1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. Welcome to How to Citizen with Baritune Day, a 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 1: podcast that reimagine citizen as a verb, not a legal status. 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:11,639 Speaker 1: This season is all about tech and how it can 4 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: bring us together instead of tearing us apart. We're bringing 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: you the people using technology for so much more than 6 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: revenue and user growth. They're using it to help us citizen. 7 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: It's October and a group of thirty or so revolutionaries 8 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 1: in Buenos Aires, Argentina are poised to infiltrate a seemingly 9 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: impenetrable fortress the government. And as they approached the palace 10 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: of the Argentine National Congress, they told with them the 11 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: symbol of their movement, a twenty foot tall wooden Trojan horse. 12 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: M yeah, a Trojan horse like from Greek mythology. And 13 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: if you need a little refresher on that story, it 14 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: goes like this. During the Trojan War, the Greek's built 15 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: this giant Trojan horse as a gift to the Trojans. 16 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: Little did the Trojans know that the Greek warriors were 17 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: actually hiding inside the horse. When the coast was clear, 18 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: the Greeks emerged and totally sacked the city. Now, these 19 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: Argentine citizens they've got the same plan to sneak into 20 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: Congress and disturb the political order from the inside. They 21 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: are Partio de laded or in English, the net Party, 22 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: as in the Internet. There are a new political party 23 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: in Argentina tackling one of democracy's biggest problems. Our democracy 24 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: has remained the same for the past two hundred years. 25 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: We're twenty century citizens interacting with nineteenth central institutions. Today 26 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 1: we can speak for ourselves in almost every aspect of life, 27 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: but we can only tell our governments what we want 28 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,519 Speaker 1: once every few years, and in between elections we must 29 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: remain silent. Partito de laded is running for seats in 30 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: Congress and they have a very different platform. They created 31 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: an app called democracy Os where citizens could cast their 32 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: own votes on legislation. If elected, the Partio de Larded 33 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: representative would vote according to how citizens have voted on 34 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: the app. The candidates are themselves the trojan horse. If 35 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: they get into Congress, they would sneak every voice on 36 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 1: democracy Os into Congress with them. Citizens wouldn't have to 37 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: wait for years to speak, they'd have a say on 38 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: every piece of legislation. As the party pulls this trojan 39 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: horse through the streets. Children run alongside the procession. An 40 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: excited crowd gathers when it comes to a stop at 41 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: the doors of Congress. The party chance when you can 42 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: network awaken who it was very powerful in the crowd 43 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: is pa Mancini, one of the leaders of Partito de 44 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: lad It's hard to make change happen, but we must 45 00:03:55,640 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: move from protest to construction. Her word that October would 46 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: be just the beginning of a lifelong pursuit to empower 47 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: citizen voices. Since then, Pia has put her imagination to 48 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: work building technologies that help people organize around the causes 49 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 1: that matter to them. And now eight years later, she 50 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: isn't just trying to rewire broken systems from the inside, 51 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: She's making whole new systems entirely. Pia has developed this 52 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: platform called Open Collective, and with it she's putting economic 53 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: power in the hands of communities all across the globe. 54 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 1: So how does somebody go from protesting at Congress's doorstep 55 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: to building a new economic infrastructure and whatever happened to 56 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 1: Partido de Laded. Pia Mancini tells us her story after 57 00:04:52,880 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 1: the break. Yeah, hello, so nice to see It's so 58 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: nice to see you tube A welcome. Thank you. So 59 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 1: let's start with the basics. Can you introduce yourself and 60 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: what you do. I'm PM and Chinni and I'm co 61 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: founder and CEO of Open Collective and i am the 62 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 1: mother of almost six year old who studied elementary yesterday. 63 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: So it's very exciting. Are you excited about the school? 64 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 1: I am excited. The amount of like relief and exhaustion 65 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: in your voice, I believe you are exactly what is 66 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: open collective. Open Collective at the core is an open 67 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: finances are transparent finances platform that lets you fundraise and 68 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: spend money for your community and full transparency and repair 69 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: that with a global network of legal entities. That what 70 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: they do is they hold the money for those communities 71 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: and they deal with reporting and taxes and government so 72 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 1: communities can focus on what they do and not focus 73 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: on talking to accountants and lawyers. You say this is 74 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: for communities. Who is Open Collective for more practically? Can 75 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: you get specific? Yes? So we are mostly working with 76 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: two large ecosystems, the open source ecosystem and the solidarity economy. 77 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: So we are helping both open source projects across the 78 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: world to fundraise like as an open source software projects. Yeah, absolutely, 79 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: So open source communities open source software projects are in 80 00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: general faults around the world who are coming to other 81 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: using a platform like gi hub for example, to create software. 82 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: Companies and users want to support these open source projects. 83 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: They want to give them funding so the maintainers can 84 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: keep working on them because you know, otherwise it's volunteer time. 85 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: But they don't have word to send the money. So 86 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: imagine Google trying to send five thou dollars to a 87 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:27,119 Speaker 1: papal account in Ukraine that will get flagged real quick, 88 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: real quick. So it's easier for Google to send funding 89 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: to the open Source Collective, which is one of the 90 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: non for profits we created. We have a network of 91 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: three hundred non for profits around the world and we 92 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: give fiscal sponsorship and you know, an umbrella organization to 93 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: the open source projects. We currently have three thousand projects, 94 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: three thousand open source projects. Yeah and yeah, okay, this 95 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: is a good moment for me to just established in 96 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: your definition in terms what is open source? Yeah, so 97 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: open source essentialist software where you can see how being made, 98 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: all the lines that constitute its code, and you can 99 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: copy and using whichever way you want. You can grab 100 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: a part of it, you can rehash it. It's like 101 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: a mash up. This is different from what it's called 102 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: proprietary software. That is software that is locked by the developer. Right, 103 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: So Microsoft makes proprietary software because they don't want anyone 104 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: to compete, to use their technology and compete. So proprietary 105 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: software is almost like having a patent on your technology. 106 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: And open sources just free, open technology for anyone to use. 107 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: Open source enabled the startup revolution. Mm hmm. So you 108 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 1: mentioned open source projects. What's the other type of community 109 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: that you're supporting. Yeah, the solidarity economy totally appurely. Look, 110 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: it's mutual aid groups, land trusts, giving circles, social move 111 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: men's right, covid hit. A lot of people pulled money 112 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: together to support each other. They wanted to support their 113 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 1: neighbors by food for those who could make it. All 114 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: of those mutually groups groups are coming together to support 115 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 1: each other. Where who's going to receive the money? Are we? 116 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: You know, it's a group of neighbors who's gonna put 117 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: their own personal bank account. It's kind of weird, rights awkward, 118 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: and it's also it might have implications for your tax reporting. 119 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: And so we give these communities the open collective platform 120 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 1: plus a five C three kind of as a service. Yeah, 121 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: so they can be up and running, receiving money without 122 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: tax the actual received for their donors in like a day. 123 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: So we are kind of radical administrators, right, we kind 124 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: of which usually doesn't go together. Radical and administrative are 125 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: very rarely said. I know, I know. We abstract the difficulty, 126 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: the awful boring bits of having to raise and manage money, 127 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: because we think it's very unfair that if you want 128 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: to just pull money together, or if you just want 129 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: to try an idea, or if you don't know yet 130 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 1: what you want to be in the world. Maybe you 131 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: want to be a club, Maybe do you want to 132 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: be a non for profit. Maybe you're just testing an idea. 133 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: Why should you pay up front the costs of having 134 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: equity or having hierarchical structures that then it's very difficult 135 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: to transition out of like why why are we doing this? 136 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: And so the kind of metaphor that we use we 137 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 1: say that communities are circles in a world that is 138 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: made for triangles. Communities are circles in a world made 139 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: for triangles. Yeah, so we kind of need to, you know, 140 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: twist a little bit so we can fit into what 141 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: the system understands is a legal entity. Here's the question 142 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: of why open. What's the open part all about? Everything 143 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: is transparent by design, so you know at a glance 144 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: who gave money to a community and how that community 145 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:05,319 Speaker 1: spending the money. Philosophically, I don't think that transparency generates 146 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: trust per se, because you know, because if everything is transparent, 147 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: what's there to trust? Right? You just see it, right, 148 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: Like trust kind of gets generated when you accept that 149 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: someone is doing something without you having to see that necessarily. 150 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: But transparency helps a lot in situations where trust takes 151 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: a lot of time to build. Give me an example 152 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: of a collective that has benefited from this open transparent funding, 153 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: legal administrative support. One of the first collectives that really 154 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: showed the quick impact that we could have was called 155 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: Meals of Gratitude. Meals of Gratitude Okay, late February or 156 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: March last years, so very very early on, they realized 157 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 1: that they needed to feed first responders in the pandemic, 158 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: and so they were like scrambling to you know, figure 159 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 1: out how to buy all of these meals for folks 160 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: working around the clock in hospitals. And it went from 161 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: zero to a gazillion in like three days. Suddenly we 162 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: were like pushing I don't know how many thousand meals 163 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: a day, and I'm like, I'm so grateful that we're 164 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: able to do this. Another one, more recent is we 165 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: were able to get to families of open source developers 166 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: from Afghanistan out of Afghanistan. So open source is not 167 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 1: something that Taliban understand. You didn't see that coming. I 168 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: just open source is not something to Taliban understand. I mean, 169 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: that's that's beautiful. Continue so, but I mean it's very 170 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,839 Speaker 1: risky for developers working in open source because they're collaborating 171 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: with you know, foreign powers or whatever the narrative is. Yeah, 172 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: and it could be the CIA exactly. They're just doing 173 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: code on something in English. And this is terrifying. And 174 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: so we needed to very quickly raise money to get 175 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: these two families out and we spent up a collective 176 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: and in nothing we had, you know, raise enough money 177 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: to get both families off to Pakistan. Wow, it feels 178 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: very disruptive. Pierre M Look, I have to say that 179 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: it is. It's it's been amazing, especially for me last 180 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: year personally, to see all of these different groups just 181 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: coming together, and we were able to deploy millions of 182 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: dollars two communities across the United States and across the 183 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: world because we were like already set up for this, 184 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: and the growth last year has been surprising. Our goal 185 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: right now is finding ways of moving money from the 186 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: center to the fringes. I think it's absolutely unfair that 187 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:01,719 Speaker 1: only corporations, whether for of you no nonprofit, but corporations 188 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: are incorporated in a territory toy. You need to be 189 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: in a territory, which is insane. They have hierarchical structures 190 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: or or vertical triangles. Triangles, only triangles can receive money. 191 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: That's unfair. Because the hard work that communities are doing 192 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: to improve the state of the world, it's incredible. We 193 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: have more and more open source projects that are employing 194 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: or contracting their maintainers filter and so we are creating jobs. 195 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: This is putting the community as a new economic unit, 196 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: the community as a human you know, an economic unit 197 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: that is able to hire, to raise money, to spend 198 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: to do everything that we give for granted that corporations 199 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: can do without having to become something that they're not. 200 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: Where did all this come from here? How did you 201 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: come up with the idea for open Collective. So it 202 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: wasn't my own idea. Probably a collective. There you go, 203 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: you get it, you get it. My co founder, Savior, 204 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:14,119 Speaker 1: and both had experience where we went through this particular 205 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: pain of needing to put money to do what we 206 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: wanted to do and not being able to do it 207 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: because of bureaucratic hurdles. We are coming from very different contexts, 208 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: like my experience was in politics, his experience was in 209 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: the startup movement in Belgium, mine in Argentina. Were like, 210 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: if the two of us are going through the same 211 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: there must be other people going through this, and so 212 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: we started thinking about how to solve this problem and 213 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: Open Collective was born in two How did you get 214 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: into politics in the first place? Goodness, My family was 215 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: always very let's say, argumentative. I can't see that at all. 216 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: How did that show work? That at the dinner table? 217 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: Was that on the way to school? What does it mean? Oh? 218 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: My god? The dinner table? The dinner table and then 219 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: arguments in the morning for who got to read the 220 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: newspaper first, and one section of the newspaper and then 221 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: you know, arguing about what we were reading. And my 222 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: dad and I. We were very similar in a lot 223 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: of ways, and then we thought politically very differently, so, 224 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: you know, and so I grew up in an environment 225 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: where politics was very much part of our lives, and 226 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: I studied political science because I was interested in power dynamics, 227 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: and I was interested, like maybe because of my father. 228 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: I hadn't thought about that. Having a second, it's okay, 229 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: if you want to lay back on a couch, take 230 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: some deeper, we can go there. Breakthrough happening, And and 231 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: then there was a bit of of a moment where 232 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: something kind of clicked. I was campaign managing for a 233 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: friend of mine who then became mayor of this craft 234 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: quite loud, large city outside of Monte Sides. And I 235 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: don't know, this was maybe twenty ten something like that. July, 236 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 1: which is winter in Argentina and it gets pretty cold, 237 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: and so we were visiting a neighborhood talking to folks 238 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 1: and we went into this barn and it was stuck 239 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: up to the ceiling with matrices and construction materials and 240 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 1: things like that. And don't, like, great, are we gonna 241 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 1: build things or housing for folks in need here in 242 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 1: the area? What's the plan? How are you doing this? 243 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: I was so excited, and he looks at me like 244 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:34,880 Speaker 1: literally like if I was from another planet. He looks 245 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: at me, He's like, are you crazy, PI, elections are 246 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: next year. This are staying here, And I'm like, wait, 247 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: what are we keeping this until elections because that's what 248 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: we used to get votes? And then it just clicked 249 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: and it wasn't that my friend was corrupted. It was 250 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:56,399 Speaker 1: just that the system is what it is. And I'm like, 251 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: what am I doing here trying to get someone elected 252 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: to be mayor of a city where this is going 253 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: to still happen because the system is not going to change. 254 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: It's just gonna eat him up and chew him out 255 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: when they're done. And so at the same time, I 256 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: run into this absolutely crazy bunch of people doing a 257 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 1: different type of political party called the net Party and 258 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: Party lad. So that's how I got more into politics. Yes, 259 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: and how was that approach different from everything you just 260 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: described as not ideal? So alert was a hack. Essentially, 261 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: we wanted to influence the way decisions are made in politics, 262 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: and so we created democracys. Hold up, wait a minute, 263 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: I'm walking this path with you, and I'm like, okay, 264 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: first year that political system. Got it, join a new 265 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: political party. Got it. So then we started democracy OS. 266 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: What is this democracy operating system? Yeah, so please explain, okay, 267 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 1: got it. So democracy OS is a platform for citizens 268 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: to read on legislation that was translated from a political 269 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: and legal jargon that no one understands, you know, because 270 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 1: that's that's the hack of the lawyers. You make a 271 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 1: human readable version of legislation. Yes, you got it, and 272 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 1: so um so we did that, and then it was 273 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: a platform for citizens to vote how they would like 274 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: their representatives to vote. Right, And if they felt they 275 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 1: couldn't vote themselves or something because they didn't have time, 276 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: they didn't want, they didn't understand, you know, they knew 277 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: someone else who might know better whatever, they could delegate 278 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: that vote on this other person. Right. So, if there's 279 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: a healthcare piece of legislation, and you know folks that 280 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,679 Speaker 1: work in the healthcare system, but they will never access 281 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: the lobby power to influence legislation because they are healthcare workers. 282 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: But you trust them, you know that you would like 283 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: them to vote for you, so you could delegate your 284 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: vote on them. And that makes sense. I mean, there 285 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:19,239 Speaker 1: are people who I use right now informally right, you 286 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: know a lot more about this, tell me how I 287 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: should vote? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So there's a technology that 288 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: helps citizens weigh in and even delegate their authority on 289 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: certain topics based on the expertise and their networks. Yeah, 290 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: that's that's that's exactly right. And so we created this 291 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 1: and we were like, it would be great if government, 292 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: you know, Congress, use this. And so we were like, hey, Congress, 293 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 1: do you want this? And they're like, no, thank you, 294 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 1: go play outside. Surprise surprise exactly, and the like that's 295 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: the door, you know, and we're like, okay, great, So 296 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: how on earth do we become valid stakeholders in this 297 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,120 Speaker 1: conversation our own ears? Do we get them to pay attention? 298 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: And so we're like, okay, let's do what they do. 299 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: Let's build a political party. But we run for elections 300 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: with this idea that if we got a seat in Congress, 301 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: we would only vote according to the decision made on democracys. Ah. 302 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,959 Speaker 1: So that was a hack stakes, sir high. I mean, 303 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: I've heard of campaign promises, but that's a different level 304 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 1: of commitment. Yeah. For the political establishment in the you know, 305 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,959 Speaker 1: Bueno scilence, it was like, wait, what you're gonna do 306 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 1: what And did you end up getting a seat? No, 307 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: we missed that seat for not a lot. It was 308 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: very close. We pushed the bars so far of what 309 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: was perceived as doable. You know, we almost made it. 310 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: And we're like a crazy band of folks with software 311 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:04,679 Speaker 1: saying like, we're not gonna about what we think, We're 312 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 1: gonna about what people decided on this platform. And then 313 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: it was after the campaign, I think one of the volunteers, 314 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: the developers working on the Democracy OS platform centers and links, 315 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: thaying like, have you faults seen this? It was democracy 316 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:27,439 Speaker 1: is translated to French used in Arabic to discuss the 317 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: constitution in Tunisia, and we had no idea what was 318 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: going on. The developers, they're looked for online voting, they 319 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: run into democracy s. They did their own copy of 320 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: Democracy o S and they were using it themselves to 321 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 1: discuss the Tunisian constitution. That for me was like mind blowing. 322 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: It felt like there was a emergent need because if 323 00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: something was being used at the same time in monoside 324 00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:03,439 Speaker 1: is in Tunisia for the same purposes, the world needed 325 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: this and the world was ready to use this, and 326 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: I became kind of focused on using democracy or as 327 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: in different contexts, or we use it for in Mexico 328 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:15,679 Speaker 1: and the City of Mexico, for the constitution in the 329 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 1: center of Mexico, for like a piece of legislation in 330 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: Sri Lanka with the candidate in Colombia for the referendum. 331 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: The tools that we're putting out there were being picked 332 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: up by the same type of groups in different languages, 333 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: different purposes, different places. At one point, democracy was translated 334 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: into thirty different languages, and we didn't do them. And 335 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: so I think that that's what really bulls me from 336 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: open source and technologies. This ability of creating tools that 337 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: you don't control and that you just released into the 338 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: world and people use for me is it's beautiful. Yeah, 339 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: we'll be right back. Where in your path did technology 340 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: become a tool you would use for all of the 341 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:24,479 Speaker 1: system's power political thinking, Well, we felt that technology was 342 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: the missing piece and how citizens could have agency. We 343 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: felt that technology was what made evident that the system 344 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 1: was unbelievably closed. Because it's not that they didn't have 345 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 1: the tools to open up, they just didn't want to 346 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,719 Speaker 1: do it. They chose to hold on to the status 347 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: School up because they want to stay in power. Mm hmm. 348 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 1: What did this experience do broadly, I mean the experience 349 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: of being rejected by the systems of power. You're trying 350 00:24:55,560 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: to change the experience of finding power through of the people, 351 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: through technology, through community organizing. What did that experience due 352 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: to your understanding of how power works. I think that 353 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: we are very naive and we thought that you could 354 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: change a system from within. We thought that if we 355 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: could get there with the right tools and the right 356 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 1: people and the right hacks, systems could be incrementally rewired 357 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,439 Speaker 1: until they worked better. And I guess what we missed was, 358 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, power wants to stay 359 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: in power, right, the start of school is never going 360 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: to devolve power because they want to remain being the 361 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: start of school. So there's all of these like awful 362 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 1: ego game that happens while they're like, Oh, you're so amazing, 363 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: you're doing great things. Participate to democracy, come with us, 364 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: and there they change a little bit for everything to 365 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 1: remain the same. And I think we hit a wall there. 366 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: We were missing how conservative power is, even if they 367 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 1: think progressive, or even if they say they're progressive, because 368 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: it's just the system will do anything that the system 369 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 1: can to self perpetuate, and we didn't realize that. So 370 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 1: if you cannot transform the current system, how do you 371 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,199 Speaker 1: build an alternative that is appealing enough that you crystallize 372 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: it in a way that inspires people. You build bridges 373 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: to bring faults over? Right, what tools do you have? 374 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: What sund boxes to play around with? New systems can 375 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: you build? Because you need to experiment and how do 376 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: you live through that? Right? Like, I'm very American. It's 377 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: the country I've known the most. That's the country I've 378 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: been in my whole life, and many of my ancestors 379 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 1: going back many generations. But I sometimes get attached to 380 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 1: this idea of a democratic experiment. It's a sandbox, you know, 381 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: it's everything you just described. Um, So trying things, experimenting 382 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 1: is absolutely ingrained in the DNA of the process, you know, 383 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 1: the democracy more of a process in product anyway. Yeah, 384 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: you know, one of the main things when we were 385 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: campaigning for the net Party that we got from people 386 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,439 Speaker 1: was like, what am I going to decide? This fear 387 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: that we have in us that we can't really make 388 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: decisions because we don't know, you know, because only those 389 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: in power, no or whatever. We've spent such a long history, 390 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 1: thousands of you being told that we couldn't be part 391 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: of this decision making process, that we've inherited this notion 392 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: that we can't participate, and now we believe it right. 393 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 1: We believe that we're not able to and so we 394 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: need to live through decision making. We need to lead 395 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 1: through building new institutions. We need to experience that to learn. 396 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 1: There's there's no teaching how to decide and fail, and 397 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: so what some boxes can we build so we are 398 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: able to fail in our experimentation with new forms of 399 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: political institutions, new forms of democratic arrangements. So a lot 400 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:01,719 Speaker 1: of my time shifted towards thinking alternative systems right and 401 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: what alternative systems need. And I kind of focus very 402 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: strongly on open collective because it's an alternative path of 403 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: having economic power and building around the territory. If you're 404 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: a global network of climate activists and you don't know 405 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 1: where you need to incorporate, we got you. It's fine, 406 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: don't worry. You don't need the territory, We'll do that 407 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: for you. And so open Collective has that kind of 408 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,479 Speaker 1: ingrained in it right of like building outside nation states. 409 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: I guess one of the things that I learned is like, 410 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: if you can't beat them, make them absolute. If you 411 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: can't beat them, make them absolute. Yeah, you can't beat 412 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: the nation state. You cannot, right, So stop trying. Build 413 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: around it until it becomes obsolute, build around it until 414 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: it collapses, until decades on something different. It's gonna happen, 415 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: it's gonna evolve into something else, or it's going to 416 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: decay into something. But the nation states weren't always here 417 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: and they're not going to be here always, right. There 418 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: a social construct, and so I very tired of being 419 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: forced to think of the territory and the nation state 420 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: as the vector that organizes power. So a lot of 421 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: the work that I do has to do with how 422 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: we abstract that layer out. Mm hmm. So so here's 423 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: an here's another question for you. The way we practice 424 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: technology and the way we practice democracy. What is that 425 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: relationship historically and where do you see it going? It's 426 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: very interesting. So technology used to be you know, main frames, 427 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: a prabatory, and I guess it became open and collaborative 428 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: and it doesn't have borders, and the Internet really really 429 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: scaled that to a whole new level, and so democracy 430 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: is being more in the open, democracy is being more 431 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: on a global layer like the Internet is means that 432 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: the planet becomes like a new jurisdiction. We all come 433 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: together as peers that share the commons. That is a planet, 434 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: and it doesn't matter where on Earth you are born, 435 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: you have agency over certain decisions that impact all of 436 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: us globally. So the main example of that are the 437 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: easy one is climate change. Right, Why on earth are 438 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 1: we letting nation states have any say on climate change 439 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: when they're really the ones who should decide our citizens 440 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: that are coming together as a global network because there 441 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: is no such thing as a nation for climate change, 442 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter, right, there are no borders are meaningless, 443 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: and we now have that parallel between the Internet creating 444 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: this global network and the global democratic institutions that we 445 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: can create on top of that. Now, owners ship is 446 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: not trivial here, right, as much as we try to 447 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: forget about it and denied they are you know, the 448 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: cables under water are controlled by someone the Internet infrastructure. 449 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: So I think technology still needs to decentralize a heck 450 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: of a lot more to be able to be the 451 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: truly support system that a global democracy needs. Yeah, earlier 452 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 1: you talked about the fear many of us have when 453 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: it comes to exercising our own power. Why should I 454 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: get to decide? I don't know enough, I'm not expert enough. 455 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: What do you have to say to people who hear 456 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 1: this conversation and are not excited but are terrified. I 457 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 1: think we've accepted this idea that we can't participate because 458 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: we've never done it. And I am not saying it's 459 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,959 Speaker 1: gonna work well. Every time we're likely to make that decision, 460 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 1: they can't be worse decisitions, and once the governments are 461 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: making it's a low low bar. But even then, I 462 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: think we should start small. And I think that cities 463 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: are very powerful, are really great grounds or sundboxes for 464 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 1: us to learn how to citizen. I truly believe most 465 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: people are descent and are good people, right, I honestly 466 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 1: believe that I think the vast majority of humanity are 467 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: just good people. We're mostly you know, living in a 468 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 1: system that benefits are elevates. You know, they're not so 469 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: good people. But at the end of the day, most 470 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: people I think are good and they will do the 471 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: decent thing when it comes down to it, and I've 472 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: seen it happened over and over and over, and so 473 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: I think we need to start building paths to make 474 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: real decisions. And participatory budgeting is a really good like 475 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: tool that we can use because it's an inexpensive way 476 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: to learning how to have agency and see what happens 477 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: to you. And if you know, deciding it's not your thing, 478 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: will find someone else that I can decide for you 479 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 1: and that you trust enough. But it's your choice. It's 480 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: your choice. I love that you know. P You mentioned 481 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: participatory budgeting, and I know some people don't know what 482 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: that is. Basically this process where community members decide how 483 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 1: to spend part of a public budget, giving them power 484 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: over actual money. And I know there's thousands of cities 485 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: around the world, including my city in l A that 486 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: if used this to decide budgets on all kinds of things, 487 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: it's really beautiful. What other types of infrastructure do you 488 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: think we need? Your obviously very invested in open collective 489 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: around legal financial administratives and a radical administrative what other 490 00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: pieces of the puzzle and messing. I guess what we're 491 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: missing is a space where we can large number of 492 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 1: people like in the millions, right, can come together from 493 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 1: different countries around the world and decide on something. There 494 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 1: was a really cool project that someone was trying to 495 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: fund raise for an organized that it was gonna pull 496 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 1: something like a billion dollars and they were going to 497 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 1: try to get I think three hundred million young people 498 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,280 Speaker 1: from around the world to vote on a participatory budgeting 499 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: process for that billion dollars. And I think that the 500 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,839 Speaker 1: money and the participatory budgeting aspect was the least interesting one. 501 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: The most interesting one was building a network of three 502 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: hundred million young people that have collaborated at scale outside 503 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: a nation state. I think networks changed the world. And 504 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,360 Speaker 1: once you have that network and it's formed, you have 505 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: that global social fabric you can build things with that 506 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: that is going to bring about so much change into 507 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: the world. So we need to build this global social tissue. 508 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: You're you're ridiculous, and I mean that in the most 509 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:19,319 Speaker 1: complimentary way possible. Pia, you have given me so many 510 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: more reasons to be optimistic. Thank you for pushing our 511 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 1: thoughts to new places, thinking literally outside of our borders, 512 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,479 Speaker 1: threatening some powers that be and uh and being fun 513 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: in the process. Really appreciate you. Thank you, thank you, 514 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me and for listening. One thing 515 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: I admire so much about Pia is her courage to 516 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:56,359 Speaker 1: just try. Partido de laded didn't win the election, and 517 00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: that's okay. The goal was just to try. They wanted 518 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,399 Speaker 1: to see how far they could go, how far they 519 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: could push our perception of what's even possible, and in 520 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:12,359 Speaker 1: that attempt they succeeded. Other folks around the world took 521 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: democracy os and they ran with it, mashing it up 522 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,840 Speaker 1: for their own democratic experiments, pushing the bar even further. 523 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 1: And they were able to do that because Pia and 524 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: her friends took the first step. Even though it may 525 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: not always seem like it, there's no lack of beautiful, 526 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: imaginative good intention people in this world. Some might want 527 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,320 Speaker 1: to help their neighbors, Some might want to challenge the 528 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,400 Speaker 1: political establishment with their own trojan horses, literal and metaphorical. 529 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 1: Whatever it is that matters to you, it's worth trying. 530 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: Pia is a powerful reminder that we can use tech 531 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: to unlock more than money. We can use it to 532 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,479 Speaker 1: do all the things we believe. Citizening means to show 533 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,879 Speaker 1: up and participate, to invest in relationships. I mean, that's 534 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: happening beyond the boundaries of the nation state thanks to 535 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:13,719 Speaker 1: technology to understand power. That's what creating a new economic 536 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,840 Speaker 1: model is all about, and all to support the collective 537 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 1: and open collective. It's not too late to make a difference. 538 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,799 Speaker 1: We can try from within the current system. But if 539 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: that fails, we can build something new. As Pia said, 540 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: if you can't beat them, make them obsolete. Next week 541 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 1: we go to Taiwan where a group of civic hackers 542 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: succeeded in infiltrating the government and they change the system 543 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 1: entirely from the inside out. We have this digital public 544 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: infrastructure that functions the same as the town hall so 545 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,800 Speaker 1: that they're not forced to deliberate about important civic topics 546 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: in the digital equivalent of Nike ups like Facebook. Next time, 547 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 1: Audrey toime H. Pia got me so fired up. I 548 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: hope she did the same for you, because it's time 549 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 1: for some action. Let's start nice and easy with something 550 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,360 Speaker 1: you can all do by yourself, no special equipment necessary. 551 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 1: I want you to think about when you feel most 552 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,959 Speaker 1: positive or optimistic in your week, what are you doing, 553 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 1: Who are you around, what media are you consuming? Now 554 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,400 Speaker 1: work backwards from that, do more of those things that 555 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 1: make you feel good. I promise. I'm not trying to 556 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 1: be a life coach here. I just think the world 557 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,360 Speaker 1: needs more optimists for us to reach our collective potential. 558 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 1: And it's hard to citizen when you're only cynical, you're 559 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,840 Speaker 1: something else. I want you to try visit open collective 560 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 1: dot com just understand it more. I think of it 561 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,880 Speaker 1: as a combination of Patreon meets Kickstarter meets easy to 562 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,839 Speaker 1: use accounting software watch ps ted talk is called how 563 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 1: to Upgrade Democracy for the Internet Era and learn more 564 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 1: about her beliefs and journey. Then think about a local 565 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,640 Speaker 1: project or informal group, maybe a mutual aid society that 566 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:33,280 Speaker 1: could benefit from Open Collective and tell them about it. Finally, 567 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 1: and then we're getting real warmed up here. I want 568 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 1: you to consider supporting an open source project of your 569 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 1: own while moving away from private mega malls like Facebook. 570 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 1: Now that doesn't mean you have to go start a 571 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 1: software company. It just means start using something like the 572 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,560 Speaker 1: Signal app instead of Facebook. That's an open source, encrypted, 573 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 1: nonprofit messaging platform which was initially launched by the Forward Foundation. 574 00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:59,959 Speaker 1: And if you use open source to build your produc 575 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,840 Speaker 1: up that's making you money, then give back to the 576 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 1: open source community. Just because this open source doesn't mean 577 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 1: it's free. It was paid for by somebody's time. You 578 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 1: know where you can find some great open source projects 579 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:16,760 Speaker 1: to support over at open Collective, dot com, Boom Full Circle. 580 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: Speaking of dot com, We've got our own with links 581 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,240 Speaker 1: to all these actions and more at how do citizen 582 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 1: dot com? Follow us on Instagram? At how do Citizen 583 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,719 Speaker 1: tag us in your post about supporting a collective? Be 584 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 1: a circle in a world dominated by triumphs? How do 585 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 1: Citizen with barrettun Day is a production of I Heart 586 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 1: Radio Podcasts and dust Light Productions. Our executive producers are Me, 587 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: barrettun Day, Thurston, Elizabeth Stewart, and Misha Yusaf. Our senior 588 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: producer is Tamika Adams, Our producer is Ali Kilts, and 589 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 1: our assistant producer is Sam Paulson. Stephanie Cohne is our editor, 590 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 1: Valentino Rivera is our senior engineer, and Matthew Laie as 591 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,959 Speaker 1: our apprentice. Original music by Andrew Eapen, with additional music 592 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,719 Speaker 1: for season three by Andrew Clawson. Original composition for the 593 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 1: Trojan Horse story by Sam Paulson. This episode was produced 594 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 1: and sound designed by Sam Paulson, with additional production help 595 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 1: from Darwin Knicks. Special thanks to Joel Smith from I 596 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Rachel Garcia at dust Light Productions. Okay, 597 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,520 Speaker 1: now for the real question for you, which which crypto 598 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 1: should I be getting into