still in prison. He's been there for thirty five years.

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<v Speaker 1>He needs to come home now, right now. Tommy's story

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<v Speaker 1>starts in the town of Aida, a rural Oklahoma community

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<v Speaker 1>of about seventeen thousand people. It's a Bible belt town

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<v Speaker 1>where the churches are full but the factories are empty.

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<v Speaker 1>In Aida, poverty can sometimes make justice seem like a

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<v Speaker 1>faraway dream. In nineteen eighty four, Denise Harroway was one

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<v Speaker 1>of Ada's seventeen thousand people. Denise was twenty four years old,

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<v Speaker 1>a petite, blonde woman who'd recently gotten married. She was

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<v Speaker 1>enrolled in college and helped pay tuition by working the

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<v Speaker 1>evening shift by herself at mcinally's convenience store. But when

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<v Speaker 1>customers walked into mcinally's at eight fifty pm on April

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<v Speaker 1>twenty eighth, they found an open cash register and no

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<v Speaker 1>attendant in sight. Denise had vanished. There'd be no sign

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<v Speaker 1>of her for a year and a half. Ada police

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<v Speaker 1>started investigating Denise's disappearance, and right away they suspected foul play.

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<v Speaker 1>A customer who'd been at mcinally's earlier that evening told

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<v Speaker 1>police he'd seen Denise leave the store with a strange

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<v Speaker 1>man who drove her away in a pickup truck. Police

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<v Speaker 1>also spoke to a female clerk at a different nearby

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<v Speaker 1>convenience store. She reported that a few hours before Denise disappeared,

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<v Speaker 1>two men came into her store. They were rowdy, she said,

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<v Speaker 1>and kept buying alcohol. They made her nervous. She gave

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<v Speaker 1>the cops some rough descriptions, and a police artist made

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<v Speaker 1>two composite sketches. In terms of evidence that was it.

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<v Speaker 1>No one knew what happened to Denise. There was no body,

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<v Speaker 1>no sightings, no nothing. Police showed the composite sketches on

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<v Speaker 1>TV and asked for the public's help. Dozens of tips

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<v Speaker 1>were phoned in. A few callers thought that the sketches

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<v Speaker 1>looked a little bit like a twenty four year old

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<v Speaker 1>Ada man named Tommy Ward.

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<v Speaker 3>Now.

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<v Speaker 1>The Ward family was poor. They lived on Ada's South Side,

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<v Speaker 1>in the part of town that everyone knew was on

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<v Speaker 1>the wrong side of the tracks. Growing up, there were

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<v Speaker 1>eight kids in the house. Tommy was number seven. Everyone

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<v Speaker 1>children included was expected to pitch in to keep the

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<v Speaker 1>lights on and the rent paid. The older kids would work,

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<v Speaker 1>the younger kids would spend hot Oklahoma summers walking along

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<v Speaker 1>the highway searching for empty beer cans that they could

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<v Speaker 1>turn in for a five cent deposit. The Wards were

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<v Speaker 1>a law abiding family. When Tommy was a teenager, he'd

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<v Speaker 1>been arrested a few times for petty crimes like public drunkenness,

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<v Speaker 1>but nothing serious. The idea of him suddenly kidnapping Denise

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<v Speaker 1>Haraway was pretty crazy. Despite this, police brought Tommy in

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<v Speaker 1>for questioning just a few days after Denise's disappearance. Tommy

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<v Speaker 1>told them he had nothing to do with Denise. In fact,

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<v Speaker 1>he said, on the night she disappeared, he was at

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<v Speaker 1>a keg party out of town, twenty five miles away.

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<v Speaker 1>Police released Tommy and tracked down some other partygoers. Several

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<v Speaker 1>of them confirmed Tommy's alibi, but police also caught wind

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<v Speaker 1>of a rumor that had been spreading around town. Tommy

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<v Speaker 1>supposedly told others at the party that he'd done something terrible.

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<v Speaker 1>That one word was apparently enough to make the cops

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<v Speaker 1>think that Tommy had killed Denise. They bring Tommy back

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<v Speaker 1>to the station months later, on October eighteenth, nineteen eighty four,

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<v Speaker 1>for what would become nine hours of interrogation. Who killed

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<v Speaker 1>that girl? Did you kill her? You thought she was pretty,

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<v Speaker 1>didn't you? The questions come fast and furious, but Tommy

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<v Speaker 1>still denies having anything to do with Denise's disappearance. He

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<v Speaker 1>reminds his interrogators of his alibi, but they administer a polygraph.

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<v Speaker 1>They falsely tell Tommy that it proved he'd been lying.

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<v Speaker 1>That's when the interrogation turns nightmarish. Tommy tells the cops

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<v Speaker 1>that maybe he failed the polygraph because he was nervous.

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<v Speaker 1>In fact, he says knowing he was a suspect in

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<v Speaker 1>this case had upset him so much that he had

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<v Speaker 1>a bad dream. Tell us about your dream, the police say,

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<v Speaker 1>and Tommy does. In the dream, Tommy was out by

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<v Speaker 1>Ada's local power plants, sitting in a pickup truck with

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<v Speaker 1>three people he didn't know, two men and a woman.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the men tried to kiss the woman and

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<v Speaker 1>Tommy told him to back off. Then Tommy said he

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to go home. You're already home, the man answered. Suddenly,

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<v Speaker 1>Tommy was standing at his kitchen sink trying to scrub

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<v Speaker 1>a dark liquid off his hands. The cops pounce your dream,

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<v Speaker 1>They say, matches the facts of the case. There's a

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<v Speaker 1>pickup truck in your dream, and we believe Denise was

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<v Speaker 1>kidnapped in a pickup truck. It doesn't make sense to

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<v Speaker 1>say this was just a dream, they say. You know

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<v Speaker 1>what does make sense, you and these other two men

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<v Speaker 1>killing Denise. So where did the story in Tommy's dream

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<v Speaker 1>come from? Turns out, a few days before this nine

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<v Speaker 1>hour interrogation, police had briefly talked to.

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<v Speaker 3>Tommy, and during that questioning, the police officers said to Tommy,

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<v Speaker 3>use your imagination for just a moment. This girl was

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<v Speaker 3>taken out of a grocery store at night. Two guys

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<v Speaker 3>come in and got her, and they'd gotten a pickup

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<v Speaker 3>and they drove away a beautiful girl like that. Maybe

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<v Speaker 3>they raped her before they killed her. That is a

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<v Speaker 3>direct quote from these detectives. The police officers had planted

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<v Speaker 3>the core ideas of this crime in Tommy's mind, including

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<v Speaker 3>the pickup truck, which remembers a detail that a witness

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<v Speaker 3>had already told them about, and Tommy began to have

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<v Speaker 3>nightmares about the story the police told him.

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<v Speaker 1>The interrogation continues for hours. Police tell Tommy he'll get

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<v Speaker 1>the death penalty if he doesn't confess to killing Denise. Eventually,

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<v Speaker 1>Tommy caves. He starts changing his dream to include what

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<v Speaker 1>the police tell him. In his dream, he says he

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<v Speaker 1>did recognize the other guys. They were two eight of

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<v Speaker 1>men named Carl Fontaneau and Odell Titsworth. He dreamed that

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<v Speaker 1>they'd robbed mcinelli's together, that they'd kidnapped Denise and raped

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<v Speaker 1>her in a pickup truck. They stabbed her in the

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<v Speaker 1>dream too, he says, and left her body in a

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<v Speaker 1>culvert by the power plant. After nine hours of this,

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<v Speaker 1>police bring in a video camera. According to Tommy, they say,

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<v Speaker 1>time to cut the dream. Bullshit, This wasn't something you dreamed,

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<v Speaker 1>It was something you did.

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<v Speaker 2>Tommy, have the power plant? Where nay share webs?

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<v Speaker 4>Why did you go to the para plant? It's pulled over.

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<v Speaker 1>Tommy finds himself repeating the whole story on camera, not

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<v Speaker 1>as a dream but as cold hard reality.

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<v Speaker 2>It was the first person in the store. Did he

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<v Speaker 2>have any guy weapons?

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<v Speaker 3>They told me that he was going to kill her.

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<v Speaker 4>That's where got out to bar.

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<v Speaker 2>You understand how serious this investigation is.

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<v Speaker 1>Incredibly, the police have transformed Tommy's dream into a murder confession.

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<v Speaker 3>Let's talk a little bit about dream statements. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>there comes a point in every interrogation where the police

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<v Speaker 3>officers have tried to get the suspect to confess, and

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<v Speaker 3>the suspect just says, well, I have no memory of

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<v Speaker 3>committing this crime, or I can't help you. I wasn't there.

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<v Speaker 3>And then either the police officers suggest to the suspect,

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<v Speaker 3>have you had any dreams about this case? Or the

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<v Speaker 3>suspect will suggest on his own accord, you know I

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<v Speaker 3>have had some dreams about this, and what that does

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<v Speaker 3>is it gives police officers something to exploit. It allows

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<v Speaker 3>the conversation to continue, and the police officers end up

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<v Speaker 3>converting what was a dream into a confession.

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<v Speaker 1>During Tommy's videotaped statement, the only lingering reference to any

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<v Speaker 1>of this being a dream comes at the very end.

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<v Speaker 1>Is there anything else you want to add? Police ask him.

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<v Speaker 1>I thought it was just a dream, Tommy quietly says.

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<v Speaker 3>He always thought that the police officers would recognize this

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<v Speaker 3>is not reality. Go out, investigate the case, and you're

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<v Speaker 3>going to find out that this is all a bunch

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<v Speaker 3>of horseship.

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<v Speaker 1>Based on his so called confession, Tommy Ward found himself

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<v Speaker 1>in jail, charged with capital murder, and the investigation that's

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<v Speaker 1>to come, well, horseshit is exactly the right word.

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<v Speaker 4>I was stationed on an aircraft current when my sister

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<v Speaker 4>called and started telling me that they got Tommy for this.

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<v Speaker 5>It was not a good day.

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<v Speaker 1>That's Melvin Ward, one of Tommy's older brothers. He was

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<v Speaker 1>in the service when he found out that Tommy had

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<v Speaker 1>been arrested, and he flew back to Ada right away.

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<v Speaker 5>I did not believe it.

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<v Speaker 4>I thought, well, you know, He's going to get awful

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<v Speaker 4>this because I know he didn't do it.

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<v Speaker 5>It's not Tomy's character to do something like this. He

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<v Speaker 5>was not a bad kid. He'd never heard anybody.

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<v Speaker 4>He'd stayed out of trouble other than a few public drunks.

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<v Speaker 4>Tommy would have been the kind of person that if

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<v Speaker 4>somebody was attacking this lady, he would have been there

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<v Speaker 4>to protect her.

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<v Speaker 5>That's Tommy.

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<v Speaker 4>Tommy did nothing for them to go after him like

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<v Speaker 4>they did, other than we living on an other side's track.

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<v Speaker 4>We was not in the proper society at the time.

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<v Speaker 4>They believed that Tommy was guilty and they was going

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<v Speaker 4>to pull no stops to get into confess, and that's

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<v Speaker 4>not proper police work at all.

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<v Speaker 1>Tommy wasn't the only person from the wrong side of

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<v Speaker 1>the tracks who got ensnared in this case. Within hours,

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<v Speaker 1>police arrest Tommy's dream accomplices, Carl Fontano and Odell Titsworth

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<v Speaker 1>and questioned them both. Carl was twenty years old, a

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<v Speaker 1>friend of Tommy's who was seriously intellectually disabled and pretty

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<v Speaker 1>much alone in the world.

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<v Speaker 4>Carl was a nice guy. I know my mom liked him,

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<v Speaker 4>and my mom bless her heart. She was a good

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<v Speaker 4>judge character. At the time, she was working at one

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<v Speaker 4>of the convenience stores down there in Ada, and the

0:13:56.800 --> 0:13:58.880
<v Speaker 4>kid would come in and he didn't have much of

0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:02.720
<v Speaker 4>the family gave him a sandwich from the store every

0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:05.720
<v Speaker 4>now and then. And I think Tommy met Carl by

0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:10.160
<v Speaker 4>he was sleeping on my sister's front porch. Tommy kind

0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:14.160
<v Speaker 4>of took Carl on his wing and they become friends.

0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:18.360
<v Speaker 1>To understand how Carl's interrogation went down, you need to

0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:21.840
<v Speaker 1>know that a few months earlier, Carl had witnessed his

0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:24.880
<v Speaker 1>own mother's death. The two of them had been driving

0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:28.160
<v Speaker 1>on the highway when their car broke down. Carl's mom

0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:30.800
<v Speaker 1>got out and headed for a nearby restaurant to call

0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:33.600
<v Speaker 1>for help, but as she was crossing the highway, she

0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:38.600
<v Speaker 1>was hit and killed by another car. Carl felt terrible guilt.

0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:41.680
<v Speaker 1>He blamed himself for not being the one who'd gone

0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:44.960
<v Speaker 1>for help. It was that sense of guilt, along with

0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:49.760
<v Speaker 1>his disability, that police used to manipulate Carl during his interrogation.

0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:53.960
<v Speaker 1>The police suggested that Carl should make amends for his

0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:57.760
<v Speaker 1>mom's death by saying he was involved in Denise's death.

0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:01.600
<v Speaker 3>Can you imagine the trauma have been experiencing. I mean,

0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:06.800
<v Speaker 3>he saw his mother die. The police officers used that

0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:12.880
<v Speaker 3>prior traumatic event to help break down Carl into accepting

0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:17.360
<v Speaker 3>responsibility for Denise's death, and he caved much sooner than

0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:18.800
<v Speaker 3>Tommy did.

0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.560
<v Speaker 1>Just like with Tommy, police took a videotaped statement from Carl.

0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:26.120
<v Speaker 1>In it, he agreed that he helped Odell Titsworth and

0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:28.760
<v Speaker 1>Tommy Ward rape and stab Denise.

0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:32.200
<v Speaker 4>Carl, let me ask you this, at any point in time,

0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:33.760
<v Speaker 4>did you stab her?

0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.760
<v Speaker 3>No? I did not, nor did Tommy. Odell done all

0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:38.760
<v Speaker 3>this day right there?

0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:42.280
<v Speaker 2>Did Joe try to stop him from stander?

0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:42.480
<v Speaker 3>No?

0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:46.320
<v Speaker 1>Carl even said they burned her body afterwards?

0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:50.440
<v Speaker 2>Who spread the Gasdell? He poured all the gas on

0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:53.320
<v Speaker 2>her hair side, and we threw the match on her

0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:56.480
<v Speaker 2>and walked out, And then I asked, just burn up

0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:57.359
<v Speaker 2>on the inside.

0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:02.320
<v Speaker 1>Based on this confession, Carl was charged with Denise's death,

0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:03.840
<v Speaker 1>right alongside Tommy.

0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.240
<v Speaker 5>Knowing that Tommy was innocent. That made me know that

0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:08.160
<v Speaker 5>Carl was innocent.

0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:12.520
<v Speaker 4>Tommy, it took him almost nine hours to break him down,

0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:15.560
<v Speaker 4>and Carl he was a little bit more acceptible to

0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:16.480
<v Speaker 4>their interrogation.

0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:18.520
<v Speaker 5>I think it higher in forty five minutes.

0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:23.320
<v Speaker 1>But the supposed third guy, Odell Titsworth, well, he's another story.

0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:27.480
<v Speaker 1>Odell was a four time convicted felon with experience in

0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:31.400
<v Speaker 1>the interrogation room. When police questioned him about Denise, he

0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:34.640
<v Speaker 1>doesn't budge an inch. I don't care what Ward and

0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:37.880
<v Speaker 1>Fontineau say. He insists I had nothing to do with

0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:42.360
<v Speaker 1>Denise's disappearance. Now Odell is thrown in jail anyway, but

0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:45.920
<v Speaker 1>pretty soon it becomes clear that he's got a great alibi.

0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:50.920
<v Speaker 1>Two days before Denise's disappearance, Odell had an altercation with

0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:54.840
<v Speaker 1>the police and they'd broken his arm badly. On the

0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:58.040
<v Speaker 1>night Denise disappeared, Odell Titsworth was laid up with a

0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:02.160
<v Speaker 1>spiral fracture. Struggle with a grown woman, hold her down

0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:06.960
<v Speaker 1>and rape her, stab her. It was physically impossible. Odell

0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:08.000
<v Speaker 1>was cleared.

0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:11.200
<v Speaker 4>This is one point I've always trying to wrap around

0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:14.600
<v Speaker 4>people's head. If they were not being fed information, how

0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:17.920
<v Speaker 4>did both them boys come up with a totally innocent

0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:18.520
<v Speaker 4>man's name.

0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:21.320
<v Speaker 5>He can't happen, see what I'm saying.

0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:25.480
<v Speaker 1>While Odell Titsworth got to go home, Tommy and Carl

0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:30.000
<v Speaker 1>weren't so lucky. Prosecutors pressed forward with cases against Tommy

0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:33.199
<v Speaker 1>and Carl, even though their confessions turned out to be

0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:37.560
<v Speaker 1>wildly different. The confessions didn't agree on who raped Denise,

0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:41.280
<v Speaker 1>where she was stabbed, or when she died, And when

0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:44.679
<v Speaker 1>it came to the big question, where was Denise, the

0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:48.560
<v Speaker 1>confessions disagreed there too. Remember Tommy said they'd left her

0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:51.879
<v Speaker 1>body in a culvert near the power plant, but Carl

0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:55.679
<v Speaker 1>said they'd burned Denise's body in an abandoned house, and

0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:59.000
<v Speaker 1>then they burned the house down too. The authorities checked

0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:01.880
<v Speaker 1>out both stories, but they found no sign of Denise

0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:05.320
<v Speaker 1>in either the culvert or the abandoned house. In fact,

0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:10.480
<v Speaker 1>Carl's abandoned house actually burned down ten months before Denise disappeared.

0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:15.560
<v Speaker 1>Their confessions just didn't match reality. In a last ditch

0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:18.800
<v Speaker 1>effort to get Carl to clean up his story, police

0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:20.760
<v Speaker 1>try something pretty outrageous.

0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:26.560
<v Speaker 3>So Carl is sitting in jail, he's just confessed to

0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:31.000
<v Speaker 3>this crime, and the police officers go to a local

0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:35.760
<v Speaker 3>university and gather a bunch of bones.

0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:37.920
<v Speaker 1>From the science lab human bones.

0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:40.959
<v Speaker 3>And they bring this bag of bones into the jail

0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:45.679
<v Speaker 3>and they say, we found Denise Harway's skull where you

0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:49.239
<v Speaker 3>said it was. But we can't find the rest of

0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:52.600
<v Speaker 3>her body. And Carl can't answer the question. He says,

0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:54.760
<v Speaker 3>I wish I could help, but I don't know where

0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:55.560
<v Speaker 3>her body is.

0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:58.160
<v Speaker 1>Carl's terrified. He can't tell him a thing. I mean,

0:18:58.240 --> 0:18:59.240
<v Speaker 1>what the fuck is this?

0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:01.800
<v Speaker 3>I've never seen I've seen this before, Laura, this is

0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:11.800
<v Speaker 3>just beyond the pale.

0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:15.280
<v Speaker 1>Carl and Tommy were tried together on September twenty fourth,

0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:19.880
<v Speaker 1>nineteen eighty five. At trial, prosecutors called a mcinally's customer

0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:23.960
<v Speaker 1>named James Moyer. Moyer testified that he'd seen someone who

0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:27.080
<v Speaker 1>looked like Tommy Ward in the store an hour before

0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:32.200
<v Speaker 1>Denise disappeared. That's pretty thin evidence, but the prosecutors had more.

0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:36.040
<v Speaker 1>As the centerpiece of the trial, they played Tommy and

0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:40.840
<v Speaker 1>Carl's confession tapes for the jury. Prosecutors conceded that sure,

0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:43.800
<v Speaker 1>Tommy and Carl got a lot of things wrong, Sure

0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:46.760
<v Speaker 1>their confessions were false when it came to Odell's involvement,

0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:49.520
<v Speaker 1>and sure the facts that they seemed to get right,

0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:52.080
<v Speaker 1>like the pickup truck, had been fed to them by

0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:56.720
<v Speaker 1>their interrogators. But set all that aside. Prosecutors said, we've

0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:00.840
<v Speaker 1>got proof. They said that Tommy and Carl's confessions are reliable,

0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:06.760
<v Speaker 1>a real ace in the hole. So what was that proof?

0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:11.600
<v Speaker 1>Prosecutors argued that Tommy and Carl's confessions could be trusted

0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:16.159
<v Speaker 1>because they both accurately described what Denise was wearing the

0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:20.280
<v Speaker 1>night she disappeared. During Tommy's confession, he said Denise was

0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:23.240
<v Speaker 1>wearing a button up blouse with little blue roses on

0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:27.600
<v Speaker 1>it and lace on the collar and sleeves. Similarly, Carl

0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:29.919
<v Speaker 1>had said she was wearing a button up blouse with

0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:34.200
<v Speaker 1>ruffles on the collar and elastic on the sleeves. Now,

0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:37.960
<v Speaker 1>prosecutors said, at the time of the confessions, the police

0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:41.399
<v Speaker 1>had no idea what Denise had been wearing, so the

0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:45.080
<v Speaker 1>interrogators couldn't have fed details about the blouse to Tommy

0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:49.480
<v Speaker 1>and Carl. The only explanation for Tommy and Carl's matching

0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:53.160
<v Speaker 1>stories was that they had both actually been with Denise

0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:57.560
<v Speaker 1>that night. To really clinch the case, Denise's sister took

0:20:57.600 --> 0:21:00.480
<v Speaker 1>the stand and revealed that Denise did to own a

0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:04.280
<v Speaker 1>blouse with blue flowers and a lacey, ruffled collar. Also

0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:08.720
<v Speaker 1>after Denise disappeared, the sister reported that that blouse was

0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:13.120
<v Speaker 1>missing from Denise's closet. Denise's sister said she hadn't told

0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:17.560
<v Speaker 1>police about the missing blouse until after Tommy and Carl confessed.

0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:22.360
<v Speaker 3>Going into trial, the police and prosecutors have two confessions

0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:25.920
<v Speaker 3>that are at odds with the objectively noble facts of

0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:31.360
<v Speaker 3>the crime. There's no corroboration of this confession and it's

0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:36.359
<v Speaker 3>filled with errors, But the police have one fact that

0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:40.480
<v Speaker 3>is the anchor of their case. The defense counsel had

0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:46.120
<v Speaker 3>no explanation for why both Tommy and Carl independently had

0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:50.199
<v Speaker 3>described Denise's missing blouse the same way.

0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:54.040
<v Speaker 1>That anchor ended up taking both Tommy and Carl down.

0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:58.480
<v Speaker 1>On day thirteen of the trial, the jury returned a verdict.

0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:03.720
<v Speaker 1>Both men were guilt of murdering Denise Harroway. Shortly afterwards,

0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:07.399
<v Speaker 1>the judge sentenced Tommy Ward and Carl Fontana to death.

0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:11.439
<v Speaker 4>The district attorney got a conviction on his boys because

0:22:11.520 --> 0:22:15.040
<v Speaker 4>the description of the shirt that supposedly no one knew

0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:18.679
<v Speaker 4>at the time of their confessions. I knew that Tommy

0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:22.440
<v Speaker 4>and Carl was innocent, but having tom and Carl both

0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:25.679
<v Speaker 4>to say something about that shirt that was a pretty

0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:26.800
<v Speaker 4>hard thing to get passed.

0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:30.280
<v Speaker 3>These men were sentenced to death on the basis of

0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:35.119
<v Speaker 3>a single fact, a description of a blouse. Tommy and

0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:38.000
<v Speaker 3>Carr were able to lead police to evidence that they

0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:42.080
<v Speaker 3>didn't already have. And these are the kinds of facts

0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:45.040
<v Speaker 3>that you and I look at when we assess the

0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:49.080
<v Speaker 3>reliability of a confession, Laura. And if police don't know

0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:53.040
<v Speaker 3>information and the suspect leads them to it, that's a

0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:56.359
<v Speaker 3>red flag for a reliable confession.

0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:02.040
<v Speaker 1>How could tom and Carl have been wrong about so

0:23:02.160 --> 0:23:06.400
<v Speaker 1>many facts yet right about this fact despite it all,

0:23:06.480 --> 0:23:09.840
<v Speaker 1>could they possibly be guilty? It's sure look that way.

0:23:10.080 --> 0:23:13.720
<v Speaker 1>At least at first, decades would pass before we found

0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:17.080
<v Speaker 1>out the truth. There's so much more to this case,

0:23:17.359 --> 0:23:20.280
<v Speaker 1>more than we can tell you today. So join us

0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:23.600
<v Speaker 1>next week as we close our second season, we'll bring

0:23:23.640 --> 0:23:26.720
<v Speaker 1>you part two of the story of Tommy Ward and

0:23:26.800 --> 0:23:33.879
<v Speaker 1>Carl Fontaneau. Wrongful Conviction, False Confessions is a production of

0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:37.920
<v Speaker 1>Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number

0:23:37.920 --> 0:23:41.960
<v Speaker 1>one Special thanks to our executive producers Jason Flamm and

0:23:42.040 --> 0:23:45.760
<v Speaker 1>Kevin Wardis. Our production team is headed by senior producer

0:23:45.800 --> 0:23:49.600
<v Speaker 1>A Pope, along with producers Joshi Hammer and Jess Shane.

0:23:49.720 --> 0:23:52.920
<v Speaker 1>Our show is mixed by Genie Montalvo. John Colbert is

0:23:52.960 --> 0:23:56.880
<v Speaker 1>our intrepid intern. Our music was composed by Jay Ralph.

0:23:57.080 --> 0:24:00.280
<v Speaker 1>You can follow me on Instagram or Twitter at Laura

0:24:00.280 --> 0:24:01.960
<v Speaker 1>and I Writer, and you can follow me.

0:24:01.960 --> 0:24:04.080
<v Speaker 3>On Twitter at Sdrizzen.

0:24:04.480 --> 0:24:08.600
<v Speaker 1>For more information on the show, visit wrongfulconvictionpodcast dot com.

0:24:08.960 --> 0:24:12.320
<v Speaker 1>Be sure to follow the show on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

0:24:12.880 --> 0:24:17.240
<v Speaker 1>on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at

0:24:17.320 --> 0:24:18.160
<v Speaker 1>wrong Conviction