WEBVTT - Bannon’s Indictment Is the Fight Both Sides Want 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:04.440 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:07.280 Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stanovik. We're here every day bringing 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:09.840 you the latest news from the world to business and finance, 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.680 plus technology, politics, economics, all purtnising the power of Business 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:17.159 Week reporters and editors, not to mention our journalists and 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:20.000 analyst in more than one twenty countries. You can download 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:23.479 Bloomberg Business Weekend iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot Com. You 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:25.439 can also listen to our radio show at two pm 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:27.880 Eastern Time on the Bloomberg Radio or watch us on 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:32.760 YouTube search Bloomberg Clovel News. We're tracking that on this Monday. 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:35.960 Also tracking what's going on in COVID. We did see 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:38.440 New York City asking healthcare providers to give a booster 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:41.200 basically to anyone who would cross one as New Cases 0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:43.040 Pickups team. And then we are Tim seeing a new 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:45.680 wave of infections across Europe really showing no signs. It's 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:47.360 like that was really the big story for like over 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:49.639 the weekend. Yeah, perhaps the most controversial was what's going 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:52.000 on in Austria. It's beginning a lockdown for people who 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:55.480 haven't yet been vaccinated. So if you haven't gotten the shot, 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:58.080 you're going into lockdown. Ireland got set to recommend people 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:00.880 start working from home again, the UK spanning it's booster program, 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:03.080 Prime Minister Boris Johnson saying that he wouldn't rule out 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:06.080 another wave of lockdowns this winner if infection rates jump. 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:08.119 All right. Well, one of our go to voices over 0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:10.880 the last year or so has been Dr Mario Ramirez. 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:14.160 He's managing director of the national nonprofit organization Opportunity Labs. 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:18.800 They work across different sectors healthcare, education, housing, workforce. It's 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:21.680 all about really improving outcomes for low income Americans who 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:25.840 have been severely impacted, certainly during the pandemic. He also 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:28.040 served as emergency medicine doctor and flight surgeon in the 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:30.520 U S Air Force, Acting Director also for the Office 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:34.440 of Pandemic and Emergency Threats at HHS during the Obama administration. 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:37.080 He is back with us on the phone from Washington, 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:39.240 d C. Dr Amira is good to have you back 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:41.959 here on Business Week. How are you and how do 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:47.040 you see the current round of COVID headlines? Well, thanks 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:49.880 for having me back, Carol, It's nice to be with you. Um. 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:51.760 You know, I think you guys had a great lead 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:53.880 in there. Uh. You know, for the last eight weeks 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:56.400 or so, we have enjoyed some decreasing cases here in 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:57.920 the United States, and I think a lot of us 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:00.680 were really opal that the trend was going to continue. 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:02.560 But certainly over the last week and a half we've 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:06.480 seen some troubling signs um maybe most notably capped off 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:10.040 this afternoon with Dr Fauci announcing that cases are up 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:13.120 by about eleven over the last week here in the 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:15.360 United States. And I think, you know, many of us 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:17.920 are concerned that the trends we're seeing in Eastern Europe, 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:21.160 where vaccination rates in some countries and most notably Germany 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:22.920 are very similar to what we have here in the 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:26.320 United States, are an ominous sign for what media ahead 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:28.600 for some parts of the country in the next few 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:31.800 weeks ahead. But should we be counting or obviously we 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:33.920 should be counting cases, but should we be having this 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:36.760 reaction to when we see cases going out the vaccines 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:40.760 are available widely, should we be focusing on hospitalizations and 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:44.440 focusing on who gets severely sick? Because the vaccines have 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:47.919 been proven doctor to be effective in preventing severe hospitalization 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:51.040 and death. So You're making a great point, tim, And 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:53.600 what I would say is that in really well vaccinated countries, 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:57.560 most notably Spain and Portugal, where vaccination rates are north 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:01.760 of in some areas, they've been able to sort of 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:05.160 really separate the number of cases from the number of hospitalization, 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:08.079 meaning that even when their cases go up, so much 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:11.280 of their population is vaccinated that the hospitalization level seemed 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:14.040 to be staying pretty flat. But in countries like Germany, 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:16.680 for instance, whose vaccination rate is almost exactly what we 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:19.079 have here in the United States, there are still so 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:22.480 many unvaccinated people or people whose immunity is waning from 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:25.480 vaccines that they received six to eight months ago, that 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:27.960 as their case counts start to go up, their hospitalizations 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:30.640 start to go up significantly as well. Now, of course, 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:32.519 we know that that is a little bit of a 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:34.760 lag indicator, right There can be two to three weeks 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:37.960 before hospitalizations start to go up. And so my concern, 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:39.760 what I think the concern that a lot of other 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:42.640 people have, you know, is that if we chalk it 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:45.280 up essentially to saying that we have enough of the 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:48.839 country vaccinated that we won't see hospitalizations go up, that's 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:51.000 not necessarily what we're seeing from some of the countries 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:56.080 in Eastern Europe. So what do you make too of 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:58.680 New York saying basically, if you want a booster, go 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:00.480 get it. Should we just kind of opened up the 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:04.360 flood dates here. Well, you know, this is an area 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:08.080 of ongoing debate, Caroline, and I think many folks, particularly 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:12.080 you know Dr Fauci, Dr Kessler, Dr Murphy, um, you know, 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:16.080 and myself, although I would include myself in that same company, UM, 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:18.920 you know, have advocated strongly for a broad based booster 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:21.400 rollout since the beginning. UM. You know, when I look 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:23.320 at the data, and what I think, you know, many 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:25.560 of them have said is that the overseas data from 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:29.200 countries like Israel, UH and other places suggest that boosters 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:31.799 really are needed, and that they can have a significant 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:34.840 increase UH in the immunity for your population. And that's 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:37.400 part of why the Israeli case counts have dropped so 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:41.040 precipitously over the last few weeks. UM. But there are 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:44.200 certainly other folks UH in the academic community, on the 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:46.679 CDC's advisory committee who have said that we don't fully 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:51.159 understand the risk of myocardias associated with some of these vaccines. 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:53.160 And that we need more information before we really give 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:55.680 a determination about how broad WAYLD roll out the boosters, 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:58.800 and I think we're many of them. Well, what are 0:04:58.800 --> 0:04:59.760 I was going to say is that I think you 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:03.040 know of us believe that the mile card is potentially 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:06.080 caused by the vaccine is barely self limited, but the 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:09.400 risk caused by another surge is quite real, And so 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:12.680 in my mind, I think that the benefit part of 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:16.000 that equation really favors of birth much broader based booster 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:18.080 rollout than we've done so far. But I think there's 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:20.200 so much confusion when it comes to who needs it 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:22.440 and when they actually need a booster. And I've been 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:25.279 talking about this Carol with friends and family and talked 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:27.520 about it over the weekend co workers to today. When 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:29.480 do we know when we need a booster? When should 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:30.880 we get a booster? How how do we know how 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:33.280 were antiboddies are doing well? Dr Mirrors? To be fair, 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:35.200 like I had signed up for a booster, although I 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:37.920 didn't quite the hospital that I had gotten my initial 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:39.480 shots had reached out to me and said, hey, you're 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:42.080 free to now get a booster, and then I didn't 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:44.200 really i'd signed up, had it all set and then 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:46.320 I realized, you know what, I don't really needle the 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:50.039 criteria of it, UM, and so then canceled it because 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:53.320 I just felt not right. And I do think there's 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:55.960 some confusion about should we just go do it, um 0:05:56.080 --> 0:06:00.440 and and just move on. You're both as right. There 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:02.280 is a lot of confusion about this, and I think 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:04.279 a lot of this stems from the disagreement that we 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:07.920 saw between um, some of the White House officials from 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:10.520 the FDA and from the CDC's advisory can make several 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:13.120 weeks ago, when they were trying to figure out how 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:15.600 broadly to authorize the boosters, uh, you know, And I 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:17.240 think a lot of the confusion that we're seeing now 0:06:17.360 --> 0:06:19.839 is the tail end effect of that. UM. You know, 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:22.840 even within lots of the scientists in those two groups, 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:26.000 we see folks disagreeing about how broadly booster should be 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:28.720 rolled out, and at least two conflicting messages. That's a 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:31.600 very nuanced argument, and it's hard for the public to 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:35.479 fully taken, and I think understand sometimes. UM. What I 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:38.840 think is becoming more clear from overseas data are that 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:42.320 more and more countries are expanding the kind of population 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:44.400 that should receive boosters. And what I think we should 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:47.520 see here in the United States, um, because we have 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:50.160 lagged behind Europe typically a bouye about four to six 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:54.520 weeks UM, is that significant parts of that continent are 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:57.880 seeing a serious rise in cases. And so folks are 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:00.600 here in the United States on the fence about whether 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:03.520 or not they should pursue a booster for themselves. You know, 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:05.520 I think the evidence is quite good that booster shots 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:07.839 can really boost her immunity. Right as we get into 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:10.320 this period where folks are getting together over the holidays, 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:12.760 where the weather it's turning colder, it just makes good 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:15.560 sense from my perspective, for as many folks as possible 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:17.160 to go out and get a booster shot. Kind of 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:19.080 like a no brainer. Just when it meant to the 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:22.840 headline crossing the CDC revising Japan COVID nineteen travel advisory 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:25.080 to the lowest risk level, and tim we're seeing a 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:27.560 lot of the back and forth between countries saying who 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:29.680 can come in or reopening borders. Yeah, and where I 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:31.200 think we're going to see a lot more of that too, 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:35.080 where you gonna I'm laughing because you know, again Dr Ramirez, 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:37.320 it's like, Okay, well we know that we should get boosters, 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:39.280 but should people who got fviser get a visor shot 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:41.200 or people who got Maderna get a Maderna shots or 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:43.400 they mix and match. Again, it seems like there's no 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:45.720 clear guidance on this, tim and I keep going back 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:47.240 and forth, like, are you gonna get when you can 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:49.800 get your booster? Where you go different? When you apologies 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:51.640 to people who listen to our show regularly because that's 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:54.800 something I've been talking about for three weeks. Well, you're right, 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:56.160 you know, and needs of the same questions that I 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:58.120 get when I work in my in my clinical life 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:01.400 every day. Um, And I think at this point there 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:03.560 is not a clear recommendation for people to try to 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:06.960 actively mix boosters except for people who received the Johnson 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:09.800 and Johnson as their first There it seems to be 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:12.320 fairly strong evidence that those folks should go out and 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:15.160 get an mr and a based booster. But the mixing 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:18.000 studies between people who got fiser and who got madernas 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:21.040 shows that there's relatively little different in the immunity that's 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:23.640 brought on by mixing between those two categories, And so 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:26.200 right now there's not a firm recommendation to actively try 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:28.840 to mix between those two with the data shows is 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:31.360 that mixing them is safe and so people shouldn't be 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:34.599 concerned about side effects. Um, but the good news is 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:36.560 that if you've got fiser, you got a Fiser booster. 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:38.559 If you mix it with madernas, you're going to be 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:41.040 on the same level of immunity relatively speaking, if you 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:43.840 get a booster from any of those manufacturers. All right, 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:47.199 well that's good to know. Hey, just got about seconds here. 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:50.480 You are somebody who's worked within the administration, the Obama administration. 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:53.120 What are you hoping the current administration is doing to 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:58.080 plan for the next health pandemic? Well, I think you know, 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:01.160 as I said, I think there's there are concerns of 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:04.120 a wave of some magnitude that are coming this way. 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:06.160 And so what I hope the administration is really planning 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:10.800 for our good plans to position adequate supplies of monoclonal antibodies, 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:13.560 good supplies of PPE for folks, and as we get 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:15.240 you know a little bit later into this year when 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:17.680 we talked about the oral anti virals, I hope that 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:20.440 they're formulating a good plan for distribution so that folks 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:24.400 have access to those medications if they're approved because time 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:26.480 is really of the essence when it comes to starting 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:29.680 some of these new therapeutics, and just fifteen seconds testing 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:35.079 absolutely necessary, especially as we're gonna be mixing between states, 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:38.600 folks coming together with different families. Uh, it absolutely makes 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:41.000 sense to try and utilize those tools right now. Did 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:43.079 my test this morning? My weekly test? Oh? Yeah, I 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:45.120 haven't done. I do mind on Thursdays? Okay, I don't 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:47.079 know why I'm a Monday too. I don't know. It 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:49.040 kind of varies. But look, we are really lucky here 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:51.160 that we do have that opportunity because if you go 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:52.840 and buy try to buy a test in a store, 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:55.560 it's difficult to do. Those are also sometimes antigen tests, 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:57.640 not PCR tests, but there are plenty of places you 0:09:57.640 --> 0:09:59.560 get tested right now, feel very spoiled that they make 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:02.000 it so easy you here. Um certainly at Bloomberg. Hey, 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:04.680 thank you so much. Dr Mario Ramirez, matching director at 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:08.640 the national nonprofit organization Opportunity Lives, joining us on this Monday. 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:13.680 This is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:18.079 Masser and Bloomberg Quick Takes. Tim Stinovic from Bloomberg Radio 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:21.200 tweets on selling shares again, sparing with the U. S. 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:23.920 Senator on Twitter. And then you've got famed investor Michael 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:28.120 Bury weighing in again on Elon Musk. Again. We've been 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:32.440 here before again Ditto, ditto, ditto. Keeping track of it all, 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:35.440 uh and keeping us focused on what really matters is 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:38.440 our Bloomberg technology reporter Dana Hall joining us via zoom 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:40.800 in San Francisco. So good to see you on zoom. 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:43.480 Um Man, I feel like, didn't we do this story 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:49.600 last week? Danna? Yeah, it's groundhold day. I mean yeah, 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:51.920 every you know, every I think that Elon Musk is 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:54.160 very shrewd about how social media works and how the 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:56.240 mainstream media works. Frankly, I mean he knows that on 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:59.360 a weekend when most newsrooms are thinly staffed, if you 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:02.520 want attention, and he could just start something and um, 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:05.160 you know, this weekend it was about sort of going 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:08.040 after Bernie Sanders, who has called for you know, billionaires 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:10.160 to pay their fair share. I would know that this 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:13.240 was not really a spat or sparring. I mean, Sanders 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:15.719 did not respond, So it's like this one sided conversation 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:18.840 where Musk keeps tweeting at Bernie Sanders, but as far 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:20.440 as I know, Bernie, I don't even know if Bernie 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:22.760 Man's his own Twitter account. I mean, it could be 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:25.920 Stafford and he doesn't reply to people, so it's a 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:27.760 bit one sided at this point. Well, we should know 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:30.240 that he didn't even call out Elon Musk and a tweet. 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:32.560 Here's what Bernie Sanders wrote, quote, we must demand that 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:35.960 the extremely wealthy pay their fair share, period And look, 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:38.120 it's fair to say that it was directed to people 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:40.720 like Elon Musk. After all, he is the wealthiest person 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:45.880 in the world. What do we know about Elon Musk 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:47.800 and taxes right now? Because you've been on there've been 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:49.560 on the program with us before, and you reminded us 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:52.040 that this is the guy who's moved from California to 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:55.200 Texas and moved the company's headquarters from California to Texas. 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:58.160 So what do we know, Well, the company headquarters have 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:00.920 not moved yet. I mean, Musk announced that Tesla will 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:03.320 move its headquarters from Palo Alto to Austin, but they 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:05.079 haven't moved yet. I mean I check you know, I 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:07.680 check out on the regular with the Texas Secretary of State. 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:09.280 I mean, if you look at all of the filings 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:12.240 for Musk's share sales. I mean the headquarters are still 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:15.240 in Palo Alto, but yeah, he himself has moved to Texas, 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:17.959 and so as he exercises these tax options, it will 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:21.560 be interesting to see how much of a text how 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:23.960 much he owes to California, since the options were earned 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:26.560 when he was still living in California. But yeah, I 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:29.480 mean he has to pay taxes. Um. You know, some 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:32.200 members of Congress would like billionaires to pay more, but 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:35.360 I mean that's still all under debate. Unless I checked, 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:37.800 the sort of tax on billionaires was not part of 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:41.680 the reconciliation package. But I haven't seen the latest today. 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:43.480 I have no idea what the discussion is, but I 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:47.319 think that you know, Musk is very sensitive to taxes. 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:49.480 He also thinks that there's a lot of government waste, 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:51.800 and he should know. I mean, he's a government contractor, right, 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:53.959 I mean, SpaceX gets a lot of money from the 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:57.160 Defense Department for launches, and I think that he sees 0:12:57.200 --> 0:12:59.240 a lot of waste and bloat in the federal government 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:01.800 in general. So another reason why he's, you know, not 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:04.000 so crazy about being taxed himself. He wants to know 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:07.079 where the money is spent. Okay, sees sees where the 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:10.240 waste is, but at the same time is the beneficiary 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:13.480 of that for SpaceX And also, as you have noted 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:16.559 in the past, UH, federal tax credits to subsidize the 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:21.199 purchase of electronic vehicles have certainly helped the company Tesla absolutely, 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:23.720 I mean and Tesla Tesla got a really important Department 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:26.640 of Energy loan very early on and its founding Um, 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:28.720 you know that it paid back in full with interest, 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:32.080 But I mean, you know, it's it's just it's yeah, 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:35.240 it's an interesting conundrum, you know, being opposed to taxes 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:37.920 on your personal wealth, but being the beneficiary of tax 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:40.280 pay your subsidies for your companies. For sure. Can't wait 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:43.000 for the next round of government negotiations. Just quickly, Danna 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:46.240 kind of at thirty seconds, is there something like you's going, hey, 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:48.040 look at this flashy thing I'm doing on Twitter. Is 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:50.480 there something we should really be focusing on right now 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:54.280 when it comes to Tesla? Just quickly. I mean, I 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:56.600 think the supply chains shortage is still an issue for 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:59.720 all automakers. Tesla has spared better than most because it's 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:02.320 able a pivot quick fairly quickly and has a fairly 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:06.079 integrated supply chain. Um, you know, who know. I mean, 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:09.520 it's always the kudos like you know, zig werother zag. 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:11.880 I mean, just because he's tweeting about something doesn't mean, 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:13.800 you know, is it distraction or is it really was 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:18.840 on his mind? I just you know, just yeah, all right, 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:21.880 thank you as always really appreciated. Downa Hall technology reporter 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:24.560 at Bloomberg News via zoom from our San Francisco bureau. 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:28.720 You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:32.960 Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. Well, when 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:34.960 this crossed the Bloomberg on Friday, we knew we wanted 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:37.960 to hear more from Bloomberg Business Week's Josh Green. What crossed, 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:40.520 of course, Friday, was the indictment by the Justice Department 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:43.840 of former Trump White House strategist Steve Bannon. Bloomberg Business 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:46.320 Week national correspondent Josh Green, joining us now on the 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:49.320 phone in Washington, DC, is the author of Devil's Bargain, 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:53.520 Steve Bannon, Donald Trump and the Nationalist Uprising, including other books, 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:55.880 also with us as Bloomberg Business weekender Joe Webber with 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:58.600 us on the remote access in Brooklyn, I have to 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:00.040 say we did. We're like Tim and I like, we 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.800 gotta talk to Josh here, Joe. Yeah, I mean, Josh 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:07.200 obviously wrote the Bandon book when when I didn't even 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:08.960 get a heads up from him that he was working 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:11.240 on this, and then I saw this the headline cross 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:13.000 and I was like, yeah, of course, Like, there's nobody 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:16.640 I want to hear more about um Bannon from right 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:19.160 now than than Josh. So so Josh, bring us up 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:21.400 to speed on on what what you wrote and kind 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:24.720 of where things stand on the band in Front. Well, basically, 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:26.640 I mean, the news was that Bannon was indicted by 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:28.960 the Justice Department, and this is the first time in 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:32.840 almost four decades that they pursued somebody for criminal contempt 0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:38.000 Congress because of Bannon's refusal to testify to the January 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:41.280 six Commission. And I think what's interesting about the news 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:43.400 is sort of twofold. You know. What I write in 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:45.960 the piece is that both sides in this fight are 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:49.000 getting what they want. Um. The real news on Friday 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:51.560 was the Justice Department was going to issue this indictment 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:54.400 and answer a question that a lot of anxious Democrats 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:57.600 had about would Biden really go after this, or would 0:15:57.600 --> 0:15:59.920 he take some kind of pretext of not wanting to 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.520 flame partisan passions and kind of let it go. We 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:04.720 have an answer to that, Justice Bartman is going to fight. 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:08.480 What's interesting is that Bannon wants to fight too, although 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:11.120 for entirely different reasons. What he is trying to do 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:14.880 here basically is to demonstrate his loyalty to Trump by 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:19.240 flaunting this congressional subpoena and you know, getting perp walked 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:21.840 into the courthouse today, which I'm sure everybody saw on TV. 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:25.560 Because he thinks this is the key to showing Trump 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:30.120 that he's loyal and increasing his power, meaning Bannon's power 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:35.880 in Trump circling in Republican politics. You know, go ahead, 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:40.160 please don't Josh, is it you know, if it's between 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:45.200 being loyal and going to jail or making a scene 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:47.760 and then kaving, what do you think? Which way do 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:50.800 you think Bannon's tilting? Well, so, I know from from 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:52.760 speaking to Bannon the last couple months, he doesn't really 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:55.400 quite see it. Is that clear a trade off? You know? 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:59.360 His his refusal to testify is based on the claim 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:02.160 that Trump as executive privilege, and that's something that the 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:06.000 courts have yet to litigate um So, his bet in 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:07.720 the short term is that he can do this and 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:10.160 not pay any kind of a price, because it could 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:13.640 be months or even years until courts decide, and maybe 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.560 the Supreme Court ends up deciding whether or not Trump 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:19.639 can claim executive privilege and whether or not Bannon is 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:22.800 subjected to that. Um I think the other part of 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:25.800 the timing thing here is that Bannon is betting that 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:28.760 Republicans gonna win back the House of Representatives next November 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:32.560 and shut down this investigation. That wouldn't necessarily get him 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:36.119 out of the clear with the Justice Department, but basically 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:39.080 this is a misdemeanor charge. He doesn't see any short 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:42.480 term penalty that he's paying, but in the meantime, it 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:45.280 enables him to make this very public display of loyalty 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:48.680 to Trump, And sure enough, on Friday afternoon, Trump sent 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:53.439 out a statement praising Bannon um for his obstinacy, which 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:58.439 is a market uh flip flop of where Trump was 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:01.959 on Bannon four years ago when he famously fired him 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:05.280 from his White House job and issued a crazy press 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:09.320 release referring to him as sloppy Steve um. So, Bannon, 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.879 at least as far as getting back in Trump's good graces. Uh, 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:15.400 seems to be using this to to kind of get 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:17.480 what he wants and not what Congress wants. Well, it's 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:19.880 interesting too, we were just talking about Larry Summer says 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:23.720 inflation risks bringing Donald Trump back to power. Uh, there's 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:26.000 just a lot of things already looking at you know, 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:29.879 the next presidential rate. Um, does Trump like Bannon? Still? 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:34.040 Would he bring him into the fold again? You know? 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:36.800 I don't think that Trump likes or dislikes people like 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:40.080 ordinary human beings. Do. I think he has a vector 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:43.520 of is this person loyal and supportive and does he 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:48.080 praise me? Or is this person someone who Trump views 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:51.480 is disloyal and won't do his bidding, someone like my 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:54.119 pents who Trump has been has gone after quite a 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:57.640 bit the last six seven, eight months. I think that 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:00.280 in terms of the way Trump views the world world, 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:05.480 Bannon has clearly moved from the category of bad disloyal guy. 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:08.600 It's a good disloyal guy. And the key to having 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:11.119 any kind of power in Republican politics today is to 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:15.000 be seen as being in Trump's favor. I think Bannon Um, 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:18.919 by doing this so publicly, has put himself in that category. Well, 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:20.960