1 00:00:01,639 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to wrongful conviction, False Confessions. I'm Laura and I 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: writer and I'm Steve Drecy. In nineteen eighty four, a 3 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: woman from Ada, Oklahoma went missing. A few months later, 4 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: a man named Tommy Ward told police that he'd had 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 1: a bad dream about her murder. Incredibly, the police took 6 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: that dream and turned it into a false confession. Tommy 7 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: Ward's story has fascinated the world. In two thousand and six, 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: the author John Grisham wrote a book about Tommy and 9 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: his co defendant, Carl Fontaneau. John's career as a writer 10 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: was changed by Tommy and Carl's case, but he's not 11 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: the only one who's been moved by it. A few 12 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 1: years ago, their story was made into a Netflix Global 13 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:47,279 Speaker 1: series called The Innocent Man. Now the whole world has 14 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 1: been moved too. It's our honor to be part of 15 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: the fight to exonerate Tommy Ward and Carl Fonteneau. Here's 16 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: hoping we can deliver a wake up call in this 17 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: nightmare of a case. 18 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 2: I'm John Grisham, author of a number of legal thrillers 19 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 2: and one work of nonfiction. About fifteen years ago, I 20 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 2: found myself in Ada, Oklahoma doing the research for a 21 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:26,199 Speaker 2: nonfiction book that was eventually titled The Innocent Man. It's 22 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 2: just a truly fascinating case because there were no clues, 23 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 2: there were no witnesses, there was no body, there was 24 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 2: no corpse, there was no murder weapon, there was nothing 25 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 2: for Tommy Willard confessed to the crime, and from that 26 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 2: moment on he was a guilty man. The judge allowed 27 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,479 Speaker 2: this case to go forward without a body. Even on 28 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 2: my most creative days, I'm not sure I could create 29 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 2: stuff like this. Once I started researching Tommy's case Carl's case, 30 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 2: I realized that there are thousands of innocent people in prison, 31 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 2: and realized that before At that point I moved away, 32 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 2: for the most part, from suspense intrigue thrillers to something 33 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 2: still similar, but much more issue driven capital punishment, wrong 34 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 2: for confiction, mass incarceration, the issues I care about in 35 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 2: the criminal justice system and the injustices that we tolerate. 36 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 2: When we could fix this stuff if we had the 37 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 2: will to do it. So, the Tommy Willard Carl Fontina 38 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 2: case had a profound impact on me as a writer. 39 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: You know, Steve John Christian's right in this case, the 40 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,959 Speaker 1: truth really is stranger than fiction. This is one of 41 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: the most bizarre kinds of false confessions you can imagine. 42 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 3: This case is fascinating because it is about a dream 43 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 3: that is converted by police officers into a confession. Cases 44 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 3: like this are extremely rare. 45 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: Right, I mean, how many dream cases do you know about? 46 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 3: I've studied hundreds of false confessions and maybe there's a 47 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 3: dozen of them. 48 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: To our listeners. If you haven't heard this story, get ready. 49 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: It's an incredible one. If you have read John Grisham's 50 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: book or seen the Netflix series, we have some new 51 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: developments to share with you. 52 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 3: Because attorneys at the Center on Wrongful Convictions, the organization 53 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 3: You and I Codirect, have uncovered new information that makes 54 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 3: it clear that Tommy Ward is innocent, but. 55 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: He's still in prison. He's been there for thirty five years. 56 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:28,519 Speaker 1: He needs to come home now, right now. Tommy's story 57 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,959 Speaker 1: starts in the town of Aida, a rural Oklahoma community 58 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: of about seventeen thousand people. It's a Bible belt town 59 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: where the churches are full but the factories are empty. 60 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: In Aida, poverty can sometimes make justice seem like a 61 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:48,119 Speaker 1: faraway dream. In nineteen eighty four, Denise Harroway was one 62 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: of Ada's seventeen thousand people. Denise was twenty four years old, 63 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: a petite, blonde woman who'd recently gotten married. She was 64 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: enrolled in college and helped pay tuition by working the 65 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: evening shift by herself at mcinally's convenience store. But when 66 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: customers walked into mcinally's at eight fifty pm on April 67 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: twenty eighth, they found an open cash register and no 68 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: attendant in sight. Denise had vanished. There'd be no sign 69 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: of her for a year and a half. Ada police 70 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: started investigating Denise's disappearance, and right away they suspected foul play. 71 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 1: A customer who'd been at mcinally's earlier that evening told 72 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: police he'd seen Denise leave the store with a strange 73 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: man who drove her away in a pickup truck. Police 74 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: also spoke to a female clerk at a different nearby 75 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: convenience store. She reported that a few hours before Denise disappeared, 76 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: two men came into her store. They were rowdy, she said, 77 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 1: and kept buying alcohol. They made her nervous. She gave 78 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: the cops some rough descriptions, and a police artist made 79 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 1: two composite sketches. In terms of evidence that was it. 80 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: No one knew what happened to Denise. There was no body, 81 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: no sightings, no nothing. Police showed the composite sketches on 82 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 1: TV and asked for the public's help. Dozens of tips 83 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: were phoned in. A few callers thought that the sketches 84 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: looked a little bit like a twenty four year old 85 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 1: Ada man named Tommy Ward. 86 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 3: Now. 87 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: The Ward family was poor. They lived on Ada's South Side, 88 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: in the part of town that everyone knew was on 89 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: the wrong side of the tracks. Growing up, there were 90 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: eight kids in the house. Tommy was number seven. Everyone 91 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: children included was expected to pitch in to keep the 92 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: lights on and the rent paid. The older kids would work, 93 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: the younger kids would spend hot Oklahoma summers walking along 94 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: the highway searching for empty beer cans that they could 95 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: turn in for a five cent deposit. The Wards were 96 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: a law abiding family. When Tommy was a teenager, he'd 97 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 1: been arrested a few times for petty crimes like public drunkenness, 98 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: but nothing serious. The idea of him suddenly kidnapping Denise 99 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: Haraway was pretty crazy. Despite this, police brought Tommy in 100 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: for questioning just a few days after Denise's disappearance. Tommy 101 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: told them he had nothing to do with Denise. In fact, 102 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: he said, on the night she disappeared, he was at 103 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,559 Speaker 1: a keg party out of town, twenty five miles away. 104 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: Police released Tommy and tracked down some other partygoers. Several 105 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: of them confirmed Tommy's alibi, but police also caught wind 106 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 1: of a rumor that had been spreading around town. Tommy 107 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 1: supposedly told others at the party that he'd done something terrible. 108 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: That one word was apparently enough to make the cops 109 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: think that Tommy had killed Denise. They bring Tommy back 110 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: to the station months later, on October eighteenth, nineteen eighty four, 111 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: for what would become nine hours of interrogation. Who killed 112 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: that girl? Did you kill her? You thought she was pretty, 113 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: didn't you? The questions come fast and furious, but Tommy 114 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: still denies having anything to do with Denise's disappearance. He 115 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: reminds his interrogators of his alibi, but they administer a polygraph. 116 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: They falsely tell Tommy that it proved he'd been lying. 117 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: That's when the interrogation turns nightmarish. Tommy tells the cops 118 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: that maybe he failed the polygraph because he was nervous. 119 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: In fact, he says knowing he was a suspect in 120 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: this case had upset him so much that he had 121 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: a bad dream. Tell us about your dream, the police say, 122 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: and Tommy does. In the dream, Tommy was out by 123 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: Ada's local power plants, sitting in a pickup truck with 124 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: three people he didn't know, two men and a woman. 125 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: One of the men tried to kiss the woman and 126 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: Tommy told him to back off. Then Tommy said he 127 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: wanted to go home. You're already home, the man answered. Suddenly, 128 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: Tommy was standing at his kitchen sink trying to scrub 129 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: a dark liquid off his hands. The cops pounce your dream, 130 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: They say, matches the facts of the case. There's a 131 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: pickup truck in your dream, and we believe Denise was 132 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: kidnapped in a pickup truck. It doesn't make sense to 133 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: say this was just a dream, they say. You know 134 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: what does make sense, you and these other two men 135 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: killing Denise. So where did the story in Tommy's dream 136 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: come from? Turns out, a few days before this nine 137 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: hour interrogation, police had briefly talked to. 138 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 3: Tommy, and during that questioning, the police officers said to Tommy, 139 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 3: use your imagination for just a moment. This girl was 140 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 3: taken out of a grocery store at night. Two guys 141 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 3: come in and got her, and they'd gotten a pickup 142 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 3: and they drove away a beautiful girl like that. Maybe 143 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 3: they raped her before they killed her. That is a 144 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 3: direct quote from these detectives. The police officers had planted 145 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 3: the core ideas of this crime in Tommy's mind, including 146 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 3: the pickup truck, which remembers a detail that a witness 147 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 3: had already told them about, and Tommy began to have 148 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 3: nightmares about the story the police told him. 149 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: The interrogation continues for hours. Police tell Tommy he'll get 150 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: the death penalty if he doesn't confess to killing Denise. Eventually, 151 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: Tommy caves. He starts changing his dream to include what 152 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: the police tell him. In his dream, he says he 153 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 1: did recognize the other guys. They were two eight of 154 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: men named Carl Fontaneau and Odell Titsworth. He dreamed that 155 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: they'd robbed mcinelli's together, that they'd kidnapped Denise and raped 156 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: her in a pickup truck. They stabbed her in the 157 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: dream too, he says, and left her body in a 158 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,199 Speaker 1: culvert by the power plant. After nine hours of this, 159 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: police bring in a video camera. According to Tommy, they say, 160 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: time to cut the dream. Bullshit, This wasn't something you dreamed, 161 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 1: It was something you did. 162 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 2: Tommy, have the power plant? Where nay share webs? 163 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 4: Why did you go to the para plant? It's pulled over. 164 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: Tommy finds himself repeating the whole story on camera, not 165 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: as a dream but as cold hard reality. 166 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 2: It was the first person in the store. Did he 167 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 2: have any guy weapons? 168 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 3: They told me that he was going to kill her. 169 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 4: That's where got out to bar. 170 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:31,839 Speaker 2: You understand how serious this investigation is. 171 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: Incredibly, the police have transformed Tommy's dream into a murder confession. 172 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 3: Let's talk a little bit about dream statements. You know, 173 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 3: there comes a point in every interrogation where the police 174 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 3: officers have tried to get the suspect to confess, and 175 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 3: the suspect just says, well, I have no memory of 176 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 3: committing this crime, or I can't help you. I wasn't there. 177 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 3: And then either the police officers suggest to the suspect, 178 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 3: have you had any dreams about this case? Or the 179 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 3: suspect will suggest on his own accord, you know I 180 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 3: have had some dreams about this, and what that does 181 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 3: is it gives police officers something to exploit. It allows 182 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 3: the conversation to continue, and the police officers end up 183 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 3: converting what was a dream into a confession. 184 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: During Tommy's videotaped statement, the only lingering reference to any 185 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: of this being a dream comes at the very end. 186 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: Is there anything else you want to add? Police ask him. 187 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: I thought it was just a dream, Tommy quietly says. 188 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 3: He always thought that the police officers would recognize this 189 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 3: is not reality. Go out, investigate the case, and you're 190 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 3: going to find out that this is all a bunch 191 00:11:59,200 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 3: of horseship. 192 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:04,439 Speaker 1: Based on his so called confession, Tommy Ward found himself 193 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: in jail, charged with capital murder, and the investigation that's 194 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,959 Speaker 1: to come, well, horseshit is exactly the right word. 195 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 4: I was stationed on an aircraft current when my sister 196 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 4: called and started telling me that they got Tommy for this. 197 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 5: It was not a good day. 198 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: That's Melvin Ward, one of Tommy's older brothers. He was 199 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: in the service when he found out that Tommy had 200 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 1: been arrested, and he flew back to Ada right away. 201 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 5: I did not believe it. 202 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 4: I thought, well, you know, He's going to get awful 203 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,199 Speaker 4: this because I know he didn't do it. 204 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 5: It's not Tomy's character to do something like this. He 205 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 5: was not a bad kid. He'd never heard anybody. 206 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 4: He'd stayed out of trouble other than a few public drunks. 207 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 4: Tommy would have been the kind of person that if 208 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 4: somebody was attacking this lady, he would have been there 209 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 4: to protect her. 210 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 5: That's Tommy. 211 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 4: Tommy did nothing for them to go after him like 212 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 4: they did, other than we living on an other side's track. 213 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 4: We was not in the proper society at the time. 214 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 4: They believed that Tommy was guilty and they was going 215 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 4: to pull no stops to get into confess, and that's 216 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 4: not proper police work at all. 217 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: Tommy wasn't the only person from the wrong side of 218 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: the tracks who got ensnared in this case. Within hours, 219 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 1: police arrest Tommy's dream accomplices, Carl Fontano and Odell Titsworth 220 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 1: and questioned them both. Carl was twenty years old, a 221 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:44,079 Speaker 1: friend of Tommy's who was seriously intellectually disabled and pretty 222 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: much alone in the world. 223 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 4: Carl was a nice guy. I know my mom liked him, 224 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 4: and my mom bless her heart. She was a good 225 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 4: judge character. At the time, she was working at one 226 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 4: of the convenience stores down there in Ada, and the 227 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 4: kid would come in and he didn't have much of 228 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 4: the family gave him a sandwich from the store every 229 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 4: now and then. And I think Tommy met Carl by 230 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 4: he was sleeping on my sister's front porch. Tommy kind 231 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 4: of took Carl on his wing and they become friends. 232 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: To understand how Carl's interrogation went down, you need to 233 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: know that a few months earlier, Carl had witnessed his 234 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: own mother's death. The two of them had been driving 235 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: on the highway when their car broke down. Carl's mom 236 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: got out and headed for a nearby restaurant to call 237 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: for help, but as she was crossing the highway, she 238 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: was hit and killed by another car. Carl felt terrible guilt. 239 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: He blamed himself for not being the one who'd gone 240 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: for help. It was that sense of guilt, along with 241 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: his disability, that police used to manipulate Carl during his interrogation. 242 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: The police suggested that Carl should make amends for his 243 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: mom's death by saying he was involved in Denise's death. 244 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 3: Can you imagine the trauma have been experiencing. I mean, 245 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 3: he saw his mother die. The police officers used that 246 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 3: prior traumatic event to help break down Carl into accepting 247 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 3: responsibility for Denise's death, and he caved much sooner than 248 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 3: Tommy did. 249 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: Just like with Tommy, police took a videotaped statement from Carl. 250 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: In it, he agreed that he helped Odell Titsworth and 251 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: Tommy Ward rape and stab Denise. 252 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 4: Carl, let me ask you this, at any point in time, 253 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 4: did you stab her? 254 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 3: No? I did not, nor did Tommy. Odell done all 255 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 3: this day right there? 256 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 2: Did Joe try to stop him from stander? 257 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 3: No? 258 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: Carl even said they burned her body afterwards? 259 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 2: Who spread the Gasdell? He poured all the gas on 260 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 2: her hair side, and we threw the match on her 261 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 2: and walked out, And then I asked, just burn up 262 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:57,359 Speaker 2: on the inside. 263 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: Based on this confession, Carl was charged with Denise's death, 264 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: right alongside Tommy. 265 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 5: Knowing that Tommy was innocent. That made me know that 266 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 5: Carl was innocent. 267 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 4: Tommy, it took him almost nine hours to break him down, 268 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 4: and Carl he was a little bit more acceptible to 269 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 4: their interrogation. 270 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 5: I think it higher in forty five minutes. 271 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: But the supposed third guy, Odell Titsworth, well, he's another story. 272 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: Odell was a four time convicted felon with experience in 273 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: the interrogation room. When police questioned him about Denise, he 274 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: doesn't budge an inch. I don't care what Ward and 275 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: Fontineau say. He insists I had nothing to do with 276 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: Denise's disappearance. Now Odell is thrown in jail anyway, but 277 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: pretty soon it becomes clear that he's got a great alibi. 278 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: Two days before Denise's disappearance, Odell had an altercation with 279 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: the police and they'd broken his arm badly. On the 280 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: night Denise disappeared, Odell Titsworth was laid up with a 281 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: spiral fracture. Struggle with a grown woman, hold her down 282 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: and rape her, stab her. It was physically impossible. Odell 283 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: was cleared. 284 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 4: This is one point I've always trying to wrap around 285 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 4: people's head. If they were not being fed information, how 286 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 4: did both them boys come up with a totally innocent 287 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 4: man's name. 288 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 5: He can't happen, see what I'm saying. 289 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: While Odell Titsworth got to go home, Tommy and Carl 290 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: weren't so lucky. Prosecutors pressed forward with cases against Tommy 291 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,199 Speaker 1: and Carl, even though their confessions turned out to be 292 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: wildly different. The confessions didn't agree on who raped Denise, 293 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: where she was stabbed, or when she died, And when 294 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 1: it came to the big question, where was Denise, the 295 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: confessions disagreed there too. Remember Tommy said they'd left her 296 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 1: body in a culvert near the power plant, but Carl 297 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,679 Speaker 1: said they'd burned Denise's body in an abandoned house, and 298 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: then they burned the house down too. The authorities checked 299 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,880 Speaker 1: out both stories, but they found no sign of Denise 300 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: in either the culvert or the abandoned house. In fact, 301 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: Carl's abandoned house actually burned down ten months before Denise disappeared. 302 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: Their confessions just didn't match reality. In a last ditch 303 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: effort to get Carl to clean up his story, police 304 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: try something pretty outrageous. 305 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 3: So Carl is sitting in jail, he's just confessed to 306 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 3: this crime, and the police officers go to a local 307 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 3: university and gather a bunch of bones. 308 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 1: From the science lab human bones. 309 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,959 Speaker 3: And they bring this bag of bones into the jail 310 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 3: and they say, we found Denise Harway's skull where you 311 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,239 Speaker 3: said it was. But we can't find the rest of 312 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 3: her body. And Carl can't answer the question. He says, 313 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 3: I wish I could help, but I don't know where 314 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 3: her body is. 315 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 1: Carl's terrified. He can't tell him a thing. I mean, 316 00:18:58,240 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: what the fuck is this? 317 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 3: I've never seen I've seen this before, Laura, this is 318 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 3: just beyond the pale. 319 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: Carl and Tommy were tried together on September twenty fourth, 320 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five. At trial, prosecutors called a mcinally's customer 321 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: named James Moyer. Moyer testified that he'd seen someone who 322 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: looked like Tommy Ward in the store an hour before 323 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 1: Denise disappeared. That's pretty thin evidence, but the prosecutors had more. 324 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: As the centerpiece of the trial, they played Tommy and 325 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: Carl's confession tapes for the jury. Prosecutors conceded that sure, 326 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: Tommy and Carl got a lot of things wrong, Sure 327 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: their confessions were false when it came to Odell's involvement, 328 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: and sure the facts that they seemed to get right, 329 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: like the pickup truck, had been fed to them by 330 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: their interrogators. But set all that aside. Prosecutors said, we've 331 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: got proof. They said that Tommy and Carl's confessions are reliable, 332 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: a real ace in the hole. So what was that proof? 333 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: Prosecutors argued that Tommy and Carl's confessions could be trusted 334 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 1: because they both accurately described what Denise was wearing the 335 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: night she disappeared. During Tommy's confession, he said Denise was 336 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: wearing a button up blouse with little blue roses on 337 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: it and lace on the collar and sleeves. Similarly, Carl 338 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,919 Speaker 1: had said she was wearing a button up blouse with 339 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 1: ruffles on the collar and elastic on the sleeves. Now, 340 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 1: prosecutors said, at the time of the confessions, the police 341 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: had no idea what Denise had been wearing, so the 342 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: interrogators couldn't have fed details about the blouse to Tommy 343 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: and Carl. The only explanation for Tommy and Carl's matching 344 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 1: stories was that they had both actually been with Denise 345 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: that night. To really clinch the case, Denise's sister took 346 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: the stand and revealed that Denise did to own a 347 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: blouse with blue flowers and a lacey, ruffled collar. Also 348 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: after Denise disappeared, the sister reported that that blouse was 349 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 1: missing from Denise's closet. Denise's sister said she hadn't told 350 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: police about the missing blouse until after Tommy and Carl confessed. 351 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:22,360 Speaker 3: Going into trial, the police and prosecutors have two confessions 352 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 3: that are at odds with the objectively noble facts of 353 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:31,360 Speaker 3: the crime. There's no corroboration of this confession and it's 354 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 3: filled with errors, But the police have one fact that 355 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 3: is the anchor of their case. The defense counsel had 356 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 3: no explanation for why both Tommy and Carl independently had 357 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:50,199 Speaker 3: described Denise's missing blouse the same way. 358 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: That anchor ended up taking both Tommy and Carl down. 359 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: On day thirteen of the trial, the jury returned a verdict. 360 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: Both men were guilt of murdering Denise Harroway. Shortly afterwards, 361 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 1: the judge sentenced Tommy Ward and Carl Fontana to death. 362 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,439 Speaker 4: The district attorney got a conviction on his boys because 363 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 4: the description of the shirt that supposedly no one knew 364 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,679 Speaker 4: at the time of their confessions. I knew that Tommy 365 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 4: and Carl was innocent, but having tom and Carl both 366 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 4: to say something about that shirt that was a pretty 367 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 4: hard thing to get passed. 368 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 3: These men were sentenced to death on the basis of 369 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 3: a single fact, a description of a blouse. Tommy and 370 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 3: Carr were able to lead police to evidence that they 371 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 3: didn't already have. And these are the kinds of facts 372 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 3: that you and I look at when we assess the 373 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 3: reliability of a confession, Laura. And if police don't know 374 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 3: information and the suspect leads them to it, that's a 375 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 3: red flag for a reliable confession. 376 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: How could tom and Carl have been wrong about so 377 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: many facts yet right about this fact despite it all, 378 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: could they possibly be guilty? It's sure look that way. 379 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 1: At least at first, decades would pass before we found 380 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: out the truth. There's so much more to this case, 381 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: more than we can tell you today. So join us 382 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: next week as we close our second season, we'll bring 383 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: you part two of the story of Tommy Ward and 384 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: Carl Fontaneau. Wrongful Conviction, False Confessions is a production of 385 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 1: Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number 386 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 1: one Special thanks to our executive producers Jason Flamm and 387 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: Kevin Wardis. Our production team is headed by senior producer 388 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: A Pope, along with producers Joshi Hammer and Jess Shane. 389 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 1: Our show is mixed by Genie Montalvo. John Colbert is 390 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 1: our intrepid intern. Our music was composed by Jay Ralph. 391 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: You can follow me on Instagram or Twitter at Laura 392 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: and I Writer, and you can follow me. 393 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 3: On Twitter at Sdrizzen. 394 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: For more information on the show, visit wrongfulconvictionpodcast dot com. 395 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow the show on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, 396 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at 397 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:18,160 Speaker 1: wrong Conviction