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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Smantha. I'm not coome to stuff.

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Speaker 1: I never told you a production of by Heart Radio

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Speaker 1: and in our continuing bringing back of classics for women's

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Speaker 1: history months that are very history related, we were talking

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Speaker 1: about women assassins, secret agents.

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Speaker 2: This was fascinating to me too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this was a good one one. This was a

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Speaker 3: good one.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I realized we completely blew past International

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Speaker 1: Women's Day.

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Speaker 3: Yeah we did, we did. But as we've said, it

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Speaker 3: feels we talk about it all the time.

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Speaker 2: That's who we are.

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Speaker 1: That's who we are. We are upfront about who we are,

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Speaker 1: unlike women who are assassinate.

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Speaker 2: Exactly by what a transition.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, Please endore this classic episode. Hey, this is

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Speaker 4: Annie and Samantha and holcome to Steffan never told you

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Speaker 4: protective iHeart Radio.

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Speaker 2: So Annie, I already know this. What is your favorite

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Speaker 2: spy character to dress up as?

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Speaker 3: Spy character to dress up as?

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Speaker 2: I feel like you already have right.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, well it's a Winter Soldier.

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Speaker 2: I thought, so, I thought, so I knew you had that.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, but I do have Black Widow and I

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Speaker 1: also have a catwoman, which I'm not sure counts as

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Speaker 1: a spy.

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Speaker 3: She's not going to be in that arena.

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Speaker 2: She's a cat burglar. She's a cat excuse me, she's

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Speaker 2: a cat burglar. That ended up being like trying to

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Speaker 2: be an assassin later, But she's technically a cat burglar.

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Speaker 1: I like how you emphasized cat that.

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Speaker 2: Well, because it needed to be emphasized. I don't know

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Speaker 2: if you didn't know who she was, you know she is, yes,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, she's technically a cat burglar who they try

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Speaker 2: to wrangle in kill Batman obviously, which she does not

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Speaker 2: fall for.

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Speaker 3: No, because it's catwoman, hel.

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Speaker 2: No, because it catwoman. Which by the way, I watched

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Speaker 2: an interview with Michelle Pfeiffer recently and she brought out

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Speaker 2: her whip. She actually had it in her closet. It

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Speaker 2: was one of the most fantastic things. Yes, I've ever seen.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's amazing. Yeah, that's amazing. Well, what's my character?

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Speaker 3: Do you like to dress up as?

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Speaker 2: You know, I don't dress up as much, so I

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Speaker 2: really don't have a character that I would dress up as.

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Speaker 2: But I think my favorites buy something along the lines of, like,

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Speaker 2: you know, yeah, black Widow probably one of my favorites.

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Speaker 2: Playing a game right now. The pandemic game is surprisingly enough,

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Speaker 2: and the season zero goes back to the Cold War,

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Speaker 2: so having all that, instead of being like just diseases,

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Speaker 2: they're spies.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I love these pictures of our like terrible disguises we created.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, we did this wrong. At one point,

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Speaker 2: my partner, who plays with us as well, was like,

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Speaker 2: they're supposed to be the same person. You can't disguise

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Speaker 2: into different races during the Cold War, And I was like, oh.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes we really messed up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we kind of messed up on that one, but

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Speaker 2: it made it more interesting. I will say, I feel

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Speaker 2: like they purposely made our people look goofy because the

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Speaker 2: forehead is way too high for some of those hairdooes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I put the hat like not on the head,

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Speaker 1: but on top of that.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I think it would be a good assumption

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Speaker 2: to think that we're not good spies already.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 1: And actually I was thinking about this because this is

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Speaker 1: Samantha Sugg and we've both been very excited to talk

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Speaker 1: about women in the world of assassins and spies for

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Speaker 1: a while. And I know I've mentioned before on the

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Speaker 1: show that I actually went to college thinking I would

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Speaker 1: be working for the CIA or a diplomat.

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Speaker 3: I really wanted to be a diplomat.

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Speaker 1: But as we talk through this, and as I have

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Speaker 1: recently for this episode, watched a lot of spy and

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Speaker 1: assassin thrillers, I would have been terrible. I would have

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Speaker 1: been absolutely terrible. And actually it kind of freaked me

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Speaker 1: out because I was like, how can you exist in

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Speaker 1: this world where you can trust no one right, and

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Speaker 1: also especially in our modern times, that they can just

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Speaker 1: be like, oh, at four pm every day she reads

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Speaker 1: fan fiction and cries for an hour.

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Speaker 3: Like, I don't want to be a part of this.

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Speaker 3: I don't.

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Speaker 2: I think you have to be birthed in the red room.

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Speaker 2: Your ceremony is in the red room. You can't exactly

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Speaker 2: can't exist technically. I guess I could have been the

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Speaker 2: perfect spy because I did live in an orphanage. My

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Speaker 2: origins started as an orphanage. Man, I feel like my

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Speaker 2: life turned radically different than what it could have been.

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Speaker 2: But yes, if you've been listening to our show in

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Speaker 2: the last couple of years, you know we love badass women,

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Speaker 2: and we decided we needed to talk about some of

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Speaker 2: those badass women who made history in the spy assassin world. Okay,

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Speaker 2: just to put this cab out here, I went historical,

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Speaker 2: so more of the spies and assassins I think of

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Speaker 2: like World War two and before. Yeah, so in that

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Speaker 2: time period, just to give you that caveat, so we

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Speaker 2: don't have any like the modern Cold War spies, not

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Speaker 2: that that's modern, but you know, newer ish because there's

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Speaker 2: definitely a lot of controversy on that. There's definitely a

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Speaker 2: lot of like I found women that were hit women,

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Speaker 2: like it was pretty intriguing, Like it made me sad

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Speaker 2: because of course when we talk of loss of life,

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Speaker 2: there's so much to unpack there, because you know, we

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Speaker 2: want to be sensitive to that, but at the same time,

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Speaker 2: to live in that world, as you said, it is

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Speaker 2: so fascinating, like how do you even come to this point?

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Speaker 2: But yes, of course we had to do it Samantha

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Speaker 2: Andy style, sam ann if you will, Yeah, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: gave us a a what are those nickname? A couple names.

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Speaker 3: Momento.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so a couple names, a couple names right here,

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Speaker 2: and we made it like this our style by talking

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Speaker 2: about both historical figures and fictional figures. So we wanted

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Speaker 2: to add those two together We even added a couple

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Speaker 2: of bonuses in here so that we're not going to

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Speaker 2: go into as deeply as some of the others. So,

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Speaker 2: of course, there are many many women we can talk about,

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Speaker 2: and we decided to narrow it down to just five

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Speaker 2: plus those bonuses for today's episode. Yes, and I even

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Speaker 2: put that on. Annie told her she could not do

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Speaker 2: more than five because I knew what was happening. It

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Speaker 2: would be a ten part episode about all of our

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Speaker 2: favorite characters and we would push the rules. She sure

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Speaker 2: did by saying there were quote bonuses or you know,

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Speaker 2: shout outs. Yeah, but if you want us to dig

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Speaker 2: into more even have requests for specific women, uh, you know,

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Speaker 2: we're always now to do a part two. Just let

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Speaker 2: us know. We just don't want to drag out things

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Speaker 2: that you're like, h what.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And if any of these women you want us

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Speaker 1: to dig more into, especially well, I can't speak for Samantha,

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Speaker 1: but in my fictional women world, I did kind of

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Speaker 1: do baseline, superficial right facts.

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Speaker 3: So if you want us to go more detail, right,

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Speaker 3: you are happy to.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, So what we're going to do is un

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Speaker 2: to take turns Annie and I. So I'm going to

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Speaker 2: start out with my historical people, which, by the way,

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Speaker 2: if there were spies and there were actually good spies,

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Speaker 2: the likeli of them not having a lot of information

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Speaker 2: is high. Just put that out there, so I may

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Speaker 2: not have as much information as you do because you

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Speaker 2: have character development as a where these historical figures do

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Speaker 2: not want their characters to be known. But of course

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Speaker 2: there are some that have been celebrated because they were

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Speaker 2: war heroes, so that is something to be said. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: and of course just with this, and I think this

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Speaker 2: also applies to the fictional characters. One of the reasons

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Speaker 2: may talk about why they're such a fascination with the

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Speaker 2: female and women spies and assassins is because of the

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Speaker 2: fact that they are unassumingly out there. People don't assume

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Speaker 2: that they would be harsh, mean killers and or spy

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Speaker 2: intellects like any of those things. And so they just

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Speaker 2: are either the mother, the sister, or the prostitute, which

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Speaker 2: has been used throughout apparently not only in the fictional

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Speaker 2: world but in the real world. Yeah, so just have

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Speaker 2: that pushed out there as well, write any anything else

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Speaker 2: I've forgetting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, just going along with that, especially when we

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Speaker 1: talk about the fictional characters. If you all remember the

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Speaker 1: episode we did on What Is and What Should Be,

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Speaker 1: this is kind of one of the things I had

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Speaker 1: in mind of we're going to talk about sexpionage and

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Speaker 1: women being coerced into using that or using that because

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Speaker 1: that is the world that we live in, and examining

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Speaker 1: kind of the complexity therein of women having to use

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Speaker 1: that and therefore perpetuating this kind of seductious stereotype that

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Speaker 1: that's where women's power is. But there is power there

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Speaker 1: and that's where it gets really messy. Right, But yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's going to come up a lot in this story

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Speaker 1: of all these women.

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Speaker 2: And as in fact, that's a great segue in our

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Speaker 2: first historical figure, who was known as Matahari Margharita Gertruda

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Speaker 2: Zella born in the Netherlands in eighteen seventy six was

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Speaker 2: a pretty big and well known spy. There's been movies

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Speaker 2: made of her. Greta Garbo portrayed her later on. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's pretty big. She married pretty young to an abusive

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Speaker 2: military officer. She was trying to get away from her

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Speaker 2: home which not so great, so at a young age,

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Speaker 2: at eighteen, she married this abusive military officer after the

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Speaker 2: marriage deteriator. One of her children had been poisoned, apparently

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Speaker 2: for reasons unknown, and then when she and her husband split,

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Speaker 2: he took the child after giving like gossipy news to

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Speaker 2: the world to make her look really bad. Yeah, it

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Speaker 2: was weird. The whole thing was odd. He took the

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Speaker 2: other child and left, and so she was on her own,

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Speaker 2: and she moved to Paris to become a mistress to

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Speaker 2: a French diplomat. So she she you know, made it

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Speaker 2: however she could. But soon after she became a dancer.

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Speaker 2: And just so you know, when we talk about her

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Speaker 2: and when we see descriptives of her, they talk about

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Speaker 2: how she was dark haired, black blue hair with dark

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Speaker 2: complexion olive complexion, So even though she was born in

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Speaker 2: the Netherlands, they attributed exotic features to her, as we

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Speaker 2: would say. And she became pretty famous for her exotic performances,

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Speaker 2: which she created by taking from different cultural and religious

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Speaker 2: practices and symbolism she had learned in the Indies, where

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Speaker 2: she had lived with her first husband. She became known

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Speaker 2: as an exotic dancer of the East and was renamed

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Speaker 2: as Madahara, which meant I of the day and of course,

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Speaker 2: there's also the story that another man actually put her

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Speaker 2: on this pathway and told her, you know, this should

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Speaker 2: be your name. There's a little conflict of who said

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Speaker 2: what and who started what. Unfortunately, as she became older,

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Speaker 2: her popularity waned, and she soon supplemented her income by

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Speaker 2: quote seducing men. Of course I'm saying this nicely in

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Speaker 2: the government and military. And because she was a Holland citizen,

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Speaker 2: she was able to travel wherever. She had a neutral citizenship,

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Speaker 2: she was not involved in the wartime stuff, and she

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Speaker 2: was able to travel abroad. And here is where we

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Speaker 2: begin to talk about her entreaty in becoming a spy.

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Speaker 2: Although famous, she was not necessarily the best of spies,

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Speaker 2: and there seems to be a lot of different stories

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Speaker 2: about whether or not it was her fault or whether

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Speaker 2: she was completely set up. And because she was willing

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Speaker 2: to travel from man to man, from area to area,

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Speaker 2: they thought she was a good candidate to get information

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Speaker 2: that they needed during that time during the war, and

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Speaker 2: she tried to work away into the German commands like

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Speaker 2: she was trying to work for the French and try

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Speaker 2: to get these conversations and information and try to get

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Speaker 2: some secrets, but she was soon accused of being a

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Speaker 2: double agent after some intercepted communications it seemed to state

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Speaker 2: that Matahari was a spy for Germany as well, but

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Speaker 2: some say it was a setup by both the Germans

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Speaker 2: in order to have the French arrest her after they realized, oh,

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Speaker 2: she's trying to be a spy, but also possibly from

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Speaker 2: the man who originally helped her become a spy, so

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Speaker 2: that's a whole different story. And it was later discovered

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Speaker 2: that she had taken twenty thousand francs from a German

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Speaker 2: diplomat in exchange for information. However, she stated, because she

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Speaker 2: did go on child for this, that she never had

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Speaker 2: any intent to actually spy and give information to the Germans,

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Speaker 2: but was getting camensation for the items that had been

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Speaker 2: taken from her by German guards at one point in time,

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Speaker 2: so she was just trying to you know, take her

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Speaker 2: money back essentially, right, And no one really seems to

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Speaker 2: know Madahi's actual role outside of trying to be a spy,

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Speaker 2: whether or not she was a double agent or just

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Speaker 2: an unsuccessful one for the French. And like I said,

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Speaker 2: many say that she had been set up by Captain

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Speaker 2: George Ladeux who actually again started her on the journey.

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Speaker 2: He was the one that fed into this idea, Oh

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Speaker 2: you have access, let's get some information. And when questioned,

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Speaker 2: he stated he had only hired her to root her

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Speaker 2: out as a German spy, so he was saying from

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Speaker 2: the very jump he thought she was a spy, though

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Speaker 2: there was no indication of this. Later, when different messages

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Speaker 2: were intercepted that contained the statements to incriminate Madahara, it

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Speaker 2: was LaDou who translated these messages, at which time the

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Speaker 2: originals disappeared and the only thing they had for evidence

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Speaker 2: was that translated version that he had obtained or he

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Speaker 2: had translated, and that was it. And by the way,

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Speaker 2: Ledoux was actually accused of being a double agent at himself,

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Speaker 2: and I believe he was actually incarcerated for it too.

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Speaker 2: So hello, And after being under harsh interrogations and being

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Speaker 2: represented by an elderly lawyer who apparently was the lover

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Speaker 2: of hers at one point in time, who had never

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Speaker 2: tried a military case, Maata Harra was convicted within like

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Speaker 2: forty five minutes after the trial and executed a few

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Speaker 2: days later by firing squad. Unsurprisingly, it wasn't just the

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Speaker 2: concerns and misleading information that led her to this conviction,

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Speaker 2: but her lifestyle as well. So they used her because

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Speaker 2: she had that type of excess through all her relationships,

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Speaker 2: but that also was part of her downfall, and they

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Speaker 2: used that morality against her to get her convicted as

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Speaker 2: a double agent. And the prosecutor stated during her trial

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Speaker 2: quote without scruples, accustomed to make use of men. She

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Speaker 2: is a type of woman who was born to be

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Speaker 2: a spy. And she proclaimed her innocence until the end,

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Speaker 2: apparently the last two a couple of days she had

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Speaker 2: a dance party with the nuns, not dance party, but

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Speaker 2: she had a dance off with the nuns who actually

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Speaker 2: were watching her. Because she didn't want to be remembered

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Speaker 2: as someone who is a prisoner and who has been dejected,

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Speaker 2: but going out in her like joy and dance and

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Speaker 2: what she was known for originally. And she said during

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Speaker 2: her trial a courtesan, I met a spy. Never. I

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Speaker 2: have always lived for love and pleasure. So she was

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Speaker 2: trying to let them know she never did it. And again,

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Speaker 2: like I said, there's a lot of conversation of who

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Speaker 2: was that fault and who did what?

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Speaker 1: Hmmmm ah, that kind of stuff annoys me because we'll

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Speaker 1: never know and I want to know, right, but we.

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Speaker 2: Can't because of that information. That dude, Oh he was

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Speaker 2: going after her pretty hard.

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Speaker 3: See, this is what I've learned about the spy and

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Speaker 3: assassin world. No friends.

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Speaker 1: So now let's talk about fictional assassins for my first entry.

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Speaker 1: But here's a brief intro. So typically women and leather

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Speaker 1: corsets that are very monetoed and flat. That's what been

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Speaker 1: the representation of these fictional assassins. But a lot new

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Speaker 1: assassins and pop culture are challenging that or at the

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Speaker 1: very least occasionally subverting it. And researching these characters, there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of similar elements.

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Speaker 3: I found dark.

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Speaker 1: Past trauma, chameleons, weird, traumatic training, beautiful and willing to

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Speaker 1: use that beauty as a weapon.

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Speaker 3: Top notch wardrobe.

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Speaker 1: It's very stylish, languages, knowing a lot of languages, often

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Speaker 1: using people's lowered expectations of them because they're women and girls,

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Speaker 1: like you said, Samantha, trust issues, oh wow, manipulation, good liars,

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Speaker 1: good at reading people, smart, cunning, thinking quickly on their feet.

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Speaker 1: There many times where I'm like, how did you realize this?

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Speaker 1: In the space of one second. This is impossible, very

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Speaker 1: much a lot of betrayal, but also realizing who can

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Speaker 1: still be of use to you. So just because someone

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Speaker 1: betrays you, you might still work with them. That's just

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Speaker 1: the world you live in, right. A lot of Russians

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Speaker 1: on this list, seems like no one wants to actually.

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Speaker 3: Be an assassin on this list.

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Speaker 1: Sort of started it in childhood and we're manipulated into it.

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Speaker 1: So I did choose five popular female assathens and media

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Speaker 1: with an audible mentioned am bonuses because I'm the worst

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Speaker 1: and you can't control me, Samantha, But I did. I

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Speaker 1: did keep them brief. I did, I did, and all

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Speaker 1: of them could be their own episodes. As we said,

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Speaker 1: I also try to get a good sampling. And we're

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Speaker 1: not going to talk about the Bride from Quentin Tarantino,

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Speaker 1: Uma Thurman's iconic character, because we did talk about her

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Speaker 1: in our Women in Revenge episode, although she is definitely

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Speaker 1: like up there when you're talking about women in this

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Speaker 1: whole squad. Oh yeah, pretty much anybody in that movie,

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Speaker 1: any woman in that movie. But we're gonna start with

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Speaker 1: villain L because pretty much every list mentions Villa and

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Speaker 1: L from the BBC show Killing Eve, which it's really

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Speaker 1: funny this show. This recording of this episode got delayed

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Speaker 1: by like a week, and at the time I'd never

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Speaker 1: seen this show, but listeners, I have now binge watched it.

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Speaker 3: I have now seen everybody every movie.

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Speaker 1: And show I mentioned for these five women, and I

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Speaker 1: really enjoyed it.

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Speaker 2: Sandra, Oh my girl, my girl, Oh my Girl's great,

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Speaker 2: just saying so yes.

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Speaker 1: Villain L is the code name for a higher assassin Oxana,

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Speaker 1: played by Jody Comer and Phoebe waller Bridge is one

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Speaker 1: of the writers. The show is loosely based on four

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Speaker 1: short novels by Luke Jennings called Code Name Villain.

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Speaker 3: L and Villain L is brutal and.

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Speaker 1: Unpredictable, very fashionable, often called a sociopath psychopathy something going

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Speaker 1: on there. Of the five plus bonus women that I've chosen,

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Speaker 1: she's probably the one who most enjoys being assassin. I

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Speaker 1: guess I should have said spoilers, but spoilers. That does change.

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Speaker 3: She wants to move up in the world, so she.

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Speaker 1: Is hunted by m I five security officer Eve pol

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Speaker 1: Lastree and they become all obsessed with each other and

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Speaker 1: it's sort of a romantically sexually charged obsession where they

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Speaker 1: like kind of this game of chasing and being chased

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Speaker 1: and also discovering I guess you're dark.

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Speaker 2: There's similarities, right.

356
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Speaker 1: Similarities and just human nature, dark side of human nature

357
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Speaker 1: and villain l really did shake up the female assassin

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Speaker 1: stereotype in pop culture. She's funny, she's endearing, she's charming,

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Speaker 1: but she's also deadly dangerous and frankly quite terrifying. Her

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Speaker 1: backstory is real messed up and no surprise there. She

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Speaker 1: was a violent orphan who crastrated a man out of

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Speaker 1: jealousy and then went on to work for the mysterious

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Speaker 1: organization The twelve. She really doesn't have too many in

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Speaker 1: the ways of loyalty. There's not too many people if

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Speaker 1: any guess you can argue that point there.

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Speaker 3: She's an excellent marks person.

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Speaker 1: She's very creative and how she kills people, and she

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Speaker 1: speaks multiple languages flawlessly. She's great at reading like your

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Speaker 1: weaknesses and your wants and needs. Also, because you mentioned

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Speaker 1: this recently on the show, Samantha, I almost texted you

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Speaker 1: about this immediately, but I was like, don't do it.

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Speaker 3: Weird, but my superpower with fonts.

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Speaker 1: Yes, okay, there's an episode where they bring in, like

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Speaker 1: am I six brings in this guy gives a horrible

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Speaker 1: presentation on psychopathy and it's meant to be horrible, but

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Speaker 1: he uses Papyrus font and I laughed.

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Speaker 3: Aloud because it's like, oh, you know exactly what you're doing.

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Speaker 3: That's a font that's ridiculed throughout the font world. There's

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Speaker 3: a whole SNL skate word.

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Speaker 1: Brian Gosling tries to chase down who used Papyrus for

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Speaker 1: avatar y, but I laughed aloud.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, I enjoyed that.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you for that. Yes, it's your superpower.

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Speaker 2: I'm very impressed and at the same time, like, I

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Speaker 2: don't know if I quite believe you. We're have to

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Speaker 2: have a test one day. Yeah, we should do that

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00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,119
Speaker 2: as an Instagram video where I just test you on

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Speaker 2: your superpower.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I love that show. I've only sent through the first season,

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Speaker 2: but it's gut winching and uh Sandra, oh again my girl.

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Speaker 2: But we're gonna throw it back now to well, I

393
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Speaker 2: think she's historical, but let's go ahead and get into it.

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Speaker 2: We want to talk about the first female Ninja or

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Speaker 2: Kunoucci assassin spy Matizuki chium. Of course, information on her

396
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Speaker 2: life and her work and her history is a bit foggy,

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Speaker 2: even to the point mini debate if she existed, So

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Speaker 2: we don't actually know. And again, much like many of

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Speaker 2: the other spies, you don't want men your information, and

400
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Speaker 2: if you know the history of ninja's they should not exist.

401
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,080
Speaker 2: You should not actually know who they are. So these

402
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,840
Speaker 2: are soldiers who are supposed to be in the background.

403
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Speaker 2: So there's a debate. Was she real or was she

404
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 2: just kind of a legend? But here is some historical

405
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Speaker 2: ideas about her, and some of the other theories include

406
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Speaker 2: that maybe it wasn't just one woman, maybe it was

407
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,359
Speaker 2: several women who used this name, or that James Bond yeah,

408
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 2: or that she did exist but the stories and legends

409
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:02,399
Speaker 2: were overly exaggerated to make them legends. Who knows. But

410
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Speaker 2: what is said about Mochizuki's chiyum. According to some chiyum

411
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Speaker 2: was a noble woman married to a samurai in the

412
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Speaker 2: Saku district of Shinnano in the sixteenth century and was

413
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Speaker 2: a descendant of the ninja Machuzuki Iszumu no Kami, so

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Speaker 2: she has a lineage and after the death of her

415
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Speaker 2: husband during a battle, she was approached by Takita Shingen

416
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Speaker 2: of the Takita clan to become a ninja and to

417
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Speaker 2: find other women to build a secret group of female ninjas,

418
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Speaker 2: which she did and train these women to collect information,

419
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Speaker 2: seduce men, and even kill if needed. The women were

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Speaker 2: trained to act as they were needed, whether it was

421
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Speaker 2: to be a priestess, a maid, or even a prostitute.

422
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,919
Speaker 2: Disguises in lying to fit apart or major part of

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Speaker 2: their training, so not only did they get all these

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Speaker 2: ninja skills, but to become whatever woman they needed to be.

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Speaker 2: And from the outside world, this coalition seemed to be

426
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Speaker 2: just a shelter for young women who were in need

427
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 2: of help, whether trying to survive or were orphaned, and

428
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Speaker 2: many thought chiyum was a motherly figure trying to shelter

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Speaker 2: these women and give them what they need and care

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Speaker 2: for them, when in actuality, she created this fierce organization

431
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 2: of women ninjas, which some say grew up to be

432
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Speaker 2: over three hundred women in the organization, they were forced

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Speaker 2: to be raken with and the Takeda clan became very powerful.

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Speaker 2: Of course, the story goes on to talk about how

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Speaker 2: Takeda Shingen was actually killed, and they don't know who

436
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 2: killed him. There's different stories whether it was actually Chium

437
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 2: herself or whether he was assassined by the more powerful

438
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 2: clans or opposing clans. She eventually disappears in history, and

439
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,440
Speaker 2: again there's a lot of rumors to what happened to

440
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,440
Speaker 2: her and her organizations, including maybe she was violently assassinated.

441
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,919
Speaker 2: So there's again more theories, but of course there are

442
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 2: no records to show of them or how it came

443
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 2: to an end. So this is a big mystery. And

444
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 2: it also has been movies and she's actually shown up

445
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,639
Speaker 2: as characters in different video games, Assassin video games, so

446
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 2: it was very interesting to see. But she was the

447
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 2: reason I wanted to do this episode talk because I'm like,

448
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 2: oh my god, it's a female ninja and we need

449
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 2: to talk about her. Again. I don't have a lot

450
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,400
Speaker 2: of information, and there's different people saying different things, and

451
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,439
Speaker 2: a lot of it are just blog posts and or hopes,

452
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 2: especially for those who are fascinated by the Japanese culture

453
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 2: and the ninja culture, which is fascinating, let's be real, honest,

454
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 2: which is why we have so many ninja karate movies throughout,

455
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 2: but yeah, have her as possibly a historical figure who

456
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 2: ran an all women's ninja organization.

457
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, terrifying. I'm telling you, that's what I've learned through

458
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: watching these movies and shows. They're like, this is the

459
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: scariest please. So we did want to talk about the

460
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: next fictional intrigue, but first we're gonna pause for a

461
00:24:44,880 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 1: quick break for words from our sponsors, and we're back.

462
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 3: Thank you sponsored.

463
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 1: So before we go into the next person on my

464
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,919
Speaker 1: fictional female assassins, the spies list, I did want to

465
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 1: say there is some debate over the definition of spies

466
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,199
Speaker 1: and assassin, right right, especially assassin in this case, I

467
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 1: would say, but and there are some in the Shout

468
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 1: Out Slash Bonus list that I actually would not say

469
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 1: are assassins, but people included them on their lists a lot,

470
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 1: so at least in some people's size.

471
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I told you it was interesting to

472
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 2: go through my list because they confused assassin with just killers.

473
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 3: Serial killers.

474
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, serial killers. So I was like, that's not what

475
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 2: I would consider assassin because you know that has sometimes

476
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:45,880
Speaker 2: political leaning typically so and again, a lot of spies

477
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 2: and we don't talk about too many of them. Well, actually,

478
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 2: I guess when we talk about chiom they were taught

479
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 2: to kill if necessary. They did poison men and or

480
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 2: do what they needed to do. It wasn't a primary focus.

481
00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 2: But some spies have killed so.

482
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 3: Right, yes.

483
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 1: So for our next fictional assassin slash by, we're talking

484
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: about Arius Stark from Game of Thrones. So spoilers brief

485
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: spoilers in here if you haven't caught up. So these

486
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 1: are this show's based HBO show based on the gr

487
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: R Martin books, and Mazie Williams plays Arius Stark, who

488
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: was this Tom Bloy turned young assassin. After she is

489
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 1: pretty much everything, Aria has to adapt to survive, and

490
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 1: she becomes obsessed with getting revenge on those who have

491
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 1: wronged her, and she recites the names of those she

492
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,959
Speaker 1: plans to kill each night and throughout the day. Sometimes,

493
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: although her revenge does not always involve killing, worth pointing out,

494
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 1: she ends up training in combat, espionas and assassination. Since

495
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: she's a young girl, most don't view her as a threat.

496
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 1: She's stubborn and patient, dedicated, independent, resistant to gender roles,

497
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: but as she ages and trained, she becomes lethal and

498
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 1: her impatience wanes. While she is in many ways unforgiving

499
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: and vengeful, she is more empathetic than many in this

500
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: very rough game of thrones the world and has more

501
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: of a sense of justice. When much of her trauma happened,

502
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: she was a child, so when it's fresh, she is

503
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 1: quick to promise murder to any slight, any slight against

504
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 1: her family. The first man she kills mocked her recently

505
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 1: slaughtered older brother, which she has is more than a slight,

506
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 1: but she stabs him to death as a knife. But

507
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 1: with time, this impulsive vengeful violence lessons, making way for

508
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: a colder, planned revenge. I think that's one thing that

509
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: separates her from I think everyone else on this list.

510
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: She was a kid, and I would argue that she

511
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 1: was like traumatized, so she kind of went through this.

512
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 3: Assassin face and then like left it right.

513
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: But yeah, because this is set a fantasy world, she

514
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: learns how to have no face, meaning she can assume

515
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 1: the face of just about anyone. And this is after

516
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 1: taking on harsh training under the House of and White,

517
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: and it takes her a minute to let go of

518
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: her identity of Arius Stark is something important to her

519
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 1: and she never really fully does. She still uses the name.

520
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: She hides her beloved sword needle when she was supposed

521
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: to destroy it. She has to learn how to lie,

522
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 1: which is kind of a long lesson for her. She

523
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 1: admits she is not ready to be No. One, but

524
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: she is ready to become someone else. She's also different

525
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: than the others on the little list because she wants

526
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: to kill who she wants to kill and is less

527
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: interested in taking on assignments from a higher power, which

528
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 1: gets her into trouble a lot through her training. Her

529
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: assassin identity or non identity consumes her for a while,

530
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: but when she deems her training as complete, she reclaims

531
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: her name and returns home. If you were on her

532
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: kill list, you were out of luck. You were out

533
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: of luck. She would kill you after you ate a

534
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 1: pie of your own sons. It was just brutal. She

535
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: did end up killing the show's big bad, the Night King. However, Yeah,

536
00:28:57,920 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: she gives up on a question revengeance in the end,

537
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: moves out of this assassin phase and decides instead to

538
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: try to protect and becomes an explorer.

539
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 3: However, I still would not mess with her no way.

540
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, she definitely had the big moments in Game of Throne,

541
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 2: I think.

542
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, And then all the dudes were like, no way

543
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 5: she could do it, she could watch she did, or

544
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 5: about that she did, or about that well, I am

545
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 5: going to talk about one of the first assassins instead

546
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 5: of just the spy here.

547
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 2: Charlotte Corday, who was also known as the Angel of

548
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 2: Assassination and Charlotte Corday was a noble woman in Normandy

549
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 2: who during the French Revolution was part of the Geordan

550
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 2: Conservative Party and worked her way into the presence of

551
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 2: Jean pal Morat, who was a radical Montagnard. So he

552
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 2: was pretty big during this time, and he was the

553
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 2: editor of the Lami du Poupla, which is translated the

554
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 2: Friend of the People, and it was a newspaper during

555
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 2: that time, and was also the author of a Front

556
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 2: de la patri or Offering to our Country, So obviously

557
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 2: he was a big part of the movement and changing

558
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 2: in the Radical party. She, however, under the pretense that

559
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 2: she was trying to come and give him some information,

560
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 2: was able to see Morale and while he was taking

561
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 2: one of his medicinal baths apparently he had a condition

562
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 2: which he needed to be bathed often, she proceeded to

563
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 2: stab him to death, which by the way, is depicted

564
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 2: in a really famous Jacques Louis Davis painting, The Deaths

565
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 2: of Morac. I think if you saw this painting you

566
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 2: would be like, oh, yeah, I definitely know this one.

567
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 2: It is the dude that's hanging out the baptub with

568
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 2: the newspaper in his hand. Really gorgeous painting. Of course,

569
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 2: four days after he really is four days after the assassination.

570
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 2: Corday was executed for our crime. But she became famous

571
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 2: because she was unexpected. It's kind of one of those

572
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 2: exactly what you sit there that Wow she did that

573
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 2: where she came in and felt like her country was

574
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 2: being threatened by this man and apparently he was known

575
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 2: to be cruel during that point in time, and so

576
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 2: she went after him. And because no one assumed this

577
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 2: frail young woman could do anything, she got to him

578
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 2: and was able. She was the Ariya who ended up

579
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 2: dying to be fair and not trained per se, but

580
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 2: was able to pull off something but no one else

581
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 2: could at that point in time.

582
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

583
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, now for our next fictional entry. And I

584
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: love the idea that someone kind of dozed off in

585
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: the beginning and they wake up and they're like, wait,

586
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: what is happening.

587
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 3: We're gonna talk about Black Widow. There we go.

588
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: Yes, so disclaimers always with these cog book characters, there

589
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: are so many multiverses and if for you those keeping

590
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: up with current Marvel stuff, you know what I'm talking about,

591
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: it can get real messy. So we're gonna be focusing

592
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: primarily on the films here. So Natasha Romanov aka Black

593
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: Widow played by Scarlett Johansson, I mean she like holds

594
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: her own with the Avengers, goes against quote gods and

595
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 1: monsters without powers.

596
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 3: So yeah, she was a founding member.

597
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: After she was recruited by Clint Barton aka Hawkeye.

598
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 3: She said, I have a very specific skill set.

599
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: I didn't care who I used it for or on

600
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: I got on Shields Radar in a bad way. She

601
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: was trained from a very young age as a KGB assassin.

602
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 3: Also was one time a dancer. That's a recurring theme

603
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 3: on this list.

604
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and even after she joined Shield and the Avengers,

605
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: she still utilized her spy, stealth and infiltration skills as

606
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: well as her combat and weapons training.

607
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 3: You can go.

608
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 1: Look, because of course someone's compiled all the training she has,

609
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: and it's pages and pages long. She also uses her weapon,

610
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 1: widows Bite, which is that glowing blue electroshock thingy around

611
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: her wrist.

612
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 2: You know.

613
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: It's a grappling hook, a taser, disc shooter, a charger

614
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:40,719
Speaker 1: for expandable batons.

615
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, those things like that are why

616
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 2: I could not be a spy, because I would have

617
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 2: gotten myself, like I just you know, like the menute.

618
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 2: I looked at it kind of like the main with

619
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 2: Luke looking into his lightsaber. That would be that moment

620
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 2: of me is like tasing myself because I'm a cool

621
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 2: you know.

622
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: It's so funny you mentioned that, because a Google does

623
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: me so well, but it's embarrassing this morning.

624
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 3: They are like Mark Cable. So that's what me makes

625
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 3: some cringe. And I was like, I know which one.

626
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 2: It is, light say, and it.

627
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: Was which is not in the movie, but all right, Yeah,

628
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 1: this thing also has like strangling wires.

629
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 3: It's very multifunctional.

630
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: She was trained in the Red Room, as you said,

631
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: where the graduation ceremony involved sterilization quote one last thing

632
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: to worry about makes everything easier, even killing. She was

633
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: top of her class though she struggled after she was

634
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: forced to kill an innocent man. She is definitely sexualized

635
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: and often weaponizes her femininity and the fact that people

636
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: think she is a woman who can't possibly be that strong.

637
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: She weaponizes that too. She's pretty manipulative. She's good at

638
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 1: lying and reading people. She is interrogating people who believe

639
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: they are interrogating her. When we first see her in

640
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,719
Speaker 1: The Avengers, she tricks Loki to find out his motive

641
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: in that movie too. She's intelligent, good with technology, good

642
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 1: at playing roles, pretty sarcastic. She first appeared in the

643
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: movies in Iron Man two when she goes under cover

644
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: to spy on Tony Stark, which I thought was very convoluted.

645
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 3: Plotline, but whatever.

646
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: She later helped recruit Tony Stark and Bruce Banner to

647
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: join the Avengers in the first Avengers movie, partly motivated

648
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: by her determination to save Hawkeye from Loki's control, which

649
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 1: she eventually does, and she's the one that figures out

650
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: how to close the portal to stop the Aliens that

651
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 1: are attacking from New York. I love explaining to lots

652
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 1: of these movies because they sound so weird when.

653
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 3: They're like out of context and many ways.

654
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,399
Speaker 1: She does become the heart of the Avengers. She calls

655
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: them her family. She helps train the second generation of members.

656
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: She leaves the Avengers post snap and sacrifices herself so

657
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 1: that their mission has a chance of succeeding. She is

658
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 1: empathetic and understanding. She doesn't keep up on people. She's

659
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 1: sort of a reformed assassin. That's what I'm trying to say.

660
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, because when I was reading through this,

661
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: I'm like, she at one time was, but when we

662
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: see her that's sort of a past life and she

663
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: still uses those skills, but not really her thing.

664
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 2: Right. Oh, I'm excited about the Black Widow movie.

665
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 3: Which I does. I realize it's still not come out.

666
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

667
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,240
Speaker 1: Oh geez yeah, uh Sminty watch party.

668
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 3: Yeah.

669
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: She's trying to make amends for her past, and that's

670
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: why the discovery that Shield has been infiltrated by Hydra

671
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: the Winter Soldier hits her so hard because she realized

672
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 1: she didn't know whose fly she was telling.

673
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 3: Also common theme in these spy stories.

674
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: She blows all of her covers at the end and

675
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: then goes off the grid, and then you see her

676
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: working through this during Civil War first sighting with Tony

677
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,360
Speaker 1: Stark over the Socovia Chords, but then helping her friend

678
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: Captain America, forcing her to once again go off the

679
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,839
Speaker 1: grid and go on the run with Captain America post

680
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: snap or the blip, she's the term to keep fighting

681
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 1: to make things better, and I do want to put

682
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:38,439
Speaker 1: asterix here.

683
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,879
Speaker 3: I feel like maybe fictional women around the world.

684
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: I will return to this because a lot of you

685
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 1: are probably being like, well, there's a lot of feminist

686
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: issues you could unpack here about like the serialization thing,

687
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 1: the sexualization thing, the fact that she's the one that

688
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,760
Speaker 1: sacrifices it's like not many women to go around.

689
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 3: But yes, we're gonna put a pin in that for

690
00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 3: now and.

691
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 2: Move on, right. I will say I do love her

692
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 2: relationship with Captain America Steve Rogers. That is platonic. I

693
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 2: do see it remains that way. I'm like, yeah, finally,

694
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,240
Speaker 2: oh my god, me too. Although they at the beginning

695
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 2: it did seem like they were trying to.

696
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think they were pretty much with anybody

697
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: with her at that point.

698
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 2: That's true.

699
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 3: Maybe this will work, Maybe this will work.

700
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 2: Well, we're going to go and take it back to

701
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,399
Speaker 2: the civil war. Oh yeah, I did that.

702
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 3: Okay.

703
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 2: So we have a Canadian woman, Sarah Emma Edmunds, who

704
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,439
Speaker 2: escaped an abusive home an actually an arranged marriage, left

705
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 2: and changed her name from Edmunds to Edmund's son, and

706
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 2: she eventually made her way into the United States around

707
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 2: eighteen fifty eight, when she decided to disguise herself as

708
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 2: a man so she could travel across the country and

709
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 2: secure a job. She called herself Franklin Thomas and soon

710
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 2: worked as a very successful traveling Bible salesman.

711
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 3: Yeah.

712
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,320
Speaker 2: As the Civil War began in the States, she decided

713
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 2: to enlist as Franklin Thomas to assist in the war

714
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 2: on the Union side. By the way, she nursed wounded

715
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 2: soldiers in the hospital and worked as an attendant for

716
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 2: them for a while, but was moved to becoming a

717
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 2: mail carrier during that time for the Union, so she

718
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 2: would actually travel in these really dangerous conditions to carry milha.

719
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 2: She eventually was asked to be a spy and was

720
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 2: sent to get information behind enemy lines the Confederacy. She

721
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 2: often disguised herself as a woman, so she was a

722
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 2: woman pretending to be a man pretending to be a woman.

723
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 2: Which I thought was awesome, or sometimes as an Irish peddler.

724
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,720
Speaker 2: Of course, not much of this information was found on record,

725
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 2: since she was supposed to be a spy, but was

726
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 2: part of her own retelling in her memoir Nurse and

727
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,320
Speaker 2: Spy in the Union Army. She kept seeing some battle

728
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 2: time and even getting injured while trying to carry mel

729
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,760
Speaker 2: but eventually left after being denied furlough when she contracted malaria,

730
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 2: and she was afraid of being discovered as a woman

731
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 2: if she sought medical attention, and so Franklin Thomas left

732
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 2: and was charged with desertion. So she released her memoirs

733
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 2: in eighteen sixty four and gave it pretty much a

734
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 2: tell all, with some fictional takes on some of the events,

735
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 2: so I guess she was kind of embellished, but she

736
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,280
Speaker 2: gave all the profits she made to different soldiers aid groups,

737
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 2: so it wasn't about her. And she actually went to

738
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 2: her infantry reunion in eighteen seventy six and was received

739
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 2: with open arms and was eventually recognized by the military

740
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 2: and cleared of desertion charges as well as given a pension,

741
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 2: So she had the backing of her soldiers, which I

742
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:30,879
Speaker 2: believe was the second Michigan Battalion that she was able

743
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 2: to get her pension, which by the way, apparently literally

744
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 2: took an Act of Congress in eighteen eighty four for

745
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 2: her to receive. But after her death, she was buried

746
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 2: with military honors at Washington Cemetery in Houston, and a

747
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 2: year before her death, she was admitted to the Grand

748
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 2: Army of the Republic, which made her the one and

749
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 2: only female member, which I thought was super cool. So

750
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 2: we've talked about different other soldiers and she was another one.

751
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:56,919
Speaker 2: To be fair, she was a Canadian woman, so there's

752
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 2: a little difference in her story, but she was able

753
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,800
Speaker 2: to get pension and was able to get recognition for

754
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:02,399
Speaker 2: her work.

755
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well, hard pivot from the Civil War.

756
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 2: I know.

757
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: Our next fictional character is Hannah, which I just watched

758
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: last night. And I've been meaning to watch this for

759
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 1: a while because people kept saying this is a movie

760
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: you'd really like, and I'm like, I'm not sure, but

761
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 1: I did like it. So this is a film by

762
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 1: Joe Wright where Shorsha Ronan plays sixteen year old Hannah Heller,

763
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 1: who was raised from a young age to be an

764
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 1: assassin trained in the finished Wilderness by her father, who

765
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: was a former Black Ops officer. The CIA enhanced her

766
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 1: DNA to give her exceptional strength as part of a

767
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,359
Speaker 1: program to create super soldiers. Her father ran away with

768
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 1: her and now they're kind of both on this list

769
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 1: of you know, must.

770
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 3: Kill and she is very deadly.

771
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: She has weapons training, she can speak multiple languages. Her

772
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: father's very precise in the training of her, like never

773
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: lets her sleep without attacking her and always questioning her

774
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: to answer in these different languages. So while on a

775
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 1: mission across Europe handed to her by her father, she

776
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 1: is hunted by Marissa Weigler who's played by Kate Blanchette,

777
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,800
Speaker 1: and she's an intelligent officer that actually Hannah thought she'd killed.

778
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: That was her mission was to kill her, but it

779
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 1: was a ploy, so she killed the wrong woman. She

780
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 1: killed a woman dressed like her. And there is an

781
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: Amazon Prime show based on the movie with Esma creed

782
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 1: Mile as Hannah. Because of how Hannah was raised so isolated,

783
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 1: she is quite curious about the outside world, like she's

784
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 1: never heard music, she doesn't know what dancing is, those

785
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 1: kinds of things. But also she's very very paranoid, which

786
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 1: makes sense it's an assassin coming of age story.

787
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 2: Okay, so I do know. I didn't. I haven't watched it,

788
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 2: but I've seen the previews for the Hannah Amazon Prime

789
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,760
Speaker 2: show and I was like, hey, I know this. I didn't.

790
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 2: I haven't watched either one of those. Yeah, but I

791
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,240
Speaker 2: do think it's interesting, like the fact that Amazon primetick

792
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 2: doesn't made it a series. They did the same thing,

793
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 2: not necessarily with a black widow, but chilled and made

794
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 2: it a spy show on its own. So I do

795
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,359
Speaker 2: find that interesting too, because it is it's a very

796
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 2: big story that you could take in big rabbit holes

797
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 2: like you like think jumps that you don't realize is

798
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 2: going to happen.

799
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely you can. And we probably have more twist

800
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 1: and turns in this episode. But first we have one

801
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 1: more quick break for words from our sponsor, Aeric Fact.

802
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 3: Thank you sponsor.

803
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 2: Twisting turns. Yes, because I am now going to take

804
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 2: it back to World War Two. Okay, so we're coming

805
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 2: because Hannah was kind of like today, what if she's

806
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:45,839
Speaker 2: a spy? Yes, And I'm going to talk about nor

807
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,919
Speaker 2: any Yacht Khan, who was born to an American mother

808
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,319
Speaker 2: an Indian father in Moscow in nineteen fourteen, and she

809
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 2: was a direct descendant of the eighteenth century Muslim ruler

810
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 2: of my Sore Tippoo Sultan. Her father was a musician

811
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 2: and a Sufi teacher, and moved the family to London

812
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 2: and individually to Paris, where Khan was able to get

813
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 2: her education and eventually become a children's writer. After the

814
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 2: fall of Paris in nineteen forty, she actually escaped to

815
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 2: London where she joined the WAAF or Women's Auxiliary Air Force.

816
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 2: It was said her father had instilled in her the

817
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 2: desire for nonviolence and the unity of all religions, which

818
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,399
Speaker 2: is what Sufie was, and that she had learned from

819
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 2: an early age to stand up for those who were

820
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 2: oppressed and was willing to sacrifice to do so.

821
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 5: So.

822
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 2: Though she was not a British citizen, she wanted to

823
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 2: work and help in this fight. Soon after she joined

824
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 2: the WAAF, Con was recruited to join the Special Operations

825
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 2: Executive or SOE, which was a secret British organization that

826
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 2: since spies in occupied areas of Europe. So with CON's

827
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 2: education and her ability to speak French fluently, this was

828
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,720
Speaker 2: perfect for her, so she against She knew different languages

829
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 2: was able to fit in. She became the first woman

830
00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:00,320
Speaker 2: a wireless operator sent by the UK and she actually

831
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 2: went into France and worked with Prosper, which was a

832
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 2: French resistance network. But when she first arrived, all of

833
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 2: her high ranking agents were captured as well as their

834
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 2: equipment by the Nazis, leaving Khan as the only operator

835
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 2: for the next few months. Unfortunately, she was eventually arrested

836
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 2: by the Gestapo or the Nazi secret police, after one

837
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 2: of her colleagues portrayed her. So you have all of

838
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 2: these like twists and turns, and there is a movie

839
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 2: out by the way that was released last year, I believe,

840
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 2: and she was tortured and placed in isolation by the

841
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 2: Nazis for information, but she never gave any information and

842
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 2: was eventually executed. And as in fact, one of the

843
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 2: people who questioned her talked about how impressed he was

844
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 2: of her because she was so brave and so steady,

845
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 2: So I thought that was really really interesting. In August

846
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty, nor became the first South Asian woman

847
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 2: to be given the Blue Plaque, and there's possible talks

848
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 2: of her being on a British coin as well, which

849
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 2: would be super cool. She was also awarded the Georgie

850
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 2: Cross and the French Digia after her death, and a

851
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 2: statue was also enveled in twenty twelve in London honoring

852
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 2: what she did for the war. So she is a

853
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 2: big figure. And also there's this big conversation of the

854
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 2: fact that at that time she was a follower of

855
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 2: Mahatma Gandhi and even said, you know, after the war,

856
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 2: she would have to side with India over Britain, even

857
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 2: though she had fought for and it was, you know,

858
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 2: in service of Britain, but because where her heart lies.

859
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 2: And again she was about representing for those who were oppressed,

860
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 2: and she saw this community as being oppressed and she

861
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 2: was absolutely right. But it was really interesting the fact

862
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 2: that she's finally being recognized and giving all the accolades

863
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 2: that she should be given, and just being and seeing

864
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 2: what she had done and that she had died in

865
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:44,720
Speaker 2: service for a country that wasn't technically hers.

866
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 3: Right.

867
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 1: Well, that's an interesting segue until my next fictional pick,

868
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: which is Red Sparrow. And I chose this one very

869
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 1: specifically because it does include the heavy element of sexpionage,

870
00:44:58,160 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 1: which I think we'd come back and do a whole

871
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 1: episode on because the school that they mentioned in this

872
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,439
Speaker 1: book slash movie that Red Sparrow goes to may.

873
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 3: Or may not be real.

874
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 1: It might actually be a thing that people went to

875
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 1: and learned to basically have sex and have no attachments.

876
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 1: So it's a book by Jason Matthews that's set in

877
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 1: modern day Russia, which had a movie that came out

878
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:23,840
Speaker 1: recently in which the titular character was played by Jennifer Lawrence.

879
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:25,879
Speaker 1: I also watched this again last night, and I will

880
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,760
Speaker 1: tell you it is tough. That was a tough watch.

881
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: I enjoyed it, but all right. So, after famous ballerino

882
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 1: Dominica Agarova suffers an injury that ends her dancing career,

883
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 1: which was gruesome and on purpose, she is coerced into

884
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 1: joining Russia's foreign intelligence service, the SBR, in order to

885
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 1: support her ailing mother. She is trained as a sparrow,

886
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: which is yes, someone who uses their body in seduction

887
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 1: as a weapon, also called sexpionage and given the code

888
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 1: name Diva. The world she operates in is brutal. There's

889
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 1: torture and there's rape, and there's no room for failure.

890
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,359
Speaker 1: And even if you don't fail, they'll probably torture you.

891
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 1: And there's so much backstabbing you really can't trust anybody.

892
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 3: And the training for.

893
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: These pars involves stripping naked and performing sex acts on

894
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 1: strangers in front of other strangers, detaching from their bodies.

895
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: These lessons that are taught by the Unforgiving Matron, and

896
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 1: Dominica's main weapon is, as quote, anonymous sex object, even

897
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 1: though this obviously limits her and her capabilities, which some

898
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 1: have interpreted as a direct criticism of the depiction of

899
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 1: women in this genre, Like the movie and book were

900
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 1: directly criticizing those things, but in the end she is

901
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: the one who gets revenge. It's pretty satisfming playing those

902
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 1: that thought they were playing her. When I was watching this, though,

903
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 1: it's another one of those things, was like, damn, she's smart.

904
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 1: I would have just been like, ugh, I'm screwed. She

905
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 1: figures these things out on the fly, and she was

906
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 1: really good at reading people. That was kind of her

907
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,040
Speaker 1: whole thing, that she could immediately figure out that a

908
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 1: piece of wants and needs that people had and fit

909
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 1: into it. From David Simms at The Atlantic, this is

910
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 1: a secret agent story in which the secret agent angrily

911
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: complains that she got sent to horror school by her government,

912
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 1: one that tries to flesh out the undercurrent of misogynistic

913
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 1: coercion inherent in so many of these narratives.

914
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, kind of reminds me of the storyline with the Americans.

915
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:23,919
Speaker 2: And I only watched a couple of episodes which has

916
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 2: Carrie Russell and her now husband, but they are Russian

917
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 2: spies that are sent into the US. But they have

918
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 2: a small scene where she is being trained and she

919
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 2: gets brutally raped by a teacher. But that's being taught.

920
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 2: This is what you have to deal with. This is

921
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 2: what you're going to have to learn, So you need

922
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 2: to learn here. So it's kind of like, oh, what's happening.

923
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think, and it was so funny as

924
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 2: I was researching it. Red Sparrow did come up, and

925
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 2: a lot of different lists of people came into this.

926
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 2: And when we talk about the more modern spies, you

927
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 2: see that a little more mentioned now not necessarily that

928
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 2: it wasn't done because when we talk about the female ninjas,

929
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 2: and one of the things they talked about was being

930
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 2: gacious and prostitutes and being sent out as well as

931
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 2: priestess to be prostitutes, and you know in their presence

932
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 2: to get that information, however, you know you need to

933
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 2: and they don't expect a prostitute to be a spy necessarily,

934
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 2: which we know is a plot line for a lot

935
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 2: of the movies because partially it is true, and a

936
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:19,959
Speaker 2: lot of the old school spies, whether we're talking about

937
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 2: the KGB because I saw KGB references, which again you're

938
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 2: not supposed to know much about, but a lot of

939
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 2: details of being dancers or hookers or all of these

940
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 2: things that you see, it happened a lot more than

941
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 2: we know and or that's the part we know about

942
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 2: them because that was the public persona. So there's that. Yeah,

943
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 2: So that is kind of a conclusion. I do have

944
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 2: a little bit of bonus and just got some mentions

945
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 2: just to name a few more historical spies that we

946
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 2: could dig into later. Christine Grantville, who was Britain's first

947
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 2: female special agent, Belle Boyd aka Labill, yes, a spy

948
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 2: for the Confederacy during the Civil War the US. And

949
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 2: then Jessephine Baker, which I know people know that name,

950
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 2: who was an American born French dancer entertainer, was also

951
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 2: a French resistant spy.

952
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's plenty.

953
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, there were so many that I was like, Okay,

954
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:14,880
Speaker 2: who am I going to focus on?

955
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was hard to choose, which is why I

956
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 1: also have a bonus mension.

957
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 3: And then some shout outs of.

958
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:24,319
Speaker 2: Course, no, you had to, you had to.

959
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 1: I know you had to, and you know I had

960
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: to include the Star Wars one, which is mar Jade.

961
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 1: And actually, I bet she's going to show up in

962
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 1: cannon suit, like official Disney cannon.

963
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 3: So it's giving you a little heads up.

964
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:40,919
Speaker 1: So in the Star Wars Extended Universe slash Legends, which

965
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:43,319
Speaker 1: is no longer canon, but before Disney came along, this

966
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:46,399
Speaker 1: is what was up. She was a secret assassin, raised

967
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:50,400
Speaker 1: and trained by the Emperor himself. She became so deadly

968
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 1: that she earned the title the Emperor's Hand, and she

969
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: hears this prophecy in her head that she will kill

970
00:49:56,200 --> 00:50:00,080
Speaker 1: Luke Skywalker, So of course she hunts him down and

971
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 1: then she finds him and catches him and they fall

972
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 1: in love and she's like, oh no, I can't kill him,

973
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 1: but I must.

974
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:07,240
Speaker 3: But Twist, the evil.

975
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:11,399
Speaker 1: Wizard, who is now in power, has used Luke's cut

976
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: off hand to clone Luke and make an evil Luke

977
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 1: for two of you Skywalker. So she kills Luke and

978
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 1: marries Luke and becomes a Jedi. And this w plot

979
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:24,839
Speaker 1: twist is one of my very favorite things ever.

980
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 2: Yes, I laugh, laugh and laugh. Yes, I love it

981
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 2: and I am definitely laughing.

982
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 1: And then bonus, just to I know that they exist.

983
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 1: There's Missus Smith the Bride, which we said pretty much

984
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 1: anyone in Kill Bill Alias may Day Interview to kill

985
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 1: Salts Nikita, Hey, I'm flex Elizabeth Jennings from The Americans, Yep,

986
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 1: Samantha Kine played by Geena Davis Tremble long Kiss good Night,

987
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,720
Speaker 1: which I forgot about. It was a good throwback. Teashi

988
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,239
Speaker 1: p Henson's Mary Goodwin and Proud Mary. Sure least they're

989
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: on in Atomic Bond and a bunch of other things.

990
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 1: She's an assassin a lot, She's.

991
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 2: Assassin a lot.

992
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 3: Yes, she is Angelau she could.

993
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 2: Do it well and Angelia Jolie. I feel like they

994
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 2: actually could do it famous now but like being badasses

995
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 2: in general.

996
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 3: Yes. And then there's desk Strike Elektra.

997
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 1: I say that with a little because I think I

998
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 1: would argue whether or not she's assassin depending on which

999
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 1: piece of fiction you're reading. But anyway, Lucy Anna Ava

1000
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 1: and then Genesis, which I just wanted to throw in

1001
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 1: there is the favorite character I've ever written. And she

1002
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:29,839
Speaker 1: is weirdly an assassin slush by, but I love her

1003
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 1: and she's a hot mess and terrifying.

1004
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 2: I feel like all of them are kind of hot messages. Yeah,

1005
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:39,280
Speaker 2: so kind of just like, why are these lives so fascinating? Well,

1006
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,320
Speaker 2: We've looked at the many movies and characters that represent

1007
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 2: the world, and is obvious we can't get enough. They

1008
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 2: keep coming. I'm eatterly waiting full of Black Widow, Like,

1009
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 2: I'm so excited for it. And the one thing we

1010
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:54,399
Speaker 2: saw throughout our research was that many believe because women

1011
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 2: are seen as mild mannered and often either sexually or motherly,

1012
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:01,399
Speaker 2: therefore there couldn't be any possible threat from them. Right,

1013
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,839
Speaker 2: They're not real threats, which makes them even more effective.

1014
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1015
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 1: That was one of my favorite slash most annoying things.

1016
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 1: Watching Red Sparrow last night, it was how many times

1017
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 1: they were like, oh, you're a Sparrow, you can do

1018
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 1: like these really sexual things, right, but you're only doing

1019
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:17,160
Speaker 1: it for your spy thing, right, And then she does

1020
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:18,359
Speaker 1: it and they like fall for it.

1021
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 3: I'm like, but you just said you know what she is,

1022
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:23,279
Speaker 3: that she did it.

1023
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 2: And you're the dumb ones to volve for it.

1024
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 1: So okay, yes, yes, please listeners, let us know if

1025
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:33,399
Speaker 1: we miss anybody, if you want us to go into

1026
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 1: more detail on any of these characters or historical or fiction.

1027
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:40,359
Speaker 3: Either way, we would love to hear from you. All right.

1028
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 1: Email is Stephania mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You

1029
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 1: can find us on Instagram at stuff I'm Never Told You.

1030
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 1: We're on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always

1031
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 1: to our super producer Christina.

1032
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:51,279
Speaker 2: Thank you Christina, and.

1033
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:53,320
Speaker 1: Thanks to you for listening Stuff I've Never Told You.

1034
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 1: Prospection of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, it's dieheart

1035
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or reve you listen to your

1036
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 1: favorite shows the