Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios. Podcasts. Radio news.
Speaker 2: This is what the build up is to a World Cup.
Speaker 2: It's all about the problems. Then once it starts it
Speaker 2: focused on the football. It'll hopefully be eventful and entertaining
Speaker 2: and live up to expectations. I think it's more off
Speaker 2: the field. There are concerns is it just going to
Speaker 2: be purely corporate? Are we pricing out real supporters?
Speaker 1: Gary Lineker, podcaster and media boss. Have you got a
Speaker 1: guarantee from Netflix that if you want to criticize President
Speaker 1: Trump on air on Netflix through the podcast, that's okay
Speaker 1: with them.
Speaker 2: I've not asked them that question. We're doing a show
Speaker 2: every single day, so there will be some days where
Speaker 2: we might need something to talk about. But I'm hoping
Speaker 2: we don't have to, but I fear we might have to.
Speaker 1: From Bloomberg Weekend, this is the Mishal Husain show. I'm Mishal Husain.
Speaker 1: I'm going to say right at the outset here that
Speaker 1: when you hear the word football in this episode, which
Speaker 1: you will a lot, I don't mean American football, but
Speaker 1: what you might know as soccer. I'm afraid I have
Speaker 1: to stick to football because that's the way it is
Speaker 1: in my DNA, and that's how it is for my
Speaker 1: guest too, Gary Lineker, who was a top goal scorer
Speaker 1: for England before he moved from competitive sport to sports broadcasting.
Speaker 1: He went on to have a long career with the BBC,
Speaker 1: ending in a rather public falling out which you will
Speaker 1: hear us discuss. But now his own podcast, The Rest
Speaker 1: Is Football, is on Netflix every day of this World Cup,
Speaker 1: so I wanted him to take us into the atmosphere
Speaker 1: of a big moment like this, a tournament hosted by
Speaker 1: three countries, the US and Mexico, the fact that the
Speaker 1: organizers gave President Trump a Peace Prize, and then there's
Speaker 1: the commercialization of the game. And I don't just mean
Speaker 1: this World Cup, but the game in general clubs across Europe.
Speaker 1: By the way, Gary Lineker is really more podcast boss
Speaker 1: than mere podcaster because his company, Goalhanger, is right at
Speaker 1: the forefront of the audio industry. So that comes up too.
Speaker 1: We grabbed some time in his diary before he headed
Speaker 1: off to New York, and when he walked into the
Speaker 1: studio there was a copy of his book on the table,
Speaker 1: a twenty ten World Cup diary. His reaction wasn't what
Speaker 1: I imagined. Here's what happened. Actually, may seriously you don't
Speaker 1: remember this, Oh you better have a quick flick through
Speaker 1: it yourself. I'm maybe quoting bits of it at you.
Speaker 1: It was your World Cup, your World Cup diary that year.
Speaker 1: I did wonder why there was only one, because clearly
Speaker 1: you've been at plenty of World Cup since then, So
Speaker 1: maybe this is you've.
Speaker 2: I have no memory of that. That's the first time I
Speaker 2: think I've ever seen that book, or even when it
Speaker 2: came out. I didn't know it even did come up.
Speaker 2: I have no memory that I did that.
Speaker 1: You say, well, you definitely got talked into it. You
Speaker 1: say as much of the introduction. So here we are
Speaker 1: thanks to all that Simon and Schuster, particularly in Chapman,
Speaker 1: who took me out for lunch and persuaded me that
Speaker 1: this was a good idea. Oh an idea.
Speaker 2: Clearly, if you've forgotten, that's what happens when you get older.
Speaker 2: You forget everything.
Speaker 1: You were fifteen. You were fifteen years younger when this
Speaker 1: came out. So no desire to add books to the
Speaker 1: to the media empire.
Speaker 2: No, it's not.
Speaker 1: I guess I'd love to start Gary by just getting
Speaker 1: your expectations and thoughts on this particular World Cup because
Speaker 1: you've seen many. I think your first as a player
Speaker 1: was nineteen eighty six. Research well that much. I should
Speaker 1: have the starters, but you've seen them from different angles,
Speaker 1: so set the scene for this one for us.
Speaker 2: Well, football wise, I think once it gets underway, it'll
Speaker 2: hopefully be eventful and entertaining and live up to expectations.
Speaker 2: I think it's more off the field there are concerns,
Speaker 2: but that's been the case of every World Cup that
Speaker 2: I think have covered and played in. It's hard to
Speaker 2: remember them that long ago. But if even in eighty
Speaker 2: six it was the height of Mexican cartels and all
Speaker 2: that it was in Mexico, So nineteen ninety we had
Speaker 2: huge hooligans and problem and actually tried to pull us
Speaker 2: out on was at one point. So it's been ever
Speaker 2: thus in some ways, you know, even in recent times,
Speaker 2: you've got Brazil twenty fourteen, huge demonstrations on the streets
Speaker 2: and they shouldn't be spending this amount of money on
Speaker 2: you know, stadiums when they could be helping the infrastructure
Speaker 2: of the country. Then we got twenty eighteen, just four
Speaker 2: years before Russia's in Lady Crimea, So there's a lot
Speaker 2: of hulla below about that. Four years onto Qatar, you're
Speaker 2: talking about GBTQ rights, you know, people dying in the
Speaker 2: building of the stadiums, you know. So I'm used to this.
Speaker 2: This is what the build up is to a World Cup.
Speaker 2: It's all about the problems. Then once it starts, it
Speaker 2: focused on the football. But you know, there's a distinct
Speaker 2: possibility at the moment that the host nation, or one
Speaker 2: of the three host nations, the main host nation obviously America,
Speaker 2: could be at war with you know, one of the
Speaker 2: teams that are in the tournament.
Speaker 1: As things stand, Iran are coming, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Exactly, they are coming. So you know, we don't know
Speaker 2: from day to day what's going to happen. So yeah,
Speaker 2: this is a little bit different, but hopefully a little
Speaker 2: bit like I remember going in Russia and everything was
Speaker 2: cleaned up before they came, and a lot of the
Speaker 2: Russian people saying, this is the best it's ever been here,
Speaker 2: it's amazing, and so I'm hoping it'll be a little
Speaker 2: bit like that, and that I know, people like Ice
Speaker 2: are not taking fans off the streets. Well that's a.
Speaker 1: Good It's a good question, right, because there is that
Speaker 1: sense that it's possible that these you know, international gatherings
Speaker 1: of fans to watch. This is a place that I
Speaker 1: could be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and some reports that you know, some players are
Speaker 2: not getting visas. Hopefully it'll all will be okay for
Speaker 2: the World Cup. So I'm looking forward to actually the
Speaker 2: football started.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but this is the atmosphere that surrounds it. And
Speaker 1: there are other elements, for example, Journey and Fantino, FIFA's
Speaker 1: close friendship with Donald Trump. Do you think that has
Speaker 1: gone beyond the norm when a country is about to
Speaker 1: host the World Cup and the way that FIFA has
Speaker 1: to interact with that whose nation, I find it.
Speaker 2: Very peculiar and very odd. Actually I think we call
Speaker 2: him Sikofantino. Now I think that's new. But yeah, I
Speaker 2: think the whole thing, you know, the Peace Prize and
Speaker 2: all that sort of nonsense, and so it's it's a concern,
Speaker 2: you know, and other things like that. You know, the
Speaker 2: pricing of the tickets is astronomical compared with previous World Cups,
Speaker 2: and obviously you know, FIFA must be involved in the
Speaker 2: ticket pricing, et cetera. And they're supposed to be a
Speaker 2: non for profit organized you know. They they've got billions
Speaker 2: in the bank and it's supposed to go straight back
Speaker 2: into the sport. Hopefully it does. But the ticket pricing
Speaker 2: seems off the chart. It's going to be really, really expensive.
Speaker 2: And one of the great joys of a World Cup
Speaker 2: seeing all the Brazilian fans and the Argentinian fans and
Speaker 2: the African fans and you know, people of Senegal and
Speaker 2: and even from Europe, you know, the dots or turning
Speaker 2: up in you know, in Orange and et cetera. Are
Speaker 2: we going to see that? I don't know. Is it
Speaker 2: just going to be purely corporate? Are we pricing out
Speaker 2: real supporters? So there are a lot of concerns going
Speaker 2: into the World Cup. Illiterate what I said before. This
Speaker 2: has often been the case and once it, once it
Speaker 2: gets going, it's okay.
Speaker 1: So fingers crossed Jenny and Fantino and Donald Trump. The
Speaker 1: Peace Prize, which you mentioned, I want to just like
Speaker 1: fill in the blanks a bit for anyone who didn't
Speaker 1: follow that at the time. For me, well, the basics
Speaker 1: was that not long after Donald Trump did not win
Speaker 1: the Nobel Prize, it was announced that he was going
Speaker 1: to win a FIFA Peace Prize.
Speaker 2: It was the most peculiar. I just don't understand why.
Speaker 2: I think it was partly eager.
Speaker 1: Who's ego into Yeah, and.
Speaker 2: He wanted to do something, and you know, obviously he
Speaker 2: seems to be cozy up very much to the President
Speaker 2: of the United States, you know, fair enough, but I
Speaker 2: thought that was a step too far. I mean, who's
Speaker 2: going to win it? For a years time?
Speaker 1: Someone at the time he said that Donald Trump deserved
Speaker 1: to win this prize, but there was clearly a kind
Speaker 1: of lack of transparency around what the criteria were.
Speaker 2: I'd love to know what the criteria was.
Speaker 1: Is this these questions that you can ask on air
Speaker 1: on the podcast because the rest of his football is
Speaker 1: going to be on Netflix every day through the World Cup,
Speaker 1: do you envisage talking about this kind of thing?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? I would think so. Yeah. I don't think there'll
Speaker 2: be any doubt that we can talk about whatever. That's
Speaker 2: the beautiful podcast you're doing one now you can go
Speaker 2: where you want.
Speaker 1: But it's new, isn't it Netflix putting a podcast like
Speaker 1: yours on and I just wondered that there's going to
Speaker 1: be a different vibe or even different understanding with them.
Speaker 2: Netflix have said to us the reason that they wanted
Speaker 2: our podcast to give them a part of the World
Speaker 2: Cup that they didn't have four years ago because they
Speaker 2: liked the way it was. So we'll have a lot
Speaker 2: of fun. We'll talk a lot about football, but will
Speaker 2: naturally discuss, you know, if ordinary fans can't get in,
Speaker 2: or if there's any issues going on outside. We're doing
Speaker 2: a show every single day, so there will be some days,
Speaker 2: well we might need something to talk about, but I'm
Speaker 2: hoping we don't have to, but I fear we might
Speaker 2: have to.
Speaker 1: But have you have have you got a guarantee from
Speaker 1: Netflix that if you want to criticize President Trump on
Speaker 1: Netflix through the podcast, that's okay with them because the
Speaker 1: American media is in a funny place overall.
Speaker 2: On that topic, Well, I've not asked them that question,
Speaker 2: but I suspect that it'll be okay.
Speaker 1: This is the backdrop to the tournament, Well it is.
Speaker 2: At the moment, but it was the same I remember
Speaker 2: with Putin in twenty eighteen. But once the tournament started,
Speaker 2: there's so many as four football matches a day, so
Speaker 2: hopefully there won't be any issues to talk about.
Speaker 1: But if there is, of course we will, And how
Speaker 1: do you feel about it being this long stretch, longer
Speaker 1: tournament than usual, bigger tournament than usual, the fact that
Speaker 1: there's going to be forty eight teams this time, because
Speaker 1: I've heard people say Infantino himself that means it's more inclusive,
Speaker 1: teams are making their World Cup debut, and other people
Speaker 1: saying it's a money grab, it just shouldn't be that big.
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's a bit of both. There is
Speaker 2: part of me that says there are players and countries
Speaker 2: that will have an opportunity to play in a World
Speaker 2: Cup which they would never have been able to do.
Speaker 2: That's a real positive. The number of games that the
Speaker 2: players are going to be asked to play in tough
Speaker 2: conditions will be really difficult demanding players. At some point
Speaker 2: they've got to give somewhere. With footballers, they played too
Speaker 2: many games and it's just the fill in the calendar.
Speaker 2: There's no break at all. So in this World Cup,
Speaker 2: it's not the fact that you've got more teams necessary,
Speaker 2: but the way they've structured it is that we now
Speaker 2: have a round of thirty two. So after the group stages,
Speaker 2: where pretty much it's pretty much impossible for any really
Speaker 2: good team not to get through to the knockout stage.
Speaker 2: But I actually quite like an extra round in that
Speaker 2: sense because there's more drama, there's more jeopardy. Because the
Speaker 2: group stages, I think frankly then never you'll get the
Speaker 2: odd upset, but generally the best teams will go through,
Speaker 2: and I think that would be the same. I think
Speaker 2: a lot of the interest in the group stages will
Speaker 2: be the smaller nations playing for the first time. Got
Speaker 2: us out and contries like that, and Jordan and there
Speaker 2: are a lot of others, and I think that'll be special.
Speaker 2: But I think the World Cup will really start once
Speaker 2: she gets to the last th two.
Speaker 1: But also the logistics, the distances involved, and the borders,
Speaker 1: because you are talking about a World Cup over three
Speaker 1: countries much Canada, Yeah, exactly, so I'm not sure that's
Speaker 1: happened before.
Speaker 2: We've had two South Korea in Japan shared it, and
Speaker 2: the next one will be three as well, and to Morocco,
Speaker 2: Spain and Portugal. I mean, it's predominantly in the States.
Speaker 1: Certainly the finals in the States.
Speaker 2: There are a lot of way more matches in the States,
Speaker 2: but America's a very, very large country, but they've had
Speaker 2: a World Cup there before, so that travel is not
Speaker 2: too problematical. But yeah, logistically it will be difficult for
Speaker 2: both the teams, the players and people covering it as
Speaker 2: well well.
Speaker 1: Exactly so for you, people in the UK will know
Speaker 1: you for being the voice on the BBC of football
Speaker 1: over such a long time. You're now going to have
Speaker 1: this global audience and you're going to cover it for
Speaker 1: the duration wherever the tournament goes. How different an experience
Speaker 1: is it going to be for you?
Speaker 2: It will be quite different, although we've got I think
Speaker 2: we've got a sort of smidgeon of the experience in
Speaker 2: Berlin and the Euros two years ago. But obviously this
Speaker 2: is a much higher end production because not only is
Speaker 2: it a podcast, it's also going to be, you know,
Speaker 2: a TV show that goes out sort of as live.
Speaker 2: Will be recording most of the shows in the evening,
Speaker 2: so it's it's a lot of work, slightly daunting, but
Speaker 2: incredibly exciting. There's a lot of planning. We've been planning
Speaker 2: for a long time. We've got loads of great guests
Speaker 2: which I can't say yet, but you know, our bass
Speaker 2: studio is right above Times Square. I'm really genuinely, it's
Speaker 2: something different from me as well. Obviously I've covered lord
Speaker 2: knows how many World Cups for everyone since ninety four
Speaker 2: and played in the two previous ones, so I've covered
Speaker 2: them all. But this will be different. Obviously we don't
Speaker 2: have the football, We're not showing any of the games,
Speaker 2: but the BBC and IT they have the rights to
Speaker 2: show the matches. Such as the nature of the World
Speaker 2: Cup and the way the rights are sold, and they're
Speaker 2: sold to inter dual countries obviously all around the world
Speaker 2: where they buy the rights, I can't see the World Cup.
Speaker 2: Who knows. The way the world is changing, the way
Speaker 2: television is changing, whether one entity, whether it be a
Speaker 2: you know, Netflix or Amazon or whoever, could buy the
Speaker 2: whole World Cup rights to show everywhere. But it'll be lighthearted,
Speaker 2: it will be fun and sometimes it'll be serious.
Speaker 1: You know what it reminds me of hearing you talk
Speaker 1: about it is when you did the Olympics in twenty twelve,
Speaker 1: because you and I were both part of the BBC lineup,
Speaker 1: not together at different points in the day. But I
Speaker 1: think that was a moment for you where you were
Speaker 1: going beyond football for the first time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd done golf and I also worked on I
Speaker 2: worked on the Olympics in was it ninety was the
Speaker 2: one in Atlanta? Was it ninety six? And that was
Speaker 2: kind of my first role and I that was an
Speaker 2: interesting experience because I wasn't ready really but I had
Speaker 2: the night shift anyway, No I was watching, but that's
Speaker 2: good place Olympic. I was doing the primetime show and
Speaker 2: it was and it was I mean, I had to
Speaker 2: do some studying for that.
Speaker 1: I mean because I remember the book they gave us.
Speaker 1: They gave us like a massive farm like that for
Speaker 1: the World Cup every time you've seen it before the football,
Speaker 1: and I never really read.
Speaker 2: I know football, I know the players. I watched million
Speaker 2: games a year, but with the Olympics, I had to
Speaker 2: do so much research into not necessary the people involved
Speaker 2: in them, but actually how the sports worked, because you
Speaker 2: can't go on a show like that and not know
Speaker 2: you stuff. But it was quite funny because I'd go
Speaker 2: in early, we'd watch the games all day and we
Speaker 2: were doing really well, really successful. And what happened is
Speaker 2: because we I think the prime we did seven o'clock
Speaker 2: till ten o'clock and we'd get guests in someone who
Speaker 2: won the gold medal that day, or you know, the
Speaker 2: early days, it was someone who won a medal. Then
Speaker 2: it became so successful it was who won gold medals.
Speaker 2: And we were in there one night and I had
Speaker 2: nine separate interviews and you didn't really know who we're
Speaker 2: going to get until late on because some people are
Speaker 2: pulled out and cancer. Somebody wo win a gold medal,
Speaker 2: and they brushed them into the studio and I remember
Speaker 2: i'd four lads were brought in sat next to me
Speaker 2: and we got about thirty seconds to go, and the
Speaker 2: floor manager, Chris, I looked at them and I went
Speaker 2: to help help he and he went, I don't know.
Speaker 2: And as I was introducing them, they were telling me
Speaker 2: their names in their ear and it was like what
Speaker 2: they do? Meanwhile they want a gold medal.
Speaker 1: Meanwhile they're completely starstruck because they're sitting on the looking
Speaker 1: at you.
Speaker 2: But you know, I do it.
Speaker 1: I do remember for the same because I was on
Speaker 1: in the morning, so very far away from primetime. But
Speaker 1: I also remember at one point taekwondo coming on and
Speaker 1: realizing there was a moment where I had to talk
Speaker 1: over the live pictures of taekwondo and frantically trying to
Speaker 1: look up the relevance and that book. I can tell
Speaker 1: you that now there was buried somewhere in that file.
Speaker 1: But I also remember once the speaking of the medal winners,
Speaker 1: the brilliant women rowers came on, who had done all
Speaker 1: the rowers did really well, And I was talking to
Speaker 1: Catherine Granger, who's now very.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 1: Yeah they were, I mean, they were very much into
Speaker 1: mad but they came.
Speaker 2: Your interview is much better.
Speaker 1: They came on, and at one point I very very
Speaker 1: foolishly said to Catherine Granger that I had once rode
Speaker 1: at university. And when my husband heard me say this,
Speaker 1: he was like, that was the most embarrassing question you
Speaker 1: ever asked. That is like saying to Gary Lineker, I
Speaker 1: once played football.
Speaker 2: And.
Speaker 1: If it's embarrassing, And I thought, yeah it was. It
Speaker 1: was nothing like that, but it was a very long
Speaker 1: time ago. But it was a very lame thing to
Speaker 1: bring up. So but yeah, medal winners, it's fantastic, it's
Speaker 1: their moment. It was not a fed how dare you?
Speaker 2: It's not a head.
Speaker 1: But I wasn't very good, as probably you can expect.
Speaker 1: I do want to ask you about the trend with
Speaker 1: funding and investment in English clubs over the last two decades.
Speaker 1: Because you've seen this, it's not just the individual wealthy owners,
Speaker 1: it's now the sovereign wealth funds and private equity and
Speaker 1: asset managers of all kinds. What is the impact do
Speaker 1: you think of this on the game.
Speaker 2: It does concern me, I think, particularly once we went
Speaker 2: down the line of sovereign states. But that train has
Speaker 2: left the station, so it's difficult. It's an odd one.
Speaker 2: I mean, most of our football club's are owned by Americans.
Speaker 2: Premier League teams are owned by Americans, you know, billionaires,
Speaker 2: which is odd considering it's not their sport.
Speaker 1: Really becoming more their sport though you can well see
Speaker 1: that in demand for growing for tickets, the interest is growing.
Speaker 2: It's funny that American friends and they going, do you
Speaker 2: think we've got a good chance? Some kind zero chance?
Speaker 2: They went, what do you mean, so you've got zero chance?
Speaker 1: Sorry, any Americans, someone has to break it to them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's better to know, because it's the hope that
Speaker 2: destroys you.
Speaker 1: We've learned that, we've learned that they're young in footballing terms. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but there is an Americanism around the around the World Cup.
Speaker 1: Isn't there that there's dynamic pricing, probably trying to make
Speaker 1: the whole model more like American football or American sports
Speaker 1: more widely.
Speaker 2: That's concerning I think. I mean I mentioned it earlier,
Speaker 2: but the ticket price, ticket pricing, just if you're pricing
Speaker 2: out real fans completely, that's not going to be the
Speaker 2: same World Cup. So let's see what transpires. But it's
Speaker 2: a serious concern for me.
Speaker 1: And going back to the English Premier League clubs, is
Speaker 1: the impact of money of that kind and from those
Speaker 1: quarters flowing in that players start to be treated more
Speaker 1: as commodities or was that always the case.
Speaker 2: Well, it's better than it used to be. The players
Speaker 2: that actually have quite a bit of control now on
Speaker 2: things and obviously earned huge amounts huge, huge salaries. But
Speaker 2: when I was playing, you know, you're basically a piece
Speaker 2: of meat. You could be sold anywhere, and they basically
Speaker 2: threatened you that you you're planning the reserves if you
Speaker 2: don't go. So they actually have more power than they
Speaker 2: used to and obviously a lot more money, so you know,
Speaker 2: it's probably gone a bit out of control in some ways.
Speaker 2: But it's football's big business now, huge business.
Speaker 1: I do wonder if doing the work up on Netflix
Speaker 1: means something to you personally, because when you finally left
Speaker 1: the BBC, did you think that that kind of spotlight
Speaker 1: wouldn't be on you anymore? I mean, you're doing the
Speaker 1: rest is Football and your media boss now, but does
Speaker 1: it mean something to you to be in demand for Well?
Speaker 2: I knew you'll be covering this World Cup, didn't know
Speaker 2: quite how. I knew we'd do the podcast. I think
Speaker 2: our intention was to go out anyway, so I knew
Speaker 2: i'd be covering it. But the Netflix thing obviously is
Speaker 2: really exciting, which I wouldn't have been able to do.
Speaker 2: I feel really chuffed actually in a way. I mean,
Speaker 2: obviously I was with the BBC a long time, and
Speaker 2: you know, I think it was like a long marriage.
Speaker 2: In the end, we just kind of got fed up
Speaker 2: with each other, so so I had, you know, I left,
Speaker 2: and at that point I was going to host the
Speaker 2: World Cup for them. That was going to be my
Speaker 2: kind of last Turrah. But I've ended up now doing
Speaker 2: it for Netflix now being New York and the BBC
Speaker 2: inexplicably based in Salford for the World Cup, which I
Speaker 2: don't understand. And if I'd have been the main presenter.
Speaker 2: I would have been banging doors down.
Speaker 1: About that Greater Manchester essentially at the BBC Sports Base,
Speaker 1: not sending the anchors to the World Cup year.
Speaker 2: I mean, the commentation wud be there and the co
Speaker 2: commentators obviously, and you know they may if England go
Speaker 2: really well, they may go out to the semi or
Speaker 2: the final or something. I suppose. But yeah, I just
Speaker 2: I wouldn't. I wouldn't have been happy. So for me,
Speaker 2: it's it's turned out. It's turned out really well and
Speaker 2: I'm still talking about football.
Speaker 1: So that long marriage with the BBC. Do you regret
Speaker 1: the way it came to an end?
Speaker 2: I regret, Yeah, I think it was unfortunate. You know,
Speaker 2: just to explain that, there's an Instagram post that was
Speaker 2: was talking about the Israeli issue, iism, et cetera, and
Speaker 2: then I missed it. But there was a little rat
Speaker 2: emoji on the post that I put on my story
Speaker 2: and no one noticed for about seventeen hours and then
Speaker 2: then somebody did, and then it you know, I apologize
Speaker 2: because apparently it has you know, connotations around you know,
Speaker 2: Jewish tropes, and that's not something I would ever do.
Speaker 2: And I would never imagine for a minute that any
Speaker 2: kind of human being should be compared with the rat.
Speaker 2: So it was really unfortunate. I apologize, I thought, and
Speaker 2: then I apologized again. Thought that should probably be enough,
Speaker 2: but it wasn't. And in the end I just thought, oh,
Speaker 2: come on, let's just end this. You know, we're not
Speaker 2: getting on very well at the moment. I don't think
Speaker 2: anybody anybody thought that I did that deliberately. I mean,
Speaker 2: I am stupid, but I'm not that stupid, so I
Speaker 2: don't think anyone really did. So I regret the manner
Speaker 2: of that, and it was you know, it's unfortunate, and
Speaker 2: if it upset anyone, I remain sorry to this day.
Speaker 2: But it was certainly not deliberate.
Speaker 1: And in that period that time, after the first few hours,
Speaker 1: what's happening, Like there's a flurry of phone calls to you,
Speaker 1: to your agent, Like what was the experience actually, Like
Speaker 1: I was.
Speaker 2: Actually just going down to Bournemouth to do an interview
Speaker 2: for the podcast and I was in I was in
Speaker 2: the car, my son was driving, and the phone went
Speaker 2: and it was my agent. You said, We've just had
Speaker 2: a call from the Beeb and they said, there's there's
Speaker 2: you posted something with a rat emoji that is supposedly
Speaker 2: a Jewish trope, and I went, no, I haven't it
Speaker 2: went he says, I've just looked there is one on there?
Speaker 2: Went really, So then I checked and I just went out.
Speaker 2: So I thought, oh, this is not good, so immediately
Speaker 2: deleted it and this should an apology and then it
Speaker 2: went obviously up and above and it looked like it's
Speaker 2: gonna be all right for a few days. But actually
Speaker 2: now maybe it was for the best, not the way
Speaker 2: it happened, but the freedom. And it's just like you
Speaker 2: weight the world's off your shoulders and not treading on
Speaker 2: eggshells anymore when you were. It's very difficult at the
Speaker 2: BBC the last few years, the way the goalposts have
Speaker 2: moved as well. I know in using Current Affairs, you've
Speaker 2: always had that thing where you've got to be really
Speaker 2: careful and you've got to be evenly balanced, and but
Speaker 2: that never applied to anyone outside news and Current Affairs
Speaker 2: until they decided to move the goal post. And I'd
Speaker 2: already been on social media a few years and I
Speaker 2: have you know, I have views, I have views, And
Speaker 2: then suddenly they said, well you can't have any views anymore.
Speaker 2: So and I just thought, well, well, no, there's nothing
Speaker 2: in my contract about that.
Speaker 1: And do you think that is because of the power
Speaker 1: of the right leaning press. I wonder if you'd had
Speaker 1: strong views for Brexit or you know, for strong policies
Speaker 1: against immigration or that kind of thing, whether you think
Speaker 1: you would ever have gotten into the same kind because
Speaker 1: there was because there was a whole lot of things
Speaker 1: before this, before Gaza, that certain papers were going before.
Speaker 2: Exactly, you know, and basically there have always been humanitarian issues.
Speaker 2: I mean, I gave my opinion on I just told
Speaker 2: people I was voting not to leave, to stay, to remain.
Speaker 2: That was and it nearly forgot the word nice ten years. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so and that was it. I never told anyone else
Speaker 2: what to do. But that was probably the first time
Speaker 2: I'd ever aired any kind of political views. And then
Speaker 2: subsequently it's always been humanitarian issues. And I think that's
Speaker 2: different to politics, or well, politics is in everything. So
Speaker 2: you know when they say, you know, just stick to
Speaker 2: your football and stay out of politics, well there's a
Speaker 2: lot of politics in football as well, so you can
Speaker 2: you can't have it always, but yeah, it was it
Speaker 2: was a difficult time. We kind of grew a little
Speaker 2: bit apart. If I'd have been even said anything sort
Speaker 2: of islamophobic or seemingly that way, I don't think it
Speaker 2: would be treated in the same way, particularly by some
Speaker 2: of the newspapers who seem pretty obsessed.
Speaker 1: See, in the time since your media business, Goalhanger has
Speaker 1: got more and more successful, even in the even in
Speaker 1: this year since you've fully left the BBC, and it
Speaker 1: had a record breaking year last year, and amongst the
Speaker 1: stable are podcast like the rest is politics, And I
Speaker 1: just wondered if there's anything that you see slightly differently now,
Speaker 1: like could you imagine as Goalhanger presumably continues to grow
Speaker 1: ever having rules for your host that go any way
Speaker 1: towards what you had the BBC.
Speaker 2: Oh no, no, we don't. We're not cursed with that
Speaker 2: at the BBC are cursed. I mean, it's very, very
Speaker 2: difficult because people will always see bias, but generally the
Speaker 2: bias is their own, so you can't win, you know.
Speaker 2: I love the BBC. I think it's it's still an
Speaker 2: amazing institution. It's got its issues, got its problems, and
Speaker 2: some of them are right at the top at the moment,
Speaker 2: and if you know, if you want impartiality, it has
Speaker 2: to start the top, and it's not right there at
Speaker 2: the moment. I don't believe that's my personal view. But
Speaker 2: when we come to goal hanger, it's completely up to
Speaker 2: them what they talk about. We've got posts that know
Speaker 2: their stuff and sometimes they'll have strong views and they
Speaker 2: don't have to be balanced all the time, cause I
Speaker 2: think it's really important that it should be just the truth. Obviously,
Speaker 2: you don't want to put out there things that lead
Speaker 2: people astray, and you've got to be kind of careful
Speaker 2: with that. But we never ever tell them what to say.
Speaker 1: Or there's no do you suggest how about doing such
Speaker 1: and such period in history or person on leading. All
Speaker 1: the rest is following. You're a media boss, now.
Speaker 2: Well I am. Yeah, I know, but I don't feel
Speaker 2: like one. It's been a crazy ride, it really has.
Speaker 1: It is a form of power, and you are a
Speaker 1: very politically aware, a student engaged person. Do you relish
Speaker 1: having that power?
Speaker 2: Don't? I don't see it like that. I'd relish what
Speaker 2: we're giving to people and the amount of enjoyment that
Speaker 2: people are getting from our podcasts, and I'd find that
Speaker 2: really really inspiring.
Speaker 1: It's interesting to think how almost full circle it is.
Speaker 1: So Golhanger started in the kind of meat you thought
Speaker 1: would be in sports documentaries, and then then who knew
Speaker 1: that audio would have this incredible growth. But now all
Speaker 1: audio is visualized going back again.
Speaker 2: It's time of full cycle in a way. But still
Speaker 2: at the majority of our our listeners, or well they
Speaker 2: are listeners because.
Speaker 1: Just the members, do you now the old business model
Speaker 1: is all about the members.
Speaker 2: Partly because you know, you never know with advertising stuff.
Speaker 2: So yeah, we've got a lot of members clubs and
Speaker 2: each most of the podcast not done one for football yet.
Speaker 2: I think we hopefully launched that after the World Cup.
Speaker 2: Possibly we've had a bit on a hands lately last Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's it's yeah. Business wise, it's mad. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: incredibly successful, and you know, we just we're just kind
Speaker 2: of creatives. We don't really know what we're doing, but
Speaker 2: we've blagged it.
Speaker 1: Well, you've kickstarted or played a huge role in the
Speaker 1: growth of an entire industry in which I'm hoping that
Speaker 1: there's room for the younger, newer entrance, not younger in
Speaker 1: age new entries.
Speaker 2: Definitely younger in age, definitely well that's it. There's plenty
Speaker 2: of room. It's not like you've got a television schedule,
Speaker 2: is it. We've got IV against BBC and you go,
Speaker 2: oh there we're up again. Strictly, we've got no chance.
Speaker 2: With the podcasting. You just do it in you know,
Speaker 2: just particularly from the audible side of things. You just
Speaker 2: you can do it on the dog walk or I
Speaker 2: do it when I'm cooking, and all the time I
Speaker 2: have to keep up to date with all that podcast.
Speaker 1: But one more question on this, which is I do
Speaker 1: wonder what if it ends up eating the news business journalism.
Speaker 1: What if already loads of people will form their worldview
Speaker 1: from the rest is politics and the rest is history,
Speaker 1: and they'll be they might well be turning straight to
Speaker 1: opinion rather than getting their news elsewhere. It's the creator economy.
Speaker 1: What happens if it destroys journalism in its traditional sense,
Speaker 1: I think.
Speaker 2: Not highly unlikely. I think journalism will always be there.
Speaker 2: It might move slightly, but I think it's hard to
Speaker 2: imagine that. I mean, there's so much news going on.
Speaker 2: I don't think you could.
Speaker 1: The money is probably on your side rather than no,
Speaker 1: I'm not putting money into news.
Speaker 2: Not so much. I don't know. I mean, television is changing, obviously,
Speaker 2: it's shifting a little bit more towards streaming, but it's
Speaker 2: still you know, it's still alive. It's still live and kicking,
Speaker 2: and there's a lot of you know, people still listen
Speaker 2: to radio and get their news in different ways. You know,
Speaker 2: there's still a large percentage of people have not discovered
Speaker 2: podcasts yet either, so particularly the elderly like me, like
Speaker 2: may I've got my bus passed now and I think
Speaker 2: so so. But I you know, I got into it early, thankfully,
Speaker 2: when I was in my mid fifties, not my mid sixties.
Speaker 1: I can't let you go without asking you about England. England,
Speaker 1: not the country, the team, the men's team, because this
Speaker 1: year it's sixty years since at a senior level the
Speaker 1: men first one sixty years have heard since they last
Speaker 1: won a major tournament. And I'm just keen to understand
Speaker 1: from you why you think that is, Like, how can
Speaker 1: we have this immense disconnect between that length of time
Speaker 1: without a major title and true where football is so alive,
Speaker 1: which has got one of the most successful domestic leads
Speaker 1: in the world.
Speaker 2: While there are a number of reasons we want to
Speaker 2: work up in sixty six when it was in our
Speaker 2: own country. It's the only time it's been here, and
Speaker 2: that does give you an advantage. But since then a
Speaker 2: lot of reasons. One, our development of young players was
Speaker 2: appalling up until probably fifteen years ago, and it started
Speaker 2: to change. You know, it's all we used to play
Speaker 2: on full sized pitches. No one and the rest of
Speaker 2: the world could understand it. We us played little kids
Speaker 2: of like eight, nine, ten, eleven on full sized pitches.
Speaker 2: So what you do then you get the kid that
Speaker 2: was the biggest and strongest at the back that could
Speaker 2: well it, and we never really learned to play. That
Speaker 2: has changed so and that is the reason now where
Speaker 2: are actually competitive in tournaments these days, because we are
Speaker 2: producing a lot more talent. We have had spells where
Speaker 2: we've produced talented players, but we've never been tactically clever
Speaker 2: because we weren't brought up the right way. These are
Speaker 2: the reasons that I think in recent years we've been
Speaker 2: knocking on the door. You know, we've got what we've done.
Speaker 2: We've got two finals, semi final and quarter final, and
Speaker 2: we've been really really close, as close as you can
Speaker 2: get with the penalty shootout. So you know that is
Speaker 2: because we are producing better players again now and we
Speaker 2: can compete, but it's worth pointing out it's very, very
Speaker 2: very difficult to win a World Cup. There are a
Speaker 2: lot of great football in nations and that you end
Speaker 2: up having to play. I mean the last World Cup.
Speaker 2: You know, I thought we were the better team against France,
Speaker 2: but we lost. You know, I played in nineteen ninety.
Speaker 2: I thought we were the better team in the semi
Speaker 2: final and we lost on penalties. So it's it's tiny margins.
Speaker 2: But if you keep banging on the door like England
Speaker 2: are doing. And I'm not overly confident for this particular
Speaker 2: World Cup, but fancies in the Euros in two years
Speaker 2: time because it's in the UK and Ireland, so they'll
Speaker 2: have half a chance.
Speaker 1: But I do wonder whether you think there is a
Speaker 1: link to domestic football, because is it the case that
Speaker 1: the saying for your country isn't regarded by the clubs
Speaker 1: as that important and the players are not necessarily there
Speaker 1: to train with the team and their teammates to the
Speaker 1: extent they should be.
Speaker 2: No, it's not that the players absolutely have a massive
Speaker 2: desire to play for their country. It's the biggest honor
Speaker 2: you can get they're desperate to play for clubs like it, no,
Speaker 2: but they don't like it in Italy, either in France
Speaker 2: or Spain or Argentina or Brazil. You know, you know,
Speaker 2: it's something that clubs have to do. They have to
Speaker 2: let their players go for the national team a few
Speaker 2: times a year. The one thing that is hard for
Speaker 2: us is that our league is incredibly competitive and incredibly physical.
Speaker 2: Not as physical as it used to be, but it's
Speaker 2: still very physical and we play a lot of football
Speaker 2: and we don't really help ourselves in terms of World Cups,
Speaker 2: et cetera. I know a lot of the players from
Speaker 2: around the world are in our league as well now,
Speaker 2: but it is it is tough for them going out,
Speaker 2: but they've got a bit of time. And I think
Speaker 2: the fact that England don't play until about a week
Speaker 2: into the tournament is all quite helpful because I think
Speaker 2: I've spoken to Thomas Tuckle and he's going to give
Speaker 2: them a good break week's holiday or so and I
Speaker 2: think that will recharge the batteries. And you never know
Speaker 2: it's going to happen one I just want it to
Speaker 2: happen before I die.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because your own experiences at the World Cup. They
Speaker 1: were life changing, right in nineteen eighty six as a
Speaker 1: goal scorer, and then in nineteen ninety you wouldn't have
Speaker 1: had your broadcasting career without being so prominent and so
Speaker 1: loved as a player for England.
Speaker 2: You know, you get those letters and I'm sure you
Speaker 2: get them the same or used to be letters. Now
Speaker 2: it's messages, et cetera, just saying how do I get
Speaker 2: into broadcasting? How do to get And I always say
Speaker 2: the same thing. I said, you know, try local radio,
Speaker 2: hospital radio, newspapers, local newspapers, or score loads of goals
Speaker 2: for England. I took the latter, but it's not quite
Speaker 2: not so easy, but it is true, and I know
Speaker 2: that would have happened. I mean ninety six, sorry eighty six,
Speaker 2: God is forty years ago, not thirty eighty six changed
Speaker 2: everything for me. I mean I'd gone five six games
Speaker 2: with that goal. We lost our opening game against Portugal,
Speaker 2: we drew against Morocco. We needed to win, and one
Speaker 2: game changed my life, really poland hat trick after that too,
Speaker 2: more against Paraguay and the goal no one remembers in
Speaker 2: the hand of God game but I want a golden
Speaker 2: boot and I moved to Barcelona off the back of
Speaker 2: everything suddenly different. And that's what World Cups can do.
Speaker 1: I wonder who'll be the Gary Lineker of this of
Speaker 1: this World Cup on the on the field, there'll be
Speaker 1: someone who might well have a similar life changes English.
Speaker 1: You you've got a new you've got a new groove
Speaker 1: with new groove, I mean a new professional professional groove
Speaker 1: as in with with the rest of is football game
Speaker 1: to Netflix. So do you think you've got a lot
Speaker 1: more World Cups in you?
Speaker 2: I just hope I've got a few more years. And
Speaker 2: what do they say, I use a football in cliche.
Speaker 2: We'll take one World Cup at a time, I hope.
Speaker 2: So I just want to see his win more that
Speaker 2: that sinner. That's always what I've wanted to wanted to see.
Speaker 2: I was five years old when we went in sixty
Speaker 2: six and I have no memory of that, zero memory,
Speaker 2: So that would be nice. But I hopefully there's a
Speaker 2: bit of laughing the ard dog. Yeah, will you sort
Speaker 2: of keep.
Speaker 1: In the rest of his football game until that I
Speaker 1: can see you, like in twenty years time, still doing
Speaker 1: it in case England when and you can be there
Speaker 1: to talk about.
Speaker 2: It twenty years time, maybe who knows. I don't know.
Speaker 2: Maybe Alan and Micah have something to say about that.
Speaker 1: Gary Lineker, thank you so much, my pleasure, and that's
Speaker 1: how the conversation ended. We did turn to FIFA afterwards
Speaker 1: and asked if they'd like to comment on Gary saying Gianni Infantino
Speaker 1: is cozying up to Donald Trump. They declined, but they
Speaker 1: directed us to an interview where Infantino described what he
Speaker 1: called his friendship with the President and on World Cup
Speaker 1: ticket prices. FIFA say they are focused on ensuring fair
Speaker 1: access and so to the team this week. The producers
Speaker 1: are Jessica Beck and Chris Martlew with guest booking by
Speaker 1: Elan Bird, and the video producers were Andy Hayward and
Speaker 1: Megan Olsen. Social media is by Alex Morgan. Audio mixing
Speaker 1: was by Richard Ward. Jennifer Sealy is our production assistant
Speaker 1: and our music is by Bart Warshaw. The executive producer
Speaker 1: is Louisa Lewis and at Bloomberg Weekend thanks to Brendan
Speaker 1: Francis Newnam and our executive editor Katherine Bell. Until next time, goodbye.