1 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: If you had to describe the details of what happens 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: in your mind when you're just sitting around, how good 3 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: would you be at it? Does paying attention to what's 4 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 1: happening in your thoughts change your thoughts? How do we 5 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: build language about our interior life when much of it 6 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: doesn't have any words at all? What does this have 7 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: to do with getting surprised by a random beep and 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: immediately writing down what you're thinking. Welcome to enter cosmos 9 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: with me David Eagleman. I'm a neuroscientist and author at 10 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: Stanford and in these episodes we sail deeply into our 11 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,200 Speaker 1: three pound universe to understand why and how our lives 12 00:00:48,200 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: look the way they do. Today's episode is about what 13 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 1: you can know about your inner life. Now you may 14 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: know that I wrote my book Incognito about the giant 15 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: swirling river happening under the hood, all of the things 16 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: that your brain is doing that the conscious you has 17 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: no access to and no awareness of. Most of the 18 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: action is happening down at that level, but we do 19 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: have conscious thought. Think of that like the surface of 20 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: that swirling river. That's your inner thoughts. But the really 21 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: weird part is you're generally not very good at describing 22 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: your inner thoughts. In other words, we might think, oh, yeah, 23 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: I know what my conscious experience is. I have an 24 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,919 Speaker 1: inner voice, and I narrate what I'm going to do next, 25 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: and sometimes I feel happy or sad. But the issue 26 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: we're going to dive into today is that your insight 27 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: into your own conscious experience is shockingly bad, and we're 28 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: going to see a way that this can be studied 29 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: and made better. So let's start here. If you had 30 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: to describe the world around you, you could point to 31 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:18,079 Speaker 1: the things that you see. There's buildings, there's trees, there's 32 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:22,519 Speaker 1: a bicyclist. You could measure distances, you could measure temperatures, 33 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: how much things weigh, and you can put together a 34 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: detailed and accurate account of the world around you. But 35 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: the other world we inhabit is our inner cosmos, the 36 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 1: world inside. So think about the swirl of thoughts that 37 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: drifts through your mind while you're driving, or the inner 38 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 1: voice that narrates your day, sometimes it's encouraging, sometimes critical. 39 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: Or think about the images that flash by when you're 40 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: lost in a memory, or the sense of anticipation when 41 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: you're waiting for something to happen. And maybe this has 42 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: you know, words associated with it. This inner world is 43 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: arguably just as important as the outer world. It's where 44 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: our emotions are felt and our plans are born. And yet, 45 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: despite its centrality, despite the fact that we each live 46 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 1: inside this private theater of experience, it's really hard to 47 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: nail down. We don't understand it nearly as well as 48 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: we think we do. Now why not? Well, part of 49 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 1: the challenge is that the inner world is very fleeting. 50 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: A thought appears for you and then it morphs, and 51 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: then it's gone before you can catch it, or any 52 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: emotion wells up and fades before you even find a 53 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: word for it. So most of the time we move 54 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: through our days immersed in this invisible river of experience 55 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: without even realizing it's there. We are like fish in water, 56 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: surrounded by it, but unable to describe it because we've 57 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: never seen anything else. Now, imagine you're a scientist and 58 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: you want to study this inner world. You want to 59 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: take conscious experience not as an abstract idea, but it's 60 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: something that can be studied. Now, how would you do it. 61 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: We have a few tools like fMRI or EEG, but 62 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: these don't allow you to actually put a thought under 63 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:26,239 Speaker 1: the microscope. You can't weigh a feeling on a scale. 64 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: You can't take a snapshot of a passing daydream. So 65 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: maybe what you would do instead is just try to 66 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: get people to pay attention to their inner life and 67 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,039 Speaker 1: describe it. But the difficulty there is that when a 68 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: person tries to pay attention to their inner life, that 69 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 1: changes it. The rawness of experience gets replaced with their 70 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 1: ideas about experience. Maybe memories get polished, or gaps get 71 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: filled in, or stories get invented. So if you truly 72 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:03,919 Speaker 1: wanted to study conscious experience, the real, messy, flickering reality 73 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,239 Speaker 1: of it, you would need a new kind of method. 74 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: One that doesn't assume it already knows what's happening inside, 75 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: one that doesn't force people's minds into neat categories, one 76 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 1: that finds a way to respect the fluid and delicate 77 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 1: and often unexpected nature of inner life. And that brings 78 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: us to today's guest, Russell Hurlbert. He's a professor of 79 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: psychology at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. Russell has 80 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: spent decades wrestling with exactly these questions, and he developed 81 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: a technique to get at the details of people's moment 82 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: to moment experience as faithfully as possible. He's worked for 83 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: a long time to turn the mysterious territory of consciousness 84 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: into something we can actually explore. So in our conversation today, 85 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: we'll talk about what kinds of inner experiences people really have, 86 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: why our intuitions about our own minds are often wrong, 87 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: and why our inner world is richer and stranger and 88 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: more surprising than we usually imagine. Here's my conversation with 89 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: Russell Hurlbert. Okay, Russ, So before we get into your 90 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: contributions and trying to understand internal experience, I want to 91 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: understand how people were thinking about the world when you 92 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,239 Speaker 1: were a young student. So, if I'm correct, you once 93 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: met BF Skinner. What was that like and what was 94 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,799 Speaker 1: his view on private subjective experience? 95 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 2: Well, that's a great question, because I consider Skinner one 96 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 2: of my significant ancestors. I guess you could say so, 97 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 2: and I would say it's an important question because you 98 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 2: have to understand what I think Skinner thought and when 99 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 2: I think everybody else thinks that Skinner thought, and those 100 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 2: are very different things. What everybody else thinks that Skinner 101 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 2: thought was that nobody had inner experience in the world 102 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 2: was a black box or something, and what was interesting 103 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 2: was behavior, things that you could measure and external behavior 104 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 2: and and but that isn't what Skinner wrote, and it 105 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 2: isn't what he said, and it isn't what he believed. 106 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 2: But that's what a lot of people think think that 107 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 2: he said. What he actually believed was that inner experience 108 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 2: was there, and you experience things like hot and pain 109 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 2: and visual visual stuff. That stuff is there. But he said, 110 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 2: it's very difficult to scientifically deal with that stuff because 111 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 2: the language that you use to describe inner experience is 112 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 2: not well differentiated. And that was his main that was 113 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 2: one of his main contributions, one of the main one 114 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 2: of the main things that drives my research. 115 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: What did he means, not well differentiated? 116 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 2: So, for example, you have a blue background going on 117 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 2: right now, and we can we can have a conversation 118 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 2: where we can be very careful about what the color 119 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 2: that blue is. It's not navy blue, it's sort of 120 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 2: like sky blue. It's not turquoise blue. It is sort 121 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 2: of azure. Maybe it's not azure. We can we can 122 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 2: refine our language about that quite effectively, exterior language. But 123 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 2: if I say I'm feeling blue, and George says he's 124 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 2: feeling blue, and Doug says he's feeling blue. Well, there's 125 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 2: no guarantee at all that those mean the same thing, 126 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 2: And we cannot present a different blue to me, a 127 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 2: different inner blue to me, and a different and the 128 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 2: same inner blue to Doug, and and there and thereby 129 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 2: figure out what the language is. So so you can't 130 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 2: you cannot differentiate the language, Skinner said, And I think 131 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 2: he was sort of half right about that. I think 132 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 2: the language is not well differentiated in general, but I 133 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 2: think you can differentiate it. So that's maybe where Skinner 134 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 2: and I depart. So so we're in basic agreement that 135 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 2: people people's language about their inner experience is not to 136 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 2: be trusted. Where we differ is he said, well, let's 137 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 2: just let's just not deal with that, let's do let's 138 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 2: look at external behavior. And I said, I say, well, 139 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 2: let's just try to differentiate and do the best we 140 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 2: can and figure out ways that we can become confident 141 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 2: about the language that we use, and up to the 142 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 2: extent that we can do that. The other thing that 143 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 2: Skinner said that was important and that I totally agree with, 144 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 2: is that he was entirely opposed to mentalistic explanations of behavior. 145 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 2: So things like I eat because I'm hungry, because I'm 146 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 2: hungry portion is a mentalistic explanation. And he said menalisms 147 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 2: are bad science because you can't measure hunger directly. If 148 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 2: you try to measure hunger directly, even in rats, you 149 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 2: know you can. You can measure hunger by saying, well, 150 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 2: it's been a month since he's since I've given him 151 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 2: anything to eat, or this is at the amount of 152 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 2: shock that he would endure to eat, or this is 153 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 2: the amount of quinine that I can put into his 154 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 2: pellets and they'll still still eat him. All those things 155 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 2: are sort of measures hunger, but they don't correlate very 156 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 2: well with each other, and so there isn't a state 157 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 2: of hunger that drives that stuff, he would say, And 158 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 2: I totally agree with that, and so my research is 159 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 2: not mentalistic. I try to describe things that are directly apprehended. 160 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 2: They're private, yes, but they're not mentalisms. They're directly apprehended experiences. 161 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 2: So that's a lot. That's a long conversation about Skinner, 162 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 2: But Skinner a Skinner was right about almost everything, but 163 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 2: the path that he took was entirely behavioristic, or as 164 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 2: the path that I take is to say, well, let's 165 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 2: do the best we can about in our experience. 166 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: So tell us what you mean exactly by something being apprehended. 167 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,719 Speaker 2: Well, the work that I do is I generally give 168 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 2: people a beeper, and a beeper has an earphone, and 169 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 2: it delivers a beep at a random time. And I 170 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 2: am interested in what is ongoing before the footlights of 171 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 2: your consciousness at the moment of that beat. And what 172 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 2: I mean by directly apprehended is it has to be 173 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 2: absolutely ongoing for you right then, not ten seconds before, 174 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,719 Speaker 2: not in general, but at the moment, it has to 175 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 2: be happening for you. So, for example, if you were 176 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:24,839 Speaker 2: speaking to yourself at the moment of the beat, and 177 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 2: I was saying I was saying I should get a hamburger, 178 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 2: if the words quote I should get a hamburger are there, 179 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 2: that I would call that directly apprehended. But if I 180 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 2: was sort of somehow hungry maybe and we we were 181 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 2: planning and going to lunch, and but that would not 182 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 2: necessarily be apprehended. It would be a fact of the 183 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 2: universe that I'm about to go get a Hamberger, but 184 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 2: it wouldn't be directly present to me. 185 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: Okay, so you know that people have these kind of experiences, 186 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: but your contribution was developing this new method to study that. 187 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: So what did you do with the beeper to get 188 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: at experience in the way that people could tell you 189 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: what they were apprehending at that moment. 190 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 2: So the method is very simple. I give you a beeper, 191 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 2: I ask you what's going on at the moment of 192 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 2: the that was going on in your experience caught in 193 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 2: flight by the beep? That's all. That's all I do. 194 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: So the beep goes off at a random time, the 195 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,199 Speaker 1: person doesn't know that it's going to happen, and suddenly, 196 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: what were you thinking? Right then? 197 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 2: That's right? And that seems like a very simple question, 198 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 2: and much of sort of modern experiential science believes that 199 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 2: people can answer that question. I personally don't think people 200 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 2: can answer that question without some training. So when I 201 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 2: do that that kind of a study. So I give 202 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 2: you a beeper and I tell you tell me what 203 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 2: was in your experience at the moment of the beep, 204 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 2: and then come back and tell me about that well 205 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 2: later that day or tomorrow, maybe within a relatively short time. 206 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 2: We'll have a conversation about that. And when we have 207 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 2: that conversation, it'll turn out that you won't you won't 208 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:04,079 Speaker 2: be telling me about things that were going on at 209 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 2: the moment of the beat. You'll be telling me about 210 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 2: things that happened last week, or things that were I 211 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 2: was startled by the people that would be after the 212 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 2: after the moment of the beat, or things that you 213 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 2: think happened in general, Well I always do this, or 214 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 2: I never do that, or whatever, And we would have 215 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,199 Speaker 2: a conversation in which I would say, well, it might 216 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 2: be true that you will almost always do that, but 217 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 2: let's let's let the let's let the study demonstrate that. 218 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 2: Don't tell me what you always do. Just tell me 219 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 2: what was happening at this particular moment. And you would say, 220 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 2: if you're a typical participant in my research, you would say, oh, yeah, 221 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 2: you're right about that, but that really wasn't there. So 222 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 2: I'll try to do better next time. And so next 223 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 2: time you would you would presumably be somewhat better at it, 224 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 2: or you might be somewhat better at it, and we 225 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 2: would have another conversation where I would shape your ability 226 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 2: to what I call cleave to experience and cleave to 227 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 2: the moment of the beat. Let's zero in just on 228 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 2: that time, not let's set aside everything else and just 229 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 2: take a look at that particular moment as if that 230 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 2: was interesting enough. 231 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: So this is how descriptive experience sampling differs from other 232 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: introspective methods, because you're saying, what are you feeling right now? 233 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: And you have this surprising beep that goes off surprising 234 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: in time, and it doesn't sound like other things, doesn't 235 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: sound like your phone or other beeps that you're used to, 236 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: and so people have to say, what was I doing 237 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: internally just then? And so what sorts of answers did 238 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: you discover? 239 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 2: Well, what I would consider sort of my main main 240 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 2: contribution is that people a don't know what the characteristics 241 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 2: of their own inner experience are. People are very often 242 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 2: entirely mistaken about that. So, for example, a lot of 243 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 2: people come in to my studies, come in saying, well, 244 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 2: you're going to find that I talk to myself a lot, 245 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 2: because everybody talks to themselves a lot, and I talk 246 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 2: to myself a lot. And many of the people who 247 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 2: leave my studies leave saying, well, you know, I thought 248 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 2: I was going to talk to myself, but it turns 249 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 2: out I don't talk to myself ever, and that is 250 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 2: not at all uncommon. People are sometimes dramatically mistaken, often 251 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 2: dramatically mistaken, particularly about things like inner speech. People think 252 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 2: that inner speech occurs, as a matter of fact, inner speaking. 253 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 2: I prefer to call it inner speaking rather than inner speech, 254 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 2: because it's more a verb than it is a thing. 255 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 2: It's an action that I'm taking, So I think inner 256 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 2: speaking is a more descriptive deal. And some people do 257 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 2: talk innerly, so they will be saying, I'm going to 258 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 2: go get a hamburger unquote, and that gets caught in 259 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 2: flight by the beep. 260 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: And so when when you started collecting these detailed reports, 261 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: it sounds like you were surprised by it, but I 262 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: imagine the people themselves were surprised. Did it change their 263 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: notion of who they were in some sense? 264 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 2: Yes? So the method is you're going to wear the beeper, 265 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 2: we're going to talk about it. Then you're going to 266 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 2: wear the beeper again, and we're going to talk about 267 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 2: it again. And then we're going to wear the beeper 268 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 2: and we're going to talk about it again. And then 269 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 2: you're going to do it again, and you're going to 270 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 2: get better at that each time, and I'm going to 271 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 2: get better at understanding what to ask you. This is 272 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 2: the characteristic of my method that I call iterative. We're 273 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 2: going to get better and better at it as we progress, 274 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 2: and that is really what makes my research different from 275 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 2: most other people's research, the fact that I don't think 276 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 2: you're going to be good at it on the first day, 277 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 2: but I think that we can get better at it 278 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 2: than the second day, and even better at it than 279 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 2: the third day, and even better at it, which means 280 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 2: I think that Skinner was right. You're not going to 281 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 2: be good at it. Your language is going to be 282 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 2: crappy at it on the first day, but we can 283 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 2: learn how to talk about it by confronting or considering 284 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 2: a series of your experiences over the course of several 285 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 2: days of conversation. 286 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: So what did you find. What were the most common 287 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: types of inner experience that people have? 288 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 2: Well times refer to what I call the five FP 289 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,199 Speaker 2: or five frequent phenomena, which are inner speaking people do 290 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,959 Speaker 2: talk to themselves sometimes inner seeing. Most people call that 291 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 2: seeing image. I think there's a lot of reasons not 292 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 2: that call it that, but people have visual imagery. That's two. 293 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 2: The third is sensory awareness. Sensory awareness is I'm interested 294 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:28,919 Speaker 2: in some particularly sensory aspect for its own sake. Like 295 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 2: we're having this conversation, and I could be drawn to 296 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 2: the blue of the blue of your background, not because 297 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 2: the blue is important to me or important to our conversation, 298 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 2: are relevant to our conversation, but for whatever reason, I'm 299 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 2: interested in the blue of the background. That's sensory awareness 300 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 2: from my point of view. Then the fourth is feelings. 301 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 2: People do experience emotions from time to time. And the 302 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 2: fifth I call unsymbolized thinking. And by unsymbolized thinking, I 303 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,679 Speaker 2: mean I experience myself to be thinking about something and 304 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 2: it's directly before the footlights of my consciousness thinking, but 305 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 2: there's no words and no pictures, no imagery or whatever. 306 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 2: So I could be thinking, let's go have a hamburger. No, 307 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 2: I think I'll have a hot dog. Something that would 308 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 2: be that explicit Hamburger's hot dogs, but without the words 309 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 2: hamburger or hot dog, and no picture of a hamburger, 310 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 2: and no smell of a hamburger and anything about a 311 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 2: hamber except that I recognize myself to be contradicting my 312 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 2: original thought about a hamburger and changing my mind to 313 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 2: a hot dog. 314 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: And how common is the unsymbolized thinking and is this 315 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 1: different from person to person? 316 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 2: All of the five the five FP all are common, 317 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 2: and by common, I mean across all of my samples. 318 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 2: They occur a quarter or third or of the time. 319 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 2: And you can have more than one at a time, 320 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 2: so the numbers don't have to add up to one. 321 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 2: But they're all common, and they're all The frequency varies 322 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 2: from zero to one hundred percent within people, so people 323 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 2: are hugely different. There are some people who who do 324 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 2: innerally speak almost all the time, and others who never 325 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 2: innerly speak, and some who we have visual imagery all 326 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 2: the time, and some who never do and all and 327 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 2: everywhere in between. So people are people are very different 328 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 2: about that. 329 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,640 Speaker 1: This list of five frequent phenomenon, this is not exhaustive, right, 330 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 1: There are other phenomena that people experience. 331 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 2: Absolutely. I don't want us to think that there's these 332 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,360 Speaker 2: five things that you can do and that's all that's 333 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 2: all you got. You can take this one off the 334 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:52,439 Speaker 2: shelf and do that, and you're gonna take inner speaking 335 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 2: off the shelf and do that. That's not the way 336 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 2: it is. What I think is that there are enough 337 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 2: people who who just scribe a phenomenon where they are 338 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 2: engaged in some kind of speaking with themselves, that we 339 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 2: might as well give it a name and call it 340 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 2: the same thing across people. That would be inner speaking. 341 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 2: But there's all kinds of variations, both within the five 342 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 2: categories that I've ticked off there and others. So you 343 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 2: can inner speaking, for example, has as its neighbors interheering. 344 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 2: You can hear your own voice rather than speak it, 345 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 2: and that's a very different phenomenon, actually as different as 346 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 2: speaking into a tape recorder or hearing your voice come 347 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 2: back out of a tape recorder, same words, same voice, whatever, 348 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 2: But the experience is dramatically different. And inner speaking takes 349 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 2: place sometimes with entire sentences and sometimes with sort of 350 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 2: a shorthand version of sentences. There's some theorists who think 351 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 2: that all inner speaking is a condensed thing, but that's 352 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 2: not true. It's actually it's actually more common and from 353 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 2: my point of view, and more complete sentences than condensed. 354 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 2: And sometimes words are present and sometimes they're missing, and 355 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 2: you can have the experience of speaking without any words 356 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 2: at all or this all manner of alternatives. 357 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: And this question comes back to what you said about 358 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,120 Speaker 1: training people iteratively to do this. But I can imagine 359 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: it feels to me that with unsymbolized thinking, people would 360 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: often feel like they need to describe that as inner speech. 361 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,640 Speaker 1: They might confuse those do you see that happening. Let's 362 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: say I'm imagining the hammerger and the hot dog, and 363 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 1: you say, what were you thinking just then? And I 364 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: might put it into speech even if it wasn't actually 365 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: how I experienced it. 366 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 2: That's what generally happens. So the typical pattern is that 367 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 2: somebody says, I talk to myself all the time, and 368 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 2: so I said, well, that may be will be true, 369 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 2: but let's discover that. And the first peek was you 370 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 2: would say say I was saying to myself, I should 371 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 2: go have a hammerger, And I said, well, what exactly 372 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 2: were the words that you were saying? And you would say, 373 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 2: I think I'd like to have a hamburger, and I 374 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 2: would point out, well, those are not exactly the same words. 375 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 2: The first set of words was I should go get 376 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 2: a hamburger, and the other one was I would like 377 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 2: to have a hamburger. Those are not exactly the same words. 378 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 2: And I'm interested in words, so when you if you 379 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 2: have words, I'd like to know exactly what those words are. 380 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 2: And you would say, oh, that seems fair. If if 381 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 2: I'm saying what the words are, I'll tell him then. 382 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 2: And then the second day you would come back and 383 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 2: say I was saying to myself that I should turn 384 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,719 Speaker 2: up thermostat And I would say, well, what are you 385 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 2: saying to yourself? And you would say, well, the room 386 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 2: was cold, and so I think I was saying to 387 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 2: myself that I should put it up to seventy six degrees. 388 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 2: And I would say, well, you know, seventy six degrees 389 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 2: is a little bit different from my being cold. What 390 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 2: were those words? And then the third day you would 391 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 2: come back and you say, you know, I've been telling 392 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 2: you all these things about words, but they're not really words. 393 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 2: It takes it takes three days or four or five 394 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 2: of careful interviewing before the typical person can say, well, 395 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 2: you know, there really weren't words there. People have the 396 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 2: notion what I call the presupposition, that words are present, 397 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 2: and I would say that that My technique was never well, 398 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 2: I don't believe you when you say you had words there, 399 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 2: tell me about it. What I said instead was you 400 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 2: tell me what the words were. I'll like to know 401 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 2: exactly what those words were. I was always in favor 402 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 2: of your telling me about the words you, because you're 403 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 2: an honest broker, as most people really are, down deep, 404 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 2: would try to would think of that as a reasonable 405 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 2: question to try to do it, and they you would 406 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 2: discover for yourself, No, there weren't really words there. So 407 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 2: I'm I feel like an innocent observer in that regard. 408 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 1: I know some researchers are skeptical about the reliability of 409 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 1: the reports of inner experiences, So how do you how 410 00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: do you defend against that? 411 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 2: So I think everybody is justifiably skeptical about reports about 412 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 2: in your experience, And I would say, I think you 413 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 2: should not think of the results of my studies as 414 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 2: being reports of inner experience. They are descriptions of in 415 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 2: your experience that have been generated by the participant and 416 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,640 Speaker 2: me together. That is not a report. It's a big 417 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 2: difference from my point of view, because most of psychology 418 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 2: is based on reports. We'll get a report from you 419 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 2: and that's it. The subject is down the road, and 420 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 2: then we try to analyze this kind of a report. 421 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 2: I think that's bad science. I don't do that. What 422 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 2: I do instead is you give me a report that 423 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 2: said I was thinking I should have a hamburger, and 424 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 2: I said, well, let's flesh that out. Let's see whether 425 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 2: we can get a description about that. It turns out 426 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 2: to be a bad description. The second day you'll give 427 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 2: me another report and I'll say, well, let's flesh that out. 428 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 2: That turns out to be a bad description too. The 429 00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 2: third day you give me another report. But together we 430 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 2: can make that into a description that I think is believable. 431 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:10,199 Speaker 2: But it's a first person plural exercise. It is not 432 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 2: a first person seeing their exercise. 433 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: Got it? And what you're really shooting for here is 434 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,199 Speaker 1: what you call pristine inner experience. Tell us what you 435 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: mean by that. 436 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 2: By pristine, I mean naturally occurring in your natural environment. 437 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 2: So I want to know what David's experience was like 438 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,199 Speaker 2: when he's doing whatever it is that David's doing. If 439 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 2: he's doing an interview, I would like to know what 440 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 2: his experienced like to do in an interview. See if 441 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,199 Speaker 2: he's driving to the grocery store, I'd like to know 442 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 2: what's happening in the grocery store. That's what I mean 443 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 2: by pristine in your natural environment, un altered by the 444 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 2: intentions or whatever. So I use pristine in the same 445 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 2: way that you would talk about a forest being pristine, 446 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 2: but before there's an asphalt walkway, and before the plastic bags, 447 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 2: and before the road signs and all the other. 448 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: And this is how you differentiated from other psychology experiments 449 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,679 Speaker 1: where someone comes into the lab, they do a report 450 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 1: of some sort, and they leave. Just so we're clear here, 451 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,640 Speaker 1: how often were these beeps? And they were going off 452 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 1: just during somebody's day, right as they were proceeding through life. 453 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 2: What I found is that in an hour, which is 454 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 2: a pretty long time for interpersonal reaction in personal relationships, 455 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 2: So in an hour, we can talk about a half 456 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,399 Speaker 2: a dozen beeps. And so I asked you to collect 457 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 2: a half a dozen beeps in and I set up 458 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 2: I generally set the beeper so that it's random, with 459 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 2: an average time in between beeps of a half an hour. 460 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 2: So you're gonna wear the beeper for three or four hours. 461 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:44,679 Speaker 2: You're gonna get a half a dozen beeps, and then 462 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 2: we're going to talk about those half a dozen beeps. 463 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 2: And then you're gonna wear the beeper again tomorrow or 464 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 2: next week or whatever for another three or four hours 465 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 2: and get another half a dozen beeps. 466 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: And the idea is that I wear that at home 467 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: while I'm going about my life. 468 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 2: If you're at home, or if you're work or where, 469 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 2: if you're at the grocery store or whatever. I don't 470 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 2: have a rule about how you do that, but what 471 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 2: generally happens is that people will say, after they've done 472 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 2: it for a few days, well, you know, I really 473 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 2: out of work when I'm doing this kind of behavior, 474 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 2: because when I'm engaged in that activity, maybe my thinking 475 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 2: is different and we should try that. And I would say, well, 476 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 2: that sounds like a good idea. 477 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: And just remind us. When the beep goes off, does 478 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 1: the person immediately stop what they're doing and write it 479 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 1: down or record it? 480 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 2: Yes, So your task, you're wearing the beeper, You're going 481 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 2: about your everyday life. This is a beeper has an 482 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 2: earphone in it. You put an earphone in you and 483 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 2: put this in your pocket and go about your every 484 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 2: day life, and when it beeps, you suspend whatever it 485 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 2: is that you were doing to freeze your inner experience 486 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 2: enough so that you can jot down some notes about it, 487 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 2: and then generally the best way to do it is 488 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 2: to jot down notes in a notebook. But your task 489 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 2: is to jot down notes enough so that then we 490 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 2: can talk about it and you can remember what that 491 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 2: particular experience was about. I don't look at your notes 492 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 2: the notes. The notes are between you and you so 493 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 2: that you can do a good job of describing your experience. 494 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,439 Speaker 1: Are there things about inner experience that science is not 495 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: able to measure? 496 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 2: Yes, So the work that I do I try to 497 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 2: get what I call a high fidelity description of inner experience, 498 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 2: but it's short of perfection. I strive for perfection and 499 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 2: fall short all the time. But I think there's a 500 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 2: pretty big difference between somebody saying to themselves I should 501 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 2: go have a hamburger and somebody else having a visual 502 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 2: imagery of a hamburger. There's very little confusion about that 503 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 2: if people are actually saying it and people are actually 504 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 2: seeing it. If they're not, then you know, if you've 505 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 2: got some theory about the way consciousness is and how 506 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 2: hamburgers present themselves in consciousness, then those that those things 507 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 2: are hard to tease apart. 508 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: Could we use descriptive experience sampling to help people become 509 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: more aware of their own mental patterns in let's say, 510 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: therapy or mindfulness. Is there a way that if you 511 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: had better a more realistic insight into your own thought processes, 512 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: into your own inner experience, that that would help you 513 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: in some way? 514 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 2: I think they answered it as definitely yes. The typical 515 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 2: person who finishes my study says, that's the best therapy 516 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 2: I've ever had, and a lot of them have had 517 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 2: a lot of therapy. And the interesting thing about it 518 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 2: is that that what we did was never anything other 519 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 2: than tell me about what was in your experience at 520 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 2: the moment of the beat. We never tried to fix 521 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 2: you or try to you know, why do they say 522 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 2: that's the best therapy? What's their experience? Because they now 523 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 2: feel themselves to be less delusional than they were before. 524 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 2: Ah great, I think they oracle is right and know 525 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 2: yourself as an important deal. 526 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: Have you ever made a phone app that allows people 527 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: to do this on at scale? 528 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 2: I have a phone app that I have made, but 529 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 2: it isn't good enough. Sooner or later I will I 530 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 2: will build a beeper that would be easier, easily available. 531 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 2: But it's not just the beeper. It's the beeper along 532 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 2: with somebody who is skilled at helping you what I 533 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 2: call bracket your presuppositions. So you've got you have presuppositions 534 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 2: about I'm an inner speaker, say and and my technique, 535 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 2: what I call bracketing presuppositions is well, let's just set 536 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 2: that aside. Maybe you are an inner speaker, maybe you're 537 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 2: not an internspeaker. Let's let's find out. That's the bracketing technique. 538 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 2: That's ah, that is a non trivial skill if you were. 539 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 2: If you will leave yourself incorrectly to be an inner 540 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 2: speaker and you wore a beeper until the cows came home, 541 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 2: you would end up believing yourself to be an inner 542 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 2: speaker because at every beep you would say, well, us, 543 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 2: as I was saying to myself and then your next people, 544 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 2: I was saying to myself, and at the next people, 545 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 2: I was saying to myself, you need skilled interlocutor who 546 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 2: can ask questions that help you overcome your own presuppositions. 547 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 2: It's my job as an interviewer is to try to 548 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 2: pay attention to where it looks like you're describing experience 549 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 2: and where it looks like you're not describing experience and 550 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 2: help you get from one to the other. 551 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: I agree. I do wonder, in this era of incredible AI, 552 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: whether we could get that to bracket presuppositions almost as 553 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: well as the human does. 554 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 2: I doubt it, but I've been mistaken about these things before, 555 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 2: so I don't really know. 556 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: What can your work tell us about somebody, let's say, 557 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: with depression. 558 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 2: I think a good exploration of experience and depression would 559 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 2: be valuable, and I've done a little bit of it, 560 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 2: but I can. Let me tell you just one example 561 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 2: of a person who was a psychlothemic kind of person 562 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 2: who was depressed today and up tomorrow and down the 563 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 2: next day and then up or whatever. And what I 564 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 2: found was that their inner experience was very different on 565 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 2: those days. So when they were down in a depressed day, 566 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 2: they had a lot of what I would call unsymbolized thinking, 567 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 2: and when they had an up day, they had a 568 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 2: lot of what I would call visual inner scene. And 569 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 2: the interesting thing that I would like to tell you 570 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 2: about that is that when they were down, they knew 571 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 2: themselves to be down, but they did didn't know themselves 572 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 2: to be absent of visual imagery, and when they were up, 573 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 2: they knew themselves to be up, but they didn't say, well, 574 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 2: you know, when I'm up, I have visual imagery, and 575 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 2: when I'm down, I don't have visual imagery that came 576 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 2: from the exploration. So people, people's inner experience, I think 577 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 2: is directly connected to something. Whether whether it's the inner 578 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 2: experience causes it, or whether it's a result of it, 579 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 2: or whether it is an epiphenomenon, I don't. I don't 580 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 2: know the answer to that. I think you need a 581 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 2: lot of people out there like me doing this kind 582 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 2: of work. But what you what that what that example 583 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 2: says is you can't expect a person to be able 584 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 2: to tell you what the important things are because they 585 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 2: just don't know. 586 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: Have you ever tried this, let's say, with somebody who's schizophrenia. 587 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 2: Yes, my first book actually was about schizophrenia, which is 588 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 2: which is a small sample of schizophrenics. But the when 589 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 2: what I found was that there was quite a bit 590 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 2: of visual imagery involved schizophrenics, and that that visual imagery 591 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,399 Speaker 2: was very often what one of my participants called goofed up, 592 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 2: which I came to adopt as a technical term for myself. 593 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 2: So a goofed up. Well. So, first off, a normal image, 594 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 2: a non schizophrenic image, is not seeing an image. It 595 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 2: is an inter seeing. So I prefer to call it intercening. 596 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 2: And so if you're not schizophrenic, and you're you and 597 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,840 Speaker 2: you have an inner visual phenomenon, it's pretty much like 598 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,280 Speaker 2: having an external version for most people, which is to say, 599 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,320 Speaker 2: the center of it is sort of more detailed and 600 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 2: it disappears off at the edges, which means it's not 601 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 2: like looking at a photograph with a border. And my 602 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 2: schizophrenic subjects, they're intercene was like seeing an image and 603 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,839 Speaker 2: the image, which is to say, what they saw had 604 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 2: characteristics of an image. It did have a border, and 605 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 2: that border could be very arbitrary, like the border could 606 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 2: be like that, and or they or the image could 607 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 2: have spots on it, like somebody had taken the tooth 608 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 2: parts with ink on it and spattered spattered the image, 609 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,839 Speaker 2: and and that spattering is on the image. It's not 610 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 2: on the face of the guy. It's on the image 611 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:31,759 Speaker 2: of the guy. And or the image would float away. 612 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 2: So they see it like this, and then they see 613 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 2: the sort of curl up and disappear. That is not 614 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:41,839 Speaker 2: what normal what normal people do. So that is part 615 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 2: of the reason why I'm fairly sensitive when people say 616 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 2: I was seeing an image. I think it's true the 617 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 2: schizophrenic individuals, at least some schizophrenic individuals see an image, 618 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 2: whereas most normal people don't. And it's a hugely different deal. Yeah, 619 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 2: which which is unknown to most of experiential science, which 620 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 2: to me is we will. You have to You have 621 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 2: to pay attention closely, because if you let somebody tell you, well, 622 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 2: I'm seeing an image, then and you lost the game. 623 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:20,320 Speaker 2: Schizophrenics are often given credits for having blunted affect, which 624 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 2: which by which the business means they don't really experience 625 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 2: any emotions. And what I found was that my schizophrenic participants, 626 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 2: at least some of my schizophrenics, had what I what 627 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 2: I would characterize as hyper clear affect. And and and 628 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 2: so they would they would say I was angry, and 629 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,840 Speaker 2: that anger, that anger was a tear dropped shape in 630 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 2: my chest, and it was sort of this white here, 631 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 2: and then it got wider and it was half an 632 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 2: inch below my chest here and two inches thick down here. 633 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 2: That is not the way most non schizophrenic people talk 634 00:36:55,680 --> 00:37:01,320 Speaker 2: about their their inner experience, but excuse thephrenics have learned 635 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 2: not to talk like that, and so they as a 636 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 2: general rule, they don't tell you about that aspect of 637 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 2: their experience, and so it looks from the outside like 638 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,799 Speaker 2: they're inner, like their feelings are blunted. But I don't 639 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 2: think that's necessarily true. I think there's a lot to 640 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 2: be learned from knowing something about somebody's inner experience the 641 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 2: way their inner experience actually is. But to do that 642 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,439 Speaker 2: you have to go through three or four days worth 643 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 2: of editative training, and most psychology is one shot. Do 644 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 2: you the irony there is that in my work I 645 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 2: throw out the first day or two of descriptive experience 646 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 2: ampling work results all the time, because I'm sure that 647 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 2: people don't know what they're talking about. Most of the 648 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,319 Speaker 2: rest of the science spend. All they do is look 649 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 2: at what I would call the first or second day, 650 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 2: so they look at what I think is just absolutely 651 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 2: not worth watching. 652 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,760 Speaker 1: Last question, if I understand correctly, you started descriptive experience 653 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 1: am playing fifty years ago. Is that correct? 654 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:03,360 Speaker 2: That's true? 655 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 1: Okay, so where do you think it's going to be 656 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:06,240 Speaker 1: in fifty years from now? 657 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 2: You know, I think about that sometimes I think I'm 658 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:14,120 Speaker 2: fifty years out of date, and sometimes i think I'm 659 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,719 Speaker 2: fifty years ahead of the game. I think in her 660 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 2: experience is vitally important, and I think the I think 661 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 2: the oracles were right. Know thyself as an important deal, 662 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:26,959 Speaker 2: and I think the I think that's at the heart 663 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 2: of almost every thoughtful tradition people. People want to know themselves, 664 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 2: and I think we've sort of fallen away from that. 665 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,720 Speaker 2: AI is sort of the maximally falling away, falling away 666 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:45,280 Speaker 2: from that, leaving that behind. Whether we can transcend that 667 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 2: and figure out how to get back to in her 668 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 2: experience the way in your experience is actually experienced before 669 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 2: we destroy ourselves through some other method. I don't know 670 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 2: the answer to that question. 671 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 1: Talking with Russell Hurlbert reminds us of something that's easy 672 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 1: to forget. The most familiar things in our lives, our 673 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 1: own thoughts and feelings and sensations, are in many ways 674 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 1: still unexplored territory. We move through our days surrounded by 675 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:26,839 Speaker 1: the chatter of inner speech and flashes of imagery and 676 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:31,759 Speaker 1: the subtle currents of emotion, but we rarely pause to 677 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:36,400 Speaker 1: look carefully. We rarely ask what is actually happening inside 678 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 1: me right now, we rarely recognize how much is there, 679 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,280 Speaker 1: and when we do turn our attention inward, it's easy 680 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: to bring with us a set of assumptions that we're 681 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: constantly narrating our lives in full sentences, that our thoughts 682 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 1: are always well formed and logical and coherent, that we 683 00:39:55,800 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 1: already know what it feels like to be ourselves. But 684 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,440 Speaker 1: as Russell's work shows, the reality of inner experience is 685 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 1: typically messier and stranger than the stories that we tell 686 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:12,760 Speaker 1: about it. Some moments are rich with inner speech, Others 687 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:19,360 Speaker 1: unfold in pure wordless awareness. Some thoughts flash by without 688 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 1: any verbal or visual form at all. Sometimes what seems 689 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 1: central to us, like emotions, barely register at all in 690 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:31,759 Speaker 1: a given moment, and other times a sensory awareness or 691 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,960 Speaker 1: maybe unsymbolized thinking or a subtle feeling, these are the 692 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 1: things that take center stage. So what Russell is offering 693 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:45,040 Speaker 1: isn't just a scientific method. It's an invitation, an invitation 694 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: to approach our own experience with the same curiosity, the 695 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 1: same openness that a scientist brings to a new and 696 00:40:54,640 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 1: unfamiliar landscape, to bracket our expectations, to listen carefully to 697 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 1: resist the urge to simplify or categorize too quickly, and 698 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 1: maybe even to be surprised by what we find. Inner 699 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 1: experience is not just an echo of the outside world. 700 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 1: It is its own territory. It's complex and dynamic, and 701 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 1: it's worth studying, not just scientifically but personally, because in 702 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:27,399 Speaker 1: the end, understanding our conscious lives is not just an 703 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 1: academic exercise. It's you. It's what you've got going on 704 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,279 Speaker 1: in there, so you may as well figure out what 705 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 1: it is. Thanks for joining me today, and I hope 706 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,279 Speaker 1: today's episode will give you a little window into the 707 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:46,520 Speaker 1: extraordinary and often overlooked cosmos inside of us. 708 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:50,799 Speaker 2: All go to. 709 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 1: Eagleman dot com slash podcast for more information and to 710 00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:57,319 Speaker 1: find further reading. Check out my newsletter on substack and 711 00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,799 Speaker 1: be a part of the online chats there, or you 712 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,719 Speaker 1: can send me an email at podcasts at Eagleman dot 713 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 1: com with questions or discussion. Finally, you can watch the 714 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 1: videos of Inner Cosmos on YouTube, where you can leave comments. 715 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: Until next time, I'm David Eagleman, and we are catching 716 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,520 Speaker 1: glimpses of the inner cosmos