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Speaker 1: Well as many of my listeners. Note, if I were

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Speaker 1: running a newsroom, a national newsroom, and said I needed

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Speaker 1: to open a bureau on the midterms and have a

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Speaker 1: bureau that was just focused on how the midterms were

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Speaker 1: going to go, what were the most important races, I

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Speaker 1: would be in one state and one state only, and

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Speaker 1: it is the state of Michigan. Whether it's the governor's race,

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Speaker 1: the senate race. I think a lot of our political confrontations,

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Speaker 1: whether it's left and right, progressive, centrist, a fight on

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Speaker 1: the right between the right, independence, you name it. Michigan's

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Speaker 1: got it all. So you know I'm going to over

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Speaker 1: index on all things Michigan. Joining me today is one

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Speaker 1: of the candidates in the senate race. It is a candidate.

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Speaker 1: Then in my conversation with Ron Fournier, who is a

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Speaker 1: Michigan native, he was screaming from the rooftops, don't overlook

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Speaker 1: this candidate. The candidate's name is Abdul Lsi ed he

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Speaker 1: joins me. Now, Abdul, nice to meet you virtually here

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast, Chuck.

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Speaker 2: It is a privilege, in an honor to be with you.

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Speaker 2: Grateful to you, and also if you had that Bureau

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Speaker 2: in Michigan, you would experience the greatest fall that America

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Speaker 2: has to offer, not just because you get to watch

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Speaker 2: my Wolverines, yeah play in the Big House from time

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Speaker 2: to time. But you know, y'all in Miami don't have

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Speaker 2: a bad team either.

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Speaker 1: No, it's the it's the you know, it's U M

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Speaker 1: versus you of M. As as I've learned over the years,

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Speaker 1: you've run for office before. But and look, your people

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Speaker 1: may not know your background a physician, You're an epidemiologist,

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Speaker 1: You've worked in public health, you've worked in academia. And

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Speaker 1: I guess I'm going to say this. Look, you're you know,

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Speaker 1: you're you're in your early forties. Why a career in

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Speaker 1: politics now?

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Speaker 3: Now?

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Speaker 1: And I say career? You know, let's let you've run twice,

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Speaker 1: so the career is? Why politics? Now? Why give me

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Speaker 1: your your origin story as to what got you in

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Speaker 1: to this side of the arena.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I don't think of it as a

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Speaker 3: career per se.

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Speaker 2: I grew up wanting to be a doctor, and that's

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Speaker 2: in large part because of my own experiences growing up.

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Speaker 2: My folks immigrated to this country from Egypt, and I

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Speaker 2: was raised by my father who's an Egyptian immigrant, and

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Speaker 2: my stepmom, Jackie, who's a daughter of the American Revolution

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Speaker 2: from the middle of the state of Michigan. And I

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Speaker 2: would get, you know, sent off to Egypt often in

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Speaker 2: the summers, where I'd hang out with my grandmother.

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Speaker 3: Why is this most intelligent person I ever met, who

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Speaker 3: never got to go to school.

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Speaker 2: She raised six kids of eight to whom she gave

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Speaker 2: birth to, having died before the age of one. I

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Speaker 2: would go fifteen hours and in that time I am

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Speaker 2: the language for it then, but I would travel about

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Speaker 2: ten years difference in life expectancy. I grew up just

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Speaker 2: outside of the city Detroit. I didn't have to go

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Speaker 2: fifteen hours. I could go fifteen minutes into the city

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Speaker 2: and travel the same ten year life expectancy gap. And

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Speaker 2: I wanted to do something about that. Growing up, my

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Speaker 2: all my mentors always told me, someday you're going to

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Speaker 2: run for office. I was like, that's nuts. I don't

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Speaker 2: know if you all have seen my name, Abdulah is

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Speaker 2: just like a truncated version of my whole first name,

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Speaker 2: which has got sounds in it that come out.

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Speaker 3: Of parts of people's throats.

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Speaker 2: They don't know they have so like that's off limits

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Speaker 2: for me, like so much so that when I graduated

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Speaker 2: from Michigan in two thousand and seven, I was the

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Speaker 2: senior speaker alongside President Bill Clinton, and he comes up

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Speaker 2: to me after the speech. He's like, look, you got

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Speaker 2: a gift for communicating. Maybe he'll run for office a

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Speaker 2: limits or president. I don't if you saw my name,

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Speaker 2: but like there are eleven letters in my name, and

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Speaker 2: that's just the first.

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Speaker 1: Have you met Barack Ussain Obama? Yes, A lot of people,

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Speaker 1: including this guy here, who thought, ooh, Hussein, is that

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Speaker 1: going to be an electable I was wondering if he

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Speaker 1: could get elected to the Senate. So I think he

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Speaker 1: disproved this. No, So that's exactly it. This was seven

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Speaker 1: in o way.

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Speaker 2: I got to watch him run for and win the presidency,

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Speaker 2: and so you know, I went on had my career

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Speaker 2: in medicine, only to realize that the things that were

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Speaker 2: making people sick had a lot to do with access

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Speaker 2: to some very basic things. Do you get to drink

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Speaker 2: clean water, breathe clean air, A forge your groceries, which

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Speaker 2: led me to career in public health. I got to

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Speaker 2: rebuild Detroit's health department, got to lead Wayne County's Department

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Speaker 2: of Health Human Veterans Services. Across my work, we did

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Speaker 2: everything from put glasses on tens of thousands of kids' faces,

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Speaker 2: take on some of the biggest corporate ruters in our state,

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Speaker 2: erase upwards of seven hundred million dollars in medical debt

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Speaker 2: for three hundred thousand people, and over and over again,

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Speaker 2: you start to come up against the hard issues of politics,

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Speaker 2: the decisions that policymakers make that too often put the

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Speaker 2: kinds of kids that I was trying to serve behind.

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Speaker 2: And so for me, a lot of this work is

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Speaker 2: about trying to lead in politics that centers the people

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Speaker 2: that we say we care the most about, which is

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Speaker 2: our children. It doesn't matter who their parents are, what

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Speaker 2: they do for work, what side of the tracks they

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Speaker 2: grew up on. I think we want in America where

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Speaker 2: every single kid has the best shot at a dignified life,

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Speaker 2: And for me, that's personal right. I got to have

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Speaker 2: these amazing opportunities that kids growing up just fifteen minutes

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Speaker 2: away from me did not get to have, and I

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Speaker 2: think America would be a better place if every kid

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Speaker 2: got those same opportunities, and that we build our government

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Speaker 2: around them, And so for me, this run for office

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Speaker 2: is about trying to have the conversation that I think

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Speaker 2: sits at the core of politics, who are we and

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Speaker 2: who do we want to be around centering those folks

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Speaker 2: in the kind of public policy that would dignify them.

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Speaker 1: Look, I mean, I think it's pretty clear healthcare depends

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Speaker 1: on your status, right how good your healthcare is, if

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Speaker 1: you've got the ability to find specialists, if you've got

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Speaker 1: the and sometimes that's sometimes it's financial, sometimes it's time,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's location, it's geography, it's all of these things.

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Speaker 1: So obviously to me, I now understand why you're a

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Speaker 1: Medicare for All persons, right, which is that this is

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Speaker 1: about You've got to rip off the class issue when

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Speaker 1: it comes to healthcare, because right now, your health outcome

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Speaker 1: depends on your status on the economic ladder almost more

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Speaker 1: so than it does race or gender. Is that is

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Speaker 1: that fair? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: And Chuck, I'll just you know, take it a step further.

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Speaker 2: You and I might have the same insurance and I

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Speaker 2: just know enough people that I could get access to different.

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Speaker 1: Right, you make the right phone call, who know the

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Speaker 1: right person? Look, I experienced this firsthand. My dad was

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Speaker 1: on the liver transparent list and couldn't get on the list.

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Speaker 1: And it turns out and I remember that same year

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Speaker 1: when he was on it, and this is way back

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Speaker 1: in the late eighties early nineties, like Mickey Mannel got

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Speaker 1: three livers or two livers, if I'm not mistaken, and

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Speaker 1: it was like, well, you know his doctor, and then

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Speaker 1: you learn it's everybody's on the same list. But does

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Speaker 1: your doctor know how to word it correctly? Sometimes it's

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Speaker 1: not even the right call, it's do you know how

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Speaker 1: to word it in such a way that it gets

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Speaker 1: you higher on the list, right?

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Speaker 2: And that issue, Chuck, is exactly it, right, Like we're

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Speaker 2: talking about differences at the elite opportunities of having health

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Speaker 2: insurance in the first place, but the reality of it

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Speaker 2: is that there are a lot of people who don't

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Speaker 2: have health insurance at all, a lot of folks who

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Speaker 2: have second class or third class healthcare citizenship through something

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Speaker 2: like Medicaid kind.

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Speaker 1: Of stuff basically, And that's it, you know, right, Yeah, And.

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Speaker 2: Then even if you have private insurance, experience of that

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Speaker 2: is getting worse and worse. I mean the deductible, the

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Speaker 2: median and deductible, right, which is the money you pay

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Speaker 2: to get access to the healthcare you already thought you

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Speaker 2: paid for in the quote unquote premium every two weeks

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Speaker 2: or four weeks. That median deductible for a family of

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Speaker 2: four is about four thousand dollars. So you're doing the

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Speaker 2: math right. That average family of four makes about eighty

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Speaker 2: thousand dollars. That means they are forgoing a paycheck to

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Speaker 2: get access to the health insurance that every paycheck has

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Speaker 2: been garnished to pay for in the first place. That's

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Speaker 2: if you have private health insurance. I mean, the system

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Speaker 2: is so broken and you ask yourself why, Well, it's

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Speaker 2: because everyone's got to get paid, right. The health insurance

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Speaker 2: company gets paid, the hospitals get paid, the pharmaceutical or

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Speaker 2: the medical device.

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Speaker 3: Companies get paid.

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Speaker 2: And I just think that in America, we ought to

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Speaker 2: have a system where getting paid isn't the operative goal.

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Speaker 3: It's that you get health care to the patient who

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Speaker 3: needs it.

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Speaker 2: And I trained as a doctor to practice in a

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Speaker 2: system where I could take care of patients, not get

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Speaker 2: huge corporations paid.

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Speaker 3: And we don't have to live this way. But it's

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Speaker 3: getting worse and worse and harder and harder.

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Speaker 1: Deal with this Look, I'm it's a straw man argument.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying I ascribe to this argument. But you've

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Speaker 1: been to medical school. You know the cost of medical school.

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Speaker 1: That there's this belief that because it costs so much

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Speaker 1: money to become a doctor, therefore doctors should expect to

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Speaker 1: make a lot of money.

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Speaker 2: And you know, if it was the doctor's pay that

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Speaker 2: was the issue, we could have that conversation. That's not

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Speaker 2: where the inflation in healthcare is. In fact, if you

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Speaker 2: were to actually adjust a physician's pay for inflation between

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Speaker 2: now in the nineteen nineties, it would be as if

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Speaker 2: physicians took a collective thirty five percent pay cut. So

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Speaker 2: it's not that physicians are getting paid so much. It's

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Speaker 2: that health insurers and hospitals have colluded in a system

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Speaker 2: where they can mutually gatekeep for each other to make

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Speaker 2: sure that they extract more and more from us and

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Speaker 2: more and more of the value in healthcare. So I

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Speaker 2: don't want to Folks leave this conversation thinking, well, healthcare

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Speaker 2: so expensive because those doctors get paid so much.

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Speaker 3: That's just not what's happening.

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Speaker 2: It's that those health insurance CEOs get paid so much.

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Speaker 2: It's that those hospital CEOs get paid so much. It's

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Speaker 2: that you have a system of mergers and acquisitions in

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Speaker 2: healthcare that empower all of them to suppress people's wages.

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Speaker 2: Just this weekend was at a nurse's strike in Flint, right,

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Speaker 2: because they're not able to actually negotiate with their hospital

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Speaker 2: because they're just so few players in town that if

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Speaker 2: you're a nurse, you kind of got to work for

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Speaker 2: one of two different corporations who collude together to suppress wages.

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Speaker 2: It's the way that these really, really big players have

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Speaker 2: come together.

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Speaker 3: And this is the thing, Chuck is.

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Speaker 2: I think people understand that, whether it's healthcare, or the

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Speaker 2: price of keeping the lights on your utilities, or it's

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Speaker 2: the price of a plane ticket, that you've got so

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Speaker 2: few players, huge corporations that have been able to ineffect

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Speaker 2: use their money to corrupt our political system to make

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Speaker 2: sure that they end up getting paid more and you

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Speaker 2: have to pay more for the things you buy from them,

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Speaker 2: and you end up getting paid less for the work that.

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Speaker 3: You have to do for them. That is the essential

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Speaker 3: challenge of our lis.

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Speaker 2: Some healthcare just happens to be the most obvious, most blatant,

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Speaker 2: and frankly most corrupting and soddening version of all of it.

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Speaker 1: Let me throw another strong man argument about the cost

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Speaker 1: of healthcare with from the angle of the pharmaceutical companies

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Speaker 1: that hey, it costs a lot of money to try

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Speaker 1: to bring good prescription drugs to market. Therefore, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of drugs that fail and they've got to eat

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Speaker 1: those costs. So when they have one that succeeds, it's

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Speaker 1: got to pay for all the failures as well. What's reasonable?

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Speaker 1: What should be what should be the expectation on that

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Speaker 1: part of the cost of healthcare, because that's a contributor.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and Chuck, I'd say that's a fair argument.

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Speaker 2: If the marketing budget at almost every fortune five hundred

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Speaker 2: pharmaceutical company wasn't larger than the research and development budget,

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Speaker 2: so you know, you know, fewer glossy adds on TV,

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Speaker 2: more research and development, then maybe I could like squint

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Speaker 2: and see the point. But the hard part is that

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Speaker 2: in this country we pay exorbitantly more for pharmaceuticals than

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Speaker 2: other countries, and the difference is that, frankly, our government

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Speaker 2: is barred in most cases from being able to negotiate

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Speaker 2: those prices downward. And if you look at how much

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Speaker 2: their CEOs make, how much their c suite makes, how

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Speaker 2: much they return in stock buybox. I worry right that

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Speaker 2: too often the ways that these corporations work is about

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Speaker 2: trying to play finance games around having to sell you

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Speaker 2: pharmaceuticals that you don't have a choice about where you

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Speaker 2: get them. And of course, you know, we can nerd

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Speaker 2: out here a little bit, right, but we know that

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Speaker 2: pharmaceuticals are right the classic, as we say, inelastic demand curve.

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Speaker 2: That's a fancy economics way for saying there are things

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Speaker 2: you kind of have to buy when you need them, right.

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Speaker 2: So unfortunately, they've always played this game where they just

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Speaker 2: raise their prices because they can, because you're going to

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Speaker 2: buy those medications anyway, because it's literally life and death captive.

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Speaker 2: And so, you know, it's a challenging situation that we

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Speaker 2: have in this country because the fact that healthcare has

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Speaker 2: become so expensive for so many people has actually undermined

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Speaker 2: trust in medicine and public health or at large. It's

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Speaker 2: the reason that the likes of an RFK junior can

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Speaker 2: go light all of HHS on fire, because folks know

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Speaker 2: that they couldn't get the medications they needed in the

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Speaker 2: context of disease they knew they had, and then all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden, we're inventing new vaccines for a disease

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Speaker 2: that didn't.

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Speaker 3: Exist a year ago, and we're saying, here, take these

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Speaker 3: for free.

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Speaker 2: And they're like, look, I know I need insulin, but

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Speaker 2: nobody's ever come up to me and be like, here,

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Speaker 2: take the insulin for free, right, And so it's kind

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Speaker 2: of weird to me that you all don't give me

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Speaker 2: the drugs for the diseases I know I have, when

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, you're giving me the vaccine for

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Speaker 2: a disease I don't yet have that didn't exist a

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Speaker 2: year ago. And it's the way that we've kept healthcare

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Speaker 2: that people know they need out of their hands because

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Speaker 2: the prices are so expensive. That has really undercut the

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Speaker 2: knees out of the public health arguments that folks like

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Speaker 2: me have been making for a very long time.

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Speaker 3: And it's sad to watch a guy like RFK.

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Speaker 2: Junior, who shouldn't have his hands on, frankly, anything having

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Speaker 2: to do with science and health in this country now

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Speaker 2: come and use that very premise to destroy so much

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Speaker 2: of what's so many many.

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Speaker 3: People have tried to build.

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Speaker 1: Actually broaden that issue out a little bit in this respect,

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Speaker 1: which is you were practicing medicine sort of at the

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Speaker 1: arguably at the beginning stages of when doctor Internet would intervene. Right,

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Speaker 1: your patient would come in and say, hey, I read this, doctor,

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Speaker 1: what can you tell me about this? Right? And now,

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Speaker 1: of course, doctor Internet is a gigantic problem, and it's

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Speaker 1: so much bigger, and it's created this misinformation is sort

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Speaker 1: of now it's becoming public policy and public health. But

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Speaker 1: when did you first start to notice that this was

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Speaker 1: that essentially, and I think you know what I mean

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Speaker 1: when I say doctor Internet, right, where this was really

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Speaker 1: starting to get into the way of healthcare.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I want to be clear, I took my

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Speaker 2: career right as soon as I graduated med school into

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Speaker 2: public health, so I didn't practice day to day. I'll

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Speaker 2: tell you though, that the impact of the Internet, frankly,

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Speaker 2: the impact of algorithmic amplification of of health information, I think,

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Speaker 2: really started to take hold in the early twenty tents.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you had the advent of Facebook.

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Speaker 2: I remember being one of the first ten thousand people

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Speaker 2: on Facebook when it came to my university my freshman year, right.

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Speaker 2: And then that when I graduated college, went mobile on

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Speaker 2: the new invention called the iPhone, and I think at

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Speaker 2: that point the Internet company started to realize that they

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Speaker 2: could sustain your attention on that device by feeding you

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Speaker 2: things they knew would create some sort of emotional response.

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Speaker 2: And health information is one of those things, because of course,

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Speaker 2: you want to keep yourself super healthy, and you know,

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Speaker 2: it's kind of a broken system, and all of the

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Speaker 2: exorbitant ways it's broken can wow and astound, and so

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Speaker 2: this was bound to go viral on the internet when

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Speaker 2: I think about you know, I graduated in med school

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Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen, and I remember having conversations with patients

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Speaker 2: whose care I was involved in as a medical student,

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Speaker 2: and already they'd say, well, I googled my symptoms and

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Speaker 2: here's what I found. But when I talked to my

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Speaker 2: call in practice, they tell me that the real like,

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Speaker 2: the moment that all of this started to really really

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Speaker 2: take off, was in the early twenty twenties during the pandemic, right,

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Speaker 2: And that was a moment where folks were really paying

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Speaker 2: attention to health and healthcare because it was in the news.

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Speaker 2: Folks felt like they had zero control over their circumstances,

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Speaker 2: and that the powers that be didn't give them the

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Speaker 2: kind of confidence that they wanted to be able to

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Speaker 2: have the kind of control that they needed in this

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Speaker 2: really scary moment. And I think it opened Pandora's box

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Speaker 2: in a way where you had a profound platforming of

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Speaker 2: folks like RFK Junior in ways that they hadn't had

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Speaker 2: in the past.

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Speaker 1: So talk to me about some ways to look this

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Speaker 1: is a this is a crisis. I think it's a crisis.

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Speaker 1: I'm shocked that there aren't more people alarmed at what's

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Speaker 1: happening at the CDC. When I say more people inside

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Speaker 1: the Republican Party sort of whatever's left of the non

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Speaker 1: Trump wing of the party, I mean, this is a

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Speaker 1: national security problem. This is a risk to our economy,

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Speaker 1: let alone an actual risks to both young and old.

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Speaker 1: Right that the ones that are most likely to fall

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Speaker 1: victim to a virus or a disease that we had

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Speaker 1: once IRAQ hated are those with weaker immune systems again,

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Speaker 1: children or elderly. And you've been in the space of

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Speaker 1: public health, you saw the distrust grow. Do you have

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Speaker 1: good best practices that you think would help restore trust

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Speaker 1: if you were put in charge of the CDC tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: You know, you would have to work on trying to

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Speaker 1: build trust. What does that look like? What are some

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Speaker 1: good what are some good ideas that you've put into

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Speaker 1: practice that that has helped at least in one on

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Speaker 1: one conversation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll say a couple of things. Number one. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's funny.

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Speaker 2: I have two terminal degrees in health. I graduated in

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Speaker 2: medical school. I did a PhD in public health. And

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Speaker 2: if I walk up to people and say, well, as

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Speaker 2: a double doctorate your doctor, doctor play to you, they

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Speaker 2: consider and call you doctor doctor.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but that's actually not the play.

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Speaker 2: Most often it's like, hey, look, I'm a father of

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Speaker 2: a seven year old and a two year old. I

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Speaker 2: also happen to have a medical degree in a PhD

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Speaker 2: in public health, and I've worked as a health commissioner.

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Speaker 2: But as a father, let me tell you what I

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Speaker 2: was so excited to do when my kids turned one.

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Speaker 3: Who's give them these vaccines? Why?

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Speaker 2: Because I've seen what it looks like when somebody gets measles.

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Speaker 2: I know what it looks like to see a kid

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Speaker 2: struggling to breathe because they got the flu. And I

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Speaker 2: don't hesitate to get my kids vaccinated. Now you do you,

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Speaker 2: But let me just tell you what I did with

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Speaker 2: the things that I know. I think that's Number one.

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Speaker 2: We need to communicate as people before we communicate as experts,

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Speaker 2: because the.

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Speaker 1: Lead with doctor, doctor, They're literally not going to listen

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Speaker 1: to you, Right, that's what you're concerned.

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Speaker 2: Right. If I have to choose between doctor and dad,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to pick dad every single time. Number Two,

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Speaker 2: I think we need to recognize that there is no

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Speaker 2: difference in the minds of most people between health care

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Speaker 2: and public health. And I think people are really frustrated

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Speaker 2: by health care, and that bleeds into whether or not

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Speaker 2: they're willing to to trust public health. And I think

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Speaker 2: we need to be very, very smart in public health

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Speaker 2: about advocating for a health care system that gets people

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Speaker 2: the medications they need when they need them, that does

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Speaker 2: not cost them an arm and a leg. It is

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Speaker 2: a crazy thing that in this country, if you get

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Speaker 2: cancer two thirds of the time, you are going to

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Speaker 2: end up in some sort of bankruptcy. That's a crazy thing.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's a public health issue. And I

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Speaker 2: think when people don't see us talking about the obvious

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Speaker 2: things they have to deal with every single day. They're

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Speaker 2: less likely to listen when we come to them in

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Speaker 2: the moment of crisis and say, hey, we really need

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Speaker 2: you to pay attention to us. They're going to say,

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Speaker 2: where were you when I was struggling for my insulin?

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Speaker 2: Where were you when my mom got sick with cancer

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Speaker 2: and we lost our home over it? And I think

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Speaker 2: we've got to be able to say we were right

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Speaker 2: there and we were working on the problem. I think

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Speaker 2: the third thing, though, is that I think we've got

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Speaker 2: to really really.

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Speaker 3: Get smart about the question of agency.

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Speaker 2: And I think what makes the MAHA thing so exciting

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Speaker 2: to people is the notion or not that you can

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Speaker 2: control your health future.

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Speaker 3: And their whole thing is right.

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Speaker 2: I mean you've seen the videos, right, they don't want

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Speaker 2: you to know, and you're like, why don't they want

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Speaker 2: you to know? But like, also, what don't they want

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Speaker 2: you to know? And you're always like, okay, I they

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Speaker 2: don't want me to know it, like I should probably

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Speaker 2: know this.

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Speaker 3: And so there's this idea.

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Speaker 2: That if you like you know protein max and you

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Speaker 2: you fibermax and you know you take all the right peptides,

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Speaker 2: even though there's no evidence for them, that you can

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Speaker 2: buy yourself out of the uncertainty that comes with.

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Speaker 3: Living in the world with respect to your health.

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Speaker 2: And I think we need to be able to understand

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Speaker 2: that instinct in this moment and recognize that what we're

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Speaker 2: asking is for folks to be able to have agency

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Speaker 2: through the collective effort that we put in to protect

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Speaker 2: each other.

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Speaker 1: Look, this is the challenge, you know, This challenge in

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Speaker 1: health is similar to education.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: People want more personal choice in where they have they

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Speaker 1: how to educate their kids. At the same time, they

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Speaker 1: want to make sure if they choose the public schools

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Speaker 1: that the public schools are amazing. Yet the more money

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Speaker 1: you take out of the public schools to give people

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Speaker 1: choice in their kids education ends up weakening the entire system.

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Speaker 1: I think healthcare is a similar issue. This is one

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Speaker 1: of those in theok this is the larger debate about

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Speaker 1: you know, you know, when do you sort of act

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Speaker 1: as a collective and when do you sort of act

438
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,199
Speaker 1: as an individual? Right? And what what is and if

439
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,080
Speaker 1: you can you can sell a collective if you're saving

440
00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,840
Speaker 1: the individual right. But this is a tricky I mean,

441
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,560
Speaker 1: this gets it to sort of the large divide of

442
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:47,080
Speaker 1: large government small government.

443
00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:47,280
Speaker 3: Right.

444
00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:51,120
Speaker 1: The old debates we used to have pre Trump with Trump, right,

445
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,479
Speaker 1: Trump wants strong, He doesn't want a small government if

446
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:57,359
Speaker 1: he you know, he wants an organization he gets to control.

447
00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,800
Speaker 1: He wants a strong, the jackbooted government, right, and he

448
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:01,119
Speaker 1: wants to be in charge of all of it. But

449
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,560
Speaker 1: he doesn't want a small government. So we're not having

450
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:07,920
Speaker 1: that debate. But the remnants of that debate is why

451
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,520
Speaker 1: it's been so difficult to sell medicare for all politically. Right,

452
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,800
Speaker 1: it's the and it's the fear of losing the choice.

453
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,240
Speaker 1: It's not the cost. I've always I know cost is

454
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,080
Speaker 1: an I think cost is the excuse. I think the

455
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,359
Speaker 1: harder thing because you said something else really important that

456
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 1: I think makes health care policy so hard politically, which

457
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:33,440
Speaker 1: is because we all use the system. We think we're experts, right,

458
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,000
Speaker 1: we are because our personal experience. We are experts at

459
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,239
Speaker 1: you know, my father's experience, you know your experience as

460
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,400
Speaker 1: a father with your kids. We're experts at those experiences.

461
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,280
Speaker 1: But we actually don't know anything else. But we think

462
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 1: we know a lot, which is why politically this is

463
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:52,119
Speaker 1: such a difficult thing to sell.

464
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,160
Speaker 3: I'll say a couple of things on that. Right.

465
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,520
Speaker 2: On the education side, there actually is a zero sum

466
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,360
Speaker 2: invent min of money, right, like either the money goes

467
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,199
Speaker 2: in or it doesn't go in. But like when it

468
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 2: comes to maximizing your own health, like I fiber Max,

469
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,160
Speaker 2: I protein Max, like I wear two health tractors. Right,

470
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 2: And that's not to say that I think that I

471
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 2: can protect myself from ever being exposed to the flu

472
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,280
Speaker 2: when I happen to be out and about in the world.

473
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 3: So I value a public health care system that protects me.

474
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 2: Out and about, while I also do the things that

475
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,880
Speaker 2: I can do to control my own destiny. And the

476
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:29,480
Speaker 2: reality of it is that I think one of the

477
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 2: mistakes we make is we actually fall into this this

478
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,160
Speaker 2: thot this not that trap. It's not this or it's

479
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 2: not this, not that it's this or that it's this

480
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 2: and that. Right, you can actually do both things like yes,

481
00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 2: go work out. Yes, if you want to, you know,

482
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:45,199
Speaker 2: take so and so supplement, Like there might not be

483
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,119
Speaker 2: much evidence for it, but if you want to, like

484
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 2: as long as it doesn't hurt you and you spend

485
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 2: the money on it, go ahead. And also we can

486
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 2: also get vaccinated to protect ourselves and others. And actually,

487
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 2: we want to live in a world where other people

488
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,680
Speaker 2: are vaccinated because it decreases the probability that we're exposed.

489
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:02,399
Speaker 2: The other point I'll make just on Medicare for All

490
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 2: what you made about choice, which I think is a

491
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:08,160
Speaker 2: really important one. I think the industry has played this

492
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,679
Speaker 2: radical game where they trick us about the choice we

493
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 2: actually want. I don't think the choice we actually want

494
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 2: is in October or November to choose between three plans

495
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,399
Speaker 2: that kind of look the same, that force us to

496
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 2: play Russian roulette with the probability of getting sick based

497
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,160
Speaker 2: on how big or deductible is. I think the choice

498
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 2: we want is to get to walk into whatever doctor

499
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 2: we want to go see and to know that we're

500
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 2: going to be able to get care.

501
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 3: And the system that we have right now literally robs

502
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 3: us of that choice.

503
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,360
Speaker 2: Right, the idea that you have in network versus out

504
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 2: of network, or you could go and get a surgery

505
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 2: and the anesthesiologist who is appointed to your case is

506
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 2: now out of network, which means that you have to

507
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 2: pay exorbitantly for a choice you didn't get to make.

508
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 3: Right, that's not choice at all.

509
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 2: What Medicare for All does is it's basically like healthcare citizenship.

510
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:56,879
Speaker 2: You now get to walk. It's like when you go

511
00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 2: to Disneyland, right you pay the entry price and then

512
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 2: you get to pick which ride you want to ride.

513
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 2: Not everybody's choice or experience of Disneyland is the same.

514
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 2: Some of somebody rode Splash Mountain, somebody rode Thunder Mountain,

515
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,119
Speaker 2: somebody rode whatever else mountain there is in Disneyland nowadays.

516
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 2: But you got to pick which one you got to

517
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,199
Speaker 2: go to because you got to walk in. And the

518
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 2: problem right now is a lot of folks are locked

519
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 2: out of that system. And it's like, depending upon what

520
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 2: ticket you buy, you can only get to some rides

521
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,160
Speaker 2: but not other rides. And I just think that if

522
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 2: the government said, hey, everybody gets a ticket, now you

523
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 2: get to decide what experience you want. That's the choice

524
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 2: we all want, and the system that we have right

525
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,919
Speaker 2: now is taking that away. And I think we need

526
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 2: to be able to be very honest with people about

527
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 2: what that choice is and how we actually get it.

528
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 3: And I think Medicare for All would be critical to

529
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 3: doing that.

530
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 1: So would you have a semi private, hized healthcare system

531
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 1: still under a Medicare for All insurance system?

532
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, Chuck, So under Medicare for all. Health insurance is public.

533
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 2: Healthcare stays private, so private hospitals, private practices, private, whatever,

534
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:04,199
Speaker 2: right they're selling health care on the market. You just

535
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,479
Speaker 2: get to take your healthcare dollar that's given to you.

536
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 2: Similarly like Medicare itself, right, that's given to you because

537
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 2: because you literally paid your toxes into the system and

538
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 2: you got access to it, you get to go and

539
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 2: decide where you get to go. Right now, depending upon

540
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 2: what health insurer you have, you are locked out of

541
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 2: some providers and not others well, and therein lies the problem.

542
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 1: Aren't you still going to have Aren't you still going

543
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: to be locked out anyway? Isn't there still going to

544
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: be a tiered system? You know, if you raise the floor,

545
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 1: you're still going to have some that leave the system

546
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: and go fully private. Or we've seen the the the

547
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 1: advent of the concierge doctors and all of that business.

548
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: Right now, I would argue that no matter what system

549
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: you have, you're always going to have right that the

550
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: elite is that super wealthy or might manufacture their own

551
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: system anyway, no matter what system you create, because they

552
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: have the resources to do it. But I feel like

553
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 1: we're always chasing that that that would be a semi concern.

554
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 3: Let me say a couple of things.

555
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 2: I'm not as concerned about theoretical questions of super elite

556
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 2: people opting out of the system and creating on system.

557
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 2: I'm more concerned with whether or not everybody in our

558
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,120
Speaker 2: society can get access to the health care they need,

559
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 2: and that their experience of it gives them quality healthcare

560
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 2: and does not cost them a fortune and or potentially

561
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 2: their financial livelihood. And I'll be honest with you in

562
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 2: my articulation to Medicare for all, if your union or

563
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,199
Speaker 2: your employer has a bump over Medicare or whatever, we

564
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 2: end up calling the public health insurance system, and you

565
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 2: want to use that and you can get health care

566
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 2: through that, Okay, that's okay to me. But I think

567
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,479
Speaker 2: right now is that we're using this false idea of

568
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 2: choice to keep us from actually having the choices that

569
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 2: we actually want. Because the vast majority of people right

570
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 2: are not going to opt into some kind of service.

571
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 2: They're going to want to go and see the doctor

572
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 2: or the clinic of their choice, and under this system,

573
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 2: you actually can't do that. Under the private health insurance system,

574
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 2: you are relegated to what is quote unquote in network.

575
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 2: And I want people to understand what in network means.

576
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 2: It means that your health insurer has negotiated, negotiated a

577
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 2: buddy price with that particular system so that the transaction,

578
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 2: the financial transaction that happens, is beneficial to both parties.

579
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 3: So if you want your choices curtailed by what's.

580
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 2: Financially beneficial to your health insurer and the hospital that

581
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,239
Speaker 2: you're allowed to go to, Okay, that's the system we have.

582
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 2: But if you want to be able to say, hey, look,

583
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 2: I think that hospital or that clinician down the street

584
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 2: would serve me better and I could get a better

585
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 2: experience getting a colonoscopy or a better experience because I

586
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 2: have to have gall bladder surgery, I want to go there.

587
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 3: Medicare for All gives you the best shot at that.

588
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 2: Now, if you're somebody in that system who wants to say, look,

589
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 2: I'm going to take I'm gonna pay cash and go

590
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 2: into concier source system, fine, if that's something somebody wants

591
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 2: to do. But that's not a concern to me that

592
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 2: theoretically that'll happen, right because under this system, the fact

593
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 2: that the vast, vast, vast majority of American public will

594
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 2: have access to this medicare based system. Means that the vast, vast,

595
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 2: vast majority of healthcare providers are going to take it,

596
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 2: which means that now you can kind of go anywhere

597
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 2: and you're free to choose based on what the market

598
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 2: was supposed to do. Better service, you get more patients,

599
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 2: and you grow. That's how the system is supposed to work.

600
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: This is why I love this format so much better

601
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,439
Speaker 1: than the old eight to ten minute interview. You know,

602
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 1: we went We went twenty five minutes on this one topic.

603
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 1: Because you need twenty five minutes to talk about it,

604
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: it's not easy to get the nuance I want to move.

605
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: I'm going to do a little more hardcore politics with

606
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: you here a little bit. Let's talk about your twenty

607
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: eighteen race for governor. What did you learn from it

608
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: and why did you think you were a better candidate

609
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: than Gretchen Wimmer.

610
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I learned a lot from it. It was

611
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 3: a really intense experience getting to.

612
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 2: My understanding of politics at the time was sort of

613
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 2: similar to what you would have in high school civics

614
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,959
Speaker 2: and based a lot in the advice I'd gotten from

615
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 2: people who knew politics better than me. Trump had just

616
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 2: been elected. I was aghast at what that said about

617
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 2: our country. I happened to grow up in a home

618
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 2: where I watched two people from very different walks of

619
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 2: life build something that was special and greater than some

620
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 2: of its parts.

621
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 3: And I knew I had a story to tell about

622
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 3: who we are.

623
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 2: And I knew that I had the capacity to lead

624
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 2: government agencies to do good work.

625
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 3: I'd had that experience.

626
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 2: I didn't appreciate just how important it is that people

627
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 2: kind of know your name, and I didn't realize how

628
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 2: powerful a lot of the party institutions would be when

629
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 2: I ran at the time, right I knew that Governor

630
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 2: Whitmer was going to be running than State Representative Whimmer

631
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 2: was going to be running, And I knew I just

632
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 2: had a different story to tell, and I knew I

633
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 2: had executive experience government that was different than the experience

634
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 2: that she brought to it. I learned a lot, though,

635
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 2: about just how important those relationships in the party could be.

636
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 2: And ultimately we had our primary. We finished second of three.

637
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 2: We got out spent seven to one, but earned thirty

638
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 2: percent of the votes, and coming back at it. I'll

639
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 2: be honest with you, I didn't quite appreciate just how

640
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 2: big a swing I had taken. I was thirty two,

641
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 2: had never run for office in my life. I've had

642
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 2: maybe two years of public There.

643
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: Is a little bit of who do you think you are? Really?

644
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: You're showing up here at thirty two. Some of us

645
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: had to wait twenty years for this shot, right, And.

646
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 2: This time around, I'm forty years old and I was

647
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 2: living in my in law's basement. Now I have two

648
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 2: kids in a mortgage. I've been around in public service

649
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 2: now for about ten years, and folks know who I am.

650
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 2: And the thing that folks always kind of say is that,

651
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 2: like I do, what, You've been saying the same thing

652
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 2: for as long as we've been hearing your name, and

653
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 2: I have. And I think that consistency really matters, particularly

654
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 2: when it is honest about the structures of our politics

655
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 2: that have failed us. I said something in twenty eighteen.

656
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 2: I think folks weren't quite ready to hear at the time,

657
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 2: and it's that Donald Trump himself is not the disease

658
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 2: of our politics. He's just the worst symptom of the disease,

659
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 2: and the disease of our politics is the system that

660
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 2: allows huge corporations to buy and sell access to politicians

661
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 2: to help write legislation that rigs the rules for them

662
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 2: and against us. And you see it happening in every

663
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 2: part of our life. Donald Trump was very good at

664
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 2: weaponizing the pain that comes out of that system into

665
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 2: a certain nihilism about our politics generally.

666
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 3: And that's exactly what he did.

667
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 2: He did twice. And like I hate to say it, right,

668
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 2: Like that's what happens with symptoms. When you treat a symtom,

669
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 2: you don't treat the disease, it always comes back worse.

670
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 2: And we're dealing with the worst case of these symptoms now.

671
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 1: Well. And I always say this about the voter, which

672
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: is to go back to a sort of a healthcare

673
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: metaphor I used to use, which is, you know, why

674
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: was somebody willing to take a risk on Donald Trump?

675
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: Because they didn't want to take care of the disease.

676
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: They wanted to cure it. They either die or cure it,

677
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: so they'll take something that is extreme because they'd rather

678
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: have either end it or total relief. I don't want

679
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: to manage it. Right, And there was a time and

680
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 1: I think the alternative to Trump was no, no, no, no,

681
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: we can manage the disease. And it's like, you know,

682
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: I think people get frustrated with that. Maybe I'm botching it.

683
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 1: So if you if you want to check, if you

684
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: want to go for it. Yeah, no, I think, I think.

685
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 2: I think the metaphors is a very good one because

686
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 2: the other side of it is it tells us a

687
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: lot about what people were frustrated about Democrats, particularly now,

688
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 2: if you have a choice between one doctor who says

689
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 2: your pain is real, I see it, and I know

690
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 2: how frustrating it is for you. Here's some crazy ass

691
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 2: medication you could take versus someone who just says, I

692
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 2: don't think your pain is real. I think, look look

693
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 2: at look at the summary statistics of the economy.

694
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 3: Of course, the economy is doing great under my leadership.

695
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 3: Which one do you go to?

696
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 2: And one of the first things they teach you in medicine,

697
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 2: And you know, folks ask me, like, I don't practice

698
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 2: medicine day today. What is the applicability of your work

699
00:32:58,160 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 2: in medicine to politics?

700
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 3: Is to things?

701
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 2: I learned how to listen to people in profound pain,

702
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 2: and I learned how to have a conversation with people

703
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 2: in profound pain. And I'll tell you that's the thing

704
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 2: about pain is that it leads to, especially when it's ignored,

705
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 2: a certain level of cynicism about the possibility of cure

706
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 2: at all. And so we've got to be really good

707
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 2: at meeting people about where they are and what they

708
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 2: tell us about their pain, and being honest about what's

709
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 2: causing it and how we work together, because that's the

710
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 2: other thing in medicine you have to do. It is like, look,

711
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 2: I wish I could stap my fingers and make the

712
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 2: pain go away. But here's what we actually can do

713
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 2: within the bounds of what we understand. Here's what we

714
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 2: can do together. And I promise you right, we're going

715
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 2: to do all we can to make this feel better.

716
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 2: And I think too often Democrats have said we're not

717
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 2: actually like, let's be clear, our donors are part of

718
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 2: the problem, and we don't want to face them down.

719
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 2: So let's just ignore the pain and pretend like it

720
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 2: doesn't exist, which is the best way never to get

721
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 2: your patient to pay attention to you ever.

722
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 3: Again.

723
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: Assess Governor Wetmer's governorship. Was it better than you thought

724
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 1: it would be? Worse exactly what you thought. Is there

725
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: something you would have done differently?

726
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 2: I mean it's impossible to go back eight years and

727
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 2: say I would have done things differently.

728
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 3: Look, I think she did a great job leading through

729
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 3: the pandemic.

730
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 2: Obviously, I'm a physician, epidemiologist who ran a health department,

731
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 2: so that probably would have been something I would have

732
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 2: had a level of insight into that. It's unfair to

733
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 2: ask anybody else in public service to have just given

734
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 2: my training and experiences. But I think she was strong

735
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 2: where she needed to be strong, she was reasonable where

736
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 2: she needed to be reasonable, and I think that by

737
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 2: and large, folks have been really grateful for her leadership.

738
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 2: You know, no two people are the same. You're always

739
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 2: going to deal with things differently. And you know, right now,

740
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 2: to be honest in some respects, like when I look

741
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 2: at this race and where we are in this moment,

742
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 2: I kind of, you know, maybe this is just the

743
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 2: person of faith in me, like it wasn't my time.

744
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 3: It was my time for a reason.

745
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 2: And I think about where we are today and the

746
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 2: message that I have, and I'm bringing the same message

747
00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 2: I brought in twenty eighteen.

748
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 3: I think the ability to actually govern on.

749
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 2: The message that you bring is not just a function

750
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 2: of that message, it's also a function of whether or

751
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 2: not people recognize it and see the structural features as

752
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 2: you talk about them around what needs to be done now.

753
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 2: And so I just think that this is the right

754
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 2: time for a candidate like me, and this is the

755
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:23,879
Speaker 2: right moment. I'll be honest with you, right, I see

756
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 2: that everywhere I go. I've been to fifty some cities now, Chuck,

757
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 2: I've probably done about one hundred public events, and no

758
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 2: matter where I go, right, people are like, it just

759
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 2: shouldn't be this hard, And they see in my candidacy

760
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 2: both a message that is as urgent as the moment

761
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 2: and also a consistency that demonstrates that when I tell

762
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 2: you I'm going to show up and I'm going to

763
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 2: take that fight on, You're going to believe that I'm

764
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 2: going to show up and take that fight on, because

765
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 2: you can't look at me and say, oh, that's a

766
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 2: guy who doesn't believe what he's saying. So I think

767
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 2: this is the right time for my leadership, and twenty

768
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 2: eighteen just wasn't.

769
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: What do you make of her governing style right now?

770
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 1: Where she is work with Trump where she felt like

771
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 1: it was in the best interest of Michigan. So I'll

772
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 1: tell you this, Yeah, and and what is that line

773
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 1: for you? Because even you get elected to the Senate,

774
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 1: there's still going to be a Donald Trump in the

775
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: White House, and that is a basic question. Do you

776
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: try to work with him where you can or not.

777
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 2: I will just say this, I've I've been around for

778
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 2: forty years now, and I've learned that I have a

779
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,320
Speaker 2: bit more of an instinct for a fight than most people.

780
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 2: So you know I am. I Am not going there

781
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 2: to make peace. I'm going there to win the peace.

782
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 2: And I recognize that winning the piece requires one to

783
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 2: be actively engaged in the battle.

784
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 1: So you're there to confront Trump, and Trump is on

785
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:47,879
Speaker 1: almost every level. So I'm let me. Let me put

786
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: I don't want to put words in your mouth, but

787
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: let me try and push back. If I have done this,

788
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 1: maybe you think Governor Whitmer hasn't confronted him the way

789
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: you would have in this moment.

790
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 3: No, I don't know.

791
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 2: I mean, I've been in public service now long enough

792
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,839
Speaker 2: to know that you don't really know everything that's on

793
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 2: another public servants plate.

794
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 3: You just don't.

795
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 2: And so dot I can't say that I understand the

796
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 2: equities that she's trying to balance. And she's been governor

797
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: long enough now that she both has the trust of

798
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 2: the people she governs, and I believe that she's doing

799
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 2: her best to try and manage the very difficult circumstance

800
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 2: on her plate. I'm running for US Senate, and at

801
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 2: the Senate it's a very different responsibility than as a governor. Right,

802
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 2: as a governor, your responsibility is you know that you

803
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 2: really do have to make sure budgets balance and that

804
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 2: you're able to sustain the critical public services that your

805
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 2: government offers.

806
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,760
Speaker 3: As a senator, I am one of one hundred offering

807
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 3: critical legislative leadership and accountability to the executive branch. Accountability

808
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 3: on Donald Trump. People in Michigan, if they elect me,

809
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 3: they will be electing me to go and hold him

810
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 3: accountable because he's clearly running in excess of any article

811
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 3: to rights that the Constitution or privileges that the Constitution

812
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 3: has given him. And so you know, I may be

813
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 3: more purpose fit for this particular job in this particular

814
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,399
Speaker 3: time against this particular president, but I'm not getting sent

815
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 3: out there to a peace I'm not getting out sent

816
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 3: out there to tell RFK Junior he's doing a great job,

817
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,399
Speaker 3: because he's not. I'm not getting sent out there right

818
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 3: to allow Donald Trump to continue to run rough shot

819
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 3: over the Constitution. I will be sent by voters in

820
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 3: the state of Michigan to reassert the power of the

821
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 3: US Senate and the Congress more generally, and to hold

822
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,280
Speaker 3: Trump and the people he's appointed to key executive office

823
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 3: roles accountable for their malfeasance. And I take that job

824
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:49,720
Speaker 3: really seriously.

825
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 2: And it just may be that, like this was the

826
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 2: right time for somebody like me, because I just don't

827
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 2: back down on a fight. And I'll just tell you this, chuck,

828
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 2: like you know, my name's been Abdul my whole life.

829
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 2: You can imagine, and sure, data schools sorts of stuff.

830
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 2: I've dealt with bullies, right, and I've learned that if

831
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 2: you let the bully take your lunch money once, you're

832
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 2: not going to eat lunch. So I made a hobbit

833
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 2: right of never letting bullies take my lunch money.

834
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 3: And so I think we need a lot more of

835
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 3: that in DC. Right now.

836
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: I find your primary opponents, the three of you. I

837
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: think these are three really interesting candidates, all of you

838
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 1: on your own are interesting, and I'm going to it

839
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: almost feels like the story of the Three Bears, and

840
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 1: it's different different porridges. Right, one's hot, one's cold, and

841
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: I don't know which one of the voters are going

842
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 1: to decide is just right. We don't know who Goldilocs

843
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:40,320
Speaker 1: is right now for the primary because you have one. Basically,

844
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 1: you guys are making three different i'd argue more stylistic

845
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: arguments versus. There's some substantive differences. I'm not going to

846
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 1: say there isn't. But my guess is that this feels

847
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 1: more to me like a sentiment vote, you know, a

848
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 1: fighter conciliator, right, whatever it is that you think the

849
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: moment needs, is that how you see your two opponents?

850
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:05,800
Speaker 2: No, chack, I'm gonna push back on that question. Okay,

851
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 2: I think there are some very serious substantive differences. I

852
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 2: have never taken a dime of corporate money. I ran

853
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 2: for governor in twenty eighteen. I didn't touch a dime

854
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 2: of corporate money. Then you've got a candidate who is

855
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,760
Speaker 2: taking oodles and oodles of corporate money and another candidate

856
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 2: who decided, you know, a couple of months ago that

857
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 2: maybe this corporate money thing is really actually part of

858
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 2: the problem. I think if that is not central to

859
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 2: your assessment of what's what's at stake and what the

860
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 2: issues are, there's a fundamentally different thesism that.

861
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 1: For you, so that in your mind almost eliminates one

862
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 1: candidate for you.

863
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:38,959
Speaker 2: In your head, I mean, I think in my mind,

864
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 2: I think it highlights the difference between me and almost

865
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 2: anybody else. Okay, if like, if you're I mean, I

866
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 2: told you my thesis on this is that Donald Trump

867
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 2: is the symptom of a broader disease. That disease is

868
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 2: the way that corporations and special interests can dominate our politics.

869
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 2: If you don't see that as the disease, and we're

870
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:58,280
Speaker 2: just we're just dealing with with fundamentally different issues, We're.

871
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,240
Speaker 1: Way to talk is in your mind, we're just not having.

872
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:02,439
Speaker 3: The same conversation, right.

873
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 2: And the hard part is it really comes down to

874
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 2: do you think that Trump himself is the fundamental issue

875
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 2: or do you believe that when Trump came down that

876
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 2: hideous escalator back in twenty fifteen, there were structural features

877
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 2: in our society that people were really really frustrated by

878
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 2: that he was able to exploit to come to power.

879
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 2: And my point is, yes, you've got to be Donald Trump.

880
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 2: I don't back down to bullies. But the second point

881
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 2: is this, what are you for? Everybody's against Donald Trump?

882
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 2: What are you actually for?

883
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 3: Right?

884
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,240
Speaker 2: I can say Medicare for all because I've never taken

885
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 2: a dime from a corporate health insurance company or a

886
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 2: pharmaceutical company. I can talk about taking on DTE and

887
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 2: our local utilities because they spent two hundred thousand dollars

888
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 2: to beat me in my last election, and I've never

889
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:47,280
Speaker 2: touched a dime of their money.

890
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 3: So it is a substantive. It's not even substantive.

891
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 2: It is philosophically different about what we think the issue

892
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 2: in our public policy and our politics are. So if

893
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:58,359
Speaker 2: you want somebody who's going to stand up to Donald

894
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 2: Trump and on the next day understand how to address

895
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 2: someone like him ever coming to power again, then I'm

896
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:07,319
Speaker 2: probably your guy. The other thing I'll say is this,

897
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 2: right now, they are tearing apart government as we know it,

898
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 2: And ask yourself, what are the skill sets that you

899
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 2: want represented.

900
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 3: In the US Senate? Right?

901
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 2: I am categorically different than anybody else in the US Senate,

902
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 2: there is not, never been.

903
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 1: You're not a lawyer state, so that automatically makes you

904
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 1: a minority of when it comes to Democratic candidates. That

905
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 1: I mean. There was a great little stat over the

906
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 1: weekend about just how many Democrat elected members of Congress

907
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 1: or lawyers versus the other side, which is a lot

908
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 1: more diverse backgrounds at least, and I will say.

909
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 3: Neither of it. And I want to be clear.

910
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 2: I have a lot of respect for both of my opponents,

911
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 2: and I think anybody running for office right now takes

912
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 2: a lot of courage and a lot of effort, and

913
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 2: I commend them and anyone running for office right now.

914
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,399
Speaker 2: But I also say that it's not just that neither

915
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 2: of them are lawyers. It's that we are watching the

916
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 2: desecration of health and human services, the destruction of a

917
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,399
Speaker 2: critical piece of notional security infrastructure in health and human

918
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 2: services get destroyed. So ask yourself, what don't we have

919
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 2: at the US Senate and what will we need to

920
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 2: be able to build our government back to what we

921
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 2: should have had right I just want to be clear

922
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 2: about this. I don't think that CDC, FDA and IH

923
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 2: were serving the best of what they could have been.

924
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 3: I think there was a lot of reform that was possible.

925
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 2: So ask yourself, like, who do you want in the

926
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 2: room to build what we should have moving forward for

927
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 2: the twenty first century, And I think I offer a

928
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 2: very different set of skills. And the third point I'll

929
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 2: just make here is this, I don't I'm not a

930
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 2: career politician, right, It's not something that I grew up

931
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 2: saying I really want to do this.

932
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 1: Well, okay, let me push back. Someone's going to say, well,

933
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 1: you ran for office at thirty two and all this,

934
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 1: So I take your point, but somebody might dispute that

935
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: what I would say.

936
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:54,879
Speaker 2: I also rebuilt a health department. I led a different one.

937
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 2: I wrote the book on Medicare for All. I trained

938
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 2: as a physician and an epidemiologist. And so if you

939
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 2: ask yourself what makes people sick, at some point you're

940
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 2: probably going to get to that question of maybe it's

941
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 2: our politics. So for me, this is like a logical

942
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 2: continuation of what I set out to do when I

943
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 2: decided I wanted to make my life about improving people's health.

944
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 1: You know, it'd be really interesting if you and Amy

945
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 1: acting over in the state next door, end up overperforming

946
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: there both sort of she you know, she was not

947
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 1: a politician, and then saw what happened and decided to

948
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,400
Speaker 1: jump into It's interesting to get see more people with

949
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 1: public health experience decide, Okay, you know, maybe maybe we

950
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:38,879
Speaker 1: had to cut out the middleman here.

951
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 2: And it's not a you know, it's not a coincidence, jrue.

952
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 2: I think I think enough of us see what's happened.

953
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 2: You get into these rules where you're like, oh, I

954
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 2: can really improve the health and well being of my community,

955
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 2: and you start to see how.

956
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: Political it all is. Then you realize how hard it

957
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: really is, and you're like, really, why is it so difficult?

958
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 3: Right? Right?

959
00:44:57,760 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 2: And I just think that like all of this kind

960
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 2: it goes together. If you're serious about building the kind

961
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 2: of America that dignifies the well being of its children,

962
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 2: you do things very differently. And that's you know, when

963
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 2: people ask like how come you how come you buck

964
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 2: these trends, I'm like, look, if I never get into

965
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 2: public office, that's okay. But I swore an oath and

966
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 2: I've tried to do the work that is that that

967
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:24,720
Speaker 2: oath implies, and so I would rather not get elected

968
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 2: than get elected and hamstring myself to do the work

969
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 2: that I got elected to do. So you know, I'm

970
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 2: going to run the campaign the way that I think

971
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 2: it ought to be run. The last thing that hasn't

972
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 2: come up here, Chuck, is is just this our values.

973
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 2: When we talk about values should apply in all places

974
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 2: in all times.

975
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 3: There shouldn't be on your values.

976
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 1: You're transitioning to the topic I was about to get to.

977
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 1: But go ahead, Yeah, I don't.

978
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 3: I don't steal your thunder.

979
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 1: You're welcome. No, no, no, no, I'm just saying that.

980
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 2: You know, there's the difference between a political position and

981
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 2: a principle, and the difference is this, if your principles

982
00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 2: are get kept by space and time, they're not principles,

983
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,439
Speaker 2: they're just political positions. So, you know, when I think

984
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 2: about our responsibility abroad, and maybe part of this is

985
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 2: the fact that I actually have experiences being abroad and

986
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,879
Speaker 2: seeing how people see America because of the things that

987
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 2: too often our policymakers do in very wayward ways. It's

988
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 2: a crazy thing to me that we in an era

989
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 2: where our kids schools are crumbling, we can barely afford

990
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 2: healthcare for our kids, and they're trying to rip it

991
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 2: away we send blank checks to foreign militaries to drop

992
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:30,839
Speaker 2: bombs on other people's kids and their schools and their infrastructure.

993
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 2: And to me, like, you can't say that because you're

994
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:36,320
Speaker 2: too afraid of what that might mean for some special

995
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 2: interest coming and spending against you.

996
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 3: Then it's just you are playing politics.

997
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 2: I don't play politics, and that is a huge difference

998
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 2: between me and Frankly, Unfortunately, too many people running for

999
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,240
Speaker 2: USN anywhere, particularly here in Michigan.

1000
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 1: You know, look in some ways, I know a lot

1001
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:03,799
Speaker 1: of national reporters are going to parachute into this race

1002
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 1: and do the democratic primary story through the prism of Gaza.

1003
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,399
Speaker 1: That that's going to be how this is done, pure

1004
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 1: and simple. I think the conversation we've had, it's obvious

1005
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 1: that if you pay attention to this campaign, it's it's

1006
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 1: it's well, let me ask you this, how much has

1007
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 1: got what percentage of this campaign in your mind is

1008
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,919
Speaker 1: about Gaza in the primary? How much do voters care

1009
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 1: and how much of it do you think it should

1010
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 1: be a voting issue.

1011
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 3: In this primary?

1012
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 2: Let me I'm going to push back on the premise

1013
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 2: of the question for a second, Okay, And because we're

1014
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 2: in a long form here let me just let me

1015
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 2: just nerd out for a second here inepidy miology. Oftentimes,

1016
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 2: what you do is you fit a graph to a

1017
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 2: set of data, and then you ask about the impact

1018
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 2: of anyone variable in a particular outcome, as if those

1019
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 2: variables don't architect on top of each other. And so

1020
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 2: we end up being implicitly reductive with any lens that

1021
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 2: we apply to analyze the situation. So the question that

1022
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:01,879
Speaker 2: is asked is off and how much of a vote

1023
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 2: share does Gaza control because of what people think about Gaza?

1024
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 2: And I think in Michigan quite a lot to answer

1025
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 2: that question. But I actually think that the operational rule

1026
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 2: of the question of calling a genocide when you see

1027
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 2: it is as a values rarshock test. It is foundational

1028
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:24,720
Speaker 2: to whether or not I can believe that you're serious

1029
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 2: when you tell me that you're going to stand up

1030
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 2: to a corporate CEO or you're going to stand up

1031
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 2: to Donald Trump, because if you can't call what is

1032
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 2: happening when they kill eighteen thy, five hundred kids, sixty

1033
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 2: thousand people total, render their entire homes unlivable, kill journalists,

1034
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 2: destroy hospitals, and then try and push them into a

1035
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 2: different country because they happen to speak the same language.

1036
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,400
Speaker 2: If you can't call that a genocide, then I question

1037
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 2: your moral judgment generally or your understanding of the English language.

1038
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 2: So I just think that at some point it tells

1039
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 2: you whether or not people are actually serious about the

1040
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 2: values that they purport to have. So how can I

1041
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 2: trust you when you can't even push against the enforced

1042
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:01,840
Speaker 2: language of your own party being enforced by maga billionaires,

1043
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 2: by the way, to actually show up and fight against

1044
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 2: Donald Trump, or to show up and fight against the

1045
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:09,719
Speaker 2: pharmaceutical lobby, or to show up and fight against the

1046
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 2: corporate insurance CEOs. It undercuts all of those things. So

1047
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 2: as a direct issue, yeah, it is profound. This is

1048
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 2: a genocide that's paid for by our tax dollars that

1049
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 2: are not being used to spend on our kids. But

1050
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:24,320
Speaker 2: as an indirect issue, it is become such a moral

1051
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:26,279
Speaker 2: lens to see the world, because if you can't see

1052
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 2: the obvious thing in front of you, how can I

1053
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 2: trust you to see the other things as well? How

1054
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 2: can I trust you when you tell me you're going

1055
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 2: to fight for me?

1056
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:35,280
Speaker 1: Do you believe Israel was justified to go after Hamas

1057
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:36,880
Speaker 1: after October.

1058
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 2: So I think I think the question is I mean,

1059
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 2: let me step back. When we talk about justified, right,

1060
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:47,319
Speaker 2: I don't know what that means in the context of

1061
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 2: all of this, because you know, I condemned Hamass on

1062
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 2: day one, and I condemned ham Ass because they killed

1063
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 2: innocent people. They kidnapped children. Anybody who kidnaps innocent people

1064
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 2: or kill's children is wrong. That's wrong, right, But then

1065
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 2: the question of how many then people, right, twelve hundred

1066
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:07,919
Speaker 2: people were killed innocent people?

1067
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:08,720
Speaker 3: That is wrong.

1068
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 2: It is condemnable, and that's why I condemned it. But

1069
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 2: then the question then becomes Okay, so what then becomes

1070
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 2: justified in the context of that awful atrocity. I think

1071
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 2: it's really really difficult to answer what a line would

1072
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 2: have been because I think a lot of us who've

1073
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 2: been watching that situation for a very long time would say,

1074
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 2: we all knew where this was going, and we all

1075
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 2: knew that there were people like Smotrich and ben Gevier

1076
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:37,719
Speaker 2: and Netanyahu who were going to see in that in

1077
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:41,879
Speaker 2: opportunity to answer to a base that sees this as

1078
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 2: a messianic issue, not just one around protecting innocent people.

1079
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 1: Look, I would argue the streams want each other, right,

1080
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 1: Hamas would love a further to the right Israeli government

1081
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: and vice versa. It's sick to say it that way,

1082
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: but in some way the extremes strengthen each other, which

1083
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:04,240
Speaker 1: is part of the problem.

1084
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 2: And I think that you are exactly you are exactly correct,

1085
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 2: and then I think about what how do we get

1086
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 2: to a place where we can imagine an ultimate piece.

1087
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 2: And that's the worry that I have is that every

1088
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:23,880
Speaker 2: president before this guy, who's ever been president in the

1089
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:26,760
Speaker 2: United States since the existence of the State of Israel,

1090
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:29,280
Speaker 2: has said that they believe in a two state solution.

1091
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:31,839
Speaker 2: And then the problem with it is that we aid

1092
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 2: arm in a bed the very people who then want

1093
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:40,320
Speaker 2: to foreclose on the possibility of a Palestinian state. And

1094
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 2: yet we're sitting here saying we believe in a two

1095
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:44,399
Speaker 2: state solution, and then our money goes in a different place.

1096
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 2: And so to me, I find some of these questions

1097
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 2: kind of incoherent because they are decontextualized from the circumstance.

1098
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 3: On the ground.

1099
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,479
Speaker 2: Right, what Hamas did is awful, it's terrible, it's wrong,

1100
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 2: it's condemnable, and what the Israeli government has been doing

1101
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 2: is wrong, awful, contemptible and should be condemned. And the

1102
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:06,319
Speaker 2: problem is that you know I'm running for senator from Michigan, right,

1103
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:09,720
Speaker 2: I'm not running for senator from anywhere else. My responsibility

1104
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 2: is to where we spend our tax dollars. And my

1105
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 2: point is, it's not my job. There's too much hubrius,

1106
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 2: frankly among American policy makers to get to think that

1107
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:19,359
Speaker 2: they get to dictate what the ultimate piece looks like.

1108
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:21,799
Speaker 3: It's not my job. My job is to.

1109
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 2: Make sure that American taxpayers gets what's best for the taxes.

1110
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:26,759
Speaker 3: That they pay.

1111
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 2: And I think sending blank checks to foreign militaries and

1112
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 2: by the way, not just Israel, but Egypt and Jordan

1113
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 2: and Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, right, all of whom have

1114
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 2: sustained military dictatorships over their own people. I just don't

1115
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 2: think that's a good value for pay for Michigan taxpayers,

1116
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 2: which is where I sit. And I don't want my

1117
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 2: tax dollars going to fund a genocide. I want my

1118
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,720
Speaker 2: tax dollars funding my kids' school. I want them funding

1119
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,360
Speaker 2: my healthcare. I want them funding my roads and bridges,

1120
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 2: and that shouldn't be so difficult to communicate while also saying, hey, look,

1121
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 2: this thing of killing this many people is an obvious genocide.

1122
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 2: They said they were going to do it, and then

1123
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 2: they did it. So what else do we want.

1124
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 1: To speak to the issue? And I think this is

1125
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 1: where a lot of it has been very difficult for

1126
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 1: Jewish Americans, frankly, no different than it was for Muslim

1127
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 1: Americans after nine to eleven, which is, you get thrown

1128
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 1: into one bucket, and every Jewish American feels like they're

1129
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:27,279
Speaker 1: being there, you know. And I always say, you know what,

1130
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 1: there's plenty of Jewish Americans who condemned bb but are

1131
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:36,320
Speaker 1: pro Israel, and you can have this nuanced position. Except

1132
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:40,319
Speaker 1: it doesn't look like you can, right. It feels like

1133
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 1: in our politics today it's very difficult to have that position.

1134
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 2: I hope that folks can find space. Right, what is

1135
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 2: it we all want? We all want everybody to have

1136
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:57,319
Speaker 2: peace and dignity and the right to self determination. And

1137
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 2: I think here what we want is not to be

1138
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:04,880
Speaker 2: assumed to believe anything based on the color of our skin,

1139
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 2: or our faith, or our ethnic background. And so I've

1140
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 2: been very very clear to say that the government of

1141
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,880
Speaker 2: Israel does not speak for the Jewish people or for Judaism,

1142
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 2: and I think we have to always differentiate between the

1143
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 2: Jewish people and Judaism and the government of Israel, and

1144
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:27,439
Speaker 2: any effort to try and muddle those two things up

1145
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 2: I think verges on the risk of anti Semitism. And

1146
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:33,439
Speaker 2: so I think we have to be very, very very

1147
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 2: honest about sustaining the space where people can have a

1148
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:42,240
Speaker 2: multiplicity of opinions, and also that we can engage in peaceful,

1149
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:46,959
Speaker 2: in honest, in direct, in vulnerable conversation with each other

1150
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:51,399
Speaker 2: about what we think the best course of American action

1151
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:54,319
Speaker 2: ought to be to beget the outcomes that we want,

1152
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:58,640
Speaker 2: which is peace, dignity, and the right of self determination

1153
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 2: for Palestinians and its Israelis alike. And I just think

1154
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 2: that if you start with those principles, it becomes a

1155
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 2: lot easier from there to step forward and say, okay,

1156
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:09,240
Speaker 2: then what ought to be done? How do we actually

1157
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 2: do this thing? Moving from this really difficult situation in Chuckov,

1158
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:14,080
Speaker 2: just go back to the point you made, which is

1159
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 2: you've got extremes that have dominated the conversation because they

1160
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:22,760
Speaker 2: can always hijack that conversation and force people to respond

1161
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 2: to the most extreme thing they just did. And I

1162
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:27,280
Speaker 2: hate to say it, but like you've got those extremes

1163
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 2: winning the day. And I don't know where we go

1164
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:32,439
Speaker 2: from here, but I do hope that more of us,

1165
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:35,920
Speaker 2: regardless of our ethnic or our faith backgrounds, can have

1166
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 2: the courage to both differentiate between groups of people and

1167
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:44,040
Speaker 2: principle and the courage to have an honest, vulnerable, and

1168
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 2: direct conversation about what the best course of action for

1169
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:48,799
Speaker 2: the American public is now. Look, there's a lot of

1170
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:51,680
Speaker 2: money spent in our politics, mainly by maga billionaires with

1171
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 2: very particular opinions, to try and keep us from having

1172
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:57,239
Speaker 2: a direct and honest conversation. Like I told you, I've

1173
00:55:57,239 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 2: been all over my state and wherever I go, like

1174
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 2: I'll be an Escanaba in the up when I talk

1175
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 2: about the obvious trade off around our tax dollars. It's

1176
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,400
Speaker 2: one of the biggest applause lines I get. I've had

1177
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:09,920
Speaker 2: people come up to me like, how come I've never

1178
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 2: heard a politician say the things that you say? And

1179
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:14,839
Speaker 2: I'll say, well, because you know that point I always make.

1180
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 2: I'm running on three things, getting money out of politics,

1181
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 2: putting more money in your pocket and passing Medicare for

1182
00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:21,440
Speaker 2: all that first one right, makes it really really difficult

1183
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:24,760
Speaker 2: to have a direct conversation about where our tax dollars

1184
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:27,680
Speaker 2: go because people are too worried that maga billionaire money

1185
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:29,880
Speaker 2: is going to flow into a Democratic primary and dictate

1186
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 2: who gets to win and who gets to lose.

1187
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:33,359
Speaker 1: Let me ask one question on a word you use.

1188
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:36,240
Speaker 1: Some people hear the word genocide and they think, oh,

1189
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be able to have a nuanced

1190
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:40,319
Speaker 1: conversation with that person. Why are they wrong?

1191
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 3: I had a really meaningful experience.

1192
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:48,360
Speaker 2: I was invited to speak with the Jewish caucus of

1193
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:53,880
Speaker 2: the Michigan Democratic Party, and there were a lot of

1194
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:56,040
Speaker 2: questions about whether or not I would show And of

1195
00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 2: course I was going to show up because I love

1196
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:02,240
Speaker 2: and revere the Jewish people. I care a lot about

1197
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 2: my ability to make sure I understand their perspective and

1198
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 2: that I can serve them, because wants to be clear, like,

1199
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:10,239
Speaker 2: the fight against Islamophobia is the same as the fight

1200
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 2: against anti Semitism. Those those those those very.

1201
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 3: Right.

1202
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:17,800
Speaker 1: And by the way, and.

1203
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 2: I had a really well meaning gentleman, you know, he

1204
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 2: kind of came up to me afterwards, he said, first,

1205
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 2: I want to tell you you've got some fiz but

1206
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 2: for having showed up. I said, well, thank you. I

1207
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 2: appreciate that. He's like, you know, you're real much. I

1208
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 2: was like, you're really in there we go, I was like,

1209
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:35,920
Speaker 2: and he was like, but I disagree with you. I

1210
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 2: was like, that's not surprising to me. But can you

1211
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 2: share where you disagree? He said, you use the word genocide?

1212
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 3: I said, I do. He said why. I was like, well,

1213
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:43,880
Speaker 3: because the word.

1214
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:47,080
Speaker 2: Has a technical meaning and I was trained as a

1215
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 2: scientist to use the word for the thing that I

1216
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 2: am seeing. And he said, but how can you call

1217
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:57,800
Speaker 2: this a genocide in the face of something like the Holocaust?

1218
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:02,480
Speaker 2: And I said, I can understand the lived experience, or

1219
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 2: the shared familial, intergenerational experience of the Holocaust and the insane, profound,

1220
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 2: almost incalculable degree of pain that was inflicted upon the

1221
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 2: Jewish people by a madman, dictator, genocidal, maniac and Hitler.

1222
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 2: I can understand why the pain of that my echo

1223
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:34,040
Speaker 2: in ways where my use of that word could be painful.

1224
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 2: I understand that, and I appreciate you sharing it. And

1225
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:43,640
Speaker 2: at the same time, if the only historical moment to

1226
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 2: which we can use the word genocide is the Holocaust,

1227
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 2: then we're setting an extraordinary high bar which basically renders

1228
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 2: the word how genocide unusable in any other situation.

1229
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:56,479
Speaker 3: And so I.

1230
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 2: Don't know how to both talk about this and say

1231
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:02,880
Speaker 2: that this is not the Holocaust. Let's be clear, right,

1232
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 2: six million people did not were not killed or exterminated

1233
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 2: in gas chambers, and yet the word was meant to

1234
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:19,200
Speaker 2: protect innocent people from being rendered subjects of war so

1235
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 2: profound that it targeted them based on ethnicity in a

1236
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 2: particular place and intended specifically to bring about their particular demise.

1237
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,680
Speaker 2: I think, in the memory of the Holocaust is our

1238
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 2: responsibility to make sure that nothing like that, even to

1239
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:40,480
Speaker 2: a far, far lesser degree, happens again. And so I

1240
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 2: just think that we have to be willing to use

1241
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 2: it when we believe that it meets those technical criteria,

1242
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 2: and that is to me, the best way to dignify,

1243
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:55,840
Speaker 2: right that awful, terrible memory in a way that renders

1244
00:59:56,520 --> 01:00:00,080
Speaker 2: it meaningful and protects other people from ever having to

1245
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:03,280
Speaker 2: befall something like that again. But I honestly understand that

1246
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:06,320
Speaker 2: this is a painful, challenging scenario. So I hope that

1247
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:08,920
Speaker 2: folks who are listening and folks who hear me use

1248
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 2: that word understand that I do not in any way

1249
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:17,160
Speaker 2: undermine or demean the incredible crime against humanity that the

1250
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 2: genocide of the Holocaust was. But we don't have the

1251
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 2: past to control. We have the future to control. And

1252
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:24,680
Speaker 2: the question of the way we use words to move

1253
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:27,560
Speaker 2: the future, I think that's that's the way we ought

1254
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:28,280
Speaker 2: to be all think human.

1255
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:30,920
Speaker 1: So should we be saying more directly that China is

1256
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:32,560
Speaker 1: committing genocide on the leakers?

1257
01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, we should.

1258
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:37,479
Speaker 2: And the thing the reason that we don't is because

1259
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:39,960
Speaker 2: China is massively powerful, correct, and they swing their weight

1260
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 2: around to make sure that we don't use that word,

1261
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:46,080
Speaker 2: which is exactly why we should. I mean, like, this

1262
01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:49,840
Speaker 2: is the word that is used by definition among people

1263
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:53,880
Speaker 2: with some modicum of power to protect the powerless. If

1264
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 2: you're a powerful people, you don't.

1265
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:56,120
Speaker 3: Have genocide inflicted on you.

1266
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:59,480
Speaker 2: By definition, you are powerless when you have genocide inflicted

1267
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 2: on you.

1268
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 3: So it is all responsibility as people with some modicum

1269
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 3: of power to have the courage to use it.

1270
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:06,440
Speaker 2: Now, the reason that a lot of people don't is

1271
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:10,080
Speaker 2: because you often are talking about far more powerful actors.

1272
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:15,440
Speaker 1: And well and reason, Well, there's another reason sometimes not

1273
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:17,920
Speaker 1: to use it is that it suddenly the person turns

1274
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 1: off the head right, they turn you off. I'm not

1275
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:22,960
Speaker 1: listening to you if you're going to use that right

1276
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:26,080
Speaker 1: some words. That's why I ask. I mean, and I

1277
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 1: think you gave it. Look, if every voter gets an

1278
01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:33,960
Speaker 1: opportunity to hear your explanation, then I think you're you're, you're, you're,

1279
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:36,520
Speaker 1: You're going to have a leg up. But there are

1280
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:39,600
Speaker 1: some people there's the use of a word right. You

1281
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 1: know sometimes what do they call him? What is it

1282
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:43,200
Speaker 1: Godwin's law on the internet about Hitler?

1283
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 3: Right?

1284
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 1: And you know when it when an argument certain words.

1285
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:52,800
Speaker 1: That's why I ask, because that word can just somebody

1286
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:55,560
Speaker 1: may just literally turn it off. Up, I'm not listening

1287
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:58,240
Speaker 1: to him anymore. What do you say to that night?

1288
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:03,560
Speaker 2: I understand that that is an instinct that's there. I

1289
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:07,320
Speaker 2: think my job is to if I do my job well,

1290
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 2: it is to create the space in our public conversation

1291
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:15,960
Speaker 2: and our civic debate that enables us to do the

1292
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 2: things we need to do to create the kind of

1293
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:20,000
Speaker 2: future we all want to live in.

1294
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:20,760
Speaker 3: That's the work.

1295
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:24,240
Speaker 2: That's what at its best, that's what politicians are supposed

1296
01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:26,840
Speaker 2: to do. And I think if we shy away from

1297
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:30,320
Speaker 2: using the words as they're defined, I don't know that

1298
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:32,640
Speaker 2: we are doing the thing we need to do, to

1299
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:35,080
Speaker 2: do and to beget that future.

1300
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:35,680
Speaker 3: In the right way.

1301
01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:39,000
Speaker 2: And I understand that there's a trade off there, and

1302
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:43,040
Speaker 2: I think that there is this ability that we all

1303
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:46,400
Speaker 2: have to also master, which is to be able to

1304
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 2: use words responsibly, but use words correctly and always always

1305
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:55,120
Speaker 2: use them lovingly, which is to say, it's out of

1306
01:02:55,120 --> 01:03:00,360
Speaker 2: my love for Palestinian people and my love for Jewish

1307
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:05,320
Speaker 2: Israeli people that when I see people hurting other people,

1308
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 2: that I stop that thing from happening.

1309
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:09,960
Speaker 1: Look, I don't believe Israel safe until Palestinians are safe.

1310
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:12,160
Speaker 3: There's a tradition, a word in our tradition.

1311
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:15,360
Speaker 2: It's a saying of the prophet hummad piece me upon

1312
01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:18,520
Speaker 2: him where he said, give victory to your brother, meaning

1313
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:21,400
Speaker 2: you're like companion the person you're with, whether they're right

1314
01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:23,040
Speaker 2: or they're wrong. And they said, wait, what do you

1315
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:25,640
Speaker 2: mean by like they're right or they're wrong? He said,

1316
01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:29,080
Speaker 2: if they're wrong, protect them, And I'm sorry if they're right,

1317
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:32,640
Speaker 2: protect them right. But if they're wrong, then correct them.

1318
01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:36,200
Speaker 2: That's how you give somebody who's wrong victory. And I

1319
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:38,400
Speaker 2: just think that we would do well. It's not out

1320
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:41,000
Speaker 2: of a you know, obviously, I'm Arab, I know that,

1321
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:43,479
Speaker 2: and so when it comes from my mouth with my name,

1322
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:46,600
Speaker 2: people assume that it's a tribal thing. It really is not.

1323
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:49,640
Speaker 2: And this is why, like you know, I have taken

1324
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:52,560
Speaker 2: it on the chin. When I condemned Hamas on day one,

1325
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:54,920
Speaker 2: folks are like, well, you're not contextualizing it within the

1326
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:56,840
Speaker 2: broader occupation, et cetera, et cetera. I was like, look,

1327
01:03:57,200 --> 01:03:58,760
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, if you hurt kids,

1328
01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:02,439
Speaker 2: there's no context needed, and folks will be like, well,

1329
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:04,920
Speaker 2: like you must you must be a self hating Arab, etcetera, etcetera.

1330
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:07,760
Speaker 2: Like no, I am just a human loving Arab. Okay,

1331
01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:10,680
Speaker 2: I'm a human loving person. And when I think innocent

1332
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:13,120
Speaker 2: people are hurt, I'm going to show up and I'm

1333
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:14,880
Speaker 2: going to say the thing I think needs to be said.

1334
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:19,200
Speaker 2: And so I hope folks can understand that sometimes your

1335
01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:21,919
Speaker 2: experience set may give you an insight that's a little

1336
01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:25,160
Speaker 2: bit different. But ask people where their principles are and

1337
01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:27,480
Speaker 2: then ask them to apply their principles in all situations.

1338
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:29,920
Speaker 2: And when folks asked me, they're like, well, what about Egypt.

1339
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:31,320
Speaker 2: Then that's the first question I was get. Don't you

1340
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:32,959
Speaker 2: do you think we should stop sending money to Egypt.

1341
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:36,480
Speaker 2: I'm like, absolutely, we should, right, absolutely we should. And

1342
01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:38,760
Speaker 2: folks are like, wait, so so explain that. I'm like,

1343
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:40,560
Speaker 2: they're like Egyptian people like you. I'm like, yes, you

1344
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:43,800
Speaker 2: think I'm coming at this as a tribalist, I'm not like.

1345
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:47,160
Speaker 2: I spent childhood summers in Egypt. I watched as that

1346
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:50,600
Speaker 2: that tax money made Egyptians less free and less safe

1347
01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:51,360
Speaker 2: from their own government.

1348
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:52,160
Speaker 1: It's correct government.

1349
01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 2: I don't think us sending our money abroad is helping

1350
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:56,960
Speaker 2: us or helping them. And I think it's the same

1351
01:04:56,960 --> 01:04:59,000
Speaker 2: story when it comes to Israel. And I just think

1352
01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:00,480
Speaker 2: that we should apply our principle everyone.

1353
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:03,160
Speaker 1: I could keep going on. You're the exact kind of

1354
01:05:03,160 --> 01:05:07,000
Speaker 1: candidate that I love seeing out there, which is you're

1355
01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:13,000
Speaker 1: unafraid to have a straightforward conversation, you explain yourself, and

1356
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:15,240
Speaker 1: you know, I always say this politics is not about

1357
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:17,360
Speaker 1: finding somebody you agree with one hundred percent. Of the time.

1358
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:21,360
Speaker 1: It's finding someone who you think is willing to hear

1359
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:26,080
Speaker 1: you out here and simple, right, I say, civilization invented

1360
01:05:26,120 --> 01:05:30,640
Speaker 1: politics so that we would resolve conflicts without death and

1361
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:33,880
Speaker 1: without violence. You know, that is why we have politics,

1362
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:36,200
Speaker 1: That is why we created it. We were tired of

1363
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:42,280
Speaker 1: making every dispute resolve, resolving every dispute with violence. So look,

1364
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:46,920
Speaker 1: I see why my friend Ron Fortyer was putting up

1365
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:50,520
Speaker 1: the putting up the neon sign to saying, pay attention

1366
01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:54,120
Speaker 1: to this guy. He may get some traction. This has

1367
01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 1: been a pleasure. It's good to get to know you.

1368
01:05:56,080 --> 01:06:00,640
Speaker 1: And you know, that's why I love this long form

1369
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:03,840
Speaker 1: medium because we can have the nuance which I think

1370
01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:05,920
Speaker 1: we just did both on healthcare and Israel, which was

1371
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:10,320
Speaker 1: it's needed more and more in our politics, and unfortunately

1372
01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:12,760
Speaker 1: our media environment doesn't always reward that.

1373
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:15,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I appreciate you creating the space for it.

1374
01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 2: Appreciate Ron, I mean Ron, Ron has been. Ron told

1375
01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:23,160
Speaker 2: me something when I in twenty eighteen, which I'll never forget.

1376
01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:26,240
Speaker 2: You know, I was out there kind of like doing

1377
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:28,440
Speaker 2: my thing. I was thirty two, and like you know,

1378
01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:30,480
Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember feeling thirty two, but

1379
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:32,160
Speaker 2: you feel your emotions a lot more intensely.

1380
01:06:32,200 --> 01:06:33,760
Speaker 1: And when I had my first kid, Yeah, and then

1381
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:35,440
Speaker 1: I know you, Jay have all sorts of stuff going on.

1382
01:06:35,520 --> 01:06:37,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, you feel it right. He pulled me aside to

1383
01:06:37,640 --> 01:06:39,000
Speaker 2: a dou I want you to know something. I was like,

1384
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:41,439
Speaker 2: we say. He's like, look, I watched I watched Black

1385
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:44,680
Speaker 2: with Obama when he was young and coming up. I

1386
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:46,560
Speaker 2: watched Bill Clinton when he was young and coming up.

1387
01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:48,680
Speaker 2: He's like, you're not gonna win this race. I was like,

1388
01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:50,000
Speaker 2: And of course my response was.

1389
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:51,360
Speaker 3: Like, how do you know they have for you?

1390
01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:53,280
Speaker 1: Man? They run the race the first time they ran.

1391
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:55,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, And he's like, you're not going to win

1392
01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:57,520
Speaker 2: this race, but you need to keep going at this

1393
01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:01,600
Speaker 2: because you got something to share and I'm looking forward

1394
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:04,080
Speaker 2: to watching what you do next. And it was fascinating

1395
01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:06,320
Speaker 2: because I didn't win the race. And I've stay close

1396
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:09,280
Speaker 2: to Ron because he's the kind of person who is

1397
01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:13,160
Speaker 2: both extremely astute at sort of reading the tea leaves

1398
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:15,120
Speaker 2: and has got more experience and forgotten more about politics

1399
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:18,360
Speaker 2: than I've ever known. But he's also someone who has

1400
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:21,120
Speaker 2: that rare gift for mentorship. And I've just been really

1401
01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:24,200
Speaker 2: grateful to him for you know, beingb to share some

1402
01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:26,120
Speaker 2: of that with me. So and I know there's been

1403
01:07:26,200 --> 01:07:29,840
Speaker 2: many many journalists that he's helped mentor so I'm grateful.

1404
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:31,600
Speaker 2: And you know, anything Ron said nice about me is

1405
01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:33,520
Speaker 2: more because honest nice than it is because me.

1406
01:07:33,600 --> 01:07:35,960
Speaker 3: But I'm grateful that he introduced me to you.

1407
01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:37,880
Speaker 2: We've got to share some time, and I've seen really

1408
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:40,120
Speaker 2: good conversations about things that you know, I wish we

1409
01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:44,800
Speaker 2: had more space and time to have conversations as a community.

1410
01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:48,120
Speaker 1: And we'll do it again. And when Miami and Michigan

1411
01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:50,160
Speaker 1: meet in the playoff, maybe I'll see it in one

1412
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:51,000
Speaker 1: of those games.

1413
01:07:51,640 --> 01:07:54,960
Speaker 2: Hey, well that'll be a lot of fun. That'll be

1414
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:57,200
Speaker 2: a lot of fun. And I'm sorry for the outcome.

1415
01:07:57,280 --> 01:07:59,240
Speaker 2: But here's I will say this. Just on the college

1416
01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:02,880
Speaker 2: football front, Like I told you, I rooted for the Hurricanes.

1417
01:08:02,440 --> 01:08:05,080
Speaker 3: Back when I was a kid. Well we would the

1418
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:06,400
Speaker 3: Michigan was always my team.

1419
01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:09,800
Speaker 2: But like but but but but but Miami was number two,

1420
01:08:10,520 --> 01:08:13,600
Speaker 2: and you know Miami very much at that at that time,

1421
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:15,360
Speaker 2: and you remember this, they were like the bad.

1422
01:08:15,200 --> 01:08:17,200
Speaker 3: Boys of college football, were the rebels.

1423
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:21,240
Speaker 2: And like I keep watching all the fallout of you

1424
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:22,479
Speaker 2: know the controversy of machine.

1425
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:25,280
Speaker 3: I'm like, are we bad boys of college football? Now?

1426
01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:28,000
Speaker 2: Like it's not something I understand Michigan to be, but

1427
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:29,559
Speaker 2: like I know, well, you know.

1428
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:32,680
Speaker 1: It's look look at look at our perverted way. How

1429
01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:34,519
Speaker 1: often we root for the person wearing the black hat

1430
01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:36,840
Speaker 1: and the movies? Right, we love Darth Vaders. We know,

1431
01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:39,599
Speaker 1: we know Darth Vader's name. More people know Darth Vader's

1432
01:08:39,640 --> 01:08:41,400
Speaker 1: name than Luke Skywalker's name. Think about that.

1433
01:08:42,560 --> 01:08:44,519
Speaker 2: More people know Donald Trump's name than almost anybody else

1434
01:08:44,520 --> 01:08:45,240
Speaker 2: in American politics.

1435
01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:48,680
Speaker 1: So there you go. That's to drop the mic, all right,

1436
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:50,800
Speaker 1: to be safe on the trap.

1437
01:08:51,400 --> 01:08:52,280
Speaker 3: You to appreciate it.

1438
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:54,439
Speaker 2: Thank you, m