1 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: They took the crime scene DNA evidence which didn't match me, 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: and put it in the DNA data bank and it 3 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: matched it hit It matched the actual perpetrator whose DNA 4 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: was in that data bank. Because left free while I 5 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: was doing time for his crime, he killed a second 6 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 1: victim just three and a half years later, who was 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: a school teacher and had two children. 8 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 2: The very thing we talked about happening happened, which is yes, 9 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 2: by railroading you. They ignored that there was a murder 10 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 2: on the loose, and he did it again. Oh my goodness. 11 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 1: So on September twentieth, two thousand and six, the convictions 12 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: of returned I was released. I went back to court 13 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: November two, two thousand and six, at which point all 14 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: the charges were dismissed against me on actual innocence grounds, 15 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: and he was subsequently arrested and convicted of the crime. 16 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 2: Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. 17 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 2: I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, a father, I'm 18 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 2: an entrepreneur, and I've been a football coach an inner 19 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 2: city Memphis. And the last part it accidentally led to 20 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 2: an oscar for the film about our football team. It's 21 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 2: called undefeated guys. I believe our country's problems will never 22 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 2: be solved by a bunch of fancy people in nice 23 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 2: suits using big words that nobody ever uses on CNN 24 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 2: and Fox, but rather by an army of normal folks US, 25 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 2: just you and me deciding hey, I can help. That's 26 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 2: what Jeff Deskovic, the voice we just heard, has done. 27 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 2: At sixteen years old, Jeff was wrongfully convicted of raping 28 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 2: and murdering a classmate, despite overwhelming evidence that he was innocent, 29 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 2: and after serving sixteen years for crime that he did 30 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 2: not commit, Jeff was finally exonerated, and rather than being 31 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 2: dominated by anger or as he puts it, victimhood that 32 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 2: no one would have blamed him for it all, he 33 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 2: went to work fight him for the freedom of others 34 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 2: who'd been wrongfully convicted. He has already freed eleven people. 35 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 2: I cannot wait for you to meet Jeff. Right after 36 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 2: these brief messages from our Genner sponsors, Jeff Deskovic from 37 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 2: the Bronx all the way from New York down here 38 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 2: to Memphis. How are you? 39 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:52,359 Speaker 1: I'm great? How did you be here? 40 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 2: How's the flight in? 41 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: Uh? Scary? I thought I was going to die on it. 42 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: The plane like for about what seemed to me to 43 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: be ten minutes is you know, up and down movement 44 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: on the plane, and you know, I thought it was 45 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: close for ten minutes and I thought I was gonna die. 46 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 1: My stomach got upset. Then I felt too hot, so 47 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: I turned on double air, you know, for me and 48 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: the passenger next to me, and that helped the warming part. 49 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: But then I quickly got cold, so it was short 50 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: of fatality. 51 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 2: This was like the airplane trip from Hell. We were 52 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,799 Speaker 2: seventy six degrees yesterday and we're gonna be thirty three 53 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 2: to day. So I guess the Hogll low pressure systems 54 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 2: probably created a lot of turbulines all the way down 55 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 2: from New York and you were the beneficiary of all that. Well, 56 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 2: thanks for making it. Yeah, absolutely, you didn't have to 57 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 2: use a little bag in front of you. 58 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: No, thank god it didn't come to that, although I 59 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: felt I wasn't that far away from it, just to 60 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: be clear. 61 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 2: Don't know, don't know if you paid any attention while 62 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 2: you were getting over your green gills coming into the 63 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 2: Crosstown concourse. But you're in the Memphis Listening Lab, which 64 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 2: is a cool thing that goes back to as you know, 65 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 2: I've assume you know Memphis is Elvis Presley, Jerry Lee 66 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 2: Lewis and a lot of rich Memphis heritage music, and 67 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 2: Memphis Listening Lab is where we're recording from and kind 68 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 2: of cool digs it. 69 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: Really really is. I'm I'm a historian and I'm also nostalgic, 70 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 1: so I'm kind of in. 71 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 2: Awe right now. That's cool. What you walked in. This 72 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 2: was the Southeast Region Sears Tower, and it was when 73 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 2: Sears went down, it became empty, and this place was 74 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 2: dilapidated and completely empty and homeless people living in it 75 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 2: only ten years ago. Wow, And this whole area around 76 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 2: it was suffering, and some investors in Memphis came together 77 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 2: refurbished and repurposed this entire building. And Memphis Listening Lab 78 00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: is only one of a thousand tenants in this massive 79 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 2: building that there's a school here, there's a grocery store here, 80 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 2: restaurant businesses, all kinds of things, so kind of a 81 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 2: cool revitalation revitalization project. And one of the places there 82 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 2: is a Smith's Listening Lab. So anyway, welcome to mephis. 83 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 2: I'm glad you can see a little bit of our history. 84 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 2: Thank you very much. Your story is amazing, and it 85 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 2: really starts when you're sixteen. But just quickly, how'd you 86 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 2: grow up? Did you grow up in the Bronx. No. 87 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 1: I grew up in Peak Skill in west Chester County. 88 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: I grew up in an apartment complex known as Crossroads. 89 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: I would describe Peak Skill as a middle class, ethnically 90 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: diverse city with the population of approximately twenty five thousand people. 91 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 2: How far is that you know, geographically, so I can 92 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 2: picture it in the map from like New York Manhattan. 93 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: One hour Peak Skill is one hour north of Manhattan. Okay, 94 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: it's suburbs, suburb correct, got it? 95 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 2: Now, what'd your mom and dad do for a living? 96 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, my mother was a was a typist. My father 97 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: was actually never in my life in any aspect. Before 98 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: I was even born. He wanted out of financial responsibility, 99 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: so he denied that I was his. So I grew 100 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: up really with my mother. My grandmother, serving who lived 101 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: with us, served kind of like the second parent, but 102 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: she was in a way a combination of both dad 103 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: and mom, So she was mom because Mom was the breadwinner. 104 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: So Grandma stayed home took care, but grandma was also 105 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: like the father in the sense that she was the 106 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: disciplinarian who kept me and my brother who's three and 107 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:33,799 Speaker 1: a half years younger than me in line. 108 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 2: Got it. I think many of us have had grandmother's 109 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 2: like that, and in the South in particular, those grandmothers 110 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 2: are not to be trifled with. 111 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: Exactly neither was mine back nor so I can relate. 112 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 2: I got it, And so I guess you went to 113 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 2: public high school and public schools. 114 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: Well, I went to Catholic school from grades two through eight. 115 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: The Peakskill High School, which was public actually literally was 116 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 1: a the street from the apartment complex that I grew 117 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: up in, and hence my deciding to go there rather 118 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: than the My mother wanted me to go to Catholic 119 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: high school, but they had like the high school version 120 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: of an entrance exam, and you know, being smarter than 121 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: my parent not, yeah, I decided to purposely flunk the 122 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: entrance exam so that I could go to the public 123 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: high school. And as a story will unfold, I mean 124 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: that really kind of shape my life and everything that 125 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: happened after that. 126 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 2: Of course, I know, you purposely tank the test because 127 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 2: you wanted to go to public school, not Catholic school. Correct, Yes, 128 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 2: kids will do what kids do, right, that's right. If 129 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 2: your grandmother found that, she'd have probably whooped your. 130 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: Butt, exactly right, exactly right. 131 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 2: Okay, so until you're sixteen, I guess in sixteen, are 132 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 2: you a junior in high school? 133 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: Well I would have been. So, you know, I wanted 134 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: to go to public high school, not just because of 135 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: the geographic locale out but in the apartment complex where 136 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:04,559 Speaker 1: I grew up at, there were a lot of kids 137 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: that lived in the buildings and in the surrounding areas. 138 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: I was kind of like one of the main kids, 139 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: so that whatever I suggested would generally be what I 140 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: would do. For what we're gonna do, well, we're gonna 141 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: play basketball, stickball, Monopoly, Whard's Movie Night, you know whatever, 142 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,679 Speaker 1: half dozen games we made up, and we even played 143 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: tackle football without pads on the on the grass. But 144 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: whatever I would suggest would generally be what we all did. 145 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: But that was my life after school, my life in 146 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: high school. I thought that I was going to be 147 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: mixed in with those kids since they all went to 148 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: public school and not the Catholic grade school. But actually 149 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: they were not. They were kids that were one or 150 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: two years older than me. I had skipped first grade 151 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: and I kind of caught up with me in going 152 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: to high school. So everybody was like older than me, 153 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: so I didn't quite fit in. I was kind of 154 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: like on the fringes of the society, and so that 155 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: my first year as a freshman really was I was 156 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: kind of picked on in school, and so my grades 157 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: suffered a lot, and it came to the point that 158 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: I had to go to summer school to do two 159 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: classes in order to pass. But I knew that if 160 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: I did then I would be in with these sane 161 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: kids again, and so I didn't go to summer school. 162 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: I got left back, so I repeated freshman year. So 163 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,839 Speaker 1: at sixteen years old, I was a sophomore, not the 164 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 1: junior that you correctly point out. Mathematically I should have been. 165 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 2: Okay, So what were you into in high school? You're 166 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 2: a freshman and sophomore year. 167 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I played I played basketball. I liked 168 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: video games. I was kind of an athlete, but not 169 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: in the school, not in organized sports, not with the 170 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: kids there. It was after school. I was into all 171 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: those games that we used, you know. I loved playing kickball, 172 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: for example. I liked playing basketball. I lived in the 173 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: swimming pool. We had a twelve foot pool with a 174 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,439 Speaker 1: diving board in it, you know, so that was available 175 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: on the summer. I would describe myself as pretty athletic, 176 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: pretty energetic. 177 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 3: So after school, So what you're describing as a kid, correct, 178 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 3: Just a kid exactly, from a middle class neighborhood. Yes, 179 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 3: no affluence whatsoever, what none, whatsoever. 180 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 2: But you had food on the table. Correct. You had 181 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 2: a mother and a grandmother that cared for you, loved you, 182 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 2: and disciplined you, and keep just kept straight as they could. Yes, 183 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 2: you weren't in a whole lot of trouble. Absolutely not. 184 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: No. 185 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 2: Did you do any drugs? Never, not a day of 186 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 2: my life, not even now as an adult. Did you 187 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 2: ever get picked up shoplifting? Not even nothing? Nothing. You're 188 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 2: just a blue collar New York kid, yes, exactly, nothing 189 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 2: really remarkable and nothing really You're just a normal folk exactly. Yes, 190 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 2: that's true. And then your life changed, and then my 191 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 2: life changed. So on November fifteenth of nineteen eighty nine, 192 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 2: your classmate Angela Korea, Korea, Korea, was murdered. Yes she was, 193 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,439 Speaker 2: and they found her strangled and raped. I believe, yes 194 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 2: they did. Two days later, on November seventeenth. How did 195 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 2: that affect the school and a community of only twenty 196 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 2: five thousand people. 197 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: It rocked the community because murders were very rare. It 198 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:24,199 Speaker 1: was there were periodic town hall meetings where safety tips 199 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: and progress on investigation were held. Many people, you know, 200 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: there were four sessions of wake. Many people attended three 201 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: or four of them. It impacted everybody so much to 202 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: the point that free mental health counseling was offered to 203 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: everybody in Peakskill who wished to avail themselves of it. 204 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 2: Do you remember her family? I do. I met the 205 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 2: family afterwards. 206 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 1: So I went to wake sessions, I went to the 207 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: funeral the cemetery, and there was an announcement made at 208 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: the at the cemetery grounds at anybody that wished to 209 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: come back to the Korea Home have coffee, there would 210 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: be some cookies and talk to the family was free 211 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: to do so. And so I availed myself of that, 212 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: and so I met the family. But that was that 213 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: was afterwards. They seemed like a really tight, warm, close 214 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: knit family. There was a stepfather in the home, which 215 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: was a new thing. Just the idea of living with 216 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: an adult male and they to me, they it all 217 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: seemed to like work and click, and it was. It 218 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 1: was something foreign to me somewhat because again I didn't 219 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: have a father in the in the household, and it 220 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 1: was sad. It was very sad, Yes, it was. And 221 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: I was a sensitive teenager, and you know, this did 222 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 1: affect me emotionally. This was my first real brush with death, 223 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: and I did have an emotional reaction to that. That's 224 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:52,439 Speaker 1: important in the unfolding of the story because so they 225 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: it was one of the factors that put me on 226 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 1: the police radar. So the police interviewed many students from 227 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: the high school, and some of them told the police 228 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: they might want to talk with me because I didn't 229 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:06,679 Speaker 1: quite fit in. I guess the theory in their head 230 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: was people that are quiet into themselves are more likely 231 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: to commit a heeneous crime. So I was suggested to 232 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: the police to look at for that reason. And secondarily, 233 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 1: the police thought that given my actual relationship with the victim, 234 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: which is to say, really no relationship. 235 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 2: She was in two of my. 236 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 1: Classes, a freshman one as a sophomore, I knew her name, 237 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: she knew mine. The police interpreted my being emotional as 238 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: some sort of outward sign that I was sorry for 239 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: what I had done. So those two factors put me 240 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: on the police radar, and that was buttressed by a 241 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: psychological profile that the Peak Skill Police obtained from the NYPD, 242 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: which purported to have the psychological characteristics of the actual perpetrator. 243 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 1: And I had the misfortune of matching that. What was 244 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 1: that that knew the victim that was in high school 245 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: and that was a loner? Well, congratch, you really narrowed 246 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: that down quite a. 247 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 2: Bit, right, I can't believe I'm laughing. 248 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: No, it's okay. We do dark humor and we laugh 249 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: at stupidity and other stuff. So that's what gots beyond 250 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: the police radar. And so for about six weeks, the 251 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: police play this cat and mouse game with me in 252 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: which half the time they would talk to me like 253 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: I'm a suspect, and when they would push too hard 254 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: and I'd become frightened and I'd want to get away 255 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: from them, they would switch up the conversation and Jeff 256 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: is this junior detective helper theme was developed somehow or another. 257 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: They learned that, prior to being a teenager, the career 258 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: that I dreamed about having was to be a cop, 259 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: so they would say things like, well, the kids won't 260 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: talk freely around us, but they will around you. 261 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 2: Let us know if you hear anything. Stop in. 262 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: From time to time they did the They would ask 263 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: me opinion questions and congratulate me that my opinion was correct. 264 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: They made me feel important. They did the good cop, 265 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: bad cop routine, and that intersected with growing up without 266 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: a father or a stepfather in the household. I began 267 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: to look up to the cop who was pretending to 268 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: be my friend as a father figure. 269 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 2: And Thisslee, you trusted him, and thusly I trusted him. 270 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 2: So how long did this cat and mosk game go on? 271 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 2: Six weeks? So, six weeks after this girl's ripe and murder, 272 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 2: they had solved nothing right. And I gotta believe in 273 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 2: a town of twenty five thousand, with grief counselors and 274 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 2: a very rare murder and everything else, there was an 275 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 2: enormous amount of pressure on the police to figure out 276 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 2: who did this thing correct. 277 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: And I want to add that bed on that general pressure. 278 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: Another element of that was that the Correa family didn't 279 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: think the Peak Skill police knew what they were doing, 280 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: and so they went to the state police and asked 281 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: the state police to take over the investigation. The State 282 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: Police did not, but they let that be known to 283 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: the Peak Skill Police, so that ratcheted up the pressure 284 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: to solve. And I want to add also talking about 285 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: how this impacted the community. Peak Skill, for most intents 286 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: and purposes, shut down. I mean, parents were driving their 287 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: kids to school, picking them up right after school, you know, 288 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: bringing them straight home. There was a general atmosphere of fear, rumor, 289 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: and to some extent, paranoia in Peak Skill. 290 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 2: Were you your mom and your grandmother's carret a little bit? 291 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: Yes, we were. 292 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 2: We were. 293 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: My mother didn't want me to go out for a while, 294 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: and if I was, then eventually when she let up 295 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: a little bit and allowed us to go out, you know, 296 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: I had to go out with my brother or or 297 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: with another one of my friends. She didn't want me 298 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 1: to go outside or go anywhere by myself. 299 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:15,360 Speaker 2: It's a bad time. It was a very bad time. Yeah. 300 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 2: During the six weeks of the cat and mouse, were 301 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 2: you discussing these conversations with your mom and grandmother? I 302 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 2: was not. 303 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: I knew that, so I knew that my mother didn't 304 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: want me to talk and interact with the police, so 305 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 1: I told her about it. She trust them, She did 306 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 1: not know she did not trust them. I told my 307 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: mother about my first encounter with the police, and then 308 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: she made clear to me that she didn't want me 309 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 1: to talk to them because she knew that, yeah, they 310 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: were asking me questions and then they wanted me to 311 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 1: try to help them with the case, but then that 312 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: they also were asking me questions that suggested that I 313 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: was I was a suspect, so she didn't want me 314 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,439 Speaker 1: to be to have anything to do with them. But 315 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 1: I was also sixteen years old, and that's an age 316 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,479 Speaker 1: where many people we start to think that you know, 317 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: we know everything, we know more and our parents are 318 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 1: stupid and to my way of thinking, well, I don't 319 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 1: understand what your concern is. They telling me that they 320 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: want me to help them solve the crime. I didn't 321 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: do anything. What could possibly go wrong with my interacting 322 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,640 Speaker 1: or helping the police, So I hid that from them, 323 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: and the Peaskill police also knew that that my mother 324 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 1: didn't want to have anything me to have anything to 325 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,239 Speaker 1: do with them, but they know facilitated that. 326 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 2: How is that legal for a police department to mess 327 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:36,919 Speaker 2: with a minor without their parent. 328 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: Well, I mean you're at sixteen, you're considered to be 329 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: an adult for purposes of waiving your rights and speaking 330 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: to the to the police without a parental author is sixteen? 331 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, right, Yeah, that's right. I didn't even know that. 332 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 2: So eventually understand they said, you know, why don't you 333 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,959 Speaker 2: take a pie graph test and just go ahead and 334 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 2: rid yourself of any suspicion? 335 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 1: Correct, exactly right. And they also added that once not 336 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 1: only that, but that they had some no information that 337 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 1: come into their file and they wanted to share that 338 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: with me. And that sounds like it was, of course, 339 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: but I didn't realize that. So both of why don't 340 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,680 Speaker 1: you just rid yourself with a suspicion and also let 341 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: us be able to share this extra info with you, 342 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: and that's going to allow you to be more helpful 343 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: to us. 344 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're going to be a better junior cop when 345 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 2: we share this with you. Correct. So you go in 346 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 2: to this polygraph test kind of thinking I'm going to 347 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 2: help out and I'm gonna go ahead and remove myself 348 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 2: from the name, and that way I can really be 349 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 2: good junior cop. Exactly. Yes, all fed to you by 350 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 2: this father figure cop that you're beginning to trust, yes, 351 00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 2: having not had a father in your home as a child, 352 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 2: exactly right, all behind your mother and grandmother's back because 353 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 2: they didn't trust them and you didn't want to let 354 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 2: your mom know what you're doing. 355 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:08,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, you've got it all right? 356 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 2: What could go wrong? Right? And now a few messages 357 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 2: from our general sponsors. But first, I hope you'll follow 358 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 2: us on all your favorite social media channels where we 359 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 2: share more powerful content from the Army search for at 360 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 2: Army of normal folks on every channel. We'll be right back. 361 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 2: Tell me about the day you took the polygraph. 362 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: So it was a school day and rather than go 363 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 1: to the high school, I went to the police station 364 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 1: for the test. I expected a test to be at 365 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: the police station because number one, they kind of implied that, 366 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: and number two, the rumor mill in Peace Gill was 367 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,160 Speaker 1: that a few other people had been polygraphed at the 368 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 1: police station. So I'm expecting it to be at the 369 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: police station. I go there with one of my one 370 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 1: of my best friends. Because it's a school day. My 371 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: mother and grandmother think I'm in school. They don't have 372 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 1: a clue that anything's wrong. Therefore, there is no phone 373 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: call or coming to my rescue or intervention. That's off 374 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 1: the table because they don't know. I got to the 375 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: police station. The police lieutenant had told my friend just 376 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: to go home, get out of there. 377 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 2: And what was your friend going to do with you? 378 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: No, he was. I wanted him to go with me 379 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: while I had this idea that he could sit next 380 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 1: to me while I was being tested. 381 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 2: That was more sixteen year old thinking. But I get it. 382 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, right, So when they sent him off, But. 383 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:58,120 Speaker 2: Do you think just hearing that, do you think somewhere 384 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 2: in the deepest recesses of your mind and you were 385 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 2: worried about getting set up, which is why you had 386 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 2: your friend go with you. Yeah, I was that was 387 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 2: true without being maybe consciously cognizant of it. Yes, why 388 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 2: else would you have a friend go with you except 389 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 2: that you had this tinge of fear? 390 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: Correct? Yeah, you're right. No one's ever brought that out before. 391 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: But yes, you're right. 392 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 2: Well, just listening to you that kind of. 393 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true. And so therefore, when the lieutenant told him, 394 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 1: you know, go ahead and get it, get out of here, 395 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 1: I briefly entertained the thought of not going ahead with 396 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: things at all, But then I thought, well, the idea 397 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 1: of being an even better junior detective cop. 398 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 2: Oh, thus, if you say no, you probably think, well, 399 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 2: that makes them suspicious of me. 400 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: Yes, that's true too. 401 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 2: Yes, so you go with this friend and the cops 402 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 2: tell your friend to beat it? Yeap, what's he going 403 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 2: to say? They're the cops exactly, And now you're there, 404 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 2: you can't exactly beat it. I can. I can already 405 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 2: feel the grip of this happening. I'm putting myself in 406 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 2: a sixteen Well you know, I'm fifty five years old, 407 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 2: but I've got about the mentality of the sixteen year old. 408 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 2: So I'm relating real well to all of this right now. 409 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 2: But I mean, I can almost I feel that. 410 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: So I learned quickly, well, in fact, the test is 411 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: not going to be at the Peakskill police station. Why, well, 412 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: they're bringing me to the Well I know the answer now, 413 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: but I didn't at the time. But they so they 414 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 1: told me, look, We're going to stop at a diner 415 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:32,199 Speaker 1: and eat something, and then I was going to be 416 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: brought to the location for the polygraph. I realized now 417 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: the reason for that is so the polygraphist was a 418 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: Putnam County sheriff's investigator named Daniel Stevens. 419 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 2: But I didn't know he. 420 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: Was a cop. He was dressed like a civilian. He 421 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: never identified himself as law enforcement. He never read been 422 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 1: right rights in terms of the transportation. The psychological intrigue continued. 423 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 1: So they put me in the car by myself with 424 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 1: the good cop the bad cop, but the lieutenant were 425 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: in a different vehicle, so there can He reads me 426 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: my rights again, but I don't understand them because I'm sixteen, 427 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: and plus you're telling me that I'm here to help you, 428 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: so that to the extent I could grasp anything at all, 429 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: that was all completely out the window. So we get there. 430 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: I just described the polygraphists. There's no I'm not giving 431 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: anything to eat. The entire time i'm there, there's no 432 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: lawyer present. He gives me a four page brochure which 433 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: explains how the polygraph works. But it has a lot 434 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,959 Speaker 1: of words in it that I don't understand. But I figure, well, 435 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: I'm here to help the police, so what does it matter. 436 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: Let's just get on with it. 437 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 2: Why did they drive you somewhere else. 438 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 1: To bring me into his hands? He carried out this 439 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: procedure which he testified to was called GtC. Get the confession, 440 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 1: and you know, he had a knack for getting confessions 441 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: all over the place, and that was why they brought 442 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 1: me to him. 443 00:24:58,480 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 2: So what was the polygraph like? 444 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 1: They put me in a small room and he give 445 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: first a polygraphist gives me countless cups of coffee. 446 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 2: I was right, get jamped up? 447 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,919 Speaker 1: Correct, And then he wired me up. 448 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 2: Are you serious, sixteen year old? A bunch of coffee? Yes? 449 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 1: No, so on of when I finished one cup that 450 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 1: he was up here pouring away you want another one? 451 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,959 Speaker 1: And he'd you know, I think he gave me between 452 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 1: sixty eight cups. It was a lot. Then he wires 453 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: me to the machine and then he launches into his well. 454 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 1: First he pretends as he's turning the dials, oh, I'm 455 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna fine tune the machine into your body's 456 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: bio feedback. 457 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 2: Right. 458 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: He does that routine for about five minutes, and then 459 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: the nature of the beast comes out and he launches 460 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: his third degree tactics. So he invades my personal space. 461 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: He raises his voice at me. He's asking me the 462 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 1: same questions over and over again, you know, and it's 463 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: really frightening. I mean, I'm not He's a mountain of 464 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: a man. I'm sixty sixteen, I'm one hundred and fifty pounds. 465 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: I'm not used to talking, much less interacting with an 466 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 1: adult male, much less one who's carrying on in a 467 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: ferocious manner like he is. And each hour that passes 468 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: by with him. 469 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 2: Doing this, each hour, how long were you there? 470 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: Six and a half to seven hours? Towards the end, 471 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: I guess he had had enough of my denials and 472 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: he said, you know, he said, what do you mean 473 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 1: you didn't do it? You just told me through the 474 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: polygraph test result that you did. We just want you 475 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: to verbally confirm it. And when he said that to me, 476 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 1: that ratcheted my fear up. And that's when he left 477 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 1: the room, and the cop pretending to be my friend 478 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: came in the room and said, look, they're going to 479 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: harm you. I've been holding them off. I can't do. 480 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 2: That any longer. They're going to harm you. Yes, I 481 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 2: in other words, they're going to beat you. 482 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 1: Well, I mean yeah, I mean, I mean your harm 483 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 1: is what it is. I mean, yeah, they're going to 484 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: beat me. I don't know that it would be limited 485 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 1: to that I don't know how far they're going to go. 486 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: I have no idea of where I'm at. No one 487 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: else knows where I was at. I felt in fear 488 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 1: of my life, and I felt intimidated. So I felt 489 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 1: like everything was on the table in terms of that, 490 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: you know so, and then he says, just tell them 491 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 1: what they want to hear. You can go home afterwards. 492 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 1: You're not going to be arrested. So, being young, naive, 493 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: frightened sixteen, I wasn't thinking the long term. I was 494 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,439 Speaker 1: just concerned with the safety in the moment. I was 495 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 1: overwhelmed emotionally and psychologically, and so I made up And 496 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: then on one hand this possibility of harm and on 497 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: the other this false life preserver that he threw me. 498 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 1: And so I took the out which he offered, and 499 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: I made up a story based on the information he 500 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: gave me that day and that I received in the 501 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: six weeks run up to everything. By the time it 502 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: was all said and done, I had collapsed on the 503 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: floor into a fetal position, crying uncle rollably. Obviously I 504 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 1: was arrested. You know, I was charged with the murder 505 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 1: and rape. This whole thing was not audio taped. It's 506 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: not videotaped, there's no signed confession. It's all just the 507 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 1: cops work. And that would be a crucial factor later 508 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: on because when a case went to trial, they left 509 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: the threat and false promise out of their testimony, and it's. 510 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 2: Your word against theirs, right, And who's going to believe 511 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 2: a raping, murdering sixteen year old over a good. 512 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,919 Speaker 1: Old cop, right, So that's the arrest. 513 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 2: I've been in business since two thousand and one, so 514 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 2: twenty three years. When I first started in business, I 515 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 2: didn't have any money. I didn't come from anything, and 516 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 2: so I started my business literally riding up with every 517 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 2: little money I could and bind used equipment. Literally the 518 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 2: first line, the first line of chain lumber comes down 519 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 2: what's called a pool chain, and it's just a big 520 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 2: heavy chain that lumber comes down that you pull boards 521 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 2: off of. I literally drug out from behind out of 522 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 2: some weeds behind an old furniture plant, North Carolina, and 523 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 2: paid like five hundred dollars cash for it and brought 524 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 2: it back to Memphis to put it together. I put 525 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 2: my plant together those first five six years with used 526 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 2: equipment whatever I could buy. And I needed a front 527 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 2: end loader, and they're expensive I mean, a new one 528 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,479 Speaker 2: today is one hundred and thirty grand. Back then a 529 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,479 Speaker 2: really good, you know, two or three year old when 530 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 2: was seventy five thousand dollars. I can afford that. And 531 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 2: this guy who was a truck driver said he had 532 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 2: some used equipment that he was getting rid of, and 533 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 2: he said he'd bring him down for me to look at. 534 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 2: On his flatbed. It was this old baco. It was 535 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 2: a Ford Baco that didn't look like much. And he 536 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 2: sold it to him for like six thousand dollars and 537 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 2: that was a good deal and I needed it, so 538 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 2: I bought it. Six months later, members of an FBI 539 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 2: task for showed up at my office unannounced with guns 540 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 2: on their hip and badges and said, we need to 541 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 2: speak to you in private. And we went in and 542 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 2: said how long have you been trafficking stolen equipment? And 543 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 2: I said how long I've been doing what? This truck 544 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 2: driver apparently had been stealing equipment from used rental equipment 545 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 2: places all over the United States. He would take loads 546 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 2: to their destination, and then on the way back home 547 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 2: to Tennessee during the night, he would pull over rental 548 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 2: companies and steal stuff and put on his truck, and 549 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 2: he had a ton of stolen stuff out on some 550 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 2: land somewhere, and then he would just sell it as 551 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 2: used equipment to guys like me. And I was like, 552 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 2: what are you talking about? Travel? I don't even know 553 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 2: what you're talking about. And I didn't know that this guy, 554 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 2: I didn't know. And they showed the vend number, and 555 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 2: sure enough, it was stolen from somebody in Alabama. And 556 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 2: this guy had been selling used equipment all over the place, 557 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 2: and everybody that'd been buying it me, you know, by 558 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 2: the letter of lall broke the law because we were 559 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 2: buying stolen equipment, but I wasn't trafficking in it. And 560 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 2: once I finally convinced them showed them the paperwork. I 561 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 2: had a bill of sale and everything else, they switched 562 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 2: gears immediately. It's like, look, man, we see now that 563 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 2: you're not trafficking in this stuff and you're not part 564 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 2: of this ring. But you're out sixty five hundred bucks 565 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 2: because that's not yours, and we've got to take it 566 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 2: right now. And I said, better yet, I'll return it 567 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 2: to the owner. I mean, I'll pay to have it 568 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 2: freight it down, which is exactly what I did. The 569 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 2: whole reason I'm telling this story is the hour that 570 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 2: those men were in my office. Now, I'm a grown 571 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 2: up man at thirty eight years old, homeo own business, 572 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 2: and you know, I've been through a lot in my life. 573 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 2: I remember trembling talking to those guys, because it never 574 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 2: really dawns on you until you're in the position you're 575 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 2: staring at a person that could take away your liberty. 576 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 2: You're staring at a person that has all the power 577 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 2: in the world to slap handcuffs on you, take your 578 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 2: out of your home or your business, put you in 579 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 2: a car, and throw you in jail, whether they prove 580 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 2: you've done anything or not. They have that ability because 581 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 2: if they have suspicion, they can do it, and it 582 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 2: can up end your life. And I remember, just in 583 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:40,719 Speaker 2: that situation how scared I was. I was frightened. I 584 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 2: didn't know whether to call a lawyer. I didn't know 585 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 2: who to talk to. I didn't I searched every word 586 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 2: very carefully because I didn't want to misspeak. I didn't 587 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 2: want to give these men any reason to doubt me. 588 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 2: I knew I'd done nothing wrong. I didn't intend to 589 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,719 Speaker 2: buy somebody's stolen equipment I trusted the guy I sold it, 590 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:05,719 Speaker 2: that's told it to me, and it was terrifying. I 591 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 2: cannot imagine what it must be like for a sixteen 592 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 2: year old kid with no parent, no lawyer, no friends, 593 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 2: for six and a half hours, being drilled by grown 594 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 2: adults who you think are there to protect and serve 595 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 2: you and trust. I'd imagine you did on anything to 596 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 2: get out of that room. Yeah, I would have, and 597 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 2: you did, and I did. We'll be right back. 598 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: I didn't ever even actually realize I was under arrest 599 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: and back to the police station. So when we once 600 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: they obtained this confession, I was crying uncontrollably. They finally 601 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: calmed me down, and at that point they gave me 602 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,359 Speaker 1: something to eat and it was time to go back, 603 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: and you know, in the in the car, and you know, 604 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: they put handcuffed they had rearcuffed me, you know, and 605 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: I asked, well, why why are you putting me on handcuffs. 606 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,800 Speaker 1: I was told that I wasn't going to be arrested, 607 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: and Lieutenant just said safety and they put me in 608 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,280 Speaker 1: the car and they drove me back to the police station. 609 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: The good cop disappeared, Lieutenant disappeared. They said they were 610 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: going to call ahead and get order pizza at the 611 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 1: at the police department. And so I'm eating pizza at 612 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: the police department and periodically I'm interrupted by a uniformed 613 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 1: police officer that's carrying out different facets of the processing. 614 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 1: And you know, eventually he you know, did the fingerprints 615 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 1: and put the ink on the fingers, my fingers, and 616 00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 1: I remember being pretty angry at that point, and I 617 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: just I saw the cop that his role had been 618 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 1: like the bad cop, and I just said, you know what, 619 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 1: what is you know, what is he doing? I've got 620 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: ink on my fingers. I'm over here trying to eat pizza. 621 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 1: And he said, well, oh, he has the right to 622 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: do that. I said, well, what do you mean he 623 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 1: has the right to do that. I was told I 624 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: wasn't going to be arrested, and he said, oh, you 625 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 1: are being charged with the crime. And that was how 626 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: I realized I was under arrest. So the police called 627 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: my mother from there, and she came down to the 628 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: police station. 629 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 2: This how was this girl that was fifteen? And she 630 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 2: was right, and she was raped and murdered. Okay, ned 631 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 2: in the first reader. Didn't they have DNA? They did? 632 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,400 Speaker 1: They did, And so before I went to trial, the 633 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,280 Speaker 1: results of the DNA came in from the FBI lab, 634 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 1: which showed that seminal fluid found in and around the victim. 635 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 2: Didn't match me. It did not match. 636 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 1: It did not match me. No, So to a explain 637 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 1: away the DNA, the prosecutor got this medical examiner to 638 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: commit fraud. They commit perjury. So when as an autopsy's done, 639 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,319 Speaker 1: there they take the written and audio notes as they're 640 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,760 Speaker 1: making their findings. So it was only six months after 641 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: doing the autopsy, hundreds of autopsies, leader only after the 642 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: DNA doesn't match me, there's this medical examiner suddenly says, 643 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: try to follow this. Now he remembers that he forgot. 644 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 2: He remembers that he forever the topic. I feel like 645 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 2: an app for laughing. It's okay, No, it's not okay. 646 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,240 Speaker 2: But he remembered that he forgot. 647 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,440 Speaker 1: To document medical evidence, which it is almost I think. 648 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 2: It depends on what the definition of is is the 649 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:49,879 Speaker 2: most ridiculous thing. 650 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: And he claimed that that, yeah, he forgot to document that. 651 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,759 Speaker 1: And he and you know, so he's saying he found 652 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,240 Speaker 1: medical evidence to show the victim had been promiscuous, which 653 00:36:59,280 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: was a lie. 654 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:01,920 Speaker 2: They made paid that up. How can you find medical 655 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 2: evidence that the victim had been promiscuous before she died 656 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 2: when she was raped? He that it is stupid. 657 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 1: He claims that on her He claimed that on a 658 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:16,399 Speaker 1: slide he saw a perforated hymen. So she was raped, right, 659 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 1: And that's what opened the door for the prosecutor to argue, Aha, 660 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 1: that's how the DNA doesn't match Deskovic, and yet he's guilty. 661 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 2: Oh, sheuating that she had consensual sex before she was raped. Correct, 662 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,760 Speaker 2: this fifteen year old? Correct, So he's stolen the victim 663 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:36,839 Speaker 2: under the bus. 664 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,359 Speaker 1: Too, Yes, he is, and then he takes it. Then 665 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: he is. And then he took it a step further 666 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,719 Speaker 1: and mentioned another youth by name, But he claimed had 667 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 1: slept with the victim, but he never had a DNA 668 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 1: test performed to prove that. He didn't even call him 669 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: as a witness to give verbal testimony. 670 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 2: He just made let's say, if that's who had sex, 671 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 2: we're calling that what and we're going to get a 672 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 2: DNA test from them to disprove. 673 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 1: That because of a conflict of interest. The conflict of 674 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 1: interest the other youth that the prosecutor was falsely saying 675 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: had slept with the victim was represented by another member 676 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 1: of that public defender office, and specifically by a lawyer 677 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 1: that was supposed to be supervising him on my case, 678 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,399 Speaker 1: and so that conflict prevented the defense from asking him 679 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:26,839 Speaker 1: for a sample, of preventing the defense from calling him 680 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 1: as a witness. 681 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 2: I got to say this to you, so far, hearing 682 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 2: this story sounds like a non affluent kid living an 683 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 2: apartment without a father or without the means to defend himself, 684 00:38:52,160 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 2: simply checking a box as someone to prosecute for this 685 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 2: crime to get everybody offer, So we settled it. I 686 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 2: agree with that his. I mean socioeconomics has something to 687 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 2: do with this too. 688 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 1: Because the lawyers that we spoke to wanted fifty thousand 689 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,880 Speaker 1: dollars as a retainer just to get started. 690 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 2: And that was no way. 691 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 1: There is no way. There was no way. 692 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,799 Speaker 2: Your grandmother and mother had to have been well. First 693 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,879 Speaker 2: of all. Wow, I'm going ninety different ways right now. 694 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 2: But was a medical examiner proficient enough to establish atom 695 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,799 Speaker 2: of death? Yeah? Where were you during the time of death? 696 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:42,280 Speaker 2: You had to have it? Just an alibi? 697 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,880 Speaker 1: I did. I had one. I told, I told my 698 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 1: public defender I was playing with football with one of 699 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 1: my friends at the time of the crime. Okay, and 700 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 1: he never he never interviewed or called called the person 701 00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:02,279 Speaker 1: as my alibi. He never introduced the evidence why. I 702 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,840 Speaker 1: asked him that after I don't get too far ahead. 703 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 1: But I asked him that after I lost the trial, 704 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 1: and he said, oh, well, I don't prosecute. I don't 705 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: do cases like with a shotgun approach. 706 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 2: You know. 707 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 1: That was his answer, which didn't really make any sense. 708 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 1: This lawyer essentially didn't defend me so quickly. He rarely 709 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 1: met with me. When he did meet with me, and 710 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 1: I tried to explain to him that I was innocent 711 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 1: in what happened in interrogation room, he was always shutting 712 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 1: me up. One time he told me he didn't care 713 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 1: if I was guilty or innocent. He never explained to 714 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: the jury the significance of the DNA not matching me. 715 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 1: He never used that to argue that that proved that 716 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: this confession was coerced than false. When it came time 717 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,360 Speaker 1: to cross the gamin of the medical examiner, my lawyer 718 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 1: stood up in open court and with a big smile 719 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 1: on his face, like they were friends from back in 720 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 1: the day, said to him, You're going to be pleased 721 00:40:54,719 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: to know that I don't have a single question for you. 722 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:04,279 Speaker 1: He wouldn't allow me to testify either. He said that 723 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 1: his personal one loss record was significantly better when his 724 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 1: clients didn't testify compared to when they did. That's probably true, 725 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,880 Speaker 1: but most of his clients probably have a record, and 726 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 1: if they took the stand, they could be asked questions 727 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,439 Speaker 1: about that. But I had never been arrested for even 728 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 1: a violation. And the other quick thing that he said 729 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 1: to me was, and this is a very naive way 730 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:32,920 Speaker 1: to practice law. It's not up to me to prove 731 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:37,480 Speaker 1: that you're innocent. It's up to the prosecution to prove 732 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,239 Speaker 1: that you're guilty. And I don't think they did that. 733 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 2: Did the judge not see the lack of defense and 734 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:54,359 Speaker 2: inequity that was happening here? 735 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,399 Speaker 1: I think that he did, because when I was found 736 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,200 Speaker 1: guilty and I was at the sentencing hearing, I begged 737 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,600 Speaker 1: him to overturn the verdict because I was innocent, and 738 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:08,280 Speaker 1: I referenced the DNA and he said to me, maybe 739 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,920 Speaker 1: you are innocent. But instead of him overturning the conviction, 740 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,839 Speaker 1: he took the easy way out, which was to give 741 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: me a fifteen to life sentence. I have been charged 742 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,440 Speaker 1: as an adult and sentence as an adult and sent 743 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:24,360 Speaker 1: to an adult prison. So, first of all, polygraph test 744 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 1: results are not admissible because it's not scientific, and you 745 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,359 Speaker 1: know it would be prejudicial for a jurity here. 746 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,880 Speaker 2: I'm a psychology major, and I will tell you that 747 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:41,279 Speaker 2: polygraphs are around seventy eight percent accurate. You can't take 748 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,279 Speaker 2: somebody's life away from them. On seventy eight percent, they 749 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,560 Speaker 2: should be inadmissible. And if you happen to sweat a lot, 750 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:51,799 Speaker 2: they'll give false readings, and if you're nervous, they'll give 751 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:58,240 Speaker 2: false readings. And if you're cold hearted and don't get nervous, 752 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 2: you can also beat them on the Otherwise, you can 753 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,399 Speaker 2: be trained to be polygraph test. There's a reason they're inadmissible, 754 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,960 Speaker 2: and one of them should be. A scared less sixteen 755 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 2: year old card up in a fetal position has no 756 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,359 Speaker 2: business plugged up to a machine that's going to say 757 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:15,800 Speaker 2: whether or not he's lying, because it's going to register 758 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:17,239 Speaker 2: everything you're saying is lying. 759 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:23,640 Speaker 1: So have you having said that? The judge let the 760 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:28,560 Speaker 1: polygraphists repeatedly tell the jury that I failed the polygraph 761 00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,400 Speaker 1: and that I lied when I denied committing the crime, 762 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,920 Speaker 1: while at the same time he prohibited my lawyer from 763 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,080 Speaker 1: asking him questions about the methods he used to arrive 764 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:43,120 Speaker 1: at his opinion. So you're right, the polygraphs inadmissible unless 765 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,920 Speaker 1: both sides agree. We didn't agree, but the judge created 766 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: this backdoor role. He said, well, this alleged confession took 767 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:54,080 Speaker 1: place while you are being polygraphed, so it's coming in 768 00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:57,600 Speaker 1: that way. So that was an irregularity, and I got 769 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:02,720 Speaker 1: one that's arguably better than that. So the victim's clothes, 770 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,879 Speaker 1: including her bra, had been entered into evidence by the prosecutor. 771 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,239 Speaker 1: The jury asked to see the bra, and that was 772 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,520 Speaker 1: important because that was one of the statements that the 773 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:15,759 Speaker 1: cops coerced out of me was I said that I 774 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:19,040 Speaker 1: ripped her bra off. So when the jury asked to 775 00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:20,880 Speaker 1: see that, I mean, we thought they were thinking, like 776 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:22,799 Speaker 1: we wanted them to think, there's some bras that you 777 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,360 Speaker 1: can't rip the way that they're made. And it was 778 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:29,560 Speaker 1: at that moment that the judge announced, he said, well, 779 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,879 Speaker 1: the bra and the rest of the victim's clothes had 780 00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:35,759 Speaker 1: been left in the courtroom over the weekend, and apparently 781 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:40,040 Speaker 1: the janitors thought it was garbage, so it's been thrown out. 782 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:41,800 Speaker 2: It's not available anymore. 783 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:47,800 Speaker 1: And he substituted the bra with a photo in which 784 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,920 Speaker 1: he said, you can almost see the bra in the photo. 785 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,759 Speaker 2: Unbelievable. This is a kangaroo cord. 786 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:00,840 Speaker 1: The last thing is on the third day of the 787 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:05,600 Speaker 1: jury deliberation, they sent out a note asking if we 788 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 1: can't come up with a verdica, we're going to be 789 00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:12,160 Speaker 1: kept sequestered over the Christmas holiday, and the judge said yes, 790 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,920 Speaker 1: and I learned many years later at that point it 791 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,480 Speaker 1: was eleven to one for a conviction in the jury. 792 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,440 Speaker 1: In the jury room, but there was a holdout Duror 793 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:23,080 Speaker 1: that thought I was in a sympath They were all 794 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,520 Speaker 1: pressing him, and when they found out that they would 795 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,879 Speaker 1: be sequestered, nobody wanted to be sequestered, and he didn't either, 796 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:32,480 Speaker 1: so that ratcheted the pressure up, and then he switched 797 00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,600 Speaker 1: his vote based on that, and I was found guilty 798 00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:37,200 Speaker 1: of a murder and rape, which I didn't commit. 799 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,560 Speaker 2: Have you spoken that, juror, I haven't, but. 800 00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,040 Speaker 1: He spoke to my civil rights lawyers. He had saw 801 00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,400 Speaker 1: on the news that I had been exonerated and released, 802 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,560 Speaker 1: and he said, well, I'm glad because I never thought 803 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,600 Speaker 1: he was guilty. And so my lawyer asked him the 804 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,520 Speaker 1: obvious question, which well, why did you vote that way? 805 00:45:55,680 --> 00:46:00,480 Speaker 2: And then they told you that story correct. And that 806 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:04,799 Speaker 2: concludes part one of my conversation with Jeff Dskovic, and 807 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,319 Speaker 2: you do not want to miss part two that's now 808 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:11,440 Speaker 2: available to listen to the Redemption part. It's coming soon 809 00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,960 Speaker 2: and it will floor you together. Guys, we can change 810 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,400 Speaker 2: this country, but it starts with you. I'll see in 811 00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:21,040 Speaker 2: part two