1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:24,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. This episode is the last in our current season. 2 00:00:25,436 --> 00:00:28,236 Speaker 1: It's also been a difficult one to make. Like all 3 00:00:28,236 --> 00:00:30,836 Speaker 1: our shows, it tries to strike a cautiously hopeful tone 4 00:00:31,236 --> 00:00:33,116 Speaker 1: because I do believe that each and every one of 5 00:00:33,196 --> 00:00:35,956 Speaker 1: us can make positive changes that will make our lives happier. 6 00:00:36,716 --> 00:00:38,756 Speaker 1: But this episode isn't just about how to be happy 7 00:00:38,796 --> 00:00:40,876 Speaker 1: in your own life. It's about the need to fight 8 00:00:40,876 --> 00:00:43,396 Speaker 1: injustice and the structure is around us that prevent whole 9 00:00:43,436 --> 00:00:46,876 Speaker 1: groups of people from living happy lives. And that means 10 00:00:46,876 --> 00:00:49,636 Speaker 1: that this episode touches on some tough issues, things like 11 00:00:49,756 --> 00:00:53,316 Speaker 1: racism and homophobia, as well as stories about hate crimes. 12 00:00:54,036 --> 00:00:56,196 Speaker 1: We started work on this episode before the killing of 13 00:00:56,236 --> 00:00:59,556 Speaker 1: George Floyd and all the important conversations about anti black 14 00:00:59,636 --> 00:01:02,236 Speaker 1: violence that have followed. But I hope you'll still find 15 00:01:02,276 --> 00:01:05,716 Speaker 1: important evidence based tips for how you can personally fight injustice, 16 00:01:06,236 --> 00:01:08,676 Speaker 1: including tips that I hope will be especially useful for 17 00:01:08,716 --> 00:01:12,076 Speaker 1: listeners who are not themselves members of marginalized groups and 18 00:01:12,116 --> 00:01:18,836 Speaker 1: who want to learn how they can help. It was Sunday, 19 00:01:18,916 --> 00:01:22,636 Speaker 1: June twelfth, twenty sixteen, right in the middle of Pride Month. 20 00:01:23,236 --> 00:01:25,476 Speaker 1: More than three hundred people had gathered at a Latin 21 00:01:25,516 --> 00:01:29,476 Speaker 1: event at Pulse, a gay dance club in Orlando, Florida, 22 00:01:29,676 --> 00:01:32,916 Speaker 1: and just before closing time, a gunman walked in and 23 00:01:32,996 --> 00:01:43,996 Speaker 1: opened fire. Forty nine people were murdered and another fifty 24 00:01:43,996 --> 00:01:51,156 Speaker 1: three were wounded. It was one of the deadliest mass 25 00:01:51,196 --> 00:01:54,036 Speaker 1: shootings on US soil and one of the most vicious 26 00:01:54,036 --> 00:01:58,156 Speaker 1: attacks on LGBTQ people anywhere in the world. It left 27 00:01:58,156 --> 00:02:03,796 Speaker 1: the global community reeling. After the Pulse attack, I went 28 00:02:03,796 --> 00:02:07,196 Speaker 1: into work and I didn't think anyone mentioned it at all, 29 00:02:07,476 --> 00:02:10,276 Speaker 1: and obviously I was not in a place my mental 30 00:02:10,356 --> 00:02:13,076 Speaker 1: health had taken a real turn. That day has had 31 00:02:13,116 --> 00:02:18,036 Speaker 1: so many queer people and no one said anything. James 32 00:02:18,036 --> 00:02:21,116 Speaker 1: Barr is a comedian and podcaster living in London. Like 33 00:02:21,196 --> 00:02:23,276 Speaker 1: lots of queer people, on the Monday morning after the 34 00:02:23,316 --> 00:02:26,356 Speaker 1: Pulse shooting, James didn't get help pourings of sympathy from 35 00:02:26,356 --> 00:02:29,676 Speaker 1: his coworkers. No one asked how he was doing, and 36 00:02:29,796 --> 00:02:32,596 Speaker 1: no one even spoke out about the tragedy. And it 37 00:02:32,636 --> 00:02:35,916 Speaker 1: wasn't until seven pm that night. I went to my 38 00:02:36,516 --> 00:02:40,436 Speaker 1: improv comedy rehearsal and as I walked in, my friend 39 00:02:40,436 --> 00:02:43,076 Speaker 1: Amanda said, are you okay? And gave me a hug 40 00:02:43,116 --> 00:02:45,236 Speaker 1: out of nowhere. Had it really struck me? Because I 41 00:02:45,276 --> 00:02:47,676 Speaker 1: was like, Wow, no one has asked me that all 42 00:02:47,756 --> 00:02:51,476 Speaker 1: day today. You're the only person that realized I might 43 00:02:51,516 --> 00:02:53,996 Speaker 1: be affected by that, or that something had even happened. 44 00:02:54,516 --> 00:02:58,956 Speaker 1: Everyone else was just completely oblivious. Those co workers probably 45 00:02:58,996 --> 00:03:02,036 Speaker 1: weren't intending to cause James harm. Most of them would 46 00:03:02,076 --> 00:03:05,316 Speaker 1: probably say they believed in gay rights, and if asked directly, 47 00:03:05,436 --> 00:03:08,556 Speaker 1: that they were appalled by the Pulse attack. But despite 48 00:03:08,556 --> 00:03:11,676 Speaker 1: all these good intentions, there's silence that day sent a 49 00:03:11,716 --> 00:03:16,276 Speaker 1: different message that's really triggering because you feel alone. It 50 00:03:16,356 --> 00:03:20,356 Speaker 1: takes you back to being at your mum's house when 51 00:03:20,396 --> 00:03:23,556 Speaker 1: you realize you're gay and you can't tell anyone, and 52 00:03:23,676 --> 00:03:26,836 Speaker 1: you're like thirteen, and you're sat there like, oh my god, 53 00:03:26,836 --> 00:03:28,796 Speaker 1: I'm on my own. No one else is gay. If 54 00:03:28,836 --> 00:03:31,636 Speaker 1: you're a straight sis gender person like me listening to James, 55 00:03:32,156 --> 00:03:34,476 Speaker 1: you may remember not being sure what to say when 56 00:03:34,476 --> 00:03:37,156 Speaker 1: you heard about the Pulse tragedy. You may have known 57 00:03:37,156 --> 00:03:39,476 Speaker 1: that you needed to say something, but you weren't sure 58 00:03:39,516 --> 00:03:44,236 Speaker 1: what or how. Unfortunately, none of these good intentions matter 59 00:03:44,316 --> 00:03:48,316 Speaker 1: to James at the time that day, any comment, however awkward, 60 00:03:48,476 --> 00:03:51,556 Speaker 1: would have been better than silence, because at least then 61 00:03:51,596 --> 00:03:53,916 Speaker 1: I know they see me. Now, I'm guessing that every 62 00:03:53,916 --> 00:03:56,836 Speaker 1: person listening to this podcast right now thinks of themselves 63 00:03:56,836 --> 00:04:00,756 Speaker 1: as a good person, someone who's committed to justice and inclusivity, 64 00:04:01,116 --> 00:04:03,316 Speaker 1: and that you probably agree that society would be a 65 00:04:03,396 --> 00:04:07,076 Speaker 1: happier place if all people were treated equally, no matter 66 00:04:07,116 --> 00:04:11,596 Speaker 1: what their sexual, gender, racial, or ethnic identity. But as 67 00:04:11,676 --> 00:04:14,676 Speaker 1: James's story reveals, lots of us feel to act on 68 00:04:14,716 --> 00:04:18,596 Speaker 1: these feelings, not because we're bad people, but often because 69 00:04:18,996 --> 00:04:22,876 Speaker 1: we're not sure how. If we really want our societies 70 00:04:22,876 --> 00:04:25,996 Speaker 1: to be happier, we need to actively counter the bigotry 71 00:04:26,036 --> 00:04:28,796 Speaker 1: and violence that affects so many identities on a near 72 00:04:28,876 --> 00:04:32,476 Speaker 1: daily basis. But changing the deep seated structures that cause 73 00:04:32,516 --> 00:04:34,796 Speaker 1: all this injustice is going to take an all hands 74 00:04:34,796 --> 00:04:39,316 Speaker 1: on deck approach, which raises an important psychological question. Why 75 00:04:39,356 --> 00:04:42,836 Speaker 1: do well intentioned people who believe in justice often do nothing. 76 00:04:43,516 --> 00:04:45,756 Speaker 1: Are there lies of the mind that prevent good people 77 00:04:45,836 --> 00:04:49,316 Speaker 1: from speaking up and taking action? And if so, how 78 00:04:49,356 --> 00:04:51,556 Speaker 1: can we deal with these dumb parts of our psychology 79 00:04:51,916 --> 00:04:54,476 Speaker 1: so that we can create a happier and more just world. 80 00:04:58,476 --> 00:05:00,396 Speaker 1: Our minds are constantly telling us what to do to 81 00:05:00,396 --> 00:05:02,996 Speaker 1: be happy. But what if our minds are wrong? What 82 00:05:03,116 --> 00:05:05,716 Speaker 1: if our minds are lying to us, leading us away 83 00:05:05,876 --> 00:05:08,836 Speaker 1: from or really make us happy. The good news is 84 00:05:08,876 --> 00:05:11,156 Speaker 1: that understanding the science of the mind can point us 85 00:05:11,156 --> 00:05:13,876 Speaker 1: all back in the right direction. You're listening to the 86 00:05:13,916 --> 00:05:23,476 Speaker 1: Happiness Lab the doctor Laurie Santos. A lot of people, 87 00:05:24,076 --> 00:05:27,956 Speaker 1: myself included, believe in adversity, believe in inclusion, believe in 88 00:05:28,116 --> 00:05:30,996 Speaker 1: equity like there is no doubt those are sincere beliefs. 89 00:05:31,156 --> 00:05:34,796 Speaker 1: Those beliefs, however, do not in any way change systems 90 00:05:34,876 --> 00:05:38,156 Speaker 1: or structures or biases. All they do is just sit 91 00:05:38,316 --> 00:05:42,276 Speaker 1: as beliefs. This is Dolly chug an NYU professor, an 92 00:05:42,316 --> 00:05:44,956 Speaker 1: author of The Person You Mean to Be, How good 93 00:05:44,996 --> 00:05:48,436 Speaker 1: people fight by us to go from believing something to 94 00:05:48,636 --> 00:05:51,836 Speaker 1: building something. To go from the belief to the action, 95 00:05:52,396 --> 00:05:54,796 Speaker 1: we have to build some skills, We need some tools. 96 00:05:55,636 --> 00:05:57,756 Speaker 1: Dolly argues that each of us need to go from 97 00:05:57,756 --> 00:06:00,876 Speaker 1: being a believer to becoming what she calls a builder, 98 00:06:01,276 --> 00:06:04,716 Speaker 1: someone who takes an active role. Dolly's builder idea is 99 00:06:04,716 --> 00:06:08,356 Speaker 1: similar to what historian and American University professor Abraham Kentdy 100 00:06:08,556 --> 00:06:12,076 Speaker 1: has called becoming an anti racist. The idea is that 101 00:06:12,076 --> 00:06:14,556 Speaker 1: it's not enough to simply not believe in bigoted stuff 102 00:06:14,636 --> 00:06:17,916 Speaker 1: or not be racist ourselves. We need to honestly confront 103 00:06:17,956 --> 00:06:20,956 Speaker 1: all the assumptions we've internalized simply by growing up in 104 00:06:20,996 --> 00:06:24,356 Speaker 1: an unjust society. The problem, though, is that our lying 105 00:06:24,396 --> 00:06:27,076 Speaker 1: minds make it super hard to see all the structural 106 00:06:27,116 --> 00:06:30,956 Speaker 1: inequalities around us, especially if we're lucky enough not to 107 00:06:30,996 --> 00:06:34,436 Speaker 1: experience that oppression directly. When little kids play with those 108 00:06:34,516 --> 00:06:37,636 Speaker 1: spy ink pens spy pens where when they write, you 109 00:06:37,676 --> 00:06:40,476 Speaker 1: don't see anything, and then there's a little blue ultraviolet 110 00:06:40,516 --> 00:06:43,076 Speaker 1: type light and then you can see what's written. You've 111 00:06:43,116 --> 00:06:45,516 Speaker 1: got to do that much work to see the systemic 112 00:06:45,596 --> 00:06:48,876 Speaker 1: stuff unless you're experiencing it directly. I mean sometimes even 113 00:06:48,876 --> 00:06:50,716 Speaker 1: when you're experiencing it directly, you don't see it. But 114 00:06:50,796 --> 00:06:52,836 Speaker 1: you have got to do the work of finding the 115 00:06:52,916 --> 00:06:57,196 Speaker 1: ultraviolet light, shining it, and actively looking for it. Dolly 116 00:06:57,236 --> 00:06:59,836 Speaker 1: has had to shine that same light on her own biases. 117 00:07:00,276 --> 00:07:03,236 Speaker 1: As a straight, sis gender woman of Indian descent. She 118 00:07:03,356 --> 00:07:06,516 Speaker 1: knows what it's like to experience discrimination based on her ethnicity, 119 00:07:06,996 --> 00:07:10,836 Speaker 1: but she also recognizes that her sexuality, race able bodied status, 120 00:07:10,876 --> 00:07:13,796 Speaker 1: and education level have given her a whole host of 121 00:07:13,836 --> 00:07:17,436 Speaker 1: amazing privileges. Writing The Person You Mean to Be was 122 00:07:17,476 --> 00:07:19,516 Speaker 1: her way of coming to terms with all her own 123 00:07:19,516 --> 00:07:22,756 Speaker 1: injustice blind spots. One of the reasons I love Dolly's 124 00:07:22,796 --> 00:07:25,316 Speaker 1: books so much is because she's super honest about the 125 00:07:25,316 --> 00:07:28,116 Speaker 1: fact that she's not perfect and that she too needs 126 00:07:28,116 --> 00:07:30,796 Speaker 1: to put in work to become a builder. I'm risk averse, 127 00:07:30,916 --> 00:07:32,276 Speaker 1: and I always want to say the right thing, and 128 00:07:32,316 --> 00:07:33,956 Speaker 1: I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I don't love 129 00:07:34,036 --> 00:07:38,276 Speaker 1: conflicts like all these things will pull me into doing less, 130 00:07:38,356 --> 00:07:42,116 Speaker 1: not more. Ironically enough, this urge to be seen as 131 00:07:42,156 --> 00:07:45,356 Speaker 1: not being prejudiced can make us do stuff that's pretty 132 00:07:45,396 --> 00:07:48,676 Speaker 1: much the opposite. We are less likely to reach out 133 00:07:48,756 --> 00:07:51,516 Speaker 1: because we think we might say this wrong thing. We 134 00:07:51,676 --> 00:07:55,316 Speaker 1: are less likely to take an action, or to call 135 00:07:55,436 --> 00:07:59,516 Speaker 1: a legislator, or to introduce ourselves to a neighbor, or 136 00:07:59,556 --> 00:08:01,356 Speaker 1: to try to say someone's name who we don't know 137 00:08:01,356 --> 00:08:04,436 Speaker 1: how to pronounce. There's even work suggesting that our worries 138 00:08:04,476 --> 00:08:07,756 Speaker 1: about seeming prejudice take up a lot of mental bandwidth. 139 00:08:08,316 --> 00:08:12,196 Speaker 1: My colleague ye Jennifer Richison and Princeton psychologist Nicole Shelton 140 00:08:12,556 --> 00:08:15,636 Speaker 1: had white subjects chat about a controversial issue with either 141 00:08:15,676 --> 00:08:19,596 Speaker 1: a white or black stranger. Afterwards, participants did a tough 142 00:08:19,636 --> 00:08:22,676 Speaker 1: attentional task known as the Stroop test, in which you 143 00:08:22,756 --> 00:08:25,036 Speaker 1: read the names of colors as quickly as you can 144 00:08:25,436 --> 00:08:28,236 Speaker 1: despite the words being printed in the wrong colored font. 145 00:08:28,956 --> 00:08:32,236 Speaker 1: It's actually pretty hard to read blue when it's printed 146 00:08:32,236 --> 00:08:35,476 Speaker 1: in yellow. But Richison and Shelton found that white subjects 147 00:08:35,516 --> 00:08:38,996 Speaker 1: did significantly worse on that Stroop test after talking to 148 00:08:39,036 --> 00:08:42,876 Speaker 1: a black person. The researchers concluded that subjects left these 149 00:08:42,916 --> 00:08:47,476 Speaker 1: interracial interactions feeling more cognitively and emotionally drained than if 150 00:08:47,516 --> 00:08:50,196 Speaker 1: they chatted with someone of the same race, and later 151 00:08:50,236 --> 00:08:52,956 Speaker 1: work from Richson's lab shows that white subjects have an 152 00:08:52,996 --> 00:08:56,236 Speaker 1: even more pronounced performance dip when they're reminded to try 153 00:08:56,276 --> 00:08:59,836 Speaker 1: and not seem racist during the interaction. Our minds go 154 00:08:59,876 --> 00:09:02,636 Speaker 1: through a whole host of mental gymnastics when our self 155 00:09:02,636 --> 00:09:05,756 Speaker 1: image is a decent person is threatened. It's what psychologists 156 00:09:05,796 --> 00:09:09,796 Speaker 1: call motivated reasoning, and the process of motivated reasoning can 157 00:09:09,836 --> 00:09:13,316 Speaker 1: sometimes get so extreme that we even lie to ourselves 158 00:09:13,556 --> 00:09:17,996 Speaker 1: and reinvent our past. Let's do a little quiz. Shall 159 00:09:18,036 --> 00:09:20,316 Speaker 1: we I want you to rate how much you agree 160 00:09:20,316 --> 00:09:23,756 Speaker 1: with the following statement from one I strongly disagree to 161 00:09:23,876 --> 00:09:27,396 Speaker 1: seven I strongly agree. Ready, how much do you agree 162 00:09:27,436 --> 00:09:30,476 Speaker 1: with this statement my life has been full of hardships? 163 00:09:31,116 --> 00:09:34,996 Speaker 1: Got your answer? Great? Oh wait, actually I forgot. I 164 00:09:35,076 --> 00:09:38,156 Speaker 1: wanted to remind you of something before you answer the question. 165 00:09:38,516 --> 00:09:42,076 Speaker 1: Please remember that most social scientists agree that even today, 166 00:09:42,196 --> 00:09:45,876 Speaker 1: white Americans enjoy many privileges that Black Americans do not. 167 00:09:46,556 --> 00:09:51,116 Speaker 1: White Americans are advantaged in the domains of academics, housing, healthcare, jobs, 168 00:09:51,116 --> 00:09:54,556 Speaker 1: and more compared to Black Americans. Sor right back to 169 00:09:54,556 --> 00:09:59,036 Speaker 1: the question from one I strongly disagree to seven strongly agree? 170 00:09:59,356 --> 00:10:02,036 Speaker 1: How much do you agree with this statement my life 171 00:10:02,116 --> 00:10:06,996 Speaker 1: has been full of hardships? Psychologist Taylor Phillips and Brian 172 00:10:07,076 --> 00:10:10,276 Speaker 1: Lowry pose this same question to a group of white participants, 173 00:10:10,716 --> 00:10:13,596 Speaker 1: with half the subject's first hearing that statement about race 174 00:10:13,676 --> 00:10:16,476 Speaker 1: that I just read to you. You probably think that 175 00:10:16,516 --> 00:10:19,356 Speaker 1: once white subjects were reminded of the greater obstacles that 176 00:10:19,436 --> 00:10:21,956 Speaker 1: people of color face, that they'd be less likely to 177 00:10:21,996 --> 00:10:24,196 Speaker 1: claim that their own life had been filled with hardships. 178 00:10:24,956 --> 00:10:28,476 Speaker 1: But in fact, Phillips and Lowry found the exact opposite pattern. 179 00:10:28,996 --> 00:10:31,956 Speaker 1: On average, white people said their life was significantly harder 180 00:10:32,156 --> 00:10:35,356 Speaker 1: when they were reminded of their racial privilege. Phillips and 181 00:10:35,356 --> 00:10:37,396 Speaker 1: Lowry came up with a rather catchy name for the 182 00:10:37,516 --> 00:10:41,596 Speaker 1: striking example of motivated reasoning, borrowing from the musical Annie. 183 00:10:41,716 --> 00:10:44,356 Speaker 1: They called it the hard knock life effect. It's the 184 00:10:44,396 --> 00:10:48,236 Speaker 1: hard knock life for us. It's the hard knock life 185 00:10:48,636 --> 00:10:58,396 Speaker 1: for us. Satrio plea success when we think about all 186 00:10:58,436 --> 00:11:01,436 Speaker 1: the unseen gifts we get just from existing as a 187 00:11:01,476 --> 00:11:04,676 Speaker 1: non marginalized person. When we realized that all the bad 188 00:11:04,716 --> 00:11:07,196 Speaker 1: stuff in our life would probably be worse if we 189 00:11:07,196 --> 00:11:10,396 Speaker 1: weren't white, or straight, or sistent, or able bodied, or 190 00:11:10,476 --> 00:11:13,596 Speaker 1: middle class. That can make us feel kind of bad, 191 00:11:14,156 --> 00:11:16,916 Speaker 1: like we got some benefit that wasn't really fair, even 192 00:11:16,916 --> 00:11:20,916 Speaker 1: if we didn't intend to. Rather than experience all this discomfort, 193 00:11:21,356 --> 00:11:24,036 Speaker 1: our minds try to cook the facts. We search our 194 00:11:24,076 --> 00:11:26,636 Speaker 1: memory banks for the kinds of hardships that might make 195 00:11:26,676 --> 00:11:30,156 Speaker 1: our own lives look less easy and therefore less privilege 196 00:11:30,276 --> 00:11:35,396 Speaker 1: relative to a marginalized person. Despite writing an entire book 197 00:11:35,396 --> 00:11:38,556 Speaker 1: on fighting injustice, Dolly is the first to admit that 198 00:11:38,636 --> 00:11:42,836 Speaker 1: it's easy to fall under this way. Of motivated reasoning. Rationally, 199 00:11:43,076 --> 00:11:45,316 Speaker 1: Dolly knows that she's had a whole host of life 200 00:11:45,316 --> 00:11:49,876 Speaker 1: experiences that other people weren't lucky enough to have. When 201 00:11:49,916 --> 00:11:52,956 Speaker 1: I say I have privilege, it's not that I haven't 202 00:11:52,996 --> 00:11:56,436 Speaker 1: worked super hard for things. It's not that I haven't 203 00:11:56,436 --> 00:11:59,796 Speaker 1: had some really serious challenges in my life. And yet 204 00:11:59,836 --> 00:12:02,516 Speaker 1: if someone says to me, like, you know, you just 205 00:12:02,556 --> 00:12:05,436 Speaker 1: went to fancy schools, we'll hold on. You know, I 206 00:12:05,476 --> 00:12:08,716 Speaker 1: can feel my blood boiling in that moment. That is 207 00:12:08,756 --> 00:12:12,116 Speaker 1: an example of what it looks like to deny privilege. 208 00:12:12,596 --> 00:12:14,476 Speaker 1: But Dolly has found that there is a way to 209 00:12:14,516 --> 00:12:17,756 Speaker 1: stop all the mental gymnastics that lead decent people down 210 00:12:17,836 --> 00:12:21,356 Speaker 1: this not so good path. The solution involves dropping the 211 00:12:21,396 --> 00:12:24,596 Speaker 1: fiction that were good people in the first place. I've 212 00:12:24,636 --> 00:12:26,996 Speaker 1: been on this campaign to get people to let go 213 00:12:27,076 --> 00:12:29,076 Speaker 1: of being a good person and strive and said to 214 00:12:29,116 --> 00:12:32,196 Speaker 1: be a goodish person. We'll learn what it means to 215 00:12:32,236 --> 00:12:46,916 Speaker 1: be good ish when the Happiness Lab returns in a moment. HI, welcome, 216 00:12:47,356 --> 00:12:51,996 Speaker 1: Welcome along, listeners. What's funny? I just say, that's a 217 00:12:51,996 --> 00:12:54,396 Speaker 1: really weird thing to say. It's kind of creepy. A 218 00:12:55,676 --> 00:12:58,916 Speaker 1: welcome listeners. James Barr and Dan Hudson are the duo 219 00:12:58,996 --> 00:13:02,516 Speaker 1: behind the award winning LGBTQ podcast A Gay in a 220 00:13:02,596 --> 00:13:04,836 Speaker 1: Non Gay? Should we kind of explain what this is? Dan? 221 00:13:05,156 --> 00:13:07,636 Speaker 1: Dad's girlfriend is is one of my best friends. But 222 00:13:07,676 --> 00:13:10,396 Speaker 1: it's also Dan's girlfriends, So it's awkward because we're not 223 00:13:10,396 --> 00:13:14,716 Speaker 1: really friends? Are we are? Not? This is news to me. 224 00:13:14,836 --> 00:13:16,916 Speaker 1: I thought, no, no, not, what do you mean? Ready? 225 00:13:17,396 --> 00:13:20,796 Speaker 1: Before it's launched in twenty fifteen, most of James's friends 226 00:13:20,796 --> 00:13:23,836 Speaker 1: were women or gay men. Dan, who was the show's 227 00:13:23,876 --> 00:13:26,916 Speaker 1: title suggests, is a non gay, wasn't the sort of 228 00:13:26,956 --> 00:13:29,636 Speaker 1: person that James usually hung out with. I wasn't really 229 00:13:29,676 --> 00:13:31,516 Speaker 1: interested in guys unless I was going to have their 230 00:13:31,596 --> 00:13:35,356 Speaker 1: number in my phone, and obviously Dan was not likely 231 00:13:35,396 --> 00:13:39,036 Speaker 1: to be in my phone. Dan loves metal music and 232 00:13:39,276 --> 00:13:42,476 Speaker 1: he can be quite angry. Sometimes he's got a beard. 233 00:13:42,836 --> 00:13:44,876 Speaker 1: Not that that's, you know, not gay, but I think 234 00:13:44,916 --> 00:13:48,476 Speaker 1: I'm quite firm and Dan's very mask Because of their 235 00:13:48,476 --> 00:13:52,436 Speaker 1: different identities and experiences, working together on the podcast meant 236 00:13:52,436 --> 00:13:55,476 Speaker 1: bridging a whole host of tricky issues. At the beginning, 237 00:13:55,516 --> 00:13:57,956 Speaker 1: I really didn't want to be there. Why do I 238 00:13:57,996 --> 00:14:00,236 Speaker 1: want to talk to a straight guy? Why do I 239 00:14:00,276 --> 00:14:04,956 Speaker 1: have to sit here and educate someone and explain what 240 00:14:05,036 --> 00:14:07,556 Speaker 1: it's like just ordering a drink at the bar and 241 00:14:07,636 --> 00:14:11,756 Speaker 1: being terrified that the barman will know I'm gay? Why 242 00:14:11,756 --> 00:14:13,796 Speaker 1: do I have to tell him like how scary it 243 00:14:13,836 --> 00:14:15,876 Speaker 1: is to hold hands with a boyfriend walking down the street, 244 00:14:16,236 --> 00:14:20,356 Speaker 1: And I just I guess I felt like happy in 245 00:14:20,436 --> 00:14:24,596 Speaker 1: my bubble of gay friends. And when I sat down 246 00:14:24,596 --> 00:14:28,276 Speaker 1: with Dan and had to explain all the things that 247 00:14:28,716 --> 00:14:33,276 Speaker 1: I've never really said out loud before, it was exhausting. 248 00:14:33,876 --> 00:14:35,916 Speaker 1: Part of the exhaustion comes from the fact that their 249 00:14:35,916 --> 00:14:39,316 Speaker 1: podcast doesn't shy away from controversial topics. This is so 250 00:14:39,516 --> 00:14:43,556 Speaker 1: personal awful. This podcast is not affiliated with any other 251 00:14:43,596 --> 00:14:45,476 Speaker 1: thing that Dan and I do in are other lives. 252 00:14:45,716 --> 00:14:48,396 Speaker 1: Most of their episodes are not safe for work because 253 00:14:48,476 --> 00:14:51,396 Speaker 1: no aspect of James's gay sex life is off limits. 254 00:14:52,076 --> 00:14:54,836 Speaker 1: Dan's often in the position of asking the cluelest question 255 00:14:55,036 --> 00:14:58,276 Speaker 1: that many straight people have. Answering what a douche was 256 00:14:58,276 --> 00:15:01,276 Speaker 1: was pretty awkward. So Dan and I have spent a 257 00:15:01,316 --> 00:15:05,956 Speaker 1: long time talking about the ins and outs of anal 258 00:15:05,996 --> 00:15:10,436 Speaker 1: cleaning and how that works, and also Dan just being 259 00:15:10,596 --> 00:15:15,276 Speaker 1: so confused by the entire thing, like you do what podcasting. 260 00:15:15,316 --> 00:15:18,636 Speaker 1: Conversations like these have turned James and Dan into LGBTQ 261 00:15:18,836 --> 00:15:22,716 Speaker 1: champions and unlikely friends. They're shared laughter has given them 262 00:15:22,716 --> 00:15:25,636 Speaker 1: the trust needed to talk about even more sensitive topics, 263 00:15:26,316 --> 00:15:29,756 Speaker 1: things like HIV, the unique mental health challenges faced by 264 00:15:29,796 --> 00:15:33,676 Speaker 1: the LGBTQ community, and the injustice and violence against queer 265 00:15:33,716 --> 00:15:37,076 Speaker 1: people that straights sis gender people often don't see. If 266 00:15:37,116 --> 00:15:39,796 Speaker 1: I'm honest, I feel glad that we have had all 267 00:15:39,796 --> 00:15:44,836 Speaker 1: those conversations because it will hopefully educate other people listening 268 00:15:45,196 --> 00:15:47,356 Speaker 1: so that they don't have to have the same conversations. 269 00:15:48,276 --> 00:15:51,156 Speaker 1: Dan admits that he hadn't thought much about LGBTQ issues 270 00:15:51,236 --> 00:15:54,716 Speaker 1: before starting the podcast. His learning curve has been steep. 271 00:15:54,916 --> 00:15:57,636 Speaker 1: We called it a gay and ann gay because we 272 00:15:57,636 --> 00:16:00,116 Speaker 1: had to call it something. You hated the title, didn't you, 273 00:16:00,156 --> 00:16:01,636 Speaker 1: because you didn't want to be You didn't want to 274 00:16:01,676 --> 00:16:05,196 Speaker 1: be marginalized as a non gay person, which was hysterical 275 00:16:05,236 --> 00:16:07,156 Speaker 1: to me because why should I have to be a 276 00:16:07,196 --> 00:16:09,516 Speaker 1: gay person? And now I think I'm out of being 277 00:16:09,516 --> 00:16:11,756 Speaker 1: a game more than they ever have. And Dan, you're 278 00:16:11,836 --> 00:16:14,036 Speaker 1: kind of I mean, proud would be the wrong word, 279 00:16:14,036 --> 00:16:17,036 Speaker 1: because we're going down a straight pride territory. But you 280 00:16:17,076 --> 00:16:20,596 Speaker 1: are happy to call yourself a non gay. Yeah. Well, 281 00:16:20,636 --> 00:16:22,996 Speaker 1: I mean it's what it is, isn't it? That is 282 00:16:22,996 --> 00:16:26,156 Speaker 1: what I am. Since co hosting this podcast, Dance had 283 00:16:26,156 --> 00:16:28,796 Speaker 1: to navigate a lot of the moral identity threat that 284 00:16:28,916 --> 00:16:32,436 Speaker 1: comes from recognizing his non gay privilege. But unlike other 285 00:16:32,476 --> 00:16:35,356 Speaker 1: straight people, Dance had to deal with all that discomfort 286 00:16:35,516 --> 00:16:39,796 Speaker 1: with thousands of people listening. Dan's been amazing, He's taken 287 00:16:39,836 --> 00:16:42,596 Speaker 1: a lot of that on board. And maybe, and I 288 00:16:42,596 --> 00:16:44,636 Speaker 1: think you've helped me just realized this. Now. Maybe the 289 00:16:44,636 --> 00:16:46,596 Speaker 1: way Dan is a good ally is because he's awkward. 290 00:16:46,836 --> 00:16:49,596 Speaker 1: He's awkward about asking these questions, He's awkward about learning 291 00:16:49,756 --> 00:16:53,516 Speaker 1: and speaking up for gay people. He feels awkward, And maybe, 292 00:16:53,596 --> 00:16:56,196 Speaker 1: as an ally for any marginalized community, you're meant to 293 00:16:56,236 --> 00:16:58,636 Speaker 1: just feel a bit awkward to kind of understand it 294 00:16:58,836 --> 00:17:00,876 Speaker 1: and make sure you're saying and doing the right things. 295 00:17:01,596 --> 00:17:04,916 Speaker 1: James is onto something important here, because the science suggests 296 00:17:04,916 --> 00:17:08,076 Speaker 1: that the path to becoming a better ally often involved 297 00:17:08,076 --> 00:17:12,356 Speaker 1: embracing just awkwardness. It comes from accepting that you're probably 298 00:17:12,356 --> 00:17:15,996 Speaker 1: going to screw up. As psychologist Dolly Chug explains, it's 299 00:17:16,036 --> 00:17:18,356 Speaker 1: not a matter of if a non virtualized person is 300 00:17:18,356 --> 00:17:21,156 Speaker 1: going to do or say something dumb. But when we 301 00:17:21,196 --> 00:17:24,636 Speaker 1: are going to screw up, period, we are, and when 302 00:17:24,676 --> 00:17:27,396 Speaker 1: we mess up, we need to immediately own the harm 303 00:17:27,436 --> 00:17:31,076 Speaker 1: we've caused. First of all, I am sorry. It's not 304 00:17:31,236 --> 00:17:33,996 Speaker 1: I am sorry if you were offended. Sorry if I 305 00:17:34,076 --> 00:17:36,676 Speaker 1: hurt your feelings, I'm sorry if you took it that way. 306 00:17:36,836 --> 00:17:39,556 Speaker 1: Those are all not what we want to say. It 307 00:17:39,716 --> 00:17:41,956 Speaker 1: is I am sorry, I have done harm, I have 308 00:17:42,076 --> 00:17:44,676 Speaker 1: messed up. I am going to do better. I am 309 00:17:44,756 --> 00:17:47,676 Speaker 1: going to learn that commitment to learn from our mistakes 310 00:17:47,676 --> 00:17:50,076 Speaker 1: and do better in the future is the first step 311 00:17:50,076 --> 00:17:53,076 Speaker 1: to accepting that we're not a good person yet. That's 312 00:17:53,076 --> 00:17:56,036 Speaker 1: why Dolly wants us to strive instead to be good 313 00:17:56,156 --> 00:17:59,836 Speaker 1: ish people. And by good ish, I'm not saying it's 314 00:17:59,876 --> 00:18:03,676 Speaker 1: like not quite good enough for a lower standard than good. 315 00:18:03,716 --> 00:18:06,396 Speaker 1: What I'm actually arguing is quite opposite. It's it's a 316 00:18:06,476 --> 00:18:09,676 Speaker 1: higher standard because as someone who never assumes their good 317 00:18:09,796 --> 00:18:12,356 Speaker 1: it's that I'm always looking for ways in which I 318 00:18:12,356 --> 00:18:15,156 Speaker 1: could learn, or where my blind spots are, or where 319 00:18:15,156 --> 00:18:17,156 Speaker 1: I could notice something I might have missed, or a 320 00:18:17,196 --> 00:18:21,076 Speaker 1: different perspective. It's obvious that making silly mistakes it's necessary 321 00:18:21,156 --> 00:18:24,596 Speaker 1: for learning almost anything in life, but we're often super 322 00:18:24,636 --> 00:18:28,316 Speaker 1: resistant to believing that we can improve, something that renowned 323 00:18:28,356 --> 00:18:32,556 Speaker 1: Stanford psychologist Carol Dweck has called having a fixed mindset. 324 00:18:33,356 --> 00:18:36,756 Speaker 1: Dolly thinks this rigid fixed mindset thinking is even more 325 00:18:36,796 --> 00:18:40,076 Speaker 1: pronounced in cases that involve are moral identities. I'm a 326 00:18:40,116 --> 00:18:43,116 Speaker 1: good person or I'm not. There's no working progress in there. 327 00:18:43,156 --> 00:18:45,436 Speaker 1: And where we know from the mindset research is that 328 00:18:45,796 --> 00:18:48,236 Speaker 1: when you're in a fixed mindset and you make a mistake, 329 00:18:48,316 --> 00:18:52,116 Speaker 1: your brain activation actually goes down. You actually withdraw attention 330 00:18:52,236 --> 00:18:54,756 Speaker 1: from the mistake. Why because there's no point looking a mistake. 331 00:18:54,796 --> 00:18:58,076 Speaker 1: You're fixed. You're not going to grow to become better allies. 332 00:18:58,356 --> 00:19:01,116 Speaker 1: We all need to switch to a different mindset. The 333 00:19:01,236 --> 00:19:04,756 Speaker 1: growth mindset is the one where, of course we still 334 00:19:04,796 --> 00:19:07,356 Speaker 1: care deeply about doing the right thing and being a 335 00:19:07,356 --> 00:19:09,956 Speaker 1: good person, but we acknowledge that it's going to take 336 00:19:09,996 --> 00:19:12,476 Speaker 1: lots of work and mistakes to get there. People with 337 00:19:12,516 --> 00:19:15,156 Speaker 1: a growth mindset are willing to embrace harder and harder 338 00:19:15,236 --> 00:19:19,436 Speaker 1: learning challenges. They even devote more neural resources to paying 339 00:19:19,436 --> 00:19:22,356 Speaker 1: attention to their mistakes. Why because a mistake means I 340 00:19:22,396 --> 00:19:24,476 Speaker 1: have an opportunity to get better. I'm mortified, but I 341 00:19:24,476 --> 00:19:27,996 Speaker 1: can get better. The idea is to own it, to 342 00:19:28,156 --> 00:19:30,956 Speaker 1: say it, and to act on it. Carol Dwek, along 343 00:19:30,996 --> 00:19:33,756 Speaker 1: with her Stanford colleague Jamil Zaki, have shown that our 344 00:19:33,796 --> 00:19:36,676 Speaker 1: mindsets can have a significant impact on how we approach 345 00:19:36,716 --> 00:19:40,156 Speaker 1: hard identity challenges. They found that white participants with a 346 00:19:40,196 --> 00:19:43,476 Speaker 1: growth mindset spent more time actually listening to a black 347 00:19:43,476 --> 00:19:47,436 Speaker 1: person describe personal challenges than white subjects with a fixed mindset. 348 00:19:47,996 --> 00:19:50,356 Speaker 1: The good news is that it's pretty easy to develop 349 00:19:50,356 --> 00:19:53,316 Speaker 1: a growth mindset. It can be as easy as reminding 350 00:19:53,316 --> 00:19:55,796 Speaker 1: yourself that you can change with a simple three letter 351 00:19:55,876 --> 00:19:59,596 Speaker 1: word yet, as in, I'm not a good person yet, 352 00:19:59,916 --> 00:20:02,276 Speaker 1: but I can be if I put in some work. 353 00:20:03,116 --> 00:20:06,156 Speaker 1: The simple act of reminding ourselves we can change can 354 00:20:06,156 --> 00:20:08,356 Speaker 1: have a huge effect on our willingness to engage with 355 00:20:08,436 --> 00:20:11,756 Speaker 1: tough racial situations, own our own mistakes when they inevitably 356 00:20:11,756 --> 00:20:14,196 Speaker 1: come up, and put in the work to make amends 357 00:20:14,276 --> 00:20:16,996 Speaker 1: and do better in the future. A growth mindset can 358 00:20:17,036 --> 00:20:20,236 Speaker 1: also help us break through the discomfort that often comes 359 00:20:20,276 --> 00:20:22,716 Speaker 1: with stepping in as an ally to fight the injustice 360 00:20:22,716 --> 00:20:26,636 Speaker 1: around us. Something non gay podcaster Dan Hudson had to 361 00:20:26,716 --> 00:20:31,196 Speaker 1: learn firsthand. So I wrote an article for the Metro newspaper, 362 00:20:31,196 --> 00:20:34,476 Speaker 1: which is the British equivalent of like USA today. To 363 00:20:34,556 --> 00:20:36,676 Speaker 1: be fair, it was James's idea. He said, you should 364 00:20:36,676 --> 00:20:39,196 Speaker 1: write an article about what it's like being an allied 365 00:20:39,236 --> 00:20:41,956 Speaker 1: to the LGBT community, and I was like, well, well, 366 00:20:41,996 --> 00:20:44,396 Speaker 1: if I'm not one, like, who's deciding that I am one? 367 00:20:44,676 --> 00:20:47,396 Speaker 1: Prepping the article was a tremendous amount of work for Dan, 368 00:20:47,876 --> 00:20:50,356 Speaker 1: and he spent the entire time fighting to keep that 369 00:20:50,436 --> 00:20:53,636 Speaker 1: old fixed mindset at bay God, I really want to 370 00:20:53,676 --> 00:20:57,236 Speaker 1: get this right and make the point correctly, and the 371 00:20:57,276 --> 00:21:00,236 Speaker 1: easiest things I can't do this. This is just like 372 00:21:00,316 --> 00:21:03,436 Speaker 1: too difficult. In the end, Dan was able to see 373 00:21:03,436 --> 00:21:05,836 Speaker 1: the difficulty as a way to learn rather than a 374 00:21:05,876 --> 00:21:09,076 Speaker 1: reason to run away. The result was a powerful article 375 00:21:09,516 --> 00:21:12,836 Speaker 1: entitled I'm a white middle class SIS straight mail and 376 00:21:12,996 --> 00:21:15,796 Speaker 1: this is how I learned to be an LGBTQ plus ally. 377 00:21:16,476 --> 00:21:18,756 Speaker 1: It was one of the first times Dan had publicly 378 00:21:18,756 --> 00:21:23,556 Speaker 1: applied the word ally to himself. It's it's a tricky 379 00:21:23,716 --> 00:21:28,956 Speaker 1: words because James refers to me as an ally and 380 00:21:28,996 --> 00:21:31,556 Speaker 1: that's great. It's one of those words that I think, 381 00:21:31,596 --> 00:21:34,396 Speaker 1: if you're going to declare yourself as one. You've really 382 00:21:34,436 --> 00:21:38,716 Speaker 1: got to be like manning the barricades. You've really got 383 00:21:38,716 --> 00:21:41,236 Speaker 1: to be fighting for that cause all day and every day. 384 00:21:41,236 --> 00:21:44,956 Speaker 1: And I'm not sure that I necessarily am, or maybe 385 00:21:44,996 --> 00:21:47,396 Speaker 1: should be, I think, and I might be wrong. Dan 386 00:21:47,516 --> 00:21:51,516 Speaker 1: call me out. That's because you're a straight, CIS white 387 00:21:51,516 --> 00:21:53,956 Speaker 1: guy with all the privilege, so to you having to 388 00:21:53,956 --> 00:21:57,916 Speaker 1: stand up for anything feels maybe insincere because it's not 389 00:21:58,076 --> 00:22:02,436 Speaker 1: his cause. But here's where that article started. I was 390 00:22:02,476 --> 00:22:04,956 Speaker 1: fed up of constantly having to stand up for gay 391 00:22:04,956 --> 00:22:06,836 Speaker 1: people all the time, and I just felt like maybe 392 00:22:06,876 --> 00:22:09,276 Speaker 1: it was time a straight person did it, because there's 393 00:22:09,316 --> 00:22:14,396 Speaker 1: only so much gay noise we can make, and sometimes 394 00:22:14,396 --> 00:22:17,076 Speaker 1: straight people are just going to ignore that. Yet again, 395 00:22:17,316 --> 00:22:20,236 Speaker 1: James is right here. Not only is it morally wrong 396 00:22:20,356 --> 00:22:23,236 Speaker 1: to always leave marginalized groups with the burden of speaking out, 397 00:22:23,436 --> 00:22:26,156 Speaker 1: but the science shows it's often more effective for a 398 00:22:26,196 --> 00:22:29,956 Speaker 1: non marginalized person to point out bigotry. We absolutely, when 399 00:22:29,956 --> 00:22:33,196 Speaker 1: we're not from the targeted group, have more influence and 400 00:22:33,316 --> 00:22:36,036 Speaker 1: standing than we assume. We don't feel that way in 401 00:22:36,036 --> 00:22:39,436 Speaker 1: the moment, but the data is really convincing. One study 402 00:22:39,436 --> 00:22:41,716 Speaker 1: found that white people who called someone out for using 403 00:22:41,716 --> 00:22:45,076 Speaker 1: a racist stereotype are judged less negatively than a black 404 00:22:45,116 --> 00:22:48,116 Speaker 1: person who does exactly the same thing using exactly the 405 00:22:48,156 --> 00:22:50,916 Speaker 1: same words in tone. The same study found that the 406 00:22:50,916 --> 00:22:54,356 Speaker 1: offender feels more guilty and it's more likely to apologize 407 00:22:54,396 --> 00:22:58,116 Speaker 1: if a white person steps in. Another study showed white 408 00:22:58,116 --> 00:23:01,036 Speaker 1: participants videos in which a white or black person called 409 00:23:01,076 --> 00:23:04,956 Speaker 1: someone out for a racist comment. Participants were more persuaded 410 00:23:04,956 --> 00:23:08,036 Speaker 1: by the argument and thought the interaction was less rude 411 00:23:08,036 --> 00:23:10,436 Speaker 1: when a white person was the one doing a calling out. 412 00:23:11,716 --> 00:23:16,196 Speaker 1: Dolly's book christened this phenomenon ordinary privilege. We're not speaking 413 00:23:16,196 --> 00:23:18,516 Speaker 1: instead of them, We're not centering ourselves over them. This 414 00:23:18,596 --> 00:23:20,876 Speaker 1: is not about our feelings. You know, when it might 415 00:23:20,956 --> 00:23:22,836 Speaker 1: comes to us, because it might come to us a 416 00:23:22,836 --> 00:23:25,996 Speaker 1: little more easily. We amplify what they were saying, We 417 00:23:26,116 --> 00:23:29,596 Speaker 1: pass it back, We create the space for them to 418 00:23:29,676 --> 00:23:37,836 Speaker 1: be heard, and then step aside. Okay, are you nervous? 419 00:23:39,236 --> 00:23:42,356 Speaker 1: Am I? Yeah? Dan has gotten better at knowing when 420 00:23:42,396 --> 00:23:45,196 Speaker 1: to use his ordinary privilege. Like the time the duo 421 00:23:45,276 --> 00:23:47,996 Speaker 1: we're making a show for the BBC, I'm openly going 422 00:23:47,996 --> 00:23:49,716 Speaker 1: into a room where a man is going to judge 423 00:23:49,756 --> 00:23:52,836 Speaker 1: me for being gay, and I don't want to be 424 00:23:53,276 --> 00:23:56,196 Speaker 1: judged for being gay. And I'll warn you the memory 425 00:23:56,236 --> 00:23:58,876 Speaker 1: of this incident still makes Dand so angry that he 426 00:23:58,916 --> 00:24:01,756 Speaker 1: can't help but curse. But I'll let James set the scene. 427 00:24:02,036 --> 00:24:05,956 Speaker 1: We did a documentary about gay conversion therapy and we 428 00:24:06,076 --> 00:24:08,356 Speaker 1: both sat there in front of this guy that performs 429 00:24:08,436 --> 00:24:14,516 Speaker 1: this pseudoscience on people, and that was really tough. I 430 00:24:14,596 --> 00:24:18,916 Speaker 1: want to talk about your journey and how you came 431 00:24:18,956 --> 00:24:22,916 Speaker 1: to this. I wanted to move away from the homosexual 432 00:24:22,996 --> 00:24:27,676 Speaker 1: feelings I experienced. Why did you want to stop those 433 00:24:27,716 --> 00:24:31,356 Speaker 1: feelings if you don't mind, I was not comfortable with them. 434 00:24:32,436 --> 00:24:35,196 Speaker 1: I got more annoyed by the gay conversion guy than 435 00:24:35,436 --> 00:24:38,996 Speaker 1: James did. I was livid that this man could come 436 00:24:38,996 --> 00:24:43,116 Speaker 1: out with this shit basically, and that plenty of impressionable 437 00:24:43,156 --> 00:24:45,996 Speaker 1: people from across the UK would fall for it. It 438 00:24:46,076 --> 00:24:48,876 Speaker 1: was amazing having Dan there to take over the mic 439 00:24:48,916 --> 00:24:52,676 Speaker 1: and shout this guy down and tell him he's wrong 440 00:24:52,876 --> 00:24:57,316 Speaker 1: from a kind of non emotional place, because obviously for 441 00:24:57,316 --> 00:24:59,876 Speaker 1: me to do that, it's a lot more raw. Dan 442 00:25:00,156 --> 00:25:03,396 Speaker 1: can come at it differently. The conversations James and Dan 443 00:25:03,476 --> 00:25:05,636 Speaker 1: have had about the importance of being an ally have 444 00:25:05,796 --> 00:25:08,356 Speaker 1: changed both of them and have helped them step into 445 00:25:08,396 --> 00:25:12,156 Speaker 1: social justice issues beyond the domain of queer rights. Being 446 00:25:12,156 --> 00:25:14,716 Speaker 1: white in the summer of twenty twenty has given both 447 00:25:14,716 --> 00:25:17,436 Speaker 1: of them an ordinary privilege that they can use to 448 00:25:17,436 --> 00:25:20,676 Speaker 1: speak out against anti black violence. Dan and I both 449 00:25:20,676 --> 00:25:23,516 Speaker 1: went to the Black Lives Matter protest in London, and 450 00:25:23,996 --> 00:25:27,476 Speaker 1: I really felt we needed to be there because you 451 00:25:27,516 --> 00:25:30,676 Speaker 1: can be nervous and uncomfortable and think it's not your issue, 452 00:25:30,756 --> 00:25:35,556 Speaker 1: it's not your plight. But as a gay person, I 453 00:25:35,596 --> 00:25:39,076 Speaker 1: know that I need allies, and so I wanted to 454 00:25:39,116 --> 00:25:42,196 Speaker 1: be there as an ally And there was a banner 455 00:25:42,236 --> 00:25:44,276 Speaker 1: there that said it all like, use your white privilege 456 00:25:44,316 --> 00:25:47,476 Speaker 1: to end white privilege. And I think if I've learned 457 00:25:47,516 --> 00:25:52,716 Speaker 1: anything throughout Black Lives Matter, it's that silence equals death 458 00:25:52,916 --> 00:25:55,636 Speaker 1: and that we need to stand up and say something. 459 00:25:56,076 --> 00:25:58,996 Speaker 1: And we're meant to feel uncomfortable. Right. If we want 460 00:25:58,996 --> 00:26:00,916 Speaker 1: to live in a society that's safe and fair for 461 00:26:00,956 --> 00:26:03,716 Speaker 1: all people, then each and every one of us needs 462 00:26:03,716 --> 00:26:07,476 Speaker 1: to embrace a bit more discomfort. Marginalized groups, of course, 463 00:26:07,556 --> 00:26:10,036 Speaker 1: don't really have a choice about this. They're forced to 464 00:26:10,036 --> 00:26:13,236 Speaker 1: be uncomfortable all the time. But the research shows that 465 00:26:13,316 --> 00:26:17,236 Speaker 1: individuals from non marginalized identities need to embrace their fair 466 00:26:17,276 --> 00:26:19,516 Speaker 1: share too, if we're ever going to build the kind 467 00:26:19,516 --> 00:26:22,156 Speaker 1: of world we want to live in. When we return 468 00:26:22,236 --> 00:26:24,956 Speaker 1: from the break, we'll see the power of this discomfort 469 00:26:24,996 --> 00:26:28,396 Speaker 1: embracing approach. We'll talk to a straight white ally who 470 00:26:28,436 --> 00:26:32,196 Speaker 1: spent the last seventy years feeling actively uncomfortable in the 471 00:26:32,276 --> 00:26:35,676 Speaker 1: fight for racial justice. We'll see that embracing the discomfort 472 00:26:35,676 --> 00:26:38,356 Speaker 1: that comes with this work, beyond simply being the right 473 00:26:38,476 --> 00:26:41,716 Speaker 1: thing to do, can also prove an unexpected path to 474 00:26:41,796 --> 00:26:45,876 Speaker 1: finding purpose and achieving happiness. The happiness Lap will be 475 00:26:45,996 --> 00:26:55,996 Speaker 1: right back. I was five years old being raised in 476 00:26:56,036 --> 00:26:58,956 Speaker 1: the town called Yonkers, New York, and looked outside my 477 00:26:58,996 --> 00:27:01,916 Speaker 1: bedom window one afternoon saw my father's image swing from 478 00:27:01,916 --> 00:27:04,796 Speaker 1: a tree with people under the tree picketing. Richard Lapchick 479 00:27:04,916 --> 00:27:07,196 Speaker 1: was introduced to the discomfort that comes from being a 480 00:27:07,196 --> 00:27:10,516 Speaker 1: white ally very early on in life. The crowd was 481 00:27:10,596 --> 00:27:13,796 Speaker 1: hanging in effigy of his dad. Some reports say they 482 00:27:13,796 --> 00:27:16,796 Speaker 1: even set fire to it. I had no idea what 483 00:27:16,836 --> 00:27:20,196 Speaker 1: it was about, except that they were angry. Richard's father, 484 00:27:20,356 --> 00:27:22,876 Speaker 1: Joe Lapchick, was head coach of the New York Knicks. 485 00:27:23,396 --> 00:27:26,236 Speaker 1: He had just signed Nat Sweetwater Clifton, one of the 486 00:27:26,236 --> 00:27:29,796 Speaker 1: first African American players in the NBA. To say that 487 00:27:29,876 --> 00:27:33,116 Speaker 1: his signing was wildly unpopular in nineteen fifty would be 488 00:27:33,116 --> 00:27:36,036 Speaker 1: an understatement. And for several years after that, I'd picked 489 00:27:36,116 --> 00:27:37,996 Speaker 1: up the extension phone in our house, my dad not 490 00:27:38,116 --> 00:27:41,756 Speaker 1: knowing I was listening, and it was racial epithets after 491 00:27:41,876 --> 00:27:45,596 Speaker 1: racial epithet being hurled at him. Before coaching for the Knicks, 492 00:27:45,716 --> 00:27:47,876 Speaker 1: Joe was a superstar in his own right. In the 493 00:27:47,956 --> 00:27:51,076 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties, he played center for the fabled Original Celtics. 494 00:27:51,676 --> 00:27:55,236 Speaker 1: Back then, basketball was segregated, but Joe's team chose to 495 00:27:55,236 --> 00:27:58,156 Speaker 1: play games against the New York Rends, the best African 496 00:27:58,156 --> 00:28:01,036 Speaker 1: American team of the day. There were race riots that 497 00:28:01,076 --> 00:28:03,516 Speaker 1: took place during the game. People stormed the court to 498 00:28:03,556 --> 00:28:06,836 Speaker 1: attack the players. The Celtics and the Wrens literally took 499 00:28:06,836 --> 00:28:10,796 Speaker 1: the court with knives packed in their socks to fend 500 00:28:10,876 --> 00:28:14,636 Speaker 1: themselves defend themselves if they were attacked by angry fans. 501 00:28:15,316 --> 00:28:18,276 Speaker 1: As the two teams traveled the country, Richard's dad saw 502 00:28:18,276 --> 00:28:21,836 Speaker 1: the racism that the Rents faced almost daily. The Celtics 503 00:28:21,876 --> 00:28:24,716 Speaker 1: stayed in fancy hotels that the Wrens weren't allowed to enter. 504 00:28:25,356 --> 00:28:28,036 Speaker 1: The Celtics could eat wherever they wanted, but the Rens 505 00:28:28,076 --> 00:28:31,476 Speaker 1: would rarely get served. There were even several occasions when 506 00:28:31,476 --> 00:28:34,596 Speaker 1: white cashiers refused to pump gas for the Wren's bus. 507 00:28:35,436 --> 00:28:37,756 Speaker 1: Joe decided he wanted to do something more than just 508 00:28:37,836 --> 00:28:40,836 Speaker 1: play on the court alongside the Wrens, so he developed 509 00:28:40,876 --> 00:28:43,796 Speaker 1: an opening game tradition that drew even more fire from 510 00:28:43,796 --> 00:28:48,116 Speaker 1: the fans. My dad and his opposing center, Tursann Cooper, 511 00:28:48,236 --> 00:28:51,636 Speaker 1: would not shake hands like people do at sporting events normally, 512 00:28:51,756 --> 00:28:54,316 Speaker 1: but would actually embrace each other and sometimes kiss each 513 00:28:54,316 --> 00:28:57,476 Speaker 1: other because they wanted fans in those stands to understand 514 00:28:57,516 --> 00:29:00,436 Speaker 1: that this game was about more than a great Hall 515 00:29:00,476 --> 00:29:02,716 Speaker 1: of Fame basketball game. It was about what their vision 516 00:29:02,796 --> 00:29:06,716 Speaker 1: was that America could someday become. As a teen, Richards 517 00:29:06,716 --> 00:29:08,516 Speaker 1: seems set on a career on the court, just like 518 00:29:08,596 --> 00:29:11,796 Speaker 1: his dad, I wanted nothing more than to be an 519 00:29:11,876 --> 00:29:14,596 Speaker 1: NBA player. I was six ft tall in the eighth 520 00:29:14,596 --> 00:29:16,636 Speaker 1: grade and one of the tallest players in the city, 521 00:29:16,636 --> 00:29:19,516 Speaker 1: and I was heavily recruited. Richard was accepted into a 522 00:29:19,596 --> 00:29:22,756 Speaker 1: prestigious basketball camp. It was there that he saw the 523 00:29:22,876 --> 00:29:26,356 Speaker 1: racism his father had witnessed a generation before was still 524 00:29:26,396 --> 00:29:29,196 Speaker 1: being directed at players of color. There were five other 525 00:29:29,196 --> 00:29:31,156 Speaker 1: white guys and a black guy at the camp, and 526 00:29:31,276 --> 00:29:34,196 Speaker 1: one of the white guys was hurling the N word 527 00:29:34,196 --> 00:29:36,076 Speaker 1: at the black guy for the first three days until 528 00:29:36,116 --> 00:29:38,956 Speaker 1: I finally challenged him. The kid knocked Richard out cool, 529 00:29:39,516 --> 00:29:43,236 Speaker 1: but as the science of ordinary privilege might suggest, Richard 530 00:29:43,236 --> 00:29:45,716 Speaker 1: thinks his challenge did at least help to prevent further 531 00:29:45,836 --> 00:29:49,476 Speaker 1: racist incidents. He also developed a lifelong friendship with the 532 00:29:49,516 --> 00:29:52,236 Speaker 1: black player. He helped a man who would later become 533 00:29:52,276 --> 00:29:55,476 Speaker 1: the basketball legend we know today as Kareem Abdul Jabbar. 534 00:29:56,076 --> 00:29:59,196 Speaker 1: As a fifteen year old white kid, I suddenly had 535 00:29:59,356 --> 00:30:02,036 Speaker 1: a young African American lens with which I could see 536 00:30:02,116 --> 00:30:05,076 Speaker 1: racism in America and what it was doing to communities 537 00:30:05,076 --> 00:30:07,796 Speaker 1: of color. And I decided, as a fifteen year old 538 00:30:08,556 --> 00:30:10,316 Speaker 1: that I was and the rest of my life working 539 00:30:10,316 --> 00:30:13,716 Speaker 1: in the area of civil rights. Richard is now a professor, author, 540 00:30:13,756 --> 00:30:17,956 Speaker 1: and human rights activist, someone the NCAA recently christened the 541 00:30:18,116 --> 00:30:22,116 Speaker 1: Racial Conscience of Sports. He campaigned for years and supported 542 00:30:22,116 --> 00:30:25,436 Speaker 1: the anti apartheid movement and worked to ban South African 543 00:30:25,436 --> 00:30:29,356 Speaker 1: teams from participating in international sports. I thought, maybe, for 544 00:30:29,396 --> 00:30:31,716 Speaker 1: the first time in my life, I'd done something Worthwhile 545 00:30:34,836 --> 00:30:36,956 Speaker 1: I was working late in my college office, there was 546 00:30:36,956 --> 00:30:38,596 Speaker 1: a knock on the door at ten forty five, and 547 00:30:38,596 --> 00:30:40,796 Speaker 1: I just assumed there was a campus security but when 548 00:30:40,836 --> 00:30:42,716 Speaker 1: I opened the door instead, it was two men wearing 549 00:30:42,716 --> 00:30:47,716 Speaker 1: stocking masks. The men beat Richard unconscious, causing extensive kidney 550 00:30:47,756 --> 00:30:50,876 Speaker 1: and liver damage, as well as a hernia and a concussion. 551 00:30:51,716 --> 00:30:54,356 Speaker 1: They also carved the N word into his stomach. With 552 00:30:54,436 --> 00:30:57,836 Speaker 1: a pair of officessors. Laying in the hospital that night, 553 00:30:57,916 --> 00:31:00,516 Speaker 1: I knew that I was going to spend the rest 554 00:31:00,556 --> 00:31:03,436 Speaker 1: of my life using the sports platform to address what 555 00:31:03,556 --> 00:31:05,476 Speaker 1: I thought at that time was just going to be racism, 556 00:31:05,516 --> 00:31:08,316 Speaker 1: but all social justice issues. I felt that if they 557 00:31:08,396 --> 00:31:10,156 Speaker 1: had people are to the length they did to try 558 00:31:10,196 --> 00:31:12,276 Speaker 1: to stop my father twenty eight years before, and to 559 00:31:12,356 --> 00:31:14,036 Speaker 1: the length they had just gone to try to stop 560 00:31:14,076 --> 00:31:15,956 Speaker 1: me that night, that they must have felt we were 561 00:31:15,996 --> 00:31:19,356 Speaker 1: having an impact on race relations in the United States 562 00:31:19,396 --> 00:31:22,116 Speaker 1: that they didn't want to see. Even though the beating 563 00:31:22,156 --> 00:31:25,676 Speaker 1: stiffened richards resolve, he never allowed the ordeal to undermine 564 00:31:25,716 --> 00:31:28,836 Speaker 1: the humility that, he argues all allies need to maintain 565 00:31:29,036 --> 00:31:31,596 Speaker 1: in the fight for justice. At the time of the attack, 566 00:31:31,796 --> 00:31:33,636 Speaker 1: people said to me, well, now you must understand what 567 00:31:33,676 --> 00:31:35,836 Speaker 1: it's like to be black, and I said, I don't 568 00:31:35,916 --> 00:31:38,716 Speaker 1: understand what it's like to be black. At any given point, 569 00:31:39,116 --> 00:31:41,556 Speaker 1: I could have walked away from the civil rights movement 570 00:31:41,596 --> 00:31:43,836 Speaker 1: and just rejoined that white middle class where all the 571 00:31:43,836 --> 00:31:46,596 Speaker 1: privileges that we have and not face what a person 572 00:31:46,636 --> 00:31:48,516 Speaker 1: of color phases every day when they go out of 573 00:31:48,556 --> 00:31:51,396 Speaker 1: their house. This is one of the reasons Richard is 574 00:31:51,436 --> 00:31:54,916 Speaker 1: so passionate that more allies need to step up, especially 575 00:31:54,916 --> 00:31:57,396 Speaker 1: when it comes to the fight against anti black violence. 576 00:31:57,956 --> 00:32:00,436 Speaker 1: Everybody can't be on the front lines, but everybody's got 577 00:32:00,436 --> 00:32:03,636 Speaker 1: to go off the sidelines. You've got to get involved 578 00:32:03,636 --> 00:32:06,476 Speaker 1: in some way. It might be picking whatever the issue 579 00:32:06,556 --> 00:32:08,316 Speaker 1: is you want to be part of, read about it, 580 00:32:08,356 --> 00:32:11,716 Speaker 1: study it under standard, find an organization that's doing something 581 00:32:11,716 --> 00:32:15,596 Speaker 1: about it, volunteer for it, and maybe then you might 582 00:32:15,636 --> 00:32:18,036 Speaker 1: become emboldened after that to do more. But at least 583 00:32:18,076 --> 00:32:21,876 Speaker 1: get involved with something. And we've had hundreds of years 584 00:32:21,876 --> 00:32:24,636 Speaker 1: of oppression in the United States that have created what 585 00:32:24,636 --> 00:32:26,596 Speaker 1: we're dealing with now, and it's going to take some 586 00:32:26,636 --> 00:32:29,116 Speaker 1: time and strong struggle and effort on the part of 587 00:32:29,116 --> 00:32:33,356 Speaker 1: everybody to address those issues. But even after reading and 588 00:32:33,436 --> 00:32:36,316 Speaker 1: listening and volunteering, don't be tempted to get a little 589 00:32:36,316 --> 00:32:39,236 Speaker 1: performative and show off what a woke good person you are. 590 00:32:39,756 --> 00:32:42,076 Speaker 1: To be a better ally, we need to refrain from 591 00:32:42,076 --> 00:32:45,476 Speaker 1: the so called cookie seeking behavior as activists refer to it. 592 00:32:46,116 --> 00:32:49,116 Speaker 1: Reward seeking doesn't help, and worse, it can yet again 593 00:32:49,276 --> 00:32:52,316 Speaker 1: create more emotional labor for the group you're allegedly trying 594 00:32:52,316 --> 00:32:54,636 Speaker 1: to help. This has to be a selfless act. I 595 00:32:54,716 --> 00:32:56,756 Speaker 1: mean it can be a rewarding act for you know, 596 00:32:56,876 --> 00:33:00,036 Speaker 1: everything that I've been involved with I feel incredibly rewarded by. 597 00:33:00,236 --> 00:33:02,676 Speaker 1: But I didn't get involved to get rewarded. And I 598 00:33:02,716 --> 00:33:06,276 Speaker 1: think that that's what people need to understand, and I 599 00:33:06,276 --> 00:33:08,156 Speaker 1: think most people get it when you hear it in 600 00:33:08,196 --> 00:33:12,836 Speaker 1: those terms. Simply put, allies, it's not about you. Caring 601 00:33:12,876 --> 00:33:14,916 Speaker 1: about justice means you've got to be willing to do 602 00:33:14,956 --> 00:33:16,876 Speaker 1: the work without a cookie at the end from the 603 00:33:16,876 --> 00:33:19,716 Speaker 1: group you're trying to help. But this doesn't mean the 604 00:33:19,756 --> 00:33:23,196 Speaker 1: allyship was without its sweet rewards. The good news, as 605 00:33:23,276 --> 00:33:26,036 Speaker 1: Richard has seen firsthand, is that putting in all this 606 00:33:26,156 --> 00:33:28,916 Speaker 1: hard work is worth it in the end, not just 607 00:33:28,956 --> 00:33:32,396 Speaker 1: for fixing society, but also for our own personal sense 608 00:33:32,396 --> 00:33:37,356 Speaker 1: of meaning and well being. I have an incredibly happy life. 609 00:33:37,476 --> 00:33:40,716 Speaker 1: There were definitely moments in my life that were difficult 610 00:33:40,716 --> 00:33:44,156 Speaker 1: to get through, but those moments all made me stronger 611 00:33:44,196 --> 00:33:47,356 Speaker 1: in the end, and being stronger makes me happier. As 612 00:33:47,356 --> 00:33:50,276 Speaker 1: we discuss so often in the Happiness Lab, doing good 613 00:33:50,276 --> 00:33:53,756 Speaker 1: for others makes us feel good, often in profound and 614 00:33:53,876 --> 00:33:57,476 Speaker 1: long lasting ways we don't even realize. Doing good for 615 00:33:57,516 --> 00:34:01,116 Speaker 1: the world also provides us with greater emotional resilience, which 616 00:34:01,116 --> 00:34:04,636 Speaker 1: I saw firsthand talking to Richard, because despite all the 617 00:34:04,676 --> 00:34:07,876 Speaker 1: anger and division we've seen in twenty twenty, Richard is 618 00:34:07,916 --> 00:34:10,836 Speaker 1: brimming with hope. I remember in nineteen seventy seven I 619 00:34:10,876 --> 00:34:13,836 Speaker 1: was in Luanda and Zambia with the person who was 620 00:34:13,876 --> 00:34:16,196 Speaker 1: my mentor. His name was George Hauser, and he had 621 00:34:16,236 --> 00:34:18,916 Speaker 1: founded the Anti Apartheid Movement, an anti colonial move in 622 00:34:18,916 --> 00:34:21,116 Speaker 1: the United States. And I said, George, do you think 623 00:34:21,156 --> 00:34:25,796 Speaker 1: that Kenney, Bissau, Angola, Mozambique, Namibia, what was then Rhodesia, 624 00:34:25,916 --> 00:34:28,396 Speaker 1: and South Africa will be free in our lifetime? And 625 00:34:28,436 --> 00:34:32,156 Speaker 1: he said, rich I feel something's different. I feel that 626 00:34:32,196 --> 00:34:35,356 Speaker 1: there's going to be changed. Less than twenty years later, 627 00:34:35,676 --> 00:34:37,716 Speaker 1: Richards stood on the steps of the Union building in 628 00:34:37,716 --> 00:34:41,396 Speaker 1: South Africa and watched Nelson Mandela sworn in as president. 629 00:34:41,716 --> 00:34:43,756 Speaker 1: If that man who had been a political prisoner and 630 00:34:43,796 --> 00:34:45,676 Speaker 1: the most racist system of government on the face of 631 00:34:45,676 --> 00:34:47,516 Speaker 1: the earth and the second half of the twentieth century 632 00:34:47,836 --> 00:34:51,076 Speaker 1: could become its president, then anything and everything is possible 633 00:34:51,116 --> 00:34:53,436 Speaker 1: if we put our mind to it. As they said 634 00:34:53,476 --> 00:34:56,036 Speaker 1: at the top of the show, Making this episode has 635 00:34:56,076 --> 00:34:59,916 Speaker 1: been particularly tough for me. I'm a biracial woman, but 636 00:34:59,956 --> 00:35:02,796 Speaker 1: I'm also white passing, and that means I'm often in 637 00:35:02,836 --> 00:35:05,676 Speaker 1: the unique position of seeing some of the anti black 638 00:35:05,756 --> 00:35:08,436 Speaker 1: racism that my friends and colleagues experience all the time, 639 00:35:09,156 --> 00:35:13,116 Speaker 1: while simultaneously having the realization that my skin color protects 640 00:35:13,116 --> 00:35:16,196 Speaker 1: me from most of it. I don't always realize the 641 00:35:16,196 --> 00:35:19,556 Speaker 1: incredible privilege that comes with all that, and the responsibility 642 00:35:19,596 --> 00:35:22,116 Speaker 1: I have to be an ally to all identities that 643 00:35:22,156 --> 00:35:25,916 Speaker 1: are facing injustice. While working on this episode, I've spent 644 00:35:25,956 --> 00:35:28,516 Speaker 1: the entire time worried if I'm using the right language, 645 00:35:28,876 --> 00:35:30,996 Speaker 1: or if I'm choosing the right guests, or if I've 646 00:35:31,036 --> 00:35:33,196 Speaker 1: done the best job I could in raising these issues. 647 00:35:33,836 --> 00:35:36,756 Speaker 1: None of this was fun or comfortable, but it's exactly 648 00:35:36,836 --> 00:35:39,596 Speaker 1: the sort of discomfort that marginalize people and those that 649 00:35:39,636 --> 00:35:41,996 Speaker 1: don't have my skin privilege go through all the time. 650 00:35:42,716 --> 00:35:45,596 Speaker 1: They don't get to avoid it, and so honestly neither 651 00:35:45,596 --> 00:35:49,196 Speaker 1: should I. Plus, the science of allyships suggests that all 652 00:35:49,236 --> 00:35:53,356 Speaker 1: the discomfort I'm experiencing will ultimately make me happier because 653 00:35:53,516 --> 00:35:56,676 Speaker 1: it's necessary for becoming the anti racist builder that I 654 00:35:56,716 --> 00:35:59,876 Speaker 1: really want to be. But it's also worth validating that 655 00:35:59,996 --> 00:36:02,556 Speaker 1: all this is really hard, but there's no time like 656 00:36:02,636 --> 00:36:05,476 Speaker 1: the present. If each of us is willing to intentionally 657 00:36:05,516 --> 00:36:08,316 Speaker 1: take on a bit more discomfort to do our part 658 00:36:08,356 --> 00:36:11,316 Speaker 1: to fight system of injustice, then we might be able 659 00:36:11,316 --> 00:36:14,596 Speaker 1: to build a world that brings genuine happiness to all people. 660 00:36:15,556 --> 00:36:17,756 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining me for this second season 661 00:36:17,756 --> 00:36:20,236 Speaker 1: of The Happiness Lab. I hope it's taught you newde 662 00:36:20,236 --> 00:36:23,036 Speaker 1: tips you can use to make yourself and our world 663 00:36:23,236 --> 00:36:36,556 Speaker 1: a little bit happier. The Happiness Lab is co written 664 00:36:36,596 --> 00:36:39,916 Speaker 1: and produced by Ryan Dilley. Our original music was composed 665 00:36:39,916 --> 00:36:43,436 Speaker 1: by Zachary Silver, with additional scoring, mixing, and mastering by 666 00:36:43,436 --> 00:36:47,596 Speaker 1: Evan Viola, Pete Notaton also helped with production. Joseph Friedman 667 00:36:47,716 --> 00:36:50,076 Speaker 1: checked our facts and our editing was done by Sophie 668 00:36:50,076 --> 00:36:54,476 Speaker 1: Crane McKinnon. Special thanks to mail LaBelle, Carli Nigliori, Heather Faine, 669 00:36:54,756 --> 00:36:58,876 Speaker 1: Julia Barton, Maggie Taylor, Maya Kanig, Jacob Weisberg, and my 670 00:36:58,956 --> 00:37:01,956 Speaker 1: agent Ben Davis. The Happiness Lab is brought to you 671 00:37:01,996 --> 00:37:05,916 Speaker 1: by Pushkin Industries and me Doctor Laurie Santos