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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 2: is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part three

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Speaker 3: in our series on Ninja. Now, if you haven't heard

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Speaker 3: the first two parts of this series, this is a

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Speaker 3: case where you really should go back and listen to

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Speaker 3: those before you listen to today's episode, because we lay

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Speaker 3: a lot of groundwork, especially about the tricky historical questions

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Speaker 3: about the sort of accuracy of a lot of the

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Speaker 3: received knowledge about the ninja. And so if you are

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Speaker 3: wondering about like how the ninja fit into real history

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Speaker 3: versus pop culture and then sort of subsequent lore and legend,

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Speaker 3: we talk more about that in the previous episodes. Today

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Speaker 3: we're going to be focusing more on just some of

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Speaker 3: the great bits of tech mixture and the anecdotes from

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Speaker 3: that historical lore and legend, the stories of individual ninjas,

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Speaker 3: the stories of the stories of tools and techniques and

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Speaker 3: equipment and so forth.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you basically can think of it this way.

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Speaker 2: The ninja existed, true statement, the ninja are a myth

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Speaker 2: and never existed. True statement depends on how you tease

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Speaker 2: it apart, you know, and likewise a lot of this too,

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Speaker 2: Like we'll get into specific examples of ninja tools or weapons,

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Speaker 2: and you can say this never existed, and then you

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Speaker 2: can also say, but I can buy one at the

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Speaker 2: mall today, and so it's like, well it exists now, right,

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Speaker 2: So it's it gets complicated.

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Speaker 3: This is a great time, I think, to discuss some

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Speaker 3: of the various ninjutsu manuals that were published beginning in

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Speaker 3: the Edo period, beginning under the Tokugawa Shogunate, that are

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Speaker 3: the source of a lot of the ninja lore that

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Speaker 3: we have today. So you can think about sort of

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Speaker 3: like multiple stages of development of the ninja lore over

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Speaker 3: the centuries. This is going way back. It's questionable whether

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Speaker 3: some of the things reported in these manuals were actually

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Speaker 3: used in the earlier periods, But these seventeenth eighteenth century

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Speaker 3: texts have lots of great stuff in them that I

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Speaker 3: think later gets picked up by authors, say in the

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Speaker 3: twentieth century, and reprocessed and turned into the pop culture

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Speaker 3: idea of the ninja. So there are multiple ninjitsu manuals,

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Speaker 3: and I'm just going to list some common characteristics of them.

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Speaker 3: So they will teach techniques of espionage, stealth, and intelligence gathering,

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Speaker 3: including everything from how to infiltrate a building using different

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Speaker 3: kinds of ladders to how to gag a prisoner. So

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Speaker 3: they're full of descriptions of techniques. They pass along practical

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Speaker 3: knowledge about real subjects, such as pharmacology like using herbs

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Speaker 3: to achieve an effect in the body, and how to

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Speaker 3: use gunpowders, so there is some amount of chemistry knowledge,

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Speaker 3: at least as it was understood in the seventeenth century.

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Speaker 3: In some of these books, they describe and illustrate tools

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Speaker 3: and equipment such as cow drops. You know, these spiked

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Speaker 3: spiked objects that would be used. You know, you'd throw

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Speaker 3: them on the ground to slow the advance of an

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Speaker 3: enemy or to deny them access to an area.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, makabishi, I believe, is the term for these. And

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Speaker 2: these are interesting on their own terms because if you've

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Speaker 2: played Dungeons and Dragons, you may have used these. You know,

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Speaker 2: these are pretty common way to slow down an enemy.

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Speaker 2: But apparently when you get into the history of their

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Speaker 2: use in shnobi activities, like some examples of them may

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Speaker 2: have been essentially organic or found items like essentially like

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Speaker 2: throwing nuts, you know, or today's version would be like

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Speaker 2: spreading legos all over the floor. That's not quite like

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Speaker 2: a nature fact or a found item, but you know,

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Speaker 2: you get the idea and then that you could progress

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Speaker 2: from them into potentially like metal objects that are spiked

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Speaker 2: and so forth. And speaking of those ladders, yes, ladders

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Speaker 2: are absolutely a tool of the ninja. And if you

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Speaker 2: are in the Dungeons and Dragons campaign and you're playing

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Speaker 2: a rogue, go ahead and equip that ladder, bring that

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Speaker 2: ladder with you, and dare your dungeon master to make

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Speaker 2: you roll a dexterity check whilst climbing it. Ladders are great,

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Speaker 2: trust the ninja on this.

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Speaker 3: My current rogue has a real affinity for climbing. He's

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Speaker 3: got the I don't know it's level three or level

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Speaker 3: four or wherever it is. You get to pick one

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Speaker 3: of the feats, and he's got second story work where

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Speaker 3: you know, you can climb at the same rate you

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Speaker 3: can you can run.

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Speaker 2: That's great. Yeah, but I feel like we've been kind

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Speaker 2: of just like a modern Ninja batmanification of our understanding

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Speaker 2: of what rogues should have. Batman never carried a ladder

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Speaker 2: but he probably should have carried a ladder. I think

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Speaker 2: that would be great.

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Speaker 3: The bat ladder, I mean, the rope ladder, will you

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Speaker 3: gets you a lot of places. I guess batman doesn't

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Speaker 3: need a ladder because he has the unrealistic, the back

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Speaker 3: claw thing that you can just shoot and will zip

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Speaker 3: him up anywhere.

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Speaker 2: Absolute trust in the masonry the buildings he's interacting with.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but anyway, all the stuff I've mentioned so far,

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Speaker 3: that's the stuff you would imagine a ninjitsu manual to include. Right,

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Speaker 3: you know, techniques about stealth tools. You could use, knowledge

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Speaker 3: about pharmacology and gunpowder and things like that. But there

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Speaker 3: are also things you might expect less. These manuals often

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Speaker 3: emphasize spiritual and philosophical elements of the shnobi lifestyle, like

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Speaker 3: some during the Edo period promote Confucianism with a strong

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Speaker 3: emphasis on loyalty, which of course was favored by the

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Speaker 3: Tokugawa shoguns. They sometimes also include moral discourses that serve

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Speaker 3: as justification for shnobi activities, like it's okay to use

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Speaker 3: lies and deception and trickery because they will help you win.

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Speaker 3: They're what you have to do to win, and what's

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Speaker 3: ultimately right is to be loyal to your masters and

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Speaker 3: to help win in the conflict. And so so you know,

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Speaker 3: you got to deliver that intelligence. It doesn't matter if

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Speaker 3: you have to lie to do it. They sometimes also

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Speaker 3: include more esoteric guidance, like the use of astrology or divination.

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Speaker 3: They are often falsely attributed to a great hero or

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Speaker 3: legend from history. They do not depict shnobi in black

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Speaker 3: costumes and masks. They are not generally concerned with assassination,

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Speaker 3: nor do they usually describe hand to hand combat or

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Speaker 3: sword fighting techniques, as would come to be the calling

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Speaker 3: card of Ninja in later movies. Once again, they are

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Speaker 3: most often concerned with intelligence gathering, psychological warfare, and sabotage.

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Speaker 3: And to this point, one of the manuals I'll mention

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Speaker 3: in a minute actually specifies that your shinobi your spies

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Speaker 3: should be selected based on intelligence and not physical strength,

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Speaker 3: because these people were not primarily thought of as fighters,

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Speaker 3: but as tricksters and observers gatherers of information.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, when you think about it, like your shnobi,

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Speaker 2: are they going to be able to throw down with

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Speaker 2: a samurai, an armed samurai like you know, one to

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Speaker 2: one in some sort of a battle. I think there's

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Speaker 2: a strong case to be made. No, the trickery if that,

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Speaker 2: if that's sort of violent encounter where to occur, the

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Speaker 2: trickery is going to make the difference, not the martial arts.

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Speaker 2: I'm guessing that's right.

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Speaker 3: As we talked about in the last episode, the idea

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Speaker 3: of shanoby as instigators of daring individual violence and hand

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Speaker 3: to hand combat, that is more of the later movie

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Speaker 3: ninja thing. The earlier emphasis is though there all there

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Speaker 3: are lots of sort of shinobi warfare activities in shnobi attacks,

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Speaker 3: sneak attacks by night. Most of the time, these manuals

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Speaker 3: and early ideas of shinobi are are more focused on spying.

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Speaker 3: For just one example of how these older military manuals

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Speaker 3: might focus more on espionage strategy than on the type

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Speaker 3: of combat focused ninja behavior we think of today, there

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Speaker 3: was a sixteenth century military manual called the Kinetsushu, and

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Speaker 3: this text was from earlier than the major ninjutsu manual.

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Speaker 3: So this is not I want to be clear, this

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Speaker 3: is not one of the ninjutsu manuals I'm talking about.

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Speaker 3: This is a general warfare manual from a little bit earlier,

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Speaker 3: and its focus is broadly on strategy and warfare, but

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Speaker 3: it contains a sub section on espionage techniques, and it

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Speaker 3: recommends things like the following. It says, before you go

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Speaker 3: on a military campaign, send spies into the area that

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Speaker 3: you're targeting to pose as merchants and craftsmen. And these

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Speaker 3: spies should make maps of local topography and try to

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Speaker 3: figure out the morale of locals, for example, by listening

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Speaker 3: to whether people sing sad songs or happy songs. And

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Speaker 3: you can also try to split loyalties within the region

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Speaker 3: by doing things like have your spies make donations to

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Speaker 3: local temples and shrines to win over the approval of

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Speaker 3: the priests class.

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Speaker 2: And I'm guessing you had to be kind of selective

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Speaker 2: about how you do it, Like, don't immediately set up

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Speaker 2: shop and be like, hey, what do you think of

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Speaker 2: the latest Lena del Rey album. You know, tease it

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Speaker 2: out a little bit, make sure you have enough lead

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Speaker 2: time to really immerse yourself in the local community.

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Speaker 3: Exactly right. Oh, and I should say, by the way,

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Speaker 3: I mentioned it in the last couple of episodes, but

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Speaker 3: just to flag again one of my major sources here.

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Speaker 3: Also on the general facts about these ninjasu manuals is

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Speaker 3: a book by a British historian named Stephen Turnbull called

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Speaker 3: Ninja Unmasking the Myth from twenty seventeen, and so he

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Speaker 3: highlights several important ninjasu manuals that I wanted to talk

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Speaker 3: about for a moment here. These later manuals in the

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Speaker 3: seventeenth century onward were more directly focused on ninjitsu, and

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Speaker 3: they include texts such as the Gunpo Geoshu, which was

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Speaker 3: published in the sixteen fifties, and the famous mansen shu

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Speaker 3: Kai or benson Shukai from around sixteen seventy six, the

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Speaker 3: latter of which has in some instances been referred to

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Speaker 3: as the Ninja Bible, though this is probably a misleading

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Speaker 3: way to characterize it. Mens In Chuki or bens in Chukai.

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Speaker 3: The title means ten thousand rivers flowing together into an ocean,

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Speaker 3: and in particular this one is the source of a

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Speaker 3: lot of modern ninja lore. It contains details about ingenious

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Speaker 3: ninja gadgets and equipment. It also contains different philosophies about

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Speaker 3: spying and infiltration. It makes an interesting distinction between what

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Speaker 3: it calls yonin and enin yonin meaning open infiltration, So

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Speaker 3: this would be sneaking into somewhere by wearing a disguise,

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Speaker 3: or being accepted by the target community, so you are

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Speaker 3: within view, but you are disguising your intentions in some way. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 3: en means invisibility or hiding, so this would be infiltration

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Speaker 3: by sneaking by night or hiding under floorboards.

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Speaker 2: And that's where we get into some of these the

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Speaker 2: elements of patients and endurance that we mentioned in the

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Speaker 2: last episode. I believe like if you're going to have

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Speaker 2: to hide under the floorboards for let's say forty eight hours,

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Speaker 2: you know you're going to have to use some schanobi patients.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 3: And that's one reason that there may not be as

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Speaker 3: much difference between the idea of practicing endurance or patients

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Speaker 3: and practicing stealth as you might originally think, like a

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Speaker 3: lot of stealth is patience. In fact, you could even

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Speaker 3: argue that the patience is very important when you are

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Speaker 3: just being accepted within a target community or in disguise. Right,

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Speaker 3: you've got to play the part for a long time

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Speaker 3: to sort of make people comfortable.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you got to actually run that business, Like,

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Speaker 2: don't offer like really deep discounts. They're going to be suspicious.

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Speaker 2: Don't act like you're not interested in making a profit

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Speaker 2: one way or the other. Yeah, become a part of

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Speaker 2: the community and then betray them.

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Speaker 3: Another interesting thing about these ninjitsu manuals is the thing

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Speaker 3: that makes them really tempting to interpret is that sometimes

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Speaker 3: they might include explanations and references that seem kind of circumspect,

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Speaker 3: like they don't give all the details of what they're

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Speaker 3: talking about. And then sometimes they'll have a note like

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Speaker 3: additional information is only to be passed on by word

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Speaker 3: of mouth.

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Speaker 2: Oh boy, that sounds very shanobi.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. One random detail that I love, by the way,

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Speaker 3: just came across this in the book. This is about

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Speaker 3: the gun pogoshu. It's the claim that in the ancient past,

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Speaker 3: men of the regions Ega and Coca, which are places

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Speaker 3: in Japan that are they have long been claimed as

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Speaker 3: national headquarters of shnobi training. So the claim is that

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Speaker 3: these these ninja from Ega and Coca would travel as

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Speaker 3: secret agents, and while doing so, they would pose as yamabushi,

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Speaker 3: which means street performers such as monkey tamers. So like

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Speaker 3: the next time you see a busker playing a Goo

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Speaker 3: Goo Dolls song on the sidewalk, or you see a

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Speaker 3: guy dressed up as Superman in Times Square, you might

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Speaker 3: wonder is this a ninja? Is this person gathering intelligence?

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Speaker 3: Another interesting fact about the gun Pogoshu in particular is

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Speaker 3: that some of its espionage advice is given in the

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Speaker 3: form of a collection of poems, poems about spying.

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Speaker 2: Wow. Wow, that's fascinating that. Yeah, this goes hand in

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Speaker 2: hand with some of the things we've been talking about

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Speaker 2: about disguising yourself blending in. But I guess sometimes like

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Speaker 2: being the obnoxiously obvious person is also a way of

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Speaker 2: blending into the background, Like nobody suspects the like the

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Speaker 2: Time Square Elmo of Well, you may suspect the Times

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Speaker 2: Square Elmo of things, but probably not espionage, right.

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Speaker 3: Exactly anyway, So, with all the caveats we've previously established

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Speaker 3: about the historicity of what's in these manuals that, you know,

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Speaker 3: we might regard them with some historical skepticism. Nevertheless, they

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Speaker 3: do describe a lot of fascinating alleged tricks and tools

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Speaker 3: of ninjasu. So I think we should just dive right

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Speaker 3: in and talk about some alleged ninja techniques.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to pick up talking a little a

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Speaker 2: bit about the female shanobi or the kuno ichi, which

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Speaker 2: I believe we mentioned in passing in the first episode.

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Speaker 2: You know, the idea that we could have have both

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Speaker 2: male and female ninja, and this does really stress the

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Speaker 2: the reality that that that shinobi activities would have covered

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Speaker 2: a lot of ground that isn't just concerned with assassination

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Speaker 2: or military and military and you know, direct military adjacent

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Speaker 2: combat adjacent activities, but get into all these areas of spycraft.

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Speaker 2: And there is apparently, according to Yoda and Alt in

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Speaker 2: their book on Ninja's that I that I cited in

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Speaker 2: the previous episodes, there's no evidence that female shanobi ever

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Speaker 2: engaged in combat, though of course there are historic examples

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Speaker 2: of Japanese women serving as warriors, such as tome Gozen

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Speaker 2: of the late twelfth century. So again not saying they

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Speaker 2: weren't female warriors in Japanese history, and even that there

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Speaker 2: weren't female shannoby operatives who engaged in combat, but there's

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Speaker 2: no evidence of such, but there are writings about female

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Speaker 2: shinobi operatives, and this makes sense for reasons we already

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Speaker 2: stress like if you were going to engage in spycraft,

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Speaker 2: you're you're going to take advantage of whatever tools are

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Speaker 2: at your disposal. And there are going to be certain

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Speaker 2: segments of society through which females are going to be

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Speaker 2: able to travel with a little more ease or a

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Speaker 2: little less notice and there, and as we mentioned last time,

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Speaker 2: there is at least one named female ninja Mochizuki chi Yojo,

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Speaker 2: and this individual is still somewhat of a mystery. There

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Speaker 2: are some arguments that she didn't exist at all, but

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Speaker 2: to an all lister existence as confirmed, so I guess

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Speaker 2: there is a certain amount of evidence on one side

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Speaker 2: of the argument to say that this person did exist

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Speaker 2: in some form. Assuming she did exist, however, she would

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Speaker 2: have been like a poet, a noble woman, and it's

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Speaker 2: said that she was affiliated with the Takata samurai clan

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Speaker 2: and to have presided over a team of the uruki

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Speaker 2: miko or walking maidens, so she would have kind of

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Speaker 2: like been a spymaster of female shanobi and so on

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Speaker 2: the realistic end of things. If there's truth to any

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Speaker 2: of this, whether we were dealing with the specifics of

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Speaker 2: this individual or just the general idea that there were

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Speaker 2: female spy operatives in Japan during the Warring States period,

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Speaker 2: just as there have been female spy operatives in pretty

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Speaker 2: much every culture. I think every culture, I think we're

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Speaker 2: going to be a safe assumption these would have been

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Speaker 2: female operatives who could travel around, often as Shinto holy women,

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Speaker 2: as entertainers, or perhaps prostitutots. Now on the legendary end

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Speaker 2: of the spectrum, however, female shenobi were often imbued with

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Speaker 2: various powers that were linked to female sexuality and reproduction,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of this has much in common with

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Speaker 2: various witchlike belief systems from around the world, you know,

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Speaker 2: even getting into ideas of like the monstrous feminine, you know,

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Speaker 2: the the other ing of of the female and taking

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Speaker 2: aspects of reproduction and sexuality and tweaking them into the

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Speaker 2: you know, the demonic realm and so forth. But this

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Speaker 2: also put me very much in mind of the benajesrit

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Speaker 2: from Frank Herbert's done as well as their later series counterparts,

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Speaker 2: the Honored Matre, were kind of like a splinter of

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Speaker 2: the benajestert who are their opposition. So I wanted to

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Speaker 2: run through some of the powers and abilities attributed to them, again,

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Speaker 2: we're dealing very much with the legendary supernatural end of

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Speaker 2: the of the the ninja pop cultural world here and

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Speaker 2: not his reality. Though perhaps you know, if you read

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Speaker 2: between the lines, you can sort of see like realistic spycraft,

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Speaker 2: you know, at the heart of some of these legends.

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Speaker 2: So according to Joda and All, there were several abilities

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Speaker 2: that were said to be linked to conception, such as

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Speaker 2: the power to remove an unborn child from the womb,

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Speaker 2: change its features, and then return it to the womb.

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Speaker 2: Also the transfer of an unborn child from one woman

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Speaker 2: to another, and the ability for female shinobi to choose

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Speaker 2: to have a baby with any partner they've slept with

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Speaker 2: over the last ten months. This last one I found

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Speaker 2: pretty interesting because some organisms actually do engage in female

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Speaker 2: sperm storage, a form of sexual selection by which sperm

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Speaker 2: cells are retained by the receiving female for a period,

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Speaker 2: sometimes a prolong period of time before using said sperm.

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Speaker 2: Human beings do not do this, but you do find

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Speaker 2: some organisms that do.

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Speaker 3: I recall reading about sharks.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, sharks are a great example, and yeah, sometimes

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Speaker 2: this involves post copulatory cryptic female choice. I believes the

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Speaker 2: terminology via various methods. So it is interesting that, yeah,

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Speaker 2: this is a supposed ability of legendary mythic female ninja,

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Speaker 2: but you have to go into the animal world to

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Speaker 2: find examples of it in reality. Now, it should also

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Speaker 2: come as no surprise, given the sort of fem fatale

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Speaker 2: nature of female ninja and pop culture, that some of

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Speaker 2: their weapons are related to seduction and sex. If go

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Speaker 2: ahead and maybe skip fifteen seconds of this if you

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Speaker 2: just want to skip the very mild details here, but

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Speaker 2: here they are. They include death by orgasm, death by

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Speaker 2: reversing the male's reproductive ejection, shall we say, back into

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Speaker 2: his body, killing him in the process. And then there's

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Speaker 2: the technique where they seduce a man so hard that

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Speaker 2: he's mentally turned into an infant. Hmmm, great trick if

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Speaker 2: you can put it off.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Now, I'm not sure that Frank Herbert was directly inspired

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Speaker 2: by any of this, and if I had to guess,

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Speaker 2: I would say he was probably not. But I have

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Speaker 2: read that he did study Japanese and Chinese culture, among

345
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Speaker 2: you know, so many other things, so it's not impossible

346
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Speaker 2: that he got some inspiration from all of this, and

347
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Speaker 2: certainly like some of these the detailed classifications of spycraft.

348
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Speaker 2: We do see these reflected in the Dune series. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's just thinking earlier about the Hearkenans hiding somebody away

350
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Speaker 2: in the walls in Araken as as an assassination attempt

351
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Speaker 2: on the royal household. You know, there's somebody who was

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Speaker 2: like locked up for days or whatnot. You know, so

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Speaker 2: who knows, maybe he was inspired by it, maybe not.

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Speaker 2: Now for other magical arts attributed to the ninja, well

355
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Speaker 2: we've already mentioned the fictional phantom toad summoning of Juriah,

356
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Speaker 2: but there are some other interesting ones as well, and

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Speaker 2: Yoda and all mentions these, and again not all of

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Speaker 2: these are definitely classified as ninja or shnoby, but a

359
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,760
Speaker 2: lot of them are kind of shinnobi adjacent. And then

360
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Speaker 2: again you have to think about the fact that as

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Speaker 2: ninja myths in the popular culture kind of coalesce, they're

362
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Speaker 2: going to draw in multiple things. So one figure worth

363
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Speaker 2: looking at is sixteenth century sage Kashin Kogi. Not a ninja,

364
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,719
Speaker 2: more of a wizard attributed with various acts of illusion

365
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Speaker 2: and shape shifting, so he would do things like allegedly

366
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Speaker 2: throw leaves into the water and make them turn into fish.

367
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Speaker 2: Various other entertaining illusions that are maybe not that far

368
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Speaker 2: removed from the idea of somebody doing little illusionary tricks

369
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Speaker 2: on the sidewalk or in a subway station.

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Speaker 3: Oh that's interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but yeah, he was according to legend, he was

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Speaker 2: something of a trickster for sure. For instance, there's this

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Speaker 2: story that he painted a detailed illustration of the torments

374
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Speaker 2: of Hell that when you looked at it, it seemed

375
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Speaker 2: animated to the naked eye, So you know, do with

376
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Speaker 2: that way you will. Maybe it was just like really detailed.

377
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,239
Speaker 2: Maybe there was some sort of effect involved, or it

378
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,560
Speaker 2: was magic. You know, he's a magical painter, and it

379
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,960
Speaker 2: looks like it moves like, you know, Harry Potter style

380
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,639
Speaker 2: or something, and everybody was really impressed by it, and

381
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Speaker 2: in fact, the powerful daimyo some called him the demon

382
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:27,440
Speaker 2: Daimyo Nabunaga, insisted on buying it, and the negotiations apparently

383
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Speaker 2: included at least one assassination attempt on the artist, and

384
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Speaker 2: you know, but Cogie stuck to his guns and finally

385
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,399
Speaker 2: agreed to sell it for just a crazy sum, just

386
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Speaker 2: I don't know how much, but a lot, at which

387
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 2: point the art suddenly lost its animated magic, and Nabonica

388
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 2: is like, what happened? Why is it not moving anymore?

389
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 2: Why is it not you knows as amazing as was previously,

390
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 2: And He's like, well, it used to be priceless, but

391
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Speaker 2: then we agreed on a price, and so the quality

392
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Speaker 2: of the piece adjusted to that sounds like a great

393
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Speaker 2: way to get beheaded. But I don't know. You know,

394
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Speaker 2: that's the thing about being a trickster, daring, trickster wizard.

395
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Speaker 2: You can pull these things off.

396
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Speaker 3: I guess artists in the audience remember this negotiating.

397
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Speaker 2: Technique again, Yeah, yeah, try and pull that one off.

398
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 2: So Koji again not a ninja, but a figure that

399
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 2: crosses over with some of the attributed magics of the ninja,

400
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,199
Speaker 2: and as a pop culture figure, he does pop up

401
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 2: in a lot of ninja media, such as nineteen eighty

402
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 2: two's Ninja Wars aka Death of a Ninja starring hero

403
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 2: Yuki Sonata, a major actor who would go on to

404
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,120
Speaker 2: of course have a starring role in the recent Showgun

405
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 2: series on FX, but also he played Scorpion in the

406
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 2: Ninja in one of those in that recent Mortal Kombat film,

407
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,400
Speaker 2: so definitely a figure that has immersed in the Ninja lore,

408
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:48,920
Speaker 2: and I think he's popped up in a film or

409
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 2: two for Weird House Cinema, great actor. I have not

410
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,920
Speaker 2: seen Ninja Wars, though, so I can't really vouch for it.

411
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 2: All right, Shall we get into some more alleged ninja

412
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Speaker 2: technology of note?

413
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:02,479
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely so.

414
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 2: As we previously discussed, the modern trope of the ninja

415
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 2: typically involves their use of a traditional martial art that

416
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,919
Speaker 2: prioritizes medieval weaponry. Right, so these ninjas will use a

417
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 2: schuriken to bypass a security panel. They will kill a

418
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 2: robot with a sword, right, you know exactly what I'm

419
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 2: getting at here? Oh?

420
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 3: Yes, Yeah.

421
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 2: In reality, though, as we've been stressing, the Shanobi would

422
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 2: have used whatever tools were necessary and available to them,

423
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Speaker 2: including what was essentially cutting edge technology, like the latest

424
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,880
Speaker 2: in explosives, the latest in chemistry, the latest in firearms.

425
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 2: And so we do have some examples of this sort

426
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,679
Speaker 2: of thing. Again, with the huge caveat that, we have

427
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 2: a lot of crossing of history and legend here. But

428
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 2: fifteenth century Shnobi commander mochiuki Izumo Nokami is said to

429
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Speaker 2: have utilized smoke bombs, pyrotechnics, code signals, and some form

430
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 2: of weather prediction. And I'm not sure to what extent

431
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 2: we're talking about weather prediction that based on like acceptable

432
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 2: models and methods or something that was maybe a little

433
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 2: more supernatural in form, but you know, both are likely

434
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 2: to some degree.

435
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, remember some of these Ninjasu manuals did involve like

436
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 3: divination and astrology.

437
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so ninja throughout the centuries were said to

438
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 2: use nouroshi no jutsu smoke bombs, though Yoda and All

439
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 2: stress that these were likely quote carefully placed in ignited

440
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 2: smoke pots, given the limited pyrotechnic abilities of the time,

441
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,400
Speaker 2: and that also they would use things that we would

442
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,400
Speaker 2: think of as just simple firecrackers to serve as distractions,

443
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 2: you know, set off a little pop over here, just

444
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 2: enough distraction to do whatever it is you need to do,

445
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 2: be that something more pop culture ninja ish, as sneak

446
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 2: from one point to another or you know, switch out

447
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 2: a piece of paper in an office, that sort of thing.

448
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,120
Speaker 2: But yeah, the smoke bombs, of course, are a huge

449
00:25:58,119 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 2: part of the ninja myth, and they spill over into

450
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 2: Batman as well. Like Batman's always throwing smoke bombs and

451
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 2: disappearing right, and the reality is maybe less as instantly

452
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,239
Speaker 2: dramatic as that. It might have been more something that

453
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 2: involved like placing something, lighting it and waiting for the

454
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 2: smoke to build up. Right. Now, getting into the use

455
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 2: of weaponry, we have the example of sixteenth century assassin

456
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 2: of Sujatini Zunjuvo, and he is noted for his use

457
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 2: of the Japanese matchlock rifle. So this is an individual

458
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 2: that was definitely an assassin, definitely an attempted assassin, definitely

459
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,640
Speaker 2: a marksman. Was he a Shinobi, I don't know. I'm

460
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 2: not as sure on that. I think you could say

461
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 2: that he definitely engaged in a major Shnobi activity, though

462
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 2: this was apparently a Kdo clan marksman task with the

463
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 2: assassination of Oda Nobunaga himself, a local warlord was said

464
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 2: to have hired him for the task and provided with

465
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 2: key intel about Nabonaga's scheduled brands that through a particular

466
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 2: pass in Omi. This would have been on May nineteenth,

467
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 2: fifteen seventy, so you know, basic you know, sort of

468
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 2: sniper operations here. He set up a position days in advance,

469
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 2: using like the patience of the shnobe, if nothing else

470
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 2: until okay, here it comes the retinue. Here comes Tobunuga

471
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 2: in armor on his on his steed, accompanied by all

472
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 2: of his men, and our would be assassin. Here Zenjubo

473
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 2: knows that he really only has one shot. You know,

474
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 2: this is this is a matchlock rifle. You know, he's

475
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 2: not rapid fire. He's going to get one shot off

476
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 2: and then it's going to be so loud and it's

477
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 2: going to produce a discharge of smoke and he's not like,

478
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 2: you know, miles away or anything. So he knows that

479
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,360
Speaker 2: the instant he fires this shot, they're going to mark

480
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 2: his position, and so he needs to he needs to

481
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 2: make sure that that shot lands home or he's going

482
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 2: to have to like try and get off a second

483
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 2: one if he can. So he fires the shot, knocks

484
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 2: Innabunika from his horse, but as it turns out, does

485
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 2: not kill him because the collar armor that he's wearing

486
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:13,199
Speaker 2: absorbs the shot. So Zenjubo flees. He hides that he

487
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 2: is eventually caught and subjected to slow execution. I believe

488
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 2: the story is that they buried him up to his

489
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 2: neck in the sand and like sawed his head off.

490
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 3: Wow.

491
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 2: Now it was worth noting that snipers then and now

492
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 2: sometimes utilized breathing techniques to steady one's aim in. Various

493
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 2: breathing techniques and things that you could also think of

494
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 2: as like self hypnosis have also been attributed to the

495
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 2: shnobi in general to aid in stealth or patience. Now,

496
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 2: at this point, let's come back to the idea of

497
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,959
Speaker 2: a ninja sword, something that is just inseparable from the

498
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 2: modern myth of the ninja. In fact, we already in

499
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 2: passing I think, talked about teenage mutant ninja turtles with katana.

500
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 2: You know, like, if you're gonna make turtles into ninjas,

501
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 2: you give one of them swords. Just what you do.

502
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 2: And we actually heard from at least one listener who

503
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 2: wrote in and was like, oh yeah, there's actually the

504
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:09,239
Speaker 2: whole thing about the ninja having a specific sword, the

505
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:15,479
Speaker 2: shoby katana. But as this listener pointed out, and as

506
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 2: is discussed in the text we were working from, this

507
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 2: sword's exact form is at least a matter of some controversy.

508
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 2: There are a lot of strong arguments that this sword

509
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 2: never existed at all. This is one of those examples

510
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 2: where we don't see mention of it in the historic

511
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 2: ninja guide books and instruction manuals. There's a very strong

512
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 2: argument that these were created entirely in the twentieth century,

513
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 2: though again, this is certainly something where then you can

514
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 2: go around and buy one at a mall in like Wisconsin.

515
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 2: So you can argue that while the shinobi katana exists,

516
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 2: now you see it in movies and you can buy

517
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 2: one at the mall. But let's get into the idea

518
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 2: of it, at least the myth of it. The idea

519
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 2: is that this would be a short straight blade with

520
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 2: a pointed scabbard, So the scabbard has a point at

521
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 2: the end and also a simple square guard you know,

522
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 2: at the between the hilt and the blade, and the

523
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 2: aspects of its design were said to be very practical

524
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 2: for the ninja. So the pointed scabbard allowed it to

525
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 2: be driven into the ground so it could be he

526
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 2: could serve as a footstool to aid in climbing. I

527
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 2: think there's some other stories about the scabbard being used

528
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 2: as like a breathing tube if an engine needed to

529
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 2: go into water. I'm not sure why that is would

530
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 2: be more effective than having a breathing tube on you

531
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 2: or using a reed or something.

532
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, trying to imagine now. I think the idea with

533
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 3: the scabbard is that you wouldn't you could stab it

534
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 3: into the ground within its scabbard and then stand on

535
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 3: the hilt of the sword to like hop over a

536
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 3: wall and then like pull it up by a rope.

537
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 3: That's the idea, because I guess if you were to

538
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 3: stab the blade of the sword into the ground that

539
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 3: the ideas that would dull it. But I'd also seen

540
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 3: something about just generally using the scabbard of this sword

541
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 3: as a kind of like a feeler, like an untinnee

542
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 3: in the dark.

543
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, the idea that you would kind of like partially

544
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 2: unsheathe your sword, hold it out in front of you,

545
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 2: and if you like tapped into something, you're like, oh,

546
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 2: there's a person there, and then you can pull your

547
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 2: sword out and like slash them or something. I think

548
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 2: it's been referred to as like a person detector or

549
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 2: a people detector. And of course there's the other obvious

550
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 2: idea that if you're doing some sneaking around and potentially

551
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 2: using that weapon in a confined space, it pays for

552
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 2: your sword to be short as opposed to being some

553
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 2: sort of like a longer sword, So this would be

554
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 2: in keeping with operations that require disguise and so forth

555
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 2: easier to hide, easier to carry, and all that. So again,

556
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 2: very strong argument to be made that these were just

557
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 2: invented in the twentieth century as part of outright ninja

558
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 2: fiction and myth making. But something that Yoda and All

559
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 2: point out is that, Okay, if these swords did exist,

560
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 2: which depending on where you land on this could be

561
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 2: a huge if they would have been very simple, they

562
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 2: wouldn't have been ornate because they would not have been

563
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 2: forged by a master swordsmith, one of these individuals responsible

564
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 2: for the just the elegant superiority of the noble samurai sword.

565
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 2: But or rather, these would have been made by blacksmiths

566
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 2: in the country, probably who were willing to take a

567
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 2: risk making an illegal sword. M because remember, your average

568
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 2: shenobi here is not, if not an actual criminal, is

569
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 2: at least a common born person, and it was illegal

570
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 2: for commoners to own a weapon of any kind. So

571
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 2: these would have been dirty weapons made for dirty practitioners

572
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 2: of the sketchy arts. Yeah, and I think we also

573
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 2: might want to consider it questions of necessity, Right, would

574
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: is Shenoby operative need a sword, because even a small

575
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 2: sword is fairly sizable, and especially if you consider, well,

576
00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 2: what are you going to use it for? Are you

577
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 2: gonna are you gonna engage in a sword fight? Probably not.

578
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 2: And if you do need some sort of a sharp

579
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 2: object as a weapon or a tool, well, there are

580
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 2: other choices you could make, such as a common field knife,

581
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 2: some other kind of like sharpened tool that on one hand,

582
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 2: maybe doesn't constitute a full weapon, and so for you're

583
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 2: not like you're not going to be found out immediately

584
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 2: just because you have it on your person, but the

585
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 2: kind of thing that could be used as a weapon

586
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 2: if things got dire, and in the cases where they

587
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 2: did use swords, yeah, we're probably talking about the equivalent

588
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 2: of some sort of like a black market sword. Now,

589
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 2: these again are all like pretty standard pop culture ninja weapons,

590
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 2: though I think it's even more fun to get into

591
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 2: some of the perhaps weirder technologies that ninja are held

592
00:33:58,080 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 2: to have utilized.

593
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 3: Right, I think it's time to talk about misugumo. Misugumo

594
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 3: is a device described in the sixth volume of the

595
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 3: seventeenth century ninjitsu manual Mansen Chu Kai, which I mentioned earlier,

596
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 3: and the sixth volume is sort of a It describes

597
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 3: various pieces of ninjitsu equipment and gadget It's kind of

598
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 3: a ce branch compendium. Now, when it comes to the misugumo,

599
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 3: there is a way in which it has commonly been

600
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:33,359
Speaker 3: interpreted in twentieth century sources, and then there is a

601
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 3: revisionist understanding of it, which I think seems much more

602
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 3: likely what the original source is intended. I'm going to

603
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,839
Speaker 3: start off by talking about the more likely confused interpretation.

604
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:50,479
Speaker 3: So misugumo literally means water spider, and it's clear from

605
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 3: the context in which this device is described that it's

606
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 3: some kind of floatation device. So in some popular ninja

607
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 3: literature of the twentyth century, it has been interpreted as

608
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 3: a kind of footwear that allows the ninja to walk

609
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 3: on top of the water, often said to be used

610
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 3: for crossing the watery moat surrounding a castle. So imagine

611
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 3: a kind of wooden sandal that is a little rectangular

612
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 3: sandal in the middle bound with twine in the center

613
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 3: of a large flat disk made out of wooden quarter

614
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 3: circle pieces. So you imagine a round disc with a

615
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 3: hollow center made out of wood cut into four different pieces,

616
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 3: and they're bound together with twine. And then in the

617
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 3: middle you've got this little flat sandal soul to stand on.

618
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 3: You can look up illustrations of this if you want.

619
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 3: But this idea, in the first interpretation, is that the

620
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 3: ninja would stand on these and then use them to

621
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 3: walk across the surface of the water, because hey, wood

622
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 3: floats right now, Would this actually work? Would such a

623
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 3: device allow you to walk on water? I think we

624
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 3: can start by thinking about its namesake, which is the

625
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 3: water spider. There are insects and spiders that are able

626
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,399
Speaker 3: to walk across the surface of the water without sinking in.

627
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 3: There are a number of different species that can do this,

628
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,760
Speaker 3: So how do they do it well? There are generally

629
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 3: two physical forces that they can take advantage of. One

630
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 3: is standard buoyancy. This works by displacing water with a

631
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 3: lower density object, and this is how boats float. Boats

632
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 3: float by having a hollow hull, thus displacing more weight

633
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 3: in water than their own weight, so they get to

634
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 3: sit on top of the water without sinking down. The

635
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 3: other physical factor is surface tension. Insects and spiders are

636
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 3: small enough that different forces play a major role in

637
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 3: the way they move through the world, and the surface

638
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,839
Speaker 3: tension of water is one of those forces. Water is

639
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 3: a polar molecule, so it likes to stick to itself,

640
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 3: and when there's a mass of water, it forms a

641
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 3: kind of skin on its surface, with the water molecules

642
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 3: clinging very tightly to each other and to some extent

643
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 3: resisting being split apart. So it takes some force actually

644
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 3: to break through this surface layer of water. Now, given

645
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 3: the mass of a human body, Earth's gravity pulling us

646
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 3: downward into a pool of water quite easily overcomes the

647
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 3: surface tension of water, and we plunge right in. But

648
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 3: as you become smaller and smaller and your mass becomes smaller,

649
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 3: gravity becomes less relevant and the surface tension of water

650
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 3: becomes more relevant. So some insects and spiders are specially

651
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 3: evolved to take advantage of the power of surface tension

652
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:53,240
Speaker 3: at their body size by having hydrophobic or water repelling

653
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 3: surfaces and hairs on their bodies and especially on their feet,

654
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 3: And these surfaces they from one thing. They spread out

655
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 3: their weight over a larger surface area by having like

656
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 3: specially shaped feed and these hairs that allow them to

657
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 3: kind of spread out their footprint, so they distribute their

658
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 3: weight over a larger surface of the water. But they

659
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 3: also at the molecular level, tend to be made of

660
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 3: hydrophobic substances that do not want to get wet. They

661
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 3: chemically resist getting wet, and so they do not want

662
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 3: to penetrate the surface level of the water. And so

663
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 3: with the combination of these hydrophobic surfaces and distributing their

664
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 3: weight over the larger space, the arthropod is able to

665
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,399
Speaker 3: walk or skate over the surface of the water by

666
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 3: taking advantage of that surface tension. This is great for insects,

667
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 3: but again it works because they are extremely small and

668
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 3: have very small mass. Once you start getting bigger and

669
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,760
Speaker 3: having more mass to your body, you're just too big

670
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 3: to take advantage of the surface tension of water in

671
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 3: this way.

672
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 2: So you're saying Ninja might have been just really small.

673
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 3: If ninja were the size of insects. So yeah, you

674
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 3: can quite well imagine coming up with technology for running

675
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 3: over the surface of water. And that brings us back

676
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 3: to the Misigumo device. So I was not able to

677
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 3: find any rigorous testing of this device of recreations of

678
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 3: this device published in a scientific or historical journal. But

679
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,439
Speaker 3: I've come across a few informal tests staged in things

680
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 3: like documentaries and TV programs, And having reviewed this evidence

681
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 3: and read what I could about it, my assessment is

682
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,399
Speaker 3: this device would probably not work as described, at least

683
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 3: in the way it's interpreted here as footwear, unless the

684
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 3: shoes were absurdly large, much larger than the specifications in

685
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 3: the Ninjasu manual indicate, in which case I questioned the

686
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 3: extent to which you could be said to walk on

687
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 3: water as opposed to just floating upright on two small boats.

688
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 3: And in that case, why is this method of crossing

689
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 3: the water preferable to just piloting a small rat after canoe.

690
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 2: Right, because a small rafter canoe works, wonders like, there's

691
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 2: a reason we still use canoes and kayaks and so forth.

692
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 2: They're great. Why would you wear a couple of like

693
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 2: huge floaty clown shoes instead, especially if you're trying to

694
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 2: be stealthy?

695
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 3: That's right now, you might argue, well, you know, a

696
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 3: rafter canoe is big, and you have to it would

697
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 3: be hard to like carry it to the But in

698
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,399
Speaker 3: order for these shoes to work. They would also need

699
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:26,760
Speaker 3: to be big and hard to carry.

700
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I'm reminded of every time as a

701
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 2: child or even as an adult, where I've attempted to

702
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 2: stand on something floating and say a swimming pool, and

703
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 2: you know, how long can you stay up unless it

704
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 2: is like a large surfboard or a larger float, But

705
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 2: even a fair sized float can prove difficult. You're not

706
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:46,839
Speaker 2: going to stay up there very long.

707
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's another thing I want to get to in

708
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 3: just a minute. Balance. Now, there is another consideration, which

709
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:57,319
Speaker 3: is the question of what exactly are you crossing? If

710
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 3: it's actually water, these these you know, water walking shoes

711
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 3: seem very implausible. But if it's some thicker substance like

712
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 3: a muddy marsh, perhaps increasing the surface area over which

713
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 3: your weight is distributed with these wooden disks actually would

714
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 3: give you an advantage walking over a mud flat or

715
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 3: a marsh, or some kind of thick, thicker substrate like that.

716
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 3: It might help to have shoes like this because they

717
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 3: would function more like snow shoes, you know, they just

718
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 3: spread your weight out.

719
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 2: This remind you know, remember we did some episodes on

720
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,320
Speaker 2: mud a while back, right, and I remember looking into

721
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 2: like military experiments with mud and often with vehicles. But

722
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 2: I believe there were also some accounts of boots, like

723
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:44,479
Speaker 2: trying to figure out like what kind of boots would

724
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 2: enable soldiers to move through or across the mud easier.

725
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,280
Speaker 2: And I know there were at least some experiments involving

726
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 2: like sort of wider shoes almost kind of like snowshoes

727
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:54,239
Speaker 2: for mud.

728
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 3: Right, So if you're thinking about mud or some other

729
00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 3: kind of substrate different than just plain water, different footwear

730
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 3: options could have advantages. But coming back to the water

731
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:09,840
Speaker 3: walking like literal water walking interpretation, that seems unlikely to me.

732
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:14,800
Speaker 3: One example of these informal tests that recreated a model

733
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 3: of this device and tried it out was actually MythBusters

734
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 3: that they did an episode where they tried it and

735
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 3: it did not work at all. They sank right into

736
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,919
Speaker 3: the water or quickly lost upright balance and toppled over.

737
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 3: And they even made like much more buoyant shoes, like

738
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 3: more buoyant, larger shoes that were different than the original

739
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 3: design in these Ninjasu manuals, and still had trouble staying upright.

740
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,959
Speaker 3: The issue is that an adult human is just way

741
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 3: too heavy for reasonably sized shoe worn floatation devices to

742
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 3: keep them afloat, So they're not going to work unless

743
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 3: you make the shoes gigantic, but in doing so, you

744
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:54,839
Speaker 3: would probably lose the ability to quote walk in them

745
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 3: with any kind of grace, So you're just trying to

746
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 3: like stand up into little canoes. And this brings us

747
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:05,280
Speaker 3: back to the how generally floatation devices on the human

748
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 3: scale and larger work by displacing more weight of water

749
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 3: than the total amount of weight that is being kept afloat.

750
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,439
Speaker 3: So you can float a thousand ton boat on top

751
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 3: of the water if the volume of the boat displaces

752
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 3: more than a thousand tons of water. Right, So, you

753
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 3: can have a boat made out of steel that has

754
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 3: a hollow hull, and even though steel is very dense

755
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 3: and would sink in water, it's displacing more water than

756
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 3: the total weight of the boat and all its cargo.

757
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 3: So when you think about it this way, it's relatively

758
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 3: easy to create a personal floatation device that will keep

759
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 3: you from sinking entirely under the water, because once your

760
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 3: body is mostly submerged in the water, it's already displacing

761
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 3: a lot of water. The average density of the human

762
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 3: body is very close to the density of water. I've

763
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 3: seen estimates that on average, a human adult with lungs

764
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 3: full of air is slightly less dense than water and

765
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:10,240
Speaker 3: will float, and a human after exhaling with the lungs empty,

766
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 3: is slightly more dense than water on average, or roughly

767
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 3: neutrally buoyant, and will more likely sink. And this is

768
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:23,360
Speaker 3: going to vary somewhat due to tissue composition, clothing. Literally

769
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 3: how much gas you have in your digestive system that

770
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 3: plays a role in your natural buoyancy. But as animals,

771
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 3: we're naturally right around on the line between sinking and floating.

772
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 3: So if you just add a little bit of extra

773
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,839
Speaker 3: low mass volume, like a life vest, it pushes your

774
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 3: volume to weight ratio over the line and makes you

775
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 3: a little more buoyant enough that your head easily stays

776
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,919
Speaker 3: above the water with most of your body maybe neck

777
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:54,320
Speaker 3: down or shoulders down, displacing a lot of water below

778
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 3: the water line. But walking on top of the water

779
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:02,240
Speaker 3: is a very different front physical goal than just keeping

780
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:05,280
Speaker 3: your head and its breathing holes above the water line.

781
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 3: To walk on top of the water, you would need

782
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 3: shoes that by themselves just the shoe part displace your

783
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 3: entire body's weight in water, which again means that the

784
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 3: shoes need to be both light or like boat shaped

785
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 3: in a way with like a hollow hull and compared

786
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 3: to normal shoes huge. So it is not impossible to

787
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 3: have sort of shoes that will allow you to float

788
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 3: on the top of the water. You can look up

789
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 3: videos of people creating things like this, but again it's

790
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 3: just like people standing on two small boats. They're like

791
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:44,240
Speaker 3: big things, they're not like shoes. The other issue is balance.

792
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,720
Speaker 3: You brought this up rob Because of the low friction

793
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 3: at the interface between your water walking shoes and the

794
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 3: water as compared to shoes and the ground, it is

795
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 3: difficult to stay upright and propel yourself forward on a

796
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 3: floatation device. In video, it was like the MythBusters test.

797
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 3: When people try to do this, they quickly either sink

798
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:05,919
Speaker 3: or just tumble over.

799
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, you end up falling one way, and say, like

800
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 2: the boogie board you're trying to balance on, ends up

801
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 2: like soaring off the other way.

802
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 3: Yeah. So the misogumo as shoes interpretation for walking on

803
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:25,360
Speaker 3: actual water seems totally not plausible. However, a lot of

804
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 3: this gets cleared up with a reinterpretation of what this

805
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 3: device was intended to be used for. So the original

806
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 3: text that describes this device does not describe how it's used.

807
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 3: It only sort of gives a give specifications of the

808
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 3: device itself, and shows an illustration of a single one

809
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 3: in isolation, notably not a pair of them. Also, the

810
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:54,800
Speaker 3: original illustration does not indicate any kind of sandal strap

811
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,240
Speaker 3: or other way of attaching the paddle in the middle

812
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 3: of the disk to one's foot, So some modern scholars

813
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 3: have come to think that this device was not actually

814
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 3: intended to be used in pairs as footwear, but instead

815
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 3: was a seat used for flotation in the water. So

816
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 3: a ninja could, according to this interpretation, sit in this

817
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 3: sort of ring and use it like an inner tube

818
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 3: and then float across a water remote but they absolutely

819
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:28,799
Speaker 3: would get wet if they did this. They would be

820
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 3: sitting in the water, but the upper part of their

821
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 3: body would be sitting above the water, like sitting in

822
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 3: an inner tube.

823
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 2: So you might want to like take your pants off,

824
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 2: pants in your pack until you get across, climb up

825
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 2: half naked, and then put your pants back on.

826
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 3: Right, And of course all of the caveats and uncertainties

827
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 3: about hystericity remain. We don't know if this was ever

828
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 3: like really used, or if it was exactly what it

829
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 3: was used for. I've seen speculation that seems again just

830
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 3: total speculation, that you could, like, oh, you could transport

831
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 3: gunpowder across the water without getting it wet by using

832
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 3: one of these. You know, you could hold it up

833
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:09,359
Speaker 3: in the air and float across the water. I guess

834
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:11,399
Speaker 3: you could do that, But then again, you could also

835
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 3: probably just use like a small raft or boat. So

836
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 3: I don't think it's fully understood what the alleged benefit

837
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 3: of this device as described would be. But it does

838
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 3: seem to me that the floating seat interpretation is more

839
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 3: likely what the author intended than the footwear and interpretation.

840
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 2: I mean, we mentioned that it's important for a shnobi

841
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 2: operative to potentially become part of the community, open up

842
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:45,400
Speaker 2: a business. What if that business was essentially tubing, providing

843
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 2: inflatable circular devices for tourists to float from point A

844
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 2: to point B down a river, you know, at leisure,

845
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 2: perhaps while enjoying a beverage. It might give you the

846
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 2: cover you need.

847
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 3: Okay, well, maybe we have to call it for part

848
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 3: three here, But we've got more alleged ninja techniques and

849
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 3: anecdotes to talk about in the next episode.

850
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 2: That's right, we'll be back and we'll cover we'll cover

851
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 2: some big ones. If you're wondering, well, why did they

852
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 2: talk about X, Y or Z, we'll hold on for

853
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,319
Speaker 2: the next episode. But still in the meantime, go ahead

854
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 2: right into us, because everything is fair at game here.

855
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 2: If you have thoughts about ninja lore, ninja history, various

856
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 2: shnobi activities, either in the history books or on the

857
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 2: big screen. Yeah, it's all fair game right in. We'd

858
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 2: love to hear from you. Just a reminder. Stuff to

859
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 2: Blow your Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast

860
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 2: with core episodes and Tuesdays and Thursdays, short form episode

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Speaker 2: on Wednesdays, and on Friday's Weird House Cinema. That time

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00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:47,359
Speaker 2: when we set aside most serious concerns just talk about

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00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 2: a weird movie and hey, we'll remind you. If you're

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00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 2: on the social media, check us out, follow us, and

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00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 2: some of the various places you can find us. A

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00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:59,879
Speaker 2: big one of course is Instagram. That's SDBYM podcast. That's

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00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 2: our user name there, that's our handle there. If you're

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00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 2: on the gram then go over there and follow us.

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00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:08,840
Speaker 2: Why not, It's one way to keep up with the

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Speaker 2: episodes we're putting out. Then we also have some amusing

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Speaker 2: videos going up as well, reels I guess reels. They

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Speaker 2: call them reels Huge.

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Speaker 3: Thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

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Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

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00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

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00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:26,359
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

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Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

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Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

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Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

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00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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00:50:43,719 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.

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Speaker 1: Had had the po Pot