1 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: Buddy Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. The most precious memories. 2 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 2: That I have. 3 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 1: Probably involved my grandmother's kitchen. I can still see it 4 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: in my mind's eye. My grandmother and grandfather were not 5 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: wealthy people. As a matter of fact, they would probably 6 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: be classified as lower middle class today. They lived in 7 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: a little, old ramshackled house. 8 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 2: It was. 9 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: Windy in the house. You could hear the wind coming in. 10 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: It was hot in the summertime, cold in the wintertime. 11 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: But the one thing that my grandmother had was a 12 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: fabulous kitchen. For a house like this, big stove, big oven. 13 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: There was always something being prepared in that house. And 14 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: you know, even when it was cold in the wintertime, 15 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: you could always seek out warmth and comfort in that kitchen. 16 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 1: There were even times I remember she would leave the 17 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: oven door open with the oven going and you could 18 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: feel the heat off of it. I still have visions 19 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: of my grandfather lighting his camel cigarettes off of the stovetop. 20 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: But there was a certain amount of joy the smells 21 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: that came out of that kitchen. The food was incredible. 22 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: Nobody will ever cook like my grandmother. I'll argue that 23 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: point till the day I die. But so much of 24 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: our life is tied up in food, in nourishment, in 25 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: the comfort that comes along not just from the taking 26 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: on of the food, but I think also those that 27 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: love us, their love is transmitted through that food the 28 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: care that goes into it. And today on body Bags, 29 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about a young man who was 30 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 1: totally and completely dependent upon a love that did not exist, 31 00:02:52,800 --> 00:03:00,040 Speaker 1: and nourishment that existed but was denied. We're going to 32 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: talk about the starvation death of a fifteen year old boy. 33 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Bags. Don't 34 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: know about you, Dave, but I think for me, my 35 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: grandma's recipe for fried chicken was probably the best I've 36 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 1: ever encountered. I still have memories of seeing her place 37 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: chicken parts into brown paper bags with gold metal flour 38 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: with the right combination of Louisiana spices and shaking this 39 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: bag up every day it seemed like we had fried 40 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: chicken or something like that, and smell that came from 41 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: it and the tape. It was never dry, it was 42 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: always moist and juicy, and the crust was perfect. I 43 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: don't know if you have a memory like that from childhood, 44 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: I certainly do. 45 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 3: Even I have no memories of anything right now, I'm starving, salivating. 46 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 3: That's you've done Pole Love's Dog. You mentioned food, I salivate. 47 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. 48 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 3: I take me to a buffet and I will eat 49 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 3: until they have to roll me to the juicing room 50 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 3: at Wonka's factory. 51 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 2: You know. 52 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Yeah, I can identify with that. 53 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 2: So it's like a huge deal, and. 54 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 1: It certainly is. And we get comfort from it, don't we. 55 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: I mean I think we do. Yeah, I think we do. 56 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 3: You and I could see here and share good fun 57 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 3: memories of growing up and food and things like that 58 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 3: to avoid talking about this horrible story. What happened to 59 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 3: fifteen year old Timothy Ferguson. Fifteen year old Timothy Ferguson 60 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 3: was murdered by his mother by starving him, and by 61 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 3: the way, not just starving hypothermia. She would take her 62 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 3: own flesh and blood Timothy Ferguson. The boy weighed sixty 63 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 3: five pounds at fifteen years old, and the only thing 64 00:04:57,960 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 3: he had to eat was a piece of bread and 65 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 3: hot sauce, and then she would stick them in an 66 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 3: ice bath. Now, if that's not the type of torture, 67 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 3: that deserves the worst punishment we can come up with. 68 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 2: I don't know what it is. 69 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: Let me add one element to that, because you mentioned 70 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 1: being denied food, which is all part and parcel first 71 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 1: off of malnutrition that ultimately starvation. There's a difference between 72 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: those two things, and we'll explore them. But you know, Dave, 73 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: there was another element to it. Can we imagine food 74 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: being used as in many times and this is really 75 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: unhealthy as a reward and we get comfort from it, 76 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 1: many of us, we take it to an extreme. I 77 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 1: know I have. But can you imagine food being used 78 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: actively as a punishment? And what I mean by that 79 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: is taking an element of something that is marketed as 80 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: being ingestible, but yet you an individual, would derive so 81 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: much pain from that. And what I'm talking about is 82 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: the torture of not just an ice bath or deprivation 83 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 1: of access to food. I'm talking about actually using the 84 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 1: ultimate hot sauce in order to subject him to in 85 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: order to elicit pain from him. So you've got this 86 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: weird thing that's working here in this environment where you've 87 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: got a kid who, by the way, has some developmental issues. 88 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 2: What do we know about that disability? 89 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 1: Well, what we do know is that he was apparently 90 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: completely and totally dependent upon her kindness. And I'm always 91 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 1: fascinated by cases. 92 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 2: Of abuse like this kindness. 93 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, well, whether or not she's going to choose 94 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: to give him kindness, and isn't that entry that's an 95 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: interesting thing to consider, the degree to which she is. 96 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 1: It's ill vinegar and sugar principle, where you fit you 97 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: feed somebody a steady diet of vinegar, and when they 98 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: just get a little taste of sugar, you think that 99 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: it's the entire world, you know, And that happens with 100 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: abusers lots of times, because they can do great harm 101 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: to individuals, and suddenly when an act of kindness is extended, 102 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: it seems like the individuals won the lottery. Suddenly they've 103 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: got the approval of this monster that they're having to 104 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: share a home with. And that's really what I mean 105 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: by kindness in this circumstance, because it's you have this 106 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: precious life that has been given to you that you 107 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: have charge over, but yet you're going to deny them 108 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: access to things that are basic. You know, we learned this, 109 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: I don't know what was it in freshman sociology class. 110 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: You know where you learn Maslow's hierarchy, you know, just 111 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: the basic you know, those basic things. I see you 112 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: smiling right now. 113 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I suffered those classes well too. 114 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: I did two. I think that that's really the one 115 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: thing that I retained out of there was Maslow's hierarchy 116 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: of needs. With this being said about the choices that 117 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: have been made in regards to Shanda vander Ark, those 118 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: choices that she made relative to her son, this fifteen 119 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: year old, it gave me pause from a mechanism standpoint 120 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: as a forensic scientist, to begin to think about. You know, 121 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: we talked about homicide all the time on the show. 122 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: You know, we talk about homicide more so than any 123 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: other manner of death, and there are two types out there. 124 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,559 Speaker 1: I think that you can have people that commit homicide, 125 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: which merely by definition is nothing more than it's different 126 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: than saying murder. It is death at the hand of another. 127 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: You're not assigning blame. That's the idea of the clinical 128 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,199 Speaker 1: nature of that term homicide, but death at the hand 129 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: of another. When you think about the types of homicides 130 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: that there are, I think, in a big category here 131 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: you have things that are it's almost like the old 132 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: idea of sense of omission versus sins of comission. When 133 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: you have a homicide, you can have an actual passive 134 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: type of homicide, which I think we're dealing with here. 135 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: You know, the mechanism that's being utilized is deprivation of 136 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: basic needs, and or you can have this active, this 137 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: active track that an individual can go down, and that's 138 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: any kind of trauma that may lead to someone's death, 139 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: like bludgeoning, stabbing. And that's not what happened here. When 140 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: Shanda vander Arc decided to keep her fifteen year old 141 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: son sequestered, locked away and literally in a house of horrors. 142 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: That term gets thrown around a lot in media, but 143 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: this was for this child, this fifteen year old child, 144 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: a house of horrors. When you begin to think about this, 145 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: this was probably the single most unmerciful way to bring 146 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:55,439 Speaker 1: about another human being's death. You have an expectation when 147 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: you have kids, when you see them through their normal 148 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: auration through life. You know, from the moment that they're 149 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: an infant till the time that you know no longer 150 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: your responsibility. You see this physical development that happens in them. 151 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: And I was looking back and doing a little research 152 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: and you know, with a fifteen year old boy, you 153 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: have an expectation that that kid is probably on the 154 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: low end going to be and a lot of its 155 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:33,359 Speaker 1: heights dependent nutritional issues. But under quote unquote normal circumstances, 156 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: you're going to have a child that the average weight 157 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: for a sixteen year old, fifteen year old, it's going 158 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: to be about one hundred and thirty three pounds. That 159 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: was certainly not the case with this kid. Timothy weighed 160 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: sixty one pounds at at his autopsy. That's how little 161 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 1: he weighed. And it's really fascinating to me that this 162 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 1: was allowed to go on for so long and that 163 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: she flew under the radar. And I think a lot 164 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: of it had to do with her legal background. She 165 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: fled from Oklahoma, wound up in Michigan, and she knew, 166 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: you know, how to kind of shuck and job with 167 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: the system and stay below the radar. And boy did 168 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: she ever. She really facilitated this home that they were in, 169 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: dwelling to meet her to meet her ends, which were 170 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: completely and totally evil. 171 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 3: I'm glad you pointed out that she knew how to 172 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 3: fly into the radar. If you've never been through the 173 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 3: homeschooling process. You don't know what it takes. It's not 174 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 3: as simple as sending a letter to the elementary or 175 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 3: high school or whatever and say I've decided to teach 176 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 3: my children at home. Leave me alone. That doesn't cut it, 177 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 3: because there are rules and regulations in every state is 178 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 3: a little bit different. She knew enough to fly under 179 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 3: the radar to keep her child in homeschool. I'm curious 180 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 3: as to her older son, Paul. He was nineteen when 181 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 3: this came to an end. But was he homeschool also 182 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,839 Speaker 3: or did he actually attend school. Timothy was fifteen when 183 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 3: he died. I mean, Paul is only four years older 184 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 3: than older. Yeah, so you've got a child who has 185 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 3: been abused for many years. He's not being abused by 186 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 3: just his mother. Paul is involved in this as well. 187 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 3: Whether he's doing it at the direction of his mother 188 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:30,839 Speaker 3: for fear for his life, or whether he enjoyed it 189 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 3: and was piling on don't know. 190 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: I think that once an individual is in a sequestered environment, 191 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 1: it's rife for abuse to take place. Look, I got 192 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: to tell you all my kids were homeschool quite successfully. 193 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, with my son, we had 194 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: to be adherent, and he went and was co taught 195 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 1: with a group of other homeschoolers and had exposure to many, 196 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: many things that we facilitated. But to the degree that 197 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: whoever driving the ship, it can be a glorious thing 198 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: or it can be an absolute horror show, which in 199 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: Timothy circumstances it turned out to be because you can 200 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 1: control what is going to occur. Listen, if you're if 201 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 1: you're in an environment, and this happens with abusers a lot. 202 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: It happens in many ways. If you're going to abuse 203 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: a child, the idea is that you want to keep 204 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: them out of sight because any physical changes that might 205 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: occur over the course of a year or maybe day 206 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: to day, if they're if they're being suffering from impact injuries. 207 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: For instance, what do you mean by impact injuries, Well, 208 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: if they're if they're being slapped around, punched, kicked. You 209 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: see this with people that are trying to essentially keep 210 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: the kids away from the rest of the public. They'll 211 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: even keep them away from immediate family members. That's one 212 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: of the reasons that abusers many times hospital shop as well, 213 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: which means that if a child is injured, they will 214 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: not go to the same treatment facility in order to 215 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: seek care for a child. Because if you put two 216 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: and two together, Uh, then by seeing the same clinician 217 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: every time, they're going to say, hey, there's something up here, 218 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: and they're going to report it. But this is a 219 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: completely different thing that we're dynamic. 220 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 3: Is it different that only one of the three children 221 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 3: seems to be the victim of his mother? 222 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: No, that happens with great frequency. Yeah, yeah, out one, 223 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: picking out one and using the others to help facilitate 224 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: these circumstances. Wow, And that's that's one of the things that. 225 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 2: That makes it worse. 226 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, it does, because you're you're looking for mercy hopefully 227 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: if you're the victim, they're they're holding out hope that 228 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: maybe one of their siblings will you know, ride in 229 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: and be the hero and help maybe give them some relief, 230 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: maybe get them some food. And here's the problem with 231 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: Timothy's case is that unlike you know, say, for instance, 232 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: he was sustaining impact injuries and he was still out 233 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: in public going that's something that you can kind of 234 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: guide the child along if you're the abuser, to keep 235 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: them under the radar with this. Once you start them 236 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: down this road. Of malnutrition and starvation day. There's no 237 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: hiding in this because suddenly you have a face that's 238 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: the cheeks are sunken, the eyes are sunken, they have 239 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: a pallor the color to their skin almost becomes ashen. 240 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: The skin actually changes in its texture. It becomes almost 241 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: like parchment paper. Many times it's easily torn and insulted 242 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: just by bumping into things. That's one of the consequences 243 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: of malnutrition, because with malnutrition comes dehydration, and so you've 244 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: got that working as well. 245 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 3: Can you tell what this has been going on for 246 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 3: a number of years or I'm just curious because Timothy 247 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 3: was fifty years old when he died. Was this something 248 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 3: that can was active in his life from birth or 249 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 3: was this something that just happened in the last two 250 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 3: or three years. We know she got in trouble in Oklahoma, 251 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 3: But was he living a normal life? I guess is 252 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 3: what I'm up to until he's ten and then from 253 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 3: the last five years of his life it went bad. 254 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 2: Is there any way to determine when the abuse began? 255 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I think that there is. And here's the 256 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: big component to this. It's a problem. It's something we 257 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: have to do in forensics a lot. These are called 258 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: retroactive investigations, where we go back with a child in particular, 259 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:39,120 Speaker 1: we will subpoena all of their medical records, even from 260 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: a very young age. And do you remember when your 261 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 1: kids were young, Dave, and you would go to the pediatrician. 262 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 1: I know that I got a lot of moms in 263 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: the audience right now and you remember this going to 264 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: the pediatrician. And even from the time that they're babies, 265 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: they begin to take measurements on the chouldren They'll do 266 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: what's referred to as a crown diameter, they'll do the 267 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: crown what's called the crown rump length, they'll do the 268 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: crown heal length. They'll measure the abdomen. This is when 269 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 1: they're little babies, just to see the developmental distribution of 270 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 1: the child, how the child is presenting. And as the 271 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: child goes matures, they get weighed, their height is taken. 272 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: So one of the keys here and one of the 273 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: things that can happen with malnutrition over a protracted period 274 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,679 Speaker 1: of time with a development with a child that's developing, 275 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: is if you deny basic needs like food in particular, 276 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: you're going to and this seems like something that comes 277 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 1: from another generation. But it's true. Their growth will be stunted. Okay, 278 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: you're going to stunt your growth if you don't eat. 279 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: You know, that's something that you would hear from my 280 00:18:52,600 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: grandmother's generation. They will not be on par with the 281 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: others in their group relative to how tall they are, 282 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: for instance. And you know weight can vary from person 283 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: to person, but when you're talking about a child that 284 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: weighs sixty one pounds when he died, I think that 285 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: our big takeaway here is that this is something that 286 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 1: had been going on for a protracted period of time. 287 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: I don't think that this child had ever been in 288 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: a healthy environment. Starvation is not something that just occurs overnight. 289 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:33,239 Speaker 1: It's something that is a long term event where the 290 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: individual that is perpetrating this and trust me, this was 291 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 1: perpetrated on Timothy. This is something that the perpetrator has 292 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: to take an active view of and they have to 293 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 1: actively engage in it. And what they're engaging in is 294 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: denial of those basic means that he had as human being. 295 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: It's a tough thing when you have kids that have 296 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 1: special needs and they require a bit more care. Perhaps 297 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: certainly if you're the caretaker. You have to extend a 298 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: lot of mercy in those circumstances, and it can be very, 299 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 1: very frustrating. 300 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 3: The defense trying to come up with a reason for 301 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 3: why Shanda vander Art did these things to her, and 302 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 3: she claims to have no memory of most of it, 303 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 3: by the way, which is so convenient for her. But 304 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 3: they claim that it really got bad for her when 305 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,360 Speaker 3: her husband suffered a stroke. He was already a wheelchair 306 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 3: bound and then he had a stroke. He the husband 307 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 3: ended up moving in with his parents. Now, when I 308 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 3: was first looking at this, it made it sound like 309 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 3: the whole family moved in with her with his parents. 310 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 2: That's not it. 311 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 3: She didn't have to take care of her husband in 312 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 3: a wheelchair with his other issues. 313 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 2: His parents did. Jesus. 314 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 3: That is the defense. Oh, I was just overburdened with 315 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 3: my husband. She claimed PTSD from him having a stroke. 316 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 3: They gave her the full mental exam and came back 317 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 3: with she knew exactly what she was doing when she 318 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 3: did it. When it happened, she was in control of 319 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 3: her thoughts and ideas. She's not crazy. Put her on trial, 320 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 3: you know, just to clear it up, so to finish 321 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 3: up Timothy Ferguson autistic with some speech and motor impairment. 322 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, well crimea river is what I would have to 323 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: say to her and to her defense team. The whole 324 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: idea of blocking memories and all this sort of stuff. Well, 325 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: how much do you have blocked out? Because this is 326 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: a daily exercise, Dave, Let me just say this, this 327 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 1: process that Timothy is going through, there's a term that 328 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: we use. If you ever hear the word or the 329 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: prefix auto, auto means self. And so in Timothy's case, 330 00:21:55,000 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: he was going through a condition which is and autophogy 331 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 1: is I'll just put it to you this way. It 332 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: is the digestion, the digestion of your own tissues by 333 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:19,719 Speaker 1: your body. Because what had happened any fat stores that 334 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 1: this child may have had on board. We carry around 335 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: a healthy amount of fat in our body. There's an 336 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: obsession with people wanting to get down to low percentages. 337 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 2: With body weight. 338 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: Fat is actually good for us because it is an 339 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 1: energy store. And when you are not replenishing that energy 340 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: store that goes to long term, long term fuel for 341 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 1: your body, then your body is craving to feed itself. 342 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 1: And what happens is if this child Timothy was already 343 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: compromised from the perspective of his motor impairment that he had, 344 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: which means that he could probably not amulate real well, 345 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: couldn't move perhaps very well, couldn't take care of basic 346 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,439 Speaker 1: necessities like go to the bathroom, those sorts of things. 347 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: And you put this autophogy in the mix. He's already 348 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: compromised where his muscles themselves are already weakened, greatly weakened 349 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: by virtue of this condition that he has, and then 350 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: you have his body's need to try to survive, so 351 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: it starts eating. It's on tissue. My god, this is 352 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: a perfect storm for this child to literally waste away. 353 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: When the images of Timothy are so striking that the 354 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 1: court was exposed to in this case because one of 355 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 1: the things that you really notice, and I urge anybody 356 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: that has not seen these images if you go back 357 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 1: to you can see them to a certain degree with 358 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 1: Holocaust survivors. But Matthew Brady, from a Civil War era 359 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: took these incredible images of these guys that escaped the 360 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: Andersonville prison camp outside of America's Georgia and Dave. One 361 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: of the things that really stands out regarding these guys 362 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 1: is how pronounced their knee joints, are, their pelvises, their ribs, 363 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: and you can he took these images nude. They have 364 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: cloth over their private area, but they took these images 365 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: and it's so striking you can you can almost visualize death. 366 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 1: And I find it really interesting that, you know, death, 367 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: death is commonly portrayed in literature as grim reaper, right, 368 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: you know, skeleton, and it's almost like death is sitting 369 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: on the shoulder of these people, uh, the entire time. 370 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,360 Speaker 1: And that's what was going on with Timothy. 371 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 3: Well, tell me about what he was eating. What kind 372 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 3: of food was he getting? 373 00:24:57,880 --> 00:24:58,880 Speaker 2: Joe, have you. 374 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 1: Heard the old term the only thing you're going to 375 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: get is bread and water. Yeah, he would occasionally get 376 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: water and then he would get bread. And the problem 377 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: with with bread is bread is loaded carbohydrates, and it 378 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 1: is a short term solution to nutrition, all right, you 379 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 1: burn those those carbs up really really quickly. But for 380 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: long term sustainability, and what we're talking about is the 381 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: proper functioning of your organs. One of the major problems 382 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: that you have with malnourishment is that people will develop 383 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: severe cardiac problems and a lot of that goes back to, well, 384 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: everything goes back to the absence of sustainability, whether it 385 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: be vitamin uptake or whether it be something that has 386 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 1: more fat in it that is going to give you 387 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: long term sustainability. If you give somebody a slice of bread, 388 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: and that is a real thing where you see see 389 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: these examples of people that have lived on bread and 390 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: water alone, and they just they're completely diminished. That's what 391 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: he was being subjected to. But Dave, here's the thing. 392 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: This child, this handicapped child who was at the mercy 393 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 1: of his mother and his brother. By the way, not 394 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: only was he denied anything of real substance to sustain 395 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 1: himself on, he was also if you can imagine this 396 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: being tortured with hot sauce. Now just let that sink 397 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: in just for a second. So your body is screaming, 398 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 1: feed me, feed me, feed me. And everything you see 399 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: before you that is edible in some things that aren't. 400 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: I've had I've had children that were living off of 401 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: dirty diapers in cases before eating mop strings. Anything looks good, 402 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:04,679 Speaker 1: all right, it looks like it will sustain you. Imagine 403 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: for that moment in time. I don't care how compromised 404 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: he might be if he's autistic, like they're saying, he 405 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 1: still has a need for nutrients and his body is 406 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: screaming out for this and you're handing him this piece 407 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: of bread. But what you've done with the bread is 408 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 1: that you have you have saturated this bread and hot sauce. 409 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: And David, it's not just any hot sauce. It's Carolina 410 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: Reaper hot sauce. And if anybody within the sound of 411 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,679 Speaker 1: my voice has ever been to a mall somewhere and 412 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 1: they have the hot sauce shops where you can go 413 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: in and you can be brave enough to take a 414 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: chip and they'll put these different hot sauces on there 415 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: and you taste it and they'll take it up the scale, 416 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 1: you know, and it's based on what are called Scoville 417 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: units relative to the heat. Get you, for instance, if 418 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: you have ever had a Tabasco pepper, cayenne or Hilipino pepper, 419 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: they're at what it's measured on the Scoville scale. They're 420 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: measured at about thirty thousand on the Scoville scale. So 421 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: get that in your mind. Just think about what hot 422 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: sauce might taste like. Okay, Carolina Reapers are at one 423 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:27,880 Speaker 1: point five million to two million on the Scoville scale. 424 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,880 Speaker 1: So it wasn't that she kicked it up a degree 425 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 1: from Kilipinos that would be bad enough to feed somebody 426 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: that's malnourished. It's that she went to the extreme. This 427 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: is arguably, and I know that there are officionados out 428 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: there that will probably tangle with me over, but this 429 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: is arguably the hottest substance that you can go out 430 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: and purchase and then place on something to eat. So 431 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: here he is. If you can imagine your body screaming, 432 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: it's digesting itself, probably developed bed sores as well. Because 433 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: anytime and this is kind of a little aside, anytime 434 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: you have somebody that has malnourished, fat also has energy 435 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: stores for us. But you know it acts as a 436 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: cushion too for our bodies if you have no barrier 437 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: other than just this thin skin and atrophied muscle between 438 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: you and bone, and you stay in one position, which 439 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: he was held under the staircase in a little room 440 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 1: and locked away under their dave. 441 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 2: Was he in there for days or do they let 442 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 2: him out periodically? 443 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: They would let him out and then when and because 444 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: he had to be in an adult diaper. Matter of fact, 445 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 1: the last image that they saw, and she had the 446 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: house wired with CCTV dave and so there is actually 447 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: an image of her dragging him along on the floor 448 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 1: and he is still breathing, but he's out of it. 449 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: And it is claimed in court that you bear witness 450 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: to that last moment when his chest rises and falls 451 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: he literally dies on camera. 452 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 3: There was one thing that was actually shown too, where 453 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,959 Speaker 3: he was breathing through his mouth, and you've as I 454 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 3: was looking over the case, you've explained the things that 455 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 3: we do in our final stages as we're dying, those 456 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 3: breaths that aren't really breath it's just something your body 457 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 3: is doing. But he was breathing through his mouth and 458 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 3: they were short the way, it was explaining court, like 459 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 3: a fish out of water trying to get air right. 460 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 3: And his mother, if you can call her that, she 461 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 3: sees this on the camera and goes in there to 462 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 3: his little hovel which you mentioned under the stairs. It's 463 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 3: a small closet like place that is underneath the staircase, 464 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 3: and she grabs his mouth and all the time talking 465 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 3: down to him and closes his mouth shut and tells 466 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 3: him breathe through your nose. See, you can do that, 467 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 3: you dummy. The reason that's one of the reasons I 468 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 3: kind of questioned the claim of his autistic whatever issues 469 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 3: they claim he had, because the way she talked to him, 470 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 3: she talked to him is somebody who understood things at 471 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 3: a different level than what it appears. But anyway, she 472 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 3: held his mouth closed mak him breathe through his nose 473 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 3: as he was dying. 474 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that image that's conjured up of a fish 475 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: laying up on a dock and the mouth and the 476 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: gills are opening and you can't breathe. It would have 477 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: been a struggle for him to breathe. Every breath would 478 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 1: have been a labor for him, because, yeah, we have 479 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: the autonomic nervous system that controls our breathing and our heartbeat, 480 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: but it's so labor, Dave. The lungs would be heavy, 481 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: probably to a great degree, because they would be so 482 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: highly congested for him struggling in this environment. And to 483 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: make matters, if this could get and I don't see 484 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: how it could, but it can, I'm going to go there. 485 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: As part of punishment for Timothy, he was also subjected 486 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: to ice baths. Now, so we go back to fat stores, right, 487 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: you know you fat. 488 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 3: When you say ice bath, you're talking about a bathtub, yes, 489 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 3: of cold water with ice. 490 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: Ice in it? Yeah? Yeah, And you know that that's 491 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: right up there with like World War two torture mechanisms 492 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: that our service people would have been subjected to to 493 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: elicit information from them. You know what could be your 494 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: motivation behind doing that. You've got a kid that is 495 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: already greatly physically compromised. He's certainly emotionally compromised and scarred 496 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 1: at this point by virtue of what you've subjected him 497 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: to totally depended upon you. And then because he doesn't 498 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,959 Speaker 1: do something right in your eyes, because you can totally 499 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: dominate him, you're going to run the bathtub. Now you 500 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: talk about engaging in an active event. This is not 501 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: something accidental. You have to go run the bath. And 502 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 1: his brother was part of this as well. Would run 503 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: the bath and place ice in it and submerge this 504 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: kid in it and have him in there. 505 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 3: When they gave his cause of death, you know they 506 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 3: listed malnutrition in hypothermia. The bath that he took was 507 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 3: the day before he died. His body temperature never rose 508 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 3: above healthy again after that last ice bath. 509 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 1: I think that this was probably the coup de gras 510 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: for him, that that final finally, that final time when 511 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: he was subjected to this, because this is not the 512 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: only time that this happened. I think that that's what 513 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: was going to push him over the edge relative to 514 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: his system, finally just giving up and shutting down. For 515 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: a normal person, I think that if you're submerged in 516 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: say icy waters, and healthy, you're a healthy person. Let's 517 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: say you're a healthy way, You've got fat stores on board, 518 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,879 Speaker 1: you don't already have heart problems and this sort of thing. 519 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: I think that if you got into an environment where 520 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:18,919 Speaker 1: you could wrap up, have a heat source, probably within 521 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: a few hours your body temperature would get back up 522 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: into a normal range. I'm not saying it's going to 523 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: be at ninety eight point six, because most of us, 524 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: first off, don't walk around at ninety eight point six. 525 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 2: I don't. 526 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: I'm in like ninety seven, so that number varies. But 527 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,720 Speaker 1: just to get over that threshold into what would be 528 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:44,720 Speaker 1: considered to be sustainable would take a couple of hours. 529 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 1: That's where a healthy person day. For this kid, he 530 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 1: had no shot relative to this. 531 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 3: All right, That explains it. That was what I was 532 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 3: curious about because they used listed it as cause of 533 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 3: death as one of the causes. 534 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: And that's I think that that's probably a chronic, a 535 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: chronic thing. And when we look at causes of death, 536 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: it's not just going to be the one thing that's 537 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,799 Speaker 1: going to lead to our deaths. In many cases, it's 538 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: a combination. Particularly if you're talking about like natural disease 539 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: process if you have somebody that's got diabetes, high pretension, 540 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 1: those sort of things, all of those are contributing factors, 541 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 1: okay to maybe heart failure. In this particular case, it's 542 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 1: like you've got this fatal mix that's going on with him, 543 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 1: with all of these metabolic problems he's having as a 544 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: result of absence of food. It's a combination of everything. 545 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: And then on top of it, you throw in being 546 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: subjected to an ice bath. Yeah, it's going to be 547 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:41,840 Speaker 1: resk before disaster. 548 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 3: I want to ask you some about the food because 549 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 3: his mother claimed that he actually got a bag of 550 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 3: frozen chicken out of the freezer and was going to 551 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 3: eat it, which was her reason for locking things down. 552 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 3: The cabin is the refrigerator, freezer and all that, and 553 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 3: I'm not buying her argument at all. But she did 554 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,760 Speaker 3: actually change the refrigerator and keep it where he could 555 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:03,840 Speaker 3: not get Yeah. 556 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it wasn't just the fridge. I saw the 557 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: images from the seeing Dave, and this person had locked 558 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 1: the cabinets, had locked everything, And I have this image 559 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: of if he could get out and he had the 560 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 1: available energy to do it, the idea that this craving 561 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,319 Speaker 1: is starving that he would have on board that would 562 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,240 Speaker 1: just be gnawing at him. He would have to drag 563 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:32,800 Speaker 1: himself across the floor, he couldn't ambulate into the kitchen. 564 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,359 Speaker 1: Maybe at some point in time he had done this. 565 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:43,759 Speaker 1: And it's interesting with abusers, they'll do stuff symbolically like 566 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 1: this many times. Do you see what you've done to 567 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: all of us? Now, because we can't trust you around food, 568 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: we're gonna lock everything and so now, me, your brother, 569 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 1: everybody in this house is going to be subjected to 570 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 1: your disobedience and it's all your fault. And that's the 571 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: kind of thing that abusers do, and that's what she 572 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: would have done with him. It's more of a demonstration. 573 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 1: It's not that she's discouraging, you know, trying to discourage 574 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,320 Speaker 1: the theft of food. It's that she flips it around. 575 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,800 Speaker 1: And to make matters even worse, you've got this fragile 576 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 1: child who is totally deepened upon her His body is 577 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:30,319 Speaker 1: screaming for nutrition. And what you're going to subject them 578 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,840 Speaker 1: to visually is the fact that you're going to be 579 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: denied no matter what you do. And oh, by the way, 580 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: if you look over your shoulder right here. 581 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 2: I've got cameras here everywhere. 582 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: And the cameras are going to tell the tale. But 583 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: thankfully at the end, Shander thunder Arc we'll never see 584 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,719 Speaker 1: the light of day because she was convicted of first 585 00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 1: ory murder in Michigan, and her son Paul, who helped 586 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:09,279 Speaker 1: torture Timothy, was also convicted of childs I'm Joseph Scott 587 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 1: Morgan and this is body backs mean