1 00:00:14,036 --> 00:00:22,476 Speaker 1: Push it. You know, when you think about how people 2 00:00:22,516 --> 00:00:27,876 Speaker 1: talk about people experiencing houselessness, it's unbelievable, the rancor, and 3 00:00:27,916 --> 00:00:31,156 Speaker 1: they've never taken the time to listen or to really understand. 4 00:00:31,236 --> 00:00:33,876 Speaker 1: There's a lack of imagination in addition to a lack 5 00:00:33,916 --> 00:00:37,796 Speaker 1: of empathy. And how do we fight that when our 6 00:00:37,876 --> 00:00:42,156 Speaker 1: society is built on this concept of inequality and for 7 00:00:42,316 --> 00:00:45,076 Speaker 1: those to have, there have to be those who don't. 8 00:00:49,476 --> 00:00:53,396 Speaker 1: I'm Khalil Jibrad Muhammad. I'm Ben Austin. We're two best friends, 9 00:00:53,716 --> 00:00:57,596 Speaker 1: one black, one white. I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. 10 00:00:57,836 --> 00:01:00,636 Speaker 1: And this is some of my best friends are some 11 00:01:00,716 --> 00:01:03,916 Speaker 1: of my best friends are I'm not a blank. Some 12 00:01:03,996 --> 00:01:07,836 Speaker 1: of my best friends are that thing. In this show, 13 00:01:08,196 --> 00:01:11,596 Speaker 1: we wrestle with the challenges and the absurdities of a 14 00:01:11,676 --> 00:01:15,276 Speaker 1: deeply divided and unequal country. And man, this episode is 15 00:01:15,276 --> 00:01:19,596 Speaker 1: about inequality. Yes, yes, we're gonna talk to someone doing 16 00:01:19,636 --> 00:01:22,356 Speaker 1: some of the most innovative and important work to address 17 00:01:22,516 --> 00:01:26,516 Speaker 1: our poverty problem and affordable housing problem. Houseless. We're going 18 00:01:26,556 --> 00:01:47,036 Speaker 1: to break that down. Let's go. Hey man, Hey, Hey, yeah, man, 19 00:01:47,076 --> 00:01:49,316 Speaker 1: So I don't think I've ever told you this story. Um, 20 00:01:49,996 --> 00:01:53,516 Speaker 1: It's something that was profoundly impactful on me when I 21 00:01:53,516 --> 00:01:55,476 Speaker 1: first got started at the Shamberck Center. So I'm gonna 22 00:01:55,516 --> 00:01:57,316 Speaker 1: tell you about it. My heart dropped for a second. 23 00:01:57,316 --> 00:01:59,996 Speaker 1: I thought you were gonna tell me like the breakup story. No, no, no, 24 00:02:00,116 --> 00:02:02,356 Speaker 1: And it's totally connected to what we're talking about today. 25 00:02:02,476 --> 00:02:04,756 Speaker 1: All right, let's hear it. I've become director of the 26 00:02:04,756 --> 00:02:08,436 Speaker 1: Schoenberg Center for Research and Black Culture, located in the 27 00:02:08,476 --> 00:02:12,796 Speaker 1: heart of Heart in two eleven. This is like historic 28 00:02:12,916 --> 00:02:15,876 Speaker 1: ground that all sorts of amazing people have walked on, 29 00:02:15,956 --> 00:02:18,916 Speaker 1: from James Baldwin to my Angelo to Malcolm X himself. 30 00:02:18,956 --> 00:02:23,276 Speaker 1: All right, so I'm doing some early programming and I'm 31 00:02:23,316 --> 00:02:26,156 Speaker 1: trying to drum up interest in the place, and we 32 00:02:26,276 --> 00:02:28,836 Speaker 1: have this event one night in our auditorium and a 33 00:02:28,876 --> 00:02:31,196 Speaker 1: woman comes up to me and she says, you know, 34 00:02:31,236 --> 00:02:35,276 Speaker 1: this event was amazing, but I think you should invite 35 00:02:35,556 --> 00:02:39,036 Speaker 1: homeless people to the Schaumberg. They can have kind of 36 00:02:39,036 --> 00:02:43,116 Speaker 1: like an American idol for homeless people. And we ignore 37 00:02:43,196 --> 00:02:47,556 Speaker 1: homeless people constantly. So she's like, homeless people have so 38 00:02:47,676 --> 00:02:51,876 Speaker 1: much talent and they just need opportunity to showcase their talent. 39 00:02:52,116 --> 00:02:54,356 Speaker 1: And so just because they don't have a home doesn't 40 00:02:54,356 --> 00:02:58,436 Speaker 1: mean that they don't have something to share. What's your response. Yeah, 41 00:02:58,476 --> 00:03:00,956 Speaker 1: you're hearing this and you're like, let's do it. I'm thinking, 42 00:03:00,996 --> 00:03:04,436 Speaker 1: I'm thinking this job is crazy, Like I'm just trying 43 00:03:04,436 --> 00:03:06,156 Speaker 1: to get a paycheck and get the fuck out of here. 44 00:03:07,836 --> 00:03:10,236 Speaker 1: Like I'm running a research archive. I'm supposed to be 45 00:03:10,236 --> 00:03:13,076 Speaker 1: working with scholars, and here I am having a conversation 46 00:03:13,476 --> 00:03:18,156 Speaker 1: about houselessness. Homelessness talent show. Yeah, so her name is 47 00:03:18,156 --> 00:03:21,876 Speaker 1: a Ratha speaks and turns out that like within a week. 48 00:03:22,396 --> 00:03:25,276 Speaker 1: I come back to work on a random weekday and 49 00:03:25,436 --> 00:03:30,436 Speaker 1: she's out front and has built a cardboard compound. So 50 00:03:30,676 --> 00:03:33,236 Speaker 1: I want to show you a couple of pictures so 51 00:03:33,276 --> 00:03:35,716 Speaker 1: that you see what this looks like. All right, all right, 52 00:03:36,156 --> 00:03:38,036 Speaker 1: oh man, And there's like there really is like a 53 00:03:38,076 --> 00:03:41,676 Speaker 1: living room. Yeah, a bedroom. She's got a photon. You 54 00:03:41,756 --> 00:03:43,956 Speaker 1: guys are like in a home. It's a house, but 55 00:03:44,036 --> 00:03:47,036 Speaker 1: it's outdoors and boxes. Oh man. She put tile on 56 00:03:47,116 --> 00:03:51,436 Speaker 1: the floor inside the cardboard boxes. That's right. This is incredible, 57 00:03:51,516 --> 00:03:54,596 Speaker 1: Like it's part of the community. She has taken cardboard 58 00:03:54,676 --> 00:03:57,036 Speaker 1: and put it together in such a way that she 59 00:03:57,076 --> 00:04:00,876 Speaker 1: has a bedroom she's got an eating living room, she's 60 00:04:00,876 --> 00:04:04,276 Speaker 1: got a library with book crates and books on the crate, 61 00:04:04,516 --> 00:04:06,956 Speaker 1: and it's on the sidewalk. It's right in front of 62 00:04:06,956 --> 00:04:09,796 Speaker 1: the building. You cannot enter this building with out almost 63 00:04:09,836 --> 00:04:16,476 Speaker 1: stepping over this compound. And I'm like, holy smokes. So 64 00:04:16,716 --> 00:04:18,596 Speaker 1: I talked to her and say, what's going on in Rathla. 65 00:04:18,756 --> 00:04:20,356 Speaker 1: She's like, well, you know, I just wanted you to 66 00:04:20,436 --> 00:04:25,076 Speaker 1: know that the issues of homelessness need more attention. And 67 00:04:25,116 --> 00:04:28,236 Speaker 1: I'm gonna be here bringing attention because this is the 68 00:04:28,316 --> 00:04:30,836 Speaker 1: Schaumberg Center for Research and Black Culture. And if there's 69 00:04:30,876 --> 00:04:34,116 Speaker 1: any place in America where homelessness ought to be important, 70 00:04:34,156 --> 00:04:37,036 Speaker 1: it is here. And I'm like, oh yeah. She's like, 71 00:04:37,236 --> 00:04:40,596 Speaker 1: I know who you are. You're Elijah Mohammad's great grandson, 72 00:04:41,396 --> 00:04:44,316 Speaker 1: and I know if anybody will take this issue seriously, 73 00:04:44,316 --> 00:04:46,796 Speaker 1: it is you. And you know what, I think you 74 00:04:46,836 --> 00:04:50,476 Speaker 1: should rename the Schaumberg Center the Elijah Mohammad Center for 75 00:04:50,636 --> 00:04:55,556 Speaker 1: Nation Building. Yeah. Yeah, So it is a fascinating moment. 76 00:04:55,716 --> 00:05:00,156 Speaker 1: She's like, you're the person. This is divine that I'm here. 77 00:05:00,716 --> 00:05:03,196 Speaker 1: I have set up this compound. I want to draw 78 00:05:03,236 --> 00:05:06,516 Speaker 1: attention to the problem of homelessness, and you're the person 79 00:05:06,636 --> 00:05:08,876 Speaker 1: is going to help me do it. I'm like, oh, okay, 80 00:05:09,636 --> 00:05:12,956 Speaker 1: but I can't let you keep this construction zone here 81 00:05:12,956 --> 00:05:15,716 Speaker 1: of cardboard housing. I can't. I can't let this happen. 82 00:05:16,196 --> 00:05:19,036 Speaker 1: And in fact, while I'm talking to her, a woman 83 00:05:19,076 --> 00:05:23,236 Speaker 1: comes up and literally brates her is like, this is despicable. 84 00:05:23,876 --> 00:05:26,516 Speaker 1: Get this trash out of here. This doesn't belong here. 85 00:05:26,516 --> 00:05:28,996 Speaker 1: And this woman obviously lived in the neighborhood. And I 86 00:05:29,036 --> 00:05:31,556 Speaker 1: went to interject. I said, hey, you know I'm the director. 87 00:05:31,596 --> 00:05:34,076 Speaker 1: She said, I know who you are. I said, oh snap, 88 00:05:34,276 --> 00:05:38,316 Speaker 1: She didn't care one bit who I was. So I 89 00:05:38,476 --> 00:05:40,676 Speaker 1: talked to a rough and I said, listen, here's what 90 00:05:40,716 --> 00:05:45,116 Speaker 1: we're gonna do. I'm gonna hire a videographer to shoot 91 00:05:45,316 --> 00:05:49,156 Speaker 1: what you've done here, and I'm gonna use that video 92 00:05:49,516 --> 00:05:53,436 Speaker 1: to help you tell your story. And in exchange for that, 93 00:05:53,756 --> 00:05:56,196 Speaker 1: you will agree that within two weeks you will leave 94 00:05:56,276 --> 00:05:59,476 Speaker 1: the Shaunberg Center and take the cause elsewhere because it 95 00:05:59,516 --> 00:06:03,396 Speaker 1: was unsustainable. So here is the day when I sat 96 00:06:03,436 --> 00:06:05,596 Speaker 1: down with her, because part of the deal was she 97 00:06:05,636 --> 00:06:08,116 Speaker 1: wanted me to be interviewed with her so that she 98 00:06:08,156 --> 00:06:10,596 Speaker 1: could tell her story. How did she feel did she 99 00:06:10,676 --> 00:06:14,156 Speaker 1: feel that she was both seeing and that her cause 100 00:06:14,196 --> 00:06:18,676 Speaker 1: and voice were having an effect. Absolutely. What Ratha Speaks 101 00:06:18,716 --> 00:06:23,236 Speaker 1: was trying to tell us was that we don't deal 102 00:06:23,316 --> 00:06:26,436 Speaker 1: with the root causes of this problem. We keep addressing 103 00:06:26,436 --> 00:06:30,516 Speaker 1: it in band aid ways, and we're criminalizing poverty by 104 00:06:30,756 --> 00:06:34,436 Speaker 1: treating houseless people as if they don't actually belong in 105 00:06:34,476 --> 00:06:38,196 Speaker 1: our society. And she's like, no, we have a voice, man. 106 00:06:38,236 --> 00:06:40,396 Speaker 1: I love that, Khalil. I love that you took the 107 00:06:40,476 --> 00:06:43,236 Speaker 1: time to get to know a Ratha Speaks and to 108 00:06:43,316 --> 00:06:47,476 Speaker 1: do this work. And you're right. Today's show, we are 109 00:06:47,516 --> 00:06:52,076 Speaker 1: talking with Heidi Beferous. She's a doctor of internal medicine 110 00:06:52,356 --> 00:06:55,116 Speaker 1: and she's the medical director of Housing for Health in 111 00:06:55,156 --> 00:06:59,316 Speaker 1: Los Angeles County. Yes, and exactly what you said. Housing 112 00:06:59,356 --> 00:07:02,236 Speaker 1: for Health tackles this problem in a way that's different. 113 00:07:02,276 --> 00:07:05,516 Speaker 1: That's right. It looks at homelessness or houselessness as a 114 00:07:05,596 --> 00:07:10,156 Speaker 1: healthcare matter as well as a housing one. And that's innovative. 115 00:07:10,436 --> 00:07:13,636 Speaker 1: And what they do in La County is also massive. 116 00:07:14,076 --> 00:07:18,636 Speaker 1: They house and care for nearly twenty thousand people. Yes, 117 00:07:18,756 --> 00:07:21,916 Speaker 1: this is a big deal and a really innovative approach 118 00:07:21,996 --> 00:07:25,396 Speaker 1: to a massive problem that spans coast to coast, from 119 00:07:25,636 --> 00:07:29,036 Speaker 1: La skid Row to the streets of Harlem, USA. And 120 00:07:29,076 --> 00:07:31,196 Speaker 1: I think maybe we'll find out that the solution is 121 00:07:31,236 --> 00:07:33,556 Speaker 1: to get you to go from city to city across 122 00:07:33,636 --> 00:07:37,516 Speaker 1: the country with a videographer and that nice suit that 123 00:07:37,556 --> 00:07:40,476 Speaker 1: you were wearing in that picture, and you know, just 124 00:07:40,556 --> 00:07:43,556 Speaker 1: talk to everybody and you can handle this. Let's get 125 00:07:43,596 --> 00:07:55,076 Speaker 1: going with Heidi. All right, let's do it, doctor Heidi Beferus, 126 00:07:55,076 --> 00:07:57,476 Speaker 1: Welcome to some of my best friends. Are Yes, We're 127 00:07:57,516 --> 00:07:59,756 Speaker 1: so happy to have you, Thank you, thank you for 128 00:07:59,796 --> 00:08:03,356 Speaker 1: inviting me. I'm so excited to join this conversation. Heidi. 129 00:08:03,676 --> 00:08:05,996 Speaker 1: We want to know more about what you do and 130 00:08:06,116 --> 00:08:09,956 Speaker 1: what Housing for Health does in Los Angeles County. So yeah, yeah, 131 00:08:09,956 --> 00:08:12,716 Speaker 1: what is Housing for Health? Housing for Health is a 132 00:08:12,756 --> 00:08:16,596 Speaker 1: program of Los Angeles County, the Department of Health Services, 133 00:08:16,636 --> 00:08:20,236 Speaker 1: and it was started about ten years ago by Mitch 134 00:08:20,316 --> 00:08:23,676 Speaker 1: Katz now at New York City Health and Hospital Corporation. 135 00:08:24,236 --> 00:08:28,236 Speaker 1: It's a gorgeous vision, right, How do we, as social 136 00:08:28,276 --> 00:08:33,076 Speaker 1: justice warriors in the realm of healthcare, address the obscenity 137 00:08:33,156 --> 00:08:37,236 Speaker 1: that is houselessness in Los Angeles County and think about 138 00:08:37,276 --> 00:08:41,436 Speaker 1: not only providing roofs over people's heads. But helping those 139 00:08:41,436 --> 00:08:47,796 Speaker 1: people who've been historically traumatized and marginalized get re enfranchised 140 00:08:47,876 --> 00:08:50,956 Speaker 1: and be able to pursue meaning and purpose in their 141 00:08:50,996 --> 00:08:54,036 Speaker 1: lives and address all the issues that they haven't been 142 00:08:54,076 --> 00:08:57,876 Speaker 1: able to address because of their dire life circumstances, which 143 00:08:57,876 --> 00:09:01,476 Speaker 1: often started from childhood. Yeah, yeah, you said something just 144 00:09:01,556 --> 00:09:04,396 Speaker 1: now that's really striking, and I know for some of 145 00:09:04,396 --> 00:09:06,356 Speaker 1: our listeners it will be. It was striking to me 146 00:09:06,476 --> 00:09:09,436 Speaker 1: the first time that my twenty year old daughter came 147 00:09:09,476 --> 00:09:12,156 Speaker 1: in my home. Her name is Jordan, and she scolded 148 00:09:12,156 --> 00:09:15,276 Speaker 1: my wife and I for using the word homeless. We 149 00:09:15,276 --> 00:09:17,916 Speaker 1: were like, whoa, what the what? Like? What is happening here? 150 00:09:17,916 --> 00:09:21,836 Speaker 1: Like what's wrong with that? Work? So so we now 151 00:09:21,956 --> 00:09:24,556 Speaker 1: use houseless, But I don't really know why. And so 152 00:09:24,676 --> 00:09:27,916 Speaker 1: maybe you help me and Ben and our listeners understand 153 00:09:28,276 --> 00:09:31,636 Speaker 1: why houselessness is more appropriate. I think a couple of things. 154 00:09:31,716 --> 00:09:34,116 Speaker 1: One one of the things that you find when you 155 00:09:34,716 --> 00:09:38,276 Speaker 1: are accompanying people who are experiencing houselessness is that they 156 00:09:38,316 --> 00:09:41,396 Speaker 1: create home wherever they are, whether that's on a riverbed 157 00:09:41,516 --> 00:09:43,836 Speaker 1: or an encampment or an a shelter in their car. 158 00:09:44,636 --> 00:09:47,196 Speaker 1: The concept of home, which is that sense of belonging 159 00:09:47,356 --> 00:09:51,636 Speaker 1: community is not obviated by the lack of walls and 160 00:09:51,756 --> 00:09:55,556 Speaker 1: roof And I think it also reminds us that when 161 00:09:55,556 --> 00:10:01,956 Speaker 1: we commodify housing and we create circumstances in which housing 162 00:10:02,516 --> 00:10:06,476 Speaker 1: is just not affordable or not available. Yes, that in 163 00:10:06,516 --> 00:10:11,356 Speaker 1: just providing the housing, that's one important thing, but we 164 00:10:11,396 --> 00:10:13,796 Speaker 1: also have to address the structural violence that God us 165 00:10:13,836 --> 00:10:16,276 Speaker 1: there in the first place to really achieve the healing 166 00:10:16,316 --> 00:10:18,956 Speaker 1: and the wellness that we want. And I think that's 167 00:10:18,996 --> 00:10:22,036 Speaker 1: why we call it houselessness. So I think we want 168 00:10:22,036 --> 00:10:26,796 Speaker 1: to remind ourselves of that really important human element. Right, 169 00:10:26,876 --> 00:10:29,796 Speaker 1: So not having a house is not a moral judgment 170 00:10:29,836 --> 00:10:32,436 Speaker 1: on the character of a person, that's right, whose home 171 00:10:32,796 --> 00:10:35,636 Speaker 1: can actually be a sense of belonging in a community, 172 00:10:35,676 --> 00:10:38,236 Speaker 1: even if you're on the street, as opposed to the 173 00:10:38,276 --> 00:10:40,596 Speaker 1: fact that you don't actually have a brick and mortar place, 174 00:10:40,636 --> 00:10:43,876 Speaker 1: which to most of us, at least in this conversation, 175 00:10:44,036 --> 00:10:46,436 Speaker 1: is more an indictment of the society we live in 176 00:10:46,516 --> 00:10:49,956 Speaker 1: than the individual. That's right. And unfortunately, a lot of 177 00:10:50,076 --> 00:10:55,516 Speaker 1: today's rhetoric sort of criminalizes homelessness and people experiencing homelessness, 178 00:10:55,596 --> 00:10:58,036 Speaker 1: and we need to realize is really a supply and 179 00:10:58,116 --> 00:11:02,396 Speaker 1: demand issue as well as speaks to the structural violence 180 00:11:02,436 --> 00:11:05,836 Speaker 1: and institutional racism that are allowing and well today. And 181 00:11:05,956 --> 00:11:08,076 Speaker 1: maybe you could paint a picture for us of a 182 00:11:08,196 --> 00:11:12,156 Speaker 1: specific case, a specific person that you met on the 183 00:11:12,196 --> 00:11:15,876 Speaker 1: street and what you did and what happened next, just 184 00:11:15,916 --> 00:11:18,236 Speaker 1: to give us a sense of what actually housing for 185 00:11:18,316 --> 00:11:22,156 Speaker 1: health does. I always goes back to the story of James. 186 00:11:22,636 --> 00:11:27,436 Speaker 1: It's not his actual name. James scold me about the 187 00:11:27,596 --> 00:11:30,916 Speaker 1: story and how important it is to understand that people 188 00:11:30,996 --> 00:11:35,316 Speaker 1: come to houselessness and what it takes to really restore 189 00:11:35,836 --> 00:11:37,676 Speaker 1: their dignity, which at the end of the day is 190 00:11:37,676 --> 00:11:41,956 Speaker 1: what we're trying to do. So James, I met him, 191 00:11:41,956 --> 00:11:43,916 Speaker 1: actually was a thirty seven year old guy. I was 192 00:11:43,916 --> 00:11:47,036 Speaker 1: in clinic at Martin Luther King Community Health Center in 193 00:11:47,236 --> 00:11:52,756 Speaker 1: Compton and he was scheduled to see me, and I 194 00:11:52,796 --> 00:11:55,916 Speaker 1: had read up on his chart before he came in, 195 00:11:56,196 --> 00:12:01,316 Speaker 1: and in the chart was the usual vitriol about this 196 00:12:01,476 --> 00:12:03,796 Speaker 1: black man. Okay, right, I'll tell you the words that 197 00:12:03,836 --> 00:12:15,796 Speaker 1: are being used, right, so angry, defiant, conferenceational, aggressive, non compliant, difficult, challenging, 198 00:12:16,836 --> 00:12:19,596 Speaker 1: And what you could tell from looking at the chart 199 00:12:19,956 --> 00:12:24,076 Speaker 1: was that James was literally coming into the emergency room 200 00:12:24,756 --> 00:12:27,036 Speaker 1: every nine to ten days. He would come in at 201 00:12:27,116 --> 00:12:30,156 Speaker 1: night in congestive heart failure. He's a thirty seven year 202 00:12:30,196 --> 00:12:32,276 Speaker 1: old black man. Why is a thirty seven year old 203 00:12:32,276 --> 00:12:35,756 Speaker 1: black man having congestive heart failure? Then you could see 204 00:12:35,876 --> 00:12:39,516 Speaker 1: the frustration in the notes about like, he's not adherent, 205 00:12:39,876 --> 00:12:42,236 Speaker 1: he's not doing what we're telling him to do, and 206 00:12:42,396 --> 00:12:46,356 Speaker 1: this sort of revolving door. And at no point did 207 00:12:46,396 --> 00:12:50,036 Speaker 1: I sort of see any notation about what was going 208 00:12:50,076 --> 00:12:53,676 Speaker 1: on with James, any sort of attempt at understanding what 209 00:12:53,756 --> 00:12:56,156 Speaker 1: was happening with him. And one of the things that 210 00:12:56,196 --> 00:12:58,636 Speaker 1: was disturbing to me, so you know, normally when your 211 00:12:58,676 --> 00:13:01,836 Speaker 1: heart pumps khalil or ben. Every time your heart pumps, 212 00:13:02,316 --> 00:13:05,316 Speaker 1: about seventy percent of the blood that's in one of 213 00:13:05,356 --> 00:13:08,156 Speaker 1: your chambers is pushed out into your body to give 214 00:13:08,196 --> 00:13:14,316 Speaker 1: it oxygen and trition, right, And James's fraction was ten 215 00:13:14,796 --> 00:13:18,196 Speaker 1: ten percent, So he was only getting tablespoons of blood 216 00:13:18,236 --> 00:13:21,276 Speaker 1: out with each squeeze, which means he was really sick. 217 00:13:21,476 --> 00:13:24,956 Speaker 1: Right in his life expectancy is typically six to twelve months, 218 00:13:24,956 --> 00:13:27,996 Speaker 1: and at one point in one of the hospitals because 219 00:13:28,036 --> 00:13:32,436 Speaker 1: he was deemed sort of non compliant. He was put 220 00:13:32,476 --> 00:13:36,156 Speaker 1: on hospice. Hey, you're dying, You clearly don't care about 221 00:13:36,156 --> 00:13:38,276 Speaker 1: your health. So he's being ridden off as a thirty 222 00:13:38,316 --> 00:13:41,556 Speaker 1: seven year old, you're basically saying. And the process is 223 00:13:41,596 --> 00:13:44,116 Speaker 1: because he's not doing what we're telling him to do. Right. 224 00:13:44,916 --> 00:13:46,716 Speaker 1: One of the things that we're supposed to do is 225 00:13:46,756 --> 00:13:49,916 Speaker 1: put in an automatic defibrillator in their chest so that 226 00:13:49,956 --> 00:13:53,596 Speaker 1: if that happens, you know, they automatically can get shocked 227 00:13:53,636 --> 00:13:56,916 Speaker 1: out into a normal rhythm. But he was deemed too 228 00:13:56,956 --> 00:14:00,396 Speaker 1: non compliant to be referred for the placement of the defibrillator, 229 00:14:00,436 --> 00:14:02,876 Speaker 1: and instead they gave him a vest. Then in the 230 00:14:02,916 --> 00:14:07,876 Speaker 1: pocket is a little defibrillator and he was told to 231 00:14:07,916 --> 00:14:11,836 Speaker 1: wear that. And I was fascinated that he was coming 232 00:14:11,836 --> 00:14:14,196 Speaker 1: to clinic because he hadn't been to see anybody in 233 00:14:14,196 --> 00:14:16,796 Speaker 1: the outpatient clinic for years as far as I could tell. 234 00:14:17,956 --> 00:14:21,676 Speaker 1: And I was waiting and I heard some screaming coming 235 00:14:21,676 --> 00:14:24,036 Speaker 1: from the lobby and I went out, and of course 236 00:14:24,076 --> 00:14:27,196 Speaker 1: I had been running late because I usually do, and 237 00:14:27,396 --> 00:14:32,196 Speaker 1: he was quite upset about my being late. And got 238 00:14:32,276 --> 00:14:35,796 Speaker 1: him into the clinic, and you started just taking a 239 00:14:35,836 --> 00:14:39,356 Speaker 1: moment and just sitting with him for a little while, 240 00:14:40,316 --> 00:14:46,676 Speaker 1: and he started crying and I said, James, what's going on? 241 00:14:46,836 --> 00:14:49,836 Speaker 1: And he said, I just can't take it anymore. Said 242 00:14:49,916 --> 00:14:52,956 Speaker 1: last night, my ten year old boy, I woke up 243 00:14:52,996 --> 00:14:55,116 Speaker 1: at two in the morning and he was staring at me, 244 00:14:55,756 --> 00:14:58,756 Speaker 1: and I said, why are you awake? And he said, 245 00:14:59,356 --> 00:15:02,116 Speaker 1: I'm worried You're going to die. This ten year old 246 00:15:02,156 --> 00:15:05,076 Speaker 1: said this to him. Yeah, and then the story came 247 00:15:05,116 --> 00:15:10,356 Speaker 1: out and James grew up in the South side of Chicago, Wow, 248 00:15:10,596 --> 00:15:14,796 Speaker 1: broken home, living on the streets as a ten year old. 249 00:15:15,396 --> 00:15:18,876 Speaker 1: Remembers being dropped off at the emergency room by his 250 00:15:18,916 --> 00:15:22,156 Speaker 1: friends because he had passed out. Didn't start into medical 251 00:15:22,196 --> 00:15:25,356 Speaker 1: care at that time because life was really challenging for him. 252 00:15:25,436 --> 00:15:27,876 Speaker 1: He was in and out of the juvenile justice system, 253 00:15:29,036 --> 00:15:32,716 Speaker 1: got involved with his woman as he called her, started 254 00:15:32,756 --> 00:15:36,836 Speaker 1: having kids, and then began this journey of sort of 255 00:15:37,476 --> 00:15:40,156 Speaker 1: going from state to state, and he ended up now 256 00:15:40,196 --> 00:15:43,796 Speaker 1: in LA. He was living in his pickup truck with 257 00:15:43,836 --> 00:15:48,156 Speaker 1: his women and four kids, ten, seven, three and a 258 00:15:48,276 --> 00:15:52,036 Speaker 1: ten month old. His pickup truck was actually parked in 259 00:15:52,116 --> 00:15:57,036 Speaker 1: the community clinic parking lot at the time, and I 260 00:15:57,076 --> 00:15:59,636 Speaker 1: asked him, you know, James, what makes it hard for 261 00:15:59,676 --> 00:16:02,796 Speaker 1: you to stay in the hospital, because I'm really worried 262 00:16:02,796 --> 00:16:05,516 Speaker 1: about you. You know, your heart is really sick and 263 00:16:05,596 --> 00:16:08,316 Speaker 1: that's probably because of the years of high blood pressure 264 00:16:09,116 --> 00:16:12,596 Speaker 1: weren't treated. And he said, look, my woman is slow. 265 00:16:12,996 --> 00:16:15,036 Speaker 1: What did he mean by that? I think he meant 266 00:16:15,076 --> 00:16:19,836 Speaker 1: that she had some developmental delay. Got it okay? And 267 00:16:19,996 --> 00:16:22,116 Speaker 1: he said, the most important thing to me is that 268 00:16:22,196 --> 00:16:25,236 Speaker 1: my kids get an education, because I didn't have that chance. 269 00:16:26,276 --> 00:16:28,876 Speaker 1: And he said, I go in at night when my 270 00:16:28,956 --> 00:16:31,156 Speaker 1: kids are asleep. I have to be back in the 271 00:16:31,196 --> 00:16:34,156 Speaker 1: car at seven to make sure they get breakfast and 272 00:16:34,156 --> 00:16:37,636 Speaker 1: I drive them to school. I can't afford to be 273 00:16:37,676 --> 00:16:40,356 Speaker 1: admitted in the hospital and every nine to ten days, 274 00:16:40,396 --> 00:16:42,436 Speaker 1: asked my tune up because that's what I can afford 275 00:16:42,476 --> 00:16:45,556 Speaker 1: to do. Wow. And I said, James, what makes it 276 00:16:45,596 --> 00:16:47,756 Speaker 1: hard for you to take your pills every day? And 277 00:16:47,836 --> 00:16:50,476 Speaker 1: he said, where am I going to put those pills? 278 00:16:51,516 --> 00:16:54,236 Speaker 1: I'm living in a car. And I said, you know, 279 00:16:54,276 --> 00:16:56,796 Speaker 1: why aren't you wearing your vest and he said, well, 280 00:16:56,836 --> 00:16:59,996 Speaker 1: I don't want my kids to get electrocuted if that 281 00:17:00,036 --> 00:17:03,436 Speaker 1: thing goes off. We're sitting on coils with James. What 282 00:17:03,476 --> 00:17:06,116 Speaker 1: we were able to do. And it was actually a 283 00:17:06,116 --> 00:17:10,116 Speaker 1: beautiful story until we sort of lost contact. But we 284 00:17:10,236 --> 00:17:13,476 Speaker 1: actually were able to get Department of Children and Family 285 00:17:13,476 --> 00:17:17,996 Speaker 1: Services involved with his consent, which is important, and they 286 00:17:18,036 --> 00:17:21,356 Speaker 1: were able to place him in an apartment, three bedroom apartment, 287 00:17:21,716 --> 00:17:24,236 Speaker 1: and he was able to start taking his pills. We 288 00:17:24,236 --> 00:17:27,556 Speaker 1: were able to get that defibrillator into him. Oh my goodness, 289 00:17:27,596 --> 00:17:31,956 Speaker 1: that's incredible. He came off hospice. This is what we do. One. 290 00:17:32,036 --> 00:17:37,276 Speaker 1: You have to listen first. Nobody was listening and understanding 291 00:17:37,316 --> 00:17:42,396 Speaker 1: that his houselessness was a symptom of greater issues. But 292 00:17:42,796 --> 00:17:45,436 Speaker 1: I think James is very illustrative in the sense that 293 00:17:45,796 --> 00:17:48,916 Speaker 1: houselessness is just a piece of his story. Putting him 294 00:17:48,956 --> 00:17:52,316 Speaker 1: in an apartment is just the beginning. And I think 295 00:17:52,316 --> 00:17:55,116 Speaker 1: that's what Housing for Health is trying to do. Is, Yes, 296 00:17:55,316 --> 00:17:59,396 Speaker 1: we need to give people access to roof and walls 297 00:17:59,476 --> 00:18:02,796 Speaker 1: and those basic levels of protection, but then we also 298 00:18:02,876 --> 00:18:09,556 Speaker 1: need to unpeel those layers of trauma and institutionalization, you know, 299 00:18:09,676 --> 00:18:13,116 Speaker 1: social and fiscal disenfranchisement and figure out, like, how do 300 00:18:13,196 --> 00:18:16,276 Speaker 1: we help this person get to where they want to go? Heidi, 301 00:18:16,316 --> 00:18:18,356 Speaker 1: can we spell this out using James as a model 302 00:18:18,356 --> 00:18:21,756 Speaker 1: to understand what you do. So, like you said, first 303 00:18:21,836 --> 00:18:24,116 Speaker 1: you had to have a contact with him, he had 304 00:18:24,156 --> 00:18:26,796 Speaker 1: to come in. Then you had to spend time listening 305 00:18:26,796 --> 00:18:29,676 Speaker 1: to him. And then you use a kind of housing 306 00:18:29,716 --> 00:18:32,116 Speaker 1: first model, which you know, as I've learned about, is 307 00:18:32,436 --> 00:18:34,756 Speaker 1: before someone can be helped in any other way, they 308 00:18:34,796 --> 00:18:37,956 Speaker 1: need they need a safe and you know, livable place 309 00:18:37,996 --> 00:18:41,156 Speaker 1: to be. But then you're talking about also housing first. 310 00:18:41,156 --> 00:18:43,996 Speaker 1: Then what comes second, third, fourth, fifth, And that seems 311 00:18:44,036 --> 00:18:45,836 Speaker 1: to be like what you do is is if it's 312 00:18:45,876 --> 00:18:48,396 Speaker 1: not radical, it's at least different. Can you unpack that 313 00:18:48,436 --> 00:18:50,876 Speaker 1: a little bit more? It really does take a village. 314 00:18:51,596 --> 00:18:54,276 Speaker 1: And so you know, what we're trying to build is, yes, 315 00:18:54,396 --> 00:18:58,396 Speaker 1: there's medical staff, but there's also social workers. There's also 316 00:18:58,556 --> 00:19:01,756 Speaker 1: peers what we call you know, what I call a 317 00:19:01,876 --> 00:19:07,076 Speaker 1: company tours, people who company people who maybe have lived experience, 318 00:19:07,076 --> 00:19:09,556 Speaker 1: who who share the journey with James. As trying to 319 00:19:09,636 --> 00:19:12,556 Speaker 1: navigate the system right and get what he needs. We 320 00:19:12,636 --> 00:19:16,276 Speaker 1: had to get the Department of Public Social Services involved 321 00:19:16,276 --> 00:19:19,236 Speaker 1: to get him income because one of the things that 322 00:19:19,276 --> 00:19:22,276 Speaker 1: we learned was James was selling his hospice meds to 323 00:19:22,396 --> 00:19:26,516 Speaker 1: provide for his family, and we had to get the 324 00:19:26,556 --> 00:19:30,236 Speaker 1: Department of Children and Family Services involved because they made 325 00:19:30,236 --> 00:19:32,796 Speaker 1: sure those kids got to school, they got them wick, 326 00:19:33,116 --> 00:19:36,316 Speaker 1: they got them closed, they got them housed, and they 327 00:19:36,356 --> 00:19:41,116 Speaker 1: provided respite care for mom. We were able to get 328 00:19:41,236 --> 00:19:44,516 Speaker 1: him connected to a program called Sea Beast to apply 329 00:19:44,596 --> 00:19:49,476 Speaker 1: for Social Security disability payments again to augment the income. 330 00:19:49,836 --> 00:19:53,916 Speaker 1: So all of that is what we call intensive care management, right, 331 00:19:54,116 --> 00:19:57,076 Speaker 1: making sure that people are getting access to the resources 332 00:19:57,116 --> 00:20:01,476 Speaker 1: they need to live as full of life as possible. Right. 333 00:20:01,756 --> 00:20:03,956 Speaker 1: And you can't discount the fact that these people have 334 00:20:04,356 --> 00:20:09,396 Speaker 1: incredible assets, right, And when you're thinking about a recovery model, 335 00:20:09,796 --> 00:20:11,836 Speaker 1: how do you build on those assets to help them 336 00:20:11,836 --> 00:20:14,996 Speaker 1: achieve wellness and purpose? And just to be clear, you're 337 00:20:15,116 --> 00:20:18,556 Speaker 1: using assets in the sense of his moral character, his 338 00:20:19,436 --> 00:20:23,636 Speaker 1: intellectual capacity and gifts, his thoughtfulness. You know, he's someone 339 00:20:23,636 --> 00:20:26,316 Speaker 1: who is in control and making good decisions as with 340 00:20:26,356 --> 00:20:30,036 Speaker 1: the limited resources he has. Absolutely, Heidi, I think this 341 00:20:30,076 --> 00:20:35,436 Speaker 1: story of James is incredibly illustrative of how important what 342 00:20:35,796 --> 00:20:40,196 Speaker 1: your organization and what your team does. And I'm curious 343 00:20:40,956 --> 00:20:45,556 Speaker 1: given that this individualized, intensive engagement with individuals like James, 344 00:20:45,556 --> 00:20:50,156 Speaker 1: and I'm sure their stories are as diverse and specific 345 00:20:50,196 --> 00:20:53,676 Speaker 1: to their circumstances, as one could imagine, there's a huge 346 00:20:53,716 --> 00:20:57,036 Speaker 1: population of homelessness. I mean, I'm out on the East 347 00:20:57,036 --> 00:21:00,276 Speaker 1: coast bends in the Midwest. You're in LA. I mean, 348 00:21:00,396 --> 00:21:02,876 Speaker 1: let's talk about how do you first of all, how 349 00:21:02,956 --> 00:21:05,796 Speaker 1: should we understand the scale of this problem, and how 350 00:21:05,876 --> 00:21:08,356 Speaker 1: you and your organization think about addressing the skill of 351 00:21:08,356 --> 00:21:12,276 Speaker 1: that problem. Yeah, so you know New York in LA 352 00:21:12,476 --> 00:21:16,516 Speaker 1: or I shouldn't say competing for because that would suggest 353 00:21:16,556 --> 00:21:19,636 Speaker 1: that it's a good thing, but for the country's sort 354 00:21:19,636 --> 00:21:24,516 Speaker 1: of worse houselessness problem. They're at last count close to 355 00:21:24,556 --> 00:21:28,596 Speaker 1: seventy thousand houseless people in Los Angeles County. And how 356 00:21:29,156 --> 00:21:33,156 Speaker 1: does that mean people living on the street, living in shelters? Like, 357 00:21:33,196 --> 00:21:36,516 Speaker 1: what's the that's right? And the majority of people Unlike 358 00:21:36,596 --> 00:21:40,956 Speaker 1: New York, where sort of the houseless individuals are somewhat 359 00:21:41,036 --> 00:21:43,436 Speaker 1: hidden because it's a right to shelter state, you don't 360 00:21:43,556 --> 00:21:45,996 Speaker 1: see them as much as you do in LA, the 361 00:21:45,996 --> 00:21:48,876 Speaker 1: majority of people I eat, close to fifty thousand of 362 00:21:48,916 --> 00:21:52,436 Speaker 1: the seventy thousand in LA County are unsheltered. Okay, so 363 00:21:52,916 --> 00:21:55,676 Speaker 1: let's just talk a little bit about how you and 364 00:21:55,716 --> 00:21:58,236 Speaker 1: your organization come to terms with what you're facing on 365 00:21:58,276 --> 00:22:01,196 Speaker 1: the streets of Los Angeles. In terms of the scale 366 00:22:01,196 --> 00:22:04,036 Speaker 1: of the operation that you oversee, I'm curious what you 367 00:22:04,116 --> 00:22:06,956 Speaker 1: have right now, Like, I just want to see the operation, 368 00:22:07,396 --> 00:22:10,116 Speaker 1: So tell us, like how many people, Like what what's 369 00:22:10,156 --> 00:22:13,596 Speaker 1: the operation look like right now? In housing? We have 370 00:22:13,636 --> 00:22:19,196 Speaker 1: about nineteen thousand individuals. Amazing, It's incredible. Yeah, Okay, we're 371 00:22:19,236 --> 00:22:23,316 Speaker 1: also providing intensive case management services. Heidi. We're going to 372 00:22:23,396 --> 00:22:25,796 Speaker 1: take a quick break, but I just want to say 373 00:22:25,836 --> 00:22:28,836 Speaker 1: before the break that you know, you said James schooled you. 374 00:22:28,836 --> 00:22:31,396 Speaker 1: You just schooled us that in a way. We asked 375 00:22:31,436 --> 00:22:35,716 Speaker 1: you about about houselessness, and we wanted to hear about 376 00:22:35,756 --> 00:22:39,396 Speaker 1: people on the street, and you talked about medical care, 377 00:22:39,516 --> 00:22:42,396 Speaker 1: you talked about people's past. You schooled us on all 378 00:22:42,436 --> 00:22:44,516 Speaker 1: that's behind it, you know, the thing we might see 379 00:22:44,516 --> 00:22:46,996 Speaker 1: on the street. You're talking about the much deeper, deeper 380 00:22:47,036 --> 00:22:49,596 Speaker 1: problems that you have to address. When we come back, 381 00:22:49,596 --> 00:22:51,716 Speaker 1: we're going to talk to Heidi about her past and 382 00:22:51,756 --> 00:23:12,236 Speaker 1: how she got into this work. So, Heidi, this is 383 00:23:12,276 --> 00:23:15,356 Speaker 1: just an incredible conversation. And Ben and I are learning 384 00:23:15,356 --> 00:23:17,476 Speaker 1: so much, right Ben, You're learning a lot, I am. 385 00:23:17,516 --> 00:23:20,316 Speaker 1: I am. Yeah, Yeah, and listen We want to know 386 00:23:20,356 --> 00:23:22,436 Speaker 1: more about you. We want to know how did you 387 00:23:22,636 --> 00:23:26,236 Speaker 1: come to take on this incredibly challenging work. I was 388 00:23:26,276 --> 00:23:30,476 Speaker 1: born in Iran. I lived there till after the Iranian Revolution, 389 00:23:30,596 --> 00:23:33,836 Speaker 1: my family immigrated here. I think one of the things 390 00:23:33,916 --> 00:23:37,756 Speaker 1: that was just a tremendous experience for me my father 391 00:23:38,356 --> 00:23:41,996 Speaker 1: grew up very poor in a small dirt village near 392 00:23:41,996 --> 00:23:46,236 Speaker 1: the Afhani border, and just visiting his old home and 393 00:23:46,916 --> 00:23:52,356 Speaker 1: recognizing that despite what some would deem poverty, there was 394 00:23:52,396 --> 00:23:58,916 Speaker 1: an incredible richness and community. And my understanding and appreciation 395 00:23:59,196 --> 00:24:05,596 Speaker 1: for resilience and beauty in the face of material suffering, 396 00:24:06,996 --> 00:24:12,556 Speaker 1: and recognizing that every person deserves the opportunity to create 397 00:24:12,836 --> 00:24:15,996 Speaker 1: a community as they define it. And I think one 398 00:24:16,036 --> 00:24:18,716 Speaker 1: of the things that has always struck me in this 399 00:24:18,796 --> 00:24:23,836 Speaker 1: country is the incredible inequality. And I used to talk 400 00:24:23,836 --> 00:24:26,556 Speaker 1: about this with my mentor, Paul Farmer, because I worked 401 00:24:26,556 --> 00:24:28,756 Speaker 1: with partners in health from the time I was in 402 00:24:28,836 --> 00:24:32,036 Speaker 1: medical school. That's huge. Okay, so let's let's just stop 403 00:24:32,036 --> 00:24:33,796 Speaker 1: for a seconds. Oh yes, so we weren't talking about 404 00:24:33,796 --> 00:24:36,636 Speaker 1: Paul Farmer, but our listeners won't all know, So give 405 00:24:36,716 --> 00:24:39,196 Speaker 1: us a brief like boiler play, this is the guy 406 00:24:39,316 --> 00:24:42,516 Speaker 1: who did X, Y and Z. All right, So, when 407 00:24:42,556 --> 00:24:44,196 Speaker 1: I was in medical school in Boston, I was at 408 00:24:44,196 --> 00:24:47,396 Speaker 1: Harvard Medical School. I was very interested in going back 409 00:24:47,396 --> 00:24:50,436 Speaker 1: to ran and I wanted to spend a summer looking 410 00:24:50,476 --> 00:24:54,236 Speaker 1: at sort of the circumstances and nomadic tribes in south 411 00:24:54,236 --> 00:24:57,676 Speaker 1: central I run around Shiraz, where I grew up. And 412 00:24:57,716 --> 00:25:00,076 Speaker 1: I was struggling with getting through the Ministry of Health 413 00:25:00,116 --> 00:25:02,756 Speaker 1: that wanted to stick me in a chemistry lap instead. 414 00:25:03,316 --> 00:25:06,876 Speaker 1: And I went to Paul Farmer because Paul was working 415 00:25:06,876 --> 00:25:09,876 Speaker 1: in Haiti with a program called Partners in Health, and 416 00:25:09,916 --> 00:25:11,916 Speaker 1: this is a program he helped to found in nineteen 417 00:25:11,956 --> 00:25:16,476 Speaker 1: eighty seven. That's right to address HIV, the crisis of 418 00:25:16,636 --> 00:25:19,516 Speaker 1: HIV happening in Haiti at the time. That's right. You 419 00:25:19,556 --> 00:25:23,636 Speaker 1: know your stuff, Khalil, he does, Okay. Paul's big take 420 00:25:23,916 --> 00:25:28,596 Speaker 1: was making a preferential healthcare option for the poor. I 421 00:25:28,596 --> 00:25:31,196 Speaker 1: don't even want to just go there and give them 422 00:25:31,436 --> 00:25:34,556 Speaker 1: band Aid care. I want to build an Ivory tower 423 00:25:34,636 --> 00:25:37,316 Speaker 1: where they get as good a care, if not better 424 00:25:37,356 --> 00:25:41,036 Speaker 1: care than what a Harvard Medical School teaching hospital provides. 425 00:25:41,476 --> 00:25:45,036 Speaker 1: And that was Paul. I want to ask this another question, 426 00:25:45,316 --> 00:25:50,116 Speaker 1: Paul Farmer related. I'm interested in this jump from this 427 00:25:50,116 --> 00:25:53,036 Speaker 1: work that we imagine, like you know, doctors without borders. 428 00:25:53,116 --> 00:25:55,556 Speaker 1: We can do stuff in other countries other like third 429 00:25:55,596 --> 00:25:58,676 Speaker 1: world in quote countries, but we can't do things next door. 430 00:25:58,836 --> 00:26:01,476 Speaker 1: Like so like this kind of philosophy where you put 431 00:26:01,476 --> 00:26:03,276 Speaker 1: this in practice, I want to hear about that, like 432 00:26:03,636 --> 00:26:05,596 Speaker 1: that it's right here at our doorstep and we can 433 00:26:05,596 --> 00:26:08,716 Speaker 1: do the work here. That's right. One of the key differences, 434 00:26:09,196 --> 00:26:11,036 Speaker 1: this is what I was getting to that I talked 435 00:26:11,036 --> 00:26:14,316 Speaker 1: to Paul a lot about, is that it's different when 436 00:26:14,396 --> 00:26:17,476 Speaker 1: you go into an area that has nothing and you 437 00:26:17,516 --> 00:26:20,156 Speaker 1: build it, whereas you go into a place that should 438 00:26:20,236 --> 00:26:23,916 Speaker 1: have everything but people can't access it or utilize it. 439 00:26:23,916 --> 00:26:28,156 Speaker 1: It's a very different set of problems. That's really helpful. Distinction. 440 00:26:28,476 --> 00:26:31,196 Speaker 1: In the United States, you're always near everything, is what 441 00:26:31,196 --> 00:26:35,556 Speaker 1: you're saying, like right, but there are structural forces that 442 00:26:35,676 --> 00:26:40,676 Speaker 1: prohibit everybody from accessing and utilizing those services. And in 443 00:26:40,716 --> 00:26:44,556 Speaker 1: some ways, I think the psychology of being a poor 444 00:26:44,596 --> 00:26:49,036 Speaker 1: black man in Roxbury is very different, not better or worse, 445 00:26:49,116 --> 00:26:51,356 Speaker 1: but very different than being a psychology of a poor 446 00:26:51,396 --> 00:26:54,836 Speaker 1: black man in that squater settlement in Haiti. And I 447 00:26:54,876 --> 00:26:59,036 Speaker 1: think you have to understand that to know like, what 448 00:26:59,236 --> 00:27:02,036 Speaker 1: is it that we have to help build within that 449 00:27:02,036 --> 00:27:03,916 Speaker 1: one individual? But what do we have to do to 450 00:27:03,996 --> 00:27:09,596 Speaker 1: sort of dismantle or confront the structural violence that's peating 451 00:27:09,676 --> 00:27:14,956 Speaker 1: his utilization of resources? Not just healthcare, right, but when 452 00:27:14,996 --> 00:27:21,156 Speaker 1: you think about employment discrimination, housing discrimination, mass incarceration, the 453 00:27:21,276 --> 00:27:24,116 Speaker 1: exposure to violence and the lack of safety from violence 454 00:27:24,196 --> 00:27:27,116 Speaker 1: even from the state, what does that do to someone? 455 00:27:27,276 --> 00:27:31,196 Speaker 1: And I'll tell you. I was twenty years old. I 456 00:27:31,316 --> 00:27:36,516 Speaker 1: was walking down the median of Columbus av in Eggleston Square, 457 00:27:36,636 --> 00:27:39,396 Speaker 1: Khalil you know this, And I was walking with Eric, 458 00:27:39,516 --> 00:27:43,676 Speaker 1: who was a teenager eighteen year old black kid, played 459 00:27:43,676 --> 00:27:48,276 Speaker 1: football in high school, Beautiful Soul. And we were going 460 00:27:48,716 --> 00:27:53,276 Speaker 1: down the street and we've just heard the car doors 461 00:27:53,716 --> 00:27:58,996 Speaker 1: locking click click click click click, And Eric turned to 462 00:27:59,036 --> 00:28:01,516 Speaker 1: me and he said, this is what I live with. 463 00:28:02,396 --> 00:28:05,196 Speaker 1: What does that do to you? And realizing that the 464 00:28:05,236 --> 00:28:08,156 Speaker 1: work that we were going to do in Roxbury and 465 00:28:09,116 --> 00:28:13,396 Speaker 1: Worchester wasn't just about going to people and saying, hey, 466 00:28:13,596 --> 00:28:16,236 Speaker 1: you should get healthcare insurance or you should go see 467 00:28:16,236 --> 00:28:18,676 Speaker 1: a doctor for that, but it was like, why why 468 00:28:18,716 --> 00:28:21,796 Speaker 1: are they not going? How are they treated? When they're there. 469 00:28:22,316 --> 00:28:23,756 Speaker 1: And I think one of the things that we were 470 00:28:23,756 --> 00:28:26,476 Speaker 1: able to bring from Haiti is this accompany term model 471 00:28:26,636 --> 00:28:30,636 Speaker 1: is we needed to have like people alongside accompanying them, 472 00:28:31,556 --> 00:28:34,116 Speaker 1: that act of witnessing. When you have someone by your 473 00:28:34,156 --> 00:28:37,596 Speaker 1: side who's standing there, that person behind the front desk 474 00:28:37,836 --> 00:28:39,756 Speaker 1: may be going to treat you a little better. Different 475 00:28:39,956 --> 00:28:43,316 Speaker 1: right when you have someone in that office with you 476 00:28:43,476 --> 00:28:45,956 Speaker 1: while the doctor's talking to you, maybe the doctor will 477 00:28:45,996 --> 00:28:49,396 Speaker 1: listen a little better. A patient advocate, which has probably 478 00:28:49,436 --> 00:28:51,916 Speaker 1: in the last twenty five year, has become a huge 479 00:28:52,316 --> 00:28:55,276 Speaker 1: part of the movement for a patient bill of rights. 480 00:28:55,276 --> 00:28:58,596 Speaker 1: And my mother, who's elderly. Ben's parents are elderly. You know, 481 00:28:58,636 --> 00:29:02,796 Speaker 1: we're keenly aware that we sometimes have to be there 482 00:29:02,836 --> 00:29:06,396 Speaker 1: for our parents when they're having conversations with doctors, because 483 00:29:06,396 --> 00:29:09,476 Speaker 1: in the routinization of just like, hey, this is another 484 00:29:09,476 --> 00:29:11,076 Speaker 1: old portion of my office and they're either going to 485 00:29:11,116 --> 00:29:13,756 Speaker 1: follow my orders or not, you have to step up 486 00:29:13,796 --> 00:29:16,436 Speaker 1: and say, hey, let's slow this down. Let's make sure 487 00:29:16,596 --> 00:29:19,796 Speaker 1: that my mom understands exactly what you're saying. That's really 488 00:29:19,796 --> 00:29:23,916 Speaker 1: fascinating to understand that model coming from Haiti here into 489 00:29:23,956 --> 00:29:27,276 Speaker 1: the Boston area and Roxberry as a way of really 490 00:29:27,316 --> 00:29:33,596 Speaker 1: addressing this crazy complex landscape of structural barriers and structural 491 00:29:33,716 --> 00:29:37,356 Speaker 1: violence that you've talked about that people like Eric were experiencing. Yeah, 492 00:29:37,396 --> 00:29:39,716 Speaker 1: And I think the other thing that we brought with 493 00:29:39,796 --> 00:29:43,596 Speaker 1: us was accompaniment is for life. There's this concept in 494 00:29:44,156 --> 00:29:46,476 Speaker 1: the United States, it's very cultural, which is, hey, you 495 00:29:46,476 --> 00:29:48,996 Speaker 1: should be able to like pull yourself up by your bootstraps. 496 00:29:48,996 --> 00:29:51,356 Speaker 1: We'll give you a leg up. Ah, there it is. 497 00:29:51,676 --> 00:29:54,196 Speaker 1: We'll give you that little welfare check or we'll give 498 00:29:54,196 --> 00:29:56,116 Speaker 1: you a general relief and then you know, you should 499 00:29:56,116 --> 00:29:59,516 Speaker 1: be good. Yes. And a lot of times when I 500 00:29:59,596 --> 00:30:02,916 Speaker 1: was submitting grant proposals for these accompany tours, I'd be like, well, 501 00:30:02,916 --> 00:30:04,756 Speaker 1: how long how long do they have to be there? 502 00:30:04,836 --> 00:30:06,996 Speaker 1: Is it like six months? And then you could dismount, 503 00:30:07,156 --> 00:30:10,036 Speaker 1: taper off and when it things that you know, the 504 00:30:10,076 --> 00:30:14,716 Speaker 1: accompanytors in Haiti taught us was they have AIDS or 505 00:30:14,756 --> 00:30:18,196 Speaker 1: they're living in poverty, they don't have a thatch roof 506 00:30:18,636 --> 00:30:22,156 Speaker 1: that doesn't leak over their heads. For life. So I'm 507 00:30:22,196 --> 00:30:25,436 Speaker 1: here for life. And it's sort of that concept, which 508 00:30:25,476 --> 00:30:30,996 Speaker 1: is sort of antithetical to our esthetic in the United States, 509 00:30:31,036 --> 00:30:34,876 Speaker 1: that I really struggled with because everybody wanted to see 510 00:30:34,916 --> 00:30:38,396 Speaker 1: what is a short term return on investment? Oh my goodness, yeah, 511 00:30:38,436 --> 00:30:41,436 Speaker 1: return on investment. I mean what you do, Heidi is 512 00:30:41,476 --> 00:30:45,476 Speaker 1: obviously very expensive and requires so much coordination between so 513 00:30:45,476 --> 00:30:48,796 Speaker 1: many different groups, and yet there are all these savings. 514 00:30:48,876 --> 00:30:51,916 Speaker 1: There is a return on investment you were talking about, James, 515 00:30:52,196 --> 00:30:55,516 Speaker 1: he goes to the emergency room all the time. That's 516 00:30:55,556 --> 00:30:58,796 Speaker 1: crazy expensive. They are these savings. In the end, you're saying, 517 00:30:58,836 --> 00:31:01,196 Speaker 1: on the side of the status quo is wasting a 518 00:31:01,236 --> 00:31:04,036 Speaker 1: ton of resources as it is as opposed to the 519 00:31:04,116 --> 00:31:07,116 Speaker 1: upfront cost of a program like this, It's clear. But 520 00:31:07,316 --> 00:31:10,556 Speaker 1: what happens Ben, which is really interest interesting, is when 521 00:31:10,596 --> 00:31:12,996 Speaker 1: people stop feeling the pain in the short term, Right, 522 00:31:13,076 --> 00:31:15,476 Speaker 1: James isn't going to the hospital in the emergency room, 523 00:31:15,516 --> 00:31:17,356 Speaker 1: and we're like, okay, we're going to keep them out 524 00:31:17,756 --> 00:31:21,356 Speaker 1: by keeping them housed, by keeping those services going. Then 525 00:31:21,396 --> 00:31:23,516 Speaker 1: the healthcare system is like, why is it on me 526 00:31:23,836 --> 00:31:26,036 Speaker 1: to house James? But I'm like, well, who else is 527 00:31:26,036 --> 00:31:28,636 Speaker 1: it going to be on? Right? We keep pointing the fingers, 528 00:31:29,036 --> 00:31:31,876 Speaker 1: and then meanwhile it gets dropped because it's no longer 529 00:31:31,996 --> 00:31:35,956 Speaker 1: viewed as fiscally sustainable. Or as a healthcare problem. It's 530 00:31:36,116 --> 00:31:40,236 Speaker 1: James's poverty problem. That's right. We want to take another break, 531 00:31:40,476 --> 00:31:43,716 Speaker 1: and you touched on a raw nerve for both Ben 532 00:31:43,756 --> 00:31:47,236 Speaker 1: and me, and that is this intersection of the politics 533 00:31:47,236 --> 00:31:51,956 Speaker 1: of houselessness, this idea that people are responsible for themselves, 534 00:31:52,036 --> 00:31:54,396 Speaker 1: that we live in a society where everyone has the 535 00:31:54,396 --> 00:31:57,756 Speaker 1: opportunity to live their best lives, and if they don't, 536 00:31:57,836 --> 00:31:59,996 Speaker 1: it's on them. And so there's only so much we 537 00:32:00,036 --> 00:32:01,676 Speaker 1: can do to help you. And it seems to me 538 00:32:01,756 --> 00:32:04,076 Speaker 1: that what Paul Farmer and Partners in Health have shown 539 00:32:04,596 --> 00:32:07,476 Speaker 1: is that America's got it wrong. So after the break, 540 00:32:07,556 --> 00:32:10,396 Speaker 1: let's come back and talk about how we think about 541 00:32:10,396 --> 00:32:13,436 Speaker 1: this model scaling up and why it isn't happening elsewhere. 542 00:32:31,716 --> 00:32:35,836 Speaker 1: We are back with Heidi Beferus of Los Angeles County, 543 00:32:36,156 --> 00:32:40,716 Speaker 1: who runs Housing for Health there. And Heidi, you guys 544 00:32:40,756 --> 00:32:43,796 Speaker 1: serve nearly twenty thousand people. You just told us that, 545 00:32:43,916 --> 00:32:47,396 Speaker 1: which is an extraordinary number. And partly what you're telling 546 00:32:47,476 --> 00:32:51,436 Speaker 1: us is that the model that you're describing housing first, 547 00:32:51,596 --> 00:32:55,076 Speaker 1: but then all these other wraparound services and coordinating them, 548 00:32:55,116 --> 00:32:58,916 Speaker 1: that it works. And that's powerful to hear. It's a 549 00:32:58,956 --> 00:33:01,836 Speaker 1: better use of resources. So then then it begs the 550 00:33:01,876 --> 00:33:05,956 Speaker 1: obvious question is like, why aren't more places doing it? 551 00:33:06,036 --> 00:33:08,876 Speaker 1: Why aren't more cities and states and municipalities in the 552 00:33:08,916 --> 00:33:12,796 Speaker 1: United States doing exactly what you're doing. I think they're trying. 553 00:33:12,836 --> 00:33:15,396 Speaker 1: I think it fundamentally comes down to an issue of 554 00:33:15,436 --> 00:33:19,556 Speaker 1: like money and politics, okay, and I think that I'm 555 00:33:19,676 --> 00:33:22,476 Speaker 1: very fortunate to live in California in the sense that 556 00:33:23,676 --> 00:33:25,876 Speaker 1: the public is committed to this. You know, we got 557 00:33:25,916 --> 00:33:28,676 Speaker 1: Measure H, which is huge funding that has allowed us 558 00:33:28,716 --> 00:33:34,396 Speaker 1: to build. Tell us what that is, because we're not Californians. Yeah. So, 559 00:33:34,396 --> 00:33:38,796 Speaker 1: so Measure was passed a little bit over five years ago, 560 00:33:39,516 --> 00:33:41,996 Speaker 1: and basically what it was is like the people in 561 00:33:42,116 --> 00:33:44,356 Speaker 1: La County said, yeah, I'm worried about this, so I'm 562 00:33:44,356 --> 00:33:47,516 Speaker 1: willing to pay a quarter cent tax to invest in 563 00:33:48,076 --> 00:33:50,796 Speaker 1: our houselessness problem. And when you said this, I'm worried 564 00:33:50,836 --> 00:33:54,796 Speaker 1: about this. Everyone is seeing people on the streets unavoidable. 565 00:33:54,956 --> 00:33:57,836 Speaker 1: They're like, this is a crisis. We want this addressed 566 00:33:57,836 --> 00:34:00,796 Speaker 1: in some way. A quarter cent tax and what's it 567 00:34:00,836 --> 00:34:04,516 Speaker 1: going to do. It's one billion over like the ten years. 568 00:34:05,156 --> 00:34:08,316 Speaker 1: It's a start, right, but it's not enough to build 569 00:34:08,476 --> 00:34:10,716 Speaker 1: the housing and provide the services that we need given 570 00:34:10,716 --> 00:34:14,196 Speaker 1: the scale of the problem. But also when you think 571 00:34:14,236 --> 00:34:17,836 Speaker 1: about what has sort of prevented us from building housing, 572 00:34:18,036 --> 00:34:22,356 Speaker 1: a lot of it comes back to like redlining, all 573 00:34:22,356 --> 00:34:26,236 Speaker 1: of the issues around the zoning laws, the community sort 574 00:34:26,276 --> 00:34:29,436 Speaker 1: of uproar about putting in housing. Those things get in 575 00:34:29,476 --> 00:34:32,916 Speaker 1: the way of building housing quickly. Those are the politics 576 00:34:32,916 --> 00:34:36,036 Speaker 1: that you're referring to. Those are the politics that we, 577 00:34:36,276 --> 00:34:38,636 Speaker 1: you know, we have to overcome. I'm chomping at the 578 00:34:38,676 --> 00:34:40,316 Speaker 1: bit to kind of put a little color on this, 579 00:34:40,436 --> 00:34:43,916 Speaker 1: so I remember Mayor is it London Breed? Is that 580 00:34:43,996 --> 00:34:49,836 Speaker 1: her name? In San Francisco, she opposed attacks on high 581 00:34:49,876 --> 00:34:55,036 Speaker 1: revenue companies in the tech center after Salesforce CEO was 582 00:34:55,316 --> 00:34:58,876 Speaker 1: proposing attacks on every company above a certain amount of 583 00:34:58,916 --> 00:35:01,396 Speaker 1: revenue to say, look, you know, if we tax ourselves, 584 00:35:01,436 --> 00:35:05,116 Speaker 1: we are incredibly wealthy people, we can help to solve 585 00:35:05,156 --> 00:35:08,676 Speaker 1: this problem of houselessness in our city. And Mayor Breed, 586 00:35:08,676 --> 00:35:12,156 Speaker 1: who's a black woman, was essentially saying, no, we shouldn't 587 00:35:12,196 --> 00:35:14,196 Speaker 1: do this. And why was she saying it. She was 588 00:35:14,236 --> 00:35:16,596 Speaker 1: saying it because she didn't want to create this scene 589 00:35:16,596 --> 00:35:19,956 Speaker 1: of dependency where there'd be a sign at the border 590 00:35:19,996 --> 00:35:22,636 Speaker 1: of San Francisco, saying you know, all poor people, welcome 591 00:35:22,636 --> 00:35:24,356 Speaker 1: to San Francisco. We're going to take care of all 592 00:35:24,396 --> 00:35:30,556 Speaker 1: your needs. And this like tension between a society that 593 00:35:30,716 --> 00:35:34,116 Speaker 1: is built on inequality, there's no way around it. Capitalism 594 00:35:34,196 --> 00:35:37,716 Speaker 1: built on inequality, there will be winners and by DeLine losers. 595 00:35:38,316 --> 00:35:42,476 Speaker 1: Then has this mythology attached to it that those losers 596 00:35:42,516 --> 00:35:45,636 Speaker 1: are to blame for losing in this race to the top. 597 00:35:46,116 --> 00:35:48,116 Speaker 1: Some of us might be surprised to think of, like 598 00:35:48,196 --> 00:35:52,836 Speaker 1: the pushback that comes when these solutions are proposed and 599 00:35:52,956 --> 00:35:55,156 Speaker 1: people are willing to tax themselves to pay for them. 600 00:35:55,276 --> 00:35:59,636 Speaker 1: It's outrageous, it is, it's nonsensical. You're absolutely right, Khalil, 601 00:35:59,716 --> 00:36:02,076 Speaker 1: And I think like you know, when you think about 602 00:36:02,236 --> 00:36:06,756 Speaker 1: how people talk about people experiencing houselessness, and I'm seeing 603 00:36:06,796 --> 00:36:09,356 Speaker 1: it now where I live, where you're seeing more in 604 00:36:09,396 --> 00:36:13,476 Speaker 1: more people houseless on the street. It's unbelievable. The rancor 605 00:36:13,636 --> 00:36:16,036 Speaker 1: and they've never taken the time to listen or to 606 00:36:16,116 --> 00:36:19,196 Speaker 1: really understand. There's a lack of imagination in addition to 607 00:36:19,236 --> 00:36:22,316 Speaker 1: a lack of empathy. And how do we fight that 608 00:36:22,796 --> 00:36:26,796 Speaker 1: when our society, like you said, is built on this 609 00:36:26,956 --> 00:36:30,316 Speaker 1: concept of inequality and for those to have there have 610 00:36:30,476 --> 00:36:33,956 Speaker 1: to be those who don't. Yeah, And I think that 611 00:36:34,076 --> 00:36:36,756 Speaker 1: it's something that keeps me up at night is how 612 00:36:36,796 --> 00:36:39,476 Speaker 1: do we have that conversation, how do we make this 613 00:36:39,556 --> 00:36:43,356 Speaker 1: into a collective we problem as opposed to you need 614 00:36:43,396 --> 00:36:47,036 Speaker 1: to fix this. They're having this conversation in New York 615 00:36:47,116 --> 00:36:48,916 Speaker 1: right then? Yeah, I mean that Khalil and I are 616 00:36:48,916 --> 00:36:51,076 Speaker 1: talking about that collective we all the time, I mean, 617 00:36:51,076 --> 00:36:54,276 Speaker 1: and sort of thinking about our nation's problems. Maybe another 618 00:36:54,316 --> 00:36:56,556 Speaker 1: way to think about this is like why don't more 619 00:36:57,236 --> 00:37:00,356 Speaker 1: municipalities do this? Is to ask about what's going on 620 00:37:00,436 --> 00:37:02,996 Speaker 1: in New York now? And so in December, the mayor there, 621 00:37:03,276 --> 00:37:06,476 Speaker 1: Eric Adams, said it was a priority to clear the 622 00:37:06,516 --> 00:37:10,956 Speaker 1: homeless from the streets and even to remove people and 623 00:37:11,076 --> 00:37:13,876 Speaker 1: hospitalize them even if they don't want to go. What's 624 00:37:13,876 --> 00:37:16,716 Speaker 1: wrong or right about that approach school us a little 625 00:37:16,756 --> 00:37:18,716 Speaker 1: bit more? Well, I think the first thing I would 626 00:37:18,756 --> 00:37:22,596 Speaker 1: say is confronting it. Even if the tool you're you're 627 00:37:22,716 --> 00:37:25,236 Speaker 1: using isn't the right one, is good. So I have 628 00:37:25,276 --> 00:37:27,476 Speaker 1: to give them props for that, right, as opposed to 629 00:37:27,516 --> 00:37:32,316 Speaker 1: saying like, hey, we got this. The problem is that 630 00:37:33,276 --> 00:37:36,796 Speaker 1: this isn't a hospital problem houselessness? Isn't it something that 631 00:37:36,796 --> 00:37:39,916 Speaker 1: the going to the emergency room is going to fix? Yeah, 632 00:37:40,516 --> 00:37:46,716 Speaker 1: here we are sending people who are houseless, traumatized, may 633 00:37:46,836 --> 00:37:50,836 Speaker 1: have comorbid mental health substance use issues, and saying to 634 00:37:50,876 --> 00:37:55,036 Speaker 1: the emergency room do something. Just we got to get 635 00:37:55,116 --> 00:37:57,676 Speaker 1: them off the street. What is the emergency room staff 636 00:37:57,756 --> 00:38:01,356 Speaker 1: supposed to do? Are they supposed to miraculously be able 637 00:38:01,396 --> 00:38:05,556 Speaker 1: to find permanent housing or they just like stabilize them 638 00:38:05,556 --> 00:38:07,396 Speaker 1: And what does that mean? And then put them into 639 00:38:07,396 --> 00:38:09,876 Speaker 1: a shelter? And then what that shelter keeps them and 640 00:38:09,916 --> 00:38:12,436 Speaker 1: they don't end up back on the street. Right, So 641 00:38:12,476 --> 00:38:16,916 Speaker 1: it's sort of like it's not the right approach. It 642 00:38:16,956 --> 00:38:20,476 Speaker 1: makes you feel like you're doing something, but you're really 643 00:38:20,476 --> 00:38:24,556 Speaker 1: re traumatizing not only the people who are experiencing houselessness, 644 00:38:24,956 --> 00:38:28,036 Speaker 1: but also like that emergency room staff. What does that 645 00:38:28,236 --> 00:38:31,116 Speaker 1: feel like? Yeah? So I just want to get this straight. 646 00:38:31,156 --> 00:38:34,396 Speaker 1: So is it just shuffling people to somewhere else that 647 00:38:34,396 --> 00:38:36,876 Speaker 1: they're eventually going to shuffle back? Meaning if you say 648 00:38:37,156 --> 00:38:38,836 Speaker 1: we're going to send it to the emergency room, but 649 00:38:38,876 --> 00:38:42,956 Speaker 1: if there's no larger systemic solution and like an organization 650 00:38:42,996 --> 00:38:45,636 Speaker 1: like yours that is thinking about how all these different 651 00:38:45,636 --> 00:38:48,196 Speaker 1: pieces work together, and there's sort of these long term 652 00:38:48,236 --> 00:38:51,596 Speaker 1: holistic solutions. It's just moving someone away for a little 653 00:38:51,596 --> 00:38:53,956 Speaker 1: while until they go back. Yeah, And I think there 654 00:38:53,956 --> 00:38:56,556 Speaker 1: are plenty of great organizations in New York that are 655 00:38:56,596 --> 00:38:59,236 Speaker 1: doing similar work to housing for health. I think the 656 00:38:59,356 --> 00:39:03,676 Speaker 1: issue there is the stock of housing again. Right, So 657 00:39:03,876 --> 00:39:07,996 Speaker 1: if the fundamental solution to addressing homelessness or houselessness is 658 00:39:08,036 --> 00:39:12,076 Speaker 1: having housing stock housing first, you do need that first step. 659 00:39:12,116 --> 00:39:14,156 Speaker 1: You do second, third, fourth, fifth, but you need that 660 00:39:14,196 --> 00:39:17,796 Speaker 1: first step. You need that first, and then you have 661 00:39:17,996 --> 00:39:22,316 Speaker 1: the resources to provide those supportive services in that intensive 662 00:39:22,316 --> 00:39:26,516 Speaker 1: care management, in that trauma informed way to keep people 663 00:39:26,596 --> 00:39:29,996 Speaker 1: housed and support them towards achieving wellness. And that's what 664 00:39:30,116 --> 00:39:32,436 Speaker 1: needs to sort of be invested in. Then I've been 665 00:39:32,436 --> 00:39:35,556 Speaker 1: thinking about your question about New York, and obviously I'm 666 00:39:35,596 --> 00:39:37,836 Speaker 1: in the media bubble of the city and so I 667 00:39:37,916 --> 00:39:40,196 Speaker 1: hear these stories a lot. And one of the things 668 00:39:40,276 --> 00:39:43,676 Speaker 1: I'm struck by, which connects with Heidi's sort of story 669 00:39:43,716 --> 00:39:50,356 Speaker 1: about the notes in James's file, about his lack of appreciation, 670 00:39:50,636 --> 00:39:54,756 Speaker 1: his aggression, his defiance, you know, James was being criminalized 671 00:39:54,756 --> 00:39:59,036 Speaker 1: in a way. He was made to be undeserving of 672 00:39:59,076 --> 00:40:02,476 Speaker 1: the attention that he was getting. That was not that 673 00:40:02,596 --> 00:40:04,676 Speaker 1: was failing to meet his needs. And it strikes me 674 00:40:04,716 --> 00:40:08,076 Speaker 1: that that Eric Adams is doing two things. He is 675 00:40:08,316 --> 00:40:12,236 Speaker 1: calling for greater hospitalization and he is calling for some 676 00:40:12,316 --> 00:40:16,876 Speaker 1: of the vacant office buildings downtown to be converted to 677 00:40:17,556 --> 00:40:21,196 Speaker 1: either temporary or permanent housing four houseless people. I think 678 00:40:21,196 --> 00:40:24,276 Speaker 1: that's a good thing because COVID has created vacancy rates 679 00:40:24,276 --> 00:40:26,756 Speaker 1: in office buildings downtown, which means there's just a lot 680 00:40:26,756 --> 00:40:28,916 Speaker 1: of empty space currently and the city is trying to 681 00:40:28,916 --> 00:40:30,836 Speaker 1: figure out a way to use some of that space. 682 00:40:30,956 --> 00:40:32,876 Speaker 1: And maybe to a surprise to a lot of people, 683 00:40:32,916 --> 00:40:37,636 Speaker 1: New York has long used hotels. They've rented entire floors 684 00:40:37,636 --> 00:40:40,556 Speaker 1: of hotels for the purposes of housing people. So I 685 00:40:40,596 --> 00:40:43,036 Speaker 1: think Heidi's right about that there is a spirit of 686 00:40:43,396 --> 00:40:47,196 Speaker 1: goodwill and there are effective ways in which people do 687 00:40:47,316 --> 00:40:52,716 Speaker 1: get help, But there's a spirit of meanness right now 688 00:40:53,036 --> 00:40:55,956 Speaker 1: that is being articulated in the Adam's plan, and that 689 00:40:56,116 --> 00:40:59,516 Speaker 1: is it's attached to this concern about the mentally ill 690 00:41:00,516 --> 00:41:04,676 Speaker 1: being on the street and the crime problem, and so 691 00:41:04,796 --> 00:41:07,436 Speaker 1: I just keep thinking about Heidi, the way in which 692 00:41:08,196 --> 00:41:13,996 Speaker 1: there's a broad culture of punitiveness directed towards houseless people, 693 00:41:14,916 --> 00:41:18,716 Speaker 1: and they're essentially blamed for everything. They're blamed for disorder, 694 00:41:18,756 --> 00:41:21,716 Speaker 1: they're blamed for uncleanliness. In this case, they're blamed for 695 00:41:22,236 --> 00:41:24,756 Speaker 1: contributing to New York's rise in crime, which is not 696 00:41:24,916 --> 00:41:27,916 Speaker 1: really evident other than in these high profile news stories 697 00:41:27,956 --> 00:41:32,316 Speaker 1: where you know, someone pushes someone tragically onto the subway 698 00:41:32,316 --> 00:41:34,716 Speaker 1: track and a person dies. I get that that's not 699 00:41:34,796 --> 00:41:37,996 Speaker 1: anything to belittle, but to use those moments to then 700 00:41:38,036 --> 00:41:40,956 Speaker 1: say we're gon we're gonna sweep the streets of the 701 00:41:41,036 --> 00:41:44,876 Speaker 1: mentally ill who who are homeless, which is essentially collapsing 702 00:41:44,916 --> 00:41:48,756 Speaker 1: those two categories into one, strikes me as another version 703 00:41:48,796 --> 00:41:51,556 Speaker 1: of the story that you told about James Yep, that 704 00:41:51,636 --> 00:41:54,276 Speaker 1: only a crazy person could refuse, you know, could refuse 705 00:41:54,316 --> 00:41:56,756 Speaker 1: our services, when in fact we're not actually dealing with 706 00:41:56,796 --> 00:41:59,236 Speaker 1: the broader circumstances. It brought this person to our attention 707 00:41:59,236 --> 00:42:02,596 Speaker 1: in the first place, that's right, and very few people 708 00:42:03,036 --> 00:42:07,236 Speaker 1: who are experiencing houselessness have that sort of high level 709 00:42:07,316 --> 00:42:10,876 Speaker 1: psychotic illness, and so you sweep up a lot of 710 00:42:10,916 --> 00:42:14,916 Speaker 1: people who's to say who is mentally ill right, and 711 00:42:15,396 --> 00:42:18,956 Speaker 1: that the hospital system if you don't have an understanding 712 00:42:18,956 --> 00:42:22,356 Speaker 1: of that person. Let's say we do determine that they 713 00:42:22,396 --> 00:42:26,796 Speaker 1: have an acute psychosis that should be handled, Like where 714 00:42:26,796 --> 00:42:28,436 Speaker 1: are we going to put them? Do we have enough 715 00:42:28,596 --> 00:42:32,236 Speaker 1: psychiatric treatment facilities? Do we have interim housing that can 716 00:42:32,276 --> 00:42:35,556 Speaker 1: support them after their discharge from the hospital. Do we 717 00:42:35,676 --> 00:42:38,196 Speaker 1: have the supportive housing that they move into that can 718 00:42:38,236 --> 00:42:41,796 Speaker 1: continue to support their thriving as someone who's living with 719 00:42:41,876 --> 00:42:45,076 Speaker 1: mental illness. You have to build all those pieces. I 720 00:42:45,116 --> 00:42:47,116 Speaker 1: think if you're going to say we're doing this as 721 00:42:47,116 --> 00:42:50,436 Speaker 1: an act of beneficence, otherwise you're right. It is sort 722 00:42:50,476 --> 00:42:54,716 Speaker 1: of like very punitive in the end, very traumatizing, because 723 00:42:55,156 --> 00:42:57,796 Speaker 1: what happens is if you don't have those other pieces, 724 00:42:57,796 --> 00:43:00,356 Speaker 1: people end back up right out on the street, and 725 00:43:00,396 --> 00:43:05,196 Speaker 1: it just creates the circle of a violence. I mean, 726 00:43:05,276 --> 00:43:07,756 Speaker 1: hearing all these echoes of things like the criminal justice 727 00:43:07,756 --> 00:43:11,516 Speaker 1: system and the need just to show a response which 728 00:43:11,596 --> 00:43:15,556 Speaker 1: isn't actually solving the larger systemic problems, and all the 729 00:43:15,596 --> 00:43:20,516 Speaker 1: ways that we think about collective responsibility, and you know, 730 00:43:20,636 --> 00:43:24,236 Speaker 1: the problem of houselessness is often also this idea of 731 00:43:24,276 --> 00:43:27,276 Speaker 1: like making the city more livable. But when we say that, 732 00:43:27,316 --> 00:43:29,796 Speaker 1: we mean for whom, and we mean for people who 733 00:43:29,836 --> 00:43:34,116 Speaker 1: are not forced to sort of pass individuals who around 734 00:43:34,156 --> 00:43:36,796 Speaker 1: the street and so on, Heidi, Just as a way 735 00:43:36,836 --> 00:43:38,996 Speaker 1: to wrap up, what do you say to make people 736 00:43:39,036 --> 00:43:41,316 Speaker 1: know that this is we need to all invest in 737 00:43:41,356 --> 00:43:43,836 Speaker 1: this and sort of get behind this work. I think 738 00:43:43,836 --> 00:43:46,276 Speaker 1: it's for me. It's really important that it's a message 739 00:43:46,316 --> 00:43:50,316 Speaker 1: of hope and optimism. People feel these problems are intractable, 740 00:43:50,916 --> 00:43:53,356 Speaker 1: and it's really important to say we can solve this, 741 00:43:53,956 --> 00:43:56,636 Speaker 1: we know how to solve this, we just need to 742 00:43:56,676 --> 00:44:00,036 Speaker 1: do it, and people get stuck with that in that 743 00:44:00,116 --> 00:44:04,476 Speaker 1: paralysis of it's too big, it's too hard, And I'm like, 744 00:44:05,036 --> 00:44:07,716 Speaker 1: let's just start with changing the tenor of our conversation, 745 00:44:08,196 --> 00:44:10,116 Speaker 1: which is we can do this, we know how to 746 00:44:10,196 --> 00:44:12,956 Speaker 1: do this. We just need to make that commitment. That's 747 00:44:12,956 --> 00:44:16,076 Speaker 1: the most important thing to me. And it's so interesting. 748 00:44:17,076 --> 00:44:20,276 Speaker 1: The other day I was with my daughter and she 749 00:44:20,356 --> 00:44:23,836 Speaker 1: was with a friend and her parent and a person 750 00:44:24,116 --> 00:44:28,036 Speaker 1: experiencing houselessness that I've learned to know in my neighborhood, 751 00:44:28,036 --> 00:44:33,676 Speaker 1: who's this incredibly sweet, funny trans woman who has these 752 00:44:33,756 --> 00:44:37,636 Speaker 1: like outrageous outfits, and my daughter was wearing these like 753 00:44:38,156 --> 00:44:41,756 Speaker 1: platform rainbow converse shoes and Tatiana came up to her 754 00:44:41,756 --> 00:44:44,636 Speaker 1: and was like, oh girl, I love your shoes. And 755 00:44:44,996 --> 00:44:48,156 Speaker 1: you know, Layla was engaging with her, and I saw 756 00:44:48,196 --> 00:44:51,436 Speaker 1: the other parents sort of recoil and she texted me 757 00:44:51,476 --> 00:44:53,076 Speaker 1: and said, sorry, I had to leave, you know, I 758 00:44:53,116 --> 00:44:56,716 Speaker 1: just didn't feel safe. Oh wow. And I texted her 759 00:44:56,716 --> 00:45:00,236 Speaker 1: back and I said, Tatiana is such a lovely person. 760 00:45:00,516 --> 00:45:03,356 Speaker 1: I wish you had gotten to hear her story. And 761 00:45:03,436 --> 00:45:06,876 Speaker 1: she texted me back and she said, maybe next time 762 00:45:06,956 --> 00:45:10,236 Speaker 1: I'll stop and listen. That for me is a win. 763 00:45:10,476 --> 00:45:14,116 Speaker 1: How do we how do we amplify that? Wow, that 764 00:45:14,236 --> 00:45:20,076 Speaker 1: is both inspiring and depressing because he said maybe, But 765 00:45:20,236 --> 00:45:22,716 Speaker 1: you know, it's a start. We got to take that Khalil, 766 00:45:23,876 --> 00:45:26,996 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, we know how to solve this. That's 767 00:45:27,316 --> 00:45:30,196 Speaker 1: that's the place to start, Like, that's the conversation. Yeah, 768 00:45:30,196 --> 00:45:33,596 Speaker 1: like and then and then to show people how m Yeah. Well, 769 00:45:33,676 --> 00:45:37,196 Speaker 1: we're very inspired by what you do. We are grateful 770 00:45:37,236 --> 00:45:38,916 Speaker 1: for the time you took to be with us today, 771 00:45:39,036 --> 00:45:41,476 Speaker 1: and we'll do our part to share the good news 772 00:45:41,516 --> 00:45:44,236 Speaker 1: about the work that's going on in Los Angeles. And 773 00:45:44,236 --> 00:45:47,156 Speaker 1: hopefully it can spread across the nation. Thank you so much, 774 00:45:47,196 --> 00:45:51,076 Speaker 1: and we'll continue in La Luja. Thank you, Hidie, thank 775 00:45:51,116 --> 00:46:02,676 Speaker 1: you Okay, thank you Hidie. Take care. Wow, Khalil, I'm 776 00:46:02,716 --> 00:46:05,476 Speaker 1: thinking about the story you told me at the beginning 777 00:46:05,836 --> 00:46:08,836 Speaker 1: about a Ratha speaks outside the shan Burg Center and 778 00:46:08,876 --> 00:46:12,596 Speaker 1: horror them, and about the story that Heidi told us 779 00:46:12,636 --> 00:46:16,316 Speaker 1: at the end of the conversation about her interactions with Tatiana, 780 00:46:16,356 --> 00:46:19,036 Speaker 1: the trans woman in her neighborhood. That's right, And both 781 00:46:19,036 --> 00:46:21,516 Speaker 1: of those stories they seem so connected about taking this 782 00:46:21,676 --> 00:46:24,916 Speaker 1: leap of getting to know somebody, of humanizing somebody who 783 00:46:24,996 --> 00:46:27,236 Speaker 1: is houseless as we've learned to call it, that's right, 784 00:46:27,316 --> 00:46:31,156 Speaker 1: and then allowing them to tell their deeper story that 785 00:46:31,196 --> 00:46:33,996 Speaker 1: if we're going to think about any solutions, it has 786 00:46:34,036 --> 00:46:37,476 Speaker 1: to involve those people and their histories. That's right. It 787 00:46:37,516 --> 00:46:39,956 Speaker 1: can't just be something on the surface. Yeah, those feel 788 00:46:39,996 --> 00:46:42,636 Speaker 1: so connected, of like as book ends to this conversation. 789 00:46:42,876 --> 00:46:45,596 Speaker 1: Now they totally are. And I love you bringing up 790 00:46:45,596 --> 00:46:48,676 Speaker 1: Tatiana in the experience that Heidi shared with us, because 791 00:46:48,676 --> 00:46:51,356 Speaker 1: partly what she was saying is that we have to 792 00:46:51,396 --> 00:46:54,716 Speaker 1: connect with our own humanity by seeing the people who 793 00:46:54,756 --> 00:46:57,836 Speaker 1: are struggling in our mits, not because they have failed themselves, 794 00:46:57,836 --> 00:47:01,036 Speaker 1: but because we have failed them. That is the story 795 00:47:01,116 --> 00:47:03,916 Speaker 1: that Heidi shared with us about the people she works with, 796 00:47:03,996 --> 00:47:07,156 Speaker 1: the work that she's doing. And I gotta say, like, 797 00:47:07,756 --> 00:47:10,636 Speaker 1: that's a lesson that a taught me. But I also 798 00:47:10,716 --> 00:47:14,196 Speaker 1: have to say it's really hard because at the end 799 00:47:14,236 --> 00:47:17,436 Speaker 1: of the day, in the case of Arafa, I mean, 800 00:47:17,796 --> 00:47:19,516 Speaker 1: I consider her a friend to this day. But it 801 00:47:19,556 --> 00:47:22,316 Speaker 1: didn't end well. Oh you mean it didn't Andy, even 802 00:47:22,316 --> 00:47:24,916 Speaker 1: in that moment outside the Schaumburg. No, it didn't end 803 00:47:24,956 --> 00:47:27,676 Speaker 1: well because while she did leave, she came back and 804 00:47:27,756 --> 00:47:30,836 Speaker 1: she set up again, like several weeks later, and I 805 00:47:30,916 --> 00:47:32,676 Speaker 1: said to her, I was like, a Rafa, this isn't 806 00:47:32,716 --> 00:47:34,956 Speaker 1: the deal, and she's like, but I got nowhere else 807 00:47:34,996 --> 00:47:38,356 Speaker 1: to go. Yeah, And so I just want to acknowledge, 808 00:47:38,436 --> 00:47:41,156 Speaker 1: like we have to solve this problem in the deeply 809 00:47:41,196 --> 00:47:44,156 Speaker 1: systemic way in which we created the problem. And as 810 00:47:44,236 --> 00:47:46,876 Speaker 1: much as we want folks to lead with their own 811 00:47:46,956 --> 00:47:49,316 Speaker 1: voices and they should be at the table to do it, 812 00:47:49,316 --> 00:47:51,556 Speaker 1: it's not going to be solved one Tatiana and one 813 00:47:51,596 --> 00:47:54,596 Speaker 1: a rough at a time. Yeah, because your deal meant 814 00:47:54,596 --> 00:47:56,516 Speaker 1: nothing about where she was going to sleep that night 815 00:47:56,636 --> 00:48:03,316 Speaker 1: or those problems. That's correct, yeah, man, well love you, 816 00:48:03,716 --> 00:48:10,236 Speaker 1: love you too, man. Some of My Best Friends Are 817 00:48:10,396 --> 00:48:13,796 Speaker 1: is a production of Pushkin Industries. The show is written 818 00:48:13,876 --> 00:48:17,156 Speaker 1: and hosted by me Khalil, Gibron Muhammad and my best 819 00:48:17,156 --> 00:48:22,276 Speaker 1: friend sometimes Ben Austin. It's produced by Jonasanti and Lucy Sullivan. 820 00:48:22,756 --> 00:48:26,836 Speaker 1: Our editor is Sarah Knicks, our engineer is Amanda Kawang, 821 00:48:27,356 --> 00:48:32,796 Speaker 1: and our managing producer is Cottonstanza Gallardo. At Pushkin thanks 822 00:48:32,836 --> 00:48:37,716 Speaker 1: to Lee Tall, Mulad, Julia Barton, Heather Faine, Carly Migliori, 823 00:48:38,316 --> 00:48:43,436 Speaker 1: John Schnars, Greta Khne, and Jacob Weisberg. Our theme song, 824 00:48:43,956 --> 00:48:49,396 Speaker 1: Lil Lily is by fellow chicagoan the brilliant Avery R. Young. 825 00:48:49,956 --> 00:48:53,716 Speaker 1: It is from his album Tubman Okay. You definitely want 826 00:48:53,716 --> 00:48:56,236 Speaker 1: to check out more of his music at his website 827 00:48:56,636 --> 00:49:00,636 Speaker 1: Avery R. Young dot com. You can find Pushkin on 828 00:49:00,716 --> 00:49:04,436 Speaker 1: all social platforms at pushkin Pods, and you can sign 829 00:49:04,556 --> 00:49:08,516 Speaker 1: up for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. To find 830 00:49:08,556 --> 00:49:13,196 Speaker 1: more push in podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple 831 00:49:13,236 --> 00:49:16,436 Speaker 1: podcast or wherever you like to listen. Hey, and if 832 00:49:16,436 --> 00:49:18,716 Speaker 1: you like our show. Please give it a five star 833 00:49:18,876 --> 00:49:21,636 Speaker 1: rating and a review. And okay, even if you don't 834 00:49:21,716 --> 00:49:24,076 Speaker 1: like it, come on, give it a five star rating, 835 00:49:24,356 --> 00:49:27,156 Speaker 1: review it, and please tell all of your best friends 836 00:49:27,196 --> 00:49:28,756 Speaker 1: about it. Thank you so much,